Hope Is the Difference Between Victim and Victor

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Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Camill, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, host of the George Camill YouTube hit.

Speaker 1 He's my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-825-5225.
The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Adam starts off this segment in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Speaker 1 Hey, Adam, what's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave. We've been listening to you guys since about last May.

Speaker 1 Awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 2 We've gotten started on the budget and everything. We started using every dollar app right away.

Speaker 2 It seems like, though, that once we get

Speaker 2 it, we've gotten things kind of ironed out in the budget, but now it always feels like there's a fight every time we go to discuss the budget,

Speaker 2 mostly because she feels like I just make the budget and

Speaker 2 then go over it with her but she always feels like I just make it and don't give her any input

Speaker 1 okay so you're the you're like me you're the nerd in the house and she's the free spirit

Speaker 1 yeah I guess so because for like the last six years we didn't even do a budget I would just work and she would take care of the bill and so now I've kind of taken that role sure but if we were to ask you who the detail organized person is in your house that actually kind of has a love affair with spreadsheets, it would not be her.

Speaker 1 No, it would not be. It would be you.
Okay, that's my point. Okay, so,

Speaker 1 you know, we used to do this long riff in Financial Peace University about nerds and free spirits.

Speaker 1 And one of the things we would teach the nerds is once you lay the budget out, slide it across the table to her. And rule number one is shut up.

Speaker 1 You're not allowed to talk. You're only allowed to force her to talk.
Rule number two is the free spirit must change some things in your perfect little budget.

Speaker 1 Otherwise, it's not our budget, it's your budget. And that's what she's griping about.
Am I hearing you right?

Speaker 2 Yes, to some degree.

Speaker 3 What am I missing?

Speaker 2 I guess my thing is because once we do it and we discuss it, I'll ask her, you know, is there anything that she needs that she sees we need to change? And she'll be like, well, it's what it is.

Speaker 1 And she'll just kind of go along with whatever we did well that's just immature pouting

Speaker 2 you know because then later she

Speaker 1 never gets that's immature pouting she's having a little girl fit why is she doing that

Speaker 1 i don't okay i can't say anything even though you told me to say something i can't say anything did you smack her down every time she made a suggestion

Speaker 2 I didn't smack her down,

Speaker 2 but basically my point is, I'll say, well, we have to take money from something else to be able to apply that that other account.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 1 Where do you want to do that? Because this has to balance when we're done. So which account, honey, if you want to raise the grocery budget by $75, which account do you want to take $75 out of?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's what I tell her.

Speaker 1 How old is she?

Speaker 4 She's

Speaker 4 48.

Speaker 1 Why is she acting like she's 14?

Speaker 1 This is, I mean, because you're at, unless you're really being abrasive or something in this, and I don't hear that in your voice, this pouting doesn't make sense.

Speaker 6 Does she just feel like it's restrictive and it's just not a fun thing to do?

Speaker 2 To some degree, yeah.

Speaker 6 If we got her on the phone right now and we said, okay, share your side, what would she tell us that you're not telling us?

Speaker 2 Probably

Speaker 2 she feels like I'm, to some degree, because I've asked her if she can, because she's on stage four cancer.

Speaker 1 Well, there's a ticket.

Speaker 6 Let's not bury the lead there.

Speaker 1 She's going through something.

Speaker 2 But she is stable. And so she could go out and she's on disability.
So she could, you know, so basically we've asked if she could go out and work a couple of days a week doing Uber Eats.

Speaker 2 And she's agreed that, yeah, she could do that. But then it's like every week there's no,

Speaker 2 there's no, she goes out and she'll work all day with her sister or her daughter. And then next thing you know, she can't do anything for two days because she's all completely exhausted.

Speaker 1 That would be too.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I would just need a little bit of help, you know,

Speaker 2 to increase our budget just a little bit. Because right now we're set to be probably 12 to 18 months to be consumer debt-free.

Speaker 1 Dave is a gas.

Speaker 1 I absolutely apologize to your wife for calling her a whiner in stage four cancer. And I've discovered that now you are the whiner.

Speaker 1 And she won't work for me, and she won't do what I want her to do. And she goes with her sister.
Oh, my God, son. Did you hear yourself? Seriously.

Speaker 2 And I don't have an issue with her going and doing stuff.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you do.

Speaker 1 She would have been working for me in the budget. Instead, she went and helped her sister, and now she's too exhausted with her stage four cancer.
Bless her heart. Oh, my God, man.

Speaker 1 No wonder she doesn't want to talk to you.

Speaker 1 I'm serious. So now, really, you guys need to sit down with someone and start working on your relational skills.

Speaker 1 the two of you, as you navigate through getting out of debt and more importantly, continuing to beat stage four cancer. Man, bless her heart.

Speaker 1 She's really, I can't think of anything more devastating to try to work your way through than that. And

Speaker 1 that's thing one: beat cancer. Get out of debt is way down the list after beat cancer.

Speaker 6 If it's delayed by six months because she can't go Uber Eats a few hours a week, that's okay. Yeah.
We'll move at a slower pace.

Speaker 1 It is fair for you to do a better job of drawing her in and getting agreement on the budget.

Speaker 1 It is no wonder she doesn't want to do that when you throw Uber Eats at a stage four cancer woman as the way to fix the budget. No wonder she doesn't want to vote in this thing

Speaker 1 because the situation is unreasonable. So you just say, all right, honey, I want to make sure more than anything we take care of you.

Speaker 1 And given that, this is how much money we have because you're not able to do a lot of stuff right now. And I understand that.
So this is how much money we have. How do you want to spend the money?

Speaker 1 That's us agreeing on the budget, not you cracking the whip on her and making sure she goes out and earns some money

Speaker 1 in the middle of this medical situation. So, oh, man.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Wow.
If you want to create a margin.

Speaker 1 Boy, I miss them occasionally, George. I missed that one.
That one

Speaker 1 drove past me. I never saw it coming.
You never assumed that.

Speaker 1 Admittedly, the lead was buried. Yes.
We had no idea, but oh, my gosh. Wow.
Okay. So here's the deal.
Let's kind of recoup for just a second away from Adam's situation. In general,

Speaker 1 my wife is the free spirit, and it is not her nature to do conflict. She does not want to enter into discussion about where the money goes or whatever.

Speaker 1 It's easy for her to say, whatever you want to do, honey,

Speaker 1 which is a cop-out.

Speaker 1 And so we've learned over the 30 years of doing this that we say, no, that's not an okay answer. You have to give input.
You have to take ownership.

Speaker 1 And you have to change some things in the budget so that you are in agreement with this wholeheartedly, not with your lips stuck out.

Speaker 1 And I've got to, as the nerd, I've got to back off and give her lots of emotional and conversational room to be comfortable and safe in making those changes.

Speaker 1 But if every time she suggests a change, I sigh loudly and roll my eyes, that probably's not going to invite change. Yeah, you're not an honest input.

Speaker 6 You're never going to get to unity through apathy. So you've got to have people who care about this.

Speaker 1 That's a lot. Throw out a line.
Tweet that line.

Speaker 6 I'll tweet that.

Speaker 6 Does Twitter still exist? Are we still doing that?

Speaker 1 X or whatever the flip they call it, but pre-Elon. I don't know.
Yeah, so anyway, yeah, never going to get to unity through apathy.

Speaker 6 You got to have two people who care.

Speaker 1 It's directed at the free spirit right there in general. Plus or minus stage four four cancer.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 If you're a business owner or you know someone is that is, you know one thing.

Speaker 1 Running a business is freaking hard.

Speaker 1 You open your own business, you will find out soon enough that your boss is a jerk.

Speaker 1 He will work you to death. He will grind you up like powder.
Working for yourself will do that, man, because you're living the dream.

Speaker 1 Yeah, baby, it's hard. And the challenges pile up.
The fear can creep in. The loneliness can be real.

Speaker 1 I know I've run a business most of my life, and we coached over 10,000 businesses through our entree leadership program.

Speaker 1 It's why we wrote the new book, Build a Business You Love, to unpack how we took Ramsey Solutions from a card table

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Speaker 1 Brandon's in Indianapolis. Hey, Brandon, what's up?

Speaker 2 Thank you for taking my call, gentlemen.

Speaker 4 I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Sure. How can I help?

Speaker 8 I was, so I worked my way up in the company here in Indianapolis from the bottom, and I got to a good

Speaker 7 high-paying position.

Speaker 8 I did your steps. I won't do to baby step seven.
We were in a great position. I was getting ready to invest in possibly some rentals on the side, and then I was laid off.

