Escape the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Trap

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people

Speaker 1 build wealth, do work that they love,

Speaker 1 and create actual and amazing relationships. Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney, Ramsey personality, PhD in counseling, number one best-selling author, and host of one of the hottest shows on the Ramsey Network, the old Dr. John Deloney Show.

Speaker 1 He's my co-host today as we take your questions at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Those of you that follow this show closely are freaking out because I'm not usually here on Fridays. I don't work on Friday.

Speaker 1 But I decided to drop by and and do an hour of the show with Dr. John today because I had an unusual thing happen, and we wanted to tell you guys about it and let you know what's happening.

Speaker 1 Our team several weeks ago reached out to

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 Trump organization and reached out to the Harris organization, Vice President Harris, President Donald Trump, and offered the ability to sit down and have a discussion about ideas because I'm sick and tired of all the money slinging.

Speaker 1 I'd like to talk about ideas and because I think ideas are worth fighting over

Speaker 1 and arguing about. And if you want to sit down and talk about ideas and do a long-form interview, the Harris camp has our request.

Speaker 1 The last word we got was under review. So

Speaker 1 not been a yes, not been a no from them. But I flew to New York and at this time yesterday, I was in Trump Tower interviewing President Donald Trump for an hour.

Speaker 1 and or for 35 minutes anyway, ended up being. It went a little quicker than we thought it was going to go.
But just to sit down and to talk about ideas and so forth. And it was fun.

Speaker 1 It was interesting. I've never done anything like that.

Speaker 1 I've interviewed presidents or past presidents before,

Speaker 1 but obviously he is a different one, especially in front of a microphone because he knows microphones and production. He's been on TV for years and he's very cognizant of what he's doing.

Speaker 1 It's very interesting. So it was fun.
It was very interesting.

Speaker 1 You get a different thing off of my my contention is this, that anyone that hates someone is just, you know, there's a few people you should hate, Hitler, okay? But he's not Hitler.

Speaker 1 And there's a few people you, if you want to hate him, you can hate him.

Speaker 1 But I got to tell you, if you dislike someone's positions on things, if you spend an hour with them and just listen to them and find out their heartbeats and that

Speaker 1 they love their kids, It's hard to be a racist if you spend time with people of a different color. It's hard to be a sexist if you spend time with high-performing people of the opposite sex.

Speaker 1 It's hard to hate people when you spend time with them. That's my theory.
So, and

Speaker 1 that was my attempt at doing this. So

Speaker 1 it may be boring as crud to some of you. We had a good time with it.

Speaker 1 And I think you'll laugh some, and I think you'll hear some things when the interview comes out that you didn't expect.

Speaker 1 But I also don't think there's anything in there that's like breaking news. I don't think Dave Ramsey has got a scoop for sure.

Speaker 1 We got exactly what he wanted us to get because he's a pro. You're not going to get something he didn't want you to get.
And they did not ask to review the questions in advance.

Speaker 1 Actually, an hour before, the social media guy got nervous and said, can I see the questions?

Speaker 1 But not Trump's staff. The social media guy was worried about what was going to end up on social media because they're very cognizant of the power of social media.
So anyway. It's fun.

Speaker 1 So here's the deal. It will come out on the Ramsey Network app, which is a free download for your phone or your computer.

Speaker 1 And it will come out Tuesday on the Ramsey Network app. And on Wednesday, we'll put the interview out long form on all of our podcast channels and our YouTube channels.
Completely free.

Speaker 1 All of it's free either way. There's no hook in this.
There's nothing else. But

Speaker 1 it was,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't, I mean, I do a lot of stuff behind closed doors and go to high security situations. I've never seen security like this in my life.

Speaker 1 It was unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Well, I saw there was a tweet that went out that was like, Iran's trying to kill me and he'll never get me and I'm surrounded by missiles and whatever. Right as whatever wild tweet was going on.

Speaker 2 Right as you were walking in.

Speaker 1 Just getting in front of that building, getting into that building, going up an elevator in that building, going into a certain room in that building where the president's going to appear later, it's an interesting process.

Speaker 1 Especially with all the crap going on with him in particular. But

Speaker 1 they are doing their job. That's for sure.

Speaker 1 Well, I want to say this.

Speaker 2 On behalf of,

Speaker 2 I don't have a normal job, right? I'm a YouTuber, as my son says, and a radio host. I don't have a normal job, but

Speaker 2 on behalf of, like, you say this often, if everything was just to go away, you and Sharon are going to be fine, right? Like, if some big economic correction, you and Sharon are going to be fine.

Speaker 2 You don't owe anybody any money. And you think, well, we were in a meeting the other day, and

Speaker 2 I appreciate as a guy who's just a regular guy. I had to go talk to my neighbor yesterday or something that happened with my dog.
I'm trying to figure out how to get my yard mode before it rains.

Speaker 2 You too? Yes.

Speaker 2 As a regular guy living in a neighborhood. In a meeting the other day, you said, what you just said, I want to double-click on it.
I'm sick of everybody just throwing mud at each other.

Speaker 2 And every day you come to work, you're the only CEO in America that I know of that still spends three hours a day with their front-end customer, listening to hurting people all day.

Speaker 2 Like, I want to get some real answers to some real questions. And

Speaker 2 I want to give both camps an opportunity just to say, okay, here's how I'm actually going to help people with eggs.

Speaker 2 Here's how I'm going to help people with like the cost of, it's just hard in life right now.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 2 And so thank you for being somebody who at least wants to say,

Speaker 2 I'll use my platform to speak up on people who are hurting because I talk to them every day. And y'all apparently don't because we're not, nobody's talking about them.
Right.

Speaker 2 And so I appreciate you being willing to do that. Oh, it's fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, obviously we're catching hell. Of course.

Speaker 1 I'll catch hell for everybody. All the anti-Trump people are just

Speaker 1 reigning acid on our parade, but that's fine. I mean,

Speaker 1 this is not an endorsement of anybody.

Speaker 1 I do not worship. I'm not starstruck.

Speaker 1 I'm not. It's not because I'm arrogant or something.
I've just been doing this crap a long time.

Speaker 1 And these people are interesting to me, though, because the type of person that plays at that level is very interesting to me. The level of energy that they have.
I mean, he's 78 years old.

Speaker 1 He spoke in North Carolina like two hours before he was in Trump Tower in front of our cameras. I mean, and he doesn't stop.
I mean, where is he getting all this energy? I'd be worn out, and I'm 64.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 and he's shorter than I thought he was.

Speaker 1 I thought the guy was massive, didn't you? You have the impression that he's like 6'6 or something? He's not. No.
He's just a little bit taller than me. Than you? Than me.

Speaker 2 And you're just a little bit taller than George Campbell. You're way way taller.

Speaker 1 Yeah, careful. You're way taller.
Everybody's taller than George Campbell. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting.
That kind of stuff is interesting to me.

Speaker 1 So our first question, I'll go ahead and preview it. I just said, okay, Mr.
President, we talk to real people every day. Let me tell you what they're concerned about.

Speaker 1 They're not concerned about a bunch of the stuff you're talking about.

Speaker 1 The stuff they're concerned about, $7 eggs, $5 gas, 7% interest rates, and house prices going up faster than their wages are going up. This black cloud that's over our economic situation right now.

Speaker 1 And we can talk about how it got there. We can talk about what you used to do.
You can talk about the current administration, but I don't really want to.

Speaker 1 What I want to talk about is what you're going to do in the first 90 days to get this black cloud off of America.

Speaker 1 And that was my first question. And I'll ask Ms.
Vice President Harris this exact same question if I get the opportunity.

Speaker 2 And I think it's all

Speaker 2 couched with

Speaker 2 We're still going to show up and tell Americans,

Speaker 2 like, you can't wait on them. Yeah.
Like, you got to control what's in your house.

Speaker 1 And by the way, if you're out there and you're angry and you're never going to deal with Ramsey again because I interviewed Donald Trump, good.

Speaker 1 Leave. I'm fine with that.
You're narrow-minded and too stupid to talk to. You need to learn to engage ideas and engage things that make you uncomfortable.
So, good.

Speaker 1 If you're angry because I might talk to President Vice President Harris and you're going to leave and never listen to us again, good.

Speaker 1 See you. Wouldn't want to be you.
We'll miss you. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Funny. They popped that picture up there.
That's a great picture. But it's one of the few times that someone's head glows more than mine.
His hair just lit up under the lights.

Speaker 1 Mine usually shines like a bulb, you know. We have to put so much makeup on my head to keep it from just glistening, right? And his hair is like a dadgum halo, which would not be appropriate, right?

Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right. But

Speaker 1 it lights up. And he had us change the lighting because it was even worse than that.

Speaker 1 That's funny. I like it.
It was a good shot, though. Fun stuff.
All right. But that's for those of you looking at YouTube.

Speaker 2 Open phones at 888-825-5225. Danielle's in New York City.

Speaker 1 Hi, Danielle. How are you?

