New Research: The Surprising Psychology Behind the Secrets Everyone Keeps & What Your Secrets Say About You

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Speaker 1 i am so glad you tuned in today because i am on the edge of my seat right now because of the conversation we're going to have i have been talking about this topic with my friends and my family for a long time but i wanted to wait until i found the perfect expert before you and i broach this subject.

Speaker 1 So prepare yourself because right now, you and I are going to discuss something that we've never spoken about. The topic? Secrets.

Speaker 1 Why you keep them and how the secrets that you hold are directly impacting your self-esteem, your relationships, your health, and how they're holding you back from living the life you deserve.

Speaker 1 My mission today is simple. I want to help you free yourself of the burden of carrying your secrets and your family's secrets.
Dr.

Speaker 1 Michael Slepian is a best-selling author, psychologist, and associate professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia Business School and a visiting scholar at Stanford. According to Dr.

Speaker 1 Slepian's 10-year research study, you probably have 13 secrets. No, not probably, you do.
Five of which you've never told anyone. And you're not alone.
We all have secrets.

Speaker 1 In fact, I asked 5 million of my Instagram followers to share their secrets, and boy, oh boy, they sure did.

Speaker 1 Just wait until you hear what fellow listeners of this podcast are struggling with in secret. And that's why I wanted to talk about it, because keeping the secret, it's the easy part.

Speaker 1 The hard part is forcing yourself to live with it. Let's change that.
Please help me welcome Dr. Michael Slepian to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 Of course. I am so excited about this.
You You were inspired to write your book, The Secret Life of Secrets, because of a secret in your own life.

Speaker 1 Tell us that story. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So this story takes place 10 years ago, and I was presenting this new research on secrecy as part of a job interview at Columbia.

Speaker 2 And after sort of a tough day of having meeting after meeting after meeting, having dinner with with the people who become my future colleagues and drinks and all the way late into the night around midnight, I get a call from my dad.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, that's so weird.

Speaker 2 He wouldn't normally call me at this hour. But I was actually just still having my drinks with these folks who I was interviewing with.
And then he called again.

Speaker 2 And I thought, oh, no, something bad has happened.

Speaker 2 There must be like a death in the family or something. And so I call him back and he says, Michael, I need to tell you something.

Speaker 2 Maybe you could sit down for this.

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 2 I'm calling to tell you that I'm not biologically able to have children.

Speaker 2 He was calling to tell me that he was not my biological father and this was a secret that they had been keeping from me and my younger brother and then surprise, he's actually my half-brother born from a different donor.

Speaker 2 And they told me this was a secret they planned on never telling us ever.

Speaker 2 And that was of course

Speaker 2 shocking.

Speaker 2 It wasn't the truth that was sort of shifting the ground under my feet. It wasn't learning that fact.
I quickly thought, this is okay. I'm okay with this.

Speaker 2 This is the reality. And, you know, this doesn't change anything between us.
But why are you telling me this? And why now? And why didn't you tell me sooner?

Speaker 2 It was the secrecy that was harder to understand.

Speaker 1 What was his answer for why then?

Speaker 2 So essentially what had happened was

Speaker 2 A couple of days before my brother found out.

Speaker 2 My mom started telling him a story about being in an argument with our grandfather, her father. And my brother was like, that's so weird.

Speaker 2 I've never heard of you ever having an argument with your dad ever. Like, what were you arguing about? And she said, oh, I can't tell you.
And he's like, what? He's like,

Speaker 2 it's related to a secret that I promised your father I would never tell you,

Speaker 2 which, as you can imagine, is a great way to

Speaker 2 make. the other person insist that you reveal the secret, which is what happened.
And they wanted to not tell me before my interview in case it would be distracting.

Speaker 2 And they were very correct to do so. Could my dad have waited till the next morning? Yeah.

Speaker 2 But he told me that night when the interview was over.

Speaker 1 Did they know that you were studying secrets?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes, they did.
My mom would later tell me. One of the reasons she thinks she essentially let it slip on talking to my brother is she was really ready to reveal this secret.

Speaker 2 I mean, that was not part of the plan. There were multiple people who had a pact to never tell us, essentially.
And my mom was ready to essentially break that.

Speaker 2 And she'll say the reason she started becoming ready to reveal the secret

Speaker 2 is because she was reading about my research and realizing, like, oh, gosh, secrets are not good for you.

Speaker 2 I have to tell them.

Speaker 1 How does it make you feel knowing that your research on secrets led to this happening in your family.

Speaker 2 I can't find the word for it, but it's, you know, it's gratifying and just so

Speaker 2 sort of odd and strange. You know, this sort of story begins when I'm first setting my, when I'm first starting this research on secrecy, and I learned this big major secret.

Speaker 2 And then 10 years later, I'm writing this book about the past 10 years of research I've been doing and I'm interviewing my parents for this book.

Speaker 2 And then I found out that the reason that I learned that secret in the first place is because of my research. It's just,

Speaker 2 it's,

Speaker 2 I'm glad to know.

Speaker 2 And I'm glad that that is a secret they don't have to keep any longer.

Speaker 2 I think they could have told me sooner. And I certainly don't fault them for not doing so, but it's good to be able to talk about it.

Speaker 1 Well, I think you've done everybody and your family this extraordinary

Speaker 1 service. You've given everybody a gift because after really digging into your research, one one thing that I've concluded is that secrets are like birds trapped in cages and they want to be free.

Speaker 1 And that's why they torture us so much.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 why did you want to look at secrets in the beginning?

Speaker 1 I mean, do you kind of feel like this is the universe or God or some sort of cosmic intervention for why you started studying secrets to begin with?

Speaker 2 So when I first started studying secrecy, I was studying was this idea that people talk about secrets as if they have physical weight.

Speaker 2 People talk about being weighed down by a secret, as if they were carrying a weight on their backs when a secret is coming to their mind.

Speaker 2 And we saw some evidence that people were thinking about a secret that they had. The world around them seemed more challenging to interact with.

Speaker 2 And so this sense of burden, you can really feel it in a way that that can be hard to articulate.

Speaker 2 But to try to measure that, we essentially ask people to make judgments that we know actually vary by being physically encumbered.

