The ‘Sopranos’ Episode That Got Us Hooked

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Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed.

I'm Joanna Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

We're here with the series season, let's say finale of Hooked with a very special guest.

It's Van Lathan.

Van, what's up?

What's up, everybody?

How you guys doing?

Tell me about the vibe today.

You're coming in high.

You're coming in with the pigskin.

I feel

this is a good time.

I've spent this past weekend watching Demon Slayer, one battle after another, the Smashing Machine, all of it.

It's just a good time to be talking stuff.

There's a lot of stuff to be talking about.

Look, world's on fire.

That's okay.

We're focused.

It's not what it's about today.

All right.

Say that's the first time.

We're going to go back in time.

We're going to go back to the 90s.

Please.

When the world was less on fire.

Does that sound like a good idea?

This is hooked, which of you have not been listening to our previous episodes of hooked, the premise of which is what, Rob Mahoney.

It is: if you were trying to get a friend, or in this case, two podcasters, to watch a show they had never seen before, what is the one episode of that show you would put in front of them that is not the pilot?

Today is a momentous day

because Rob Mahoney and I have gone from watching zero episodes of the Sopranos

to two episodes of the Sopranos.

Incredible gains for us.

Who's going to hold us back now?

Who's to stop us now from world domination?

And Van is here to Van explain to us everything that is important about the Sopranos and why we are better people for having seen these episodes of television.

Yeah, it's tough.

Can you see a difference in us, Van?

Like, are we glowing?

Do we have a different thing?

You complimented my hair earlier.

True.

And by compliment i mean you just noticed it you didn't say anything nice about it but that's okay isn't that a compliment though like when you say did you change your hair like it's it means i guess it depends how you say it depends on the noise you see your hair

you know is that a new shirt

um uh it from it's interesting i am glad that you guys are taking your soprano's journey it is

just a weird, wacky, crazy journey, but it also is very indicative of a time in American television television history.

And I think you can watch the change in television throughout the run of the Sopranos and right after it.

So it's not only an insanely entertaining show to watch, but also an incredibly important show to watch.

I can make an argument that maybe if the Sopranos doesn't take off like it does, then this show maybe doesn't even exist.

Because maybe prestige television, this, yeah, maybe it doesn't even exist.

Maybe that's not even a thing if the Sopranos doesn't become what it becomes.

Just you saying that is making me like blink out of existence back to the future stuff.

Yeah, like a little Marty McFly or you can't play guitar anymore.

Okay, so bare bones, what the Sopranos?

The Sopranos

ran on HBO from 1999 to 2007.

And as Van just mentioned, forever changed the way we think, talk, and write about television as a medium.

It's not the only show to do that, but it is one of the biggies to do that.

It won two Peabody Awards, five Golden Globes, and 21 Emmy Awards.

Holy shit.

Including, it was nominated for Outstanding Drama Series every single season, and it won two of those seasons.

And it ushered in the golden age of the white male anti-hero with shows like The Shield, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Dexter, and

yeah, even Game of Thrones, which was pitched to HBO as the Sopranos go to Middle-earth.

All of that comes from the Sopranos.

I do want to do a quick footnote because Van is here and Van's the person I know who mentions this show the most.

Oz did predate

the Sopranos.

I feel like when we talk about the Sopranos, we erase what Oz did to sort of change the way that we think and talk about television.

So I just want to put that footnote in there.

Maybe that's like a future hooked episode for us to talk about.

Please.

Can I say something about that real quick?

Yeah, please.

So not only does oz predate the sopranos but the wire comes around

uh two or three or four years into it right

oz was uh an appetizer for what the sopranos was

and as great as the wire was

it became a side dish while the shows were both both running and the reason why that is is because

the wire

To me, when people got around to understanding just how brilliant the show was, it was brilliant because of all the ways, at first, for all the ways, it wasn't the Sopranos.

Not to me, that wire has gone on to become a show that is more critically acclaimed than the Sopranos and to me, better, but

not,

it wasn't as accessible as the Sopranos was, and neither was Oz.

The Sopranos was a show that had all the critical bona fides, the performances, all of that stuff, but it was accessible to a wide audience in ways those other shows weren't.

I remember Oz at points was scary with the amount of violence, some of the sexual abuse, some of the things that it delved into.

It just wasn't for all of America.

The Sopranos was incredibly violent and all of that, but it was funny.

It was charming.

It had beautiful people on it from time to time.

So it was the show that proved that a show like that could be for everyone.

It's an interesting, you know, obviously you're the expert on the sopranos compared to us on this podcast but just even watching these two episodes and then doing some reading about them but trying to avoid any spoilers actually it's tough um it's tough i um

i think that is one of the things i was most impressed by was the sort of trojan horse way in which you have something that is so funny and does give you like the high and low, the low of like, there's, you know, there's, we're whacking people, there's nudity and sex and all the things that you enjoy on that level.

There's all of that there.

The comedy is like really, really good.

And then you've got like high art wrapped in there.

You've got psychological examination.

You've got,

we're thinking about Hawthorne quotes.

We're looking, we're contemplating statues.

We're like doing all of that stuff in there.

And when you read the way in which so many brilliant people were writing about the Sopranos at the time,

like breaking down every single shot, talking about the cinematography on the show like it is an art film, like all of that sort of stuff.

All of those things can exist together.

And that's just like the absolute ideal of what you want from something like this, where everyone can enjoy it on whatever level that they approach the show.

And I know that, like, for some, my understanding is that for some people, some of the dream sequences or this, that, and the other thing was not their cup of tea and they would rather just have it a more straightforward show.

But I love that all those things are existing and commingling side by side inside of what I watched at least.

Yeah, I mean, if the measure of a show is what it brings out in the world, in the audience, in other artists, I don't think there's an argument that this is one of the most influential shows and therefore one of the most important and successful shows ever made.

Like you can already see it.

And it's such a trip, Joe, watching this through the lens of today and having to kind of.

push away everything that has been influenced by the Sopranos and that feeling of like, I have seen this thing before, but oh, wait, I have seen it because 50 other shows have tried to rip off this show.

Yeah.

Van, what's up?

When did you watch The Sopranos?

And

how important was it to you when you watched it?

Let's go back.

So the show drops in 1999, I think, and 1999 comes out.

So I'm in college.

We don't have HBO at the Carruthers dorm at Louisiana Tech.

We get together and we

ask

for the ability to buy HBO

because there's a show that's so talked about, right?

So

you get to the point where now you can get HBO as an add-on to the regular basic cable package that you have there at

Tech.

At least that's what we were told.

Maybe you could have done it the whole time.

I began to watch the show, and right away,

the show resonates with me like right away.

And the reason is because my relationship with Mafia stuff,

always been into it,

really Really born and bred on that type of storytelling.

But there was a change that had happened.

Like, analyze this had come out not too long before this.

It actually comes out like just after.

Or maybe during the season.

Just at the same time.

To the point where they actually reference it in the Sopranos.

Like they reference the fact that there are two things where a mobster is going to see a shrink.

But both of those shows and movies are interesting is because it's an attempt to humanize the mobster as a regular frail human being and not regular frail mobster.

Like

the mafia had been pulled apart.

Giuliani and the rest of the U.S.

attorneys had brought all of these guys down.

So the question was, since they're no longer masters of the universe, how are they as just citizens of society?

How do you reconcile this hyper toxic masculine existence with just like like being a dad, not family is everything, like Vito Corleone, just regular day in, day out stuff.

Your mom gets on your nerves.

Your uncle is disappointed in you.

How do you do it?

And

that to me, for some reason, even at 19, just blew my mind.

The episode that we're going to talk about, everything that...

kind of gets thrown into that gumbo, it was a different way to tell the story of a mafioso and attention that I hadn't really seen in the telling of that story before.

