You Should Be Furious at Your Debt!

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host.
Thank you for joining us America. We're glad you're here.
Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, host of the Ken Coleman Show on the Ramsey Network. He's going to help us talk about work and careers and making money while we walk on all sides of your life.
And he's my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.
That's 888-825-5225. John in Dallas starts this hour.
Hey, John, what's up? Hey, how's it going? Hey, how can we help? Hey, so, uh, a negative in a car loan that I would like to get out of, um, the loan is about $50,000 right now. Um, and the quotes I've been getting are somewhere around 43 to 44.
And the quotes you got were from who? One was from Jeep. I think the other was from CarMax.
Okay. All right.
So what kind of car is it, Jeep? Yeah, it's a Jeep. Okay, cool.
What is the exact payoff?

Have you called and gotten that? Yeah, it's a $50,460-something. Cool, all right.
Well, there are three numbers when you get ready to sell a car that you can look at. What you were given was a wholesale number or a trade-in value.
So if Jeep or CarMax buys that car for $43,000, that tells me that they can sell that car for more than that, and that's why they're buying it. They're adding inventory to their lot, and obviously their goal is to make a profit when they sell a car off of their lot.
So if they buy it for $43,000, they're going to put it on the market over there around $47,000 there around 47 or 48, whatever, something like that. Does that make sense? Yes.
Second number is a private sale number, which is an individual selling to another individual. That would be the number you need.
And you can get that at Kelly blue book, KBB.com or go to Edmunds car guide. Either one help you get that number.
Matter of fact, you gotta look at both of them and compare them and what you think you should put it on the market for at trader.com or go to Edmunds car guide either one of them help you get that number matter of fact you ought to look at both of them and compare them and see what you think you should put it on the market for at trader.com or craigslist or facebook marketplace or wherever it is you want to sell your car to another individual the third number is a retail number which is what the jeep dealership is going to put the car on the lot for because they are a retail establishment you don't have that option option because you don't have a car lot. It's not illegal for you to get that much money for it.
It's just unlikely you're going to get that much money for it. So I think your car is probably worth $47,000.
I might be wrong, but when you look it up, you're probably going to find it to be about something like that. Who do you owe the $50,000 to? It's Chrysler Financial.
The issue that I have seen, though, is right now it seems like the same Jeeps on the lot brand new are going for $46,000 or $47,000. You got something wrong because they would not have offered you $43,000 for it because your Jeep is used.
Yeah, I war a warranty with it i don't know if that that's great you you did a uh it's horrible but it's great news for this situation so when you pay off the jeep and sell it early they will give you a partial refund for that upfront purchase on that warranty that's probably worth a couple of grand but listen to me carefully okay the chance that jeep the jeep dealer will pay 43 for a used jeep that they have to sell for 43 is zero and if they're selling the exact same jeep for 48 one of your numbers is wrong because it doesn't add up i mean if the actual exact same jeep selling for 48 it would make sense a used one like yours is selling for less agreed agreed and if they're going to resell yours after they buy it from you they're going to make a profit so if that's selling for 48 and 46 is the used Jeep or $45 is what the used Jeep is,

they're offering you less than $43.

So you got something else going on here.

You're trying to figure out some way you're trapped and you're not.

So how bad is your credit?

Mid-600s.

I filed for bankruptcy maybe like four years ago, right, when the pandemic started. Yeah.
So your credit sucks. Okay.
Yeah. Um, so what you've got to do is you have to find the difference.
Let's pretend that you can sell the car for 47. Like I'm saying, then you need the $3,000 difference, $3,400 difference.
You've got to come up with that money either in cash or you got to borrow it. That's why I was asking about your credit.
And if you go borrow $5,000, buy you a $2,000 car and write a check for the difference on this, when someone else buys the car, then you're out of it and you're free. Um, but that's what you're going to have to do.
Cause this thing's strangling you with an $850 payment. It's beaten the snot out of you.
And if you're like me, John, when I've done stuff like this, every time I write that check, I feel dumber. Every time.
Just the very act of doing it, Ken. Yeah.
And I would say there needs to be some intensity on this. Intensity on everything that Dave laid out, your three options.
Intensity to sell something, go make some extra money, attack this thing so that when you sell it, whatever gap you have there, you're able to get a beater or something else and put this thing behind you. But this has got to be handled with intensity.
It really does. If you're still sitting around paying $850 payment six months from now because you haven't taken action, then you just keep hitting yourself.
You're just beating the snot out of yourself every day. so the faster you get out of this the less damage it's going to because let me tell you 100 of the time jeeps go down in value so the longer you hold it the wider the gap is going to be right now the gap is the least it's ever going to be that's exactly right so ken is smart he's telling you the telling you the truth.
You got to get out of this thing. You got to get fired up about this and go like, my hair is on fire.
This matters. I got to do this.
I got to get after it and, you know, borrow the difference, sell something, take six jobs, come up with the difference in cash, whatever it is. Because the quicker he gets out of this, the quicker he gets a $10,000 raise.
It's that simple. $815 a month, that's right about just shy of $10,000.
That's a lot of money. Yeah.
$833 a month is $10,000 a year. Yeah.
You get a $10,000 raise. That would motivate me.
Motivate me to never take out the payment in the first place. There's that, right? So guys, cars, all of us in America, you know, as, as a culture, we are stupid about cars.
It's the largest thing we buy that goes down in value. And so you take a $50,000 car and you drive it for three years, you know, you're going to lose 60 to 70% of that money.
It's going down in value like a rock. That's where Chevy gets that like a rock.
Okay. And so, you know, they go down in value.
And so there's nothing evil about having a nice car. What's bad is when your nice car has you and it has you when you bought a car you couldn't afford.
It's going down in value. You've got too much tied up in a depreciating asset.
And worse than that, you financed it. Worse than that, you fleeced it.
Oh, you're getting fleeced. That's a bad idea.
Don't do that. That was my sheep impression to go with the fleece joke.
Y'all got it? Okay. So, yeah, really, seriously.
And I'm like you. I like a nice car.
I drove a nice car today, but I can afford to take the losses as a percentage of my net worth, percentage of my income. But most people, man, cars are killing you.
They're killing you. This is The Ramsey Show.
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What would it be like to have no debt? Million dollars in your 401k. that'd be pretty cool.
You know, we've studied people that have done that, tens of thousands of them since we started doing this 30-something years ago. None of them accidentally did that.
They didn't wake up and go, whoa, look what happened not shocked it was a series of steady habits and behaviors can we see habits and behaviors change everything in every area of our life right and the habit and the behavior that causes people to be intentional with their money to hit the goal of some level of financial peace, a pile of money in your retirement and zero debt house and everything paid off. That happens only with a plan.
You have to plan to do it and then you have to incrementally, how do you eat an elephant, a bite at a time, but you need a plan to eat the elephant. You need to do a little blueprint, a little diagram on the elephant and go, okay, I'm to start right there.
And then I'm going to go over there and then I'm going to go over there. And that's called a budget where you give every dollar of your money in assignment.
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So Ken helped me and a few of the rest of our team helped me put together the questions that I would ask President Donald Trump once we were given the opportunity to sit down with him. We reached out to Vice President Harris's camp, if you haven't heard, and to President Donald Trump's camp