Speaker 2 And so if you're tired or out of shape or carrying a bunch of grocery bags, you'll judge a hill as steeper because it truly is now going to be harder to scale that hill if you're if you're compromised in some way, if your resources are compromised in some way.

Speaker 2 And we essentially found the same thing when people were thinking about their secrets. We asked them to think about a significant secret.

Speaker 2 And when they were doing so, They just judged the world around them as more challenging to interact with. Hills appeared to be steeper.

Speaker 2 Distances appeared to be farther, as if that the secret was burdening them to the point where they felt like they had less ability or resources to tackle whatever lies ahead of them.

Speaker 2 You're actually held back by a secret. And when I started presenting that research to people, some people thought, oh, this is very interesting.
And that's when I realized.

Speaker 2 We don't know anything about secrecy. And so then I got serious about studying secrecy.
What secrets do people keep? How many? What does it look like when a secret comes to mind?

Speaker 2 And it was something different than what the sort of prior assumptions suggested from before.

Speaker 1 Ooh, we're all on the edge of our seats. What kind of secrets, based on your research, are the top secrets that people keep?

Speaker 2 So that was one of the first things to look into, this idea of, you know, if we want to learn anything about secrecy, we should look at people's real-life experiences.

Speaker 2 We should study people's real secrets because studying sort of made up secrets in the laboratory, it just might not tell us anything about real-world secrecy.

Speaker 2 And so we've asked a couple thousand people, what's the secret you're keeping right now?

Speaker 2 And so from the couple thousand people who told us about our secrets, we developed this list of 38 categories of secrets.

Speaker 2 And we know this list turns out to be really comprehensive because now we've given this list of secrets to 50,000 people. And on average, the person will at any given moment have 13

Speaker 2 secrets from that list of 38.

Speaker 2 We see 97% of people say they have at least one of those secrets right now. When we ask someone open-ended, what's the secret you're keeping? 92% of the time, it fits one of the ideas on the list.

Speaker 2 So we can, on a single page of paper, we can really cover well

Speaker 2 the universe of secrets that people keep and what they are.

Speaker 1 Can you give us the top 10 big categories?

Speaker 2 The most common secret is having told a significant lie. You can also not lie to keep a secret.
Someone can ask you something and you can honestly say, oh, I don't want to talk about that.

Speaker 2 And then a lie itself can be a secret

Speaker 2 because of some significant untruth we've told and we don't want that to be learned by other people. After that number one lying, number two is romantic desire.
Then it goes finances, sexual behavior.

Speaker 2 One really interesting one. that we call extra-relational thoughts.
You're in some kind of romantic relationship with one person and you're having some kind of romantic thought about another person.

Speaker 2 That's something people don't talk about. Family secrets are very common.
Secret ambitions, discontent with your social life or physical discontent.

Speaker 2 The list goes on and on, mental health, violations of trust, and so on.

Speaker 1 Well, what's interesting is we put out

Speaker 1 a call for people's secrets to nearly 5 million followers on Instagram.

Speaker 1 And I'll tell you what, first of all, y'all showed up and poured your secrets into me.

Speaker 1 And we're going to reveal some of them throughout this interview and kind of unpack your research with these real-life secrets that people have right now that are fans of this show.

Speaker 1 But I will confirm that every single one, and we received hundreds and hundreds and hundreds within hours, we had 36 pages of them printed out

Speaker 1 that they all fall within your top list of 38, which we'll link to in the show notes. And I think it's very interesting that everyone, yes, you listening, has an average of 13.

Speaker 1 And maybe that's why we should start with a definition. What is a secret?

Speaker 2 I define secrecy as the intent to withhold information from one or more people. There are plenty of secrets that you might keep that you just never have to actually conceal in conversation.

Speaker 2 They just don't come up in conversation. People don't go around asking you, have you ever cheated on your partner? Were you ever abused as a child? You know, have you had an abortion?

Speaker 2 These aren't topics we typically encounter. And so there might be a bunch of secrets that you don't have to actively work to keep.

Speaker 2 For most of our secrets, we can think about them quite a lot, but we don't have to hide them very often.

Speaker 2 And so we don't want to define secrecy as an action because that's a really small slice of the overall experience of secrecy. We only sometimes hide our secrets in conversation.

Speaker 2 And most importantly, our secrets exist before those conversations and our secrets exist after those conversations. They don't just disappear after you've successfully hid it, right?

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 the moment you intend to hold information back from someone, that's the moment you have a secret.

Speaker 2 Imagine someone is traveling for work and they cheat on their partner. They've never done it before.
They'll never do it again.

Speaker 2 But that moment they decide, oh, I can't tell this to my partner, it would destroy our relationship.

Speaker 2 That's the moment they have a secret, even before they have the sort of opportunity to hide it.

Speaker 1 Got it.

Speaker 1 So a more benign example might be you're supposed to be doing something at work and you're actually out running errands and your boss calls and you step somewhere where they can't hear the announcer at Target and you conceal the fact that you're not anywhere near your desk.

Speaker 1 That is another example of a secret. Do you have to feel bad?

Speaker 1 Nope. It's just the intent to not disclose something.
Exactly. So now I'm a little confused because are secrets good or are they bad?

Speaker 1 I mean, it seems like you're saying sometimes keeping a secret is a good thing. Hold your answer, Michael.
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Speaker 1 And I'm going to have you answer that when we come back. Stay with us.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and I'm talking to Michael Slepian.
He's the world's leading expert on secrets and he's just about to tell us, are all secrets bad? Are there any good secrets? Michael?

Speaker 2 Yes, there are some good secrets. Keeping a secret can protect a relationship and that can feel good or be good, but it can also be burdensome at the same time.

Speaker 2 Sometimes people keep secrets about good things, but that's a much rarer form of secrecy. It certainly happens all the time, but it's sort of eclipsed by all the negative secrets we keep.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 It doesn't bother you to keep the fact that you're planning a surprise birthday party for somebody, but it does eat away with you that you got caught at Target shopping when you should have been working, or some of the bigger ones that we'll get into.

Speaker 1 Is keeping a secret something that is innate in all human beings, or is it something that we learn to do?

Speaker 2 It's both.

Speaker 2 There's some evidence to suggest that we're not the only beings on the planet who keep secrets. There's some really fascinating studies on chimpanzees and they seem able to keep secrets too.

