Research From Princeton: 13 Proven Hacks That Boost Your Influence & Make You More Confident

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Speaker 1 PNC Bank, National Association, member FDIC. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

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Speaker 1 boy, are you and I in for a treat today? I am super excited to talk to the expert that I have tracked down and gotten on the show for both of us.

Speaker 1 We are going to talk about the hacks and tips and tricks and research that you can put to use in your own life so that you appear more confident to other people. How cool is that?

Speaker 1 See, I wanted to do this topic now because here in the United States, anyway, it's going to be September soon and fall is always like this second new year.

Speaker 1 A lot of people go back to school, they go back to work, they think about going to different jobs, they think about changing up their life in September.

Speaker 1 And so I thought right now is the time for you to have in your back pocket the best research, the best tools, and the best scripts that you can use to do a number of things.

Speaker 1 Wait till you hear the amount of things you're going to learn today.

Speaker 1 First of all, you're going to learn that there are three things based on the research that you must do in the first 10 seconds of a Zoom call.

Speaker 1 I bet you didn't even know know that there were three things you needed to do. I didn't either.
We're going to give you tips for nailing an interview.

Speaker 1 You're going to learn why you keep getting passed over for the promotion and what you can do next time to make sure you get paid what you deserve and you get the promotion that you've been working hard for.

Speaker 1 You're going to learn that a second impression is just as important as the first impression that you make. You're going to learn why you should never, ever, ever fake a smile.

Speaker 1 A simple test that you can use to learn what people think about you in the first impression.

Speaker 1 You're going to hear the major mistake a lot of people make when they speak, how to ask for a raise, how to be better at selling.

Speaker 1 So buckle up because this is going to be an episode you're going to want to bookmark.

Speaker 1 If you are in real estate, if you are running your own business, if you have one of the social selling or multi-level marketing businesses, This is something you're going to want to forward to everyone because we're talking the foundational research, in fact, shocking research out of Princeton that you're going to hear about that is going to help you sell more.

Speaker 1 It's going to help you be more effective. It's going to help you get the money that you deserve.
It's going to help you nail that job that you want.

Speaker 1 It's going to help you make the impression and the impact with other people that you really want to make using hacks, tips, and strategies. And by the way, if you're introverted, guess what?

Speaker 1 So is our expert. So who is our expert? Her name is Vanessa Van Edwards.
She is a best-selling author. She is a behavioral investigator.

Speaker 1 She is one of the world's most respected experts on the topics of charisma, communication, confidence, and influence. She's the founder of the research group Science of People, and she is here.

Speaker 1 That's right. Vanessa Van Edwards is here in the house and ready to make you and me more effective in just about absolutely everything we do.
Vanessa, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 1 We are thrilled that you are here.

Speaker 2 I'm so happy to be here. I can't even tell you.

Speaker 1 Well, let's just jump right into it because you have written the book on both charisma and body language. And so I want to start with what is charisma and why does it matter?

Speaker 2 So what's funny about charisma, I've always been fascinated by this trait. I'm a recovering awkward person.

Speaker 2 Charisma does not come naturally to me. I've always been fascinated by the cool kids.
You know, I watch them and I'm like, oh, how do they know what to do?

Speaker 2 And so I was for many years trapped by this mistaken belief that to be charismatic, you have to be extroverted. You have to be bubbly.
You have to be life of the party. And I am not an extrovert.

Speaker 2 And so I always thought, well, I guess I can't have it. It's an innate trait.
You have to be extroverted.

Speaker 2 What research actually finds is that charisma has nothing to do with your extroversion, your attractiveness, your athleticism, even your intelligence.

Speaker 2 The actual definition of highly charismatic people, what makes them different is they send a very specific set of social signals.

Speaker 2 Specifically, they are constantly signaling high warmth, so trust, likability, friendliness, along with, and this is the key, a balance of high competence, capability, power, effectiveness.

Speaker 2 And what's magical about this is if you're with someone and you are drawn into them, you immediately are able to answer two questions. I can trust you.
and I can rely on you.

Speaker 2 And so highly charismatic people, that's what they're signaling, warmth and competence competence at all times.

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay.
So let me see if I just can bottom line this.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 If you display charisma, other people are left with the impression that they can trust you and that they can count on you. Is that right?

Speaker 2 That is exactly right. And what people don't realize is that charisma, more than any other attribute, is the single most important aspect of you being successful.
It helps you in your relationships.

Speaker 2 It helps you professionally. It helps people take you seriously.
It helps you also feel more confident and purposeful in your interactions.

Speaker 2 So charisma is that missing ingredient that we need to trigger or activate our success.

Speaker 1 Wow. I mean, you hear so much about confidence.
You hear about extroverts versus introverts. But how is it that charisma impacts all those things more than your personality or confidence?

Speaker 2 When research looks at highly charismatic people, they find that we are looking for people who are signaling high charisma because it shows all those other things.

Speaker 2 Highly charismatic people are confident. They are competent.
They are warm. They are likable.
And so the most amazing aspect of charisma is it can be learned. It is not an innate trait.

Speaker 2 You don't have to be born with it or not. Anyone can learn how to be more charismatic through a very specific set of cues, the social signals humans send to each other.

Speaker 1 That's crazy because you know what you're basically saying? It's possible for anyone to learn how to have the it factor.

Speaker 2 Yes. The hard part about this is you can be the warmest, most competent person in the world.
But if you don't show those signals, the world does not believe you.

Speaker 2 And this comes from amazing research out of Princeton University, which found that under signaling, so not signaling enough, and this is what happens, I think, with very smart people.

Speaker 2 So most of my students are off the charts intelligence, high achievers, and they think, oh, my smarts will speak for me. Right.
I'm really smart. I can make it through anything.
I'm super prepared.

