If You Struggle With Anxiety, This Episode Will Change Your Life

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Speaker 2 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. That is Oakley Robbins.
Hey, guys.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited you're here.

Speaker 2 Me too.

Speaker 2 It's been a long time.

Speaker 1 It has. And we get a lot of

Speaker 1 questions, comments, requests for you. So I am so happy that you wanted to sit down, Oak.
For those of you who are new to the Mel Robbins podcast, welcome. My name is Mel Robbins.

Speaker 1 I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's most respected experts on motivation and change. And

Speaker 1 this is my son.

Speaker 2 I am not a New York Times bestseller, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 I'm the son of a New York Times bestseller.

Speaker 2 Awesome.

Speaker 1 You're amazing. Awesome.
I wanted to talk to you because you just came into the kitchen a couple minutes ago and you were like, oh my God, I just had the best therapy session.

Speaker 1 And I thought to myself, first of all, how cool is that?

Speaker 1 And then I had the second thought, Oak, which is, I bet Oakley is about to share something that is insightful, profound, and incredibly helpful.

Speaker 1 And I absolutely love the fact that you're willing to talk to me about what you're learning from your therapist because it's almost like a two-for-one. I get value from it too.

Speaker 1 You benefited from the conversation. I benefit from it when you share it with me.
And now you listening, you get to benefit from Oakley's therapy session too.

Speaker 1 And if you're new to the podcast, it's important for me to just tell you that our family is very open with one another, especially when it comes to the stuff that we're working on, the goals that we have, the struggles that we're facing.

Speaker 1 We love working this stuff out in real time instead of just keeping it to ourselves. And I personally struggled with anxiety for almost 30 years.
All three of our kids have had various challenges.

Speaker 1 So has my husband, Chris.

Speaker 1 And I just am really excited, Oak, that you agreed to sit down with me in real time. I don't even know what you're about to share, but I'm

Speaker 1 so grateful that you wanted to share this conversation with everyone.

Speaker 2 And I also thought, what a gift.

Speaker 1 I mean, how many 17-year-old guys walk into the kitchen after a therapy call and announce to their family, wow.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I do not know.
Do you care? No.

Speaker 1 Talk to me about therapy. Do you like therapy?

Speaker 2 I would like to talk to your audience about therapy. Okay, do it.
Guys,

Speaker 2 therapy is like, it's awesome. I love my therapist.
I love therapy. When I was younger, I had a horrible experience with therapy.

Speaker 2 It was with this like old woman who like tried to convince me how to use an elevator because that's what I was afraid of. I was afraid of elevators.
She was like, you need to ride the elevator.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I don't want to.

Speaker 2 And so I hated therapy. I hated it.
And then I got a new therapist last year

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 it like changed my life. How?

Speaker 2 Because therapy is almost like having a notebook, but you don't have to write and you actually get an answer back.

Speaker 2 So you don't have to like take the time and to like write down your thoughts. You just say it and then they say something back to you.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't have to help, but it's just nice to hear someone say something that isn't part of your friend group or a family member.

Speaker 2 They're just someone that's there to listen and maybe that's all they need to do.

Speaker 2 And I love therapy and I would fully recommend therapy to anyone because no, it's not like some bad thing.

Speaker 2 And if you have a therapist, you're super messed up in the head and like everything in your life is going to shit. Like, no, therapy rocks.
You can have it when you're perfectly fine and happy.

Speaker 2 I, I think everyone should have a therapist because it's just the best.

Speaker 1 I agree with you. And the thing that I

Speaker 1 realize now is had I gone

Speaker 1 and worked with a therapist oak when things were going okay.

Speaker 2 They probably wouldn't have gone bad. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Totally. Yeah.
Yeah. Because I hate to burst your bubble, but you are not going to be able to solve all your problems.

Speaker 2 And your friends with the similar age as you and the similar mindset will not be able to solve the same problems that you have. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Well, I want, I'm so happy and appreciative that you were like, yeah, I'll, I'll sit down on the mics with you, mom, and tell you why this therapy session with Keith was so awesome. So thank you.

Speaker 2 Of course. Could you tell everybody why

Speaker 1 you wanted to share this?

Speaker 1 Like why? Because I think it's pretty cool that you're willing to.

Speaker 2 Do you want the honest answer or do you want the podcast answer? Either. The honest answer is that I came downstairs in a good mood and I said, I love Keith.

Speaker 2 And you said, will you record this with me? And I was in a good enough mood to say sure.

Speaker 1 Oh, I like an honest answer. What's the podcast answer?

Speaker 2 Your viewers need to hear this, Mel.

Speaker 1 They're not viewers.

Speaker 2 This is game-changing stuff right here. Life-changing.
Is it?

Speaker 2 Depends on how they look at it. Well, is it for you?

Speaker 2 Low-key. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like, yeah, little like tweak in the direction that my life is going in. Hey,

Speaker 1 I can't wait to hear it. So what did you talk about in this session?

Speaker 2 A lot of things. A lot of things.

Speaker 1 Would you be willing to unpack it with me?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, but hold on a sec, Oak, because I just want to say something. In case you are brand new to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Speaker 1 I want to just make sure that you know I'm not a therapist and I'm not a medical doctor. And I'm inviting you into this conversation between a mother and her son.

Speaker 1 And I wanted you to be here because I know that this is going to be a really amazing thing that's about to happen. I don't even know really what Oakley's about to tell me, but I just, I just knew that

Speaker 1 listening to it was going to help a lot of people. So with that little disclaimer, let's get started, Oak.
So why did you start working with Keith in the first place?

Speaker 2 Started when? Last year.

Speaker 2 So yeah, April last year. So almost a year, kind of close to a year.

