‘The Bear’ Season 4 Finale: Is This the End, or A New Beginning?

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Speaker 2 Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast where we don't know how to smoke a cigarette, but we're doing our best. I'm Charles Holmes.
He's Van Lathan. Today, we're known as the Midnight Boys.

Speaker 2 And we're back to discuss season season four finale of the Bear. A little housekeeping for y'all.
All right. This is our last episode covering season four of the bear.

Speaker 2 But if you want some more TV goodness, make sure you tap in with our homies over at the House of R. They are covering Squid Games Season 3 and the Midnight Boys.
We're locked in this week.

Speaker 2 We got a Midnight Court cooking for you. All right.
We got, what else are we talking? Jurassic Park. Iron Heart.
Iron.

Speaker 2 We're talking about Iron Heart.

Speaker 2 But today, we're talking about

Speaker 2 the season finale

Speaker 2 of season four of The Bear Goodbye, directed by Christopher Storer, written by Christopher Storer. Before I get into the plot of this episode, how are you feeling?

Speaker 2 I watched you watch this live at our desk. It was a very emotional episode.
Very emotional. A lot of emotions for me.
And you kept pausing. It was so emotional.

Speaker 2 You kept pausing and turning to Jomi and food shaving him, laughing at the food, his lunch choices.

Speaker 2 There's a bit that I like to do, a gimmick if you will I have a lot of different gimmicks but when someone's eating

Speaker 2 I like to watch them eat and go yeah take a bite of that

Speaker 2 that's my biggest pet peeve that pisses me off it's like you're eating somebody's eating a burger and you're hanging you're watching them and you're like hey man why don't you take a bite of that burger they're already eating it

Speaker 2 why don't you take a bite of that burger for some reason When someone is eating something, if you ask them to eat it, they'll be like, they don't want to do it.

Speaker 2 But it's even worse when it's like a burrito or a burger because I'm just like, there's no way to like eat that shit and look fly. Like, you just are like, get in there.

Speaker 2 I started doing this back in the day with shrimp pole boys.

Speaker 2 We would get shrimp pole boys from Rainbow Market, Gardier, Baton Rouge Lee's in. We'd sit down and we eat them.
And, you know, somebody would be tearing

Speaker 2 their po-boy up. I'd be like, hey, bro,

Speaker 2 man. Handle that shrimp, pole boy.
Get in there. And for some reason, it just bothers people.
And it's funny to me. It's so annoying.

Speaker 2 But the plot of this episode of the bear, goodbye.

Speaker 2 Everything finally comes to a head as Carmy reveals to Sid that he's leaving her in charge of the restaurant.

Speaker 2 Carm's reasoning is that he's fallen out of love with cooking and doesn't know who he is as a person without it.

Speaker 2 Sidney doesn't take the news well and posits that Carm is being self-destructive and leaving the restaurant behind just as it's starting to get off the ground.

Speaker 2 Then Carm and Sidney finally discuss how she was very close to jumping ship to work with Shapiro.

Speaker 2 This process is then repeated with Richie, who finds out that Carm did, in fact show up at Mikey's funeral, but left before anyone could see him.

Speaker 2 Sydney says the only way she'll take over at the bear is if Carm adds Richie to the ownership group alongside her and Sugar.

Speaker 2 And we leave the episode with Sugar hugging a very rock army as a clock that's been ticking all season finally counts down.

Speaker 2 With all that being said,

Speaker 2 Van, did they land the plane? They did.

Speaker 2 Wasn't a smooth landing. It was a rocky landing.
I don't know if they landed the plane. It was very rocky to me.
So let me tell you something. Let me tell you the way I look at this.

Speaker 2 I liked this episode. I don't buy what happened in this episode narratively.
What part?

Speaker 2 Carmy leaving the bear

Speaker 2 seems like it serves

Speaker 2 the business of television more than it serves the television show. Okay.

Speaker 2 It serves the fact that

Speaker 2 for this season to have steadied the show, which I think that it did, and re-established some things about the show, which I think that it did,

Speaker 2 that there wasn't really a real dramatic guillotine hanging over the show.

Speaker 2 So they kind of jinnied something up. You would have thought that perhaps whether or not the bear was going to make it in terms of the countdown would have been the thing.

Speaker 2 But that ended up kind of being resolved to a degree, a little bit. So Carmy leaving even though it happened you know he wanted to change it

Speaker 2 the agreement should i say a couple episodes ago or whatever it was and we saw that carmy leaving

Speaker 2 is kind of abrupt it's

Speaker 2 not well developed

Speaker 2 and it's kind of a stunt almost well they hinted they did hint at it no no no they hinted at it but it wasn't something that i feel like the show really devoted a lot of time to. No.

Speaker 2 Because it was, there were two tracks I feel like for Carmy.

Speaker 2 And the track that they spent so much time on this season was him getting out of the kitchen and reconnecting with his family, with his mother, with Claire, and coming to terms with that part of his life outside of cooking.

Speaker 2 To your point, the other track was, is this what he even wants to do? Does he want to continue being a chef? Does he find love and satisfaction in it?

Speaker 2 And I tend to agree with you where I'm like,

Speaker 2 the more interesting, the more interesting dramatic tension to me was

Speaker 2 Sid Carmy at Polar Ends and being like, who is going to leave? Who is going to stay? Can this restaurant survive?

Speaker 2 And they kind of at the end just kind of did the TV thing where it's like, of course, the restaurant is going to survive.

Speaker 2 But now Carmy is this nebulous being where either it's going to be like Eric leaving that 70 show or a very prominent member like leaving a show where I'm like, either

Speaker 2 Jeremy Allen White isn't on the bear or what I'm more so thinking is,

Speaker 2 is this Christopher Store getting to have his cake and eat it too,

Speaker 2 where he can continue the adventures of Karm outside the restaurant and do the more artistic flourishes, the more off the beaten path episodes, while still giving people the sitcom flavor of all your favorite characters are in one place.

Speaker 2 Like, where did you net out? Because I was just like, they haven't announced that there's going to be a fifth season. There hasn't been a lot of interviews that I've seen.
At the end of

Speaker 2 this finale, where do you feel like it was going? I have no clue.

