This Is Your Brain on Debt

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I am Rachel Cruz hosting this hour with my good friend and best-selling author, Dr. John Deloney.

Speaker 1 And we are answering your questions about life, money, relationships, career, anything, and everything. So give us a call at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 All right, we're going to go to the phones. And is it Torrin from Boston?

Speaker 2 Hey, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hey, guys. Thank you guys for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Is it Torin? Did I get that right?

Speaker 3 Yep, that's perfect.

Speaker 2 Awesome. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So I'm an 18-year-old, and I'm a senior in high school this year, and I wanted pretty much advice on what to tell my parents about college.

Speaker 3 I've been watching you guys for a while now, and I know the biggest thing was, you know, don't go into debt, don't take out loans if you can, try and cash flow it.

Speaker 3 So I figured I would want to go to a cheaper school. I live in Massachusetts, so it's a community college is free.
So I figured I would go there and I could transfer to a state school.

Speaker 3 where it's in 100% acceptance rate after out of the community college I want to go to. And

Speaker 3 my parents were very against this idea. They wanted me to go play a sport in college and go to a private university.
They told me that that doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was making the right decision because they don't agree with it.

Speaker 2 Are they paying for it? I went to community college. No, they're not paying for it.
Yeah, they don't get a vote then.

Speaker 3 I brought that up, but they said they're going to be kicking me out. They don't have to pay for housing.
They also take the car and my phone away.

Speaker 2 I mean, if they want to throw a grown-up temper tantrum,

Speaker 2 that's like the most babyish thing I've ever.

Speaker 1 wait yeah i want to know more why that's so that's so that's so that feels very extreme like it's one thing if your parents kind of like turn their nose up at community college because they're very educated new england like it's like oh my gosh can't believe you're gonna go to community college but to kick you out and take your car and your phone i mean that's a or if they said is there a religious element to this like uh like to go to a catholic school i don't know or like any level of like a religion conviction there

Speaker 3 No, I don't really understand why. They just said it would look bad on a resumes and I think I'm making the wrong decision.
They said I was being pretty rude about it, so I think that's why.

Speaker 2 Well, if

Speaker 2 I have no problem with the parents saying, Hey, as for me and my house, you're going to this school and we're paying for it. And if you want to go somewhere else, you're on your own.

Speaker 2 I have no problem with that at all. That happens all the time.
And if they say, Hey, in this house, we go to Harvard, and so we've created this fund, and you're going to Harvard if you get in.

Speaker 2 I have no problem with that.

Speaker 2 If they tell you, you will not go to that school that you can afford, which is free, you will go

Speaker 2 take out loans and put yourself behind for the next 15 years of your life or 20 years of your life, depending on what private school you go to.

Speaker 2 And if you don't do that, we're going to take your cell phone. We're going to take our ball and we're going to go home.
We're not playing with you anymore.

Speaker 2 That just sounds like real childish immature behavior.

Speaker 2 Because what they're doing is they're asking you to have all the skin in the game, and they're just going to sit on the sidelines and holler at you.

Speaker 3 I thought the same thing.

Speaker 1 I don't really know what their plan was for it i yeah is this out of character for them like were you shocked by this or is this like oh yeah i can see mom and dad doing this

Speaker 3 i already knew that they didn't want me living there after i was 18 they said they would help me out a little bit before it was definitely out of character uh for them to like to once they kind of like said like my mom said i keep the car my dad was very against keeping the car after that but uh were you being a jerk dude

Speaker 2 were you being an 18 year old just like a turd or were you being kind and thoughtful

Speaker 3 I will admit, for like the first like 30 minutes talked about both, I was very kind and peaceful and then I started to,

Speaker 3 I was not as nice as I should have been to them.

Speaker 2 All right. Yeah, I spent my whole career working with 18-year-olds.
Go tell your parents you're sorry.

Speaker 2 All right. Go be a respectful 18-year-old son and say, hey, I got fired up and I acted like a kid and I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 I do not want to go into debt for college. And I respect your, I respect you want your kids.
You want to be able to tell your friends that your kid graduated from this college.

Speaker 2 And I get that you don't, you don't like this.

Speaker 1 Don't say that. That's disrespectful.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 know that was me just having a little bit of a little bit of a mommy dig but like um like she wants to be able to go to bridge club and tell like well my kid is Rachel we used to call it we used to call it the uh we used to call it the soccer mom scholarship I worked at one university we would lose students

Speaker 2 um we would give somebody a half scholarship or I'm sorry our the tuition was I'm making up a number 20 grand yeah and they would go to another school that cost 50 grand but they got a $1,000 JV soccer scholarship and we would lose them which is a

Speaker 2 right,

Speaker 2 it's a $30,000 a year move, $120,000 move.

Speaker 1 To play JV soccer

Speaker 2 so that parents could be like, oh, my kid's playing on a soccer scholarship. Right.
It costs them money, like six figures, right?

Speaker 1 It's $1,000. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 But I would tell your parents your story, and then you have to make an 18-year-old decision.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and Torin, let me say this too.

Speaker 1 And John's the education nerd. He loves education, so he can maybe back me up on this.

Speaker 1 Just for perspective, so you're in Boston, and

Speaker 1 we have friends that came from that area. And the way, even the Northeast, I would say even specifically, the way they view education,

Speaker 1 there is a high

Speaker 1 regard. Like it is, it is everything.
When we come to

Speaker 2 the South, it's important.

Speaker 1 It's important, but it's not life. Like, like, there's a belief of like you can scratch and claw and start a business and be as successful as the guy that has the college degree.

Speaker 1 Like, or that, you know, I mean, whether you go to college or not, there's kind of a micro, like, just kind of get in there and you, you figure it out and you can still be successful, but it doesn't have this air about it, which I'm not saying all New Englands have that, but I, but I do think as an 18-year-old that's growing up in that environment, I mean, you're in Boston, like it's, so just know there's a world outside of that.

Speaker 1 Not that we have it right, necessarily. I'm not saying that, but, but you can be successful.
You can meet people and network outside of a college.

Speaker 1 Like there are ways to live life that is not one path of just, it has to be this prestigious education. If you don't get this, it's going to look bad on resumes.
You're never going to get a job.

Speaker 1 You're going to be homeless and you're going to die. Like, that's not the, that's not the route.
That's not right.

Speaker 1 So, just know there is, there is more to life outside of possibly the bubble in which education is talked about in your family.

Speaker 2 And for whatever it's worth, John loves it. So, just maybe he'll.
But

Speaker 2 I've got a,

Speaker 2 I think one of the most mission-minded institutions in the United States can be found inside of community colleges. And for whatever it's worth, my mom,

Speaker 2 Dr. Deloney, the first Dr.
Deloney, was my mother, who graduated in her 50s with her PhD, started at a community college as a tenured full professor, right?

Speaker 2 So you can, here's what you can do with a community college education, anything you want to.

Speaker 2 Yep. Period.

Speaker 2 Maybe you have to work harder to get job number one. Fine.
But by the way, you're going to transfer out, right?

Speaker 2 You'll go to a state school or to a private school, wherever you end up on a transfer out. Yeah, there's a

Speaker 3 yeah, there's a program called Mass Transfer and it guarantees acceptance as well as some other scholarships as long as you maintain a certain grade point average in a community college.

Speaker 2 Man, that's good.

Speaker 2 You're right on that.

Speaker 1 And you know, and for fun too, Torrin, like just run some numbers on the ROI of the private college that you'd go into debt for, average interest rate on a student loan, how long that would probably take you to pay off if you got out of school with an average, maybe an above average salary, let's say.

Speaker 1 Run those numbers out.

Speaker 1 having to repay that starting in a financial hole significantly six figures probably for this school versus getting through it debt-free, doing the free community college, working, saving up, graduating from state school, starting off, and starting to invest the moment you get your first paycheck because you're going to have money and not be in a hole.

Speaker 1 Financially, from the math perspective, who comes out ahead?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. So,

Speaker 2 especially to get started. Yeah.
And for everybody.

Speaker 1 And I'm proud of you for think outside the box, but be nice to your parents.

Speaker 2 Yeah, be respectful. Treat your parents with dignity.

Speaker 2 And for everybody, I love private schools. I've worked at multiple private schools.
I would love for my kids, like, I love private schools.

Speaker 2 I just don't like parents lobbing grenades at their kids and saying, hey, to prop us up, you go do this thing that's going to cost you 10, 20 years of your life for making us feel good.

Speaker 2 I don't like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. We are taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Up next, we have Linda in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Linda, welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. How can we help?

Speaker 4 Well, I'm retired and I get less than $2,000 a month. I can't afford rent and I don't qualify for low-income housing.

Speaker 4 How do I survive?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're in a mess, hon. How old are you?