Speaker 8 And I need to know if I'm in a position to possibly do this and make this my dream.

Speaker 4 I wanted to work for myself for a while and kind of get out of the corporate world, or if I'm dreaming and I just stay in the corporate world.

Speaker 7 I've turned down two jobs so far, and I just really not sure what to do.

Speaker 1 What were you making?

Speaker 7 $350,000.

Speaker 1 Okay. Can you make that again?

Speaker 8 No, I won't make that much immediately, no, but the potential is there in a few years.

Speaker 1 But you can land on a quarter million, easy, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the thing you want to measure against is, okay, if I do real estate and I make $100,000, I've lost $150,000.

Speaker 1 Okay. So if we're going to do real estate, we've got to make a quarter million, or we've got to see a way to do that fairly fairly quickly.

Speaker 1 I don't mind taking a step back as long as I can get back to where we are. But if you think, okay, I'm going to do flips and I can make $100,000 a year and that's all I'll ever make.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't do that. No, I'd do flips and go get a job because there's a quarter million dollars on the table.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're,

Speaker 1 what are you worth is what it amounts to. And so how can we get the most value out of you without you losing your soul, of course, in the process? We're not doing that.

Speaker 1 But point being, if you can do something you like with a good, strong company, make a quarter million. But if you could do real estate and make 300, let's talk about doing that instead.
Can you?

Speaker 8 I don't know.

Speaker 8 I don't think I can immediately know.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, it wouldn't be immediately. What are you talking about doing? Investing and flipping, or what are you talking about?

Speaker 8 Right now, I've got about 600,000 cash.

Speaker 1 Okay. And

Speaker 4 my goal would be to obviously buy a couple of rentals and kind of get the ball rolling there.

Speaker 8 And I don't need a lot.

Speaker 11 I mean, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 8 I don't want to take a huge step back, but I wouldn't have to go.

Speaker 1 But I mean, if you bought two rentals, they're not going to throw off on 600 grand. I mean, you'll throw off six or eight grand a month.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 6 What were these offers you passed up?

Speaker 5 Another high-paying position here in Indianapolis for a data and IT services, and then another company

Speaker 11 doing a very similar job to what I was before.

Speaker 1 Did you have an idea that you might want to do flips? Because you can make more on that than you can. The rentals are slow burn.

Speaker 1 They're a great investment, but they're slow burn.

Speaker 8 I would love to do flips. I just don't know anybody.

Speaker 5 I don't have anyone I trust in the area to do them with me. I don't know a good contractor.

Speaker 12 I don't know how to judge repairs.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 I could take the 600 and see making 300 with it.

Speaker 7 With doing flips.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you'd have to know what you're doing.

Speaker 1 You could also lose 300.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I've heard so many horror stories.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of them.

Speaker 8 The other thing is, obviously, leave it in the market, but, you know, I've done that.

Speaker 1 I just, I really kind of wanted to try to get it. Yeah, but you can do all of that and still work, which means we've got $250,000 a year laying on the table.

Speaker 1 So my point is, if we're going to change careers, let's duplicate your income,

Speaker 1 not retire.

Speaker 1 How old are you?

Speaker 1 41. Yeah, you're not ready to retire.
You're not ready to do nothing at all. No, nothing at all.

Speaker 1 And managing two rentals is far from a full-time job. You know, you buy two, $300,000 rentals, rentals, you put two tenants in there, and then what are you going to do? Go play golf every day?

Speaker 1 I mean, not a bad idea, I guess, but you can afford to do it. But I'm just thinking, what would I do if I was you?

Speaker 1 I would want to maximize my earning potential while heading towards the self-employment.

Speaker 1 So maybe you take the new job with the idea, we're going to take three years of working on flips on the side and learn the flip business.

Speaker 1 to where I can make really good money in the real estate business.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to move that way with some of this cash gradually with you know getting some people getting contractors lined up getting some people lined up that are in my corner that can mentor me on this find some people that are actually successful that aren't doing it on tick tock for god's sakes but they're actually doing it okay they're not just selling a weekend course to somebody for three grand that's not what i'm talking about but you get in there and find somebody actually doing this stuff and learn how to do it you can make a transition in the real estate business there's real estate agents that sell real estate that make more than 300k

Speaker 1 yeah and you could go that would your ideals what would your ideal starter property be?

Speaker 5 I mean, if you, if you, what would you say is the appropriate amount to kind of do my first one?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're going to buy at 70% of value minus repairs, and you can expect to net 13% on that formula.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because when you, when you list a property at 100% of value, it never brings that. It always brings 96% of value or thereabouts or less.

Speaker 1 And then you're going to give up closing costs. You're going to give up some points to commissions.
And you're going to net walking away about 88%

Speaker 1 if you're lucky. Okay.
And so that means you're making 13% to 18% on your money. But if you do that three or four times a year, that starts to sound like 40 or 50% on your money, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so

Speaker 1 that's per deal. That's not per annum, per annual.

Speaker 1 But that's the kind of, you know, and what are you looking for? A needle in a haystack.

Speaker 1 But that's the formula that flips really work on. That's what I've done 2,000 of them.
So that actually does work.

Speaker 6 And then if he was just looking at an investment property to rent, what would the formula be for that?

Speaker 1 Well, you're not going to get to 300K off of 600K.

Speaker 6 He's looking at more like a few grand a month.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to figure out a way he gets in the real estate business and makes two

Speaker 1 long term. Makes two or three hundred thousand bucks a year doing something in the real estate business.
So it's probably going to move into that gradually while taking the $250,000 job.

Speaker 6 I like the idea of taking the quarter million job and using that to fund his real estate ventures. That's the move until it spins off enough.

Speaker 1 And go ahead and start doing them as your side job.

Speaker 1 Start going, okay, I'm going to do flips as a side. I mean, you can do three or four flips as a side job without a trouble in a year, and you make some money and learn the business.

Speaker 1 And then you're not just throwing 600K against the wall and hope it sticks, which is what these people on the social media crap do. But I'm talking about people that actually really do this.

Speaker 1 Now, I will tell you, folks, I'll remind you, okay?

Speaker 1 We looked at on average, I kept our averages real close. It was close to 200 properties we looked at to buy one.
Wow.

Speaker 6 Most people aren't willing to put in that level of work.

Speaker 1 Well, man, that's why they lose money because your money on a flip is made when you buy it. You've got instant equity.
You just got to play it through.

Speaker 1 You've got to get the paint job done and the roof changed and the kitchen gutted, and then put the thing back on the market as quickly as possible so the money turns as fast as possible.

Speaker 1 And then you've got to hold to your price and you pay cash for it. So you're not got some banker looking in your ear hole telling you what to do because bankers are idiots.

Speaker 1 So that's the last person you want running your business,

Speaker 1 believe me. And so, you know, all of that, you're paying cash for it.
So you buy a $200,000 property. You're buying it at $140,000.
It needs 20 repairs, which means I'm buying it at 120.

Speaker 1 Put the 20 in it, and I got 140 in it. I'm going to make 10 to 18% on that on average when I roll that money over.

Speaker 1 But you're looking forever to find that deal. This is moving slow.
So it's a full-time. I mean, this is going to be a lot of work.
It's going to be a lot of work.

Speaker 1 But I think you need to do something on the side and begin to get your foot in the water. In the meantime, go back to making some good money.
You're only 40 years old. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Keegan and Yvonne are with us.

Speaker 2 Hey, guys, how are you?

Speaker 1 Doing good. Great.
Where do y'all live? Lexington, Kentucky. Awesome.
Beautiful area. Yep.
So, how much debt have you two paid off?

Speaker 1 $148,651.

Speaker 1 I love it. How long did that take? 36 months.
Good. And your range of income during that three years?

Speaker 1 So three years ago, we started about $136,000 and just this past year ended about $270,000. Yo! Wow.
I love doubling it in three years. Nice job.
What do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 1 I'm the general manager of a hotel. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 And I work in sales and pools. Okay.
very good. So business is good, huh? Yeah.
In both cases, because

Speaker 1 your incomes have gone way up. Yep.
Yeah. Excellent.
What kind of debt was the $149,000? It was actually our house.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 look at a weirdos. Oh, yeah.
You have a paid-for house. That's so weird.
I love it. How old are you two? 44.

Speaker 6 Both.

Speaker 1 Wow. What's his house worth?

Speaker 6 I say 800. He says 650.

