Normal Is Broke and in Debt. Do You Want To Be Normal?

Welcome to the Ramsey Show, where we help you win in your life, specifically with your money, with your work, and in your relationships.

Alongside George Campbell, I'm Ken Coleman.

Thrilled to be with you guys today.

888-825-5225 is the number to jump in.

888-825-5225.

All right, let's start it off with Amy in Minneapolis.

Amy, how can we help?

Well, I am turning 61 in two weeks. All right.
That sounds exciting. Early birthday.
And I have been good with my money all along, but I have failed to have a retirement fund. And I'm wondering at this point what I can do so that I can retire maybe at 67.
All right. Okay, so we're working with six years to retire, and you have zero? George is going to walk you through this, but just a couple quick questions.
You have zero, or you have very little? What's the real, real here on your team? I have no retirement fund, but I have cash, and I have no real debt. The only debt I have is about $9,000 that I took out a 0% interest loan and did some updates on my house.
Okay. Sure sounds like real debt to me.
Well, yeah, but other than that, I have no debt. What kind of cash do you have? About $200,000.
And what's that sitting in? A couple bank accounts. Okay.
Just in checking accounts or normal savings accounts? Are they making 0%? No, they're making a little bit. There's a couple of them in savings and then some of it's just cash.
Okay. So we can get that money invested working for you at least.
What is your income? I do childcare about, it varies every year, but around like 57,,000. $57,000, okay.
And do you have any pension or anything like that, any other retirement income we should be aware of? Nope. Okay.
I have a life insurance, a small life insurance policy that's all I have. Okay.
And are you living alone? Yes. All right.
Right now. My 19-year-old is away at college, but I mean, he'll be here when he's not at college.
Okay. And are you a homeowner? I own my home, yes.
It's paid for? No mortgage? It's been paid for for, yep, no mortgage. Good.
What's that worth? I'm thinking around $280,000. Okay.
And what are your monthly expenses? Have you added this up to see, here's my monthly budget, here's what I need to live? My monthly expenses are about $1675,000. Okay, great.
So here's some good news. You don't need a lot to survive.
Now, I don't know what your retirement plans are. I don't know if you had big dreams.
We might need to change that picture based on the reality of where we're at. Right.
But based on my math, you're going to need, you know, and this is not including health care if there's any other needs you have, but you're talking about 20 grand a year is what you're going to be spending. Okay.
So here's the good news. If you put the majority of your savings into the stock market, into a good growth stock mutual fund or an index fund, you would see on average over, you know, the next 20, 30 years in your retirement, 10 to 12% return, which means you put 200 in on average, again, not every year, you're going to see $20,000, another $20,000.
And so that gives me some hope that you're not going to be out on the street. But we're also not going to be eating out and going on vacations.
This is going to be a bare bones retirement. Okay.
Now, if you could invest a big portion of your income, now that you have a paid for house, how much could you invest every month from your income? Could you do, let's say, $2,000? Every month? Yes. Probably not.
I could probably do a posant. Well, you told me your expenses are about $1,600.
You're taking home probably close to $4,000, right? Yeah, it just depends on the time of the year. Then in the summer, I make a lot more because I have way more children.
Well, Ken can help you fill in the gaps of income, but if you have stable income, you could invest $2,000 every single month from age 61 to 67. You'd likely have around $200,000 sitting in that investment account.

Okay. So that is one option on top of the savings you have putting that into the market.
I also would recommend you sit down with a financial advisor and actually crunch these numbers and they'll walk you through to make sure you're understanding where you're putting this money. I don't want you to do it because George said or Ken said.
I want you to do it because Amy understands. I that's kind of why I haven't done.
I just don't understand any of it. And I've always been afraid of it.
And I've watched too much American Greed. So.
Well, here's I go. I keep thinking of this line for you.
The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The best set next time is today.
And so I know you're 60 and you feel behind. There's probably some guilt that you could have done more.
You should have done more. You should have been investing.

But I'm telling you, it's not too late to have some dignity in retirement, but it starts today.

We can't have an excuse any longer of, well, I just don't know what I'm doing. Ignorance was

bliss until this call. Okay.
Yep. I get it.
Now let's talk about that seasonal income gap.

What are you doing in the wintertime? What changes that you don't have enough work? I do child care, and so during the summer I get a full house. I have all the kids from school, school-aged children, so I have 12 kids all summer long.
And then during the winter, kids go out to school and I tend to have less. And this year I chose to have a few less because I took my first grandbaby.
I'm watching her. And with a baby, it's just a lot more work.
And so I've had less children during the years. Are you getting paid to watch the baby? Or is this just grandma stuff? Partially.
Okay. So what would be...
Not a lot. So let's say, just for sake of numbers, okay, let's say that there wasn't a drop-off between the summer and the rest of the year.
How much more additional money would you make over and above the $57,000?? What do you think that that number would be if you just had the same amount of kids all year round? Probably a good another $20,000, $30,000. I don't know.
Yeah. So that's the thing I want you to think about.
George has done a great job laying out, okay, what you need to do. And here's the deal.
That $200,000 is something to build on, plus your existing money, as you're putting in $1,000 a month. But I want to challenge you to just believe what you just said.
Let's say, let's round down. Let's say you did something to go, okay, I'm going to be more aggressive and talking about it.
There are parents everywhere around you who would much rather have their child with you. It's probably even more affordable than what they're looking at in the marketplace.
There's no shortage of children who need to be watched. So with a little bit of aggression, more intentionality, letting people know, let's say you were able to make an additional $20,000 a year over the next six years.
Okay. That's a lot of money, George, coming back to your calculator.
She can now put to maybe three grand a month away and all of a sudden changes your retirement. It changes it.
And you might need to work until 70. That's right.
You get to retire when the numbers say you do, not when you just decide. And so jump on a RamseySolutions.com, get in touch with a smart investor pro.
They can walk you through the investing portion. And this is going to take

work. And you got to remember, inflation is going to be, that's going to be kicking your retirement

in the pants. So you got to get on top of this thing and start investing instead of just saving.

But George and I are both, we really believe Amy, you can do this. I think this is extra income.

And I do think this is tightening under the expenses as well. And you can get there.
All right, quick break. We'll be right back.
This is The Ramsey Show. I hate to admit this, but I don't always eat right.
I know I need to eat more fruits and veggies, but sometimes I just have to pound some chips because they taste so good. That's why I love my Field of Greens.
It helps me eat healthy

when I don't have much time. And each fruit and vegetable in Field of Greens was doctor-selected

for a specific health benefit. Heart, lungs, kidney, metabolism, even healthy weight.
And folks,

I ain't getting any younger. It's super easy to mix with water.
And here is the great part of it.

I thought it might taste like grass, but it tastes great. And only Field of Greens makes this promise

Thank you. And here is the great part of it.
I thought it might taste like grass, but it tastes great.

And only Field of Greens makes this promise. Your doctor will notice your improved health or your money back.
So go to fieldofgreens.com slash Ramsey for 20% off your first order. That's fieldofgreens.com slash Ramsey to save 20% on your first order.
Welcome back, America. Thrilled to have you with us alongside the incomparable and the very, very sharp-dressed man, George Camel.
I'm Ken Coleman. So kind.
888-825-5225 is the phone number. Taking your money questions and your income questions.
So George is our money resident. I might pipe in.
I've been known to do it. You've got a lot of great thoughts.
But I'm more in the win with the income, right? Are we winning at work so that we have the opportunity to make more money? So if you're feeling stuck professionally, we're going to equate that to our financial situation. So I'm here to help on that as well.
Ken will help you afford eggs. That's right.
That's the goal today. Have you noticed? Do you eat a lot of eggs? I went out and bought eggs last night.
All right. And I was shocked.
I told the cashier, I said, I thought egg prices were supposed to be jacked up. This is a reasonable price.
I even opted for the pasture raised. Did you? I really went all out.
You went high end. $4.99.
Very reasonable. The cost of eggs are actually moving up.
So we'll see what happens. But they're really good for you.
Let's go to Jason in Houston, Texas. Jason, how can we help today? Hey, guys.
How are you? We're having fun. What's going on? Yeah, so I want to try to be succinct and not really reveal too much, but as much as I can.
What do we need to know here?

