If You're Intentional With Money, You Can Win With Money

Speaker 1 Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Me and Dr.
John Deloney are coming to a city near you on the Money and Relationships Tour. It's happening soon.
So don't wait.

Speaker 1 Get your tickets at ramseysolutions.com slash tour.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality number one best-selling author, and host of the new hit on Ramsey Network's front row seat, where he is interviewing big names and going really deep in these interviews.

Speaker 1 It's a wonderful show. Be sure to check it out.
JD is going to start this hour in Dayton, Ohio. Hi, JD.
What's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 1 It's an honor to speak to you. You too.

Speaker 2 I have a question.

Speaker 2 Trying to get through this.

Speaker 2 About five weeks ago, my wife out of nowhere said she wanted to separate.

Speaker 2 Came out of nowhere. Our marriage definitely had its ups and downs.
We've always worked through it. Some other things I found out, but

Speaker 2 we're living apart right now.

Speaker 2 And about two weeks into this, she split up the finances completely without even telling me.

Speaker 2 So my question is, how do I best navigate this through this separation? Since we do, we are still legally and biblically married.

Speaker 2 How do we navigate handling finances right now?

Speaker 1 You separate them as if you're divorced.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And then if there is

Speaker 1 an answer to prayer and reconciliation and you get back together, you recombine them.

Speaker 1 Okay. You have direct deposit on your payroll?

Speaker 2 Yes, and so does she.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 go open a new checking account and have your check sent to your checking account.

Speaker 2 But the thing that I don't, that I'm weary of is that she can see what I'm doing, but I can't see what she's doing.

Speaker 1 Not if you do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she has access to my account.

Speaker 1 Not anymore. You're going to go close that and open a new account.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 it was a joint account.

Speaker 1 Close it.

Speaker 2 I'm just like, but she basically wants to continue paying down our debts.

Speaker 1 Well, that's her problem. She's the one causing all this.
So

Speaker 1 you asked me what you should do. What you should do is separate as if you are getting divorced.

Speaker 1 You should go open a new checking account, have direct deposits sent over there, and then you pay what bills you're agreeing to pay during this separation while you negotiate the terms of the divorce, who gets what bills.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 If all of that gets sidetracked and you end up reconciling, then you just go back to a joint account and you reconcile.

Speaker 2 Because that's what I'm hoping and praying for. We're both in counseling.

Speaker 2 We're seeing the same counselor, but separate.

Speaker 2 There was an affair on not my part.

Speaker 2 But I'm still willing to work through this. But I think the issue is our income is a lot different because I have a lot of chronic health issues, so I don't make as much.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 the amount of debt that I have, I can't cover by myself. So that's why she was okay with like, hey, if you need money, we can like work as a team to get everything paid off.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, you can send her a list of the bills that she needs to help you pay, but that doesn't mean you have to have combined checking accounts.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. Because here,

Speaker 1 John Deloney taught me a saying, and he taught me by sitting at my right like Ken Coleman is right now. He says that behavior is a language.

Speaker 1 I heard two very disturbing behaviors for the future of your marriage in this conversation so far.

Speaker 1 Not verbiage, but actual behaviors. Behavior number one, she's sleeping with someone else.
Behavior number two, she separated the money without even telling you.

Speaker 1 None of these two behaviors say you're getting divorced.

Speaker 2 Well, I do have to say the affair was emotional, and it's kind of on the back burner, and he's going back to his wife. So

Speaker 2 I think that's burning out.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and she separated the money. So I don't believe that.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yet.

Speaker 1 I hope that's all right. And I hope you guys get back together.
And I hope you're able to work your way through this.

Speaker 1 You're part of it. But in the meantime, you said, what would I do with my money? I would separate it completely.
I would just completely separate it.

Speaker 1 and then if there are some common things we need to work on you'll write your check towards that she can write her check towards that but that but we don't need to have everything in one pile anymore

Speaker 1 because she's doing a lot of sudden emotional things that that are not pointing towards reconciliation

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I think

Speaker 2 what I didn't like is since I'm self-employed,

Speaker 2 one part of our, we had like one big account, but we had like checking, savings, savings, savings for like my taxes, medical, housing, and she divided all of that up so I don't even have everything that I need for to pay the tax, the tax bill that I have coming up.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, she, you know, she doesn't have that right.

Speaker 1 She can't take money out of that account that has your name on it in this situation. The divorce court won't undo that, and the judge would hand the money back to you.
So

Speaker 2 do you think I should sit down and just say, hey, what exactly is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think you try to get some clarity.

Speaker 2 What exactly? Do you have okay?

Speaker 1 Well, you know, and where's my dad gun money, by the way? Hello? That'd be something I'd want to know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The money that was for my taxes, it just disappeared a minute ago, and we had set that aside for taxes. It needs to be there, and it needs to go to taxes.
So I need that put back like now.

Speaker 1 And no, you can't buy your boyfriend a car.

Speaker 2 And there's about $20,000 set aside for we were saving up for a home. $10,000 of that came from her boss.

Speaker 1 So I don't know where she was. I don't care where it came from.

Speaker 1 It's common property now.

Speaker 1 Okay. And you have as much right to it as she does.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. So,

Speaker 1 you know, we have a $20,000 savings account. You can't just make off with that money.
You don't have that option legally.

Speaker 2 Because since we don't have kids, she was kind of wanting to push towards just doing a disillusion if it gets to that.

Speaker 1 Not the way this is working so far.

Speaker 1 Okay. Because she's much better at negotiating so far than you are.

Speaker 2 You're right. And because I did speak to a divorce attorney in my family, advised me to do that.
Yes. Respect my rights.
And it sounds like

Speaker 2 going that route would be more expensive for her because she makes so much more money than me and she's got a 401k.

Speaker 1 It's not more expensive for her. It means that you get what the law says you get in the event of a divorce.

Speaker 1 The other route, you get what she says she's going to give you because you're going along with everything. So no, yeah, you need some help in your corner, dude.

Speaker 3 Yeah, JD, I'm just listening to this entire exchange with Dave, and I think you've got to separate hoping and praying for this marriage from protecting yourself.

Speaker 3 Protecting yourself doesn't mean that you can't hope and pray. So it's like, do the counseling, hope, pray, do everything you can that it does work out.

Speaker 3 But at the same time, you must protect yourself and stand up for yourself in the midst of this. She's just rolling all over you.

Speaker 3 And it feels like in some cases, I heard you almost making excuses for her. And I think you got to stop that.
Hoping for the best, but also have some sense and protect yourself.

Speaker 3 So there's got to be a mental approach to this

Speaker 3 alongside the emotional. And boy, my heart breaks for you, JD.

Speaker 1 I mean, I feel for you. I can't imagine.

Speaker 3 But you need a mental strategy while you're dealing with this emotional mess. And that's what Dave's telling you.

Speaker 1 My friend that does divorce counseling says that divorce turns a marriage into a business transaction. And so far in this conversation, you suck at this business.

Speaker 1 So you need to separate this, protect, and then come from a position of strength with an attorney in your corner of how we're going to reconcile or how we're going to split equitably under the law, not under what she wishes.

Speaker 1 She's got this fantasy in her head. that is not reality and she's getting ready to find that out.
This is the Ramsey Show.

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Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us.
If you've ever run a business or are running a business or know someone that is, you know one thing.

Speaker 1 It's hard.

Speaker 1 It's rough. It's tough.
As a matter of fact, when you become self-employed, you will discover you have a jerk for a boss. That person will work you into the dirt.

Speaker 1 I mean, they will work you like a rented mule. It's crazy.
Some of you don't even know what that means. But anyway, I know.
So here's the thing. It's also a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 I've been running this business for almost 40 years now from a card table in my living room. And it's just a straight up, it's a dadgum adventure every day.

Speaker 1 There's always something wild and wacky that you don't see coming. It's a blast.
And you need a path, a clear path to get through and to grow the business.

Speaker 1 We have developed that from our experiences at Ramsey and also coaching about 10,000 small businesses for the last decade or so through entree leadership. And the path is this.

Speaker 1 There's five proven stages of business, particularly small business, and there's six drivers that drive you through those five stages.

Speaker 1 In other words, if you understand that framework, you've got the baby steps for a small business. And I just did it in a book.
The book's coming out April 15th. It's on sale right now.