Speaker 1 Yeah, probably 650 in reality yeah probably 750 i think she's right yeah all right she wouldn't sell it for 650 i can tell you that no

Speaker 1 way to go how much money in your all's nest eggs your retirement accounts and so forth um about 240 000. okay so we're gonna call you 44-year-old baby steps millionaires then huh yeah getting close

Speaker 1 i love it way to go guys i'm proud of you so a lot of what helped the world that's so cool man yeah a lot of what helped too i did a side hustle uh-huh what was that?

Speaker 1 Just taking care of pools and hot tubs. Okay.
Cleaning, maintenance, that sort of stuff. So

Speaker 1 that's what I worked doing. So just after hours, before work, after work, just was doing that.
I could turn into some real money. Yeah.

Speaker 6 So you're in pool sales. And then you were like, hey, by the way, I can maintain this for you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know a lot about chemistry of water. So just taking care of pools, cleaning, maintenance, that sort of stuff.

Speaker 6 And no one wants to deal with it.

Speaker 1 No, we don't offer that at my work. So I would just do it before and after work.
So So, no competition to the boss. That's good.
No, yeah, good. Very good, man.

Speaker 1 Make a big difference. So, doing this.

Speaker 1 Probably what you have discovered in the pool space is that if you actually show up,

Speaker 1 if you just do that, you don't have any competition. There's no competition.
Yep. Because they just don't even show up.
Much less, you know, and you charge almost anything you want

Speaker 1 because you actually showed up.

Speaker 1 It's crazy. There's not many people that do it

Speaker 1 what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing and they don't show up.
Can you tell this has happened? So anyway, very cool, man.

Speaker 1 I'm so proud of y'all. Congrats.
So what happened three years ago that got you on this whole thing and this Ramsey thing? Because y'all have been married a while, right?

Speaker 1 How long have you been married?

Speaker 1 20 years. 20 years.
Okay. Married 20 years.

Speaker 1 So we never had any depth, anything like that for cars. It was always just a house.

Speaker 1 My mom, she's actually over here. She helped kind of lead the way.
So as for being kind of the first gen, you know, Dave Ramsey, you know, changing the tree and

Speaker 1 the family tree. So she really did that.
And

Speaker 1 so she was following us. Yeah, she's following us.
And you guys look up after 17 years of marriage and went, okay, we're going to pay off this house. Yeah.
Yeah. A lot of it was that.

Speaker 1 But then just, you know, we did make the mistake of when we moved in our home 10 years ago doing a 30-year fixed.

Speaker 1 So when COVID hit, we refinanced

Speaker 1 to 15, and that just really made a difference.

Speaker 1 We did it with a local credit union, and by doing that,

Speaker 1 really showed like all my accounts. I could see the difference in traction of like, hey, we can get this paid off.

Speaker 6 Well, so much more is going to principal on that 15 instead of interest.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it just made a big difference there. And then, also, where it was a local credit union, just whenever I got all my accounts, I would see a negative.

Speaker 1 So, it just made me feel like we need to get in the positive, you know. But our son's here, he's 17.
Our oldest is in college. So,

Speaker 1 just wanted to get it done before they started college. Yeah.
Well, now you got all your cash freed up and you can pay for college. Yeah, excellent.
Well done. 2529.

Speaker 1 We have that all set up and taken care of. Yep.
Very good. Very good.
What was the hardest part of this whole thing?

Speaker 1 Just all the work, all the hours. This past year was a lot of work.

Speaker 1 No shopping.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no shopping. No shopping.
That's right. We're getting the house paid off.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't call it no shopping. We still, we were pretty, we were pretty.

Speaker 6 How's that?

Speaker 1 Not enough for her. So, yep, but she checked out your all's a little shopping over here and got some shirts and souvenirs.

Speaker 6 Got some swag from the Ramsey Cafe store. That's awesome.
Yep.

Speaker 1 We stayed in Franklin last night, so it was nice, you know, looking around and made a fun trip out of it. Yeah, celebrate.

Speaker 1 Well, we're glad you're here. We're proud of you guys.
Yeah, thank you. I'm sure your mom's proud of you.
She made the trip with you to cheer you on, right? Yep.

Speaker 1 How does it feel to be 44 years old, have no payments in the world,

Speaker 1 and already be millionaires? Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Just it's kind of surreal.

Speaker 1 I never saw it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Never thought. Yeah, just

Speaker 1 different doing the budget and stuff now, just not having the mortgage and throwing extra on it. You know, for years, we just felt like we didn't have money, even though we did.

Speaker 1 We just wanted to, you know, actually,

Speaker 1 you know, get the house paid for, get everything paid for, and just now all the money we have, it's ours. We, you know, we can do what we want.
I love it.

Speaker 1 I love it. I'm proud of y'all.
Very, very, very well done. Very good.
What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is?

Speaker 1 Just

Speaker 1 I think just making the budget and then just being on the same page with your

Speaker 1 spouse and both agreeing on things makes a big difference. But the budget's big.
So, yep. Yeah, really good.
Good job, Kevin.

Speaker 6 And working your tails off while you're at it.

Speaker 1 And a lot of work. I'm scared of work.
Yeah. Yeah.
A lot of work. So, you know, now that that's paid off, we can kind of scale back a little bit and take it easier.

Speaker 6 Have you cut the side hustle?

Speaker 1 I have not. It's actually getting larger.
So I don't know. So we don't know what the future might lie.
But we'll see what goes on. God's sakes, hire somebody to go do it.
Yeah. Yep.

Speaker 1 Well, my son's done a little bit of it, so he's helped out. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 1 Family business is brewing. Yep.
I like it.

Speaker 1 What big thing are you guys going to to do to celebrate other than making the trip here to do this?

Speaker 1 Take her shopping some more.

Speaker 1 Shopping's free.

Speaker 1 There's a theme here, I think. Yeah, we got a trip planned out west.
We do a lot of snow skiing, so we met actually in Deer Valley in Utah. So

Speaker 1 we're going to be going out there in spring break. Very cool.

Speaker 1 Shopping there, so I'm sure she'll

Speaker 1 find something.

Speaker 1 Sharon and I were just there with two of the grandsons. We just took them skiing out there the other day.
Oh, nice. Great.
It's beautiful. It is beautiful.
Well done, guys. Proud of you.

Speaker 1 Excellent job. All right.
Bring your son up. And you said he's 17? 17.
17, and his name is? Nico. Nico.
All right. Well done.
Good stuff. All right.
It's Keegan, Yvonne, and Nico.

Speaker 1 Lexington, Kentucky, $149,000 paid off in 36 months, making $136,000 to $270,000.

Speaker 1 House and everything.

Speaker 1 That asset added with their other assets makes them baby steps millionaires. They followed the baby steps and they did it at age 44.

Speaker 1 You're looking at real people that did it, boys and girls. This is how it's done.
It can be done in America, but you have to take the bull by the horns, and they did. They did it.

Speaker 1 They took the pool equipment out and used it all evening after work and used it to get out of debt. Well done.
Good stuff. Keegan, Yvonne, and Nico, count it down.
Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Speaker 1 All right, three, two, one.

Speaker 1 Break that three.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Boom, boop, boop, boom.

Speaker 6 I love it. We got a shriek out of Yvonne.
She was too excited to even yell. Just a shriek was perfect.

Speaker 1 That's the I'm going shopping shriek.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it sounded like she won a game show, I think, is what just happened.

Speaker 6 Oh, I love that. That's incredible.

Speaker 1 I love it. Very well done, you guys.
Fabulous. Hey, the point is it can be done.

Speaker 1 And the point is, it's not easy,

Speaker 1 but 100% of the time it's worth it. I've never had, ever have I talked to someone that I talked them into sacrificing to get out of debt.
I always ask, was it worth it?

Speaker 1 100% have said yes.

Speaker 1 No one said, oh, Dave, it was awful. I wish I had stayed in debt.

Speaker 1 I would have been better off. No one has ever said that to me in 35 years of doing this.

Speaker 1 100% of them feel better. Free.
Financial peace. Two words that don't go together, like airline service.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 The Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Why ReFi. Feeling stuck with defaulted private student loans.

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Speaker 1 The first step is to go to getting unstuck is to visit the website. Go to whyrefi.com slash Ramsey.
That's the letter YREFY.com slash Ramsey might not be in all states.

Speaker 6 Today's question comes from Justin in Minnesota. Many people think that for a person to become wealthy, other people must lose wealth because it's a limited pie that is sliced up unequally.

Speaker 6 I think wealth can be created through innovation, for example, and therefore not limited. What is your opinion of this?

