5 Things the Men in Your Life Aren’t Telling You but Need to Talk About

Speaker 1 a U.S. Bank Smartly Visa signature card, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase.
Yep, every purchase. 2% cash back on a new TV and sofa.
2% cash back on groceries.

Speaker 1 Even 2% cash back on concert tickets. Visit usbank.com slash SmartlyCard to learn more.
The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S.

Speaker 1 Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Incorporated. Some restrictions may apply.
The Mel Robbins podcast is brought to you by Sheridan.

Speaker 1 You know what's the most overlooked hotel amenity? The lobby. Usually it's just where you check in and check out, but that's all changed with Sheridan's lobbies.

Speaker 1 Redesigned as a place to work, relax, recharge. The community table doubles as your co-working space by day, your team's hangout spot at night.
Need quiet? Duck into a soundproof booth.

Speaker 1 With co-workers, reserve a tech-enabled studio space. And the all-day cafe, and more by Sheridan, fuels you for all all of it.
Sheridan, the World's Gathering Place, part of Marriott Bonvoy.

Speaker 1 Booked now via Sheridan.com. You know a big holiday tradition for us? Watching the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade.
I still watch it even though I'm a little bit older.

Speaker 1 But now I got a longer list of people to buy for, so I'm also paying attention to the parade of deals Macy's has going on.

Speaker 1 Now through November 27th, Macy's is featuring a new must-have deal every day that will last only one day.

Speaker 1 Like super cozy, ug, fluff throw, hard-working Dyson vacuum fragrances, hair products, and jewelry. Black Friday deals start November 10th.
Your daily thrill starts now.

Speaker 1 Shop now at Macy's.com or in-store. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 1 Today, I've got a special treat for you and me. Ladies and gentlemen, Christopher Robbins has agreed to come on the show today.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me, Mel.

Speaker 1 Well, I gave you no choice. We'll be honest with that.

Speaker 1 I sort of twisted your arm into this because there's a very important thing that once you shared it with me, I wanted you to share it with everybody.

Speaker 1 And I should just point out, everybody, that like a lot of our podcast episodes, we're just putting our arms around you and taking you on a walk with Chris and I today.

Speaker 1 And what's happening on our walk is there's a construction project outside. So if you hear some beep, beep, beeps or some backing up, you're just here with us in Vermont on a walk.

Speaker 2 All right, Chris?

Speaker 2 Just another day in the beep beeps.

Speaker 1 Yep, that's right.

Speaker 1 So I was talking to Chris this morning. And I think a lot of you know the story about the restaurant businesses tanking and our life savings going down the drain with it.

Speaker 1 And after Chris left that business, you took a couple years

Speaker 1 to really figure out what you were going to do next with your life and to heal a lot of went down for you personally in the wake of that experience of launching a business, pouring your heart and soul into it, and then

Speaker 2 it not working.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that you've done is you started a men's retreat called Soul Degree.

Speaker 1 It's a five-day experience where you take men out into the woods and includes yoga and journaling and guided meditation and all kinds of coaching.

Speaker 1 And so you've got one of your men's retreats coming up and you never ever talk about what happens at them. You come back and you're completely transformed.

Speaker 1 And I really respect the fact that you don't share anything because it's all confidential. But I asked you this morning.

Speaker 1 If you would just tell me, like, what are the themes that come up when you go and do a retreat with five men or you're coaching your male clients?

Speaker 1 And you said there are five very distinct themes that all the men that you work with are struggling with. And when you told them to me, I was shocked.
And I said, everybody needs to hear this.

Speaker 1 So that's what I want to talk about. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So can we go through them?

Speaker 1 What are the five things that all the men that you know and the men that have been on your retreats and the men that you coach, what are they struggling with, but not telling the people in their life that they're struggling with?

Speaker 2 We were talking about this morning is just that

Speaker 2 guys

Speaker 2 don't put themselves first. Everyone else comes first.
Men have lost touch with their own wants and needs. They struggle to even generate one.

Speaker 2 Men are lonely or friendless or lacking the ability to or the confidence to generate friendship.

Speaker 2 There's an obligation to make money for everyone or be the provider, be the protector, whatever that entails.

Speaker 2 And men often do not feel good enough.

Speaker 2 And men are seeking a deeper, more meaningful life.

Speaker 1 Well, that's a lot that's on every guy's mind. How about we dig deeper into these five things and take them one at a time? So the first one, Chris.

Speaker 2 Everyone else comes first, and that manifests or shows up often, at least with many of the men that I've engaged with, is them losing complete sight of what they need or want for themselves just because

Speaker 2 the muscle of looking out for themselves is completely lost. And it's all about everyone else.

Speaker 1 When you first shared that in the kitchen this morning, I looked at you with like my eyes crossed because I had never in a million years thought that a dude feels like everybody else comes first because every woman that I know says that everybody in her life comes first.

Speaker 1 And so it never even occurred to me that the guys walking around feel as though everybody else in the family or with their roommates or with their significant other that they come before them.

Speaker 2 I think they're putting what they perceive to be the needs of the people around them

Speaker 2 first, which means they're pouring themselves into work or,

Speaker 2 you know, other obligations, if you will.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, I have guys that have come on retreat and they haven't really even conceived of a hobby, much less

Speaker 2 what's important to them.

Speaker 1 You also explain that you have this exercise that you do with your coaching clients and that you guys do on retreat that really illustrates what you're talking about. Can you explain that?

Speaker 2 I've asked guys to take take out a piece of paper and write down specifically what they want and need, and many just draw a blank, can't fill the page. Nothing?

