Building Wealth Starts With Setting Aggressive Goals

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people

build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today, number one best-selling author,

and we're here to answer your questions about your life and your money.

Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Andrew starts off this hour in Miami. Hi, Andrew.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show. What's up? Not too much.
Thank you so much for having me, Mr. Ramsey.
Sure. So I had two questions regarding whole life insurance.
I know you're a general principal, but I've never actually heard you discuss these two characteristics of whole life insurance or these two scenarios. So I was kind of curious of your opinion regarding the subject, if you don't mind.
Sure. I'm an expert on my opinion.
So the first question is like this. Today in America, if a person is a single person is earning $150,000 a year or less, they can put up to $7,000 into a Roth IRA.
That grows tax-free. But at $150,000 after taxes, about $130,000, a single person pretty much anywhere in America still has plenty of money.
So let's say you're putting money into an investment brokerage account. My question was on whole life insurance, it also grows tax-free.
I know it doesn't have

the same rate of return, but if a person wanted to increase their long-term tax-free savings, would that be something you would consider as a viable approach that they've already maxed out their Roth IRA or if they have a company, a Roth 401k, they still can only max out at 7,000. How long ago did you take your job selling whole life? I've actually

I've only sold a couple of policies but sale can only max out at $7,000. How long ago did you take your job selling whole life?

I've actually only sold a couple of policies, but

no, I'm

not actually involved in the industry

specifically. How did you sell

policies if you're not involved in the industry?

I am a licensed

agent, but I haven't done it in a few years.

Because you pretty much spouted

their line perfectly.

This is the whole life sales line. That's how I knew you were selling it.
You nailed it. Like you were just trained like three weeks ago.
That's what it sounded like. Not picking on you, but you are representative of the industry.
Okay. So let me help you with this.
Let me help you with this. Whole life does not grow tax-free unless you lose money.
And your basis for tax purposes in a whole life policy is the total of your premiums. So if you pay in $100,000 over a bazillion years into your whole life policy and your cash value is ninety thousand dollars you have lost ten thousand dollars and so of course there's no taxation or you can borrow your own money and pay them an interest rate to borrow your own money and by the way 100 percent of, borrowed money is not taxable.
So whole life in and of itself does not grow tax-free. That is a falsehood.
If it actually made money and you took the money out, it would be taxable. But they never do because they suck so bad.
The rate of return is horrendous, and the fees are so high. And so, no, I would never consider that as an option.
Instead, I would, listen, dude, if you put your money in a fruit jar as your side investment after you maxed out a Roth, you're going to end up with more money than you will screwing around with the whole life policy because they lose money. I'm impressed that you sniffed that out as quickly as you did.
Too much time and 30 years being hated on by whole life people. That was pretty impressive.
I'm not going to lie. I'm impressed.
Well, I mean, it's a scripted thing. Yeah,'s a it's a it's tax-free growth which is a complete lie y'all it's not tax-free growth if there is growth and you take it out it's taxed period but there never is because the rate of return is so horrible and the fees are so high so so here's the way whole life works for those of you listening.
And he's talking about it as an investment only, but let's talk about it as an insurance product, which is what it is purported to be. And that's, you only have to have a life insurance license, not a securities license to sell the crap.
So the, which is easy to pass. If you can, if you can roll out of bed, you can probably pass your life insurance exam.
It's not that hard. Security's exam, on the other hand, very hard.
Now, whole life is 20 times more expensive than the same amount of term on the same person. So a 30-year-old buying a $100,000 policy, if, say, for instance, they did that for $5, whole life would be $100.
Okay, so where does the extra $95 go above the cost of insurance? Because term is only insurance. That's right.
It goes into an investment called cash value, which is what he was bringing up. Okay, the investment called cash value, the first three years on a whole life policy, your investment growth is zero.
100% of your $95 a month in our example, the extra 19 times you're paying for this, you get zero in your investment. So you open a bank account and you put in $95 a month for three years

and the balance is zero. No one would do that, by the way, if they understood that.
They do it all the time, but no one would do it if they understood that. You're right, which is our goal here is to make everyone understand it.
Then once it does start making money, the average whole life policy in America today averages 1.2 percent with an inflation rate of 4.7.

Losing money. whole life policy in america today averages 1.2 percent with an inflation rate of 4.7 losing money and so after you get past those two things here's the worst part of the whole thing so this little couple buys a hundred thousand dollar life insurance policy they pay into it for 20 years they have 20 000 bucks in there finally after they got 1.2 percent and has nothing for the first three years and then he dies you know what they pay they pay the life insurance just the premium the face amount what happened to the money i've been paying 95 extra to build up in my savings account uh insurance company keeps it you do not get the face value plus the cash value.
Well, let me ask this, because I... Let me finish.
Okay, keep going.

Keep going.

So, you... uh insurance company keeps it you do not get the face value plus the cash value well let me ask this because i let me finish okay so you have a savings account that the first three years you put money in they keep all of it after that you make one percent on it and when you die they keep your money who would open this savings account nobody but people do every day it's the biggest let me tell you it's the payday lender of the middle class.
It's crap. Sorry, Andrew, but you asked.
So when do they, a guy like Andrew, if somebody said, I'm interested, let's say they had built up a certain amount of cash value. When would a guy like Andrew say, here's the right time to get at that money.
So you, so, you know, it's all a risk game, but so that you can get it before you die. Well, you you can't get it before you die the only way you could get it is cash the policy in because if you borrow the money out then you're paying before you die they repay the debt to yourself to make sure they keep the whole cash value before they pay out the face value so if you borrowed twenty thousand and a100,000 policy and you died with the loan out, you get $80,000 instead of $100,000.
They pay back the loan so they make sure they get to keep it. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
So the only way to get to keep the money is to cash out the policy. And then at that point, why get it to begin with? And you have lost money on it so it's not taxable.
Terrible, terrible, terrible. No, you're better off putting money in a fruit jar, darling.
At least when you die, it's there. Assuming the family knows where the fruit jar is buried.
But be careful with that one. That did happen to one of my relatives.
We got cousins out there with metal detectors in the backyard trying to figure this one out. Don't do that one either this is the ramsey show jade washaw ramsey personality is my co-host today thank you for joining us open phones at 888-825-5225 hayden is in nashville hi hayden welcome to the ram.
Hey, thanks so much for taking my call. Appreciate

it. Appreciate everything you do.
Thank you. So basically, I'm calling about my mom.
I'm very

concerned for her. She has a bad track record for being financially smart.
And recently,

she just got into a relationship. It's only been about six months and he has a lot of money.

So she thinks that she wants to quit her job and live off of his money and then sell her house.

And then that's her retirement.

So I don't I just don't really know like how to give her advice.

And she has asked me for advice.

She did ask.

Interesting.

She she did ask.

