‘Hacks’ Season 4 Finale: Fashion Emergencies, Bad Karaoke, and a TMZ Hoax

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Hello, and welcome to the Prestige TV podcast.

I'm Mallory Rubin.

Joining me today,

I took her phone, deleted her posts,

got some Taco Bell in her system, cheesy bean burrito, and now she's back home sleeping like she's dead.

It's Nora Princiotti, our dance mom.

Mallory, I do want you to know that I am renting this place from Adam Levine, and we have been texting.

Let me know if you're prepared to toss any huffing instruments during the pod and suddenly shout, Steve Nash.

Now I'm on guard.

Now I'm on guard.

I don't know if I can get fired for saying this, but I promise that I won't ask you to boof it at any point during this podcast recording.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for stating that.

I don't think it's the last time that boofing it will come up today.

However, it's obviously a core part of the Hacks canon in the second half of season four.

And that's what we're here to discuss today.

We are reconvening after our recent Hacks mid-season check-in to chat about the last four episodes of season four of Hacks, including the recent season four finale, which just aired.

Before we ask the flight attendant what pairs well with Xanax, and she very kindly says,

Um, water?

Thanks, Doc.

Thanks, Doc.

Here's what else has been cooking recently on the Prestige TV podcast.

There's a ton of great stuff waiting for people to catch up on.

The rehearsal.

Your friends and neighbors.

The studio starring

our fellow Ringer podcaster, Matt Felony of the Town, which, by the way, also got to mention on this run of hacks.

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So the Prestige TV feed and the Ringer TV YouTube channel are loaded with great pods on awesome recent TV runs.

Check it all out if you haven't.

And of course, subscribe on Spotify and subscribe to the Ringer TV channel on YouTube because you can watch.

You can watch video episodes of the Prestige TV podcast.

What a throw.

What a joy.

It's so cool to be able to see our faces.

Nora, any of your many podcasts that you'd like to tease here before we go.

Oh my gosh.

I mean, every single album in the middle of just an electric Miley Cyrus run.

People can catch up on that.

By the time this is out,

Miley's album, Something Beautiful, will be in the universe.

And so I just think that that's the essential

syllabus for all things Miley.

I quite agree.

I also have to plug we're obsessed.

I mean, Jodi Walker, if you want to listen to Jodi talk about the rehearsal, that's fabulous.

But if you want to listen to Jodi with me talk about bisexual jorts,

Bill Belichick and his girlfriend, and just like a lot of things that are going on in the universe, I couldn't recommend it enough, even though, you know, if I do say so myself, you have airline safety regulations on one feed and jorts on the other.

And that is the ringer, frankly, in miniature.

Absolutely.

What a time.

Nora, I don't believe in heaven, but I do believe in hell and I do believe in podcasting with you.

So let's get to it.

Let's do it.

We are going to follow like a similar approach to what we did in our mid-season check-in.

We're going to talk a little bit at the top about the finale and the season as a whole now that it is concluded.

And then we're going to hit some superlatives.

The episodes that are in the mix today, more prominently, you can talk about anything from the season if you'd like.

Episodes four,

season four, episode seven, season four, episode eight, season four, episode nine, and season four, episode ten.

Including season four, episode seven, de christening.

Dechristening.

I know which of.

Which is a fabulous title.

Which of the weakest slippery slope in heaven were sort of letdowns letdowns on the title front after de christening starring DJ?

Just a sensational bit of titling.

A nice run there with Mrs.

Table right into de Christening.

Great stuff.

Nora,

give us your opening thoughts.

What did you think about the season four finale?

I was sort of surprised by it.

It went in, I thought I knew where it was going after we reach in episode nine, kind of this climactic moment of after in the first half of the season, we've heard Ava say,

you know, is Deborah ever really going to sacrifice for me?

Is she ever really going to do anything but take advantage of me?

And

Deborah does, and it's really beautiful.

And it's this moment of these two characters that we love

really fully finishing their reconciliation.

It was just like absolutely heartwarming and wonderful.

And I loved watching it.

And then the last episode, which is dealing with Deborah sort sort of coming to terms with the fact that she has this non-compete and that she's off late night and figuring out what she wants to do with that time, I thought went into some places that I was not expecting it to and ended up being a bit of a strange finale to the season.

That said, hack season four as a whole, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

It was maybe a little scattered, but I think the same thing that we talked about on the mid-season pod on a lion-to-lion scene-to-scene basis,

nothing is funnier than the show.

And I love it very much.

Yeah, I feel very similarly about the finale and the season overall.

I'll tip my pick for one of our categories.

We'll talk about it more when we get there, but our first category in a few minutes is favorite episode.

And I thought episode nine was like genuinely great.

Like not only clearly the best episode of this run for me, but one of the best hacks episodes.

I think the emotional wallop and catharsis that we got for the reasons you're describing, and just in general, the way the end of this season, you know, we talked a lot in our mid-season pod about, like, you're like, you're noting the

pairing of comedy and emotion on that beach scene.

But the thing that Ava was articulating, like, you're always going to let me down, really pulling on something for us as viewers, because that's also our fear when we go to hacks every episode is that like, no matter how hard they try, they're going to fail each other.

And boy, is that a sad thing to have to confront about

the relationships that mean the most to you in in your life, something to just noodle on.

But to see that not happen and the way inside of episode nine that they

very expertly and deftly fucked with

our certainty, our ingrained expectations as viewers that that is what would happen and all the moments that were intended to poke at and heighten our suspicion and our dread.

Just fantastic.

And I was like moved to tears by that episode.

And then the finale, I was like, wait, what?

Is that, why are we doing this?

Why didn't the season just end in the penultimate episode?

And some of, some of why the finale couldn't live up to the penultimate was just all of that, right?

This will not be the last, first or last time we do a hacks pod where basically 80% of the conversation is about Kayla and Jimmy instead of Deborah and Ayma.

And they were sorely lacking in the finale.

They just were not, we got like a second of them in the finale.