and offered to do a long-form interview for the Ramsey podcast, Ramsey show, YouTube channel. And we were able to go up there last week and do that.
And we posted it yesterday, Wednesday, October the 2nd, on our podcast channel and on our YouTube channel so that people can watch it. And Ken, it broke all records around Ramsey anyway.
And we've got some huge numbers around Ramsey, but these numbers are even bigger. Nine hours and 11 minutes after it was posted, the first million people had watched it.
The completion, meaning the people that turn it on and watch it all the way through, is almost 100%. No one's turning it off.
They're watching the interview all the way through, which also tells me that our team did a great job putting that together. And some of those questions that you helped me formulate must have been stuff people wanted to know about.
Yeah, imagine that. We got probably the most covered, the most unpredictable presidential election of our lifetime.
It's been a crazy last three months. People are paying attention.
We're just about 30 days out. I think it was timely because I think people wanted to know what you were going to ask.
I think you've got, obviously, a very trusted audience. My question for you is, because people can watch it from a content standpoint, I'm just curious.
You had a very full day. There was a massive press conference right there in the lobby of Trump Tower moments after you wrapped the interview.
I'm just curious, what was his state of mind? Was he present? Was he distracted? What was going on? I'm just curious what that was like in the moments before the conversation. 100% zoomed in.
Really? Completely. Not distracted at all.
Interesting. I don't think you can survive in the environment that a presidential candidate either party is in.
Right. Because it's from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, the next.
I mean, you're all day long. You're flying from, you know, they flew in from North Carolina.
They'd just been down there speaking. And then they had this and they had that.
They had this and they came in and they came in they go hey we're actually running a little bit early can you start early and we're like yeah let's go and uh but if you can't concentrate in the moment in the middle of that kind of frenetic yeah thing i think i think that the process would eat you alive and you would collapse and your image you know what you're trying to portray would collapse uh if you're thinking about the next thing rather than the moment being present, I don't think you could do it. It'd be like doing this show and I'm thinking about something else.
That's exactly right. You have to have a level of focus.
The other question I think people would love to know is we have an image of somebody like him who's been covered probably more than any person in the history of media. So his, you know, his ID rating around the world is 100, right? In those moments before the interview, moments after where only you and the people in the room saw that, how does he come across? What's the, what's personality like? Because we know him as rally Trump and, you know, when he's had to be presidential.
Yeah. Well, and making fun of people on Twitter or whatever and all that.
Caustic, bombastic. Yeah.
You know, that's kind of what you think of when you think of Donald Trump. Right.
He's quite the opposite. Really? Just completely chill.
Just came in, sat down, goes, hey, can we move that light over? It's making my hair glow. And we said, yes, Mr.
President, we can move the light. Is there anything else you sir so really focus on i mean we do that with anybody obviously we're not going to treat anyone with respect that's sitting there we're not going to no we can't move the light right of course we can and um but he's like yeah this thing it it gets it gets kind of crazy dave and that's funny you know and so that's funny yeah he was telling me a story i was hearing it from don jr that uh they were joking around the family and some of the kids didn't think it was funny after he you know got a shot in the ear right and um he said one of the one of the kids i won't say which one okay right looked at him and said yeah but how's the hair right the hair okay okay yeah yeah yeah ears ears bad hair's great right it didn't hurt the hair yeah and so they got a sense of humor and so yeah it was really um disarming how chill yeah you know because you kind of get amped up because you're gonna meet you got to meet the energy right right you're gonna be energy with energy and and uh otherwise it's going to look weird yeah and be weird but it was just like i wanted it to be down i wanted to not have stump you know bombastic crazy trump i wanted to meet the guy yeah and i wanted our audience to meet the guy and we 90 we got that the other thing i was going to ask you that i think is interesting um, again, we have this perception of him.
He's got a business, obviously, owns so many different types of businesses within his empire. What was the interaction like in the tower with the team? Because I think that if people come to Ramsey Solutions, you come to one of our live events, what they will experience is what you require, which is high touch, high efficient service, the way we try to treat our fans.
You have, I've been around you a decade, been an employee, been around you for two decades, work with you and for you for a decade. You require that.
And thus it is a, it's a system. We have created a way, a standard that you have required in how we treat people, and people comment on it all the time.
I'm curious, being in his world for those moments, what did you notice about the professionalism? Did you see any culture things? Because you really talk a lot about that with Entree Leadership. You know, you and I, we teach a lot on leadership, and we've got the Entree Leadership brand.

We speak to these small business guys, and we end up in discussions with teams about leadership

and helping people run their business and leadership issues.

And, you know, you can tell by the way the team is acting, you know, are they looking like fear you can see fear in their eyes or fear zero fear zero fear uh and they were cutting up they were having a good time they weren't sloppy they were very professional sure the excellence and they were very complimentary of our team of how excellent our team was to interact with and how we you know trains run on time we got stuff done we're supposed to all that so there was this mutual respect and you know we're just standing around for 20 minutes or 30 minutes talking and cut you know talking to secret service guys and the home the homeland security guys and the other secret service guys and the other secret service guys and the other secret service guys and uh but his social media team you know they're the ones that put this whole thing together

because obviously this falls in that bucket.

And they are really good at what they do, and he just lets them do it.

There's no fear.

They're running their lane.

They're running their lane.

Fully delegated.

Fully delegated.

You get the feeling he actually knows exactly what they're doing

but is not giving any instruction whatsoever. Interesting.
Except about the lighting. Yeah, there you go.
That's right. Well, that involves the hair.
That's the hair. It's a different standard.
There we go. This is the Ramsey Show.
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Number one bestselling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose. Abigail is with us in Minneapolis.
Hi, Abigail. How are you? I'm doing good.
How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world? Not much.
So I guess my question today is I've been quite a bit of student loans, and I have a job that I love and a career path that I think I love. But the amount of debt that I'm in and the amount of money that I'm making, I just don't see how it's practical to do that.
What are those two numbers? How much do you make and how much debt do you have? So I'm in about $160,000 debt. It's all student loan debt.
I don't have any other debt.

I make currently $65,000 at my salary job as a judicial law clerk, and then I work another job

as an event manager, and I probably bring in about $1,000 a month on that.

