Don’t Try To Solve an Income Problem With More Debt

Speaker 1 From the Ramsey Network, it's the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me is Dr. John Deloney.
We're going to be taking calls about your life, your money, your relationships.

Speaker 1 You guys already know this, but Dr. John is the resident relationship.
Can I call you a guru?

Speaker 2 You can call me anything you want to. The guru will be the nicest thing somebody call me today.

Speaker 1 I'll go with guru and I'll hit you up on the money side and we'll cross paths as needed. If you want to get involved, this is a live show.
So you can call in right now.

Speaker 1 888-825-5225 gets you on the line. All right, we got Eric from Seattle, Washington starting us off.
What's going on, Big E?

Speaker 3 Hi, guys. Thank you guys so much for having me.

Speaker 2 You're welcome. How can we help? A little bit nervous.

Speaker 3 So I'm currently a small business owner and I'm looking for your advice on what to do legally, morally, and ethically.

Speaker 3 So I started a business two years ago with a good friend of mine. Well, just knew him professionally.

Speaker 3 And after one year, he called me out of the blue and told me that he has cancer.

Speaker 3 And I felt really bad. And we decided to, you know, kind of close up our business.
At that time, we had about $16,000 of outstanding balance that we owed in various debts.

Speaker 3 At that point, I just messaged him once to see, you know, if he's okay with covering his share. He didn't respond.
So I didn't want to press him because he has cancer.

Speaker 3 So I just paid the $16,000 from my own pocket and we closed the business.

Speaker 3 It's been about two years now. I've been kind of just calling him, just not even mentioning money.
He's like, hey, are you okay? How's it like, is everything okay?

Speaker 3 He hasn't answered me, doesn't reply. I was wondering what you guys would do, like, you know, legally, morally, and ethically.
Should I just let it go? Should I try to pursue it?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So do you feel like he's ducking you because he thinks that you're going to ask about this money?

Speaker 1 What do you think? You know the guy and you know what your relationship was like before this, or is it that he's quite sick and

Speaker 1 he's kind of off the radar?

Speaker 3 I mean, knowing him, he's a little bit, I feel like it can be both, really.

Speaker 3 My gut tells me that, you know, he's actually sick, but I feel like he can at least answer a text or a call in, you know, three years.

Speaker 1 i mean you guys not even mentioning about the money you were friends we weren't like friends we just knew each other like professionally from like um previous work we worked at the same place and uh yeah i mean what was it like when you guys closed the business what what did that look like because i can't imagine running a business with somebody that i'm not in direct contact with on a daily basis i mean you're you're doing everything together so what happened something happened that caused you guys to kind of we don't talk much anymore something had to have happened Am I wrong?

Speaker 2 Am I wrong?

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, so we were just planning for our next stages of expansion. He was in charge of, you know, like tracking down new clients and trying to expand us.

Speaker 3 And he just called me like one day and says, hey, like, well, he hasn't been picking up my phone lately. And,

Speaker 3 you know, he finally got back to me after a week and he told me that, hey, I'm currently dealing with some health issues. And I was like, what happens? Like, I currently have cancer.

Speaker 3 And I know he's a single dad. Okay.
So, you know, I just wished him all the best.

Speaker 3 And then on the same call, we're like, okay, well, like, you know, let's close up the business then because I want you to focus on this and I can't carry this on without you.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So the next step was we called our accountant and, you know, we termed, we submitted the, you know, the notice of termination. We got his signature.

Speaker 3 And, you know, then, you know, our accountant sent us the bill as well. And, you know, after that, you know, you know, didn't really hear back from him.

Speaker 2 Here's, here's my thoughts, dude. Like,

Speaker 2 on any front,

Speaker 2 like, let's say he's a total scumbag and he's just playing you

Speaker 2 right to run a two or three year i've got cancer i'm a single dad ruse

Speaker 2 dude i want nothing to do with that human being

Speaker 2 let's say he does have cancer maybe he's in remission he's working really hard it scared him to death he's just trying to keep one foot in front of the other

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 Or I just go back to the emotional and spiritual calories you have burnt over the last two years for $8,000.

Speaker 1 Which is a lot of money.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't, I don't want to minimize it, but bro, I mean, if I'm in your seat, I'm

Speaker 2 brushing my shoulders off and I'm going on about my life.

Speaker 1 Interesting, John.

Speaker 2 Interesting. Because either you're going to sue a guy that told you he's got cancer.
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't think you have to go to that. I mean, can I just ask, have you?

Speaker 1 I know that you're saying, hey, I'm contacting him and I'm contacting him under the guise of like seeing how he is.

Speaker 1 But have you just actually said, hey, I don't know if you realize this, but when we closed the the business, there was $16,000.

Speaker 1 I just paid it, but are, you know, truthfully, we went into this together.

Speaker 1 Um, because there's business is business, this is not your brother, this is not your uncle, like it's not your dad, like business is business, and so there's part of it that I would be like, Hey, um, I would love for you to pay your half because I came out of pocket on this and $16,000 is a lot of money.

Speaker 1 And then maybe he does say, bro, I'd love to pay you, but here's what's going on. Like, I don't feel like there's anything wrong with opening up that conversation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 But what, let me, let me put it this way: what you're doing is not working.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 So either you're a true friend and your buddy's dying of cancer, your buddy, your former business partner and buddy, and you go knock on the door

Speaker 2 and you say, hey, man, I miss you. You're not returning my calls.
Are you all right?

Speaker 2 Or you let this thing go. But you just like lobbing a text every once in a while or lobbing a voicemail every once in a while.
It's just not, it's, it's making you crazy.

Speaker 2 And if there is a hurting person on the other end of this phone, on the other end of that line, it's not working. It's not getting through to him.

Speaker 3 Okay. So you recommend just visiting him in person or just forgetting about it?

Speaker 2 I mean, I think, I mean, Jayden and I, I mean, I think she's exactly right. Business is business.
And so if you want to go track down your $8,000, the way you're trying to track it down isn't working.

Speaker 2 So either knock on his door or send a letter from a lawyer.

Speaker 2 That's really your two options. Or you've tried for two years or two and a half years.
You, either he's a scam artist or he's just struggling, man.

Speaker 2 And either way, he doesn't, he's communicating to you through his behavior. He don't want to talk to you.
So let it ride.

Speaker 1 Yeah. For me, you've said nothing about this guy that denotes, man, I had a great relationship with him and I really want to keep that together.

Speaker 1 Like there's been nothing of like, we used to be best friends or good buddies. At least you haven't said that in this conversation.

Speaker 1 So in many ways, it's like, if you kind of press this, there's nothing, it doesn't feel like there's much lost if you press this and

Speaker 1 he kind of gets, you know, he starts feeling some type of way about it, right? It's not like it were your dad or if this were your best buddy.

Speaker 1 Am I right? Or is there more that you didn't tell me?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, you're, you're completely right. You're completely right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'd press it. You're, the truth is, if somebody says, I don't, I'm not going to give you this money.
Yeah, you're not going to get it without some sort of a legal.

Speaker 1 situation going on there and you get to decide that but i'm with john man i i'd press him i'd find out where he works or i'd find out where he lives and I'd pay him a visit.

Speaker 1 I'd be like, hey, man, what's going on? You just dropped off the face of the earth. And check in with him first.

Speaker 1 But then it's like, hey, let's talk about this $8,000 because that's not a little bit of money.

Speaker 1 Most people feel that greatly. So thanks for the call.

Speaker 2 Are you struggling right now financially?

Speaker 3 No, no. I mean, $8,000 is a lot of money, but it's not like it's going to kill me or, you know, I'm going to be homeless or anything.

Speaker 2 I have like about some savings. Okay.

Speaker 2 Do you, do you want to be friends with this dude? Are you genuinely worried about him or are you reaching out just to get your money back?

Speaker 3 At this point, I think it's more about the latter than the former

Speaker 3 because it's just giving me a little more, like my suspicion is just growing more and more.

Speaker 3 Just because it's been, you know, about two years and I just even haven't heard from him back.

Speaker 2 Is he alive? Okay, or, you know, that's what I'm wondering.

Speaker 1 Is he

Speaker 1 with us?

Speaker 3 I have no idea.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so you're creating stories that are keeping you up at night, not him. So I would say act.

Speaker 2 Either make it a point in your spirit just to let this thing go, go get in a car and go visit him, or go contact a lawyer and have a lawyer write a letter. But those are the three direct things.

Speaker 2 You can drop it, you can befriend it, or you can make it a legal action. But you just sitting around spinning up stories about what he may or may not be doing, that's making you crazy on the inside.

Speaker 2 It's not worth it.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 It's the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade.
Next to me is Dr. John Deloney.
Happy Halloween.

Speaker 1 If you celebrate that sort of thing, are you a spooky Halloween, like creepy Halloween?

Speaker 2 I like scary movies. Yeah, I like haunted houses.
And I love eating my body weight and candy and having everyone not like look at me like I've got something wrong with me.