Speaker 2 No, they actually have to step away from the exercise and even give it a day or two before they really feel like, hmm, haven't really thought about that before.

Speaker 1 That's a layer deeper than I think what most women struggle with.

Speaker 1 Because I think at least the women that I talk to and my friends and listeners to this show that write in, you have a sense of what you need to do to put yourself first.

Speaker 1 You have a sense of what you want

Speaker 1 in terms of your own needs.

Speaker 2 And there's a longing for it.

Speaker 1 But to have an experience of life where you have so put everybody else before you that you don't even know or feel like your needs matter enough that you can't even put them on a piece of paper.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 that's a lot

Speaker 2 yeah it's it is it is tough to to swallow and you know with all due respect i think that if you look at something as basic as uh exercise for example and you see a guy spending a good bit of time exercising that's not to say that he doesn't perceive that as being a need or a want of his but there

Speaker 2 oftentimes is still a layer of obligation. I got to look good for my wife or my husband.
There's a gotta, have to.

Speaker 2 And so I'm not sure that can always fall in the appropriate category of genuinely, what do I need to feel good about myself and my life.

Speaker 1 What's the second one?

Speaker 2 I think people are

Speaker 2 I'm not sure if I'd say explicitly they're lonely, but

Speaker 2 many are friendless or have lost their way in developing friendships. The muscle has weakened as they have poured themselves into things like work and family and

Speaker 2 God forbid they running into health problems. I mean, all of these things sort of take precedent to cultivating real deep friendships.
And so

Speaker 2 particularly when you hit your 40s, 50s, I think you really have to work

Speaker 2 extra hard at cultivating

Speaker 2 and building friendship. Maybe there are people in your life that have been around since middle school or high school or college, but outside of that,

Speaker 2 especially if you're somebody that's moving or changing jobs for that matter,

Speaker 2 it can be really disruptive and

Speaker 2 be a major roadblock and then subsequently just an excuse. And then all of a sudden the guy wakes up and is like, yeah, I don't really have a whole lot of friends around me.
Wow.

Speaker 1 What about the third thing that men struggle with, but they don't really talk about?

Speaker 2 I mean, I think it's a cultural thing, of course, that men

Speaker 2 naturally still

Speaker 2 follow that societal norm of

Speaker 2 needing to be the provider and the protector or, you know, one in the same. And that.

Speaker 1 You mean like make money?

Speaker 2 It's all about making money.

Speaker 1 How so?

Speaker 2 Whether they are generating the pressure pressure upon themselves or it's coming from external forces.

Speaker 2 And I think it's probably a little bit of a mix of both, but the sense of responsibility that the more money I make, the more security and freedom and happiness I can create amongst the people around me.

Speaker 2 And so therefore, let me go back to making money.

Speaker 1 And is there also this pressure among guys that you're measured up based on how much money you make? Like you're, you know what I'm saying? Like,

Speaker 2 I think guys are being, you know, influenced by looking around or over their shoulder, or whether it's all self-created.

Speaker 2 You know, that your own, it's your own expectation level. And that was the other thing that we talked about this morning was just,

Speaker 2 I'm not good enough.

Speaker 2 I'm not living up. I'm not,

Speaker 2 I'm not reaching

Speaker 2 the goal,

Speaker 2 whatever that goal is.

Speaker 1 Well, and I can see that if you feel this sense of obligation that everybody else comes first, so much so that you're not even in touch with your own needs.

Speaker 1 And then you also have lost touch with your friends. And now you're like, My God, where do my friends go? And then you start to feel this obligation to just make money.

Speaker 1 All those things become measuring sticks where you're like, I'm just not measuring up in any of these areas.

Speaker 1 And what's interesting is that the fifth one that you said

Speaker 1 is how they ultimately end up with you as a coach or attending a retreat or being part of your online community coaching programs that you do.

Speaker 1 And I think this is an important one for everybody to hear. This is a struggle and an interest that a lot of guys aren't talking about.
And what is it?

Speaker 2 That men

Speaker 2 are seeking a deeper, more meaningful life, whatever that might mean for them.

Speaker 2 And even announcing that publicly, I think, is a little tricky at times. Not because guys are not willing to admit that once they arrive at it, but I think it takes some time to arrive at that.

Speaker 2 Like, oh yeah, there's something deeper that I want to go after that I haven't yet in my life.

Speaker 2 And like I said, that means something different to every guy out there.

Speaker 1 Well, and what's also interesting is that I think when you realize you want something deeper, it probably sets up a major conflict because that would mean everybody else might not come first.

Speaker 1 And it also means your focus shifts from merely providing and climbing the ladder and making money to something intrinsic and deeper that might not involve money at all.

Speaker 2 Well, you're right.

Speaker 2 It definitely is a pendulum swing to focusing on self, which is, like we talked about, a weak muscle. But it can also imply that something is broken and needs fixing.

Speaker 2 They need to figure out that it's not about it's broken or, you know, something has to change. It's about my heart talking.
My soul is talking here.

Speaker 1 What's normally talking for a guy?

Speaker 2 How to solve the problem, How to make the buck?

Speaker 2 How to lose the pound? Like, how to get the girl? How to,

Speaker 2 you know, what do my kids need?

Speaker 2 Is the car need fixing? Like,

Speaker 2 the list is long. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So's the heaviness.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. I feel bad.

Speaker 1 You know, I... have known you, honey, for

Speaker 1 28 years.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I would say that

Speaker 1 you struggled with all of these things for a very long time.

Speaker 1 The only time that I didn't see you struggle is when you were launching the restaurant business with your best friend, Jonathan, and when it was first happening and you were so alive and fulfilled.