Speaker 2 And children start to keep secrets as soon as they figure out how to, as soon as they understand that

Speaker 2 the things that are inside their head are not necessarily in another person's head unless they tell them.

Speaker 2 They start understanding that people have these mental worlds that are unknown until discovered or unknown until shared. And as soon as they figure that out, they realize, like, oh, maybe I can

Speaker 2 not get in trouble for this spill if I can hide it.

Speaker 2 And so it seems to be a pretty natural way of interacting with people around us.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about the hardest part of keeping a secret.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 it turns out that what's hard about having a secret is not that we have to hide it. It's that we have to live with it alone in our thoughts.

Speaker 2 And so for my family's secret, it wasn't a secret that they had to hide very often. It wasn't something that they had to frequently hold back from us in conversation.

Speaker 2 That didn't mean

Speaker 2 the secret didn't exist though, because sometimes they would think about the secret. You know, they might think about the secret after that conversation.
They might sort of linger in their thoughts.

Speaker 2 And that turns out to be where the harms are. You hide it when necessary.
And so when those moments come, even if they feel awkward, you're pretty prepared for those moments.

Speaker 2 It's something you can do with relative success and ease. But you have all the time in the world to reflect back on the secret and wonder whether you're making the right choice.

Speaker 2 And then maybe you start doubting yourself, or maybe you start feeling bad for keeping the secret.

Speaker 2 These are things you don't have the time or bandwidth to think about in the moment when you're holding it back in conversation. But at all the other moments, your mind can go to these places that

Speaker 2 are harmful or that make the secrecy difficult.

Speaker 1 You know, what I find so fascinating is that you're basically saying that concealing it's the easy part, living with it is the really damaging part. And

Speaker 1 when I think about secrets that I had, you know, in my past, for example, the weight of that was crushing.

Speaker 1 Hiding the fact, and I'm thinking specifically about cheating on boyfriends when I was in my 20s and

Speaker 1 holding the secret, managing the information, feeling like an asshole.

Speaker 1 I still to this day regret and think about the things that I did when I was very self-destructive when I was younger that I kept secret for a long time and how liberating it is to be able to talk about these things.

Speaker 1 You're so focused on

Speaker 1 the other people in your life and how they will judge you or react that I think we tip the scales toward protecting other people.

Speaker 1 And we don't realize, and this is what your research bears, we don't realize how profoundly secrets negatively impact you.

Speaker 1 Have you discovered in your research if there's a physical, mental, emotional cost to this?

Speaker 2 Yes. So we can see in the research that there are so many reasons why just having to live with a secret in your thoughts can be harmful.

Speaker 2 You know, if there's something really big going on or something that's upsetting or some struggle you're working through and you're choosing to be entirely alone with it, you're just not going to develop the healthiest way of thinking about it.

Speaker 2 You know, healthy perspectives,

Speaker 2 those come from chatting about these things with other people, getting other people's perspectives can kind of curb our overly negative view of things. And

Speaker 2 those overly negative views don't get tempered when we just hold back from everyone. And then you might feel feelings of shame when a secret comes to mind.

Speaker 2 You might feel really isolated with a secret. You might feel really inauthentic for keeping it.
You might feel at a loss for what do. And

Speaker 2 what do you do with those feelings? You just have to revisit them every time the secret comes to mind if you're not going to find a way forward.

Speaker 1 Well, it's very clear in the listening to the way that you describe this that the secrets that you keep

Speaker 1 keep you disconnected from yourself.

Speaker 1 Because by shoving it down, managing information, feeling the shame and isolation and uncertainty that comes with holding this secret so low

Speaker 1 that you are

Speaker 1 eroding this trust with yourself to just own your life experience. And in preparing for this show today, I did a little research of my own.

Speaker 1 I asked the 5 million people that follow me on Instagram to share their secrets. And I was floored by the burden that people are carrying.
I'm going to read them.

Speaker 1 And as I read them to you, I want you to just

Speaker 1 feel the weight of what it must be like to live with this.

Speaker 1 I struggle with compulsion, whether it's finances, shopping, purchases, binge eating.

Speaker 1 I'm desperately unhappy in my marriage, but I'm too scared to make the break. My husband and I are struggling financially.

Speaker 1 I've never been satisfied in the bedroom with my partner, and I love them anyway. I've fallen in love with somebody that isn't my husband.
Nothing has happened, but still, I feel so ashamed.

Speaker 1 I'm keeping a secret from my partner that I took out a high interest loan.

Speaker 1 I had an affair with an employee, and it gave me so much anxiety in the end, I had to move.

Speaker 1 I didn't graduate from high school. Everyone I know thinks I'm thriving post-divorce, and I'm worse off than I've ever been.

Speaker 1 What are your thoughts about these?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so, you know, they all jumped out at me in sort of their individual ways.

Speaker 2 You know, when I think about the relationship ones, which is a huge theme that we'll see in the secrets that people keep.

Speaker 2 you know, think about the person who

Speaker 2 is not thriving after their divorce and

Speaker 2 they're just holding that information back. That's someone who really, really would benefit from others' help.

Speaker 2 And it's not because we're helpless. It's because other people just have so much to offer.

Speaker 2 You know, someone could just hear you out. Someone could just listen to you.
Someone could just validate your experience. Like that's.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry you're going through that. Just, you know, sympathy, empathy.

Speaker 2 These sort of little morsels that we get from talking about these things are really helpful. It's just really hard to struggle with something alone.

Speaker 2 And bringing people into the conversation can help so much. The person who said that they're in love with someone else, someone who's not their husband, they haven't done any wrong actions.

Speaker 2 This is a common thing we see too, where people will feel

Speaker 2 a thought they've had or a feeling they have is a secret that they hold, even though they haven't done anything wrong.

Speaker 2 It just goes to show you how weighty a secret can be when we're just talking about a collection of thoughts or a collection of feelings, not even an action.

Speaker 1 The other one that popped out at me is: I didn't graduate from high school. And the reason why that struck me is that if you keep that a secret, it means you feel ashamed.

Speaker 1 And the secret keeping makes the fact that you didn't graduate from high school

Speaker 1 somehow a problem.

Speaker 1 You know, like you think there's something wrong with it. And so keeping it a secret makes it an even bigger issue in your life.