Right away, it was cooking with gas and it never stopped until the end.

I think it's really interesting to think about like

the

mob story as something that had, you know, grown and become so important inside of like the Coppola sense or the Scorsese sense.

And then, to your point, Van become something of a punchline in the married to the mob sense, and then eventually like analyze this that and the other thing and um

the fact that this show was sort of originally pitched to the networks as a kind of more overt comedy starring like Anthony Lepaglia like that's a version of the Sopranos we could have gotten if Fox decided that that's what they wanted you know what I mean and then again Rob Mahoney blinks out of existence in this podcast it's tough

um but like that's that's what people were thinking of when they were thinking of mob stories at the time, right?

We had done Goodfellas, we had gotten like we had gotten to the mountaintop, and then we were just sort of parroting the Godfather and Goodfellas into the late 90s.

And then this comes this resurgence.

And I think

what's so important about it at sort of the tail end of the Clinton era of America is

mob stories as

the most

like least delicate telling of the capitalist American dream.

Like, this is what capitalism is, this is what it is to rise up.

This is the immigrant story.

This is what the American dream is.

But you have to look at all the actual nastiness that is involved in, as we'll talk about in one of the two episodes that we might talk about today,

getting the big house and all the money you could possibly ever want and that sort of thing.

I think the reason, like, ultimately, like, the revolutionary idea is splitting that particular baby of we're actually going to do the very serious mob story and the mob comedy at the same time.

And Joe, I don't know what your experience was with these first two episodes, but like, I had heard the Sopranos is funny.

I don't think I realized how funny it was going to be.

And, like, that's, that's, that was always a barrier of entry for me.

It's like, do I want to put on the big serious drama when I'm looking to unwind at the end of the night?

And the idea of that, plus the history and the shadow and the number of episodes for this show overall, even knowing its reputation, I always just like wasn't in, I thought I wasn't in the right mood for it, but it turns out I was.

And it turns out that I think the humor as a gateway into something that feels very familiar, something that is so understanding of what it is, like having therapy as the device to let Tony Soprano do the Goodfellas narration is just an ingenious kind of conceit for a first episode and kind of structural choice that is letting you understand that everyone here involved like knows what we're doing.

Like we know what world we're playing in.

We're going to make all the appropriate references And we're still going to show you, like, a bunch of stuff you haven't really seen or felt before.

Also, having him go, having him go to therapy is right away an indicator that he's not like the mafiosos you knew before.

Yes.

Now, you're going to learn that throughout the show.

You're going to learn all the frailty of Tony Soprano, but the fact that his life has become so overwhelming to him that he can't deal with it without bringing in some extra help, which of course we all know that therapy is an amazing resource if you feel overwhelmed or if you just want tools in order order to stay healthy and proactive about your mental health.

So no down talking therapy here.

But the fact that he's doing it and he's serious about it because he's having panic attacks

is,

it blew my mind.

And

there was a version of, there's a version of the mafioso that we got that came up through the 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s that these guys were impenetrable.

Then they became penetrable.

Then we heard them all wiretaps saying stuff that they shouldn't have said.

We saw them go to jail.

We saw them die of things that happened while they were inside of the, they became human.

And so the mafioso for that time was a modern, flawed mafioso that sometimes can't stop his heart from beating.

But at the same time,

over the course of the show,

almost reverts and turns into the classic boss from 65 or 70 or 55 that is untouchable, pure evil, and has everyone doing things at his whim just for power.

But the version of this show, the version of Tony Soprano that you get when the show starts, almost dashing, right?

Like almost dashing, young, still kind of wild-eyed, even at 40.

about what the mob is and what his place in it is is what makes the first season of the show so special.

I love what you're bringing up in terms of this like inciting incident because something we've talked about over the course of this series, looking at the pilots of these big shows is like

you, a pilot can do two things.

It can either drop you into someone's world in the middle of their world and you sort of figure out what's going on or bring you into the world along with another character.

There's like an inciting incident, right?

Are we joining someone in the middle of their life or are we joining someone as their life is about to change?

Are we joining Peggy as she goes to to work at the ad firm?

Are we joining Walter White as he begins to cook meth?

Are we joining everyone on Flight of Oceanic A-15 as they're playing crashes on an island?

You know, like, is there an inciting incident?

And, like, the fact that

you know, Peggy going to work at a new organization or Don Draper having his life secrets sort of starting to bubble up is one thing.

The small ball but big ball,

like, inciting incident of this show being a guy goes to therapy, and that being the inciting incident of us coming into this chapter of the show is absolutely intoxicating to me.

You know what I mean?

Cause it's like, it's not, it's not a plane crash.

It's not, we're cooking meth, right?

But it's, but it's seismic for this world, for this kind of guy.

It's as big as a plane crash.

Do you know what I mean?

Especially with the way I would say that him going to therapy is like, is woven into the plot of the show.

And I would say it's like an amplifier for the stakes of the show, right?

He is feeling, you know, this is an actual guy who is collapsing at moments where he should not collapse.

Something is clearly wrong with him that he wants to address or needs to address.

There's also the very real thing he's talking about in therapy, which is if anyone knew I was here, I am in mortal peril.

And so he, so again, we're just like building the stakes by him doing the thing that he is acknowledging by the end of the pilot that he needs to do.

That, that in itself is intoxicating too, Joe.

Like we are just building on all of these different elements that are, that are feeding the sense of danger.

and ultimately uh the stakes are becoming more and more immortal for tony soprano even within the first episode his relationship with his father is something that the show dives directly into but

him comparing himself he does something at this age at his age that i just reflexively did at my age too just compare yourself to how tough your fucking dad was

My dad walks in, there's a bee in the fucking living room, and we're all being being kids, like dodging the bee.

Ha ha ha is a big wasp, a big wasp.

And so I'm not want y'all to think that I'm, you know, I'm tough.

And we're all running from the wasp, having fun.

My dad walls in, he goes, what y'all doing?

And then he just grabs it and crushes it with his hand.

Yeah.

And we were like, God damn.

He's like, yeah.

He's like, y'all done?

The fun over?

I played the video game.

He walks to the back.

And you think that you get to an age and you see your weakness in that.

And then you get to a different age and what you see is the strength of your father.

And that's cool until you go, wait a minute, am I not that?

Right.

Did it, did it fail me?

Am I not that?

And then that's what Tony's going through.

Tony's conversations with Dr.

Melfie are interrogating the idea of manhood.

He talks about Gary Cooper, the strong, silent type.

He talks about all of these things that he does not think that he is, that he wishes that not only he were, but that other people were, at the same time, indicting his father and his mother from turning him into somebody that needs to take therapy.

And so

it's

the mafia part of it just

becomes on the back side, just another thing that's stressing Tony out.

I think it's so interesting.

And I think this is another, again, we're so fresh to the Sopranos, so it feels a little presumptuous to me to be like, This is what the show is about.

But I think something the show does so well

is you know, something that David Chase has talked about is like in all of the therapy scenes, they didn't use music cues because they didn't want to guide the viewer into like this is a big moment of revelation or anything like that.

So, there's like no music cues in the therapy scenes.

And in dream sequences, the camera doesn't zoom in on anything because, once again, as a storyteller, he's not trying to direct you, He's trying to invite you.

This is a collaborative story, right?

That

in setting it in the world of therapy, whenever Dr.

Melfie says, and what do you think that means?

David Chase has said, I'm inviting the audience to then ask, what do I think that means?

And so we're all sort of making this story in the show together.

And I love that, Van, one of my favorite people on the planet, that you're zeroing in on dad stuff when like this is such a mom stuff show, but for you, this is also very much a dad-stuff show, you know what I mean?

Because it's a collaborative, sort of, you're bringing what is important to you to the table.