Thank you. like how to give her advice and she has asked me for advice she she did ask interesting she she did ask okay so because the one thing that changes the whole discussion is the marriage date when are they getting married that's exactly my point as well like i'm telling her you're not married before you decide to quit your job or decide to move in with him like But is there a deal? If you quit your job and move in with somebody and sell your house that's rich, that's called a sugar daddy.
We have a name for that. I've met the guy.
He's a really good guy. I don't care.
He's a sugar daddy. He might be a nice one, but that's what he is.
No, you don't do that, Mom. How did you get to be Mom and not know that? Trust me, I don't know.
So what have you said to her so far about it? What have you told her so far? He wants to take care of her, and he supports her in any decision she wants to do. If she doesn't want to work anymore that's okay she'll he'll pay for you know all the bills and she wants to sell her car she also has a she has 20,000 on her car right now um 8,000 in credit cards you know she's not good with her money and I'm saying what have you told her about this have you told her anything I told her I told, one, she needs to get married if she wants to, you know, rely on his income.
And did you tell her why? Oh, yeah. For sure.
It's hard for her to listen to me because, like, I'm not married. Ah, okay.
Another strand. Well, it's you're her kid.
That's strand one. Yeah, and that's another thing, too.
Yes, and then you've not been in the type of relationship that she's been in at least that's the way she's going to view it which is true so you're fighting again like you're fighting a current 100 let me tell you what if you ask your mom's dad he's probably gone right yeah yeah but if we were to ask him relationship they didn't know that's probably not a good example if we were to ask her uncle he would have said no i'll bonk him on the head no right or i mean even if you flip the script and put yourself in that situation although i i would love to think that she would tell you to do the the opposite but she might tell you to do the same thing that she's doing so she would smell that one out um i i don't you know your question is how to convince her of what all three of us know that this is a bad idea okay yeah so i guess the thing is this okay here's the thing anytime mom you're making a great huge decision and there's a series of great huge decisions you're making here you have to play out the decision is it a happy happy decision now the way that works is this you're happy if this works and you're still happy if this doesn't work if it all works and you just play house and the sugar daddy takes care of you it worked you're happy that's your plan but what happens if he dumps you in the street for a 10 year younger version trade you in on a new model mom uh because he can do that pretty easily here by waving the exact same carrot he waved in front of you um and be sugar daddy to somebody else So when he puts you in the street with no house, no car, and no job, where are you going to be? So you don't make big decisions like this, mom, when one of the possible outcomes is devastation. Bad risk management, bad lack of wisdom, lack of wisdom.
And I'm also just not in a position financially to help her she's asked me in the past for money that doesn't enter into how stupid this is right you're gonna have to give her money or not doesn't mean this is smart and you're gonna have to accept the fact that she's gonna do you could lay out the best argument in the world like perfectly just eloquent everything makes sense and she could still go and make this choice and it's going to be bad for her and you're going to have to just learn how to live with that and accept the fact that she's a grown woman and

she's making a bad mistake and there's nothing in many ways there's nothing you can do about it and

that's I think that that's the hardest part of being in a relationship with anyone that you

really care about is they get to choose is there anyone in her life that's wise that she trusts

I'll see you next time. of being in a relationship with anyone that you really care about, is they get to choose.
Is there anyone in her life that's wise that she trusts?

Her brother.

Have him call her and scream at her.

I'm serious.

He really likes the guy, so I haven't seen him acting really.

I asked if he was wise. Oh, yeah.
If he he's wise he doesn't think this is a good idea I'm not saying the guy's a horrible guy I'm saying this is a horrible deal for your mom without putting a ring on it buddy well the guy probably thinks if this is a good guy this guy probably thinks he's offering your mom the world. So maybe somebody needs to get in his ear and make him see, hey, we like you.
We think that you're probably trying to take care of our mom, but can you do this the right way? Because this way, the way that you're doing it now makes us nervous because if for some reason it doesn't work out, she's on her butt, right? So maybe that's the way to go at this is if there's somebody that has the right relationship to talk to him if he is really the good guy that you guys say he is that should give him a light bulb moment to go oh i get it yeah right put a ring on my mom just needs a reality check too the problem is she's not looked at the downside anytime you're making a big decision you have to look at the downside what's the possible outcome from this? And it'll keep you from doing some stupid butt stuff if you don't only consider that, you know, sunshine, rainbows, and Skittles. You know, it doesn't always turn out sunshine, rainbows, and Skittles, especially when the deal is set up poorly from the start.
You're kind of asking for it. Yeah, that's true.
You're asking to have your butt kicked. Life's going to come along and go, you was stupid.
Here's your butt kicking. Ready? Here you go.
And we all get to pay some stupid tax. We've all done some stupid butt stuff.
And she's signing up for one here. This is a trip that's going to be harsh.
Please don't do this, lady. Please don't do this.
Put a ring on it or don't do it. It's pretty simple.
Because I got to tell you, it changes the it changes the chemistry well i was gonna say there's no like balance of power in this relationship she sells everything she has there's no way in the world she could live in a house probably that he that he lives in on herself you know what i'm saying she has no ability to keep up life we need to bring back some of the vernacular from bygone eras let me hear it a kept woman oh you ever heard that one yes that's very uh i don't want to say the word old but that that's that's ancient yeah that's um a kept woman she's being kept yeah for use yes oh yeah i don't give you a little chill gives me a little chill i don't like it my my dad's stuff

my grandpa stuff gets angry right then so i just can't put a ring on it michael is in charlotte hey michael what's up hey i'm good how are you doing better than i deserve how can i help um i had a question um my wife and i are in the process of buying a house. We were pre-approved

and our loan officer

told us she doesn't

adjust a question um my wife and i are in the process of buying a house we were pre-approved and our loan officer uh told us she doesn't advise 20 down payment we're in north carolina she says the appreciation rate in north carolina i don't advise you using this loan officer she's stupid yeah i figured you would say something along those lines but i'm just i don't i have a hard time understanding how that works out how it would well her thing is that borrowed money has no risk so borrow all you can okay my thing is i've met people who are up to their eyeballs in a mortgage and can't get out they're stuck because of some idiot loan officer like this by the way she, she gets paid on what? What's her percentage on the loan amount? Conflict of interest in this advice. Hello.
Hey, you need to make more money if you don't put down so much. He needs to go to our real estate hub and find some folks who are going to actually help him.
Go to RamseySolutions.com slash real estate. There it is.
That's easy.

A whole bunch of stuff there that'll help you, Michael.

Yeah.

But she's getting paid on that.

You do need a loan officer.

This woman's not smart.

This is The Ramsey Show.

Statistics show that half of Americans don't have enough life insurance,

or they don't have any at all.

I don't understand this, John. Why don't people want to take care of their family? They think they're not going to die or something? Well, I used to be one of those guys.
I didn't even think about it. And one of my buddies said, hey, the only reason to not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids.
And I immediately went and got term life insurance. That's a gut punch.
For decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse. They've lost somebody important to them.
Me too. They don't know what to do next.
You're going to have a crisis here. You know, you got two options while you're sitting and talking to a young widow.
She's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up, or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow. That's exactly right.
These are the two options. It's saying I love you to your family.
Term Life Insurance. Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy and affordable.

I've used them personally for 25 years.

They're the only people I trust.

Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

Jade Washaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.

Thank you for joining us.

Today's Ramsey Show question of the day is sponsored by Why Refi?

When you're trying to get a job, Jade Washaw Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us.
Today's Ramsey Show question of the day is sponsored by Why Refi?

