Money Stress Isn’t Always About Money

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Speaker 2 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships.

Speaker 2 I am Rachel Cruz, hosting this hour with my good friend and best-selling author, Dr. John Deloney.

Speaker 2 And we are answering your questions about life, money, relationships, career, anything, and everything. So give us a call at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 2 All right, we're going to go to the phones. And is it Torin from Boston?

Speaker 2 Hey, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hey, guys, thank you guys for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. Is it Torren? Did I get that right?

Speaker 3 Yep, that's perfect.

Speaker 2 Awesome. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So I'm an 18-year-old, and I'm a senior in high school this year, and I wanted pretty much advice on what to tell my parents about college.

Speaker 3 I've been watching you guys for a while now and I know the biggest thing was, you know, don't go into debt, don't take out loans if you can, try and cash flow it.

Speaker 3 So I figured I would want to go to a cheaper school. I was in Massachusetts, so it's a community college is free.

Speaker 3 So I figured I would go there and I could transfer to a state school where it's in 100% acceptance rate after out of the community college I want to go to. And

Speaker 3 my parents were very against this idea.

Speaker 3 They wanted me to go play a sport in college and go to a private university. They told me that like that doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was making the right decision because they don't agree with it. Are they paying for it? I went to community college.
No, they're not paying for it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they don't get a vote then.

Speaker 3 I brought that up, but they said they're going to be kicking me out. So I'll pay for housing.
They also take the car and my phone away.

Speaker 5 I mean, if they want to throw a grown-up temper tantrum,

Speaker 5 that's like the most babyish thing I've ever like they.

Speaker 2 Wait, yeah, I want to know more why.

Speaker 2 That's so that's so that's so that feels very extreme like it's one thing if your parents kind of like turn their nose up at community college because they're very educated new england like yeah yeah it's like oh my gosh can't believe you're gonna go to community college but to kick you out and take your car and your phone i mean that's a or if they said is there a religious element to this like a like to go to a catholic school i don't know or like any level of like a religion conviction there

Speaker 3 No, I don't really understand why. They just said it would look bad on a resumes and I think I'm making the wrong decision.
They said I was being pretty rude about it. So I think that's why.

Speaker 2 Well, if

Speaker 5 I have no problem with the parents saying, hey, as for me and my house, you're going to this school and we're paying for it. And if you want to go somewhere else, you're on your own.

Speaker 5 I have no problem with that at all. That happens all the time.
And if they say, hey, in this house, we go to Harvard. And so we've created this fund and you're going to Harvard if you get in.

Speaker 2 I have no problem with that.

Speaker 5 If they tell you, you will not go to that school that you can afford, which is free, you will go

Speaker 5 out loans and put yourself behind for the next 15 years of your life or 20 years of your life, depending what private school you go to. And if you don't do that, we're going to take your cell phone.

Speaker 5 We're going to take our ball and we're going to go home.

Speaker 2 We're not playing with you anymore.

Speaker 5 That just sounds like real childish, immature behavior.

Speaker 5 Because what they're doing is they're asking you to have all the skin in the game, and they're just going to sit on the sidelines and holler at you.

Speaker 3 I thought the same thing. I don't really know what their plan was.

Speaker 2 Yeah, is this out of character for them? Like, were you shocked by this, or is this like, oh, yeah, I can see mom and dad doing this?

Speaker 3 I already knew that they didn't want me living there after I was 18. They said they would help me out a little bit before.

Speaker 3 It was definitely out of character for them to like to, once they kind of like said, like, my mom said I could keep the car. My dad was very against keeping the car after that.

Speaker 2 But were you being a jerk, dude?

Speaker 5 Were you being an 18-year-old just like a turd? Or were you being kind and thoughtful?

Speaker 3 I will admit, for like the first like 30 minutes talked about this, this, I was very kind and peaceful. And then I started to, I was, I wasn't as nice as I should have been to them.

Speaker 5 All right. Yeah, I spent my whole career working with 18-year-olds.
Go tell your parents you're sorry.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 5 Go be a respectful 18-year-old son and say, hey, I got fired up and I acted like a kid and I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 I do not want to go into debt for college. And

Speaker 5 I respect you want your kids. You want to be able to tell your friends that your kid graduated from this college.
And I get that you don't.

Speaker 2 You don't like this. Don't say that.
That's disrespectful. I know.
That was me just having a little bit of a little bit of a mommy dig.

Speaker 5 But like,

Speaker 5 she wants to be able to go to Bridge Club and tell her, like, well, my kid is. Rachel,

Speaker 5 we used to call it the soccer mom scholarship. I worked at one university.

Speaker 2 We would lose students.

Speaker 5 We would give somebody a half scholarship. I'm sorry.
The tuition was, I'm making up a number, 20 grand.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And they would go to another school that cost 50 grand, but they got a $1,000 JV soccer scholarship. And we would lose them, which is a

Speaker 5 right,

Speaker 5 it's a $30,000 a year move, $120,000 move.

Speaker 2 To play JV soccer to do it.

Speaker 5 So that parents could be like, oh, my kid's playing on a soccer scholarship. Right.
It costs them money, like six figures, right?

Speaker 2 It's $1,000.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's real. But I would tell your parents your story, and then you have to make an 18-year-old decision.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and Torin, let me say this too.

Speaker 2 And John's the education nerd. He loves education, so he can maybe back me up on this.

Speaker 2 Just for perspective, so you're in Boston, and

Speaker 2 we have friends that came from that area. And the way, even the Northeast, I would say, even specifically, the way they view education,

Speaker 2 there is a high, premium, high regard. Like it is, it is everything.
When you come to

Speaker 2 the South, it's important.

Speaker 2 It's important, but it's not life. Like, there's a belief of like, you can scratch and claw and start a business and be as successful as the guy that has the college degree.

Speaker 2 Whether you go to college or not, there's kind of a micro, like, just kind of get in there and you figure it out and you can still be successful, but it doesn't have this air about it, which I'm not saying all New Englands have that, but I, but I do think as an 18-year-old that's growing up in that environment, I mean, you're in Boston, like it's, so just know there's a world outside of that.

Speaker 2 Not that we have it right necessarily. I'm not saying that, but, but you can be successful.
You can meet people and network outside of a college.

Speaker 2 Like there are ways to live life that is not one path of just, it has to be this prestigious education. If you don't get this, it's going to look bad on resumes.
You're never going to get a job.

Speaker 2 You're going to be homeless and you're going to die. Like, that's not the, that's not the route.
That's not right.

Speaker 2 So just know there is, there is more to life outside of possibly the bubble in which education is talked about in your family.

Speaker 5 And for whatever it's worth, John loves it.

Speaker 2 So just living the money. But

Speaker 5 I've got a,

Speaker 5 I think one of the most mission-minded institutions in the United States can be found inside of community colleges. And for whatever it's worth, my mom,

Speaker 5 Dr. Deloney, the first Dr.
Deloney was my mother, who graduated in her 50s with her PhD, started at a community college as a tenured full professor, right?

Speaker 5 So you can, here's what you can do with a community college education, anything you want to.

Speaker 2 Yep. Period.

Speaker 5 Maybe you have to work harder to get job number one. Fine.
But by the way, you're going to transfer out, right?

Speaker 5 You'll go to a state school or to a private school, wherever you end up on a transfer out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's a.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a program called Mass Transfer, and it guarantees acceptance as well as some other scholarships, as long as you maintain a certain grade point average in a community college.

Speaker 2 Man, that's good. And you're right on that.

Speaker 2 And you know, and for fun too, Torrin, like just run some numbers on the ROI of the private college that you'd go into debt for, average interest rate on a student loan, how long that would probably take you to pay off when you, if you got out of school with an average, maybe an above average salary, let's say.

Speaker 2 Run those numbers out.

Speaker 2 having to repay that starting in a financial hole significantly, six figures probably for this school, versus getting through it debt-free, doing the free community college, working, saving up, graduating from state school, starting off and starting to invest the moment you get your first paycheck because you're going to have money and not be in a hole.

Speaker 2 Financially, from the math perspective, who comes out ahead? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 Especially to get started.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And for everybody listening.

Speaker 2 I'm proud of you for think outside the box, but be nice to your parents.

Speaker 5 Yeah, be respectful.

Speaker 2 Treat your parents with dignity.

Speaker 5 And for everybody, I love private schools. I've worked at multiple private schools.
I would love for my kids, like, I love private schools.

Speaker 5 I just don't like parents lobbing grenades at their kids and saying, hey, to prop us up, you go do this thing that's going to cost you 10, 20 years of your life for making us feel good.

Speaker 5 I don't like that.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. We're going to Chris in Dallas, Texas.
Hey, Chris, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hey, how are you guys?

Speaker 2 We're doing great. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So, my girlfriend of just over a year now moved in about five months ago from her grandmother's who has, you know, supported her. For context, I'm 26 and she's about to be 25.

