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Speaker 1 episode is filled with some of our best calls and advice, but unless you take what you hear and put it to work in your own life, you'll be stuck with the same money stress in 2026.

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Speaker 2 Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life.

Speaker 2 From the Ramsey Network and the Fair Winds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, host of the Rachel Cruz Show, and my daughter is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 2 John's in Orlando. Hey, John, how are you?

Speaker 3 Hey, Mr. Ramseys.
It's nice to meet you.

Speaker 3 So I've actually struggled to keep steady employment over the past decade. I've been fired several times due to personality and behavioral challenges.

Speaker 3 You know, I've got over 70 grand in federal student loans, considering joining the Navy as an officer, but to pay off debt and to build a career.

Speaker 3 At the same time, I'm considering joining, starting a podcast with my friend, Matt Ben, but I'm unsure what to do.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't be alive today without God and my parents funding me, but at 40 years old, I'd like to be independent.

Speaker 3 At this point in time, no employer will hire me, even low-paying jobs that you have suggested other people do to build a work record. I'm not sure what to do.

Speaker 3 What kind of advice can you give me to help me out?

Speaker 2 How many jobs in 10 years?

Speaker 3 It's actually 11 years, but 14.

Speaker 2 14 jobs in 11 years. You're 40.
So what'd you do before 29?

Speaker 3 Well, I was actually, I spent eight years

Speaker 3 in college because I made a mistake early on in my life.

Speaker 3 I didn't have a plan i didn't really know what i wanted to do i had a a brief window of time where i had good grades but that was only when you know okay so you had

Speaker 2 to go back to the other then thank you i go i'll go back to the other then you had 14 jobs in 11 years so it's not even a year each uh and you said behavior and personality challenges cause you to lose your jobs is that what you said yeah so i have a disability i have a personality disability um and it took me many years to figure that out through different neurological assessments um what is your what is the diagnosis

Speaker 3 uh npd um

Speaker 3 is what i've been told i have um but i was my my mom believes uh i mean when i was i was vaccinated when i was a kid and my body rejected the vaccine and it caused me to have epilepsy when i was younger and add and a few and so how does this manifest itself in the workplace Like you're just a butt?

Speaker 3 So what it's caused me to do is challenge authority to be a difficult employee to work.

Speaker 2 What you describe would be normally, I would think, belligerence.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I guess you could put that in that category.

Speaker 1 And is it episodes, John, when it happens? Like when it occurred, do you, are you aware of it? Like when it's happening or how does that work?

Speaker 1 Because I'm just trying to figure out the tools to put in place for your life going forward to be able to function in society, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, to be able to hold a job.

Speaker 2 Well, hold a relationship of anything.

Speaker 3 I haven't been able to function in society.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the point. And the Navy doesn't do well with people who have trouble with authority.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I realize that.

Speaker 2 That's going to be a nasty, that's going to be a nasty conflict.

Speaker 2 I mean, the whole military thing is authority. You know that.
So

Speaker 2 it's command structure, and you will respect that, even if your commander is an idiot. So,

Speaker 2 wow. Okay.
So are you getting help with this in some way?

Speaker 2 I wish Dr. Deloney was here today because Rachel and I are going, oh no.
But

Speaker 2 yeah, but

Speaker 2 is there a treatment for this where you can become functional?

Speaker 3 Honestly, no.

Speaker 3 There's no cure for it.

Speaker 3 I've proposed an idea to, because according to research, the reason why people have NPD is because of low gray matter in the brain.

Speaker 3 I think that it can be cured with nanobots, that you can inject nanobots in the body and then have them programmed to heal the frontal cortex of the brain.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we just left my page.

Speaker 2 You just left me behind at the airport, dude.