Speaker 2 I try not to

Speaker 2 mix up the business of the show with

Speaker 2 my appreciation for the show as a viewer. Yeah.
Meaning,

Speaker 2 I try not to look at, you know, how well is the bear rating right now?

Speaker 2 What is the critical response to the bear? Like, how is the buzz? All of that.

Speaker 2 Because you can get a gauge of how keen they are to bring a show that has been this type of prestige thief for FX for this long.

Speaker 2 You can get a gauge on how keen they are to bring that show back by looking at all those factors.

Speaker 2 For us, and the purposes of what we're doing right here, in my enjoyment of a show that I've really been into,

Speaker 2 I try to just look at it as to how I feel about it.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 without

Speaker 2 pontificating too much on

Speaker 2 whether or not Jeremy Allen White will come back for another season, and I'm only doing this for the purposes of this podcast. Obviously, all these questions are in my head.
I'm trying to think of

Speaker 2 what's the real impact and point of what I just looked at.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I don't buy it. I enjoyed the episodes.
Very emotional, very raw. There was going to be a point where all of this stuff was going to come to a head.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 His appearance at the

Speaker 2 funeral for the time that he was there. This situation with him and Sid, just him and Sid's relationship, period.
Yep. The Shapiro call.
The Shapiro call.

Speaker 2 What the partnership agreement was actually about. All of that stuff was going to come to a head.
It hit me watching some of my favorite people on TV going through all of this stuff,

Speaker 2 but I didn't feel any resolution. I never felt like there was a weight off my shoulders.
I never felt like some of the other television moments you go, well, oh, wow, it was leading up to this.

Speaker 2 Didn't get there. And maybe it wasn't supposed to.
This episode, Goodbye,

Speaker 2 was unrealistic in a way where it's like, obviously, none of this is realistic in terms of like, it's all fantasy, but

Speaker 2 everything happened in this episode. And usually I feel like the bear is very good at like kind of sewing a bunch of the tension and the storylines and the plots together throughout an episode.

Speaker 2 But it was just like, no, this is Sid, Carmy, Richie

Speaker 2 in the back of the bear, just having all of the arguments at the same time.

Speaker 2 And to me, I don't know if that was the right choice for, especially for a finale, where it felt like, all right, Sid and Carmy get their turn and they're going to about their working relationship, Shapiro, what they love, what they hate about each other.

Speaker 2 Okay, now it's Richie's time, and Richie's going to get to talk.

Speaker 2 And then Sugar's, and it felt more like watching a factory line than it did feel like a story,

Speaker 2 like a story to your point that felt like resolved in some way.

Speaker 2 And obviously, this is TV and it continues and it continues and it's never resolved, but I did not get that like this is a finale episode. It almost felt like a bottle episode.
Yeah, I mean, look,

Speaker 2 there's as I was watching it, you saw me watching it. I'm like, wow, this is very intense.
This is a lot. Well, acted.
Well, incredibly well acted.

Speaker 2 And you start to realize they're not going to give you a break from what's happening here. You're not leaving this spot.
Yep. They're not going to take you somewhere else and watch Marcus fuck around.

Speaker 2 And the facts aren't going to come in and give you any comedy. You're here.
You're in the middle of it. What I appreciated about that is

Speaker 2 I've been in that situation in arguments with people before. Yes.
Or intense conversations with people before to where you go, shit.

Speaker 2 For as

Speaker 2 long as this takes, I'm right here. And I'm not moving.
I can't move. This is my Sunday.
This is my Friday afternoon. It's me and her or me and him or me and them.
And I'm in this right now.

Speaker 2 You're in this situation. And the show did a fantastic job of making me feel that.

Speaker 2 Carmy won't let Sid out. Sid won't let Carmy out.
I have to say this. You have to hear this.

Speaker 2 There's no more dancing around it. That was great.

Speaker 2 Richie, the same way, doesn't really know how to approach the conversation with Carmy, doesn't understand what Carmy's trying to say.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 after a while,

Speaker 2 they

Speaker 2 come to these great revelations kind of easily. Yeah.
Richie,

Speaker 2 you know, has had these things that he wanted to tell Carm for X amount of time, and he never found the motivation or the wherewithal to tell him. And then it just all comes out.

Speaker 2 And it worked on screen because it was fun and compelling to watch, but I did not feel it. I didn't believe it.
You know, you remember Almost Famous? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay, so the band is not fucking getting together, getting along.

Speaker 2 And there's a plot device that

Speaker 2 the plane is about to crash that makes all of them start talking about like how they really feel about each other and like what they really mean and all of that stuff.

Speaker 2 And you kind of get to a and there's some comic relief in there. And you kind of get to a situation where you go, oh, okay, kind of makes sense.

Speaker 2 And then everybody gets off the plane and they're all frazzled and stuff like that. It wasn't very satisfying.
It didn't feel like

Speaker 2 I, it just felt like shit happening.

Speaker 2 I will say this: for a lot of of this season, I feel like there have been, to your point, these plot devices, these constructs, where it's like the biggest one was the clock counting down.

Speaker 2 And that's what they like. Store and co

Speaker 2 were telling the audience, like, all right, they have the X amount of time for the bear to continue and to be successful.

Speaker 2 And even that felt a little bit like, oh, that wasn't really the most important thing. Oh, no, the clock was counting down to this moment.
It wasn't counting down to the end of the restaurant.

Speaker 2 It was counting down to this moment. But when we get to this moment,

Speaker 2 to your point, it felt a little bit artificial. Like the reality of how I agree with you, the reality of how people

Speaker 2 argue in that moment, where it's like, we're not leaving. Sidney and Carmy and Carmy and Richie were always leading to this moment.
But there was a point where I was just like, but why tonight?

Speaker 2 Like, what was it about tonight that this was the moment? Right. And I don't know if they really set that up well.

Speaker 2 We don't even get to see, and this is an artistic choice, what happened in the kitchen. We just get the two of them talking like, you were ignoring me the entire night.
That doesn't feel good.

Speaker 2 What's going on? Right. And part of me almost kind of wanted to see what was, what precipitated the.
You know what I'm saying? Because what was the, what was the last episode before this?

