1237: Light Pollution | Skeptical Sunday

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.
Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynne.

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Speaker 1 Today we're talking about light pollution. We've managed to foul up the air, poison the water, make the world so loud some people need therapy for noise.

Speaker 1 And apparently, we've even managed to pollute darkness itself. Even if you do look up from your phone, chances are you don't see much.
But is what you're not seeing also pollution?

Speaker 1 What has trading the stars for street lights done to us? Here to explain what lighting the world is doing in the shadows is writer and researcher Jessica Wynne.

Speaker 1 Hey, so if we ruined darkness, it feels like Earth... is just a planet that always has the lights on.

Speaker 2 Except you ever see those photos from space where like North Korea is dark and the rest of the world basically is totally dark right the one good thing right yeah like the one good thing is they're like hey we don't have light pollution it's like well there's a reason for that but how does one pollute nothing well that's the problem we've made sure darkness is not nothing so light pollution is excessive or misdirected artificial light basically light that goes where it's not needed, when it's not needed, and in a way that causes harm.

Speaker 2 So out of all the forms of pollution, light seems to get the least attention, probably because it just feels pretty normal.

Speaker 1 Yeah, nobody's complaining about a light bulb the way they do about a plastic straw choking a sea turtle.

Speaker 2 Right, right, but it's all around us, literally. Humans normalized it pretty quick.
I'm a blackout curtain person myself. And while it doesn't feel like that's fighting pollution, it actually is.

Speaker 2 When you look above cities and towns, the stars are gone. In their place is this eerie, vacant haze we hide from called skyglow.

Speaker 1 Skyglow sounds like a scented candle that you get at Target. Or maybe a vape flavor.

Speaker 2 It does, it does. But skyglow is the dome of light you see over cities when you're hundreds of miles away on the freeway or up in a plane.
And it's spreading fast.

Speaker 2 The night sky is brightening 7 to 10%

Speaker 2 every year because of human actions.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow, that's a lot. At that rate, the stars are just vanishing, right? Right before our eyes, essentially.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. If you live in any city today, you probably still haven't seen the Milky Way.

Speaker 1 Yeah, not just a candy bar, folks. That's an actual galaxy that's around us for many people don't know.

Speaker 2 Right. And seeing it in a truly dark sky is spectacular.
I'm fortunate enough to live close to the Mojave Desert, and it really is amazing.

Speaker 2 You look up, you can see satellites, watch the International Space Station fly by, and just really see the arms of the galaxy. It's humbling and it's pretty trippy.

Speaker 1 I have to admit, look, I don't live in a big city anymore. I live in the suburbs, but I live near big cities and I've lived in big cities for much of my life.

Speaker 1 Now I travel to places like the Sahara Desert and stuff, you know, or some crazy place in Bhutan, and you really can see the sky because there's no light pollution in the middle of the Sahara Desert, right?

Speaker 1 There's sand dunes. There's no cities anywhere near you, and there's really no light pollution.
And you can look up and you're like, Wow, is it cloudy and that stars reflecting?

Speaker 1 And someone will be like, That's literally the galaxy.

Speaker 2 That's just, yeah, that's just the universe.

Speaker 1 And you're like, Oh my god, the universe. I forgot that we're kind of like a part of that whole thing.
Usually, the most celestial object I see is the glow of a 7-Eleven sign somewhere.

Speaker 2 I think that's for a lot of people, and that loss is part of it.

Speaker 2 Light pollution has consequences for our health, for wildlife, wildlife, for energy, but it also robs us of something deeply human, our connection to the cosmos. It definitely has major effects.

Speaker 1 Because if we can't Instagram the Milky Way, does it really exist?

Speaker 2 Just in the Sahara, yeah. But I mean, this isn't just about stargazing.
So light pollution is a byproduct of progress.

Speaker 2 So conquering darkness with the invention of artificial light, it brought unintended consequences we're still uncovering. So historically, it was much dimmer.

Speaker 2 In the 1800s, not that long ago, you know, most towns actually turned off their gas lamps, especially around full moons, because the moonlight was enough.

Speaker 2 The jump from oil lamps and candles to electricity and LEDs happened quickly. Within a hundred years, the Milky Way has disappeared for 80% of Americans and one-third of the world.

Speaker 1 We don't think about it, but yeah, the light bulb isn't that old. We're pretty new to 24-hour light.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's really reshaped civilization. So, before the invention of the light bulb, and you may have come across this in classical literature, it's talked a lot about in the Canterbury Tales.

Speaker 2 People actually had what's called a second sleep.

Speaker 2 The majority of people went to bed right after sunset, but they woke up around midnight to have a snack, spend time with family, hang out with neighbors if they were close enough, maybe a little sex, and then go back to bed until dawn.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course they did. Nothing says family bonding like eating snacks in the middle of the night instead of shame tiptoeing to the fridge like we do now.

Speaker 1 It does make me feel better about my very occasional 2 a.m. peanut butter habit, but a little bang, a little wake and bang, and then back to sleep sounds good to me too.
I mean, maybe I'm

Speaker 2 doesn't enjoy that. Right.

Speaker 2 Those habits were real. It was our natural rhythm.
So people used Twilight as an ideal time to make some family memories.

Speaker 1 That's creepy. Maybe not always so family friendly.

Speaker 2 Well, you gotta make the families first, I guess. That's right.

Speaker 1 This is a weird side note, but like, you know, you read those old books and it's like.

Speaker 1 Three families lived in one room in London because everyone was poor and like was covered in coal dust all the time, basically.

Speaker 1 And you're like, wait, how did they have four adults or, you know six adults or whatever and then like eight kids in two rooms where did they get privacy to make those kids and then the uncomfortable truth starts to dawn on you that kids were just there while that was happening right and possibly the other adults too just like all right and there's no earbuds there's no air pods back then right so it's like hey don't you have to go for a walk and they're like it's two o'clock in the morning just get it over with and they pull out like their little pamphlet that they're reading in front of the candlelight fire and you just like i don't know pretend they can't see you and yeah willpower to ignore it maybe before artificial light we had way less shame i don't know maybe i mean imagine you live with like your sister and her husband and you're just like cool in the willy wonka baby yeah in the in like there's three kids around and you're just like yeah let's play jacks while uncle jack and aunt karen get after it I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's just so gross to think of it.