Speaker 1 When most people, if you tell them that, won't give a shit and will probably acknowledge you for how you're successful and, you know, you've done a great job without it and see it as something that is a thing to be proud of.

Speaker 2 These things can seem so much bigger, loom so much larger in our heads, and

Speaker 2 putting them out in the world is never as bad as we think it's going to be. I was at a party with a friend and all of a sudden she just said, I have a secret to tell you.

Speaker 1 Okay, Michael, I want to know what the secret was, but I got to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 1 When we come back, we're going to go to this point in the story and you're going to have to share that secret with us too. Everyone, stay with us.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. I'm with Michael Sleppian, who wrote the book called The Secret Life of Secrets.

Speaker 1 He's the world's leading expert on the psychology of secrets, and he's about to tell us the secret that his friend felt she couldn't keep from him anymore. She knew him for years.

Speaker 1 This was weighing on her. So, Michael, when she leaned in and whispered the secret she had been keeping from you for years, what was it?

Speaker 2 I didn't do well in college.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 That's it?

Speaker 2 And I was like, well, what made you think to share that? And she just was like, I realized I didn't have this not a secret I have to keep. And she was right.

Speaker 2 Of course, learning that my really good friend didn't have good grades in college, it's like, okay, that's totally fine. You know, that doesn't change our relationship.

Speaker 2 When we learn things about other people, they're just drops in the bucket of all our experiences with them and all our histories with them and learning something new even something surprising even something difficult it's not going to just change everything about your relationship

Speaker 1 so you said

Speaker 1 it's never as bad as you think when you tell a secret it might be a little uncomfortable or absolutely awful the moment it comes out of your mouth but just in your example alone, you adjusted pretty quickly to what the truth is.

Speaker 1 It was the fact that it was withheld from you for so long that truly upset you and bothered you.

Speaker 1 And I think we've all had experiences like that, where somebody confesses something, you're pissed off, you're disappointed, whatever, and then you forgive them and you move forward.

Speaker 1 But you're kind of upset that they didn't come to you sooner.

Speaker 1 But knowing that intellectually doesn't help us actually confess our secrets, which I'm kind of gathering, telling somebody is one of the best ways you can start to relieve this burden.

Speaker 1 I want to talk a little bit about secrecy versus privacy.

Speaker 1 So what is the line between

Speaker 1 having a secret

Speaker 1 versus this is information about me that I just would like to keep private?

Speaker 2 So not everything

Speaker 2 that people don't know about us is a secret, right? There's certain things people don't know about us, but because it's never come up in conversation.

Speaker 2 And, you know, there's a subset of those things that we consider private because it's just something we never talk about.

Speaker 2 For example, maybe you don't talk about your sex life with your friends, or maybe you don't talk about your sex life with your family, for example.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 these are things that are not secrets. It may not be secret that you have a sex life, but if it's just the kind of thing people don't talk about, or it's the kind of thing you don't talk about,

Speaker 2 that might be considered something private, but not secret.

Speaker 2 If you had a specific, for example, sexual experience that you would not want people to know about and something you intentionally would withhold if it was ever relevant to a conversation, now we're talking about a secret.

Speaker 1 It's interesting because I feel like the word secret feels like I've done something bad and the word private feels like I'm just not freaking telling you. Like that's private information.

Speaker 1 I am in control of this. But there is a huge difference between shame and guilt.

Speaker 1 And I personally believe that the area that is most important for everyone to pay attention to when it relates to your research is how secrets create shame.

Speaker 1 And shame being not that the thing that I did, the cheating was bad. It's that I'm a despicable person for doing it.
The fact that I didn't graduate from high school is bad. No, no, no.

Speaker 1 It's I'm a stupid imbecile and there's something wrong with me. The shame and the weight where you indict yourself.

Speaker 1 And that's why I wanted to talk to you because I don't think any of us realize how damaging it is to keep a secret because you are piling shame on yourself because you are judging yourself when you don't feel free to disclose certain things because you feel ashamed of yourself for having this secret.

Speaker 1 What does your research bear out?

Speaker 2 So that's that's exactly right. You know, we all make mistakes.
Every human on earth makes mistakes. And

Speaker 2 that's okay, right?

Speaker 2 In the face of these mistakes or admissions of guilt or, you know, things we feel that are wrong, rather, you know, misdeeds, we can say, oh, I'm a terrible person. And that's what we call shame.

Speaker 2 And what's really problematic about that way of thinking about the issue at hand is

Speaker 2 it's really hard to find a way to change that view. If you feel like you're a bad person, you feel like, well, I guess there's nothing I can do about that.
I'm just not good.

Speaker 2 But if instead of thinking about how this reflects on you, if we think about how it reflects on your behavior, how it reflects on your actions, you could say, I've done something bad.

Speaker 2 And I've done something bad is a much healthier way of thinking about the problem than I'm a bad person.

Speaker 2 And when you think I've done something bad, that's not shame, that's guilt.

Speaker 2 And guilt is good good in this context because if you're saying, okay, I've done something bad, that means you could do something differently next time. Your past doesn't dictate your future.

Speaker 2 When we feel guilty, we feel motivated to do better. And it's hard to get to that point when we're overly focused on how bad we feel about ourselves, when we feel ashamed.

Speaker 1 I want to highlight what you just said, like take my imaginary yellow highlighter, because I want to make sure you're listening to us right now that you really got something.

Speaker 1 Because I think Michael just handed us a script from 10 years of his research that

Speaker 1 you can borrow. I want you to start to think you're a good person who did a bad thing.
That does not make you a bad person.

Speaker 1 And when you go to confess to somebody or you go to talk to somebody about it, because you realize you are a good person and you have learned from that thing that you did and you no longer are going to carry the burden of the secret, that you're a good person that did a bad thing.

Speaker 1 And part of taking responsibility for it is being able to talk about it and what you learned for it and to separate what you did from who you are as a person.

Speaker 1 Because, you know, I've just confessed to everybody that, you know, the thing that I regret the most is being a cheater in college and in law school. And I hate that about myself.

Speaker 1 And yet at the same time, I know I was just a good person that was really struggling. I was a good good person with crushing anxiety.
I was a good person that felt really lost.

Speaker 1 I was a good person that was coping in very self-destructive ways.

