'Slow Horses' Season 5 Episodes 3-5 Breakdown With Alan Sepinwall

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Speaker 3 Hello, welcome back to the Press to Use TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

Speaker 3 Rob Mahoney is still a bit ill, plus tied up in a lot of NBA preseason stuff, but we have the great Alan Seppamal here to talk about slow horses. Alan, how are you doing?

Speaker 4 Hey, Joanna, what's going on?

Speaker 3 Oh my God, I'm so happy you're here. Our listeners have been clamoring for slow horses content.
They've been, we've had to skip the last couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 And all I've heard from our listeners is, where is that Slow Horses podcast? So here we are to talk about episode five of Slow Horses, a show that you really like, right?

Speaker 3 And we're also going to do just at the end a little bit of sort of the state of Apple TV. Sort of, they've announced some proposed changes, some proposed plans.

Speaker 3 And so Alan is here to lend his TV expertise to that. Alan Sepimwal, I'm assuming anyone who listens to a show called the Breast East TV podcast knows who Alan Sepenwal is.

Speaker 3 But if you don't, Alan Seppenwal is my favorite TV critic,

Speaker 3 has written books about the OC, the Sopranos. Like, you know, you're working on a, can we say what book you're working on right now or is that a secret?

Speaker 4 I'm working on two books right now. I've got a biography of Rod Serling, the creator of the Twilight Zone, that's coming out next year.

Speaker 4 And then for the year after that, I'm doing a book about the wire for the 25th anniversary. That's right.

Speaker 3 I forgot about the wire one. I knew about the Twilight Zone.
Yeah. Okay.
So anyway, Alan knows everything about television. And a lot of what I know about television, I learned from Alan Seppenwald.

Speaker 3 So we have an absolute expert here to talk to us about Slow Horses. I could not be more thrilled.

Speaker 3 Rob will be back for the finale for episode six next week. And also just sort of so folks know what's coming next, we wrapped up Task.

Speaker 3 We're wrapping up Slow Horses, but Pluribus, speaking of Apple TV,

Speaker 3 the new series that Ellen and I cannot talk about, even though I might have shared some of Alan's opinions about that show.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you put my thoughts out on the street there, Joanne.

Speaker 3 I did. It wasn't great of me.
It wasn't very cool of me, but I did do that. But we can't really, there's a lot of, can't really talk about that show very much, but it's awesome.

Speaker 3 And it premieres November 7th. And Rob and I will be covering that show.
So that is sort of what is coming up on the feed. Spoiler warning, I guess, up through episode five of Slow Horses.

Speaker 3 Though Alan, Alan has seen the finale, but Alan is like not going to talk about the finale other than, you know.

Speaker 4 I know it exists. I'm not going to tell you like if people live, die, come back, whatever.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Alan, step and wall. Yes.
What do you think of Slow Horses as a series so far? And then

Speaker 3 knowing that this is the last season with a showrunner Will Smith, are you concerned at all about the future of Slow Horses after this season?

Speaker 4 It's always hard to say because like this is not a show where I've hung out in the writer's room or visited the set or anything like that

Speaker 4 because they're across an ocean for me.

Speaker 4 I will say, as someone who read the first few books of the series, but I've not read the one that this season is based on, it always felt to me like they were doing such a good job of being relatively faithful to the books.

Speaker 4 And I imagine we'll be talking today about one of the big deviations from this one, that like

Speaker 4 it's my guess is there's an architecture in place in order to go forward. And the source material that Mick Heron wrote gives them enough of a roadmap that they should be in good shape.

Speaker 4 you know, once Will is gone. But this is a show.
It's one of my favorites and certainly one of the most reliable pleasures of the last few years that they come out every year

Speaker 4 at the same time

Speaker 4 with episodes. They usually already have a trailer for the next season.
Like, you know, how is this even possible in this, the year of Our Lord 2025?

Speaker 3 Is this a show

Speaker 3 where, and, you know, as a TV critic, you usually watch shows in advance so you can give a reliable, you know, critique of the season when you put out your review.

Speaker 3 Is this a show that you've always watched in sort of a binge-like structure?

Speaker 4 Yes, it is. And in fact, it's funny.
This season, I like,

Speaker 4 I was still, I was still working at Rolling Stone when I got the episodes and I'm watching them. And I said to my editor, like, I really like this show.
Maybe I should start recapping it.

Speaker 4 And their thought was, if we had not recapped the previous seasons, like, we wouldn't, you know, it's not worth it to jump in in season five.

Speaker 4 And so at that point, I'm like, okay, I will just watch this for pleasure. I'm not going to take any notes or anything.

Speaker 4 And then what happened was I was no longer working at Rolling Stone and I'm running like my own What's Ellen watching newsletter. And I thought, oh, I can do whatever I want.

Speaker 4 I will start recapping Slow Horses. So then I went back and I re-watched all of the episodes so that I could take good notes in order to write these recaps.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I don't have a lot of time to do that these days, to watch things more than once. And it was so good and so pleasurable.

Speaker 4 And in some cases, because I knew what was coming, you know, like the thing with the paint can, to be able to like go into that scene knowing where it was going to go and and seeing it unfold was really just an enormous amount of pleasure for me.

Speaker 3 I will say that is like a TV moment that I really regret that we didn't get to record an instant reaction to that sort of incredible conclusion to that setup.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, you've already tipped that you're enjoying season five, but I'm curious, like, how does season five stack up to the other seasons for you?

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 is there ever a moment, it sounds like not, but is there ever a moment where this ever feels like repetitive? We're moving.

Speaker 3 The only reason I say that is because, you know, something that Will Smith likes to say and uh Gary Ollman likes to say is that the thing they love about Jackson Lamb is that he doesn't change as a character.

Speaker 3 They're like, the point of television is to arc a character, but these characters don't change very much. And we like that about it.
And I think plenty of people like it about it.

Speaker 3 It's a reason people come back to procedurals again and again. There is something like comforting about that.