Speaker 1 And then of course, as is the case with most restaurants, it was great while it was great.

Speaker 2 And then it was horrible when it was horrible.

Speaker 1 And when you came out of that restaurant business, the story that most of our listeners know, you were a shell of the person that you are now.

Speaker 1 And you really went to work on yourself and you were looking for a way to get together with other men and develop friendship and deeper meaning. And you couldn't find it.

Speaker 1 So that's why you created Soul Degree.

Speaker 1 And I think it would be helpful for everybody to hear

Speaker 1 the fact that you were struggling and how you were struggling with these five things. And I remember a particular moment in time, it was just three years ago.

Speaker 1 Where, you remember what I'm talking about?

Speaker 2 I think so.

Speaker 1 Where I had asked you if you would be a part of a focus group for the book I was researching, The High Five Habit.

Speaker 1 And I asked you if you would please, for five days in a row, just add the habit of high-fiving yourself in the mirror to your morning routine. And do you remember what you said?

Speaker 2 That it was a stupid idea.

Speaker 1 I believe it was. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
I'm not doing it.

Speaker 1 And when we come back, because I think this is a great time to take a quick pause, I want to pick up this story because at the time,

Speaker 1 I didn't realize how lonely you were. I didn't realize how much you were still struggling.

Speaker 1 I didn't realize the sense of obligation and how you were not taking care of your own needs and how lonely you were both in our marriage and in your life.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I want to go to that moment of what happened next.

Speaker 1 And we'll tell that story when we return.

Speaker 1 Stay with us.

Speaker 1 I was packing for this big trip. You know, it's always going with me? Veore.
I love this brand so much. Why do I love this brand?

Speaker 1 They make insanely comfortable clothes that look great no matter what I'm doing. Lounging at home? Love Veore.
Layering for a chili hike?

Speaker 2 Love Veore. Running errands all morning?

Speaker 1 Veore is the answer. In fact, if you see me on stage, you know what's underneath my blouse? Veore tank top.
That's right. These are the clothes I love living and working in.

Speaker 1 The Veore Performance Jogger and Halo Essential Wide Leg Pant are made with Veori's signature dream knit. And you want to know what it feels like? Dream knit.
That's why it's named that.

Speaker 1 It feels like a dream. It's their softest premium stretch fabric, lightweight, moisture wicking, effortless, anywhere.
Veori is an investment in your happiness.

Speaker 1 For the Mel Robbins podcast listeners, that's you. They are offering 20% off your first purchase.
Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash mel.

Speaker 1 That's vuori.com/slash mel. Exclusions apply.
Visit the website for full terms and conditions. The United Airlines app absolutely transforms your travel experience.
How?

Speaker 1 Well, for starters, it can save you around 30 minutes at the airport.

Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. 30 minutes.

Speaker 1 Who doesn't want time back? Especially at the airport. The app will create a personalized airport map that gives you step-by-step directions from the airport's front door to your gate.

Speaker 1 You can even see real-time flight updates like your gate number, a live countdown to boarding, all without having to unlock your phone. Once you fly with the United app, you'll never fly without it.

Speaker 1 Get it before your next trip at united.com/slash app.

Speaker 1 $1.1 billion in federal funding for public media has been eliminated. A decision that could mean fewer local reporters, fewer stories that connect us, and fewer journalists holding power to account.

Speaker 1 As the NPR network enters a new chapter, Your support is critical. Your donation today can make a difference.
Donate by visiting donate.npr.org.

Speaker 3 This podcast is sponsored by MIDI Health. Are you in midlife feeling dismissed and unheard? You're not alone.

Speaker 3 For too long, women's serious midlife health issues have been trivialized, ignored, and met with a just deal with it attitude.

Speaker 3 Today, 75% of women seeking care for menopause and perimenopause issues are left entirely untreated. It's time for a change.
It's time for MIDI.

Speaker 3 MIDI is the only women's telehealth brand covered by major insurance companies, making high-quality expert care accessible and affordable.

Speaker 3 MIDI offers a full range of personalized solutions, from hormonal therapies to lifestyle coaching and preventive health guidance. At MIDI, you will join patients who feel seen and heard.

Speaker 3 MIDI's mission is to help all women thrive in midlife, giving them access to the health care they deserve.

Speaker 3 Because MIDI believes midlife isn't the middle at all, it is the beginning of your second act. Ready to write your second act script? Visit joinmidi.com today.
That's joinmitty.com.

Speaker 3 MIDI, the care women deserve.

Speaker 1 Welcome back. I'm here with my husband, Christopher Robbins, who's also the founder of the Men's Retreat Soul Degree.

Speaker 1 And we're talking about the five silent struggles that men have and how knowing about them will help you support the men or anybody in your life who identifies male.

Speaker 1 I just asked Chris if he could go deeper into how these five silent struggles impacted him.

Speaker 1 And so we're going to go back three years to a moment in time where I was researching the high-five habit, which is just adding a high-five in the mirror to yourself as part of your morning routine.

Speaker 1 I was in the middle of researching it.

Speaker 1 We had all these focus groups, and I had asked Chris if he would please participate in the focus group and high-five himself in the mirror every morning as part of his morning routine.

Speaker 1 And he said, NFW,

Speaker 2 you did have a very

Speaker 1 deliberate, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I immediately thought it was the dumbest idea ever. Let's go to the mirror.
Let's high-five ourselves. And this is going to solve all problems.