Speaker 2 Sorry, we took a wee, uh, the weekend. It's the one where Marcus gets his chefness at the end.
Yeah. So that's to me a little even jarring where it's just like

Speaker 2 I left that episode being like, oh, okay, they kind of figured it out. Marcus is now one of the best new chefs.

Speaker 2 It seems like Uncle Jimmy and Computer have figured out that there is potentially a way to keep this financially going. They're like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

Speaker 2 We don't get to really see any of kind of the aftermath of that. We just get, they both walk out of the door and we're right into the argument, which works narratively for the episode.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it works for the season. Right.
It makes me almost...

Speaker 2 I ding the season a little bit more after this episode. I'm gonna go.
Yeah, because him leaving the bear is a fucking gigantic thing. It's a huge thing.
It doesn't feel gigantic.

Speaker 2 It doesn't feel like that big of a deal.

Speaker 2 It doesn't. It feels like a

Speaker 2 life-altering,

Speaker 2 a life-altering decision made lowercase. Yes.

Speaker 2 You know, it doesn't feel like that big of a deal. I'm like, okay, well, so he's gone.
So he just decided he couldn't cook anymore.

Speaker 2 He was cooking for all of these reasons that were outside of his actual love for cooking. Cooking was an escape.
The obsession was an escape.

Speaker 2 And he continued to stack up challenges to go back and get that feeling. And he doesn't want to feel that way anymore.
So now he's gone.

Speaker 2 There also comes a point in watching shows like this, particularly workplace shows, where

Speaker 2 We have jobs. Yes.
We have passions. We have goals.

Speaker 2 As people, we understand

Speaker 2 what it's like to sacrifice for our passions, to sacrifice for our goals. Now,

Speaker 2 doubt I'm as good at anything as Carmy is at cooking, but still, it's like

Speaker 2 for you to make such a monumental choice about your life.

Speaker 2 I don't know. What's he going to do now?

Speaker 2 He's going to be a paper boy? Is he going to be a blogger? Like, he's going to be a food critic? Like,

Speaker 2 what's going to happen? Like, they didn't give us anything. It was, there there was tell and tell there was no show so

Speaker 2 when you look at the entire season it's a season where a lot of really

Speaker 2 dramatic things happened but then were resolved immediately yeah well can i ask you this because i don't want to leave your point too fast

Speaker 2 i had watched this entire season

Speaker 2 being on at least for carmy's journey being like Okay, well, Sugar is noticing that he's falling out of love with cooking and is the show and the writers and part of the engine of this season trying to tell us, what do you do when the thing that helps you through life, helps you through trauma and abuse is no longer that thing.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, that's interesting. But the minute he started talking, and this is probably good writing, the minute he started talking to Sid and Sid's face is kind of like,

Speaker 2 I don't love my job all the time. I don't love cooking all the time.

Speaker 2 She starts making very valid arguments where I was just like, I almost got taken out of the show where I was just like, yeah, Carmy is acting kind of like a little bitch.

Speaker 2 Like, not to get be no, no, no, I get it. But I mean, they told us that he was falling out of love with it, but they didn't.
They didn't make the case, though. That is, you said it.

Speaker 2 They did not make the case. I didn't leave this.

Speaker 2 I, throughout the whole season, I could understand that he was falling out of love with cooking.

Speaker 2 But they almost made it seem too black and white, like 0100, where I'm like, this is all a scale. I did not know that he was this out of love with cooking.
Right. You know, I stopped there.

Speaker 2 I thought that there was still some road. And I'll ask you this.
I don't even know if I believe

Speaker 2 in the gigantic decision that they're making, where I'm like, all right, we still kind of have this Michelin star hanging over our head.

Speaker 2 Carmy is like, I'm not leaving until we get the restaurant financially to a place and then I'm going. So I'm just like, if we get a season five and it's a pump fake and Jeremy Allen White is just in,

Speaker 2 is just in the bear still cooking, there is going to be a part of me where I was just like, wait, what was all that for then? Right. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I mean, to be honest with you, you can look at this season as a kind of proof of concept that they could do the show without him because a lot of the

Speaker 2 drama,

Speaker 2 humor,

Speaker 2 all of that stuff this season doesn't have much to do with Carmy.

Speaker 2 He still is the center center of it, and it's still his POV and all of that. But this was

Speaker 2 he wasn't doing the heavy lifting in this season that he was doing in seasons past.

Speaker 2 So if they're looking to do the show without him and bring everybody back, which once again, you know, we're talking about this huge summer in movies that is about to take place, and you're seeing

Speaker 2 fucking Richie as Ben Grimm.

Speaker 2 Carmy's Bruce Springsteen. Springsteen.
I was literally like, I can't count the numbers. Everywhere doing everything.

Speaker 2 So, you know, part of this might just be the old Big B business happening. But I don't know.
I watched it and I was like, huh, what a good half hour

Speaker 2 one act play of the bear. Yes.
Like, what a good half-hour one-act play of the bear.

Speaker 2 Do I believe that the show did enough to make me believe that Carmy, who has completely oriented his life around being a fantastic chef, is just going to leave and not cook anymore.

Speaker 2 Have they showed anything else that

Speaker 2 can replace what cooking is in his life? I mean,

Speaker 2 was that the reason why

Speaker 2 they were sprinkling in like his love of architecture and him on his days off going to a museum?

Speaker 2 Or like when he's talking about like in previous seasons, it seemed like he enjoyed decorating the restaurant and building the restaurant and what chairs go like more than he loved the food.

Speaker 2 So have they

Speaker 2 I feel like they have been sprinkling that he does have other interests. He just doesn't know them.
But once again, I'm like

Speaker 2 over a season of fucking television, it's you got to do a little bit more work. I know what I'm saying is, yeah, I know he has other interests.
Michael Jordan loves cigars.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? Like he has other interests. Michael Jordan liked to play golf.
Michael Jordan likes cigars. Like

Speaker 2 if you know about MJ, you know there's other shit that he liked to do. Play a little golf, cigar.
Maybe put down a little wager.

Speaker 2 Okay, like there's other things he likes to do, but the center of his life, how he measures himself, his religion is basketball. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if I'm thinking about Michael Jordan, when Michael Jordan gave up basketball for the small amount of time that he gave it up to Chicago legends we're talking about right now, Carmen and Jordan.

