Are you Stuck in the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Grind?

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of the Ken Coleman Show, is my co-host today.

Speaker 1 So in the 1860s, there was a famous poet, a lady named Sarah Hale. She was the editor of a

Speaker 1 book called Goody's Ladies Book. She pinned the famous nursery rhyme, Mary Had a Little Lamb.

Speaker 1 And for 17 years, beginning in 1846, she wrote to the President of the United States, and she was influential and known, so they would have received her letters. Plus, back then,

Speaker 1 people actually could just walk into the White House. It was a different world, of course.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 for 17 years, she would write to the President as a well-known figure, asking the president to formalize a day of Thanksgiving as a national holiday.

Speaker 1 In the middle of the Civil War, 18 months before the Civil War was to end,

Speaker 1 in 1863,

Speaker 1 Abraham Lincoln decided to do that.

Speaker 1 And his Secretary of State Seward, who wrote a lot of his speeches with Lincoln, Lincoln was known for his ability to

Speaker 1 speak, but Seward did a lot of his writing.

Speaker 1 And Seward wrote out the proclamation, and the President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln, declared that on October the 3rd, 1963, or 1863, that

Speaker 1 Thanksgiving

Speaker 1 is going to be a national holiday. Here's the proclamation.
The year that is drawing towards its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies.

Speaker 1 To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of such extraordinary a nature that they cannot fail to penetrate and even soften the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever-watchful providence of Almighty God.

Speaker 1 In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations.

Speaker 1 Order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theater of military conflict, while that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union.

Speaker 1 Needful diversions of wealth and of of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plow, the shuttle, or the ship.

Speaker 1 The axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore.

Speaker 1 Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege, and the battlefield.

Speaker 1 And the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

Speaker 1 No human counsel hath devised, nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things.

Speaker 1 They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God.

Speaker 1 who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.

Speaker 1 It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American people.

Speaker 1 I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.

Speaker 1 And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to him

Speaker 1 for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also with humble pentenance for our national perverseness and disobedience commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife.

Speaker 1 in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility, and union.

Speaker 1 In testimony whereof, I've hereto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed by President Abraham Lincoln.

Speaker 1 I read this every year, and I have for almost 30 years on Thanksgiving on this show because I'm a cornball and I love love stuff like this.

Speaker 1 And there's two things that never ceased to strike me about this, Ken. One is, I just wish we could speak like this.
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's the only time of the year I get to use the word beneficent. Yeah.
I mean, what a word. That's a great word.

Speaker 1 And the second thing is, this is the president of the United States telling the nation to say thank you to God

Speaker 1 unashamedly, straight up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's what this holiday is.

Speaker 1 Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens. Thank you, Lord.

Speaker 2 What strikes me is the third sentence of this amazing piece is he's talking about we've been in the midst of civil war, and certainly we're not experiencing that.

Speaker 2 But if we think about the last election season, then we've just come through and we've been in the midst of a cultural war,

Speaker 2 certainly a divisive season.

Speaker 2 And so I'm struck by the fact that I'm very thankful today that, as he goes on to say, order has been maintained, laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed.

Speaker 2 Now, I don't know how much harmony is going to be around the Thanksgiving table around politics this year, but we are a peaceful nation, and I think we should be grateful for that given the stakes and given the divisiveness.

Speaker 2 So I'm struck by those words that are relevant today.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's perspective. I mean, the time you look back, this lady for 17 years asked,

Speaker 1 she kept knocking on the door, knocking on the door, knocking on the door, and finally a president in the middle of the Civil War decides this is the thing. But that was

Speaker 1 Abraham Lincoln's unique spiritual position. He's square in the middle of this huge conflict and still stops and says, oh, look at all the blessings around us, and guess where they came from?

Speaker 1 So we're going to stop and be thankful for that.

Speaker 2 Thankful that he did this. And

Speaker 2 this is a great tradition that we should be thankful for as well.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 2 you know, we've been blessed mightily, this nation. When we look at the world picture, God has been good to us.

Speaker 2 And even Abraham Lincoln in a time of unbelievable torment of ripping a nation apart, family fighting against family, he was grateful for its goodness.

Speaker 2 And also, very positive as he looked forward there. A lot of positive vision he expressed.

Speaker 1 Heal the wounds of the nation.

Speaker 1 Ask the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation. It's a good word.
Yeah. It's a good word to remember right now.
That's why I do it. So what are you thankful for?

Speaker 1 That's your entry onto the show today. Yes, I'm a cornball, but it's got my name on it, so I can do what I want to with it.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America.
What are you thankful for? Joe's going to start off this hour. Joe's in Albany, New York.

Speaker 1 Joe, what are you thankful for?

Speaker 3 Hey, Dave, I am thankful for God first and my 10-year-old daughter.

Speaker 1 Awesome. What's her name?

Speaker 3 My daughter's name is Aubrey.

Speaker 1 Very cool. Very cool.
How can we help you today, sir?

Speaker 3 So I guess my question is kind of centered around God. So

Speaker 3 main question is, does God want me or us to be wealthy?

Speaker 3 I kind of wanted to ask you that because I feel like you have a pretty big business and you have ties to people who are in church. So maybe you could offer some biblical insight.

Speaker 3 That way my finances and my spiritual life can be aligned a little bit more.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, there's two ends of the spectrum

Speaker 1 in the Christian world, both of which create an inaccurate teaching of scripture.

Speaker 1 One end of the spectrum we call the prosperity gospel, that God wants you to be rich, and if you're not rich, you must not be right with God and all this kind of stuff. And that's not biblical.

Speaker 1 You can't back that up scripturally. The other end of the spectrum is that God says you have to be poor in order to be holy, and that's actually not scriptural either.

Speaker 1 That's a form of heresy called Gnosticism.

Speaker 1 So what actually happens is it's not really a spectrum between those two, but it's maybe a third point on a triangle off in a different direction.

Speaker 1 I was on a TV show with a pastor one time, and he asked me what he thought was an

Speaker 1 underhand pitched question. He said, okay for Christians to be wealthy, kind of what you said.
And I said, no, we have to all be poor.

Speaker 1 And it kind of freaked him out because he thought I was going to say, yes, it's okay to be wealthy. But my point, and then I went on and expanded.
So here's the true idea.

Speaker 1 God doesn't care

Speaker 1 if you're wealthy or if you're poor. He doesn't care.
One way or the other. All he wants is your heart.
All he wants is your worship.

Speaker 1 And if poverty gets in the way of your worship, that's a problem.

Speaker 1 If wealth gets in the way of your worship, that's a problem. And that's stated

Speaker 1 by Paul in the New Testament, as a matter of fact. I've been rich and I've been poor.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, Lord, keep me from having one or the other if it gets in the way. If you remember reading that scripture, Joe, you probably have heard that.
And so

Speaker 1 the point is, is that those of us that are people of faith, that are people of the book, believe that we don't own anything. We are merely managing it for God.
He's the owner. We're the steward is the

Speaker 1 old English word that has been Christianized because it was in the King James Version of Scripture. So we're merely a manager.
So we don't own anything. We're managing it.
And managing wealth is a...

Speaker 1 a privilege. It is a responsibility.
And it's to be managed for the good of God and for his kingdom.

Speaker 1 The first thing he says to do is to take care of your own household, feed that daughter, or you're worse than an unbeliever. It says a godly man leaves an inheritance to his children's children.

Speaker 1 And that's not necessarily just an inheritance of character.

Speaker 1 It's also an inheritance of money because Solomon built the temple, but he built the temple of God in Jerusalem with his father, David's money.