You are exactly right,

but

what I will say:

the reason why I honed in on the dad stuff is because Tony becomes Johnny Boy,

like he,

his, his, what he really wanted, my version of

my interpretation interpretation of the show is what he really wanted was somebody to stop him from doing that.

And

that colors his relationship with AJ and Meadow and

the way he's looking at them and what he wants for them.

He really wanted someone to protect him from that world, which his mother was incapable of.

He gives his dad actually a pass, but he realizes he's kind of not the same kind of guy, but he gives his dad a pass and he blames his mother in a way for not protecting him from becoming his father and junior and everybody else.

And then, not only does she not do that, I don't want to ruin anything for you guys,

but

she then directly becomes involved in things regarding that life.

And he can never

get his arms around that.

He has mommy issues for sure,

but what he wanted to be was not his father.

And I think that he blamed his mother for not loving him out of that or protecting him for that life and literally judging him on the same terms that everybody else that was adjacent to that life judged him on.

She was the same way.

She was like anybody else.

I think that's a perfect segue into saying

we will talk a little bit more about the pilot at the end of the episode, but the hooked episode that we have forced Van to agree with us is the episode um

is college which is season one episode five college um when we first floated the idea of this show to bill to random passersby to whoever

everyone's first response was oh like the college episode of the sopranos like that this is like the platonic ideal of the hooked concept so

and i think it really dovetails nicely with what you were just talking about, man, this idea of like

when you go from child to parent and what Tony talks about in this episode with Meadow about the way in which his parents didn't encourage him, but the way in which he's trying to encourage her while also failing to do that perfectly because he's got this other pull on him, which is the other side of his life.

So season two, episode five, college, written by James Manos Jr.

and David Chase, directed by Alan Coulter.

Cinematography by Alex Sakharov, who is an incredible cinematographer, went on to direct, was a cinematographer on Game of Thrones episode Baylor, an all-timer, directed some Game of Thrones episodes.

Really talented dude.

This is the one where Tony takes Meadow on a tour of main colleges, spots a guy

who rided on the mob in the process.

Home life and work life slam together while back at the Soprano family home.

Carmella tries a bit to slam together with Father Phil while they watch Remains of the Day, which is a great movie.

Yeah, just two normal pals sitting hip to hip watching Remains of the Day.

Dazzling red wine.

Totally normal stuff.

This is fine.

Van,

I know this is not the episode you wanted to pick, and I will give you an opportunity to talk about the episode you wanted to pick.

But why is this

what everyone else considers the clear answer?

All right, so I've changed, and this is the episode.

Okay.

Okay.

It was an intellectual choice.

I have to learn to stop putting my favorites and stuff and to to be objective.

That's my new name.

Man, no.

Objective Van.

What you told me is that you did not want to be regular degular in your channel.

Because it's too easy, right?

It is easy.

But look, all the passers-by were right for a reason.

Like, this is a great pick.

Yeah.

It's so

many things happen.

One, Metal learns for certain that her father is in the mafia.

Gigantic.

So because he's not hiding it from her anymore, that means we are drawn in a little closer.

We've finally got the secret identity of Batman.

So, once you know Batman's secret identity, which you guys, you can learn in the first comic, but once you know Batman's secret identity, you now have to stop pretending that

he's two different people, right?

Well, yeah, it's like Bothu Vampire Slayer or any number of other shows where, like, which start with the superhero, none of his friends know his identity, and then slowly over the course of the series, everyone knows.

And Meadow knowing here unlocks this huge part of Tony not being able to lie to himself about exactly now.

He has to reconcile it rather than just hide it from her.

Dr.

Melfie,

it's learned that Dr.

Melfi is a lady, which Tony, in one of the great unforced eras in television history, lied about before.

And now Carmella knows.

The hit that comes at the end of this show is so interesting to me because

Tony could have, he could have.

There's a world where this guy ignores the fact that he saw this dude.

Easily.

He ignores the fact that he saw this guy.

And his life would not change at all.

Like nothing else would change if he just walked away and did not kill this dude.

As a matter of fact, I could make an argument that he could send Chris and them back up there and look for the guy and and they would still find him.

They would still find him.

But so many of the decisions that happen in Sopranos are about Tony's impulses.

They're not about things that he thinks about, they're about his impulses and how he's been programmed with those impulses, how therapy is helping him contextualize them, analyze them, and talk about why they're there.

And this show shows,

this episode shows the force of that it shows that it doesn't matter if i'm on a college trip with my daughter my impulse to violence in this situation that's been nurtured by my father and my uncle in the lifestyle that will override sometimes even the safety of my family and that's the central tension in this entire show

and it at the end when tony decides to kill and unmask himself to meto his transformation into the guy who's going to be the boss of the Soprano family is not complete because there's some more satisfying, but you see the trajectory of who he actually is.

It's the first time we see him totally clearly.

And even then, like his first instinct when Meadow calls him on this, and I'm like, I'm just so glad that you have a child character calling their problematic dad on something in episode five.

Like so many shows overplay that hand and string out that plot.

We're just confronting it.

And his first instinct is like kind of half deflect it.

It's It's first to fully deflect it and like basically throw her under the bus as like stereotyping him, extremely tough.

And then to say, oh no, it's just like gambling money, like, right?

Like, this isn't what you think it is.

It's kind of dirty, but not as dirty as you think.

And it takes basically the full episode for him to overcome that kind of instinctive barrier.

And even then, he's sort of keeping her at arm's length.

And I think kind of twisting this idea of them having like an honest and truthful relationship as a means to then also give him some plausible deniability.

But having all of that as sort of an introduction to the show, and you know, this is the first, you know, we've done two shows that I have not seen.

Lost was the other one, and then this lost, we covered the pilot, though.

And so we, we were really jumping in from the beginning.

I decided to actually honor the prompt and start with this episode.

Oh, you did in reverse.

And starting it with her confronting him in the car effectively to whether he's in the mafia or not, I think is like kind of an ingenious side door into this story.

That's brilliant.

I'm so glad you did that, Rob.

And I think I'm committed to process

ultimately.

Good posture, Mahoney.

Thank you.

I think that

that is a huge advantage of this episode: it is self-contained.

You could just watch this episode and you understand everything that's going on.

You know, a question we like to ask about these hooked episodes is like, is it a typical episode?

Absolutely not, right?

We're in Maine for half, like more than half of the episode.

We're not in New Jersey.

Is that not typical?

Like, does Tony not work in admissions at like Bowden or something?

Bates.

We are,

you know, Christopher and Dr.

Melfi are like literally on the phone.

That's as much as they're in this episode.

And it's a real three-hander between Carmella, Tony, and Meadow.

And

I really like what you were saying.

Van, and how that's represented in the episode.

I was so tense, even though I knew what choice he was going to make, I was so tense in that moment when Meadow's like, turn that way for Colby.

And he's, and the camera is like all over the place.

And my adrenaline was pumping as he was deciding whether or not to just continue on this college trip with his daughter or chase this guy that he thinks he recognizes.

And then he makes the turn.

And then the fact that she's like, oh, well, this will get us there anyway was like really funny and interesting to me.

And then all the way down into

the death scene, his decision to kill this dude is

talked about all over the place

as a Rubicon that television crossed, that forever changed.

So my understanding is that

HBO saw the script and they're like, that's fine.

And then they saw how it was shot and the way in which Gandalfini is like sweating and spitting and bleeding.

And they were like, no,

you can't have your main character do this.

He will lose, you'll lose the audience.

They won't be able to root for this guy anymore anymore if they watch him do this.

And then David Chase puts his foot down and he's like, no, this is a show.

In terms of like

the code of the mafia and

Tony's character and honor, he's a worm if he doesn't do this.

He has to do this.

And so they showed it and the audience stuck.

with him.