Speaker 3 I do have a career at the moment and currently pay all the bills, and

Speaker 3 it's kind of become a weight on me that she isn't really contributing.

Speaker 2 Because she doesn't have a job.

Speaker 3 Well, she works part-time. And back in February, she started a certification course to be a farm tech.
Okay.

Speaker 3 And since then, she discovered that the certification alone doesn't get her very much in the job market. So she's working on the test, but it's, you know, kind of slow going.

Speaker 5 So what did she say when you sat down and talked to her about this?

Speaker 3 She just isn't motivated. I mean, it's not something that she feels that she needs to do or has to do.

Speaker 3 And I'm having trouble with that.

Speaker 2 That's fair. So

Speaker 2 there's another adult in a relationship that's...

Speaker 5 Both of you are correct right now.

Speaker 5 She doesn't have to do anything because she gets to play house with you and you pay all the bills. She gets to live an imaginary life together.

Speaker 3 You know, we jumped the gun on that. I do agree, but the situation did also call for it.
Her grandmother had to downsize and she's on Social Security.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, it is what it is.

Speaker 5 No, no, I mean, I'm just

Speaker 5 trying to be judgy. I'm just saying she's got a cush situation.
And so she's right to say, I don't have to, because she doesn't. You're still, you're not agreeing.

Speaker 3 I was with my mother a couple years ago, but I decided I wanted more for myself. That's right.

Speaker 2 So, Chris, does this change

Speaker 2 from a relationship standpoint? That's the problem. Yeah.
And this is, I mean, call me old school. This is where the complication happens when you act like you're married and you're not, right?

Speaker 2 And you're moving in together, right? And all of it. Like, this is what ends up happening that it's not as easy as, like, oh, I found this kind of thing about

Speaker 2 my girlfriend. And

Speaker 2 this may be a deal breaker, but I need to figure it out on a couple more hangouts. And now I'm going to call it quits.
Now it's much harder to call it quits when

Speaker 2 she's living there, right? So

Speaker 2 this is part of that complication. So,

Speaker 2 does it give you,

Speaker 2 as the, as the kids would call it, a beige flag or a red flag

Speaker 2 when it comes to like her work ethic and who she is? Like, are you starting to see other parts of her that concern you for a long-term relationship?

Speaker 3 The thing is, I see myself and her from a few years ago. So I was in the same situation with my mom, but I had that realization.

Speaker 3 Unfortunately, I don't know how to help her come to that point.

Speaker 5 So as two old old married people will tell you you can't

Speaker 5 give it yeah we just give it to you for free

Speaker 5 the earlier and quicker you can realize you can't make somebody that you love and care about come to any sort of realization and you can't think oh if i can just have the right phrase the light bulb will come on if i could just have that right that right sit down she'll see it if i just say it the right way or i want something i wanted something more for my life and now look at me, that's not how most of the world works.

Speaker 5 Most people want to take the easiest path possible and she has that with you.

Speaker 5 Right. But my guess is that beyond the money part, like going back to what Rachel's saying, this is an integrity issue.
This is a character issue.

Speaker 5 This is like, oh my gosh, this is going to show up with kids. This is going to show up with

Speaker 2 her holidays.

Speaker 5 Yeah. It's always going to be a thing that she didn't want to do it.
She's just not going to. And we're seeing that in real time.
She doesn't want more for her life.

Speaker 2 And that's hard just to be able to do it. And again, Chris, we're not talking about that.
We're saying, oh, my gosh, she has to go be this boss babe and go make six figures. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 She just needs to pay bills. Well,

Speaker 2 even deeper than that.

Speaker 2 Y'all had an agreement.

Speaker 5 Forget the working part. Like, y'all made an agreement.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Here's who we're going to we're going to move in together and here's who we're going to be and five or six months in she's like yeah i'm not doing that were the were the expectations chris pretty clear moving in?

Speaker 2 Or if she was on the phone, would she say, no, that's not what we talked about? What would she say?

Speaker 4 I mean, I had

Speaker 3 explained that I would take care of her until she got her stuff together. But so the, you know, the agreement was that she would.

Speaker 3 But now at this point, you know, she's, she moved in at her friends temporarily, and she thinks that that's the better option. But I don't see that as the case.

Speaker 5 You said she moved in with her friends.

Speaker 2 We need to figure out how to,

Speaker 3 I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 She moved in with her friends?

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 3 And her friend has all her bills paid by her parents.

Speaker 2 So she, she's moved out of the city.

Speaker 2 Oh, y'all aren't living together anymore?

Speaker 3 As of a few days ago. Oh,

Speaker 2 did you kick her out? What happened?

Speaker 3 No, just I confronted her about it again.

Speaker 2 And she got mad and left.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 So you've made a lot of more moves than I was thinking. Good for you.

Speaker 3 Well, now I'm wondering,

Speaker 3 or which that's not up to y'all, but

Speaker 5 yeah.

Speaker 5 Here's the thing. I want you to have a little bit of

Speaker 5 time just with Chris.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 5 And I want you to actually sit down and be honest with yourself. And it's going to be tough because you're emotional.
You feel the pain. You love this person.
You care about this person.

Speaker 5 You had, here's the hardest part. You had plans with this person.

Speaker 5 Right? You started creating pictures for tomorrow and this person was in those pictures and Then it was revealed this person doesn't want that same life that you want

Speaker 5 and Then this person just bailed on you when you said hey I want to sit down and have this conversation

Speaker 5 and So just because something hurts doesn't mean it's not the right move But I want you to be honest with yourself and by the way me and my wife broke up three or four I don't know five times when we were dating So that doesn't mean it's over either but yeah and she has popped out before you know she just she gets scared

Speaker 3 her emotions, I think.

Speaker 5 I think the deeper question is, what's this life we're building together? What's it going to look like? And is she a kind of person you want to build a life with?

Speaker 5 And I think you having the courage to be honest and say, so far, no.

Speaker 5 Because when the going gets hard, you kind of just don't want to do anything. And she might say, I want someone that's just going to take care of me and do whatever I want, whenever I want it.

Speaker 5 And I want to be a princess. And you can say, amazing.
It's not going to be my, I don't want to ride or die like that. And you get to choose, you both get to choose that.

Speaker 2 Perfect. Right?

Speaker 5 And that may mean that both of you end up heartbroken for a season.

Speaker 3 Yeah, sounds like that's it.

Speaker 5 But I hate it for you.

Speaker 3 Well, that's okay.

Speaker 5 Can I tell you,

Speaker 5 most people wouldn't have the courage to do what you did

Speaker 5 to sit down and say, hey, here's what we agreed on. Here's what I want.
Are you still in? And she said, no.

Speaker 5 Most people go ahead and go go ahead and get married, and they figure this out in your five or six or seven with two kids when they're just, they've had enough.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But that doesn't make your pain today feel any better. I'm sorry, man.

Speaker 2 I hate it for you.

Speaker 2 I hate it for you.

Speaker 5 Can I give you one homework assignment?

Speaker 5 Sure. How old are you again? 26, did you say?

Speaker 5 26.

Speaker 5 I want you tonight by yourself.

Speaker 5 No alcohol, nothing. I want you to write a letter to 30-year-old Chris.

Speaker 5 Okay. Okay.
And I want you to tell him the things that you started to do today so that he could have the life he had when he was 30. And if she's in that picture, then go call her tomorrow.

Speaker 5 But I want you to be clear about what you want your house to feel like, the partnership you have with a romantic partner.

Speaker 5 I want you, like financially, what is this thing going to look like when you're 30? And what must be true today so you can begin taking those steps?

Speaker 5 You're just going to reverse engineer it, but I want you to write a letter to yourself.

Speaker 5 Okay? Put it in a drawer somewhere and open it when you're 30.

Speaker 5 But it's a way to get your head out of this immediate pain and this immediate motion and get your head back up on the horizon and say, okay, what needs to be true for tomorrow?

Speaker 2 Okay?

Speaker 3 Okay. I'll give that a try.
All right.

Speaker 5 Appreciate you, man. Thanks, Chris.
Best of luck to you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And always remember when you're setting a very reasonable boundary or expectation for someone, you're not being cruel.
Like, this is the world, and we have to pay bills.

Speaker 2 we have to do things, right? So you're not asking this like insane request, right? I mean, this is pretty basic stuff, Chris. So I don't want you to feel like the bad guy in it.

Speaker 2 I mean, seriously, it's, I don't know, it's pretty basic, but I'm proud of you and like really encouraged that you had the courage to set that boundary in a, hopefully a very kind way, which I think you did.

Speaker 2 You seem like a great guy. So sorry, Chris, but glad you called in.
Hope we could help.

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Be careful with that. But yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 Hey, let's go out to Honolulu and talk to the MAX. What's up, Max?

Speaker 4 Hey, how are you doing? Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 2 You bet.