Speaker 1 David was prohibited from building the temple because of Bathsheba and his order of the murder of Uriah, but Solomon used David's inheritance to build the temple with.

Speaker 1 So a godly man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. It's fine.

Speaker 1 And of course, you don't want to leave an inheritance to your kids if they're misbehaving because you're just going to fund their misbehavior.

Speaker 1 But that's what we're talking about here. So,

Speaker 1 you know, we've taught our kids that we're managing this money for the good of our family to eat, the good of our family to enjoy some of it,

Speaker 1 to be generous with. God loves a cheerful giver, says in scripture.
So this continuous generosity.

Speaker 1 There's an indication all throughout New Testament and Old Testament to tithe, a tenth of your income, as your baseline for your generosity, offerings above that. So we've got these,

Speaker 1 we kind of got a,

Speaker 1 like we got a job when you get money and your job is to manage money and then God gives you the directions on how to do that, how to manage his money. You take care of your own household.

Speaker 1 You're generous

Speaker 1 You leave an inheritance.

Speaker 1 You stay out of debt. You build wealth.

Speaker 1 But this idea that I'm getting rich for me to be a snotty rich person, no.

Speaker 1 But are all rich people going to hell? No, that's heresy.

Speaker 1 Because anything that teaches that

Speaker 1 the blood of Jesus is not powerful enough to cover any sin is heresy.

Speaker 1 And so we're suggesting that a prostitute that comes to Jesus, a murderer that comes to Jesus can go to heaven, but a wealthy person that comes to Jesus can't.

Speaker 1 And that's what the Gnostics taught, and that's what some of these people who teach theology on Twitter think.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it ends up, you get this mixed message like you are spiritually inferior if you become successful. And yet you're not, because the Bible says the diligent prosper.
What is diligence?

Speaker 1 It's excellence in the ordinary. You're good at your job.
Do your work as unto the Lord

Speaker 1 Corinthians 3.20 or Colossians 3.23 says. And how would you do your work? You would do it wide open.
Like, I'm working for Jesus. I'm going to go crazy, man.

Speaker 1 I'm going to leave it all on the field, you know?

Speaker 1 And so, and if you're faithful with the little things, you're going to be given more to manage. If God was against wealth, why would he give you more to manage? And that's out of Jesus' own mouth.
So

Speaker 1 there's all this biblical

Speaker 1 evidence that we're not supposed to worship wealth and that wealth can be dangerous because it can become an idol.

Speaker 1 But if we can maintain the distance from it as a manager instead of an owner, if you don't say, my, my, my, my, my, instead you go, I'm holding this with an open hand.

Speaker 1 What do you want me to do with it? It's yours. And then you're managing it.
If you're faithful with the little things, you'll be given more to manage.

Speaker 1 And so then you don't have to live under this ridiculous communist left-wing guilt trip for successful people, and then they try to put a Bible spin on it, which is really hilarious.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But on the other hand,

Speaker 1 you're not better than someone else. I know some of the highest character, smartest people who are not wealthy.

Speaker 1 And that does, you know, you're not better than them if you're managing more money than they're managing. You just have more responsibility.

Speaker 1 Does that make any sense?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I didn't realize that there was two, I guess,

Speaker 3 crazy sides of each spectrum. And just knowing that God really doesn't care, it just matters where my heart is.

Speaker 1 That tells me a lot. Yeah, I mean, he wants you.
That's what he wants. He can give it.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, I always tell people, it's like, you know,

Speaker 1 people get so torqued out about this or that. Listen, you know, I'm giving money to my church.
Well, listen, if God wanted your money, he would just take it.

Speaker 1 And there'd be a greasy spot where you were sitting. I mean, you know, it's like he's not worried about the money.
You know, this is God.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, so it's, it's almost, you know, you got to think sometimes he's sitting up there, Ken, with Gabriel, just laughing at us.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And I feel like after that sermon, there's only one thing to do, and I should take an offering right now.

Speaker 2 That was really good. Three points.

Speaker 1 We should have a little bit of a music. He's almost a Baptist.

Speaker 2 I could do an altar call and a love offering at the same time. It's a rare talent, but some of us have it

Speaker 1 because of the amount of hours I've logged. Since you're kind of growing your hair out, you know, that would probably fit.
You know, you could probably... Uh-oh.

Speaker 2 Are you worried that I'm heading over to the health and wealth crowd with the longer life?

Speaker 1 I'm no, no, you keep slicking that on back there. I'm telling you.

Speaker 2 Well, it's the new toupee. I'm trying to get it figured out.

Speaker 2 The glues, it's obnoxious. You know, you got to really work it out.
But yeah, I think it's a good word, Dave. And I love that he locked on to really, I think, the simple thing.

Speaker 2 If anybody's grasping this for the first time, I think what you said in one line really captures the whole thing and that is it's about your heart so whether you have little money or you have a lot of money it's about how you view the money and uh that's just really good theology and it just it cannot be by the way that's not debatable it's it's about managing the money there's too much scripture uh that just lays it out that we're stewards of everything it gives us and so that's just a beautiful answer to that question so uh no guilt no overthinking just uh lock in on what dave said there because that's about as strong a teaching on that as as you'll get.

Speaker 1 The 1% are all going to hell. Let me scare you about that one.
Uh-oh. If you make $38,000 a year, you're in the top 1% of income earners in the world.

Speaker 1 Whoops.

Speaker 1 You're not going to make it. If you believe that toxic, Gnostic heresy, this is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Black Friday week is going strong.

Speaker 1 Going so strong, we're going to run out of stuff, I think.

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When you give away, I mean, you can give them an ugly tire.

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These are choices, right?

Speaker 1 And so thank you for doing that.

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Daryl is with us. Hey, Daryl, what's up?

Speaker 3 Hi. Thank you for taking my call.
I'm grateful for my wife, my children, and I'm grateful for his forgiveness so that I can say I'm debt-free.

Speaker 1 Hey, hey, everyone. I love it.
Good for you. All right.
Perfect answer. How can we help today?

Speaker 3 I'm calling about one of my children who got married this last year, this last summer, to someone who has not got a green card.

Speaker 3 And he's grateful for the United States because he wants to live here and make money. But she's working on getting his green card, and the paperwork to do it requires her to have

Speaker 3 a long time of wages, like over a year's worth of consistent wages. She just graduated, so she doesn't have that.

Speaker 3 It's a 10-year commitment, and they're asking us, my wife and I, to sign up for this and be a co-sponsor with him to get his green card. And we're looking at retiring in about three to four years.

Speaker 3 So we're kind of on the bubble with what to do, and we know that it's a relationship-impacting thing, too. And we thought we'd ask your advice

Speaker 1 so what is it you're promising when you do that

Speaker 3 they have to make a hundred and twenty five percent of the poverty wage and anything short of that we have to true up

Speaker 3 okay so i thought about twenty eight thousand dollars a year he has to make

Speaker 3 and i don't know if it's her and him or just him we're trying to get that clear through the uh uh immigration lawyer we just don't know

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 1 they have to file paperwork to prove that each year, I assume?

Speaker 3 He does.

Speaker 3 That's part of our questions, too, is do they come back and ask us for our wages each year? I don't know how that works yet.

Speaker 1 We're trying to figure that out. I want to know how they prove that.

Speaker 1 In other words, how tight is this,

Speaker 1 the mathematical audit on this?

Speaker 1 Or is it just like, I promised to do it, and we keep going? Then the second thing is, how long have you known the young man?

Speaker 3 It's been over a year. He's very kind-hearted.
He's very proud. He doesn't like to take money.

Speaker 1 Where does he come from? Which country?

Speaker 3 He comes from Jamaica.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Is he industrious?