Speaker 2 I guess we're getting a cousin. Yeah.
Yep.

Speaker 1 All right. That sounded like that was was effective.
Okay. Anyway, light bulbs or something.

Speaker 2 So maybe this is where Shabe came from because Edison invented the electric light bulb in 1879. And that's when this rhythm started to change.
So by 1878, the first streetlight was installed in Paris.

Speaker 2 And then as automobile use grew, so did the number of lights around towns and cities.

Speaker 2 By the early 20th century, cities started building shorter, more numerous streetlights to accommodate all the cars. And that's the grid we still live under.

Speaker 2 It's functional, but it's incredibly wasteful. About 30% of all that outdoor, artificial light, it just spills into the sky.

Speaker 1 Really? A third of our lighting budget goes to illuminating empty space? Yeah, not a... That's so wasteful.

Speaker 2 I know. And with that, we lost the night sky itself.
So in most urban and even many rural areas, people can no longer see the stars the way previous generations could.

Speaker 2 The natural rhythms of night and darkness, they've just been eroded.

Speaker 1 Which is wild. People navigated with guidance from the sky.
Now we just can't get anywhere without GPS.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and for most of human history, stars weren't decoration. They were infrastructure.
Navigation.

Speaker 2 calendars, religions, entire civilizations organized around stories and mythologies based on the night sky. Now most Americans can't even see the Milky Way.

Speaker 2 You You know, we've just lost something we don't really have words for.

Speaker 1 Yeah, now the closest most of us get is a planetarium field trip or like a NASA screensaver, I guess. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I've actually heard Neil deGrasse Tyson say that the first time he went somewhere out of New York City and saw the sky, he said, oh, this reminds me of the planetarium. Right.

Speaker 2 It should be the other way around.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's kind of the point. Yeah, that's funny because I was thinking Neil deGrasse Tyson and the Hayden Planetarium.
Because when you go to a planetarium in, where is that?

Speaker 1 It's like in Harlem or something. Like you probably haven't ever seen any of those stars unless you've, your family, which lives in Harlem in New York, gets out of the city all the time.

Speaker 1 Because why would you have ever seen the stars? That's crazy to me.

Speaker 2 Sure. So you don't even know what you're missing.
During the 1994 Northridge earthquake, Los Angeles lost power. 100% of the lights went out.
So suddenly the night sky was visible.

Speaker 2 Thousands of Angelinos called 911 because they thought the city was being invaded by UFOs.

Speaker 1 One, please tell me that's not true. But two, what do you think the first,

Speaker 1 hey, I need the police here because aliens are coming down from the sky and our little pew pews are going to stop that from happening.

Speaker 2 They were probably just as scared.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 But it's true. The city went dark.
People looked up and there it was stars, galaxies, satellites, and that giant silvery cloud across the sky.

Speaker 2 That's That's the Milky Way, but they'd never seen it before. And there was just this collective freak out.

Speaker 1 That is both hilarious and horrifying. Like, help, there's a galaxy over my house.
Talk about some ignorant shit, man. Geez, that's really pathetic.

Speaker 2 It's just the perfect example of how light pollution has disrupted nature. And that was in the 90s.
Los Angeles is brighter today. The sky glow is so intense.

Speaker 2 You can see it from 200 miles away in an airplane. The stars stars are just completely washed out.

Speaker 1 Forget the city of angels, right? It's a city of LEDs.

Speaker 2 And after thousands of years, the night sky is abruptly drowned by all our street lights, billboards, parking lots, and stadiums.

Speaker 2 And they're all poorly designed lights, just spilling in every direction. So we break this light pollution into four types.
Skyglow, light trespass, glare, and clutter.

Speaker 2 So first we mentioned earlier skyglow. That's that bright dome of light you see over cities.
Like if you've ever taken a road trip, you can see the next city from hundreds of miles away.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the Vegas glow. It's like a welcome sign.
You can see it just shining.

Speaker 1 It's weird. It's like there's an illuminated cloud in the sky just from the light shooting up from the city.

Speaker 2 Right. And it's kind of exciting, you know? But so then there's also light trespass, and that's when light crosses property lines, like your neighbor's floodlight blasting through your bedroom window.

Speaker 2 Then there's glare. These are lights so bright they actually make it harder to see.
So think of oncoming high beam headlights at night.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm convinced newer car headlights are just designed to blind and kill people because they're crazy bright now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they're outrageous.

Speaker 2 And finally, there's clutter. That's the mess of competing and redundant clusters of lights like billboards, neon, and excessive street lamps.

Speaker 2 They're all fighting for your attention and creating visual chaos.

Speaker 1 So in other words, we invented four different ways to ruin the night sky. That's impressive.
Sky glow, trespass, glare, and clutter collect them all, I guess.

Speaker 2 Right, right. And together, they don't just erase the stars.
They affect human health.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was wondering about that, but how does it affect health? I mean, I know I need

Speaker 1 a night mask to sleep because even a little light bugs me. But what else does it do?

Speaker 2 So our bodies evolved with a natural day-night tempo, and light pollution disrupts our circadian rhythm, and that suppresses melatonin, which is the hormone that tells your body it's time to sleep.

Speaker 2 And that's linked to everything from sleep disorders and depression to obesity and heart disease.

Speaker 1 Edison didn't factor in insomnia. Did he invent that too, I suppose?

Speaker 2 Maybe in a way.

Speaker 2 I don't think he was necessarily considering how disruptive this would be to our sleep, but we really went nuts with artificial light right out of the gate before we considered any harm or realized what dramatic effects it would have.

Speaker 2 You know, it just disrupts our biological clocks. Before the Eiffel Tower was built, Paris wanted to build what they called a sun tower.

Speaker 2 And it was this tall building with lights and mirrors that would shine light over the entire city constantly.