Speaker 1 Well, Justin, you would be correct. This is a great philosophical The pie theory is someone that is ignorant of basic economics.

Speaker 1 The size of the economy shrinks, that's called recession, grows,

Speaker 1 grows too fast and too much, it's called inflation.

Speaker 1 The economy is constantly growing in size. The number of dollars moving around the economy today is way different than it was in 1776, darling.

Speaker 1 So this idea that we've simply been swapping the size of the slices of the pie around since 1776, we would all still be living in log cabins shooting muskets. That's dumb, okay?

Speaker 1 Obviously, the economy, the size of it, changes.

Speaker 1 So you don't, if someone that believes that by taking, by getting money that someone else is being taken from automatically is a fixed pie theory, and it just shows ignorance of economics.

Speaker 1 It's that simple. A good way to explain, I love Rabbi Lapin's picture.
It's one of my favorites of all times on this.

Speaker 1 He said, the economy, and he's an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, wrote a wonderful book called Thou Shall Prosper About Prosperity. He said, and he addresses this exact issue.

Speaker 1 He says, the economy is not a pie where if you get a bigger slice, someone else gets a smaller slice.

Speaker 1 The economy is more like a candle. When you light it, it doesn't take away from yours.
It just adds light. And so the economy, because money moves just exactly like that,

Speaker 1 you can show several examples on how money actually grows. So Justin, you're right.
Innovation isn't a good example of that. And so money is literally created

Speaker 1 and no one is the lesser for it. Now,

Speaker 1 if there were only two people on the planet,

Speaker 1 when I took... When George took some of my money, I would have less, he would have more.

Speaker 6 If we both placed a bet and I was right and Dave gives me his money, he lost, I win. That's where that would make sense.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 6 But the stock market is different. If an Apple share goes up in value because the company is worth more and they make great products, nobody lost in that scenario.

Speaker 1 It's because they sold more of those little iPhone thingies. Hello.

Speaker 1 And that's why Apple has more money than Egypt, literally. And so

Speaker 1 it's pretty crazy. Yeah, but that's it.
And so it's economies are created. And you can also, another place to look at that,

Speaker 1 Egypt made it come to mind, but not picking on Egypt, that's just a joke, but it also happens to be statistically true.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 if you go to a country that is underdeveloped, that has a weak economy,

Speaker 1 what is the difference in that and a, what we call a developed country where there has a strong and booming economy? It's not that one of them was issued a larger pie by God.

Speaker 1 It's that the booming economy grew

Speaker 1 by innovation, by industriousness, by service, by whatever it is they're doing, and it causes the dollars or the currency.

Speaker 6 And the GDP will expand.

Speaker 1 The GDP, the gross domestic product, which is the total of all goods and services sold in an economy.

Speaker 1 And that's why some of these comparisons by some of these wealthy quality people are people like they're arguing back during Obamacare, they're arguing about, well, Norway has free health care.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 Norway's economy is the size of Atlanta's.

Speaker 1 It's not even in the same ballpark. It's like tricycles go slower than motorcycles too, honey.
So, I mean, it's like, no kidding. It's a different thing.
They don't even belong in the same sentence.

Speaker 1 Again, just shows the sheer freaking ignorance of people on the basic economic stuff. Well, Norway has free health care.

Speaker 1 So does Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I mean, no, it doesn't.
But I mean, good God, that doesn't even show up, y'all. I mean, come on.
So it's the same kind of thing that goes on.

Speaker 1 But it always comes back to the underlying emotion is

Speaker 1 hope versus hopelessness, is scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality. The people that

Speaker 1 Justin that are coming at you with this, they have Eeyore as their spirit animal. It's like, oh, it's bad.
It's always going to be bad. It's always been bad.

Speaker 1 The little man can't get ahead because the big guy's taking all the pie. And there's perpetual freaking whining.
It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1 Instead of getting up, throwing your shoulders back, leave the cave, kill something, drag it home. Shut up.

Speaker 6 So it's basically, I'm broke because other people are rich.

Speaker 1 Well, because I refuse to actually look at the real problem, which is the guy in my mirror.

Speaker 1 It's like, I'm going to blame Dunkin' Donuts because I have a belly because I can't stay away from their donuts. It's not Dunkin' Donuts' fault.
It's Dave's fault. He eats too many freaking donuts.

Speaker 1 That's Dave's fault. You know, there's a reason I don't look like Mr.
Universe. And it's not Dunkin' Donuts' fault.

Speaker 6 Depends what universe. Or Kripp.

Speaker 1 Well, well, that's true. But Krispy Kreme either, by the way.
So we'll just be a multiple.

Speaker 6 It's their fault for making addictive products.

Speaker 1 It's their fault. They made an addictive product.
All that sugar just made me want to stand over there every time the hotlight comes on. Oh my God.
Am I a victim of this? No. Okay.

Speaker 1 So me too, boys and girls, me too. But you need to decide who you're going to blame in this because it's the difference between

Speaker 1 scarcity mentality and abundance mentality. It's the difference between fixed pie and candles.
It's the difference between

Speaker 1 hopelessness and hope. It's the difference between victor and victim.
And all of these things line up.

Speaker 1 And those things make you, are the things that are going to make you successful or not successful, not the fact that someone got yours so you can't get it out of the little fixed pie.

Speaker 1 I think I need a cheesecake now.

Speaker 6 I think I'm getting hungry thinking about all this.

Speaker 1 Oh, there's a lot of food in this, all these analogies.

Speaker 6 The extension of this is, should billionaires exist? I've seen this come about. Well, billionaires just should not exist, Dave.
Apparently, once you hit 999 million, that's it. You're fine.

Speaker 6 You're a good person. Once you hit billionaire, apparently you become a terrible, awful human being.

Speaker 1 Is it true? I thought it was millionaire, but I'm not sure. You change the game now.
It's like wealth is evil. No, it's not.
People are stupid.

Speaker 1 Wealth is not evil. Well, money is just like a brick.
You can build a hospital with it or you can throw it through a window. The brick doesn't care.

Speaker 1 But when you put it in the hands of a human being, you discover whether that human being is a moron or not. You discover whether they're a jerk or not.

Speaker 1 You discover whether they're a sweet, giving, generous person or not. When you hand people money,

Speaker 1 it doesn't cause them to become something. It reveals who they already are.
Well, money ruined my children. No, darling, your children were already idiots.
You handed them money and proved it.

Speaker 6 It just lets them that fire as gasoline out.

Speaker 1 That's not. I mean, it's not it.
That's just ridiculous. So this idea that, you know, somehow wealth is evil.
Well, I mean, the Bible says that money is the root of all evil.

Speaker 1 See, that's what happens if you get your theology off of TikTok. The Bible does not say that.

Speaker 1 It says the love

Speaker 1 of money is the root of all evil, which is an indication not of anything about money or amounts of money. It's an indication of the character of the individual that touched it.

Speaker 1 So if you're going to practice dadgum Christian doctrine, actually learn it before you open your mouth. God, this stuff is so aggravating to me.

Speaker 1 And so this idea that somehow someone has done something wrong in America because they went and helped a lot of people and made a lot of money in the process.

Speaker 1 No one was pissed off when I sold a $12 book called Financial Peace out of the back of my car and I sold 10 of them and I was starving to death.

Speaker 1 When I sold 10 million of them, somehow people got pissed off. Now you're greedy, daddy.
Now I'm greedy and I take advantage of poor people. Oh my God.
See, this is the problem.

Speaker 1 If you ever read comments, if you read the comments after articles, you know why some species kill their young. So, oh my gosh.
Open phones here.

Speaker 1 That wraps that little ransom. Sorry to wind you up.

Speaker 6 I just wound him up and I let him loose.

Speaker 1 You shouldn't have given me caffeine and

Speaker 1 a good subject.

Speaker 6 There we go. I'll get you a donut for the next hour.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'll feel so much better.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people

Speaker 1 build wealth. Do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships.
George Camill, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of the George Camill YouTube show.

Speaker 1 It's a big hit on the Ramsey Networks. Be sure you check that out.
He's my co-host today.

Speaker 1 Emmanuel is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Emmanuel.
How are you?

Speaker 13 Good afternoon. Hey, Ramsey, how are you doing?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. How can we help?

Speaker 13 Yes, sir. So my question is in regards to

Speaker 13 how I can approach my parents to get them on board with working the baby steps and getting out of debt

Speaker 1 Hmm Very difficult.

Speaker 6 Are you on board?