Speaker 2 68. 68.

Speaker 1 And is the 2000 from Social Security?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 5 1905 is from Social Security.

Speaker 1 Is that in addition to the 2000, or that's included in 2000?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's included in 2000. Okay.

Speaker 1 And where are you getting the other money from?

Speaker 4 I'm in the middle of a divorce. I'm supposed to be getting

Speaker 4 pension, part of my ex-husband's pension.

Speaker 1 Okay. You're supposed to be getting it, or that's what you're getting?

Speaker 4 No, no, he's paying me. They're not paying me.

Speaker 2 Is he going to pay you, though?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Do you know when you'll know that? Like, I wonder just how long you'll be in this specific situation for.

Speaker 4 It has been a while.

Speaker 4 I'm assuming after my divorce is finalized, I will know.

Speaker 2 Okay. Linda, why are you getting divorced at 68 years old? What happened?

Speaker 5 Domestic violence.

Speaker 2 Oh, Lord. I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 Thank you.

Speaker 2 There is no easy way to say what I'm about to say, okay? Is that cool?

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you're tired of people telling you that same exact line, aren't you? Tired of lawyers telling you that and everybody telling you that, aren't you?

Speaker 3 What's that?

Speaker 2 That there's no easy way to say what I'm about to say.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 There's literally only two ways, two things you can do with money. You can spend less of it or you can make more of it.
Right.

Speaker 2 And you simply

Speaker 2 don't have enough of it coming in.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And the only path I see for you is to go find whatever work you can find, whether that's work from home on a computer, whether that's going in somewhere. That's it.

Speaker 4 I've been doing that. And right now, no one's hired me.
And everyone's doing part-time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 How much are you in the hole every month, money-wise?

Speaker 4 Surprisingly, I don't know what's going on, but I'm not actually in the hole.

Speaker 5 I don't know how it's working.

Speaker 2 Okay. How much is your rent?

Speaker 2 Or your mortgage? My mortgage is

Speaker 5 $2,400.

Speaker 1 $2,400 a month. But did you say you were only bringing in $2,000?

Speaker 4 Yes. Don't ask me how it's working.

Speaker 2 Well, I have to ask you how it's working. It's just a math problem.

Speaker 2 I know, but

Speaker 4 I'm not going down in my account. And I keep looking.

Speaker 5 Is it getting paid?

Speaker 6 Are my bills getting paid?

Speaker 2 They're all getting paid.

Speaker 2 Is your ex-husband paying them?

Speaker 4 No, I am. They're coming out of my checking account.

Speaker 1 How much money do you have in your checking account?

Speaker 4 I have in my checking and savings about $16,000.

Speaker 1 Okay, so it's just probably taking money out of that.

Speaker 1 And well, what's going to happen is that's going to dwindle pretty fast.

Speaker 2 Right, right. Exactly.

Speaker 6 I have like

Speaker 5 six months to do something.

Speaker 1 Right. That's exactly right.
Yep.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 your...

Speaker 1 mortgage is more than what you're bringing in and so that doesn't include any other utilities.

Speaker 1 So you're looking at to keep this house for that big of a mortgage payment, you're going to need to be bringing in close to nine grand a month, which I'm not sure if that's going to be possible.

Speaker 1 So I don't know for the house if you're going to be able to afford it long term in order to sustain

Speaker 1 any level of lifestyle. So are you, how much is left on the house? How much do you owe?

Speaker 4 About 275,000.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 How much equity is in the house?

Speaker 2 Let's see.

Speaker 5 Well, I think it's worth $330, $3.50,000.

Speaker 4 So what is that?

Speaker 2 $150,000. If it's worth, did you say it's worth...
No, I'm sorry. It was $75,000.

Speaker 1 That sounds right. Yeah.
Well, you owe $675,000 on it.

Speaker 2 $275,000. Oh, $275,000.
Oh, my gosh. It's worth $350,000.

Speaker 1 Okay, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay.
Yeah. I mean, I think,

Speaker 1 yeah, long-term, Linda, I'm going to say that, yeah, you're going to have to sell the house eventually here.

Speaker 1 I mean, I would do it sooner than later, honestly. I don't think it's worth

Speaker 1 the stress of what you're going to be under here after this account goes down

Speaker 1 money-wise. So I would sell it and I would find something,

Speaker 1 like a one-bedroom condo, something that you could own, but it's going to be significant, you know, if you can, find something that's...

Speaker 1 that's less than this and maybe a different part of Dallas as well.

Speaker 1 And then finding, yeah, any level of work that you can to bridge that gap. Because like what John said, I mean, there's, that's the hard part about money is there's not really emotion around it.

Speaker 1 It is, it's just, it is the math problem. And so understanding, okay, here's the money coming in, the money going out.

Speaker 1 But also my hope, Linda, number one, you're so courageous for making a decision to leave a dangerous situation and in a marriage at this age. Like I commend you for that greatly.
Like that's.

Speaker 1 That's scary. And taking that step is really difficult.
And so I'm so proud of you for that.

Speaker 1 And then I, yeah, I pray that your, the divorce, you know, comes to an end and that he'll have some of his pension that he'll be paying you to help supplement some of this income too.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And if you do, not everybody has this.
And in fact, it's getting rarer and rarer. But if you do have kids, friends, adult friends, church friends, this is the time to say, hey, I need some help.

Speaker 2 And people always tell me, I don't like asking for help or it makes me feel weird. This is the time to say, I need some help.
Will you sit down with me and help me map this thing out?

Speaker 2 Do you know a good realtor will connect you with, I'm going to connect you with one of our Ramsey financial coaches. I'm going to pay for one of the sessions.

Speaker 2 And so you can sit down and they can walk through your budget with you. And so hang on the line here.
We'll get to that. Yeah, for some pickup.
Thanks, Lelda. But here's the other thing.

Speaker 2 For everyone out there

Speaker 2 who is in what I would call a, I don't know, it's a protected class, really, but

Speaker 2 I can imagine walking in at 68 years old, not having worked and being like, I need a job. And people are going to look at you and go, yeah, no thanks, right? I wish the world wasn't that way.
It is.

Speaker 2 If you can only get a part-time job, get a part-time job and work like your life depends on it. They'll hire you, right? They will hire you.

Speaker 2 And if they don't have

Speaker 2 a full-time job available at some point, they may roll you into one that is a full-time job or call a friend or they'll be able to be a good resource for you. And actually,

Speaker 2 all you can get is one or two part-time jobs. Work them like that's all you got.
All right. And then let opportunities show up in front of you.

Speaker 1 Yep. So good.

Speaker 2 Golly, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 All right. Let's go to Facebook, John.

Speaker 1 But we don't. We have Teresa on Facebook.
All right. A social question.
She asks, what kind of side jobs did you get, should you get to start tackling debt? So this is a question we get a lot.

Speaker 1 People that are on Baby Step 2 that are trying to get out of debt.

Speaker 1 The income part of getting out is a huge, huge part of the speed of which you can get out of debt, right? I mean, like you can cut expenses, but only to a point, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, you still have to pay for things. So this extra income is really kind of the magic part of it.
But it's also difficult because it's high lift. I mean, it takes your time.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're working

Speaker 1 full-time possibly, and then you're taking some kind of side hustle.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, I have found the most lucrative ones we've seen and talked to people is like when you can have a direct connection to the customer, meaning you do tutoring, piano lessons,

Speaker 1 lawn care, house sitting, babysitting, dog sitting, dog walking.

Speaker 1 Like when you can go straight to the person, to the customer, you're usually going to get a higher rate of return per hour versus going and working a retail job or something.

Speaker 2 Or if you can work at alt hours. So you can work a full-time job and then you can drive in hours where you otherwise couldn't just go get a regular job.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's right. Yep.
Totally. And, you know.

Speaker 1 Always the, you know, the Ubers, the Lyfts, the food delivery services, a lot of those, we've, I mean, we were talking to some people on a webinar last week and people were making like $1,000, $1,500, $1,200.

Speaker 1 dollars. I mean, a lot by even just driving at night.
Um, so again, looking at those options, but finding and actually digging into the details of it.

Speaker 1 Cause I think if you're going to be doing it, you want the most ROI out of your time because all of that will be going towards debt and having the discipline to put that extra money towards paying off debt to get out of debt as quickly as possible versus spending it too.

Speaker 1 So, having that, uh,

Speaker 1 that that character quality of like, yep, I'm going to be disciplined in that and and stay true. That this extra income is going towards debt is huge.
So, all of you all,

Speaker 1 and some of you listening to this, listened to it during your side hustle. So, we always just want to applaud you and remind you that that is possible.
This debt-free journey really is.

Speaker 1 It takes a lot of hard work, but it is possible. This is the Ramsey Show.