And that's why we get Walter White going to meth and like, you know, doing all the shit that Walter White does or all the shit that Don Draper does or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, down the line because Tony Soprano, you know,

choked a guy to death in the woodlands of Maine.

That's why.

You know what I mean?

Him choking that guy to death.

I mean, that scene is on fire.

Like, it is, it is so good.

And, you know, we usually reserve some space to kind of talk about a specific scene.

I think that is like by far the standout scene of this episode.

And I think it is because it's incorporating so many different things we've been talking about, right?

It is everything you just laid out, Joe, in terms of the historical importance of having a main character do terrible things.

It is a guy who should be with his daughter off murdering somebody else instead and kind of making that like declarative choice.

It's a mafia boss who's kind of like lashing out at what the world has become, right?

Like against this guy who turned state's witness and like making his own statement to try to hold on to a world that basically doesn't exist anymore.

And it's just a guy who commits murder and then watches the ducks fly by.

And I have to say, even before seeing the pilot,

that moment just really hits, like that kind of grace note at the end of the murder to stop and watch the ducks

really lets you know what kind of show you're watching.

Do you guys remember that movie, Funny Games?

You ever see that?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Of course, and I say unfortunately, not because it's bad, but because it makes my skin crawl.

Yeah.

It's one of the, I know it's not a horror movie, but I'll definitely be.

It's definitely a horror movie.

That'd be scary.

That is a horror movie.

Okay.

So

the director, Michael Hankey, is his name.

What was his name?

Yeah, Hanneke.

Haneke.

Not to spoil it, but there's a point in the movie.

I'm fucking spoiling.

I'm sorry.

I'm sick of the putrid, toxic spoiler culture.

Okay, spoilers for funny games.

Spoilers for funny games, right here.

There's a point in the movie where the family that's been abducted, either the wife or the husband gets the upper hand and they're able to wrest control away from

the intruders.

And when you first watch the movie, you're like, oh shit,

they saved themselves.

And then all of a sudden, one of the characters picks up the remote and rewinds the movie.

Like, rewinds the movie and avoids that scenario.

One of the most interesting comments on

his own work that a filmmaker has ever made is saying, is the director said, the writer director said, at that point, you should probably turn the movie off.

Yeah.

Because you know at that point what's about to happen.

You're just watching these people and their eventual demise.

And now there's no chance that they're saved.

Some superhuman thing has flown in and made sure that

you're now complicit in what it is that you're doing.

It's a communion of sorts.

Tony killing that guy at the end was our communion with Tony Soprano.

We no longer had any illusions about who Tony Soprano was.

That's it.

He killed a dude while he was on a college trip with his daughter, and he liked it.

Oh, he loved it.

And

he liked it.

It was something that all us getting up to the ledge of maybe he's not going to do this.

Maybe he's going to prioritize.

He almost got Meadow killed.

He almost killed Meadow in the car.

And if the hit, if the old people don't show up at the hotel and that guy shoots, he could kill Tony and Meadow.

And none of that stops Tony because Tony Soprano is exactly who we know he is.

We make the same decision for him that we make for people in our everyday lives.

As people, I think it's underrated sometimes at how we choose to look at the best parts of people, particularly the people that we know.

I choose to remember uncles and people that I know that have done all kinds of terrible things as the guy who teached me how to use my left hand on the basketball court and the guy who told me about girls.

You're choosing.

by your intimacy with someone and the choice that we make to make Tony Soprano into a hero throughout the run of this show is constantly tested by the writing of the show.

And it gets very hard to do by the end, but this was our first test.

And we went,

you know what?

He still loves his daughter.

So

he's okay.

I can still root for him.

And I think what's genius about that is that that is baked into the other half of this episode, which is the Carmella storyline, right?

Because you get this,

you know, I love the Carmella stuff inside of this episode and something that has not genuinely, I don't know why I never saw the Sopranos before.

I don't, I know why I didn't in 1999, I was in college and we didn't even have like basic cable.

We had no television in my dorm room.

So like.

I

didn't know that I could have petitioned them to get us HBO, but we had like no opportunity for that.

15 and one is what we call it.

15 channels that you can ask at HBO.

You should have hit me, man.

I got

the band finesse that shit.

I should have known.

So I missed it when it started.

and then why did i never watch it in in the intervening years i really could not tell you there was nothing i didn't think like

it wasn't for me or anything like that i just did not get to it and then when i started working at the ringer it became a problem that i hadn't watched it and i was just waiting to be able to podcast about it because i didn't want to like

waste the experience of dipping your toe into something this massive and not be able to like have this conversation about it.

This is why you're also now a Patriots fan.

Yeah.

You know me, Rob.

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One thing I didn't, it didn't stop me from watching it, but one thing I wondered about was how are the women treated in this show?

Because I do know that.

you know, Edie Falco won an Emmy for this episode.

I know that Edie Falco is like revered inside of like the acting spheres, but I also remember in the height of the Skylar White, like all this bullshit, that Carmella was sometimes like lumped in with these characters who were getting in the way of your fun time with your dude that did bad shit and the nagging wife who would stop him.

So I was curious, that can sometimes, that is usually a fandom thing and not a show writer thing.

And so I was curious how Carmella would be sort of treated inside of these two episodes that we watched.

I love the room that this episode makes for her.

I think Tony killing that guy is the moment of the episode.

Yes.

But her speech about why she is complicit is so standout to me.

And I think her,

everything she says about, I love him anyway,

is what Van is saying is what the show is asking us to do is just being like, we're seeing Tony do this.

And we know why he has mud on his shoes and blood on his hands when Meadow asks him about it later.

And we're going to love him anyway, the way that Carmella does, because that's, that's the communion, that's the bargain, that's the complicity that we are entering into along with Meadow, along with Carmela, you know, so that Meadow can go to the nicest school, so that Carmella can have her big house,

but also

the emptiness that comes with that for Carmella, right?

Like she wanted all of this, but like

she's...

the the closest she's getting to like intimacy is sitting hip to hip with a priest who's not ever going to be able to take her to you know where one wants someone to take them.

As far as I know, I don't know what happens with Father Phil down the road, but like it does not seem like that, you know, we're vomiting instead of smooching.

Yes.

It does not seem like we're going to get what we want from him.

So I love that aspect.

Van, what is your sense of,

you know, obviously we're trying to avoid spoilers, but like your sense of how women are treating the show or the way the Carmella character is used in general?

So the important thing about the Father Phil stuff to me in this episode was that it reinforced that she has a choice.

Somebody is going to want Carmelo Soprano.

I think in a lot of these old-timey movies, before somebody is going to walk out the door, you get this speech from this guy going, look at you.

Who's going to want you?

I'm the man around here.

I'm the fucking guy.

I'm this.

I'm that.

Like, you got the sense after two that Kay was going to be completely in the wilderness without Michael.

He was going to take everything from her and a whole nine.

You know,

this is fucking Diane Keaton.

I get it.

Yeah.

In this one, there's a guy that's

completely intoxicated with her.

Now, he's a weirdo for a lot of reasons, but he's totally intoxicated with her.

There's someone that she has everything in common with.

She almost has nothing in common with Tony at this point.

Nothing except for their history.

Her and this guy like the same movies.

He loves her cooking.

They have their conversation flows.

It's just everything she wants with her husband.

Everything she wants with her husband is right there.

She's still,

even though it looked like it was about to go down, she still is

in a position to have agency and make a choice to be in her marriage.

That question of why,

why

does someone who is decent choose this life, mirrors Tony's why.

And that's something that runs throughout the entire

show.

And we also learn at times that there is a part of Carmella that it mirrors Tony directly, that she's kind of a female boss, that she likes status and she enjoys some of these things.

the choice to be with him is one that she struggles with, but one that she has made and actually can't contend with herself for making it.