Speaker 3 Hey, good afternoon, Dave. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. How can we help?

Speaker 3 Well, Dave, I'm calling you because

Speaker 3 I have a question,

Speaker 3 which is,

Speaker 3 how do I bounce back financially and get myself ready for retirement?

Speaker 1 What are you bouncing back from?

Speaker 3 Well, I have been,

Speaker 3 I had an accident in 2007, which left me disabled.

Speaker 3 I had to learn how to walk again.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 And so finally,

Speaker 3 I got to the place where I could do a part-time job because I needed

Speaker 3 the money that I was getting from Social Security disability, and my pension was basically going towards my rent.

Speaker 3 But I started doing that and,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 hurt myself a couple of times, wasn't able to really save up. And then COVID came,

Speaker 3 I was able to get a full-time job, but it was a temp job. So, of course, that wasn't really enough still to, you know, save anything.

Speaker 3 But now I'm going to take a look at that.

Speaker 1 Are you single, Danielle?

Speaker 1 Yes, I am. I am single.
And you're 57. And how are you doing with the disability now? Are you working full-time or how are you doing?

Speaker 3 Praise God, I am working full-time. In fact, I just recently was hired permanently.

Speaker 1 Good. What do you make?

Speaker 3 My salary is $50,600. Okay.

Speaker 1 And you live in the city, in New York City, on $50,000?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Didn't know you could sneeze for $50,000 in downtown New York.

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay.
And you've got pension coming in in addition to that. Are you still getting the Social Security?

Speaker 3 Unfortunately, no.

Speaker 1 No, once you're working,

Speaker 1 no longer qualified for it.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 they stopped my pension.

Speaker 3 And in fact, that's part of the debt that I owe because according to Social Security Disability, I owe them $52,000,

Speaker 3 not to mention

Speaker 3 $17,000 to IRS,

Speaker 3 $8,000.

Speaker 3 I had credit cards, but I owe $8,000 on that. And then

Speaker 1 I've got a friend of mine.

Speaker 3 Well, right now I'm living with a friend of mine,

Speaker 3 so I'm paying $375 a month, but I am trying to get my own place

Speaker 3 because, you know, I love my friend and I want to keep her as a friend.

Speaker 3 But I need my own place.

Speaker 1 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you do. Okay.
All right. And so you've got a total of how much debt?

Speaker 3 A total of 87,000.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And a bunch of that is IRS and repayment to Social Security for the time that you were working and should not have received disability according to them, right?

Speaker 3 Exactly. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Have you fought any of that yet?

Speaker 3 I talked to Social Security. They're saying that I can possibly

Speaker 1 have it for you. Probably.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.
So I think we need to get someone in your corner that's used to fighting that battle because those battles are lengthy,

Speaker 1 but they're doable. And they don't

Speaker 1 come around telling you what all your rights are and what you can pull off there, but there's some things you can do there.

Speaker 1 And it might even affect the IRS bill if you refiled an appeal and refiled an amended return on your tax bill.

Speaker 1 So what I'm going to do, because this is a complicated situation, I'm going to put you with one of our Ramsey coaches and I'm going to pay for it. It's not going to cost you anything.

Speaker 1 And they're going to come in and look at your situation and go at some of these people and see if we can get this $87,000 down to half of that or something by just working the system.

Speaker 1 And then we can work through the rest of it and get it paid off and then start

Speaker 1 building up some kind of a nest egg because you've got to start working towards a nest egg.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it's all about

Speaker 1 cost of living versus what you've got coming in and finding those differences and being able to push that through. So

Speaker 1 you've had a hard road, kiddo. You need somebody to love you well and walk beside you, and we're just those kind of folk.
So you hang on.

Speaker 1 I'll have the Christian pick up and we'll get you one of our coaches as a gift from us. And I think they can help you.
I really do. It's what they do every day.

Speaker 1 They help people negotiate all kinds of debts. But when you're dealing with the IRS and Social Security, it's

Speaker 1 a different

Speaker 1 spirit over that stuff. So, yeah, different world.

Speaker 2 Tell me about the Social Security repayment, Dave. I've never heard that before.

Speaker 1 Well, if you continue, if you're working

Speaker 1 and you're receiving full payout on SSI, which is Social Security for Disability, so she was declared permanently and totally disabled by the government.

Speaker 1 Based on that, they're paying her probably $3,000, $4,000 a month, give or take.

Speaker 1 Might be more, might be less, but somewhere right in there. And it's not unusual.

Speaker 1 Based on the fact that she's permanently disabled and she qualifies to receive Social Security support instead of, or it's different than the retirement you get through Social Security.

Speaker 1 But then when she went back to work, she kind of says, double-dipped. Says, I'm really not permanently disabled anymore.
I've gotten past that.

Speaker 1 I've worked my way through that with therapy or whatever. I'm able to work again, but kept getting the checks.

Speaker 1 And so that's not okay.

Speaker 1 You can't keep getting a check for being permanently disabled when you're no longer permanently disabled, and you've proven that by working.

Speaker 1 If you had a private disability company that you had a disability policy at your work and they were paying you and then you went back to work,

Speaker 1 they would have private investigators following you around with cameras so that they could not have to pay you the disability anymore.

Speaker 2 Do you know if you have to pay tax on SSI benefits? You do not. So if you're getting $4,000.

Speaker 1 And that's where some of that taxes came from. So if we can reduce what's owed back to them,

Speaker 1 then that might reduce that IRS tax bill. Probably.
I'm guessing. I'm fishing around in the dark there, but I think that's what I'm hearing.

Speaker 2 But I can also imagine if you are permanently disabled and we know psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, that going to rehab, doing the hard work, and getting back out there, right, is

Speaker 1 good for everybody.

Speaker 2 That's right. Good for everybody.
But if you're getting a check for $4,000 a month, $48 a year after taxes, right? That means you've got to be making,

Speaker 2 you got to go find a job that pays pretty dang well

Speaker 2 to even get, to come off even.

Speaker 1 Yep. Yep.

Speaker 2 That's tough. That's a tough order.

Speaker 1 Yep. Right? Yep.

Speaker 2 Or human nature is going to say,

Speaker 2 why swim upstream?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because you want to be well. That's why.
I mean, it has to be that way.

Speaker 2 But if she's making 50 grand, then she took a net loss in her house after taxes.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 2 Living in New York City.

Speaker 1 She did. And I think she said they stopped her pension too early, early with release on it based on disability.
So like we had a guy here years ago that was making over

Speaker 1 400 and something thousand, one of our top guys,

Speaker 1 got MS

Speaker 1 and went home. Out.
He was gone.

Speaker 1 He later passed away from it at an early age.

Speaker 1 Went out on disability and the disability people were paying him. The policy we have here maxes at 300K, or it used to.
I don't know what it maxes at today. And so he's getting 300K.

Speaker 1 Man, they were fought on him everywhere.

Speaker 2 I bet so.

Speaker 1 Trying to figure out if he was doing anything, if he lifted a shovel, if he got paid for doing anything, they were going to disallow that claim. So, you know, we were coaching him.

Speaker 1 Whatever you do, no matter how good you're feeling, don't work. Yeah.
Because they're going to, they're, they're going to, the long lens across the parking lot, they're going to capture

Speaker 1 doing anything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, um, uh, and

Speaker 1 because they get defrauded.

Speaker 2 no, I get defrauded. I get offended.
It's just one of those things that just,

Speaker 2 there's not a lot of winners there, right? Because I know they get defrauded and they want to protect their money.

Speaker 1 They swing the pendulum so far that you just have to be paranoid about how you live.

Speaker 2 Or you got to be somebody like, you know, Danielle who says, I'm going to take the net financial loss because I'm worth some different kind of life. Yep.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to have to work extra hard because it's going to cost me money to go get wealth.

Speaker 1 Well, I'll just feel better about my life when that's me. That's right.
Not some check coming in.

Speaker 2 Good for you, Danielle.

Speaker 1 This is the the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us, America. Dr.
John Deloney, Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Kate is with us in Denver.
Hi, Kate. How are you?

Speaker 3 I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 3 So I'm kind of at a loss of what I should do.

Speaker 3 I don't really know how to handle my emotions about my mother's bad financial choices.

Speaker 1 Okay. Why do you have emotions about your mother's

Speaker 3 financial choices? I mean I worry about her. It's mostly anxiety and concern.
Oh she's made some pretty bad financial choices throughout my whole life, so not new.

Speaker 3 But you know, she's getting a little older. She should be getting closer to retirement and her latest

Speaker 3 issue is is leading her to possibly cash in her 401k.

Speaker 3 And I'm really worried for her. And I don't really, I've asked a few friends and family about what I should do, and I don't really know if I've tried talking to her, and it hasn't really worked out.

Speaker 3 She doesn't seem to listen or be interested in changing.

Speaker 3 So I just, I don't know. I know it's not my responsibility, but I still feel that concern for her.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 I think your feelings are right. I think it's just what you do next.
It's the most important.