Speaker 2 I have great answers. And the problem is they under signal the warmth and competence cues.
And what Dr.

Speaker 2 Fisk found, the creator of this research, she found that without enough warmth, people do not believe your competence.

Speaker 2 So the problem of smart people is they think their smarts work for them, but if they're not using the right signals, the world literally cannot believe them.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 is this why charisma matters?

Speaker 2 So I think of charisma like a lubricant, right?

Speaker 1 So when we're sexy.

Speaker 1 That's not exactly the word I was that I thought that or the metaphor I thought you were going to use. Okay.
So charisma is a social lubricant, everybody.

Speaker 2 Okay. It makes it smooth, you know, it makes it smooth.
Because listen, my interactions, my social interactions before I learned this science were like the opposite of smooth.

Speaker 2 They were crunchy, like not in a good way.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you said you were awkward. Give us an example.
Come on, Vanessa.

Speaker 2 So awkwardness. Let's talk about awkwardness is one of my favorite topics.
Awkwardness dresses up in different ways. So my awkwardness, and everyone has different things.

Speaker 2 So I'm curious, Mel, if you have any awkwardness, how it dresses up. Some people, they feel awkward because of fear.

Speaker 2 They're fear of being rejected, fear of being criticized, fear of saying something silly or sounding stupid. And so their awkwardness will dress up as shutting down.

Speaker 2 So for me, my awkwardness, I'm an overthinker. I'm the person who I get in bed at the end of the night and I literally rethink every conversation I've had the whole day,

Speaker 1 right?

Speaker 2 Or like I overanalyze my answers before I even say anything which makes me a terrible conversationalist listener so my awkwardness would make me shut down and so my introverts listening this is often what happens when you feel awkward you're afraid of a silence or being judged you shut in you close down you stop talking other people my extroverts their awkwardness dresses up as something else their awkwardness dresses up as showing off over the top being a drama queen, talking too much.

Speaker 2 Some of my extroverted awkward friends, they'll say, sometimes I just can't stop talking. Literally, my mouth just keeps going.

Speaker 2 And so awkwardness is this really interesting way that we try to cover our fear.

Speaker 2 And so when I say I'm a recovering awkward person, I've had to conquer a lot of internal fear to be able to have interactions that I desperately, desperately want to have.

Speaker 2 That could be in a professional setting, sharing my ideas, but it also could be just. trying to make good friends, trying to be open with my partner.

Speaker 2 And so I think that charisma is this lubricant because awkwardness makes our relationships, our conversations, our communication crunchy, awkward, halty.

Speaker 2 We talk too much. We talk too little.
There's an awkward silence. We don't know what to do with our hands, right? We're like, what do I do with my body language? We make weird faces.

Speaker 2 We awkwardly nervous laugh. So my goal with charisma, what I've found is that it's a smoother.
It's a lubricant, which I just, we have to stick with that metaphor.

Speaker 1 Well, it's hilarious. And it also makes it,

Speaker 1 when you use the word crunchy about those moments when you feel awkward, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 1 Because whether you're an over-talker, over-sharer, nervous laugh, interrupting people because you're extroverted, but you feel afraid of how people are going to view you, or whether you withdraw because you're afraid.

Speaker 1 That crunchiness is that sort of disruption you feel internally.

Speaker 1 And so I love this idea that charisma, which you say is a skill that anybody can develop, that charisma helps you be yourself and it helps you be more influential and it helps you enjoy social settings, whether you're introverted or extroverted.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm kind of getting from this.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's it. The key here is the balance.
Most of us have an imbalance. So there's four segments of the population.
This is what the research finds.

Speaker 2 There's the sweet spot of highly charismatic people, high warmth, high competence. That's the rare birds among us.

Speaker 2 So if we're around someone who's warm and competent, it makes us feel like our best selves.

Speaker 2 If you think about the most charismatic person you know, so just think about them for a second, they make you feel better. They make you feel like your best self.

Speaker 1 Now, can you give us an example of somebody who is highly charismatic?

Speaker 2 Let's do the classic. Oprah.
Okay. Oprah is highly charismatic.
And here's why. She can be in an interview and she can make the other person feel so comfortable.
They share their darkest secrets.

Speaker 2 That's warmth. That's trust.
She can cry with the other person. She can mimic their facial expressions.

Speaker 2 Her warmth literally draws out other people's warmth. However, you also take her very seriously.
You know, she is smart. She knows her answers.
You can't sneak something by her.

Speaker 2 And that's her signaling, I'm competent. I'm going to make sure that I get to the truth here.
You can rely on me to ask the hard questions.

Speaker 2 So that's an example of someone who's very a nice balance and kind of uses her warmth and competence as a dial.

Speaker 1 Can you give me an example of the

Speaker 1 kind of charisma that is the quiet type of introverted person? Like, who is that person out in the world?

Speaker 2 Okay, so this is a historical example, but it's a great one. Jackie Kennedy.
So Jackie Kennedy is an interesting case study.

Speaker 1 Ooh, Princess Die, too

Speaker 2 yeah and she's the she's the perfect example of someone very introverted she was a very introverted person but she knew that to achieve her goals to be able to make an impact on people she had to find her flavor now that did not mean that she was out there making speeches every day but her character her charisma was so powerful that people were drawn to her and that wasn't because she was loud That wasn't because she used more words, but she had that unique kind of quiet power that made people drawn, that people were drawn to.

Speaker 2 And she had to learn it. She had to learn how to harness that.

Speaker 1 That's really interesting.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Let's look at, for example, Steve Jobs.
So Steve Jobs.

Speaker 1 Zero warmth.

Speaker 2 Zero warmth. So he is the perfect example of high, high, high competence.

Speaker 2 He's constantly signaling, take me seriously. I'm powerful.