Speaker 2 Sophomore year, it was weird because

Speaker 2 freshman year and sophomore year, there was a moment in time in my life. It was like a March, March time.
It was like becoming spring, but still kind of chilly.

Speaker 2 That's like the, the, the memory that I have from these points in time where

Speaker 2 it wasn't,

Speaker 2 it wasn't depression and it wasn't like,

Speaker 2 I think it was anxiety. Okay.
It was overwhelming anxiety in my freshman and sophomore year. And it went away.
Like freshman year happened in March. It was about three weeks gone, forgotten about it.

Speaker 2 Hold on a second. I don't remember you having because I never told you about it.
Why?

Speaker 2 Because I didn't want to make it a huge thing. And I didn't want to go to therapy.
And I didn't want to like get into that. I didn't want to get into that.
I was like, I can do this.

Speaker 2 I can, I can solve this. I can get over this.
Like, we're good. And we were good freshman year.
Wait, hold on a second, though.

Speaker 1 Stop the train. Stop the phone.
Stop the train. I want to get off.

Speaker 2 Don't you dare do that to me. John Mayer.
We'll include that later.

Speaker 2 We'll include that later.

Speaker 1 I had no idea that you were

Speaker 1 struggling with anxiety for three weeks in freshman year or high school.

Speaker 2 You hit, why did you find this? I've struggled with anxiety my whole life.

Speaker 2 When I talk about that specific time period, it's when my anxiety was at this like weird peak where I just like couldn't really do anything. And I was terrified.
Of what?

Speaker 2 No idea. Like I couldn't tell you freshman year.
And I'll get into what it was later because I know now, but there was,

Speaker 2 this is probably going to terrify you. I don't know if you've heard this story.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I wrote a memoir about it in sophomore year. So there was this one day in freshman year that I remember, that's like basically the only thing that I remember from when I was anxious like that.

Speaker 2 I wrote this memoir called The Blue Ceiling because artsy.

Speaker 2 And like, there was this like moment where like I woke up and it was like one of those, it was one of those March days where it was like, there was no snow but it was like kind of like foggy and misty yeah and where we live like when you look out the windows like you can't see anything so it like you feel like you're in like a snow globe and so I woke up and it was like one of those days where I was in a snow globe and I was like you know what like I'm just gonna like stay in bed and watch some TV like that sounds nice okay and so I was doing that

Speaker 2 and all of a sudden like

Speaker 2 boom like semi truck hits me like I'm lightheaded I'm confused I'm like what's going on like nothing feels normal like I don't feel safe right now like I'm really scared I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 Like, I need to get out of my room. Like, I need to go.
I need to go. I need to go.
And so I like open the door. I go downstairs and I see dad sitting in front of the fire.

Speaker 2 And he's like, hey, dude, what's up? And I was like, I didn't, I didn't tell him that I was freaking out, but I like looked at him and I was like, I'm okay. Like, it's whatever.

Speaker 2 And then I like walked outside.

Speaker 2 I like looked around. I like took a deep breath.
I was like, whatever this is, like you've been anxious before. Like you can get over this.
Like, it's fine.

Speaker 2 Then I go back inside. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I wanted to hug dad. I wanted to, like,

Speaker 2 I don't know. I wanted to do something.
I wanted to reach out. I wanted to get help.
I wanted something.

Speaker 2 And I couldn't do it. Like, I just couldn't.
I didn't want to. Why?

Speaker 2 Because I didn't want to get into it. I didn't want to become a process.
I didn't want to have to do stuff because I felt like I knew what I was doing. And then

Speaker 2 what happened is I went back up to my room. I kept watching TV.

Speaker 2 And I remember going back downstairs to find dad and he wasn't there.

Speaker 2 And then I look

Speaker 2 towards the kitchen and I like,

Speaker 2 like, thinking about this moment is so like weird and scary. And like, I would never do this ever.
And it's super out of character. But I looked in the kitchen and like, I,

Speaker 2 you're going to be very nervous when you hear this. And I looked also.
Maybe trigger warning for the listeners, but I looked at the kitchen and I looked at like the

Speaker 2 knife holder. Uh-huh.
And like, I

Speaker 2 like, like almost like a movie, like I could fully imagine myself like stabbing myself in the stomach with a knife. And like part of me was like, I should.

Speaker 2 And I was like, holy fucking shit, like this is not happening right now. Like I am not suicidal.
Like I don't want to kill myself. Like I want to live.
So like I go back outside. I like.

Speaker 2 I'm like hyperventilating. I'm like,

Speaker 2 I'm like hyperventilating right now. And I like look around.
I'm like, I'm like breathing in and out. I'm like, like, I'm going to be okay.
Like, it's okay. It's okay.
It's okay. It's okay.

Speaker 2 And like, there was this feeling of lightheadedness. And I just couldn't think clearly.
And I felt like nothing I would do in that moment would ever matter. And so, why do anything?

Speaker 2 And so that's why I had that thought: I should just like stab myself. Because if I don't, if I do something and it doesn't matter, like, why do it? Like, why do anything?

Speaker 2 So, like, why, why would I keep living my life if nothing I do will ever matter? Like, why not just end it now? Wow.

Speaker 1 I, I'm, I'm not quite sure what to say. I'm just processing as I'm listening to you, Oak.

Speaker 1 Is there any more?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Then

Speaker 2 that night,

Speaker 2 the reason the memoir was called the Blue Ceiling is because later that night, I had this like ceiling projector. It was like it projected like this blue night sky onto my ceiling.
It was super cool.

Speaker 2 Still have it. And I just like remember, this is going to be like such a main character moment, but it was like,

Speaker 2 and it is. I will fully admit to that.
But I like, I reached my hand up and I like looked at my outline of my hand and I was just like crying for no reason.