Speaker 3 But I'm curious, in an age of prestige television where we're used to people having massive arcs or

Speaker 3 setups changing wildly. Does the here the slow horses are to fuck it up again, but somehow come out on top by the end of the season, is that formula like going to forever work?

Speaker 3 Is it currently working? How do you feel about it?

Speaker 4 It's currently working. I mean, I haven't like gone back and studied season by season.
I do feel like there are some years I have liked more than others.

Speaker 4 I think probably last season with River and his dad and all of that, there's some very good stuff in there, but I would say as a whole, I didn't necessarily love it as much.

Speaker 4 This season felt to me like, okay, this is the pure, unfiltered slow horses. This is exactly what I want.
And they're leaning into certain things.

Speaker 4 Like it's the season of Roddy Hoe and that has been so funny. It's been the season of Shirley.
Like they're just really doing a lot of stuff and they're embracing the fact that.

Speaker 4 River Kartwright kind of sucks. Like it's been, and we can talk about that too, but I've really liked this year a lot.
It's among my favorite of the show.

Speaker 4 In terms of like whether it's too formulaic or too repetitive, I mean, this is what TV used to be.

Speaker 4 It wasn't necessarily like we're going to do a six-episode season, but it was still, like you said, procedurals. You know, Columbo never changed.

Speaker 4 A lot of characters who are great characters who still hold up to this day don't change very much. And this is a more serialized form of storytelling than that.

Speaker 4 I do think there's pleasure to be gained there.

Speaker 4 And I do think that even if Lamb, for the most part, doesn't change, there are characters around him who do and who go through enough evolutions that that's interesting.

Speaker 4 And you can certainly step back and say at a certain point, well, if Slough House has this many successes in a row,

Speaker 4 at a certain point, wouldn't the park like take them seriously or take some of them back? And without spoiling what happens in the finale, I will say the finale does address this very question.

Speaker 4 And it does it in an interesting way that I thought, okay, yeah, I buy that. So even the show itself is aware that like it has to be really careful with this.

Speaker 3 Well, I do want to come back to that river question because I know that's something you wanted to talk about. But I would say that, you know, because we didn't have a chance to cover episode three,

Speaker 3 something that was teased by the writers was we would learn more about Jackson Lamb's backstory this season.

Speaker 3 And we do get this monologue that Gary Oldman gives in episode three about, you know, he's talking about a Joe he once knew, but it's obviously himself.

Speaker 3 And he's using it as a sort of distraction tactic, but it reads as very sincere. And so even though we don't, you know, it's not like Jackson Lamb got a new apartment or a new girlfriend or whatever.

Speaker 3 He's like, he's, he's the same, but we know more.

Speaker 3 Every season we peel back another layer on this particularly stinking onion and like know a bit more about how he got the way that he is.

Speaker 3 And I think that is an interesting approach to that idea of like, yeah, Columbo doesn't argue, Jessica Fletcher doesn't change.

Speaker 3 Like, you know, we, we, we stay the same, but we, the audience, see them maybe in a different light because we want more information.

Speaker 4 No, I absolutely agree with that.

Speaker 4 And that's, I mean, that scene is incredible because that's the thing that you can do with Gary Oldman, but the thing you can also do with this show, which is this is a show where you can do the Rube Goldberg slapstick of the paint can falling, but you can also do the stuff last season with River dealing with his granddad's dementia.

Speaker 4 Like it can be, there are, they're idiots, but there are real stakes to it. And, you know, when

Speaker 4 Marcus dies at the end of last season, that's both sort of a scary, intense moment, but also a sad moment. And it can be in a show that also has Roddy Hoe, Roddy Hoeing it up all over the place.

Speaker 4 So, and Gary Oldman in particular, he can do both. He can be, you know, he can weaponize a fart and do that monologue in the same episode.
Like he's,

Speaker 4 you know, he's one of our best.

Speaker 3 Rob and I had talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the season. Jack Louden, who has recently been cast as Mr.

Speaker 3 Darcy, like is very cool, is married to Sercia Ronin, like all this sort of stuff like that, is like leading man sort of charisma and looks and all this sort of stuff like that and i love that he's willing to show up and be an absolute idiot on this show and i love that especially this season which feels in contrast to last season, which I agree with you was, it wasn't our favorite season either, where River is sort of isolated off on his own ice flow of a story and is doing, you know, is still fucking up, but doing sort of somewhat more heroic content, running around in like this very nice black coat.

Speaker 3 Here he's wearing a dorky track suit because he got paint all over his clothing.

Speaker 3 Do you feel, you were sort of raised to me before we started recording, like this idea that he's even more bumbling this season and whether or not that's landing with some people or how do you feel about it?

Speaker 3 What's your sense?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I've got a friend who, you know, works in television and likes the show, but wrote to me and said, like, I'm really starting to worry they're making River too much of an idiot.

Speaker 4 And I kind of, I want to see some growth there. and I want to see like him and Lamb have more of a relationship.
And my response is, I don't think that's what the show is.

Speaker 4 I think the show, all the people in Slough House are there for a reason.

Speaker 4 Like even Louisa, who is probably the most like purely competent and level-headed person, you know, and we don't know whether or not she's going to come back. Louisa, like, she really messed up.

Speaker 4 You know, we know her backstory. River, we saw how he messed up.
And even if he was set up to do it by Taverner and by Spider, he still wildly overreacted to this. And he does this all the time.

Speaker 4 He does. And he's very headstrong.
And because he looks like Jack Loudon, and because his grandfather is his grandfather,

Speaker 4 he thinks he's James Bond. And he is not James Bond.
You know, he's Mr. Bean or whatever.
He is

Speaker 4 Johnny English, whatever the comparable, you know, more modern English version of that is.

Speaker 4 And he thinks he's cool. And every now and then he is cool.
And every now and then he does something good. But he's there because he's a screw-up.
And they're all there because they're screw-ups.