Speaker 13 I am

Speaker 4 my fiancé and I yeah, well, it's it's going

Speaker 13 You know, we're I'm actually working on step two right now You know starting to starting to see a little bit

Speaker 1 of your parents very hopeful

Speaker 13 I Want to say

Speaker 13 somewhere around a thousand dollars right now. It's very very much in the beginning.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. All right.
Well, to start with, convincing, how old are you?

Speaker 13 I'm 22.

Speaker 1 Yeah. When you're 22, convincing your mom and dad to do anything is very hard.
Period. Yeah.
Because you're facing what we call the powdered butt syndrome. Oh, PBS.

Speaker 1 Once someone has powdered your butt, they don't want your opinion, particularly on money or sex.

Speaker 1 So giving your parents advice on either one is very awkward, weird, and most of the time doesn't work.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Agreed?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you want to throw in one more, we can throw in religion. That'll piss them off too.

Speaker 1 You want to go completely sideways? Let's go on politics. Okay.
That'll get them really going.

Speaker 1 And, you know, and we could talk about vaccines if you really want to get them going too.

Speaker 1 But anyway, yeah, it's just something to argue about all the time, and you're not going to win an argument with your parents usually, even when you're grown.

Speaker 1 They have to get to be about 90 and senile before they actually listen to you.

Speaker 1 Okay, so that's very hard. It can be done, but it's very hard.
And if you are going to do it, you're early in the process.

Speaker 1 And the thing I've taught people, if you want to talk to someone about a difficult subject, don't talk to them about them.

Speaker 1 Talk to them about you. Tell your story.

Speaker 1 All I know is what happened to me, Dad. I had $25,000 in debt.
I started working this 18 months ago. The $25,000 in debt is gone.
I am so happy. I feel so empowered.

Speaker 1 And you just keep talking about how great your life is because you did this and what you did. Tell your story in detail, in nuance, until he finally says, well, I wish I could do that.

Speaker 1 Well, I think you can, Dad. Could I show you?

Speaker 1 And then he kind of opened the door then, right?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 1 But if you just talk to him about, dad, you need to get your crap together. I paid off a whole thousand dollars and I'm 22.

Speaker 1 He's not going to listen.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 So live your life in such a way that they want to ask you for financial advice. Because unsolicited financial advice, especially coming from their kid, it's not going to land.

Speaker 6 It's going to hit deaf ears. And so you've got to live your life in a way where they go, man, you're like a new person.
Like your whole demeanor's changed. You're happy.
You're crushing it.

Speaker 6 What's going on? And then you go, well, I'm following this plan. It's really been helpful.
And then you can tell them about your experience.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I had a buddy of mine when I was in my 20s that

Speaker 1 was a wild animal. He was out of control, drinking like crazy, doing drugs, rage, rage, rage, all this stuff.
And he started going to this church and he met God.

Speaker 1 And it changed all that. And he completely, it was

Speaker 1 like a different human being. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 dude, what happened? Well, once I asked, you know, he was happy to tell me about Jesus. Okay.
But a guy from that church earlier in my life had come over and tried to tell me about Jesus.

Speaker 1 And I didn't care anything about listening to him because he's telling me about everything that's wrong in my life. And I don't didn't really want to talk to him about that.
And it was an unsolicited

Speaker 1 opinions coming into my life. But this other guy observed his life change and I wanted what he had.
And it's one of the things that caused me to meet God was that guy's life change.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 the same thing's true with you, man. And so you go get your crap together, get yourself out of debt, start making some money, look like a different version of you, a better version of you.

Speaker 1 And they're going to start asking you how you did that.

Speaker 1 But the last people to come around are those that are the closest to you, particularly family. They're the last ones to come around.
There are people in my family that still don't do this stuff.

Speaker 1 And I'm like world-renowned. Like, I'm freaking Dave Ramsey, okay? And they don't, and the people in my family don't do it.
Okay. So

Speaker 1 there's no, no, you cannot make people do stuff. You just got to go, here's what it is, and you can do it or not do it.
And, and here's what will happen if you do it. It's awesome stuff.

Speaker 1 But man, you can't make people do anything. So it's a great question.
And a lot of people have asked that question over the years. And I'm really glad you asked it again today.

Speaker 6 It's like when you learn this, you're like, I got to tell everyone. Everyone is snowballed.
They got to get on this. But it comes across sometimes a little bit too eccentric or judgmental or whatever.

Speaker 6 Don't tell

Speaker 6 me.

Speaker 1 Don't tell people about Jesus until Jesus has changed your life, okay?

Speaker 1 They don't want to hear it. They won't hear it.
And don't tell people about the baby steps until you've actually done it and you go, this is what it is.

Speaker 1 And don't tell them all the things they're doing wrong. Talk about what happened to you.
You know, and my pastor used to say, a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion.

Speaker 1 And so all of a sudden, when you talk about, this is what happened to me, this is my experience, this is real. This changed my life.
It changed my destiny.

Speaker 1 It changed, you know, my spiritual walk changed my being a good husband. You know, my spiritual walk changed.
And so then people want to know about your spiritual walk.

Speaker 1 They want to know what caused that. But you can't do it otherwise.
So it's good stuff. I love it.

Speaker 1 nathaniel is in ashland kentucky hi nathaniel hi how are you better than i deserve what's up

Speaker 14 so i started a business and i'm wondering whether or not i need to invest by getting a loan or a lease through my company to build credit for the company neither

Speaker 1 okay why would a company need credit why do you need credit what are you doing you already started it it's already running isn't it yeah i'm 100 debt-free you know what are you making how much money are you making About 20 a month, 20 grand.

Speaker 1 Why do you want to give that away to a bank?

Speaker 4 Well, I don't want to, but I went to a few places like rental places and things like that.

Speaker 14 And like, hey, you got to have credit in order to, you know, have a line through them.

Speaker 1 What are you wanting to rent?

Speaker 7 So I rent equipment a lot.

Speaker 1 You can rent equipment with cash. You don't have to have a line of credit or company credit to rent.
You can go down to freaking rent all and rent stuff, like rent a backhoe or something for the day.

Speaker 14 I've been doing that and been paying for it, but my brother, he's a banker, and he keeps telling me I'm not.

Speaker 1 Oh, the banker told you you need to go in debt. Well, that's a shock.
Asking a banker if you need to be in debt is like asking a dog if it's hungry.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Of course the banker told you you needed to be in debt.

Speaker 1 No, man. Listen, you're making more money in a month than your brother makes in a year.

Speaker 1 Probably. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Don't be listening to him.

Speaker 1 He needs to get in the backhoe business and get out of the banking business. That's probably what he needs to do.
But anyway, leave him out of this. No, that's funny.
That's real fun. I like that.

Speaker 6 Yo, a line of credit to rent the back home. I've never heard, that's a new one for me, but the banker one makes total sense.
It wasn't an actual experience he had. It was a guy said

Speaker 1 a guy that happens to be his brother was giving an opinion about something that no one asked about. We were just talking about that.

Speaker 6 Very similar situation.

Speaker 6 Unsolicited.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Run your business debt free. Use the cash and pour back into it.
I started this on a card table in my living room. We'll do 300 million top line this year.

Speaker 1 Zero debt ever. I'm sitting in a building worth $650 million.
And I'm sure

Speaker 6 people would say, Dave, you need a line of credit, man.

Speaker 1 Zero debt ever. You know why I've got that money? Because I didn't borrow it and give it all to the bank.
We used it to buy other stuff that caused the business to grow. Cash organic growth.

Speaker 1 That's what you do, Nathaniel. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 George Campbell Ramsey Personalities, my co-host Jeremiah is in Indianapolis, Indiana. Hi, Jeremiah.
How are you?

Speaker 11 I'm doing good, Dave. How are you guys?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. How can we help?

Speaker 11 So I'm a 25-year-old veteran, recently divorced, and I'm going to college full-time.

Speaker 11 And I'm currently in about $27,000 in debt.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 11 I guess I'm...

Speaker 11 Calling for a recommendation on, I guess, the best way to gal this debt and build a better financial future for myself and my daughter.

Speaker 1 Good for you. Thank you for your service.

Speaker 7 Thank you for your support.

Speaker 1 Which branch did you serve in?

Speaker 11 I was in the Army.

Speaker 1 Okay. Thank you again.
Yeah. What are you studying in college?

Speaker 15 Computer I.T.

Speaker 1 Good. And obviously the military benefits are paying for that, correct?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 1 And you get a small stipend monthly also, right?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you have enough to eat on, but the debt is bearing down. Now, how much are you earning any income? Are you working at all?