Speaker 2 And like the dark, the darkness of my room is like my ceiling was blue. And like that was the only light.
And I was just like looking at my hand outline and crying and just being terrified.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 it basically just like went away. It was gone.
I never thought about it again. Freshman year, like it was gone.

Speaker 2 Didn't think about it.

Speaker 1 Can I ask a question?

Speaker 2 Go for it.

Speaker 1 Are you nervous nervous about what I might ask?

Speaker 2 No, not really.

Speaker 1 Well, first I just want to say thank you for telling me.

Speaker 2 I feel like I told you that before, right? Not that part. I could give you the memoir and you could read it on your own time if you wanted to.

Speaker 2 I would love to. I would be happy to give it to you.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I think it's really odd that you never told me that.

Speaker 2 I forgot. Because we have like a really good

Speaker 2 relationship, as stated in the family podcast episode. Will you stop

Speaker 2 wonderful? I'm plugging, Mom. I know.

Speaker 1 No, but I, I, I, so number one, I'm surprised that you never shared that with me.

Speaker 2 I know why I didn't share it with you. Why? I didn't share it with you because two reasons.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 The first one was I didn't want to get into it. I didn't want to get a therapist.
I didn't want to go on meds.

Speaker 2 I had horrible experiences with meds and therapists in my past, and I didn't want to go back into it because I was just like, no, no, thanks.

Speaker 2 And two was because since I've had, I've had anxiety my whole life. Like I have,

Speaker 2 I wouldn't say every day, but like every week, I've probably had like a small anxious panic, if you will. Like a, oh my goodness, I'm like anxious right now.

Speaker 2 Like I'm anxious. I'm nervous, whatever, whatever.
And like, I can handle it. I can do it.
And so I felt like I could handle it. And like, the reason I didn't tell you is because I was like, I did.

Speaker 2 I thought I handled it. Like, I was like, it's over.
Like it didn't come back. That's interesting.
It did not come back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. I want to say one other thing.

Speaker 1 I want to address the fact that you may be listening to us talking about a very serious topic and we're giggling and we're light about it.

Speaker 2 People laugh when they're uncomfortable. Oh.
Except I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I'm uncomfortable right now, but I'm just like, I don't know. I feel like this is easier to talk about when I can like throw in a joke.

Speaker 1 Got it. Have some fun.

Speaker 2 That makes sense.

Speaker 1 You know, Oak, I want to specifically address what you said about that thought that you had about the knife, because

Speaker 1 those kinds of thoughts that are really big,

Speaker 1 scary, overwhelming thoughts, they can seem uncontrollable because they can come out of nowhere and they can start to

Speaker 1 get more and more frequent and overwhelming.

Speaker 1 They are very normal. In fact, according to therapists, almost everyone has experienced a situation like the one you described.

Speaker 1 But I want to talk further about this topic because it's helpful to talk about it.

Speaker 1 So hold on to that thought because I know there's more that we're going to talk about because I got to pause real quick for a word from our sponsors and we're going to be right back.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. I'm El Robbins, and I'm so excited that you're here because I'm talking to our 17-year-old son, Oakley.

Speaker 2 And we're having a really,

Speaker 1 wow, it's just a,

Speaker 1 I'm just blown away by this conversation because Oakley is unpacking in real time this therapy session that he had tonight.

Speaker 2 30 minutes ago. I got off the phone.

Speaker 2 I feel like you're supposed to wait a day, but no, we just, we just jumped right in. We just jumped right in.

Speaker 1 We are a deep end kind of family. Let's go, right? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Here's the other thing I wanted to say. We have two years from this, meaning we've had two years' distance from this topic.

Speaker 2 From the freshman topic. Yes.

Speaker 1 You are in an amazing place mentally, spiritually.

Speaker 2 Fantastically.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so there is no danger.
No. And so I'm not triggered by that.
And the other thing I wanted to say is,

Speaker 1 would it surprise you to hear

Speaker 1 that having thoughts or a fleeting thought

Speaker 1 about ending your life

Speaker 1 or dying some death like that is normal?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because I feel like

Speaker 2 suicidal thoughts are.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's been talked about to the point where it's like, you're at the worst of the worst if there's suicidal thoughts like this is where like shit is going down like it's bad like this is bad like this is the worst of the worst like this is horrible like

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 i get it like you're at the end of the line the truth is so when you hear that somebody has suicide like when you just said would you think it's normal that most people do like i'd say no because it's like well most people do i wouldn't expect everybody to be at the worst of the worst even though i see what you're saying what you're saying is this

Speaker 1 because this has been talked about so much, particularly to your age group. Yeah.
It makes you think that when you have a thought like that.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no. It's more just that like, I feel like it's talked about where it's like,

Speaker 2 it's only like the people with the worst condition are going to have that. Got it.
So it's not, so like when you say like, oh, everybody has it. Like, I'm like.
Really?

Speaker 1 Like, I feel like it's only the worst of the worst that because of what, no, it's normal to have those kinds of thoughts.

Speaker 1 So I just wanted to address what might sound like a weird tone or an insensitive tone to say we're two years away from it.

Speaker 1 Oakley is in an incredible place in his life, in his mental health, his spiritual health.

Speaker 2 He's just happy.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it's normal to have those kinds of big and scary and overwhelming thoughts, Oak.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that I want everyone to hear. And I know I've said it over and over on social media media and I've said it in numerous circumstances, but it's this.

Speaker 1 There is a very big difference between wanting to end the pain that you're feeling

Speaker 1 and wanting these scary thoughts to end

Speaker 1 and actually wanting to end your life.

Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, I want to talk to you listening. and just check in with you.