Speaker 4 And Lamb, for all of his problems and all of his anti-social behavior you know and sometimes he says insulting things just to manipulate people but for the most part when lamb assesses someone lamb is right you know earlier this year he said shirley is my only functioning joe and we've seen it like shirley is the only one who knows what she's doing throughout this year among his underlings so when lamb refuses to trust river There's a reason for that.

Speaker 4 And it's not because like he's trying to bring the best out of him or because he's mean. It's because, no, River is bad at this.
And River, you know,

Speaker 4 helped create the circumstances under which, you know, Gimbal died by paint can.

Speaker 3 First of all, that is slight.

Speaker 3 I think Catherine Standish erasure, Catherine is doing, she's not a Joe, but like she's, she's always competent, far more competent than anyone gives her credit, which I really love.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and she throws the water bottle that saves Jeffrey. So she, yeah, I would do not want to disrespect Catherine.
I just mean in terms of like the field agent-y type people.

Speaker 3 Totally. And I think,

Speaker 3 I love, I love your assessment. I I think River Cartwright has always been a handsome Nepo baby.

Speaker 3 And it's been harder for us to understand that because of the scenes that he shared with Jonathan Price and because Louis, you know, if you, if you strip Jonathan Price out of the show, though he gets to show up on the other side of the phone in this episode, and you take Louisa away, like you take these sort of like competent characters around River away, I feel like the fact that he actually fits in with the Ko's and the Shirleys becomes more obvious.

Speaker 3 And that, so I do, I agree. I don't think he's any less competent.
He just doesn't have the structure around him that usually makes him look a bit more competent than he is, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, I mean, he like he sort of rises or falls to the level of his surroundings to a degree. Yeah.

Speaker 3 On the Louisa front, this is, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm raising this on behalf of Rob because Louisa is Rob's favorite.

Speaker 3 And when she left at the beginning of the season, we were like, surely she'll be back by season episode three or something like that. But like, no, Louisa.

Speaker 3 She's still in the main credits for the show. There's no announcement that this character has left the show.

Speaker 3 I don't need you to spoil anything about the finale, but just sort of like, I will just say, are you missing that character this season? Or how do you feel about her absence?

Speaker 4 I really like Louisa a lot as a character.

Speaker 4 I do miss her in the sense that, again, she's good and the actress is very good in the role.

Speaker 4 But I do think that like there is some value to be gained in basically like it's a very small team this year. They're sort of, they're outmanned more than usual.
And they all kind of suck.

Speaker 4 And so I think like if you had the level-headed person in there with everybody else, I don't know that the story would be playing out the way that it is.

Speaker 4 And I do remember when the pit happened earlier this year and Dr. Robbie sends Collins home.
Yeah. And then the mass casualty happens, you keep saying, oh, obviously Collins is going to come back.

Speaker 4 She's going to show up and save the day and no and now she's not even on the show never to return at all to the show and again i'm not going to spoil whether or not louisa is in the finale but i'm just saying like there is precedent for this sort of thing

Speaker 4 like even in this year of television i do have um

Speaker 3 without having actually any finale information i do i will say for the book readers i know i have seen allusions to

Speaker 3 there's a theory that they're using her character in the way that they use another character and that she will come back in the way that another character did, or something like that.

Speaker 3 So, there's hope for the Louisa lovers out there, but

Speaker 3 I personally definitely miss her. And I was sort of shocked that she was taken out of the story because I haven't read all the way through London Rules, but I've read,

Speaker 3 you know, I've been trying to like keep pace with the show with the book, and she's in it. So, you know, they're doing something different and they haven't announced that the actress is leaving.

Speaker 3 So, I just have some questions about that.

Speaker 4 Look, I'm still waiting for Olivia Cook to come back.

Speaker 4 So yeah.

Speaker 3 She's she's in Westeros. Can't help her.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Episode five circus. I want to check.
Okay. I want to check him out with you about Ko,

Speaker 3 who just helped kill a guy and gets to do a lot of business with Cherries in this episode.

Speaker 3 He's working for you as a camera. I love Tom Brooke.
I loved him since. Yes.
You know, he showed up on Sherlock. Like he's, he's just been around in British television for a really long time.

Speaker 3 I'm a big fan of his. When he got cast last season, I was really excited.
And I've been kind of waiting for Ko to emerge from the shadows as a real character.

Speaker 3 I think pairing him with River in this season has been extremely good. And I think the stuff with them in the car or Jackson assessing his sort of post-coital glow of

Speaker 3 after having caused a death,

Speaker 3 if we want to put it that way, absolutely delighted me.

Speaker 3 How are you feeling about Ko?

Speaker 4 Oh, I love him.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, he's just, like you say, Tom Brooke has such an interesting like look yes like he just and screen presence and especially when he's playing a character that is this unhinged and is meant to creep everyone around him out as much as he does it's just it's a perfect kind of match of actor and character he's really funny and river just being completely unnerved like why why have they paired me with this just absolute lunatic yeah you know who i want to jump out of my skin every time i'm around him and he's pulling out push knives and he's doing all of the things and yet he's also i mean it's sort of this this slow horses thing where all of them are good at one thing at least you know ho is a complete idiot with people but he's a genius with computers ko is right about the destabilization plan he's been talking about this for weeks and it took forever for the others to finally start paying attention to it but at the same time like he clearly has anesthetized whatever emotions he ever had in this world.

Speaker 4 And so he's completely untroubled by the fact that, you know, he helped cause Gimbal's death. And, you know, he's enjoying some cherries and he's not going to give River his change for it.

Speaker 4 And that's, that's delightful.

Speaker 3 I think also, yeah, in addition to sort of being quicker on the uptake about the destabilization, I also deeply enjoy every single psychological profile that he has crafted for the people around him.

Speaker 3 Like, this is something that he does, right? Is he like reads River to filth, essentially. And he's just sort of like, but this is who you are.