Speaker 1 Ambitious? Very.

Speaker 3 Yeah, very ambitious, very industrious. He's been working under the table and he's been doing really well

Speaker 3 financially, paying his way before she even came into his life.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So if you're going to put a percentage on it, it sounds like you're going to say 90 or 95% chance he covers this and you never have to.

Speaker 3 Correct. That's my take on it, but it's that fraction of percent that my wife and I, we probably are on kind of different ends of the spectrum here.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, really what you're doing is you're betting on him. You think, Ken? That's what it sounds like.

Speaker 2 Yes, but

Speaker 2 I'm just sitting here going, and I tend to be old school on this. I mean, I think he can do this.
I mean, it has to happen. I mean, it's all in.

Speaker 2 You guys don't even really need to be in this conversation, in my opinion. I don't know what end of the spectrum you're on.

Speaker 1 They have to sign promising that he's going to do it. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 That's what the sponsorship is, if I understood you. Is that what you said, Daryl?

Speaker 1 That's correct. Yeah,

Speaker 1 if he doesn't go do it,

Speaker 1 then Daryl's got to write a check.

Speaker 2 So that's the only way. Are you positive positive of that? That the only way he can get his green card is if somebody else signs this?

Speaker 1 Correct.

Speaker 1 Positive.

Speaker 2 That's really new to me. That is a wrinkle I was unaware of.
So if that's the only way.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're looking at him.

Speaker 1 Are you willing to take this risk on him? And you know him a whole lot better than I do, obviously. Everything you've had to say about him is positive.
Sounds like a go-getter.

Speaker 1 He is. And, you know, my experience with folks from Caribbean countries is they're kind of like a Gen Z person.
They're either the best on the planet or they're the laziest on the planet.

Speaker 2 A quick clarifying question.

Speaker 2 If he were to not do this, is the option for him to go back and you not have to pay anything? Or is the U.S. government coming after you regardless because you signed the document?

Speaker 3 If he goes back, the agreement is over.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 But that means my daughter would go with him, and we don't want her to leave the country.

Speaker 1 I get it.

Speaker 2 I just, that's why I asked that clarifying question. I'm just real curious.
Where's your wife? You said opposite end of the spectrums. Give us who's on what spectrum, on which side.

Speaker 3 Well, she's really worried that we're going to get caught. We just paid our house off, so we are, you know, in baby stuff seven, and she doesn't want to have to look back and have an obligation.

Speaker 3 We understand the freedom and comfort of that green grass in the yard, and we don't don't want to be in a position where we are pulled back by something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm going to have a real strong conversation with him

Speaker 1 and her that's going to be uncomfortable. It's so strong.
Like,

Speaker 1 I'm going to kill you two if I have to write a check.

Speaker 1 You guys don't understand how pissed off I'm going to be. So I'm going to get like all up in their grill so that we set the table appropriately where now they're not only scared of the U.S.

Speaker 1 government, they're a little scared of you.

Speaker 1 All right. Got it.
And by God, then they'll go, dad told us he's going to kill us. We got to go get, you know, you better be driving Uber, man.

Speaker 1 You better be cutting some grass, cleaning some toilets, or whatever it is you got to do to make some dadgum money here.

Speaker 1 Don't tell me I'm unemployed for six months.

Speaker 1 It's not an option. Dad's going to kill us.

Speaker 1 You know, and I'm going to have a conversation that's very, very blunt and very strenuous so that I don't have to have one later.

Speaker 2 I agree, Dave. I just put myself in.

Speaker 1 But I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2 I sign it, but

Speaker 2 under the agreement that you're leaving.

Speaker 2 If you don't do what you're supposed to do, you're leaving the country. And I don't want my daughter to leave, but this is not my problem, not my financial problem.
You have to go figure it out.

Speaker 2 I just, I just, because I think it provides a safety net that I don't like. I don't like it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I understand the government.

Speaker 1 It feels like co-signing co-signing in a sense.

Speaker 1 It very much is.

Speaker 1 It's a contingent liability, and that's what his wife's worrying about. But again, it has everything to do with the quality of young man this is.

Speaker 1 And, I mean, if you smell a rat, just don't do it.

Speaker 1 Just don't do it. And maybe you're the one that breaks him up then, you know, by doing that because he's got to go back now.

Speaker 1 So I don't know, but I'm not an immigration specialist, but

Speaker 1 I would be willing to,

Speaker 1 my sons-in-law are both very industrious, very ambitious, very successful in their own right, nothing to do with me. And,

Speaker 1 you know, I could easily have bet on them in the old days and have been fine. That's true.
And so

Speaker 1 that's kind of what we're looking at here. And you're going to be fine if that's what you're dealing with.

Speaker 1 I mean, but this guy better be a stud. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 I agree because I'll look at that young man and say, now I'll take care of her. But if I have to take care of her, you're nowhere in the picture, pal.

Speaker 2 You're back in the homeland. I just don't, I don't like this.

Speaker 2 I don't like this, but I don't like a lot of things the government comes up with.

Speaker 1 Stupid idea.

Speaker 2 Pass the citizenship test and give him the dad gum green card.

Speaker 2 You know? Well, it's a whole nother issue.

Speaker 1 If he goes and joins the military, he goes away.

Speaker 1 So if he can't make the payment, he has to go join the military. That's the promise.
Oh, I like that.

Speaker 2 I can be good with that.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Well, tis the season. In a few weeks, we're going to be doing our special giving edition of The Ramsey Show, where we want to hear stories from you about how you have given generously this season.

Speaker 1 Maybe you tipped a waitress $100 or $1,000 or bought Thanksgiving dinner for a family who couldn't afford one or whatever you did.

Speaker 1 I want to hear your generosity stories, or maybe you've been on the receiving end of generosity. Someone came along and changed your life or helped you or gave you a lift.

Speaker 1 I want to hear both kinds of stories to inspire giving during this season. It's our annual giving edition.
If you want to be part of it, go to ramseysolutions.com slash ask.

Speaker 1 Put giving in the subject line. Put a little bit about your story, and our team will get in touch with you and make you one of the...

Speaker 1 One of the storytellers on our giving edition. It's coming up on December 18th.
And remember, we're celebrating living like no one else so that later you can live and give like no one else.

Speaker 1 Mary Beth's in Virginia Beach. Hey, Mary Beth, what's up?

Speaker 3 Hi, good afternoon.

Speaker 3 I am thankful

Speaker 3 for God always providing, even in the hard times.

Speaker 3 And then I'm also super thankful for you, Dave, you, Ken, and the rest of the Ramsey personalities and how you are helping people to see what the true American dream is, which is to live debt-free so that you can do what you guys do, live like no one else, but you can give like no one else.

Speaker 1 Very cool. Thank you.
How can we help today?

Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 3 I guess I'll give you the question first and then whatever details you'd like.

Speaker 3 I am trying to figure out whether we should sell our house soon,

Speaker 3 hold on to it for a couple more years,

Speaker 3 and then when we do sell it, do we rent or do we buy again?

Speaker 3 The reason is that we are including the mortgage about $440,000 in debt.

Speaker 3 Let's see.

Speaker 3 $47,000 is a HELOC

Speaker 3 and $14,700 in cars, $38,000 in credit cards and personal loans, and then $339,000 in the mortgage.

Speaker 3 My whole salary, my husband makes $6,000 a month

Speaker 3 after taxes. I am self-employed.
I make about $4,400. But then

Speaker 3 all of my $4,400 is going towards paying down debt and

Speaker 3 for estimated taxes. So my whole salary is basically going

Speaker 1 down the debt. Paying down the debt you mentioned?

Speaker 3 Yes, all of that debt.