Speaker 1 And what I specifically want to make sure that you you hear me say is that it is normal to have these big, scary, and overwhelming thoughts.

Speaker 1 And when they come out of nowhere or they seem to get louder and louder, it can be terrifying. I know it was terrifying when this all started happening with Oakley.

Speaker 1 So many people suffer because they believe that the thoughts will never go away.

Speaker 2 That's what I believed. I thought it would never end and I didn't want to live the rest of my life with those thoughts.

Speaker 1 Now, if you knew the thoughts were going to end, would it have made you feel better? Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you knew having those thoughts pop in your mind was perfectly normal, would that make you have felt better in that moment?

Speaker 2 Kind of, yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm glad that you said that, Oak, because I think so many people, when they start to suffer because of these really scary thoughts,

Speaker 1 they don't tell anybody.

Speaker 2 I didn't want to tell anyone.

Speaker 1 I know, and I wish you would have told me. I wish you hadn't suffered alone.

Speaker 1 I wish you would have told somebody because the second that you start to talk about it, it immediately relieves you of the burden of carrying this on your own.

Speaker 1 You can figure out how to lessen the pain or the sadness or these awful, like kind of thoughts that keep popping into your head. You can do that and you make your life better.

Speaker 1 How?

Speaker 1 By talking about these things that are overwhelming you and asking for help.

Speaker 2 Because you can't just keep them inside. No.

Speaker 1 Because what happens when you keep them inside?

Speaker 2 Like, it's like, it's kind of like a Coke can, can, like when you shake it up and then it explodes. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm proud of you for talking about this oak, because it can be torture if you've got that trapped in your own head.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, it's horrible.

Speaker 1 And I think most people, including the people that we've lost, that we love

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 1 death by suicide.

Speaker 1 I still would say most people, if somebody had assured them, if I can take away all the pain that you're feeling and you could still have your life, would you want to be here?

Speaker 2 Hell yeah. Right?

Speaker 2 Hell yeah. Exactly.
Right.

Speaker 1 And that's why I'm saying this to you as you're listening to me in Oakley. Tell someone if you're having big and scary and overwhelming thoughts.

Speaker 2 Tell anyone. Just tell anyone.

Speaker 1 Why would you say that?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 just like getting it out and saying it is so crucial to making your first step into solving this problem. And it honestly doesn't matter who you tell.
All you need to do is tell someone something.

Speaker 2 As long as you trust them, as long as you care, all you have to do is tell someone.

Speaker 1 I also want to tell you, if you're having big and scary and overwhelming thoughts, you're not fucked up.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 Those thoughts are temporary. They will pass.
And they are going to pass so much quicker when you get them out of your head and you tell someone.

Speaker 1 You know, my friend Amy, who you know, Oak, she said when you have big scary thoughts like that, she heard a therapist say it's like being trapped in a paper bag. You can't say anything.

Speaker 1 You can't think of anything else to do. It sort of clouds your mind.
But the second you find the courage to say it out loud to somebody, it's like that paper brag. It just shreds.

Speaker 1 And you'll realize and you'll see that you're not alone anymore. There are people there that can help you and will help you.
And what you're experiencing is normal. And you can get through this.

Speaker 1 And so I had a question

Speaker 1 because you just said to everybody, Oak, that

Speaker 2 you

Speaker 1 didn't

Speaker 1 tell me about what was happening freshman year.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 And what would you advise somebody who is listening to this right now, who relates to what you're talking about, and maybe they haven't told anyone?

Speaker 1 The reason why I'm asking this is I know so many parents and aunts, and uncles, and teachers, and therapists are going to forward this episode to young adults and college students in their life.

Speaker 1 And just people they're worried about. So, knowing that you just explained that you were worried I would make something of it, you didn't want to get into it, you thought you could handle it.

Speaker 1 Knowing what you know now,

Speaker 1 what would you say to that person who hasn't told somebody?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 if you are

Speaker 2 close in age to me, I don't know, teenager, mid-20s, mid, I don't know, college, high school, middle school, whatever,

Speaker 2 it

Speaker 2 does not matter what is going on in your head.

Speaker 2 If it is overwhelming, if it is scary, if it is stopping you from doing things that you can normally do,

Speaker 2 you should always, always, always, always, always tell someone.

Speaker 2 And you may be worried that it'll make things weird or it'll change things in your life.

Speaker 2 And it most likely will, but it is going to change your life for the better.

Speaker 2 In the beginning, for me at least, I thought to myself that, hey, I can keep this in. Like, I've done it before.
I've done it 10,000 times before. Like, I can do it again.

Speaker 2 And yeah, you can do it in the beginning. But instead of waiting till you collapse, just get it over with right in the beginning and tell someone.
It's all you have to do.

Speaker 1 It'll make it better.

Speaker 2 It will make it better.

Speaker 1 Do you wish you had told me earlier when it was happening in ninth grade?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I do too. Because I doubt it would have come back in sophomore year.
Oh,

Speaker 1 that's

Speaker 1 true. Maybe it wouldn't have.

Speaker 1 Okay, let's just hit pause right now, Oak, and hear a word from our sponsors. And when we come back, I want you to tell everybody what happened sophomore year.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins.

Speaker 1 I'm here with our 17-year-old son, and we are unpacking two mental health breakdowns that he had. One was freshman year.
And as you now know, I was unaware of it at the time.

Speaker 1 And Oak is about to explain the breakdown that he had sophomore year of high school. So what happened sophomore year?

Speaker 1 Because you said, you know, this anxiety hit you for a week period in March freshman year.

Speaker 2 Gone, forgotten about.

Speaker 2 But the shit hit the fans sophomore year. Gone.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 it's terrifying.

Speaker 2 Flashback.