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Speaker 1 Or again, for the giveaway to win some money, you can go to ramseysolutions.com/slash giveaway. Up next, we have Sarah in Virginia Beach.
Hey, Sarah, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 Hey. Hello, hello.
How can we help?

Speaker 6 Okay, so

Speaker 6 we got a pre-approval loan for a used car.

Speaker 6 And the pre-approval had a 7.5% interest rate.

Speaker 6 And then when we went to,

Speaker 6 when we saw the loan show up like in our account, they have the interest rate at 9.5%. And when my husband went to the bank and asked them about the change, they said that

Speaker 6 they could do whatever they wanted.

Speaker 2 Do you know what show you're calling?

Speaker 6 The pre-approval is allowed to change, but we were like, but we didn't agree to pay this, but we already have the car because we took like, it was like our bank. So we took the check from our bank.

Speaker 2 Hold on, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. Do you know what show you? I think you may have called the wrong show.
Do you know what show this is?

Speaker 2 The Ramsey show?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 We don't like Carlos.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we don't do Carlos. We'll have you probably sell the car.
Yeah, sell the car. And don't do business with crooks.

Speaker 1 Don't do business with banks. Don't go into debt.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, okay, so what's the situation, Sarah? So besides the interest rate, let's,

Speaker 1 because, yeah, we, I'm.

Speaker 2 Pre-approval is different from an actual rate.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Those are just different things.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So I'm pregnant with our fifth kid.
We're 28. And we're living on like $6,000 a month, but we fortunately live in military housing, so that makes things a little bit easier.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 6 But we were getting a car loan because my husband's been like keeping my van going for a while now. And he finally feels like he's kind of like at the end of what he can do with it.

Speaker 6 So we're worried like it's going to be, it's going to break down and we're like not going to be able to fix it. And we're not going to have a vehicle that can fit our family in it.

Speaker 6 And so we don't have any other debt.

Speaker 6 So we were like, well, if we got a car payment that's around $200, then that's not so bad because that's like the only other payment that we have besides like car insurance.

Speaker 2 So how can we help you? Sounds like you've got it. Sounds like you've got to figure it out.

Speaker 6 I was confused about the pre-approval.

Speaker 2 I thought

Speaker 2 you could explain it to us so that we don't make that mistake again because we thought like because we were pre-approved at seven and a half that like we would just yeah it's not it's not a necessarily locked-in rate at that point pre-approval just means that i i my understanding is pre-approval just says here's the floor

Speaker 1 y'all y'all y'all your credit worthiness would qualify for x give me um sarah give me kind of a little bit more of y'all's financial situation because i would love to to maybe help navigate and um you know talk through just this whole picture because i think you're a mom with you're pregnant with number five which god bless you sarah well done i have three and i feel like i have 13 kids so that's amazing um and i know that the the stress that you know just growing a family takes and a car is one of the largest purchases that you know you make as a family so i understand it's a big deal and for you guys to have transportation i i totally get that um so your your husband what what branch is he in the military

Speaker 2 He's in the Navy. The Navy.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, thanks for his service and for you as a military wife.
You guys do a lot for this country, so we really, really honor and appreciate that.

Speaker 1 So you guys are in military housing, so there's no housing expense for you guys per month? Or are you paying a little bit of something?

Speaker 6 I mean, technically, there's like we get a housing allowance, and when you live in military housing, they just, the housing gets the full housing allowance.

Speaker 1 Perfect. Yep.
So nothing's coming out of his paycheck.

Speaker 6 Yeah, we just wouldn't be able to stay under our housing allowance.

Speaker 2 Totally. Okay.

Speaker 1 And you guys make, would you you say, six grand a month?

Speaker 6 So that's like with our housing allowance.

Speaker 2 So without our housing allowance.

Speaker 6 Our housing allowance is $2,400, so it's closer to $4,000 without our housing allowance.

Speaker 2 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 1 And any money saved?

Speaker 6 We have a little bit. Yeah.
It's like five we have like five grand.

Speaker 2 Five grand.

Speaker 1 Okay. And no other debt?

Speaker 1 We have no other debt. Yeah, that's great.
That's great. And are you working at all?

Speaker 6 I I am not because for me to work, we would lose money.

Speaker 2 Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 Because we have too many kids to pay for

Speaker 2 care of them.

Speaker 1 Yep. How much was the van you guys bought?

Speaker 6 The loan on the van is $16,000.

Speaker 1 $16,000. Okay.
And how much are you going to sell the old van for?

Speaker 6 We're hoping to sell it for at least $4,000.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so what I would encourage you guys to do just as an exercise, you're probably not going to like it, but to save some of that money and continue to not owe anyone anything, I would do a lot of research on a van that's 10,000, right?

Speaker 1 It's going to be older. It may not be as great as the 16 because

Speaker 1 have you guys officially purchased the 16 or did you guys get the interest rate and now you're like, oh, gosh, have you signed off on everything?

Speaker 6 Well, we haven't signed like the promise note, but if we take,

Speaker 6 and so my husband said that we could probably take the van back to the dealership and they would just make us probably pay like a restock fee or something. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I mean, Sarah, I'll be real honest. I that's what I would do.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't mess with it. And I know the justification of it's only $200 a month.

Speaker 1 And at that point, it's not as much about the money, even though that's coming out of your $4,000.

Speaker 6 But the nine and a half interest rate, the payment is actually $270,000. We were thinking that we were going to be at like $200 a month because we expected

Speaker 2 to be seven and a half industry. Yep.
Well,

Speaker 1 the idea of going through all of this, you're going to be on baby number five.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's just so much stress, and there's something about having the peace of mind that if something were to ever happen, that you don't owe anyone anything.

Speaker 1 And getting a car from the dealership is the more expensive route versus an individual.

Speaker 1 So I do wonder if you could talk someone in that's selling an $11,000, $10,000 van to say, hey, we've got some cash and can, and we can, you know, we can buy it outright or drive the $4,000 as for five, six more months if you can, um, and just figure it out that way.

Speaker 1 But that honestly, that's as you call in Sarah, that's, that's the advice I want to give you. It's, is it's a different thinking paradigm.
I understand how you, you know, fell into this.

Speaker 1 Um, but there's something about taking on the identity of like, yeah, we're just somebody that we don't borrow money. And when you draw a hard line in the sand, then other options come into play.

Speaker 1 They have to, to, because if this band breaks down, you have to figure out, okay, what are we going to do? But if you're not borrowing money and there's a hard line, you have to get creative with it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, and I think, you know, for you, you know, working would be very difficult. I understand that.
I do know some people that are doing night stuff.

Speaker 1 You know, they're doing admin, you know, type online virtual assistant kind of things.

Speaker 1 But I mean, at this point, if I were you guys, I would scrape together what we had and said, this is, this is our budget. And this is what we have to spend on a car.

Speaker 1 And this is what we're going to spend.

Speaker 2 Yes, we're just going to have to figure it out. And again, for that pre-approval thing, they just give you a floating number.

Speaker 2 It's an approximation. This is about what it's going to be.
And then, depending on what the rates are on any given day, and they fluctuate and go up and down. And the Fed dropped some yesterday.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's just like.

Speaker 2 It's all over the place. And so, yeah.
And here's the bigger picture. The reason we tell people don't borrow money, A, is because, again, it always feels like something like this comes up.

Speaker 2 But if 70 bucks is going to be a hardship, it's going to be this big. Well, we thought it was going to be 7.9.
Now it's 9.9.

Speaker 2 Just don't play the game. Just don't play the game.
You got five kids. You have seven people in on-base housing.
It's all for peace.

Speaker 2 I'd rather have a crummy van than know no matter what's happening in our life, how many stitches, broken bones, whatever. Got to pay that bank, got to pay that bank, got to pay the bank.

Speaker 2 I just don't want to play. I don't want to play.

Speaker 1 This is The Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. The Ramsey question of the day is brought to you by YReFi.

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Speaker 1 a month with YReFi. So go to YReFi.com slash Ramsey to learn more.
That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states.

Speaker 2 All right, today's question comes from Lindsey in Ohio. My husband and I have been married for seven years, and he refuses to combine finances.

Speaker 2 I make significantly less than he does, and whenever we argue, he says I'm only with him for his money. And he accuses me of wanting to drain his accounts.
Geez.

Speaker 2 I don't have any login info for any of our bills or his bank account. Oh, God.
His mom is on his checking account.

Speaker 2 So if he died tomorrow, she could drain his funds completely while I waited for death certificates to access the funds and support our son, who is three.

Speaker 2 He, yeah, this next line doesn't surprise me at all. He recently told me he is not happy and has not been happy for a long time.

Speaker 2 I'm doing everything I can to keep my family together because I love him.

Speaker 2 I even turned down job offers recently that paid significantly more just to preserve my mental health and to not cause him more stress.