But this, oh, first of all, two things.

Sexual tension with a priest is always good.

It's never not worked.

It almost always works.

It always, because you're thinking to yourself, you've made, taking this vow of celibacy.

Oh, the way that's shot?

Yeah.

Defer.

Very provocative, to say the least.

And you.

We said they didn't go through with it, but they kind of went through it.

They kind of did.

And by the way, this priest who doesn't experience this release, really,

for everything that is, they've already energetically had sex.

He came over there to have sex with her without touching her.

And that is what is happening.

But when it's time for her to get the gratification that she actually wants, which is someone to actually hold her and love her in actual physical human connection, he vomits.

To put that side by side with the scene that they're watching from Remains of the Day, where base, you know, like where Anthony Hopkins is basically like trying to not get it.

Or

trying so hard to

get it of Emma Thompson.

Hey, hey, back up.

I can't do it.

I want you.

I want you.

I don't want to want you, though.

That is fleabag season two.

You love to see it.

It really is.

Rob, what did you think of this part of this episode?

I thought this half of the episode, it really is like half of the episode.

First of all, I was as invested in it and maybe even more so than anything that was happening with Tony and the rat.

And so that in itself made me feel really confident in the future of this show, avoiding exactly the kinds of landmines you laid out, Joe.

Like I, it's always a concern about how is the family part of this story going to be dealt with?

And which of these stories is the side quest ultimately?

And Tony is kind of dealing with that stuff in real time about like choosing his family life versus you know his mafia life, but having Carmelo have actual considerations actual agency having these stories feel like rich and it feels like there is not just time spent but just exceptionally well-written dialogue and ideas and so much to like tangle with i would say it was just like one of the most like i i just felt so great about the directions the show could go in i think the combination of that and the fact that even after everything he does in this episode and the weight of history telling me that i should know better than to like tony i still like tony means the show kind of has me right where it it wants.

You will like him to the end.

I don't know how you couldn't.

Like, there's just something there's something.

I mean, first of all, there's this

element, and then there's just like how funny that character can be and how quickly he just completely shapeshifts is so fun to watch.

But they also fuck you.

Like, they fuck with your brain with this guy.

I don't want to spoil it for you guys, but there is

another character in the show that is, I'm just going to say, in a couple of the seasons, that is mean to an animal.

The rage that that

elicits from Tony.

Yeah.

The rage that that elicits from Tony, that because this person has harmed, and even as Tony is taking out his frustrations on this person, he says, How could you have harmed this

beautiful, innocent creature?

He also sometimes, for no reason, sees his his children in somebody and takes it out on mafia people.

Really, I think it was the same guy.

But

there's this brutal humanity to him where you know that if he had grown up in a different situation, he'd have been a nice guy.

That's what comes out.

Okay, so Gandalfini is

just

is this show what this show is if it's not Gandalfini in this room?

No.

And like to

remember also,

like,

so

what I knew of Gandalfini before this movie was Get Shorty, the character that he plays in Get Shorty, right?

True romance.

Yeah, true romance, but like get short, like he's so good in Get Shorty.

And what he does in Get Shorty is like, he's the heavy, he's the hench, but he's like cuddly and a little dumb.

And it's this whole dichotomy thing that is so, so good.

And visually,

this is a supporting character type of guy.

That's, this is not a leading man type of guy.

This is, this is the hench.

This is the muscle.

This is the whatever.

So to bring in Alfini into the lead here, to allow him to be as funny as he can be, as charming as he can be, as like king of queens sitcom daddy as he can be at the end of this episode and he's like, Carmella, you know, like that's just like the Kevin Jaynes, like ascendant inside of him.

So, like, all of that's in here.

And then inside of this episode, college,

you know, when I was trying to pick what the scene of this episode was, it's hard not to pick the death scene.

It's hard not to pick Carmella's like, you know, confession, essentially.

Or the communion, honestly, either

or the communion.

But when he's talking to Meadow at the restaurant about liking history, you know what I mean?

And like, whether whether or not his parents, like, what if his parents had supported him going to college more?

What if he had sort of

become a history teacher?

Like, what is Tony Soprano history teacher like?

Like, what is that?

So that, like, again, a road not taken inside of an episode where we saw him, you know, do that whole shtick.

And to go back to what Van was talking about at the beginning of this idea of like Tony as a character who wishes his parents had been the kind of parent that he's trying to be for Meadow now, which is, I'm so proud of you going to college.

This is very important.

Your studies, your academics.

That's, and that's the like

capitalist American dream immigrant story.

My, my kids are going to have it better than I did.

But he's saying, my kids are going to have it better than I did.

And again, this might all fall apart as the seasons go on.

It sounds like it might, but like, and a different life than I, like, he does not want

Meadow to go into the life that he has.

You know what I mean?

So they don't, but

the people that he tried to make them into, he couldn't do it.

The people that he tried to make them into, he couldn't, he couldn't do it because he didn't have the tools.

Yeah.

But that's, that's another great moment inside of that scene in the, in the restaurant when she confesses to him that she took speed and like amphetamines to get through the SATs and finals and stuff like that.

Right.

And he says, Jesus, right on my note, under my nose, you'd think I, you'd know.

And he, and she says, no, dad, you won't.

Like, you won't know that I did this, and you won't know what I'm going to do in the future, right?

That's your high-leverage scene because,

but

he asked her something in that scene that I remember when I first watched it.

Oh, where'd you get it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she fucking got it from Chris.

And so, and if, if, in fact, Tony would have

known that.

And so when she's saying, when he's saying that to her, I'm like, oh my God,

is this, are we about to see the end of Malta Santa here?

Not to spoil it.

I had to say it.

It's too juicy.

And so, and so

she got it from Chris.

She got it from Chris because Adriana was like, hey, she's going to go down and get it from the blacks on Jefferson Avenue.

I don't know if they said blacks.

They might have said some other words.

I don't know.

I can't remember now.

But

it, it,

and look, it's a

as a black watcher of the Sopranos, there's a communion

that we took as well so let's not dwell on it let's move on but

but but um but yeah so like even in that stuff i i'll name another scene this the car chase scene yeah where he is

putting his life and his daughter's life at risk but he's still trying to dat it up Yeah, he's still just, that's because you're talking to me.

That's, he's still trying to maintain the mask of, hey, it's not me driving 100 miles an hour to find somebody that I must kill.

I'm just messing around here.

Just the whole tension of the exorcism of Tony in this episode and of Carmella and kind of of Meadow, kind of an exorcism when she talks about taking the pills, all of that stuff that's happening in this episode.

Fascinating stuff.

And I think like the alchemy of so much of what we're talking about is like you have that Oshuk's dad played by the supporting actor type, portraying like a character who is nostalgic for a time that he himself did not experience.

It's just like his vision of what men were and what the mafia was.

All of that like rolls together, I think, in such an appealing way.

There's no way for Rob and I to watch this without knowing certain things because the Sopranos was like too big.

And I'm not saying, I actually think I've avoided most major spoilers, except for I, I think when I posted about this on social, some people shot some spoilers at me, but who knows if they're all true.

I don't know.

I'm pretending, I'm choosing to believe that some of them are fake, but I know that Meadow is a character on this show.

But there is a moment inside of this episode when Carmella is talking about, you know, her children, the risk she's put her children in growing up around this.

And she's like, I can't help but feel like this is all going to come like

back on me or back on them.

And right in close proximity to that, you've got.

you know, this guy who has Meadow in his sights with a gun at the motel.

And so, you know, even though I knew Meadow was in the show i was like if i were watching this in 1999 would i be really worried that meadow is about to die right now because carmella said this and tony's actions are leading to this

turns out david chase is a very smart storyteller and whatever the those ramifications are and surely they're coming

they're more subtle than her just getting shot inside of episode five and they're it's a slower role than let's just put this all on the table at episode five of season one you know what I mean?