Do we need to be careful in how we ask follow-up questions? I'm beginning to think your real name isn't Jason. Oh, maybe it's not.
Anything you need to ask. Okay.
Basically, me and my fiancé are getting married. We're just doing a one-on-one ceremony, me and her, in about a month.
and we had decided to fund this ourselves. And our budget was around $10,000 to $12,000.
In the initial discussions, I was going to bring X amount of money. She was going to bring a significant portion.
So I was going to bring around $2,500. She was going to cover the rest.
Um, when we had this discussion, when we planned this, I had

decided, um,

our So I was going to bring around $2,500. She was going to cover the rest.
When we had this discussion, when we planned this, I had decided, or excuse me, I had budgeted based on projected income for the month of January and how much margin I would have on my budget. That did not come to fruition, and it's created a strain because I'm not able to contribute the portion that I thought I would be able to.
I'm in a very tight budget right now. I will follow that up with I am bringing debt into this marriage.
From the second we even discussed marriage, she's had a full look into my finances. She sees what I spend.
There's nothing hidden. And we have agreed that when we combine our finances, when we get married, that we're going to do the marriage we plan to bring the debt, to protect the debt that I'm bringing into the marriage.
So a couple of things, there is a lot of shame and guilt on my end too. And on her end, I think there might be some not necessarily resentment building, but I don't want that to happen.
And yesterday, there was kind of some expression of that. Well, let me ask you a quick question.
She's fully aware of your finances, which means she's probably very fully aware of your work and how you get paid. And that sounds like you had no control over this income.
So she's disappointed, Yes, but does she understand the circumstances by which the money hasn't come in like you thought it would? Yes, yes, and that's kind of the question. All right, second question.
Second question. I thought, and I don't know if, George, you heard this, so I'm coming to you, Jason.
I thought you started off the call by saying we're having a one-on-one wedding. Yes, sir.
We're well open. So why is it $12,000? Yeah, I don't understand.
This was kind of the dream that she had and what we had thought we could budget for. And so there's been deposits placed, airline tickets placed, thin money already spent.
That would be really hard to sort of bring up. Okay, so hold on a second.
Hold on. So she had a vision for a wedding, and now we can't afford it, so now we're opting for the one-on-one at the courthouse? Well, no.
It's still affordable, just the portion that I was supposed to afford. I just don't understand, George, why we're spending $12,000.
Let's say you can't give this $2,500. You can't give a dime.
What changes about this wedding a month from now? What can't we do that we said we were going to do? Well, that's exactly my question. We can do it.
And per our conversation last night, the sort of thought is just get it done. But my question is more relational.
I don't want there to be any harbored resentment or doubt from her because I was not able to uphold my end of the bargain. Here's the third question.
Is there a pattern of you making a promise, telling her something, and then it not coming to fruition? Are you letting her down? Is this the first time this has happened? As far as I know, absolutely not, no. And 100% transparency, no.
Have you told her about this yet? Just be honest with her and say, hey, listen,

I was expecting this income.

Oh, yeah, they talked about that.

But she expressed some disappointment.

She was upset about it.

There's a lot of emotion already with planning a wedding and doing this,

even if it's just one-on-one.

It's a big life change.

And I think this just probably triggered something inside of her going,

this man, is he going to be able to provide? Is he going to be able to be the partner and leader that I need him to be? So it's probably causing some bigger questions in her mind, and I think that's worth a second conversation with her. Okay, and it's a shame that I'm feeling as well, and I guess I'm just curious about how to best approach that.
Well, so, okay. I think that I can do between now and then.
Okay. So we can't really answer that until we understand what happened.
What is the nature of your job? Or could you share with us briefly the circumstances that led to you not getting paid what you, uh, projected that you might, what happened? Very, yeah, very easily. Um happened? Very easily.
I do two things. I'm a field inspector and I sell real estate.
And my field inspection job is my main source of income. I make basically just enough to pay my bills to get by with that.
And then real estate, I switch brokerages back to a brokerage that I have been affiliated with before. So when I made this change, we discussed it.
I said, hey, you know, I can either focus my attention at this real estate and see the benefits from that three to six months from now. I've done that before.
I know what it looks like. Or I can, in the immediate, in the next three months, go get a job doing whatever on the side to stack cash for this elopement.
And we decided that the first option was how I would proceed. There was about a $2,000 job through this field inspection job that I do that I was anticipating and told would happen in January.
And that money was earmarked for the elopement. And that work never came to fruition through the company that I'm working with.
Okay. So you have another month to go? Is this wedding in March? Yes, sir.
Okay. So you can go do a side gig, you know, one of these, you know, kind of a instacart uber eats whatever it is

you can go sign up for one of those and go make 500 bucks a week until the wedding okay and that that is my thought okay do whatever it takes i think that'll prove to her that you're serious about yeah i i get it george that's a great suggestion jason honestly bro you you've got some self-belief issues.

Okay.

So that's going to need to be dealt with,

number one. But the best way to kind of deal with this, you're down in the dumps.
Dude, you sound like what maybe a balloon that's lost all its air would sound like if they were talking. That's what you sound like.
And I'm not making fun of you. I'm saying that's what it sounds like.
You sound so deflated. But George is right.
Bro, you can make $2,500 between now and that wedding day. and I'm not making fun of you I'm saying that's what it sounds like you sound so deflated but George is right bro you can make $2,500 between now and that wedding day and I would start doing it okay now sell something if you can't sell something and come up with $300 go sell it for somebody else good all your friends I mean I'm telling you bro like this is your chance to feel good about yourself.
I understand why you're deflated,

but man, this is an opportunity for you to go, wait a second. I can earn $2,500 between now and wedding day, and I'm going to absolutely die trying.
And I'm going to do it. I'm going to find all the ways to do it.
And that's all I'm doing. I'm waking up going, you need a poster board in your bedroom on your mirror looking at some type of a thermometer that people do.
Like $2,500 or bust. If there's 35 days for the wedding, say, I'm going to make $100 every day no matter what.
Come hell or high water. Yeah.
So, I mean, let's go. And then here's the deal.
And then enter into this marriage all in with your wife-to uh on the baby steps how can we let's give them a wedding gift george what would what should we do i love it i think financial peace university for the two of you would be great along with breaking free from broke for you specifically jason read the margin is breathing room chapter i've got 10 ways to make more 10 ways to spend less if you do both of those things you're going to find that margin up. And I want you to have that next conversation, not with a mopey attitude, but with optimism, with an excitement, with an enthusiasm that she goes, oh my gosh, this is the new Jason.
That's right. And tell her, I'm going to come up with the $2,500, babe.
Don't worry about it. I may not see much of you, but it's going to be a great wedding.
This is The Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
All right, you've heard me say this a thousand times, and I'm going to keep saying it. You're worth being well, and I believe therapy can help.
Right now, BetterHelp is offering 90% off your first week of therapy, now through March 31st. So if you've been on the fence, this is your chance to try therapy for a fraction of the cost.
Because let's be honest, we all spend money on things we hope will make us feel better, like new clothes, organic groceries, gym memberships. But when it comes to actually digging in and getting real with our mental and emotional well-being, we hesitate.
We pause. And I know actually going to therapy can seem like a huge first step,

but please hear me.

Your mental and emotional health are just as important as your physical health.

BetterHelp makes therapy more accessible than you think because it's online, so you can talk with your therapist when it works for your schedule.

You just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist,

and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost.

Your well-being is worth it, and this offer makes it easier than ever to start.

90% off your first week of therapy now through March 31st, 2025.

Visit BetterHelp.com slash Deloney to get started.

That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Along alongside George Camel.
I'm Ken Coleman. Phone number is 888-825-5225.
888-825-5225. Hey, it's time for our question of the day brought to you by our good friends at Y-Refi.
Now, you know we don't recommend refinancing on everything, but for distressed private student loans, there's Y-Refi.

We trust Y-Refi because they help you with a low fixed interest rate that you couldn't get anywhere else to help you stick to your budget and get out of debt.

Learn more at YRefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey.
It may not be available in all states.

Today's question comes from Felix in North Dakota.