Speaker 1 One, sounds like a prison yard, but two, that's just such a bad idea.

Speaker 2 Such a bad idea. They didn't go for it, but that's how infectious the light bulb invention was.

Speaker 2 Luckily, they went with the not as bright Eiffel, or Paris might have just melted under a cloak of artificial light.

Speaker 1 That would cause insanity and some amazing sun tints. Can you imagine the skin cancer rate in Paris if they had sunlight and moonlight 24-7 just being blasted down onto?

Speaker 1 That was clearly before they were like, hey, maybe you shouldn't get a beach load of sun every single day of your life with no protection.

Speaker 2 It's wild to think of, we're like bugs. We were just attracted to the bright, shiny light, you know?

Speaker 2 And it might explain what's happening today with how blue light messes with us, the kind of light from phones, tablets, LEDs. That's all especially bad on melatonin production.

Speaker 2 So our city might not be lit up, but we are shining lights in our faces regularly. Every time you look at your phone or computer.

Speaker 2 And that glow in your face at midnight tricks your brain brain into thinking it's daytime. That's why the no screens, an hour before bed rule, it's just not wellness advice.
It's biology.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but we're all being gaslit by our phones to stay awake. And I think that's why so many people complain about sleep.

Speaker 1 I guess I knew that because if I put my phone down and I'm like, okay, I'm done. And I put my night mask on and stuff, I fall asleep within minutes.

Speaker 1 But if I'm on my phone just waiting to go to sleep, I could be up for 90 minutes, two hours, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 Right. All of a sudden, time goes by.
And light pollution is not understood as the root of what's robbing us of sleep.

Speaker 2 It's not a coincidence that the rise in artificial light use corresponds with the rise of melatonin sales.

Speaker 2 It's not just sleep either. Studies show women living in the brightest neighborhoods have significantly higher rates of breast cancer.
The effects are proving to go well beyond fatigue.

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And now, back to Skeptical Sunday.

Speaker 1 So the invention of artificial light intended to make us more productive by lengthening our days, but it shortened our nights, so it's making us sad and exhausted. Progress!

Speaker 2 Yeah, right. And outdoor lighting affects entire neighborhoods.
We want to believe it's about safety, but that's a myth.

Speaker 1 Light does make the streets safer at night. Imagine walking around downtown somewhere.
There's no streetlights.

Speaker 2 Not really. You know, more light doesn't actually mean safer.
Glare makes roads and sidewalks more dangerous by creating deep shadows where people or animals hide.

Speaker 2 It also reduces visibility for drivers and pedestrians, as anyone who drives at night knows. But shielded, properly aimed lights, that improves visibility and safety.

Speaker 1 We all have seen a neighbor with a light where you're like, do you really need that? And does it have to be aimed at my front window?

Speaker 1 And like, you wonder if they're doing it on purpose or if they're just ignorantly thinking, like, I can see really far now that I put this light on the top of my garage.

Speaker 2 They're fooling themselves into feeling safe, I think.

Speaker 1 In the name of security, we're blinding ourselves, which is very on-brand.

Speaker 2 Right, right. And studies show there's no strong link between between brighter lighting and lower crime.
The key isn't more light, it's smarter light.

Speaker 2 Smarter light means shielded, downward facing, and only as bright as necessary.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you think about the crime rates, it would mean that out in the country, crime would be higher than in the cities. So it just logically doesn't add up.
I suppose.

Speaker 1 I mean, there could be multiple reasons for that. Like people know each other.
It's harder to get away when you rob a farmhouse because you got to drive 20 miles.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's all kinds of, who knows. Everyone before the 20th century looked up and saw heroes and monsters, right? You got the constellations.
I look up, I see a freaking Verizon billboard.

Speaker 1 So our nighttime environment changed quickly in the scheme of history, right? Because

Speaker 1 a blink at human history and everything is lit up and electrified.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And we're losing perspective.
Psychologists and writers describe natural darkness as contemplative, mysterious, even spiritual. Darkness slows us down.

Speaker 2 It gives us what Neil deGrasse Tyson calls the cosmic perspective.

Speaker 1 The atoms in your body are traceable, traceable to stars that have exploded across the galaxy and spread that enrichment into gas clouds that would later make star systems that have enough elements like carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen, elements of life, in order to make planets and life upon it.

Speaker 1 So for me, the deepest cosmic perspective there is is recognizing that not only are we living in this universe, the universe is living within us. You are so high right now.

Speaker 2 What he's saying there is, you know, without all that understanding, we gain from the night sky. We lose humility.
And then we call 911 when we see the sky we're all a part of.

Speaker 1 That explains LA. No stars in the sky, no humility in the people down here.

Speaker 2 Oh, come on. I'm down here.
That's true.

Speaker 1 Now, this makes sense. And I will say that if you get out to the night sky and it reminds you of a trip to the the planetarium, we're missing something about being human.

Speaker 2 Right. And there's another layer, like we mentioned.
It is about our sense of time.

Speaker 2 So before clocks and screens, for thousands and thousands of years, people told time and made schedules by the stars and moon.

Speaker 2 So when we lost that natural night cycle, we lost a piece of what humanity is built on.

Speaker 1 Is that lost forever? Or is there a way to get that relationship to the universe back somehow?

Speaker 2 I mean, what's amazing is how quickly our bodies jump back into that cycle. In my 20s, I lived outside a city for the first time, completely off the grid for about a year on the island of St.
Croix.

Speaker 2 Very little light pollution there. And syncing up with the night sky in all kinds of ways happened fast.
I mean, within the first month, I felt physical changes.

Speaker 1 Is that a euphemism for you synced up with all the other women on St. Croix?

Speaker 2 I don't really know. I'm telling you, every woman on St.
Croix gets her period at the full moon.

Speaker 1 Do they howl?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we howl and just get sent off to the woods and run around.

Speaker 1 Yeah, throw your bras on the beach and like start dancing around a fire.

Speaker 1 But there is something, like I said, you go to the Sahara Desert with this Wayfinders group that I'm in, or you go to Bhutan. Look, you're already in the middle of nowhere, right?