I think part of the reason you can do that with the Sopranos too, and like part of the reason that both of these episodes and mob stories just hit is there is never a dull moment and there will always be more opportunities to put these characters in danger.

And so it doesn't feel like a cop-out that they're in the sites and nothing happens.

And you also don't feel like this is going to be the only time that something like this will come up.

Like I, I would imagine Tony's family will be, if not directly under fire, endangered in all kinds of ways over the life of this show.

But because there's always a guy to see, because there's always drugs to get, because there's always guns to move or a thing to do, it's like the machinery of these stories just lends itself to all that danger all the time to everyone who's even remotely in the orbit of it.

And I think ultimately, when you have characters who are even the least bit interesting, it works.

And when you have characters who are this interesting, I mean, it just fucking sings.

Like no one needs us to say in 2025 that the Sopranos is good, but it's really fucking good.

Hot take.

It's a good show.

It's a good show.

You know, the interesting thing about the danger is throughout the run of the show, the kids are never really in danger from

mafia style crime retribution stuff.

In that physical direct sense,

Meadow being in the crosshairs,

there's some stuff that happens, but they're never really in that danger.

The show does a great job of crafting

danger and stakes for each individual character.

Like Meadow getting into college or her being able to go to the school that she wants to go to, that becomes something that's like actually that you're actually invested into.

That you see Carmella get invested to.

AJ,

as you guys watch more of the show,

you're going to hear a lot of stuff about the kids on the show.

You will.

Okay.

A lot of stuff about AJ, a lot of stuff about Meadow, and they weren't always the most popular characters

on the show.

However, you can even see between the pilot and five, like Meadow feels like a completely different person.

Like there's already like dramatic recalibration happening.

As they get older,

their proximity to their parents will be

the, when I say proximity, I mean their issues with their parents will be so normal.

There will be, it will be the same shit that we all had with our parents.

Hey, yo, why you don't want to hang out with me no more?

Hey, yo, shape up.

Why are you getting in trouble in school?

Hey, yo, like what, like, what it is, who do you want to be?

We don't want you to do this.

We think you should be doing this.

Like, what are you, like, them challenging the ethics of their parents, which we all had to do.

One day you had to sit down.

You had to be like, I don't want to watch good, the bad, and the ugly.

I think Young Guns is better.

That's ridiculous.

It's not that.

But at the same time, I had to challenge my dad on the fact that I did not want to watch that movie for the 15th time.

Let me watch Amelia Estimes.

You didn't want your equivalent of going to get TN Scones.

Right, exactly.

See, and so that entire deal, but that's their thing.

Now,

they end up getting trouble and there's some stuff, but their thing is actually the same shit that kids, but it's just another thing for Tony.

Yeah.

It's just, it's, it's just another thing for Tony.

It's a thing where I have to dodge people taking shots at me.

I have to make backhanded deals.

There's New York coming for me.

There's all of these things.

And I have to come home to you getting expelled out of school.

I don't need this shit, right?

That ends up being the thing that humanizes him.

That those are the things that you can

like relate to.

Because other than that, he fucks everything that he sees.

He kills whoever he has to.

He's a thief.

He's a liar.

He's all of that stuff.

But then there's this normal part of the show that you can just glom onto that continuously draws you back in.

You're doing a great job selling this show.

Thank you so much, fan, for your service.

Something we like to do on this show is just to remember what time period these episodes debuted in.

So this debuted in 1999.

If you had to pick the most 1999 thing about the episode college,

what would you say it is?

Rob, do you have an answer for this?

I think it's got to be the payphones.

That's what I was going to say.

No texting.

No, well, even that.

No texting, Christopher.

Five years later, and like the wire is a tribute to this, everyone's on a burner.

Like, it's just we're still pay phones on the wire, but I mean, there's payphones too, but it's like you can see and feel the technology about to change in a lot of, I mean, like, this is it happens on the wire.

They literally go rip the payphones out on the wire, and there's no more.

Yeah, everything in these first episodes, episodes of the Sopranos is like backgrounded by a bunch of shit in a changing world that is making people feel isolated or this way or that.

But, like, that one is, I think, pretty glaring.

I will say the most 2025 thing, or maybe the most 2024 thing, like finding out Tony is a Roman Empire guy.

Like, he's he would fit right in in any era throughout the entire show it's almost like they got that from the sopranos throughout the entire show he's obsessed one of the dopest lines of the show well i don't want to ruin it for you but he's obsessed with the fact that you know old italy roman empire he all he sits down and does stuff that i do now sometimes i just sit down on youtube and i watch this was the battle of whatever 1917 and the shit will be three hours and i'm watching the whole thing right throughout the entire show he's that what van's not telling you is all of those battles battles took place in westero and he's talking about his game of thrones lore video addiction i just two hour robber rebellion video i'm halfway through it i've watched a bunch of different ones i know that's that's too much that is a cry for help i'm sorry no no no he's educating himself he's enriching himself i with it it's fantastic stuff a 1999 thing about the show so the payphones are definitely one oh quality of DVD player.

He comes over to watch the movie and she goes, I know that that you love that DVD player.

I know, my DVD player.

My DVD player.

If you know what I'm saying.

Put the CD in, put it in the slot.

Spinning, make some circles.

And

so,

come on.

We're all adults here, guys.

We are.

And so just that, the fact that it's like, hey.

I happen to have Romans of the Day if you want to watch it.

Well, guess what?

Right now, we all got Romans of the Day.

we can watch it whatever we want that's true you know carmella she's a real physical media person oh yeah she's she she's committed to it one other thing i want to say about father phil

that adds a layer an extra layer of goodness to the fleabag forbidden fruit sort of thing is the fact that inside of this story he's a dead man if he fucks Carmella, right?

Like there, there's that in addition to like not just betraying your vows and all that, which is no small thing, but also the danger of the mob wife, despite the fact that Tony can fuck whoever he wants, the danger of the mob wife,

you know, stepping out on him and what would happen to Father Phil if that were to happen.

So again, there's just like so much happening.

Again, there are those stakes happening.

There's the sort of like dueling confidants for Carmella with Father Phil and with Tony and his therapist, like, and the way that they are kind of superimposing and projecting their own insecurities on those other relationships.

Like there's, there's so much to unpack.

And I think that they do like pretty expedient, like pretty quickly and efficiently, but also leave a lot in the same way that any real life relationship and especially a marriage would leave a lot.

There's just always stuff on the table.

And for a show like this to already be tapping into so many different like primal things and thematic things and character beats where it's like, I'm two episodes in, episodes one and five, which were not meant to be watched in sequence.

And I feel like I have a pretty good idea of at least who these people are at this stage in the story.

Of course, some of them will change, some of them won't, but they do a great job of setting them up in contrast to another.

And to be honest, like, I think college, weirdly enough, by completely separating Tony and Carmella, like counterintuitively, because normally you want to see that relationship dynamic, but having Carmella talk about Tony and having Tony not really think about or talk about Carmella at all in his way, I think like you're really clarifying a lot about these characters.

Anything else you want to say about college?

No, not necessarily.

Just that, like,

in

my estimation, going back and watching it again for the show,

there were so many things

that

were as compelling, if not more compelling, than whether or not Tony was going to get to this guy and kill him.

I would say that over time,

the Carmella Father Phil,

that storyline,

when I watched it this time, I somehow was more connected to that.

This is the first time.

I somehow

saw

that had me on the edge of my seat.

Maybe because I've spent so much time with the other parts of it, but that for some reason worked more on me now as I've gotten older.

Maybe also because you're a pop culture podcaster now and you're like, I want a podcast about Willem Dafoe and the last education of Christ.

They were straight up doing a podcast in the middle of this episode.