Speaker 2 How's Hawaii, Max?

Speaker 4 It's nice. It's nice.

Speaker 2 Sunny.

Speaker 5 You're not Max Holloway, are you? One of my heroes?

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 6 All right.

Speaker 5 What's up?

Speaker 4 All right. I was calling because

Speaker 4 something happened where my brother kind of holds a lot of anger towards me because he got fired from his job and I had to take it over.

Speaker 4 And I'm getting ready to move out now and I'm worried it's going to cause like more family disconnect. So I'm just trying to get some help navigating the situation.

Speaker 2 Is it a family business?

Speaker 4 It's like a financial and family thing. I'm going to own the business.
No, it's somebody we know that he worked for.

Speaker 2 What is it? What kind of job? What kind of business is it?

Speaker 4 It's a pool cleaning job. Okay.
I take home about like 50 a year, so it's pretty good.

Speaker 2 50 a year. And why did he get fired?

Speaker 4 He had gone on a trip for an extended leave, and I was covering it for him. And the boss at the end of it decided to fire him and offered me the job.

Speaker 5 Oh, man. So you did a better job?

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 2 it was just like he didn't break a rule. You just out-cleaned the pools and the boss was like, I kind of want you instead.

Speaker 4 There were some issues with him, and that was a part of it. I wasn't sure if my brother would even be let back after anyways, but okay, okay.

Speaker 5 So what is his beef with you that you weren't right or die? Like, yeah, forget these guys.

Speaker 5 Is that the beef?

Speaker 4 I think what happened was he's just feeling like he lost out on a good opportunity.

Speaker 2 He did.

Speaker 4 And he wasn't a good worker. He's not going to be the blame for it, And it's me.
He wants to blame me for it instead of himself.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 I'm okay with that. The main issue is the money from the job helps financially support my family.
I come from like a single mom household. And I'm 19.

Speaker 4 I'm trying to move out and be on my own, which would mean that I wouldn't have the same amount of money for my mom anymore. And I'm worried that's going to create even more of a family disconnect.

Speaker 4 So I don't really know what to do.

Speaker 2 What's your mom do?

Speaker 4 She's a cleaner. She works like two jobs cleaning.

Speaker 2 Okay. How much does she make?

Speaker 4 I'm not sure exactly. I think I went over it with her one time.

Speaker 2 Okay. How much does she, how much difference does she need? Does she, like, how much are you covering the bills in the house?

Speaker 4 I'm contributing about, it was about $1,500 because I was paying off some debt on the water bill. And then now it's like...

Speaker 4 to about $1,300. I pay some of rent.
I buy all of our food and I cover the water.

Speaker 5 she does she have other struggles Max

Speaker 4 um no I mean I think like with addiction or with mental health challenges

Speaker 2 do I um no I I don't oh sorry what was that di di d I'm asking does she have no not not with addiction or mental health okay so she just um yeah what why why have you become the caretaker of your of your of your um mom

Speaker 4 I I think it's just it it's really expensive here and it's hard to afford to live out here if you aren't making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Speaker 5 Exactly.

Speaker 4 And I have two, the main thing is that

Speaker 4 my mom, I think she'd be fine her own, but I have two younger sisters and that's where I feel weird leaving. I feel like I'm abandoning them.

Speaker 2 How old are they?

Speaker 4 They're 11. They turned 11 yesterday.

Speaker 5 Is it at a point where you need to sit down with your mom and have a hard conversation about the financial realities?

Speaker 4 So, I have about six months ago, and I've been keeping up. I told her six months ago I plan on moving out in March.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 And she hasn't really done any much action towards figuring out another situation.

Speaker 4 So, I don't know if I should just stay and keep helping so that we can stay, they can stay in their house or if I should just go on and you know, put my oxygen mask on before theirs, you know.

Speaker 2 Man, well, I just feel like Max, that I mean, you've put yourself in a caretaker's role at 19. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And it's heroic, right? In one sense. I mean, you've really stepped up and helped your mom, but this will be your whole life unless something else changes.

Speaker 2 And I feel like that's unfair to you in your life, in your future family,

Speaker 2 to feel like you have to be the one to carry this burden. And I understand, obviously, why that is,

Speaker 2 but long term, I just don't think it's fair for you to play this role.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think I've come to a similar conclusion. I just feel like I'm like.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah. What do you do? Does your mom like lose the house with your two little sisters, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, and then it's like, where do they go? We have family here, and I'm sure they could move in with my grandparents or something.

Speaker 2 But hold on, hold on.

Speaker 5 Your mom also plays an integral part of this.

Speaker 5 If you told me, hey, my mom really struggles with addiction and my mom struggles with some mental or emotional health disorders, then I would tell you, like, man, life handed you a mess.

Speaker 5 And it's just, it might be a season, right? It may be that you're going to stay at home for a few years and see these young girls until they get older, right? That's not the case.

Speaker 5 Your mom's making some choices on a daily basis as to where she's going to work and how much money she's going to make and what she's going to ask of her 19-year-old son.

Speaker 5 And so you're making decisions for an adult, and that's not your job.

Speaker 5 Your job is, unfortunately, you've been cast in the roll to make sure your 11-year-old little sisters have food and water, which is never your job, but here we are, right?

Speaker 5 And so, man,

Speaker 5 you're a man of noble character.

Speaker 5 But I want you to hear what Rachel's saying. Five years from now, what would be better?

Speaker 5 For you to have started pool cleaning and also gone to get a couple of community college classes on the side, and five years from now, you've got an associate's degree and now you've got four employees of your own and you're making $200,000.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 5 you're still making $50,000. This guy had to lay you off because business got slow, and now you're making $35,000, and you're in the same bedroom in the same house, except you're 24 years old.

Speaker 5 Like, if you think on a longer time horizon, what's the best thing you can do for your family? It might be to go. spread your wings and fly.

Speaker 4 I think so too. I think I just needed some like,

Speaker 4 I didn't feel like I was crazy or leaving it.

Speaker 2 No, you're not crazy.

Speaker 5 You're going to feel guilty.

Speaker 2 Because it sounds unkind. Yeah, it sounds unkind.
You're going to feel guilty. Yeah.
Like it sounds like, oh my gosh, I'm abandoning my family.

Speaker 2 But what I want to relieve you of is that was never supposed to be your role. And like John said, if there was like a dire situation of something,

Speaker 2 that's another conversation. But yeah, I mean, like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a grown-up problem that your mom, who has two daughters at home, should be the one calling the show and saying,

Speaker 2 I can't pay my bills. What do I need? What can I do?

Speaker 2 And looking at her budget and all of that. And I think you can help guide that, Max, but you can't even change the way she handles money either because you don't have that ability.

Speaker 2 We don't have the ability to change people.

Speaker 5 Here's where I think you can get some peace in this transaction, okay? Number one, you're going to feel guilty. Just know that's coming.
Okay.

Speaker 5 You may have heard me say this on the show. Choose guilt over resentment every time.

Speaker 5 If you just stay there and wither, you're going to resent your mom and that's not fair to her. So choose guilt.
The second second thing is come up with a number

Speaker 5 and sit down and tell your mom for six months, I'm going to send $1,000 home. I'm going to send $750 home and make sure that everybody's clear on when this money is coming and give her a ramp.

Speaker 5 You'll sleep a little better at night, I think, and it's going to be not just a cutoff, but it will be

Speaker 5 a peaceful departure. I'm sorry, my brother.
Let us know if we can help.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. The question of the day comes from YReFi.
The Ramsey Show,

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Speaker 5 All right, today's question comes from Justin in Virginia. Justin writes, how can I stop being jealous of how much my siblings and in-laws earn?

Speaker 5 My wife and I have no debt and a really good household income. We're happy in our careers.
We're not missing out on anything due to how much we earn.

Speaker 5 I just can't figure out how to not be so triggered and frustrated by other people's income.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 5 That's a very self-aware question.

Speaker 2 Very interesting. Yes.

Speaker 5 What do you think, Rachel?

Speaker 5 Gosh.

Speaker 2 And I'm curious how he, I wonder if he knows the actual number of the income or if he is making up a story in his head that they're making a ton because of how they're living. Gotcha.

Speaker 2 Because lifestyle and income are obviously two different things.

Speaker 2 So I'd be curious on that. What's causing you to think that they're earning more? Is it because of how they live their life?

Speaker 2 And kind of the sucky part is when you live your life responsibly for a season, it's not going to look flashy. Eventually, you'll start to build wealth and you can enjoy it.

Speaker 2 But there is kind of that season of grounding, which is where you guys are.

Speaker 2 But if you know the number and you're like, oh, no, they make half a million or whatever, crazy a year.

Speaker 2 I mean, I've learned, John, when moments like that come up for me, and it's not income necessarily, it could be, but I don't, I don't hear people's income a lot, but a situation that they're experiencing something that I want to experience, as much as I can muster up just celebrating them, it's amazing how that fades quickly where the eyes off are off of me, my eyes are off of me.