Speaker 3 But no,

Speaker 3 there's no support, really.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 just from a common sense, your older brother talking to you, listening to you, who loves you, just from that, what I'm reaching for is to try to find some way that, because there's not a career, self-employed especially,

Speaker 2 that pays people for misbehaving.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And so I'm trying to find some way that you create a sustainable

Speaker 2 life

Speaker 2 that allows you to be employed, that allows you to be engaged in other relationships, that allows you to do those things. And

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 the problem is not the career issue. It's the symptom.

Speaker 1 Right. So that's what I'm asking you, John.
Are there other tools, whether it's through therapy or whatnot, that when things happen, right?

Speaker 1 And even like you could take anxiety as an example, like neuro, like something has happened chemically in your body when that happens, but there are tools to get you back grounded when it comes to that.

Speaker 1 Is there anything when you feel that rising up in you?

Speaker 1 Has anyone given you any set of tools of awareness? I do this, I do that, to at least be able to,

Speaker 1 with saying like just a nine to five, right? To be able to have any level of function. Has anyone given you any tools at all? Or are you just kind of...

Speaker 2 Persure, any kind of form of apology?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I have been given tools, but one of the things that happens when I go into these jobs is I bring bitterness from previous jobs into it and kind of self-sabotage at the early stage.

Speaker 3 They already have this,

Speaker 3 I don't know how to say this, but they already know because they can see my resume that I haven't kept jobs. They're kind of

Speaker 3 in my mind.

Speaker 2 It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's logical.
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 All right. So, dude, the answer is that this is above Rachel and my pay grade.

Speaker 2 I don't know how to answer your question because the answer to your question is to find some healing

Speaker 2 so that you can hold a job, so that you can hold a quality relationship.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 there's not a career path.

Speaker 2 And self-employed people oftentimes become self-employed because they can't do anything else, but it doesn't keep you from having to struggle with that because your customers are going to experience what your bosses were experiencing.

Speaker 2 And you're not going to have any customers. I mean, if you're my mechanic and you're a but

Speaker 2 when I'm the customer, then you're not my mechanic anymore and you go out of business. So, I mean, you fix my heat and air, but you're a butt.
Well, you're not my heat and air guy anymore. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so,

Speaker 2 you know, if that's how it's meant, if if belligerence is how this is manifesting, which I'm not an expert in your area, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 But I'm just listening to you as a friend and saying, I'm going to be in the therapy realm. I'm going to be talking to Dr.
John Deloney, which I will put you on hold.

Speaker 2 We'll try to make you a caller on his show. Maybe he can actually add something intelligent to this conversation because I can't.
I don't know what to say other than you've got to get

Speaker 2 your ability to cope.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, and we have found people that are successful when they have very obvious limitations whether it's a mental illness a physical illness a disability you know we talk to people on the show and they are you know legally blind but yet they're making 150 000 a year because they figured out something that got them a job and they figured it out so there is a level

Speaker 1 that i don't want john the thing i would not want for you is playing into any level of victimhood no that this is a horrible thing but people do have serious setbacks but they overcome them and we talk to them on the show all the time and so i don't know what that looks like for you.

Speaker 2 Create a predictable environment.

Speaker 1 100%. So, that's why I'm saying, though, is don't fall victim to this

Speaker 1 and make excuses. So, that's where the work of the healing and the proactive, you know, being proactive in that way is going to be your next step.
It has to be, man. But I think it is possible.

Speaker 1 I think there's something that you can do, honestly, John, to find healing and to be a productive member of society.

Speaker 2 I do too. I think there's something other than nanobots.
Hold on, Christian will pick up. We'll get you hooked up with Deloney.

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Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality is my co-host. Marie is with us in San Antonio.
Hi, Marie. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 Hi, hi, hi, Dave. Hi, Rachel.
Thanks for taking my call. Sure.
So I've never heard this

Speaker 4 situation on your show. I've been listening to your show for a long time, but

Speaker 4 is there ever a point

Speaker 4 when

Speaker 4 you don't worry about little bills?

Speaker 4 And so

Speaker 4 my husband is a portfolio manager, and he manages about half a billion dollars. So money is his business.
That's what he knows. When he comes home,

Speaker 4 this will sound like a joke, but it's not. When he comes home, he will start turning off all the lights.