Speaker 2 The reason why he did it,

Speaker 2 and you know, all this is what I'm talking about in real life now. I know this was a tremendous tragedy for the Jordan family and for the sports world, but the reason why he did it was that type of

Speaker 2 earth-shattering

Speaker 2 perspective realignment thing,

Speaker 2 intense, immense

Speaker 2 tragedy regarding someone who we had always seen with Michael, which was his father.

Speaker 2 So when he decides that he's going to take time off and not play basketball, a lot of people went, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Like it makes sense that he would do that.

Speaker 2 Like it makes sense that, I mean, there's another way to look at it too, but you're like, it makes sense. He needs to clear his head in some way.

Speaker 2 How do you clear your head from something that terrible happening to you, from something that

Speaker 2 formative happened happening to you? Like reformative, meaning, because he's like a 30-year-old guy when it happens or whatever it is. Like, how do you make sense of that? Like, what do you do?

Speaker 2 Like, how do you get your life back on track when something that happens and it's everywhere?

Speaker 2 So, you know, maybe you go play minor league baseball or something like that, and then you come back to whatever, uh, come back to the thing that you love when you can breathe again, right?

Speaker 2 It just didn't happen here.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying that it had to.

Speaker 2 I'm not, when I'm not saying that something that tragic had to happen,

Speaker 2 maybe him reconciling with with his mother was supposed to be that. Maybe

Speaker 2 this show is saying that's not how life is. That sometimes decisions just happen.
And sometimes

Speaker 2 people just

Speaker 2 realize what's best for them. And maybe it's the culmination.
Maybe it's Claire. Maybe it's mom.
Maybe it's the conversation he has with his uncle.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's him realizing that things were just markedly different than he thought that they were. And he's different than he thought that he was.
All of that could be true.

Speaker 2 If that's the case, I needed a couple of more episodes or I needed, I just didn't feel it when it happened.

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Speaker 2 If we're giving the writing credit, do you think that what they're trying to say?

Speaker 2 Because I do agree with you, where it's like, traditionally, you kind of need something more explosive to lead to what is also another explosive decision, which is I'm leaving the thing that I love and I built.

Speaker 2 But you could also say that when Richie realizes that Karm came to the funeral and left, I think that that was part of the show being like the grieving process is not a straight line.

Speaker 2 Some people grieve

Speaker 2 right after the death. And then some, it takes people years.

Speaker 2 Like when you talk therapists or grief counselors, like some people, it takes them three, four, five years, 10 years, 15 years, and it hits them. And then it's like it happened yesterday.

Speaker 2 And I think partially,

Speaker 2 is that happening to Carmy? It could be. That's a very astute point.

Speaker 2 He could really just be starting to process the grief. that he feels for his brother.
And not just his brother, but we've talked about his brother.

Speaker 2 We've talked about his dad, the absence of his mother. He could be grieving a lot of different aspects of the life that he thought that he wanted to have.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 maybe

Speaker 2 the first stage of that, and look, we've also been, this scene that we haven't talked about this season, it was a great scene. It was with that lady from Sorry to Bother You.

Speaker 2 You know, the white lady, I'm sorry to bother you. What scene? She is

Speaker 2 there in

Speaker 2 a support group, the support group that calls it. Oh, it goes, yes, that was a great.
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic scene.
I don't know why we miss it.

Speaker 2 Just talking about this incident that happened with her brother. What happened was she's leaving.
Her brother struggled with addiction. And she told her brother to

Speaker 2 like water her plants. Yeah.
And she comes back and

Speaker 2 her worst

Speaker 2 fears about leaving him by himself are realized. A bunch of addicts are in her house.
Thank you, people on the couch. Throw up

Speaker 2 empty pizza boxes. The whole nine.
They've obviously been raging on benders and the whole nine.

Speaker 2 They get to, she gets to her brother. Her brother is in the bathtub, fully dressed, not

Speaker 2 where she thought he was going to be, which is OD'd somewhere. She finds him in the bathroom fully dressed.
And she sits down and she looks at him. She starts crying.

Speaker 2 And he says her brilliantly, brilliantly written monologue, by the way. Brilliantly written monologue.
He looks at her and he says,

Speaker 2 I watered watered the plants.

Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And when I watched that, I watched that like three times in a row. Right.

Speaker 2 The point of that to me is her talking about the things that she knew she, the thing that the stuff that she thought meant stability. What she thought meant

Speaker 2 stability was him watering the plants. Yeah.
That was the thing she was afraid of.

Speaker 2 She would think if he can remember to water the plants, or if he can water the plants, if he has enough responsibility,

Speaker 2 enough consistency to water the plants, then that must mean he's okay.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't mean that. There's no one thing that means you're okay.

Speaker 2 So if you're an excellent cook, if you're great at your job, if you're always on time, there's no one thing that means you're okay because he did water the plants. But everything else was fucked up.

Speaker 2 And for Carmy, he was a great chef is a great chef but everything else was up yeah and i knew that that's what that meant but i thought we would resolve it in a more linear way or

Speaker 2 i thought i would know when it was time to begin to resolve it i didn't i didn't see it coming it didn't i not only did i not see it coming I never, the show never got me to the point to where I felt like it had to happen.

Speaker 2 And that's the thing. It's like, okay, well, shit, it's really fucking happened to Carmy right now.
Like, Carmy is, it's

Speaker 2 whatever. It's just, he just kind of relented over the course of three or four episodes.
Someone would say, give me less components. He'd be like, yep.
Someone would say, hey, do it this way.

Speaker 2 He would be like, yep. Someone would say, yeah, he just relented.
And it was in.

Speaker 2 Maybe things will change after the immediacy of the episode kind of washes over me. And I go, hmm, maybe this was a different way to tell this story.

Speaker 2 But for right now, it kind of landed with a little bit of a thud. I still love this season, and I love this episode, but it landed with a little bit of a thud.

Speaker 2 So, to you, then, what do you think the significance of

Speaker 2 Carmy picking up a cigarette and smoking again? Because what I had

Speaker 2 realized in that moment where I was like, it doesn't feel like I don't know if the show is operating in this gray area for me, where

Speaker 2 could you argue that Sid is potentially right

Speaker 2 and that Carmy is pushing away

Speaker 2 his family, these people, something that's finally going good

Speaker 2 and potentially that?