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And we're going to take you through this entree leadership framework and show you.

Speaker 1 It's not going to make your business instantly easy. It's not an easy button.
It's not a panacea, but

Speaker 1 it is a clear thing, and

Speaker 1 it will at least tell you where you're going. It's good to have a map, even if the road is bumpy, right? And so we're going to show you how.
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Speaker 1 And also early access to the e-book itself and the audiobook on this book is pretty incredible.

Speaker 1 Yes, I did voice it, but we also did a bunch of enhancements to where it feels a little bit more like a podcast than an audiobook.

Speaker 1 And so you're really going to like that if you're an audiobook person. Pre-order at ramseysolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or on a podcast.

Speaker 1 Derek's in Florence, South Carolina. Hey, Derek, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 So what's up is my current situation. I'm set to be in the hearing of my dad's business over the next 12 months.

Speaker 2 Right now I work with him in the same business, so it's not like it's anything new as far as learning too much other than than you know having a lot more payroll expenses but my main question is really it's gonna be a big change of income for me it'll be roughly tripling my income or so I'm making about 150 right now and I'll be making 450 to 550 or so over the next year and there's gonna be expenses in there but it'll still be a lot of extra net income So my question is really,

Speaker 2 I don't know exactly what I should be doing with extra income.

Speaker 2 Obviously, I might have some more expenses with marketing or something, but I, of course, want to be in better financial position and not get too ahead of myself and just throw money away.

Speaker 2 So trying to get some insight of what to do with that and trying to play my cards in the best way I can.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 You're inheriting the business. Did your dad pass?

Speaker 2 No, I'm sorry. He's retiring.
So he's been in the, we have an assurance agency together.

Speaker 2 I've been working with him the past 10 years, and he's looking at retiring sometime between the end of this year and beginning of next year within the next 12 months.

Speaker 2 So he'll be giving the business to me. So I'll be inheriting his book of business, the whole agency.

Speaker 1 So are you buying him out?

Speaker 2 I'm not. No, he is giving it to me.

Speaker 2 I've offered to give him something in the past, actually, but he doesn't want to take my money. So that's

Speaker 1 basically you're getting the book of business. And how how many employees have you got?

Speaker 2 We have it'll be about four employees that we pay.

Speaker 1 So how's he going to eat? How's he he's obviously built a nice retirement nest egg, huh?

Speaker 2 He has and he's done some he's done some development.

Speaker 2 He's built a few development projects over the past few years and said that's really his retirement egg right there and then plus whatever he's had from insurance over the years.

Speaker 2 Okay. All right, cool.
Yeah, so he'll be fine without anything here.

Speaker 1 He's he'll be good.

Speaker 1 So basically he's this this is the this is the transition. He's tossing you the keys and you got this puppy.
So your question is how to handle the increase in income responsibly.

Speaker 2 Right, correct.

Speaker 2 I've had a, you know, in my history, I've always lived pretty comfortably, but, you know, whenever I do get more money, I tend to spend it on things that are stupid and, you know, try to,

Speaker 2 you know, not spend more than I have. I'm not in debt necessarily, but not having a whole bunch of extra

Speaker 2 savings coming coming in.

Speaker 1 I'm 33. Are you married?

Speaker 2 I am married, one kid.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.

Speaker 1 Well, here's the thing. Very few people do something stupid intentionally.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 if left to a vacuum is where stupid sneaks in.

Speaker 1 And so what I mean is, is that you're being very wise right now, the opposite of stupid, in that you say, okay, I need a plan for this because if I don't have a plan, I'm going to have a problem.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And so what I would do is sit down with your wife and say,

Speaker 1 write down what we're going to do with $450,000 this year.

Speaker 1 What are we going to do with it?

Speaker 1 And then do that with it.

Speaker 2 Well, and the thing is, you know, talk about some of the stupid things, you know, and maybe not stupid things is not the right word, but we bought a house in the past two years.

Speaker 2 That was certainly structuring our income. So a big portion of what we make right now goes to, you know, paying the mortgage.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 The same thing applies. Okay.
I now have $450,000 for the coming 12 months. Write down exactly in detail what I'm going to do with it.
So you're telling me $150,000 is what you were making.

Speaker 1 The house payment's a strain. The house is a strain.
So you may want to, you know, okay, we're going to raise our living budget to $200,000,

Speaker 1 which still leaves me $250,000. I need to decide what I'm going to do with it.
There's only three things you can do with money, by the way. Invest it, save it, enjoy it,

Speaker 1 and give it.

Speaker 1 And you probably ought to do all three

Speaker 1 with the extra $250.

Speaker 1 So out of that $250, you two look at each other with the kid in bed and the TV off and the phones face down, and you look at each other deeply in the eyes and say, all right, how much of this $250 are we going to invest?

Speaker 1 How much are we going to spend on fun? And how much are we going to be outlandishly generous with?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and we've talked about it. One thing to the wife, she's always wanted to have a barn in our yard, and we have a few acres so we can make that happen, I guess.
But

Speaker 2 trying to see how lavish, I guess, we want to have a barn and pasture and everything in the backyard. So, that's one thing we talked about wanting to have in the next five years, potentially.

Speaker 1 Well, then let's say, all right, what's the barn going to cost? I got a five-year plan, I need to set aside one-fifth of that per year out of this money. That's an example of what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 So, you guys need to, you know,

Speaker 1 right now this is all up in the clouds, and it's bouncing around inside your head, and it does not have any organization. I'm telling you to write it down like it's a dadgum business plan.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I want to add in here really quick.

Speaker 3 I'm listening to you Derek.

Speaker 3 We know from research that whatever we focus on, in other words, we allow a thought to stay in our head and we fixate on that thought, then what happens is our brain goes and takes pictures of it everywhere.

Speaker 3 So in other words, if somebody starts their day off feeling like a victim, then the rest of the day, their brain is going to go look for evidence of this thought.

Speaker 3 Now, this is like basic neuroscience, all right? Now, here's what's happening. All throughout the conversation with you, Dave,

Speaker 3 I heard Derek, I heard you say, I heard shame. I did dumb in the past.
I did stupid in the past. And Dave would tell you, do this.

Speaker 1 Lay it out.

Speaker 3 Set a budget. You know, be intentional.
And you kept coming back to. And I just want to encourage you.
I think you're so ashamed and so embarrassed.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to say a little bit of fear that you're going to do something dumb again.

Speaker 3 And it's because you're so focused on what you've done in the past instead of going, all right, Dave told me what to do. Have a written plan.
And we're going to decide.

Speaker 3 And we're not going to let the wife and me get excited and talk about a lavish barn. No, we're going to say we'd like to have a barn.
Here's what good, better, and best would look like.

Speaker 3 So I just want you to start focusing on that you aren't going to do something stupid in the future with money if you're intentional. I think that's got to be the new thought in your mind.

Speaker 3 I can be intentional with money. Therefore, I can win with money.
And I think that'll change its perspective.

Speaker 1 Intentionally give some of it, intentionally save some of it, intentionally enjoy some of it be in agreement in detail with your spouse exactly how much and then live what you write down and you won't do stupid then you'll be fine that's right this is the ramsey show

Speaker 5 all right dave you have some strong opinions

Speaker 1 possibly yeah i think so okay because you really prefer credit unions over big banks so why why is that well credit unions for one thing are non-profit which means that the members, the customers, own the credit union.

Speaker 1 So any profits that the credit union makes goes back into customer pricing. So you get better interest rate on savings, cheaper checking, and so on, that kind of thing.
And

Speaker 1 what's more important than that, though, is the fact that the customer is the owner changes the spirit. on the credit union.
So I find very few credit unions that aren't very customer-centric.

Speaker 5 Yes. Well, and I think we have found one that is incredible, and that's that's Fairwinds.
They are an incredible credit union that is really out with the heart to help the customer.

Speaker 1 You know, that's why we're partnering with them because

Speaker 1 they've got a scope to be able to handle the Ramsey audience, and they're the right kind of people with the right kind of values. And they've done a really, really good job with customer service.

Speaker 1 And the deals that they're offering, the Ramsey tribe, is incredible. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 And you're right. Their customer service is unbelievable.
Winston and I just signed up and we got an account. And I'm not kidding.