Speaker 2 If I'm being honest, I don't earn enough to afford an apartment on my own, let alone eat and pay utilities. I'm scared and heartbroken and looking for some direction.

Speaker 2 That's hard. I would stop everything that you're doing, and I would call a therapist, a marriage therapist, today, right now, and ask him if he will go with you.
He probably will not.

Speaker 2 And ask him the question, this following question at the dinner table. Are you through with our marriage?

Speaker 2 I think more people avoid that question and go for months or years with all these peripheral behaviors. Hey, mom, put my mom a check-in account.

Speaker 2 You can't have, we have all these, all these proxy wars. Sit down and say, Are you done with this marriage? And you might tell them, I'm not going to file on you.

Speaker 2 You're going to have to leave, whatever you want to, but ask that question and have a therapist already appointment already booked. That's where y'all, that's where they're at here.
Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 This is a man who's leaving this marriage and either A, doesn't have the courage to do it or hasn't sat with his attorney yet, but he is out of this relationship. And

Speaker 2 instead of doing a non-Integris thing with integrity, which I know sounds silly,

Speaker 2 he is just going to let his wife suffocate.

Speaker 1 Yep. Yep.

Speaker 2 And then blame her for the implosion.

Speaker 1 Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Man, Lindsay.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 I do feel like

Speaker 1 this feels like an extreme situation. You guys don't even have, you don't have access to money at that point of how to pay bills.

Speaker 1 I mean, you guys are living completely separate lives and the money issue and how you guys are so separate with money is the symptom of really what's going on in your marriage, which you know that.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 getting to the root cause of that, but I do want to, you know, encourage you that even in this, if it doesn't sound like it's going well.

Speaker 1 Like, I mean, it's, I don't, I mean, you never want to predict a divorce on somebody, but unless he's willing to do the work and you are too, it's not going to, nothing's going to change.

Speaker 1 But you've, you know, you've been offered money. You're offered jobs that, you know, you're getting paid significantly more, but you're turning them down to preserve your mental health.

Speaker 1 If I were you, I mean, you guys are living separate lives at this point. And

Speaker 2 you got to start making plans.

Speaker 1 I mean, I would start seeing, yeah, what's out there for me from a career standpoint to build your confidence back. Because if you're, if you're in a relationship, man or woman, right?

Speaker 1 Like, and that your partner is not reciprocating any level of unity and that's what you're craving. You love him.
I'm like, that's rejection on a daily basis. That's right.
And that erodes.

Speaker 1 I would have to say your self-confidence. And so to kind of get yourself in a spot

Speaker 1 from like a mental health standpoint, right, that's somewhat stable is going to be really important in this for you to possibly make some hard decisions.

Speaker 2 And Lindsay,

Speaker 2 probably for a long time, years,

Speaker 2 you've been trying to do things to not make him mad, to not make him sad, to not make him upset, to make sure the house is quiet, to quote unquote, not cause him stress. Stop.

Speaker 2 The source of his stress is coming from the inside out. It has nothing to do with you.
And so you're not turning down job opportunities that would keep you safe,

Speaker 2 keep food on you and your son's table, pay for an apartment if and when this guy finally leaves you, which he's telling you he's doing.

Speaker 2 You have to start making those type of plans and stop living every moment to try to not stress him out. It's never been about you.
It's always been about him.

Speaker 1 Yep. And I hate that for you.
We were just on a break and meeting all the fabulous people in the lobby watching the show, but we met with a couple that was here for our money in marriage event.

Speaker 1 And that's a theme, John, throughout that weekend and through marriage. Once I've been married 15 years, and I would say even in the last probably four-ish years to five years, did all of that click?

Speaker 1 Like what you just said, because I think for so long we live in such a way that we really do believe if I do something, it's going to affect you on a level.

Speaker 1 So I can either choose behaviors or, you know, it's up to me to make sure you're okay, right? It's, it's that way of,

Speaker 2 I can annoy my wife. I can be frustrating.
Sure. I can make her mad.
But like,

Speaker 2 I can't, I can't wake up every day and make her be okay. Yes.
Make her be whole. I don't have that kind of power.
No, no.

Speaker 1 And when you put the layer of money on top of it, for those of you listening and watching, we get the question all the time,

Speaker 1 how do I get my husband to see X, Y, and Z? How do I get my wife to see, you know, or I don't have a spouse that's working with me financially, you know, how do I get them to change?

Speaker 1 And it's the, it's the way the questions are worded and our belief that we can change someone in it.

Speaker 2 We just haven't said it the right way.

Speaker 1 That's right. Yeah.
Or if we just had that one conversation and I could just, yeah, make it, make this argument like really good, then they're going to get it.

Speaker 1 But there's something deep in the core of who we are.

Speaker 1 And again, this shows, you know, a lot about money and relationships, but it comes out in the financial aspect, meaning that when you guys are not on the same page financially,

Speaker 1 you can only bring to the table what you are feeling, what you believe, and hope that your spouse reciprocates that you're in a marriage, that they're actually listening and responding.

Speaker 1 But to the point that that is not happening, then there is the marriage issues that are really going on and it's coming out as money issues and it's marriage issues.

Speaker 2 And I say this all the time, behavior is a language. And this guy's showing you through his actions, he trusts his mom and he doesn't trust you.

Speaker 2 Right or wrong, maybe you've earned that lack of trust or maybe he just never, like, he trusts his mom and he doesn't trust you. That's a marriage fracture of the highest order.

Speaker 2 Y'all need to address that, right? When he tells you, I'm not happy. I haven't been for a long time.
That's usually coded testing the water language for, are you going to blow up? Maybe you leave.

Speaker 2 Are you not? Do you want to make this mutual kind of thing? That's just, I'm testing it out. Right.

Speaker 2 This idea that we're not going to be together.

Speaker 2 And you have to start thinking about your four walls. You have a three-year-old, right? You got to start thinking about different, different things.

Speaker 2 And I hate that for you. I hate it.
I hate it. I hate it.

Speaker 2 Yet it's where we are.

Speaker 1 It's what it is. Oh.

Speaker 1 Well, thanks so much, Lindsay, for the question. I hope that helps.
All right, let's go to John in Salt Lake City. Hey, John, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hi, thank you.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So I am

Speaker 3 currently in a straight commission sales position,

Speaker 3 been in it for somewhere 15 years or so,

Speaker 3 making about $200,000 a year currently.

Speaker 3 But the pay structure of our company is changing from straight commission to a base plus bonus model.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 The question is, or my concern is I'm in a very established market currently, so I'm I'm concerned about being able to hit those growth bonuses because there's not a whole lot of growth in my current area left, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 So the option that they have proposed to me is, well, you you could pick up additional territory in some additional states where we don't currently have market share, or you could simply go relocate to a new area with, you know, uh sky's the limit territory.

Speaker 2 So um how much how much of how much of your question, dude, is about

Speaker 2 the integrity of the people you work for?

Speaker 3 None.

Speaker 3 I'm not concerned about that. I very much like the company, respect my bosses, enjoy what I'm doing.

Speaker 3 The actual literal question is,

Speaker 3 financially, does it make sense to relocate or what I have to or do I can, which is the option, you know, on a weekly basis and be away from the family, which is not something that I want to do.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think your professional life is more than your paycheck.

Speaker 2 And so, if you need 200 grand or you need that more money to survive based on the life y'all have created, and that's what you and your wife decide, great, go knock your lights out and commute, or y'all could end up thinking about moving.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you like your life as it is and your community and your friends and your family, what y'all all do, and you can afford the pay cut, and that's the life y'all want to choose, choose that.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Live Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I am Rachel Cruz, hosting this hour with my friend and host of the Dr. John Deloney Show, John Deloney.

Speaker 1 That's like a double John Delony, John Deloney, and author of the John Deloney books.

Speaker 1 So much of your name.

Speaker 2 It was hard for my children when they were young to even say their dad's name.

Speaker 1 But give us a call at 888-825-5225, and we're going to be answering your calls on life and money. First up, we have Jim in Atlanta, Georgia.
Hey, Jim, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So my wife and I are, we're consistently up. Well, now we're up through baby step four, but we haven't bought our first home yet.

Speaker 3 So that's kind of the next thing, big ticket thing that we're looking to do.

Speaker 3 And I just, I feel like our expenses are so high, I just don't know how I'm ever going to be able to save enough in Atlanta to be able to purchase a home.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so what do you guys make in a year?

Speaker 3 Um, we make about between the two of us about a hundred grand.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And tell me about your expenses, man.

Speaker 3 Uh, so

Speaker 3 we pay two thousand dollars a month for rent.