Speaker 4 If the TV's on and I'm not in the room, he's turning off the TV.

Speaker 4 I've been banned from buying avocados because one went bad once. And you said, I never want to see an avocado in this house again.

Speaker 4 But he's not like that with everything.

Speaker 4 But it's just over the top. At night, he'll turn the heat down to 65, and it's freezing, and my nose is cold, and I can almost see my breath.
And

Speaker 4 is that normal?

Speaker 2 It's normal to have thermostat wars in every marriage. The other part's not normal.

Speaker 1 No, Marie.

Speaker 2 No, no, no.

Speaker 4 Just, it's, it's

Speaker 1 in some part, like financially, where are you you guys at?

Speaker 2 He has a million dollars.

Speaker 4 Half our house was bought for in cash. Our cars are bought, you know, they're paid in cash.
They're not used cars. I just got a brand new up to me, a 22 super.

Speaker 1 How did he grow up? What was his family of origin with money?

Speaker 4 Well, it's funny because his father grew up with a lot of money and they had a house staff, but his mother was very frugal and

Speaker 4 you would never know that they ever had anything.

Speaker 4 They were just

Speaker 2 how old is your husband?

Speaker 4 My husband is 64 and I'm 62.

Speaker 2 He's too old to still be making his mom happy.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 his mom passed.

Speaker 2 You missed my point. You missed my point.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 2 a good little boy turns off all the lights and the TV and doesn't buy buy wasteful avocados.

Speaker 2 And he's 64 and he's still living up to her freakish savings techniques. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 4 I just, I don't know how to help him. I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 This is not a money issue.

Speaker 2 This is an emotional and spiritual issue. He's trying to control his environment.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I know I do it too.

Speaker 2 We all want to control the things we can control. That's called being a grown-up.

Speaker 2 but he's doing it to the damage of his relationship, and he's doing it to the level that it's outside the norm of reasonable behavior. Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
And so

Speaker 2 the thing is, you're sweet and kind,

Speaker 2 but you're going to reach the end of this and there's going to be an avocado explosion in your house.

Speaker 4 Well, when I bought one last week and I was stressed.

Speaker 4 I was like, I have to to eat this before he sees it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and here's the deal. I mean, here's the deal.
In Texas, you own half of the assets.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So that includes avocados. You have no reason to be stressed.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this is a control issue. And

Speaker 2 he's not a mean person.

Speaker 2 No. He's not trying to be mean to you.

Speaker 1 No, it's just the scarcity of mentality to the sky.

Speaker 2 He's completely operates on the glasses half empty.

Speaker 1 And it's complete fear.

Speaker 2 Well, he's still trying to please his mother.

Speaker 1 Of whatever it is, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the motivation in it is very fascinating. And that's the route I'd want to get to with him.
Because, Marie, he's not living in freedom at all. Could you imagine being him?

Speaker 1 Could you imagine walking into a room and for decades feeling this responsibility to turn off every light or, God forbid, something goes bad in the fridge?

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 What if he was in a situation where he couldn't? Because it wasn't legal for him to turn off other people's lights. You know what I mean? It's freaking out.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 I mean, it's like, it's got to be distressing. Yes.
So anyway, this is him.

Speaker 1 And this is an interesting concept. When we talk from a spiritual element, Marie, you know, we always, scripture is very clear that money, it can be an idol so easily.

Speaker 1 And a lot of people see money as an idol when it comes to us worshiping stuff and nice cars. But this is, this is idolatry in a sense.
It has, he has become obsessed.

Speaker 1 obsessed with it to the point that his actions

Speaker 1 are not making sense. And so there is a big component here for him.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So I, you know, honestly, I think as his wife, you just sit down and say, honey,

Speaker 2 number one, I'm not living like this anymore. You're making my life miserable.
You're weird. Number two.
They do tell him that. I know.