Speaker 2 Beginning of sophomore year. Sophomore year is awesome.
I loved my sophomore year. Great friends,

Speaker 2 great experiences, great classes, super fun.

Speaker 2 It was great.

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 the same time, March, or was it April? Might have been April. I think we're going to have to track this this year.
We will have to track this. Hey, it's coming to that time.
Let's see.

Speaker 2 Not yet. Anyways, April comes around

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 everything's good. And then in my English class,

Speaker 2 my teacher had us write a memoir. And so I wrote about my experience that I had freshman year.
Okay. The blue ceiling.
And so by writing that, I...

Speaker 2 I basically like mentally dove back into that time and I remembered how I felt freshman year. And I remembered what it was like.
And I remember the hopelessness and the anxiety.

Speaker 2 I kind of brought myself back to a time where I was super vulnerable and I had to go back and be vulnerable in that moment. And then

Speaker 1 I can see your eyes tearing up just thinking about it.

Speaker 2 Not really, not in this moment. A little bit.
Okay. Not gonna lie.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 those thoughts are fresh in my mind. And since I was a sophomore and it was a year later, I wanted to try and like unpack it and think about what it actually meant, why I felt that way.

Speaker 2 And while I was doing that, like a week rolled around. And the next week in that class, my English teacher, again,

Speaker 2 showed us a movie.

Speaker 2 And this movie

Speaker 2 was about

Speaker 2 climate change. And it was about how

Speaker 2 in like five years, it's irreversible and we're fucked.

Speaker 2 And it was like possible solutions and all this stuff. And then it told us what would happen if these solutions didn't happen.

Speaker 2 And so I come out of the movie and I'm like, what could we do? Like realistically, like as a world, like what can we do? Okay.

Speaker 2 So I started thinking about my town and then my state and then my country and then the world. And then I was like, what if we can't do anything? What like, can somebody else help us?

Speaker 2 And I was like, is there somebody else? And I was thinking about the universe. And then I was thinking about like,

Speaker 2 like expanding, expanding, expanding, expanding, we become a pebble. We become a a grain of sand.
We become literally like nothing. Like we become nothing in my mind.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, it's like a light switch in my mind where I'm like, holy shit, like nothing matters.

Speaker 2 Absolutely nothing matters to me. Nothing I do.

Speaker 1 Do not get yourself back in that state.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, I was just like, like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 So nothing matters. Nothing I do will have an effect.
Nothing anybody does will change anything. So why do anything?

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 2 And so I thought about that and I kept thinking about that being like, there has to be an answer. There has to be an answer.
Like a week passes and there's no answer.

Speaker 2 And then all of a sudden, I start to get these nervous anxiety attacks where I'm lightheaded and I can't think and everything is rushing out of my head and I'm scared and I'm confused.

Speaker 2 And it's all because

Speaker 2 in those moments, I keep telling myself that nothing I do is going to matter. No one I talk to, nothing I do, nothing will ever change anything.
It doesn't matter what I do.

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter what anybody does. The world's going to end.
Because the world, not the world's going to end, but just like in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. We do not matter.

Speaker 2 Climate change wasn't my thought. Okay.
It wasn't about the world ending. The movie about climate change sparked like a thing about like me thinking about

Speaker 2 the bigger picture.

Speaker 2 And then I realized that I was like, I don't matter. Nobody matters.

Speaker 2 The world doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 Well, let me pick up the story now.

Speaker 2 Well, it's not done yet.

Speaker 1 Well, because

Speaker 1 in this instance,

Speaker 1 you let us know what was going on.

Speaker 2 That is what was going on. There was one moment we were eating dinner together.
Yeah. And I just had to like get up and go to the bathroom and like look in the mirror and be like, you're okay.

Speaker 2 You're okay. You're okay.
Like, it's going to be okay. Like, you'll get through this.
And I was like, I, I was like, I can't. Like, I can't get through this.
Like, I can't do this.

Speaker 2 And in that bathroom, I was like, I, if this stays if this keeps up like i am going to kill myself like i will because like that's how scared i was like i couldn't live with this fact and i couldn't accept the fact that i felt like nothing mattered yeah it was a terrifying thing to go through with you it was so because you had a complete breakdown And you started explaining that these thoughts had been cascading and cascading and you didn't want to think this, but you didn't know how to stop it.

Speaker 1 i'll never forget that because i was holding you and you were crying and you were scared and i was crying and scared and it had just come out of nowhere that you had gone from just thinking and thinking and thinking and not telling us to a complete breakdown yeah

Speaker 1 and i asked you i was like

Speaker 2 are you in danger right now are you going to hurt yourself and you remember what you said i said no i was like i'm too scared to do that like i don't want to yeah and you you also said, no,

Speaker 1 but I can't live like this, mom. I can't keep thinking these thoughts.
And I kept going, what thoughts? And you kept saying, I don't matter. Nothing matters.

Speaker 2 I feel like even to this day, like I still can't truly explain the thoughts that I was having because it was just like,

Speaker 2 I can't like wrap my head around them. And so like, I was like, dying to like explain it to you.
And every time I like told you something, you'd be like, oh, so is it this?

Speaker 2 And I was like, that's not it. Like, that's not it.
I couldn't figure out what to say.

Speaker 1 You did a really good job of explaining it. You know, when I would have

Speaker 1 very acute moments of anxiety when I was younger,

Speaker 1 I would have this thing happen that was equally scary, Oak, where I didn't have the thoughts, nothing matters, nothing matters.

Speaker 1 I would all of a sudden feel this weird

Speaker 1 thing happen in my body.

Speaker 1 Like you, you called it like a switch that flipped. And all of a sudden, I would have this experience where everything

Speaker 1 felt fake.