Okay. A judicial law clerk.
Is that what you said?

Yes.

Okay. And your degree is in what?

Thank you. A judicial law clerk.
Is that what you said? Yes. Okay.
And your degree is in what? Yes, so I have a BA, and then I have my law degree as well. Okay.
So have you passed the bar? Yes, I just took the February, or I mean the July bar. So why would you not be a lawyer instead of a clerk?

Just in case I didn't pass, I got this job that I am kind of stuck in for like about a year.

Yeah, but I mean, now that you've passed the bar,

you double your income as a lawyer, right?

Yes, if I wanted to go like in private,

but I feel like my heart and my prayers have been leading me more into like the public sector and working for the government yeah you're 160 000 in debt you don't take a government job i'll help you with that i'll let ken the expert tell you the same thing wait a minute yeah yeah i wonder what i'm going to say here um well abigail i i love what you're saying, but I would agree with Dave that temporarily we pivot to the private sector, juice that income, knock the debt out. You can always return back to working for the government and that type of specific work that you want to do.
What is the appeal of the government deal? I just feel like there's a lot of need. There's a lot of what? Need in the criminal justice system.
A lot of need. Okay.
And why can someone in the private world not supply someone's needs? Why is it the government the place you go to get your needs supplied? I guess morally I want to work in the criminal justice system because I feel like there's a lot of issues there, but I don't think I could be a private defense attorney. Right.
So yeah, you're talking about the prosecutorial, that's all the government. So that's the answer to Dave's question.
If you want to put the bad guys away, in your mind, I want to be on this side of it. I don't want to go to the private sector.
Yeah. Again, I don't have a problem with that, but the reality is you're not stuck.
But you did say something that's interesting. Why are you, are you under some kind of contract? Because you said to Dave a moment ago that I'm stuck in this for a year.
What does that mean? Yeah. So when I started the job, it's about a one-year commitment that you do a law clerk position.
And so you have no way around that. We've got ourselves on paper.
We've got to follow that to the nth degree on that, correct?

Yep, and I have probably like half a year left.

Okay.

Did you not think you were going to pass the bar?

Well, I just wanted to make sure I had a job just in case I didn't.

Yeah, but, I mean, you signed a contract to stay knowing that you were going to go take the bar. Yeah.
Well, that is what it is right now. So as an event planner, you've kind of up with an additional $12,000.
But right now, you're going to have to slash everything that you can slash and make as much extra income as you can. That's how you get out of this right now until the six months is up.
But I'd begin this process today, as soon as you hang up with us, mapping out what the path is to the private sector for the sole purpose of making as much dough as we possibly can to knock this out. Because at that income you you can knock that out and get that out of your life yeah so then i guess in in the interim while i'm still paying on my loans right now i pay probably about 200 over what i is the minimum on them just because i'm trying to pay them off should Should I keep doing that or should I wait? Pay whatever you can pay right now.
Yeah. Okay.
The more you pay, the less you'll owe. And, you know, and as fast as you can, let's move into a higher paying position.
Okay. Here's what I'm troubled about it.
I'm not positive I'm hearing this, but I'm going to throw it out there because I want to make sure I address it because I don't feel like I've been kind to you unless I do. Sometimes I run into folks who feel like, not in your world, not in the law world, but just in general, that, okay, I can do this thing that I do, this skill that I have, and if I work for a nonprofit ministry doing my thing, making 70% of what the marketplace pays for my thing, then I'm doing holy work, I'm doing good work.
I'm doing God's work. I'm helping people work.
But if I go into the private sector, by definition, it's greedy capitalism and I'm a horrible person and that the only people over there are horrible people. And I kind of think I'm hearing a little bit of that out of you.
Like the holy work is at the prosecutorial level and there's no one in the private sector is as holy. And I just don't believe that.
I don't think that's true. I just have prayed a lot about like what I want to use my career as and where I feel like I can help.
Yeah. and what you're discovering is that what Jesus said was true.
The borrower is slave to the lender, $160,000 worth of debt, and it's really hard to serve two masters. The master of the answer in your prayer life is to serve a certain way, but it's a way that in which you can't pay

your bills and you're stuck mathematically because you have two masters. You have a student loan

master and you have God tapping you on the shoulder in your prayer life, telling you to do

this other thing. And so it's very hard to serve two masters.
And so I, I want to propose a third

option for everyone out there,

and that is that you do not have to work for less money to be holy,

that you can serve with excellence in the marketplace, kindness, compassion,

do good work, and help hurting people from a private sector position,

anything you're doing.

And that's as much a ministry as a nonprofit, because nonprofits are not in the Bible. Nonprofit is a designation by the IRS, not by God.
And all nonprofits are profitable. If they're not, they go out of business.
They close down. They take in more than they pay out.
They're profitable. It's an accounting entry that allows them to stay under the IRS as a nonprofit.
It is not a holiness issue. And so you can enter the private sector, folks, and do holy, godly work and be at the top of your game income-wise.
I agree. I would say in this situation, I don't think she was necessarily going that route as much as in the private sector, you're limited in the type of work you're going to do that's going to put the bad guys in jail.
So I would equate her situation to someone who really wants to teach. If you've got a master's degree and you want to teach, I would use that master's degree to go get a six-figure job, get rid of the debt, get your life in a situation where you live below your means, like the teachers we have in our millionaire study, third largest group of net worth millionaires.
I agree with you too, though, Dave, that right now she needs to be going after the debt. But I do think that if you get your life in order...
My point is you don't have to sell your soul to do that. I agree with you.
But I also say if she wants to put bad guys away, you see that as honorable. Right? I do, but she said there was a need in the market.
The need is putting bad guys away? Well, I can't speak to what, you know... I want to help people.
I want to help people. I guess you're going to help the victim by putting the bad guy in jail.
Yeah, yeah. I'll go with that.
Law enforcement. I think there's a need there.
I love law and order. I like the idea.
Yeah, it's interesting. But I agree with you that now she needs more money.
Yeah. And I just, I don't want, I'm not sure if she's there, but I know a certain portion of our audience I agree.
struggles with the idea that they equate being broke with holy. All right, Dave, you have some strong opinions.
Possibly, yeah. I think so.
Okay, because you really prefer credit unions over big banks. So why is that? Well, credit unions, for one thing, are non-profit, which means that the members, the customers, own the credit union.
So any profits that the credit union makes goes back into customer pricing. So you get better interest rate on savings, cheaper checking, and so on, that kind of thing.
But what's more important than that, though, is the fact that the customer is the owner changes the spirit on the credit union. So I find very few credit unions that aren't very customer-centric.

Yes.

Well, and I think we have found one that is incredible, and that's Fairwinds.