When you're trapped in a maze of defaulted private student loan debt, hard to find your way out,

but Why Refi can offer you a lifeline with custom refinancing based on your ability to pay

and a lump sum payoff option you could qualify for after 24 months at a discount go to y refi.com slash ramsey that's the letter y r e f y dot com slash ramsey might not be available in all states all righty then today's question comes from Ashley in Illinois. She says, my husband and I will be debt-free in about three years, house and everything.
Congratulations. The house we currently live in is the house that he lived in with his ex-wife.
I would like to get a place that is new to us, that we can create our life together. Is it stupid to get a mortgage when we are debt-? That's a very good question.
The simple answer is no, it's not bad. It's not the worst thing.
You could definitely do worse. And the reason that you're wanting to do this, I understand it.
I just wonder if you go ahead and you are debt free within this three year time frame. I wonder if what the market will be like.
And if there's something that you can just simply say, we're moving from one house to another, you may not have to go into debt. Or if it's a small amount, I'm not mad at it.
I just think that you're really going to love the feeling of being free. And so when that time comes, you're going to step very lightly.
You're probably going to be very lenient on the amount that you would be willing to borrow. And I think that that's a good thing.
Yeah, it's not to answer your question. It's not stupid.
It's not bad or evil. We just don't like debt.
So if you have the ability to do something in cash, I think that that's a great thing. But I definitely wouldn't go crazy on this.
Dave, what do you think? Here's what's interesting that it is assumed

that I have to move up in house to move out of her house. Yeah they might be able to get something move down in the house.
It's a novel concept. So now we're getting to the root of why we really want to move.
That's good, Dave.

Listen, you're not wrong.

I saw one with a jacuzzi. So now we're getting to the root of why we really want to move.
That's good, Dave.

Listen, you're not wrong.

I saw one with a jacuzzi and a skylight.

Mine doesn't have that.

They might be willing to consider that because she hasn't felt that freedom of no mortgage yet.

Well, I'm just saying that these are not necessarily the same thing.

You could move down in-house or you could move to the exact same price of house and be out of the ex's house which i completely would definitely want to do i would too but you're right there's probably yuck yuck that would gross me out i want out of her house and i also want into another nice nicer better house well i mean moving up in house is one question moving out of ex's house is another question. But even moving up in house, there are two different questions.
But even if she just simply said it like that, I personally still would be like, listen, if you told me you were taking on, at that point, it's like, hey, Jade, we're moving up in house. It's going to cause us to take on a hundred thousand dollar mortgage.
Then my question would be like, well, how quickly could you save to get that done? You you have no house payment so when you put it like that and go rent for two years exactly when you put it that way it's like well it's a small mortgage then if it's a small mortgage you could probably pay cash for it just as quickly so i can tell you once i got out i heard a horse is gonna drug me back you ain't going back i know that includes a dissatisfied wife nothing nothing nothing gonna drag me back in he ain't going back. I know that includes a dissatisfied wife.
Ain't nothing, nothing, nothing going to drag me back in. You ain't going back.
I know never going

back. So we might, I get, you want to move? Let's just go.
We'll go rent. I get, you want to move?

We're going to move down. We're going to get us a little condo where the ex hadn't been.
I get the

move, but you're, this lady is asking the same question we get when we have someone say, Hey, I have a $10,000 paid for car.

It just got totaled.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

It just got totaled.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

It just got totaled.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

It just got totaled.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

It just got totaled.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

Uh,

I have a $10,000 paid for car.

Uh, I have a $10,000 paid for car. Uh, I have a $10,000 paid for car.
Uh, I have a $10,000 paid for car. But this lady is asking the same question we get when we have someone say,

hey, I have a $10,000 paid-for car. It just got totaled.
I don't really want to go in debt to buy a new car. Well, you don't have to.
You get the $10,000 check from the insurance company, and you buy a $10,000 car. But instead, you're using the car totaling as an excuse to move up to a $20,000 car, and somehow that equates to payments, and you're going to act like the car being totaled caused this.
No, you moved up in car. You just wanted to go up in car.
Yeah. That's interesting.
The X didn't cause this. They didn't cause the move up.
They caused the move out. That's the other question of this.
I'm like, listen, if your plan was to go into debt for a mortgage anyway, then why are you waiting three years until you pay this thing off? Go ahead and move the point that's a good idea too that's a really good that's i like that the best thing we've said doug is in st louis hey doug what's up hey how's it going thanks for taking my call sure man how can we help hey so i've got some good news and i've paid off a lot of debt and um but i want to talk you about the emotional side. The guilt is still there.
So, yeah, so we had some major medical bills and some home repairs. Found ourselves over $100,000 in debt.
We decided we didn't want to pay the minimums anymore. So we paid off a third, settled a third, and then when my 99-year-old grandma passed away, we got a little bit of money.
So that, with the exception of our mortgage, my wife's two loans and a very small car payment, which we're going to pay off early, we are out of debt. Okay.
What is it you feel guilty about? Just still, even if we budget for it, a big purchase, it still feels uncomfortable. Or if you're going to the kids' activities and you run out of time and you swing by a McDonald's and you feel the occasional purchases, it still feels guilty.
Are you doing a budget? Yes. Is your budget account for those occasional purchases? Yes.
Are you able to accomplish your other goals with the occasional purchases? Yes. Yes.
Um, it just still feels weird. Do you feel bad that you didn't pay? Is it because you didn't use your earned money per se to pay off all the debt? Um, it's more a mixture of, I guess, I'm afraid to go back and then, you know, I've, I've really drastically increased my income.
Um, And so I feel a little like, you know, people who are having a harder time. Yeah.
And then the other part of the guilt is, so we have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. And because of the medical stuff and because it was just easier with my wife being home.
When she's home, we meal plan better. We save more money because we don't eat out.
We don't save money because my three-year-old has to go to daycare. We save more money that way.
But anytime you go visit family, friends, anything, it's the first, when she goes back, and it's like, well, I've increased my income. I think we'll be okay.
They don't get a vote. Who gave them a vote? I know.
It's in my head. And I guess what I'm trying to say is how do I get, we're doing fine, but how do I get all that voices out of my head? I assume that once you pay off the debt, it still takes a little bit before you feel that relief.
Listen, I'll be honest with you. My husband and I paid off a big amount of debt.
And immediately you're like, yes, this debt's gone. But you do feel the residual effects of that throughout your day-to-day life.
For me, I would go to the grocery store and my armpits would still sweat when it was time to swipe my card. Still, to this day, I have to stop myself from checking my account to make sure the money's there.
So there is that part of it that your body is just used to a certain response when it gets in those familiar circumstances. And I do think that that starts to fade over time.
I think the best thing for me, one of the best anecdotes for this has been anecdotes for this has been the budget and just going over it and saying, okay, I planned for this and reminding myself that I'm still doing all of the things that caused me to be a financially responsible adult. I'm still doing my investing.
I am still, you know, planning for the future. I'm still being generous.
Like when I tell myself, Jade, you're checking all the boxes. This is okay.
Then it kind of causes

my heartbeat to slow down. All the boxes are checked, including taking my wife out to a $300

dinner tonight. Okay.
Well, I'm not talking about it. I'm talking like, you know.
I am. I'm talking

about that. Maybe.
I think this woman needs somebody to take her to dinner, sounds like.

Thank you. to a $300 dinner tonight.
Well, I'm not talking about it. I'm talking about it.
Oh, I am.

I'm talking about that.

I think this woman needs somebody to take her to dinner,

it sounds like.

And sometimes, to Dave's point,

I do think you need to bust through those barriers a little bit and remind yourself why you did this.

Why did I pay off this debt?

There's a so that to it,

and the so that wasn't so that you could be at home

and fretting about every small purchase.