Bitcoin has been going through the roof recently, and it looks like it's becoming more and more of a stable investment. Do you now

recommend it as an investment or do you still believe it's too dangerous of an investment

and that people should steer clear of it? Oh, good question. I'm actually interested to see

what you say about it. To clear the air on Bitcoin because people really want to know my opinion,

said no one. Here's the deal.
I've never been anti-bitcoin uh we took a call yesterday ken young man had every single one of his dollars in bitcoin had nothing in savings everything in bitcoin and he'd been doing really well and he asked us well what's wrong with this and i'm going you've been alive for four days so yeah if you just think this is how it's always going to be, then sure. But we've seen things.
We've seen Bitcoin drop 50% in value in 2022. It's 24-7.
There's a lot of fraud and scams around the crypto world right now. It's been on a wild trend up lately.
And so you're going, well, why invest in the stock market to get a measly 10% when I could get a thousand percent? And so what really comes down to is what I call the three stooges of wealth, which trips people up, especially young people. It's fear, greed, and pride.
So it's the, I'm so scared. There's the FOMO of I got to get in this now or else I'm going to be broke forever.
There's the pride of, well, I know better. There's a little bit of arrogance there.
And then there's the greed of just like, I'm not going to settle for 12% and a slow way to wealth when I can make it a lot faster. And so with Bitcoin, it's like investing in any single stock that's been on a wild ride.
You know, you see Nvidia going up and then DeepSeek from China came out and Nvidia takes it. And there's all this just gyration and fear in the market of what anything is going to do.
And it's why I recommend diversifying. So it really comes down to diversifying versus Bitcoin equals bad.
And it's more that you got all your eggs in one basket. That's too much risk for one person to handle.
And so if you want to invest in Bitcoin, I can't say invest. If you want to speculate in Bitcoin, put some money in that after you've already invested 15% of your income into retirement, into tax advantage, retirement plans, proven mutual funds and index funds, be my guest and use your fund money to do that.
Knowing this is money you could burn on the table, but putting all the chips in on Bitcoin, I'm telling you, I think history is going to show that was a very risky move. Now there's Bitcoin billionaires out there who are going, ha ha, and they're laughing from their private islands right now.
That could be the case. Well, I think it's here.
I think there's no question that cryptocurrency is here to stay. So as a technology, the blockchain, it's here.
Yeah. And I would say Bitcoin is here.
I'm not saying Bitcoin can't fall. I'm not saying I disagree with anything you said.
In fact, I agree with everything. I would say to somebody, yeah, you want to invest in Bitcoin? I would treat it just like we tell people to go sit down with a smart investor pro and learn about the strategies so that you understand what you're doing.
But I agree with you that it should be a part of a diversified strategy, not all eggs in that basket. I agree with that.
And that's just smart investing strategy. But I will say this, my position on crypto and Bitcoin early on was, it's risky right now, but there will come a day, and I still hold this.
And I think Trump, by the way, is already rattling his saber on this. Well, he's already made a bajillion dollars doing it.
He has. So, of course, he's a fan.
I know. But I'm saying you're going to see this become regulated just like banking, just like the stocks.
And I think when it becomes regulated, because it will on some level. Some people would take issue with me on that, and I'm okay with that.
I am making a prediction here. But I believe that once it's it's regulated i believe it becomes far more stable i'm not a fan of regulation as a whole but there is there needs to be it's the wild wild west right now yeah no i'm with you on that i think there will be a mutual fund filled with different cryptocurrencies so diversification is the answer i agree with you i just wanted to add that little two cents there that i don't think you should feel like, oh, it's stupid to invest in it.
No, I think it's just like any other investment. You got to do your homework.
What level of risk? If you sit down with a good professional, so we talk about the smart investor pros that are out there, okay? And we link to them and you can go meet them. You talk with any investment professional.
One of the first things they're going to talk to you about is where are you at, where are you in your finances, and what's your level of risk? And so I would treat any crypto thing as a high-risk thing right now. And the other piece of this we didn't talk about is that Bitcoin isn't based in anything.
When you invest in a mutual fund, it's filled with 90 to 200 stocks of actual companies producing real products and services and real revenue you That's right. You can attribute to that.
And therefore, what is it based on? Well, a lot of hype. A lot of, well, my buddy said, and they're investing, so it must be good.
Well, it is a currency. Exactly.
You're investing in an alternative currency, and that's the bet. It's like gold.
People that invest in gold, well, you're investing in crypto. And the last thing I do is I go, what are actual wealthy people doing with their money? And what I found is most of them aren't saying, oh, dude, you got to get in on crypto.
They might be dabbling in there with a very, very tiny percent of their world. They're not going all in on it.
And so if you want to know how actual wealthy people invest, Dave Ramsey will be unpacking that in a two-night virtual event called Investing Essentials. I'll be joining him.
And here's the deal. We know that if you're following social media, you're going to get investing advice from a 60-second TikTok reel or Instagram reel.
That's dangerous. At this virtual event, over two nights, two hours a night, we're going to walk you through how to maximize your retirement plans, how to choose the right funds, how to get the most out of your money, how to invest with confidence.
Plus, it's the only place you're going to hear Dave unpacking his personal playbook on real estate investing, which is fascinating stuff, something he's never done here on the show. This is brand new information.
You're going to get the clarity you need to invest. Join us March 4th and 5th in the comfort of your home.
It's completely virtual. Tickets start at $199.
Get yours today at ramsysolutions.com slash events, or click the link in the show notes if you're on podcast or YouTube. All right, great.
Let's go to Alicia who's joining us in San Antonio, Texas. Alicia, how can we help? Hey, thanks for having me.
Sure. What's going on? So my husband and I are trying to get out of debt.
Right now we have a $26,000 car loan. We want to get rid of that for an $8,000 2012 minivan.
But we would be rolling over negative equity if we decide to roll over. Can you just not? Why are you trying to go into debt again? Well, that's the thing.
We're trying to get out of this car loan. What's it worth? We owe a negative equity about $4,000 to $6,000.
Okay. So it's worth about $22,000? And my husband? $20,000 or $22,000? Sorry, what was that? The car is worth $20,000 to $22,000 if you sold it today.
If we sold it to CarMax today, $22,000. If we sold it to the dealership, about $18,000.
Well, why not sell it private party and get $25,000? I don't think it would be worth that much. Well, you know, CarMax is buying it at $22,000, and they're going to sell it for $28,000.

They're buying it at a discount from you, and so you're getting screwed on these kind of trade-in deals,

and they're going to try to then sell you on a car you can't afford again.

I'd rather see you sell it private party, clean it up, sell it on Facebook Marketplace for $25,000 or $26,000,

and be as little underwater as possible, if not break even.