Speaker 2 And if I was you, I'd feel bad. And I'd feel scared for my mom.
And I'd also feel sad that she doesn't trust me. And then I'd have to go do the next right thing.

Speaker 2 And I wish there was some sort of secret sauce in between that, you know?

Speaker 2 There just isn't. And I think with family, it's just, it's the worst, man, because

Speaker 2 you can't win, you can't lose. It just kind of is sometimes.
And you're heartbroken and you're sad.

Speaker 2 Maybe a last-ditch effort. And Dave, you may have some different thoughts, but is

Speaker 2 I love the idea of writing letters. And here's why.
It's something that people can go back to. And sometimes when we challenge somebody or we ask them a question,

Speaker 2 they hear it through a lens of shame or frustration or who do you think you are. When you write it down, they can go back to it and go back to it and go back to it and go back to it.

Speaker 2 And that's, I mean, you're throwing spaghetti at the wall because nothing else has worked. But that might work.
And just let her know. I love you.

Speaker 2 If you ever want to talk about money, I know that it's scary. If you ever want to talk about it, I've learned some things along the way.
And you've helped me so much.

Speaker 2 And I'd love to help you with this if you ever want to talk. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then you've got to dust your sandals off and go on to the next thing because life's too short.

Speaker 1 You can't do anything about it. I've only seen a couple of things that have any success at all.

Speaker 1 And it has to do with the person you're talking to, not with you. But I know what doesn't work.

Speaker 1 What doesn't work is you sitting down and saying, hey, mom, you suck at this, and I'm going to show you what to do right. That's not going to work at all because you've got the powdered butt syndrome.

Speaker 1 Once someone's powdered your butt, they don't want your opinion on money or sex.

Speaker 1 Okay?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I don't care if you've got a master's degree in finance.

Speaker 1 The one person is not going to listen to you is your parents. So

Speaker 1 a disturbing number of people in my family do nothing I teach.

Speaker 2 And I've got two PhDs. You know how many questions I've ever received about any of those subjects?

Speaker 2 Zero.

Speaker 1 Any of those subjects. Zero.

Speaker 1 That's what you run into. Now, what has worked is the same thing as sharing your faith.

Speaker 1 You can sit down with someone and tell your story.

Speaker 1 Hey, mom, here's where I was broken. Here's where I was scared.
Here's where I was ashamed. Here's where I was running backward with money.
Here's mistakes I made with money. And I stopped doing that.

Speaker 1 And instead, I did this. And when I got on a budget and I worked at that snowball, I paid off $57,000 worth of debt in 18 months.
And I know you're proud of me for doing that.

Speaker 1 And I just want to tell you,

Speaker 1 it's an amazing sense now that I've got a power over this and I didn't use to. That's your story.
And no one really gets upset hardly with you telling your story, even your mother.

Speaker 1 And sometimes we're doing that with the hope that she will say something like, wow, I wish I could do that. Well, she just opened the door.
Or, man, I could never do that. Yeah, you could.

Speaker 1 She just opened the door, right?

Speaker 1 And so we're trying to get her to ask you a question or make a comment that gives you an entree into the living room of her mind.

Speaker 1 The second one that has worked is if you have a family member or close family friend that is respected by her

Speaker 1 that is very good with money, she might listen to them a whole lot easier than she will you.

Speaker 3 That makes sense? Yeah, that's really good advice, actually, because

Speaker 3 there are actually a few accountants in my family that I think she might listen to a little bit more. It's more of like a fundamental difference of opinion.
Yeah. As she's just

Speaker 4 very much not a fundamental difference of opinion.

Speaker 1 She sucks at handling money. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's not a difference of opinion. She's just wrong.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And what we've got to do is get bad information and she's acting on it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's not.

Speaker 3 I'd much rather be happy now than plan for the future.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's just that's a four-year-old.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I'd rather be happy now than plan for the future has not worked well.

Speaker 2 And she's not happy.

Speaker 1 She's using that as an excuse to buy crap she can't afford with money she doesn't have to impress people she doesn't even really like. And she's going to retire broke.

Speaker 1 Now she's painted herself into a corner and is cashing out of 401k. So her system sucks.

Speaker 1 Her belief system sucks.

Speaker 1 So for her sake, if anybody could inject a new set of software into that brain, where she started looking at this differently, whether it's an uncle or an aunt or your story opens up a thought pattern for her, or maybe the maybe the desperation of now she's looking at I'm going to have to retire and eat Alpo, something opens her up to be able to talk, then that's the best thing that can happen to her.

Speaker 1 Because, I mean, why did I go broke? Because I was stupid. The stuff I was doing was freaking brain damaged.
And that's what made me go broke. So, I mean, I got a Ph.D.
in DUMB.

Speaker 1 I know exactly what it looks like. And that wasn't a difference in opinion.
It was stupid versus smart. That's not a difference in opinion.
That's just right and wrong, evil and good.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, and that there is truth in this world. The law of gravity works for everyone.

Speaker 1 You know, so, yeah. But I think you keep inserting yourself.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the other thing is, is

Speaker 1 I think you could push right up into the edge of this as long as she feels how much you love her while you're doing this.

Speaker 1 But you can't smack somebody in the back of their head unless you got your arm around their shoulder first.

Speaker 1 You got to have a quality relationship.

Speaker 2 Here's a heavy other side. When you talk about your emotions feeling out of control, often they are feeling out of control and we cast that on somebody else.

Speaker 2 So you think you're emotional about your mom's expenditures or the way she's living.

Speaker 2 I bet if you spend some time with it, you're actually emotional about what this is going to mean for you later. You're going to be faced with, am I going to pay for mom?

Speaker 2 Am I going to take care of mom? Am I going to let my mom eat alcohol?

Speaker 2 So you're casting it on her right now because you're watching it, but really your body knows this is going to be in your lap in five years, 10 years, 15, 20 years.

Speaker 2 So I think a lot of the emotional exercise that you can do, the only thing you can control here is go ahead now and make some boundaries about what this is going to mean 20 years from now.

Speaker 2 Are you going to pay for it? Are you just going to start put a sinking fund away to take care of mom one day? Or I'm not going to do this. I'm going to make peace with it.
I'm going to end it.

Speaker 2 But you can decide what your boundaries are going to be and and think about that stuff into the future and begin to control that because that's really all the control you got.

Speaker 1 Yep. Absolutely.
Good question, Kate. And a lot of people in America are facing those exact same emotions with their parents and or their grown kids.

Speaker 1 Some of you are what we call the sandwich generation. You're getting squeezed by broke parents and broke grown kids, and you're squeezed right in the middle.

Speaker 1 And all the baloney is coming out with the squeezing. I can tell you that.

Speaker 2 I thought you said baloney for a second. No, good.

Speaker 1 Just baloney. I said baloney.
I'm careful to enunciate that word around you. All right, good.
Because

Speaker 1 you have a serious psychological.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 You have a wound around that, and it triggers you, I know. That's right.
So, hey, the best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a monthly budget.

Speaker 1 Every dollar makes it simple to plan spending, track expenses, and keep the pulse on everything.

Speaker 1 Every dollar is upgraded and iterated almost every month. We have a whole floor of people working on this software all the time.
It is the world's best budgeting app.

Speaker 1 Tens of millions of people are using it. John, you said you guys had an interesting experience the other day doing an Every Dollar webinar.
You and George? What it was?

Speaker 2 Oh, it was me and Chris Campbell.

Speaker 1 Me and Chris Campbell.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 it's just amazing watching people walk through that thing.

Speaker 2 And there was the number of people who jumped in who were baby step seveners who were buying it for, offering to buy it for the people who are just over their head and wondering,

Speaker 2 I can't breathe what I do now.

Speaker 1 There were generous people sitting in the webinar and pretty amazing. That was cool.

Speaker 2 I've never seen that, never heard of that, but it was pretty rad. Pretty rad.
That's neat.

Speaker 2 But it's folks who have been through it, they use it, and they realize, oh, this was a path to freedom for my family. I'd love to pass this thing on.
Pretty cool, man.

Speaker 1 Neat. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Dr. John Deloney.
Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1 If you haven't heard, the Ramsey Network app is where you get the last segment of the show every day.

Speaker 1 We moved it onto the Ramsey Network app. You can download the app for free.
We've got all kinds of other stuff on the Ramsey Network app. It's completely free.
We don't charge a thing for this.

Speaker 1 And it's where the Trump interview will hit first on Tuesday. And then it will pop up that Donald Trump interview that I did yesterday in New York will pop up on podcast and on YouTube on Wednesday.

Speaker 1 So never fear, you'll get it wherever you are. But if you want to download that, one of the things you can do on the Ramsey Network app is ask a

Speaker 1 This one comes from Candace.

Speaker 1 We aren't high-income earners, but managed to set up a college fund for our daughter from an inheritance we received 15 years ago. College fund has enough to attend her number one school and pay cash.