Speaker 1 Well, I don't, I'm not saying it's going to solve all problems, but I know based on the research and I know based on the testimonials of 175,000 people that are so profound that when you take on this habit, it has a shocking impact on your brain and how you see yourself and the person in the mirror.

Speaker 1 And that kicks open a door to an entirely new possibility. And, you know, we're laughing, but when I kept pushing you, because I'm like, dude, you're my husband.
I need you to try this.

Speaker 1 I want you to do this for five days. You shared with me something that I didn't know.
And the real reason why you thought this was stupid when you dug a little deeper, it was really sad.

Speaker 1 And honestly, it was scary to hear as your spouse. So, would you share with everybody sort of the deeper insight as to why you had that reaction?

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 at the time, I related to the idea of a high five to myself as being

Speaker 2 encouragement, the idea that you would high five yourself to

Speaker 2 inspire forward action.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yet, I find that the power of that high five in the mirror is less

Speaker 2 your hand meeting the mirror and more your eyes meeting your eyes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that's where the struggle was

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 when I took that challenge on,

Speaker 2 I remember really

Speaker 2 the high-five was easy. The looking at myself in the mirror,

Speaker 2 that was not easy.

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 2 Can I hold your hand?

Speaker 2 I think it was not easy because there was so much reflection on the past. You know, I was looking back.

Speaker 2 I was not seeing somebody that deserved a high five.

Speaker 2 I saw failure. I saw upset.
I saw

Speaker 2 just not living up to the expectation that I think I had set for myself.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure that society's expectations were also influencing that. But just where I was at the time,

Speaker 2 I didn't feel like I deserved that high five. So

Speaker 2 I think that that was probably the

Speaker 2 underlying reason why my reaction to the idea of doing it was this is stupid, when the truth is that I was

Speaker 2 I was

Speaker 2 I was not happy

Speaker 2 with myself and didn't think

Speaker 2 a high five was

Speaker 2 was deserved.

Speaker 2 It's really hard to hear how long you felt that way about yourself.

Speaker 1 Because I stood next to you for years, the sink right next to you.

Speaker 1 And when I looked at you, like I saw the world's best dad, amazing husband, I saw somebody who was absolutely integral to helping me

Speaker 1 build my business. I felt grateful for you.

Speaker 1 I didn't know you thought any of those things.

Speaker 1 You just kind of put on a smile and carried on. You were so sort of stoic about it.

Speaker 1 So, can you explain? Because I think that there's a lot of people, especially men,

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 1 really beat the hell out of themselves when their career doesn't go how they thought it was going to go, or they get laid off, or, you know, you become an entrepreneur and entrepreneurship looks freaking glamorous.

Speaker 1 It's a bitch,

Speaker 1 especially in the restaurant business. And you had been an entrepreneur.
So can you just share just a little bit of context for people so they understand like how long you

Speaker 1 would look in the mirror and see somebody that failed and why you felt that way?

Speaker 2 Oh, it had to have been 15 years anyway. 15 years? Oh, yeah.
No, I don't think it was the unraveling of the restaurant business that was the beginning of that.

Speaker 2 I think that it,

Speaker 2 I'm not sure exactly when, but I, as you and I know, like the

Speaker 2 looking back on my very colorful career, I am grateful today for all of the things that I did,

Speaker 2 but having moved through so many different roles and responsibilities and industries and companies and

Speaker 2 job changes, and I just never, ever related to myself like I was succeeding in a professional sense.

Speaker 2 And I, of course, concluded that therein lies the source of my failure because my job here is to be the provider, the proverbial provider, and to go,

Speaker 2 quote, make it happen. So the discomfort.

Speaker 2 with myself and my progress professionally

Speaker 2 was absolutely what

Speaker 2 I think dragged me down.

Speaker 2 I would say that at the time you and I were in the throes of it. I mean, we were talk about just getting up and putting on your boots and just diving into the fire every day.

Speaker 2 There wasn't,

Speaker 2 at least this didn't seem like there was a moment to actually stop and acknowledge the good. And quite frankly, you weren't acknowledging me like that.

Speaker 2 You might have seen me as a good husband or father or,

Speaker 2 you know, business partner, but those words weren't being shared between us. And so naturally,

Speaker 2 I didn't get that reinforcement verbally from you.

Speaker 2 But I also think that the

Speaker 2 being in the thick of it and running as fast and as hard as we were didn't,

Speaker 2 you know, the idea of stopping and looking in the mirror and seeing myself truly for who I am and the good that I have done and acknowledging all the failures as being a source of powerful learning and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 Fuck that. Like I wasn't, I wasn't, and that's why I say I think the hardest part was

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 stand in front of that mirror

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 see your whole self.

Speaker 2 And for guys, I think for guys, that is

Speaker 2 for many, borderline feels impossible

Speaker 2 because that's what we do. We just get up, put the boots on, and go,

Speaker 2 Okay, you know, Mel needs something, the wife needs something, the kids need something, the

Speaker 2 employer needs something.

Speaker 2 Okay, Okay. Let me jam in a quick workout.
You know, maybe because maybe I'm thoughtful about what my mind, body, or spirit needs, but also something that I think is an afterthought for guys.

Speaker 2 And we put everybody but ourselves first. So

Speaker 2 the act of standing in front of a mirror and high-fiving yourself and looking yourself in the eyes and saying, I love you,

Speaker 2 outlandish concept.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 hugely,

Speaker 2 hugely hugely important.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it doesn't happen unless you're sort of willing to

Speaker 2 really stop and slow down and

Speaker 2 consider that you

Speaker 2 matter more than your wife, your kids, your employer, the rest of it. And I think that's part of what has,

Speaker 2 I think maybe over the years dragged me down was

Speaker 2 paying zero attention to me

Speaker 2 and paying all the attention, or so I felt, on everybody outside of me.