Speaker 5 It took less than five minutes. It was so user-friendly.
Like the step-by-step approach was unbelievable. And then the next day, my phone rings and it says Fairwinds on my phone.

Speaker 5 So I answered it and talked to someone there. And they said, yeah, they give calls to every new customer.
And so, again, they just really care about your experience. And I, I so, so appreciate that.

Speaker 5 So again, you guys, I know it can be a pain to switch banks or to open up new accounts, but Fairwinds, again, they make it so easy.

Speaker 5 Plus, anything that you can do at a traditional traditional branch, you can do with them at fairwinds.org or on their app. And you'll have free access to over 33,000 ATMs.

Speaker 1 Hey, you guys know how much I hate banks in general. And so for me to do this is a big deal.

Speaker 1 Talk to our friends at Fairwinds and check out the combined checking and savings bundle that they created just for the Ramsey tribe. You guys, it's incredible.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you guys, it's so easy to join Fairwinds no matter where you live. So go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey to learn more.
That's F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey.

Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us. Open phones at 888-825-5225.
Kate is in Bozeman, Montana. Hi, Kate.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 I'd like your opinion on whether or not I should go back to Baby Step 2 and help my husband. I've been working in the Ramsey for just under a year, and so I'm a lot farther than him.

Speaker 2 I think I'm on six.

Speaker 2 So now that he's fully on board, I'm just wondering if I should go back and start helping him.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah, you've been doing it wrong.
So yes, you should.

Speaker 1 You should have been with him all along.

Speaker 1 You're married. So

Speaker 1 definitely you should combine your goals. You should combine your dreams.

Speaker 1 You should plan to be married a long time. And you should

Speaker 1 combine all income, combine all problems, and combine all solutions. And that's the fastest and the highest probability of a high-quality marriage that becomes wealthy.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 The couples that do what you guys have been doing have a very low statistical probability in the data that we have of actually becoming wealthy.

Speaker 1 And generally, it ends up in some kind of marriage problem.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 you're not dreaming together. You're not setting a future in your mind together.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I've been trying to get him on board.
It's just he's a little stubborn, so I can't force him. I couldn't, you know, just stuff it down his throat.

Speaker 2 I just listen to like the Ramsey personality books really loudly. And

Speaker 1 being obnoxious doesn't work either.

Speaker 3 No, no, no, no. I wasn't trying to.

Speaker 1 You listen really loudly. I heard you.

Speaker 1 I love you.

Speaker 2 And if we're in the car, if we're in the car in a long trip, I'd just put one of the books on.

Speaker 1 How long have y'all been? I'm not going to.

Speaker 2 25 years. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 Wow. Are you both for separate accounts or just him?

Speaker 1 You separated your money.

Speaker 3 Is that something you both have been for this whole time or just him? Because that's another issue here.

Speaker 2 You mean separating the money?

Speaker 3 yeah you guys have separate accounts you said his consumer debts Dave said you need to do it together I'm curious are you both on that same page that you've always had separate accounts and you were fine with it or is it him or you who's driving the separation of the accounts

Speaker 2 well the when we were first married all of our money was together and he was kind of like hands-off he's like here's my paycheck just do whatever with it um but then we ran into some problems um and uh one of us had uh developed a major addiction problem so the other one of us had to do it for safety purposes because I couldn't keep the bills paid without, you know, the money being in the account.

Speaker 2 So it was separated for a reason. But now that that's been resolved, I think we're in a great place to get our finances back together.
It's just been so long now that it's kind of weird.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 So I think we're moving on to the next one. That's understandable.
That makes a lot of sense. It is awkward.
I'll give you that. And that's fair.
And

Speaker 1 the history you just laid out explains a lot, really. So, and so that part's fair.

Speaker 1 But again, where you guys paint a detailed picture of what our life looks like 20 years from now, and then we combine forces

Speaker 1 to knock down blockers and achieve the goals to get to that life. And that creates not only an incredible relationship of trust and high levels of communication and respect,

Speaker 1 but it also actually increases the probability of that life that you pictured occurring.

Speaker 1 Because it just, we find, you know, we studied 10,167 millionaires. One of the things we found among them was 89% said, my spouse and I work together.

Speaker 1 You know, and

Speaker 1 that's the proof in the pudding right there. I mean, it's like nine out of 10 of them.

Speaker 1 So 10% found a way to get there without with a reluctant spouse somehow or with a spouse that was a hardhead or a spouse that didn't want to participate or a spouse that wouldn't listen or whatever.

Speaker 1 But 89% got there by the two of us looking like two adults saying, hey, let's talk about where we want to be. Let's get agreement on where we want to be and then let's get in attack mode to get there.

Speaker 3 Dave, you've done a lot of financial counseling, crisis with couples.

Speaker 3 I'm going to bring this up for your take, but it feels like hearing what Kate just said, that this might be the last piece of the healing. That she goes, okay, you've done your work.

Speaker 3 You've cleaned up and now I'm going to trust trust you. And boy, that forgiveness in the form of trust feels like the last piece of healing and hopefully restoration for them.

Speaker 1 Well, and not only that, you know, he's more like my wife, Sharon. Sharon said, whatever you want to do, honey.
Right.

Speaker 1 And one of the things we had to come up with was we said, okay,

Speaker 1 we just can't use that phrase anymore.

Speaker 1 You can't say that anymore

Speaker 1 because I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do whatever I want to do.

Speaker 1 I'm going to do whatever we want to do. And so you're going to have to speak up and I'm not going along with this.

Speaker 1 You're going to dump it on me because then if it's not right, you're going to blame me. And I'm not okay with that.

Speaker 1 When we agree together, I told you so leaves.

Speaker 1 And so I'm not taking the responsibility for this whole thing by myself. You're going to be with me.
And I get it that I'm the nerd. I get it.

Speaker 1 I'm probably going to be the one executing a lot of the details of this. I'm the one probably writes out the stupid spreadsheet.
I'm that guy. I get all of that.

Speaker 1 But you're going to have a voice in this, a vote in this.

Speaker 1 And I don't even care if you want to. You still have to.

Speaker 1 You still have to say

Speaker 1 what we are doing together. You have to say it out loud.
You cannot say whatever you want to do, honey. And,

Speaker 1 you know, it's kind of when you're young and you're married and your wife looks at you and says, whatever you want to do, honey, you kind of stick your chest out and go, of course I'll be them.

Speaker 1 I'll take care of everything, little lady.

Speaker 1 And it's like, then you find out you're an idiot.

Speaker 1 And you really, you know, I don't want to do everything I want to do.

Speaker 1 I want to do the stuff together. It's much more effective.
I make better decisions with the other half of my brain plugged in called her.

Speaker 1 And so who can find a virtuous wife for her worth is far above rubies? The heart of her husband safely trusts her, and he will have no lack of gain.

Speaker 1 I'm convinced one of the reasons that we're very wealthy today after recovering from bankruptcy 30 years ago

Speaker 1 is not just that we've made some money, but that we work together. I trust my virtuous wife, and I have had no lack of gain.
I mean, that proverb is playing out right in front of you, boys and girls.

Speaker 1 So that's what it's about. And, Kate, I really like where y'all are having fun with this.
You're laughing about it. I'll turn it up.

Speaker 1 I'm going to be obnoxious and turn up the books, the Ramsey books, too loud, and that's fun.

Speaker 1 And, you know, you've worked through some tough stuff there in the past, and the verbiage that you use tells me it's probably way in the past. And Ken's probably exactly right that him saying,

Speaker 1 I'm going to participate in the decision-making like a grown man,

Speaker 1 not necessarily do all the detail stuff, because I can tell you, Kate's the detail nerd. Yeah, no question.

Speaker 1 But him saying that is part of him coming past the former problems and saying, all right, I actually have an opinion and it does matter, even though I have that in my past. That's right.

Speaker 1 And that's a part of his healing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's absolute restoration is what I'm hearing here. Yep.

Speaker 1 Amen. Amen.
And it's really, really powerful. It builds trust like you wouldn't believe.

Speaker 1 Joanna's with us in Youngstown, Ohio. Hi, Joanna.
How are you?

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm doing good. Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 5 Sure.

Speaker 1 What's up?

Speaker 2 So we my husband and I currently are doing the financial peace program

Speaker 2 and we're trying to pay off debt. My husband is an Army veteran and he is now a owner operator semi-truck driver.