Speaker 1 You're like, I want to have a normal night without everybody looking at me like I'm crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, you can just mainline candy and everyone's like, yeah, it's Halloween. So I feel like I get a pass.

Speaker 2 But also, I like going to bed like at nine o'clock. So this is a tough night for me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I hear that. Are you like a chocolate or like a candy, like hard candy person?

Speaker 2 I'm not super discerning. Okay.
I'm not super discerning. I always get frustrated with the Jolly Ranger folks, but other than the Jolly Ranger people, and I got a stiff dad tax.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to teach my kids about the future of the world they're going to be inheriting with high, high taxes. And so when they get home with the candy, I go through it and dad tax it.

Speaker 1 Got you, got you, got you.

Speaker 2 Pretty hard.

Speaker 1 Listen, I always say payday is very underrated. I get sad.
Every Halloween, there's less and less paydays that are given out as candy. I know.
And that's one of my favorites.

Speaker 2 Kids like mine ruined it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's less and less butterfingers going out. That bothers me deeply.

Speaker 2 With me. All of my heart, yes.

Speaker 1 Kelly knows what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, because I talk to a lot of, I used to make fun of everybody when I was a kid.
And that's how the universe gave me a peanut allergy kid. They're like, oh, that's what you get done.

Speaker 2 So it's kids like mine that are ruining it for you.

Speaker 1 I got you.

Speaker 1 I didn't make that connection. Now I know.

Speaker 2 There should be, oh my gosh. If there was an adults-only peanut candy party.

Speaker 1 Let's move on.

Speaker 2 I realized I just wandered into

Speaker 2 some fragile territory there. That's not what I meant.

Speaker 2 I was saying, if there was a bunch of people that got together and they were like, hey, let's all bring paydays and butterfingers, it would have been awesome.

Speaker 1 It would be awesome, John.

Speaker 2 Let's go out to Mobile, Alabama, and talk to Michael. What's up, Michael?

Speaker 3 Hey, how's it going? That was a little bit weird with the adult party, but we all are all weird.

Speaker 2 That makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1 I'm glad you called it out, Michael.

Speaker 2 We're sorry. What's up? What's What's up?

Speaker 2 How are y'all doing? Good, good, good. What's up, dude?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I was actually calling. I live paycheck to paycheck, man.
I make like right under 40 grand a year. My wife doesn't work.
She stays at home with the kids.

Speaker 3 I've cut costs, I mean, as much as possible, and we're still just not. really saving any money.

Speaker 3 Like, I just feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, and I'm trying to get us into a house and things like that. But my main question is,

Speaker 3 what is the best way for somebody like me? I have no retirement. I have no savings.
I have nothing for the future. I'm 32.

Speaker 2 Michael, you got to make more money, brother.

Speaker 2 Like, you're not making 40,000

Speaker 2 40 grand. What do you do for a living?

Speaker 3 I'm a cemetery maintenance manager. Okay.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I work 40 hours a week or whatever, but I started my own business this year, landscaping and stuff.

Speaker 2 What's that bringing in?

Speaker 3 It's gone pretty well. I've brought in right at like 18,000 this first year.
Okay.

Speaker 3 But I've also spent every single dollar getting new better equipment, just you know, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 So you invested it all back in.

Speaker 1 You didn't?

Speaker 3 Yeah. And next year, I'm actually in a good spot to, I think, actually make a profit, but I haven't paid myself out of that business.

Speaker 3 And I'm, I feel like I'm just killing myself trying to juggle everything and then not getting anywhere

Speaker 2 on top.

Speaker 1 Well, let me bust in here.

Speaker 1 Tell me a little bit more about your financial snapshot because we know that you're making the $40,000.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to lie to you, it's going to be tough

Speaker 1 to make your way with that.

Speaker 1 And then you started the side hustle, but you're reinvesting all the profit, which in this case, if it's a side hustle, pay yourself and grow the business later. Right now, you need cash.

Speaker 1 So let's find out about the debt. Do you have any debt going on? Is that robbing you?

Speaker 3 Well, so the past year and a half that I've been here, I've focused on paying all my credit cards down. I have like practically no credit card debt.

Speaker 2 How much? It's like $150.

Speaker 3 You know, and the main things I have are mine and my wife's vehicles.

Speaker 2 Okay, tell me what they're worth and what you owe on them.

Speaker 3 What they're worth is

Speaker 3 probably collectively $20,000 together, and I owe probably collectively $30,000 on both of them.

Speaker 1 Tell me individually, tell me what you owe on it, and tell me what

Speaker 3 21% interest rate.

Speaker 3 And I'm actually refining, I'm in the process of refinancing it right now, but it's really all I could get at the time. And so I took it.

Speaker 3 The truck, I bought it for $15,000.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 At 41%.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 Okay. And what's it worth? You bought it for $15,000.
What's it worth now if you were to Kelly Blue Bucket private sale?

Speaker 3 It'd probably be about

Speaker 3 $9,000 or $10,000.

Speaker 1 Yikes. Okay.

Speaker 1 And what's your payment on it?

Speaker 3 My payment is $445 a month.

Speaker 1 Sheesh. Okay.
Now tell me a little bit about your wife's car because I'm going to try to find you a way out of some of these payments because these are what are

Speaker 1 you can't breathe, you know. So tell me about your wife's car.

Speaker 3 She has a Tahoe.

Speaker 3 It's a 2013.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 We got it for $25,000

Speaker 2 a couple years ago. Golly, dude.
Hey,

Speaker 1 what's going on here is your cars, your cars are almost what you make in a year.

Speaker 3 Trust me, I know. Yeah, that's probably literally, I can buy weekly, and it takes one of my checks to pay both of the vehicles and most of insurance.

Speaker 1 Okay, so now that you've, now that you feel that, then I don't need buy-in going forward. We know we've got to get rid of one or both of these vehicles some way or somehow.

Speaker 1 So hers is worth 25, or you paid 25 for hers. What's hers worth if you were to sell it?

Speaker 1 Not trade-in.

Speaker 3 Probably $12,000.

Speaker 1 What's going on? Why are you...

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1 Why are you going into these subprime loans?

Speaker 3 Why are you paying 41% interest and doing all this what's the what does it get you on the on the tahoe we got like an eight percent interest rate i got a pretty good interest rate on there um the thing it's just it was so it was just older but a real like an 80-year-old woman had it had like 60 000 miles on it it's still going great yeah but here's here's where i want to get you to here's where i want to get you to

Speaker 1 um i want to get you to the point where you look at these vehicles and you go this was the worst decision this is getting me nothing.

Speaker 1 As long as you look at it and go, oh, well, it was kind of good, or I needed this, or there's not going to be much I can do to help you.

Speaker 1 You have to look at this and go, that was the dumbest thing I ever did. I'm never doing it again.
That's how we know there's a turning point that's going to happen.

Speaker 1 And I hope you get to that point because truly something's behind this. For you to make $40,000 a year and have almost $40,000 in vehicles, I mean,

Speaker 1 you're shooting yourself in the foot at that point.

Speaker 2 So to John's point,

Speaker 2 Michael, I think I know what it is. You don't make any money, but y'all are living a life that you want to be living.

Speaker 2 And what I mean by that is, bro, you can't afford for your wife to stay home right now. Y'all don't make that kind of money.
And I know you want that, and I want it for you, but you can't afford it.

Speaker 2 I have three kids as well.

Speaker 3 No. And that's the main reason.

Speaker 2 That's an even more reasonable total. Yeah, dude.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 you got cars that are nice, and they may be old or or whatever, but that you can't afford. It's like this.
I want to have a Tahoe. I want to have this nice truck.

Speaker 2 We're going to be a stay-at-home single-income family. All of that works good on paper, and it looks good on Instagram.
It doesn't look good in reality.

Speaker 2 How old are your kids, man?

Speaker 3 13, 10, 2, and my wife's pregnant right now with another one.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you have two that are in school, and you have a two-year-old, right?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 Is she homeschooling also?

Speaker 3 No, no.

Speaker 3 The girls are in school and she stays at home with my youngest. And like I said, she's seven months pregnant now.
Okay.

Speaker 3 So she hasn't been working for, I guess it's been the past two years.

Speaker 3 She took off for my youngest.

Speaker 2 Let me ask you what happened.

Speaker 2 We're going to run out of time here. I just need to say this out loud, bro.
You got to look yourself in the mirror. And I want you to, like, there's nobility in the job that you do.

Speaker 2 There's nobility in starting to side hustle. You've got to go make more money.
You've got a family of five and another one on the way. You've got to get rid of these cars, right?

Speaker 2 You've got to figure out these car loans and stop doing what quote unquote looks fine.

Speaker 2 You've got to go scorched earth with cars, no debt. Hang on the line.
We're going to give you FPU as our gift.

Speaker 2 I want you to watch those videos.

Speaker 1 And Ken Coleman's career assessment because your core income is an issue. No side hustle is going to help you get out of this.
You need to change career paths, and Ken Coleman can help you with that.