Speaker 1 However, she has a full tuition scholarship to a different state school that will provide a good education, but she still wants to go to her first choice school.

Speaker 1 Do we encourage her to go to the cheaper school and save $40,000 or her dream school?

Speaker 2 I don't know what school is going to only cost $40,000, maybe a year,

Speaker 1 maybe a year.

Speaker 2 So I was just pulling up some data here.

Speaker 1 By the way, John has a PhD in higher education. Yeah, so I'll let you weigh in on that.

Speaker 2 It's been a few years. So ultimately, here's kind of the breakdown.
There is what they would call an earnings premium by a selective institution, but here's, you got to drill into what it means.

Speaker 2 What does that mean? If you go to a fancier school, you do, there is some data that says you come out with a higher salary.

Speaker 2 What they don't tell you is those fancier schools self-select. So if your kid is earned a full ride, then her test scores are good.
She is a hard worker.

Speaker 2 And what they say is that premium dissolves when you factor in test scores, like grit, and all these other things.

Speaker 1 So meaning if you select thoroughbreds only for your school.

Speaker 1 Of course your school

Speaker 1 because of who you selected. That's right.
It's a pre-selection.

Speaker 1 Because the thoroughbred can run fast no matter which school they went to. That's right.

Speaker 2 So ultimately, I think what if you look at it all across the board, what a premium school, if you will, whatever you want to call that, is there may be a

Speaker 2 premium classmate selection, meaning you're more likely to be, sit by the Elon Musk who's going to start a company and they're going to call you because they're friends and y'all room together.

Speaker 2 Whereas if you go to a state school, that might not, the chance of that happening, you might have less thoroughbreds everywhere. There might be a few thoroughbreds in here and there.

Speaker 2 All I have to say is this.

Speaker 2 If you've got cash,

Speaker 2 if it's an incredible institution, yada, yada, I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is a 18-year-old saying, this is my dream and you spending money on that.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 If your kid gets into Yale and you want to say, okay, Yale's got a premium, they got the best architecture program in the world, I'm all about that.

Speaker 2 If your kid says, I felt at home at this place and it made me feel warm and fuzzy, it's my dream. And this other school is saying, you can come here for free.

Speaker 2 My kid in my house is going to go to the school that's there for free.

Speaker 2 And so I'm not going to be drugged around by my kids' quote-unquote dreams.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think you need to continue to have a conversation with them about what they're getting for what you're spending.

Speaker 2 That's a great.

Speaker 1 And if they cannot have that conversation logically, I'm going to override them. That's called parenting.

Speaker 1 Because it's my freaking money, by the way,

Speaker 1 not yours.

Speaker 1 We're going to talk about that. So you can come out this way and buy a house right after you graduate with the the money we had saved for college.

Speaker 2 I love that. That to me is a really compelling

Speaker 2 educational expenses and housing coming out of school. Those are the two things that make it tough for a new grad.
We can take that off the table.

Speaker 1 We all went to the University of Tennessee, and the Ramsey kids were required to go to the University of Tennessee,

Speaker 1 for lots of reasons.

Speaker 1 But I'm kidding. Not really.
But yeah, not much. But anyway, one child who might be named something that sounds like Rachel actually applied to an out-of-state

Speaker 1 Southeastern Conference college, which shall go unnamed, which was $14,000 more a year to go to basically the same level of education, maybe even less,

Speaker 1 for $14,000 more simply because it went across the state line. Can we click on that real quick? And I just said, I'm your father.
Not paying for it. No, I'm not paying for it.

Speaker 2 So there is actually a move where public state schools, because their tuition in-state is often capped or they have to go through the legislature.

Speaker 2 So they have a premium on out-of-state students that they can charge for the same seat a because you're not a citizen of this state, I can charge you an out-of-state tuition fee.

Speaker 2 And there's actual recruiting efforts to go get those kids as though their experience would be so radically different.

Speaker 2 But they go after your 18-year-old saying, I know you are next to UT Knoxville, but if you just cross the state and look at our state school,

Speaker 1 madness. Madness.

Speaker 1 One of the worst ones was I talked to a girl here on the air one day who was in South Carolina, and I said, why don't you go to South Carolina? She said, no, I want to go to Mississippi.

Speaker 1 I said, why do you want to go to Mississippi? South Carolina is a good school. Mississippi is a good school.
They're both Southeastern Conference

Speaker 1 state universities. I mean, it's a,

Speaker 1 I mean, fairly close baseline. We could argue about

Speaker 1 little stuff. But I mean, I'm like, why? What is it that's drawn? It's my dream.
Why is it your dream? Same kind of crap, right? And finally, I'm like, what?

Speaker 1 She said, the houses in Oxford are so beautiful.

Speaker 1 This is why you're going to spend 14 grand extra to look at other people's houses for four years.

Speaker 1 So I'm just like,

Speaker 1 where's your parents?

Speaker 1 Someone needs to take your little self and say no. No, little self.
You can't do that, little self. Bad plan, little self.

Speaker 2 So, I mean, to answer this, if my kid comes to me and says, dad, I got accepted to Stanford. I want to study computer science and whatever.

Speaker 2 And I have the money saved up to send my kid to Stanford and he can articulate here, I don't have a problem at all. Not all day, every day.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 And but if he says, dad, I want to go to University of North Carolina and I live in Tennessee and he got accepted to UT Knoxville, I can't do the math there. It's illogical.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you're going to study marketing and logistics, or let's just say supply chain, which the University of Tennessee has one of the top schools in the nation, University of Michigan is one of the other ones, okay,

Speaker 1 on supply chain. If you're going to study supply chain, you're going to come out of University of Tennessee making probably right at $100,000 right now now with that degree.

Speaker 1 If you want to go to Vanderbilt and study the same thing, you're going to get a substandard education at Vanderbilt on that particular subject.

Speaker 1 And you're going to pay $75,000 a year instead of $12,000 a year.

Speaker 1 Now, that's stupid

Speaker 1 to say that you went to Vanderbilt. Because my upper limp is sunburned because I went to Vanderbilt and my nose is in the air.

Speaker 1 That's just bullcrap. That's just stupid.

Speaker 1 I'm not against Vanderbilt other than their football, which they don't play well. But the, I mean, I, I, there's, I've got a niece that graduated from Vanderbilt.
She had a free ride there. Yes.

Speaker 1 And then went on to be a lawyer and is a partner in a law firm. Yeah.
Right. You know, and so great.
That's awesome. No problem with that.
But don't go there

Speaker 1 and, you know, kick in your false, falsetta

Speaker 1 accent as you're doing it because I'm going to kill you. I'm going to write you up.
Because, I mean, I went to the University of Tennessee and people that went to Vanderbilt work for me.

Speaker 1 So I know it's not necessarily better all the time. Okay, so

Speaker 1 you've got to think this stuff through logically. You have to put some critical thinking to it.
A, can you pay for it? If you can't pay for it, it's off the table.

Speaker 1 B, what's the opportunity cost on this money? What could she buy if she goes to this other school? And then what's the benefit if she goes to the famous school, the dream school, so to speak?

Speaker 1 But yeah, be careful with that word dream.

Speaker 1 Because that may mean my boyfriend's going there.

Speaker 2 That was, yes. Yes.
I'll just leave it at that.

Speaker 1 You're correct, sir. And there's a hundred percent chance of breaking up with that boyfriend.
Just like right at a hundred, it's like 90 something.

Speaker 1 The statistical evidence is really bad. So I'm kidding, but not much.
So

Speaker 1 yeah, be careful if you're following your love around and it's costing you 20 grand a year. Okay.

Speaker 1 That's a bad plan. You can buy a lot of airline tickets for that crap.
So think this stuff through. Moms and dads, get involved.

Speaker 1 It is your job to keep your kid from doing something that's going to cost them a decade of their life.

Speaker 2 And by the way, I have a freshman in high school. It starts now.
I'm shocked by it, but it starts now. And so that means the conversations around your dinner table have to start now.

Speaker 1 Ours started when they were six because we taught them to sing Rocky Top.

Speaker 1 Just depends on how early you want to brainwash or indoctrinate or manipulate or teach. Whatever you want to call it, John.
Just whatever you want to call it here.

Speaker 2 What's that great? There's a great Homer Simpson quote that says, the best part about being a parent is you get to teach them to hate the things that you hate.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's Alabama. Okay.
Now,

Speaker 2 did you know half of your listening audience just like, like, almost like, like, subconsciously just shouted out, roll tide, without even, they couldn't help it. It just came out of their arm pockets.

Speaker 1 A visceral response. Well, it's going to be a great football game this Saturday, I can tell you that.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 From the Ramsey Network, it's the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Your host next to me is Dr. John Deloney.
We're going to take calls about your life and your money.

Speaker 4 We're going to help you build a life that you love. We're going to help you build wealth.
We're going to help you with your careers and your relationships.

Speaker 4 It is a live show, so you can give us a call. The number is 888-825-5225, and we'll get you in on the line.
All right, John, you ready to get into it?