Speaker 2 He went to buy a new truck at the beginning. He's planning on doing one this year, and they looked at our credit.
And our credit, they said, was too bad for him to get another loan for

Speaker 1 another

Speaker 2 semi.

Speaker 1 Great.

Speaker 2 Good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because now you're not that much further in debt. That was another big purchase.

Speaker 2 But this has me terrified because all we have is $1,000

Speaker 2 in savings as we're trying to pay off this debt.

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 2 And if that truck does break down,

Speaker 2 sometimes to get it back over the road, you drop $40,000 to get it back over the road.

Speaker 1 In your business, you need to have, in your business, he's running a business, you need to have retained earnings that are more than to cover repairs, a reasonable repair.

Speaker 1 But going and buying a new truck because this one might break and going another $40,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 in debt because this might break is a really stupid idea.

Speaker 1 So I'm really thankful you got turned down for that. But over in his business, he needs some retained earnings to cover repairs because he's an over-the-road truck driver.
That's common sense.

Speaker 1 Absolutely put some savings over there more than a thousand.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 3 I hate to admit this, but I don't always eat right. I know I need to eat more fruits and veggies, but sometimes I just have to pound some chips because they taste so good.

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Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today, number one best-selling author and host of Front Row Seat.

Speaker 1 You should check it out on Ramsey Networks on YouTube and podcasts and all those places that you see that Ramsey Network thing, like the Ramsey Network app, which is free.

Speaker 1 All right, Samantha's in Springfield, Illinois. Hi, Samantha.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much, Dave and Ken, for taking my phone call. I really appreciate your time.
Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 So, I have a bit of an interesting question.

Speaker 2 I am trying to figure out how to navigate graduate school as a non-traditional student.

Speaker 1 Cool. What are you going to study?

Speaker 2 So, I am a bit ambitious in that I want to do a combined MDJD program.

Speaker 1 Okay. Why?

Speaker 2 So, about a year ago, I did

Speaker 1 a

Speaker 2 I volunteered for the county, and I was working with amazing defense attorneys, and I loved the work so much. Um, I didn't realize how much I was going to enjoy it.
Um, so

Speaker 2 I started

Speaker 2 assisting them with case files, and I mean, when I came home, I was just super excited to.

Speaker 1 So what's wrong with just going to law school?

Speaker 2 Oh, nothing, actually.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 3 So, why the ambitious?

Speaker 3 Maybe explain that to us. What's the reason for going and getting this particular route?

Speaker 2 Before I wanted to be a lawyer, I was pretty headset on

Speaker 2 becoming a doctor.

Speaker 2 I currently have an associate's degree in psychology.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 just a little bit about me.

Speaker 2 I have two children. They are both in elementary school

Speaker 2 and I do work full-time. I work from home.
So that has been really helpful with navigating school.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I will be starting my bachelor's degree here in the fall.

Speaker 2 And currently how that's going to be paid is 60% of it is going to be grants, 30% of it is going to be scholarships through the university, and the rest of it will be paid for.

Speaker 1 That's great. But here's my question.

Speaker 3 But here, let me jump in because you asked us, you know, for our thoughts on how to do this. And so my question is, why are we doing this?

Speaker 3 I mean, I understand you initially wanted to be a doctor, but now it sounds like you've fallen in love with the legal side of things. Where do you want to be 10, 15, 20 years from now?

Speaker 1 MD, because if we don't have-being a medical doctor and a lawyer simultaneously serves zero purpose.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I was expecting some unicorn description here, and you don't have that. So where do you want to be 10 years, 15 years from now? Doing what?

Speaker 1 Law or medicine?

Speaker 2 So I currently work for a hospital here nearby, and I would love to continue working for them.

Speaker 2 I just thought that as far as working in their legal department, that it would be really beneficial for me to have a medical background as well.

Speaker 1 Not at all. No.

Speaker 3 No. Any doctor would tell you that.
It's not going to make you a better lawyer.

Speaker 1 I mean, you need to be smart enough to grasp the issues in the medical field of law, but you don't have to go get an MD to be an effective lawyer in the medical community. Not at all.

Speaker 1 No, that's like saying I have to be an architect to represent architects in the law field. No.

Speaker 1 Or I have to be an engineer to represent an engineer as a lawyer. No, absolutely not.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, I think you need to decide what you want to do. And

Speaker 1 it's all over the map. I think that's your issue.
And then you can start. You've already figured out how to get the

Speaker 1 bachelor's under your belt with no debt. Okay.
And then we say, okay, we're going to go to law school. All right.
What kind of law school? It's obviously going to be a non-traditional law school.

Speaker 1 Because you're not going to be able to do, you know, just stop your life and go for two years with little kids. And it's not, you know, so you're going to do some kind of

Speaker 1 a version.

Speaker 1 I don't know if it's still open here. We used to have a version here in Nashville that

Speaker 1 it was a night school. It's what we used to call it.
You go to night school and you get your, you know, you can become an attorney. Pass the ball.
That's a good question. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I knew some of the guys that went through that and they made great lawyers because they were doing it as an adult. It wasn't theory.
They were really digging in.

Speaker 1 And so something like that and then figure out a way to fund it with your day job and like you've done on your undergrad with grants and other things. And that's the way to go.

Speaker 1 But I think you need some real clarity on

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 there's what you're asking to do to go to law school in your situation is a very tough

Speaker 3 time and money.

Speaker 1 You're going to really go through a lot. If you add anything else to that plate, the plate's going to break.

Speaker 1 And so we're asking you, don't add the MD to the plate.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Dave's right.

Speaker 3 Samantha, you need to figure out the mountain. Let's figure out the mountain and then the best way to climb said mountain.

Speaker 3 Let's give her my book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. It comes with the get clear assessment.
This is going to give you tremendous clarity.

Speaker 3 When you get the results of this assessment in less than about 18 minutes, Samantha, it's going to make it really, really clear to you which choice to make.

Speaker 3 And I think you've got to listen to your heart here, not your brain. Try to do it all.
Do the thing that lights you up.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And don't listen listen to your heart to the point that your heart's telling you to do more than is humanly possible in this process because what you're laying out here is unbelievable.

Speaker 1 Jesse's in Seattle, Washington. Hi, Jesse.
How can we help?

Speaker 1 Hey, Dave, how's it going? Great, man. What's up?

Speaker 2 Well, my question for you, I'm 19 years old. I own my own company.
It's a contracting company here in the Seattle area.

Speaker 2 And I started about a year ago, and I just got my contractor's license here about two weeks ago. And my question for you, being wintertime right now, works kind of slow and very unpredictable.

Speaker 2 My question for you, should I go out and get another more steady job as well as working my company?

Speaker 2 Or since my expenses are pretty low right now and I can live on a pretty minimal amount, should I put my all into my company?

Speaker 1 What kind of contracting work have you been doing?

Speaker 2 Just a general contractor. I do just about everything, retaining walls, land clearing, concrete, just about anything.

Speaker 1 Everything you just described is inside, so it's not everything. Outside, so it's not everything.
There's inside work available, too.

Speaker 2 Okay. So, okay, yeah, I understand that.
So I do not do like inside work. Like, I don't build houses.
I don't remodel anything. Everything I do is going to be outdoors.

Speaker 1 I mean, could you do commercial build outs and tenant improvements on the inside during the winter?

Speaker 2 I could.

Speaker 2 It's not something I've gotten into yet.

Speaker 1 It's not something I don't have the know-how for.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you don't know.

Speaker 1 That's exactly right. Yes, sir.
All right.

Speaker 1 So I think that what I'm going to start to do is explore my business model and say, if I'm going to only do exterior work and I'm in Seattle, I'm going to have to have something else to do during the winter.

Speaker 2 Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, totally. 100%.

Speaker 1 So I do have another.

Speaker 2 It's kind of a,

Speaker 2 it's not very steady. It's down at the rail yard in Tacoma.

Speaker 2 I work down there when they have an excess of work. I'm maybe working there like once a week or so.
I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's 300 bucks a day. So just my work's really

Speaker 2 not very steady right now.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, so

Speaker 2 that's kind of what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 3 Go get something. Go get something is the answer to your question.
You need to be stacking cash if you're in a seasonal business. But I would also say, Dave is on something.