Speaker 2 Like, he's doing things for the right reasons, but to me, when he picks up the cigarette again, I'm like, you're doing this because you do want to save the restaurant, but you are going about it in the least effective way possible.

Speaker 2 In almost a very destructive, I felt over the course of this episode, I'm like, Carmy's going about this in a very destructive way.

Speaker 2 Like, there was a, there was a lot, like, he could have had a conversation with Sid about, like, here's what I'm thinking

Speaker 2 about, like, myself and my role. This is why I want to leave.

Speaker 2 I want to change this. What do you think about it? Same thing with Richie, being like, hey, Rich, like, did it, did it, instead of doing that, basically, they have to catch him in it.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? It's almost, it's not an ambush, but it starts to feel like that because he's like, freaking out. He's like, yo, give me time.
It's, let me explain. And I'm like,

Speaker 2 to me, the part of the cigarette is just like, is he actually going back to some of his old ways? He is.

Speaker 2 I think it kind of illustrates that he just can't be at this point in his life a fully functional person. He

Speaker 2 kind of emotionally robs from Peter to pay Paul. Yeah.
So, you know, as you get older, what you start to realize is, you know, I spent my entire 30s at TMZ.

Speaker 2 I spent my entire 30s at TMZ

Speaker 2 ripping and running, being a bad partner, being a bad son, being like burning myself out,

Speaker 2 like trying to be up on everything. And I wasn't like breaking a whole bunch of stories because I didn't want to talk to people.

Speaker 2 You know, it's very difficult to talk to somebody after they've had a DUI.

Speaker 2 Because like

Speaker 2 a celebrity talking to you about their DUI, like after they've had it, because Other people would talk to reps. Yeah.
But some of these people, I know these people.

Speaker 2 And so like I would be see them around town and stuff like that so i get them on the phone man what happened

Speaker 2 bro man it's yo you ever had

Speaker 2 funny i won't name the celebrity but i was like yo bro like you you know they got you it's the whole thing it's like hey man you ever had a fireball

Speaker 2 i'm like what

Speaker 2 this happened he's like i'm like yeah i had a fireball he was like

Speaker 2 Man, them fireballs, they taste like

Speaker 2 peppermint. I'm like, yeah, I'm aware of what, like, what are you talking about? He's like, man, I was on them fireballs.

Speaker 2 And I just burst into laughter. So you mean to tell me you this kind of, you got this kind of career going and you get a DUI.
And what you're going to tell me on the phone is, man,

Speaker 2 I was on them fireballs. And I didn't even know I was as drunk.
That's what they took. And I didn't really even know what the joint was.
then because i didn't drink them in college like but also

Speaker 2 what celebrities drinking like come on nah this was you you'd have to know the type this was at so this was at a party somebody was leaving a party in the valley and they were going back to where they live and at this party in the valley i think maybe the people might have been a little bit younger or whatever and they were on the fireballs they didn't realize how fucked up they were they were taking the fireball they would hit the fire the fireball was hitting them right

Speaker 2 so but but for me but that that call was happening at

Speaker 2 Some weird random time where I should have been paying attention to something else. Like I was with

Speaker 2 Min Kaliga at dinner and I'm getting that call. I'm like, I have to take that call.
So then I have to go outside and I have to massage this person. And then I have to,

Speaker 2 because when they first pick up, they're going to be mad. How could you do this? You should help me not this not make the site and all of this stuff.
I can't do any of that.

Speaker 2 Like I have to talk to them. It's going to take a while.
Yeah. And that's coming out of my life.
Like that's, that's taking a chunk out of my life.

Speaker 2 That like even me to be able to come back and know that that I'm saying this call right now is more important than this dinner with this person.

Speaker 2 This call right now is more important than anybody else who called while I was doing that. And if you're in that life, that's the way that it's going down.

Speaker 2 So when I watched them have, when I watched Carmy and when I watched them have that conversation, the cigarette almost was like a hot potato.

Speaker 2 It almost was like Carmy was going to smoke the cigarette. She's trying to smoke the cigarette.
They're trying to share the weight in there. They're trying to share the weight.

Speaker 2 They're trying to share the emotionality of this but it can't be shared that's why when sugar comes in at the end she just breaks it down she sees them it's all empathy it's all emotion it's tears it's a hug roll credits because everyone else is they're trying to share it and maybe they're trying to disperse it for us

Speaker 2 and they're trying to make us

Speaker 2 They're trying to give us Richie's stuff and Sid's stuff.

Speaker 2 Sid is smoking for the first time because she is in this situation with the barzatos for the first time it's almost like she's taking communion yeah so it's like like all of this stuff is happening and i'm watching it and i get it i get it i get it i totally get it i relate to it i relate to people who have been too obsessed with career i relate to all of that

Speaker 2 but it's just tv honestly you brought up the godfather in one of the prior episodes this does feel like to your point, like this is a baptism for Sid.

Speaker 2 This is a communion where it's just like you decided to be part of the family. This is what being part of the family is and means.
Being let down by Carmy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But also what I think is so true about it. And this is why it's like, I don't want to like take a complete shit on the episode because I do think it is like a very, very interesting big swing is that.

Speaker 2 There is some truth because I've been through it.

Speaker 2 You've probably been through it where it's like when you're the person who's finally been burnt out and you're just like, it's an emergency, like, I can't do this. I can't be here.
I can't work here.

Speaker 2 I've had both things happen. I've had members of my family being like, just give me the, like, get out of there, da-da-da, whatever.

Speaker 2 And then the people you work with being like, no, we support you, we love you, but like, we're doing something special. Like, we're your family too.
Like, did it, did it, dot.

Speaker 2 And that thing where it's like,

Speaker 2 I get where Sid is coming from, where it's just like, well, I'm your family. I've just become like, I've just invested in you again and you're leaving me with this.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And even the Shapiro shit to me was very, very telling because it was like, when Carmy does that little bit, like, you can go Shapiro. I'm better than Shapiro.
Like, I was like, oh. Well, he did.

Speaker 2 It was funny for, that was funny. He's like, you're better than you, you're better than him? Yeah.
I smoke him. And you do too.
And then she goes, fuck off.