And that is just, frankly, not acceptable to me in a hacks episode.

I mean, I think people who are listening to this have seen it, so this is not a, I'm not anticipating this.

This is a spoiler of warning.

Say it out loud.

Why did we go to Singapore?

It's, you know, listen.

Deborah will find the loophole.

If there's a loophole in the contract, she will find it, and it will impact not only Ava's vacation plans, but also our television consumption.

I thought what they were going to do,

and I still have a little weird kernel of hope, and we can talk about where things might go in season five, but that this might be part of it.

I thought that Deborah was going to write for Ava.

I thought that this was going to turn into, oh, Deborah can't perform for 18 months, but she can write.

And maybe Ava is going to start getting some time on stage.

And there's going to be this role reversal.

And it's going to be really creatively fulfilling for both of them.

And I was like.

I had decided that's where it was going within five minutes of the episode beginning.

And I was so geared up for it.

And then they get off the plane.

That's funny.

It's like, you've been asleep for 18 hours and we are in a completely different part of the world.

That was very amusing.

Well, you just, that had never occurred to me as a possibility.

I wonder if you have a purer heart than I do.

It has literally never occurred to me that Deborah would try to do something for Ava.

Even though she just had done something for her that was a moment ago.

She just did something massive for her.

I do think that I have a little bit of a push-pull with,

and this is something that the showrunners, Jen Statsky and Paul W.

Downs, I've heard them talk about, that they write it, they write this core relationship to Hacks as a romance.

Yeah.

And

I think it was a really interesting idea.

And it does come through in terms of how deeply you want it to work between the two of them and how emotionally invested I am in this show for something that is ostensibly like, you know, it has a relationship to the format of a situation comedy, which is sort of light and fluffy, but hacks run so much deeper.

And I do think that it is a credit to how they write this relationship.

That said,

sometimes I find myself craving for the Deborah and Ava storyline to be written as like a buddy comedy instead, where it's not about will these people ever stop failing each other?

It is about, can these people who have very different ways of seeing the world work together to tackle a shared problem.

This is a really interesting point because

I think

rationally, logically, conceptually, I agree with you completely.

But

in practice, the episodes that we've gotten that function like that, I never find as satisfying.

Like,

do you remember the episode in season three where they got lost on the hike?

Which I think was very much in the mold of what you're describing.

That was real buddy comedy energy.

And I was just like, what is that?

What is happening?

And I hear a lot of people liked that episode a lot, but for me, it was like missing something that felt core about the DNA of their relationship and the dynamic between them.

But I think what you're citing feels crucial when we assess this larger question of what is the

What is the overall like lifespan of hacks?

Hacks has been renewed for season five.

Great.

We're thrilled.

We'd love to keep watching hacks.

This is great.

But this question of,

you know, we were going to hit this at the very end to wrap today, but I think actually we should just do it right here before we then look back a little bit more on the back half of season four.

How top of mind is that for you when you're thinking about the future of hacks?

Is the way that the relationship needs to evolve?

Because like we talked about this a little bit in our mid-season pod, you sort of like want to keep luxuriating inside of the thing that you love about a character set that you enjoy spending time with, but there is that tug of like, how many times can we run back the same thing?

i think this is clearly i will say also

beyond just deborah and ava as a duo on the show's mind because one of the things that was really interesting to me about where the season ultimately went in episodes nine and ten is like it felt like we were building for years to late night years because we were we were building for years to late night yeah and then we did it for a few episodes and now we're done and that was kind of shocking to me not in a bad way though in a way that i admire where it's like maybe i could see a little bit of whiplash-inducing

response for some audience members who are like, wait, I sort of thought this was the Grail.

And I understand that part of the thematic text is the character saying, maybe that's not what my Grail actually is, right?

Well, maybe I need to like assess what matters to me and why, and how that has changed and altered based on the people I've spent time with who have enriched my life, which is like a really cool thing to have gotten to witness Deborah, one of the most selfish and self-motivated people when we started our experience with her, come to terms with and actually decide to actively embrace, right?

And then immediately have to like stew in the inevitable resentment of what that really means in practice.

But the like we're moving toward late night and now we're back to Vegas and then we're on a plane and now we're on Singapore.

We're going to go back and like, what does it mean to work on the I, the even the discussion about the special, like, I don't want to spend 18 months working on a special again and look in the mirror.

I need the crowd.

Obviously, some of that was born out of the urine and non-compete and like big Bob is ready to sue you.

I will say this about the finale.

Incredible opening scene with the rando strip mall lawyer who was like, don't let my cat get out.

The cat was amazing.

Let me know if you need to sue anyone if they leave an instrument in your body during surgery.

Even a sponge.

Even a sponge.

That was.

And then she leaves and he goes, where is the cat?

Where is the cat?

I'm worried about the cat.

And I know, I mean, I know, Mallory, that's a, that's a thought that

goes through your head.

Top of mind.

But you have to do it.

Many times.

Whether it's the late night is not actually the thing anymore.

And we're going to either like run it back with a different form of comedy that we've already dabbled in or pursue something new, or whether it's the nature of their relationship.

Like now that we're through the fourth season, where are you with this larger, almost existential question for hacks?

How much of it in the future do you want to like feel familiar?

And how much of it do you want to feel like radically distinct from the thing you've loved about the show to this point?

I think I

return to something that

I don't think feels like it was a huge part of this season, but is ultimately familiar to me within the hacks universe, which is I do want to see Deborah and Ava at work together.

Yeah.

Because

I

certainly take your point that some of the episodes that do function in that buddy comedy kind of vibe have been a little bit strange.

I think sometimes that's because those have been the ones where they just sort of choose to take the gang on location, whether it's the woods or Vegas or whatever.

And those are

true.

They can be magical in moments, but I don't totally always understand the impulse.

But I do think that

one of my favorite modes for this show, if not my favorite, is when Deborah and Ava are together,

but that there is a crackle and a tension in the relationship because

there is kind of a third person.

They are in a little bit of a thruple, right?