Speaker 2 Number two, I think we need to sit down with a marriage counselor and someone who can talk to you about your obsession with these minor little things that don't even affect our lives.

Speaker 2 You're freakish and you're driving me nuts. Yeah.
And I love you. Yeah.
But he needs help. You're not mean, but you need to talk to somebody about this

Speaker 2 or you just need to stop it, your choice. But I think you probably ought to sit down and figure out why it is you're doing this.
We're multi-millionaires. I can afford a freaking avocado.

Speaker 2 I can throw avocados at the dog as a ball if I want, and we're not going to go broke. You're fine.
I can buy all the avocados and dance in them in the front yard, and we're not going to go broke.

Speaker 2 You know, it's really ridiculous, you know, the numbers on this. And so, and, you know, Sharon and I have had to do this together as we've gone from

Speaker 2 broke when we got married to making a lot of money to going broke to starting over after the scars of going broke and

Speaker 2 you know we have to sit down and say okay

Speaker 2 we can enjoy this amount of money we can give this amount of money we have to almost like say it out loud like if we if we give a hundred thousand dollars to this charity this ministry our life doesn't change it's okay what's interesting it's okay Yeah.

Speaker 2 You can buy an avocado. And in this

Speaker 1 scenario, because when it happens relationally in a marriage, too, I think the hard thing for you is, and something I feel like we've all learned through life, you can't change people.

Speaker 1 Like, you are not going to be able to say the right thing to him where the light goes on and he, or no, the light will go off, I guess.

Speaker 1 Tell me once the light's off. But it's just the idea of like, you're not going to, you're not going to fix him.

Speaker 1 He has to have the ability.

Speaker 1 That was good. He has to have the ability to change himself.
Okay.

Speaker 1 But you, Marie, can't function in this codependence of trying to make him happy you will never make him happy you will never be turning

Speaker 1 so you need i won't i won't

Speaker 1 live in a cave collect lint only come out on triple coupon thursday marie you need freedom in yourself and in your marriage for you because regardless of how he changes you have to break that codependence that you're that i'm i'm nervous about the avocado you have to you have to let that go because that's you that that's what you can control your part you can't control if he's going to change or not but for you yeah live live in reality, Marie.

Speaker 1 And if it pisses him off, it pisses him off.

Speaker 2 Here's the thing. He's not reality.
He's not a mean person. He doesn't see this as anger, does he?

Speaker 4 No, no, he doesn't.

Speaker 2 He's a kind man.

Speaker 1 But he's just controlling.

Speaker 2 He's very controlling.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 there's a lot of fear. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 He's very generous with other things, with a lot of things. He's very generous.

Speaker 4 We have a great life. It's wonderful.

Speaker 1 It's just these habits from this, like, these examples.

Speaker 2 Just no lights are off a colour.

Speaker 4 And if I go to Sonic and it's not happy hour, I get an ear full because why didn't I wait 30 minutes?

Speaker 1 That's his problem.

Speaker 4 Get my route 44.

Speaker 2 Cherry linema. Talk to the hand.

Speaker 2 Talk to the linemaid. Yep.
Linema will talk to you about this. I'm not talking to you about this.

Speaker 1 $100 bill and be like, here's all the complaints for the next like

Speaker 1 six months. What your complaints are going to add up to is this $100 bill.
So just take it and i don't want to hear complaining i'm kidding don't do that but that's basically what it adds up to

Speaker 2 yeah it's there's okay and i honestly somehow sometimes sitting down with a good counselor two sessions even they'll be able to hold up a mirror back to him and he'll see himself

Speaker 2 and when he does he'll be a little bit horrified because this is not a bad person

Speaker 2 you know i really don't believe he's mean i really don't i i really don't think he's angry at you and you know, earful, but that's just fear-based.

Speaker 2 And so, but I think, you know, I would invest in two marriage counseling sessions and, you know, bring this up and y'all talk it through and see what the counselor looks at him and goes, dude, you're weird.