Speaker 3 Um, probably can add another

Speaker 3 it depends because it's like usage-based, but four or five hundred dollars for utilities after that

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 3 uh we do our best with groceries it's just crazy right now um probably around

Speaker 2 eight hundred dollars a month on food do you have little ones uh no just just my wife and i and our dog how old are you i'm 26 26 so jim i i i'm gonna tell you this just because I love you, Kay.

Speaker 2 This is straight as I can, because I just don't, I think the band of 22-year-olds to 35-year-olds just wasn't told the truth. And that is, um, y'all are doing everything right.

Speaker 2 Y'all are working really hard, and you, and you can, y'all can find some other jobs, and we can talk about all that kind of stuff. But

Speaker 2 increasingly across the country, people are running into, I want to live in this city, and there are just not enough houses in this city. So, the ones that are available are outrageously expensive.

Speaker 2 They're very expensive.

Speaker 2 And so, there's a reckoning, which is,

Speaker 2 do we want to be homeowners more than we want to live in the zip code? And that's not, it's a question that none of us, I'm in my 40s.

Speaker 2 It was never a question I was prepped for.

Speaker 2 But I think the idea of we have this picture, we got married, we want to live in Atlanta, we want to be Braves fans, God help you.

Speaker 2 Like this is where our family, like this is where we want to build our life.

Speaker 2 And this ugly person that doesn't care about your wants or desires or dreams called math just said it's not going to work. And so you'll have to decide, do we want to to live in the city and rent?

Speaker 2 Or do we want to keep working really hard and begin thinking, we might, let's move to Kansas, let's move to North Dakota. I'm making up places, but I think there's a reality.

Speaker 1 We're 45 minutes outside.

Speaker 2 Yeah, where we're going to have to commute. We have to do some different things.
And

Speaker 2 I think more and more people are banging their head up against mathematical realities and it's making them insane. And I get it and it's good to be frustrated.

Speaker 2 But I think a wiser use of your energy is to begin to go, okay, then what must be true? We want to own a house that's that's ours. Awesome.
I love it.

Speaker 2 All right, let's get out a map and figure out where across the United States of America we can live and actually afford a house here. It might be Lubbock, Texas.
It might be, you know, Highland Park.

Speaker 2 Who knows? But that's hard to hear. But man, what do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 3 So I work from home.

Speaker 3 I work for a university as an academic advisor.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 My wife is a shark trainer.

Speaker 2 A shark trainer.

Speaker 3 Limited opportunities for her to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 Wait, Wait, a shark trainer, like the shark, like in the ocean? And she trains them?

Speaker 1 Yes. Like at the aquarium, the Atlanta aquarium?

Speaker 2 Yes. Correct.
Your wife is the coolest wife who has ever lived.

Speaker 2 I know. I know.

Speaker 1 Man, I wanted to be a marine biologist so bad and like do this kind of work.

Speaker 2 Man, you took a left turn. Wow.
She's a shark trainer, dude.

Speaker 2 Okay, so unbelievable. So

Speaker 2 you're going to be living by the coast, right?

Speaker 1 Or by an aquarium.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so we live in Atlanta because that's where the aquarium is okay so how much does she make a year

Speaker 3 um she makes about 48

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 okay and so you you're gonna have to ask yourself the question i've worked with academic advisors my whole life y'all don't make a bunch of money and y'all do a ton of work too i mean she works with sharks

Speaker 2 yeah you're gonna you're gonna have to ask yourself um because my guess is she is locked into this thing that's probably not a job that comes open very often you you move wherever you can get that job that's her world right yeah Okay.

Speaker 2 Then you have to ask yourself,

Speaker 2 is being an academic advisor, is that my future? Or am I using this as a springboard?

Speaker 2 Because the university is going to pay for my graduate school so I can go do this thing and do another thing and do another thing. And how quickly can you get on that wagon?

Speaker 2 Otherwise, y'all are going to be spinning your wheels, man.

Speaker 3 Well, I already have my master's.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but what do you make? 52,000? Huge.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 You make 52,000? Yeah. Okay, you can make that as a public school teacher in Atlanta too and and have summers where you can make more money.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 Like it's, it's about you saying, okay, I had this dream of being a university official. It's not going to, even if I became the head of all academic advising, I'm going to make 80 grand.

Speaker 2 And that's not going to buy you a house in a cool neighborhood in Atlanta. And so it's you reckoning with, okay, what must be true for my career?

Speaker 2 My like, yeah, and I would say, and I would say for hers too.

Speaker 1 I'm like, yeah, I mean, obviously she's gone to school to be, you know, or she's gotten levels of Rachel.

Speaker 2 She's a shark trainer. This thing is not changing, right?

Speaker 1 but that's the grown-up question though and we all that reckoning is real for people couples all across the you know the country a guy we talked to last hour it's like do i do i take this kind of pay cut to do the job i want or do i go and transfer and we move somewhere to make more money to have a different kind of lifestyle i mean it's a lifestyle question you guys are asking or i want to be a writer so bad and now chat gpt is here and so my like my market value just went in half yeah and like so do i want to keep doing this thing yeah yeah yeah and i'm not saying like just go chase money and your life is going to be okay.

Speaker 1 It's more fulfilling than that. But you guys will just have to make some hard decisions because the math has to line up.

Speaker 1 And you're right, to own a home in Atlanta, Georgia, making 100K, it's going to be really hard.

Speaker 1 And again, maybe you guys start off with a, not a single family home. Maybe it's a townhouse.
Maybe it's a condo, not in the nicest building, right? I mean, like,

Speaker 1 there's these other elements of this that you need to look into. But I think that is your next step, Jim.
I think home ownership from a financial standpoint is the wisest thing that you guys can do.

Speaker 1 You guys are out of debt. You have an emergency fund.
And for first-time home buyers, we recommend about 5% to put down and making sure that your payment is no more than 25% of your take-home pay.

Speaker 1 And so that may take you guys another two years to save and get a, you know, a good down payment to get your, to get your monthly payment in a, in a place that you want. I mean,

Speaker 1 but, but I think overall, and the beauty is you guys, you know, you don't have kids right now.

Speaker 1 You know, the work, the world is you guys, and you guys are dual income, no kids, the dinks.

Speaker 1 And you get to make decisions about your life of hey what do we want to do is this um and that can change over time but i think

Speaker 1 um that i mean the math has to work and that's the hard part of all of this and it is frustrating i mean things do cost more and um

Speaker 1 you know and and and even look at your lifestyle too jim i mean i would be curious um

Speaker 1 from that perspective i know groceries are expensive but 800 bucks for just you guys

Speaker 2 a family of five lives off of that you know some months so i i think it's i think maybe this is the magic question rachel is what's it worth what's it worth to you? Yep.

Speaker 2 And you asked that question about your two jobs.

Speaker 2 What's it worth to us? Yep. And it's about how we go out to eat.
Yes. It's the town.

Speaker 2 It is the concerts and the baseball games we go to or don't go to. It's the what is all this stuff worth are being by family, being not, what is all this worth to us?

Speaker 2 And let that dictate some of your questions. And that's, I don't know, there's a right or wrong answer for anybody on those.
That's a great point. But math doesn't care how you feel.
It just doesn't.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Jim. I hope that helps.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Well, a brand new tour just launched with Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Deloney.
And they're going to be hitting the road with the Money and Relationships tour.

Speaker 2 Be so fun. This is going to be so fun.

Speaker 1 So we do live events around Ramsey a lot. So we travel and we'll do some here at our event center.

Speaker 1 But this event specifically, it's a different one because the audience in each city gets to choose the topics, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. And you know better than any of us.
Dave and I will be on the stage together most of the night, and it will be the Wild West.

Speaker 2 And so whenever you're on stage with Dave, if you've never been on stage with Dave Ramsey, you're, you have to know what you're talking about

Speaker 1 and you just have to be ready. And you never know what's going to happen.
Never know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 And with you too, John, when we hosted Money Marriage, I was always like, with John, you hosted with John. There's like 40%.

Speaker 1 You just never know what's going to happen. You always have to leave room.
And Dave's the same way. So it's going to be a very entertaining, very fun event.

Speaker 1 So if you're in Louisville, Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, or Kansas City, they are coming to you or any surrounding areas.

Speaker 1 So to get the dates and the tickets, go to ramseysolutions.com slash tour and make sure to check it out. You guys, again, the Money and Relationships Tour with Dave Ramsey and Dr.
John Deloney.

Speaker 1 They're hitting the road.

Speaker 2 And let me tell you, when we were sitting around Dave's table talking about like what we were going to talk about, we got to laughing so hard.

Speaker 2 And I thought, if we're laughing this hard in here, it's going to be wheels off. It'll be wheels off.
If you think you know what a Ramsey event is, show up. It'll be a blast.