Speaker 2 And you can just be excited for somebody, right? Genuinely. And it doesn't always come easy, I don't think.

Speaker 2 But when you can just be happy for them and hopefully maybe they're in a great career that's helping other people or something, I don't know.

Speaker 2 You can find like the silver lining and what they're doing and being excited. But the fact that you're being triggered constantly, I'm wondering,

Speaker 2 you know, your level of contentment is obviously not fully baked, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I have found that I always want to pull the string that's attached to that story.

Speaker 5 And somewhere in Justin's heart and mind, the dollar amount that you earn every year is attached to value, to how much you're worth. Yep.
Yep. And somebody told you that somewhere.

Speaker 5 And I found it helpful to get to the, like, where did that story come from?

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 5 Dad used to tell older brother how great he was because he made $6 an hour. I only made $5, like whatever that story is.

Speaker 5 But the other thing is, I think you're right. I think, Justin, it'd be pretty cool to out of the blue, write your siblings a letter and just say, I just need you know, I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 5 I see how hard you're working, and I see what an amazing.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 instead of when you feel that jealousy, our tendency is to pull away instead of go towards that person to celebrate them. And our bodies have a way of adjusting for that proximity.
Like

Speaker 5 we're in support, and it just over time realizes, I don't have to, we're not in competition. I don't have to fight you.
I have a great life. One other quick thing, often when you are creating a life,

Speaker 5 I'll say it like this, that is less alive.

Speaker 5 When you are in a, we go to work, we make this much money, we have this couch, we have this house, we have this car.

Speaker 5 We were supposed to be happy here.

Speaker 5 It's easy to put your eyes up and start looking for what other people have that you don't.

Speaker 5 And it often, over the course of my life, when I found myself jealous in certain places, it has often brought me and my wife back to the table to say, what life are we creating for ourselves?

Speaker 5 And where do we find excitement and aliveness and adventure and

Speaker 2 um joy in our home because it's not it i'm starting to look forward to places yes right yeah and it almost always comes back to we've become co-managers of our house such a great that's a good point and so the stagnant like being stagnant yeah in life and i think we've gone through seasons of that of that yeah you look up and you're like oh my gosh we've just been doing the same thing and there's not as much laughter or joy or levity, right?

Speaker 2 That's right. That's right.

Speaker 2 But when you say, no, we're putting the phones away, we're doing family game night and we're going to do this stupid game that's so silly, but everyone ends up laughing, right?

Speaker 2 You just do these things.

Speaker 2 And they don't have to be expensive.

Speaker 2 Gosh, it was last break before the summer, though. I think it was spring.
And we took all the kids and we went to a local high school, like parking lot, ran them with bikes.

Speaker 2 And they still talk about it. Like, do you remember we rode bikes at a parking lot?

Speaker 2 And I was like, you ride bikes all the time, but it was like this, like, I don't know, it was so like, it was so small and insignificant, but to them, right?

Speaker 2 It brought this like other magic of like this new place or whatever it was for them. But it's those things that again, it doesn't have to cost money.

Speaker 2 You don't have to go travel to Europe to do that. Like, find it in your home.
Um, because gosh, we need it, all of us, right? Especially this time of year when it's election season and everything.

Speaker 2 We're just like, oh my gosh, give me some levity and enjoyment with the people that you love.

Speaker 5 But it's recognizing levity and joy

Speaker 5 for 99% of us is a choice. Yeah.
There are people in abusive situations, yes. There are people who are in deep poverty.
Yes. There are people who are abjectly on the margins, yes.

Speaker 5 But for most of us, we go home and we look at our spouse and we choose what happens next. We choose how we respond.
We choose our frustration.

Speaker 5 We choose to not pick up the trash, not put our clothes away. We choose to just watch TV, just sit there on our phones.
All of those are choices. And that means we can choose something different.
Yep.

Speaker 5 And so, Justin, I challenge you to sit down with your wife and y'all reimagine your life.

Speaker 5 And you might end up in the exact same space, but the exercise of reimagining it, what adventures do we want to create inside of our own home? Even for no money.

Speaker 2 What does that look like? Totally.

Speaker 5 It can rearrange everything. And write your siblings a letter, a handwritten letter.

Speaker 2 That's a good exercise.

Speaker 5 How freaking proud of them you are.

Speaker 2 It's so cool. It's going to swallow some pride to do that, right?

Speaker 2 When you're in a state of or it opens your heart up and you realize that it does, but that takes a okay,

Speaker 2 I'm going to celebrate something that is not always fun for me, right? But you start to learn it. So good.
All right, up next, we have Dan in Eugene, oregon hey dan welcome to the show

Speaker 3 hi rachel hey john how are you we're doing great how are you i'm i'm uh

Speaker 3 oh head of not great number of years i guess um my my question

Speaker 3 my question for you is how do i calculate when i can feasibly retire and or when I can start to plan a second career. And the rough years

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 I'm about three years into being a widow, widower.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 3 I have three kids. Two of them will go to college.
I owe $3.80 on my house.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I sort of, as I was sort of looking at, as I don't know, I guess getting our lives back in order over the last number of years,

Speaker 3 one of the Ramsey quotes of why don't they teach this stuff in school

Speaker 3 is of like, you know, how do you even calculate

Speaker 3 what is the right trajectory? And now that I'm doing it for

Speaker 3 alone, one and two is for myself,

Speaker 3 it's a

Speaker 3 alone, I guess I should say, or as a single person.

Speaker 2 Sure. Yeah.
How old are you, Dan?

Speaker 3 I'm 48.

Speaker 2 48. Okay.

Speaker 5 Hey, Dan, before Rachel's going to walk you through the numbers of it, can I challenge you on something?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And this might be a harder exercise than the math problem.

Speaker 5 Sure. But I would love for you to spend some time.
And unfortunately, I don't know that you can do this with anybody other than just taking Dan out on a retreat.

Speaker 5 But I would love for you to figure out or ask yourself, what do you want it to feel like when you walk in your front door at the age of 55?

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's cool. Because I want you to ask yourself, what kind of life do you want to have at 55? Because that's going to determine the math problem.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I think when you get to the numbers really quick, Dan, we only have about 40 seconds, so I'm sorry for the short call.

Speaker 2 It's going to be looking at what do you have in retirement now and then averaging out, you know, average returns, 10 to 12%, whatever that looks like, and knowing your lifestyle, to John's point, how much is it going to take to run your household at retirements?

Speaker 2 And what is it going to look like to be able to,

Speaker 2 you know, you have to calculate inflation and all of that. Now, if you have not sat down with a Smart Vestor Pro, I would do that.

Speaker 2 You can go to to ramseysolutions.com and find one in your area because I want to be able to see all of your numbers, everything that you have in retirement, including this house and what's going to be the best bet to get you in a place.

Speaker 2 But again, it's lifestyle, it's return on the market and inflation that goes up every year is kind of determining factors. So thanks for the call.
Thanks to everyone in the booth, John.

Speaker 2 Thanks for a great hour. This is the Ramsey Show.
Hey guys, I'm Jade Warshaw and I want to talk to you for a second about student loan refinancing.

Speaker 2 Okay, if your payment and interest rate are burying you and you feel like you can't dig out, refinancing your student loan might make sense because a lower rate could help you free up more money in your budget and a shorter term could help you pay down your debt faster.

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Speaker 2 There, you'll find helpful resources like a student loan rate table, a refinancing calculator, and other tools. Plus, you can get an initial rate in just a few minutes.

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Speaker 2 Listen, not everybody should refinance their student loan. So make sure you run the numbers, but for some people, it's the right move.

Speaker 2 Learn more at laurelroad.com/slash Ramsey to find out more about their student loan refinancing. That's laurelroad.com slash Ramsey.

Speaker 5 Live from Nashville, Tennessee, this is the Ramsey Show, where we talk about your money, your loves, your relationships, and your life.

Speaker 5 I'm John Deloney, joined by number one best-selling author, Rachel Cruz. And we're taking your calls on just about everything.

Speaker 5 triple eight eight two five two two five triple eight eight two five five two two five if you're joining us in the Ramsey network app welcome we are glad you are here let's go out to Detroit Rock City and talk to Ken what's up Ken

Speaker 3 hey how are you guys doing dude we're rocking on to the break of dawn brother what's up all right I guess uh my question would be that um

Speaker 3 Here in Detroit, yeah, I have a pretty good income, one income household, family of three kids, married, and it just seems like living paycheck to paycheck can't seem to get ahead.

Speaker 3 It just kind of almost feels like we're struggling here.

Speaker 5 When you say pretty good income,

Speaker 5 I found on the show some people think that means a million bucks, and some people think that means 40,000. What's a pretty good income?