Speaker 1 Almost like the Truman show. Right.
Or that your whole life is a set that's fake. And I would repeatedly have this feeling that if the wind blew, all of these walls in this room would just flop down.

Speaker 1 Like a TV set. Like a TV set.
And I would find myself in the middle of the desert with no one in sight. and the only person.
And is Earth even real? And is this room even real?

Speaker 1 Like, that's how it was. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.
So I understand what that's like. And for those of you wondering what we did, I went into first responder mode.

Speaker 2 Do you remember?

Speaker 2 You wouldn't let me sleep alone.

Speaker 1 Oh, I know. I slept

Speaker 2 in your bed. You wouldn't let me be alone.
You,

Speaker 2 oh my God, you took me out of school for a week.

Speaker 1 For mental health.

Speaker 2 We We went back to Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 Yep. To see doctors.
I wouldn't let you be alone. I wouldn't let you sleep alone.
I made you eat. Dad meditated with you.
Yeah. We got you into therapy as fast as possible.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You

Speaker 1 tried some medication that really helped.

Speaker 2 You're on it. It's the best.

Speaker 1 Help you climb out of that. Oh, man.
Like sometimes you need a ladder.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you do.

Speaker 1 Sometimes you also need a surfboard. And so they can work both ways and they work

Speaker 2 so that is what led you to therapy to therapy what a segue

Speaker 2 this is like oh wait also i've it's a 25 minute segue i want to say another thing can i talk about the john mayer song

Speaker 2 sure in terms of it okay like jumping back before we go to therapy the

Speaker 2 At the time, there was the song that I still love today,

Speaker 2 but I think it also contributed to my anxiety. It's,

Speaker 2 there's this like underground artist. His name is John Mayer.
I don't know if any of you know who he is, but he's super, I think he's a pretty good artist. And there's one of his songs.

Speaker 2 It's called Stop This Train.

Speaker 2 And basically like train symbolizes time and how like time keeps moving and like John

Speaker 2 I don't know if I should call him John. We're not friends, but like John Mayer wants the train or time to stop.
And it's like, it's just like him being like, stop, stop, time.

Speaker 2 Like, let me stay where I am. Like, I want to get off.
Like, I just want to be with what I am right now. And then it ends with him like talking to his dad.
And his dad's like, don't stop. Like, time.

Speaker 2 Like, you just want to hold on and just like keep going for as long as you can and just like appreciate it and be in it.

Speaker 2 Stop this train.

Speaker 2 I wanna get off and go home again.

Speaker 2 I can't take the speed it's moving in.

Speaker 2 I know I can't.

Speaker 2 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 It's making you emotional. Oh my God, it always does.

Speaker 1 Why? Why does that make you emotional?

Speaker 2 Because like time is just like, oh my God, that's too much. Like that's too scary.
Not scary, but like that's just so much to think about. Like how like time is just keep going to keep going.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I always have that feeling when I'm in a museum

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I'll be looking at a painting and I lean forward and it's like something has been painted in the 1800s.

Speaker 2 Jeez.

Speaker 2 Have you had that experience? I'm way too bored in a museum to ever pay attention to dates. So I would love to be like a museum guy, but I can't.

Speaker 2 Because it's just like fun and like mysterious and it makes you like more interesting.

Speaker 2 I've actually gotten into museums more than I used to be, but I don't know, my memories of museums were always just like, this is the most boring thing ever, like staring at a wall for 15 minutes.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, your mother is having a small existential crisis as she's looking at paintings because as I lean forward, I'm like, this was painted in the 1800s.

Speaker 1 That means there is a person standing in front of this canvas, 200

Speaker 1 and whatever years ago. I can't even do the math on this.

Speaker 1 And they're not here anymore.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it makes me feel so small in the timeline of humanity.

Speaker 1 And it's the same kind of thing that you're talking about.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so like that song just sparked something in me where I was like, time is going to keep going and like it won't like slow down.
It won't slow down. And like that's scary.

Speaker 2 And like that added to everything. And that's the whole John Mayer story.
Anyways, John Mayer, if you're listening, please contact me immediately because I love you.

Speaker 2 I remember that day.

Speaker 1 That John Mayer song, Stop the Train, it hit you really emotionally because you were in this amazing place in your life. It was your sophomore year.
You were happy. And you were so happy.

Speaker 1 You wanted time to slow down because you were loving your life so much and you didn't want high school to be passing by so quickly.

Speaker 2 When I

Speaker 2 was able to call you and I was like, Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sobbing again, you love to cry. You're a good crier

Speaker 1 because you were so grateful for

Speaker 1 your life and that song played. And you were calling me from the high school parking lot crying about how much you love your life.

Speaker 1 And who knew that just three weeks later, it would like

Speaker 1 boom, it would completely collapse and you would be in

Speaker 1 probably the worst mental breakdown I've ever seen you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Really scary as a parent.

Speaker 1 And I'm proud of you, though. I'm proud of you for

Speaker 1 asking for help,

Speaker 1 for telling us the truth,

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 1 seeing a therapist, for taking medication, for turning toward it to figure it out.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm really proud of you.
Thank you. So, Tommy, Keith, we said present day, Keith.
Present day, my therapist, the goat, Keith, he's awesome. He's in California, so we Zoom.

Speaker 2 And he's just this like super chill, spiritual guy. Used to be a surfer.
Like, he's just like the coolest dude ever. And I love him because he's like such a smiley guy and he's just like fun.

Speaker 2 And he's taught me all this stuff.

Speaker 2 Our beginning lessons were a lot on

Speaker 2 purpose. And I came to the conclusion with his help that

Speaker 2 life

Speaker 2 does not matter.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 us as individuals

Speaker 2 can make it matter by using purpose and finding our purpose.