Speaker 2 Let's go.

Speaker 4 All right, Kristen is in San Antonio, Texas. What's up, Kristen?

Speaker 4 Hello.

Speaker 1 What's up? Yes.

Speaker 3 So my question for you, I'll get right to it, is my husband and I did a boo-boo.

Speaker 2 Weaw is not that kind of show.

Speaker 1 What did y'all do, Kristen? Well, financially,

Speaker 3 so we had a

Speaker 3 high amount of debt, and we had the brilliant idea prior to hearing about Dave Ramsey, of course, to do one of those lovely

Speaker 3 debt consolidation companies that basically,

Speaker 3 you know, we pay into, I mean, into it, and then they negotiate,

Speaker 3 I guess,

Speaker 3 the pot that we have contributed to.

Speaker 3 And now we know Dave Ramsey, and it's an uh-oh, we shouldn't have done that, but

Speaker 3 we're not sure what we should do. We have $3,000 put in the pot already.

Speaker 4 What's the total debt that

Speaker 4 you've consolidated?

Speaker 3 $37,000. Okay.

Speaker 4 So they're saying they set up a pla a payment plan for you where you pay X amount a month, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 How much is a lot of our income? $831 a month.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 And what is your income every month?

Speaker 3 Well, I am self-employed, so it's kind of iffy, but we go about,

Speaker 3 I would say, about 6,000.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 so your thought is like, all right, how do I get out of this? Because you're also paying them something, right?

Speaker 3 Oh, yes.

Speaker 4 How much of this goes to them?

Speaker 3 So basically, the last time I talked to them, they basically said we have about 3,200 in the pool, I guess you can say.

Speaker 3 And after three months, we still haven't heard anything as far far as them negotiating yet.

Speaker 3 But we're also working on our debts, other debts, just small things that we are doing the debt small ball to and have a budget, and we're sticking to it.

Speaker 3 But we're also house poor, so that takes a lot of our income as well.

Speaker 4 What percentage is that

Speaker 4 on your mortgage?

Speaker 3 40%.

Speaker 1 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 4 It could be worse, but

Speaker 4 that's pretty tough right there. 40%, you're feeling that in a major way, and you've got this consolidation in a situation where you're not really able to control it.

Speaker 4 What happens if you don't pay what you've said you will pay?

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 3 what I have, all I've,

Speaker 3 I should have asked them that question, but

Speaker 3 the only thing they said is if you do decide to walk away, you will get your money back.

Speaker 1 Okay. Okay.
3,000.

Speaker 4 Okay. So they're they're pooling the money.
They haven't actually put it towards any of the debt yet.

Speaker 1 Correct.

Speaker 3 And it's we're kind of deciding, okay, do we do we just keep the money in there and keep on pooling or

Speaker 1 something?

Speaker 2 So Jay, Jade, Kristen, I'm going to ask Jade this question because she knows more about this than I do, but my understanding about most of these companies is they will

Speaker 2 hold your money. They wait until you default.

Speaker 2 So they're crashing your car for you. And then

Speaker 2 then the credit card companies will sue you or who you owe money will sue and then they will take the money that you've put in that pot and use that to say what if we wrote you a check for three thousand dollars today

Speaker 2 but you're the casualty do you get what i'm saying all right yes and so they come off looking like the hero but they crash your car and then using your money instead of paying the payments that would have kept your car from being crashed then they come out and be like look at what we did for you but you're on the side of the road with no car and everything's in ash that That, yeah,

Speaker 3 100% heartbeat because we have so we don't have enough to pay like all there are three separate credit cards.

Speaker 4 Okay, so that's all this 37,000 is. That's what the 37,000 is, is three separate credit cards?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 Um, here, here, if I'm in your shoes, if I wake up in your shoes, I'm trying to get out of this because in this situation, you want to have control.

Speaker 4 And I feel like right now you don't have the control. That would probably give you more peace.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 4 that's there's two like big red blinking lights here. That's one big red blinking light is

Speaker 4 you can do that for yourself. Like, if you said to yourself, I'm just going to crash my credit and then I'm going to do this, you could do that for yourself and still be in control of it.

Speaker 4 I don't think it's to that point. I don't think you do have to default.
I think you can just pay these people above what you owe them and pay it off relatively quickly.

Speaker 4 You make seven, you, you net $72,000 a year.

Speaker 4 So I think you can make this happen. And you mentioned that you have a side business or your own business, which also lets me know there's no ceiling to what you could be earning.

Speaker 4 There's a way for you to increase your income. Am I right?

Speaker 3 Yes, and I work every single day.

Speaker 4 Excellent. Excellent.

Speaker 4 So if I'm you coming away from this call, I'm going to,

Speaker 4 if they said, hey, if you walk away from this, you get your money back, I'm going to go back and say, I. I don't want to do this and I'm going to try to get out of it.

Speaker 4 If they give you some sort of runaround or there's some fee on the back end, call us back. We'll help you with it.

Speaker 4 The house is the other big glaring light. It's 40% of your income.
How long have you been in this house?

Speaker 3 Only a year and a half.

Speaker 4 Okay. And did you get in at 40% of your income or did something happen and your income plummeted or the payment went up? What happened?

Speaker 3 Income plummeted. My husband and I moved from a different city and we had to find a place to live.

Speaker 3 And that was the one available. And we're like, okay, we can do this.
And then they stopped his overtime.

Speaker 4 That's tough.

Speaker 4 I don't see a pathway for you to clear this debt

Speaker 4 in a way that makes sense and keep this house.

Speaker 4 Do you?

Speaker 3 I really don't. I mean, we're working as much as we can.
We're budgeting what we can. I mean, but it's just not making a good dent.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 There's not much margin left over.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's that classic hole-to-shovel ratio. And what makes us move faster is that bigger shovel, right? Because I'm guessing you're at a beer bombs budget.

Speaker 3 Yes. And then we have about

Speaker 3 40, no, 60 in equity, obviously.

Speaker 3 So we basically break even and I guess we could rent, but man, it's hard to.

Speaker 3 We have two girls.

Speaker 1 It's hard to. How old are you, Kristen?

Speaker 3 I am 43. Okay.

Speaker 2 If you were my sister i would tell you to do that exact thing

Speaker 2 okay and here's why i would

Speaker 1 want

Speaker 2 that break-even what it like mathematically it feels like oh my gosh we're just at zero um

Speaker 2 but that zeroing out is i want you to think of it as like a set of chain cutters and you just cut a chain

Speaker 2 So you, yeah, you're right. You don't have, you don't have anything, but nobody's nobody's got you.

Speaker 2 Right. Do you know what I'm saying? And that in your home is a different kind of peace than what you're living with right now.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm with John. I would get out of this home because not for many reasons.
A, you just, even if you called in here and everything was great, you didn't have any debt, da, da, da, da, da.

Speaker 4 But if it was 40% of your income, that is bondage. That is a burden.
That is not a blessing that a home should be.

Speaker 4 And even if you were debt-free, having a mortgage that's 40% would make it tough to get where you need to be financially and accomplish your other goals. This is The Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 All right, you're listening to The Ramsey Show. I'm Jade Warshaw.
Next to me, Dr. John Deloney.
We're taking your calls. If you want to get in, it's a live show.
You can get in where you fit in.

Speaker 4 888-825-5225 is the number. You can call about anything pertaining to your life and your money, and we will hook you up with the best possible advice that we can come up with.

Speaker 4 John and I just pool our resources and come up with the best possible.

Speaker 2 I'm definitely the shallow end of that pool.

Speaker 4 It's fun. We have a good time.
Michelle's in Buffalo, New York. Oh, what's going on, Michelle?

Speaker 3 Yes. Hi.
I just wanted to say before I ask my question, we're not free.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited.

Speaker 4 That's awesome. How much did you pay off?

Speaker 3 Oh, gosh. Let me think.
I think it was close to almost $30,000,

Speaker 3 maybe $40,000.

Speaker 3 It was just a couple couple cars and a couple credit cards, and I just went after it. Well, we went after it.

Speaker 1 How long did it take you? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Since 2021, so roughly like three years.

Speaker 4 Yeah, three years. Very cool.

Speaker 2 Hey, real quick, Michelle.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, Jayden and I have been repeatedly told you can't pay off debts in New York.

Speaker 4 It's too expensive.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just impossible to do. Are you sure you did the math right?

Speaker 3 I know, right?

Speaker 3 It was hustle, especially this summer. I was working six days a week.
I was working anywhere from, you know, eight, nine hours.

Speaker 3 Wow. I just didn't stop.
My husband, of course, was working full-time as well. We went without a lot.

Speaker 3 Not a lot of going out to dinner, not a lot of clothes shopping, just the necessities, you know, what we actually needed.

Speaker 3 Working at home, you know, the typical stuff that you guys talk about and just doing it.

Speaker 4 Listen,

Speaker 4 here it is again. The dream is free.
The hustle is sold separately. We've been trying to tell people that.
And you did the hustle and so you got the dream. I'm proud of you.
Really excited.