Speaker 2 Because he was just, he was letting her know if you want to to get your shit off

Speaker 2 and you want to go and do your own thing that's not the way to go and he also that was the most interesting part of the episode i'm glad that you brought that up he knew the whole time yeah

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 as as the audience i guess we kind of get that sense after he gets attention as the audience we get the feeling that She's hiding this big secret from him and she's got this big decision to make.

Speaker 2 But he goes, hey, you know, I've known him a long time.

Speaker 2 Like I've known, like, it almost felt like he was just like, I thought he was going to get surprised by the call. It almost felt like he's just like, I knew Shapiro was sniffing around here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's like, I know him for a long time. And the way he looked at it was,

Speaker 2 I mean, that shit's beneath you. Yeah, this nigga, not one of us.
I mean,

Speaker 2 seriously, that's the way he was looking at it. He was looking like he

Speaker 2 found Shapiro to be such an unserious challenger for Sid's services that he didn't even freak out about it because he knew she wouldn't do that.

Speaker 2 He's like, Yeah, he's like, I'm better than him. You're better than him too.
Like, yeah, you could have done this. You could do all kinds of stuff.
But

Speaker 2 I think him having that back and forth with her was him reiterating to her that he really does believe that she's good enough. to run the restaurant without him.

Speaker 2 Let's say Carmy didn't believe that Sid was good enough to run the bear without him. Would he have left anyway? I'll say the problem with that question is I don't think he even would have

Speaker 2 got, I don't even think he would have made the bear if Sid was not there. Like, I think that that's the thing that they've never understood.
He says, he says you're the bear.

Speaker 2 Like, I think he was just like, when he finds the money at the end of season one,

Speaker 2 and he kind of has the light bulb of like what we're going to do.

Speaker 2 I don't think we ever discussed this. You you not want to know what i really think happened

Speaker 2 the bear was his dream

Speaker 2 was mikey's dream with carm

Speaker 2 and i think once mikey

Speaker 2 like died

Speaker 2 that dream was gone and i think the minute sid walks through that door and he sees how good of a chef he is that relation he becomes the older brother he becomes the mikey And I think he's like, in the same way, Mikey was just like, no, you're the bear.

Speaker 2 You're the future of this family. You can do this.
I think Carmy is being the Mikey to Sid, being like, you can do this. And Sid just cannot see it.

Speaker 2 It takes Sid so because like, it's the same thing with Carm is surprised when his uncle is just like, yo, he talked about you all the time. He, he remembered the dishes.

Speaker 2 He remembered everything you said. I think that they're having that relationship dynamic of like, no matter what Sid hears from Carm, it's never enough because she's the little sister.

Speaker 2 How do you reconcile that thought with the fact that it was only Mikey's death that brought Carmy back to Chicago?

Speaker 2 Here's the thing. I think that Carmy,

Speaker 2 I think Carmy was always on a crash course, whether Mikey was here or not to come back to Chicago. I actually think

Speaker 2 it hurt him that he had to leave. And that's what makes this whole thing funny about him leaving the barren work.
It seems like he got pushed away.

Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. That's his major guilt.
His major guilt is I wasn't around for Mikey. Like he pushed me out.
Cause remember, Mikey didn't want him to work at the restaurant.

Speaker 2 He's like, get the fuck out of here. Sugar is giving him money.

Speaker 2 People are like, his whole family, it seems, basically did something where they were just like, hey, we're all kind of working in tandem to get Carmy out of Chicago. Honestly, that kind of explains

Speaker 2 a lot of the way that he acts. Cause he's kind of a spoiled brat a little bit.
They treat him like the baby. Yeah, right.
And he kind of acts that way, right? He like,

Speaker 2 and that's another part of it that I'm actually thankful that they tell the story the way they have to tell it. This entire thing is this man looking for the right way to grow up.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is the right way to grow up to

Speaker 2 pour into your ridiculous talents. And we only do this with talented people, by the way.
The only group, I swear to God, the only group of people that we care how they grow up is talented people.

Speaker 2 If you're not talented, no one gives a shit. Hey, my, oh my God, he's 19 years old.
He's just got 30 million from the NBA. Who's going to take care of him? Do you know what I mean? 19-year-olds

Speaker 2 need somebody to take care of them, need somebody to give them. You don't care about them.
We all like we,

Speaker 2 this is like such a low brow take, but I'm like, Carmy, I'm not saying I'm breaking news to everyone.

Speaker 2 Yes, when people are blessed with these talents and these opportunities, people act like it's the biggest tragedy in the world when they don't succeed.

Speaker 2 And when you have people that just need jobs and stability and all of that, we fucking treat them as completely disposable. So Carmy's entire family realizes that he's a fantastic chef.

Speaker 2 Maybe they don't realize that he's a fantastic chef, but I think that they do realize that he's a fantastic chef. And so they take a lot of shit off this guy.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 you could not come around if you did not come to one of,

Speaker 2 if we had a family funeral and you didn't just didn't show up to that bitch. The people I've, this has happened in my life.

Speaker 2 The siblings and the people who have not shown up at certain funerals, that shit still gets brought up. It's like a little, like, you ain't shit.

Speaker 2 Which is why when Richie is that mad, I felt that in my bones because to Richie, his belief is like, hey, yo, Carmy, like, I think of you differently because you didn't show up.

Speaker 2 And then the minute where it's like, no, I did,

Speaker 2 that is.

Speaker 2 They almost come to blows. Yeah.
Because Richie's like, why are you fucking with me? Right? They almost come to blows. They do that weird white boy.
You know how white boys put their heads together?

Speaker 2 Why y'all do that? Why white, CT?

Speaker 2 CT, why do white boys do that?

Speaker 2 Like when, because CT, why,

Speaker 2 like, why sometimes when white boys get ready to fight and they kind of don't really want to fight? Yeah. They will.

Speaker 2 Why they put their heads together like two Rams? Like, why they do that?

Speaker 6 I haven't been involved with a lot of fights, but I have to imagine it's like the toughest you can look without actually getting into a fight.