Speaker 3 I would see what you can do outside. What did you say the outside work is real quick? Run through that real fast.

Speaker 2 A lot of land clearing is kind of my specialty, gravel driveways, concrete, and retaining walls.

Speaker 1 I thought I heard gravel driveways.

Speaker 3 You know what I think, though?

Speaker 3 I think you'd be surprised how you getting into interior flooring could be a, there's some transfer of some of that skill when you're, when you're talking about gravel driveways and, you know, leveling, stuff like that.

Speaker 3 I'd look into stuff like that too, you know, which is an extension of what Dave was saying. You know, you're doing interior flooring.

Speaker 3 That's going on 12 months a year. And I think there's some transferable skills.

Speaker 3 So if I was you, I would be taking a list of paper today and I'd go, what are my actual specific describable skills based on that work I've been doing so far?

Speaker 3 And with a little bit of training, a little bit of observation, I can transfer that skill. That's where the biggest bang for your buck is going to be.

Speaker 3 And you're actually doing what Dave told you to do, which is now diversifying your company.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I might take a job working for another contractor doing interior work of some kind to start to learn the skills. Yeah.
And let that be your winter job.

Speaker 3 I just think if you can do gravel driveway, you can do interior concrete.

Speaker 1 You can do a lot of it. It's similar.
Concrete's concrete. Yeah.
There's no doubt about that. So yeah, I think you're exactly right.
But

Speaker 1 yeah, you need to diversify your product line. And the way to do that is go get those skills.
That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books.

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Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 Gods and grandmas ways of handling money and life. That's what we're going to talk about here.
It's a free call at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality, and host of the Front Row Seat, a new hit show on YouTube on the Ramsey Networks. Be sure and check him out.

Speaker 1 He's going to help me this hour. The phone number is 888-825-5225.
Greg's in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Greg, how are you?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave, how are you doing?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 2 So I've gotten myself into a situation where I have a couple hundred thousand in credit card debt and loans that I've let go delinquent. And my question is,

Speaker 2 Do I let it sit there and fall off my credit report?

Speaker 2 My research showed maybe it falls off in seven years, or do I attack it? And the reason I ask that is we're kind of attacking my wife's debt and my truck payment. And those debts are about $100,000.

Speaker 2 And we're using the snowball method starting that now to attack those debts. And I just cannot afford to pay these other debts.

Speaker 2 And part of my question may have been a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 What the flip did you buy for $200,000 on credit cards?

Speaker 2 A lot of stupid decisions and some bad luck. You know, just

Speaker 2 living the good life.

Speaker 1 How old are you? I'm taught up.

Speaker 2 52. And my wife is 52.
It's our second marriage.

Speaker 1 What's your household income?

Speaker 2 She is a nurse.

Speaker 2 She

Speaker 2 takes home $7,500

Speaker 2 a month. And right now, unfortunately, I'm in between jobs laid off.
And so I'm driving Uber. And I probably make...
four grand a month doing that.

Speaker 1 What were you making at your old job?

Speaker 2 On average, it fluctuated since we've been together the past five years. I'd say on average $85,000.
We bought a house in January of 2021.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 how the heck did you get a house?

Speaker 2 Well, I didn't, I had great credit before all this. So I had outstanding credit my whole life.
I had 800 credit score

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 wasn't delinquent on anything. So I bought the house.

Speaker 2 When we got into the house, it was a new build. The payment was around 3K.

Speaker 2 And then we got hit with the fact that the first year it was assessed on land value. So it shot up.
And then we got

Speaker 2 the county appraisal went up the first year before we were protected the homestead, 60%.

Speaker 2 We appealed it like all our neighbors and lost. So the house payment shot up from 3K to about 4,200.

Speaker 2 Since then, it's appreciated quite a bit. So we removed the PMI and got it down where it's about $3,500 right now.

Speaker 1 Now, what's what's it worth?

Speaker 2 That's the only good decision we made.

Speaker 2 We owe $432,000 and it's worth on the low end probably $625,000 or $6.50,000.

Speaker 1 Cool. And you have $200,000 in credit card debt and miscellaneous loans, and then you have $100,000 on cars?

Speaker 2 No, that's like my wife's card, so my wife's cars, credit cards, and loans before we got married.

Speaker 1 How much is your wife's car debt?

Speaker 2 No car debt for her.

Speaker 1 Oh, how much is your car debt?

Speaker 2 That's the first stupid decision I made.

Speaker 1 How much is your car debt?

Speaker 2 $42,000.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you're not going to like me, but I'm going to tell you the truth because I love you.

Speaker 2 Okay. That's what I want to hear.

Speaker 1 Sell the car and sell the house.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, the car.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You're not going to do either one, are you?

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 2 we have have discussed that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you need to clean house because you've got $200,000 in equity and you've got a car that's absolutely stupid in the middle of this. You bought a house that was stupid in the middle of all this.

Speaker 1 The only thing that's good is it went up in value. And then you're telling me how you can't afford it.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, I'm going to get your career back on the rails, and I'm going to pay off all my debt by selling the house and selling the car. And, oh, whoa, look at that.

Speaker 1 You're going to be renting something and you'll be debt-free. And now you start from ground zero instead of subterranean.
You have a negative net worth that's substantial right now.

Speaker 1 And you need to get back right side up on that. This is killing you.
And no, it's not going to go away, by the way, in seven years because the

Speaker 1 rule on the credit reporting is not the legal obligation. It's just how long do they report it.
The legal obligation does not go away, and they can still sue your butt at the 10-year mark.

Speaker 1 They can sue your butt at the 15-year mark, and they will.

Speaker 1 Okay? So this is not going away by just just not dealing with it, putting your hands over your ears and going la la la la la la la la, and walking through in the midst of the bears and the tigers.

Speaker 1 They're going to eat your butt. So yeah, it might fall off of your credit bureau, but it is from date of last activity, not date of,

Speaker 1 not date of default, and not date of anything else. So this is not going away until you fix it, Greg.

Speaker 1 So the way you fix it is you sell a car, you sell the house, you get your job back, you get to get to making $85,000.

Speaker 1 She's making over $120,000.

Speaker 1 And you put that together. You got a $210,000 income.

Speaker 1 You can rebuild, save up a good down payment with zero debt and buy a cash car with zero debt and then save up a good down payment on a house and get you a nice home that you can actually afford.

Speaker 1 But right now, your life is not good. I mean,

Speaker 1 you're even talking in circles. You have so much stress.
Yeah, that's what I heard.

Speaker 3 I heard the mindset of, oh, well, and I'm just going to close my mind off to all this other stuff over here and only focus on a little bit.

Speaker 3 And what's happening here is I'm not knocking him at all, but there is this defeatist attitude of fatalistic.

Speaker 1 That's right. And you're not stuck.

Speaker 3 Which is why, by the way, he's staying in the Uber car a little bit too long. I'm not against Uber.
Let me say this. And I've talked to so many people.

Speaker 3 I feel like this is becoming more and more of a thing because it's an easy thing as far as stepping from being laid off or fired into something. And I'm all for that.

Speaker 3 However, if you're not careful, you get in that car and you're picking people up and you're staying busy and you kind of go, well, this is the best I can do right now.

Speaker 3 And you got to treat those temporary jobs as just that, temporary. You are getting after it to try to replace that income, not settling for a 50% cut and just reasoning it away.

Speaker 3 And that's the reality. I don't mean to be unkind.
It's not a mean spirit. I'm saying that.
It's just, I know how the brain works, Dave. And activity starts to replace intentionality.

Speaker 3 And there's a big difference between activity and intentionality. In other words, someone tells me, well, Ken, I submitted 200 resumes today.
That's a bunch of activity, but that's not intentionality.

Speaker 3 You didn't go see somebody. You didn't go have coffee with somebody.
And so that's what we got to be careful of is not replace intentionality with activity.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I

Speaker 1 want the temporary job to be something I hate.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 So that it's temporary. Right.
Because I don't ever want to go back. I don't ever want to live like that again.
I don't ever want to have to do that.

Speaker 1 I don't ever want to have to pay that price to pay my bills.

Speaker 3 That's a great point, you know, because

Speaker 3 it's kind of nice rolling around in your car, your car, listening to your podcast, picking people up.

Speaker 1 That's nice. Yeah, I was going to say, you're kind of messing with our audience here.