Speaker 1 And when I can look at myself that way, I don't have to hold the secret because I'm not saying I'm a shitty person, therefore I have to hide this thing because I'm afraid of what people are going to think about me.

Speaker 1 I have to prioritize, Michael, what I think about myself. And so steal this from Michael's research, everybody.

Speaker 1 You're a good person person and the thing that you're holding on to as a secret is a bad thing that you did that you're going to learn from and you're going to move on from.

Speaker 1 We have a lot of parents and also young adults that listen to this.

Speaker 3 How

Speaker 1 does

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 ways in which we grew up impact how we deal with secrets as adults, Michael?

Speaker 2 So children, you know, as soon as they start learning how to keep secrets, they'll try to do so, not always successfully.

Speaker 2 You know, when we're talking about three-year-olds, they're not very sophisticated secret keepers, but they'll try.

Speaker 2 You know, they'll say, like, oh, I didn't have any of the cookies despite having cookie crumbs on their lips, for example.

Speaker 2 And so it's a natural place for kids to be at that stage to use secrecy as a way of getting out of trouble.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 that's not a problem.

Speaker 2 That's normal, right?

Speaker 2 And where the problems begin is if children or

Speaker 2 teenagers, young teenagers are

Speaker 2 ashamed about something or they feel like they're struggling with something. Maybe they're being bullied, you know, something like this, something that

Speaker 2 needs to be addressed in some way. And if they're keeping those kinds of secrets, now we're talking about the kind of harmful secrets that we see in adults.
And so

Speaker 2 what we want to do as parents is make kids feel comfortable bringing something difficult to talk about to you. They know if they'll tell their parents, they're going to get in more trouble.

Speaker 2 And so they might think, well, I'll just not tell them. And so the challenge for parents is how can you open that door for confession and how can you

Speaker 2 keep it open? How can you sort of express the disappointment that is sort of natural to do so without sort of

Speaker 2 making it harder for them? You know, how can you make them feel comfortable coming to you

Speaker 2 with trouble, essentially? Can we role play?

Speaker 1 Can we role play real quick? Why don't you be the parent and I'm the kid? Because I'm serious.

Speaker 1 Like we need scripts because I would love to have you coach us and give us scripts on, let's just start with the parent-child situation. You're reading in bed.
I've gone to a party.

Speaker 1 I'm a junior in high school.

Speaker 1 Dad,

Speaker 1 I'm in trouble. I'm at this party.
I was drinking. The police showed up.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I don't know what to do.

Speaker 1 What should the parents say, Michael?

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, the parents should say, like, I'm here to help you, essentially.
And, you know, let me talk you through this. Let me walk you through this.

Speaker 2 This is something that we can get through together, that this is going to be okay. And yes, I'm upset that you weren't honest with me.

Speaker 2 But I understand how you got here. I'm glad you felt okay bringing this to me because we can work on it together.

Speaker 1 I literally just felt my shoulders drop. I love you, Dad.
Now, that was great.

Speaker 1 But when the kid comes home, I think we make the mistake where then we ground him.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 When you're really frustrated with your child or really annoyed or really angry,

Speaker 2 you probably need to communicate that. But what you want to try to avoid is like an angry outburst

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 you're modeling coping behaviors behaviors that your children will pick up on.

Speaker 2 And if they learn that when I admit something to you, you just lash out at me, they're going to learn maybe that's not something I should do.

Speaker 2 Maybe next time I'm in this situation, I should just keep it to myself.

Speaker 2 And that's when the harms of secrecy start.

Speaker 1 Well, two things that have made a difference, or at least I think they have, is that I've always thought to myself, if my kid's in trouble, I don't want their first thought to be, oh, fuck, my mom's mom's going to kill me.

Speaker 1 I want their first thought to be, I have to call my mom. She's going to help.

Speaker 1 And I try not to express the disappointment in that moment because I know that we will be talking about this incident for weeks, months, maybe years to come.

Speaker 1 I want to keep unpacking this because I think a lot of us have been in a situation where somebody that we know is keeping a secret from us and we kind of get it.

Speaker 1 And so I would love tools from you in how to approach these.

Speaker 1 And so let's take a scenario where where you've got friends that are constantly getting together and they're not inviting you and they're sort of sly about it or they've planned a trip and you sort of pick up on it.

Speaker 1 What is the best way to broach with somebody

Speaker 1 that you know that they're keeping something from you without coming across like some psycho stalkerish, you know, insecure freak?

Speaker 2 They're in that situation, we want to say like, hey, you know, I know

Speaker 2 these kinds of things can be difficult to talk about, but

Speaker 2 I'm open to talking about them

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 in this case, I think that might be better than secret keeping. Secrets are a chance to help each other with something.

Speaker 2 They don't have to be this thing that separates us and makes us sort of turn inward.

Speaker 1 I love that. that you can use it as a way to actually be closer with somebody.
I know you guys are planning a trip. It's totally fine.

Speaker 1 But I'd love to talk about the fact that you feel the need to keep it secret.

Speaker 1 What about in a relationship? You think that somebody's cheating on you

Speaker 1 and you have your suspicions and

Speaker 1 you don't even really have evidence or maybe you do. You've seen a text message or something.

Speaker 1 Typically what happens in these situations is you're emotionally triggered and you accuse and then there's the defense and the standoff.

Speaker 1 How do you even approach this topic knowing that somebody's likely going to lie to you, but to truly invite the discussion, the open the door?

Speaker 2 So I really like this question because

Speaker 2 it's hard.

Speaker 2 This is a really tough one.

Speaker 1 Well, let's take our example, Michael. So let me just read to you this woman.
She says,

Speaker 1 I've fallen in love with someone that isn't my husband. Nothing has happened, but I still feel so ashamed.
Let's say that this person's spouse

Speaker 1 just has a suspicion. How does the person's spouse open up this dialogue?

Speaker 2 In that situation,

Speaker 2 I was talking about the most common secrets. Number five is what we call extra-relational thoughts, by which I mean having a romantic thought about someone who's not your romantic partner.

Speaker 1 Or an emotional affair.

Speaker 2 Or an emotional affair. But among among the secrets people keep, it's the one people talk least about.