Speaker 1 You're in Bhutan or you're in Patagonia.

Speaker 1 But there's a couple, there's always a couple of nights where it's like, we are on a mountaintop and you can see everything and there's nothing up here but our tents and it's a six hour hike up this thing.

Speaker 1 And then you start looking at the stars and you do some activity and you're like, wow, this is like a spiritual experience that early humans probably had all the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we treat it as a vacation now.

Speaker 1 It's true, though. My shoulders drop.
I'm more relaxed. People are telling stories.

Speaker 1 You feel a little bit more like in the zone, even though you're exhausted and filthy and you're more mindful of everything. But I never really connected that to the problem of artificial light.

Speaker 1 That's certainly part of it, though, right?

Speaker 2 Of course.

Speaker 1 Because you see a flashlight and it's, it's like jarring, right? But no one's using their phone or anything. You're like, oh, God, they need a flashlight to pee.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 But the full moon, it's like magical. It really is.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And you understand how bright that moon is when you're out there.
Psychologists even describe natural darkness as essential for mental health.

Speaker 2 Studies show that disrupted sleep is linked to several mental health disorders like insomnia, depression, anxiety. We're never completely in the dark.
We just lose all that sense of space and time.

Speaker 2 So that's a lot of the reason people are so anxious today.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've noticed that at casinos in the middle of the night. So light pollution makes us disoriented in space and time.
It's like a sci-fi villain.

Speaker 2 And people have adapted to all this light pollution in extreme ways. Blackout curtains are the most common tool used to fight lights.

Speaker 1 People literally have to buy heavy drapes just to mimic what used to be normal darkness. I have those, by the way.
The blackout curtains, great purchase.

Speaker 2 Same. I don't think I could sleep without them.

Speaker 2 And blackout curtains, they were invented in 1939 during World War II because the Allied leaders believed city lights made it easier for bomber planes to hit their targets when the homes were illuminated.

Speaker 2 So Britain enforced blackout regulations. After the war, these evolved into what households use today for sleep and privacy.

Speaker 1 And a whole industry now sells us back the night. Big curtain is thriving.
Thanks a lot, Hitler.

Speaker 1 I mean, okay, this might not make the top five biggest reasons to dislike Hitler, but the point stands, I guess.

Speaker 2 It's probably in the top 10, though.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure. Not so true.

Speaker 1 Czechoslovakia might object to this particular issue.

Speaker 2 Something to add to the list, at least. But yeah, light blocking products are a huge market.
In 2023, the global market reached over $40 billion and it's expanding rapidly.

Speaker 2 Increased screen time and health concerns, that drives the wellness community into the market, while energy efficiency and urban planning drives governments into it.

Speaker 2 So it includes everything from sleep masks, double blinds, tinted windows, that filtered tape you can buy for your screens.

Speaker 2 And then there's specialized industrial and medical light blocking technology, even to blue light blocking glasses.

Speaker 2 The global market for blue light blocking glasses alone was estimated at almost $3 billion in 2024, and it's projected to reach $6 billion by 2034.

Speaker 1 That's wild. Imagine explaining to somebody in the 1800s that we lit up the entire planet so intensely that we now buy special glasses to filter out the lights that we made.

Speaker 2 Would not compute, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love blue blockers. Like I said, I've been wearing them for years.
I just figured it was kind of like a dorky biohacker thing,

Speaker 1 but they do help me sleep at night and they help me get off my phone because I'll wear these in the evening and then it's like, okay, I'm getting tired.

Speaker 1 And I go to bed and then maybe I'm doing Duolingo or something on my phone. And I'm just like, I can't keep my eyes open with these things on.
I take them off, put my phone away. and go to sleep.

Speaker 1 If I don't wear them, like I go on a trip and I forget them or I just, I'm too lazy and then they're in the kitchen and I'm already in bed and the bed's warm.

Speaker 1 So then it's like, oh, and I'm looking at my phone and it's like two hours goes by and I'm like, I should go to sleep, but but I'm not tired. It's one o'clock in the morning or something.

Speaker 1 Just like, what happened? And the answer is no blue blockers. I mean, it really makes a huge difference.

Speaker 2 Do they look cool?

Speaker 1 I've got a brand that I like called Swanne's that my friend James Swanwick came up with. And I'll link to it in the show notes.
It's swanwicksleep.com.

Speaker 1 It's not a sponsor or anything, but he makes them and they don't look dorky because the original ones, they are kind of like these dorky, weird, wrap-around-y looking goofball things that if you wore them, people would be like, what's up, X-Men?

Speaker 1 What are you doing here with that? But But these just look like, oh, you have daytime glasses that have slightly yellow or orange lenses? What's that all about? Those are cool.

Speaker 2 You're a fashionable biohacker. That's right.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 But yet, those glasses are fighting pollution. They're based on the same idea as light pollution filters used in astronomy and astrophotography.
So astronomers, they have to use filters.

Speaker 2 to cut out certain wavelengths given off by mercury vapor and LED lighting so they can actually see the stars. The mercury vapor is what gives off those amber tones.

Speaker 2 So filters target and remove reddish wavelengths and that that happens pretty easily.

Speaker 1 I see. So that's different than the LED filters.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's trickier. LEDs cover most of the spectrum of light, so it's hard to filter them without dimming just everything.

Speaker 2 Some older filters even blocked high-pressure sodium light, which just made everything look pitch black. They weren't exactly safe for walking around, but the technology has advanced.

Speaker 2 So you can walk around with yours on, right?

Speaker 1 What? My blue blockers? Yes. Yeah, of course.
They're just glasses.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, in my head, I'm thinking it's just.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, it's not a helmet that has wires attached to the back. It's basically just night shift mode for your eyes.
Relatively simple device. The lenses are high quality.

Speaker 1 You want to get high quality because you don't want distortion. You don't want to get a headache.
It's just, it's good for screen time. It's good for improving my my sleep.
That's really it.

Speaker 1 It's, I have tons of these things.