To return to a theme.

And the third person is comedy.

They both love comedy.

they come at it in different ways in combination that makes magic but i want to see them doing it so

part of the slightly strange note of the finale to me was that we've just had this this culmination of

the interpersonal relationship and i'm geared up to see them

make love to each other in the way that they do between the two of them, which is to make comedy together.

And then because of so much of 10, is

Deborah is not emotionally in a place to be writing new material and working on new material.

Not emotionally in a place to be like Deborah fell asleep on stage.

Deborah fell asleep on straight chair

for 20 minutes.

The honk shoes were coming for her as they come for us all.

As they come for us all.

And so I would like to see them working together.

Nobody wants to work anymore.

Kim Kardashian said it.

I say it now.

And so I want to see them

spending more time

riffing and writing jokes together.

Cause I just, it's my favorite thing to watch on a screen that is showing hacks.

You know, this makes me think of one of the

kind of classic hacks.

You're laughing,

you're uncomfortable in a totally intended way, and then suddenly you're like deeply moved by the thing you just witnessed.

And the end of episode seven, where Deborah is, is really grappling with and wrestling with this.

On the one hand, I was very proud of DJ for standing up to her mother the way that she did.

I thought that was cool to see, but she really said something deeply hurtful to Deborah when she basically said, you don't believe in anything.

And I thought that watching Ava and Deborah in the car.

Back to the Americana, that was just

the role of the Americana again in these set of episodes, just wonderful stuff for us

for the folks who live actually out here in LA.

and this gets to like what you were just saying about the third person in the relationship and the third person in the throttle because what ava was basically saying to deborah and then what led deborah to go to the comedy club to file you know was like you do actually believe in something you do have a religion it's comedy like this is you the thing that orients your life isn't catholicism it's deaf they the mark wallberg sends me a rosary every year not as a gift as a threat was quietly one of the best moments

i loved it so much that was i'm really glad you have that as one of your picks because that was just sensational And somehow a callback to the George Clooney does break because he's a sick man.

Oh, God.

It's so good.

I love that.

This does bring me to the last thing I wanted to hit about the finale, though, before we move on to our superlatives.

You're getting it on the record here.

You want them to be working.

And you're not alone because despite Deborah falling asleep on stage and insisting that after four drinks on the yacht party, she's sober.

Deborah wants to work.

And I would like to ask you, I think it's important that we discuss this

for your reflections on Deborah's stance on vacation because this wounded me deeply.

We've seen a lot of painful things on hacks, but nothing quite like this.

You know, I don't do vacations, Deborah said.

I can't stand sitting around all day doing nothing.

I just keep wishing I was working.

And I would like to say it couldn't be me.

Actually, I'm not capable of understanding this.

People who love work, yes, I love work.

I spend a lot of time working.

You know what I love?

A lot.

Vacation.

Vacation.

Absolutely.

Vacation.

I like to consider myself the Dua Lipa of the ringer, or at least I like to say that I aspire to such.

And therefore, I was, I, yeah, no, Deborah's, Deborah's stance is not justifiable.

And I also, I know that we were getting a portrait of her in the finale of a woman who is really going through some dark things.

Yes.

But I do feel

that she enjoyed herself a little bit bit when she was just relaxing.

She was getting that massage and she was putting cucumber slices over her eyes and she was saying, you know, Ava, I don't want to talk about work.

And yes, it is because I'm feeling wounded and I don't want to go through those emotions, but also it's because I'm getting a massage.

Yeah.

The stretch in Vegas before we got to Singapore, because in Singapore, she has the balance, at least, that like jolt of electricity of I'm back on stage, I found my loophole.

I'm not violating my contract if the translator is actually the one doing the show, Deborah.

But that great montage we got while we were still back in Vegas and Deborah was like really going through it, lamenting this quiet period.

And this led not only to a moment where

Sabina had to put her hand over Deborah's mouth to see if she was breathing and ask why she wound up in bed with only one shoe on, but the single most distressing and disturbing thing that I have seen yet on hacks, which was Deborah getting Diet Coke and a little bottle of booze and then opening it and putting the bottle and the cap of the open bottle down on the top of a public Las Vegas trash can,

pouring the booze and shaking it up and then going about her day.

This is just not okay and it's not, it's just not acceptable.

So let's embrace vacation rather than putting our beverage vessels on Vegas trash cans.

It's just my note to Deborah if she's willing to take it.

And it seems like this season was about her being willing to take some notes.

In our Miley Cyrus series on Every Single Album, one thing that Nathan and I recently discussed is that Miley last year had to go to the ICU because she filmed a music video for a song called Walk of Fame and she rolled around on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

And

it's a no, it's a no, really badly infected her knee.

And I still think that I would rather do that than drink out of a bottle that has had secondary contact with the top of a Las Vegas trash can.

It was really harrowing stuff.

I also, you did mention that the

Josephina asking her why she only has one shoe on.

The response, I was taking a break.

Taking a break was

very good.

I like to think that I'm generally in a mentally healthier place than our girl Deb was during this scene.

I've taken a break between shoes before.

Sure.

Yeah.

Who hasn't?

Who hasn't?

We're all human.

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Nora, let's get to our superlatives.

Let's do it.

We've already seized it.

The first category today is favorite episode.

I've already told you that mine is episode nine, a Slippery Slope.

Is that yours as well?

Yeah, I mean,

it is not only sort of the culmination of what has been going on through a lot of this season.

I do think on some level, the payoff of Deborah saying, you know, there is no show without you.

You are the show.

It wouldn't have happened without my head writer, Ava Daniels, and doing it at such immense personal cost is a moment that this entire series has built to.

Yes.

And I thought they nailed it.

I really agree.

I think this is like the most important thing for them to execute in a way that felt like really earned and really believable for us and the characters alike.

And the

great thing was like, if

Deborah hadn't done this, if when she sends Ava down to the red carpet at the Oscars,

she's just really good.

Running into Winnie again, like we're the mounting tension.