Speaker 2 Maybe you feel like, okay, I think my partner is like really close to this other person or seems to sort of be unavailable to me. It can be something that we can work through together.

Speaker 2 It can be something we can talk about. This is something we can figure out what it means.
Maybe we need to do some work together. Maybe we have some work to do on our end.
But

Speaker 1 well, I think that's what you kind of say to yourself to coach yourself up to get the nerve to actually broach the topic. And it is profoundly normal to be attracted to other people.

Speaker 1 But your partner finding somebody else attractive or leaning on somebody else emotionally is kind of how human beings operate.

Speaker 1 And so if you can understand that it might not kill your relationship, but it's something that you have to talk about. It's the secrecy of it that really will pull your relationship apart.

Speaker 1 How would you broach that? Like, what's the first sentence that you say to try to get somebody to open up about a secret?

Speaker 2 The first sentence is not an accusation because that's what might lead to defensive responses. You just want to say, I want you to feel comfortable bringing something to me.

Speaker 2 And I hope that I can do that with you. And if you feel like there's something we need to talk about or there's something about our relationship that's not as good as it can be,

Speaker 2 I want you to know that's something I want to talk about. And that's something I want to work through.

Speaker 2 Relationship issues is really high on the list of things people don't want to talk about with their partner. It's awkward.
We're not practiced at it.

Speaker 2 I probably wouldn't mention this other person that you're waiting.

Speaker 1 See, Michael, I would have taken a totally different approach. You know, having cheated in my past,

Speaker 1 I literally am the one like, yeah, I don't feel there's anything need to talk about with you because I'm more comfortable with you not knowing.

Speaker 1 And so I loved where you were going, where you're like, you know, look, first of all, I want us to have the kind of relationship where we can talk about, but I want to work through everything with you.

Speaker 1 And I'm feeling very insecure about how close you are with so-and-so.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that that's good. And I think that's a good framing.
What I really like about that is it's you're still talking about yourself. Yes.

Speaker 2 You're not saying, I have a problem with what you're doing, but you're saying, this is making me feel in the way that I feel like I need to bring to you.

Speaker 1 You know, I want to dig into family secrets because I was very struck when we asked our audience to share secrets that they were keeping, how

Speaker 1 many

Speaker 1 family secrets people felt obligated to keep. And I'm going to give you.
a couple examples and then let's talk about them. There was a woman that wrote in talking about how she knew that her uncle

Speaker 1 was

Speaker 1 making his kids keep a secret from their mother. That

Speaker 1 every other weekend when they were growing up, their father would take his two daughters fishing with his other woman.

Speaker 1 And the daughters have kept it from the mother forever.

Speaker 1 I've got another listener who wrote in, in, Mel, growing up it was acceptable for me to sit with my parents and get high.

Speaker 1 I feel that because of my parents' lifestyle, we always had to keep it a secret. And so I never let anyone in.

Speaker 1 These patterns carry over into relationships and end up looking like secrecy. It's just comfortable to me to not let anyone in.
And then this one.

Speaker 1 My mom was sexually abused as a child by her late father, and my living grandmother doesn't know.

Speaker 1 And it bothers me every time she talks about what a wonderful guy he was.

Speaker 2 Family secrets are also in the top 10. Here's this thing that's incredibly difficult to talk about it, but I want to.

Speaker 2 And I want to feel able to. And how can we get there? When it comes to children, you know, I think you want to think very carefully as a parent.

Speaker 2 what it means to be asking your child to keep a secret with you or on your behalf because

Speaker 2 it should set off some alarm bells.

Speaker 1 I actually think it's emotional abuse.

Speaker 1 I think it is completely inappropriate for adults to be burdening children with details about their marriage or with secrets that you're supposed to keep because it makes you as a child start to associate love with loyalty and obedience.

Speaker 1 And I get so angry, Michael, when I see parents disclosing issues about their marriage to their children, where they try to triangulate and get kids to go against an ex-spouse or a current spouse.

Speaker 1 And bar, I just, this is, you can tell it pisses me off. For me personally, I feel like this is more than be careful.
Don't fucking do it. Because I, let's focus on Kristen.

Speaker 1 Growing up, I have become so overly independent, I never know when to to ask for help. I feel that because of my parents' lifestyle, we had to keep a secret.
And so now I never let anyone in.

Speaker 1 And these patterns carry over into relationships. How does having family secrets as a child impact

Speaker 1 someone as an adult? What did you see in your 10 years of research, Michael?

Speaker 2 So I think, you know, in a situation where there's a lot of family secrets, you start getting the idea as a child, like

Speaker 2 secrets are how you solve problems.

Speaker 2 Make sure this person doesn't know about this and we can all move forward. And of course, what we've been talking about is secrecy creates problems.

Speaker 2 People who have a habit of keeping secrets as a way of dealing with distress, as a way of dealing with difficult issues, these are people who develop a habit of not coming to others for needed help.

Speaker 2 You don't want children to think like the way to solve difficult conversations is to just never have them. That's going to make things worse.

Speaker 1 When you think about how prevalent sexual abuse is, that one in four women, one in six men, at least based on the research, have experienced it.

Speaker 1 We know how it can become generational and be a big secret inside of families.

Speaker 1 And so I think about this listener that wrote in talking about the fact that her grandmother has no idea that her late husband molested their daughter. How does somebody

Speaker 1 start to

Speaker 1 deal with a secret of that magnitude? Because I would imagine that you're like, well, should I tell my grandmother? Should I not tell my grandmother?

Speaker 2 Right. And so I think this is the right question.

Speaker 2 Should I tell my grandmother? Because I think, why do you want to tell a person, this person, your secret? Is it just because

Speaker 2 you just can't be alone with it anymore? Or you just, or is it that you really feel

Speaker 2 that they should know it and that that's the right thing to do

Speaker 2 it's sometimes not clear and i think that's a moment when you realize you should be talking to a third party about this and sort of get some other perspectives because once you tell it there's there's no going back so you want to be really clear to yourself why you are considering telling someone this thing that there's no undo button for do they need to know this thing would they want to know this thing

Speaker 2 if the reason you want to reveal it is just because you feel like you really want to talk about it, that's like, well, maybe you should first talk about it with someone else and see where that takes you and maybe get that other person's perspective on whether you should tell your grandmother in this scenario.