Speaker 3 We're at about 275 to 300K a year with my income.

Speaker 2 Okay, in Detroit, right?

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, we classify that as

Speaker 5 pretty good.

Speaker 5 Or in the global sense, the top of the top of the top, teeny tiny percent of one percent. Yeah, so you're crushing.

Speaker 2 That's great. So, Ken, what's so you're saying that you feel like you guys are still living paycheck to paycheck, even with this?

Speaker 2 Have you guys dug into any numbers? Do you know why that this is happening?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm pretty,

Speaker 3 I try to stay up on the numbers. And

Speaker 3 we got a lot of debt. We got a lot of student debt.
I went back to school for anesthesia, so I'm a nurse.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So I'm sitting on probably, I'm right about $181,000 in student loan debt.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 What other debt is there?

Speaker 3 So we got that. We owe $200,000 on the house, $203,000

Speaker 3 on the house.

Speaker 3 We at one point took out a 401k loan, which we still owe $45,000 on.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 I have a HELOC loan, which another $17,000 on that.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 And about $20,000 in credit cards.

Speaker 2 Okay. What about cars?

Speaker 3 Cars, we have two leases. They were both three-year leases.

Speaker 3 One we still owe $13,000 on, and the other one we owe $10,000.

Speaker 2 How much a month are you guys paying those leases? How much are the payments?

Speaker 3 One of the payments is $415 a month, and the other one's about $460,000.

Speaker 5 About $1,000.

Speaker 2 Yeah. All right.

Speaker 5 Rachel's going to walk you through this.

Speaker 5 Can I tell you something? I've spent a lot of my career sitting behind closed doors with medical professionals. And

Speaker 5 can I tell you, you're not crazy?

Speaker 5 Is that cool?

Speaker 5 You're not enough.

Speaker 2 I mean, that helps.

Speaker 5 Here's what you've done. You've done exactly what they told you to do.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 They gave you some

Speaker 5 quippy things like cars are depreciating assets. You never want to own them, so just lease them.
You're going to buy new ones anyway.

Speaker 5 You got to buy a house that looks like this because they can't take it away from you if you ever get in super trouble.

Speaker 5 And hey, if you can make this money, but you got to go back to school, of course you do.

Speaker 5 And it just keeps going and going. And you look up and you make

Speaker 5 a little over a quarter million dollars a year and you can't breathe and it doesn't make any sense. So hear me say you're not nuts.

Speaker 5 Also hear me say you can get out of it. Like the path out of this is not difficult.
It'll be, it'll suck, but it's not hard. Okay.

Speaker 5 But it's going to take two years of you deciding to live a radically different life for just 24 months or so, maybe 36 months, but I think 24 months, given you can work extra shifts.

Speaker 5 And I think you can clean this up and set an entirely new trajectory for your home. Because what your home doesn't have right now, you've got everything in your house.
You don't have any peace.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Is that fair?

Speaker 3 Yeah. No,

Speaker 2 that's correct. Okay.

Speaker 5 If you and your wife can settle on that being the goal, not the cars, not the house, if you settle on, I want to walk in from work and I want everyone to be happy that I'm here.

Speaker 5 I want to walk in from work with a smile on my face, not with my head slumped over, it's going to take about 24 rough months and you can get there.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I just know too many people who are...

Speaker 5 Too many people in the medical profession who are dropping their kids off for college and they still have their own student loans.

Speaker 2 That's just madness.

Speaker 2 It's madness.

Speaker 5 Those are my friends, by the way, bro. Like, it's just, it just is.
So you're not crazy.

Speaker 2 All right. Yeah.
And Ken, and I think y'all's situation, too, it is the perfect picture of just like this lifestyle creep, right?

Speaker 2 I'm like, you're just, you just, a little bit here, a little bit there, out of car, go on vacation, go out to, like, we're just making good money because you're bringing home probably, what, $28,000 a month or so?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, and it depends, too, because I can, I mean, that's with a little bit of overtime, but

Speaker 2 it's consistent. Right, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you look at that, just your monthly take-home, and you're like, man,

Speaker 2 you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot you can do with it, but also, like John's saying, the normalization of like, yeah, but we could spend that.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, it's the classic idea that your income is not the issue for most people, it is your money habits and the way that you handle your money.

Speaker 2 And so that magnification is exactly what you guys are experiencing. So it's like, yeah, we'll get two nice cars.
We'll do this. We'll get a little bit more debt.

Speaker 2 And it's just payment, payment, payment, payment, payment, payment. So a lot of this income is going to these payments.
So clearing all of it up, I think is key.

Speaker 2 And I think you and your wife sitting down just as an experiment and just say, what if we made 100 grand, which again is above the average household income that is 80 grand.

Speaker 5 Nobody's starving.

Speaker 2 So even a fun, you know, even more of a fun exercise, just put 80 grand and say, okay, if we brought in 80 grand a year, what it comes out to per month,

Speaker 2 how can we live on that? Like live on that. And then extra from that of what you actually bring in is going to be thrown at the debt or whatever it looks like.

Speaker 2 But just, you know, I think it's always a fun experiment for married couples to sit down and do this, like play the income game and just see how much can we actually, if we had to do this, how much, what would our life look like if we had to live on 60 grand a year, on 50 grand a year, on 70 grand a year?

Speaker 2 And then the great thing about you, Ken, is that's not what you guys are making. So the margin is there.
It's just the choice of lifestyle. And so

Speaker 2 getting your lifestyle wrapped and under control is going to be number one. And it is going to feel like a shock because it's not going to be going out to eat.

Speaker 2 It's going to be shopping at Aldi, not Whole Foods. It's going to be, I mean, you're going to be living, right? Like you're making 70 to 80.
And that's how you're going to clean it up.

Speaker 2 You're not going to clean it up by just kind of here and there. And we'll just, we'll kind of do it, but we're still going to go, we're going to still go on vacation.

Speaker 2 We're still going to go out to the nice, you know, date nights that we want and drop 200 bucks. Like you can't do that.
Like if you're going to do this, you have to radically do it.

Speaker 2 And so you and your wife sitting down and saying, okay, here's our budget for the next two years and mapping that out and mapping out your lifestyle.

Speaker 2 And then from there, starting to pay off these debts, smallest to largest.

Speaker 2 And what's wild, again, about that income coming in, I'm like, you know, you guys could clean up the HELOC in two to three months. You could clean up all the credit card debt in two to three months.

Speaker 2 I mean, like, you can make a lot of really big progress, Ken, if you guys decide to do it. And then the hope on the other end, we always talk about you live like no one else.

Speaker 2 It's not going to be fun, but you guys can do this. Even the big mountain of the $180,000 student loan, you know, you can get it cleaned up.

Speaker 2 And if you live like no one else, later you're bringing in 30, you know, 30 grand a month. You can do whatever you want.
Yeah, you can do whatever you want. Now you get to do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 But I would see, you know, talk to the car company and look at your leases. Leases are always a little bit more confusing of the buyout and everything.

Speaker 2 But if you can get out of those, I mean, just do what you can to dwindle down this debt like as fast as possible, Ken. And you guys will see the progress.

Speaker 2 It's just going to be up to you all if you want to really do this. But the math is there.

Speaker 5 It's going to work. Math is easy.
And you're going to take every shift. You're going to miss little league games.
You're going to do whatever it takes for 24 months.

Speaker 2 And make a crap ton of money and pay this off. Are free forever.

Speaker 5 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hey guys, Rachel Cruz here. All right, I'm about to say what everyone already knows, but budgeting is a good thing to do.
Now, actually starting, well, that's where people freeze up.

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Speaker 2 Every dollar keeps budgeting simple and stress-free just the way you want it so go download the app for free and get started today again go download every dollar today all right dave you have some strong opinions

Speaker 1 possibly yeah i think so okay because you really prefer credit unions over big banks well credit unions for one thing are uh non-profit, which means that the members, the customers, own the credit union.

Speaker 1 So any profits that the credit union makes goes back into customer pricing. So you get better interest rate on savings, cheaper checking, and so on, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 And but that's what's more important than that, though, is the fact that the customer is the owner changes the spirit on the credit union.

Speaker 1 So I find very few credit unions that aren't very customer-centric.

Speaker 2 Well, and I think we have found one that is incredible, and that's Fairwinds. They are an incredible credit union that is really out with the heart to help the customer.

Speaker 1 They're the right kind of people with the right kind of values. And they've done a really, really good job with customer service.
And the deals that they're offering, the Ramsey tribe is incredible.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. And I love that the things that we teach, they so line up with.
And you're right, their customer service is unbelievable. Winston and I just signed up and we got an account.

Speaker 2 And I'm not kidding. It took less than five minutes.
It was so user-friendly, like the step-by-step approach was unbelievable. And then the next day, my phone rings and it says fair wins on my phone.