Speaker 2 And so what I discovered with him is that like

Speaker 2 these thoughts about life not mattering are going to be here.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't mean they're going to stay

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 over time when I live my life I'm going to Discover the reason why I want to be here Yeah, and why you matter and it doesn't have to change anything and it doesn't have to do anything, but I'm just like looking for

Speaker 2 My purpose and like my reason to be like well, that's why I'm here and that's why I want to live and that's why like stuff like that So I just want to see if you can go a little deeper in explaining something.

Speaker 1 Because when you first started working with your therapist, Keith, you were in the middle of these catastrophic, kind of overwhelming, scary thoughts.

Speaker 1 And it's interesting that where you guys started was with the topic of purpose. And I understand that this was happening in parallel with a

Speaker 1 medical doctor giving you a antidepressant to kind of act like a ladder to help you stabilize. Still on them.
Still on them. Still great.

Speaker 2 Still taking them. Guys, they're great.
Okay.

Speaker 2 But what was it about the topic of purpose

Speaker 1 that really helped you see your way?

Speaker 1 through these scary and overwhelming thoughts. Because the other thing that I've read about the research of this is that

Speaker 1 this is very common, whether you're triggered by thinking about things like climate change, or if you're thinking about

Speaker 1 racism

Speaker 1 or systematic discrimination, or you are experiencing extreme poverty.

Speaker 1 or you lose somebody that you love, it can lead you to deeply contemplate the meaning of life.

Speaker 1 And people that are more empathetic or introverted tend to do this more,

Speaker 1 but it can happen to anybody. And so I found it really interesting that it was a conversation about purpose that helped you

Speaker 1 start to gain more control about the way that you were thinking. So, can you explain

Speaker 1 how that helped you?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I feel like what our conversation about purpose did for me

Speaker 2 was that

Speaker 2 even though at this point in time

Speaker 2 I felt like life had no meaning, the conversation about purpose kind of

Speaker 2 strengthened a thought in my mind about how that at one point in my life, I'll do something. or I'll meet someone or I'll go somewhere that will just like give me this feeling

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 2 belonging and a reason to live and a reason to be here. And that will be like my reason to be on this earth.

Speaker 2 And like one day I'll be like, hey, this thing that I've discovered about myself that I really like is like my reason to be here. And this is why I'm on this earth.

Speaker 1 Can I

Speaker 2 go a little deeper? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because at the time that this was happening,

Speaker 1 how would you describe your relationship with your family?

Speaker 2 Good.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I feel like my relationship has always been good.
So

Speaker 1 and did you have friends?

Speaker 2 Plenty. I even had a girlfriend.

Speaker 1 And did you

Speaker 1 enjoy school?

Speaker 2 Loved it. Still do.

Speaker 1 So the only thing about your life that wasn't working were these thoughts.

Speaker 2 Yeah, these thoughts,

Speaker 2 it's not even that it fully clouded my judgment. I still loved my friends and you guys and everybody in my life, but I just

Speaker 2 didn't see why that mattered.

Speaker 1 Because you have all this stuff handled and now your mind is starting to take you to these dark places.

Speaker 2 Got it.

Speaker 1 And I think that's important because it just goes to show you, no matter what's happening on the outside in somebody's life, they seem like they're enjoying school, they have a great girlfriend, they've got good friends, they have a family that they're connected to, that their thoughts might actually still be a very scary place.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I wanted to point that out because

Speaker 1 you just can't assume that you know what somebody's reality really is. I mean, I didn't even know.

Speaker 2 Nobody did.

Speaker 1 Not in ninth grade.

Speaker 2 No. Well, yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, I knew very well in sophomore year yeah but i also find it very interesting because when you believe

Speaker 1 that you are here for a reason

Speaker 1 and that your life

Speaker 1 is leading you somewhere that there is something unique for you to discover that's on the road ahead might be tomorrow might be a year from now, might be 10 years from now, might be longer from now.

Speaker 1 But kind of approaching life like it's almost like a gift that you unwrap to discover what's inside, that thought was like a seed that he planted that has taken root. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I hear you talking a lot pretty frequently about

Speaker 2 purpose. It's like my personality now.

Speaker 2 All of my friends and like everybody I talk to at some point, we always come into this conversation where I'm like, you know, I'm actually like, I don't see a reason to living and I'm actually looking for purpose.

Speaker 2 And they're like, what?

Speaker 1 You're a really intellectual guy. Cause I would label this an existential crisis, which is basically questioning existence.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's what happened to you.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 that happens to a lot of people. It's a very normal thing.
And so are big and scary thoughts.

Speaker 1 Thank you for telling me that.

Speaker 2 Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 Anything else on that topic that you want to share?

Speaker 2 No, I don't know. Anything you also want to know?

Speaker 2 Are you okay right now?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Is that an honest answer?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 1 When's the last time you had a big and scary thought?

Speaker 2 To be honest, the thoughts are still there. Yeah.
They're there like every day. But they're more like a

Speaker 2 in the back of my head kind of thing where it's like, oh, yeah, this is true. And I'm just like, well, yeah, it is true.
But, you know, who cares?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's an amazing attitude, Oak.

Speaker 1 So do you have a sense of what your purpose is?

Speaker 2 Absolutely not. But that doesn't like, that's not daunting to me.
Like, I'm 17. Like, I'm not expecting to have it all figured out.
Like, I know that it's going to take a while, like 10, 15, 20, 25.

Speaker 2 Like, it could take as long as it needs to. And I'm okay with that because I just know that like at some point in my life, like, I will

Speaker 2 find something where I'm like, this is it. Like, this is why I'm here.
And this is what I want to do.

Speaker 1 I think I have something for you to chew on if you want to hear it.

