‘Disclaimer’ Episode 5: Gone Fishing

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Speaker 5 Hello, welcome back to Press TV Podcast Speed.

Speaker 1 I'm Jonah Robinson. I am Rob Mahoney.

Speaker 5 We are here in person. Kai Grady is also here.
We're all in the same studio. Even though we're all from the Bay Area, we are here in Los Angeles together.

Speaker 5 We have traveled miles to talk to you about a show set in both the UK and Italy. So here we are to talk about Disclaimer Episode 5.

Speaker 5 We only have two more episodes to go after this one, so we are beyond the midway mark of the season. We have a lot of questions, comments, and concerns about this episode of television.

Speaker 5 Before we get into all that, we did want to hit some email

Speaker 5 roundup.

Speaker 1 You all also had many questions, comments, and concerns of all kinds. I learned a lot about football, I learned a lot about Chelsea specifically and various bridges, including the bridge.
The bridge.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 we got, I think it's tied for most emails about either A,

Speaker 5 the fact that the team, the, we asked you which football team that Robert and Nikki are rooting for, you all said unequivocally Chelsea. Yes.
Because they mentioned the bridge, which is their stadium.

Speaker 5 Great. Trouble at the bridge, I believe, is the sentence.
Also, the freezer door.

Speaker 1 A lot of freezer talks.

Speaker 5 A lot of freezer door emails from you guys. And it was made all the more evident inside of this episode.

Speaker 5 The idea is not that he opens the freezer door to cool himself down, which I think was my interpretation, but that the freezer or fridge in general rattles because it is old and

Speaker 5 clunky. And opening and closing the freezer door sort of resets it and settles it down.
And I guess I actually want to take a second on this because we get again in this episode. Why?

Speaker 5 I have a thought about it, but why that detail, do you think, Brob?

Speaker 1 I think it does contribute. And where you may have not been off in the first place, at least spiritually, is this idea of Stephen letting the whole house go.

Speaker 1 Like you can't even flip light switches on anymore. Everything is clearly a mess.
The backyard is in shambles. Right.
Bugs are dying on the counter, seemingly to Stephen's glee.

Speaker 1 I don't know that I would have like fully expected that. Oh, no.

Speaker 5 It's a metaphor, Rob.

Speaker 1 Look, I get the metaphor. I get why it's happening in the show.
Super subtle metaphor. Well, this is a super subtle episode, as we're going to dive into.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think it just contributes to the overall sense of like squalor that he now finds himself living in by his own making.

Speaker 5 I think it's also to go back to, we didn't get a a lot of more information about

Speaker 5 Stephen as a father necessarily inside of this episode, but it perhaps goes to the conversation we were having about the breakstocks as a family, their son, and perhaps this approach that Stephen might have of like not addressing the real problems.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And just sort of surface level taking care of a thing for a second, but not

Speaker 5 trying to pull his wife out of her depression more actively, but bringing her a tray of food so she can, you know, lock herself away and write creepy fanfic about her son.

Speaker 5 Or perhaps if her son is not this stand-up guy,

Speaker 1 what would give you that impression?

Speaker 5 I don't know that he has been shown to be so far in the flashbacks, then perhaps that's not something Steven ever looked deeply at.

Speaker 5 So maybe that's sort of like a bit of a character tell in that regard. I think it's fair to say.
Thank you for all of your Freezer door emails.

Speaker 5 Any comment, Rob, on the fishmonger email that we got from someone? We asked if anyone had a source on a peninsula

Speaker 1 fishmonger. Peninsula?

Speaker 5 Peninsular.

Speaker 1 Peninsular fishmonger. Wow.
As one is often looking for.

Speaker 5 That's my new like tongue twister warm-up for podcasts.

Speaker 1 Peninsular. You can send your emails to peninsularfishmonger at gmail.com.

Speaker 5 That's a good test for like Brits trying to do an American exit. There you go.
Peninsular fishmonger. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 We did get some recommendations for for actual fishmongers which i appreciate most of them were male fishmongers male order fishmongers m-a-i-l yes well that i don't want to even dig into what that other alternative could be i'm going to say that's not what i'm looking for

Speaker 1 you want a guy a local guy i want gender neutral i want a gender neutral guy i can show up and be like i want rockfish yeah to make ceviche tonight yeah hook me up And he's gonna be like, Rob, it's not a good day for rockfish.

Speaker 5 May I recommend this other option?

Speaker 1 And that's what I want to know. And that's what I feel like Catherine's fishmonger had that my mail order fishmonger would not be able to offer me.
Right.

Speaker 5 We say no to mail order brides and no to mail order fish. Okay.