Speaker 1 You're listening to the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me is the doctor, Dr. John Deloney.

Speaker 1 I'm really excited because the time is running out yet again to book your cruise, John.

Speaker 1 I've told you many times it'd be a good book.

Speaker 1 You got to book it now. They're more than 90% full.
And so if you are thinking about going on this cruise, now's the last chance. And there's no guarantee that

Speaker 1 you'll have another chance. So you better book it.

Speaker 2 And there's the, yeah, it's going to go as a Christmas gift.

Speaker 1 and don't forget the uh ken coleman pickleball challenge and the george camel cannonball in the pool challenge he's taking on all comers if you want to go see that interesting okay speedo required speedo request what's george's personal request that's right that's right well i do need to say we're talking about all of these fun amenities but it's not your average cruise this is actually a very premium cruise holland america is top draw if you will john it's a it's a nice it's a nice cruise and we're going to really nice destinations i've cruised a zillion times i've been to all these places they're actually really really great turks and cacos puerto rico uh st.

Speaker 1 thomas bahamas and more um holland americans new stouten dam ship is beautiful the way the theater is john it's like around and all the way around uh 360 basically are leds and so it's a very immersive experience so it'll be really really fun um really great food really great entertainment there's specialty resta restaurants on board um there are excursions that you can do so food's all included right everything's included room service is included.

Speaker 2 Everything's incredible.

Speaker 1 Man,

Speaker 1 you can have a hot dog at 3 a.m. and no one's going to stop you.

Speaker 2 And will they bring you

Speaker 2 indigestion and anti-diarrhea?

Speaker 1 That you might have to provide on your own. But all the Ramsey personalities are going to be there.
And I keep saying, by the end of this, it's a seven-day cruise.

Speaker 1 By the end of this, we're going to be BFFs forever.

Speaker 2 Or we're going to be NFFs. We're going to be no forever friends.
I think we'll be BFFs.

Speaker 1 I think we will too, as long as nobody wears a Speedo. But there's going to be lots of celebrity guests.

Speaker 1 It's just going to be great. So, book your cruise, ramsey solutions.com/slash cruise is how you do it.
Or you can click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast.

Speaker 1 All right, I'll see you there. Let's go to the phone lines, shall we? Wichita, Kansas.
We've got Drew. What's going on, Drew?

Speaker 3 Hey, I appreciate you guys taking my call. It's a little embarrassing of a phone call, but here we are.
My wife and I bought a car two years ago, and we are absolutely upside down in this thing.

Speaker 3 Kelly Blue Book, I can trade it for $3,000. I could probably do a private sell of $5,500 to $6,000.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 We owe just about $14,000 on the car. Whoa.

Speaker 3 We are trying to figure out: do we just let this thing get repossessed and deal with the money that we're going to have to pay later on to free up that $500,060

Speaker 2 today?

Speaker 3 Or do we keep it?

Speaker 1 No, I would not do a voluntary repossession. That is going to drop an atom bomb on your credit, which is unnecessary.
And you're still going to be on the hook for

Speaker 1 that option.

Speaker 1 What's the payment on this for you? What's it costing you?

Speaker 3 $450 a month.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's a lot.

Speaker 1 Tell us about your income.

Speaker 3 So my wife and I stepped down from ministry, just obeying Holy Spirit and rest.

Speaker 3 And I am currently driving a semi-truck.

Speaker 3 So I'm gone a lot.

Speaker 2 What do you make?

Speaker 3 Right now I'm sitting at about 40 to 50,000 a year.

Speaker 1 40 to 50,000 a year. What are you taking home? What's it look like monthly after taxes, after all your expenses are taken out? What's it look like that you're bringing home in your check every month?

Speaker 3 It just depends on miles. Obviously, we're looking probably two to sometimes 4,000 a month.

Speaker 1 Okay, two to four thousand. And is your wife doing anything during this time?

Speaker 3 No, she is a stay-at-home mom. She's actually, we're having a baby tomorrow.

Speaker 1 Wow, okay. And it's this going to be your first child or how many do you have?

Speaker 3 This will be number three.

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 You know what? This, this, in many ways, this call is very similar to one we took earlier this hour.

Speaker 1 Regarding the car, you're probably going to have to bite the bullet and pay this thing off. Is it your only debt?

Speaker 3 We have a credit card of like $1,000 and then we have student loans, which are probably about $20,000, and that's all the debt that we have.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because here's the thing.

Speaker 1 If I said, hey, go to the credit union and get a loan for the difference, but then also keep some money out to buy yourself a cash car, you'd be right back at $14,000, right? And so

Speaker 1 there's really no way getting out of it. The only difference is you might have a slightly lower payment every month, but not by much.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So for that reason, I would say you're going to have to bite the bullet. And how quickly can you pay off $14,000? That really needs to be the goal.
This could be a lot worse.

Speaker 1 You know, John, we're not talking about a $45,000 situation. This is a $14,000 car plus a $1,000 credit card.
If you both decided

Speaker 1 it's, And I'm not saying this to be ugly, but

Speaker 1 it's adult go time and we've got to work and we got to bring in an income then you can clean this mess up very very quickly but the problem is

Speaker 1 making two to three thousand dollars a month it ain't happening yeah yeah

Speaker 2 i hesitate to get into this but when you say the holy spirit told you to stop working at the church what does that what does that mean something happen did y'all get in trouble or did you just say my time here is done

Speaker 3 um it was a little bit of church hurt with it um i'll be honest there um but we definitely needed rest. My wife has had some health issues through this pregnancy.

Speaker 3 We just needed to focus on us and our kids. That way, later on in life, they did not

Speaker 3 hate the church and hate being

Speaker 2 a follower of Christ.

Speaker 2 If I can be honest, just listening to your voice, you sound terrified.

Speaker 3 A little bit, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 You've got a pretty brittle tenor. You've got a baby coming tomorrow.
You have a job that is putting you on the road all the time. You're not home.
Your wife's not doing well. You've still got...

Speaker 2 My dad was a minister for a while, too. There's a hurt like no other when your church family turns on you, right?

Speaker 2 I think you're worth more than $40,000 in your current area, okay? And I applaud you for going to do the next thing you could do to get a paycheck to take care of your family.

Speaker 2 That's noble and that's good. But if I were you, I'd go down and see if what would what I could make being an assistant manager at Walmart or stocking or something like that.

Speaker 2 Because you need to be around your family when you have this other kid and if your wife has had health issues, I know that's weighing on you.

Speaker 2 And I want you to make more than 40,000.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
It's a scary moment right now.

Speaker 2 Is that sound tenable?

Speaker 2 Every trucker I know is struggling right now. It's just, it's, it's just, it's a reality.

Speaker 2 It made a jillion dollars three years ago, and people are gnawing off their arms and legs to try to make it work work right now.

Speaker 2 And so, I'd rather see you walk away from that and go work at McDonald's and make 11 bucks an hour and go from there and then go

Speaker 2 down the street and throw boxes at Walmart until 11 o'clock at night and do the night feeding so your wife can go to bed. I'd rather y'all figure that out the next six months.

Speaker 2 And even if you're only making 40 or 50 grand doing that until you cobble something else together,

Speaker 2 but man, oh man, oh man, I can hear it in you, dude.

Speaker 1 I mean, the truth is, when you really

Speaker 1 put math to this, if you just say to yourself, okay, let's take it $1,000 at a time. I need to make $1,000 more.

Speaker 1 If I can make $1,000 more a month, for the most part, I can have this car paid off, right? I mean, that's what we're whittling it down to. And if you do that, you're out of this car.

Speaker 1 And, you know, you do a little bit more than that. You're out of the car and you're out of the credit card.
Right. And then the next year, you start tackling the student loan.

Speaker 1 And so just by breaking this down into bite-sized pieces, because again, again, similar to the call we took earlier, this is a core income issue.

Speaker 1 I don't know if your plans are to go back into ministry or not, but whatever your plan is career-wise, it has to shift from where it is right now.

Speaker 1 And I'm not going to sit here and act like that's a light switch. I think that that's more of a journey that you're going to be going on.

Speaker 1 But in the meantime, do what John said and take the jobs that you can get because a lot of them are paying a lot more than what you're making right now.

Speaker 2 And you miss your family, don't you?

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Don't don't if you were making $140,000 a year and this was a season

Speaker 2 I'd give you a hug and say man This is a season.

Speaker 2 You're making $40,000. It's not worth missing everybody and your family and your life and watching your little baby be born without you.
Right. To do that.

Speaker 2 Not when there's $40,000 worth of jobs down the street, if not more. And you can get on an assistant manager and associate manager track and then go make yourself some good money down the road here.

Speaker 2 I'm proud of you, man. Let's reverse engineer this thing and congratulations on having a new baby.
And Jade and I will be cheering you guys on that you guys have a

Speaker 2 healthy birth and everything's good to go this time tomorrow. Blessings, man.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 You're listening to The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me is Dr. John Deloney.