That wasn't the so that, right? OK, yeah, that's a good point. And as far as the other people getting a vote, I can tell you there's a high correlation between people that build wealth and those that don't give a crap what other people think.
Right. So you pretty quickly go, you know, whatever you want to think about, that's fine.
And I mean, I got people that want to tell us what to do, but they've even voted wrong for the president. So, you know, I don't even why do I want to listen to them? You know, you got to be careful who you're listening to, man.
You don't get a vote. You don't get a vote.
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I got to figure out what Sharon's buying herself. I have a couple of guesses.
My guess is it involves diamonds. Anything she wants is what it is.
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Kyle is in Salt Lake City. Hey, Kyle, what's up? Hey, Dave.
I appreciate you taking my call. I messed up big.
Went behind my wife's back, racked a 26K and credit card dead in four months. Pregnant wife, I should say, and now she's filing for divorce.
What did you jack up 26K on? Pokemon cards. Trying to buy a bunch and then sell them online, which didn't work out.
Oh, okay. All right.
She's filing for divorce. Yes, she already filed.
Sounds like things were pretty rocky before. Yeah, it's not because of these Pokemon cards.
That was just the final straw. Yeah, correct.
We have three boys together, two to five, and our first girl on the way, she's 15 weeks pregnant. So what went on before this, what were the straws before this? How have you been behaving? Um, angry, uh, short, not, not, not pleasant at all to be around.

Um, to be honest. I appreciate your honesty.
Yeah. Um, so let me ask you if you were to put

her shoes on for a minute, what do you think regarding this purchase that she's angry about? The deceit, the betrayal. Good, good.
That's good self-awareness. Yeah, in our world, we call this financial infidelity because you busted the trust almost as if you slept with someone yeah that's the way it feels it's the same part of the brain that you damaged yeah that that's what's going on and so that's why i pushed her over the top um and then so the net net of the thing is have you been able to sell the Pokemon cards yet? No, I'm going here on a few, I'm just getting everything together so I can take it to one of the local shops here in Salt Lake to sell and pay back some part of this debt.
What do you think they're going to bring? I'll be lucky, honestly, if I probably get five grand. So how did you mess this up that bad i'm confused so what had happened was i i i was trying to build a platform on social media so i i built an instagram account where you buy followers and uh i paid a lot of money on giveaways on an app called whatnot and that's how i really racked up the debt was buying these expensive giveaways to try to get people to come okay Okay, so you didn't really buy $26,000 worth of Pokemon.
You really spent some of this money on the website. Yes.
Yeah. Trying to build a false front.
Yeah. Yes.
Look like you're bigger than you really are. Yeah.
100%. Did you tell her any part of this and she said don't do it and you did it anyway or you just kind of did it all? Yes.
at we were at four grand and that's what she knew of 4500 and then i went um and continued as things were already going to rocky path i felt i just i self-indulged in myself yeah and went all in and on myself out of selfish greed and lust for fame that wasn't real are you in counseling counseling? I am. Yeah, she went with me today, went to my appointment.
Okay. That's good.
Yeah. I say that because you sound like you're working through this mentally.
At least it sounds like it in this very short call. Has she said anything to the effect of, here's what I need to see in order to stay with you or has she just said that's it she did uh i looked up a video from you guys i saw i came across your number last night um a financial infidelity she used that word and i told her i said look i know i'm going to be served papers tomorrow next day so if there's even a chance you'll stay with me i would burn all these cards right now work overtime and do whatever it takes wow what'd she say to that she said i want to go through a therapist appointment good and the therapist said why should she stay with you i said logically she shouldn't i said she has no room to stand on that she should um and i said but if there's even a chance even if in the end it's worth it to give a chance to my family.

So let me give you a parallel.

And we're not counselors.

Dr. John Deloney is our counselor.

But we work with people in these situations and have for 30 years so much that the parallel she's looking for, I'll tell you what, go pick up this book by Dr. Henry Cloud.

It's called Trust. Trust.
Trust. That's what this whole call is about.
Broken trust. And in his book, he talks about how to build trust and how to rebuild trust when trust has been broken.
Also recommend it for your wife because it'll give her some more, it'll give her the correct things if she's willing to demand of you that are the right things to demand of you okay and it should sound something like this what you're trying the way you rebuild trust is over a period of time you establish a pattern of never repeating the major offense here and you already told me what the major offense here was. It wasn't buying things on the internet.
It wasn't Pokemon cards. It was lying.
Yeah. That was the major offense.
And so if she enters back into this, if she were my daughter or my little sister, I would tell her to give you a shot, but you get one strike. Never again do you lie.
You are so unbelievably honest that it's awkward all the time around your house. Do these jeans make me look fat? Yes.
You have to tell the truth all the time. you have awkwardly and be proactive about making sure there's no place for mistrust to live so you're sharing all the account passwords you're putting the pin you know you're sharing your location on your phone i i always say make it to where there's no foothold for that to even get in yeah and that way there's no questions so let me let me kind of give you a correlation a little bit in my life there wasn't a deception but my wife did lose faith in me when we went broke because I was stupid which was valid it took years for her to trust a hundred percent in my judgment we made all decisions together and still make all decisions together which gives her comfort that i'm not off chasing the moon somewhere like you were you went off chasing a get rich quick thing and that i did too and that's how i went broke yeah didn't cost me my marriage did cost me bankruptcy because i was an idiot okay i did it with more zeros than you did it dude so um she but it took her i mean we've been married 43 years that was 35 years ago we filed bankruptcy to this day if i say a phrase a certain way i'll i'll see head tilt because it reminds her body.
It reminds her emotions of those old days. And then I have to stop and rephrase and go, okay, here's what I was really trying to say.
I can see her body react to this day. Now, it's not much.
It's very seldom today because it's been a lot of years of a good pattern trust has been

rebuilt she trusts my wisdom now and and but it's with you know i had 30 years to work on that absolutely so you've got to rebuild trust in your integrity no strikes no lying no purchases that she doesn't know about the rest of your life.

Not a freaking pack of gum. The rest of your life.
Period. And it's like if you were an alcoholic and she says, I'm done, but I'm going to give you one more chance.
One more time, you fall off the wagon, yeah yes you're on you're on a one strike deal and then then you got to lean into that and the and it sounds like you're ready to do that it does sound like that it does sound like that but I you know time will tell it she may not be ready she may not want to do it but um this is how it works folks you've got to got to tell the truth and you've got to work together on money. High correlation between that and winning with money.
High correlation in not doing that and losing with money. This is The Ramsey Show.
All right, Dave, you have some strong opinions. Possibly, yeah.
I think so. Okay, because you really prefer credit unions over big banks.
So why is that? Well, credit unions, for one thing, are non-profit, which means that the members, the customers, own the credit union. So any profits that the credit union makes goes back into customer pricing.
So you get better interest rate on savings, cheaper checking, and so on, that kind of but that's what's more important than that though is the fact that the customer is the owner changes the spirit on the credit union so i find very few credit unions that aren't very customer centric yes well and i think we have found one that is incredible and that's fair winds they are an incredible credit union that is really out with the heart to help the customer.

You know, that's why we're partnering with them.

Because they've got a scope to be able to handle the Ramsey audience.

And they're the right kind of people with the right kind of values.

And they've done a really, really good job with customer service.