Speaker 5 This is the one, this is the email that I want to read out from Sean with the email title that I absolutely love, Kylie Solves the Time Continuum.

Speaker 1 Let's go.

Speaker 5 The flashback of Jonathan and Catherine's story. I've been doing my head in as to what timeframe they are set.
This week we got our answer, thanks to Kylie Minogue or just Kylie if you're Australian.

Speaker 5 Jonathan has an infatuation with Kylie, as we've noted. Then we get to see the inside of his room after his death.
On his wall, there are two Kylie posters.

Speaker 5 This is like Rob Mahoney Broom Detective level of work here. One is promo pic from her fever album that was released in 2001.

Speaker 5 The other poster is Kylie in a costume by Dolce and Gabbana from her fever tour that toured the northern summer of 2002.

Speaker 5 So I would assume that Jonathan and Catherine are holidaying in the summer of 2003. It's 20 years ago, so the now is 2023.
Does that all work for you?

Speaker 1 The math checks out. I will say on the Kylie front, I've had two thoughts as we're watching this episode.
Yeah. One, I'm not so convinced that Jonathan actually liked Kylie Minogue that much.

Speaker 1 It feels very much like the kind of thing where your parent knows that you like one artist because you mentioned them one time.

Speaker 1 Or in this case, maybe he just thought she was hot and put a poster up on his wall. And then forever, they just like associate that person with you.
I could absolutely see that happening.

Speaker 1 I also saw that she was on the Kelly Clarkson show this week. And as far as I know, no mention of disclaimer somehow.

Speaker 1 So some, someone in the back, someone who's doing question prep over at the Kelly Clarkson show.

Speaker 1 Dereliction of duty as a journalist, Kelly Clarkson.

Speaker 5 Kelly, if your people aren't formulating a question where you get to ask Kylie about how she feels about her nipple being a subject of

Speaker 1 an Alfonso Cuaron Apple TV Plus show.

Speaker 5 Questions, comments, concerns. Are there any other emails you want to address?

Speaker 1 Ramhoni. I was very interested in an email that we got from Jackson who wrote us about the terror as a parent of seeing Book Nicholas left alone at the beach and like what that awakened in them.

Speaker 1 I think that could be an interesting perspective that we are not quite tapping into with this show.

Speaker 1 This is a show about parenthood, about grieving a child, about raising one who is kind of a failure in a lot of ways that I'm sure we will talk about today.

Speaker 1 And I would love to know from the parents who are listening, like, how is this hitting you?

Speaker 1 You don't need to disclose the full extent of your traumas or expose your kids as fail sons, but I would love to know what are the like pain points that are being hit for you that may not be getting hit for us.

Speaker 1 Cause I'm sure there are some.

Speaker 5 Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's, yeah, there's just like a different level of engagement that people have as new parents are old when they watch a show where children are in peril.

Speaker 5 I think that's true.

Speaker 5 The last thing I want to say, sort of as like an umbrella point before we get into this episode that we did not super love, is this, I wrote down in my notes the visceral idea of aroma in this episode because Helen's house, Catherine's mother's house, like reeks of death is essentially what she says.

Speaker 5 She's got like a floral glade plug-in to cover the smell of in her room. Nicholas hopes that Robert can't smell the vape smoke.

Speaker 1 He can. He sure can.
I promise you he can.

Speaker 5 He sure can.

Speaker 5 And then this idea that Jisu, Catherine's assistant,

Speaker 5 reeks of ambition is what Steven says. So this idea of like...

Speaker 5 I don't know, we've talked so much about this as like a visual show, but I think it's also a very, in its best moments, a very visceral show where we are meant to have as many senses engaged as possible in this.

Speaker 5 And I think, especially with a show about memory and what's real and what's not real, this idea of the touchstone of like, what, what do your senses tell you?

Speaker 5 I think is maybe an interesting thing to continue to think about.

Speaker 1 Even just some of the settings I feel like are super evocative in that way.

Speaker 1 Like you walk into this drug den and it's like, I kind of have a sense of what the sensory experience of this place would be. I have to admit, not having been in many drug dens myself.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Not usually my vibe, or just the whole like ocean kind of memory panorama that we get over in Italy, which regretfully we don't get to spend any time for this week's episode.

Speaker 5 I mean, do you think we're done with that actually?

Speaker 1 I hope not.

Speaker 1 Well, we're going to see, I assume, some version or total version of the truth from Catherine's POV.

Speaker 5 We're going to see Catherine's POV, but I think we're kind of done with Perfect Stranger book version.

Speaker 1 Probably so.

Speaker 5 Because we've gotten the whole story. We got the plot.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 We didn't get to see her, quote-unquote, punished, which they mentioned that she gets gets in the

Speaker 1 gets what she deserves or something like that. Yeah.
So I guess we'll see. Maybe I assume that's kind of what Steven's after ultimately here.
Correct.