Speaker 3 I am paying, I pay weekly on the various credit cards.

Speaker 1 So you got a $10,000 a month take-home pay?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 And are the two of you working on this together?

Speaker 3 Well, I'm definitely

Speaker 3 a Ramsey addict, and my husband is

Speaker 3 kind of hands-off the finances, and I have tried to get him involved. We've even tried to get him on the Every Dollar app.
It didn't work out.

Speaker 1 he turns his whole check over to you to do with what you will

Speaker 1 yes

Speaker 3 yes I pay down all the debt I pay all the bills

Speaker 1 and I actually have a side hustle my 4400 is okay so you have a $10,000 a month income and you need to clean up

Speaker 1 what 50 or I'm sorry

Speaker 1 about a hundred thousand about a hundred thousand dollars in debt not counting your mortgage right okay so why can't you why can't you do that in less than three years

Speaker 3 Well, I can.

Speaker 3 That's the thing. In about 32 months, 30 months, I've calculated it out.
I can get rid of everything but the mortgage.

Speaker 1 But here's the thing.

Speaker 3 If we were to move, I could wipe it all out and have $100,000

Speaker 3 to start funding our retirement because

Speaker 3 the clincher is that we have zero dollars for retirement.

Speaker 1 How old are you?

Speaker 3 I'm 58 and he's 61.

Speaker 1 Well, the clincher is in three years you're you're going to start saving for retirement.

Speaker 3 My thought, though, was, and that's why I wanted to get away from the business.

Speaker 1 Well, you're going to be homeless in here with your thought. Your thought is I want to be homeless with $100,000 in a paper bag.

Speaker 3 Well, not homeless.

Speaker 3 We'd buy another place.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and you would go back in debt.

Speaker 3 Well, but the mortgage would, if we put the $100,000 into a new place that's smaller and downsized, then the mortgage would be lower and we would have zero debt other than that and then my

Speaker 1 do you like your house

Speaker 1 um i do but it's it's a lot of work i think i think you need to keep your house and i think you need to invite your husband to carry the weight of your household with you your shoulders are tired from carrying it by yourself because he whisked and handed it all and set it on your back

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I think that's my biggest thing about

Speaker 3 pushing towards selling is because I feel overwhelmed overwhelmed by the debt. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because you're carrying the whole thing by yourself. And I think you need to invite your husband to step up and shoulder part of this weight.

Speaker 3 Oh, I wish you could sit at the dinner table with him because I have tried every which way from Sunday, and I just don't know how to get him.

Speaker 1 I would say it just like that. I'm tired of you being a wuss.

Speaker 1 I'm tired of being the only grown-up in the family that carries the weight. Thank you for handing over over your check and then me treating you like a little boy.
I'm not your mommy.

Speaker 1 I need some help carrying this.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. My wife says that similar thing last night when we're cleaning up dishes after Thanksgiving dinner.
Hey, Wuss, get in the kitchen and help me.

Speaker 1 I look like your slave over here.

Speaker 1 That ain't exactly how she said it, but that was what the look meant, right, Ken? You know her. You know the look.
There was strong inference

Speaker 1 is what I'm hearing. I mean, you just got to communicate, Nancy.
This is not a bad guy.

Speaker 1 It's just, he does not, he loves his wife, and he does not know, he does not grasp, because you've not been clear with him how much this is stressing you, because he's not emotionally carrying the responsibility of this household with you.

Speaker 1 Correct.

Speaker 1 You're tired.

Speaker 1 He needs to hear it very clearly from you. And then you guys need to roll up your sleeves together and plow right through this and keep your stinking house.
And then get your retirement started.

Speaker 1 You got 15 years to do a retirement plan. You'll be okay.
You're going to have some money for retirement. You have a paid for a house by the end.
And you keep the house.

Speaker 1 If you want to sell the house later, that's fine. But you're selling the house for the wrong reasons.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think I love being really honest with him about the stress because I think he has stress and he's unloaded all of his stress onto you because I don't think he likes talking about it.

Speaker 2 That's why I dave you so beautifully years ago when you came up with this whole plan. You got the nerd, right? And you got the spender.
And I think this is a guy who he just has zero nerd in him.

Speaker 2 And because he doesn't, there's a natural tension there. And he just shoves it over to her.
And so she has to shoulder it all.

Speaker 2 And I think if he could acknowledge, I know how I feel thinking about doing this, it's unfair that you're the only person feeling that way. And I'm stress-free.

Speaker 1 I need you to man up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he needs to learn how to deal with his own stress around talking about money.

Speaker 1 Need you to man up and help. I need you to help.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, and,

Speaker 1 you know, it took 43 years for Sharon and I to get that figure somewhere along that line. We figured out that

Speaker 1 she figured out I'm not a mind reader. She has to say it out loud.
And then, and then once she found that out, she says it pretty loud. So

Speaker 1 it's so true.

Speaker 1 But I invited it. So I would rather at least know what's going on.
If you go, okay, why are you in there throwing dishes? Oh, because I'm supposed to be helping.

Speaker 1 You should have just said that instead of breaking everything. Okay.
Right.

Speaker 1 Drop the pan 14 inches above the sink. Yeah.
What's wrong? Nothing.

Speaker 2 Nothing. Nothing.
And of course, guys aren't smart, but ladies, for just all women out there, please take this from a man.

Speaker 2 We are not the smartest people in the world, but we are not stupid. We know when something's wrong.

Speaker 1 You actually don't know what it is. We don't know what it is.

Speaker 2 So how about sparing us all and just tell us what it is?

Speaker 2 My personal favorite, Dave, I'm so grateful for Stacey's learning to work through this phrase, but I love when she says, hey, we need to go weed the lawn or we need to, it's something that she never does, but it's always, hey we need to do this and i'm sitting there going here's what i'd prefer i'd prefer that you just ask me to go do it because for that slight moment i get pissed off yeah because we know you're not i know because there's no what we you got a mouse in your pocket right like when are you going out there and pulling up weeds there's a couple in the front row there we've we've hit a nerve we've hit a nerve we've hit a nerve there's no we don't ever say we need to say we about something i mean we teach people to say about the budget yeah we need to do the budget that's allowable yeah because we are going to work on it together.

Speaker 2 It's not, yeah, that's the only way.

Speaker 1 Really, honestly, 98% of this whole thing here is

Speaker 1 in your case,

Speaker 1 Mary Beth. I would just sit down and have a real clear conversation with them, and I think that's going to take a lot of weight off your shoulders and you're going to sprint right through this

Speaker 1 and keep your house. And that's what I would do on it.

Speaker 1 Happy Thanksgiving. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show. Show.
We help people build wealth, do work that they love,

Speaker 1 and create actual, amazing relationships. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author of the book, Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host today.
Happy Thanksgiving to you, America.

Speaker 1 What are you thankful for?

Speaker 1 You got a lot.

Speaker 1 to be thankful for.

Speaker 1 You ought to really just make a list list of your blessings because it's a long list.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 1 Thanksgiving's a thing and we're so happy you're here. What are you thankful for? Nancy is with us in Tampa, Florida.
Nancy, what are you thankful for?

Speaker 3 I'm thankful for every day I still have with my husband.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's good. Cool.
So tell me your story. How can we help?

Speaker 3 Well, my husband and I have been together around nine years, married seven.

Speaker 3 There is a significant age difference. When we got married, he had five grandchildren and they kind of insisted on a premium, which I didn't mind.

Speaker 3 I had my own house, he had his own house and my own investments, his own investments.

Speaker 3 No baby.

Speaker 3 Well, about a year and a half after we got married, he got diagnosed with dementia.