Speaker 1 That counselor is going to pull a string and he may be in there.

Speaker 2 What the counselor is going to do? What the looney says. He's going to turn on all the lights.

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh. You can't make this up.
This is the Ramsey Show.

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Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.

Speaker 2 Selling a house the Ramsey Way makes homeownership a blessing instead of a curse.

Speaker 2 Buying a house the Ramsey Way makes home ownership a blessing rather than a curse. It is tough out there right now in the real estate market.
It is tough to buy. It's an interesting time.

Speaker 2 Prices continue to go up, and there is a shortage of houses. There's an inventory shortage.
And so that's why prices continue to go up.

Speaker 2 And yet

Speaker 2 there's people buying, in other words, it's happening. More people buying than selling.

Speaker 2 So if you're a seller in a weird market like this, you need someone representing you that's going to help you maximize the asset and not think crazy about what you're going to pull off here.

Speaker 2 If you're a buyer in this market, you need someone to talk sanity into you if you get in one of these bidding wars.

Speaker 2 And that's a high-end, high-octane, high-producing real estate agent that knows their stuff. And that's the only ones that are Ramsey trusted.
I got my real estate license in 1978.

Speaker 2 And so I know what a real estate agent looks like that is a high-performing professional. And I know one looks like what I call a donut eater.

Speaker 2 They sit around and eat donuts and talk about real estate. But there's a difference.
So

Speaker 2 who's going to sell your most expensive asset?

Speaker 2 Your aunt who just got her license three weeks ago and she's sweet? Or somebody that sold 150 houses last year? Nick say on the ants say. I'm just saying, okay? No way.
Don't do this. All right.

Speaker 2 Go to ramseysolutions.com slash agent and get a Ramsey trusted real estate agent to help you with this. You'll be glad you did.
Alan's with us in Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Alan.

Speaker 2 Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 Hey, how are you, man? Thank you so much for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 4 got an upside-down loan in a car that kind of ran into my car loan now

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 4 sitting down trying to

Speaker 4 look at everything that we panned here in Arizona. Of course, everything is going up.

Speaker 4 That's like one of our biggest

Speaker 4 bills that we got. The car note is like $695 with like 6.9

Speaker 4 interest rate on it. We're just trying to figure out.
I don't want to do a repo.

Speaker 4 I just need to try to get that payment down somehow, some way.

Speaker 2 What do you owe on the payment?

Speaker 4 $32,000. Okay.

Speaker 2 Have you looked up what it's worth on private sale on Kelly Blue Book?

Speaker 4 Yeah, we even took it to like Carvana.

Speaker 2 Now, Carvana's going to pay you wholesale. They're going to pay you wholesale.
Yes.

Speaker 4 Yeah, Carbax. I mean, they told her that it was worth $22,000.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 That means it's worth $27.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 2 Not because CarMax is trying to rip you off. CarMax is in the business of buying cars at wholesale and selling them at retail.
That's how they make a living.

Speaker 2 And so they never, why would they pay someone retail for a car? They sell cars for retail.

Speaker 2 And so if they're willing to buy it from you for $22,000, you can rest assured it's worth $27, which leaves you $5,000 in the hole. How stinky is your credit?

Speaker 4 that's it's bad it's like 515 and that's that's why I can't refinance who's the uh who's the car loan with

Speaker 4 it's with Toyota Finance

Speaker 4 it's a 22 Toyota Cameron

Speaker 4 okay so somebody told me about subleasing it to somebody

Speaker 2 no no somebody's a fool no no no no no no okay no no no okay and why well because if they don't pay it you still owe it and they won't pay it. Yeah, you're

Speaker 1 taking the risk on somebody else.

Speaker 2 Who buys a car on sublease? Somebody can't buy a car any other way because they're too screwed up.

Speaker 2 And screwed up people that are so screwed up they can't buy a car any other way ain't gonna pay your sublease and then you're gonna get screwed again. You've been screwed enough on this car.