Speaker 2 I don't. Because

Speaker 2 it's like for me, like, this is my, like, you can tell me your purpose and you can tell me what you think mine is, but I need to find mine. Like, it has to come from me.
And I have to believe that.

Speaker 2 And that's only going to be genuine if it's from me. So, I guess, like, basically,

Speaker 2 if any of you are worried about me out there, appreciate it, but should they be?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 And then this then segues into tonight. He just told me something

Speaker 2 that I really, that really resonated with me.

Speaker 1 Oh, I want to hear it. So this was a thing that made you walk into the kitchen.

Speaker 2 I mean, I always walk into the kitchen after Keith and I'm like, I love Keith. He's Keith is awesome.
But like, so this was a little life-changing thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Let me hear it. So he was basically like, when you were born,

Speaker 2 when your, your mom and your dad, I'm going to quote my biology teacher, when your mom and your dad did the special hug,

Speaker 2 you

Speaker 1 that is what?

Speaker 2 Your high school, yeah, my high school, but it's so funny. My high school in class, in like whenever we're talking about um, like DNA and like uh natural selection and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 Whenever my high school teacher like talks about how like there's offspring created, he's like, when the mom and the dad do the special hug, it's like, it's like, okay.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 so when you and dad did the special hug

Speaker 2 last night,

Speaker 2 whatever. My, when,

Speaker 2 when you and dad did the special hug and conceived me, my universe was created. Yes.
The universe that I live in was technique, like created for me.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And he basically told me where it was like,

Speaker 2 this is going to sound super self-centered at first, but I have had the belief for my whole life where it's like, I am the most important person to me.

Speaker 1 Yes, you should be.

Speaker 2 Which should be true for everybody. Yes.
It's not true for everybody because humans were like evolved from a form where we had to be social and like put others in front of us to basically survive.

Speaker 2 So it feels normal and it feels right to do it now. But in reality, the most important person to yourself is you.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he was basically just like, when you do anything, you should ask yourself, do you want to live in your universe where this happens? So it's like, paint a hypothetical situation.

Speaker 2 Let's say you are about to go behind your friend's back and do something wrong that would hurt them. Do you want to be in a universe where you've done that?

Speaker 2 Do you want to remember that?

Speaker 2 And he was like, you can keep asking yourself this question because if you think about it, your life is your own and you pick and choose what happens in your life.

Speaker 2 And so, before anything happens, you should ask yourself:

Speaker 2 Do

Speaker 2 I want this to remain in my life?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because it stays there, you're right.

Speaker 2 It will always stay there.

Speaker 1 And I have this vision, almost like an illustration of somebody and they're in like a dark room, and there's like this particle thing all around them, and that's the universe. And so,

Speaker 1 interesting.

Speaker 2 It's just how

Speaker 2 this is your life.

Speaker 2 What I took away from it is that

Speaker 2 even if life

Speaker 2 and our existence on earth does not matter. Yep.

Speaker 2 Even if that's true.

Speaker 2 You

Speaker 2 are still experiencing a life.

Speaker 2 You still feel the emotions from that life.

Speaker 2 You still experience things.

Speaker 2 You still live it.

Speaker 2 And so just because

Speaker 2 life does not matter, you are still living a life and you should be living a life.

Speaker 1 In a universe.

Speaker 2 In a universe that is your own that you enjoy. Yes.

Speaker 2 Because that's all you can do. Yeah.
It's all you need to do.

Speaker 1 We're so busy chasing shit outside our own universe.

Speaker 2 All that matters is what is right in front of you.

Speaker 1 How did that flip a switch for you?

Speaker 2 Because I felt like I was on the hunt for

Speaker 2 the big answer, the big purpose, the big question.

Speaker 2 It was going to like come to me and I was going to be like, whoa, enlightened, like

Speaker 2 floating meditation Buddha over here.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it was more just like, purpose will come to me, but in the meantime, I'm going to be present to what I feel and what I do. And so why not feel and do what I want to?

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 1 I got a lot out of that visual of the universe and that that's the universe that gets created.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 at least when you become an adult,

Speaker 1 you really do get to choose what's a part of it and what's not.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And you can choose what's left and what isn't.
And anything you do will remain. So you should always be asking yourself,

Speaker 2 in my universe, do I want there to be a part of me that has done this?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Your extraordinary, ordinary life.

Speaker 1 Your extraordinary, ordinary life. Say something more about that.

Speaker 2 It's from the movie About Time.

Speaker 1 Our family's favorite movie.

Speaker 2 It's the best movie ever.

Speaker 2 So there's actually two quotes that I really like. We're all traveling through time together, every day of our lives.
All we can do is do our best to relish this remarkable ride.

Speaker 2 The second one is:

Speaker 2 I just try to live every day as if I've deliberately come back to this one day to enjoy it, as if it was the full, final day of my extraordinary, ordinary life

Speaker 1 that's beautiful yeah

Speaker 1 hmm

Speaker 1 well

Speaker 2 i love you

Speaker 2 love myself and i love you too

Speaker 1 you're the best dude thank you mom best all right well in case nobody else tells you today i wanted to tell you that i love you so do i and i believe in you i do as well and um

Speaker 2 make this universe your own make your universe your own.

Speaker 1 You get to choose what is staying in that universe and what you're not taking in there. And I love what you said.
You might as well just enjoy it. All right, everybody.
We love you.

Speaker 2 Love you too. Talk in a few days.
Bye.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 one more thing.

Speaker 1 It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

Speaker 1 It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Speaker 1 Stitcher.

Speaker 2 The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar.
Your lucky jersey, your chairs, and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space.

Speaker 2 And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist, and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an SUV.
It's your Equinox.

Speaker 2 Chevrolet, together let's drive.

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