Speaker 11 No. So, all my income comes from the stipend from school and then my military disability.

Speaker 1 What's the nature of your disability?

Speaker 9 Mental health and a few physical issues.

Speaker 1 Okay. You're in combat?

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Are you able to work?

Speaker 4 Yes, I am,

Speaker 15 but I do

Speaker 1 full-time.

Speaker 9 I have

Speaker 11 50-50 custody, but I have her throughout the day, and her mom gets her two nights a week and then every other weekend.

Speaker 1 Okay, so how are you going to college doing that?

Speaker 4 All online.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 6 So it's flexible enough that when you don't have her, you can do your coursework.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 How long before you graduate?

Speaker 8 I believe like two, two and a half years.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, you've had some

Speaker 1 bad stuff happen to you. You go through a divorce.
You're coming out of the military on disability.

Speaker 1 I mean, you've got some things that

Speaker 1 have kind of knocked some of the confidence out of you. Would that be fair to say?

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because I can kind of hear it in your voice a little bit. I think you're probably better than you think you are.

Speaker 1 I think I hear stuff down inside of you right there that's pretty incredible. And I think you need to tap back into that and dream again and smile again.

Speaker 1 and get past some of these things that are in your rearview mirror and quit living those over and over and over in your brain. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's just a guy talking to another guy. Dr.
John, the therapist, is not here. So me and George are stuck with.
Just us too.

Speaker 6 Well, what kind of debt is your 27,000?

Speaker 3 To break it down,

Speaker 15 my truck has $11,000 on it.

Speaker 11 It was paid off, but me and my ex-wife

Speaker 8 dumbly consolidated all of our loans and used vehicles as collateral.

Speaker 1 You got all the debt in the divorce?

Speaker 15 No, she took her personal

Speaker 11 debt and her credit cards and her vehicle that had collateral on it, and then I took all my debts and my vehicle.

Speaker 1 And her debts that were on your truck?

Speaker 11 No,

Speaker 11 we split it up, I guess, evenly, down the middle.

Speaker 1 I'm saying that you reconsolidated her debts and put them on your truck, you said, didn't you?

Speaker 15 yeah, so both of our vehicles got used as collateral.

Speaker 1 Um, oh, okay, so there was some of it on her, some of it, but I mean, you ended up paying her debt when you paid this truck off, is my point. So, okay, yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 So, here's the good news: it's only 27,000.

Speaker 1 So, if you go get a side hustle while you're going to school and taking care of your kid, in addition to your stipend, let's add $2,000 a month to the budget and we'll be done in 14 months.

Speaker 6 Yeah, so that's 500 bucks a week.

Speaker 1 500 bucks a week, man. I mean, that's not even a good part-time job.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I guess

Speaker 11 I just need to figure out what to do with my daughter mostly because I only don't have her two nights a week and every other weekend.

Speaker 1 You can make $500 during that time.

Speaker 1 When she's not there. Or you can do something with IT while she's taking a nap.
How long has the divorce been final?

Speaker 15 Since the beginning of February.

Speaker 11 So I'm still kind of like getting back on my feet.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so you're still trying to breathe.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Have you been making a budget every month?

Speaker 15 So I just recently got the every dollar back

Speaker 11 and put my budget together.

Speaker 1 Good. How's it looking?

Speaker 1 Well, it looks awful. I don't have any income.

Speaker 6 Is it all expenses and very little income? Are you drowning every month? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Has to be, isn't it? So

Speaker 4 rough, like

Speaker 11 I have money.

Speaker 8 It says I have left over to budget,

Speaker 11 and I somehow don't have it at the end of the month.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, that's you. You got to impact the budget, make the budget behave.
But, dude, a normal human being one month after divorce is not functioning at full capacity.

Speaker 1 A normal human being is still grieving, hurting,

Speaker 1 you know, playing the tapes over in your head, wondering. That's a normal person.
If you were functioning at A-plus level right now, I would call you weird. You following me?

Speaker 6 I'm at sociopath level. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're in low power mode. So I'm going to give you permission to cry a little, be mad a little.
I'm going to give you permission to hurt a little.

Speaker 1 But I'm also going to say the way you fix this is create some income.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 1 It doesn't fix the emotional stuff, but you're in the midst of this emotional turmoil. Go make some money and you can at least get rid of the stress that the debt is providing.

Speaker 1 And so let's figure out a way to bring in $500 or $1,000 a month, I mean a week, and then let's

Speaker 1 get out of debt as fast as we possibly can.

Speaker 1 And the weird thing is that when you're working and you're tired from working, you don't spend as much time going over and over and over and over all the crap in your mind.

Speaker 1 But when you're bored, you go over and over and over and over all the crap in your mind.

Speaker 6 And you spend. When you're too tired to even go spend money because you've been working, that helps too.

Speaker 1 You're right. You're right.
People that work all the time don't spend as much as those that sit at home and look at Amazon.

Speaker 6 When you're bored, that's when the scrolling starts happening.

Speaker 1 That's when the

Speaker 1 old cart gets full. Yep.

Speaker 6 And you start scrolling the ex's Instagram, see what she's up to. Ooh.
Yeah, that's dark.

Speaker 1 Ooh.

Speaker 6 That's real talk.

Speaker 1 That just happened.

Speaker 1 That just happened.

Speaker 1 Well, hey, let me, if he doesn't already have social media, get off Amazon, go work a lot.

Speaker 6 Can we give him every dollar premium in case he doesn't have it? Let's make sure we hook up our bed friend with that. So hang on the line.
Christian's going to pick up.

Speaker 6 We'll make sure that you're not paying for every dollar premium as our gift.

Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. Mike's in Hartford, Connecticut.
Hey, Mike, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 10 Hello, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Sure, what's up?

Speaker 8 Had a question about my wife and I are in a healthy amount of debt, and we're not sure if we should sell the house to get out of it to try and kind of reboot and start from ground zero.

Speaker 1 How much debt?

Speaker 14 Total is about 150.

Speaker 1 Counting the house or not?

Speaker 14 Not counting the house.

Speaker 1 How much of the 150 is cars?

Speaker 8 20.

Speaker 1 Okay. What's the other 130?

Speaker 10 About 70 in credit cards,

Speaker 10 50 in college tuition,

Speaker 10 about 3,000 in medical.

Speaker 1 Okay. So the credit cards are where you're spending more than you make.
Why?

Speaker 7 This house. hurt us when we bought it.
We had a lot of setbacks with the house and had to, because we didn't have the money to do the work.

Speaker 1 You bought a money pay.

Speaker 14 We did. We did.

Speaker 1 What's the house worth today?

Speaker 8 Probably

Speaker 8 hard to say, $650,000.

Speaker 1 What do you owe on it?

Speaker 8 $475,000.

Speaker 1 Okay, so if you had $300,000 in the middle of the table and you didn't have this house, would you go buy this house again?

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 1 Sell it.

Speaker 6 I don't think you need to refinance. You just need to sell it, pay off your debt, rent for a while, and build a foundation.

Speaker 1 Yeah, sell it and pay off your debt.

Speaker 1 You got $150,000 left over because you're going to put $300K in your pocket and you got $150,000 to start towards the next property, and you're going to buy a much better property next go-round because you are smarter from the pain.

Speaker 6 With no debt and an emergency fund.

Speaker 1 Bad thing about pain is it hurts. Good thing is, it's a freaking thorough teacher.
You won't do it again. This

Speaker 1 is the Ramsey Show

Speaker 1 in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Eric and Kelsey are with us. Hey guys, how are you? Doing it.
Good. Awesome.
How are you guys today? Better than we deserve.

Speaker 1 Where do you guys live?

Speaker 16 Ark City.

Speaker 1 Kansas? About an hour south of Wichita, Kansas. Oh, okay, fine.
Welcome to Nashville. How much debt have you paid off? Around $165,000.
Good for you. And how long did that take you? About 48 months.

Speaker 1 Good for you. Your range of income during that time? Anywhere from $65,000 to $85,000.
Cool. What do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 16 I'm a hairstylist and essentially a stay-at-home mom too.

Speaker 1 And then I'm a math teacher in middle school. Awesome.
Very cool. What kind of debt was this? $165,000?

Speaker 1 Pretty much everything.

Speaker 1 I had a truck loan and we ended up paying off our house too. Oh, it's your off and everything.

Speaker 6 I mean, ended up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just paying off the house.

Speaker 1 I just accidentally fell into that. Way to go, man.