Speaker 1 Today's Ramsey Show Question of the Day is sponsored by YReFi.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's hard to make progress when you're trapped under an avalanche of defaulted private student loan debt, but Why Refi helps you dig out and get momentum with custom refinancing based on your ability to pay and a lump sum payoff option that you could qualify for after 24 months.

Speaker 1 That's a good thing. So go to yrefi.com slash Ramsey.
That's the letter Y R E F Y dot com slash Ramsey. Remember, this may not be available in all states.

Speaker 2 All right, today's question comes from Isaac in Arizona. At my current job, I was given the option to take a voluntary severance package, which I accepted.

Speaker 2 I'll be leaving at the end of the year with roughly $150,000 before taxes. My wife and I have a $175,000 mortgage, $5,000 in credit card debt, and we owe $40,000 on two cars.

Speaker 2 I'm already job hunting, but I don't have anything lined up yet. And given the current bloodbath in the tech industry,

Speaker 2 pause. Hey, you know what we should do? Let's make a bunch of things that make our jobs obsolete.
Yeah, that sounds great.

Speaker 2 I'm praying for the best, but planning for the worst.

Speaker 2 Assuming I'm still jobless in a couple of months, would it be better to leave the money alone until I find a job and pay myself every two weeks for living expenses or go ahead and work the baby steps regardless of my job situation.

Speaker 2 All right, so off the top of my head, you tell me if I'm wrong here. Okay.

Speaker 2 I don't feel like Isaac's taking this seriously enough. And what I mean by that is you have no job and you're looking on the horizon and the prospects for the war.

Speaker 2 I'm assuming he works in tech, the prospects are going away. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 this is a sell cars. This is a scorched earth.
We're going to live like as though we just lost our job because we did.

Speaker 2 And yes, I I guess I don't think you pay yourself a salary for living expenses, but you cover your living expenses with the severance. And that's what a severance is for, right?

Speaker 2 To pay for the fact that you don't have a job. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think that you're half right. Okay.
And mostly right.

Speaker 1 This is a storm mode situation. So my goal would be to not touch this 150.
He listed out, and there might be some information list missing here.

Speaker 1 He told us how much debt he has, but he didn't allude to the fact that he had any other savings laying around, which makes me think, okay, now's not the time to take this money and pay off a bunch of debt.

Speaker 1 Now's not the time to be walking the baby steps. Now's the time to pause and go, okay, this money's sitting there in case I need it, but let's make sure we don't need it.

Speaker 2 And get up at six o'clock in the morning, go to the grocery store, start working. Yes.
Start bagging groceries, dude. You don't have any money.

Speaker 1 Otherwise, you're going to look at this and it could be a false sense of security. That's exactly.

Speaker 1 And it could cause you to kind of like sit back on your haunches a little bit, wait for the perfect job to roll up as opposed to, no, I'm going to act like this money doesn't exist.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go get it. And, you know, it might take a while, but I've said this to Ken, and this is just my thought.
When you're unemployed, take any job until you can get

Speaker 2 in all jobs, multiple. And when they say like, I'm searching,

Speaker 2 how long does that actually take? Yeah. Like an hour or two hours? Of course, you're going to take time off if you get an interview.
Right, right, right. But you're shooting emails.

Speaker 2 You might be having coffee every once in a while with somebody. You're making phone calls and texts.
Go work and then work on top of that and then work on top of that. You're unemployed.

Speaker 2 You have no job. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because the last thing you want is to feel like the longer you go without a job, the less your self-esteem is there.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 And it just, you go, you bring that into the interview. Yes.

Speaker 2 And you, this sounds so lame, but this is how it works, you guys. I'm sitting here because I gave a talk at a university and one of the

Speaker 2 executives here was dropping her daughter off.

Speaker 2 Show up in other places.

Speaker 2 And it might be that you're bagging groceries in somebody that you used to work with who also took this bath and found a a new job is like bro what are you doing you're like dude i'm i'm taking care of my family and they'd be like i got you so go be seen go bag groceries go drive go get out and take an any kind of job you can get kind of job i might um

Speaker 2 if i have 150 before taxes and you probably take home a hundred 110 000 or whatever that would be i might pay off this five thousand dollar credit card I mean, like maybe clear that if that's all the debt you have.

Speaker 2 And I'd probably try to sell one of these cars because $40,000 total in cars is going to be what, a thousand bucks a month.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he could could get it. He could definitely get out of those cars.

Speaker 1 Definitely. And I'm not mad if you paid off the 5,000, but you definitely don't have to yet.

Speaker 1 But listen, I'm with John.

Speaker 2 Go work and then go work on top of that. Go work.

Speaker 1 And go make do things that cause you to form relationships with people because that's where the opportunities are in the relationships. Yes.
All right. We got Brandon.
He's in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Speaker 1 What's going on, Brandon?

Speaker 3 Hey, thanks for taking the call. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 You're welcome. How can we help?

Speaker 3 I have $140,000 in student loan debt

Speaker 3 and a house payment, a house mortgage of $75,000.

Speaker 3 My wife and I just started on the Ramsey program.

Speaker 3 We're trying our best. I think there's a lot of fear that the mountain's just really big.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the cult, Brandon. You're in good hands, man.
You're in good hands.

Speaker 3 I started having panic attacks, different things. I picked up a second job.

Speaker 3 So working full-time plus a second job, just

Speaker 3 trying to figure out how to get them out and taken care of

Speaker 2 as quick as I can. Are they private? That's the only debt we have.
Are they private? They're Fed? Okay.

Speaker 3 I'm still paying on them because they're in the forbearance right now, so I'm still making payments on them. I've knocked about actually about $10,000 off already.

Speaker 2 That's great. On my student loans.
Good for you. What's the monthly payment combined?

Speaker 1 My monthly payment on the IDR is 182 but I'm putting about like three to four hundred dollars on it I think you're doing everything right as far as these student loans are concerned you you've you've utilized a payment plan to make sure the minimum payment is as low as possible and that allows you to free up all of that extra money to throw out the smallest student loan so are they lump is it all one lump thing or are they individual loans so i have one that's consolidated for like a hundred and one thousand and some change and then individual ones that make up the rest of that total.

Speaker 1 Okay, and you're throwing all the extra money at just the smallest one, right? You're calling it in or you're going on there to make that principal payment?

Speaker 3 I can, on the

Speaker 3 services website, I can dictate.

Speaker 1 Excellent.

Speaker 3 Okay, so it's where the money goes.

Speaker 1 You're doing that exactly right. I wish there was an easy button that I could hit for you.
The only thing that's going to make this, I know, and I wish it was.

Speaker 1 The only thing that makes this go faster is you making a bigger shovel. But even that, I mean, there's going to be a time aspect to this.
But tell us about the panic attacks.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think, Dr. John, I've read your book, and I think the panic attacks are my body doing what it's supposed to, as uncomfortable as it is.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, I wonder if your body's telling you the truth, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 They started years ago when I tried to just shove the debt thing aside and

Speaker 3 forget about it. I mean, I never did did not, I was always making payments.
I never shoved it aside at that point, but it was always something was like, oh, I'll just pay it for the 20 or 25 years and

Speaker 3 be done with it. And then it just kept building and my body was like, which is always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it, it didn't, my body was like, nope, we're not going to wait for the other shoe to drop.

Speaker 2 Good for you, man. What do you do for a living, dude?

Speaker 3 So I work, believe it or not, with panic attacks. I work in community mental health.

Speaker 3 So I'm a community-based mental health worker.

Speaker 2 What's your schedule look like?

Speaker 3 I work about 7 a.m. to 4.30 p.m.

Speaker 3 I'm a salaried employee. There might be times where I might have to work a little bit on weekends, but I try and protect that time as best I can.
So

Speaker 2 can I tell you something? And you're not going to want to hear it, but this is me just trying to help, okay?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I did a lot of my internships at a community mental health program, and they're some of the most amazing people in the world, and I've got a big heart for those programs.

Speaker 2 They also,

Speaker 2 they hire people who are service-oriented, who are in this for something other than the money. And I love that.

Speaker 2 But you can't afford to be doing this right now when

Speaker 2 on the other shoe, you could go do private practice and take $120 of cash and get your loans paid off. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so it might be a season where you go see what that would look like, and I'd probably dip my toes into it and say, on Saturdays, I'm going to do private clients on my own.

Speaker 2 Would they allow you to do that, or have you signed your life away?

Speaker 3 I have not signed my life away. I would be allowed to do that.

Speaker 2 Okay, I would recommend you start going to see clients on Saturdays, all day Saturdays at $100 an hour, do cash or $120 an hour and do cash and begin to build a client list.

Speaker 2 And if in two months and three months, if you're like a lot of good therapists in town, you'll fill up real, real, real fast.

Speaker 2 And you can get up to 100 grand or 150 grand in cash just cooking and then go back to community mental health when your family is in a more secure place.

Speaker 2 You just can't afford to be making 60 grand with that kind of debt right now.

Speaker 1 That's awesome, man. There's like little to no overhead on that.
Yeah. Amazing.
All right, that does it for this hour of the show. Thanks, John, for hosting with me.