It was incredible.

Would subscribe.

Would subscribe.

But I also would watch that show.

Like I would just watch the Carmella Father Phil show.

Like, I think, I think that is a testament to the weight that it can carry in an episode like this, that it just, it feels self-sustained.

In terms of the pilot,

The Sopranos,

written and directed by David Chase, again, sort of written for Fox and CBS in a different sort of era.

Obviously, there are things that happened that episode, including like Chris shooting a guy in the back of the head while he's doing Coke or whatever,

that are very HBO.

But Tony himself, despite, you know, he runs someone down, but like Tony himself does not get his hands dirty in a way that is more network-minded than HBO-minded.

And it was made in 1997, the pilot versus the show premieres in 1999.

So you can tell that by how old the kids are.

Right.

Definitely big jump between the pilot and the rest of the

show.

And then it's so funny because, you know, Bill brought this up when we were talking about task the other day.

And Rob and I were talking about one of our pet pees sometimes in prestige television is therapy as storytelling exposition device.

And also, inside of this mini series, the hooked mini series, we've been talking about voiceover as lazy pilot exposition.

But the truth is, it's just like poorly executed versions of that because the way it's used to be done.

Clearly, it can be done.

Yeah.

The therapy here and then the voiceover here.

And the difference between what Tony is saying in therapy and what we're seeing happen

is

comedy and also informing us about the world.

Her interjections inside of therapy of like, listen, this is what I'm obliged to tell you about what legally I'm beholden, you know,

helps put.

some scaffolding around that

in a way that is really funny and and keeps us on our feet in terms of like, what is Tony saying and what do we believe happened immediately inside of that episode?

All this stuff works like it's a great pilot, tremendous pilot.

It's really good.

And the fact that all of that is happening to Lorraine Bracco is just like an

extra bit of like icing on the cake.

Van.

It works perfectly as prologue to the rest of the series.

It's definitely narratively unlike the rest of it.

They make some direct

choices.

They change some stuff, right?

After the pilot, but they like recast some like Father Phil gets recast, recast except yeah so it but

Tony telling the story of the current state of his life to me

it I'm not as big of an anti-voiceover person

but despite what's said in adaptation but Tony telling the story of his life and where he is in his voice works perfectly.

I'm glad they didn't do it for the rest of the season because it would have robbed us of a lot of the dramatic tension that the show ends up creating.

But for the first season, just kind of get us into the world, it works perfectly.

It gets you up to speed really well.

And ultimately, like for the purposes of our exercise, there is no good reason you should not just start with this pilot because it is excellent.

Like it's really, really great.

Yeah.

I think the only reason that I would argue, like, why, maybe try something else, whether it's college or otherwise, is because it does feel, because of that narration and that structure, like a touch more conventional, like it feels like something I have seen before, and that's from a 2025 lens for sure.

College does not feel like something I've seen before.

Like I've seen the field trip episode, I've seen the father-daughter stuff, sure, but like.

Mob Boss takes his kid to visit colleges is such a new wrapping on the things that I think I'm familiar with that it has like a different sheen to it, I would say, than overall the structure and the ideas and the crux of the first episode.

There's this thing that happens when you

and

honestly, it's been a while for me since this happened just because

of the nature of my job for as long as I've been doing it.

It has been my job to be on top of all of these things as they come out.

To hear

it's good to be in something from the ground floor and I came too late for that, I know, but lately I've been getting a feeling that I came at the end, the best is over Yeah.

It's such a famous line and sentiment.

And I think I knew it was from the Sopranos, but I'm not sure I knew, knew it was from the Sopranos.

So to hear something

that iconic that gets referenced again and again when people talk about these feelings of ennui that we all cyclically go through in our lives or in the American culture, whatever it is.

to hear it just dropped in naturally to the flow of an episode was like a record scratch.

You know, as far back as I can remember, I've always wanted to be a gangster, like as big as that sort of moment for me watching this episode.

It was so

again, I'm gonna use the word intoxicating.

Like, I just really felt like I was like plugged back into something that was so important.

And you would think that

after that, that the death of the mafia

would have been a recurring theme on the show.

Never directly.

It's looming.

Yes.

It's

a specter that things are kind of falling off or weren't the way they used to be.

But it's almost never directly engaged in it.

I mean, there are scenes in this show where all the mobsters are watching their daughters at a soccer game.

Like, it's never,

that's the show.

Yeah.

Like, you know,

that's the show.

And, but setting it up that way just,

it helps you contextualize Tony's existential dread.

It's not that he is in his midlife crisis.

He's wondering if his entire way of life is bullshit.

But isn't that part of the midlife crisis?

It's like he is in his midlife crisis and thus

the whole everything.

Did I, I have had that actually feeling my like whole life.

I mean, like how I feel about podcasting did I get in on the ground floor

Am I at the end?

That's how I feel about like I was gonna say about our bookstores.

That's how I felt about like all the things that I've done I'm like journalism.

I'm like what our past lives in the magazine's over, you know like it's just it's it's it's a it's a very common feeling here at the end of all things.

But

I think that Tony and the way that Gandalfini plays him and the way inside of this episode you get all of that plus just the vision of him wading into the swimming pool in his robe, letting his robe get wet.

He doesn't care in order to feed some baby ducks is like

all in the mix here.

And we're in New Jersey, which is not where we're used to, you know, these kinds of stories being told.

And so

I, it's, guys, it's a good show.

It's a good show.

Guess what?

A dude getting obsessed with the baby ducks in his backyard was incredibly relatable content.

I would, I would love that kind of problem in my life, like them flying away, but portraying him in that way of someone who would break down in tears, not knowing how to process these baby ducks, who's having these crazy dreams about his, his dick falling off because he unscrewed his belly button the wrong way.

And I have to say, that was yet another moment where I realized like how dialed in I was on the shows.

I was just transfixed.

listening to him describe a dream.

And listening to a person describe a dream is not a pleasant experience for me generally, and I would guess not for most people.

But a hear, it's just like impossible to look away.

And it is impossible to look away because of everything that he's been unpacking.

You know, I remember about that scene?

Yeah.

How different my reaction to the story was from Melfie's.

I'm like, man, what's wrong with this guy, Melfie?

What kind of bird?

Little things like that ground.

But there's nothing that Tony can come in there and say.

He does get her a little bit,

but there's nothing that Tony can come in there and say that she will not respond to clinically.

Everyone else in his life responds to either his strength or his vulnerability.

She just responds to him.

And that becomes a challenge to him as well, because she challenges him.

She tells him things he doesn't want to hear.

She gives him hard truths.

She reorients his mind around the way he thinks things are and the way that they really should be.

And

that is a push-pull in the show about whether or not Tony will be able to handle therapy that always exists as well.

I thought that moment in particular, when they're talking about the symbolism of the waterfowl in his dream, and he, you know, he's guessing, oh, like this because it represents the ducks and the ducks to me represent my fear of like my family getting hurt.

I don't necessarily believe that.

Like, that's what he's actually afraid of.

It feels like the kind of thing that in that moment feels nice to say, but the fact that it's just kind of hanging in the air, whether that's true or not, hanging in the air, whether that's something to push or not, I have zero doubt that those kinds of ideas are going to be interrogated.

That Tony is a character in Therapy and Without who's just going to be kind of pushed in these ways in terms of like, what do you actually believe?

And are those things even remotely true within the world of this show?

One thing I want to say about the experience of watching The Sopranos for the first time in 2025

is,

I'm gonna I'm gonna hype up what we do.

I could listen to Van, who has watched the whole series and thought about it for years and years.

I could listen to him talk about this show forever.

Amen.