Speaker 1 And providing and trying to prove that you were successful and trying to earn money and

Speaker 1 live up to also your dad's expectations.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, that's, I mean, if you really want to go back to the root of it all, we could be here all day.

Speaker 2 But yes, even just the basics of putting on a suit and tie and packing a briefcase and catching a train and working in

Speaker 2 a skyrise, you know, a high-rise in Manhattan. All of those things were just visual cues of what I thought I should be doing.

Speaker 2 None of which, of course, played out other than the occasional suit until

Speaker 2 ties and the rest of it flew out the window. But just I wasn't I wasn't being like my dad, which is what I thought I was supposed to be

Speaker 2 doing.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you get really emotional when you talk about looking at yourself in the mirror. And

Speaker 1 I want to hear you talk more about that because the challenge of simply standing in the mirror and looking in the eyes, I agree with you. That's the hardest part

Speaker 1 of adding this habit to your morning routine. Just put the toothbrush down and be with the person in the mirror.
Look them in the eyes and don't see a reflection. See a human being who needs you.

Speaker 1 That half of men and women can't or won't look at themselves.

Speaker 2 And it's a good point because you can,

Speaker 2 it sounds weird, but you can look right through yourself in the mirror. Yes.
Versus actually seeing yourself.

Speaker 1 Yes. And if you aren't looking through yourself, a lot of us look at all the things we don't like.
And so even gazing at ourselves is an act of self-criticism because we're like, I hate my this.

Speaker 1 I hate my that. My, you know, neck is saggy.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, you have since done a tremendous amount of therapy. You are in the middle of getting your master's in spiritual, transpersonal psychology.

Speaker 1 And you've been leading retreats with men called soul degree for four years, Chris.

Speaker 1 And there's a lot of emotion that comes up for you. Six years.

Speaker 2 sorry, six years.

Speaker 2 Terrible wife.

Speaker 2 Can I get a high five? Cheer me on, even though. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Don't let go of my hand.

Speaker 2 I don't want to hold your hand.

Speaker 1 You have been in the presence of so many men.

Speaker 1 And you've even had Oakley reach out to you and had you counsel some of his friends through anxiety and through issues.

Speaker 1 And I know there's a lot of emotion there. So, you know, can you like just speak

Speaker 1 to the men and the boys that may be listening or to the people in their lives that love them about what you've witnessed, about the importance of being able to look yourself in the mirror and learn how to take actions

Speaker 1 to truly support and love yourself? And that this is a very foreign concept for boys and men.

Speaker 2 I often talk about soul degree as being

Speaker 2 a space that I hold for men that allows them to slow down.

Speaker 2 When the truth of the matter is,

Speaker 2 it's in the slowdown that all of those beautiful things can take place.

Speaker 2 And I think that the

Speaker 2 The reason why there's a lot of emotion there for me, particularly

Speaker 2 with guys,

Speaker 2 why there is a lot of emotion is

Speaker 2 because in my experience and sitting with men,

Speaker 2 very rarely

Speaker 2 do men feel truly seen and heard.

Speaker 1 On an emotional level.

Speaker 2 Yes, and even in just everyday real life.

Speaker 2 I'm so happy you're here.

Speaker 1 We have to take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors, but when we come back, I want to go back to the mirror and hear more about that experience when you first started looking yourself in the eye and trying this high-five habit.

Speaker 1 If you need anything for your home, Wayfair is the place to shop. I'm talking everything from a sofa to a spatula.
They have absolutely everything. And get this, you can get up to 70%

Speaker 1 off during Wayfair's Black Friday sale. We just did a mini guest room refresh from Wayfair.

Speaker 1 Soft area rug, two new, wonderful throw pillows, a simple wood bedside table with a drawer for phone chargers.

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, it's like people are staying in a hotel room instead of staying in my house. The room finally feels pulled together.
And I love that the styles are so diverse.

Speaker 1 You can find absolutely anything in any style that you're looking for. Starting October 30th, you can shop Wayfair's Can't Miss Black Friday deals all month long.

Speaker 1 Wayfair's fast, easy shipping helps you relax for the holidays and feel great about your home. Don't miss out on early Black Friday deals.

Speaker 1 Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.
Sale ends December 7th. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank.

Speaker 1 Some people think self-help podcasts are boring. Sure.
If you find improving yourself, growing to be boring, kind of get it. However, it's hard, boring work that makes a better life.

Speaker 1 It's like banking with PNC. Might seem boring to save, plan, and make calculated decisions with your bank, but keeping your money boring is what helps you live a happily fulfilled life.

Speaker 1 PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. PNC Bank, National Association, member FDIC.
I want to tell you about one of our sponsors.

Speaker 1 I love this product, Aura Frames, because it helps me stay connected to the people that I love.

Speaker 1 I gave one to my mom and dad because my mom and dad, my gosh, they live two plane rides away, but every single morning she sees new photos from my phone pop up on her frame.

Speaker 1 The kids, the dogs, the little moments from my day. No texts, no emails, no, hey, did you see that pic I sent you? Boom, it just shows up like a little hi in her kitchen.
And it's so simple.

Speaker 1 You just connect it to Wi-Fi, open the app, upload, and boom, unlimited photos and videos from everyone in the family.

Speaker 1 For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames. Name number one by Wirecutter by using promo code MEL at checkout.

Speaker 1 That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code MEL. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends.