The thing about private party, it just doesn't sound safe. And I don't want to screw myself over selling a private party.
It doesn't sound safe. You mean meeting strangers to look at the car? Meet in a public place in daylight.
Bring someone with you. No, no, no.
Not like that. Like, I mean, like, legit.
Like, if I sell it private party, I would have to make sure that... Go to the bank with them.
Yeah, go to the bank. Ask for a cashier's check.
Go to the bank. Have it cashed.
They'll verify the funds are there. This happens all the time.
It's not worth losing $4,000 over. Do you guys have any money in cash to cover the negative equity? Yeah, we have about $3,000.
Okay, that will clear it. You still don't have the 8 for this minivan, so we need to figure out what we're going to do.
That's going to a local credit union to get the difference so that you can get a cheaper car. But I think we still need to figure out how we get an even cheaper car for now until we can upgrade to the $8,000 minivan.
But I would not roll the negative equity. Bad plan.
This is going to keep you where you're at. Thanks for the call, Alicia.
You can do this. I've done this so many times over the last couple of years.
Don't be scared. Buying cars for my teenagers.
Selling. All right.
Quick break. We'll be right back.
He's George Camel. I'm Ken Coleman.
This is The Ramsey Show. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers.
Economic growth or a recession. Business taxes will go up or down.
AI will help us work or it will replace us all. But there's no such thing as a crystal ball.
That's why more than 40,000 businesses have future-proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud enterprise resource planning system. Ramsey Solutions uses NetSuite, and you should too.
Whether your company's earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. With one unified business management suite, there's only one source of truth for the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions.
NetSuite's real-time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next.
And speaking of what's next, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey.
Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Thrilled to have you with us, America.
Alongside George Camel, I'm Ken Coleman. 888-825-5225 is the phone number.
Hey, there's a lot that happens in your mind, in your emotions, and just activities when it comes to buying and selling a house. And that leads to feeling paralyzed, feeling overwhelmed.
And so we created Ramsey's Real Estate Home Base, right? Just kind of a safe place. What's there at the Ramsey Real Estate Home Base? Calculator, start-to-finish guides, how-to articles, a podcast, a book, and even a video course, all with steps that you can take to navigate the buying or selling process.
So if you're ready to take the next step, do it with confidence. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash real estate.
RamseySolutions.com slash real estate. Or you can click the link in the show notes if you're watching, listening on YouTube or podcast.
go to ottawa canada now sue is there sue how can we help oh hello how are you sue hi thank you i'm good thank you for taking the call i'm calling from canada ottawa uh so i have a couple of collections i think it's seven yeah i have seven different collections. Three of mine, four is mine, and three from my husband.
Are you talking about collections? Yep, we are in collections right now. Okay, gotcha.
And the amount is not too much. It's around $14,000.
Okay. Each around $2,000.
and so last month my husband started working full time we are new in Canada we came as a refugee and first three years we didn't speak English so all three years we were just educating ourselves to speak English to get a better life here. We are from Turkey.
Wow. Okay.
Yeah. So first three years, we got an English course from college.
So we have OSOP, like student loan. But it wasn't the best course because it was an academic course, but we didn't even speak English.
It didn't help us. It didn't help you actually get a career? No, it wasn't for a career.
It was just to learn English, but we choose the wrong option, to be honest. Instead of three English courses, we chose to go to college, and we couldn't finish the course because it was a heavy academic English course, and we didn't even speak English.
You couldn't understand it enough? No, nothing. So our community, our Turkish community, gave us bad advice, and they told us we have to get two cars on loan and do Uber during those times.
That's what we did, and everything went even worse. So I sold my car, and my husband finished her loan this month.
Yeah, this was the the last month and during that time we find a free psw course from government we take that course first me and then i start working and then my husband so last three years we were just having one income coming in the home so we just avoid all the debt and this this month, my husband started getting his salary.

So our income is doubled.

I'm earning around $3,500, and he earns around $4,000.

This is the money comes to our account.

This is per month.

That's your take-home pay after taxes get taken out.

Yes.

Wonderful.

So you're making $7,500 take-home every month.

Yes. And our, how do you say outcome? No, income expense.
Our expenses are around $2,500, but also the food, so we can say $3,500. Okay.
So $3,500 a month. And that means you should have $4,000 left over if you're doing a written budget,

which is just a plan for your money where you go income minus expenses, here's every dollar we're going to spend. It looks like it.
This was the first month we got the money, so we decided to start paying everything and fix the five-year mistakes we did it. but when I called the collection agency they told me that I have to pay it in full amount today and the next seller will come next Friday and I have to wait so they told me that I have to call a debt consolidation company no they will don't listen to them that they're lying to your face they're're trying to bully you into paying.
You don't have to do anything.

So I told them that I will pay it in six months, the whole seven collections, but they all want me to pay this month. They keep calling me 10 times a day.
It's killing me right now. So we decided to talk with the recovery agency just to learn what is that.

And they made resettlement all... right now.
So we decided to talk with the debt recovery agency

just to learn what is debt and

they made resettlement all

the debts and they said that now it's

$10,000. They sent us the

paper, thank God we know

English now so we can read it.

And it says that we will

pay back $26,000

back. Yeah, these companies are scummy.

They're scamming you.

Yeah, so we said no. But now, since yesterday, my phone is, like they keep calling me because they got my numbers now.
Don't answer. Every single agency.
And every time I call them, they're trying to pressure you to get so stressed that you'll do anything it takes, even taking your debt consolidation. Sue, don't answer the calls.
You talk to one person in a supervisor role at all these different places and say, we are going to pay you back, and this is when I'm going to do it. And you get it in writing.
Say every Friday I'm going to call you with an update, but don't call me. I will not pick up.
But you will hear from me. You don't have to answer their call.
They are not the law. But they told me that there will be legal in secret.
I don't know that word. Listen, if they want to take you to court over a $2,000 debt, be my guest.
It's going to cost you more in lawyer fees than it will what I owe you. They are threatening you.
So you let them know, hey, I'm trying to pay this off aggressively. Here's my plan.
Here's what I can do and win. Put the ball in your court.
Don't let anyone bully you. Don't let them take advantage of you.
Don't fall for these debt settlement companies. Don't fall for debt consolidation.
This is on you guys to pay off on your own, and you will do that with your newfound income. This is an amazing blessing.
You're going to have over $4,000 a month to throw at this. You're going to be done with all of this within four months.
Think about that. Oh, yeah.
We did a math and it was saying six months. If we can do it for amazing.
George math says four months. You guys are going to live off nothing.
You're going to grocery shop like just enough rice and beans to where you don't need anything else. You're not going to buy clothes.

We're going to really look at every dollar.

We're going to have full accountability with you and your husband.

We're not going to spend anything we don't need to for the next four months.

Can you do that?

We are doing that last five years, so for sure we can do that.

Good.

You guys are warriors. You have been through a lot, and I hate that you're getting taken advantage of after being refugees and

moving to Canada. You guys have had a lot of life change.
It's been really hard and you've been grinding it out, learning a new language, entering this new atmosphere and all the while getting taken advantage of. And we have to also remember, we did this to ourselves.
So there's a personal responsibility of, yeah, we chose to go into debt. We chose to put ourselves in this position.

But you guys are getting out of this.

The biggest problem, one of the biggest problems, we have one debt in collection. It's $75.
Like, I don't even know how we did that. I can't understand.
I mean, it's just $75. We didn't see it.
We didn't know how to use online systems. I, get verification.
Say, hey, I need written verification of all of these debts before I pay a penny. Oh, we did all they send us.
Yeah, they send us. We really have that on one of the credit cards.
We just didn't know how to use online system, and we thought we'd pay it. It was four years ago.
So now what they're telling me is it's not just about money. If I pay all these debts, my credit score will be still the same, so I have to do this loan to get my credit.
No, again, no, Sue. Is that true? No, no.
This is all they're doing is using tactics to try to get as much money out of you as fast as they can. But they have no – they're not going to sue you.
They don't want to do that. This is a tactic.
So you mean – I mean, is there anything, any money that you have that you could pay some of this stuff off today? That'll get them off your back if you just pay something. Not all of it, but something.
George, I mean, I know we got the snowball. I paid two collections yesterday, the minimum ones, the $75 and $660 ones I paid yesterday.
It was a big relief. It was a good time.
Good, and get written confirmation.

Everything, get written confirmation

and don't give them any access to your checking account.

Yeah.

That's the key here.

And once you do that and you put the ball in your court,

you're going to feel a sense of relief and confidence

you're going to get out of this.

But do not let anyone bully you any longer.

We're done with that.

Yeah, and it's really important when you use the right word.

What would you do if you were on a playground right now and somebody started bullying you? Be an adult, knowing what you know. You know what you do? You'd go, knock this, knock this off, knock it off.
What are we doing? This is the dumbest thing I've ever, this is stupid. You're not going to punch me.
Get out of my face. And you've got to do that with these collections, folks.
All right, Sue, we're rooting for you. This is The Ramsey Show.
There's a time in your life and at the baby steps for renting, but you don't want to do it forever. Because when you rent, you're still paying for a mortgage, just somebody else's.
Plus, rent means instability in your budget, because it always goes up, never down. So when you're ready to buy, make sure you work with a mortgage partner you can rely on.
Churchill Mortgage. Churchill is Ramsey-trusted to help you make the move from renting to home ownership wisely.
Churchill understands that when you buy a home the Ramsey way, your mortgage payment will be a consistent, manageable part of your monthly budget. Plus, when your home is paid off, that was your largest expense.
Now it's extra money in your pocket and an asset towards turning you into a Baby Steps millionaire. So get started on the American dream of home ownership today at churchillmortgage.com.
That's churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement.
NMLS ID 1591. NMLS consumeraccess.org.
Equal housing lender. 1749 Mallory Lane, Suite 100.
Brentwood, Tennessee 37027. Welcome to the Ramsey Show America, where we help you win with your money, win in your profession, and win with your relationships.
Phone number to jump in is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.
Thrilled to be alongside my pal, the smartly attired and well-equipped financial guru. He is the one, the only.