Speaker 5 All right. So let's talk about this episode.
And we talked about this a little bit off air, but like I'm a little worried, especially more episode five. Definitely.

Speaker 5 I'm a little worried about this season ending in a way that is going to feel satisfying to me. I think the idea of holding

Speaker 5 because we feel very certain that the version of events that we've seen in Italy is not the true story.

Speaker 5 And I think holding what the true story is as a like surprise potentially reveal for the finale is not the move

Speaker 5 in an era of the overly engaged, quite savvy TV viewer.

Speaker 5 And something that you and I had talked about like very briefly yesterday, not burning any pod, of course, but just like...

Speaker 1 We would never do that.

Speaker 1 You can't burn tape. How can we possibly?

Speaker 5 We need to save it all for you, dear listeners.

Speaker 5 But like this idea of Alfonso Cueron, master filmic storyteller, does he understand the rhythms of what it takes to tell a season of television's worth of story?

Speaker 5 Because I think,

Speaker 5 I think saving Catherine's POV

Speaker 5 as we presume a twist of some kind is to underestimate your viewer.

Speaker 1 Very much so.

Speaker 1 I'm not opposed to this feeling, especially at this point in the season, of the walls closing in. I just can't be convinced for even a second that they actually are.
Right.

Speaker 1 They don't really feel threatening because we know that the twist is coming. We know that this whole show is about subjectivity and perspectives.

Speaker 1 And I think there's some interesting stuff we can talk about as far as that goes. This idea that I think pops up throughout the season in this episode in particular of...

Speaker 1 confirming your assumptions about the people in your life and like how little it takes to nudge you into confirmation bias i think is something this episode toys with but But I'll say this: Catherine

Speaker 1 shows up to Steven's house in this episode. He doesn't answer the door.
And there is one reason he doesn't answer the door, and it's because we have two episodes left.

Speaker 1 That's the only reason that the conversation doesn't happen. Yeah.
And that tells me that there's a pacing problem.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I agree. And I think also

Speaker 5 to your point about confirmation bias,

Speaker 5 I think another timing issue I'm bumping up against here in episode five, episode five, especially is how quickly Steven's con or plan is just knocking over domino after domino after, like, it takes one day

Speaker 5 of catfishing, uh, you know, Nikki to get him hooked on some 19-year-old's like opinion of him.

Speaker 1 It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 5 Or the fact that the entire office turns on Catherine in the matter of like an hour or two. And again, to your point, the point is they want to think the worst of her.
Yes. And I understand that.

Speaker 1 That's the part I believe.

Speaker 1 And I think the fact that even for a group of like documentarians or documentary adjacent industry workers of various kinds, there's a different threshold for like journalism and gossip.

Speaker 1 And the idea that you might latch on to a salacious detail about someone you work with, part of that feels plausible. The way it's executed is ridiculous, frankly.

Speaker 5 It felt inside this episode when you have Robert having dinner with Steven and saying, like, she's reprehensible. She's the worst.

Speaker 5 Don't lump me in with her. My son and I, we beg you for your forgiveness.
The way the office turned on her in the matter of, let's say, hours,

Speaker 5 however long it took them to skim Perfect Stranger before she showed up. The way that Nikki gets ensnared inside of...
it seems, one DM session over the course of a few hours. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Even the fact that it seems as though this fake page was like served to him by the algorithm in the first place of like a newly created social media account with.

Speaker 5 Oh, I thought he DM'd him first and said like, like your pics or something like that.

Speaker 1 I think it was framed based on the way I saw it as like maybe that Nicholas was like baited into commenting on one of the junk memes that he had posted. That's that's kind of how I read it.

Speaker 5 Low-grade meme game on this page.

Speaker 1 These are the

Speaker 1 these are the kind of memes that make me think like, not this is a teenager, but this is a Russian operative.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Very concerning.

Speaker 5 Okay, so that comes back to a pacing issue because I can imagine seeing and enjoying Steven's like sort of demented game against Catherine if it is like a longer con.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But the fact that every single move he makes pays off immediately for him then pushes this

Speaker 5 episode and then by extension, perhaps a series, despite incredibly like profound performances from Kate Blanchett, etc. etc., into the realm of satire, like it felt satirical.

Speaker 5 And if I were watching, like, if you took this script and put it with a different tone of director, I'd be like, this is a rather broad satire of cancel culture. Yes.

Speaker 5 And like the moment where Jisoo says, you're so canceled, Catherine.

Speaker 1 What are we doing?

Speaker 5 I had already written in my notes, oh no, is this about cancel culture? And I have a lot to say about that. But like, then they just said it.