Speaker 3 Don't you see? Doesn't everyone see? And that's that's also, I think, underlining the River Cartwright fuck up,

Speaker 3 you know, storyline this season is just sort of co-speaking truth about, which Louisa has done in the past as well, about Rivers, like many hang-ups. And it's really fun.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I think it, it helps to,

Speaker 4 A, let the other

Speaker 4 horses be right about things, but also like.

Speaker 4 He's not the only one doing this. Shirley did this to him when they were like at the nightclub.
Lamb does it to him all the time.

Speaker 4 So it's just, it's a fun thing where, again, you take the guy who is coded as the leading man and you just keep humbling him over and over and over again.

Speaker 4 And he does have, you know, moments of genuine emotion, not so much this season. This season, he's just, you know, the pretty fool.
And that's great.

Speaker 4 And, you know, we'll see what next year brings for him.

Speaker 3 Is

Speaker 3 actively killing someone or passively, if you prefer, with the paint can,

Speaker 3 is being as involved in this death as they are a step too far for the slow horses, fuck it up again or does this just feel completely par for the chorus for you

Speaker 4 I honestly I feel more troubled by like Ho having broken into the MI5 systems and leaving them as vulnerable as they are up through the end of this episode like a lot of the time you watch the show and you say, well,

Speaker 4 how are these people going to avoid getting fired? Or, you know, on almost any kind of professional drama, people will do things and you're like, well, there's no way they can come back from that.

Speaker 4 And then the show will contort itself and come up with an excuse for them to people to keep working together. I feel like Ho has already been banished to Sloughhouse and now he has confessed to this.

Speaker 4 Like, really, would Taverner ever let him be in any way affiliated with MI5 again?

Speaker 4 I won't say how they address this or if they address this in a finale, but like, that's a thing I've been asking for a while. Compared to that, Ko and Gimbal feels kind of small potatoes.

Speaker 4 Like, and maybe it's, maybe it's just because I kind of, you know, was very happy when the paint can fell on Gimbal. Like, that was not a...

Speaker 4 That was not.

Speaker 4 no good was going to come of Gimbal continuing to be alive. So,

Speaker 3 um, on the, you know, we already mentioned David, Jonathan Bryce's character, you know, had a, had a big storyline last season, was like deeply involved in

Speaker 3 the main plot line, uh, was out in the field, not just in his idyllic country home, but like sort of out in the field with Catherine and all this sort of stuff like that.

Speaker 3 This season relegated to sort of on the other side of the phone cameo level so far. I have to say, though, maybe it's just because I just recently watched

Speaker 3 what was the Netflix movie based on the Richard Awesome books?

Speaker 4 Tuesday Murder Club, where he's playing basically the same guy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I'm just like, actually, I would never not listen to the dementia ramblings of Jonathan Price because he's always right.

Speaker 3 When he, when he says to River, you know, basically like the bees, the honey trap, no, they do it again. To me, that's telling me Tara is there to actively honey trap Claude.

Speaker 3 And then the, I think this is, this is the most interesting thing that happens in this episode is the like Tara reveal. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But given that David says that so early in the episode, and then I feel like we're with him on that, I feel like then it was almost treated as like a review.

Speaker 3 It was like prolonged, like drawn out of her asking sort of like, well, how are you going to track me? Well, this, that, and the other thing.

Speaker 3 And then it just becomes this, my my beloved emma flight has it up again she definitely belongs in slough house um claude is it up again he belongs nowhere near the service but um but do you know what i mean it felt like it was being treated as a surprise when i feel like they tipped it a little early in the episode what do you think I mean, it's an interesting scene because I remember watching that and it's always the cliche of that kind of character.

Speaker 4 And it's the same one that he does in Tuesday Murder Club where it's like, you can never tell if they're being genuinely lucid and and insightful, or if like they're talking about something they watched on television, you know, two minutes ago.

Speaker 4 And, and River interprets the conversation as the latter.

Speaker 4 And so like, you can certainly be inclined to go with him on that. And it's like, you start watching the scene, oh, he's talking about honey traps.

Speaker 4 And then you come out of it like, no, no, River wanted to hear something and then realized like he was trying too hard.

Speaker 4 And so then you can push it away.

Speaker 4 And I think the actress playing Tara is pretty convincing when she's playing you know oh no they forced me they forced me please save me claude whelan please save me claude whelen and god what an what an idiot he is i'm trying to find where what the line is lamb says you should bring forward your resignation before you die of shame working for that

Speaker 3 love to be called a that by jackson lamb yeah yes um

Speaker 3 and then we get molly who has been you know central to the show

Speaker 3 shoved aside shoved out of the service, essentially, that we find out inside of this episode, but we do get to see her.

Speaker 3 Again, I think it is really interesting the way in which this show will

Speaker 3 shuffle the deck on characters, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 In terms of like not just turnover, but sort of move someone to the side and still use them, but sort of downgrade their status inside of the show, but not just like cut that actor loose and we never see them again.

Speaker 3 Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 Which is different from like a lot of other shows when they say like, well, we wouldn't keep this character around just to show up for a scene we just wouldn't use them do you know yeah and i mean and there are definitely people from sloughhouse itself who have either died or just they're not around anymore but i do like that they've they keep their options open and so i'm trying to remember the actor's name the guy from uh all creatures great and small who like who came back this year he used to be the defense man

Speaker 4 who plays peter judd yeah yeah yeah peter judd yeah so peter judd comes back and he's doing a new job and tavertner is once again like exasperated having to deal with this moron but it's in a different context and so I think they kind of

Speaker 4 both the people who make the show but I'm assuming you know Judd comes back in the book as well like Mick Heron kind of understands this is a relatively insular world and even if people take different jobs they're still they're getting the other job because of their original affiliation you know with MI5 or the government.

Speaker 4 And so therefore, they're going to cross paths again and again.

Speaker 3 Their access and there is, yeah, there's just something about being in that echelon of the world that you don't necessarily ever leave it.

Speaker 3 You just move to a different part of it, but you still have access to it. Yeah.
And it does, it makes the world feel

Speaker 3 real and populated, right? That just like Amali doesn't disappear or Peter Judd doesn't disappear. We miss Spider, we miss Min Harper, we miss Marcus.