Speaker 1 I mean, this is who you think is listening to you, man. You just told a whole bunch of people not to do it.

Speaker 1 But seriously, yeah, it's

Speaker 3 activity and intentionality. There's a difference.

Speaker 1 Yeah, if you take three part-time jobs to replace your old full-time job, they should all make you want to go get your old full-time job back.

Speaker 1 That's right, or something better, but not something worse. You don't want to be doing that at 52 and then look up at 62 and you're still doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 So, Greg, you're probably not going to do what I told you to do, but you should

Speaker 1 sell the car,

Speaker 1 a $45,000 car,

Speaker 1 and you're using it for a taxi.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 Think about that. Not a good use of money.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Hey, listen up. Everyone is at risk of identity theft.
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Speaker 5 All right, I want to shout out our teachers for a minute. You guys give so much to our kids every day.
And often those days stretch into your nights and weekends. Seriously, you deserve a break.

Speaker 5 And by that, I mean a dream vacation. All you have to do is enter the Ramsey Teacher Appreciation Giveaway sponsored by Ramsey Education.

Speaker 5 There's no purchase needed to win and you'll get bonus entries if you refer your teacher friends. Just go to ramseysolutions.com slash teacher.
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Speaker 1 Money and relationships can be two of the biggest stressors in life if you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or uncertain, you're not alone. Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney and me, Dave Ramsey, we're going on tour to six cities with the Money and Relationships Tour.

Speaker 1 You're going to learn how to take control and shift your mindset around money and relationships for good uh it's going to be a different kind of experience at these events we're going to put up a list of topics before the show starts for the live audience and you're going to vote with your app and then we're going to do the topics you vote for i like that that's kind of fun i like that that's a little bit a little bit uh stressful but i think we can do it

Speaker 1 like me and john are add both enough that we can just kind of pull from the holster and shoot and re-holster right i was going to say you the tool belt's got plenty of tools.

Speaker 1 Hey, Louisville, Kentucky, April 21st, get your tickets. Durham, North Carolina, April 23rd, Atlanta, April 25th in the Fox Theater.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a great venue. It's a cool venue.
It's a great old venue down there. Phoenix, Arizona, we're going to be over there.
May 5th, Fort Worth on May 7th, and Kansas City on May 9th.

Speaker 1 Don't wait. Tickets are selling out on these.
They're not yet gone, but you don't want FOMO on this. So there you go.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you just do want to be there. That's how that Go to ramseysolutions.com/slash tour.
Or if you're on YouTube or podcast, click the link.

Speaker 3 Will there be any fine bourbon on the stage in Louisville?

Speaker 1 I doubt it.

Speaker 1 Unless it's backstage.

Speaker 3 You're not bringing it on stage.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure that I need my brain dumbed down by that in this environment.

Speaker 3 No, that would definitely be a problem.

Speaker 1 Matter of fact, I'm sure I don't need my brain dumbed down in that environment. But yeah, it could happen.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Louisville has access to some of that.

Speaker 1 Liz is in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Liz, how are you?

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh. Hi.

Speaker 2 I'm so nervous. Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I've been with my boyfriend.

Speaker 2 I've been with a man for four years now. He's 17 years older than I am, and it's been quite emotionally abusive, and I'm trying to leave.
But I have $23,000 in debt.

Speaker 2 I only really count $6,000 of that because 17 of it is car, which

Speaker 2 I feel like y'all are going to tell me to get rid of it, but I don't want to.

Speaker 2 I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate like paying off this $6,000 because it's affecting me of getting it's affecting me from getting a place of my own right now.

Speaker 2 And I have a bonus from work coming up, and I'm just like, I don't know how to navigate it.

Speaker 1 How old are you?

Speaker 2 I'm 27.

Speaker 1 And how much money do you make, honey?

Speaker 2 I make $2,400 a month.

Speaker 1 Doing what?

Speaker 2 I work for a very, very large health insurance company. I was a customer advocate.

Speaker 1 And so you work 40 hours?

Speaker 3 Yes. Do you have any kind of education or training?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, one of the...
You're a high school graduate?

Speaker 1 Yes. No college?

Speaker 1 No. Okay.
All right.

Speaker 3 I'm going to jump in quick because there's some money stuff that Dave's going to get to, but I want to tell you, one of the strategies here you've got to be thinking about quickly is raising your income.

Speaker 3 How do you take the skill set that you have? You're at a big-time healthcare company, so you're in the building.

Speaker 1 How can you move up within the building?

Speaker 3 What skill sets can you add without going to college?

Speaker 3 What other types of work can you do to where we can get that income up by a minimum of, I want to say, 25 to 50 percent as your goal? You need more income, you just don't have much to work with.

Speaker 1 You're making $15 an hour. It's not good.
And, you know, the going rate's 20 at target.

Speaker 2 Well, I

Speaker 2 technically make like $19.75 before

Speaker 2 taxes.

Speaker 1 Okay, so the $2,400 is take home.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I live like two hours from Dallas, so it's like pretty good for here.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Where's your family, huh?

Speaker 2 My dad lives in a motel about an hour away, and my mom lives in Missouri, and she lives off the government, so she's not very.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Are you plugged into a church there in your community?

Speaker 2 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 I want you to go sit down with the pastor in the next three days

Speaker 1 and ask them for some help

Speaker 1 to get you out of there.

Speaker 1 Okay. And that's not to pay off your debt.
I think we need to do two things.

Speaker 1 You may need to move to a more metro area where you can get a better job.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 you can't stay there another two weeks. I want you out of that house.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 No, you stop. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you didn't hear me.

Speaker 1 You just drove right past that and I saw you. I saw your brake lights as you went around the corner.

Speaker 1 Okay. I'm telling you, you've been putting this off and you know the situation that you're in is evil and wrong and you need to leave.
Do you hear me, daughter?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Get out of there now.

Speaker 1 And don't talk to me about, I'm going to trade my safety and my mental health for a freaking car.

Speaker 1 Get in the car and drive to Dallas and get a job. Get in the car and talk to your pastor this week and get some help to get out of this situation because he has stolen your confidence.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're right. Almost like I've done this before, haven't I?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Your dad's in a hotel, your mom's on government, so you got nobody in your corner that's telling you you're a champion.

Speaker 1 And I'm telling you you're a champion, and you deserve better than you're getting.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. You've never seen anybody in your family win, and you're going to be the first one that goes and wins.

Speaker 1 You're going to go do something, okay?

Speaker 1 I want to hear a hero story about you from you six months from today. That you're making $25, $30 an hour.

Speaker 1 You're standing alone with your shoulders square and your chest stuck out with pride, and the debt is gone, and you're getting control of your life, okay?

Speaker 1 Okay. You can't sit in this cesspool anymore.
You're sitting in sewage. Do you smell it?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I smell it from over here.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You don't need this guy to win. You don't need him.
And he's become this weird support system for you that he's abused and manipulated.

Speaker 3 So you got to make a clean break. I'm with Dave.
Clean break.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Go see a pastor in the neighborhood right now and a loving pastor at a good church in your neighborhood will take care of you, honey.

Speaker 1 And they'll get you set up and get you out of there and then help you get the next steps into a better position, making more money.

Speaker 1 I want you working more than 40 hours and I want you making $25, $30 an hour and you can clean up this mess and you can create a sustainable life, stand alone on your own. You are a warrior princess.

Speaker 1 And it's time you act like it. It's time you go be the champion God designed you to be right now.

Speaker 1 And this has got to change, kid. And it's not going to change until you change it.
And it's not going to change until you believe what I'm telling you is to be true, that you are worth

Speaker 1 being treated well.

Speaker 1 You're worth it. And so you need to go get yourself in a position where everyone that looks at you says, this woman demands that I treat her well.

Speaker 1 She's a warrior princess and she won't tolerate anything else.

Speaker 1 And that's who you're becoming as I speak right now. That's who you're becoming.
And you've got to go do that. And you've got to go do it now.
You hang on.

Speaker 1 Christian will pick up and we'll find out the little town that you're in and see if we've got some connections there with some local pastors, and we'll help you get connected with one of them and get some people in your corner that aren't

Speaker 1 the kind that you currently have in your corner.

Speaker 1 You need a different crew, kiddo.

Speaker 1 Wow, what a mess.