They are an incredible credit union that is really out with the heart to help the customer.

You know, that's why we're partnering with them,

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And they've done a really, really good job with customer service.

And the deals that they're offering, the Ramsey tribe is incredible.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you're right, their customer service is unbelievable.

Winston and I just signed up and we got an account.

And I'm not kidding.

It took less than five minutes.

It was so user-friendly.

The step-by-step approach was unbelievable. And then the next day, my phone rings and it says Fairwinds on my phone.
So I answered it and talked to someone there and they said, yeah, they give calls to every new customer. And so again, they just really care about your experience.
And I so, so appreciate that. So again, you guys, I know it can be a pain to switch banks or to open up new accounts, but Fairwinds, again, they make it so easy.
Plus anything that you can do at a traditional branch, you can do with them at fairwinds.org or on their app. And you'll have free access to over 33,000 ATMs.
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That's F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
Ken, we did a, I spent a little time with my friend Ben Shapiro the other day, and we were talking about our mutual friend, Rabbi Daniel Lappin. Yes, legend.
And Rabbi talks about the Hebrew word in the Jewish, obviously, in the Jewish tradition, Jewish language, Rabbi's teachings for work is virtually the same word as the word we use for worship. And those of us that have a New Testament, those guys play only in what I call the Old Testament.
They call it the Bible, the Talmud. And great friends of ours, by the way.
We have great discussions. And that word work and worship are the same words.
So in their mindset, to do your work well with excellence in service of others is an act of worship.

And that's what I was trying to say before that break. is I think that a plumber that loves God

and does excellent work at a fair price,

treats people with kindness, shows up on time, cleans up his mess, does the work, and people that he's doing his work, what we would call in the New Testament, as unto the Lord in 2 Corinthians, right? Or if we're going to have Trump, we can say to Corinthians, right? But 2 Corinthians, right? And that'll come back to haunt me right there. But I'll hear about that by nightfall.
But anyway, yeah, do your work as unto the Lord. Your work matters.
It matters. And you talk about this all the time.
And so functioning in your gifts as an act of worship

does not require that you do it from a government position

or a nonprofit position.

That's right.

It just means you have to do it.

It's a matter of the attitude and the altitude of the heart,

not the actual location of the paycheck.

That's exactly right.

It's not holier depending on who is writing,

who's signing your check, rather.

It's the actual location of the paycheck. That's exactly right.
It's not holier depending on who is writing, who's signing your check rather. It's the actual work, the actual result itself.
And to that end, you don't have to just choose one lane to do the work in. And I think it's really important that people see that, that there's missional results in multiple lanes of work.
And when you can figure that out, you go, wait a second, if I can use my talent over here, it's just as worthy, to your point, as it is over here. It's all work that is honorable creates a good result.
Talk about honorable work. Now, there's parts of any profession you can do that you could question the honor of it.
No question. Not only from your intention, but also the type of people.
You don't want to be a guy getting people who are horrible criminals that really did do the thing. I wouldn't want to spend my life getting them off.
I don't think that's holy work in her situation. So, you know, do all defense attorneys do that? No, they don't.
There are defense attorneys that function with integrity before God. And so, but there are some that are scummy, you know, but that's just about true of accountants.
It's about true of people that own gas stations. It's true of people on a hotel.
I mean, you can find either, you can find the good and the bad people in almost any profession. Yeah.
There's no question about it. And it's, it's all about what are you, what result are you creating and why are you creating it? And you know, you can have someone who's selling faulty goods.
That's, that's wrong. Yep.
That is evil. Even though sales, dishonest scale.
That's exactly right. So the act of selling something is not wrong, but if you're selling a faulty product intentionally, now all of a sudden it's dishonorable.
Yeah, exactly. Phillip is with us.
Phillip is in Pittsburgh. Hi, Phillip.
How are you? Good, Dave. How are you? Better than we deserve.
What's up? So, if you're excuse me, I'm kind of nervous. But so my question is, is should I buy a business or grow what I have now organically? And feel free to ask questions to dig.
What business are you in? So it's a tax preparation and consulting business. Cool.
And you have the opportunity to buy someone's practice. Yeah, I do.
Okay. Do you have the cash to buy it? Excuse me.
So, no, it would be a seller finance deal. Okay.
Well, it's all about a mathematical thing, and then we've got to structure the financing where I'm not about to throw up about it. And I'll help you with that, too.
But the question is, what are you talking about paying for it? So we talked about $225 right now, And the and the yearly billings are about between $175,000 and $1.90, or $175,000 and $1.80, I'm sorry. Okay, so on $150,000, what's your net profit? $150,000.
So what she had had, it's probably around like $0.75. So $0.50.
You got a 50% margin on this? Yeah had had it's probably around like 75 so 50 cents you got a 50 margin on this yeah because it's largely service-based it's got to do with your hours right do you have the capacity to take that on um i do i do what are you generating in your business what's your revenues picture so right now organ I started at the beginning of the year, it's about 30 so far. And that's, that's part, like, um, like a side hustle as well.
I work full time as well. What's your, yeah.
What's your day job? Um, basically the same thing. I do tax planning and consulting.
I don't do preparation as much,. How much do you make? What do you make in your day job?

$90.

And how much of the $30 on this side accounting hustle are you keeping?

What's your profit margin on that $30?

So on that, I actually have only taken maybe like $5,000.

I've put a lot of it back into it to grow it.

How much you got in savings of the side hustle?

On the side hustle, like $5.