And the deals that they're offering, the Ramsey tribe is incredible.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you're right. Their customer service is unbelievable.
Winston and I just signed up and we got an account. And I'm not kidding.
It took less than five minutes. It was so user-friendly.
The step-by-step approach was unbelievable. And then the next day, my phone rings and it says Fairwinds on my phone.
So I answered it and talked to someone there and they said, yeah, they give calls to every new customer. And so again, they just really care about your experience.
And I so, so appreciate that. So again, you guys, I know it can be a pain to switch banks or to open up new accounts, but Fairwinds, again, they make it so easy.
Plus anything that you can do at a traditional branch, you can do with them at fairwinds.org or on their app. And you'll have free access to over 33,000 ATMs.
Hey, you guys know how much I hate banks in general. And so for me to do this is a big deal.
Talk to our friends at Fairwinds and check out the combined checking and savings bundle that they created just for the Ramsey tribe. You guys, it's incredible.
Yeah, you guys, it's so easy to join Fairwinds no matter where you live. So go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey to learn more.
That's F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.
I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Jade Walshaw. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today.
She's the number one best-selling author here on the show with me, and we're answering your questions at 888-825-5225. Rex is with us in Columbus, Ohio.
Hi, Rex. How are you? Hi, Dave.
Hi, Jade. I'm doing well.
It's a pleasure to talk to you two today. You too.
What's up in your world? So I'm 27. I got married just over a year ago, bought a house shortly after.
We're on track, baby steps four, five, and six to pay off our home in about four years from now. Our first child is on the way due in five months.
And my question is one about priorities. I really want to keep paying down this house ASAP so my wife may not have a job in the future other than carrying family.
But I also want to be generous with others. And a buddy of mine went through a separation recently.
He's a hard worker, not a bum, but he started from scratch, saving up to buy a car. And I'd like to give him a beater for Christmas as a, as a way to bless him and advance his, his future.
But I worry if this is reckless financially while I still have a mortgage. What's your pregnant wife say?

I just brought this up with her yesterday, and she's mixed about it. She's more hesitant than I am, but surprisingly, she was not averse.

What's your household income?

Between $225,000 to $250,000 a year.

How much do you have in your emergency fund?

At least six months of expenses, about six months. How much do you have in your emergency return? At least six months of expenses, about six months.
How much? So I want to say it's like 30 to 35. How much are you spending on the beater? I'm thinking no more than $1,200.
Oh, I'd do it. $1,200? That's it? Yeah, that car's gone down a little bit, so I mean, they used to be impricier, even the beaters.
I mean, I'm just telling you, if I woke up in your shoes today, I would do that in two seconds. It's a very small part of your world.
That's a good point, but if I may add one more piece, I am considering a career change relatively shortly, although, again, I'm making $100K, and the rest about $125K or so is my wife. I worry about my future at this company.
I don't feel as though I'm doing a good job as I have in other roles. It doesn't seem like a good fit for me.
So you make $100K if you lost your job, $1,200 don't help you. seem like a good good fit for me so so you fear you make 100k if you lost your job 1200 bucks don't help you that's a good point yeah i mean okay for me that doesn't change it much what you're talking about is how far in the future you know what i'm saying so for me i mean if it really made you feel that weird you could say well I'm gonna I'm gonna spend twelve hundred dollars on this and then I'm gonna add an extra twelve hundred dollars to my seat like you could balance it in a weird way to make your brain feel better uh but and I think when you do that you'll realize oh this wasn't that big of a it wasn't that big of a deal what's interesting is is that this tiny little bit of stress really shined a big light on career thing.
It means you need to get off your butt and do something about that. That's a good point.
Right. You need to act on it instead of wait and let something happen to you.
Yeah. Are you concerned that when you have this baby, your wife's not going to want to go back to work after leave? I don't think that's the case.
She's working from home now, so it's relatively manageable. Okay.
But I do still want to give her the opportunity to not feel trapped in her job. I hear that.
$1,200 does not keep her from coming home. You losing your job might.
Right. So these are way different decisions.
One's $100K, one's 1.2.2 percent of 100k but kudos to you for thinking in in the way of generosity like that i love things like that it's the reason that you go through and do the baby steps so that you can do those sorts of things so really good and you yeah and also what's weird is this 10 years from now you'll forget you did it yeah it's such a Yeah, it's such a small piece. He'll remember it the rest of his life, but you won't.
I promise you, I don't remember what I have done. Yeah.
I don't. Good.
I have no idea. Bailey is in Fort Worth, Texas.
Hi, Bailey. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hi there. Thank you for taking my call.
Sure. What's up? Hi there.
So my husband and I, we have recently been binging your guys' show. Hi there.
Thank you for taking my call. Sure.
What's up? Hi there. So my husband and I, we have recently been binging here guys' show and we are preparing now with our baby step one and are about to start our baby step two.
Looking at our debt, we've made some real dumb decisions and my husband's credit cards, there are several, we have let all go into default over the last couple of years. Mine, however, are current.
I have three. And so when listing them, since we know we've gotten all the information about paying them in full, you know, settlement in full with a prepaid debit card, all that sort of stuff.
But I just don't know how to go about listing them smallest to largest since they will be a lump sum. I would do two separate.
I would do two debt snowballs, one for current debt and work it first and then work the old bad debt second. Okay, and then our car loan is actually now a personal loan from a friend.
Should that be gross? Yeah, that might. I'd want to attack that very quickly.
That's on your list of current debts, right? Right, it is just one of the larger ones because my credit cards are all relatively small. However, because it's a debt with a friend, it really is hanging over my head.
How long have you had it? How long have you had the debt with a friend? One year we've been paying and we've been, we're current, you know, we're paying them all monthly. And how long will it take you to pay off the first few things in your snowball, those few credit cards? My first three are only $10,000, so probably about five months.
What's your household income? Currently, it's at $100,000, but in the next six months, we're going to go up to $160,000. Good.
It's not going to take you that long, then. Yeah.
You better get more than $2,000 a month rolling out of $160,000, kiddo. Yeah, it's just not going to go up until February, so we are impatiently waiting.
Okay. Well, you need to go ahead and cut your eating out off the budget, too.
Have you been paying the friend or you haven't been paying the friend? We have been, yes. Okay.
What do you owe on the car? $10,000. Oh, you'll knock it out.
Yeah. It'll be gone by summer.
If it makes you feel better, just tell them, hey, we're doing this debt snowball, and we list them smallest to largest. You're number four, and our plan is to pay you off this year so that we're not running this thing out.
Yeah, you should be done with them by April or May. Yeah.
Okay, that is our hope, and then just go ahead and- No, it's not a hope. It's a math thing.
Yeah. Hey, run the math out.
Have you done the math on this to see what your projected date is? Because if you haven't, you need to jump in every dollar. You need to do your roadmap so that you know.
We have downloaded every dollar and we are using that. Okay, then that is the accountability there.
And just from somebody who's been in your shoes, you need to speak that way. Because if you run everything, if you verbalize everything as if it's, it might happen, it might not, then chances are it might not happen.
So you need to verbalize it in the way of, well, we'll be done with that in April. And then when we're done with this one in January, do you see what I'm saying? You need to use that and let that be your vocabulary, because that's going to inform what you actually do to accomplish this goal.
Yeah, how fast do we go through 20 grand, 10 in credit cards, 10 in car, making 100 bleeding into 160? Pretty stinking fast. Pretty stinking fast.
This is the Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
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That's ramsaysolutions.com slash smarttax. Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
Open phones at 888-825-5225. The old motivator from another generation, before there was a Zig Ziglar, before there was a Tony Robbins, before there was a Dave Ramsey, Earl Nightingale said, what you can conceive and believe you can achieve.
Jade, with that last call, you said the same thing to her. You need to be so dialed in on your numbers that you are speaking the future March of 2025 as if it is fact.
That's right. Because the math is telling you that it is a fact and you don't use language like I hope.
Maybe. Maybe.
Hopefully. Sort of.
Yeah. Kinda.
Tells me you haven't dialed in your numbers numbers exactly you need to get a little bit nerdy with your numbers and because here here's what really happens out there in the real world in the real world is uh almost always you will get out of debt faster than your first plan you lay out thinks you're going to. 100%.
That is so true. I remember, because some people know this, some people don't, but I used to listen to the show long before I ever got to work on the show.
And I remember you used to say, Dave, when you start working the plan intensely, you get on a moving sidewalk. It's like at the airport when you go and you can either walk normal or get on that little sidewalk and it makes you walk a little bit faster.
That is so, so true. I think you just open yourself up to opportunities when you say, I'm going to go lightning fast.
I'm willing to do whatever work it takes. Then you begin to see the opportunities around you to go faster.
Yeah. I think God just looks down and goes, oh, there's a smart one.
I think I'll help this one. Who wants to do it my way, yeah.
Yeah, they want to get out of debt? I think I'll just lift them right along here. Fly, little bird.
Yeah, that's right. And you look up and you go, oh, that's supposed to take nine months, and it took seven.
That's right. But what I was saying to you on the break, and this really does segue into every dollar, is most people have never said, I am going to do, insert specific task, and I'm going to do it in this timeframe, insert specific timeframe, and this is going to be the exact outcome.
And once you do that for the first time, and a lot of people for the first time they do that, it's when they do their every dollar budget and when they pay off their debt. Once you do that, it creates a confidence on the inside of you that, oh, I can actually do it and hold myself accountable that is it breaks open a whole new world of possibility and confidence in yourself so that alone you know like we're approaching the first of the year we're going to do the goal setting talk yeah and we always do that and it's something I've taught entree leaders for 25 years and I learned it when I was 12 years old going to these motivational seminars with my dad in the real estate business.
But I want to lose weight is not a goal. No.
I want to lose 30 pounds, okay, over 10 years, and how many times? Mm-hmm. Do you want to lose 30 pounds? Gosh, hopefully just once well I mean hello so uh okay so this is not these are still not a goal it's a wish it has to be specific it has to be measurable it has to have a time frame as soon as it has all three of those things then you will do the long division math immediately that you learned somewhere around the fourth or fifth grade hopefully and that is I want to lose 30 pounds when oh 90 days oh you mean 10 pounds a month oh you mean two and a half pounds a week oh i'm going to increase my aerobic activity my water intake and decrease my bread and sugar intake and i will lose two and a half pounds a week it's magical you don't even need oprah i mean that's how it works that is how it works because you you dialed it in but it's specific it's measurable you spoke it because it's in a certain time frame and then you know if you're not on track or not yeah and that's what really that's why that's why doing your every dollar budget works that's right because you can look at and go am i am i accomplishing what i said i was accomplishing and so yeah let's get into it this is how it, ladies and gentlemen.
So check it out. You can download Every Dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play.
Do not miss this. People who win at anything are doing that intentionally.
Winning is a series of intentional acts. David's in Fort Smith, Arkansas.
Hi, David. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hi. Hey, whatsey show hey what's up oh i got a problem my insurance company is wanting to they say it's illegal for them to insure my automobiles because i have such a low credit school i've been very wise with my money i have no bills i don't borrow a lot of money.
I don't need money. Who's your insurance