Speaker 2 It turns out that the secrets we think most about are the secrets that harm us most.

Speaker 2 What's much more common is people feel like it's one dimension that's really hurting them. And so, what's useful about knowing there's three ways in which a secret tends to hurt you

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 noting for yourself which of these ways don't apply um

Speaker 2 it's very easy it turns out for people to point to one of those dimensions be like yeah this i'm not hurting on this dimension

Speaker 2 and that's really useful because that's essentially your lifeline um you know maybe you're like

Speaker 2 this secret is hard and I feel alone with it and I don't know what to do with it, but I don't think it's wrong.

Speaker 2 That's helpful. That's huge.

Speaker 1 One of the things that I'm a little worried about with this episode is that everybody listening, according to your research, has three secrets,

Speaker 1 our 13 secrets, one of which is very active. We've probably stirred it up inside of them.

Speaker 1 Now they're like pissed off at me and feeling uncomfortable and like, Michael, you know, don't tell me that I'm feeling the shame. You're right.
I should do something.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about something that you call the coping compass. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you have a secret

Speaker 1 and you're feeling that it is a huge burden

Speaker 1 and it's time to relieve yourself of that burden.

Speaker 1 Is finding somebody to confide in the first thing you should do?

Speaker 2 Yes. If you can find the right person to talk to.

Speaker 2 you're in you're in a really good place. And there's a lot of people who are the right people to talk to you.

Speaker 2 The idea of the coping compass is essentially you're trying to point yourself to the resource that's most available to you.

Speaker 2 In this context, I would say that you have someone you can talk to.

Speaker 2 Maybe a really natural person to talk to is the person who told you this secret and you say, hey, I'm having a lot of trouble with this. I'd like to talk about it with you.

Speaker 2 This person is uniquely available. to you to talk about this.

Speaker 2 And it's easy to forget them, that you have this person who just knows the whole story and you can talk about it with them and just understand like where are they headed with this because you're finding it hard.

Speaker 2 And there's a lesson we need to come back to, which is choose your person carefully. What you want to avoid as much as you can is putting a burden on someone else.

Speaker 2 Say cheated on your partner, talking to their best friend.

Speaker 2 It's not your best option. It's maybe one of your worst options.
You don't want to be just taking the burden off you and placing it on them. Someone outside of the situation is someone to talk to.

Speaker 2 And so you could also talk to a third party about it as well and just say, Hey, what would you do in this situation?

Speaker 2 How can I work through it?

Speaker 1 Here's how I think about it. I love the word coping compass, because even just in your and my conversation, I think that anybody listening to the two of us, you probably have discerned that

Speaker 1 I would put Michael in the compassionate

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 caring camp,

Speaker 1 and I would put me in the assertive camp.

Speaker 1 And so if your compass is telling you, I got to talk to somebody and I just need somebody who's going to listen and be compassionate, you would likely go to Michael.

Speaker 1 If this is eating you alive and you're like, I got to talk to somebody and I need a solution here.

Speaker 1 I got to absorb some courage. You would go to the assertive person who's going to go, are you out of your fucking mind? You either need to end this or tell your partner.

Speaker 1 You clearly need to go to therapy, but this is killing you. And you told me because you knew I would say that to you, but you got two weeks to figure this out or else I'm telling your spouse.

Speaker 1 So I think that advice, Michael, choose the person

Speaker 1 that is your coping compass

Speaker 1 wisely

Speaker 1 because it matters. And the second thing that you said that I think is really important is when you're choosing to remember,

Speaker 1 you may be doing a bad thing or you may be embarrassed by this thing that you need to work through, but you're not a bad person.

Speaker 1 The simple fact that you want to tell somebody indicates that you know that you don't deserve to live under the weight of this secret.

Speaker 1 And so I love the fact that in every situation, finding somebody to talk to, whether it is a compassionate or it's an assertive friend or it's a therapist,

Speaker 1 That's the number one thing. Because what that does, Michael, is

Speaker 1 it seems like it would honor the fact that you deserve to feel better in your life and that you're ready to relieve yourself of the pain that holding a secret has caused you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's exactly right. There's essentially two forms of social support and one is what we call emotional support.

Speaker 2 Do you just want someone to hear you out? Do you want just someone to say like, that sucks, I'm here for you? Or do you need to do something?

Speaker 2 You have to take some action. And that's when you're looking for the assertive person, the person you know is going to push you to do the thing that you need to do.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you choose your person carefully. And there's a study that I really like.
It's that's not about secrecy. It's about, you know, people read these stories about other people.

Speaker 2 And one version of the story is someone's. done bad things in their past and now they're doing good things.

Speaker 2 And then in the other version of the story, people have done good things in the past and now they're doing bad things today.

Speaker 2 And essentially, what the study showed was most people at the end of the day believe that most people deep down are good.

Speaker 1 I believe that

Speaker 1 with my whole heart. I really do.

Speaker 1 I love your point, Michael, that when you keep a secret, it keeps you apart. But when you share a secret, It actually brings you closer to the people that you love.

Speaker 1 And I found these two questions in a New York Times essay by Mandy Catron that are questions you can ask anyone in order to create a more intimate relationship.

Speaker 1 And I think these two questions are great tools in any relationship to open up the door to have deeper conversations and even allow people the opportunity to potentially confess a secret.

Speaker 1 And so I'm going to ask them to you right now, Michael. And the first one is, what is your biggest regret?

Speaker 1 Do you want to go first?

Speaker 2 Am I answering what my my biggest regret is? Yeah.

Speaker 2 This is going to make us closer. No, I mean, yes, I mean,

Speaker 2 let's try this out.

Speaker 2 Biggest regret, you know, one of the regrets that comes to mind right now, because of the secret we were talking about earlier, the secret of learning about

Speaker 2 being donor conceived. You know, one thing I didn't realize until way later is that, you know, that secret got out.

Speaker 2 I found it shocking and hard to grapple with. My brother found it even more difficult.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, essentially, there was the day that both of us knew. And I like had a phone call with my mom the next day.
And I, you know, I had that phone call with my dad.

Speaker 2 And then my brother came out to visit me in California. And we talked about it a little bit.
And then we stopped.