Speaker 3 Like those people are dead, but there are people who are just still around.

Speaker 3 And I hope for you that Olivia Cook is one of those people. That I would love that for you.

Speaker 4 Well, I mean,

Speaker 4 like, it's treated as a mystery that they're going to come back to in the first season, and then they just don't. So, and you know, unfortunately, she is very, very busy.

Speaker 3 Did you watch the

Speaker 3 Robin Wright thing that she did?

Speaker 4 I did. I thought she was,

Speaker 4 it's, it's really not my jam in terms of like that genre, and yet I was kind of engaged with it for quite a while.

Speaker 4 The problem is it's, it, it keeps going back and forth between like who is the bad guy in this situation.

Speaker 4 And at a certain point, they really need to get shit or get off the pot and I think like both first they play one card too soon and then they kind of try to backtrack it and you know are hedging their bets so then by the time you get to the end it was frustrating at the end but Cook is really good and Wright is you know Robin Wright yeah but it's dumb Olivia Cook is always good I mean yeah but it's it's a

Speaker 3 I felt like I knew exactly what that show was. And there's definitely a time that you want to watch exactly that show.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 yeah and it's funny because it's like it's a dumb beach read and yet i think they debuted it in like right after the summer yeah so yeah um

Speaker 3 all right the libyan terrorist angle that we have oh boy oh boy which i wrote in my notes how back to the future so in the book These are, it's a North Korean sort of

Speaker 3 contingent of people, right?

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 they opted not to go with that. I have not seen any interviews of them addressing sort of exactly why they made that change.
But I think after

Speaker 3 a season of a very specific big bad in Hugo Wielding's character, how are you feeling about this like fairly stereotypical and anonymized group of Libyan terrorists outside of Tara, who is like her own thing and interesting, but we've got these just guys in a van.

Speaker 3 And especially when you think about season one, which was like a group of guys who wind up in a van, but we spent enough time with them where we we like really understood a bit more about their, they've established some like, I have some reservations about what we're doing, but I don't feel like we spent enough time with these guys, perhaps because they were trying to hide the ball on Terra, or I don't know why.

Speaker 3 Yeah. That then they just seem like we cut back to them in whatever van or parking lot or whatever they're plotting.
And I just don't feel like I know them or care about them.

Speaker 3 And so then they just become this like kind of homogenized stereotype thing that I feel a little weird about, you know?

Speaker 4 I, I, I'm 100% on board with you with with all of that.

Speaker 4 Like when I take pretty detailed notes when I watch episodes of shows, and I try to either, if I know the character's name, I refer to them by the character name, or I try to like figure out, okay, this guy's the drawer, this guy's the leader, this guy's whatever.

Speaker 4 And like, I think six different times I've changed my mind on, wait, this guy's the leader, no, this guy's the leader, this guy like doesn't want to be there. Oh, no, wait, maybe he does.

Speaker 4 Like, it's just, it's very, it's so vague who they're supposed to be that I'm kind of grasping at straws. And there's stuff that happens in the finale where like one person does something.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, that seems the complete opposite of what little I felt I understood about them previously.

Speaker 4 And when we've seen these guys in the van, it's really, it's definitely the one big misstep with this season is how generic and interchangeable and vague these guys are.

Speaker 3 I think it's interesting.

Speaker 3 Again, I haven't seen the finale, so I don't know how this all wraps up, but I, you know, I've been sort of dipping into the subreddits about this and I try to sort of like see what I can see how the book readers are feeling.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? Even if I don't have the information they have, like, how are they enjoying these significant changes?

Speaker 3 And I do not pretend to know enough about geopolitics to comment with any authority on this, but there seems to be some objection to swapping Libya for North Korea in that there's something about North Korea's relationship with England versus Libya's relationship with England that makes the story make more sense to the book readers if it's North Korea.

Speaker 3 And again, I'm just introducing without knowing what I'm talking about. So you can press HTV at spotify.com if you do know like whether or not we should object to this.
But

Speaker 3 I just think it's interesting to make this significant choice.

Speaker 3 And I am very curious to hear if they like have any reason why they want to share why they made that choice, you know?

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's just, there's such a long history in Western entertainment of like generic Middle Eastern like terrorists and bad guys.

Speaker 4 And it it can be done interestingly and it can be done with nuance but like unless you're gonna do that you really kind of have to pick a different bad guy because like the audience is just so conditioned to assume oh this again exactly exactly um

Speaker 3 And then the last thing that I have on my agenda is that, you know, recently we just on this feed, we dipped into the world of Battlestar Galactica, which just made us really excited to spend more time with James Callis as Claude Whelan.

Speaker 3 And I just want to celebrate Claude's face when he finds out that Gimbal is dead. He's in the elevator.
Diana Tavener is like closer to the camera. He's over her shoulder.

Speaker 3 And we just get to silently watch his face as he celebrates and then tries to get it under control the news that Gimbal has died.

Speaker 3 And I just want, I mean, James Callis's face has always been one of the most enjoyable things to watch on television. Like

Speaker 3 Gaius Baltar is like an all-timer of a TV character. And so I feel so lucky that we could spend time with him here.
And I just wanted to not let that moment go unremarked upon.

Speaker 3 Is there anything you want to celebrate about Claude Whelan or James Callis in general?

Speaker 4 I mean, he's definitely, there's a lot of people from BSG who I wish had gone on to do more stuff because, you know, more high-profile stuff.

Speaker 4 Everyone's obviously still working, but because when you watch that show, they're all like given these, you know, 12-course meal, or they make 12-course meals out of the stuff that they're given.

Speaker 4 And, you know, most of them have not had that opportunity since then. This is maybe the most high-profile thing I've at least watched him in in those days.

Speaker 4 And he's having so much fun and he is so much fun to watch. And I'm really glad of it, even though he's an idiot.
I mean, let's look at it this way.