Speaker 3 And I had to quit my job early and take care of him at sixty two. So I started doing my Social Security early.
I still had I have investment checks that come in from my investments, but

Speaker 3 the daughter kind of pays all the bills of Worth House, and I still took care of mine.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, I was in the middle of the year. So you have your house.
You have your old house?

Speaker 3 No, I just sold it in June.

Speaker 3 I owned it with my mother, and she was getting elderly, and she moved in with my sister. It was too much house for her after I got married.
So we sold it.

Speaker 3 And by the time we paid off the debts, start the profits, I have about $60,000 left.

Speaker 1 Okay. And so you have $60,000 there, and you have investments of how much?

Speaker 3 I have about $200,000 investments.

Speaker 1 Okay. And you're 62?

Speaker 3 I'm 62. Okay.
I'm drawing from my investment account. I get about $1,800 a month.

Speaker 3 And then I have $1,600 a month from my...

Speaker 1 And how old is your husband?

Speaker 3 He's 90.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And he's not doing well, I take it.

Speaker 3 No,

Speaker 3 I don't think there's much time left.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Very sorry. Oh, so that leaves you

Speaker 1 like his house that you're living in is in the prenup, I guess, huh?

Speaker 3 Correct. So, you know, the kids are going to sell it eventually, and I don't know what they're going to do with it.
But

Speaker 3 my question is,

Speaker 3 I live in Florida. Rent's super high.

Speaker 3 Do I try to rent? Do I try to buy something small like a manufactured home, a condo,

Speaker 3 with a small mortgage

Speaker 3 with what I've got last?

Speaker 1 Well, I would try to buy something and work towards getting it paid off. Obviously, the least expensive thing you buy, the faster you get it paid off,

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 the largest item in anyone's,

Speaker 1 not anyone, but most people's budget is housing.

Speaker 1 And if you're renting

Speaker 1 your 64 for the next 25 to 30 years, every single year of your life, your housing cost is going to go up.

Speaker 3 Correct.

Speaker 1 If you own, you're locking it down, and the only thing that goes up is taxes and insurance.

Speaker 1 And if you own and get it paid for, the largest line item in your budget is no longer the largest line item in your budget.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 from a stability standpoint in your life, I want you you to get something and get it paid off as quick as you can.

Speaker 1 And then you can live on a lot less and have a good quality life from that point forward.

Speaker 3 Nice.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, that was my question. I was debating.

Speaker 1 What did you do for a living?

Speaker 2 What were you doing in what profession were you in before all of this happened?

Speaker 3 I was a medical office manager for 20 years.

Speaker 2 Do you feel like, I mean, I hate to think too much in the future, but this is a reality. You know, do you think you can get back into that world and make a good income?

Speaker 3 I'm not 100% sure. I've got serious back issues and

Speaker 3 I've got some disabilities.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, any income you can add to the equation makes the equation run better. That's obvious, right?

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so that's something to consider.

Speaker 1 If it's not exactly that field or some some version of that field of virtual assistant.

Speaker 2 I was thinking that same thing, Dave, because Nancy, here's what we're trying to encourage you with. You've got a lot of administrative giftingness.
You're organized.

Speaker 2 You've got a lot of experience you can play with there and look at opportunities to work from home.

Speaker 2 And even if you're bringing in, you know, somewhere between $45,000 to $65,000, it's going to go a long way here as you start to move into the next chapter.

Speaker 1 So the pre-nup leaves you absolutely nothing.

Speaker 3 Pretty much, yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, now what's pretty much much mean?

Speaker 3 As far as I know, that's it. And I have like 30 days after he goes to move out.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So it covers death as well as divorce.

Speaker 3 Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.

Speaker 3 I was pretty much lived separately as far as finances go since day one. I mean, I've had my bills here to his.
When I sold my house, I paid off $30,000 in debt, I still owe $10,000.

Speaker 3 So I'm considering just go ahead and pay that off and it would leave me $50,000.

Speaker 1 But I don't want to pay it off too quickly. No, go ahead and pay it today.

Speaker 1 Okay. One less thing to worry about.
You got that 50, you've got the other 200,

Speaker 1 and you've got some ability to earn an income doing something. And

Speaker 1 those are your mathematical benefits as you walk through a very sad and tragic situation.

Speaker 1 So, hmm.

Speaker 1 So when you, you know, what it amounts to is when she signed the prenup, she felt like she was more independent than she actually is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it left her

Speaker 1 in a problem.

Speaker 1 You know, and honestly, I mean, I get the idea. I get the concept.
I don't know how wealthy her husband is.

Speaker 1 We didn't get into that.

Speaker 1 But the

Speaker 2 do you have a feeling that he's pretty wealthy? That's why it's so stringent?

Speaker 1 No, I think he was solving for

Speaker 1 the grandkids and kids raising Kane about him getting married.

Speaker 1 And he tried to get, that was his way of getting them off his back. That's what I'm guessing.
I don't know. Just kind of got that running down my spine right now.

Speaker 1 The other thing is most prenups allocate something

Speaker 1 to the person, not nothing. Right.
That's unusual. That's an unusual.

Speaker 2 Out within 30 days is stringent.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's unusual.

Speaker 1 It's unusual to get absolutely zero.

Speaker 1 And that's all, of course, based on the fact that she thought she was in better shape than she actually is financially. She's not destitute, but I mean, she's not got $2 million of her own.

Speaker 1 And she's 62. So there you go.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think you're looking at something to earn some income. I think it's going to make your life a whole lot better.

Speaker 1 It'll help you open up the next chapter of your book as well. Because

Speaker 1 you've kind of been defined by this whole thing for a while. And it's

Speaker 1 time for a second act. Act two.

Speaker 1 Click or act three. Click.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 The Ramsey question of the day is brought to you by YReFi. If you've made student loan mistakes with zeros on the end, hey, we're not judging you.
We are saying do something about it. Contact YReFi.

Speaker 1 They were created specifically for people with defaulted private student loans.

Speaker 1 If that's you, go to yrefi.com/slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y

Speaker 1 dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

Speaker 2 Today's question comes from Mary in New Mexico. My husband and I have been listening to you for 30 years.

Speaker 2 Being empty nesters now, we have found that we had to pull back the reins a little bit, went back to using an envelope for groceries. We also eliminated credit cards and mostly used cash.

Speaker 2 The one expense that my husband refuses to use cash for is golf in all caps

Speaker 2 with an exclamation point. He has been an avid golfer for 40 years, being the main breadwinner.
He feels somewhat justified in deserving to continue this hobby.

Speaker 2 He never remembers what he spent, so we're constantly having to adjust for extra money that's coming out because he changes everything at the club, and then we get an invoice.

Speaker 2 Could I please get your expert advice on dealing with this type of scenario?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 I was a member of a local club for a while.

Speaker 2 One of the things I'm very thankful for, we had a corporate membership at a great golf course here, and Stacey and I had to put this in the line item. And so

Speaker 2 he's got to put this in the budget. And if it's not going to be cash, because I understand the way these clubs do this, he knows what it costs to golf.

Speaker 2 He knows what it costs to get a cart if they're adding that in. He knows what the taxes are on that.
He also knows what it costs for a Twix at the turn or a turkey sandwich.

Speaker 1 So these are things that are all very controllable, and he's got to play ball.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, you know what it costs to play golf beyond your membership or whatever. So he's got to put that in there.

Speaker 2 And you guys got to come to an agreement on this is what we can spend as we're having to tighten up right now. He doesn't have to give up golf, but he's going to have to maybe cut back.

Speaker 2 So maybe that's rounds. Maybe it's a drink after the round, whatever it is.
He's just got to be disciplined with it. And it's pretty easy to track.