Speaker 1 Support the show by mentioning us the Mel Robbins podcast at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 2 Welcome back.

Speaker 1 So, Chris, let's go back to the mirror and what you experienced when for five days in a row, you made it a habit to stop at a time in your life where you were still beating the shit out of yourself and look yourself in the eyes.

Speaker 1 And so, what did you experience for yourself personally in terms of the science working, the shift in how you started to see the person in the mirror?

Speaker 2 Well, transformation doesn't happen without repetition.

Speaker 2 I know you call it the high-five habit, but it's one of those things that doesn't,

Speaker 2 it almost feels elusive in terms of becoming habitual.

Speaker 2 And that's because next week or next year, some shit might go down and you might do something or something happens where you really feel immediately lousy about yourself.

Speaker 2 And so even though there may be some habit of you getting up saying, I love you or high-fiving yourself, your life circumstance is going to get in the way

Speaker 2 frequently.

Speaker 1 Correct. Just like with exercise or drinking your water or getting a good night's sleep.
But when you come back to that moment, I'll tell you something. I look at myself differently.

Speaker 1 And I know you do too.

Speaker 1 And so the importance of this, because it is something that most of us don't do. I think we casually slip into the subconscious where we're beating ourselves up and we're on autopilot.

Speaker 1 And every time you pass a mirror, you have a chance to look yourself in the eyes and see a person that is worthy

Speaker 1 of celebrating, of cheering for, of believing in, simply because

Speaker 1 you're here. That to me is the power of this.

Speaker 1 What is the power of it for you?

Speaker 2 The looking in the mirror and the acknowledging of myself,

Speaker 2 it's rarely like, okay, you got this. You know, all right, your next meeting or your next whatever.
I think one last thing I want to say to the men out there, any man who

Speaker 2 feels a sense of failure or that they haven't lived up to their own expectations or those outside of them, any man who's been battling with or has battled with addiction or depression or any of these things that drag us down.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 strongly encourage you to

Speaker 2 start with you and to

Speaker 2 begin with forgiveness. Not always so easy, but

Speaker 2 without a doubt, I know from my experience, not just me personally, but being in the company of lots of men, that we are all working our ass off

Speaker 2 to do the right thing.

Speaker 2 And while

Speaker 2 we don't always believe that the results live up,

Speaker 2 it's in the forgiveness and the starting with yourself

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 the self-acknowledgement.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 I want to go back to what you said in the very beginning. Because I know that we're going to get a ton of questions, Chris.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 How do I begin that?

Speaker 1 One step step that you could take today

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 2 trying

Speaker 1 this habit of even just looking yourself in the mirror.

Speaker 2 I'm shocked that I'm even saying this, given my initial reaction to the high-five habit, but I agree. Start right there.
Start in the mirror.

Speaker 1 You will never forgive yourself if you refuse to look yourself in the eyes with compassion

Speaker 1 and with forgiveness and with understanding and one of the reasons why i'm i'm going to keep hammering this everybody raise your hand and high five the mirror because if you're at a place where you are beating the shit out of yourself and you can't stand yourself for whatever reason whatever you did we've all done something

Speaker 1 you don't have to change your thoughts The neurobics and the science of simply making the physical gesture of the high five and all of the lifetime of positive programming associated with it,

Speaker 1 it has

Speaker 1 a chemical, a neurological, a psychological benefit immediately that is grounded in science. And so the physical act

Speaker 1 does the work for you.

Speaker 1 And it starts to plow new neural pathways and it releases dopamine, all of which will help you do the other work that you need to do to walk down the road of forgiving yourself.

Speaker 1 You got to start by simply looking at yourself in the eyes and seeing somebody who is worthy of forgiving because you are.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I can't stress that enough. The mirror is where it happens.

Speaker 1 It's one of the reasons why I always sign off the show by telling

Speaker 1 the person listening that I love you.

Speaker 2 I love that about how you sign off. And I know you mean it.

Speaker 1 I do mean it because I just know how many people can't look at themselves in the mirror.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it breaks my heart. And it feels good to have somebody tell you that they love you and that you're proud of them.

Speaker 1 And to some extent, unless you're willing to do the work on yourself, to let love in from yourself, to demonstrate encouragement, support, and love by looking at your eyes in the mirror or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

Speaker 1 If you can't do that for yourself, you will never let the love in that is all around you from other people because you don't believe you're worthy of it and you're proving it based on your actions.

Speaker 1 What are you thinking about? Because I can see you getting

Speaker 2 moved.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I'm always moved by the way that you sign off and tell people, I love you.

Speaker 2 And it ties back to what I was saying earlier is just my own experience in being in the company of men who don't, you know, they don't feel that while you're standing in front of that mirror and you're looking at yourself, you may feel alone,

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 you are not alone.

Speaker 2 either the struggle you have with forgiving yourself or the judgments or the failures or whatever that may be,

Speaker 2 you are not alone.

Speaker 1 At a really wild level, there's actually a human being in the mirror who needs you.

Speaker 1 It's the one person you spend your whole life with.

Speaker 1 And the moment that you can look them in the eyes and see a human being worth cheering for, you'll realize you aren't alone because you've got yourself.

Speaker 1 I want to thank you, Chris, for speaking directly to men, but everything that you're saying, everything that I'm saying is universal. And

Speaker 1 I do think it's important, though, for men and boys and people who identify as male that you hear a male voice saying these things.

Speaker 1 It is critical. that other men realize that your emotional health, your sense of self-esteem, self-awareness, self-love.

Speaker 1 And going back to the very beginning of what I said at the beginning of this episode today is that I think we get self-love wrong, Chris, because we think love is a feeling.