company? Who's your insurance company? Shelter Insurance. Shelter.
Okay. Yeah.
Okay. The agent

that you're talking with is either an ignoramus or a liar or both. They sent me a letter.
Oh,

okay. They're lying.
It is not illegal to issue insurance to someone with a low credit score. It might be unprofitable for them.
And here's where this comes from. The University of Florida, in conjunction with the University of Pennsylvania, 25 years ago, did a study that shows that people with low to no credit scores file more claims more often.
And so the insurance business across the board took the FICO score and used it to raise rates. But it has nothing to do with legal.
So my credit score is zero and has been for 30 years. Do you think I have trouble getting insurance?

No, but I have old automobiles.

I have a 2007, a 2014.

I have nothing new.

I have a 2011 Harley and a 2000.

I have nothing old.

Everything's got a lot of insurance on it.

You see what I'm saying?

I have nothing with full coverage insurance.

Don't need full coverage insurance. You have debt? No, I'm debt-free.
You have a zero credit score. I have a zero credit score.
Okay. Well, then what you need to do is fire your stupid insurance company, because they're stupid, and get you another one.
So go to RamseySolutions.com and click on EL for endorsed local provider. And you can find the insurance for home and auto.
It's called PNC property and casualty insurance. And those agents don't work for a single company.
They work for you. They will shop among many companies and get you the best deal.
Um, and you can decide, you know, how to do that. But it is not illegal to issue insurance on someone that has a zero credit score.
They are following a false premise, because the research that I just referenced that's 20 years old or 25 years old, was incomplete research in that it is valid in the sense that if you have bad credit because you don't pay your bills, you are more likely to file a claim and a higher claim. That does make sense because you're broke.
Now, but if you have a zero credit score, I'm not more likely to file a claim. I'm a multimillionaire.
That's dumb. I'm less likely to file a claim.
a claim that's dumb all right so obviously the research is incomplete for a guy like david or a guy like me david's got plenty of money he just drives beaters because he wants to that's what he said and that reminds me of that same um way of thinking with rental cars i feel like it's the same thing you know i just came i was leaving where was i leaving denver and i wanted to rent the car and then drop it at another airport and they said you cannot do that if you don't have a credit card and i said what's that got to do with it because of the theft yeah there's a there's entire gangs that are running debit card theft all that they're stealing these credit the size of the rental car business is unbelievable and the size of theft that they deal with is unbelievable that's what the guy was telling me that's exactly what does it so we learned that when we had dollar rent a car as a sponsor here for a while we talked them into being the world's best uh debit card only or debt they took the debit card for ramsey listeners uh-huh uh and we did that for a while and then of of course with COVID, everybody went bankrupt, uh, including Hertz that owned them. And so then they come back as dollar, dollar came back as $2 rent a car.
And, um, they got a new CEO and a new leadership team and decided they weren't going to take debit cards anymore, which means we had to take them off the air because we can't endorse them anymore. So, uh, we lost a sponsor and they lost a bunch of customers because that was stupid.
But anyway, we learned all this. They showed us the data back in the day, why it was so risky because it's, they're literally, and I'm not making this up, gangs that steal cars from rental car companies.
On debit cards. And they use a debit card to do it.
And so, and the worst one, the worst location in the world is Las Vegas, by the way.

Yeah.

But, yeah, for some reason, if you pick it up and drop it off at the same location, it's fine. Well, that's because they think they're going to get the car back at least.
So crazy. The idea that you're leaving California and never coming back is scary to them.
This is The Ramsey Show. Rachel, do you ever get these sketchy text messages that are like,

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I talk to people every day who want to know how to do better in two areas, money and relationships. That's why I'm pumped to bring the Money and Relationships tour to a city near you.
Join me and Dr. John Deloney for a night that will challenge the way you think about this stuff and possibly change how you live forever.
Starting April 21st, will be in Louisville, then on to Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City. Grab your tickets at ramsaysolutions.com slash tour before they're gone.
Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions, Casey and Jesse are on the debt-free stage.

Hey, guys.

What's up?

Hey, guys.

How are you?

Hey.

Welcome.

Where do y'all live?

Ruston, Louisiana.

Oh, fun.

Welcome to Nashville.

How much debt have you two paid off?

We have paid off $205,960.46.