Speaker 2 Like, like two weeks later, it was kind of like it never happened and nobody was talking about it anymore and it made me realize that

Speaker 2 even once a secret is out

Speaker 2 we sometimes still don't talk about it enough even though now we have the opportunities to do so and where my regret really comes in

Speaker 2 is I didn't realize until years later when I started interviewing my parents for the book that I learned that my grandmother, my dad's father, played a huge role in this secret.

Speaker 2 And this is something I could have learned if I

Speaker 2 asked questions about the secret at the time I first learned it. But I just didn't.
I don't know why. I didn't think too until

Speaker 2 years and years later.

Speaker 2 And I wish I did because I could have found out sooner

Speaker 2 why this secret was held in the first place. And it turned out a lot of it came down to my dad's mother.
My grandmother, she really didn't want me and my younger brother to know because

Speaker 2 she just felt so close to me and my younger brother. And we felt so close to my dad's parents and especially our grandmother.
And it was just such this special relationship. And she didn't want to,

Speaker 2 she didn't want to hurt it. She was concerned that we would feel less part of the family.

Speaker 2 if we knew we weren't biologically related to our dad and his parents. And I just, I really wish we could have talked about that because it's exactly the opposite.

Speaker 2 Learning that I wasn't biologically related to, you know, my grandparents that I was so close with didn't make those relationships less special or less meaningful.

Speaker 2 It made them more meaningful and more special. And I just, I really wish I could have told her that.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 My biggest regret is definitely cheating on people that I really cared about.

Speaker 1 And the second question is, what is the hardest memory that you have?

Speaker 2 Let's think about this.

Speaker 2 I'll also answer, you know, when it comes to relationships and past relationships, I found all my old emails from an ex,

Speaker 2 someone who I was with for five years, and the relationship just ended in a really bad way.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you kind of remember your side of the story.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I started reading these old emails. And I was just like, oh, God,

Speaker 2 I was really a terrible partner at the end of this relationship. And, you know, all I remember was the ways in which my partner at the time was failing me, not the ways in which I was failing her.

Speaker 2 And to just see it so clearly on the screen,

Speaker 2 it was really confronting

Speaker 2 to see that I played a huge part in that breakup as well. And that's just not how I remembered it.

Speaker 2 Some of the things that I was reading about are like some problems that I've carried on to my current relationship.

Speaker 2 And just, it was kind of hard to see the other perspective on this problem, the one that wasn't mine. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, but it kind of feels like it does.

Speaker 2 And it's tough to think about things you've done that in retrospect were wrong.

Speaker 1 But how beautiful that you now can reflect that there are some similar themes coming up that you can actually actively work on

Speaker 1 to better your life and your relationships. My hardest memory is after sophomore year of college,

Speaker 1 had a terrible breakup with this guy that I really, really loved.

Speaker 1 And we had had a really, really

Speaker 1 hard spring because his father had died of suicide and I spiraled. And

Speaker 1 we had big plans for the summer and I just cratered and his mom drove up from Indiana to pick him up from our house in Michigan. And I just remember

Speaker 1 them leaving. I could barely even look at his mother because I just knew how much pain she was in, I was in, he was in.
You know, I think a lot. I was just a kid.

Speaker 1 And yet if I could do it all over, I would.

Speaker 1 And it kind of also relates to another huge regret of mine, which is I just wish that I had known how much childhood trauma had fucked me up earlier and that I had gotten into therapy earlier and how

Speaker 1 there were so many things that I didn't even realize that I was doing. because I didn't have the tools or the knowledge or the skills that I do now.

Speaker 1 So I look back with a lot of compassion for myself, but oh my God, there's always this like, it's not a secret anymore, but boy, there's like a weight in your heart. It's what drives me now.

Speaker 1 Like, if I can save anybody the headache and the heartache that I caused myself and other people, because they just didn't know how to do better, that's,

Speaker 1 I'm, I'm, I'm going to do it. And so I want to thank you, Michael, because I know that

Speaker 1 this conversation today, your research, that it is going to cause a massive ripple of change and empowerment through people's lives around the world.

Speaker 1 So thank you for taking the time to be here today and to be so open.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 1 Wow. I am so blown away by the depth of this conversation that I already anticipate that it has stirred something up inside of you.
And I just feel the need to say something.

Speaker 1 I've never done this before on the podcast, but I want to be that assertive friend.

Speaker 1 So if there's something that got stirred up inside of you and you now are looking for advice and coaching to be able to work through some secret, a burden that you've been carrying alone, I am raising my hand and saying I will be that assertive friend.

Speaker 1 Go to melrobbins.com. Go to the podcast section.
You'll find a form there that says submit a topic and fill it out so that I can help coach you through this secret.

Speaker 1 And you might just find yourself anonymously on the Mel Robbins podcast as I coach you through your secret. Okay?

Speaker 1 Awesome. And in case no one else tells you today, I want to tell you, despite what you're carrying deep inside you, you're a good person.

Speaker 1 And I love you. And I believe in you.
And I believe in your ability to create a better life. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days.

Speaker 1 I've been discussing this topic with my friends. Oh,

Speaker 1 excuse me. I just had a protein shake.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 It tastes good, but it repeats.

Speaker 1 Could I have a sip of my water? Jesse, I'm sorry to. How are you? Or I'm going to get my headphones on so I can hear you.
I wonder if I should take these bracelets off because I'm making some noise.

Speaker 1 Yes, take them off. Okay, Jesse's like, get that jewelry off.
There we go. Okay.
All right. Just do the limbo and get back in here.
Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Never mind.
There we go. You're a very intellectual, dude.

Speaker 1 Okay. Excellent.

Speaker 1 Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.

Speaker 1 This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend.

Speaker 1 I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good.

Speaker 1 I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 1 Stitcher.

Speaker 1 There are millions of podcasts out there, and you've chosen this one. Whether you're a regular or just here on a whim, it's what you have chosen to listen to.

Speaker 1 With Yoto, your kids can have the same choice. Yoto is a screen-free, ad-free audio player.
With hundreds of Yoto cards, there are stories, music, and podcasts like this one, but for kids.

Speaker 1 Just slot a card into the player and let the adventure begin. Check out YotoPlay.com.

Speaker 4 At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone.

Speaker 4 You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve.

Speaker 4 You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals.

Speaker 4 A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.