Speaker 2 He's just not wanting to do it because he's never had to. That's my take, Dave.
I don't know what you think about that.

Speaker 1 Well, there's a difference between continuing the hobby and,

Speaker 1 you know, she wants him to quit.

Speaker 1 This thing's dripping in I hate golf wife language.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the all caps give this away.

Speaker 1 He gives it away. And so, you know, there's a difference between he has a right to continue his hobby because he's the red winner.
So that's a different argument than,

Speaker 1 hey, you know, you can't buy all the expensive stuff and play. That's right.
You know, because we're having to tighten up. And so

Speaker 1 we can put a line item to this and we can manage it if he chooses to be responsible. There's a difference between choosing to be responsible and choosing to play golf.
That's right. I mean,

Speaker 1 you can be irresponsible, not bother with it, which is what he's doing. So I think step one for him, for you is not try to get him to quit.

Speaker 1 It's try to get him to rein in the additional expenses, whether you're buying food or drink or whatever he's doing while he's there. And

Speaker 1 what can we do to limit that and put a number on it that we're not going to go over?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that's very doable. It's very doable.

Speaker 1 But I think there's more going on here than the

Speaker 1 golf capital letters, all exclamation points. Right.

Speaker 1 It's pretty much I hate golf wife language. I saw it.

Speaker 1 Oh, no question about it.

Speaker 2 And in his defense, you don't walk into the golf club with your cash envelope.

Speaker 1 A lot of courses don't. I mean, if you're a member of something, they won't.
No.

Speaker 1 You have to sign. Yeah, that's exactly how it's a word of choice.
That's the only way to handle it. But it is trackable.
But that doesn't mean you can't

Speaker 1 manage what you're spending, and you should. So he needs to be responsible.
And you probably need to

Speaker 1 lighten up on the golf hating.

Speaker 1 Sarah is is in Detroit. Hi, Sarah.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 3 Hi, thank you.

Speaker 1 What's up?

Speaker 3 Well, I've got a question around an EIDL business loan that was taken out. It's an economic disaster relief loan in 2020 for a business that has since gone under due to the pandemic.

Speaker 3 I spoke with two attorneys. They both said I don't owe on the loan because it wasn't personally guaranteed and it was the name of a business that went under.

Speaker 3 But I am a Christian and I'm grateful for the blood of our Messiah. Hallelujah.

Speaker 1 And God's law seems to say

Speaker 3 God's law seems to say differently.

Speaker 3 So I'm going to negotiate with the SBA.

Speaker 3 I've been given the paperwork to do that, and I'm just wondering if you have any advice on how to negotiate, and then depending on what that number is, how I should go about paying it.

Speaker 1 You don't have the money.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 I don't have the money for the whole loan, no.

Speaker 1 But I don't have to do that. How much is the whole loan?

Speaker 1 How much is the whole loan? Okay.

Speaker 3 $25,000.

Speaker 1 All right. And

Speaker 1 $25,000.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I have $15,000. Well, actually, it's $24,000.

Speaker 3 $15,000. Okay.
My emergency fund.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, there's two or three issues. Okay.

Speaker 1 From an ethics standpoint, the government gave you money for disaster relief for your business that failed, and it's not got a personal guarantee, and you're not liable. The government forgives that.

Speaker 1 From an ethics standpoint, you are not doing anything wrong by just simply accepting the forgiveness because this is not a bank loan from a, the bank is not going to get tagged on this.

Speaker 1 If it's got an SBA label on it, the SBA is going to cover it.

Speaker 1 Because this is a government thing that

Speaker 1 is waived in this instance.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 another example would be like if you have a federally insured student loan and you become permanently disabled,

Speaker 1 The terms of those loans are they are forgiven if you're disabled.

Speaker 1 You are not under an ethical Christian obligation to pay it anyway.

Speaker 1 The term of the loan was that

Speaker 1 it's forgiven if you're disabled. The terms of the loan on this are it's not personally guaranteed because it was given to a business in the midst of

Speaker 1 a disaster relief situation. And therefore, they did not require personal guarantees because

Speaker 1 it was virtually a grant is what it was, and it didn't work, obviously. It did not turn your business around.
So

Speaker 1 I'm going to

Speaker 1 ask you to spend some time in prayer and make sure you're hearing from God, not childhood guilt,

Speaker 1 about what your Christian obligation is here.

Speaker 1 If you really feel like

Speaker 1 God is telling me to pay this, then for goodness sakes, pay it.

Speaker 1 Okay. Not really.

Speaker 1 But if you feel like, that's okay. I mean, I've been in those situations.
I've paid stuff that, you know, people look at me like I'm a nut for having gone back and paid that.

Speaker 1 But I just, I felt like God said to do it. And then other times, I don't feel any tinge of guilt at all.
I'm just done. You know, I mean,

Speaker 1 this is the deal. This is the way the deal went.
Sorry. Good luck.
And

Speaker 1 that's where this one could fall.

Speaker 1 But I never step in between someone and the Holy Spirit. That's a dangerous place to stand.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I guess I should give you a little more context. I got to a point where, you know, I was three months default because I didn't feel like I did owe it.
You know, I don't lie.

Speaker 3 I do my best to follow God's law.

Speaker 3 And I got on the phone with the SBA and I learned everything that they do and how it wasn't personally guaranteed.

Speaker 3 And it goes, my information goes to the Department of Treasury after, like, they just, right, SBA lets it go. Department of Treasury gets my information.
And then I started to feel like fear.

Speaker 3 And I know that's not of God.

Speaker 3 And then I talked to my family and I started to get advice just from other people. And

Speaker 3 yeah, then I actually suggested I called you.

Speaker 1 Well, I think you're telling me you're doing this out of an emotional guilt trip, not out of a Holy Spirit leading. I think that's what you just said.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure. But again, I'm not going to stand between you and the Holy Spirit.
If God tells you to do something, kiddo, you go do it.

Speaker 1 Dave does not get a Trump card on that. I don't get to lay down on that hand.
So you got to figure that one out. But if you're just scared, nah, it's the government.
Tell them to stick it.

Speaker 1 That's pretty easy for me. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. And we invite you to drop by and watch the show anytime.

Speaker 1 We do the show live Monday through Friday from 1 to 4 Central Time on the glass.

Speaker 1 And we usually have 50 to 200 folks coming by and eating some homemade chocolate chip cookies.

Speaker 1 great coffee all on us and they get to watch the show. In that same lobby, we put a little stage called the debt-free stage where hundreds now thousands of people have done debt-free screams.

Speaker 1 And that includes Matthew and Jody are with us today. Hey guys, happy Thanksgiving.
Hi. Hey, how are you guys doing? Better than we deserve.
Welcome. Where do you live?

Speaker 4 We live in South Bend, Indiana.

Speaker 1 Very nice. And how much debt have you paid off?

Speaker 4 We paid off $153,000 in three years.

Speaker 1 Way to go. Range of income during that time?

Speaker 4 We started at $162,000 and we ended at $192,000.

Speaker 1 Okay, very cool. And what do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 4 I'm a high school teacher. I teach history, economics, and a little course called Ramsey's Foundations and Personal Finance.

Speaker 1 Love it.

Speaker 1 And I work for a dental supply manufacturer and solutions company, and I oversee their service department. Very cool.
Very cool.

Speaker 1 All right, so Jody, how long have you been teaching foundations and personal finance?

Speaker 4 I've taught it, I think I've taught it three years,

Speaker 4 two times a year. So yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, when you're working a get out of debt journey and you're having to stand up in front of high school students, that's got to change the intensity.