Speaker 1 It's so fun. So, so fun.
All right. Next up, we have Matthew and West Palm Beach.
Hey, Matthew, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 Thank you. I appreciate it.
How are you guys doing?

Speaker 1 We're doing well.

Speaker 2 How can we help?

Speaker 3 Fantastic. So I have a quick question.
So my wife and I are expecting our first child in December.

Speaker 1 Congratulations, Sue.

Speaker 2 I appreciate that. Christmas kid.
She's real pregnant. Christmas baby.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she is very pregnant.

Speaker 2 You get any baby John?

Speaker 3 We are not.

Speaker 2 It's a girl. It's a girl.
So

Speaker 2 Rachel.

Speaker 2 She feels right.

Speaker 1 You know, like in the 80s, Rachel Nicole.

Speaker 2 You know, Rachel or Nicole.

Speaker 3 I love that. But yeah, so we are trying to figure out what our work life is going to look like.
Just a little bit of context. I own two small businesses.
I work from home, very flexible life.

Speaker 3 My wife works a normal nine-to-five job that she's not thrilled with.

Speaker 3 So I think it's a really good time for her to kind of take a break, take a little reset and kind of see how everything goes and then, you know, jump back into work if she feels like she wants to.

Speaker 3 And so if she doesn't feel the same way, we're kind of going back and forth about it.

Speaker 2 She goes, she goes,

Speaker 3 call the Ramsey show. I dare you, get on the Ramsey show.
So I'm like, you know what?

Speaker 2 I will get on the Ramsey show.

Speaker 2 Okay, Matthew.

Speaker 1 Does she want to work?

Speaker 2 Yes. Does she want to work? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So she

Speaker 3 wants to work. She's been working since she was 14, but she doesn't love what she does.
So I just think it's just a good time in our life.

Speaker 3 I think we're really set up where she's able to take a small break if she, you know, and then jump back in if she wants to go back to work. All right, hold on.

Speaker 2 There's something beneath that, though.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You either need to have the courage to say,

Speaker 2 I always had this picture that the woman I married would be a stay-at-home mom,

Speaker 2 or

Speaker 2 I've been married to you for this many years, three years, five years, seven years, and you hate your job.

Speaker 2 And that, that, I want to see you smile again.

Speaker 2 That's underneath the, hey, you know what, I think it's a good time for you to take a break. That's like when someone's like, oh, are you going to have another cheeseburger, huh? Right?

Speaker 1 You're going back to

Speaker 2 it's a, it's a, it's a proxy war for the truth. And she might be saying, you know, I just, I've been working since I was 14.
That might be her saying, I, I'm nervous about your two small businesses.

Speaker 1 And or my dad told me I didn't have any worth unless I was gonna say, or I've been working since I was 14 and all I know is to produce and not to produce anymore.

Speaker 2 I don't know who I would be.

Speaker 2 And so it's, it's getting beneath that saying,

Speaker 2 here's a map financially where we're going to be okay. I want you to know that I love you more than life itself and you can't earn that anymore.

Speaker 2 Right. And maybe that's the conversation to have.

Speaker 2 Or if you want to keep working, I want you to work in a job that brings you joy and makes you feel like you have purpose and not something you hate every day.

Speaker 2 Because I'm scared to have that kind of poison in in the house with a with a newborn

Speaker 3 thousand percent. I mean, you hit the nail on the head, and it definitely stems from you know, her mom was a was a was a breadwinner of her family, and so she's used to that.

Speaker 3 Used to the, you know, the woman working in the home where I came from a household, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and that's kind of what I'm used to.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 3 but yeah, I mean, if she wants to go back to work, obviously, I would not make her, you know, not work.

Speaker 3 Obviously, she's, you know, she could do whatever she wants, and we could obviously use any income we can get, but I just feel like you want her to be the healthiest version of her.

Speaker 1 And that's

Speaker 1 not going to a job she hates and/or you know, fighting her own demons of, gosh,

Speaker 1 do I have value if I'm not producing? Or what, or I'm fearful that you're not going to make enough money. I mean, whatever that motivation is for her to work

Speaker 1 is important to get to because it, because it, or it simply is D, she just enjoys it. Yeah, going to a job you hate, we don't want that long term for anybody out there.

Speaker 1 Um, but maybe it's like, yeah, I still, because I know some women, I mean, and they're,

Speaker 1 they can't stand being at home. They're just like, oh my gosh, like I, I function so much better.
I'm a better mom if, you know,

Speaker 1 being working or whatever it may be. Right.
And then also, no, Matthew, you guys are first-time parents.

Speaker 1 Leave your hand open to a lot that can happen because the moment that baby is born, it changes your world unlike anything you can ever explain to someone. So

Speaker 1 her viewpoint may change, your viewpoint may change. I mean, you just, you never know until that baby's here because I don't know.

Speaker 2 I always tell new parents, take every major decision three months at a time.

Speaker 2 Okay. Give yourself 90 days to be like, I'm going full stay at home.

Speaker 2 And then y'all recalibrate, put it on the calendar.

Speaker 1 Does she have a good maternity leave and everything with her? And insurance? Like, how, from a corporate standpoint, is she.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she does get three months off.

Speaker 2 She gets three months off.

Speaker 3 We do have that three-month window. And yeah, so I mean, like you said, the 90 days, that makes a lot of sense.
So maybe she could stay home, the leave, see how it goes.

Speaker 3 You know, know, but just talking to peers and friends, they're all just like, I wish I had so much more time with our, you know, with my baby.

Speaker 3 And I feel like we're in a position to take advantage of that. And I know how important time is that.

Speaker 2 I know, but you keep using we. Don't put your story onto hers.
Y'all need to have the conversation about, because both of y'all have been saying, we're going to have a baby.

Speaker 2 And she had a picture of what that meant. And it's informed largely by her childhood.
You had a picture of what that meant. And that was largely informed by your childhood.

Speaker 2 Y'all need to now do the hard work, which can also be really fun if you approach it with curiosity, which is,

Speaker 2 oh, here was my picture of having a baby. And here was my picture of having a baby.
Now let's create one that's going to include both of our pictures so that we're both on the same page.

Speaker 2 Otherwise, she goes back to work and you have

Speaker 2 this building resentment in your guts that your wife abandoned your kid.

Speaker 2 Or she just feels forced to stay home and she starts to resent you because she feels miserable in her house. She feels trapped and lonely in in her house.
And she really liked the idea of working.

Speaker 2 It brought her a fuller picture of herself. And you stole that from her, right? So let's make sure we avoid that and just call out at the beginning.
No judging the pictures. No judging the pictures.

Speaker 2 Let's just be curious about them. Oh, man, you thought I was going to be a stay-at-home mom.
How long have you known me? 10 years? Yeah, I just, I loved how my mom was able to do this, this, and this.

Speaker 2 Oh, I love seeing a picture of my mom working really hard and coming home with projects. And so

Speaker 2 explore that together and then come up with a 90-day plan or a 180-day plan, a six-month plan, and then promise each other, put on the calendar and we'll reassess it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And I'll tell you, I have had some of the most gangster co-workers ever who were women who had babies and they were going to be back in the office the day after the birth and they never came back.

Speaker 2 And they're awesome. And they're like, did I help my baby? And they were like, I ain't going back to your stupid, whatever you dumb boys are doing at the dumb boardroom table.
And then I've met

Speaker 2 the exact opposite. I'm going to be a stay-at-home.
I'm going to be a stay-at-home. And they have that baby.
And six months in, they're like, get

Speaker 2 out of here. Totally.
So

Speaker 2 just keep your hands open and make sure y'all have the conversation on a regular basis together because it's going to evolve and shift and change.

Speaker 3 Okay. So just keep it fluid.
You know, obviously keep communication up. See how the leave goes.

Speaker 2 But don't use proxy wars.

Speaker 1 Don't use proxy. And I'll just say as a woman who works, and I came back two weeks early from maternity leave with my first because I was that.
I was like, oh my gosh, I just, and I love my job.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I miss it. I miss being with people.
And, you know, so I actually that versus my third, I actually pulled way back.

Speaker 2 You're still not back.

Speaker 2 I'm totally kidding, Michael. I'm just being ridiculous.

Speaker 1 I am working. No, but

Speaker 1 so, you know, I think for women, it can feel like I can't take an off ramp, especially in the corporate world. And when I hear this from friends, like, if I get off the exit, I can't get back on.

Speaker 1 That's how it feels, but you can. Don't limit yourself.
Don't have those binders because when you don't have other options, you make bad decisions out of fear and out of what could be.

Speaker 1 Take that off the table too. The sky's the limit.
So always remember that. And that's more for her, Matthew, not for you.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 We broadcast this show live every day from one to four, right outside of Nashville, Tennessee. And it's played on podcasts and YouTube.