Speaker 5 It sort of tumbled a whole house of cards for me because I was just like, then I start thinking about Kate Blanche and Alfonso Coron having these passionate meetings about how they're going to like

Speaker 5 really show them about cancel culture and really show them about like what it means to make assumptions about people you don't know.

Speaker 5 But the thing they fundamentally misunderstand, and we don't have time today to get into like all of the nuances of cancel culture, I promise you.

Speaker 5 And my opinion that I don't think cancel culture quite even actually exists, but like the difference between

Speaker 5 an an online mob turning on someone and every single person you know personally in your life who

Speaker 1 should

Speaker 5 give you some shred of the benefit of the doubt,

Speaker 5 it's like an impossible connection to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because a whole thing about canceling is you're not treating the person as a human.

Speaker 5 And you can make the argument that like women or older women or women are too successful or women who are too pretty or whatever you want to say about Catherine, that people are eager to turn on them, you know, that people in her office, Simon, especially who she was taunting earlier in the season,

Speaker 5 is eager to turn on her. I believe all of that.
But like this idea, and there was even a moment when, you know, she said to them, I don't owe you. I don't have to explain myself to you.

Speaker 5 And Simon and Jisoo both are like, yes, you do.

Speaker 5 That's slightly interesting to me. Like, what do we owe people? What kind of explanation?

Speaker 5 But I just think it's a real miss to take a character like Robert, her devoted husband, and turn him so quickly that he doesn't even have a conversation with her.

Speaker 1 You know, I think what works about the Robert part is that he's framed in this episode and in this season, but I would say especially in this episode as someone who's just getting finessed by the people around him.

Speaker 1 Like he is a buffoon. Yeah.
And his own son doesn't want to spend time with him is basically using him to not have to pay rent.

Speaker 5 Spit on him.

Speaker 1 Spit like with nothing to do with him. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And Stephen thinks so little of him, he wasn't even supposed to be involved in the plot beyond this point but basically takes this dinner with him as a chance to twist the knife like it's just like a matter of convenience that he is in this story at all at this point i really understand and agree with that and i think actually sasha baron coin has done a really good job of yes uh embodying that buffoonery the little moment when they sit down to eat at the restaurant and like he's trying to have this conversation with steven and the waiter comes up and just like the way he dismisses him there's all these little character beats with him it's like i have a really good sense of who this person is and it's very vivid and specific and it's effective yeah

Speaker 5 but he is a buffoon like there's no way around it i agree i like i think what i'm bumping up against because i don't mind broad stoke strokes telling a story it's a combination of a broad strokes kind of this is ridiculous and overblown but like it's making a a larger point about how we treat people treat women etc who we believe all that sort of stuff matched with the like cinema verite style of storytelling that we're watching here.

Speaker 5 The the idea that Chivo as it's not quite cinema verte obviously, but like the idea that Chivo as a cinematographer prizes things that look naturally lit, realistic. This is a real, real story.

Speaker 5 But like I feel like oftentimes what I'm getting in this, inside of this episode is like, sorry to bother you levels of

Speaker 1 side art.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
And so I'm just sort of like, that might work for me in the context of a different storyteller or a different visual style. Yeah.

Speaker 1 yeah but but inside of this which is prestige with a capital p it feels clumsy completely and maybe even with a different lead performer to be honest i think kate blanchette's been good but casting her in this role which again is another cancel culturey type story yeah after tar does it no favors because this has none of the subtlety that i think made tar and even the mystery and the like fundamental like disconnect between characters in a positive way where it felt like there was a lot of airspace that felt constructive to the way they were trying to tell that story.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Here it has the very frustrating problem:

Speaker 1 I feel the vice is supposed to be tightening. Right.
And yet, all you have to do is say the thing. And she's finding every reason not to do it.

Speaker 1 And I understand on a human level, not everyone is going around saying how they feel all the time.

Speaker 1 There are things that go unsaid between people who know each other and love each other for years and years and years. I get it.
But the whole tension of this story is hanging on a couple of things.

Speaker 1 One of them is the sort of like weird, weird, unbelievable mechanisms of the social media account or just like Nicholas getting dropped off a book at work by someone he doesn't know and that being the only book he's read in years.

Speaker 1 And he fucking

Speaker 1 through it.

Speaker 1 Well, first of all, I mean, I would never do that with fiction. But, well, I guess the problem is he thinks it's non-fiction.
This is the fundamental problem, Joe. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Why would he read that book in the first place?

Speaker 1 I have no idea. There's even a bit in this episode about how kids don't read books these days.
And he mentions that this is the only book that he's read lately. Yeah.
Why did he read it?