Speaker 4 It does. It does.
I think it gives the kids a better perspective on this is possible. You can really do this.

Speaker 1 You shared your story with me.

Speaker 4 I've shared my story. Matthew often tells me I share too much with my students.

Speaker 1 You overshare.

Speaker 4 I overshare. They know everything.
Yeah. So I can't wait to tell them that I did my debt-free screen.

Speaker 1 Oh, make them watch it. Oh,

Speaker 1 play it in class, yeah.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. So were the students,

Speaker 1 I mean, high school students are brutal sometimes. Were they encouraging or were they messing with you or what?

Speaker 4 Very encouraging, yeah. They're super excited about this whole process.
They're very excited about the fact that we're going to be debt-free.

Speaker 4 I think they're very excited about their journey into adulthood and walking the path debt-free as well. So it's been an amazing thing.

Speaker 1 What kind of debt was the $153,000?

Speaker 4 It was our mortgage.

Speaker 1 Oh, you're weird, people. Yeah, we're really excited.
House and everything. Yeah, house and everything.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 What's the house worth?

Speaker 4 The house is probably worth, Matthew, what do you say?

Speaker 1 Conservatively, five. Okay.
Yeah. Million or a hundred? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Fortunately, we'll stick with 100. I'm just checking.
All right. It's South Bend.
I'm just checking.

Speaker 2 So I want to ask you about the students and the interaction with them.

Speaker 2 Obviously, high school kids have a lot of anxiety.

Speaker 2 And how old are these kids that you're teaching?

Speaker 1 I have all juniors and seniors. Okay.

Speaker 2 Perfect for my question. Yeah.
So that's when they're in this vice grip that culture has put on these kids to choose a college,

Speaker 2 then choose a job, and they're freaking out. They've just never seen more anxiety than this time in history in that age group.

Speaker 2 I'm curious, when they start to get it, you're teaching them the foundations.

Speaker 2 And when they start to get it, do you see the anxiety drop? as it relates to money? I'm just curious your take.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think the idea that you can walk this path debt-free, it frees them in a way that

Speaker 4 other paths don't. You know, when they think, well, I don't necessarily have to go to that big-name college and take out all this debt.

Speaker 4 I can find a different path and I can find a career I love, even if that doesn't mean going to college.

Speaker 4 I think it really opens a lot of doors for them. And the idea that maybe not college is an okay choice,

Speaker 4 that really frees them to do what they really want to do and have an amazing life

Speaker 4 debt-free.

Speaker 1 So that's very fascinating. That's some actual real common sense coming from a world-class high school teacher.
Well done. Thank you.
Very, very well done.

Speaker 1 So what got you guys plugged into this whole Ramsey thing? You decide we're going to knock out our house.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, I think so, really, it's all Matthew's fault

Speaker 4 that we found you, Dave. And so you want to tell that part of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just years ago heard you on the radio, started listening, and you reminded me of the southern preacher when I used to live down in Tennessee. And so just started listening to this guy.

Speaker 1 It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 And so asked Jodi if she would, you know, maybe read the book along with me and it was a total money makeover is is what we got into and we got gazelle intense we knocked out consumer debt very very quickly and then we went on autopilot for a little while with a 15-year mortgage and I was actually very unhappy with the work I was doing and we made the decision that I would step away from my work and we were pretty safe about it.

Speaker 1 We had a fully funded emergency fund and you know at the time economy was booming and I also was getting offers from headhunters every week. So I was like, this is great.

Speaker 1 And so on January 31st, 2020, I left my job and

Speaker 1 something happened with the entire world almost immediately after. You have the worst possible timing.

Speaker 4 Murphy, Murphy moved in fairly solidly in our house.

Speaker 1 To the whole world at that time.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it really, yeah, it really did. So, you know, so we just kind of lived in that for a couple of months.
I was obviously teaching virtually.

Speaker 4 and then we thought, okay, well, you're not getting a new job right now.

Speaker 4 So, how can we, how do we make this work? We gotten really good at budgeting. Matthew's a very good budget grocery shopper.

Speaker 1 We found that out.

Speaker 4 We ate more spam than I'd like to admit during that time.

Speaker 2 Mustard or no mustard?

Speaker 1 Mustard.

Speaker 2 I grew up on it. I had to ask.

Speaker 1 Good man.

Speaker 4 I started doing grocery delivery during the pandemic. And so we were able to pay our mortgage just with the grocery delivery that I was making.
Matthew started delivering pizzas.

Speaker 4 And, you know, we found a way to never touch our emergency fund. Matthew didn't find another job in your field until about a year.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 4 So February 2021,

Speaker 4 you got a new job. And we said, man, the only thing that stressed us during that mortgage.

Speaker 1 We're getting rid of it. Let's get it done.

Speaker 4 Let's just, let's be done with it.

Speaker 4 And so I'm the budget nerd. I'm the every dollar nerd.
I'm the one that's on the budget all the time. And Matthew started playing with the...

Speaker 1 the payoff calculator.

Speaker 1 I just, all the time, a Saturday morning, I'm looking at the Ramsey mortgage payoff calculator and like, you know, if we threw an extra this on it and threw this on it, and three years later,

Speaker 1 knocked it out. I love it.
It's a way to go. How's it feel to be free?

Speaker 4 It's absolutely amazing. Yeah.
The freedom that we have now to just do whatever we want to do is amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Take your shoes off, walk through the backyard. The grass feels different.
Yeah, as soon as yours. And

Speaker 1 yeah, it is quite a life life lesson. You've lived in front of your students.
Thank you for doing that. Yes, yeah.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 For those of you that don't know what she's talking about, we have a high school curriculum that's now been taught to almost 7 million students nationwide in almost 48% of the high schools.

Speaker 1 And we've got wonderful teachers and administrators and sponsors that pay for it to go into these schools all over America. And, of course,

Speaker 1 teachers like Jodi right here

Speaker 1 that are world-class. And we all remember teachers like Jodi that were the good teachers in high school and we all remember the teachers that sucked and that were just mailing it in.

Speaker 1 And so we always get the good ones. They're the ones that want to teach foundations because they love the idea of taking common sense to their students.
And the students like the material, don't they?

Speaker 4 They really do. And I have to say that George is their favorite.
They absolutely love George. Yeah.
So, yeah.

Speaker 1 George is our favorite, too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, how can he not be, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 They like George better than you and better than me. Oh,

Speaker 1 both in George.

Speaker 2 I've got too much of a dad vibe, so I'm not surprised by that at all. I mean, I got kids their age, so George is super cool and fun.
I love that.

Speaker 1 Well, the good news is that they actually engage, but I remember taking algebra and I'm going, what is this? Calculus, and I'm like,

Speaker 1 unless I'm an engineer, what am I going to be using this for? And I really have never run a calculus formula since the senior year in high school. I can't even spell calculus.

Speaker 1 The Pythagorean theorem doesn't come up much. Another one I can't spend.

Speaker 1 But I'll tell you what, balancing a checkbook and staying out of debt, having an emergency fund, knowing how to do a budget, that comes up every dead gum day.

Speaker 1 So you're teaching them common sense, and they know that. They do.
That's why it's popular.

Speaker 1 Way to go. I'm proud of y'all.
Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is?

Speaker 4 I think intentionality is the key. Just being focused and working the plan.

Speaker 1 Matthew and Jody, house and everything.

Speaker 1 South Bend, Indiana, $153,000 paid off in three years. Count it down.
Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Speaker 4 Three, two,

Speaker 1 one.

Speaker 1 Where do we debt-free?

Speaker 1 Yeah, baby.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's how it's done.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

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We're not going to run out, but we're watching it. Thank you.