Speaker 1 Open phones here at 888-825-5225. Ken,

Speaker 1 it is hokey as it can be, but this idea of what you believe

Speaker 1 matters more

Speaker 1 than the actual reality. Yeah.
Because you end up creating your reality with what you believe. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And if you believe that you're not worthy, then all of a sudden you're not worthy. When you start to believe you're worthy, then you become worthy.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, thoughts are very powerful, and our brain goes and finds evidence to give truth to these thoughts. So changing your mind is a huge part of changing your life.

Speaker 3 You You hate to see this out of destruction. Her parents and that poor girl, she's got to believe that she's worth it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, amen.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

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Speaker 1 our question of the day is brought to you by why refi our defaulted private student loan payments dragging you down why refi could help save you thousands of dollars visit YReFi.com slash Ramsey to see how they can help.

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Speaker 3 Today's question comes from Daniel in Oklahoma. My church is very big on encouraging its members regarding tithing.

Speaker 3 Our church leadership recently said, Do not focus on investment for retirement, but focus on investment given to church and the word of God.

Speaker 3 Retirement investment can go up and down, but investment in your church and God's word will always prosper. Should we stop investing in order to fund our local church?

Speaker 1 Wow. Well,

Speaker 1 if

Speaker 1 all caps, if

Speaker 3 a leader of the church said this to an individual, to you, or corporately from the platform, if they said this,

Speaker 3 this is not biblical, Dave. And so the answer would be a resounding all caps no

Speaker 3 from us.

Speaker 1 It would be a resounding change churches.

Speaker 3 Yeah, this is

Speaker 3 a little bit of a purpose.

Speaker 1 Let's walk through what portion of this is accurate. And I don't know if you've twisted this or not, Daniel, or you heard it through a different lens of some kind.

Speaker 1 So I'm not positive what church leadership has said, other than what you told us. Okay.
So we have to go on what you told us because it's the only information we have. Now, number one, the tithe

Speaker 1 is not in place of retirement. The tithe is a tenth of your income.
The word, when you look it up in the Hebrew or in the Greek, Jesus used the word tithe twice.

Speaker 1 When you look it up in, it literally means tenth.

Speaker 1 It means 10%.

Speaker 1 And evangelical Christians have taught for over a thousand years that we believe that a tithe, a tenth of our income, goes to our local church to support the work of God.

Speaker 1 So if you're attending a church, you're an evangelical Christian, that's a standard teaching in a Baptist church, in a, you know, any kind of normal Protestant church out there, that a tenth of your income,

Speaker 1 standard evangelical belief and teaching, I've taught it for 30 years, and I tithe a tenth of my income to my local church.

Speaker 1 That's what I believe. I believe that to be biblically correct.
Above that 10%

Speaker 1 is not more tithe,

Speaker 1 because by definition, you can't be... you can't be more, you can't say, I'm going to tithe more than 10%, because the word means 10%.

Speaker 1 So anything above that is called an offering to support the kingdom of God or to support the community work that the church is doing, which is good work usually.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. And you do want to

Speaker 1 be doing

Speaker 1 a portion, if not a good portion, of your generosity in your budget

Speaker 1 to things that are eternity-oriented, where moth and rust don't destroy, which this person said. Retirement investment can go up and down, but investment into the kingdom of God.

Speaker 1 They said church and God's word. You're not actually giving God's word money.
You're following God's Word when you give money into God's kingdom. God's word is the scriptures.

Speaker 1 You don't give the Bible money.

Speaker 1 That's not, it's incorrectly stated. So that's why I'm kind of thinking, Daniel, you've misinterpreted this or heard some of it wrong.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I hate to accuse your pastor of straight-up craziness, but this, the way you presented this, It sounds like crazy. Okay,

Speaker 1 so, yes, I tithe, and yes, you should put money where moth and rust don't destroy. You should put money towards things that matter in eternity, not things that matter short-term.

Speaker 1 And retirement compared to eternity is short-term.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the Bible says you should save

Speaker 1 for your needs.

Speaker 1 In the house of the wise

Speaker 1 are stores of choice food and oil.

Speaker 1 The diligent

Speaker 1 prosper.

Speaker 1 These are actual scriptures from the Bible that I just quoted.

Speaker 1 And so wise people save money for a rainy day. They save money for purchases.
And they save money in our society. to retire with dignity so they don't have someone else having to take care of them.

Speaker 1 They don't become a charity case of the government or a charity case of their church because they took care of themselves. They were wise.
They were diligent and they prospered.

Speaker 1 And in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil. So the Bible very clearly teaches to tithe,

Speaker 1 to invest money into God's kingdom where moth and rust does not destroy. And the Bible

Speaker 1 teaches to save and invest.

Speaker 1 God, it is the Lord your God, it says in Deuteronomy, that gives you the power to build wealth.

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 1 How is that consistent with give it all to the church and don't save any for retirement? It's not consistent. That's as you said in the opening part on this, not biblical.
Okay?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 this sounds like a money grab. the way you presented it, but that could be that it's how it felt to you and you changed the words around to match your feeling.

Speaker 1 I don't know what was really said by church leadership here. I know what you say they said.
And again, I have to go on that because I don't.

Speaker 1 But I don't know many churches that would say this. I agree with you.
And we work with tens of thousands of churches across America, and almost none of them say something like this.

Speaker 1 If someone's actually saying this, it's probably some kind of sick, toxic little small church. There's something going on that's wrong.
If they're actually saying this, give us all the money.

Speaker 1 Don't save anything for retirement and God will take care of you. That is not what the Bible says.

Speaker 1 It doesn't say that.

Speaker 1 And so,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 we're not going there. But

Speaker 1 do I believe in tithing? Yes.

Speaker 1 Do I believe in giving to eternity? Yes. Do I believe giving to eternity is more important than saving for retirement? Yes.

Speaker 1 But it's also important that you do both according to God's love letter to me, which is called the Bible. My heavenly Father,

Speaker 1 which if we being evil, know how to give our kids good gifts, how much more so our Father in heaven.

Speaker 1 Our Father says that loves us, that the diligent prosper and that in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil. Wise people save money.
Diligent people prosper.

Speaker 1 It's the Lord your God that gives you the power to build wealth. This is all from his mouth.

Speaker 1 Not from your preacher's mouth.

Speaker 1 And so that's what you can measure this stuff against, is figure out: okay, to what extent is church leadership out of line with what the scripture says?

Speaker 1 And if they're too far out of line and it seems to be self-serving, that's a disqualifier as a place to go. That's right.
You need to leave. That's right.
Full stop.

Speaker 1 That, you know, you don't hang out in a place that's got, you know, they're trying to milk the cows every Sunday. That's manipulation.
Trying to shear the sheep every Sunday. That's right.

Speaker 3 It's evil.

Speaker 1 That's just nuts. So, but is it wise? And do I? I wish more pastors would do a better job of teaching the importance of giving

Speaker 1 versus consumption.

Speaker 1 Because it's better for you. If you're listening to me, you will have a better life if you consume less as an American.
And we consume massive amounts in this country.

Speaker 1 We spend more on our dogs and cats. Than most people in other countries spend raising their children.

Speaker 3 And now you've gone and stepped in it. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 I did, literally. And so,

Speaker 3 no pun intended there.

Speaker 1 And I've got a dog that I like more than most humans, but that doesn't matter. I mean,

Speaker 1 we consume. And I'd love for us all to talk about consuming a little less and being a lot more generous.

Speaker 1 It was just a couple of percentage points.

Speaker 1 You could shake this entire country up in ways that would blow your freaking mind if we said, okay, I'm going to cut back on pet and Christmas and Halloween by 5%.

Speaker 1 You can fund entire children's hospitals for two years

Speaker 1 with that amount of money. It's hundreds of millions of dollars.

Speaker 1 Would I love preachers to talk more about that and less about, and more about giving into the kingdom of God and the work in the community and charitable work? Yes.

Speaker 1 But I don't want you doing it this way.

Speaker 1 If this guy's really doing this, I'm going to call him out and say, no, honey, you're not following the word of God. And I'll challenge you on that.
And I actually know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 and you don't want to get an argument with me on this. It's the only thing I've studied for the last 40 years.
I actually know what I'm doing. This is the Ramsey Shop.