Speaker 2 And most importantly, what highly smart people don't realize is if they over signal competence, people see them as cold, intimidating, not a collaborator, not a team player, hard to talk to.

Speaker 2 So yes, he was brilliant, but his lack of warmth made people feel like he wasn't a collaborator. He wasn't a good team player.
And his legacy is changing the world, but also being not kind.

Speaker 2 So that's an example of high competence.

Speaker 2 My highly smart people, my engineers, my really technically brilliant folks, they often get trapped in high competence because they don't know how to signal warmth.

Speaker 2 By the way, they might have all the intention to be a collaborator, but we are not taught how to signal warmth. And so they go, well, guess I don't know how to do that.

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 2 That's one bucket. And by the way, so if you're, as you're listening, I want you to think about what sounds like you, what feels like you.
So do you feel like you have the balance?

Speaker 2 Do you feel like, no, you're off the charts in competence? You know, you're high in competence if people always think you're in charge.

Speaker 2 You know, you're high in competence if people have ever told you that you're intimidating or hard to talk to.

Speaker 2 You know that you're in a relationship or have a partner who's high in competence if they constantly Google fact check you.

Speaker 2 So highly competent folks, their mission is to get it right. They are very

Speaker 2 dominated by the idea of get it right, get the facts. And so they'll be in a conversation with you and be like, let me Google fact check that.
Let me just see if that's.

Speaker 1 that's right. Do they share their emotions if they're high competent?

Speaker 2 Usually less. They're much less comfortable sharing their emotions because vulnerability, sharing emotions is an aspect of warmth.

Speaker 2 So that is one way that competent people can hack warmth is sharing more of their emotions. But usually they don't like that as much because emotions aren't correct, right?

Speaker 2 It's hard to be right with emotions.

Speaker 2 So they'll often, the reason why a highly competent partner, I have one of those, is I'm going to use the word afraid of emotions or uncomfortable with emotions is because it can't be fact checked.

Speaker 2 If someone says as a partner, I feel upset with you, how do you verify that? How do you fix it? Where's the solution? A highly competent partner, they love solving things, right?

Speaker 2 You come to them and you're like, I'm just having a bad day. And they're like, let me fix that for you.
And you're like, I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to listen.
They're like,

Speaker 2 no, I don't know how to do that because they're fixers.

Speaker 1 Got it.

Speaker 2 highly competent people, you have that super strength of getting it right being fixers. Warm folks, my warm folks.
So my highly warm folks, you are filled with empathy.

Speaker 2 You're cheerleaders, your supporters, your mission. So if confident people want to get it right, highly warm people want to be liked.
They want everyone to feel good.

Speaker 2 They want everyone to feel comfortable.

Speaker 2 Typically, highly warm folks, their super strength is empathy, nurturing, making people feel loved and warm, but they often give too much of themselves in sacrifice. of being liked.

Speaker 1 Got it. So like people pleasing doormats is what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 That's the far end. People pleasing is what they struggle with.
And so, I think that highly warm folks in the workplace,

Speaker 2 this is the other really important thing to understand:

Speaker 2 if you are highly warm, you are fighting a battle in yourself, which is your desire to be liked gets in the way of your need to be respected.

Speaker 1 Okay, stop.

Speaker 1 I need everybody to hear that.

Speaker 1 If you default and you are too warm, especially at work, your need to be liked is getting in the way of your need to be respected.

Speaker 1 And when you are too focused on getting it right and too focused on being smart and too focused on dominating the conversation or the knowledge bank, your need to be right

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 dominating

Speaker 1 how did you say your need to be right.

Speaker 2 Your need to be right is getting in the way of your need to be liked.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.
Your need to be right is getting in the way of your need to be liked. That even rhymes.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 I didn't even do that on purpose.

Speaker 1 You know what I love about your research? What I love is that, first of all, you're about to teach us all

Speaker 1 how to become more charismatic. You're also about to give us hacks related to body language and getting intentional about what we're displaying and signaling.

Speaker 1 But what I love about your research is that I need everybody listening to understand something.

Speaker 1 Right now, you are unintentionally

Speaker 1 sending signals and cues to people.

Speaker 2 That's it.

Speaker 1 You are walking around and whether it's a negative mood or it's anxiety or it's insecurity or it's awkwardness or you're so focused on being right that you don't realize that you're sending signals and cues that make people not like you and not trust you, or you're so focused on being liked and that you're sending these signals of being a warm pushover, which is why you're never respected and why you're passed over at work.

Speaker 1 And so, what I love about this research is that you're helping us focus on two

Speaker 1 factors that you can display that will increase influence, impact, and income. And it doesn't matter whether you're shy or whether you're bossy.
These strategies are going to work for all of us.

Speaker 1 One thing I would love for you to talk about before we talk about the cues is this.

Speaker 1 So, in that study that you cited from Princeton, they also found that

Speaker 1 charisma accounts for 82%

Speaker 1 of how people evaluate you. So can you unpack that? Because I think it's really important for us to understand.

Speaker 1 This is not only a good idea because you're going to make more money, be more influential and make a bigger impact. Based on the science,

Speaker 1 this is how people view you.

Speaker 1 And so can you unpack this for us?

Speaker 2 So I was also shocked by that number. By the way, it's very rare to see a number that big in science, right? Especially because if I were to ask ask someone, how do you want to be perceived?

Speaker 2 You're going to get a list of 100 adjectives, funny, extroverted, bubbly, attractive, whatever. Actually, when someone is interacting with us, and by the way, this is not just in person.

Speaker 2 This is on your LinkedIn profile, in Zoom, on the phone, in chats, in Slack, in DMs, in your email inbox. People are using warmth and competent signals to make up 82% of their judgment of you.

Speaker 1 Okay, stop. Everybody, did you just hear that?