Speaker 4 Who are the people on this show who actually know what they're doing? There's Taverner. Diana.
Yeah. There's Lamb.

Speaker 4 Who is good at computers, but bad at everything else?

Speaker 3 Who?

Speaker 3 I always stump for Catherine, even though she's so like passive and so paralyzed by her own like issues uh the alcoholism all of that sort of stuff to be like highly effective but when she's used she's always on it but yeah in terms of like functioning at a high level it's Diana and Jack it's a two-hander it's the it's the people who meet on on benches near canals you know what I mean Because I mean, you were complaining, or you were lamenting before that Emma Flight keeps messing up.

Speaker 4 And that's, it's funny, because I remember when I recapped like the first or second episode of the show, I was sort of comparing her to Shirley because here's Shirley running around in like this 50-year-old windbreaker or whatever it is.

Speaker 4 And Flight shows up at the crime scene and she's in like this tailored suit and she's so cool and collected and she's dealing with this local idiot very well.

Speaker 4 And you're like, oh, Emma Flight's awesome. And then you keep watching the scenes like, no, no, she's just as bad as everybody else.
She just looks better than they do. Exactly.

Speaker 4 It's sort of, it's a river cartridge.

Speaker 3 Yeah, a female river cart, right? Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 3 All right, anything else you want to say about this episode specifically or still horses in general?

Speaker 4 No, this, I mean, this has been a really fun season. And like you, I'm curious what the show is like.
Without Will Smith, there will be a trailer at the end of this one for what they're doing next.

Speaker 3 Oh, they have a trailer on the finale? They do.

Speaker 4 They do have a trailer. Yeah, they work far enough ahead.
These are professionals we're dealing with. And so hopefully they will continue to be professionals even when he's gone.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Let us talk about Apple's sort of big quote-unquote rebranding effort that it seems that they're making.

Speaker 3 Before we get into sort of the idea of the self-described rebrand, I wanted to raise with you this question that, you know, Rob and I have grappled with.

Speaker 3 We've sort of talked to Bill about it a bit. This idea of what is Apple's current identity, pre-re-brand.

Speaker 3 So when you look at,

Speaker 3 let me give you my sense and then you let me know if you disagree. So we have some massive shows on Apple, right? There's Severance is a massive show this year.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't say the studio was a massive show, but it was like an awards-friendly show. So

Speaker 3 it burnishes their legacy in that way.

Speaker 3 Ted Lasso is the shambling corpse of Ted Lasso is coming back to Apple. So that, you know, that's a big thing for them.
Oh, boy. The morning show still exists.

Speaker 3 Your friends and neighbors, I don't think was quite what they wanted to be, nor was the Jason Momoa chief of war.

Speaker 3 And that is the narrative more than anything else is like Apple has a few of these sort of monoculture piercing moments and then

Speaker 3 just an avalanche of content that people aren't even aware exists. Yes.
You know, and we're very excited for Pluribus coming up. Like, I'm so excited excited for that show.

Speaker 3 I hope it permeates the way that Severance did. I'm sure that Apple is hoping it permeates the way that Severance did.

Speaker 3 It's a streaming platform that has been very sci-fi friendly. So, you know, a lot of like people love foundation or, you know, silo, or there's a number of other options on that front.

Speaker 3 But something that Bill pointed out when you were talking about this around your friends and neighbors is what Apple is often after is

Speaker 3 a tile they can put on their landing page that has a face you recognize. And you're like, Yes.
Oh, there's Vince Vaughan. Oh, there's John Hamm.
Oh, there's Seth Rogan.

Speaker 3 Click, you know, and I will watch this.

Speaker 3 But other than that, a thing that I know that those of us in sort of the coverage of TV community have lamented since the beginning is that Apple, were you there with us at that presentation that they gave at Apple HQ up in the Bay Area when they like first launched?

Speaker 3 Okay, that was one of the most bizarre events I've ever been to.

Speaker 3 But what it, what it, they bundled the announcement of Apple TV

Speaker 3 with like the launch of the Apple credit card or the launch of the Apple arcade. You know, it wasn't a TV event.
It was like a, here's our latest product event.

Speaker 3 And we've got Steven Spielberg and Oprah here, but like, but

Speaker 3 we don't know what TV is necessarily. And that's been sort of the question is like

Speaker 3 they

Speaker 3 were trying to disrupt TV.

Speaker 3 A thing that I remember them saying, I think Tim Cook said this at the presentation, was just sort of like, we're in everyone's pockets already on their devices, on their phones.

Speaker 3 So that's the advantage we have. We're already there.

Speaker 3 So that's going to be our way in. But I remember everyone who was there who was someone who writes about television for a living was like,

Speaker 3 but do you know about how we talk about TV or how we present TV or how we make sure people know what these shows are?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 that was a long ramble, but I'm just curious, like, what your assessment is of what Apple has been doing before we talk about what they plan to do next. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, it's interesting. They're obviously they're pouring just, you know, fortunes into these shows while also not necessarily, like you said, making people aware of them.

Speaker 4 Like, I have no idea what foundation costs, but like, unless you're like a really serious nerd, you don't know that the show exists.

Speaker 4 I wrote a thing a couple of weeks ago and once Ellen watching, it was called Shows That Don't Exist, where it's like these things that come with like big bona fides, and it's not that they're flops.

Speaker 4 It's just like no one really notices them and they go away.

Speaker 4 And it feels like I could have made that entire list just out of Apple shows. You know, they had a show from Alfonso Cuaron with Kate Blanchette.
That's

Speaker 3 the speed that did not really exist. I agree.

Speaker 4 Yeah, which I kind of liked, but it does not exist.

Speaker 4 And so, and they do a lot of these. And I mean, I think

Speaker 4 it's very comparable to what Amazon does, which is the, and it's funny that they've gotten rid of the plus and it's now both the device and the service are both going to be called Apple TV, because it does feel to me like when I will open up the device, they're not just trying to serve me Ted Lasso and the other originals.