Speaker 2 I'm all in. I'm all in.
I'm getting them. But health insurance should cover blue blockers for everyone at this point.
Yeah. Another fix, though, is just in better light design.

Speaker 2 You know, we all shuffle around dodging light pollution. People rearrange their furniture away from windows when new intrusive lights or signs are installed in their neighborhood.

Speaker 2 It's like the classic Seinfeld episode when the red neon Kenny Rogers roasters sign blasts blasts into Kramer's apartment.

Speaker 2 There are over 60 chapters of the International Dark Sky Association across the country.

Speaker 2 They won't shoot out bulbs, but they do lobby city councils and write ordinances when the lights outside homes are unbearable.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's kind of weak that they don't shoot out the bulbs, but what do I? I don't make the rules, I suppose. Maybe they want to.

Speaker 1 not get arrested, but nothing will radicalize you faster than a Walmart parking lot lamp just blasting into your apartment or your room.

Speaker 2 It's true. But some people do move away from cities just to find darkness.

Speaker 2 And if you're stuck in the city, a lot of windows are now bricked up in homes because people just couldn't handle the light outside.

Speaker 1 So there are not only climate refugees, there are light refugees. Realtors must love this.

Speaker 1 Great kitchen, lovely yard. Ignore the neighbor's death ray across the street.
Oh, that thing's never on. I don't know what even that's strange.
Maybe living in a cave will come back in style.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'd love a cave. Cool, dark, uninviting.
That's my vibe. But instead, buildings are being designed with just fewer windows, which is a bummer of a solution.

Speaker 2 But darkness has even become a luxury product. There are dark sky hotels where people pay hundreds of dollars a night for the chance to see stars.
Resorts advertise natural darkness as an amenity.

Speaker 2 I go to one in Northern California at least once a year. Shout out to Wilbur Hot Springs up in Williams.
They have no lights, no Wi-Fi, no radio waves. 24 hours there feels like a week's vacation.

Speaker 1 That sounds terrific, but it's wild that we have commodified nighttime. What an evolutionary circle when we are redoing architecture to cope with street lamps.

Speaker 1 But I can pay hundreds of dollars a night for a vacation package. whose selling point is the sky.
I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 There are glass igloos scattered around Finland, Norway, and Sweden that are on my bucket list. There's no artificial light, and you're just under the northern lights.
That has to be wild.

Speaker 1 I've seen those. They look incredible.
I keep imagining time traveling back 150 years and explaining that in the future, people pay to look up at the sky. The sky didn't change.
We just erased it.

Speaker 1 That's so crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, or imagine going back and describing a projector that throws the night sky on your walls. You can buy for 50 bucks.
That would not compute.

Speaker 2 And the impacts go way beyond humans. There's a whole field called sensory ecology that studies how artificial light affects animals.
Sea turtles, fireflies, migrating birds.

Speaker 2 They're all disoriented by artificial light and some are killed.

Speaker 1 Wow. How did lights actually kill birds?

Speaker 2 So migrating birds travel at night and they're guided by stars. Bright city lights lure them off course and millions die every year crashing into buildings or some other horrible end.

Speaker 2 An unintended effect of the 9-11 Tribute in Light memorial beams in New York City is that they trap thousands of birds annually and a lot of them die. They get confused.

Speaker 2 They circle the lights for so long that they can eventually just drop from exhaustion.

Speaker 2 It's so bad that ornithologists are introducing ways to save birds every 9-11 because the memorial coincides with the height of migration season.

Speaker 2 Same with the Luxor in Vegas, same with lighthouses and a lot of offshore rigging locations. There are just mountains of evidence that show beams of light mess up migratory birds.

Speaker 1 So our tribute to the tragedy is killing thousands of birds. That is really dark and unfortunate.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's not just giant light beams. Cities keep approving decorative lighting and spotlights that are purely aesthetic.
The worst is in Portland, Oregon. Sorry, Portland.

Speaker 2 I know you're going through it, but where the Oaks amusement park was unfortunately built is next to a bird sanctuary and migratory bird park.

Speaker 2 And this year, they put up a new 135-foot-tall ride that will shoot up eight LED spotlights into the sky because it looks cool.

Speaker 2 The city has an ordinance that lights should be downward, but the park filed an exemption and the city was like, oh cool, approved. But these lights have no safety purpose.
They're purely aesthetic.

Speaker 2 So it sets a precedent that recreational ambiance outweighs conservation. As of the summer of 2025, it was still being protested.

Speaker 2 Recently, the city said the park will minimize but not eliminate their light pollution. So it's a strange thing to insist that decorative lights are more important than birds.

Speaker 1 Yeah, nothing says family fun like killing thousands of migrating wildlife. Man, Portland, come on, man.
Hey, we want to shoot lights into the sky and kill tons of endangered birds. Cool.

Speaker 1 Also, fentanyl, totally fine. Shoot it up anywhere and everywhere.
I mean, I don't know. Maybe some laws are okay to enforce.
Maybe look into that, guys.

Speaker 2 No. And the frustrating part is it's fixable, right? Again, just shield the lights, aim them down, use warmer tones.
We don't have to be choosing between safety and stars.

Speaker 2 And it's not just our airborne friends either. Sea turtle hatchlings once followed moonlight to the ocean.

Speaker 2 Now they often get drawn inland by artificial lights and crawl toward parking lots or neighborhoods and die.

Speaker 1 I'm so modern, I rarely think of the moon as a light source.

Speaker 2 I think for most of us. Yeah.
But diminishing moonlight with artificial light is... hindering our amphibian friends too, like frogs and toads.
It disrupts their mating habits.

Speaker 2 You know, they rely on darkness to mate.

Speaker 1 Can hardly blame them. I think I would do it with the lights off too, if I was a frog.

Speaker 2 I think I've been there with some guys who are part frog because I turn the lights off sometimes, but too much light and their mating calls go unanswered. Same with insects.

Speaker 2 You know, we've all seen bugs drawn to light bulbs. That's actually doing more damage than we think.

Speaker 2 It disrupts firefly mating signals, and they literally can't find dates because their bioluminescent signals get drowned out.