Speaker 1 Thank you to the folks in the booth. We'll see you next hour.

Speaker 1 From the Ramsey Network, it's the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me is Dr. John Deloney.
We're going to help you build wealth.

Speaker 1 We're going to teach you how to do the work that you love and create amazing relationships. That's what we do here.

Speaker 1 So if you want to get involved in the conversation we'd love it if you did it's a live call triple eight eight eight eight eight two five five two two five is the number

Speaker 1 i did a lot of eights do that again eight eight eight eight two five five two two five

Speaker 1 it's halloween we got lots of lots of kit cats yeah it was it was spooky the way i said that all right if you want to get involved call the number and uh who's back there christian I can't see you.

Speaker 1 We'll pick you up and get you on the line.

Speaker 2 We got Smooth Jazz, Christian. Smooth Jazz.
I like Smooth Jazz. He He answers the phone all year.

Speaker 1 Is that what you get?

Speaker 2 He's got the best phone answering voice on the planet.

Speaker 1 Interesting. I've never heard that voice, Christian.
Whenever I see you in the hall, it's like, hey, Jade, what's up?

Speaker 2 No, when he answers the phone, he's like, he's like, laid back.

Speaker 1 Okay, good to know. I got Vince.
He's in Indianapolis, Indiana. What's going on, Vince?

Speaker 3 Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call.
You bet.

Speaker 3 So I'm currently working through the baby steps right now, but my question isn't about me. It's for my parents.

Speaker 3 How how do I get them to be gazelle intense and you know start budgeting working through the baby steps you know what can I do to get them on board listen when you find out tell me because

Speaker 2 write that book you'll make a billion dollars

Speaker 2 and hey your second book will be how to tell teach my parents about sex oh man the two things that no parent wants to hear from their kid about is get lectured on is money and sex so tell me what what is happening that has landed you here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I mean, I just

Speaker 3 sat down with them earlier this week just to kind of get a financial picture for them and what their retirement is going to look like. They're both 53 right now.

Speaker 3 So they've got another 10 years or so before they retire.

Speaker 2 If they can

Speaker 3 about 100 grand in debt,

Speaker 3 100 grand on a mortgage. And to my knowledge, I'd say they probably have around $800 in retirement.

Speaker 1 Okay, and what do they make?

Speaker 3 My dad told me that they're around the $200,000 mark, which is, you know, a lot of money. Yeah, they're doing great.

Speaker 1 They're doing good. I mean, the truth is, this

Speaker 1 lump sum is going to double every seven years. So this $800 at some point is going to be $1.6, and on down the line, it'll double again.

Speaker 2 They have a house.

Speaker 3 Yes, they do. They have about $350,000 in it, and they said they can sell it for $4.50.

Speaker 2 So your parents, for all intents and purposes, your dad and mom are millionaires, right?

Speaker 3 Almost, I think. Yeah, I think if you tacked on the debt, it'd be just shy of it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 But obviously, you know, that's got to last them 20 years in retirement.

Speaker 2 Did you call the financial picture meeting, or did your mom or dad call it?

Speaker 3 You know, I kind of called it just to

Speaker 3 make sure that, you know, they're going to be okay.

Speaker 2 okay good for you for having the courage to do that and good on them for sitting down and walking you through where they where they are most parents wouldn't do that so that's that's pretty cool situation you found yourself in good for you here here's the truth um

Speaker 1 in 2021 years they're going to have 6.4 million dollars

Speaker 1 doing nothing different all right and they're in their 50s so that puts them in their 70s They're they're what I would call normal in that way of, hey, we're they're clearly putting aside in their retirement but they're also carrying debt right that's kind of the normal american way to their point to the and to their credit at least they've continued to save in retirement and so um i i'm with you yeah i i want them to pay off the hundred thousand dollars of debt i want them to be mortgage free before they retire uh i don't know if you I don't know that you will be able to convince them to do that.

Speaker 1 I like that you're thinking about that. But either way,

Speaker 1 what I thought you were going to call and say is if my parents don't get their life together, I'm gonna be on the hook for taking care of them, but I don't think you're gonna be

Speaker 1 because I think they're gonna have plenty of money to be able to float what they're doing. It's not gonna, it could be more peaceful to your point, but I think they're gonna be okay

Speaker 1 because they'll be able to live off the interest that this floats off.

Speaker 2 Uh,

Speaker 1 John,

Speaker 1 what can he do?

Speaker 2 I mean, here's our, here's what I'm gonna do for you, Vince. Um, we're gonna give you a copy.
We're gonna give you a, I think it's a digital link here to Financial Peace University. Okay.

Speaker 2 And it's all nine lessons. I'm going to hook you up with it.
And I want you to share that with your parents.

Speaker 2 And all you, all you have to do is say, hey, dad, mom, it really means a lot to me that y'all, y'all sat down and walked me through the finances here.

Speaker 2 Most moms and dads won't do that or they can't do that because they don't even have their house in order even no.

Speaker 2 Thank y'all for doing that.

Speaker 2 This is something that's meant a lot to me. It would mean a lot to me if y'all listen to this, if y'all watch these videos.
That's it.

Speaker 2 And if your dad wants to ask you questions, cool.

Speaker 2 He's probably not. He's, like I say, he's got a million dollars, right?

Speaker 2 He's probably feeling pretty good. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so he's probably got a plan, and that plan is different than yours. We're going to love him anyway.
And what we're going to do is we're going to live consistently, and we are going to

Speaker 2 reverberate peace. We're going to eat anxiety at the dinner table, at Thanksgiving, at Christmas.
And eventually your family members will ask,

Speaker 2 hey, can we go for a walk? Tell me about what you're doing.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 But we'll give it to you and you can give it a shot, but I think it's done fully, respectfully, and with gratitude for the, the, the transparency with which they met with you earlier.

Speaker 2 Um, but don't get your feelings hurt if they say no. Um, and I want you just to keep living with the

Speaker 2 values and principles that you believe in.

Speaker 1 It's good for you. Yeah.
Thank you for the call. That's tough.
I mean, what I thought he was going to say was

Speaker 1 what he ended up saying was a lot better because so many times we get the call where it's like, listen, my parents have misbehaved with money. I'm in my 40s.
I've got my own kids.

Speaker 1 I've got my own kids who are going to college. And they're hitting the age where

Speaker 1 it's like it will all hit the fan at the same time, right? Right. When my kids are going to college is right about the time that my parents are going to be going to social security age.

Speaker 1 Social security is not going to be enough. They're going to be hitting me up for funds.
Right.

Speaker 1 And when you see that oncoming train, you want to have that talk with your parents to say, hey, let's talk because I don't want to be on the hook for this. I can't afford to be on the hook for this.

Speaker 1 But then to your point, John, you have to deal with the fact that they're not having it a lot of times. They're thinking, This is my life.
I don't have to tell you what I'm doing with my money.

Speaker 1 Who are you to tell me? What

Speaker 1 that is a very difficult situation.

Speaker 1 And, parents, if you're listening, please don't do that because it's in many ways. It's not that they're trying to control you.
It's not that they're trying to tell you what to do.

Speaker 1 They're trying to get themselves in order.

Speaker 2 That's right. That's right.
And

Speaker 2 I think any

Speaker 2 30 or 40-year-old person who's got any sort of thinking about tomorrow in their mind and spirit is thinking about, am I going to have to care of my parents? Yeah. I wonder what that's like.

Speaker 2 Are they going to have to move in? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like you mentioned, oh man, we're going to hit college right when they're hitting their late 70s. And I'm hearing more and more, Jade,

Speaker 2 that this, the boomer generation owns a big chunk of the real estate with a ton of equity in these homes. That's right.
But they're saying, I'm not moving. This is my house.

Speaker 1 And why would they? The interest rate, I mean,

Speaker 2 but it's like, oh, your nest egg's in this house. Yeah.
And you're like, yeah, I ain't moving, though. Like, you're going to help out with groceries?

Speaker 2 And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, that's why we have this.

Speaker 1 I ain't moving.

Speaker 1 Well, and then the painful part of that is it's, and forgive me if this sounds any sort of way, but it's like, if all the equity is tied up in that nest egg and you're thinking, okay, like, you know, when they pass away, this is going to the family.

Speaker 1 But then if they have a bunch of debt and you also know, like, not only is it, but the debt is going to eat up that estate,

Speaker 1 that is just like, oh.

Speaker 1 So. Parents, if you can, I know it's tough, but if you're in your 50s and you're, your kids are sniffing around trying to get information, they're not trying to to tell you what to do.

Speaker 1 They're not trying to get up in your grill. They're just, we just want to make sure we are planning.

Speaker 2 Invite your kids over for dinner and tell them about your financial situation. Tell us.

Speaker 1 We want to know, do you have life insurance? How much? We want to know what you have in your 401k. We just, we want to help us.
We're trying to help us by knowing about you. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 You're listening to the Ramsey Show. Thanks for hanging out with us.
I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me is Dr.
John Deloney. We are your hosts for this hour.