Speaker 4 They're just trying to serve me everything. They want to be your one-stop shopping for any of the video content you're consuming.

Speaker 4 And so, like, if you happen to want to watch, you know, for all mankind or something, you can.

Speaker 4 But if you just want to use them to, you know, rent something else or add a subscription to HBO Max through Apple, they're happy to take your money that way too.

Speaker 4 And I feel like maybe because of that, they're not as keen to promote their stuff or they assume kind of like Netflix does that just people will open up the app and get served whatever it is Apple wants to show them.

Speaker 4 And that's really all they need to do. But it...
Some shows have penetrated, some have not. And so I don't necessarily know how well that's working for them.

Speaker 4 And I don't know how well it's going to work now that like they've,

Speaker 4 I worry that like changing the name and getting rid of the plus and and so now the device and the service have the same name,

Speaker 4 maybe it makes more sense or maybe it just confuses people even more. Right.

Speaker 3 I want

Speaker 3 something,

Speaker 3 this is purely anecdotal, my own experience. I do not know if this is a universal experience, but something I've noticed lately is that when I get, it used to be that I do own an Apple TV device.

Speaker 3 This is not an ad for Apple TV, but I do own an Apple TV device.

Speaker 3 And sometimes if I'm being profoundly lazy and I'm like looking for a movie I want, I can use the audio feature on my, on my remote and just say the name of the movie.

Speaker 3 And it used to be that they would pull up what platform it's streaming on that you can watch it on, right? So it's just sort of like, oh yeah, this is streaming on Hulu. This is streaming on HBO.

Speaker 3 Now what I've noticed, and maybe I just need to delete Pluto TV off my television, but they always funnel me to Pluto TV,

Speaker 3 which is an ad, you know, which is an ad supported platform, or I don't, I don't pay for Pluto TV that doesn't have ads.

Speaker 3 And so maybe I'll start watching Clueless on Pluto TV, which I did, you know, a couple of weeks ago. We were watching Clueless.
And then the ads kick in and you get so frustrated.

Speaker 3 And I think what they're hoping, this is my conspiracy theory. I think what they're hoping is that I will get frustrated, not take the next step and just go and rent it on Apple TV.
Yes.

Speaker 3 When it's streaming for free on Hulu and I have Hulu.

Speaker 3 And so that I just need to do that one Google search really to find out where is this streaming for one of the many platforms that I pay for already. So I don't have to rent it from Apple.

Speaker 3 But I'm like, I'm very suspicious about them funneling all these searches to Pluto. And that was sort of the best answer I could come up with.

Speaker 4 I have to assume that none of these like devices are ever going to allow for a just watch app. I know.

Speaker 4 That is always my best friend with this kind of thing.

Speaker 3 It's true. It's true.
Okay.

Speaker 3 And then the other, oh, the other question I wanted to ask you about,

Speaker 3 this is outside of what we're about to talk about in terms of the Apple rebranding is

Speaker 3 Presumed Innocent is an interesting thing they're about to do, which is sort of a franchise IP move that they haven't quite done yet, right?

Speaker 3 Because they're doing another season of Presumed Innocent, but it's a different, you know, because they've burned through the source material.

Speaker 3 So it's a different lead, you know, it's a different story, but we're still calling it Presumed Innocent. So that,

Speaker 3 you know, not that Rachel Brosnahan isn't a face that I would click on if I saw that tile on Apple TV, but like Jake Gyllenhaal was how they sold Presumed Innocent to people.

Speaker 3 And now I feel like they're using Presumed Innocent, perhaps that brand to sell the next season to people. And that's not something they've tried yet, but I'm interested what you think of that.

Speaker 4 I mean, there's definitely precedent for that, not on Apple, but other places. You know, Billy Bob Thornton, big name when they did Fargo season one.

Speaker 4 Patrick Wilson at the time, you know, was not nearly as big a name when they did season two, but by then it was Fargo. Right.
You know, and they could do that. So I'm curious.

Speaker 4 I'm curious about almost everything they do.

Speaker 4 And it feels like a lot of the time when something of theirs breaks through, other than maybe the morning show, which they just pour an ungodly amount of money in and just keep hiring famouses for, like, it just feels like when things for them break through, it's more by accident than like, oh, we obviously know this is going to be a big hit and we're going to push everything behind it.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I mean, we should say Slow Horses is a, you know, an award season and general like hit for them and a great show.
And like, you know, I love a lot of their shows.

Speaker 3 You know, it's not like they, it's not like Netflix where I get frustrated by the popularity of some of their content because it's so, they so clearly don't care.

Speaker 3 Often, not always, but often don't care and just throw anything at the wall to see what sticks. That's

Speaker 3 not what I'm doing.

Speaker 4 Even the thing, even the things I don't really like, you know, I didn't really, like you, I didn't really think your friends and neighbors worked, but it doesn't feel like Ryan Murphy level.

Speaker 3 Right, right, exactly. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 3 So it was reported in a number of places, but I'm drawing most of this from a Hollywood reporter piece on the quote new Apple TV, right?

Speaker 3 And the company has called the change. getting rid of the plus, which I'll miss.

Speaker 3 The company has called the change a quote vibrant new identity.

Speaker 3 And it comes with a number of other things that they're doing, which is bundling with Peacock, the great rebundling that is happening of all these streaming platforms.

Speaker 3 Slowly, but surely, we will go back to just the cable model.

Speaker 3 They made a deal with F1.

Speaker 3 You know, maybe we can thank Brad Pitt for that. I don't know, but they've decided to bring F1 to the Apple platform.
It's hugely, obviously, I don't

Speaker 3 thrive in the world of sports, but I know that F1 is hugely popular. So this is like a big get for them.
Right.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 then they're,

Speaker 3 they've already bumped up the price 30%.

Speaker 3 And then they're just trying to like sort of branch out to some of these other, get their tendrils out there into some of the other streaming platforms.