Speaker 1 What's the house worth? Oh, about $150,000, probably. Okay.

Speaker 1 Very good. So, all right.

Speaker 1 $165, and you paid off cars and house and what else?

Speaker 1 Credit cards, pretty much everything.

Speaker 1 We were normal, basically. You had everything.
Yeah, everything. You signed up for it all and you got rid of all of it.
Yeah, before we got married, I had a bunch of debt.

Speaker 1 Kelsey didn't have any, and I brought all that to the table, and thankfully she, well,

Speaker 1 she didn't know about all that stuff, but we ended up working together to pay it off. How long have y'all been married?

Speaker 16 Just seven years last week.

Speaker 1 Our anniversary was just this past week. All right.
And so seven years, a couple years you limp along and then you go, okay, boom, we're getting on this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, COVID came around, and I was coaching and teaching, and I ended up delivering pizzas because I didn't think coaching was going to be a thing for a little while.

Speaker 1 And at that point, we're like, we got to do something about this. And we had listened to some of the show.
We just never got really serious about it.

Speaker 6 It was entertainment, but it wasn't actionable for you. You're like, that's for other people.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And so we decided, we're like, we got to take care of this.
And we ended up, we were thinking it was going to be another couple of years with the house.

Speaker 1 And Kelsey's grandmother left us an inheritance. So we ended up finishing off a little bit sooner than what we had planned, but it wasn't too much longer.
Wow. Good for you guys.
Well done.

Speaker 1 How's it feel to be free?

Speaker 1 It's awesome.

Speaker 1 First time in seven years. Yeah, absolutely.
For her. For her.
First time in more than seven years for you.

Speaker 1 It was just a lot of not very smart decisions going along, but I think, like you guys talk about a lot, it's just being normal and doing what people think is right. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Having all the trucks and the cars and the fancy things and we finally decided we're like

Speaker 1 we'll uh live like nobody else so we can live and give like nobody else later on. How often does this subject come up in middle school math now?

Speaker 1 And well, I actually I got to teach a course last year and I was like, I can actually teach to this now because I'm I'm following the process and um it's like kids are always like, when am I ever going to use this in my life?

Speaker 1 Well I was like, well, you can't negative numbers are a real thing and the bigger those negatives get, the far the harder it is to come back the other direction.

Speaker 1 So I'm obviously the nerd in our household, so Kelsey's more of this free spirit.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well done. Good job, you guys.

Speaker 6 That's impressive. How old are you guys to have a paid-for-house at this age?

Speaker 16 Go ahead. I'm 30.

Speaker 1 And I'm 36. Wow.
That's how weird.

Speaker 1 Wow. That's awesome, man.
You guys are amazing weirdos.

Speaker 6 A lot of hustle, a little bit of legacy, and you guys are free. Yes.
Yeah. As you enter your 30s.
That's incredible.

Speaker 1 What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? I think the biggest thing is just being on the same page.

Speaker 16 Definitely. Stay on the same page.
Stay in your own lane. Don't be looking at influencers and all the things that they try to tell you to go and buy.

Speaker 1 We got the Every Dollar Budget app probably three years ago, and it really

Speaker 1 accelerated that process for us.

Speaker 16 Because he knows a lot in his head, but I'm just like, what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, the app puts it down where you can see it too. Yes.
Yeah, and it makes his brain actually do that that way. It's a powerful thing.
It is. It's like taking a thought and writing it down.
Yes.

Speaker 1 It's way different once you communicate it, which makes for a better marriage.

Speaker 6 Absolutely. It's less surprises.

Speaker 1 Yes. 100%.
And arguments that sometimes come with those surprises. Yeah.
Maybe, maybe not. They might.
That could happen. Yeah.
I don't know anybody like that.

Speaker 1 Good job, you guys. What do you tell people the key is? The budget? Is that it?

Speaker 1 And working together. Staying together?

Speaker 1 All right, very good. So now you're 30 years old and 36 years old.

Speaker 1 You don't have a single payment of any kind

Speaker 1 anywhere.

Speaker 1 How does that feel? Well, we've already been able to add a line item to our budget that just says giving and giving three or four hundred dollars every month to people that need stuff.

Speaker 1 We can help out, not have to worry about doing those. And also being able to spend.
I know the people before us were talking about shopping.

Speaker 1 We're talking about maybe going to the Opry on Wednesday night and listening to all the big-name country music artists. It's better.

Speaker 1 They're in Nashville. You ought to do the Grand Oll Opry, man.

Speaker 1 Just doing,

Speaker 1 by the way, though.

Speaker 1 Being able to do stuff like that is just freedom. That freedom that you guys talk about.

Speaker 1 You can make a decision like that

Speaker 1 while you're on the road. I like it.
It's good stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Wow. I'm impressed.
So you've been staying at home now for a few years. How long has it been?

Speaker 16 I'm part-time. So I go in a few days a week and do some hair and everything.
But most of the time, staying with the girls for about two years now.

Speaker 6 Wow. Did it take the weight off when you became debt freaks? I know staying at home is a luxury for a lot of people where they go, we can't afford it.
And now you guys can afford it.

Speaker 16 We can. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's incredible.

Speaker 1 Good job. All right.
And you brought the kiddos with you. Are some of them going to join you for the scream? I think so.
All right. What are their names and ages? Let's have them come on up.

Speaker 16 We have Emmy, who is five, and then Hannah, if she's going to join us, she is two.

Speaker 6 She'll decide. She will.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 We'll let her make that call. Okay.

Speaker 1 We have a four-month-old too. We do have a summer call.

Speaker 1 Her name's McKenzie. Oh, okay.
Oh, man. You got some little ones.
Yes, we do.

Speaker 1 You are a busy mom. I like it.
Oh, cute.

Speaker 6 I hope you're watching on YouTube or the Ramsey Network app because this is precious.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we got some cuteness going here. This is a family tree that's been changed.

Speaker 1 These girls don't even know how powerful their mom and dad are, but someday they'll look back and go, Yeah, we took that trip to Nashville.

Speaker 1 I barely remember it, but that's the year mom and dad changed our whole family tree because they paid a price to win. Way to go, you two.
Proud of you. Good work.

Speaker 1 Eric and Kelsey, $165,000 paid off in 48 months. House and everything.
Wichita, Kansas area, making $65,000 to $85,000 a year. Count it down.
Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Speaker 1 Three, two, one.

Speaker 1 We're debt-free.

Speaker 1 I love it.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 6 Never gets old.

Speaker 1 That transformation.

Speaker 6 Because it's so much more than just money. It's not like, oh, we've got a truck paid off.
It's more than that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and

Speaker 1 what keeps running through my head is how

Speaker 1 modestly they have lived in a low cost of living area, $165,000 house, making $65,000 to $85,000, and have become 100% debt-free house and everything.

Speaker 1 Now, they're in Kansas in a small town, but

Speaker 1 and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But, you know, my point is, some of you call call in and act like this stuff is not possible.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, sometimes geography has something to do with what's possible.

Speaker 1 Those numbers don't work

Speaker 1 in some areas.

Speaker 1 They're not even a reality, and they haven't been a reality in 20 years in some areas. But they're a reality there, that is their reality, and that's the choices that they made that fit that.

Speaker 1 So a middle school math teacher. is now 100% debt-free.

Speaker 1 And some of you make serious money, and all you do is walk around acting like George and Dave don't have a clue. It can't be ganged.
They're out of touch when I get it. They just don't understand.

Speaker 1 They don't really know the real numbers out here in the real world. Yeah, we do.
We talk to more people than you do, Bubba. So you're the one that's wrong.

Speaker 1 And you need to sit down and look at yourself and go, it's time for me to do this stuff. If those people can do this,

Speaker 1 if those people can do this on $65,000, $85,000 a year and pay off $165,000 in 48 months and have a paid for house at 30 and 36 years old, then by God, you can do it.

Speaker 6 And And our millionaire study, they revealed one out of three millionaires never made six figures in their working lifetime.

Speaker 6 So it's not always about income. It's about what you do with it.
And the earlier you get it, the better chance you have of living your best life and building wealth. That's exactly what you're doing.

Speaker 6 So getting it at 30, goodness gracious, I can't imagine where they're going to be 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, unless something really screws up, they'll be millionaires.

Speaker 6 Don't go backwards.

Speaker 1 They're heading that way. I mean,

Speaker 1 there's very little that's going to slow them down or keep them from getting there, especially at their age.

Speaker 6 The momentum is just starting.