Thank you. of it back into it to grow it.
How much you got in savings of the side hustle? On the side hustle, like $5,000. What are you thinking is the benefit? You called us.
I'm curious, before you got on the phone, what were you thinking the benefit would be of buying this other agency? I think the benefit for me would have been just to be able to work for myself. So I come, my whole family is entrepreneurs and I have always wanted to do this.
And the lady who approached me is older and I just wanted to work for myself. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course.
And I feel like I've always, like I said, I've always wanted to do it, and this just kind of fell into my lap. My line of questioning is trying to get you to reconcile what the true benefit is because I'm pretty proud of the fact that you've launched something on the side in the same that you've got a good day job and a good salary, and you've managed to put money back into the side hustle.
You got a little bit saved and retained earnings is what we call it in Entree Leadership. So I'm sitting there going, if I'm you, I'd probably go the more patient route because I don't see a huge windfall to even take on this financing.
I don't think it's enough of a benefit to take on the debt. It doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, and that's actually the line of thinking I came across like a a week ago like we were supposed to move slow with this and then that's kind of what i thought like a week ago and that's kind of why i'm calling as well i wouldn't do it yeah let's here's the thing we need to separate you you don't want to buy a job yeah you want to buy a business that good. And so if I were going to buy this business, I'm not going to do the tax prep.
I'm going to hire someone to do the tax prep. Now, if I buy the business and I can generate 150 out, if I keep enough of her clients on from 200, I can keep three quarters of them.
That'd be pretty good. Keep.
I got 150. 150 i'm gonna have a gross profit of 100 of 75 on that and then i've got to pay someone to do that work and i'm probably gonna have to pay them 50 grand to do that work agreed yeah and that means that as as a business owner I'm making $,000 net profit on a purchase of 225 not a chance it's worth that yeah and part of the part of the reason why i was i had pause was her billings are very low on a per return basis so if i would if i would increase them i don't know how many of them would actually yeah to lose, you're going to lose people just because it's not her.
And then you're going to lose more if you raise prices. Super quick idea, Dave, I would pitch her on a finder's fee.
Yeah, if she lets him take care of her customers, they got to go somewhere. Yeah.
And I'll share I'll share revenue with you for a period of 12 months or something. But it's not worth two and a quarter, dude.
That's overpriced. It's probably worth $100.
This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.
Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, host of the Ken Coleman Show. Number one bestselling author is my co-host today.
Daniel is in Houston. Hi, Daniel.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, guys.
Thanks for having me call. Sure.
How can I help? I have a question about budget. I want to know if my wife and I are going to overkill.
So my wife and I, we recently moved in together. We're relatively recent college graduates.
Household income is about $200,000. Takeover is about $145,000.
That's post-401K, life insurance, health insurance, and HSA deductions. We have a six-month emergency fund.
We have zero debt. And now the goal is for her to become a stay home mother one day.
But up until that day, the discussed goal is to invest my income and live off hers. In other words, I've got 145 that is take home, 85 is mine and 60 is her.
So invest 60% of our take home income. Is that overkill? Your home is paid for? We do not have a home.
We moved into an apartment together. Okay.
And you're married? Yes, sir. Okay.
All right. You said that, but I was just double-checking the way, because usually it's kind of like automatic you move in together once you're married.
So I'm just making sure I got this right. Okay.
Okay, so the way I would look at this, the way I look at things is based on the data that I have of the studies that we've done and the people that we have worked with over the last 30 years that have built wealth, what did they do and what is different about what they did and what you're talking about doing. And that's how I'm going to answer the question.
Okay. So in other words, as we studied 10,000 millionaires, how many of them did what you did, lived in an apartment, did not buy a house, watch their rent go up every single year,

which you can 100% count on rent going up your entire life, as long as you rent every year until you buy a house,

and then it doesn't go up anymore.

So the house goes up, but the rent doesn't go up.

Very, very few people that we have studied or that we know of and have tracked with that became wealthy used that plan. Instead, what they have done is they bought and then paid off a home by investing a little less and using the difference to save towards buying that home because the largest line item in the math in your budget every month is the largest item is cost of housing and when the largest line item is rent and it goes up every single year your largest item is out of your control and it's going up every year when you fix it by buying and then you pay that house off what we find is that we find 15 years from today 14 12 years from today for you you have a net worth of a million and a half five or six hundred of that is a paid off house and six or 700 of that is in your 401ks and your Roth IRAs.

And so I'm... of that is a paid-off house, and $600 or $700 of that is in your 401ks and your Roth IRAs.

And so I'm going to lead you that direction rather than this intense saving. Obviously,

let me tell you what you are doing very, very well. You're actually paying attention,

you're planning, you're thinking, you're scheming about how we can win this money thing. Most people just ride through life with their, you know, their head stuck up their assumptions and they don't know what's going on.
And they just, and then they wake up broke. You're quite the opposite.
You're on the very other end. You're very, very intense.
You're on fire. And so we've just got to point you in a way that's going to be the most efficient for you to actually hit your end goal, which is a, a good stable life with a pile of wealth, right? That's our end goal.
Yes, sir. Yeah.
So no, I would not do what you're doing. I would save, I would start saving a maximum of 15% of my household income into retirement, and I would stop the HSA.
I would build an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses, and then I'd see how fast I can build up a fat, juicy down payment, and I'd buy a house in Texas, which is a wonderful market to own a piece of real estate in, and I'd watch that house just go zoom, zoom over the next 15 years. I mean, look back and think about the neighborhood that you might buy in and what you could have bought that house for 15 years ago.
That just kind of makes you a little smiley. Wow, 15 years ago, I could have bought this house for, oh, that's what it's going to be 15 years from now.
And so, yeah, that's what you want to do. Yeah, and I would just encourage you, Daniel, there's zero, zero chance that the guy we're talking to right now is going to not be able to live below your means.
You're going to win. So when she becomes a stay-at-home mama, I promise you this, Dave will tell you I'm right.
You're going to win. She's going to want a house.
So Dave's advice is absolutely right. When babies, she don't want to stay in an apartment.
So let's go ahead and just remove the fear factor of, will I have enough? You're going to. You know what? That's a really.
Intensity right now is to get that house payment ready. Those are two good observations.
And I didn't, you really keyed in on something there. Because I forget, because I've gotten old and I've been doing this so long.
But guys, especially young dudes that have just gotten married, guys can live under a bridge. 100%.
Yeah. You know, if we weren't married, we would not be inside.
Right. I mean, it's like, and ladies, you know, they come along and they go, and they go no no it's warm in here it's cool in here uh we can control the atmosphere inside a property uh you know and and look we can cook in here and you know we've got storage for our stuff and yeah it's like the domestication of the male beast yeah but yeah, but you're right.
He really, they just got married and moved in together. Right.
And so he can live anywhere. Sure.
And yeah, you're right. Even if she's going along with her right now because she's in love, but she's going to wake up and go, I don't love this apartment.
No. That's what's going to happen.

You're exactly right.

And she will be right, by the way, when that happens.

100% right.

So we're trying to help you out on this one.

And the way you're living, my friend, Daniel, you're going to be able to do what Dave says.

You're going to have a fat down payment.

I think, Daniel, if I could get two drops of your blood inserted in some of these people that are sitting on their butts,

you're way on your way. You're going to be great.
Oh, yeah. You're not going to be a broke guy because you're actually paying attention.
You're willing to do stuff. You're willing to go extreme.
And you're going to win. You're going to win.
He's going to call in several years from now in a millionaire themed hour. Oh, yeah.
Definitely. Baby Steps Millionaire.
Baby Steps Millionaire. He's that guy.
Hang on, Daniel. I'm going to send you a copy of the book, The Baby Steps Millionaires.
It's got the white paper of the study, the piece of research that I'm talking about in the back, and you will enjoy reading about these millionaires, and you'll see these correlating behaviors that they have with what I'm talking about in the data. And then you'll go, okay, I can adjust to that.
It'll be real helpful to you. You'll really enjoy this book.
It's a

bestseller and I'll send it to you as my gift, my wedding gift, since you got married and moved in

together. This is the Ramsey Show.
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It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. I talk to people every day who want to know how to do better in two areas, money and relationships.