Speaker 1 But the truth is, you only feel loved because of other people's actions.

Speaker 1 And when it comes to learning to love yourself,

Speaker 1 you have to start with the actions.

Speaker 1 Actions that demonstrate love. And when you are able to stand in front of a mirror and look yourself in the eyes, that's an act of love.

Speaker 1 When you're able to bring compassion and understanding to the person in the mirror and you see somebody that's trying and you see somebody that has regrets and you see somebody who still has an incredible life to live and is worthy of love, that's an act of love.

Speaker 1 When you raise your hand and high five yourself, that's an act of love.

Speaker 1 And all the research also shows that the most important habit that has the biggest impact on our lives is being kind to yourself. I want you to do this for real.

Speaker 1 So, you know how I mentioned that I had 175,000 people from 91 countries try this for five days?

Speaker 1 Well, if you want to try this for five days and get support, go to high5challenge.com and you can do this challenge with people around the world.

Speaker 1 And high five is spelled H-I-G-H the number5challenge.com. And for five days, I will support you, cheer you on.
And so, Chris, I just want to thank you.

Speaker 1 And I love that that you shared all that you just shared with us. And I have one more story and I would love for you to stay with me, han, because I think you're going to love this story too.

Speaker 1 It's from a woman named Chris. And her story says it all about how you are one decision away from a different life.

Speaker 1 Because you are one decision away from changing the way you treat yourself.

Speaker 1 And when you change the way that you treat yourself, a whole new life opens up for you, just like it did for Chris and just like it did for me.

Speaker 4 Hey, Mel. I'm not sure where to start with this email, but I'm going to start with saying thank you.
You've helped me gain my identity and life back. Buckle up.
It's a long email. My name is Chris.

Speaker 4 I'm 35 and from the United States.

Speaker 4 Back in 2019, my life was falling apart at the seams, but quietly.

Speaker 4 I was doing the best I could to manage with the tiny amount of tools I had, but starting in 2020 through the beginning of 2021 were the worst times of my life to date.

Speaker 4 All that I had worked for in my life and sacrificed to build, the life that I always had dreamt and wanted, was ripped from me. And there was nothing, Mel, literally, nothing I could do to stop it.

Speaker 4 And then I went AWOL. I went from being a confident, fit, happy, joyful, positive, and full of faith, wife, friend, sister, and daughter to something unspeakable.

Speaker 4 I adopted unhealthy coping mechanisms to numb my emotions. I got lost in TikTok, wasting hours of my life.
I was bitter, angry, brokenhearted, and crushed at spirit.

Speaker 4 I started getting stuck in what I now know is rumination. And the pounds stacked on, one after another, along with the shame, guilt, and disgust.

Speaker 4 At some point, I didn't know what weighed more, the shame and guilt, or the literal 35 pounds that I've put on.

Speaker 4 The spaces I once felt safe and fulfilled in were no longer safe because my mind, my anxiety mind, she came with me everywhere. Her name's Patrice.
I named her.

Speaker 4 And she wanted to make sure I knew how horrible I was in every moment of the day.

Speaker 4 How could you make mistakes? You deserve this hurt. You're a disgusting person.
You really don't have friends. No one really likes you.
They just use you and leave. And on and on this went.

Speaker 4 I couldn't even look in the mirror. At some point, the panic attacks started.
I'm talking full-blown, intense attacks where I shake, rock back and forth, and smack myself.

Speaker 4 I would keep these attacks away from my family. And Mel, at this point, my brain told me, no one loves you.
No one.

Speaker 4 So you might as well not be here anymore.

Speaker 4 And it was so loud all the time.

Speaker 4 There was no reprieve until at night when I would open a bottle of wine and have some at dinner. And even in my sleep, I would wake in panic attacks.

Speaker 4 On my way to work one day, I thought while trying to suppress an attack I could feel coming on, I can't keep living like this. I hate the person I see back in the mirror.

Speaker 4 And all I see is the damaged person and the damage that's been done to me over this last year.

Speaker 4 I started to pull out my phone to see if I could find something to help. And what did I find? A podcast.
But it wasn't yours, but one you were being interviewed on. And it changed my life.

Speaker 4 I was in the middle of cleaning a glass slider door, and you said, go look at yourself in the mirror and give yourself a high five.

Speaker 4 I stopped everything. I walked into the house and looked into a huge round mirror on my client's wall and just started to stare at myself while I listened to you speak.

Speaker 4 I raised my hand, high-fived myself,

Speaker 4 and the tears came rolling down. And in that moment, a new life began.
The spark was small, but profound. I have re-listened to the high-five habit at least four times.

Speaker 4 My healing journey started in December of 2021. I got myself into therapy.
I've been doing tons of research on anxiety, depression, trauma, ADHD, and PTSD.

Speaker 4 So I can understand what is happening in my brain. But Mel, I wouldn't be here today writing this email had I not stumbled upon you and all the good you put into this world.

Speaker 4 Although now, I think after listening to your episode on synchronicities, it wasn't by chance. On that day that I first met you, I was done.

Speaker 4 And I had no more fight in me and was ready to call it quits. But today, I can say I'm a different person and I'm me again.
And I owe a lot of that to my big sis, Mel Robbins.

Speaker 4 And if anyone hasn't told you today, Mel, I love you and I believe in you.

Speaker 2 I don't know what to say other than.

Speaker 2 It's beautiful. Says a lot about the impact you're making.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 1 I just know how long I struggled.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 if you can learn

Speaker 2 how to get out of bed,

Speaker 1 five, four, three, two, one,

Speaker 1 and get your feet on the floor and stand up and get going. You can keep going.