Speaker 1 And it's always fun because the way we built the studio when we moved into the new building is

Speaker 1 it's right in the lobby. The studio is with a big glass wall.
And people come from all over, and we meet people during the breaks from all over the country.

Speaker 1 We had people from Oregon, California, and Florida. And in the lobby as well, there is a debt-free stage.
And we have Ryan and Jonna standing on that today. Welcome, you guys.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Well, congratulations. You're on that stage for one reason and one reason only: because you are debt-free.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Congratulations. So, how much debt did you guys pay off?

Speaker 2 $198,000. Wow.

Speaker 1 How much money were you making during that time?

Speaker 2 We started at $94,000 and ended about $207,000.

Speaker 1 Okay. And then how long did that take you?

Speaker 2 It took us a little over seven years. Okay.

Speaker 1 And what was the almost 200K of debt? What was that?

Speaker 2 It was our house. Yeah.
It was

Speaker 1 the house. Completely.
Look at it. It was beautiful.

Speaker 1 Completely debt-free.

Speaker 2 It's a Brad House, man.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, it's a very California-looking house, and you guys are from Sacramento.

Speaker 2 We're a little north of Sacramento, two hours north, Cottonwood.

Speaker 1 Having a paid-off California home feels impossible, is what it seems like. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Incredible. What's it worth, about $7 million?

Speaker 2 We wish, no. Probably about $4 or $50.

Speaker 2 Wow, amazing. Great show.
So, how did you double your income?

Speaker 2 God blessed us in a lot of different ways. And

Speaker 2 I made a small career change

Speaker 2 about 10 years ago and I've just kind of slowly he's opened all these doors for me and

Speaker 2 he's just kind of plugged along the same way and he's what do you guys do

Speaker 2 I'm a director for County Office of Education okay I work in the field petroleum industry okay amazing you guys okay so what happened seven years ago to start this journey of paying off your house which is wild it is wild she came home one day and she's like hey we're gonna start this day ramsey thing and i'm like okay, I've heard of him on the AM radio.

Speaker 2 And I was like, okay, let's do it. You know, we always kind of knew that debt was dumb.
And

Speaker 2 we just started. And we one, two, and three was pretty quick.
And base steps one, two, and three. And then we just kept rocking and rolling.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You always talk about gazelle intensity, and for us, it was like we had a little savings, so we just kind of

Speaker 2 paid a chunk off. We had a little credit card we paid that off and then built up our savings and

Speaker 2 we're more of the tortoise yes the low slow uh-huh you know get it done yes um we I love spreadsheets so

Speaker 1 I'm the nerd well especially with the house and the and the interest rate and stuff when you start to see oh my gosh if we can cut this down how much you're saving even in just interest it's motivating exactly absolutely but we kind of saved alongside of that we had a goal of paying it off and then starting a remodel.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Those plans changed when we paid off our mortgage on a Friday. And the follow, like two days later, his car blew up.
And then three days later, my car blew up. Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 So thankfully, mine was covered under a recall, so that was all fine. But we ended up having to write a check for a new car, which thankfully we had.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 A used new car. A used, yeah, new to us.
Need to you. New to us.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Incredible. I don't know.
It just feels like God has laid this path for us. And, you know, because of the principles we've learned, it's just, you know, we've had very little stress.

Speaker 2 Things come up, and we just go, oh, you know, okay.

Speaker 2 Move along.

Speaker 1 So. Yeah.
So during that time, when we talk about baby step two, paying off consumer debt, that gazelle intensity, and it's just like scorched earth. You're going all in.

Speaker 1 But when you get to where you guys were, baby steps four, five, and six, we say it's more intentional, right? There's going to be, it's a longer game, right? Seven years,

Speaker 1 which is faster than the average baby steps millionaire that pays it off in nine. So you guys, you had some intensity.

Speaker 1 So what would you say percentage-wise was like, we're going to throw as much as we can at the house and we're sacrificing some stuff over here versus like, oh, we still had a life and we still enjoyed things and did stuff with our family, but then had extra that we put towards the house.

Speaker 1 What was kind of the balance for you guys?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I feel like we did.
I mean, we definitely lived not bare bones, but we were pretty frugal going through the whole thing.

Speaker 2 But anytime we would get a raise, we would just take it and kind of, I joke with my coworkers that I finally get a paycheck

Speaker 2 because it's like it's felt, you know, like we've been working towards this goal for so long. And so now it feels a little surreal.
We don't know what to do with ourselves.

Speaker 2 How long ago did you pay it off?

Speaker 2 We paid it off.

Speaker 2 We were planning November 1st and we were sitting at football practice one day and we looked at each other and went, we're tired of this. And so we just said, we're going to pay it off tomorrow.

Speaker 2 So we paid it off in September instead. So you've had one, if not two months, of both of your checks depositing, and they're just sitting there.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It feels really weird.

Speaker 2 That's so long.

Speaker 2 You know, the nerd in me, I have spreadsheets built for the next year and a half. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can't, you know, like, it just feels crazy.
It feels really crazy.

Speaker 2 So what's it like for you? I'm assuming you're not the spreadsheeter. No, not really.
I mean, I can use a spreadsheet, but she just tells me what I can and can't spend money on.

Speaker 2 I'm definitely the spender. It's funny because I'm the nerd, but I'm also the spender.
He's the saver. He's just like, you know, lives.

Speaker 1 He's good. Yeah.
Yeah. Good, just to lay low.
Yeah. Okay.
Do you feel like your kids felt the effects of it?

Speaker 1 Meaning like

Speaker 1 their lifestyle and everything? Like, do they, are they like, oh, mom and dad are rolling in it now? We get to lie.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I feel like we...
I feel like we had a pretty good balance.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's so great.
You guys.

Speaker 2 What was your biggest fight you had in seven years?

Speaker 2 Over money or just general fights? It wasn't. I mean, if you want to talk about the big fights, if you're here for it, make good radio.
Yeah, what's your biggest money disagreement?

Speaker 2 Spending, purchasing things?

Speaker 2 I don't know that we've had, we don't really

Speaker 2 fight about money. We're very on the same page on that.
We do parent a lot differently.

Speaker 2 That's for your show.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's awesome, you guys. Congratulations.
So, how does it feel?

Speaker 2 It feels crazy. It feels incredible.
It's like a weight just getting lifted off their shoulders. You know, the grass is greener.

Speaker 2 Everything is a lot nicer when it's all paid off and you're not making that payment every month. It's wild.

Speaker 1 Wild. Oh, well, you guys are weird.
And we always celebrate the weirdness because, I mean, seriously, I haven't paid off house. And then you add California to that.

Speaker 1 That's the extra layer to this in my head of like, oh, yeah, people feel like that just cannot be done. And you guys, you guys did it.
Absolutely incredible. Absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1 Okay, so bring the kids up. So we have, is it Shelby and Logan? Yes.
Yes. And how old are they?

Speaker 2 Logan is 10 and Shelby is 20. So Logan, you've never known your parents not to be crazy, right?

Speaker 2 Now you're going to have two boring rich parents. Fine.

Speaker 2 He went to jet skis. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. That was the toy phase of our life because

Speaker 2 we don't have any big toys or anything like that. Hey, Logan.

Speaker 2 Just between me and you and a couple million other people, they don't have any more excuses now.

Speaker 1 They got to get you some fun stuff, Logan. Okay.
Your mom's a spender. I see it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she'll take you out.

Speaker 1 Oh, let's start. You guys, so proud of you.
I mean, incredible family. And to do something that is above and beyond what people do and the sacrifice is so real.
And you get the reward on it.

Speaker 1 You live like no one else. The later you get to live and give like no one else.
We are so excited. Baby step seven.
Can't believe it. All right.

Speaker 1 So we have Jonna and Ryan, Shelby and Logan from Sacramento, California. They paid off $198,000 in seven years, making $94,000 to $207,000.
And that includes their house. So count it down.

Speaker 1 Let's hear a big debt-free scream.

Speaker 2 Three, two, one.

Speaker 2 We're debt-free.

Speaker 2 Amazing.

Speaker 2 Woo!

Speaker 1 Incredible.

Speaker 1 That is so impressive. Always impressive.

Speaker 2 Dude, seven years of doing a thing.

Speaker 2 Most people in America can't do something for seven minutes without being like, I'm bored.

Speaker 1 Let's do something. That's right.
Yeah, yeah. Change it up.

Speaker 2 Let's scroll something. Yeah.
Just to get a plan and do it for seven years. And then plug it away, plug it away.

Speaker 1 Not even a house payment.

Speaker 2 Can you imagine America watching the election results come in either way and not worry that someone's going to do something to take your house because they can't because it's yours.

Speaker 2 It's amazing, dude. Congratulations, guys.