That's why I'm pumped to bring the Money and Relationships Tour to a city near you.

Join me and Dr. John Deloney for a night that will challenge the way you think about this stuff

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Starting April 21st, we'll be in Louisville, then on to Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City.

Grab your tickets at RamseySolutions.com slash tour before they're gone. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
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That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey, Y-Re-Fi dot com slash Ramsey might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Derek in South Carolina.
I recently got promoted to private client banker for a national banking chain. This will probably be as high up the ladder as I can climb without being a financial advisor, branch manager, or business banking specialist.
My position is a sales role where I bring home about $100,000 a year. I really love the finance world, but the more I listen to your show, it's getting harder for me to push loans, credit cards, and various investment products that I don't believe in like I once did.
I don't want to hit the restart button because I love the finance world. I have my SIE and my Series 6 licenses through my employer, and they will pay for my education if I do not want to go to college, excuse me, if I do want to go to college for a degree.
What field in finance would you suggest I pursue? I love the idea of financial planning, but I don't want to push products or make the same amount of money that I'm making now. Well, again, when I read this, I go, good for you.
You're not a bad person, so I understand I love the values that are coming across in this question, but you're not a bad person. So take the guilt jacket off for the moment and go, all right, I do have clear values that are going to guide me.
And you can absolutely help people win in their finances without pitching products that you disagree with. And I think of investment professionals and things like that that have such a huge role in the people's lives that we've been coaching for years.
And I think that's a great field. If you want to stay in finance, then get in that space and help people with their long-term investments and just refuse to, you know, get involved with a firm or the kind of products that you're worried about.
But I don't think you have to switch gears at all. But Dave Dave, I'm curious.
This is more your world, and you have a greater understanding of that. What's your take on this question? Oh, your answer is exactly right.
I mean, just the SmartVestor pros that we have, there are people in the Ramsey Trusted Network that we send our listener to. They have the heart of a teacher.
They're not pushing any products that are bad products. They're simply helping somebody get their Roth IRA started or get their kid's college fund started or roll over their 0401K.
And they teach you what you should do. And then once you understand and decide that that's what you want to do, then they help you do it.
They actually make the transaction for you. And that's what a good smart investor pro does.
And, and those guys, you know, and gals that, uh, after a period of time in the business that develop a book of business, a group of clients, they make a lot more than a hundred K and they should. Um, and I'm fine with that.
And, but you don't have to be a, um, you don't have to lose your integrity to be in the financial world. There are plenty of ways to do it right.
But I think there's more ways to do it wrong, which is what you're observing. That's exactly right.
And so you just have to get with someone where you say, gosh, if I don't feel right about that, I'm not going to do it. And they go, oh, no, you have to do it.
Well, that's not where you want to be, right? That's exactly right. So, yeah, what I might do is just click on some of the smart investors on our website, see if you can get to sit down and talk to one of them about joining their firm, or if not, at least tell them.
Maybe one of them will let you buy them a cup of coffee, and they'll tell you how the business works. That's my great advice is just to sit there with somebody and go, hey, I want to get in this space.
Give me the good, the bad, the ugly. What do I need to do? Is there an opportunity for you? And I think his litmus test on this is I need to be in the world of finance where I'm helping people achieve freedom, not in the area of finance where I'm saddling people with debt.
And I think that's the simple litmus test for him. And it comes from a good place.
Yeah, it's great. But I mean, you're not going to be working for a bank.
That's correct. 100% of the time, a bank employee is going to be forced to sell debt products.
It's where banks make their money. It's what they do.
And, you know, there's no, I mean, it's like asking a dog if it's hungry. You know, of course it's hungry.
Of course a banker sells debt.

It's what they do.

Of course they think home equity loans and credit cards and car loans

and lines of credit and da-da-da-da-da-da.

They think, oh, that's the cat's meow.

And obviously you've come to the conclusion that we have that that's not a good plan.

Kelsey's with us in Portland, Oregon.

Hi, Kelsey.

How are you?

Hi, Dave. It's so great to be on your show.
Thanks so much for taking my call. Sure.
What's up? All right. So my question for you today is, is it okay for us to spend 28% of our take-home pay on our mortgage payment? Well, it's okay to do whatever you want to do.
You're an adult. I mean, it's not like you're breaking a law or something we teach apparently you realize to keep your house payment around 25 but 28 is kind of like 25 it's not the end of the world the reason we teach that is is that people go out and take a you know 50 of their take-home pay and then they call me up broke.
Right. And they're house poor.

You know, 3%, you know, that's like saying, okay,

I'm not going to do Dave's 25%.

I'm going to do 22% because that's going to guarantee I'm a millionaire in a year.

No, it's only 3%.

It doesn't do it.

And 3% is not going to, the other way is not going to condemn you to death

and hell and flames, okay?

3% is not that big a deal.

So as long as you get the concept now is this a 15 year no it's not not in portland oregon not going to be able to they have they have 15 year mortgages in portland oregon all over the place they do that's true they don't own the house you want to buy. Yeah.
So no, I would not do that. Yeah, absolutely not going into debt for 30 years and using Portland, Oregon is my excuse.
That's bull crap. No, no, you're going to be in debt your whole life, girl.
And that's not what we're signing you up for here. We want you to be wealthy.
Yeah, I don't, I don't want to be in debt my whole life either. Oh, you're signing up up for it it's just struggling with a three-year-old and a one-year-old and the house we're living don't blame your children for your wants yeah that's true that's true you want a house you got house fever take a cold shower a bigger place to live yeah you you want a nicer house than 98 percent of the world's population lives in it's true yeah it's okay i want you to get a house i don't want your house to get you yeah that's all it is oh by the way let me ask you this when you say take home pay what else coming out of that check what else coming out of that check so the well that's just after taxes okay that's all i wanted all right so it's not like you took a bunch of other stuff out there we could add back to help you with this formula but now i i listen you can do whatever you want like we started the call with you're like a grown adult and stuff you're allowed to it's not against the law but i'm going to challenge your um your decision making paradigm or framework that you're using that you can't do this in Portland, Oregon,

and that it's for the children.

Neither one of those are true statements.

This is a house you want, and you're not an evil person for wanting a nice house.

That's not the point either.