Speaker 1 And if you can stand in front of the mirror, no matter what's happened or what you're feeling or what's going on, good or bad, and you can look yourself in the eyes

Speaker 1 and you can see a person who is worthy of love, who is doing their best, who needs your support, who's tired of feeling beaten down, and you can raise your hand and you can give that person

Speaker 1 a simple high-five

Speaker 1 to demonstrate. that you see them, that you love them, that you're there with them.

Speaker 1 I personally think that's the secret to everything.

Speaker 2 I love you. Oh, I love you too.
That's what I want to say.

Speaker 1 So let's go back to the mirror. Can you describe the person you see today?

Speaker 2 I see a man I love.

Speaker 2 I see a man I'm proud of.

Speaker 2 I see

Speaker 2 a great father.

Speaker 2 And I see a great partner to you.

Speaker 2 And I see

Speaker 2 a man who

Speaker 2 has

Speaker 2 accomplished a lot in a short period of time.

Speaker 2 I see a man who's doing his best and deserves a look in the eye and a high five. And for that,

Speaker 2 I'm grateful.

Speaker 1 Given that men silently struggle with these five things, what is one thing that anybody listening should start doing in their relationship with the men in their life?

Speaker 2 Encouraging men to

Speaker 2 give thought to and pursue in earnest things that they genuinely feel

Speaker 2 they need or want. Be curious with your man about

Speaker 2 the things that he

Speaker 2 is longing for, curious about, wanting to do more of,

Speaker 2 and encourage that.

Speaker 1 Whether it's golf or like going on a solo hype thing or pursuing rap mutant, like you like what, like all of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, any of it. I mean, I would say with something like golf, if there's something about competition or friendship or the social nature of it that the guy really feels he genuinely needs for his own

Speaker 2 joy and happiness and well-being, then yeah, encourage that. And for many guys who haven't been able to put their finger on that,

Speaker 2 try to

Speaker 2 strike those conversations where maybe those things can get exposed such that they are suddenly seeing something new and different that, oh yeah, that thing.

Speaker 2 Then encourage it.

Speaker 1 You know, I just got something out of this.

Speaker 1 Because I didn't know that you felt deeply like everybody else comes first, and because I had this opinion that I'm last on the list, right?

Speaker 1 There was always this tension in our relationship whenever you wanted to come home from work or do something on the weekends that wasn't something that I wanted you to do.

Speaker 1 And so I can see how the guilt or the pressure or the to-do list or the attitude that I might have thrown at you because you wanted to go off and take a long bike ride, for example, with a cycling group or on your own or take a walk in the woods or go to a meditation retreat or whatever it was, meeting it like,

Speaker 1 because I have something that you want to do, I'm playing into that sense of obligation that you have and the sense that Mel's to-do list comes before what I might need for myself.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 No, you don't need to apologize for that, but it does point to the importance of, ideally, in a relationship, there being a healthy balance of each person having their own either hobbies or interests or things that they, because

Speaker 2 without that, one gets zero and the other one is like, hey, I'm going out and play golf again. Hey, I'm going out to, I'm going to go work in the shop.
Hey, I'm going with the boys to play poker.

Speaker 2 And then you're doing nothing or vice versa.

Speaker 2 It's like the guy's like, yeah, honey, you should go get your nails done or you should go do this or you should go for a hike or you, and then he's left with the goose eggs. So it's, it's, it's, uh,

Speaker 2 it can be a challenging balance.

Speaker 1 That's a beautiful takeaway right there. That instead of focusing on the transaction and the tit for tat, that you focus on an opening for both of you.

Speaker 1 That if my job is to encourage you to get out to that cycling group, to pursue some of the things that make you feel more alive and that give your life meaning.

Speaker 1 And you're doing the same for me, then we achieve the balance by looking out for one another.

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. Thank you, honey.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Boy, I wish I could be a fly in that retreat.

Speaker 2 Too bad.

Speaker 1 Somehow, I think it's perfect that I'm not there as a fly in the retreat. And one more thing, in case nobody else tells you today, I want to make sure I tell you, I love you.
I believe in you.

Speaker 1 and I believe in your ability to start to create a more meaningful life.

Speaker 1 And I really hope that the conversation today is going to help you do that and will help you support the men in your life in doing it too. Alrighty, I'll see you in a few days.

Speaker 2 Okay, you ready? Let's go. My best.

Speaker 1 That was a shitty high-five, one more.

Speaker 2 Oh, I love you, babe. Why are you rolling your eyes?

Speaker 2 I'm listening to you set the table. Let's go.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. How am I starting this?

Speaker 2 You better be good.

Speaker 1 Something like this.

Speaker 2 Okay, here we go.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. That's not a weird.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's your friend Mel.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. Hey.

Speaker 2 Hey, hey.

Speaker 2 Here we go. Hey, that's not it.
How about you?

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. How about that? I think that's a much better open, don't you?

Speaker 2 Oh, and one more thing.

Speaker 1 And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

Speaker 1 I'm just your friend.

Speaker 1 I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Speaker 2 Got it?

Speaker 1 Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 4 Stitcher.

Speaker 5 Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odo, the only business software you'll ever need.

Speaker 5 It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. From CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

Speaker 5 And the best part, Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
So why not you? Try Odo for free at odoo.com.

Speaker 5 That's odoo.com.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's your friend Mel. If you love the Mel Robbins podcast, you're going to love this.

Speaker 1 If you want to hear all the new episodes ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM/slash podcast plus to start your free trial today.