Speaker 2 And those moths swarming bulbs, that's stolen energy from an ecosystem where they should be pollinating or otherwise stuck in a web as food. So insect populations have plummeted in the last 20 years.

Speaker 2 I had to read this seriously a thousand times when I was writing this because it's so hard to believe, but the research shows that our insect population has reduced by 80%

Speaker 2 since the dawn of artificial light. And according to the Night Sky Resource Center, light pollution is the leading cause of that.

Speaker 1 So artificial light is cockblocking the entire animal kingdom. Yikes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, big time. And not just bugs and frogs.
Nocturnal mammals like bats, raccoons, even cats have their natural clocks disrupted by light pollution.

Speaker 2 So foraging patterns, mating rituals, and other survival behavior, it's all thrown off. And coastal light pollution affects marine ecosystems too.

Speaker 2 Artificial light disrupts plankton behavior, which throws off the entire food chain. So fish that rely on darkness for predator avoidance, they get confused and breeding cycles get disrupted.

Speaker 1 I've seen fishing boats that use light to attract animals as well. You ever seen that? It's crazy intense.
It's super bright. I think they're fishing for some kind of squid or something.

Speaker 2 out there. And it's amazing how many of them come towards the light because what that light is doing is confusing them into thinking they're going to a feeding area.

Speaker 2 In nature, it's known as positive phototaxis. In fishing, it's known as a catch, I guess.

Speaker 1 The cosmic perspective is about feeling small in a vast universe. Hard to do when your neighbor's floodlight could signal aircraft.
Let's take a brief, sponsored look at the bright side.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 Now, for the rest of Skeptical Sunday,

Speaker 1 we've managed to even pollute the ocean with light as if all the trash, chemicals, microplastics weren't enough from boats and from the shore. That's kind of impressive in the worst way possible.

Speaker 2 I know. And here's something people don't realize: light pollution hits poorer communities hardest.
So, lower-income neighborhoods, they often get the cheapest, worst fixtures installed.

Speaker 2 So unshielded, blinding lights that blast everywhere because the city went with the lowest bidder.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, wealthier neighborhoods can afford to lobby for better lighting or even pay for upgrades themselves.

Speaker 1 So not only do poorer communities deal with more pollution in general, they also get blinded by their own streetlights.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And those communities often lack the resources to push back.
They don't have dark sky advocacy groups or lawyers to fight bad lighting ordinances.

Speaker 2 So they're stuck with glaring lights that disrupt sleep, waste energy, and just create more problems than they solve.

Speaker 1 Oh good. We found a way to make inequality visible from space.

Speaker 2 Pretty much. And we're losing more than just the view.
So professional astronomers are struggling. Major observatories built decades ago in once dark locations are now surrounded by sky glow.

Speaker 2 The Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles is a big advocate for light pollution awareness. The Stord Observatory in Tucson works really hard to keep its skies dark.

Speaker 2 And other observatories have relocated, sometimes to entirely different countries, just to escape light.

Speaker 1 Scientists are literally fleeing their own observatories. That's kind of bleak.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 The Mount Wilson Observatory near LA. It's where Edwin Hubble discovered the expansion of the universe, one of the most important discoveries in human history.

Speaker 2 It's now barely usable because of LA's skyglow.

Speaker 2 You know, new telescopes are being built in places like Chile's Atacama Desert and the mountaintops of Hawaii, but even those are at risk as development creeps in.

Speaker 1 So we might end up knowing less about the universe because we're addicted to artificial light and we can't figure out how to aim our lights downwards. That's very on-brand and very frustrating.

Speaker 2 I know, it really is. We're literally dimming our understanding of the cosmos.

Speaker 1 But artificial light is a cheap way to keep people awake and productive, right? Is there truth to that at least? Like, are we getting more done? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not cheap, though. Okay.
The International Dark Sky Association estimates at least a third of all outdoor lighting is wasted. That's over $2 billion a year in the U.S.
alone.

Speaker 2 And all that wasted energy is the CO2 equivalent of nearly 10 million cars. So we're paying extra to ruin our sleep, confuse wildlife, and just erase the stars.
Great.

Speaker 1 So we're footing the bill for our own cosmic lobotomy. Should we move out to the countryside? Is that the solution?

Speaker 2 I mean, unfortunately, light pollution isn't just a city problem. It spreads for hundreds of miles.
Even national parks aren't immune.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. Is this really becoming a problem everywhere?

Speaker 2 I mean, it is. And it's not just in the U.S.
Light pollution maps show it all over the world. I recommend looking them up because it really shows you how intense the problem is.

Speaker 2 In Scotland, Galloway Forest Park, which is the largest forest in the UK, they earned dark sky status in 2009, but recently a company proposed an energy park right next to it with nine wind turbines, each taller than the Empire State Building.

Speaker 2 And then each of those would have a red aircraft warning light blinking on top. Locals, they don't have much say in the plans, and those wind turbine lights are problematic.

Speaker 2 And there's always pushback and debates about how often they should blink, the best color temperature. Is there a way they can be replaced by radar?

Speaker 1 That's tricky. You need those lights for flight safety.

Speaker 2 Of course you do. The FAA cares more about air safety than light pollution, understandably.
But some systems can now use radar, so lights only turn on when planes approach.

Speaker 2 The details get debated heavily, and some cities are trying. Pittsburgh recently passed a dark sky ordinance in 2021, but implementation is messy.

Speaker 2 It doesn't cover lights on bridges, which, as you know, Pittsburgh is basically made up of bridges. So neighborhoods are fighting over brightness settings.
Is it too bright? Is it too dim?

Speaker 2 No one agrees. I mean, how do you handle one neighbor thinking it's too bright and the person across the street thinks it's too dark? It's really complicated.

Speaker 1 There needs to be some lighting standards, I guess. I don't know.

Speaker 2 You'd think, but brightness and lumen levels vary from town to town, block to block, door to door even. And cities install lights at maximum brightness usually.

Speaker 2 And then once they're up, it's almost impossible to dim them later. Transportation departments often make those calls with little to no community input.