Speaker 1 People are using warmth and competence, which are the two things that make up your charisma.

Speaker 1 82% of how people judge you, evaluate you, size you up, decide to hire or date you has to do with whether or not you're warm or competent. That's bananas.

Speaker 2 It's bananas and it's not just your first impression. It's actually every single impression.

Speaker 2 So yes, your first impression is important, but even if you don't feel you've had a good first impression, that's okay. We are re-evaluating this on every Zoom call.

Speaker 2 If someone sees your name pop up in their inbox, they're also wondering,

Speaker 2 is this a warm and competent email? In other words, can I trust this email? Can I rely on this email? The more warm and competent your email is, the faster response rates you're going to get.

Speaker 2 We as humans have a really hard time responding to, connecting with, building rapport with, being impacted by people who under signal or people who signal in an imbalanced way.

Speaker 2 So what we're talking about here, that 82% is making it easier for people to interact with you. I believe that your warmth and competence tells the world how they should treat you.

Speaker 1 Wow. And here's what I believe, Vanessa.
You want to hear what I believe, Vanessa?

Speaker 1 I believe we all have a huge blind spot when it comes to what we're signaling other people, that you may think you know.

Speaker 1 how you come across and what you're displaying, but I have a feeling that we are about to learn from Vanessa that we have a massive blind spot when it comes to to warmth and confidence and how you're displaying charisma or not.

Speaker 1 So how can we, number one, figure out how charismatic we are? What do we do, Vanessa? Okay.

Speaker 2 All right. So first,

Speaker 2 the first kind of diagnostic that I talked about was just which one sounds more like you? That's where we start, right? So where do you think you fall?

Speaker 2 You hire in warmth, higher in competence, you have a balance, or are you under signaling?

Speaker 2 right do you shut down and not signal enough okay the next thing you can do is you can actually do our diagnostic it's totally free And I love this because there's two ways that you want to, I want you to do this.

Speaker 2 You can take this as many times as you want. The reason I put it up in the research is because I want people to be able to take a diagnostic, see how they come across.

Speaker 2 So they're going to be very simple.

Speaker 1 Does that mean a test?

Speaker 2 Yes, it's a test. Okay.

Speaker 2 Scienceofpeople.com/slash charisma.

Speaker 1 We will put that in the show notes. So you can take this test as many times as you want.

Speaker 2 And so first I'm going to take it as you. I'm going to take it as you.
And I want you to take it not on your ideal self, your real self.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. So on a normal day, I want you to screenshot your results.
Then what I want you to do is I want you to do a 360 review.

Speaker 2 I want you to send the quiz to a partner, a friend, a colleague, and ask them to take it as you.

Speaker 2 This is the key because it's going to show you how other people see you and have them screenshot the results and then go to dinner because it'll be a great conversation.

Speaker 1 So do you find that most people have no idea how they're showing up with other people you were right most of us have a blind spot okay so

Speaker 1 i

Speaker 1 i feel like everybody needs to grab a pen and a piece of paper because we are about to get the cheat sheet everybody for how to nail charisma whether you're in a virtual meeting, whether you're in an interview, whether you're sending an email.

Speaker 1 So what are your your top tips for displaying charisma and being more influential on a Zoom call?

Speaker 2 So what I want to do is actually want to do the first 10 seconds of your video, the first minute of your video.

Speaker 2 That actually helps us break it down because actually the first 10 seconds are really important, the first 10 seconds of you being on camera. Really?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 because it sets you up for the rest of the time. So if you can nail your first 10 seconds, it makes the next hour easier.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 I want to dig into that, but we got to take a break to hear from sponsors. Let's talk about that when we come back.

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Speaker 1 So you're about to tell us in the first 10 seconds of a Zoom meeting, you must do this in order to be influential. What do you do?

Speaker 2 Okay, first 10 seconds. Number one, in the first second, you should try to show your hands.

Speaker 2 I know this sounds really weird, but they use eye tracking studies and they found that one of the first places the brain looks when they're trying to gauge someone's warmth is hands. Why?

Speaker 2 This is actually a survival mechanism. Back in our caveman days, if we were approached by a stranger caveman, we wanted to see if they were carrying a rock or a spear, right? So this still remains.

Speaker 2 Something interesting happens. I'll do a little experiment for you.
So if you're watching the video, I'm going to hide my hands. If you're listening, I'm hiding my hands right now.

Speaker 2 The moment you can't see someone's hands, so if I were to give this entire interview with my hands behind my back, something interesting would happen in your brain and Mel's brain, which is that your amygdala would begin to activate.

Speaker 2 And that's because when you can't see someone's hands, you wonder,

Speaker 2 what is she holding?

Speaker 2 What's her intention? And so the longer I keep my hands behind my back, the more distracted you should become.

Speaker 1 My hands are behind my back.

Speaker 2 You want them to come back out, right?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay, they're back.

Speaker 1 Okay, there they are.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 2 So much better. So this is a survival mechanism.
The moment you hop on video, walk on stage, walk into a boardroom.

Speaker 1 Like put your hands up, like, hey, everybody. Hey, good morning.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. So the first 10 seconds, we turn on the cameras coming on.
We put the hands up. Hi, everybody.

Speaker 2 Or just one, right? Like a little wave. Nice to see you.
You walk into a crowded restaurant to see your date. Hey, good to see you.
That hand gesture immediately deactivates their fear processing.

Speaker 2 Easy. Okay.
So I want them visible. Second little bonus tip here is the space, the distance.
And I literally want you to measure this. The distance between your nose and the camera.

Speaker 2 The reason for this is because in person, we are very aware of what's called proxemic zones. Proxemic zones are the space between people.

Speaker 2 So we know, and this is a little bit different culture to culture.