Speaker 2 We need to stop it. Okay.

Speaker 2 So, uh,

Speaker 2 wow, what do you make? What's your household income?

Speaker 4 Um, so I make 50 myself. Uh, my wife, she's a hairdresser, but she recently just got a job at a call center.
She makes $18,000 an hour.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 How much other debt have you guys got?

Speaker 4 So when I look at everything with my kidney transplant and all that type of stuff, my credit alone,

Speaker 4 I owe like $17,000 right now.

Speaker 2 Your kidney transplant?

Speaker 1 Is that like medical bills?

Speaker 4 Medical bills, yes.

Speaker 2 You had a kidney transplant.

Speaker 4 Yes, sir. Kidney Kidney and pancreas transplant three years ago, four years ago.

Speaker 2 Wow. How you doing?

Speaker 4 I'm doing good. God is good.

Speaker 4 They call me a miracle because they say a lot of people don't get calls for a kidney transplant.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm thinking after you've been through that, a car payment ain't no step, right?

Speaker 2 Wow. Yep.
Man, that's something else, Alan. Okay, so here's the answer to your question.
Here's what I'm fishing after, all right? The answer to your question is we need to sell the car.

Speaker 2 In order to sell the car for $27,000, we need $5,000 to put with it to be able to pay the car off, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, okay. And that gets rid of the whole stinking problem.
And then we go save up and get $1,000 Hoopty until we can get some money saved to move up out of the land of Hoopty.

Speaker 2 But right now, I mean, because dad gum, man, what you're paying a month, you could save some serious money towards a car. 10 months of your car payment to buy a $7,000 car, man.

Speaker 2 Jeez. Right?

Speaker 4 Yes, sir. Wow.

Speaker 2 So that's the world you're living in. So we've got to get rid of this camera.

Speaker 1 Do you have any money saved, Alan? Anything?

Speaker 4 So there was another question of mine, but they only said I had to ask one.

Speaker 4 That's a very concern of mine because I got children.

Speaker 4 I get depressed about it.

Speaker 4 I'm 42 years old, and me and my wife, we have no savings. We live in Arizona in a two-bedroom condo, and it's $1,800 a month.
And we just, we don't know what to do.

Speaker 4 It's just like we don't know how to

Speaker 4 go about it, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it does. I've been right where you are, man.
It's not fun. I haven't been with

Speaker 2 the pancreas kidney thing, but oh my gosh, I've been with the rest of it. I've been where you are.
I know what it feels like to be scared.

Speaker 4 I was still working full-time doing that, too.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 4 it was such a journey. And so,

Speaker 4 you know, by the time my bills are paid and everything like that, it's kind of holly enough to save anything. So that's okay.

Speaker 2 So here's the deal.

Speaker 2 Let's just close our eyes for a second. All right.

Speaker 2 If

Speaker 2 you had $25,000,

Speaker 2 your whole life would be different. You'd be 100% debt-free and out of this car.

Speaker 2 You'd have paid off all the medical bills and be out of this car and be selling it if you had $25,000.

Speaker 2 Right? I would, yep. Right.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 $1,000 a month

Speaker 2 is $25,000 in two years.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 $1,000 a month extra jobs,

Speaker 2 $1,500 a month extra jobs, get you out in 18 months.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I need you to save up $5,000 and sell the stupid Camry as soon as possible and then just continue cracking that whip on that $17,000 from then on and let's be done done with this thing and get you a cheapo, cheapo car.

Speaker 2 I don't want you to drive a cheapo car the rest of your life. I want you to get rid of this thing that's killing you.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And it's not with the CarMax or Carvana. It's selling it to an individual for 27, not for 22.

Speaker 2 But you got to have the money to cover the difference because you can't get the title to give to the buyer if you don't pay off the bank.

Speaker 2 Toyota's got your title.

Speaker 1 So the moral of the story, Alan, I think, you know, the conclusion is what's going to help get you guys out the fastest is raising your income.