Speaker 2 And I think this is the heart of a lot of local problems. It just comes down to a bad policy process.

Speaker 1 I'm sure that light pollution experts aren't asked to get involved with city planning. Actually, I don't know, are they?

Speaker 2 It doesn't seem like it.

Speaker 1 It seems like a bureaucratic issue, not a technical issue. It's not like we can't do it.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. And some communities do have ordinances on the books, but enforcement is weak.
There was a lawsuit brought in Connecticut this year.

Speaker 2 because they had an ordinance saying that no state property should have lights on between 11 p.m. and 6 p.m.

Speaker 2 But it turns out the courthouse itself was not abiding and just keeping the lights on all night.

Speaker 2 So instead of letting the building go dark after hours, the state courthouse just changed the ordinance to allow all lights on any state property to be deemed necessary. Jeez.

Speaker 2 It's an ongoing case now.

Speaker 1 So the courthouse is not complying with the law. Right.
I don't understand why it's such a hard thing for the state properties to comply.

Speaker 1 The case is almost hilarious because it's the actual courthouse. It's like, we're not following policy.
We need some. And then, yeah, just like, what do you do about that?

Speaker 2 I don't know. Are they just that proud of the bill? I don't know what the rationale is, but the courts are rewriting their own rules so they can keep the lights blazing all night.

Speaker 2 I don't think regulators understand or maybe they just don't care how problematic light pollution is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Most don't know the wasted energy and increased operational costs for communities and businesses it causes. So in the policy world, there's a truism that most policies fail at the enforcement level.

Speaker 2 So it's not that light pollution policy isn't there. It's just written poorly and then it's not implemented.
So it shouldn't be hard. Just turn off the lights.

Speaker 1 Yeah, hell, make them automatic. Right.
I swear my parents had light timers in the 80s.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you don't really see those anymore, huh?

Speaker 1 I mean, you don't need them. They're all connected to your phone and whatnot.
I mean, lighting issues are more litigious than I realized.

Speaker 1 Or maybe electricity is just so cheap, it's like, eh, screw it, leave it on all night. I don't care.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And lighting issues are probably more common than people think. So in LA, Tesla very recently built a diner.

Speaker 1 Like a restaurant for Tesla restaurants. Oh, kidokey.

Speaker 2 During construction, and this is right in the middle of the city. It's not off the beaten path or anything.
Okay.

Speaker 2 But during construction, the security lighting was aimed at the neighboring residences so intensely, the locals tried to take action.

Speaker 2 One lady said, quote, the light flashing is so bright into the apartments that even with curtains closed, it feels like you're at the world's worst rave.

Speaker 1 Because that's what we need, the Tesla diner.

Speaker 2 That's what it's called, by the way. You could get a Tesla burger in a Cybertruck box.
Oh, man. It's been a nighttime nightmare after construction two, because it's open 24 hours.

Speaker 2 And since it opened, there's two giant, they're huge LED screens that show movies. And it also has this thick, bright ribbon light around the roof's facade.
And it just lights up the entire block.

Speaker 2 Complaints have been pouring in. I mean, there's an apartment building just so close to it.
It's like Kramer's apartment. It has to be infuriating.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Would you like fries with your insomnia? Why? California? That's so crazy.

Speaker 2 I know. Well, in 2023, Gavin Newsom vetoed a responsible lighting bill for government buildings.
I can't find a reason why beyond aesthetics.

Speaker 2 So politicians just don't grasp that some of this is instantly solvable. Light pollution is one of the rare environmental problems that doesn't need a 30-year recovery plan or a global summit.

Speaker 2 We don't have to be so afraid of the dark.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I tell that to my kids. All right, so let's talk about the future.
Where does this go? Are we going to start putting LED billboards in space?

Speaker 2 Oh, man, don't give anyone ideas, but you're actually not far off. So there are already proposals to use satellites for advertising, literally beaming ads from orbit.

Speaker 2 Companies have talked about projecting logos onto the night sky using satellite constellations or laser technology. I guess think about the Batman signal.

Speaker 2 The science community refers to it as satellite pollution.

Speaker 1 So you're telling me that we're going to turn the cosmos into Times Square. No, thank you.

Speaker 2 I know, I know. And satellite pollution, it's already a problem.

Speaker 2 Starlink and other mega corporations are adding thousands of satellites that reflect sunlight and create streaks across telescope images.

Speaker 2 So astronomers are furious because these satellites are pretty much photobombing their observations of distant galaxies.

Speaker 2 And if current trends continue, If every city keeps getting brighter seven to 10% per year, within a generation, natural darkness will only exist in the most remote locations.

Speaker 2 Like the night sky will be functionally extinct for most of humanity.

Speaker 1 Extinct. So we're driving darkness extinct like it's a species.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's not hyperbole. And once kids grow up never seeing stars, never experiencing true darkness, they're losing something fundamental about being human.

Speaker 2 There's a sense of wonder, that humility we talked about, the perspective, it just all disappears.

Speaker 1 So you're saying the solution to this existential crisis is literally flicking a light switch though. This is where you're supposed to give us hope, right?

Speaker 1 Because so far I've learned that we've turned the Milky Way galaxy into a screensaver and people are bricking up windows like medieval monks.

Speaker 2 Light pollution is here to stay, but cities can adopt smart lighting and see immediate results. It can be simple.

Speaker 2 Just point the lights down, use fully shielded fixtures, use warmer bulbs instead of harsh blue LEDs, and simply turn off the lights when you don't need them.

Speaker 2 Communities that have adopted these changes, they see immediate results.

Speaker 1 Okay, so changing bulbs is a good start at the personal level.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's better than nothing. Motion sensors, light curfews, and low-intensity lights are effective.

Speaker 2 And there's lights out programs in places like Chicago and other cities enforcing dimming skyscraper lights during migration season to save birds.

Speaker 2 Other places have dark sky tourism, like in central Idaho's dark sky reserves, whose mission is to bring back the Milky Way.

Speaker 1 That's encouraging that there's at least some awareness there.