Speaker 1 Pretty incredible. I love it.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 George Camel, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us, America.

Speaker 1 Tamima and Ophir, I think I got close on that. Is that close, guys, or on the line from Trenton, New Jersey? Did I get even close on those names?

Speaker 2 Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 Cool. How can we help?

Speaker 17 Hi.

Speaker 18 I've been listening to you guys for years from Israel, and I'm honored to have the opportunity to speak with you now from New Jersey.

Speaker 18 We're finally at the point financially where we can save money and put your plan in place.

Speaker 18 As we build our emergency fund on Baby Step 3, the only debt we ever took out with our mortgage, we are worried that we might run into an emergency that we won't be able to to fund alone.

Speaker 18 My husband's worried that without owning a credit card and building credit, we won't be able to to borrow our way out of a big emergency if the need arises.

Speaker 18 We don't have any close family ties to rely on in case of an emergency, and we want to set ourselves up for success.

Speaker 18 We're also kind of frustrated through baby step three. So, if you have any words of encouragement and what would we do about big emergencies? And also, without a credit card,

Speaker 18 we were not able last week to take out to rent a car. We had to actually rely on a credit card that we still had with us, luckily from Israel.

Speaker 18 What would we do in those kinds of situations without a credit card?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you're Israeli citizens?

Speaker 17 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And you have now moved to the States permanently?

Speaker 17 We have now moved to the States. We're living here.

Speaker 1 Okay. Are you dual citizens or green cards? Yeah.

Speaker 18 Well, I'm a dual citizen. We're applying for my husband's green card right now.

Speaker 1 Right. Now that you're married.
Okay.

Speaker 18 All right. Yeah, we've been married for almost 10 years.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. But you've been living in Israel.
Right. Okay.

Speaker 1 And what brings you to the States?

Speaker 18 My husband's learning in Princeton

Speaker 18 on a full scholarship and a stipend.

Speaker 1 Excellent. Okay, cool.
Well, welcome. We're glad you're here.
Thank you. All right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I think it's fair to say

Speaker 1 that living in Israel would give you a different perspective on emergencies than living in Trenton, New Jersey. Would that be fair?

Speaker 18 Pretty much.

Speaker 17 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I've been blessed to visit Israel several times, and depending on where you're walking around,

Speaker 1 you feel absolute peace or sometimes absolute tension in the air.

Speaker 17 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so,

Speaker 1 I mean, I've had that experience as a tourist, and so as a

Speaker 1 as a resident of the land, I'm sure you did too. So

Speaker 1 I think if I'm in your shoes, I'm going to say out loud that that affects my view of these things,

Speaker 1 of these questions you're asking. Were you living in

Speaker 1 Trenton, New Jersey, you would have all this time, the last 10 years, you probably would have a different view of what an emergency is.

Speaker 1 Right. We're going to say that, or what the need of a credit card is or the role of debt is.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Because there's almost no credit card debt in Israel but everyone lives in overdraft correct correct yeah which is a similar version of a credit card but it sucks even worse yeah yeah so since that was not a blessing let me tell you the credit card won't be a blessing either so little little item number one you can rent a car with a debit card you just can't rent it from everyone every time and so you have to be selective and you have to prearrange and you have to do a little bit of work i haven't had a credit card uh in 30 years, and I rented a car last week.

Speaker 1 Okay, so it can be done, but there's a process, and you can't just walk up to the airline counter like you did and just go, oh, and they go, no, you just got here from Israel.

Speaker 1 We're not giving you a rental car. No, not happening.
Okay, so there's a process there. So that's, again, part of the idea of, no.
Okay.

Speaker 1 The second thing is the last thing you want to do, Ophir, because you're the one who brought this up, in the middle of an emergency, is go deeper into debt.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 1 Right? I mean, what's this doing? It causes the emergency to be worse.

Speaker 12 I just worry because everything here has a very different amount of money than I used to.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 12 the more we get sued for, I don't know what, we don't have $70,000 to spend on lawyers and all that. We don't have family to support that.
So if we have any incident like that, I would like to.

Speaker 1 There's not a plan.

Speaker 1 If someone sues you for $700,000, there's not a financial plan that covers that.

Speaker 1 The only financial plan that covers that is getting good insurance for like your car, your home, in case someone in that situation sued you.

Speaker 1 But just people walking around don't get sued for $70,000, just walking around in America. It doesn't happen unless you do something that causes that to happen, and you're not going to, okay?

Speaker 1 So that's a random fear. I don't know where that came from.
Maybe too much television or something, but it's a random fear.

Speaker 18 We hear that in America people sue each other a lot.

Speaker 17 That doesn't happen as much as possible.

Speaker 1 They do a lot more than they should, and

Speaker 1 they do a lot more than they do in Israel, but not enough that that is something that's going to cause you guys to go broke.

Speaker 12 If I'm riding my bike and I'm like, I don't know, hit somebody. I don't know.
It could be here. In Israel, everything is free in medical terms, but here everything is tens of thousands of dollars.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 You need good medical insurance. You need good car insurance.
You need whatever.

Speaker 18 Nobody's saying if you hit somebody else.

Speaker 1 I understand. I understand.

Speaker 1 If you hit someone else and you have liability insurance, they cover that. Okay.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 you buy basic insurance policies for those things, and that takes care of that.

Speaker 17 You don't have a car.

Speaker 18 That's how part of how we're, that's why it's a bike. It's not.
So liability insurance is not as easy as you don't have a car.

Speaker 1 I'm not worried about you getting sued riding a bike.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. I have zero concern about that.
Okay. Okay.
It's just not, it's not, it's not the thing that's going, that doesn't happen. Okay.

Speaker 1 It's not like you bump into somebody with a bike and they go, oh, this guy's got money. I'm going to get some.
No, he's got a bike. He's not exactly a target.
Okay. People.

Speaker 6 There's a much higher chance someone would hit you on the bike than you hitting them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 6 So you might win a lawsuit out of this.

Speaker 1 So you, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to do that.
It's not how you get rich. Okay.
So anyway, I think what is happening is that you're just going to settle into a different culture.

Speaker 1 And what you're seeing immediately is all the negative things, the higher prices, the potential for getting sued. And both of those things are things that can be navigated is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 And having $100,000 in your bank account will not keep that from happening. So goal one is stay out of debt.

Speaker 1 Goal two is let's start building some savings for a good emergency fund, three to six months of expenses. And I've taught that in America for 30 years.

Speaker 1 I have had almost no one tell me that that was not enough. Millions and millions and millions of people listen to this show every day.

Speaker 1 And very few times does somebody call me up and go, you know, three to six months, if I'd have had seven months, I'd have been okay. They don't bring that up, okay?

Speaker 1 Because usually your emergencies are way under that if you actually have one, or you have insurance to pick it up, or you have something else. And so that you're going to be okay if you do that.

Speaker 6 If your expenses are five grand and you have six months worth, that's $30,000.

Speaker 6 How many emergencies out of pocket would be over $30,000?

Speaker 1 Close to zero. None.
None, yeah. So it just doesn't happen.
So you're going to be fine on that. And so you don't want to build credit.

Speaker 1 It's the same as going into overdraft in your home country, and it's not a prosperity method. It doesn't cause prosperousness.

Speaker 6 The debt will not protect you. It will just expose you.

Speaker 1 It just makes it worse. And so, yeah.

Speaker 1 so so we're going to stay out of debt we're going to build an emergency fund and the main goal here is go ahead and keep your immigration papers moving keep your green card stuff moving and let's get the incomes going uh and you know let's enjoy the land of the free uh enjoy the peace that you're in uh uh you know uh and that you may not have been able to experience there depending on where in Israel you were.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 and how it operated. So, you're not looking over your shoulders.
There's no one lobbing rockets into Trenton, New Jersey. And so,

Speaker 1 let's just enjoy that part of it and use that relative safety to

Speaker 1 go accentuate your careers and go make a bunch of money.

Speaker 1 And that's what I want you to do.

Speaker 6 I'll send you guys a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. Read the credit score chapter.
I walk you through exactly how to rent a car without a score with every caveat available.

Speaker 6 So, that will really give you guys some some peace.

Speaker 1 Well, and it'll give you a lot of the other traps to watch for so that, because the last thing you want to do is get Americanized in a negative way. Do not

Speaker 1 be following all the trends.

Speaker 6 You do not follow the trends. You will fall for the traps.

Speaker 1 All the stuff in George's book I'll outline and help you avoid that.

Speaker 1 That's the Ramsey Show.