Speaker 1 Congratulations. This is The Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hey, welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, joined by Rachel Cruz.
So

Speaker 2 here's a trend out. And if you've listened to my show, Rachel,

Speaker 2 over the last couple of years, I've taken more and more calls about people struggling with gambling.

Speaker 2 More gambling and more gambling.

Speaker 2 And now as sports betting, as municipalities and cities and states have been wanting to get in on the gambling action, more and more places are legalizing sports betting, especially on their phones.

Speaker 2 And check this out, dude. This is

Speaker 2 an article here. It just says, Americans spend more money betting on sports than investing in stocks.

Speaker 2 Recent data reveals that since sports betting has become legalized in much of the U.S., households are diverting their income to gambling rather than investing in the stock market.

Speaker 2 Net investments have dropped 14%

Speaker 2 as in 2023 alone, the American sports betting industry hit a record-breaking $10.9 billion in revenue.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 wildcats, dude. As a woman, a girl, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't understand. I don't understand it.
Now, going to Vegas, and I've admitted it on the show,

Speaker 1 and rolling some dice and playing some craps is so fun. This is so fun.

Speaker 2 The single biggest loss I've ever taken in my life was standing next to Rachel Cruz at a craps table.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it doesn't always happen, but

Speaker 1 when you get on a hot streak, it's like so fun because everyone's cheering. You're making everyone money.
It is a fun entertainment moment.

Speaker 1 When you bet on sports, you do nothing for the, like you're not, you don't get to participate in it. That's how I don't understand the fun is.

Speaker 1 It's more fun when you're betting and like you're the the one playing the game.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're missing out on this is like the whole sports industry of America is

Speaker 2 instead of going out like my dad, my dad, I have these vivid memories of going when I was a kid and my dad had, was always in a softball league, always into something. We don't do that anymore.

Speaker 2 We pay men, other grown men and women, bajillions of dollars to play sports for us. Now we pay them to like make us money.
To make us money or to lose money, right?

Speaker 1 We've outsourced everything yes and now there's commercials for sports what's the one i don't know i don't know much about it but it's the um

Speaker 2 i don't want to give anyone a giving okay yeah yeah yeah yeah but you but but that's what's crazy to me is now you wouldn't you didn't see that 10 years ago but the commercials now for it i'm like oh my gosh 38 states have legalized gambling and it's become a growth industry generating more than 120 billion in total oh my gosh and like i said 10.81 billion dollars in 2023 yeah in one year no 120 uh billion total bets.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And $11 billion revenue in one year.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And investing has taken a hit. And so there was an average

Speaker 2 7.7% of households made online bets of one of these studies with about $1,100 a year. And

Speaker 2 here's the challenge.

Speaker 2 And here's the deal. They know this about lottery.
It impacts low-income people.

Speaker 2 more,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 If you don't owe anybody on your house, a house payment, if if you don't owe anybody credit cards, if you've got a stable job, you can go to Vegas and spend a couple hundred bucks and lose it, and it's annoying and you can go, ah, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 If you don't have $200 to gamble, because that's your light and your water bill, and yet you think, man, if I hit, this could change everything for me.

Speaker 2 It's an outsized impact on you for doing the same exact behavior, right?

Speaker 2 The study says that financially constrained households are particularly noticing the negative effects here.

Speaker 1 And I think what's hard to

Speaker 1 say this is what I don't like about gambling, the lottery,

Speaker 1 anytime you are delegating out winning financially to someone else or to a system is you're putting your hope in something that

Speaker 1 there's no payoff in, right? And it's different when you're investing over a period of time because there is a proven track record that your money will make money.

Speaker 2 Well, look at the proven track record in the lottery. Somebody wins.
Maybe it's going to be me this time.

Speaker 1 But every time you put money in the market, for the most part, over time, over the long haul, your money's going going to make money.

Speaker 1 But for gambling, the lottery, all of it, it is like this quick, it's a quick win idea that my life is going to change because of this one play that I'm doing.

Speaker 1 And that's so much easier than playing the longer game financially.

Speaker 2 And check this out.

Speaker 2 as it applies to the message that Dave's been talking about for 30 years.

Speaker 2 Increase in betting and consumption drives an increase in financial instability in terms of decreased credit availability and increased credit card and a higher incidence of overdrawn accounts.

Speaker 2 What does that mean? People are putting, now that it's all so easy on your phone,

Speaker 2 everyone's just putting it on the credit card.

Speaker 2 They're just taking up money and putting it on bets. And people are going into debt to make financial bets, which you lose.
And I got to make it back, dude. So I'm going to take out another loan.

Speaker 2 And now I find myself way over my head.

Speaker 1 Yep, yep. Because what is it? I mean, I think the same is true, like when you buy something, right? The

Speaker 1 excitement, the dopamine. but when you're betting

Speaker 2 there's the anticipation the anticipation the anticipation and then

Speaker 2 the payoff and which is what your cortisol like what's the like what's going on i mean then the nerdiness doesn't matter as much as you're you have a biochemical response in your body that begins to build that apprehension apprehension apprehension and um the great analemke describes it as a teeter-totter the more on one side of the teeter-totter your body's way of leveraging it is to is pain it hurts right that's the next morning after a bender it you are in physical pain and the only way people sometimes handle that pain is by doing it again right is increasing it again and you just get on this teeter-totter of of anticipation anticipation and then wham and it it drops you below baseline and so uh of your dopam falls off a cliff yeah and is that where the addiction starts to play in because some people i know it's like they

Speaker 2 addiction is i don't want to hurt yep right and so i'm going to come up with a behavior instead of dealing with that core hurt i'm going to come up with a behavior and my body's going to begin to automate a behavior that helps hurt less.

Speaker 2 And unfortunately, when it comes to addiction, you need more and more of that behavior to cover up higher and higher amounts of pain of your body trying to equalize itself, right?

Speaker 2 Get back to equilibrium. And it just hurts on top of hurts, on top of hurts.
And you find yourself, I'm putting sports gambling on a credit card, right? It's a mess, mess, mess, mess, mess.

Speaker 2 What a mess we're in.

Speaker 2 What does this mean?

Speaker 2 Don't gamble unless you can set that money on fire in your living room and you can laugh about it. Yep.
Right.

Speaker 1 Totally. Yes.
Yeah. We always say that.
I mean, if there's anything that you're doing financially that has a big risk, gambling would be one. Playing craps when you're in Vegas once a year.

Speaker 1 I would include that.

Speaker 1 Crypto, I would put crypto in the same bucket.

Speaker 1 Like anything that does not have a long-term track record, anything that has a high level of risk for you to lose that money, even investing in a friend's business or something comes to you with this idea, hey, hey, hey.

Speaker 2 Make sure you've got the the other side of the barbell station.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 So that's the point is like anytime you're going to do any of these like risky level moves financially, to your point, emotionally, you have to be able to set that money on fire and you're, you're fine.

Speaker 1 Meaning you're out of debt. You have a fully funded emergency fund.
You are investing 15% of your income into retirement.

Speaker 1 So instead of investing going down, the amount of people investing, going down, it needs to be the opposite for you.

Speaker 1 If you're not investing, you need to get yourself in a place where you are because that is a proven track record for your money to make money in the long term.

Speaker 1 And if you have kids, you're saving for college, you know, you're paying off the house. And once the house is paid off, then it's like, okay, I have disposable income.

Speaker 1 We are in a solid place financially that we're not going to harm ourselves by, you know, putting a small amount of money in this, that, or that, you know, playing this, playing that.

Speaker 1 But just know what you're getting into as well. And know yourself.

Speaker 1 There's a level of self-awareness that, like, if you do have that kind of personality, that you know yourself, that you're going to keep going.

Speaker 2 He's going, just don't just i i like to say any sort of advice um

Speaker 2 needs to be for fun not for strategy

Speaker 2 that's great john so if you if you

Speaker 2 if you want to have a drink with your buddies and you all laugh real loud you tell those stories great if drinking makes you feel better at the end of the day you need to deal with that

Speaker 2 if it's a way you can deal with um i remember this is a gosh this is going to get dark i i used to give a survey to my grad students and i remember every year i started stopping the conversation because one of the questions was, I need three or four drinks or two or three drinks to engage in some sort of sexual activity.

Speaker 2 And I remember saying, hey, if you have to drink to override your body's natural brake system, don't do that. Right.
If you have to gamble to feel alive again, go talk to somebody. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 2 Because I want you to feel alive in your own skin. So

Speaker 2 it can be fun, but don't use it as a strategy.

Speaker 1 That's a great point. So good.
Well, thank you guys for listening and watching. If you're on podcasts or YouTube, this is it for you.
But make sure to go over to the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 It is completely free and you will get the third hour of the show there. If you're listening on traditional radio, we are still with you.
Thank you, America. This is the Ramsey Show.