Speaker 5 Great questions unanswered. I think also the moment where, again, if it's played for comedy, it kind of works.

Speaker 1 Are we misreading it? Is it supposed to be a funnier show?

Speaker 5 Maybe.

Speaker 5 I think I need a different score to go with it.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 5 When she's shouting through the mail slot, like, you have to let me speak.

Speaker 5 Again, I can imagine the meeting where they're like, oh, this is how it feels when you're being canceled and no one will listen to you or hear your side of the story or whatever. And again,

Speaker 5 because I keep maybe unfairly envisioning these conversations, it just feels quite smug of like, we'll show them what cancel culture is and we'll make a fool of them by twisting the knife and revealing, oh, you thought you knew it was happening.

Speaker 5 But like we, we know that there's another side of the story that you are concealing from us, not only via delays in

Speaker 5 Stephen answering the door, but in like the voice of our narration, like the fact we, we were asking earlier, why is Stephen in the the I? And then we've got this Indira Varma, you narration.

Speaker 5 Well, that's because, so we're not inside Catherine's

Speaker 1 head. So you can stave it off for a long time.

Speaker 5 You can keep that secret. Or when she's in bed with her mother and she's going to confess everything to her mother and then the Indira Varma voiceover just cuts in over it so we can't hear it.

Speaker 5 Again, that just feels like, I don't know, it irritated me the wrong way.

Speaker 1 It did for me too. And I think even those elements, I think overall for me in this episode, the parts that worked best in some ways were Catherine with her mother.
Yes.

Speaker 1 I think the idea of the cancel culture stuff they're at least gesturing at, if not trying to explore, is pretty exhausting and pretty not good so far. Correct.

Speaker 1 This idea that Catherine interrogates briefly in a moment of self-reflection of like how little she knows about her own mother and what she went through. I think it's such a relatable idea.

Speaker 1 of you have these broad strokes impressions of the people in your life. And I would say this is especially true of your parents, probably.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Of you know the beats of how they got here, but what was really hard for them, you may have no idea.

Speaker 5 To Yesi on that point, I will say that, again, we are not parents, so there is this perspective.

Speaker 5 We're not bringing the show, but I have heard from people bringing up children that there becomes a moment throughout your experience as a new and evolving parent where then you have to consider your parents as people in a way you never have before.

Speaker 5 We experience versions of that as we grow into adulthood and we're like, oh, God.

Speaker 5 I never even thought about them having to navigate X, Y, and Z because I was just a kid and taking it for granted.

Speaker 5 And so Catherine, perhaps belatedly in her life, confronting her relationship with Nikki here and then having to then confront her relationship with her own mother, I think is, I agree, interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I mean, she is a self-absorbed character. It does make sense to me that it would have taken her this long to really zoom out and be like, wait a minute, I am not the only person here.

Speaker 5 But is the point self-absorption or is the point like denial of some like, did she, whatever happened, which we presume was bad and traumatizing? Right.

Speaker 5 Did she push it down and bury it so deep because of trauma that she has not allowed herself introspection? Because to introspect at all is to examine this thing she's trying to hide from herself.

Speaker 5 You know, that's a degree of empathy I can offer her. It's not a healthy coping mechanism for trauma, but it is like certainly something one can do.

Speaker 5 But I think to your point, similar to I love that you brought up tar.

Speaker 1 How do you not? Like it's begging for it. Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 5 Catherine being at just like the height of everything, the height of cultural privilege, white privilege, financial privilege, beauty privilege, all this sort of stuff like that, is a kind of character that is at least interesting to explore in this context.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But not like this, Rob. Oh, not like this.
Not like this. But I'll see what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 I think the only thing that Catherine says in this episode, or may have been a bit of narration, is, and this can explain some of the character motivation, but I don't think it excuses the overall plotting of the show.

Speaker 1 As far as why Catherine would have held this so tightly for so long is to protect Nicholas. And so it's, did something happen in Italy to Nicholas specifically?

Speaker 1 Or is it just one of those things where it would be publicly embarrassing or humiliating for the family and for her in a way that she's trying to protect him from? I get that as a motivation.

Speaker 1 I just don't think it works with this overall structure of the show.

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Speaker 1 Rules and restrictions apply.

Speaker 5 I will say this. If they land this season in a position of strength, they could bring me around.

Speaker 5 Shows have done that. before at this spot where I've been like, I don't know, it feels like the wheels are coming off this thing.
And then they've brought it to a very satisfying conclusion.

Speaker 5 And if the conclusion is satisfying enough, it can ripple back in a way that I just feel positively about the show.

Speaker 5 I think similarly, like Slow Horses, the season that we just did felt a little bumpy in the middle, but then we both sort of like really enjoyed the emotionality of the ending.