Speaker 2 So hand gestures, universally, we like to see hands, but culture to culture, we also like to know how, what's the distance between people.

Speaker 2 So I highly recommend make sure your camera is at least a foot and a half away from your face. Okay.

Speaker 2 The reason for this is because imagine if I were to give, now I'm going to get really close to the camera. Imagine if I were to give my entire interview really close.

Speaker 1 You'd be like, Vanessa, back up, back up. Oh my God, I totally like lean into the camera.
I, I, I, I have no space above my head. I like my whole face right in there.

Speaker 1 So maybe I got to back off a little bit on the camera.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about this for a second. Okay.
So there are no bad cues in the sense of they're all purposeful. When you are really close, and I love your videos.
I've seen your close-up videos.

Speaker 2 You should know. on purpose if you are very close to the camera right up in your face you are signaling intimacy

Speaker 2 You are signaling, I'm right up in it. And that's because as humans, there are four different proxemic zones, the public zone, the social zone, the personal zone, and the intimate zone.

Speaker 2 We reserve the intimate zone, which is zero to 18 inches away, zero to a foot and a half away, for people we feel really close with. So our partners, our parents.
Sometimes our best friends.

Speaker 2 And so actually, when I watch your videos where you're really close, I feel like we're besties.

Speaker 1 Now, tell me, tell me everything.

Speaker 2 So I would say reserve those videos for your intimate moments.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 You're literally signaling them. The normal Zoom call, I want you at least a foot and a half away.
It also helps you show your hands. It helps have those gestures.

Speaker 1 So smart. Okay.
So the first 10, the first 10 seconds, everybody, we got the hands up and we got to be about a foot and a half away because this is, oh, and there's more?

Speaker 2 Oh, there's more. Okay.
There's so much more. Okay, second, vocal.
So that was a nonverbal cue.

Speaker 2 I want you to make sure you are not accidentally using the question inflection on your name or an important information.

Speaker 2 The question inflection is when we go up at the end of our sentence, so it sounds like we're asking a question.

Speaker 2 And so often we found in our lab that people would use the question inflection in the first 10 seconds, which made people doubt them.

Speaker 2 So I want to share this study because this study gave me the chills when I first heard it. And I think it's so incredibly important.
for people who are listening who want to be taken seriously.

Speaker 2 So what they did in this study, I promise I won't get too into the science.

Speaker 2 Very simply, they brought doctors into their lab and they wanted to know if people would change their perceptions of charisma based on their voice tone.

Speaker 2 So they asked the doctors to record 10-second voice tone clips. So these clips, they had to say their name, where they worked, and their specialty.
So it sounded like this. Hi, my name is Dr.
Edwards.

Speaker 2 I specialize in oncology and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. They took these clips and they warbled the words.

Speaker 2 So you could hear the volume, the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said so that sounded like this

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 they asked participants to then rate these doctors on warmth and competence based on the warbled thing that you just did yes so imagine that i just did that and then i asked you do you like this person is this person smart so participants rated these gobbledygook clips on do they like this person this person smart.

Speaker 2 They found the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 2 The doctors with the lowest warmth and competence ratings simply based on their voice tone had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.

Speaker 2 This implies that we don't just dislike people based on their skills. We dislike people based on our perception of their skills and that happens within the first few seconds of hearing them.

Speaker 2 Wow. Pattern,

Speaker 2 it was such a shockwave through the community because

Speaker 2 these are doctors who are very well trained. What they found was patterns.
There were certain doctors who across the board were rated as highly charismatic from gobbledygook.

Speaker 2 And there were certain doctors that over and over again, they were rated as not very smart, not very likable. Here was the biggest pattern, up talk.

Speaker 2 The doctors who had an introduction like this.

Speaker 2 Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards.
I specialize in oncology and I work at Children's Transparent Hospital.

Speaker 2 Right? What it did is it changes the way that we listen.

Speaker 2 They found that when we hear the question inflection accidentally used on a statement, our prefrontal cortex shifts from listening to scrutinizing.

Speaker 2 We think,

Speaker 2 Why did they just question themselves? I guess I should question them. We hear this all the time in sales calls where someone is killing it in a pitch or in a salary negotiation.

Speaker 2 I'd love to work for your company. I think I'd be a great fit for you.
I love your mission. And I'm really looking for a salary range of over $100,000.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 everybody, did you hear that question? I'm really looking for a salary range of $100,000.

Speaker 2 When you ask your price, you are begging people to negotiate with you. You're telling people, I don't really believe this number, and you shouldn't believe it either.

Speaker 2 So, what happens in the first 10 seconds is we're nervous, right? We're really nervous. We've been holding our breath, we're waiting for Zoom call.

Speaker 2 And so, we accidentally give away all of our vocal power in the first 10 seconds. We say, Hey, everyone, my name is Vanessa.
We'll get started in a few.

Speaker 1 Whoa, okay, now you have three

Speaker 1 research-backed

Speaker 1 incredibly subtle but profound behavior changes that you need to make immediately.

Speaker 2 Immediately.

Speaker 1 Hands up.

Speaker 1 You got to have the right distance, which is a foot to a foot and a half, nose to camera. No up talk, everybody.
And I would imagine that most people

Speaker 1 don't realize that they do it.

Speaker 2 No idea.

Speaker 2 That's why seeing yourself, that's why we don't realize when we walk into a salary negotiation or we walk into a pitch meeting with a client or we go on a date and we think it went well, right?

Speaker 2 How often have people been sideswiped and they think, yeah, I think that went great, but I didn't get a call back or I didn't get a second date.

Speaker 2 It's because you are accidentally telling the world how to treat you. And if you undersignal warmth, people don't like you.
If you undersignal competence, people don't take you seriously.