That's impressive.

George Camel with a K.

I'm elated to be with you, Ken.

Elated.

Elated?

That's a good word.

Let's see if we can keep that going.

Looks like we're going to Ken in Denver, Colorado.

Oh, there's a lot of Kennergy right now.

Ken, how can we help?

Hey, guys.

Can you guys hear me okay? Yeah. You didn't acknowledge the Kennergy joke at all? Just went right over your head? Not interested? I did.
I guess I'm processing how much Ken is in the room, I guess. But basically, my question is, so right now I feel really stuck in my career.
My wife and I are in the middle of baby steps too. How much do you have left? We've got about 50 grand left.
So we're plugging away. Right now, I feel like looking to change careers to find something that I have a growth plan on.
And my job currently, I feel like I've hit the ceiling without having to move away from where I am. Tell us what you do.
So I work for my state agency. I am an equipment trainer.
Basically, I help new employees obtain their CDO license and help with other heavy equipment. Okay, gotcha.
And what do you make? So right now I make $57 a year. Okay.
All right. Well, let me just tell you, the reason you feel stuck and that you've hit a lid is because you have.
Nothing against state employees. I have been criticized before when I

say state government is kind of a dead end, and it is. It's not because I think it's bad.
It's

because it is, and I used to work for the governor of Virginia. So, sheesh, people, when I say facts,

understand what I'm saying. And Ken, you can agree you're stuck because it is a state agency

and there's only so many rungs on the ladder, correct? Right. All right, great.
So you're stuck.

Thank you. It's because of where you are.
So the question becomes, where do you take all this experience you have up to this point in your career and all the skills you've developed, how do you transfer those to the, let's just say private sector? So you don't have to leave the Denver area or surrounding area and you can go, okay, I can step in and I got not only a chance to make more money, but I've got a ladder of growth. So what does that look like?

If I were to just say to you, Ken, based on your skill and experience to this point, what would be the low-hanging fruit or the obvious choices to at least kick the tires on? I mean, for me, it would involve some type of teaching, whether it's adult teaching, where they're working within a company that needs someone to help train new employees on their processes. Great.
Because that's what I do. And that's one thing I love about my job.
You know, I love what I do. I have a great job, but just, you know.
You just have no room for advancement, and that is a depressing place to be. Right.
The only room for advancement at all would be supervising, and I would not be doing what I got. Exactly.
So you exchange a little bit of extra money for doing something you don't enjoy. So you've already nailed it.
So I love this. So we want to write down, if you and I were in a room with a whiteboard, I would write down training slash instructing.
If we can get a gig where you spend the majority of your day training or instructing, you're going to be a pretty satisfied fellow, right? Yeah. All right.
So we start there. So now we start to look in and around Denver.
We go, okay, anything that's got the word trainer, instructor in it. I mean, this could be across the board, a lot of different industries.
You acknowledge that? Yeah. Well, so I'm not from the Denver area.
That's the closest big town. So I'm, like, from, like, southwest Kansas.
Oh. Yeah.
Okay, take everything I just said and just delete the word Denver. But the point is, you're looking in your area let's say a 30 mile radius, right? Yeah.
Let's look. And so you've got to see what's out there and see what is transferable for you.
And I would tell you that your skill set and your experience is transferable to probably a lot of different places. And so the story, the narrative is great too.
Ken, why are you considering leaving your current job? I love it. I love the work, but I'm in state government.
And so there's very little opportunity for advancement. The only advance would be into a role that's not doing this.
And so I'm ready to move into the private sector. That's a great answer.
George, isn't that a great answer? It doesn't sound flaky. No.
And it also sounds impressive. You've been trained by the state, and so we've got some credibility there.
You've got a long track record. Good performance reviews, correct? Yeah.
Let's go. That's what you're looking for.
Now, I wanted to jump in right away, but now I want to give you a chance to ask any questions around what I've said, because that's what I wanted you to hear right out of the gate. That's where you would start.
I'm not saying you're limited to what advice I just gave, but you would certainly start there. So what questions do you have that we've not answered? Well, so my other, I guess part of the question would be during us going through baby step two, would that be the good time to switch careers? Sure.
As long as there's no interruption of income. Okay.
If it's going to mean going back to school and not working and going to zero dollars and no but you know if this is

something where you could do this on the side get the training you need and do it on top of or make that instead of a leap it's just a a little jump then we're talking yeah and what's your wife's income so my wife is a teacher so she gets about 47 000 a year okay so you guys are making about $110 gross per year?

Yeah, about.

And on the current trajectory, how long will it take to get out of debt from here? Last I checked, it'll take a little bit over a year because I work a side debt, I guess you'd call it a side hustle, as an interim pastor. Okay.
So we're able to put most of that to the debt, so we're able to probably be able to get that done in just over a year. So I would continue to do that as a side hustle, do as much of it as you can, figure out what training is needed to move into the private sector, if any, and then pursue that, you know, all that at the same time as you get out of debt.
Okay. It sounds like you know what you need to do.
It's just the confidence of going, should I make this move into maybe the private sector? Yeah. You've got a few years of experience at this job, right? Yeah, I've got about three and a half at this position.
I've been at the state for about 11 years now. Okay.
Yeah. You're just doing a search for training, instruction, instructor work, and seeing what all is out there.
And I think there might be some contract work you could pick up right now before you even decide what's the next full-time move. That's what I would be looking for.
Just to get momentum and baby step two. But here's the deal.
You're going to be okay. Yes, you can can make the transition but you make the transition when you step off of one boat right onto the next boat all right no jumping out in the water yeah yeah you got this ken let's go man i need some kenergy out of you i'll give you the last word are you confident are you confident now all right my man he needed a little kenergy That's all you need sometimes.
Yeah. I think that's my allotment for saying that word.
Yeah, we're done. Notice I stopped.
No, it's not. I think that's like three or four times too much.
This is The Ramsey Show. Rachel, do you ever get these sketchy text messages that are like, hey, you need to update your address and verify so we can get you the package you didn't order? Yes, I have.
George Sketchy and never trust him. And that's why we recommend Delete Me.
They help with that. Yeah, they do.
Delete Me actually goes in and removes your information from data broker websites. And it is an incredible service that everyone needs.
And there's a lot of shady companies out there that solely exist to sell your personal data to bad guys. And that means your info, like your email address, your home address, your kids' names, your name, everything is just out there for scammers and spammers to find.
That's right. And then once they remove your information, then they're going to send you a detailed report telling you where they found your information, when they removed it, how many hours they've saved you.
I mean, it is incredible. So detailed and it's beautiful.
I love these reports so far. Get this.
They've reviewed 27,000 listings on my behalf, removed me from 240 data broker sites and saved me 77 hours of time. It's incredible.
Absolutely amazing. And Winston and I now get fewer texts, weird emails, spam calls, all of it.
I love it. So you got to be sure to check them out.
Ramsey fans get 20% off their annual plans. Just go to joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey.
That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. Super affordable.
It's amazing. So again, that's joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey.
Make sure to check it out, you guys. If you're a small business owner and you feel burned out, then you've got to join us at Entree Leadership Summit this May 18 through 21.
This leadership conference will refuel you with fresh vision and connect you to like-minded leaders so you can take your business to the next level. But you better hurry because we're running out of seats.
We've got less than 200 seats left. If you want to join us in Denver, Colorado, go to RamseySolutions.com slash summit right now.
Or if you're listening on YouTube or podcast, just click the link in the description. Welcome back to the Ramsey show.
Thrilled that you were with us alongside George Camel. I'm Ken Coleman.
The phone number is triple eight, eight, two, five, five, two, two, five. Let's go to Austin, Texas.
And Jake is waiting for us there. Jake, how are you? Good.
We're having a good time. We can't

hear you real well. Give me another little sound check there.
Hello. Can you hear me now? Oh,

there we go. I don't know what you did.
The flick of the wrist, man. Nice move.