I love it. How long did this take? 23 months.
Whoa, you're cooking. And what kind of income range during that two years? $110 to $140.
Wow, nice. What do y'all do for a living? I'm an equipment manager for a golf course.
Okay. And I'm a payroll administrator.
And what did you sell? An old home. These numbers don't work.
Yeah, exactly. We sold some land and a rent house nightmare.
Oh. And a lot of other things.
We sold so many things that kids thought they were next. I love it.
So what did the rent house nightmare bring? It brought $122,000. Good.
And what did the land bring? About four, not even. Okay, cool.
And what kind of debt was the $206,000? Maxed out home line of credit on the nightmare rent house. Camper, car, credit cards, phone loans, and medical bills.
Y'all were normal. Everything but student loans.
You were normal. You had it all.
Yeah. That sucks.
We had to have it all. It really did.
It was horrible. How old are you two? I am 36.
38. And how long have you been married? 17 years.
Okay, so two years ago, three years ago, you had a I'm sick of this, sick and tired of being sick and tired moment. I've had had it what happened tell us the story so I actually listened to your book a few years before our journey we were already drowning in debt and I listened to the total money makeover it was like he is so right we have got to get out of this debt we'd have so much margin in our life but I don't want to listen to your plan I want to do my plan so we you're the first person to ever do that we've raised the limit on the maxed out home line of credit and maxed it out again.
And then found ourselves in even more debt. This was the third time we consolidated our debt.
Each time we doubled the debt and didn't change habits. Go back in.
Habits changed. So two years ago, we're drowning again.
The renters hadn't paid rent in six months and we had a variable interest rate on the rent house. So the feds were going up.
So we went from $300 interest payment to $900 interest payments. Yeah, it was bad.
We couldn't do it. We literally couldn't.
So then I listened to your book again, and this time it sank in. It's okay.
My plan obviously isn't working. I had prayed numerous times, God, please increase our income so that we can get out of this.
And he said, no, I'm cutting you off. You obviously are bad stewards of my money.
You've got to learn this lesson. So then I said, let's do this.
And at the time, our marriage honestly was on the rocks. Casey was dealing with some heavy depression.
And I was like, I'm not sure how I'm going to get my spouse on board because he wanted nothing to do with the finances. I had given up.
I was was done. Well did the weight of this add to the issue with depression? Correct.
It was it was a it was a big portion of it. Okay.
A lot of it. So I did the only logical thing which is say hey I'm going to sell this gift that you bought me on credit a few years ago why don't you ride with me to make sure that I'm safe as I sell this item and I trapped him in the car listening to Total Money Makeover.
It didn't go well. He made fun of the book.
You know, it can't be that easy. It's just seven easy baby steps.
A baby could do it. It's so easy.
I was not a believer at first. You're not listening.
He says it's not easy. I like it.
I'm like, okay, I'm on my own. Give it a few days.
So when he comes home and... I'd listen to a few of the debt-free screams.
I started listening to the podcast and heard a few of them. And it was very inspiring, very emotional for me.
And I said, you know what? If these folks can do it, who some are worse off, some are not as much, but they were able to do it. I thought, why can't I? Made it real.
Yeah, it did. It finally did.
And now you're here doing that for somebody else. That's it.
That's it. Let me let me ask you a question, because I'm researching this exact thing.
There was something that when you first heard the baby steps, you had an emotion that caused you to say, I'm not going to do it exactly like they teach. I'm going to do it my way.
Casey, you had an emotion that caused you to say this guy. This is not a baby step.
This is, you know, for adults, whatever you thought. What was that emotion that caused you to initially kind of back away from it uh the the was it fear was it uh it seemed insurmountable it seemed insurmountable like this is impossible I thought I was going to live to my death working and in debt uh-huh I grew up knowing it I was in the mindset of can we afford it that's that's the culture I grew up in is not can we we afford it, can we afford the payments? That's the word.
That's how I grew up. I'm like, this can't be done.
And what about you, Jessie? What was it that caused you to say, I'm going to do it my way? This sounds good, but I'm still going to do it my way. Well, I don't want to take the time to have to go through all of this.
If I can just wipe it clean and have a $400 payment in one thing versus working and taking years. I mean, when we initially looked at the snowball calculator, we were at 2031 paying off all this debt, and we did it in 23 months.
That's right. It was just – But the snowball calculator did not include selling off everything.
Right. It did not at first.
It did not. When you plugged that in, it changed the numbers.
It did. It did.
It did. And we had – I mean, life happened uh all the plumbing busted when we had a freeze in that rent house oh my god this house is cursed it was uh the renters had destroyed it i mean flooring was gone uh there was a lot of fecal matter everywhere animals animals but uh we did have a real estate pro ramsay pro and he helped us through the whole.
And I mean, I would work at night, get off work, go to the house and clean.

And then Casey worked a ton of overtime.

We door dashed.

You gave plasma.

Yeah, yeah, sure did.

Wow.

But once you start going and I need some debt-free chart trackers as well, it just kept us motivated of knocking this out and getting ahead.

How's it feel to be free

amazing amazing it's so it's so nice i wish everyone could feel this way like it's awesome our daughter uh made homecoming court and we're like we have to go buy two dresses now and we could just afford it it was this is within the past we had margin yeah it's been so fantastic We get to buy.

Exactly, yeah.

That's so good.

Very cool. past we had margin yeah it's been so fantastic we get to buy yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah that's so good very cool and then uh the facebook group the baby steps community that y'all have really helped as well just looking through and seeing other people's stories which jg became a personality about a few months as we started and your story really helped motivate me a lot you and Sam.
I was like, okay, they have way more depth than I did. I don't feel nearly as bad.
Let's do this. Oh, I'm so glad.
So what would you say to that person who's listening? And there were you, there were you were, Casey, they're going, this is not as easy as you think it is. Jesse, they're saying, I'll do it, but I'll do it my way.
What would you say to that person? You can do it. It's not impossible.
Just start. Yeah.
Budget and start. Because if you just look at it as a whole, it is, it's overwhelming.
You're like, we're never going to get out. But if you just start and really follow the steps and start with baby step one and then start with baby step two and pay off that little debt, credit card down which is so exciting to us like now we have more money to throw with that debt that's right i mean we started at only being able to put an extra two hundred dollars a month towards this debt by the end we were throwing over three thousand dollars a month at it yeah ding ding ding ding yeah yeah and 23 months out of your 17 years was hell.
Oh, wait a minute. A lot of the other was hell, too.
Okay, okay. But this hell got you out.
That's it. You got it.
Amen. You paid a price to win.
Way to go. I'm proud of you.
Very good. All right, bring the kiddos up.
Let's get their names and ages. Looks like they survived the cutbacks.
They sure did. They sure did.
We got Emily here. She's 15.
Way to go, homecoming queen. Wade just turned 13.
I love it. I love it.
I love it. Well, this is excellent, you guys.
Proud of you all. Thank you.
Well done. Who was cheering you on? Friends and family.
Co-workers. Yeah, co-workers.
Yep, sure was. Everybody was pretty much cheering us on, especially when they heard how much we owed.
Yeah. I love that you're debt-free.
My favorite part of your story is that cloud of depression is lifted off your house.

That makes me cry.

That's a powerful story, man.

Marriage is way better.

The transformation over the past two years is unbelievable.

I mean, I had given up on our marriage practically,

but after counseling and this, I mean, we're stronger than we've ever been.

Y'all are amazing.

Well done.

All right, count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream! 3, 2, 1.
We're debt-free! Yay! Yay! 206,000 paid off in 23 months. Oh, but everything in the house is transformed.
Hello. Depression, marriage,

everything's transformed. See the debts all tied into this.
It's not a standalone subject that you

can compartmentalize. It's woven its way into your life.
It's time for you listening to get it out.