But we have to push the child that lives inside of us out of the cereal aisle and say, no, we can't live on Lucky Charms. We have to live on meat and taters.
That's the way it works. And so that's what we've all got to do.
And that's hard, Kelsey. It's hard for me.
It's hard for everybody else. I do want you to get a house, but I do not want your house to slow down your family's progress to cause instability rather than stability because you stretch and stretch and stretch and justify and rationalize.
Yeah. And just to encourage you, Kelsey, I think everybody listening understands this desire to have a little bit bigger space.
But the one and the three-year-old, I think is what you said, you just got to remind yourself sometimes, Dave's right, you got house fever. We've all been through that before.
These kids don't need more space. The average American family has way more space and way more stuff in that space than they actually need.
And so this is about the long-term play. Where do you want to be 20, 30 years from now and what decisions that you're making right now are going to hamper or hold that vision back.
And this is one of them. When you got too much house, this is the Ramsey show.
Listen, guys, I've heard just about every excuse for why folks think they can't get ahead with money. So let's go ahead and settle this right now.
The truth is you get to decide what happens with your money.

And if you want to start winning with money, you have to get on a budget.

The EveryDollarBudget app makes it easy for you to plan every dollar you've got coming

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Plus, it's free.

So no more excuses.

Go download EveryDollar in the App Store or Google Play today. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
Thanks for joining us, America. We're so glad you are here in the lobby of ramsey solutions on the debt-free stage kevin and kelly are with us hey guys how are you good how are you better than we deserve where do you guys live gripping mississippi just a little north of tupelo yeah well welcome up to nashville good to have you and how much debt have you two paid off

116 000 all right and how long did that take sir a year and 10 months wow look at you great job and your range of income during that almost two years we started out around 82 000 and ended at 107 cool what do y'all do for a living i'm a certified uh nurse's assistant and i'm a land surveyor, do construction layout. Through this process I actually got my

surveyors What do you all do for a living? I'm a certified nurse's assistant. And I'm a land surveyor.
I do construction layout. Through this process, I actually got my surveying license during the paying off process.
Ah, that helped the old income. Yes, it did.
Good for you. Great career, both of them.
Excellent job. What kind of debt was the $116,000? It was the house.
You paid off your house. Looking at weirdos.
You guys are weird. You have a paid-for house.
How old are you two weirdos? I'm 35. And I'm 37.
And you have a paid-for house. Way to go, guys.
Oh, we're seeing a picture of it pop up on YouTube here. Nice place.
What's that place worth? Around $290 now. Excellent.
Way to go, you guys. That's awesome! Thank Look at those smiles.
Oh, I love it, man. My house is paid for two houses worth 300 grand.
How much is in your nest egg, your retirement savings? Oh, around 40 in mine and probably about the same in hers. I would say.
Okay. So you're approaching the first half million on your way to being millionaires by the time you're 40 probably.

Way to go, guys.

Thank you.

Proud of you.

Very cool.

So what in the world caused all this?

What happened?

How'd you get connected to this Ramsey stuff?

Well, we've got some friends that live in North Carolina, Jim and Julie Sly, and she texted me on my 33rd birthday,

and we just got to talking about kids.

She had kids that were in college age, and she said, let me give you some advice on you need to be saving for college right now. And I told Kelly, I said, how can we save while we're this much deep in house debt? So we got to researching it, come across you.
I kind of got on board with it, and then she got on board with it, and then I couldn't get off board. too late right too late like i was going to do most of it but the credit card deal i didn't have issues with credit cards so i thought and uh yeah i said if we're going to do it we need to do it right so we got debit cards we uh cut up our credit cards got debit cards and uh you would be surprised.
And you're still alive. Yes.

It makes a big difference when that money goes the minute you spend it. Yeah, you do spend it differently, don't you? You do.
Yeah. Way to go, you guys.
So proud of you. How does it feel to not have a payment in the world? We still don't really know.
Yeah, it's unbelievable. Kevin, I'm curious for the broader audience, How much did it cost you and how much time did it take to level up during this debt-free journey, if that's when you did it, and then that gave you some additional income? Give us the data on that.
As far as like the- Yeah, how long did it take you and how much did it cost you to get that additional income? It's a three-part test, and you have to pass each part before you get to the next, obviously. And so I started applying probably before December of 23, I guess it was, and I passed in October.
Well, that would have been December of 22. Passed in October of 23.
So that long of a process to get through all three tests and get my income up. How much it cost to actually do that uh the cost of it probably no more than a thousand to fifteen hundred with test applications and the test fees yeah that's interesting cool and it bumped your income a lot more than that it did yes it was something i've been putting off for years and should have just went and done it and uh when she gave me that wake-up call, it really just kind of boosted our enthusiasm to do something.
It's like I woke up when I turned 33 is what I tell people. And when Kelly cut up your credit card, you had to go to work, buddy.
Right. That's right.
Yeah. Definitely.
I love it. Way to go, you two.

Who was cheering you on?

Who was your good cheerleaders?

Probably his parents most.

Yeah, my parents helped out a lot with discount daycare is what I call it.

And then my boss, Andy, he was a big proponent.

He was pushing your plan, and he told me, he said, just do it.

Just stick with it and do it. And really, I've got so many people in our church that I can't even begin to name.

One of my cousins, Jason, he's a great influence in my life and still is.

And, I mean, just so many.

I can't even name all of them.

Do you want to try to?

Anybody tell you you're crazy?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, you had those two? Oh, yeah. She had both sides of the equation, right? Yes, sir.
Yes, sir. Yeah, okay.
That's all right. That's good.
If broke people are making fun of your financial plan, you're right on track, man. I like it.
Good for you guys. Well done.
Well done. All right, now you're the other side of it.
You got a paid-for $300,000 house. Mm-hmm.
What do you tell people the key to doing that is what's the key to getting out of debt um you got to stick together and um stick with the budget and um live below your means yeah you really got to just get to the point where you don't care what people think of you yeah there was something else i was going to bring out through this process we started really getting serious cut up the credit cards around october of 22 is that right and uh by december of 22 she started eating right exercising i wasn't into that so uh she told me she said you've got to start doing better because you're making it hard on me so that got me in gear and through this whole process i shed off 65 pounds goodness yeah i've lost about 70 and you lost 70 yes wow good i mean between the two of you you lost a backstreet boy. Wow.
I lost 26% of my body weight. Goodness.
You know, discipline begets discipline. When I find out I can control something, then I find out I can control something else.
That has to do with the mirror. Right.
You know? Yeah. Way to go, you two.
Dave, you've told people for a long time, rice and beans and rice but you guys went a different direction we're like we want to get healthy and debt free uh that's that's extraordinary when you look at it as though you have bitten off more than you can chew yeah financially and physically it applies both ways you have to give it i like what you did what you did there. That'll preach right there.
I saw that. I saw that move.
That was a good move. Nice dance move.
Yep. Mad respect on that.
That was well done. Excellent, you two.
Wow, that's amazing. And in both cases, you'll never go back.
I sure hope not. Physically or financially.
No.