Speaker 2 Definitely, there's some awareness, and there's momentum behind these dark sky movements.

Speaker 2 Cities, parks, even businesses are starting to realize that smarter lighting saves money and it makes streets safer. So grassroots groups are pushing these ordinances.

Speaker 2 Like in New Jersey, there's a dark sky advocacy group that was able to get a light pollution ordinance passed in June of 2025. And apparently Philadelphia has its own moonmen.

Speaker 2 There are these two brothers who set up telescopes on busy and touristy streets. So strangers can look up and they're spreading awareness.
They call it sidewalk astronomy.

Speaker 1 That is really cool. Free stargazing between a cheesesteak joint and a dive bar.

Speaker 2 I know. They're hilarious, actually.
If you want to look at their videos on Instagram or something, but they started with thrift store binoculars and now they have real telescopes.

Speaker 2 And their whole mission is simple, to reconnect people in the city with the night sky. So yeah, awareness exists and it seems to be on the rise.

Speaker 2 And action started way back in 2001 when Flagstaff, Arizona became the first city in the world. to be designated an international dark sky city after changing every streetlight to amber LEDs.

Speaker 2 And the city still strictly regulates lighting to combat light pollution.

Speaker 1 They can also go for Pyongyang, North Korea, where they just turn off the electricity at 9 p.m.

Speaker 2 every night. Well, they don't have the Grand Canyon.

Speaker 1 That's true. That is true.
So does prevention seem to be the smartest form of action a town can take when it comes to this kind of thing?

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. I mean, places can prevent light from being introduced into pristine natural environments and showing policymakers how it saves money that can be really effective.

Speaker 2 I don't think people know there are billions of dollars wasted on electricity every year that could be cut just by reducing unnecessary lighting.

Speaker 1 Light pollution kind of needs better PR. Right.
Or light, the anti-light pollution needs better PR if we want more people to know what the stars are. Right.

Speaker 2 Smarter lights, better policies, more awareness. I mean, what if instead of fireworks on holidays, there's days that turn out all the lights for the the night, like power outage day or something.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You might run into some ethical pushback there from hospitals, but I get the sentiment. Instead of putting up Christmas lights, just turn out every light.

Speaker 1 I remember there was something called like Earth Hour. Maybe they still see that somewhere.
The WWF, the wildlife fund. They schedule an hour.
Sorry, not the wrestling.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Not the, yeah. An hour.
It's an hour everyone's supposed to turn out the lights.

Speaker 2 That would be so fun. Like, let's play 1800s, kids.

Speaker 2 I haven't experienced that, but I can't wait to look into it.

Speaker 1 Let's play 1800s and everybody go in one room and while Aunt Marge and Uncle Tom have sex in the corner. Well, we don't have to do everything like the 1800s.

Speaker 1 Yes, we smear coal dust on your face and burn some oil.

Speaker 1 Yes, syphilis.

Speaker 2 But we did trade the mystery of the night for 24-7 glare without considering these environmental and societal consequences.

Speaker 2 It's less about policy and more about how light has transformed our human experience, both positively and negatively. So dark sky doesn't mean dark ground.

Speaker 2 It means these smarter, healthier lights that save money, protect nature, and give us the stars back. So darkness is not danger.
It's balance.

Speaker 2 And society needs to reconsider how we use artificial light. advocating for more mindful and efficient lighting practices that preserve the night sky and natural cycles.

Speaker 2 There really is a mindfulness aspect to all of this. And as the sky diminishes, we forget how infinitesimal we are in the universe.
And at the same time, how connected we are.

Speaker 2 So we just, we need all that.

Speaker 1 We need to reclaim the stars, not just for science, but for wonder. So, yeah, tonight, everybody, go outside, look up, and if you can't see the stars, turn something off.
Just not this podcast.

Speaker 1 Well, it's rare that an environmental crisis comes with an actual off switch. So thanks for letting us up, Jessica.
Thanks to you all for listening.

Speaker 1 Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me, Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

Speaker 1 I'm at JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.
And you can find Jessica Wynn on her sub stacks, Between the Lines, and Where Shadows Linger.

Speaker 1 And we'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

Speaker 1 My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tada Sedlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Speaker 1 Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm certainly not your lawyer.

Speaker 1 Of course, we try to get all these episodes as right as we can, but not everything is gospel, even if it is fact-checked.

Speaker 1 So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being. Remember, we rise by lifting others.
Share the show with those you love.

Speaker 1 If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 Here's a sample of my interview with astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Speaker 1 We talk about why an interest in science serves every field of expertise from law to art, what our education should ideally train us for. Here's a quick look inside.

Speaker 1 Walt Whitman, when I heard the learned astronomer, when the proofs, the figures were ranged in columns before me, when I was shown the charts and diagrams to add, divide, and measure them.

Speaker 1 When I, sitting, heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture room. How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick.

Speaker 1 Till, rising and gliding out, I wandered off by myself into the mystical, moist night air, and from time to time, looked up in perfect silence at the stars.

Speaker 1 It's the same curiosity you have as a kid, but I just have it as an adult. I've had it since childhood.
You don't have to maintain it, you just have to make sure nothing interferes with it.

Speaker 1 So the counterpart to this would be, oh, sir, literate one, why ruin what something looks like by describing it with words when I can see it fully with my eyes? Your words just get in the way.

Speaker 1 I'd rather my mind float freely as I gaze upon something of interest than have the writer step in between me and it and interpose his or her own interpretation.

Speaker 1 You don't know the thoughts that you're not having.

Speaker 1 What keeps me awake is wondering what questions I don't yet know to ask because they would only become available to me after we discover what dark matter and dark energy is.

Speaker 1 Because think about it, the fact that we even know how to ask that question, that's almost half the way there. But I want to know the question that I can't know yet.

Speaker 1 What is the profound level of ignorance that will manifest after we answer the profound questions we've been smart enough to pose thus far?

Speaker 1 For more, including how science denial has gained a global foothold, what it'll take for the U.S.

Speaker 1 to get to Mars before China, and why it's dangerous for people to claim the Earth is flat, check out episode 327 of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

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