Speaker 1 Something exciting coming up.

Speaker 1 We're heading into the fall and you all know that before you know it, it's going to be Thanksgiving and then it's going to be Christmas and then it's going to be New Year's.

Speaker 1 And if you're not careful, your money can go down a slippery, slippery slope, John.

Speaker 1 But we're here to help you. We're doing a series of webinars and we've been doing them a couple of months here to make sure that you have everything you need not to lose control.

Speaker 1 And so join Rachel Cruz and the Every Dollar team. We're doing a free live training.
This one is Monday, November 4th at 1 p.m.,

Speaker 1 12 p.m. Central Time.
This is your lunch break, right? I just got off of one and it's great. There's so many people on there.
Over

Speaker 1 100,000 people have registered over the lifetime of these events and people love them. If it's your first time, you can do it.

Speaker 1 If you've been to a couple before, but you still have more questions, you can still sign up.

Speaker 1 And by the way, if you're not available right at that time, still sign up because you can watch it later on when you are available.

Speaker 1 And so the way to register is you you just go to ramseysolutions.com slash webinar and this that's it we'll provide the rest this is the number one way guys for you to eliminate your debt this is the number one way for you to learn to build wealth the number one way for you to get on the same space page as your spouse and the number one way for you to eliminate stress it all starts with the budget so get help with what you need these every dollar webinars are popping off again that's monday november 4th at lunchtime we'll see you there all right john you ready to go to these phones let's do it's go out to harrisburg Pennsylvania, and talk to Shannon.

Speaker 2 What's up, Shannon?

Speaker 3 Hi. Thanks so much for chatting today.
I very much appreciate all of the advice we've gotten from you and FPU over all these years. So it's great to talk to you.

Speaker 2 Thank you so, so much. How can we help?

Speaker 3 So my husband and I are 54.

Speaker 3 We are debt-free, except our mortgage, which will hopefully kick off

Speaker 3 next summer.

Speaker 2 Wow. Congrats.

Speaker 3 Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 So we have three children. Our oldest is halfway through college and doing well.
I'm sorry, our youngest. But our oldest is 25.
He's also a college grad.

Speaker 3 He's got a great job, works with Excel.

Speaker 3 He's a numbers guy. And he's paid off all of his student loans that he had.
He's a great saver.

Speaker 3 He's thriving by pretty much any measurement you put out there

Speaker 3 on paper.

Speaker 3 He lives with us still,

Speaker 3 not because he couldn't live on his own necessarily, but he has autism.

Speaker 3 And by staying with us, he stays connected socially and emotionally, which is definitely in his best interest, but not something he would necessarily do on his own.

Speaker 3 We think at some point down the road, he will likely move out on his own, but as much in his life has been, it's just kind of on a later track.

Speaker 3 So we're trying to think through how best to help him be well positioned for that independence when the time comes,

Speaker 3 personally and financially. And I would welcome any guidance or input you have on us helping him be well set and think through those things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, kudos to you all. It sounds like you all have done a lot of work and walked alongside him

Speaker 2 in the places where he's accelerated past those who would be inside

Speaker 2 the normed age of development and those times when it's been slower, right? And it's just taken more time to get there. So good for you guys.

Speaker 2 Over the course of my career, I've worked with graduate students. I've worked with law students.
I've worked with any number of students who are somewhere on the spectrum.

Speaker 2 And in fact, where I went to grad school,

Speaker 2 connected to the College of Education where I was in,

Speaker 2 the Burkhart School for Autism was there. And it was a magical place where I saw them do some amazing things with young people

Speaker 2 transitioning in and out. I think the

Speaker 2 here's some, I can just throw it out there, and only you will know where your son falls in terms of where his spectrum disorder is and how he does socially.

Speaker 2 Let me ask you this one question before I start just throwing things out there. If he finds himself alone,

Speaker 2 meaning like you go out you guys go out of town for a week, does he end up just watching YouTube over and over again or watching videos over and over again or playing video games over and over again?

Speaker 3 That is certainly his bent.

Speaker 3 When we have gone out of town,

Speaker 3 we'll have like

Speaker 3 friends or family kind of check in and make sure he gets invited to dinner or to movies or something so that he's not

Speaker 3 either working or being on a video game.

Speaker 2 Okay, yeah, I'm hearing that more and more that young professionals who are on the spectrum disorder at some place,

Speaker 2 on the spectrum someplace,

Speaker 2 the allure and the way they've engineered these screens and social devices in the games,

Speaker 2 it's like their brains have been hacked. And it's tough for any of us, much less somebody with some sort of processing challenge.

Speaker 2 So I would recommend this.

Speaker 2 One, and this is a hard thing. This isn't me indicting you.
This is just my experience working with parents. You and your husband, y'all check yourselves first.

Speaker 2 Sometimes, not always, but sometimes letting go of the leash a little bit or a lot

Speaker 2 robs a parent who has spent their whole life advocating and defending and fighting for their kids with special needs or exceptionalities or specific challenges. It robs them of their identity.

Speaker 2 And so make sure that when that you and your husband are intentionally together and you're intentional about feeling that loss, that sense of purpose as you let him go into the world.

Speaker 2 The second thing is I would get with a,

Speaker 2 ABA usually works with younger kids, but I'd find any sort of group or any sort of connection where he can begin what I would call a,

Speaker 2 this is the wrong language, but some sort of outpatient where he can go hang out with some guys in the evenings,

Speaker 2 hang out with different groups in in the evenings. You might host them at your house, but we just want a group of people that he's going to be able to stay connected to.

Speaker 2 And then you guys are going to watch that closely. And for some students, they fly.
I mean, it's just been, I remember it was amazing.

Speaker 2 There was one group of students at the Burkhart Center that got involved with the theater department and they were a part of theater performances that unlocked parts of it. It was magic.

Speaker 2 I would sat there and wept through the whole all these shows.

Speaker 2 And then there's some students who, at 28, 29, 30 years old, just slowly loop their way back to watching YouTube 12 hours a night and then never sleeping until they collapse. Right.

Speaker 2 And so you will truly come to know your kid over time with space and distance, with intentionality after you're out. And it might be that he's never fully on his own.

Speaker 2 It might be that he, part of a special needs trust after you're gone, will get him a garage apartment in one of his brothers and sisters' houses

Speaker 2 or in like an extended care kind of place.

Speaker 2 But I think it's you guys just facing that reality head on.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 On the financial side, like I said, he has a great job. He is a phenomenal saver.

Speaker 3 So what are some ways that

Speaker 3 beyond us considering a special needs trust?

Speaker 3 we have him set up.

Speaker 3 He started a Roth

Speaker 3 IRA this year.

Speaker 3 What might be some other ways that we can encourage him, even as he is such a saver, to be making that investment in his future?

Speaker 1 I think a lot of the things that you would do for yourself, you just transfer it and teach him how to do it.

Speaker 1 So if you're a proponent of the baby steps, then we're teaching that same method of managing those finances.

Speaker 1 The fact that you're doing Roth IRA is great. If you max that out, then now we're going to a brokerage account.

Speaker 1 And so having that money there, does he make enough that if he were able to live on his own, that he could?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's great. I think at that point, you're managing the funds the same way you would.
You're teaching about how to budget.

Speaker 1 We're saying, this is how much we're spending and we're giving every dollar a name. And then we're going and saying, okay, beyond that, what are we investing for? Are we going to buy a place?

Speaker 1 Is there going to be a property that he lives at? And you guys are, again, with the social things, I think John has given you a good construct there.

Speaker 1 But I think if you find that there's a time where he moves on and out of your house, I think it's great to have those assets in his name.

Speaker 1 And then all of that stuff can transfer to, you know, him when the time comes and his care.

Speaker 2 Or maybe a brother or sister that's got their name on the accounts too, just in case they need to step in. But also, I always want to lean in the direction that's opposite of my kid's natural bent.

Speaker 2 Special needs are not. And so if I have a kid that's a natural spender, I'm going to teach them really,

Speaker 2 I'm going to let them watch me save. And if I have a natural saver that's just obsessed with saving, I'm going to show them the joy of spending money every once in a while and the joy of giving.

Speaker 2 So, and your kid will be none of the different. Congratulations.

Speaker 1 You're listening to The Ramsey Show. I'm Jade.
Next to me is Dr. John.
We're taking your calls this hour. Get involved.
888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Hey, has there ever been something money related and you're like, I know I should know this, but I don't. Like, I've been on this planet for a long time and I should know.
what the lingo is.

Speaker 1 I should know the jargon, but I just don't. And you're embarrassed to ask.

Speaker 2 That's me every day on this show.

Speaker 1 So we started a new segment here, asking for a friend. And listen,

Speaker 1 I'll be honest, I may have been one of these people that for the longest, I was really confused about what comes out of your paycheck when you get paid.

Speaker 2 I still, I'm not confused. I just get mad.
Listen,

Speaker 1 I know I'm not the only one. And when I saw this clip, I was like, that is, that is me.
Take a look at this.