Deborah has gone to meet with Bob.

He has insisted that Ava be fired, plants that little seed of doubt, not only in our minds, but in Deborah's mind.

You sure you can trust her?

Then we see Deborah go to meet with Jimmy and he's like, I've got to talk to you about something.

You know, there's the Deborah Jimmy moment of like, I don't think you had a choice.

I know what I have to do, but I don't want to.

We were so primed for the letdown, right?

Yeah.

Winnie on the red carpet being like, by the way, tell Deborah, fuck you.

And she got me fired.

And like all of the things, all of the convergence and confluence of all of these reasons for us to just assume that Deborah would do this thing again.

If she had,

Ava would have

correctly and I think quite righteously said,

Of course you did this to me.

I knew you were going to do this to me.

I told you you were going to do this to me.

And I ultimately like put myself in a position for you to do this to me.

So, the fact that when Deborah actually chose Ava over the show, did the opening monologue and the post-Oscars live show, and quit the show, very, I mean, Gene Smart, icon legend, always, but like watching Deborah

well up

and be moved to that point of emotion, talking about like how this was her dream.

And then to see Ava, great season-long bit about the security gate

hanging off there

with Ava having to watch from that perch.

But Ava, what was her response?

She was like, No, don't do this for me, you know?

And that was so great.

Like, that was so, I know, it was like amazing.

That was really, and then to run in and find her and like, why did you do this?

Are you sure?

When Deborah said on air, I've been asked to fire someone I love who did nothing wrong.

Like, it was just beautiful.

I agree with you completely.

Everything is built to this.

We also just had

you're a musical expert and I am not.

You've invoked some musicians already today.

And this will be my,

the only attempt I'm capable of making on this front.

When Jimmy,

when Bob goes into the back and says, cut the feed, cut the feed.

And Jimmy is wrestling him for the phone.

Very reminiscent to me of the sequence in A Complete Undome.

When Bob Nurith is trying to stop Pete Seeger from

going for the chords.

Yeah, that was

that's why they pay you the big bucks now.

It's for these comparisons.

I guess I'm saying Deborah Vance is comedy's Bob Dylan and I challenge anyone to argue.

I think that's right.

This was great.

This was great.

And like also just the kind of like, there have been so many moments up to this where some sort of matter of integrity or soul or substance has like honestly really led Deborah to be like, fuck off to Ava.

You know, that's been one of the really rich renewing resources of the show is the generation gap and the way that they genuinely do just see the world in a a distinct way and like think about things differently.

And so, all of the Ethan Summer stuff and the way that that built toward Ava doing this thing because she believed it, but also with no foresight and like not thinking about the consequences at all.

And then, still, like, I loved the moment where Ava went then to find Lewis,

on the contrary, guy, he's shooting hoops and asked him to stop.

And she's just like,

Yeah, I said, like, integrity mattered, but not, that was when it didn't affect me.

it was just such a demon thing to do it was great but then also the little aside at the end when she's going away and she's like it's so annoying that when you do one show a week you have to play basketball basketball it's like i haven't been to the grocery store in three months

that was great i really enjoyed that uh there was also just

I is going to talk about Jimmy and Kayla a lot

later, but there was just inside of, they'll come up in other categories, but inside of this episode, there were some of the most remarkable Jimmy and Kayla stuff we've ever gotten.

Have to shout out, this is where in episode nine, we got the latest

peak TV streaming Wars era mention of Ringer podcast, The Tam.

When Ava asked what Plubo was, Jimmy said, yeah, Pluto and Fubo merged.

You got to keep up on this stuff.

I told you to listen to The Town.

Wonderful stuff.

Again, catch up on the prestige TV podcast coverage of the studio if you haven't yet.

What a huge spring.

What a huge spring for Matt Bellany.

It's really really unbelievable.

Unbelievable stuff.

Thriving.

All right, I'm going to ask you to pick your favorite of some of the Kayla and Jimmy stuff that happened in episode nine.

Here are your choices.

Okay.

Jimmy at a

serious planning meeting, noting that Sally Field

is not only interested in participating in celebrity strip poker, but has demanded to be topless.

Looking good and feeling great.

The Kayla Jimmy search for dance mom, which is just, I say, I believe might be coming up in two of my four picks picks for subsequent categories.

Gator tails.

What is a Gator Tale?

Go-to-born party.

Jimmy.

Possibly my favorite moment of the entire season.

Just incredible stuff.

This is also the Bufett sequence.

And then the once again, incredibly emotionally moving, touching sequence where Jimmy picks, Okayla picks Jimmy over her dad because she,

sweet Randy, reveals the name, the cementing of the plaque that it is just Schaefer and Lusak because Jimmy ordered the sign without telling Kayla and knew it would mean a lot to her.

So wonderful.

And then seeing Kayla charge in to defend Jimmy to Deborah and Ava, including the line, you would never boof anything for anyone.

Selfish.

When Kayla just calls Deborah earrings.

Earrings was

simply remarkable.

I thought that Avo's reaction to Kayla saying, if this is how independent, strong women treat a nice guy, feminism has gone too far, was also a real highlight.

But

Kayla finding Jimmy beaten to a pulp after getting tossed out of the building, apologizing to him for calling him a little bitch, for almost for considering going to light tutor.

And he's like, you don't need to apologize for things that I don't know about and you weren't going to do.

This is great.

Great.

Great.

Can you possibly pick a favorite of those remarkable Jimmy Calem moments

episode of television?

I will

because podcasting, we're professionals here.

I do have to say that they are all, they're all perfect.

It's like picking, you know, I don't have children, but I imagine this is what it feels like to be asked to pick a favorite child.

There was something about the moment when they find Dance Mom on Wisteria Lane.

And she thinks she's at Carrie Bradshaw's Brownstone.

Yeah.

It's famously New York.

Famously New York.

It's great.

That I loved so much.

I really, you know, I was skeptical if Dance Mom

was going to go down as an addition and a subplotline that I thought worked.