Speaker 4 How can we help you today?

Speaker 3 My biggest question now that I'm on baby step number three,

Speaker 3 my house, I have about seven and a half years left to pay on my house. It's roughly about $95,000.

Speaker 3 And my daughter will be graduating high school in about five years or well, graduating from high school in about five five years okay so I'm trying to figure out what the best choice is because I know if I hustle again I could pay this house off in about two years

Speaker 3 but that five years is looming over me and I want to make you know a decent dent for her so that she doesn't have to have any school loans at all so you're saying if I go hard in the paint for two to three years, I don't put anything aside in a 529, I can have this house paid off.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I wouldn't do that.

Speaker 4 wouldn't because there's a reason that these baby steps are in order. And that's ultimately to serve you best, right? Some people don't have somebody that they're going to have to put through college.

Speaker 4 And so, yeah, they could skip forward. But in your case, I mean, you said it out of your own mouth.
You want her to be able to go through college without taking out the loans.

Speaker 4 And so you will be set up. The plan allows you a position to be able to do that, right? First, we're going to get six, three, three, let's say three months put aside for you.

Speaker 4 Maybe at six months, you get to decide that. You'll start investing 15% into your retirement because you're putting your mask on first.

Speaker 4 And then you get to say, all right, what can I afford to put aside for her while I'm still affording to do my 15%?

Speaker 4 And then you might decide what that number is. And another thing that's really going to inform this is what school you guys decide on because that, John, school choice is everything.

Speaker 4 Choosing a place you can afford.

Speaker 2 Where does she want to go to school? Yeah. Please say she doesn't know because she's only in eighth grade.

Speaker 3 Well, yes, but we actually have been talking about it and we have been talking about state school.

Speaker 3 So roughly, you know, one state school is roughly in full, I think it was like close to $60,000 for the four years. And the other one was just about half.
It was actually a lot cheaper.

Speaker 3 So it kind of depends on what she wants to go for. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Listen, I just want to remind you that. Paying off the mortgage is super important.
I want you to do that. I want you to accomplish that.
You will accomplish that.

Speaker 4 But there is not a mad rush to the finish line on that. Baby steps one through three, you are biting ankles to get, you know, I'm saying, past that finish line.

Speaker 4 But for the other baby steps, it's not like that. You don't have to,

Speaker 4 you don't have to go to those extents. Like you said, you've got seven years left

Speaker 4 in a normal frame. You've got seven years before this house is paid off.
I think that's pretty freaking awesome.

Speaker 4 And so you don't have to crush yourself and you don't have to put your daughter's paid for education at risk in order to make that happen faster.

Speaker 4 Hear John and I say that that is not part of the plan. It is not a requirement for you.
And I wouldn't do it. I would put that money aside.

Speaker 4 I would take care of a baby girl and then you will be living in a paid-for house shortly after that.

Speaker 2 And it's not going to take you seven years. You know that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's no way. Yeah.
No pitting.

Speaker 2 No pitting. So

Speaker 3 that's why I'm so eager to get it done because I'm so close.

Speaker 2 I know. So

Speaker 2 in the same way that... Jade and I are often arguing with people,

Speaker 2 probably unsuccessfully, that I don't care about the interest rates.

Speaker 2 Like that this is a psychology game and just trust us, just pay this off. It works for millions of people.
The same principle applies here and that's this.

Speaker 2 I get that you have a math problem and you've got a set of, you've got an energy right now about you.

Speaker 2 We've just done this so long that if you try to baby step to your house with just maniacal intensity, what we see is people burn out and they just say, screw it.

Speaker 2 yeah and so I don't see it Jade and I can talk to you two are blue in the face and I'm gonna tell you I go I go over the top on my

Speaker 2 on on a mortgage right I go over the top on it

Speaker 2 and I still can't treat it like baby step two because then my house isn't a house we're living in you see what I'm saying

Speaker 3 yeah and so

Speaker 2 I think your next psychological move is to practice slowing down just a wee bit

Speaker 2 and not and realizing you're not losing the momentum. You're not losing anything.
You're just now you're starting to settle into this thing.

Speaker 2 It's like when you're in a race car and you hit the gas real hard for that first, you lose your breath and then your body catches up and now you're cruising. That's where you're at now.

Speaker 1 You're still going real, real, real fast.

Speaker 2 It's just you're not running for your life.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And if you really do think about like numbers and opportunity costs on this, let me try to play this out outside of my own brain.
If you said, okay, instead of

Speaker 4 let's play it the way you thought you wanted to play it, I'm going to go balls to the wall paying off this mortgage and I'm going to have it done in two years.

Speaker 4 Well, if you did that, then suddenly you don't have enough money to pay for baby girls college outright.

Speaker 4 So next thing you do, you're looking for student loans and the interest on that is going to be worse than what you would have. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4 Like, if you really are looking at the numbers on it, I'm like, there's no way in the world I'd want to set myself up for the interest on a student loan payment in order to pay off my house a little bit faster.

Speaker 4 Because some of those loans, you're at 8%.

Speaker 4 percent you know what i mean so i definitely for many reasons but that's just another reason that came to my head if you're a person who's really like playing a shell game here which i don't think you are i just think that you're excited about your house um i don't think this is a numbers thing for you as much as it is as a i just want to be free i want to be done with it and i can relate to that 100

Speaker 4 so yeah just keep Keep on trucking. I think what John said is right.
You're going to be done in less than seven years.

Speaker 1 i think you're done in four years

Speaker 2 and i think you've got um a chunk thrown away for your daughter's college and then i think you can help cash flow and y'all can work together on cash flow and the rest of it that's what happened i like that i like it i like it thank you thank you for the call can i just tell you we're proud of you

Speaker 1 Thank you. I appreciate that.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 It's amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. Good for you.

Speaker 4 Very, very good. All right, John.
We have the Ramsey Network app. If you don't know about it, you can go over there to listen to the final hour of the show.

Speaker 4 But you guys also are able to turn in questions over there. And so, we have one.

Speaker 4 This person says, We aren't high-income earners, but managed to set up a college fund for our daughter from an inheritance that she received 15 years ago.

Speaker 4 The college fund has enough to attend her one school and pay cash.

Speaker 4 However, she has a full scholarship to a different state school that will provide a good education, but she still wants to go to her first school choice.

Speaker 4 Do we encourage her to go to the cheaper school and save $40,000 or her dream school?

Speaker 2 Thoughts? Yeah, it's um, it's Dave and I were talking about this in a previous hour.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 it's a long, complicated thing, but at the end of the day, I'm not ever going to fund an 18-year-old's quote-unquote dream.

Speaker 2 I want to know if you have the money to pay for an elite school and there's a reason to go to this elite school.

Speaker 2 My kid wants to go be,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 social media guy. If he's a social media guy, that doesn't want to do that.
We're coming up on the break. Here's this.

Speaker 2 If you have the money to pay for it and there's a reason to go to that school and it's thought thought through, great.

Speaker 2 Otherwise, go to the free school and help your kid put a down payment on the house when they graduate.

Speaker 1 Love it.

Speaker 4 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 What's going on? You're listening to the Ramsey Show. I'm Jade.
Next to me is Dr. John Deloney.

Speaker 4 And today's question of the day is brought to you by YReFi.

Speaker 4 Politicians make a lot of promises and sometimes they might even keep one or two of them. But if you're in over your head with private student loans, don't rely on the government.
Contact YReFi.

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Speaker 4 This may not be available in all states.

Speaker 2 Today's question comes from Jill in Michigan. She writes, We have two children and I work full-time to bring home about $4,000 a month plus some random bonuses.

Speaker 2 My My husband only earns an average of $600 a month from his commission-only job. Together, this is not enough to pay our bills, much less our debt.

Speaker 2 We've already cut spending, but we have a $900 a month debt payment that he didn't tell me about until he was in over his head.

Speaker 2 All of this is wrecking our marriage, and I'm trying so hard not to be resentful. How do I get him to see that I'm not meant to carry all this on my own?

Speaker 2 He's supposed to be the biblical head of our family.

Speaker 1 What do you think, Jade? Oh, gosh.

Speaker 4 My husband only earns an average of $600 a month.

Speaker 4 That's the problem

Speaker 4 beyond anything else. Like, it's not even a thing of

Speaker 4 biblical head of house. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, if he was single, he couldn't live on that.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 4 So it's just not like right now, looking numbers wise, I'm going numbers wise, there's an income problem, period.

Speaker 4 No matter who brings the money in, by the way, he or she, it's a numbers issue there.

Speaker 4 But then there is obviously a relational issue because she's viewing him in a light and in a gender role

Speaker 4 and he clearly doesn't see it that way.

Speaker 2 Well, it's a respect issue. Like she doesn't respect a guy.
And I think you're right. I think it's less about the role than as much as.

Speaker 2 Our family's struggling and you don't care that our family's struggling. And that could be a dad not helping change diapers at night.
That could be a dad.