Speaker 1 And the up talking, everyone,

Speaker 1 is when you're under signaling competence. You might be the most competent and

Speaker 1 qualified person, but if you walk into that interview and you don't, you know, not sure, like my last job was great.

Speaker 1 I think I'd do great here. I, you know, 100,000, that would be, that'd be great.
Like

Speaker 1 you just shot yourself in the foot. Yeah.
And you don't even realize it because you don't hear it. I bet people do this with dating all the time.

Speaker 2 All the time. And the problem is it's a permission-seeking behavior.

Speaker 2 So if we really get down to the root cause of it, which is one thing that fascinates me is this is appeasement body language, right? So this is, do you like me? Do you agree with me?

Speaker 2 So oftentimes highly warm people who really, really desperately want to be liked use more up talk because they're asking, do you agree? Do you like me?

Speaker 2 Crazy thing.

Speaker 1 How annoying.

Speaker 2 Opposite effect. Right.
So that I also want you to get really to the root cause of if you hear yourself do up talk. And by the way, please go listen to your voice recordings.

Speaker 2 If you've sent any voice recordings or voice memos in the past few days go re-listen to them and see if you accidentally use up talk and go re-record okay when we come back here's what i want to know coach us on how we stop using up talk

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Speaker 1 So how do you coach somebody who has a style of speaking where they naturally end sentences

Speaker 1 with this up talk? So it's almost like you've got a statement and as you speak it, it sounds like a question at the end.

Speaker 1 And do women do this more than men?

Speaker 2 Yes. So women do this more than men.
Also, the research finds that women typically, but not always, are seen as higher in warmth.

Speaker 2 And that's because from a very young age, women are often taught to be liked. And so they tend to dial up their warmth earlier.
Typically, but not always, men are seen as higher in competence.

Speaker 2 And that's because often men are told to be right.

Speaker 2 So we also have to be aware of those gender differences. So yes, women typically more often use up talk or high warmth.
So luckily, this is actually a very easy thing to fix. Okay.

Speaker 2 We're going to do it with breath and pausing. So one of the things that can happen with up talk is we're nervous and we're speaking very quickly.

Speaker 2 And so what I want you to think about is what do you want to say with purpose and how can you deliver it with purpose? So there's three kinds of inflection.

Speaker 2 There's up talk, so going up at the end of our sentence. There's neutral, going up, going, say neutral at the end of our sentence.

Speaker 2 And there's the downward inflection, which is very commanding, which is going down at the end of our sentence. Okay, so all three of those things signal something very, very different.

Speaker 2 What I want you to pay attention to is the tension in your vocal cords. So when we are tense, when we're nervous, we tend to take in a breath and talk at the top of our breath.

Speaker 2 It's really, really hard to sound confident when we're up here. So what I want you to do is when you say hello or your first few words, I want you to speak on the out breath.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 What most people do is they hold their breath before they get on a Zoom call or a phone call.

Speaker 1 So they go, hello, all the way up here.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, you're right. Cause you're like, hi.

Speaker 2 Hi. Hi.
Oh, so good to see you.

Speaker 2 So we did this experiment where we had people submit recordings of important phone calls. And we found the highest part of the entire call, up talk and vocal tone, was the first 10 seconds.

Speaker 2 Literally, people would go, hey, it's so good to see you. So how's it going?

Speaker 1 That's a thousand percent right.

Speaker 2 So this is really easy to fix.

Speaker 1 What do you

Speaker 2 Instead of holding your breath, I want you to speak on the out breath. So, let's do a little experiment.

Speaker 2 I want you to hear the highest end of your range. So, the highest end of your range is when you speak at the top of your breath.

Speaker 2 So, on the count of three, I want us to say, and wherever you are, you can do this in your car, tell your kids to do it with you.

Speaker 2 So, I want you to take in a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath. So, it's going to sound like this: one, two, three, hello.

Speaker 2 So, you want to try it with me, Mel?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 One, two, three.

Speaker 1 Hello,

Speaker 1 hello, yeah, hi, It's very high.

Speaker 2 That's the highest end of your breath. If you hear your rain going up there, you are speaking too high.
You hear yourself go there.

Speaker 2 What I want you to do is try to relax your vocal cords by speaking on the out breath.

Speaker 1 Hello. This time, there you go.
That was it.

Speaker 2 So you just heard the difference. So here's my difference.
Ready?

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 2 Hello.

Speaker 2 Those are both me, but they sound totally different. So this time, what we're going to do is we're going to take a deep breath in on the count of three.
And I want you to say hello on the out breath.

Speaker 2 I want you to say in a downward inflection okay ready one two three hello hello

Speaker 1 nice

Speaker 1 sounding good yes okay so signaling competence

Speaker 1 uh we now have a bunch of things that you can do including and probably one of the most important is learning how to take a breath and then talk on the out breath yes what are mistakes that introverts make when it comes to body language Okay, so one of the biggest mistakes that we have identified,

Speaker 2 there's a lot of them, is with our facial expressions. So I think with our facial expressions, we forget how rich our face is in demonstrating emotions or cueing emotions.

Speaker 2 So a big mistake that I see is people will fake smile. I love smiling, but there is nothing worse than fake smiling.
I do not believe in toxic positivity.

Speaker 2 So people have been told, smile, smile more, which I think is like the worst advice, right? I'm like, smile purposefully, don't smile more.

Speaker 2 So a really simple mistake is someone will say, yeah, I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 2 Incongruent. Incongruent.
So what will happen is introvert really wants to show up as their best self. They come with the best intention, or someone will hop on a video call.

Speaker 2 They're trying to be positive. And so they'll have a lot of incongruent messages by trying to show warmth with a fake smile.
The problem is Dr.

Speaker 2 Barbara Wilde and her associates, they actually looked at at fake smiling. And what they did is they showed people pictures of smiling people, fake smiling people, and neutral people.