Speaker 5 And that can like ripple back and sort of plaster over some cracks.

Speaker 5 And guess what?

Speaker 1 That's where having one of the best casts on television could really pay off for you. Like if Kate can sell us a finale, if Kevin Klein can sell us a finale, then I'm on board with that.

Speaker 1 I'm open to the idea of this thing figuring itself out. It's just five episodes in, two left.
I don't feel great about where we are.

Speaker 1 I liked some of the unspooling of the initial mystery, and now that it's time to start wrapping it up and get closure on things, if the show is going to give us any kind of closure on things, I just don't see it moving in a very positive direction.

Speaker 1 I mean, that positive as in like a good TV product, not a happy ending.

Speaker 5 This ends on a cliffhanger of like, is Nikki going to die? Do you have any

Speaker 1 fucking Nick? Do you have any

Speaker 5 belief that that could possibly happen in this narration?

Speaker 1 I don't think he's going to die. No.
I will say, like, you know, you're having a bad day when you knock at the heroin den and the guy there is like, are you all right?

Speaker 5 Come clean yourself up inside of our den of iniquity.

Speaker 1 Please.

Speaker 5 Use our sink. Splash some water on yourself.

Speaker 1 And for a show that is telling us at all times to interrogate our first impressions, we are now five impressions deep and I can confidently say this guy sucks. Like Nick just sucks.

Speaker 5 He really does. Any thoughts or feelings on his direct message style?

Speaker 1 Just bros sending porn to each other? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Never mind. I was going to say, how quickly do you send porn to a stranger? But I don't need to know that answer.

Speaker 5 I was, again, I was watching this and I was like, I wrote in my notes halfway through the episode.

Speaker 5 I was like, okay, the tone is, the broadness of the tone is bothering me, but Cody Smith-McPhee's performance is satisfying me. And then we got to the end of the episode.

Speaker 5 And then I was like, no, now, now I can't even cling to that. That's not even working for me anymore.

Speaker 1 But see, this is where I wonder if, are you and I just like off our axis somehow? Are we missing the plot as non-parents on a show that's about parenting in a lot of ways?

Speaker 1 Are we missing the fundamental like aspects of Nicholas's character that could be interesting? And this is where I want to bring in our dedicated producer, Kai Grady. Yeah.

Speaker 1 As one of the Ringers' foremost Gen Z correspondents.

Speaker 5 That's what I was hoping you were bringing Kai in for as a Gen Z correspondent.

Speaker 1 I am, I'm out of my depth here, Kai. Yeah.
I have a series of questions for you. Please.
I might be out of my depth watching this, so we'll see.

Speaker 1 We're going to find out, but I I think we're going to find out if Nicholas is way off base.

Speaker 1 Have you eaten fruit loops in the last year? I haven't, but I have eaten cinnamon toast crunch. But that's a better cereal.

Speaker 1 I think when you're in the fruity side of the cereal spectrum, it's a different thing.

Speaker 5 When you've eaten said cereal, have you then just knocked the box over on the counter so that like a few bits of cereal can be strewn on the counter and walked away?

Speaker 1 Not my style. No, I haven't done that in a while.

Speaker 1 And also, I should say, don't want to open this, you know can of worms but no milk for me on the cereal so that's wow that might be a little bit more his speed in terms of it might be psychosis we should do a special episode of the prestige tv podcast where we just interrogate all of kai's special quirks you're you're a dry cereal guy yeah dry cereal all the way okay next next season on uh prestige tv we're going to cover all of this season of culinary class wars which has been dope on netflix i don't know if anyone's been watching that and we're just going to go episode by episode with kai

Speaker 1 would you eat this and kai will say no probably it's a very simple show but so fruit loops no but other sugary cereals are fine i think

Speaker 1 i'm gonna go from like least objectionable to most objectionable okay here let's go have you listened to yeet i have listened to yeet okay i like yeet quite a bit but i will say i i have a tweet in my drafts that i probably won't send but watching the episode a couple of days ago and hearing yeet and disclaimer something does the math is not mathing there yeah i was shocked and appalled but also a little bit like who's doing the music like i have that was that was that worked that felt right way it felt right, but also wrong.

Speaker 1 I can't really explain it, but I do listen to ye. Not like the biggest fan, but I do dabble.

Speaker 5 Do you listen to ye while moodily blowing vape clouds out of Wall of Global?

Speaker 1 Well, that seems like the way to do it, honestly. You gotta do it? It's the only way to listen to you.
I gotta give them credit for that, too. Okay.

Speaker 1 Have you ever put a phone call on hold to comment on a sick meme?

Speaker 1 No, no, I haven't. I can't.
Sick meme.