Speaker 2 That's the great. That's a great answer.
You can still look tough. Like, we

Speaker 2 is, you know, what's the black version of that? There used to be knock the chip off my shoulder. Did y'all have that? That was that's kind of old.

Speaker 2 What was that?

Speaker 2 So, not the chip off my shoulder.

Speaker 2 Now, I will say this, and Baton Rouge is not much himman and hon.

Speaker 2 Because, like, when the fight, when people, two people know that they're about to fight, the crowd will make you fight, or the old head will make you fight, or whatever. It's really toxic.

Speaker 2 I can't tell you how many times it's been somebody sitting with a beer, like, both of y'all, pussy.

Speaker 2 I've been watching y'all bump your goddamn gums for five minutes. Both of y'all, pussy, do something.

Speaker 2 You're fucking 42.

Speaker 2 Wait, so what's knocking you in the doctor? So knocking the chip off the shoulder is there was something that would happen where

Speaker 2 you would grab like something off the ground. It's like a rock.
It's a little piece of stick or something like that. And you put it on your shoulder and you'd be like, knock this off my shoulder.

Speaker 2 And if the person knocks it off your shoulder, then it's on. Now you're putting them in a situation to where

Speaker 2 you not willing to throw the first punch. Maybe they're not willing to throw the first punch, but you still want to call their shit a little bit.

Speaker 2 So you put the shit on their shoulder and you go, knock that shit off my shoulder. Now, this is like young, but and then if you knock it off, you gotta do it.

Speaker 2 But that's, that's the, I guess, the putting their heads together.

Speaker 2 This is, this is in, this is all races, but my favorite, whenever anybody does this, take their shirt off, I'm like, all right, man, we don't got to can't tell you something, though.

Speaker 2 If somebody started taking their shirt off in front of me, I would hit them while they were taking the shirt off. What? Yeah, for sure.
That's dirty.

Speaker 2 Same thing if somebody's starting to take their chain off.

Speaker 2 You just if you, if, if, if we to the point to where you're getting ready for the thing and I know that a fight is happening, this used to be so much. This is also toxic.
I apologize.

Speaker 2 But it would be a point to where like I would be so pent up and like actually scared, right? Scared. But

Speaker 2 the fear was more of the uncertainty, like not knowing what was going to happen. But the kind of guy I've always been, and once I know something is going to happen, there's a wave of calm.

Speaker 2 Like when I first started moderating panels and speaking publicly and doing all of that stuff, going up to the stage on the way over, fear, fear, fear, get out there on the stage, see the crowd, everything's okay.

Speaker 2 So once I know that we are fighting, I'm good.

Speaker 2 And that taking of your shirt off,

Speaker 2 you want to fight. Or you're trying to tell everybody else that you want to fight and I'm not about to do it.
And so now you're trying to make me look like a hoe.

Speaker 2 If I see you taking your shirt off, I'm going to hit you while you're taking the shirt shirt off. Straight up.

Speaker 2 I'm running to you while you're taking the shirt off. I don't give a fuck.
Fuck that shit. That place is dangerous, man.
You got to get a couple of dubs on whatever. How did we get on this?

Speaker 2 But, but, so, so, what, what I'm saying is that, like,

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 it in that situation where, where that, they're they're really

Speaker 2 they're releasing emotion that is so pent up over such

Speaker 2 an intensely

Speaker 2 painful moment in both of their lives that they could have possibly bonded over. I mean, even it broke my heart when Richie was just like, when Richie was describing

Speaker 2 his thought of how Carmy's life was going, because he tells that story about him and Mikey going on the road trip. It was the best day, like it was the best day.

Speaker 2 We were just driving down, listening to music, whatever. And he's like, I was like, this must be

Speaker 2 how Carmy is living every day. And Carmy looks at him.
He's just like, I was going through fucking hell. What are you? And I'm like, to bring it back,

Speaker 2 I think that that's what's funny about the Berrizatos is I could see all the Berrizatos being like, oh shit, Carmy's so talented. He got out.
He's living the best version of his life.

Speaker 2 And Carmy is just like, my family pushed me away. The only thing I want to do is be back in Chicago.
Cause that's some real shit too. When the most talented person in your family leaves the hometown.

Speaker 2 I've seen it happen both ways where everybody's just like, yo, I know he's doing good. I know he's killing it.
And then somebody else is like, Fuck, I'm not near my people. I don't know anyone.

Speaker 2 I'm scared. I'm scrapping.
And like, when you come back home, people want you to have this feeling of just like, tell us everything that happened. Tell us how good your life is.

Speaker 2 And you're almost like, shit, I can't really share with them that I'm like not okay. I'm struggling.
And then to add on to that fact, the person I love the most in the world died and I wasn't here.

Speaker 2 It's true. I mean, this season, if I was

Speaker 2 kind of

Speaker 2 reducing it down, it's kind of everybody growing into their roles.

Speaker 2 Richie kind of growing into the role of

Speaker 2 being the rock of that portion of the restaurant. Sid growing into her role as the

Speaker 2 head chef of the bear, the person that makes things better there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because there's a difference between the talent and the person that makes things better.

Speaker 2 In a lot of bands that you guys listen to, there's one person that is the most talented person.

Speaker 2 And then there are other people in that band that are keeping that band together.

Speaker 2 So I mean, and everything in sports, it's just like there's the most talented person, and then there's the person where you're just like, you hear about the locker room. Yeah, I hear about like.

Speaker 2 That person has to be talented too. Don't get me wrong.
Right.

Speaker 2 But there's normally somebody that's keeping that shit. on schedule because

Speaker 2 man if you've been around a lot of talent in your life and i'm everybody listening to this, I'm sure has, there is nothing,

Speaker 2 nothing more frustrated than a highly talented person.

Speaker 2 I'll just say this: for all the people who be making fun of rappers' weed carriers, what you'll actually realize is a lot of time the weed carrier is the one person in the world when that talented person is going off the fucking deep end that can talk to them that can talk to them and be like, yo, like the manager, everybody's like, I'm not talking to anyone, like, hey, young man, right?

Speaker 2 Like, can we?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 and then sugar as the

Speaker 2 caretaker of the family. Yeah.
Sugar as something that the Brazados don't seem to have had in a long time, which is somebody who cares about everybody else enough to

Speaker 2 emotionally sacrifice for them. Didn't seem like their dad was capable of it.
Their mother certainly hasn't been capable of it, even though you see her trying to do it.