Awesome. Well, thank you all so much for having me.
Quick question. I am just curious.

My financial advisor is recommending that I open a whole life plus 100 life insurance policy. Of course.
And so I would just love y'all's wisdom and input on that. Well, here's the simple wisdom.
Fire them. You don't have a financial advisor.
You have an insurance salesman posing as a financial advisor. Yeah, so I guess the situation is they are recommending to open this to supplement income if the market is down.
No, no, we know all this, Jake. We know how the scam works.
We're just telling you it's a scam. Yeah, so saving you a little bit of time, anything you tell us that they told you, we've heard.
Yeah. So George is feisty today.
Very feisty. I just hate, I believe you ate and left no crumbs.
Is that what the kids say? Yeah. Yes.
Ate and left no crumbs. Thank you for that.
Yeah. I'm trying folks.
I'm really trying. I hate nothing more than when people get ripped off and I'm glad you're catching this before you jumped into it.
And we have to tell you, cancel the whole life policy and fire your financial advisor. And so I understand what they're telling you.
Here's the key. Any good financial advisor would tell you, you should not mix insurance and investing.
If you want to invest, be my guest. If you want insurance, get you some term life insurance, but you should not mix the two.
It's a very crappy product. Just the internal cost of this thing could implode eventually because of how expensive it is and how high the commissions are for the insurance agent.
And so they don't have your best interest at heart. That's the bottom line.
And any financial advisor who's worth their salt would tell you, oh, Jake does not need whole life insurance. He needs to invest in XYZ fund.
And so they should be, I don't know where you found this person. Is this an old buddy of yours? Mutual, one of their like sister companies.
Okay. I would say no, thank you.
And I'm going to actually pause and I'll circle back when the time comes and then just never never circle back you do it as politely as you need to and if you want a trustworthy financial advisor jump on ramsey solutions.com and click on trusted pros and i can guarantee you they're never going to be pitching you whole life insurance you just gave me a great idea for a segment that james will never approve hit me. Pitch it.
We could do old school shock jock kind of radio, but nothing shocking. And we would be on with Jake.
Listen, hear me out. Okay.
We would be on with Jake right now. And we would have James and the fancy, you know, they're all smart back there.
And they could dial up this guy's advisor. Oh, we hear it live.
And the guy answers. Jake's on the call.
We're over here. And Jake goes, hey, so-and-so.
Listen, I'm getting back to you on the proposal. I got a couple guys with me on here.
And you and I now jump in and we go, hey, so-and-so. It's Ken and George from the Ramsey Show.
And we just had a great talk with Jake. And Jake is authorized to say this to you.
No, thanks. And we hang up the phone.
That's it. We do it for him.
It's not ugly. Yeah.
It's not unkind. I'm sure Mike is a good person.
But you just said no thanks, and I like it's no thanks. I'm down, Ken.
I'm down. Let's do it.
Do you like that? I love it. It's not unkind, and we're not trying to be rude, but it's a kind of you're fired, but it's like, by the way, you're on the Ramsey Show, and no thanks.
I'm just impressed James liked one of your ideas. You know how rare that is? Well, to be fair to James, my ideas are not necessarily very easy for him to like.
Ken's eaten food on the show several times, so I'm pretty sure I don't turn down Ken's ideas that much. I know.
I'm actually making James out to be. He's very nice.
He's one of the nicest people on the planet. So pleasant.
No, I thought it was fun, James. I really didn't think it was a serious pitch.

But if we could do that, I do think it would be entertaining.

Here's why I'm saying this.

Jake calls.

Here's what's going on.

How many times do we get that call in a given month about whole life?

Probably five.

Five or six at least.

But this is an industry that still thrives.

Yes.

They're still out there.

And, boy, if you've ever heard dave talk about whole life holy smokes i mean when i was real nice about it oh my gosh when he calls i put a helmet on i think somebody calls hurt dave as a child there's that level of anger and trauma involved anyway no thanks jake george gave you i like those very kind because you're a classy guy. Yeah, I don't want to be a jerk.
No thanks. That's our new thing.
No thanks. Kathleen is up next in Chicago.
Kathleen, how can we help? Hi. Thank you for taking my call, by the way.
I am currently living with my daughter while I'm looking to buy a house. And what I've been

looking at, it feels like the prices are way high for what the houses are.

You're breaking up on us, Kathleen. Speak directly into your phone.

Kathleen, I don't know if you're in a bad sell zone, but we can't hear you.

Let me come closer to the window. I'm by the window.
Can you hear me now?

I was going to suggest that, but I didn't want to be too bold.

So you feel like house prices are very high right now, and you want to buy a house. What's the question?

The question is, should I go ahead and throw all my money into the house,

or should I hold off and wait for a housing bubble, if there is in fact one, to burst,

while we recover with our energy production and reduce regulations. Wow.
You're very trusting. Well, Kathleen, let me tell you what Kathleen is.
Kathleen is paying attention to the headlines, aren't you, Kathleen? You're in the news. Well, I'm watching it for sure.
I know. That's where that comes from, George.
Tell her about the bubble. The bubble, we talked about this when the last time this came up, which was around kind of post-COVID.
Everyone's freaking out. And we did a whole real estate event talking about, hey, there's not going to be this market crash.
It's not going to be 2008 all over again. And there's a lot of reasons for that.
We covered it in the event. The TLDR on this is, I would not wait.
I would not sit on the sidelines waiting, hoping for some bubble. And here's how I know that.
If mortgage interest rates go down, what's going to happen? It's going to cause more buyers to flood the market, right? Correct. Correct.
What happens when more buyers flood the market? Prices don't go down, they go. They go up.
Exactly. Right.
Right. And so I don't see a drastic change in home prices.

We've seen a little fluctuation here and there. And I think you're going to look back six years

from now and go, oh my gosh, why did I wait? That house that was 600 is now 750. And so the right

time to buy a house is when you're financially ready. And so when you said I put all my money,

what does that entail? Well, I shouldn't say all my money. I'm retired and

Thank you. So when you said I put all my money, what does that entail? Well, I shouldn't say all my money.
I'm retired, and I have my retirement investments, and that's set aside to not be touched. Okay.
But this is money that I have from when I sold my last house. Okay.
How much are we talking? We're talking $350,000. And how much is the house that you would like to buy? I'd like to buy a house for $350,000, but they are not looking like anything I can actually live in over the long course.
I want something that I can retire that I can age in, age in place. Okay, so what would that cost? Is it $400,, 500? Yeah.
It's looking like to touch it, it's 400. Okay.
So let's say you took out a $50,000 loan. Could you afford the payment on that with your retirement income where it's 25% or less of your take-home pay? I believe so.
Yes. Then I would do it and I would pay it off and in a few years it'll be gone.
I mean, most people have car loans bigger than that. And so taking on $50,000 to get into a house now before it becomes a $500,000 house four years from now, I'm going to do that.
I agree. So you don't have a moving target on your hands.
I agree. That's a smart play.
Thank you. Thank you.
That's the lesson of inflation. And you wonder, well, okay, which side should I be on? The inflation or the bubble first? Yeah, I don't have a crystal ball.
And so I live my life like I'm getting control of what I'm in control of. And I hope they change the regulations and that we're flooded with more supply in the market.
And that helps the housing market as a whole. But I don't put a feather in my hat.
I got to live my life. Yeah.
And Kathleen, this is a little extra advice you didn't ask for. I'd look at your cell phone carrier.
I might switch carriers. That's a good call.
You don't want to be near the window all the time. You deserve better cell signal in retirement.
That's all I'm saying. I agree.
You don't want to have to be stuck in one place of the house just to make a good call. So I think you deserve better.
We need to look into Wi-Fi calling on the show. Is that a thing, James? Maybe.
I've got to look into it. He's going to look into it.
We've pushed way too much. We need to settle down.
Hey, quick break. Don't go anywhere.
People are lining up to get coached up. You don't want to miss it.
This is The Ramsey Show. For free tools and resources to help you reach your home goals, go to ramseysolutions.com slash real estate or click the link in the show notes.
You know, one of the first things I discovered working in the financial world is how absolutely devastating it is when the breadwinner of a family dies and there's too little life insurance or none at all. Grieving families are suddenly left behind, scrambling to pay bills and trying to make ends meet.
I also discovered that there are a lot of ripoffs in the life insurance world, like that whole life crap posing as an investment opportunity. What you need is level term life insurance, usually 10 to 12 times your income, which is the smartest, most affordable way to protect protect your family the key is finding an independent broker who represents a ton of companies and works for you not for the insurance company this is exactly what my friend Jeff Zander and his team at Zander Insurance are all about they shop the term life companies to find you the best options and they've been around for over 95 years so you know they'll be there when you need them zander is the real deal and that's why they've handled all my personal insurance for over 25 years i trust them and you can too visit zander.com for instant online quotes or for a more personal touch, give them a call at 800-356-4282.