Speaker 1 Hey, guys, good news. Pre-sale is on now for my new book, Build a Business You Love.
If you're a business owner, you know running a business is hard.

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Speaker 1 ken coleman ramsey personalities my co-host today open phones at triple eight eight two five five two two five anthony's in portland oregon hey anthony welcome to the ramsey show

Speaker 2 Mr. Dave, hey, thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 Well, I have a question. I am currently on a plan right now to pay off my house in the next 20 months.

Speaker 2 Every penny that we've saved, we've dumped into this house. We've made extra payments.
And we are currently looking at kind of the end of our mortgage, which is so satisfying.

Speaker 1 Wonderful.

Speaker 2 It is. My question, though, is my company offers a 403B and a 457,

Speaker 2 and I'd like to start maxing those out instead of my house payment.

Speaker 2 But someone told me that, you know, when I'm ready to retire 15 or 20 years from now, I'm going to get hit with so many, this big balloon

Speaker 2 required minimum distribution

Speaker 2 payment that it's not worth investing in just those accounts. I should look at something in something different.
I'm just wondering what your advice would be on that.

Speaker 1 How old are you?

Speaker 2 I'm 49.

Speaker 1 What do you make?

Speaker 2 I make about 120. My wife makes about 250.

Speaker 1 Okay. And you have only 403Bs and 457s.
No 401ks available.

Speaker 2 My wife does. Yeah,

Speaker 2 we have two Roths. We each have our own.
We've got probably 70,000 in our Roth.

Speaker 2 I currently have about 80,000 in my 403B.

Speaker 1 Does your 403B have a Roth option?

Speaker 2 It does not.

Speaker 1 Does her 401k have a Roth option?

Speaker 2 It does not.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 1 No. Because 80% of the 401ks now offer Roth.
Hers doesn't.

Speaker 1 Now that I know it, we haven't double-checked that, but I double-check it because I think he probably does. All right.
So

Speaker 1 number one is we want to do Roth if we can because it solves this problem. Roth IRAs, Roth 401ks, Roth 403Bs are not subject to RMD.

Speaker 1 RMD only applies to traditional. Now, RMD stands for required minimum distributions that have to begin at 73 years old.

Speaker 1 So what it amounts to is when you put money in a traditional 403B, you do not pay taxes on the money you put in and you do not pay taxes on the growth until you withdraw it.

Speaker 1 If you have not withdrawn it prior to 73, they require you to begin taking withdrawals, a required minimum distribution, because they want their tax money.

Speaker 1 If it's in a Roth, it's tax-free and there is no required minimum distributions.

Speaker 2 Okay. And I'm nervous about getting hit with this.
If we stay with a 457 or 403b, well, a 401b.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing. The 457 is a deferred comp.
It works differently. But 403b, when you retire, you could roll it to a Roth IRA and pay your taxes then if you want to.

Speaker 2 Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 And then, but here's the required minimum distributions are not huge.

Speaker 1 It's a table. There's a little factor, a little table of factors.
And when you turn 73, it it gives you your life expectancy. And you pull

Speaker 1 that factor off the table and you multiply it. And you got a million dollars in there.
You're not cashing out 300,000 at 73 years old.

Speaker 1 It's a small amount.

Speaker 1 But they begin making you take the thing down to where they get their tax money before you're supposed to die according to this table. That's what it amounts to.
So it's not that punitive.

Speaker 1 It's not the end of the world. But the way to avoid it is start moving stuff to Roth and having more and more and more in Roth and less and less and less in traditional.

Speaker 1 So, whoever told you to not invest because of RMDs does not know what they're talking about. You should invest even if you have RMDs.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 because they're not that punitive. I mean,

Speaker 1 it's not going to destroy your nest egg. It's just you're going to have to pull out some every year and pay taxes on what you pull out.
That's all it is.

Speaker 2 And do I do that after I retire?

Speaker 1 At 73 years old, you're required to do required minimum distributions or mds

Speaker 1 and it's really i mean if you if you want to learn it it you can understand it in about 10 minutes if you just google it and look at it or if you sit down with your financial advisor they can walk you through it's really not that much to it it's not that big a deal um and it's not a reason to not do investing uh it is a reason to do roth if you can

Speaker 1 the more roth you have the less you have to deal with that and by the way ken one other benefit I'm now starting to understand at 64, and I hadn't really thought of it before, but it turns out it was genius accidentally,

Speaker 1 was that

Speaker 1 when you die and you leave an inherited IRA to your family, leave a million dollars in an IRA or in a 0401k, inherited, becomes an inherited IRA.

Speaker 1 The Secure Act under Biden requires now that inherited IRAs are

Speaker 1 distributed over a period of 10 years. So if I leave a million dollars to my kids, they have to, in a traditional IRA or 401k,

Speaker 1 they have to take out $100,000 a year for 10 years, and they have to pay taxes on it as they take it out. If I leave them a Roth,

Speaker 1 it's tax-free. It's not subject to that.

Speaker 1 It does not have to be unpacked. It can sit there and continue to grow tax-free.

Speaker 1 Or if they do cash it in, there's zero taxes on it because it's tax-free.

Speaker 1 So accidentally moving everything into Roth not only avoids RMD, but it also is a wonderful estate thing for the kiddos and the grandkids. They get this money and it's all tax-free.

Speaker 1 They don't have a tax burden coming with their inheritance through a retirement plan. So, you know, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth is what the moral of this story is.
It's the way to go.

Speaker 1 So anything you can put over there, your personal Roth, if she's got a 403b or 401k that's a Roth, talk to your plan administrator on the 403B. They may have instituted a Roth option.

Speaker 1 You don't know about. You can check on it and start just chunking all your money into Roth for those two reasons, if nothing else.
Not to mention the fact that there's no taxes on it. It's wonderful.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 3 Oh, it's music to my ears. I love hearing no taxes.

Speaker 1 Uncle Sam doesn't get his bite of my cookie jar.

Speaker 3 And that irritates you. I love that you laid that out for me because I didn't know that either, but that's why they're forcing that is so that they can get taxes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they want their money.

Speaker 3 They want our money.

Speaker 1 Pay me now, pay me later. Pay me off.
It's not their money. Then pay me again when you die.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 maybe not so much anymore. But yeah,

Speaker 1 we'll see. But yeah, wow.
Pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 Pretty crazy. Awesome.
Open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in.
And guys, here's a fun thing.

Speaker 1 You can do this if you're sitting there and the guy's 50, he says 49. Yeah, 49 or something.

Speaker 1 And I think he said he had $100,000,000 saved, right?

Speaker 3 His wife had $300,000 and he had about $120,000 or yeah, about $100,000 in his shape. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 So let's say they got a half million dollars. Yeah.
Pretty close. Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're $49. If it's invested in good mutual funds, you guys can remember this formula, okay?

Speaker 1 If you're invested in good mutual funds and it's making 10% or a little more on average, which it should be because the market's average more than that.

Speaker 1 If you're making 10% or a little more, that lump sum, if you don't add anything to it, will double every seven years.

Speaker 1 So they're 49.

Speaker 1 At 56, they got a million.

Speaker 1 At

Speaker 1 63, help me there. There you go.
They got 2 million.

Speaker 1 At 70, they got 4 million. So this question of RMDs or inherited IRAs, it starts to be, you know, 8 million bucks

Speaker 1 that we're dealing with here if they don't add anything to it and they live up into their 80s.

Speaker 1 And they keep investing it in good growth stock mutual funds that have a market-based return.

Speaker 1 That's where they're going to be. And so those of you that, you know, you can kind of take that lump sum, doubles every seven years, plus what you add to it.

Speaker 1 Wow. You can get there.
In other words, it's not too late. You know, Dave, am I too old to save money? Not if you're still sucking wind.
You just keep at it, baby.

Speaker 1 You're never too old until you can't suck wind anymore, and then it's over.

Speaker 3 It's good.

Speaker 1 Keep at it. Keep at it.
Keep at it. Keep at it.
There's something to do.

Speaker 1 Listen, if you've got some money, there's always an opportunity to be generous. And if you're broke, there's not an opportunity to be generous.

Speaker 1 Keep that in mind. Broke people can feed hungry people.
I mean, rich people can feed hungry hungry people. Broke people can't.
That's right. So there you go.
Let's think about this.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.