Speaker 2 She showed people pictures of real smiling people and people caught the happiness. It actually affected their positive mood.
They felt happier. When people saw the fake smiles, they caught nothing.

Speaker 2 Fake happiness makes you less and memorable. Nothing happens.

Speaker 2 So the biggest mistake that will happen with introverts is they want to come across as warm and their only tool in their toolkit is smiling. The good thing is there are many other warmth cues.

Speaker 1 So what are the other warmth cues that you can use? Okay.

Speaker 2 So I would, if you're going to smile, smile for real. Okay.
Please, please go look at your LinkedIn profile picture. Please, please go look at your dating profile pictures.

Speaker 2 I either want you neutral, sexy, or smiling all the way. No fake smiles.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So make sure that smile is all the way up into your eyes because if you have a fake smile in your LinkedIn profile picture, you are literally signaling fake happiness, inauthenticity.

Speaker 2 So, if you don't want to actually smile, that is totally okay. That's not your only warmth.
Cue here are your other warmth options. One, a head nod.
So, a slow triple nod, one, two, three,

Speaker 1 is an immediate warmth option. Oh, one, two, three.
Okay, we can do that, people. Yes, easy.

Speaker 2 So, and by the way, the funny thing about this, the research found, this just tickles me that when someone does a slow triple nod,

Speaker 2 the other person speaks 67% longer.

Speaker 2 Wow. It's like a nonverbal dot, dot, dot.
You're literally saying to someone, tell me more. I want to listen.
I want to hear you. So a slow triple nod, very easy.
You don't have to smile.

Speaker 2 It just, it's a, it's a warmth cue. The other thing that we found, we did this in LinkedIn profile pictures.
If you add a simple head tilt,

Speaker 2 you are seen as warmer.

Speaker 2 So if I tilt my head to the side, this is a universal response. If I want to hear something better, so if I say, Mel, do you hear that? We automatically tilt our head and expose our ear.

Speaker 2 That's a way that we want to hear better.

Speaker 2 And so when you are on a video call on a date in your LinkedIn profile picture, if you want to be seen as warm, you can tilt your head to the side as if to say, I am deeply listening.

Speaker 2 I am really trying to hear you. And it's much more natural than smiling maniacally.

Speaker 1 This is fascinating. So we've got the triple knot, everybody.
We've got smile with your eyes. We've got tilt your head slightly.
What are other warm cues?

Speaker 2 Okay, so other warm cues, vocal. So let's talk about vocal.
So those were three three nonverbal cues. Vocal is the one that we often forget.
You have a lot of power in your voice.

Speaker 2 So another warmth vocal cue is what I call vocalizations.

Speaker 2 Ooh, do we love a vocalization? So a vocalization is surround sound listening. It's it's showing that you're listening.
So this is going to immediately make me sound warmer.

Speaker 1 Oh, I just did that. Ooh, I'm very warm.

Speaker 2 Yes. So actually, you have a very good balance smell of warmth and competence.
I was going to say you when you asked for an example, but I was like, that's way too brown nosy. So I didn't.
But

Speaker 2 you have a very good warmth and competence because you will vocalize for me. When you nod at me, I can see you nodding right now.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I'm just doing it naturally.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that encourages me as a speaker.
I'm doing good. That makes my crunchiness smoother.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 that's so awesome.

Speaker 2 So your warmth cues are gifts. to awkward people.
When you show someone who's crunchy, awkward, afraid, I'm listening to you. Mm, that was interesting.
Oh, aha.

Speaker 2 You are gifting them lubricant. You are saying, you got this, girl.
Like, I'm listening. I am hearing you.
This is super smooth, which then makes me more smooth.

Speaker 2 And so there's two sides of why I wrote this book. Yes, I want you to be more charismatic, but I also want you to be more inspiring.

Speaker 2 I want you to be contagious in a way that's gifting warmth and competence. And so, adding vocalizations is a very easy way, especially for my introverts.

Speaker 2 Remember, my introverts, I want to teach you how to be heard without being loud. So, nonverbal cues, vocalizations, that's a way for you to participate in conversation without saying a word.
Right?

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 1 that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 All right, do that again. So,

Speaker 1 what are the other ones other than

Speaker 2 oh, ah,

Speaker 2 wow,

Speaker 2 what?

Speaker 2 Those are all warmth vocalizations. In fact, doing them right now to kind of give you the warm and fuzzies, like a little bit, should be like, mmm, that feels so good.

Speaker 2 I say vocalizations are kind of like a warming blanket. It like makes the other person feel like, wow, I'm doing so good.

Speaker 1 You're doing better than good. You're doing fantastic, Vanessa.
Is there any phrase or something that you suggest?

Speaker 1 particularly somebody who's shy or introverted to say or do during a virtual meeting to be more influential?

Speaker 2 We didn't even talk about words. So words are an incredibly important aspect of our charisma that we also need to address, right?

Speaker 2 So for verbal power, what you want to do, especially for my introverts, and especially on a video call, is use warmth, verbal cues.

Speaker 2 We actually did a study where I wanted to know if saying warm words could stimulate connection. So in other words, I'm on a video call.

Speaker 2 If we were in person, Mel, you and and I would be hugging, we'd have, you know, high five, we'd have some sort of touch. I wanted to know, could you replace that verbally?

Speaker 2 What we found was we had people wear software that measures their skin conductance, their physiology. When I say, I'm sending a virtual high five,

Speaker 2 I wish I could give you a digital hug, I'm giving you a warm wave from here. When I say those words, it actually triggers a physiological response on your skin.

Speaker 2 So one thing that you can do in the very start of a call or the very end of call is, oh, I wish I could give you a hug. A virtual one will have to do.
Oh, or this has been so lovely talking to you.