Listen, I know a lot of you would rather watch paint dry in slow motion than file your taxes. But thankfully, you don't have to dread filing when you've got Ramsey SmartTax.
It comes packed with everything you need to file online before the big deadline. That means all major federal forms and deductions are covered with no hidden fees.
Plus, with Ramsey Smart Tax, you can save up to 70% compared to other tax software out there. It's a no-brainer.
Just go to ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax and see how simple tax filing can be. That's ramseysolutions.com slash smart tax.
Welcome back, America. You're joining the conversation about you, your life, how to win with your money, win in your profession, win with your relationships here on The Ramsey Show.
Alongside George Camel, I'm Ken Coleman. Phone number is 888-825-5225.
888-825-5225. Let's go to Detroit.
And William is there. William, how can we help? Hey, how's it going, guys? We're having a blast.
How can we help? Yeah, so I'll get right to the point. So me and my wife, first off, huge fans of the show.
We've been doing the baby steps for about a month now. We're totally sold out, changed our life, changed everything about us.
But I guess, yeah, the issue that we're having is we've been attending a church for about 10 years, 10, 11 years, I can't, I don't, somewhere around there. And well, our pastor isn't aligned with this viewpoint of debt that we now have.
And we're just, we're just wondering how to navigate that. Because like I said,, it's changed everything about our life.
When you say he's not aligned, has he from the pulpit talked about debt? Let me think. From the pulpit, no, but I have a close relationship with him.
I know his viewpoints and the way the church structure is. And I'm not hating on him.
I love the guy. He's done so much for me.
But, you know, it's mentally straining. You know, his mentality is you'll always have debt.
Debt's a part of life, right? Wow. Has he read a book out there? It's called The Bible? Has he looked into that? Yeah.
Okay. How does he reconcile, you know, Proverbs 22, 7, the borrower's slave to the lender? Yeah, like I said, I don't think he's, I don't, you know, I don't think he's preached a message on debt or used that passage.
I think, you know, he just, you know, he, you know, just like everybody else, you know, looks at the world we live in and, you know, everybody uses debt. You know, they think they leverage debt or whatever.
Okay, let me throw another one at you. Be not conformed.
You know that one? To the pattern of this world, be renewed by the... Does that not ring a bell for him either? That we shouldn't conform to culture and the stupidity of it? No, I totally get what you're saying.
Okay. I don't have a theological basis for this.
These are just like, just spitballing. Ken, listen, you're dropping scripture, George.
There's no shame in your game. Here's my question.
So, William, the pastor is not, you're not calling because the pastor is preaching this and trying to lead the flock and all this. He's not anti-you and your wife being a part of the baby steps and FPU and all that stuff.
It's just

when you guys are having conversation, you're kind of on fire and you're talking about all this,

and this is just kind of two dudes talking, and he just kind of glibly throws out, yeah, you know,

and this kind of just bothers you a little bit. Is that what I'm getting?

Yeah, because it's different than a friend. You know, he's my pastor, and I love the guy.

Yeah, but here's my question.

What is your question for us?

Yeah, I don't, you know, it's, so for me, me and my wife now, this has become part of our doctrine.

You know, for me, because I've struggled for so many years.

When me and my wife got married, ever since we got married, debt has been such a huge thing for us. It's kept me up at night, everything you guys talk about.
And then we started the baby steps and there's peace now. But to be in a position where you don't feel comfortable to talk with someone you respect because you know their response, it's just mentally draining.
So are you having this conversation all the time with him no no that's that's the thing like i said we just started i haven't really brought it up to him um yeah i don't know it's okay so here's what i'm trying to get at so william i feel i feel you i understand what you're saying however i think you've got this thing worked up really big in your mind and i think it's actually actually not that big a deal. And here's what I mean.
If his view on debt as your pastor has got you to a place where you just are uncomfortable with him on other issues, it's time for you to go find another church. However, I want to point out that as a pastor's kid, that you have to decide what is it, what does that relationship look like? What do I want it to look like? And is this something that is worthy of me leaving the church? And if it is, fine.
That is your prerogative. I got zero problem with it.
But if you can still sit under his preaching and you feel like he's leading the church in a fiscally responsible way, because a lot of churches, here's the other not-so-secret secret, there's a lot of churches out there that have debt and use debt and they pay it off and they use it to build buildings and everything else. So I'm not quite sure you don't really have a question for us.
You're just kind of going, what do you guys think? And so what I think is that if this is a stumbling block for you, another scripture, and he is a stumbling block for you, then remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block. He doesn't think he's a stumbling block.
So you're not going to change his views on debt. And this is a guy that knows all that scripture.
He knows it backwards, forwards, most so and uh he's glib about it so don't let this be a distress to you it shouldn't be you're given that way too much power george uh yeah i'm with you i'm not saying hey you need to leave the church tomorrow i'm saying if you can't deal with the incongruency and you also don't trust his leadership anymore then i think that's going to you, just like it would in a career. If you don't trust your leadership, you think there's a lack of integrity there, it doesn't align with your values, eventually that's going to eat away at your soul.
And so I'm telling you, that would be a reason to leave. But if you're like, hey, good guy, theologically sound, we disagree on debt as a tool.
All right, that's a different situation. Yeah.
Yeah. But there's a piece of this, Ken.
And my church, we inherited, there was a church merger. They inherited $7 million of debt.
Yeah. And they looked up and said, we're giving a million dollars in interest to lenders every single year.
Yeah. What if we aggressively attack this as a church and we freed up that million dollars to do the work of the church? And that's exactly what they did.
And now they're able to fund ministries and new projects. They're building centers for recovery.
And they have a whole ministry for single parents to fund car repairs and furnish cars for them. That's the kind of stuff you can do when you're debt free.
Instead of, oh, we've got to. So that's what your tithes are going to kids.
Yeah. And I think this is a relational issue.
And I want to hang out here for just a second, George, because I think this is important. And I think I want to help William as best we can.
But I have very good friends, George. I mean, very good friends.
I love being with these friends. But we don't agree on some stuff.
I mean, like, the kind of stuff that's, like, big stuff. And if we were to constantly talk about that, it would create a real tension.
But I have found we don't need to talk about it. Because here's what I know.
They have thought and decided a long time ago, this is what they think about this particular issue. This is their worldview on this issue.
That's right. So have I.
And I'm not changing it. And neither are they.
Everybody's aware. We didn't sit down and have this conversation the way I'm not changing it and neither are they everybody's aware we didn't sit down

and have this conversation the way I'm laying it out but we just kind of know that you know

there's sort of an unspoken boundary there we kind of know where we are and because we value

being around each other we just steer clear of that particular topic and the relationship is

one of my it's one of my favorite friends so I just gotta tell you I I appreciate William but

there's this

Thank you. And the relationship is one of my favorite friends.
So I just got to tell you, I appreciate William, but there's this crusader mentality. We have it here in the building.
And when people's lives are changed by the baby steps in this philosophy, you want to share that good news. It's the same as somebody coming to faith.
Maybe they were an agnostic or an atheist, and their life is transformed literally by this good news. And what do they want to do? They want to share it everywhere.
Why don't you get this? Why don't you get this? And not everybody gets the baby steps. Not everybody thinks it even matters.
And it feels like this is the consulate. So it's this real weird deal for William and a lot of us, when we are so passionate and convicted about something, that has transformed us.
So here's the deal. Not everybody's going to get it.
And that's not up to you. Well, you just gave me a light bulb moment.
I think William should lead a Financial Peace University class in the church. Start a groundswell movement of people going, hey, we became debt free in our personal life.
What's going on with the church? What if we could become debt-free as a church? What could we do? And the pastor's probably not going to be against that. The pastor just goes, my personal life, I don't mind carrying this and I don't mind this.
I get it. It's a tough situation, but you don't have to lose relationships over some of this stuff, is my point.
Do you? You do you. It's hard enough to live your life, you know, trying to live someone else's.
Hey, yeah, yeah. I don't know.
So anyway, food for thought. Thanks William for the call.
You're a good man. Quick break.
We'll be right back. This is the Ramsey show.
Hey guys, good news. Pre-sale is on now for my new book, Build a Business You Love.