Speaker 2 But Sugar seems like the person that is cool enough to make room for everyone to talk to her and to care about that. That's why it was so funny when she was going off about Franny Fack because

Speaker 2 everyone wants Sugar's love so much. And Fack is back there, like, am I still your special little boy? She's like, No, you have devastated me.

Speaker 2 But Carmy's actually doing the thing that his mom couldn't, where it's like, you could read, you could read this as

Speaker 2 he knows he's the toxic component in this, but he's trying to remove himself before he makes things worse. He's, and Carmy's thing of all of that stuff is just trying to be a person.

Speaker 2 He's just trying to be a guy, a dude, and giving himself space to love, giving himself space to be vulnerable, to like stop, to stop

Speaker 2 throwing his vulnerabilities into rest, into recipes. He says in the episode, he goes, there's nothing for me to pull from, to draw on.

Speaker 2 The thing that was there to pull from and draw on, the reason why he could take that unbelievable brow beating that he took from

Speaker 2 Joe Mikkel's character, the chef. The reason why that was all there is because

Speaker 2 it was pure escapism.

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 either that

Speaker 2 or going back to a place that he couldn't go back to because it was too hard. So, I mean, what do they say about music?

Speaker 2 It's you got your whole life to make your debut album, and then artists get to the second, third, and they don't have that thing to draw on anymore.

Speaker 2 It's like, oh, I had a lifetime of trauma, and now it's just kind of like,

Speaker 2 what's the third, fourth album when you're trying to get over that shit? That's why I think that musicians,

Speaker 2 basically rappers, they should try a new religion every three years.

Speaker 2 I've always thought this.

Speaker 2 If you're a musician, you should do a new religion every three years.

Speaker 2 No. Yeah, you should.
Because I'll tell you why. Back in the day, it used to be different.
Like, you know, Led Zeppelin would write a song about fucking Lord of the Rings or some shit like that.

Speaker 2 Find a fire as a Mordor. And we're coming for you.
You know what I'm saying? Like,

Speaker 2 that would, you know, but

Speaker 2 these rappers, I want to hear, I want to hear the Christian. I want to hear that the, you know, Muslim.
I want to hear the Muslim. I want to hear these Talmud raps.
I want to hear these Hindu raps.

Speaker 2 Nah, I want to hear. I don't want no black Israelite raps.
Bro, I want to hear all of it, bro. I want to hear the new shit that you done learned.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 I want to hear different shit. I want you to fuck with a cult a little bit.
Kanye joined that cult. He actually started his own cult, and then he made an album around it.

Speaker 2 And that album was kind of all right. Jesus is King? Nah, that one was not.
But that was a cult album. That was a cult album.
That was all right.

Speaker 2 But Donda, you know, while we're talking about where I'm, we might as well talk about what a great fucking artist Hitler was at this point.

Speaker 2 But, but, but what I'm saying is, I think sometimes you got to switch it up. And maybe Carmy now will, now that he's a normal guy,

Speaker 2 maybe he'll do normal guy plates. Maybe he'll go work at the bear lunch counter.
Oh,

Speaker 2 honestly,

Speaker 2 Carmy, I agree with you, a little spoiled. Maybe he needs to be next to Ibra, sling some sandwiches, get his fucking mind right.
Or maybe he'll be a fucking bum on Claire Bear's couch.

Speaker 2 And last thing I'll ask you:

Speaker 2 will the people in Carmy's world accept him not cooking?

Speaker 2 I don't think so because if I know anything about just life and what makes good tension and good storytelling, there is nothing that the people in people in your life hate most or more

Speaker 2 than you being in that in-between zone. They don't like it when you're good at something and you don't do it.

Speaker 2 Your family

Speaker 2 don't like it when you're really good at something

Speaker 2 and you don't do it. They do not like that.

Speaker 2 Because it is their conception of you, the conception, even that not just the world, but Carmy's family has of him is we understand you when you are in the kitchen cooking.

Speaker 2 That is you at your best self. Even when you're freaking out, whatever, to your point, people love talent and they can say

Speaker 2 through all the drug abuse and addiction that this family has gone through and all the trauma and everything,

Speaker 2 it was worth it. We see it on on the plate.
It was worth it. And I'm wondering when there's no longer that plate, how do, do people keep,

Speaker 2 do people give Carmy the benefit of the doubt when his talent is not the thing that he's selling them? I wouldn't. We shall see.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 when he's not cooking, he's nothing but

Speaker 2 chain smoking.

Speaker 2 Moody, emo.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like they,

Speaker 2 the best thing about him is that like he can do all of this stuff and make a great plate. Now you're going to have to go out here and be a person.
Good luck, Carmy.

Speaker 2 That first time, you know, your uncle, he'd be pulling in them checks and he retires.

Speaker 2 He's around the house too much. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're going to be in Claire's apartment. She like, nigga, get a job, bro.
Claire, Claire about to be a doctor. Telling you.

Speaker 2 No, she just finished her residency or whatever. Yo, guys, that has been our coverage of the Bear season four.
Thank you so much for spurring us, listening to us. Thank you to Van.

Speaker 2 Thank you to our boy

Speaker 2 behind the keys, the board, CT. Thank you to Kai for all of his work this season, editing.
Kai is our man. And thank you so much to the czar of Prestige TV, Justin Sales.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we'll be back very soon. We're going to take CT out to get in the fight.
CT, your goal for this summer is to get in a fight. We're going to get, I'm going to bring somebody.

Speaker 2 All the white boys at the ringer. My goal is we're going to get them into some fights.
All of them. I want all of y'all to fight.

Speaker 2 Actually, Steve, we could do a white boy ringers fight club and we could preside over it.

Speaker 2 Rob Mahoney, Steve. Rob Mahoney taking everybody, I think.
I think Rob Mahoney. Rob Mahoney got perfect posture, reach, the whole thing.
Ryan Rascillo ain't in this.

Speaker 2 Ryan, if Ryan, Ryan can't be in it because if Ryan got in it, Ryan probably gonna wreck everybody. Ryan would be flossing with the Ryan diesel, bro.

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