Speaker 2 I think my 14-year-old makes $600 a month. So I don't know how this works out this way.

Speaker 2 But to me, this is somebody who is

Speaker 2 lost respect in a man who's going to watch his family drown

Speaker 2 and just be sitting on his couch, not making any money. And so then you start coming up with stories and ideas and you got to be doing this and you should be doing this.

Speaker 2 That's somebody who's desperate saying. You're watching your wife and your kids suffer and you're not doing anything about it.

Speaker 4 Okay, then tell, I agree with you. Tell me this because I can't begin to get into the mind of a male, you know,

Speaker 2 it's a very simple, simple, simple box.

Speaker 1 You're like, it's, it's, it's a not a lot going on up there.

Speaker 4 So you said it, not me. Uh,

Speaker 4 what happened? What has to be going on with a, a guy to, to sit and watch this happen? Because my brain goes to, wow, my dude must be down in the dump.

Speaker 4 Like something's got to be going on that you would be able to watch that and feel either helpless to do anything about it or ostrich syndrome, something's going on that he's just not dialed in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if it's a matter of shame.
I don't know if it's a matter of

Speaker 2 like a delusional guy. I don't know if he, if there's more to this story, that he also is drinking.
He has gambling issues. Yeah, it's the $900 a month debt.
Right.

Speaker 2 Or if he's playing video games with his buddies. I don't know underneath all of that.
So I think the generous thing we can say is he started a commission-only job and it hadn't worked out. And

Speaker 2 he is really struggling with depression.

Speaker 2 He is ashamed to look at himself in the mirror, and it's hard to shift out of that.

Speaker 2 That's the generous. The ungenerous is he is a spoiled brat man-child, and Jill's been his mom way more than she's been his wife.
And he's beat down, she's beat down.

Speaker 2 And here's the deal: at the end of the day, and I'm going to say this

Speaker 2 and not unapologetically,

Speaker 2 this family is not, they're not in a position. I don't care.
You have to to get up and help your family. There's just a there's a period to it, right? So

Speaker 2 you can

Speaker 2 go get some counseling. You can go get some support.
You can go get some care. Your family's drowning.

Speaker 2 You got to quit this commission-only job. You can go make more money than this by a long shot.
You can four or five X this at McDonald's, right? Yes. And so that's why I said it.

Speaker 4 He must be somewhere deep and dark if he

Speaker 1 or delusional. Or delusional.

Speaker 2 And I've met those dudes who are like, no, bro, I got a plan. I got this thing.
And so they're always scheming, always whatever. So there's a lot more to this.
And

Speaker 2 let's just go ahead and be fair across the board. It may have been, he may have realized after two kids that, and Jill's hard on him, that he lives in a failure factory.
I can't please you.

Speaker 2 I can't do anything. I'm just going to, here's the deal.
None of that matters. Your kids are struggling.
Your spouse is struggling. You got to go make some more money.
And I love how you said it.

Speaker 2 You couldn't support yourself on this much money.

Speaker 2 At least take care of yourself, right? So all I have to say is

Speaker 2 there's a time to mourn, and there's a time to grieve, and there's a time to struggle, struggle, struggle. I'm with you, and you got to go, you got to go figure this out.

Speaker 4 Okay, so

Speaker 4 we've talked about this from the point of view of what he needs to do.

Speaker 4 She's the one who wrote the letter. How do I get him to see that I'm not meant to carry this alone? You don't.

Speaker 1 You can't.

Speaker 2 I think she has to do. She has to, I mean, going back to if it's general, if he's really struggling, right?

Speaker 2 Hey, honey, I'm going to go see a counselor and I'd love for you to join me. Like, I'm going to be a part of your healing process because I know you're not well.

Speaker 2 And I see a light on the other end of this thing.

Speaker 2 If he's a man-child who's gambling too much or drinking too much or playing video games too much or whatever.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because $900 a month, that's like a $30,000 or $40,000 bill somewhere.

Speaker 2 At least. Yeah, that's a chunk, right?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 she has to do the next right thing, which is make sure my children are safe. Yeah.
Right. And so I've got to start creating a world where we are okay.

Speaker 2 And that's where I've got to start doing my four walls stuff.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And sometimes you can do that inside of a house. Sometimes you got to leave a marriage because this goes back to that fidelity thing.
I think we think about fidelity as always about

Speaker 2 like romantic cheating. I think fidelity is a way bigger thing than that.

Speaker 1 I agree.

Speaker 2 You can cheat on your spouse at a golf course. You can cheat on, you cannot be a person of fidelity, integrity.
by not working, by just laying around playing video games.

Speaker 2 That is me not being committed to this. I'm choosing somebody else or something else over you.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 2 That's fidelity. So, all I have to say is she's got to be honest about he's not coming around.
He has no interest in us. He'd rather drink.
He'd rather gamble. He'd rather do other stuff.

Speaker 2 So I have to do the next right hard, scary thing, which is I got to protect me and my kids.

Speaker 2 And that stinks, and that's hard. And nobody wants to go down that road.
So she needs to go get with a professional in her local area and begin to map out what that looks like.

Speaker 1 Ooh,

Speaker 1 that's tough.

Speaker 2 My hope is he's a man who's stuck and he's not doing well.

Speaker 2 And her choosing to not beat him up and not choose to disrespect him, but choose to walk alongside him and say, hey, I'm willing to go help you get well if you are.

Speaker 2 That's my hope and dream about this. But there's just a lot of unknowns here.

Speaker 4 There's a lot of unknowns. And I think that's the hardest part about anything is she can't, she's not going to be able to make him do anything.
And as long as that's the focus, we're just stuck.

Speaker 2 And nobody's ever been truly deeply shamed into behavior change. No.
Ever.

Speaker 4 Might last for a second.

Speaker 2 And that's not change behavior. That is, I will do what I need to do to get you away away from me.

Speaker 2 In fact, that's a further repellent. So the only thing I've ever seen here is a double down on connection, which is hard when you have no relational capital left, or somebody choosing to say,

Speaker 2 I got to take care of us.

Speaker 1 I got to take care of us. Wow.

Speaker 4 That's a tough situation.

Speaker 1 Very, very, very tough. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Oh, well, we're hoping for you.

Speaker 4 By the way, BetterHelp is a place that we recommend. If you are looking for counseling, you could check out there and try to get some of the help that you need.

Speaker 4 Because I do think in situations like this, it's really important to get like an outsider to kind of just have their opinion, right?

Speaker 4 You get so close to it and you're looking at it and you're so close to the situation, it's hard to see it for all the facets that it has.

Speaker 2 Call our friends at BetterHelp if you got nobody else. I think, I mean,

Speaker 2 if you have somebody else, call our friends a better help, but that's a great place to start. And they can see you within 24, 48 hours and they can get you, get you cracking on getting well.

Speaker 4 Ooh, wee, my goodness gracious. That is the tough stuff.

Speaker 4 Well, in the meantime, I can tell you guys that let's switch gears here a little bit, John, and tell people that time is running out to book their cabin.

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Speaker 4 So if you haven't booked yet, consider this your time to book. It's an amazing cruise.

Speaker 4 I can tell you, I worked in the cruise business for 15 years and Holland America is one of the best lines out there. So don't delay.

Speaker 4 Holland Americans New Stotten Dam ship is where we're going to be cruising. Turks and Caicos, Puerto Rico, St.
Thomas, Bahamas. We're all going to be there.

Speaker 4 There's amazing pools, amazing spas, amazing lounges, pickleball courts. We're going to be living our best life together and celebrating with you because you're debt-free.
Book it today.

Speaker 4 You can go to ramseysolutions.com slash cruise.

Speaker 4 All right, you're listening to the Ramsey Show. Thanks for hanging out with us.
This is a live show about your life, your money.

Speaker 4 If you ever had a question or you're just wondering, you can give us a call. The number is 888-825-5225.

Speaker 4 Christian will pick up the line, screen your call, make sure you're not some kind of a psychopath, and we'll take your call.

Speaker 1 It'll be probably take that call too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we will. It's okay.
Everybody's welcome here.

Speaker 2 If George can work here, we'll probably take your call.

Speaker 4 That is correct. All right.
Jessica is on the line. She is none of the things that we just described.
She is just fine. What's going on, Jessica?

Speaker 3 Well, thank you.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm really excited to talk this through with y'all.

Speaker 3 So we are in baby step one.

Speaker 3 After my gig shift this tonight, I'll have 700, me and my husband.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. But

Speaker 3 you know, it's really exciting.

Speaker 3 But baby step two is getting me a little worried.

Speaker 3 My husband took out student loans, and that was something that was like his domain. So I wasn't aware of how much he owed.
Besides, before the student loans, we owe about $40,000 in various debts.

Speaker 3 But last week he told me that he owes $35,000 for student loans. And I really understood what y'all mean by you can't breathe.