If you're a business owner, you know running a business is hard.

That's why I wrote this book, to share what we learned over the last 30 years so business owners can grow your business faster with fewer mistakes.

Pre-order your copy today, and you'll get access to over $350 in bonus items

only at RamseySolutions.com slash store.

RamseySolutions.com slash store. RamseySolutions.com slash store.
Pre-order today. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show alongside George Camel.
I'm Ken Coleman. So glad you're with us.
888-825-5225 is the phone number. Our Ramsey Network app question is from Derek today.
Derek writes, my New Year's resolution is to max out my Roth IRA contribution. I'm 30 years old.
And I want to know if it's best to contribute to a target date index fund that will automatically adjust risk as I age, or should I just invest in an S&P 500 index fund? Great nerdy question from our friend Derek. He has been doing the research.
Yes, he has. Okay, so I'll give you one man's take on this.
I am personally not a fan of target date funds, and here's what they do. They start out with mostly equities, right? Stocks.
And over time, they'll start to introduce more bonds into the equation, which will reduce your quote unquote risk, but it also reduces your returns. So think about this.
You get to retirement age at 60 and you could make it to 90. So for the next 30 years, you've basically stunted the growth of that account to the point where it might run out.
And so here's my take, and Dave would back me up on this. It's wise to just stay invested heavily in equities.
Now, if you talk to your financial advisor at 60 and you take into account your risk tolerance and all that, they might go, hey, let's put you in 20%, 30% bonds, whatever. But I'm not a fan of target index funds doing that on your behalf, especially for a young 30-year-old.
You want to stay heavily invested in the stock market versus moving towards those bond funds. So yeah, S&P 500 index fund is great.
Growth stock mutual funds are great. In those retirement accounts, mutual funds are awesome.
If you're talking about a taxable brokerage account outside of retirement, that's where the index funds really come in handy because they're low turnover and you'll have lower tax implications on that. So great question, Derek.
I'm going to go with no to the target date fund and yes to staying in the equities, my friend. I'm going with what he said.
A lot of nerd speak. Well done, sir.
You should do this for a living. Well, a lot of people just, they set it and forget it.
That's the beauty of target date funds, and you can do worse. It's not a terrible, terrible thing, but my take is you want to stay.
I want to keep that 10% to 12% return instead of getting a 3%, 4%, 5% return in retirement. Couldn't agree more.
Let's go to Salt Lake City now where Bridget is joining us. Bridget, how can we help? Hello.
Hi. Hi.
I'm so excited to talk to you, Justin. Well, that's fun.
The excitement is shared. I like that little chuckle, little pre-question chuckle there from Bridget.
This is exciting, Bridget. How can we help? Yes.
I have recently become the main breadwinner of our family when my husband retired from the military. And now we are looking at how to protect our family's well-being in case I become unable to work.
So we have been looking into disability insurance, but we are also pretty sure that I will have at least a couple of exclusions from coverage. So we're wondering if it's even worse.
Is it due to the nature of your career? No, no. It's just pre-existing conditions that I have been living with for two decades now.
Okay, so you have a pretty good idea that you're going to eventually have to stop working. Do you have a kind of a timeline um no not like that it's it's like things like hypertension and i have a few spines and stuff like that so those are things that if they happen or if they become worse oh i see i don't get me disabled but they may never become an issue gotcha very well might.
Okay, gotcha. Can you purchase this through your employer? No.
Okay. So if you're going to go kind of look at the marketplace, have you gotten some quotes yet? I have talked to Xanders.
Okay, what did they say? And they're currently, all of my information is in underwriting, but they said that I should probably expect a premium around $100 a month. That sounds reasonable.
Yeah, I was also surprised. But with all three of my conditions excluded.
So if you're unable to work due to those conditions, it won't be covered? Correct. Got it.
Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, your goal should be to become self-insured at that point.
I would take the disability insurance for $100 a month, and then on top of that, be working those baby steps to become self-insured over time and make sure that you have other insurance in place, like term life policy, for example. Do you have that? Yes, but I need to up it.
I was covered for a little bit that I was making as a stay-at-home homeschooling mom, but I need it now that I'm the main... Yeah,

what do you make a year? Last year, I made 71, but I wasn't working until that, so it's probably

going to be more around 90,000 this year. Awesome.
So you're looking at a million-dollar policy. And some of these you can even do no medical exam completely online.
And so you might be able to, especially if you're just trying to get a little bit more on top of the one that you already have, it's going to be very affordable. The disability insurance you just mentioned, $100 a month, very reasonable.
Usually it's 1% to 3% of your annual income, and it's going to cover 60% to 70% of your income should you need to use it. Yeah, they told me that I can, Sanders told me that I can probably expect around $3,000 a month, which is perfect because it covers our mortgage.
And then my husband's VA disability and retirement just has to cover our groceries and all of those things, which should be very easily doable. And remember, here's the point of insurance.
It's just to transfer risk so that you don't have to shoulder it. So to pay someone $100 a month, $1,200 a year, you do that for 20 years, it's 24 grand over 20 years.
I will happily pay that for the peace of mind, knowing that if something should happen, I'm going to get that 3000 a month for the foreseeable future. And so that's, that's where I'm, is it worth the investment? Absolutely.
For the a hundred bucks a month you're paying and for the risk that you're transferring, it's definitely worth it. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you, Bridget, for the call. Great question.
Not every day you get to talk about disability insurance. It's fair.
That's a good point. And Ramsey, we have ours covered through Ramsey, so it's a good thing to check with your employer to see if they already cover it, if they offer it.
Usually it's very affordable through your employer, and that's a great way to go. And you saw Xander.

She went to Xander. You got a great quote there that's very reasonable for a lot of peace of mind, as you said.
Let's go to Boston, Massachusetts, that area. That's where Georgia hails from.
Love it. Mike is there.
Mike, how can we help? Hey, good afternoon, guys. Good afternoon.
Thanks for taking my call. Sure.
I have recently, sadly, I guess, come into some money through an inheritance. My wife and I's plan is to pay off all of our debts, and even with that, we'll have some money left over.
Wow. My specific question is we specific question is we currently have a mortgage, uh, that totals about $450,000, uh, three 50 of that is a, uh, 20 year mortgage, uh, at 2.8, seven, 5%.
And we have about 15 years left to pay on that. The other a100,000 is a HELOC.
That's about 6% right now. We're going to have enough to pay off the HELOC and get the first mortgage down to about $250,000.
Wow.

My question is, and I've asked a couple folks, I'm getting competing answers, so I'm hoping you guys are a tiebreaker.

I have the possibility of refinancing that $250,000 balance to a regular mortgage at

6%, but for 10 years.

What would be the point of that? To lower the payment? So if I lower the pay, yeah, my payment's currently $3,300 a month. If I refinance, I can get that payment down to about $2,400 a month, and then I'll be able to actually put $1,000 per month towards the principal loan.
Well, you can just do that on your 20-year mortgage. You can still add more to the principal.
It's not going to change the numbers. Well, with my income, I wouldn't be able to do that.
What's your take-home pay? About? Every month. Monthly, $10,000.
Okay. I think this is reasonable.
I would just attack that mortgage with a vengeance. What you can look into is a mortgage recast, where they can just recast it without changing the terms, without changing the interest rate, and that can get your payment lower while really accomplishing the same goal.
So I wouldn't refinance at this juncture unless you're going to ROI on it real quick. Thanks for the call.
This is the Ramsey Show. We'll see you next time.