They were here to tell you that. I hope you heard it.
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Ramsey Trusted Providers have been coached and vetted to serve you like we would. Find what you need at RamseySolutions.com slash insurance.
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You can type in an email and send it to us we'll answer it here on the air we do a lot of stuff that's really fun over on the ramsey network app so be sure you check all that out ryan is with us in hartford connecticut hey ryan welcome to the ramsey show hey how are you guys sure what's up hey so i have a bit of a problem. I never thought this was going to happen.
So in 2018, my father passed away and he left me and my brother a 401k plan. Fast forward five years, I got a check in the mail this morning for about $245,000.
The original account balance was about $300,000. And what's happening is they gave me the check and I have to pay the IRS that $55,000 difference from the $300,000 and the $245,000.
I called them and asked them if they could roll it over. And they said, once they issued the check, there's nothing that can be done.
Who told them to issue the check? Not me. Apparently, the company my father worked for, I didn't either read or...
I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. You cut out.
Apparently, the company your father worked for what? Yeah, they have a five-year plan, I guess, for the death benefit, that if it's not rolled over to something else within five years, they must close the account and just issue a checkout. It's super confusing.
The way they explained it to me, I was on the phone with them for an hour and a half this morning with my 401k company, and they pretty much said once we issue the check, there's nothing that can be done. There was no workaround.
Yeah, there is. They had until this they had they had until just that's what i'm saying yeah i'm sure you don't have an extra 55 grand laying around no so the way it worked is my account balances 300 000 it started like 215 and over the years i added up to 300 they issued me a check for 245 they already took the money out and sent it to the IRS and issued me the difference.
Yeah, they have to withhold 20%. That's the rule if you take a withdrawal.
But this is an involuntary withdrawal without any contact to you or anything, which is completely at a minimum unprofessional. What caused you to wait the five years as opposed to rolling it over? Because the 401k plan my father was invested in had really good options.
Like, I built up... All of those same options exist in the open market.
Yeah, and I have my own personal investment accounts, and I do it with that as well. You know, don't rock the boat if the boat shouldn't be rocked.
So the way I figured is the 401k plan was perfectly fine. I kept it in there just because the investment options were fine.
It was just, it's a retirement account. I was treating it like a retirement account.
I wasn't going to touch it till I was 65. I'm 30 now.
Yeah. What do you like? It was, I make, I'm a truck driver.
So I make about 110,000 a year. And I also own a small business that I make about the same.
Okay. Under the SECURE Act that Biden passed, you have 10 years to liquidate the 401k completely.
You should have been liquidating it at one-tenth a year from the time the SECURE Act passed two years ago, and you've not been doing that so um i didn't know about that i know um the uh so i'm trying to figure out how that plays into this and how hardcore all right let's pretend that we figure out a way to lean on them and they cancel the check and put the money back in the 401k so that you can roll it over within 30 days, which is what they should do if they're people of integrity. This is a problem.
It's not technically unethical. It's just so nasty that it ought to be unethical.
Yeah, and it's a big investment. It's a lot of money.
It's going to cost you $20,000, $30, 000 bucks and that you don't have it cost me two years it cost me two whole years of of gains because of this no well i never thought i would be upset to get a huge check in the mail but i did and well i'm upset because i should have had it rolled over it should have been hugerer. He should have called me.
Yeah. All right.

So here's what I'm going to suggest you do.

And I don't think it'll work, but it's the only thing I can think of. All right.
Okay. Go to RamseySolutions.com and click on SmartVestor and find a SmartVestor Pro in your area that you like after talking to them on the phone.
they may be able to call on your behalf and uh talk them into undoing this and immediately rolling it and they'll help you with the rollover okay they may be able to cite uh something that a regulation or something that i'm not aware of um because this is uh when you started talking, I thought you were going to tell me this was a tiny little 401k, like a $10,000, and they were just cleaning out all the little ones. Sometimes they do that when a company sells or in the event of an inherited 401k like you've got.
But this is huge. is a lot of money and so this is and with no

notification at all this is particularly nasty and so i if they had simply notified you you could have quickly rolled it over and avoided this right and they said they notified me but i Oh, wait a minute.

You're a truck driver.

They did notify you then.

They said they did, but I never got any notification. So you've never seen evidence of them? Ask them to prove that they did.
Okay. Good idea.
I don't think you've got a basis for suing them, but I'd be tempted to. I really would.
I mean, because you're talking about $25,000 or $30,000 cost here. That is unnecessary.
$55,000 they took out. No, honey, it's the taxes on $55,000.
The $55,000 is going to be taxed, not penalized. No.
When I got my experiment, like the summary of what my original account balance was $300,000, they cut me a check for $245,000. I understand.
They took $55,000, they sent it to the federal government as tax withholding, and it's not all taxable because you're going to roll the rest of this. If you take the check in your hand and you roll it to a 401k, the only harm that's going to come to you is the taxes on the $55,000, which is going to be $15,000 or $20,000.
Oh, so I'm going to have to pay another $15,000. Honey, you haven't paid anything yet.
Okay, they withheld your money, $55,000, and sent it to the federal government. Then what you do is you file a tax return of what is actually due, and what will be actually due is not $55,000.
It'll only be the taxes on $55,000 if you take the check in your hand and put it into an IRA traditional within 60 days of rent right now. So you need to get on the phone with a SmartVestor Pro right now because at least we need to do that.
Okay, I will. So the worst case scenario, if you follow through on what I just told you, is taxes on $55,000.
Because the government has $55,000 of your money as if you're going to get taxed on the whole thing, and you're not. Okay.
Because you're going to roll the portion in your hand, which is 80% of it, into a traditional to keep you from getting taxed. You've got 60 days to do that from the time of withdrawal.
So, folks, you can pull your money out of 401K. They have to withhold 20%, but you have to put 100% into an account within 60 days to avoid

taxation. That's what the problem is.
But he can't do that because they got 55 of his money over at

the IRS now. And so if you just take the 55, then you're going to pay some taxes, but not 55.

So there we go. This is the Ramsey Show.
What up, what up?

It's Dr. John Deloney from the Dr.
John Deloney Show with some amazing news.

The latest episode of United States of Anxiety is available right now exclusively on the Ramsey Network app.

This docuseries follows real people from my show as they embark on a 90-day journey to transform their lives, and I personally walk alongside them every step of the way. Okay, now, here's a sneak peek of what the new episode is all about.
And don't forget to click the link in the show notes to download the app. What's up, Kelsey? So, I've lived with crippling anxiety for as long as I can remember.

How do I stop it from constantly coming up in different areas of my life?

What does crippling anxiety mean?

Paint me a picture of that.

All right, so you ready to jump in?

I'm ready to jump in.

We're going to check in with Kelsey.

30 days, 60 days, 90 days.

I cannot even function because I'm just crying. My mom left us when I was four.
I truly felt like for a while I had no family. She's experiencing things that really hurt a long time ago.
Tell me about this boy. He triggers me a lot.
Scared of losing Paul, scared of doing the wrong thing, scared of not being enough. It just feels like it would be exhausting to be Kelsey.
It is. Whenever somebody's playing whack-a-mole with their anxiety, when it just keeps moving, that tells me the underlying system's not okay.
How do I get my inner child out of this relationship? Because I feel like she's running the show. One of two people that's supposed to never leave took off.
I was this burden.

You're a burden, that's right.

To the one person who should carry it, all of it.

Did you ever tell that little girl that it wasn't her fault?

I don't know what to do.

Do you either have to choose to let this guy love you

or you got to choose to let this guy love you, or you got to choose to let this guy go.