By the end, they really made Dance Mom happen.

I completely agree.

This is my.

runner up for another category we have, which is favorite plot line of the season, of this, this chunk of the season.

And I was frankly astonished by that because when Dance Mom entered our hacks universe, I frankly was like, What the fuck is happening?

What's going on?

Yeah.

And I also frankly don't really believe that those dances would go that viral.

Okay, see, this is interesting.

You're thinking about this as an internet expert, and I'm thinking about this as somebody who really just wants almost every single possible moment to go to Kayla.

But Dance Mom gave us a lot of Kayla, so that was a gift.

Yeah, Dance Mom did give us a lot of Kayla.

And ultimately, I guess I'm glad that it was Dance Mom who occupied the role of the

Schaefer and Lusack client who entered the

Deborah Vance comedic universe

as opposed to

the biting,

the incredibly aggressive Callie.

Put a pin in that.

I'm coming back to that.

Okay.

I am coming back to that.

Just in case Dance Mom doesn't come up again today, let's use this opportunity to share this Kayla Jem from the old Navy revoking its

endorsement deal stretch of episode seven, where Kayla said the stuff she was pinning was nuts on the Pinterest.

Softcore PDSM, hardcore ASMR.

It's remarkable.

Me too.

Remarkable.

Great stuff.

Great stuff.

Don't look up my Pinterest now.

I wouldn't dream dream of it.

That's your space.

Anything else on episode nine before we move to our next category?

I think I'm really glad that we've covered the Bufit sequence

and it just

important.

Okay, our next category today is best scene.

When you got here, well, we have talked about it.

I do think that the most important and the best executed scene of this season

is Deborah after the Oscars at the live show, standing up for Ava and essentially professing her love.

You know, that's, that's,

that is her standing up there with a boom box.

And it was, to me, every bit as iconic.

I love that.

You're such a romantic.

That's beautiful.

I

think mostly because I knew we would have already talked about that scene a lot.

I'm going in a different direction.

I wanted to hit a different character set here

but also you're leaning into romance and possibility and i have lingered in a different emotional and mental space with my pick here and it is

this was just like watching an actual conversation i've had with my mother rendered on screen i will be selecting ava's mom arriving for a visit

Specifically, the first scene in Ava's apartment in the Americana in episode eight, Witch of the Week.

Jane Addams is Nina.

Always a treat whenever we get a stretch in.

There's every season season we get a little bit of Ava and her mom.

It's always great.

Every single thing about this was perfect.

The fact that Ava has no idea where her mom is and can't find her because her mom left her phone on airplane mode, first of all, just

literally.

So deeply relatable.

My mom has done that a hundred times.

So deeply relatable.

Right down to the glimpse of like seeing that she was flying into Burbank.

We're like, this is, I'm like, this is just where my mom flies in.

And then I'm like, I can't find you.

Where are you?

All of this.

As someone who flew in and out of LAX last weekend, deeply jealous.

Burbank is the single best LA life hack.

There's nothing close.

Burbank is a bad thing.

If you can fly into or out of Burbank, you must.

You basically live in the Cheesecake Factory.

Exceptional, iconic.

I loved it.

The moment when Nina opened Ava's fridge and we were treated to this exchange.

Are you eating enough soup?

I'm not eating any soup.

Soup is so beneficial.

Soup, the thing is, is that soup is so beneficial.

This is, I, this,

most of the, most of the moments in this scene, I was deeply rooted, as I often am, watching hacks in an Ava perspective, but this time I was the mom.

I love soup.

I have soup all the time.

And then here it is.

This is where, this is where I was like,

I am watching a scene from my own life.

There's something I want to talk to you about.

Okay, is it quick?

Because I got to go.

It is.

Pause, beat.

I'm worried that you're not going to have children.

Wow, I'd love to hear your version of a long conversation.

You're so focused on this demanding new job of yours.

I worry you're going to get so busy.

You're going to forget.

I'm going to forget to have a kid.

I have had this exact exchange nearly word for word with my mother more times than I can possibly recount.

This was just incredible.

And then the offer to give Ava $10,000 to freeze her eggs, plus covering the cost of storage, and the ensuing discussion about the lawsuit where Dava said, I thought you were being sued, right?

Yes, I was, but I was also a plaintiff.

My upline is longer than my downline.

That's just such a vintage hax line to me from like, who thinks of this?

This is absolutely incredible.

And then the absolute cherry on the Sunday of this is a moment from my my life with my mother, who is wonderful and I love

the guilt trip about Ava having to leave to go to work.

Are you leaving me?

Oh my God, what am I supposed to do all day?

And then Ava responding, I live in a mall go shopping.

You have $22,000.

Apparently, the whole point of me coming here is to spend time with you.

When my mom, who again is wonderful and might be listening to this podcast,

comes to LA.

Hi, Mel's mom.

She sometimes emails Joanna.

Wild.

I'll like mention on a pod that I like, I'm squinting and can't see.

And she'll email Joanna and say, Can you encourage Mal to go to the eye doctor?

Very normal.

Very normal thing that happens.

And then she does.

When my mom comes to LA,

she expects that every single, there is an itinerary where every single moment is accounted for with an activity.

And I'm like,

you have been to LA 60 times in your life.

Go explore.

So this one, this scene just hit hard, very memorable to me.

I thought this was a great one.

That's my pick.

I particularly loved, are you still waiting to meet Leonardo DiCaprio to have a child?

She said, the first part of the line, and you're going,

you're primed to expect the

thing that comes next to be, it's not going to happen.

You need to lower your standards.

And then

as Anna's mom is being kind of a pain in the ass, she still manages to be sort of beautiful and really supportive by then saying i think there's something to that you move in the same

circle move in the same circles and then like 10 minutes later in the episode when she's at the show and sees the guy like the the guy who's a part of the production she's like you have similar hair coloring so are you interested in having children one day

Just unbelievable stuff.

This brings us to our next category.

Favorite plot line.

I have already tipped you that Dance Mom was a stunning contender for me.