Speaker 3 My first paycheck.

Speaker 3 Look at the window. There's my name.
Hi, me!

Speaker 3 God, isn't this exciting?

Speaker 2 I earned this.

Speaker 1 I wiped tables for it.

Speaker 2 I steamed milk for it, and it was totally

Speaker 1 not worth it.

Speaker 1 Who's FICA?

Speaker 2 Why is he getting all my money?

Speaker 1 Relatable. That's so true.
Like, you look at your paycheck. I mean, it happens all the time here.
People call and I'm like, how much do you make? They're like, I make $100,000 a year.

Speaker 1 But then, like, by the time what they actually take home after.

Speaker 2 It's become $11.

Speaker 2 So, it's fine to me. I get madder now when I hit potholes.
I'm like, no, no, no, you took my money, you fixed the potholes.

Speaker 1 Well, let's talk about what is it? Like, what's happening with this payroll tax? What is FICA

Speaker 1 asking for a friend? You know, some of you are going to be today years old when you figure this out. But it's basically these, this is Federal Insurance Contributions Act, right?

Speaker 1 This is, that's what FICA stands for. This is what you're required to pay into basically as an American citizen.

Speaker 1 It says the FICA tax, also known as just payroll tax, just refers to taxes that employers and employees have to pay. And these are programs like Social Security and Medicare, right?

Speaker 1 And when you, when that money goes out of your check to fund those programs, it's funding them in real time. It's not like I'm just setting this aside for me for later.
It's for everybody.

Speaker 1 It goes into a big pool for everybody.

Speaker 1 And so big picture is when you pay those FICA taxes, your money just goes into that big pool, a big fund, and it's for whoever's currently receiving Social social security whoever's currently receiving medicare that's why we say all the time to people like hey go on ahead and fund your own retirement because you don't know what social security will be when your time comes i think they're really clearly telling us it's not going to be very much

Speaker 2 i mean i feel like they're like we don't know and they're like we're going to run out of money it's like yeah but we don't know i just want to know what happens if we do i want my refund back because i've been paying

Speaker 1 you right so ficatax it breaks down into two categories like i said you've got the social security and then you've got the medicare And if you're wondering, like, how much is this?

Speaker 1 So for employers, you're withholding 6.2. They're taking 6.2% of your taxable gross,

Speaker 1 which is. it can be pretty high depending on how much you make.
But and then they take that and they match your contribution. So 6.2 on your end, 6.2 on their end, and it goes into that big pool.

Speaker 1 And then for Medicare, it's 1.45%

Speaker 1 of your taxable wages. And again, they match that.
Now, the kicker is if you are like self-employed, you pay both sides because you're the employer and the employee. And that hurts like,

Speaker 2 especially when you're trying to get a small business off the bus. Man, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I remember my mother-in-law, she always helped us with our taxes because she's a

Speaker 1 bookkeeper. And when she explained that to me for the first time back in the day, I was like, my jaw was on the floor.
I was like, it's so much money.

Speaker 1 But, you know, even if you're self-employed, you still got to pay old Mr. FICA.
So freelancers, like I said, independent contractors, self-employed workers, they're required to pay both ends.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so, again, just make sure to plan.
Yes, you can't stop it. It is the force of the government.
There's nothing you can do. You got to pay it, but at least you know what it is.

Speaker 1 And if you were so excited to earn your paycheck, and then when you looked at it, it was a little bit less. That's probably where it went.

Speaker 1 For more information about taxes, go ahead and visit ramseysolutions.com slash taxes, or you can click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast.

Speaker 2 And think about this. If you're like, wait a minute, 6%, like, that's not very much.
I pay way more than that. This is not state income tax and federal income tax.

Speaker 2 This is just the other numbers. Yeah.

Speaker 1 This is just Social Security and Medicare. That's right.
That's it.

Speaker 2 And I love, Dave said this once, and it never occurred to me. He said the greatest scam the government ever pulled was automatic deduction.
Facts.

Speaker 2 He said, if you had to write, and honestly, when it comes to like Medicare, like taking care of the least of these in our communities, I don't think that would be the uproar.

Speaker 2 I think the uproar would be that state and federal tax. If we had to write a check every month and give it a

Speaker 1 government,

Speaker 2 I think the average U.S. citizen would be much more...
No, I don't think we would get, I don't think we'd be where we are

Speaker 2 because it wouldn't be this money that just out of sight out of minds and just given to a small group of people who just do whatever they want to with it.

Speaker 2 I think people would be much more invested as citizens.

Speaker 2 Like, you're going to take my money, you're going to demand it legally from me, then I'm going to demand my voice be heard with how you spend that.

Speaker 1 I mean, they basically tapped into what we say all the time about credit cards, which is when there's no friction,

Speaker 1 you don't feel it. And you're like, yeah, take my money.
I'm fine with it.

Speaker 2 Then they came up with scam number two, which is every year, some of y'all were going to send you some of your money back, and you're going to think you won something. Right.

Speaker 2 They're going to think you scratched something off and got it.

Speaker 1 Isn't that crazy? We think that we're getting like a treat or a prize when really they've just.

Speaker 2 They held our money interest-free.

Speaker 1 Interest-free.

Speaker 2 By the way, they lint it out and are making money off of it. Right.

Speaker 1 Right. They're making interest off our money.
Listen, we could go on and on all day. Maybe we should, John.

Speaker 2 Nope. Let's go out to Phoenix, AZ, where it's still 1,000 degrees, even though it's October, and talk to Scott.
What's up, Scott?

Speaker 3 All right. Thanks for taking the call.
How are you guys?

Speaker 2 You got it. Bro, what's happening to your weather out there?

Speaker 3 It's actually really nice right now.

Speaker 2 Did it finally break? It's been long.

Speaker 2 So we're good. Wow.
Well, that's good to hear. How can we help, man?

Speaker 3 Well, we're looking to replace replace our family minivan, and I'm debating how much to spend and whether or not I'd feel okay buying something new, which is something I've always thought I wouldn't do.

Speaker 3 And I can hear Dave in my head talking about how much a new car depreciates as soon as you drive it off the lot. So I'm just trying to balance being responsible and not being a cheapskate.

Speaker 1 I love that. I love that Dave's voice lives rent-free in so many Americans.

Speaker 1 Head. Okay, well, tell us what it is, and we can tell you if it's a good idea or not, or at least point you in the right direction.
So, what are you thinking of getting? What does it cost?

Speaker 3 We're looking at the 2025 Kia Carnival, which was just updated, and I'm expecting it to be around $52,000 or so.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 Previously, we were looking at the 22 to 24 models, and this is going to be 10 or 12,000 beyond that.

Speaker 2 So, a 2024 would be what, 40?

Speaker 3 Yeah, like about 40 was what we were planning.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 My wife is at home with the kids full-time, but she's a rock star and still brings in an income, too. And she's just been saving up like nearly all of her income for a while.

Speaker 3 So she saved up like $38,000. So we were going to pay cash for it.
Then we started looking at the newer one.

Speaker 3 And then I actually fortuitously happened to get a bonus. So we actually do have the money that we could pay cash.
I'm

Speaker 3 trying to get over the mental barrier of the depreciation and and of the new one.

Speaker 1 Well, let's walk through that a little bit. So you've got cash.
There's a couple boxes we need to check to get the green light. So you've got cash.
That's good.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about what your combined income is. What do you and her make together? Because again, this needs to be no more than half of your

Speaker 1 annual salary,

Speaker 1 give or take. So what do you guys bring in?

Speaker 3 Yeah, together it's about $190 or so. Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay. So we're firing on that cylinder.
Well, how much is your car worth?

Speaker 3 Maybe $8,000 to $9,000.

Speaker 1 Okay. So we got a checkbox there.
Now, if you're talking about doing this 2025 as a brand new vehicle, you know what has to be in place next, don't you?

Speaker 3 All the insurance and registration that goes into that, that's way more too.

Speaker 1 Yes, but there's something quite critical to buying a brand new car. You need to have a million dollar net worth.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's good.

Speaker 1 And here's why. Here's why.
And this answers the question that you're talking about.

Speaker 1 When When we're talking about this depreciating asset, you've got to basically be okay with putting that money right in the center of your living room and burning it and saying, I could care less that this thing is going to lose 60% of its value in the next three to four years.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the million dollars is an arbitrary number, but it's right. It's a good, it's a good, like, like it checks you.

Speaker 1 It checks your gut. It's a gut check to go, how.

Speaker 1 How much can I really afford this? How meaningless is this money to me?

Speaker 2 Right. And donating 20 or 30 grand to the car dealership

Speaker 2 Over a couple years.

Speaker 1 The truth is, if you have a million dollar net worth, all boxes and all roads lead to you being able to do this. That's right.
But if you don't, you need to go with the 2024 and pay cash.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show, helping you with your life, your money, your relationships, your career. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me today, the doctor's in the house, Dr. John Deloney.
What up?

Speaker 1 How's it going in your world?