Speaker 3 Wow. It was just, which is, it's fine.
Just I want to know how to proceed because there's nine different loans. Some are subsidized, some are unsubsidized, and there's different payback plans.

Speaker 3 But there's also a disclaimer that the income-driven repayment plans might not be an option. I'm just so confused.
I don't know anything about all this.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just Jay's going to walk you through all this. Can I just tell you to do one thing? It's not a pet peeve of mine, but it's just like a thing that happens.
I just want to free you from it. Okay.

Speaker 2 This is not fine.

Speaker 2 And I think you have a habit of feeling something and then immediately putting a lid over it.

Speaker 2 Because somewhere along the way, it was your job to make sure everybody else was okay in your world. And you're not allowed to be mad at your husband.
You're not allowed to be mad at you. Okay.

Speaker 2 Like I feel it and then it covered up. It's not okay.
This sucks.

Speaker 1 It's scary. Okay.

Speaker 2 And you're allowed to be mad. And you're allowed to be frustrated with your husband for not fully disclosing all this stuff.
You'll probably need to have that conversation.

Speaker 2 But I want you to be able to feel your feelings because that's going to be some of the gas on this fire that's going to get you all out of this mess.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 How long have you been married?

Speaker 3 Five years.

Speaker 4 Okay. And

Speaker 4 are the student loans from before or it kind of sounded like he just took these out?

Speaker 3 no we met in college and I knew that he was taking out loans but he he really didn't know how much and he just kind of signed the paper and you know that's what I did

Speaker 4 signed away so you're just like in shock because you're like I thought we had one amount and it's double what basically what I thought yes that's exactly it yeah oh yeah okay yeah listen that deserves an argument

Speaker 4 I give you permission to fight a little bit about that.

Speaker 4 Anyway,

Speaker 4 listen, let me go back on that because John, you're right. Like these are real things and you have to kind of get it out in the open and like sift through it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, when you say, like, I can't breathe, but it's okay. And it's not okay.
It's not okay. And drop your shoulders there.
You're not a bad wife. You're not an, you're not a bad partner.

Speaker 2 You're not, you're not disrespectful.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 2 man, I wish you had to sign those papers. And here we are.
So we'll solve it. But when you just put a lid on everything, here's the promise.
In counseling, we call it leakage. It will find a way out.

Speaker 2 And usually it's at a real inopportune time. It's at an in-law's house, like after dinner.
It'll come out. So

Speaker 2 you get in the habit habit of saying, no, I'm allowed to feel my feelings.

Speaker 2 I don't get to treat you bad. I don't get to be disrespectful, but I am allowed to feel disgusted.
I'm allowed to feel scared to death. I'm allowed to feel angry.

Speaker 2 And then we're going to be about solving this problem.

Speaker 1 Is that fair?

Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. All right, you're worth all that.
So good.

Speaker 4 All right. So you're on baby step one, got the $700.
Life is good. Listen, you've been given a little bit of a,

Speaker 4 you didn't know that money was there, but it doesn't change the plan and it doesn't change the course of action from here.

Speaker 4 What it does change a little bit is obviously it has the potential to change the timeline here.

Speaker 4 And I think that's really the disappointing part that we're dealing with is you probably thought, oh, we'll be done at X date. And now it's pushed a little further on.

Speaker 4 What is the income between the two of you?

Speaker 3 With my side digs, I do, it's about $6,200 a month.

Speaker 4 Okay. And that's combined with both of you? Yes.
Okay. And right now, have you projected this out? I mean, I know on Every Dollar, there's that really cool

Speaker 4 financial roadmap planner where you can kind of go in and say, okay, here's the, it'll project for you with the numbers that you say, here's the date that you'll be done with baby step one.

Speaker 4 Here's the date you'll be done with baby step two. Have you projected that?

Speaker 3 I'm too scared to look at it.

Speaker 4 Oh no, girlfriend, like that's what gives you hope. You got to see these numbers in real time because then you really have control.

Speaker 4 When you see the numbers, you can, you can look at them and go, that's, I don't like that. And I can change it.

Speaker 4 But if you don't look at it, then you can just go through life la ti da and you land where you land and you end up where you end up.

Speaker 4 And I think that you are the type of people who, once you get your head around the facts of what it is, you'll go, oh,

Speaker 4 that ain't it. Like we're going to put the pedal to the metal on this.
We're going to make more money. And so please, please, please use that calculator.
Use, you know, we also have just a.

Speaker 4 a Ramsey Solutions debt payoff calculator. You can use that.
But knowing the numbers and knowing the truth around the situation is a game changer. That is what puts the game back in your hands.

Speaker 1 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 And then suddenly it's not a monster in the closet anymore. Right now it's a monster in the closet.
You don't know how long it's going to take.

Speaker 4 All you know is you got some bad news and it made you feel a type of way.

Speaker 4 But we can take that and we can use it as ammunition if you do what John said, which is you walk through the emotions around it.

Speaker 4 But then we get out the calculator and we actually find the real numbers and go, okay, this is the dragon that we have to slay. And here's how we have to slay it.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Do you have every dollar?

Speaker 1 I have the free version.

Speaker 4 Okay. So, Christian, we'll pick up, we'll make sure to get you into the premium version, at least for a little while.

Speaker 4 We'll give it to you for free, and then you can decide if you like it and if you want to keep it.

Speaker 4 But that, I'm telling you, I think for you, with the motivation that you need, premium is going to be the thing because it's got the transaction tracking in there that you can do.

Speaker 4 It's got the paycheck planning in there that you can do. It's got the financial roadmap, which is what I said.
That's going to keep you super duper motivated.

Speaker 4 So that in the face of kind of this striking news, you can stay upbeat, you can know what your path is, and you can actually get out of this. Yes.

Speaker 3 Okay. Awesome.
Thank you. I love this for you.

Speaker 2 But I think it's important to call this out. So she mentioned there's $35,000 new dollars and they're broken up into 14 different little loans.

Speaker 2 We're just going to put those loans as though they were credit cards or person. They're just going to go in order of importance, smallest to largest.

Speaker 2 Who cares about the, we're just going to start at the bottom. Yep.
And I actually get excited about loans like that

Speaker 2 because they're going to get a lot of momentum momentum real quick.

Speaker 4 100%, John. I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 4 What John says is exactly right. And if I could add a little piece to that, because she did mention

Speaker 4 some of the government plans like save plan and things like that.

Speaker 4 Hey, I know save plan has been a taboo word around here, but I can tell you, if you are intensely working the baby steps, signing up for something like that can actually be helpful in order to lower your minimum of payments.

Speaker 4 Because with the debt snowball, you pay minimum payments on everything, then you put the extra money on the smallest debt, right? So having lower minimum payments behooves you for the moment.

Speaker 4 So you can put a whole lot on the smallest debt and get it gone fast. So Jessica, in your case, I would do that.

Speaker 4 If you can apply for it and get lower minimums, yes, ma'am, because you're the person who's about business and who's actually going to pay off these loans quickly.

Speaker 4 Now, if you're the lollygagger, John, if you're the one who's just like a free ride, I'm going to take it. Don't do that because those student loans are going to be around forever for you.

Speaker 4 And I hate that I have to even play both sides of that coin.

Speaker 4 But for those of you who thought I was was just saying, Jade said to go to save plan.

Speaker 1 No, I know. I'll tell you all day long.

Speaker 2 If you're going to a save plan or you're going to the repayment plan, whatever, I always suggest people sign up for it.

Speaker 1 Don't rely on it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Sign up for it.
But if it's so that you can go get that Tahoe. That's why that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 Don't do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You're playing yourself.

Speaker 4 Don't go out to eat more.

Speaker 2 No. But if it's going to let you get some more breathing room so you can take that extra cash and pay off more crap faster.

Speaker 1 That's right. All day, every day.
All day, every day.

Speaker 4 So, yeah. For Jessica, I would definitely do that.
And to John's point, when you do have student loans that you're paying off and there's lots of them, sometimes they'll roll several into one payment.

Speaker 4 But if you look closer, they are individual loans with individual account numbers. And so when the time comes, you pay the minimum payment, satisfy that, satisfy the interest on that.

Speaker 4 But when it comes time to make that extra payment, make sure you're calling the payment in because sometimes you can't do it online. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

Speaker 4 But go through and say, okay, I want the extra payment to go on the principle of this individual itty-bitty loan, not on the principle of the entire group.

Speaker 4 Because if you do it like that, you'll never make progress and you'll be out here frustrated, wondering why it's taking so long to pay off your loan.

Speaker 4 So, there's a way to do this, there's a method to that madness. Hey, if you want to finish the show, we got another hour to go, but you have to go to the Ramsey Network app in order to do it.

Speaker 4 But don't worry, all you need to do is go to your app store and just Google Ramsey Network app, and you'll see it.

Speaker 4 And you can log in there, whether you're on Google or whether you're on Android or whether you're on Apple. You can get in where you fit in.
It's absolutely free. We'll see you over there.

Speaker 4 This is the Ramsey Show.