Obviously, the actual picks here, no question, are everything with it with Ava and Deborah and the beautiful resolution there.

And that's obviously the most meaningful plot line of the season, or anything that involves Jimmy and Kayla, but we have other categories where I will be getting to that.

And so I went,

I went in a place that I don't think you're going to support.

Oh, wow.

I used favorite plot line not to actually honor one of the most important plot lines, but instead to

spend just a moment on something that

brought me more joy than I I can possibly understand.

And it is rabid lassie.

It is rabid lassie.

First of all, just if it had just been the initial scene, like that episode seven, I mean, we talked last episode about all of this, like, please write down your species, like if you're a dog or a human.

Everything was building toward this with Kayla's entrepreneurial spirit.

If it had just been the scene in episode seven where Jimmy is on set and can't find Kayla and the PA who Kayla has been tormenting

brings Jimmy fancy sunscreen and a coconut and then asks him if it's young enough and says,

Schaefer gets upset when the coconut isn't young enough.

And then Lassie had come over and bitten Jimmy.

That would have been enough.

But that's not all that happened.

This becomes a through line of the second half of the season of hacks.

Jimmy gets bitten.

Kayla shouting, meg, medic, fuck, I cannot believe this is happening again.

Jimmy saying, what do you mean again?

And then Kayla revealing that it's the third person Lassie is bitten.

And then saying, by the way, her owners are anti-vax.

You're going to need a lot of shots, which leads toward a stretch where Jimmy's festering wound

means he has to, when he's having business meetings, say, so sorry about the smell, it's something in the building.

And then Clive on the couch across from him saying, I thought you'd been eating kimchi

before the doctor arrives to administer a rabies shot.

But it all led to the most important thing, which is our shared love,

Randy,

in an episode nine string of updates for Jimmy about all the things that are going wrong, saying,

like, it was the single most important bit of news anybody had ever delivered to anyone on anything.

She bid again.

She bit again.

I just was like in tears.

I was laughing so hard when we built turned the she bid again.

So I just thought this was like inspired and so bizarre, but I loved it.

So that's my pick.

What about you?

Fabulous.

Okay.

I

first of all, I totally support this.

I absolutely support this.

And mine is a little niche as well, although it is not Rabbit Lazzie, who somehow I believe gave Jimmy ring war.

That's correct.

Yeah.

It sure did.

Mayor Joe.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Good pick.

Mayor Joe.

When last we spoke,

I had slightly mixed feelings about the Mayor Joe cameos so far this season because I didn't totally get this is again, sometimes hacks goes on location and I don't quite get why.

The trip to Vegas was not to me one of the high points of the season.

Although within that,

Mayor Joe showing up to

get Deborah out of a ticket was a high point of that.

Yes.

So maybe mixed feelings at the midpoint.

The second

Mayor Joe subplotline,

which is that she has been caught

having sex with multiple hockey players on a Zamboni.

Yes.

And this has created a scandal.

Yeah.

that everybody is talking about.

And Deborah has to figure out her way into because she won't make fun of a friend.

Right.

And then Ava pitches, why don't we have her on the show?

Bringing Mayor Joe, who at first is nervous, but then is an absolutely excellent guest.

And I think does a lot for her reputation to own the joke,

which as Deborah brings up is like the old Nora Efron line where if you slip on a banana peel, but if you tell the story, it's your joke,

which Deborah believes in, even though Nora Efron famously called her a bitch once.

That was such a great line that I feel that's Nora Efron, but I feel like I can steal it because she called me a bitch once.

Incredible.

You could make the argument that I'm really, really making a case for one line, but I do, I just found this whole thing really, really funny and sort of bizarre and out of left field in a way that only hacks can do.

Yeah.

But truly, the reason that I loved this whole little detour

was for one line.

Yeah.

And that was

the Jimmies railed me, my second gangpang of the week.

Just remarkable stuff.

Absolutely remarkable stuff.

That was great.

And I think in many television shows, when there's six pairs of hands, you stop looking for wedding rings, takes the cake, but not hacks.

That was just a warm up.

Not hacks.

Not hacks.

I think I love when they acknowledge the other late night hosts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so that part of it, like already has something that I love, but that just, it's just a great, it's just a great line.

Fantastic pick.

It's just an absolutely fantastic pick.

And it's, I think, a great transition into our next category, which is funniest one-liner.

We were both

just downright incapable of actually picking one thing here last time.

I assume that will be the case today.

So why don't you run me through your three to 25 contenders, however many you have today.

So really, I mean, I actually do have one here.

Oh, wow.

This is, I struggled with this more than last time, actually, to pick, to narrow it down.

What it was.

To be clear,

that doesn't mean that I only wrote down one thing,

but there was.

Just when I was sort of cataloging and going back,

Mark Wahlberg still sends me a rosary every year as a threat.

I felt cosmically pulled to that joke.

It was incredible.

It was genuinely incredible.

We did, we, we talked, I think in the context of the Clooney thing that was sort of similar at mid-season about the way that they are capable of writing these little lines that have a whole world behind them.

And I just, I thought the whole thing about Deborah having beef with the Catholic Church was really, really funny.

But that, that line in particular was my favorite.

Yeah, I agree.

I thought when that started, like the history of the church coming after Deborah, I wasn't sure it was going to totally pan out, but it was

quite entertaining across the entire episode.

I love that.

That's a great pick.

Also, randomly,

I'm not going to say good timing, but sort of strange timing because of the Pope.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

But real rips from the headlines stuff.

And then the other one that just,

the dance mom delivery,

and we've been texting when she reveals that she is paying $25,000 a week

to rent

That scene was so funny.

You know, Buzzball?

Like, white or green?

Guess I'll take green.

Like, if you know, if you have lodged in your brain, as I do,

the way that Adam Levine texts, at least as is public knowledge, as related to women that he might have texted with at one point.

Right.

It adds an extra dimension.

It really adds a layer to that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Here are some of my contenders.