Speaker 2 So I answered it and talked to someone there. And they they said, yeah, they give calls to every new customer.
And so again, they just really care about your experience.

Speaker 2 And I, I so, so appreciate that. Plus anything that you can do at a traditional branch, you can do with them at fairwinds.org or on their app.
And you'll have free access to over 33,000 ATMs.

Speaker 1 Hey, you guys know how much I hate banks in general. And so for me to do this is a big deal.

Speaker 1 Talk to our friends at Fairwinds and check out the combined checking and savings bundle that they created just for the Ramsey tribe. You guys, it's incredible.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Home ownership is something that

Speaker 2 we believe should be part of your financial plan, but it's really hard these days. The price of houses and the housing market is absolutely insane.

Speaker 2 But when you do it the right way, when you buy a home the right way, it brings you peace. It's not a burden.
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Speaker 2 So, to find a Ramsey trusted real estate agent for free, go to ramseysolutions.com slash agent and check them out. All right, up next, we have Scott in Pittsburgh.
Hey, Scott, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hi, thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. How can we help?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've loaned $80,000 to my cousin for his house flipping business through multiple notarized promissory notes over the last four years.

Speaker 3 I've received that $80,000 back, but none of the $45,000 in interest. My cousin recently informed me that his business is in trouble.

Speaker 3 He lives four hours away, has four kids, a rocky marriage, and other debt. So he's not rich to say the least.
He now won't return any of my calls or text.

Speaker 3 And I saw some legal counsel, and all of the notes have a confession to judgment clause. So legally, we're good even to not go to court to get a judgment.
So that's in my

Speaker 3 favor.

Speaker 3 That side of the family has a lot of crazy in it to the extent that one individual is a little crazy, a little dangerous to be around.

Speaker 3 Personally, my wife and I are in baby step seven. We have four kids, two high-stress jobs, and extremely active social life in our church.

Speaker 3 So part of me says, just let this go and go focus on your life. But another part of me says, go get the money that you've earned in interest, especially since he won't call you back.

Speaker 3 I feel like I've let my wife down on this decision, even though we haven't really lost any money. So I'm just wondering what path should I go down and how do I emotionally accept that path?

Speaker 5 One time,

Speaker 5 well, I won't tell that story. That's a personal story.

Speaker 5 Scott, walk away.

Speaker 2 Walk away.

Speaker 5 And I think the making peace is making peace with yourself because you knew this was a real possibility before you did this.

Speaker 5 Yep.

Speaker 5 And you tried to cover yourself with a bunch of legal paperwork and you had a family member that you probably kind of deep down knew was going to do this looked at you and said, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 5 And I don't think you let anybody down. I think it's a story you're telling yourself to kind of cover over the fact that you kind of feel like you got what you knew was probably going to happen.

Speaker 5 And so I'd make peace with it. Don't ever loan family members money again.
And let's go on about our life.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 5 Thank you. I mean, does that feel right?

Speaker 3 It does.

Speaker 3 It's kind of where I thought I was, but the whole, like, just not calling and texting back after like a four-year relationship where we had a great back and forth and, you know, money was exchanged both ways and things felt very comfortable.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, all of a sudden it was just like, okay, it's, it's gone.

Speaker 5 But that means you're going to try to go get your interest because you're mad.

Speaker 2 Don't do that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Don't do that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And it's one of those things, not to say told you so, but we always tell people, even if you got it and even if you're close, don't borrow money because it changes the relationship.

Speaker 5 And now there's something wedged between you and it's shame.

Speaker 5 And it's really hard to overcome. and so even if you send him a handwritten letter that just say your debts forgiven i wish you the best and go on about your life

Speaker 3 yeah

Speaker 2 i know and the story i'm playing in my head scott i could be wrong is he's probably panicking right i mean he he has four kids he has been like yeah i mean he's yeah he's he's fearful i mean he his fear you know radar is up all the way and he probably can't even emotionally and the fact you know go there the fact that you're family too that adds a whole other dynamic or the one guy guy he went to for help, he can't even do that anymore because he's, there's 45,000 bucks between the two of you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I, and I know there's probably some justice in you, Scott, even the way you laid out the question.
Oh, you're mad.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I can tell that you're, yeah, you're pissed. You're like, man, this is, this isn't fair, right? Fair would be, I'm owed this money and

Speaker 2 why am I not getting it, right? But, but I think John's right. I think there is a...

Speaker 2 kind of a humble pill to swallow to say, okay, I'm going to, I want to move about my, move along with my because you can, right?

Speaker 2 Financially speaking, you guys are on babysp seven, you are, you're fine. Is this the quote-unquote like justice play? It's not.

Speaker 2 The justice play would be to take him to court and continue to wring out, you know, the money that he doesn't have and take his family through.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, and you could, but you would definitely for sure,

Speaker 2 you know, lose that relationship. And in the end, I don't know if that's worth $45,000 of your time and your energy and your mental capacity.

Speaker 3 Yeah, agreed.

Speaker 3 I would say we didn't have a whole lot of relationship even, you know, even before that,

Speaker 3 considering like we were just four hours away.

Speaker 3 Not, you know, a strong relationship,

Speaker 3 but it's, it's just a strange situation

Speaker 3 because of how great things were going for four years and even talking together about projects that he was working on. And

Speaker 3 then it's just like all gone.

Speaker 2 Do you know what happened to his business? I'm just curious if... If he just did bad deals or what?

Speaker 3 Same story that Dave always talks through, right? He had a partner. The partner skipped town.
The whole business was on him, and he couldn't keep the whole business afloat. So,

Speaker 3 you know, went from being very profitable over four years to, you know, taking a step back over the last like 18 months or so. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Send him a letter that just says, hey, brother, you're freed. I'm tearing up the promissory notes, and I wish you the best.

Speaker 5 All right. And I think you'll feel a weight off your shoulders.
And by the way, next time

Speaker 5 you'll feel that sense of injustice, and it's right.

Speaker 5 So you're not crazy. There's nothing wrong with you, whatever.
You'll get that little angry moments every now and then, but you got your money back. Count your blessings.

Speaker 5 And yes, walk away.

Speaker 2 So sorry. All right, John, I'm going to take a question from the Ramsey Network app, those of you that are listening.
And this question is one, again, when you do this, you don't have to call in.

Speaker 2 You just click the link in the show notes and download the app for free, which you guys have done because you're listening there.

Speaker 2 But this question is: I determined my why statement is to help people heal so that they can be free. And this has become a motivation for a career change to become a mental health counselor.

Speaker 2 That would mean adding $40,000 to my current undergrad debt of $40,000. So the original was $110,000.
What is your recommendation for funding a master's in mental health counseling?

Speaker 2 Oh, man. Are mental health professionals sitting to my right? Yeah.

Speaker 5 I guess they'll teach you in counseling one of the core tenets is you can't give what you don't have.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 if your

Speaker 5 heart is to help people heal so that they may be free,

Speaker 5 and in order to do that, you chain yourself to a student loan company for another five or 10 or 15 years,

Speaker 5 you're going to end up robbing Peter to pay Paul. And so I'm going to tell you, you can help people heal

Speaker 5 in your job as a school teacher. You can help people heal in your job as a, I'll tell you this.
I got to my hotel last night. I was in Pittsburgh.
I got to my hotel really, really late.

Speaker 5 And the woman checking us in

Speaker 5 was a saint. Just one of those people that you're around and your heart rate just goes down.
And she was so kind.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 5 she was a gift. She was a cup of cold water in the desert.

Speaker 2 It was after just a long, long day.

Speaker 5 And so you can help people heal on the job site when y'all are poor and concrete.

Speaker 5 So this idea that you have to be a licensed mental health professional and you have to go into $40,000 of student loan debt on top of the 40 you already have out there, that's just unwise.

Speaker 5 And I had

Speaker 5 a graduate advisor that says, if you are sitting in a clinical chair and you don't know how you're going to pay your bills, you cannot sit across from somebody and say, I can help you because you're not whole.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 5 So, what does that mean? That means get this 40 grand paid off as soon as possible.

Speaker 5 See if you can find some side work working in or around counseling offices or social work offices or in children's homes or in boys' ranches or things like that where you can work with people, make sure this is what you want to do.

Speaker 5 And then get a job at a local university as a housing director or something, and they will pay for your graduate degree.

Speaker 5 But don't add, don't double your debt load in order to to do this one particular job when you can help people heal in a number of different capacities.