Speaker 2 We're, dude, I'm, I'm, we are busy, busy, busy. We had a wild and adventurous money of marriage this past weekend, and it was off the hook, dude.
You spoke at it.

Speaker 2 It was the deepest and probably most impactful thing I've ever been a part of. Yeah?

Speaker 1 Yeah. What you got right there?

Speaker 2 I got these questions for humans, the intimacy deck. They actually sold out on campus.
They're gone. You can get them online now.
I'm waiting for our own new shipment back.

Speaker 2 This is the only deck that exists in this

Speaker 2 building, but it's just questions about sex and intimacy and connection and communication and couples trying to find their ways back to each other with all the anxiousness and schools and games and stuff and stuff and things we got to do.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 just sit down across the table and get to know each other again.

Speaker 1 I like it. I'll be getting a dick.
All right, let's go to the phone lines. We got Wes, Evansville, Indiana is where he's at.
What's going on, Wes?

Speaker 3 Hey, guys. How you doing? I appreciate the time.

Speaker 2 You got it, Wes. What's up, man?

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. So this may be,

Speaker 3 oh, man, maybe a question for more of a counselor, and I might need some serious therapy, but let me lay it out here for you. If you can give me just a second, Go for it.

Speaker 3 So I feel like I got a couple problems

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 basically they deal with internal conflict within myself. I feel like I got a value disorder, meaning

Speaker 2 I'm seeking... Lay it out there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 So I feel like I'm seeking

Speaker 3 comfort while I'm trying to seek my dreams in my business. I obviously got a money problem, debt versus cash flow, and then a self-belief.
So let me lay it out here. I'm 35.

Speaker 3 I'm divorced. I got two kids living at home with me over half the time.
I started

Speaker 3 a window cleaning business 12 weeks ago, and I've made $12,000 in 12 weeks. My expenses are about $5,000 a month, and I make $4,000 a month as of like what I've shared with you.

Speaker 3 I got 32 bucks in the bank. I'm behind on two credit cards, my light bill and my mortgage as of 30 days ago.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 here's where I'm basically looking for some counsel here.

Speaker 3 I'm kind of frozen in time with building this business and getting gazelle intense

Speaker 3 because of

Speaker 3 where I'm at financially. And so

Speaker 3 I'm struggling with getting gazelle intense to climb myself out of my hole

Speaker 3 with my business of my own.

Speaker 3 I'm a one-man show, and basically I'm at a place where I'm considering

Speaker 3 getting a debt relief company to do their thing.

Speaker 2 No, we're not going to do that. We're going to do that.
I'm going to pick my bills. All right, Wes.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Hold on. Yeah, go ahead.
Did I hear you right?

Speaker 2 You make $4,000 a month, but it costs $5,000 a month to run this thing?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so there's basically my expenses. There's hardly any overhead.
I'm a one-man show going door-to-door, getting window cleaning businesses and home services gigs.

Speaker 2 But how does it

Speaker 3 make probably $200?

Speaker 2 How does it cost $5,000 a month in expenses?

Speaker 1 Is that just business or is that your personal stuff rolled in?

Speaker 3 It's basically all personal

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 3 there's really no

Speaker 3 overhead.

Speaker 1 Like I'm banging on doors and so to clarify, to clarify, you're going out, you're hitting the pavement, you're making $4,000, you're pocketing it all as income. You're one-man show, that's fine.

Speaker 1 But to run your personal life

Speaker 1 is $5,000. Your personal budget is $5,000 a month.
So you're $1,000 deficit every month.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so give or take, $4,600 one month.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And how do you account for it?

Speaker 1 Does it go on a credit card? What do you do

Speaker 1 when you're at a loss?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I

Speaker 3 well, it's only been 12 weeks,

Speaker 3 but I'm behind on those

Speaker 3 three cents.

Speaker 2 So you just don't pay them.

Speaker 1 You're just not paying them. But are you putting more debt on a credit card? Is what I'm asking.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm maxed out everywhere, so I don't don't really have anywhere to go.

Speaker 2 I'm kind of at a place where

Speaker 3 my credit's toast. I can't get any more.
Okay, okay. I just need to put energy into this thing.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not it.
That's not it, dude.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 How long ago was your divorce?

Speaker 3 So it finished

Speaker 3 about a year and a half ago.

Speaker 2 Is that still hanging around your neck?

Speaker 3 It was a crazy divorce.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 it's trauma, man. It was crazy.
it was a circus

Speaker 2 it was but i'm talking about is

Speaker 2 sit with me for a second

Speaker 2 uh-huh you back and forth you toggle to keep yourself safe from the past and oh my gosh it's crazy to the future it's all coming down i want you to sit right here in the middle right here in the middle

Speaker 2 is it still weighing on you that the person you said i'd do the mother of your kids that y'all had to blow up like this

Speaker 3 yeah i mean i'm still i'm still kind of hoping that we can kind of fix it.

Speaker 2 Okay, you got to let that go.

Speaker 2 Are you dating again?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 here's the thing. I think you have a core reality problem.

Speaker 2 Okay. I don't think it's.

Speaker 3 Like I said, value disorder.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, but it's not a value disorder.
It's that you want things to be a you want to be your own boss. You want to be a present dad.

Speaker 2 You want to re-get together with the ex-wife that blew your life up. You want to do all this stuff all at the same time.

Speaker 3 I do. I want to do it all now.

Speaker 2 I know, but in the meantime, math is working against you because math doesn't care what your dreams are. It doesn't care what pain you've been through.
It just keeps doing math.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 it keeps doing math.

Speaker 2 You're getting further and further and further behind. And your kids absorb that tension in your house.
And you want to have a different mindset. People think

Speaker 2 they can just think their way to confidence. Confidence is built through

Speaker 2 you can't. You got to go do.
And dude, you're grinding and I'm proud of you. You're making four grand a month on a brand new business.
That's amazing. And you can't eat on four grand a month.

Speaker 2 No, dude, it's, it's been a bummer. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so here's what I want you to do. I want you to not think about, okay, I got to grind here.

Speaker 2 I want you just to exhale and sit in reality. And most people, most of the time, myself included when you have to face reality you have to grieve it for a minute

Speaker 2 that woman's gone

Speaker 2 this job this dream we have of going all in it's not a right moment right now

Speaker 2 i wanted my kids all the time i only get them half the time that's exhale and then i'm gonna go get a regular boring bummer job where I'm throwing boxes somewhere, but I've got health insurance and I'm making X number of dollars an hour.

Speaker 2 And then I'm also knocking on doors and putting up flyers and washing windows when I can to get this thing going.

Speaker 2 And you're going to find out that the life of a solopreneur is wall to wall 24-7, 365 until it finally takes off, if it ever does. Right?

Speaker 2 And then your kids are going to have this ringside seat to a dad that got his knees capped in a divorce, but he got back up and he started grinding and he was still a person of integrity and character.

Speaker 2 And you're going to wake up in two years and three years.

Speaker 2 You're going to be really, really confident, not because you thought your way to some mindset moogly boogly, but because you just went and did the next right thing.

Speaker 3 And the next right thing is.

Speaker 2 You got to make enough money to eat.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 how many hours are you putting into this every month,

Speaker 1 every week?

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's where it gets embarrassing because I'm putting about 20 hours in, but the rest of it, the time, I just can't get myself to move. I'm frozen.

Speaker 1 Okay, then let that dream dream go the thing is if you here's the thing though if you're putting 20 hours a week into this and you're making four thousand dollars imagine if you

Speaker 2 that's why I think yeah

Speaker 2 so why don't you want to do it yeah yeah yeah

Speaker 1 what's causing you to not do the other 20 hours

Speaker 3 That's where my value disorder comes in, the seeking comfort versus the dream. Because I mean, it's hard stinking work.

Speaker 3 I'm good at what I do, man. I can get jobs every day I go out.

Speaker 2 Do this. I got to clean it up.
It's not a value disorder. It's not a diagnostic.
Don't call it that.

Speaker 3 What is it?

Speaker 2 I just need to figure it out. Here it is.
There's nothing to figure out. It's a choice.

Speaker 2 I like this work.

Speaker 2 I want to make this solopreneur thing work.

Speaker 2 I don't like this work, and I'm not going to do the solopreneur thing.

Speaker 2 It's just a choice you have to make.

Speaker 1 Or you go and pick up another job for the other 20 hours. But either way, you got to work.
As an adult, we have to go to work. That's it.

Speaker 2 It's not a disorder. It's not a thing.
It's just, it is, you got to make a choice. Do I want to do this job or not? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And Jade, you and I, we have on the outside, it looks like a mate, the dream job. These jobs are hard.
You and I

Speaker 2 get frustrated. There's a lot of hours.
It's early. It's late.
I'm wearing makeup right now for crying out like

Speaker 2 it's a whole thing, right?

Speaker 2 Every job's got hard, hard, hard seasons.

Speaker 2 Every job does.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You got to decide: is the hard season worth the work, man?

Speaker 1 That's it. This is the Ramsey Show.