This is like the short list, and maybe I'll pick a favorite at the end.

I'm going to hit some highlights here.

We'll figure it out together.

Episode seven, Seth Rogan doing celebrity strip poker.

My boxer shorts are from Kirkland and my circumcision is from Rabbi Frankman was historic.

That absolutely killed me.

Just tremendous.

That's really good.

The other celebrity strip poker as their little bit, it was really funny to me.

And in the same way as thank you to Nancy Pelosi and Glorilla will always be special to me, just something about the combination of Kaya Gerber and Seth Rogan for celebrity strip poker really worked.

Genius.

Absolutely inspired.

I loved it.

DJ and Ava share the following exchange

when Ava and Deborah are meeting AJ.

And Deborah has gone to steam the bonnet, I believe.

Beautiful baby, hot husband, thriving career.

Women can have it all.

Bitches need to stop complaining.

And then Ava responds with, totally.

Look, as a single childless woman who lives in a mall, I agree.

As a single childless woman who lives in a mall, I agree.

It's just, that was so funny.

I'm not as,

you have done the Lord's work in catching me up on the Americana and its lore.

Yeah.

And I do believe that

that was a sub-character that did amazing work, the Americana itself.

I quite agree.

I quite agree.

I hope that that continues.

Maybe a lot of change awaits in season five, but hopefully not keep using borders.

Yeah.

I always like when we get little insights into the DJ Deborah backstory.

And so Deborah saying, no, thy enemy, that's from the Bible.

And DJ responding, no, that's from the art of war, which I know because you made it, made me read it when I was in fourth grade.

Very strong.

Very strong indeed.

You already, I had the Mayor Joe lines that

you already hit.

Let's see

what else is in the mix here.

You know what I liked in episode eight when Kayla and Jimmy were

after Clive

reveals that he's cancer-free and thus will be leaving their firm to go

to Kayla's dad at Latitude.

And Jimmy is catching Kayla up on this.

And she shouts, we saved his life.

And Jimmy says that was the oncology department at Cedars.

Just sensational.

Wonderful stuff.

We already talked about it.

Time is always like tied to reality in a way.

He's anchored and rooted in a way that is

necessary in the show.

We already talked about what I think is actually my pick for this category, which is Gator Tails.

What is a Gator Tail?

Go to One Party, Jimmy.

Like Go to One Party, Jimmy.

Just absolutely could not have loved it more.

Wonderful stuff.

I enjoyed Ava saying in episode nine on the Ethan Summers censorship front: Let me know if there's any other sex criminals' reputations you need me to help launder.

Fantastic stuff.

This was one where I wish they hadn't tipped it in the next week on, in the preview for the finale that we got in the end of episode nine.

But I thought that was Sophina greeting Ava at the door and the do I look like a fun, flirty vacation girl leading to you look like Ace Ventura, pet detective.

Both are sexually viable.

Sexually viable.

Really good.

And we already talked about Ava loading up on

her pharmaceuticals ahead of the flight to not Hawaii after

was worth it for this line alone.

When she offers Deborah some pills, Deborah passes and Ava says, smart.

Benzo use is highly correlated into dementia, but that's a bad problem.

That's a barrel problem.

Oh, and then we have to shout this out because

you were very focused on Ava's shorts in our mid-season pod.

And so I felt, I was thinking of you most of all when we got a call back when Deborah, or a continued acknowledgement, really when Deborah said what do you do while we're here this was in their fight like their mini breakup in the finale what do you do while you're here except follow me around with your empty little notebook in your big shorts

something that has been a talking point recently on we're obsessed is um the concept of bisexual jorts yeah which was in a uh page six headline i believe and so that was really really top of mind to me in that line.

And the spirit of that line had a lot of relevance to me.

So I think that's a wonderful choice.

The other one that

I'm now thinking of that I think we would be remiss not to mention comes from our dear Randy, who is off the phone with Jimmy on a bus.

Yeah.

And says,

I'm on the bus.

I like to mentally map out a city.

It's great.

Randy's the best.

Randy's just really special.

Randy's a really special edition.

I mean, like, this season had so,

there was so much that happened.

Yeah.

And

at times, I felt like if maybe a few of those things had been pared down, but I do think that there's a real beauty to like, when they are just throwing all of this stuff up against the wall, quite a bit of it really sticks.

Yeah.

And if it's that ethos that brought us Randy on the bus, then that's really special to me.

And

I can't fault it for a second.

I quite agree.

I'm just sitting here still waiting for the Schaefer and Lissack spin-offs.

That brings us to our final category of the day, which is once again, Favorite Duo.

And I have once again picked Jimmy and Kayla, have you?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is, we can rename the category.

If we're back to pod about hacks in season five, let's just assume that Favorite Duo is just an opportunity and an excuse, not that we need one to talk about Jimmy and Kayla.

We've hit a lot of the highlights already.

What that we have not gotten to do you want to shine a spotlight on here?

I mean, I first want to just second, uh,

if Schaefer and Lusak does not become its own spin-off, that's going to be our spin.

We're just going to do Schaefer and Lusak corner.

We're going to check in on what's going on with

the squad.

Um, I, I, I loved this season.

You mentioned, I'm so glad that it's been renewed for season five and that we will get more hacks.

I,

you said that there had been some, you know, stuff percolating about is there going to be more hacks?

What's the future of hacks?

And it has always landed strangely with me because I think that this is a special show.

There's nothing like hacks other than hacks.

And

while I think that they

do

have this,

I don't know if I want to say it's a problem, but a hurdle.

in terms of how do you, if you're choosing to write this core relationship as this, will they, won't they,

really be there for each other?

There is only so

much that you can do.

Otherwise, it's just, it's, it's punching us in the face and then bringing us back to life over and over again with, are they going to be so hurtful to each other?

And then they're going to make up.

Yeah.

But I do,

I do just think that

there is still a lot that they can do if they put them, especially within the context of making comedy together.

Because if we've learned nothing else, I mean, this was just a really pro-thruple season of television.