Speaker 4 so you know do all of these moves make sense to you as someone who has watched the the tv business or the streaming wars i i really i wish i under if i understood any of these businesses i feel like i would be doing just much better in my life than i am but it's i i don't know i think that leaning into sports is obviously that's the way that everybody's going because it's the one it's it used to be the thinking in the 2010s uh, was like, You've got to have a great original scripted show.

Speaker 4 That's your killer app, and then people will subscribe to this or subscribe to that, or even in the 2000s, if you're like some random out-of-the-way basic cable channel like AMC, if you get a madman, people will start watching you.

Speaker 4 And now it just feels like the audience is so divided that sports is the one thing you can still count on to draw people in.

Speaker 4 Even the people who are, you know, spending most of their time on TikTok or Instagram reels or whatever, I will still like watch an actual television program, even if it's a sports program.

Speaker 4 So I get that. I really don't know.

Speaker 3 I also, and again,

Speaker 3 I know I work for the Ringer, but as everyone knows, I don't know what I'm talking about when I talk about sports, but it strikes me as sports, having been in the houses of my Ringer colleagues and knowing that most of them have, the people who cover sports seriously have like multiple monitors, knowing if you watch multiple games at once, sports seems to me to be the ultimate background watching sort of experience, right?

Speaker 3 You can put F1 on and you're not glued to it every single second. You can be scrolling TikTok and look up when F1 gets interesting, but then Apple gets the benefit of you just having it on.

Speaker 3 You are streaming their content and that they don't care if you're watching it with all of your attention. It's just there, you know?

Speaker 4 Yeah, when they show a Yankee game and I've got to put on Apple TV to watch the Yankees play, that's a three-hour game. A lot of dead time there.

Speaker 4 And yet I will have it on for three hours like a chump. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Not a chump. But like,

Speaker 3 this is what it means to watch sports. And so there, there's the like

Speaker 3 have to watch it live aspect of, you know, wanting, you know, like the sports hook is really interesting to me in terms of like the monoculture, the communal experience that you have to watch live, like all of these sort of things that are dwindling that still only belong occasionally to like HBO Sunday nights.

Speaker 3 and stuff like that. That is just like an interesting hook that some of these platforms are chasing.

Speaker 3 So Apple just did a major price hike. HBO today, we're recording this on Tuesday.
HBO just like bumped up their

Speaker 3 price effective immediately.

Speaker 3 Kang says, Laugh.

Speaker 4 He's just the best guy.

Speaker 3 We love Dave on this show. We love him so much.

Speaker 3 So yeah, I mean, the streaming wars continue apace. I am very curious to see how Apple does.

Speaker 3 And I say all of that knowing that we're about to spend the next several weeks talking about an Apple show that I am very, very excited about. And I

Speaker 3 know is going to be great. And I hope that other people watch, you know.

Speaker 4 It's interesting, though.

Speaker 4 And this is something that basically you can only get away with if you are vince gilligan which is it's very expensive they filmed like all around the world it is a wholly original idea it is not based on ip vince is not really letting them market what the show is about uh which is one of the reasons that we have to keep talking around it and it the lead is one of the great actors alive ray seahorn She is not famous.

Speaker 4 She is not a star. Like if you were not one of the people who watch Better Call Soul, you probably probably don't know who she is.

Speaker 4 So like, you can't, she's not one of those people like a ham or a Vince Vaughan where you can just put her face on the tile and go, oh, I want to see that.

Speaker 4 And maybe this show makes her into that person, but she's not that yet. So you are selling this show 1,000% on from the creator of Breaking Bad.
Correct. Will this work?

Speaker 3 I hope it works, but I don't know. I mean, it's, I completely agree with you.
Vince, Vince Gilligan is the draw more than anything else. Um,

Speaker 3 the teasers have been like, I think, intriguing to people. Yes.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 very certainly,

Speaker 3 you know, and some, it's always interesting to me when a creator leaves their home network, you know, so for him to leave

Speaker 3 AMC and to go to Apple. And it seems very clear to me that Apple really hopes this is another severance.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I hope that too.
I would love for this to be as big of a hit as severance is, you know.

Speaker 4 I want good things. And also, I just, I want original things.
Like, I mean, that's the case with Severance as well. You know, whatever ups and downs it has, it's a new idea.

Speaker 4 It's not based on anything else. And it, you know, if this works, I don't expect it to suddenly inspire every executive in town to be like, oh, give me your original material.

Speaker 4 But at least it might make them less hesitant. to listen to that kind of pitch.

Speaker 3 And, you know, for what it's worth, again, your friends and neighbors didn't super work for me, but that's a, that's an original idea. The studio's original idea, you know, like Apple is

Speaker 3 not, despite what I just said about Presumed Innocent, not relying super heavily on IP at the moment. So, you know, versus AMC, which is like

Speaker 3 all in on the Ann Rice universe, which to me is thrilling because I love Interview with a Vampire, but like, I don't really care about Tommy.

Speaker 4 I need to catch up on that. I really need to catch up on that one.

Speaker 3 Okay. It's so good.
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 3 Well, that has been Slow Horses Episode episode five, uh, check-in and a little state of the, you know, state of Apple and their, and their

Speaker 3 rebrand effort, which I'm very curious to see about. Alan Seppimel, where can folks find you if they want more of your thoughts?

Speaker 4 These days, I'm primarily writing at my own site, What's Alan Watching, which is easy enough to find at what'salanwatching.com. I'm doing recaps, including of Slow Horses, the low down

Speaker 4 at the moment, and I'm reviewing stuff. I'm doing interviews.
I'll be covering Pluribus Weekly as well.

Speaker 4 And so, you know, come find me there.

Speaker 3 I'm Joanna Robinson. We will be back with the Slow Horses Finale is sort of our next Planned Prestige TV episode.
So that's a whole week until you hear from us again. Rob Mahoney should be back.

Speaker 3 He really wants to be, I know. Thank you to Kevin Pooler.
Thank you to Justin Sales. And we'll see you soon.
Bye.

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Speaker 5 They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist.

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