Speaker 2 I just feel so much warmth and I just had such a great time connecting with you.

Speaker 2 Using warm words, connection, warmth, trust, hug, handshake, they actually trigger a physiological response in the other person.

Speaker 2 So, if you can use those warm words, it is a very easy way to trigger more warmth.

Speaker 1 That's fantastic.

Speaker 1 Okay, terrific. What are the danger zone cues on a virtual meeting? What should you never do?

Speaker 2 Okay, so great. Okay, so danger zone cues in a virtual meeting.
One, I always, always, always, always want you to front with the camera. So research is very, very good.

Speaker 1 What does that mean front with the camera?

Speaker 2 Fronting. Okay, so when we are aligned on parallel lines with someone, our brain likes it.
So fronting is when I angle my toes, my torso, and my top towards the camera.

Speaker 2 Research has found that if I were to give the entire interview with one shoulder angled back and my toes angled out, it would actually make it hard for you to believe me.

Speaker 2 It would make it really hard for you to open up to me.

Speaker 1 That's really interesting.

Speaker 2 And so a mistake that I often see on Zoom calls is people will either angle out or the worst of the worst, they have their camera on their side and they're typing like this.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 yes, I hate that. I hate that.
I'm like, just turn the damn camera off.

Speaker 2 Yes, I would rather. So one thing I want you to make sure of is your setup.
Not only are you a foot and a half away, but you are on parallel lines with the other person.

Speaker 2 So you are angling your toes, your torso, and your head towards them. This is both on Zoom and in person.

Speaker 2 Even in person, when someone is kind of angled out and they're trying to talk to you, you can literally feel the disengagement.

Speaker 2 The reason for this is because our toes are sort of secret windows into the soul. as I like to call them.

Speaker 2 Your toes, the way that they're pointed, usually indicate a secret direction that you want to go.

Speaker 2 So I have have noticed anecdotally that when someone is ready to leave a conversation, you're at a networking event or at a holiday party and they have to go to the bathroom or they're kind of done, they will angle their toes towards the exit.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Their body is like, we got to go. We want to go.

Speaker 2 So, if I'm angled away from you with my toes angled towards the exit, you're subconsciously picking up on the fact that part of me is left the conversation.

Speaker 1 Yeah. All right.
Now, what are strategies for dialing up charisma and influence, warmth, and competency in emails?

Speaker 2 Okay, emails, yes. So, what I like in an email is I want you to have warm words, a couple of warm words.
Warm words trigger the warm and fuzzies. So, so happy to connect with you last week.

Speaker 2 I'm so looking forward to collaborating in our meeting next week. When people read words like collaborate, they are literally more likely to be collaborative.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So, you are actually gifting behavior. What I want you to think about when you're writing an email, this is a really weird way to write an email, but it works.

Speaker 2 How do I want someone to think, feel, and behave after reading this email? If you want them to be warm and collaborative and open and happy and trustworthy, use those words.

Speaker 2 You are literally gifting them that feeling. But if you want them to get it done, be productive and efficient, let's brainstorm, let's power through, onwards, let's do it.

Speaker 2 I want you to gift more competent words. So the perfect email has a balance of let's connect, let's collaborate.
I can't wait for the meeting next week and let's blast through this agenda.

Speaker 2 I can't wait to hit our goals. We're going to do everything together onwards, Vanessa.

Speaker 1 You know what I hear is I hear enthusiasm. I hear confidence in those words.
You're displaying that, which then signals to me that I'm on a team that wants to do that.

Speaker 1 Vanessa, I freaking love you because you know what you're basically saying? It's possible for anyone to learn how to have the it factor.

Speaker 1 Yes, that is true that is absolutely true that is a skill that is learnable and anyone can learn it okay i want to take a minute on behalf of absolutely everybody listening to thank you oh it is such an honor this was so tactical

Speaker 1 this was so smart and informative.

Speaker 1 And so just thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 That was three, maybe four or five head nods in a row because I mean it and I'm going lower on my voice to command the fact that you're a freaking superstar, Vanessa. Thank you.
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for listening. And I also want to thank you for the space to talk about this and empower people.
That remember, you tell the world how it should treat you.

Speaker 2 So the more purposeful you are with your cues, the better people will treat you and you deserve that. So thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Thank you.
It's best.

Speaker 1 Wasn't that awesome? I mean, Vanessa's awesome. And you know what else is awesome? You.

Speaker 1 You are awesome. You have the it factor, and now you know how to hack charisma and how to use body language to get what you want.
And before we take off here, I want to tell you something else.

Speaker 1 I love you. I really do.
And I believe in you. And I believe in your ability and that it factor inside of you and the charisma you are going to bring to the surface and display everywhere you go.

Speaker 1 I believe that you're going to use that to create a better life. And that's why I'm here, to remind you of that twice a week, every week with this podcast.
Oh my God, I just love you.

Speaker 1 All righty, you have an awesome day now, and I'll talk to you in a few days.

Speaker 1 Charisma, charisma, charisma, charisma.

Speaker 1 Why can't I pronounce anything?

Speaker 1 Can you hear that guy outside fucking clipping the damn hedges? I literally feel like the landscape dude outside has a chainsaw that he's taking to the hedges.

Speaker 1 Why does this always happen when we turn on the microphones?

Speaker 1 Can you hear that?

Speaker 1 You can hear that. No, if I talk loud, you probably can't.
It's like there's a

Speaker 1 Formula One race going on in the front yard.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's a leaf blower. That's not a chainsaw.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.

Speaker 1 This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend.

Speaker 1 I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good.

Speaker 1 I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 1 Stitcher.

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Speaker 1 At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone.

Speaker 1 You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve.

Speaker 1 You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals.

Speaker 1 A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.