It wasn't.

Boy, wasn't it?

It really was.

I mean, Mayor Joe, I don't know if I guess six hands.

Yeah, so Mayor Joe, our girl Ava, and I do believe Ava, Deborah, and comedy are the thrupple of season.

Are Jimmy, Kayla, and Randy a thrupple?

Are we officially there?

Have we gotten enough time with Randy to graduate this from a duo to a thrupple?

It's something for us to think about between seasons.

Here, when

episode nine,

walking away from the

burning wreckage of the late night show that they had left behind, it's going to be Schaefer and Lusack for life, Kayla said.

We're going to die together.

To which Jimmy responded, I don't doubt that.

This is for life, man.

This is for life.

And so all we can hope is that Randy is with them for life as well.

You know, that would be a treat.

That would be a gift.

Although, like comedy is a key part of their relationship, is their religion, is their belief network, all of it front.

I would be remiss to not shout out a subtle, but I think very special and also important, like, as a tether to the ethos of the worldview and mission of the show front.

On the last he said, I will be returning to the last he said once more.

I'm sorry, I'm not.

When Jimmy was bitching about all of the stressors, and he's so cranky, and Kayla just says, Some people are doctors, have fun.

It's like, yeah.

Right.

That's right.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

Did you enjoy when Kayla snuck into Jimmy's house and she was like, Sure, cleaning Jimmy?

Great stuff.

I also really enjoyed the soap opera digest conversation when Kayla's like, did you stand up for yourself?

No, they're busy.

It's fine.

You were the last to know.

This is like when you found out your parents were getting divorced from soap opera digest, which then led to a story about going to Gelson's for cheese for his lunch before school.

Another very LA story.

So that was just,

it's great stuff, man.

I mean, I do think that one thing that we didn't mention is

Jimmy really

growing in his ability to go full gorilla.

That's right.

Kayla has only gone half gorilla up to this point, and Jimmy does go full gorilla,

does his Bob Dylan thing.

And

it's really magical to see.

So it's another, it's like a mirror, right?

You know, we've got Deborah and Ava working toward each other, and Kayla and Jimmy, too.

Everybody's teaching each other a lesson.

Sometimes you lead with love, and sometimes you don't.

Kayla learned a little bit from Jimmy, and he learned a little bit from her, and isn't that beautiful.

Why do you give up a Malibu house with its own jet ski?

Comes with the house.

Comes with the house.

Real uptick in perks from corner office to Malibu Beach House.

Wow.

Great stuff.

All right, Nora.

Any other closing thoughts before we conclude today?

I mean, you have heard my both wish casting and

guessing as to where season five might go.

Is there anything that you're dying to see them hit, Mel?

So this is not not, I'm not dying to see this necessarily, but that is, that does remind me.

We got that sequence of the

implosion of the Tropicana in Vegas and Marcus watching with.

Yeah.

And that felt like clearly there to tease because there's a discussion, Marcus's partner, his mom, or partner, like

the soul of Vegas having shifted, right?

That we've gone from gritty, dirty Vegas with an identity and a sense of self to like corporate Vegas and everything is sterile and cookie cutter and the same.

And that look in Marcus's eye

really close in the season to Deborah visiting Marcus at his new job.

And I was like, Don't you miss the conniving?

Don't you miss the, you know, don't, and he's just like, well, yeah, but like, this is profitable.

Seems clear that we're going to get some sort of like they're launching their own boutique hotel/slash casino/slash live event space plotline for season five.

Is Marcus going to challenge Mayor Joe in the next election?

I mean, I'm just going to be frank.

With love and respect for Mayor Joe, I would be voting for Marcus, who seems much more equipped to handle public office.

Seems actually like incredibly organized and responsible and with a mind for growth and business and efficiency.

Yeah.

Mayor Joe just vibes.

Marcus either opening a hotel or running for office or maybe both.

Damien, hopefully treating his ulcer.

Don't tell Deborah.

It's like, no, I haven't taken Garby yet.

Don't tell Deborah.

And I really, especially given the amount of bear urine he's been exposed to over the course of this season, I really hope he sees a doctor.

Me too.

Me too.

I did enjoy when they were like, I'd get, you know, these calf tans.

We never, we weren't sure.

It's in the light of day.

That was great.

The root of what you have identified is works its way into my mind.

I think what you're citing about building toward a moment where Deborah is like, it's your turn, Ava, and I'm here to help you.

I agree.

I think that's where this is probably ultimately heading.

I don't know if season five still feels too soon for that.

I wonder if the golden trio driving the hacks creative machine has an X number of seasons and this is like the dream, but we could do it in this many, like how, how they're approaching

structuring their story, you know, how much they feel like they have to do each season versus like having the comfort to wait on.

But yeah, I'm interested to see what the next evolution in that relationship is.

And I do hope that we get more, not just thematic thruples, but

actual thrupples.

I mean, we don't need to limit it to three either.

That's right.

Haxis.

Hax has told us loud and clear, the more the merrier.

I do.

Yeah.

I guess I think that I felt like it was building that way just because of Deborah's non-compete.

Yeah.

And because it does feel true to me

that

that's not, that the role reversal and who gets the spotlight.

is maybe not something that even in this moment when she has sacrificed so much for Ava and professed professed her love, that Deborah would be willing to take on just because she thinks it's time and

Ava has earned it.

Yeah.

But when structurally prevented from taking the stage herself, there's literally no other choice.

I can see it.

I can see it being possible.

I'll be curious to see if we pick up inside of that 18-month window still.

Yeah.

Or out of it.

That'll be fascinating to see.

So, okay.

Well, I look forward to season five.

I look forward to reconvening with you to talk about all of the amazing things that we got to see Randy see and say and do.

Shout out to Randy.

Yeah, thank you.

It's time for thank yous.

Thank you to Randy, most of all, obviously.

Thank you to you.

Thank you to Kai Grady and Justin Sales for their work on this episode.

We will see you for season five, whatever that might be.

In the meantime, go to one party.