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Speaker 5 Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, joined by Rachel Cruz.
Let's let's go out to albany new york and talk to jessica hey jessica what's going on

Speaker 3 hi how's it going so i'm calling because i have a whole life insurance policy that i've been holding on to since 2012

Speaker 3 and now i'm thinking hearing dave and you guys and hearing that the whole is garbage and that i should switch the term

Speaker 3 But I'm not sure about the tax invocations and stuff like that. I just don't really know what to to do with a life insurance policy from here on out

Speaker 2 okay have you looked into what the payout will be when you if you dissolve it

Speaker 3 um so it says the cash value is eight grand okay

Speaker 5 and of your money back to you

Speaker 2 that drives me crazy yeah

Speaker 2 um and have you looked into term at all to make sure that you you i mean you're are you healthy jessica like like you could probably get another insurance okay

Speaker 3 I'm gonna be 39 I'm 39 now I'm gonna be 40 next year so I'm kind of like do I hold on to it I have two little ones um

Speaker 3 my husband's the primary beneficiary but my oldest daughter is the

Speaker 3 contingent and I'm like do I hold on to this I already called the company and asked them if I should you know if I could switch it from whole to term and of course they said no well you could cash it out and then get a term insurance policy with us.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, I don't know what the tax implications are or anything, or if it'd be worth it to do that, or if I should just hold on to, because it looks like it is, it's gotten

Speaker 3 like $1,500

Speaker 3 in the last year.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but it's your money.

Speaker 3 According to the statements, that's right.

Speaker 2 So the way it is. Yeah, they take your money.

Speaker 2 You overpay them.

Speaker 5 They invest that money. They take a piece of the investment return and then they call you and they're like, look what you have.

Speaker 2 And it's a crappy return anyways. So, yeah, so no, I would cancel it regardless of what the whatever the fees and tax implication is.
I don't know what taxes are when you cash it out.

Speaker 2 It may be income, it may be like a

Speaker 2 capital. It's $8,000, it's not very much money.
Yeah, so I would pay the taxes on it.

Speaker 3 I'm $15 a month, so I've been ignoring it for all this time.

Speaker 2 How much, how much are you?

Speaker 3 I'm listening to you guys. I'm like, all right, I need to do something about this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, how much are you paying a month for it?

Speaker 3 55.

Speaker 2 55.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm a state worker. I make around 50 a year.
So

Speaker 3 I wasn't really missing it, you know?

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 Gotcha, gotcha.

Speaker 2 Okay, yeah. So what I would do is you don't want to be robbed slowly by the way.
Yeah, and that's what

Speaker 2 totally. And that's what it ends up being when you're pairing an investment and insurance together.

Speaker 2 You're always going to get a crappy product, usually on both sides, but for sure on the investment side. So,

Speaker 2 yeah, I would cancel it for sure today. But before, well, before you cancel it, I should say, make sure you have term in place because I do want you to have life insurance.

Speaker 2 You guys have two little kids.

Speaker 2 So I would still have life insurance. And so you do work.
Is that what you said outside the home?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
So I would get a policy 10 to 12 times your annual income. And that's about, that's around the policy that you would need.
And I would go to Xander.

Speaker 2 You can go to xander.com or give them a call, Xander Insurance. And they're great because

Speaker 2 they're an insurance broker. So they're going to shop all different companies to get you the best deal versus like this one you call.
I don't know, State Farm and it's just State Farm or whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, like you'll be able to get all different kinds of quotes. And that, so that's what I would do.
And then I would go ahead and apply and get that coverage going first.

Speaker 2 And the day that goes into place, the term policy, then I would call Whole Life, cancel it, get your eight grand and move on.

Speaker 3 Gotcha. All right.
And then,

Speaker 3 okay, so you said 10 to 12 months.

Speaker 3 months are my 10 to 12 times

Speaker 2 policy 10 to 12 times

Speaker 2 your annual income. That's

Speaker 5 if you make 50 grand, yeah, I would get a policy at a a minimum of 500 grand which should not cost you very much money a year

Speaker 5 okay it won't be it won't be a huge cost and by the way um this isn't just us pitching a product when i was 40 maybe 40 or 41 i understand i did the exact thing you're doing i called xander and got my insurance moved over like to them with term and it's it's fantastic

Speaker 3 Gotcha. Okay.
Awesome. Yeah.
I just want to say also, God bless you guys and thank you for the work that you do.

Speaker 5 Oh, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 you are you're super kind and yeah that like rachel i hear that a lot on like what's the taxes gonna be it's eight grand is pay the taxes and move on with your life or whatever it is yeah because you have eight million dollars well let's start worrying about the tax implications totally yeah yeah when you start looking at you know $55 a month and it may feel like oh that's you know no big deal but over time what it adds up and then what you end up paying for term is a fraction of that anyways that's right um and always again the rule of thumb is your insurance and your investment should never be mixed right um because you're not going to get the rate of return that you could if you put it, you know, even in an index fund or Vanguard or the, or the market, right?

Speaker 2 Um, yeah, in any other place, you're going to get a better rate of return. And a lot of these too, I'm like, they just, um, it's that slow leak that they just continue just to like take and take.

Speaker 2 And if it goes up, it just goes up. And you know what I mean? There's, it doesn't feel, um,

Speaker 2 it, it doesn't feel clean whole life. There's, there's some entanglements there that there's mixed priorities there, right?

Speaker 5 Let's go out to Spokane, Washington, and talk to Elizabeth. Hey, Elizabeth, what's happening?

Speaker 3 Hi, guys. How are you?

Speaker 5 Awesome. We're running a scam called a YouTube show and a podcast.
What are you up to?

Speaker 3 I love it. I watch you guys all the time.
Very cool.

Speaker 2 What's up?

Speaker 3 Not much. I was just hoping to get your guys' advice.

Speaker 3 We are pretty good,

Speaker 3 but we're not as good as we could be.

Speaker 3 I feel like we're still struggling month to month,

Speaker 3 kind of like paycheck to paycheck. And

Speaker 3 how do we get ahead? How do we start like invest saving? Like we have three kids. I homeschooled.
We're a one-income household.

Speaker 3 And the economy is kind of killing us. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So here's here's the hard,

Speaker 5 the hard truth.

Speaker 5 You and me and your spouse and my wife and Rachel and Winston, all of us go home as a family and we make choices.

Speaker 5 And that's not how it was set up for us. We all grew up and they're like, dude, if you just go to college or just do this and you can do this and this and this and this and this.

Speaker 5 And sometimes like the dream of

Speaker 5 we want mom to stay at home, awesome. We want to not get into the schools and we want to homeschool kids.
Cool.

Speaker 5 But we can't eat. Or we're just floating month to month to month.

Speaker 5 And it's you guys as a family having to back out of that situation and say, okay, the price of milk is bananas right now the price of bananas is bananas right now right and so it is um my two youngest are not school age so if i went back to work we'd have to pay for daycare well yeah i don't think you say yeah i don't think you're saying go back to work

Speaker 2 everybody makes choices so so elizabeth i want to know you guys um financially where are you guys at do you guys have consumer debt

Speaker 3 uh no we have credit cards we don't use them they are zero balance um we own our cars all our vehicles.

Speaker 2 How much does your husband make a year?

Speaker 3 About $65. Okay.

Speaker 2 And are you guys on a written plan, like a very detailed budget every single month that you know exactly here's the amount we have to spend? Okay. I think

Speaker 2 the budget is probably need to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, it's fine.
I mean, I think that's going to help a lot.

Speaker 2 And if you stay on the line after this call, Christian will pick up and we'll give you every dollar premium for a year because I think the budget, it's one of those places, Elizabeth, that once you do it and you actually have boundaries around certain categories in your life and you force yourself to live within them, then suddenly you're like, oh, there's our margin.

Speaker 2 There's our margin. It's not getting eaten up by that extra, you know, fast food run that we're going to go do or out to eat or whatever.

Speaker 2 Like it is amazing when you do plan out and stick to that plan. It's going to take about three months for you guys to get it to work.

Speaker 2 So remember that 90 days, give yourself a lot of grace between now and Christmas. But I want that to be your homework to say, okay, we're going to sit down and do this.
And then

Speaker 2 out of that and finding some margin, and and you'll look back on your uh accounts and your checking account last month and be like oh my gosh we're paying for two subscriptions we never use we you know like when you actually start getting in the weeds of it it is amazing what comes to the surface um and even if it's 30 40 bucks here or there that you know that adds up i mean that that will get you some margin and so do you guys have um do you guys have an emergency fund

Speaker 5 oh i just hold on one second there you go oh That's fine.

Speaker 2 Okay. So Elizabeth, I would

Speaker 5 mess up the phones here. There you go.
There you go. There you go.

Speaker 2 Do you guys have an emergency fund, Elizabeth? Do you have any savings?

Speaker 10 We do not have a specific emergency fund. We've got a

Speaker 10 decent amount in our checking account.

Speaker 2 Okay, so what I would do is open up a high-yield savings and I would move three to six months of expenses out of your checking account to that, and then that's not touched.

Speaker 2 So that's your emergency fund. If you have to have a few months to add to that savings to get that three to six months, do it.

Speaker 2 And then from there, I would start investing 15% of your income into retirement and start that going. That can be through his 401k or Roth IRA.
You guys can open up.