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Audiobooks and e-books of everything, $8.

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Speaker 1 Rachel's brand new children's book that just came out last week is there. Plus the original two books.
There's three in the trilogy. All of this is there at ramseysolutions.com slash store.

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Speaker 1 Reminder that this is the last segment of the show that you hear on podcast and YouTube unless you jump over to the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 Every day, the third segment of the show is on on the Ramsey Network app, and a lot of other goodies and interviews and things, and early arrivals of early releases of things are there.

Speaker 1 It's completely free. Ramsey Network app.
You can get it in the App Store at Google Play or Apple, of course. And we want you to check it out.
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A lot going on with this app. So be sure and check it out.
It's completely free.

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Speaker 1 No salesman will call there is no upgrade there's nothing it's just there so check it out the Ramsey Network app and that's where we will go in just a few minutes in the meantime let's talk to Elise in Colorado Springs hi Elise how are you

Speaker 1 I'm good how about you better than I deserve what's up

Speaker 3 So I'm calling because I'm in babysitter two. I make $96,000 a year and have about $25,000 left in debt, which I should be debt three by June.
Good. I'm single.
Oh, thank you

Speaker 3 I'm single and a full-time student doing my master's degree in social work and have a year and a half left of that master's degree in what

Speaker 3 master master's in social work social work okay cool good for you

Speaker 3 it's gonna be great I get to start

Speaker 3 people it's gonna be awesome

Speaker 3 so my question is do I need to buy a house I currently live in an apartment do I need to buy a house and if so when would I do that and then also since I am single do I need to save the six months of emergency fund after I'm debt-free?

Speaker 3 Or should I, can I do less?

Speaker 1 No, you need the six months.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 you need the umbrella in case it storms, and that's baby step three.

Speaker 1 If you're going to buy a home, the soonest you would do that is what we call baby step three B, which is after your emergency fund is in place, you start saving for a down payment on the house.

Speaker 1 That's the soonest. There's not a requirement in the short term that anyone buy a home.

Speaker 1 I'm a strong proponent of you owning a home as a long-term issue because they go up in value and you're stabilizing the most expensive line item in your budget, which is housing.

Speaker 1 If you rent for the next 50 years, you can count on 100% of those years, the rent will go up

Speaker 1 every year.

Speaker 1 Every year.

Speaker 1 That is true. And

Speaker 1 you're going to have stress added to your life from just being displaced by a landlord deciding that they're going to sell the house or

Speaker 1 they just move you out or whatever because you're not in control because you're not the owner.

Speaker 1 So your stress level goes down, the line item and your budget stabilizes and it goes up in value and adds to your wealth building program.

Speaker 1 So there's a lot of great reasons to own a home, but there's no reason to rush into it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's the thing I'm worried about. Like, so I'm a veteran, and

Speaker 3 I and I've heard you say that the

Speaker 3 zero-down payment is a bad idea for using the first-time buying thing. So I shouldn't use my VA loan.

Speaker 1 No, no. VA loan is way more expensive than a conventional loan.

Speaker 1 Just save up a good down payment and take out a conventional 15-year fixed where the payment's no more than a fourth of your take-home pay once you're the other side of baby step three.

Speaker 1 If you want to buy.

Speaker 1 But if you're in a bunch of transition time in your life, you're finishing, you may move, finishing a master's, you might move to pick up a job in that field in a different area, and you're kind of just enjoying being single right now and all that.

Speaker 1 Hey, that's okay. I mean,

Speaker 1 if it's three or four years or something before you get around to thinking about buying, or five years, that's not the end of the world. Now, real estate prices will go up during that time,

Speaker 1 but what I'm discussing is a 10 or a 20-year decision, not a three- or a four-year decision. So,

Speaker 1 you know, I don't want you to go buy something just because you need to go buy something. Now,

Speaker 1 we don't believe that. So

Speaker 1 take your time. You know, when is the rhythm of this right for you? And it will be after you're out of debt and have the emergency fund in place before you think about anything else.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 I like that she's got her path figured out. And it's like, get through the masters, get in there, start helping people, figure out what that new life looks like.

Speaker 2 What is your income going to look like? She's going to be somewhat capped. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And so getting, I don't mind renting during that first year to two just to figure out what my professional situation is going to look like.

Speaker 1 You pay $90,000 a year with social work with a master's? I'm not aware of that.

Speaker 2 I don't think so. I don't either.
I would not have.

Speaker 1 Sounds like she's signing up for a pay cut.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it feels that way.

Speaker 2 If I'm guessing, and I'll look during the break, but if I was going to guess, I'd say the 60 to 70 range would probably top out. Yeah.
Is what my guess is. Now, that depends.

Speaker 2 If she's working for a local municipality or state government, you're going to be very much capped.

Speaker 2 If she can somehow take that master's in social work and she's in the private sector, then I think you could probably make a case for that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Garrett's in Seattle.
Hi, Garrett. How are you?

Speaker 3 Good. How are you doing today, gentlemen? Better than we deserve.

Speaker 1 Happy Thanksgiving. What are you thankful for?

Speaker 3 Definitely my family and this show.

Speaker 1 Oh, thank you. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So I'm going to be joining the Air Force next year. I'm currently on Baby Supp 2, or my family is.

Speaker 3 And I'm just trying to figure out the best way to kind of go about tackling our debts to really set ourselves up for success once I head off to officer training and make sure that my wife and kid are in a solid position to

Speaker 3 right now. I'm sitting right at about

Speaker 3 $100,000 for the family.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 How do you clear that in a year?

Speaker 3 With hard work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what do you make?

Speaker 3 Right now, I'm currently making about $72,000 a year.

Speaker 1 Okay, so where do we get 100-plus living expenses in one year?

Speaker 3 I'm sorry. I think I might have missed.

Speaker 1 I thought you said you wanted to be debt-free before you went in the Air Force one year from today.

Speaker 3 No, sorry. I'm not trying to be debt-free before I go into the Air Force.
I'm just trying to navigate kind of the best strategy

Speaker 3 because we just sold our house about a year ago, so we have a good amount of money that we're sitting on.

Speaker 1 Oh, how much are you sitting on?

Speaker 3 Right now, about $33,000.

Speaker 1 Okay, and what is the $100,000 in debt?

Speaker 3 $25,000 is for our car, and then the other remaining $75,000 is for student loans.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, sell the car.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Sell the car or use the $33 to pay it off? No, sell it.

Speaker 1 Use the $33 on the student loans and get you a $10,000, $5,000 paid-for car.

Speaker 1 Okay. You don't need to stink a car payment for one thing.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you could almost be done with the student loan, if you sold the car, that's $2,500 of the $100,000, and the rest is student loans, right?

Speaker 1 Correct. Okay, so and let's just pretend you bought a $5,000 car and you sold the $25,000 car and

Speaker 1 you throw $25,000 at the $75,000, at least $50,000 to pay off. You could almost be debt-free by the time you take officer school.
Officer school all paid for?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so officer school will be all through the Air Force, and then after that is when I'll go into my technical training and start the career.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, good for you. What are you going to be training for?

Speaker 3 Either for cybersecurity or intelligence.

Speaker 1 Excellent. Excellent.
Hey, thanks for your service to the country. Yeah, I think the more of this you have in the rearview mirror, even if it's uncomfortable, the better officer school is going to go.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's what you're asking, actually. And I agree with your

Speaker 1 principal here. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree. I think this is knock it out.
Use the baby steps the way we teach it. That snowball.
Just lean into it.

Speaker 1 You're renting and you're moving anyway to go to officer school. So that's why I sold the house.
Good stuff. Garrett, thank you for the call.
That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.