Speaker 1 A meme that is like, you mentioned this earlier, but just like, what what were those circa 2010 maybe i think 55 year old people were were were putting those memes together it was like when you covered clipped earlier this year

Speaker 5 and it was like a rip from the headline story and they're trying to like go back in time and it was just like can't do it this is not accurate what was this guy's name tommy like yeah tommy's not striking like tommy writing out a glossary of abbreviations for steven he's not he's not reading uh cutting edge Gen Z for me.

Speaker 1 No. But at least he had enough to know that like you shouldn't do this on Facebook.

Speaker 1 You You know, at least, at least make an Instagram account, which I would even argue that might not be reaching quite the right demographic for an 18-year-old today. But what do I know?

Speaker 5 And he's like, no punctuation. And then Steven just threw that out the window and started capitalizing and using all kinds of punctuation.

Speaker 1 I knew he was cooked at that point. That's when you know it was for real.
That's when you know the reveal is coming. The question marks are getting dropped.
Last question for you, Kai.

Speaker 1 Have you ever peed on a book in the back alley near your heroin den? Only a handful of times. Okay.
Yeah. So not would you recommend?

Speaker 1 No. But, you know, it happens.
Sometimes you get to that place. Yep.

Speaker 1 I don't judge. But that was pretty wild.
It's pretty wild to do. Crying in the rain, peeing on a book.
That's too much liquid. That's too much liquid.

Speaker 5 Peeing on a book after rereading the pages that pornographically depicted something that your mother may or may not have done. I'm so glad you brought this up.

Speaker 1 When Stephen texts him, check pages 183 to 261. Who has the time? That's 80 pages of stuff.

Speaker 5 Nancy put 80 pages of smut in a rather slim novel.

Speaker 1 That thing, what would you guess the total page count is?

Speaker 5 Nancy would kill on book talk. If Nancy were to switch her focus to fairy porn, like some Akatar, some fourth wing, she'd be crushing it on BookTalk right now.

Speaker 1 Honestly, that's what we needed in episode two was this is like the runaway online sensation because of the smut. Yes.

Speaker 1 And that's how Nick was like, oh, this is a hot and steamy book that I, first of all, I just don't believe that character is reading literally anything, but I guess that's more plausible.

Speaker 1 Other than the dank memes other than the dank memes and and yeet lyrics yes i mean he knew he knew it by heart he was locked in yeah he was and can i just say on the gen z front just as the resident uh gen z are here it's like that instagram the whole creating the instagram was just like and and responding to a random account like that i was like who no one does that humans don't do that even the idea of putting posts on the grid is just not something that a supposed 18 year old would do yeah i just want you i i don't think we got the full bio but this is what we got it's jonathan B underscore 127.

Speaker 5 Yep. And the fraction of the bio we got was watch out, world.
Here I come.

Speaker 5 Your parents are a bag of crap.

Speaker 1 I think it's a D.

Speaker 5 It's a D.

Speaker 5 A bag of dicks.

Speaker 1 A bag of dicks, which I sourced as a Rick and Morty quote. Sure.
Which I think makes sense from the Tommy perspective.

Speaker 1 But the idea that Steven would sign off on his dead son's fake Instagram being one a Rick and Morty quote, he has no idea what that is, but also your parents are a bag of dicks. I don't buy it.

Speaker 5 Well, no, but he's bonding with Nikki over like,

Speaker 5 yeah, parents are the worst. Uni is for losers.

Speaker 5 Tits and Ibiza.

Speaker 1 It's just chatting. It's just DMing with chat GPT.
That's just all that was.

Speaker 1 All right. Thank you, Kai, for your appreciation.
Thank you so much. I so appreciate you.

Speaker 5 It was obviously ridiculous. I didn't mind that it was ridiculous because Tommy seemed like a really bad

Speaker 5 advisor in this.

Speaker 1 It was fun in that way.

Speaker 5 Nikki falling for it. He is a dum-dum, but like,

Speaker 5 still,

Speaker 5 I feel like even the dumbest of 20-somethings will be like, this feels like a bot.

Speaker 1 Completely.

Speaker 5 You know, like maybe if he catfished him with like a hot chick rather than like, well, then we don't know what Nikki's preferences are. Maybe Jonathan is exactly the ticket.
Who's to say?

Speaker 1 Maybe so, but it isn't played that way. It's almost played in terms of the internal monologue narration style, as if he's kind of flattered by the idea of a younger person looking up to him and

Speaker 5 like that kind of attention of like, oh, you're someone someone who knows something about the world when he clearly himself you know sees himself as being very lost and is very lost in a continuing fashion as the sole representative of uh cat culture on this podcast say i continue to enjoy the work of both cats the ginger and the gray cat gray cat especially this cat is like catherine's gone latched itself on to nicholas here and is just like on the bed falling into the bathroom to vomit which was his move when catherine did the same when nicholas like goes out the front door the cat is like where are you you going?