The fact that there is

a wealth of thoughtful commentary, I was I was dipping a bit into uh Alan Seppenwal and Matt Ziller Seitz's The Soprano Sessions book, which is an incredible read, trying to like dodge spoilers and keep it to just them talking about these episodes, but incredible, informative read that exists.

I watched a little bit of a like a Peter Bogdanovich interview with David Chase, like in the Sopranos kitchen talking, like the caliber of coverage and thought and analysis that exists around this show

is just an extra

experience on top of just the experience of watching the show.

And all of that is waiting for you.

And it you can

opt in or opt out you can watch things however you want to watch it is always my preference to watch things while listening to people that I like respect and admire talk about it and

do I align with them or do I disagree with them and how it it deepens your understanding that's true of a lot of the shows that we covered here breaking bad madmen um lost and and not to get like too much on the soapbox but um you know alan seppomwall just lost his job at the rolling at rolling stone the tv critics across the board are getting let go because we are losing this art form of the people who know this industry inside and out and have access to the people who make it and can

give you the depth of history behind the choices that are made here.

What did David Chase work on before he worked on the Sopranos?

What came before the Sopranos that informed the Sopranos?

All of that context is so interesting and

you need it.

And so it's why I rail against binge culture.

It's why I think week to week is so important, why I think it's important to take TV seriously.

And why I'm so excited for all the Sopranos,

you know, podcasts and books and whatever that I can get my hands on in order to enrich the experience.

And like getting to talk to you guys about it is a huge part of that for me.

I think one of the most enjoyable parts about doing this whole process, Joe, with these hooked shows, which have all been kind of like all-timer shows.

Right.

They feel

because of all that supplementary material and because of the distance from when they originally aired, like there is a mythological quality to the Sopranos that is something like, as you're saying, you could just spend an endless amount of time trying to get your arms around, not just like in the moment theorizing, but the contextualizing and deep dives and like attempts to grasp at a piece of art.

And the fact that something like that can not just exist in the moment, but continue to exist in the form of those books and that criticism and podcasts and everything else, like it's still there.

And I think part of the trouble with the binge culture is not just that it exists, but it's like separating your mind from the idea of this is the thing I do to unwind at night, from this is the thing that I can continue to engage in in all these other ways, regardless of when that writing or that analysis came out.

Like that stuff is there to binge too for anyone who cares to do it.

And I hope people do that with shows that they're digging back into.

Like, I know that's something that I love doing after finishing a show, especially is like digging back into the stuff that people were processing in real time.

I worry that they don't, though.

Yeah.

I mean,

when the binge model first came out, it was so novel that I was like, oh, interesting.

And then I realized something that

has to accompany television.

Well, two things.

Detail and ritual.

Binge culture robs you of detail because it's too much content at once.

So whereas Game of Thrones will come on and then we would legitimately on Twitter for the next couple of days, three, four days, talk about one or two scenes.

You can't do that when something is really, when you binge it too much because there's so much thrown at you at one time.

You don't know how to really contextualize and talk about it.

You're trying to talk about the entire thing because you got it all.

And then just ritual, man, we watching it together.

When I think about watching TV when I was a kid, I watched cartoons with my sister.

I watched Westerns and Bonanza and stuff like that with my dad.

And then I watched Dynasty with my mom.

And, you know, what was the one with the lady?

And she got pregnant and everybody freaked out.

She was a lawyer.

No, she wasn't a lawyer.

She was on TV.

Remember this movie?

This show?

My mom used to love the show.

The lady, she got pregnant on the show, and the whole world flipped out.

And the vice president was mad at her.

What is this?

Murphy Brown.

Murphy Brown.

Like Murphy Brown.

You say ritual.

When I think about that aspect of it, I think about community.

It's the same thing.

Ritual, like it's Sunday night.

We're going to watch the Sopranos, but also I'm going to watch it with these people.

And you binge culture absolutely obliterates that because we're all watching it at different paces.

And then that thing that you referenced earlier, Van, the sort of like hyper-vigilant, toxic spoiler culture.

Like, you can spoil the Sopranos for me.

It's my fault that I haven't watched it until 2025.

I'm not that stressed about it, but we're past the statute of limitations.

So you like, don't you have to be an asshole.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to do it.

But you know what?

I'm not worried about you.

In community with you guys, because there's things that I want you to be amazed by.

Right.

And so that idea of sharing story together at the same time

is so such an important part of television because you can sit in a movie theater and watch a movie with someone, but like you've got weeks or months, you know, and this is why we loved covering like the pit or severance or whatever it is, like things that, or even as I've talked about on multiple podcasts now, The Summer I Turn Pretty, like that was a week to week release and everyone lost their marbles over it.

I just watched a video where Jennifer Lawrence was talking about her obsession with The Summer I Turn Pretty.

Like, but it's such a rarity to have that community and that monoculture and it really is important.

And so

that's.

Something that I think is precious about television that I, that I want to see us like all re-embrace about television.

Well, and it's what eventizes it too, whether it's the sense of community, whether it's that wait and that anticipation for the next episode, as opposed to binging it.

There's also something from the ritual standpoint about watching a show with actual opening credits.

Like every show now, it's like it's either too much or not enough.

There's so many shows that are just kind of like, here's five seconds of an image and here's the title card.

And now we're going to the show.

I understand that, especially in a binging era, but with something like The Sopranos, I want 90 seconds to

kind of ease into the world and understand the mental space that this show wants me to be in.

And that's a complicated thing.

And like some shows do it better than others with those themes.

But this was one where I was really appreciative of just like, let's just vibe check for a minute.

Do you know who's the villain behind that?

The skip intro button.

That's really the villain.

Yeah, I had to do it for Peacemaker this year, though.

All right, now.

Y'all dance a little too, it's a little too whimsical.

Let's get to the shit.

All right, anything else you want to say about The Sopranos?

A massive piece of puff culture.

Nah.

Last thing I'll say before Rob goes, like, just, I'm so, I'm so happy for you guys.

I don't, a lot of times when people are just watching something, you go, I wish I was you.

I don't, because it would rob me of so many things that happened in the last 26 years.

But I do envy you.

Envy you for getting able to experience all of this stuff for the first time.

That's fucking amazing.

I can't wait to do it.

Needless to say, I'm very hooked on this show.

We're just going to have to find time for everything we're trying to cover, Joe, and also watching Lost and also watching this.

I have one nit to pick as far as the college episode itself.

The guy that Tony is chasing after, Fabian Petrullio, aka Fred Peters, just about the worst witness protection disguise I've ever seen.

Like he, he's just like fully Clark Kented.

I'm just going to put on the glasses and assume that I'm safe here.

You're not that far away.

Like you're still in New England.

That's the fucking thing.

That's my thing.

Why don't you put some distance?

You know what I'm saying?

Put a distance or get a haircut.

If you're in Tacoma, you're never going to run into Tony.

Not going to see him.

Guess what?

Come out to the coast.

Have a fight.

Go out there, man.

Try Boise.

He just wanted to, he wanted to dip into Jersey and AC every now and again.

It's true.

So that's what ended up.

His attachments got him killed.

You know what witness protection

movie I love is?

My Blue Heaven.

That's my favorite one.

It's not even close.

I love My Blue Heaven.

The movie, I contend right now, the movie is erased in Ringer culture.

It is one of the best mob movies ever made.

It's a comedy.

It's fantastic.

Yeah.

I love it.

Steve Martin in the Steve Martinist-ness of all time.

Love that movie.

Big accent work, big hair work.

Just a lot is going on.

Big fan.

All right.

Well, that has been our hooked miniseries.

That has been the Sopranos finale.

We have now seen it.

We will be back for task coverage, for slow horses horses coverage,

um, and a bunch of other stuff that's coming.

Uh, Van,

anything you want to say before you go?

Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you, Van.

No problem.

I had a lot of fun, guys.

Appreciate it.

All right.

Bye.