Speaker 1 Real change in your money and relationships is possible. You can break the cycles that have kept you from moving forward.
You can build a better future for yourself, and it starts here.

Speaker 1 Hang out with Dr. John Deloney and I live in a city near you for the Money and Relationships Tour.
Starting next week, we'll be in Louisville, Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City.

Speaker 1 Time is running out, so grab your tickets while you can at ramseysolutions.com/slash tour.

Speaker 5 Welcome back, triple eight eight two five five two two five. This is the Ramsey Show.
Let's go out to Kimberly in Seattle, Washington. Hey, Kimberly, what's up?

Speaker 5 Hey, are you still there? We're here. How's it going? How can we help?

Speaker 9 Good.

Speaker 9 Well, not good, but maybe you can help me out with some suggestions. My husband, just like about a week ago, was

Speaker 9 went to the hospital and was diagnosed with

Speaker 9 basically liver. His liver is shot.

Speaker 9 It's beyond repair.

Speaker 9 They gave him maybe a year, year and a half to live.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and he struggled with alcohol, you know, addiction. off and on over the years.
And

Speaker 9 he said, I knew that this was probably going happen, but you know, when you're addicted, you're addicted, and it's hard to stop something.

Speaker 9 So, anyway, our situation right now is

Speaker 9 he's working or trying to work because he doesn't feel well.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 I've been doing the best I can to do Ramsey stuff without him not being

Speaker 9 on board, which means not very much.

Speaker 9 Anyway, I have questions here

Speaker 9 as to what we should do because this freight train is moving

Speaker 2 moving forward. Do you guys have kids currently?

Speaker 9 We have adult kids who are doing really well. Okay.

Speaker 9 Off on their own.

Speaker 9 They're amazing.

Speaker 2 How old are you guys?

Speaker 9 I just turned I'm I'm just turned 60. He's a few years younger than me, three years younger than me.

Speaker 9 anyway and in fact I just worked a I had a hospital bill I worked a took a grinding job to pay that the balance off because of insufficient you know insurance and just got it done so here we are with another hurdle

Speaker 9 so I'm looking at we do own our own house but

Speaker 9 Because I haven't then had access, you know, I haven't had access to the funding I wanted to do to keep up on it. It needs exterior repairs that are fairly expensive,

Speaker 9 as in

Speaker 9 roof, gutters,

Speaker 9 some siding, and then paint after that.

Speaker 9 It's an amazing house. It's in really good condition, but that would have to be done if we were to possibly sell and downsize.

Speaker 9 If that would be one of the options we should consider. I don't know.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 9 We have a lot of stuff sitting around

Speaker 9 that my other half cannot get rid of anything ever.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 getting those, you know, options for getting those things sold and how to approach him on that,

Speaker 9 we'd have to have somebody come and remove it.

Speaker 5 Kimberly, let me let me hop in here.

Speaker 9 Yes, please.

Speaker 5 You've gone directly and you've and quite honestly if you've been if you've been married to somebody who's struggling with alcohol for a long time you have been responding to crisis after crisis and thing after thing forever, right?

Speaker 6 Amen.

Speaker 2 And then, so

Speaker 5 the way you said this, I want to challenge you on it.

Speaker 2 Well, now we got another hurdle.

Speaker 5 This is not just another hurdle.

Speaker 9 No, it's big.

Speaker 2 This is the stop sign.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 5 And so you have been working with somebody.

Speaker 2 for a long time.

Speaker 5 Everything in this conversation has changed now.

Speaker 5 and the conversation changed to changes to now we have a an hourglass we have a clock that's ticking and the doctors clicked it on for us and so we're not talking about how you feel if you really like this collection of bottle caps you've been keeping for four like that that ship is over that ship has sailed out to harbor we are now creating a life that I'm going to have to inhabit because you're going to be gone.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 and that looks like making sure I got a home with four walls on it and I can pay bills,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 5 And some of it you're going to.

Speaker 5 I remember sitting with

Speaker 5 somebody that I care about deeply, and I was helping them, and their house was full of stuff. I was trying to help them throw it away.

Speaker 5 This is several years ago, and I just finally stopped and looked at them and said, I need you to hear me say this:

Speaker 5 when you die, I'm going to throw all of this away. I can do it now, or I can do it when you're gone.

Speaker 2 And there was a long, long pause, and they said, You're going to have to do it when I'm gone.

Speaker 5 And I said, Okay, I'm moving on with my day. I'm not going to spend another second here.
I've already made that choice, but I'm not going to fight that in this moment. See what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 So I want you to.

Speaker 9 He was not even used to that idea yet. It hadn't even been introduced, right?

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 So here's what we're doing. We're reverse-engineering this thing for the four walls.

Speaker 5 I hate to live like this, but this is the clock you've been given. I want to go 18 months and start working backwards.

Speaker 5 What does life look like?

Speaker 5 And you don't have to do a roof and siding and gutter. You don't have to do all that at the same time.
We're going to price each one of those things out.

Speaker 5 These things that we have to do so we can keep our house. These things that we have to do so we have transportation.

Speaker 5 You're going to have to have a job if you don't have any retirement.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what's the financial

Speaker 2 status, Kimberly? Do you guys, and you said you own your home outright, so there's no mortgage or anything on it, correct?

Speaker 9 Yeah, well,

Speaker 9 I was, you know, in the earlier days, I was working to, you know, pay a little extra here and there because I'm the, you know, I'm the one that doesn't want to be in horrendous

Speaker 9 debt of any kind, actually.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 he used to work a very,

Speaker 9 a very good job. And part of it was an investment account

Speaker 9 that was like a retirement, right?

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 he got to a point where he wanted to start his own business.

Speaker 9 He'd always wanted to do this because his family had done it and they had done it poorly and they fought and they divorced, but it still is a dream of his.

Speaker 2 So did he cash out the investments?

Speaker 9 So over time, yes, he cashed out almost everything

Speaker 9 that he threw into a business without knowing how to run a business.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 5 I can't really have to set that aside because you got emergency in in front of you.

Speaker 2 So what

Speaker 2 debt? What debt? I know. No, no, you're fine.
You're fine. What debt do you guys have?

Speaker 2 Any at all? Any consumer debt? Credit cards, car loan?

Speaker 9 No. Okay.
We have no debt.

Speaker 2 No debt.

Speaker 2 And how much money?

Speaker 2 Property taxes and things like that. Okay.
Are you working, Kimberly? Do you work?

Speaker 9 I was in order to pay off my hospital debt.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Horrendously huge. And I finally got that paid off, but it was very hard.

Speaker 2 It was just a

Speaker 2 huge

Speaker 2 physically. Okay, okay.
So not in a great position to work. Okay.
What was he making a year? No.

Speaker 9 What's he making now?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 To keep you guys.

Speaker 9 Crap. I should know this.

Speaker 2 No, it's fine.

Speaker 2 $30,000, $70,000. Do you have any rounds? Yeah, $30, something.
$30 something. $30 something.
Okay. And that's enough.

Speaker 2 And that's enough. Okay.
So, and any investments. Sorry, I know you said he cashed out his to start the business.
Do you have, do you have any retirement? No, I'm all out.

Speaker 2 Okay, so there's no investments, no retirement.

Speaker 2 And does he have life insurance?

Speaker 9 Nope.

Speaker 2 Nope. Okay.
Okay. So what I want you to do, Kimberly, is the silver lining from a financial standpoint, all of this is you guys have no debt.
I mean, you don't even have a mortgage.

Speaker 2 So that in and of itself is like, that's a relief. So what John was saying, the four walls, I want you to go and do a budget, Kimberly, and I want you to stay on the line.

Speaker 2 And we're going to give you Financial Peace University and Every Dollar Premium because I want you to start budgeting and I want you to know to the penny.

Speaker 6 No, I do have every dollar already.

Speaker 2 Oh, you do? Okay. So to know what you're doing.

Speaker 9 Thank God for that. That has been like saving my emotional.

Speaker 2 I'm so glad because I think if you have those numbers in front of you of the things you have to do, you have to keep the lights on, the cell phone bill, your insurance,

Speaker 2 you know, food. gas in the car, you have all of that.
And that's what you're going to have to look at, Kimberly, and say, okay, I have to at least make this, right?

Speaker 2 When the time comes, I have to, I have to at least make this. And then I would not encourage you to sell the house or even to put in a ton of repairs right now.
I think you're fine.

Speaker 2 What I would do isn't unless your roof is linking or something, but like for now, and then Kimberly, when the time comes, I want you to grieve.

Speaker 2 I want you to go through that process and don't make a big financial decision until about six months to a year.

Speaker 2 And if in two years, three years, you decide to sell the home and downgrade, take some of the equity, you can do that. But don't feel like you have to make these big decisions today.

Speaker 2 Today, I just want your four walls covered between now and 18 months. I'm so sorry, though.
I'm so sorry.