Speaker 5 I want to come with you. Like, I just, I enjoyed all of this.

Speaker 1 I would just argue that maybe the cat should have the emotional sensitivity to know that in this moment, I think Robert's the guy who actually needs the emotional support, cat.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but he knows that Robert sucks.

Speaker 1 I mean, Robert does, but Nicholas sucks so much.

Speaker 1 He also sucks.

Speaker 5 But also, Catherine maybe sucks.

Speaker 1 It is one of those shows. And I want to call that out here, that this is not the kind of show where people are supposed to come off in a likable fashion.

Speaker 1 It's pretty clear.

Speaker 5 I'm trying to think of like a single person that I like, and it's like nobody in Catherine's office, nobody in Robert's

Speaker 1 sucks.

Speaker 5 Nobody in Robert's office because they're doing crimes, yes, um, literal money laundering, not even that bookstore shop owner.

Speaker 5 And usually, I'm really fond of it, maybe it's that waiter, that one waiter.

Speaker 5 He seemed all right, just because we don't know him that well, he seemed fine, and he was just gonna go get a cure royale and not ask any questions about it, and it's gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 Yep, anything else you want to talk about? On the positive note, I find the mechanics of this show pretty frustrating at this stage.

Speaker 1 I find the overall nature nature of like the scheme frustrating, but like I love watching Kevin Klein cook out there and him

Speaker 1 going full deranged, absolute ham, leaning into like the feeble old man routine to trick everybody. Yeah,

Speaker 1 completely. Like I like those bits.
I don't know that they should be as convincing as they are, but I'm enjoying seeing him get to play around.

Speaker 5 Yeah, we got another grenade launch in this episode. And that always works.
Well, that's me.

Speaker 1 Again, that's about the level of timing required for all of his schemes to execute. It's like, pull the the pin from pin to explosion, everything will work.

Speaker 5 I was very excited when the grief cardigan made another appearance.

Speaker 5 So, yeah.

Speaker 1 One step in the door, he takes off a rainy coat, just drops it.

Speaker 5 That's that's the level of

Speaker 5 care in this house right now.

Speaker 1 I guess so.

Speaker 5 That does it?

Speaker 1 Yeah. All right.

Speaker 1 I really wish I were feeling better about the show. No, we were excited.

Speaker 5 We were really excited about the show, but we will be with it till the better end. We will not abandon the show.
So, we'll be back then next week.

Speaker 5 If you're loving this and feel like we're missing something, griefcardigan and gmail.com. If you have an IRL

Speaker 5 and Tommy will let you know what that abbreviation means if you don't. But if you have an IRL fishmonger that you would like to recommend for Rob, please let us know.

Speaker 5 If you have any Gen Z insights that you feel Kai missed, please let us know.

Speaker 1 First of all, I reject the insinuation. No, no, no.
I like that. I agree.
If there's any I missed, I would love to hear them.

Speaker 5 Kai doesn't miss generally, but if perhaps for once he did.

Speaker 1 We missed one thing on the Kai beat. When you did hear, I know you talked about the dissonance of hearing Yeet in this show.

Speaker 1 Did it cause you to do any self-reflection knowing that you have listened to Yeet and it's like the soundtrack of the fail sun?

Speaker 5 And were you like, oh no, I make those same air gun finger gun gestures?

Speaker 1 Well, who among us doesn't think come on? I mean, that I buy. Again, I'm into.
Listening to Yeet is vaping and finger guns, so it tracks.

Speaker 1 You know, I was out on Yeet when he first popped, and then I came back around late. And so now I'm like, kind of like, did I make the right move to come back now that I've seen this?

Speaker 1 So, you know, I'm definitely, there's definitely going to be some more self-reflection going on. Okay.
We love while I listen to Yeet.

Speaker 5 We love a self-aware king.

Speaker 1 We love that for you, Kai. If episode seven involves a big emotional montage to Yeet,

Speaker 1 I'm going to be really excited about that. I'm not going to lie to you, but I would have questions.
It might rocket the show at my best of list. So it might need that kind of juice.

Speaker 5 We'll be back. Next week with episode six.
Thanks to Kai Grady here in the room.

Speaker 1 Thanks to Rob Mahoney here in the room. Thanks to me here in the the room.
Of course.

Speaker 5 And thanks to Justin Sales, not in the room, but the one who acquired the room for us. So thank you all for listening, and we'll see you next week.

Speaker 1 Bye!