Fiscally or physically.

Either way.

Yeah, that's right.

Way to go, y'all.

That's so impressive.

Yeah, really impressive.

Very neat.

Very neat.

So you tell people the key to getting out of debt is what again?

Consistency.

Consistency, yeah.

Both of us being on the same page because I would have bailed ship a long time before

the end if she hadn't been on.

Well, like you said, you got her started and then she wouldn't let you quit.

That's it.

I got it.

I got that.

That was good.

Very good job, you guys.

And you got how many kiddos?

Three.

Three?

Are they all with you or just this morning?

They are all three.

Oh, okay.

Let's get them up here and let's get their names and ages, please.

This is Kaysen.

He is three.

Three.

Mm-hmm. And Kaylee, she's two.
Mm-hmm. And Kyla is seven.
All right. I got to tell you what, you changed their family tree.
They don't know it yet because they're too young that their mom and dad just completely changed everything for them, not only health-wise, but financial health as well. Way to go.
All right. Kevin and Kelly, Tupelo, Mississippi area, $116,000

paid off house and

everything. 140

pounds lost. Did all this in

one year and 10 months, making 82

to 107. Count it down.

Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Three, two, one.

We're debt-free!

Yeah!

Oh, my goodness.

That's amazing, Ken.

Really extraordinary, the parallels between getting their financial life

and their physical life under control.

Really amazing.

Same problem, guy in my mirror.

Same solution, guy in my mirror. Same solution.

Guy in my mirror.

This is The Ramsey Show. Hey guys, George Camel here.
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Abby's in Boston.

Hi, Abby.

Welcome to the Ramsey show. Hi, how are you? Better than I deserve.
Abby's in Boston. Hi, Abby.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi. How are you? Better than I deserve.
What's up? Well, I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to pursue a paid leave of absence from my job or just to walk away altogether. Okay.

Give us your current pros and cons for walking away altogether.

Cons, it's an hour commute.

And my father is sick, but that's another con, being far away if something were to happen with him. So the reason you want to do this is you want to be able to go be near him? Yes.
In either case. Okay.
But if you walk away, okay, go ahead. What are the pros to walking away when we're walking away from that income? I don't always get along with one of my bosses.
Neither does Ken. He's sitting here.
That's awesome. Yeah, it's not a good reason.
So what are you walking to? I understand your father, and that's a legit personal reason to try to figure out if I should make a change in my life with the job being an hour away, etc., etc. But what are you walking to if you were to walk away? And I'm talking about income.
Do you have another job lined up or some prospects, ideas? I don't have a job lined up. However, I know I could get another position in the industry.
Listen, I love your confidence, but I'm not going to walk away from a full-time income, especially when I need it, and I presume that you need it. You can't have an interruption in pay.

I'm not going to leave one place to be closer to my dad

and all these changes you need to make without having something already lined up.

Why don't you just go get the other job?

Yeah.

I'm afraid that if I were to start a new job,

I would start off on a bad foot already

because I'm going to have to take time off, not just because of my father,

but because I was diagnosed with something as well.

Okay, this is new information.

So you have some health concerns?

Yeah, it's a new occurrence.

Okay.

And you know for a fact your current company is offering you the paid leave option to try to get healthy no no they're not okay well then actually but you presented that as a should i take paid leave or should i walk away completely but paid leave not an option um i'm under the impression that it's not up to the employer. It would be up to the state.
Okay, but we have some, okay, that's fair. You got me there, but I'm saying we have certainty.
I don't feel that we have certainty right now, Phil. You're like, I'm under the impression that the state would give me.
I need some certainty on that before I would take that option. Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.

I think you're confused.

I don't think the state of Massachusetts requires an employer to give you paid leave.

The federal government has, we're required to give you time off unpaid and hold the position

for you.

That's a federal law for a family situation or for a health situation.

Family Leave Act.

The Family Leave Act is a federal law, but it doesn't require paid.

Yes, I understand.

And I don't think Massachusetts requires paid.

Okay.

Massachusetts, that's a native location. I didn't want Okay.
Well, Massachusetts is a, it's a,

that's a made up location.

I didn't want to get my real location.

So I don't think any state requires paid leave.

Oh,

even if you were to apply and you were qualified.

Apply with who? Do you work for the state no no i don't so just for example my father he has cancer right and we applied for temporary disability insurance through the state that we live in right that's not paid leave that's disability insurance through the state that we live in. Right.
That's not paid leave. That's disability insurance.
Oh, okay. Okay.
And you don't get disability insurance for him unless you can prove you are disabled, then you might get some disability insurance. Are you disabled? No, I understand.
Yeah. No, it's kind of two separate things.
My diagnosis came after my father's situation. And when my father got diagnosed, I took a lot of time off of work.
And then my situation came up after. I got you.
So it just kind of piled on. Yeah, I got you.
So I'm just wondering. Is your diagnosis going to cause you to be declared disabled? Maybe.
I don't know. It's breast cancer, so I don't know.
I'm sorry, hon. Boy, you guys got a lot going on.
Cancer with both of you.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm so sorry.

Yeah.

So, and you're an hour and a half away from work, your dad is.

And is your dad's prognosis, I mean, what are they saying about him?

Is this terminal or what?

Yes, he's currently on hospice, actually.

Oh, my gosh.

So how much longer do you think he has, hon? A couple months, if I'm lucky. Okay.
I'm so sorry. Thank you.
I think I'm just being stubborn and trying to fight the principle, I guess. But maybe it's not worth it, but that's why I felt.
I don't know about what, I don't know what's not worth it. It's worth it to get to spend some time with your dad and it's worth it to take care of your health.
I don't have any problem with any of that. Um, and if that means you walk away from this job, if you've got a way to eat over the next two months while you get some care and you provide some care to your dad in his last time here.
I think that's a wonderful move. Do you have a way to eat? I do.
Yes. Okay.
So you got some money coming in or a place to get some money or whatever. If you can do all of that and then just get you another job after all the, after, you know, a year from now, your cancer has been has been treated and um your dad's thing has run its course and you know you're resetting your life a year from now and you get a new job and you move on i got no issue with that at all i just want to be sure you're in the okay in the middle of this okay you know um i play house as you would call it.
You're living with someone? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So he's supporting you financially? Yes.
Okay, well, then you're okay. Yeah.
I don't see any reason that you have to stay in this position. If they want to give you paid leave, and that's something they offer as an employee benefit, that would be awesomeness.
But I think you're out of there,

and you've got to take care of your daddy and take care of you is what it sounds to me like,

I'm so sorry. What a tough, tough situation.
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