Speaker 1 And if you can do something evenings and map it out too, because this can feel always really overwhelming, but just to say, okay, on average, if I work an extra three hours a night for five nights a week, you know, what is that going to equal in money?

Speaker 1 If that's driving Uber, if that's Instacart, whatever it is, you know, find some side hustle stuff and kind of map it out and just say, okay, how much do I have to work for us to get to a goal of $1,000?

Speaker 1 And then, and then timeline that out, just like what Dave did earlier. And then say, what if I did $1,500 a month, right? Like start running those numbers and actually write them down.

Speaker 1 You and your wife sit down. And that, and your $50,000 doesn't even count her salary.
So maybe there's a challenge for you guys lifestyle wise to take her income and throw it. Yep, all of that.

Speaker 2 Throw everything at this. Throw everything at it.

Speaker 1 We're cheering for you, Alan.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so you hang on. We're going to put you through Financial Peace University.
And then I want you to call us back as you're you're walking through this if you've got other questions.

Speaker 2 You get some money piled up and you don't know exactly what to do, holler. We'll help you, man.

Speaker 2 We've been scared too. We know what it's like.
This is the Ramsey Show.

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Speaker 1 Today's question comes from Alexandria in Texas. I'm currently going through a divorce and recently found out that my husband has taken out credit cards in our children's name.

Speaker 1 He racked up a significant amount of debt and emptied his retirement account to pay it off.

Speaker 1 He keeps telling me it's not possible to pull credit reports on our kids, but I don't believe that that's true because now he wants me to sign paperwork that absolves him from any wrongdoing regarding our kids.

Speaker 2 No good.

Speaker 4 Not happening.

Speaker 2 Your husband is scum.

Speaker 2 Anybody that would

Speaker 2 screw his own kids over is scum. I mean, who takes out, that's just absolutely the, I mean, to start with, identity theft is illegal.

Speaker 2 It's criminal fraud. Okay.
So your husband is a criminal. Oh, and who'd he steal from? His children.
What a jerk.

Speaker 2 No, I am not signing any paperwork except paperwork puts him in jail.

Speaker 2 That's the paperwork we're signing on him. So, no, go talk to your lawyer, darling,

Speaker 2 and tell your lawyer to send him back a little note that says LO, LO, LO, LO, LO, LO, LO, LO. LOL.
You've got to be freaking kidding me.

Speaker 1 You're saying, oh, L, O L, O, L.

Speaker 2 Yeah, whatever. Oh, L O L.
I know, but it's, it's, laugh out loud, you fool. Okay, so you have got to be kidding me.
Oh.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you can freeze your kids. Yes, you can.

Speaker 2 You can pull kids' credit reports and you can freeze them. We know this because we did it.

Speaker 2 When they first started allowing freezing, Rachel was still a minor. And all of our children entered their adult life with a frozen credit report.
Nothing had ever been on it.

Speaker 2 Nothing could get on it.

Speaker 1 Well, and you do it too to protect them from ID theft, just in general, like with their internet. You know, the internet and scams.

Speaker 2 You need to freeze it because their father is scum. Okay, well, that's fine.

Speaker 2 And that will keep him from, if they actually check the credit before they issue the credit card, they won't issue it if it's frozen. Next time he tries to do this because there will be a next time.

Speaker 2 This guy is a serious con artist.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. Man.

Speaker 2 Alexandria. Okay, this is interesting.
Listen to the verbiage. He keeps telling me it's not possible to put credit reports on our kids, but I don't believe that's true.

Speaker 2 So here's, let me help you with this. Anything this guy says is not true.
If his mouth is moving, he's lying. This is a guy who would steal his own children's identity for his own personal benefit.
So

Speaker 2 nothing that comes out of his mouth can be trusted. So the only thing that can be trusted are the actual facts and the behavior, not the verbal wishes.

Speaker 2 So, no, you can pull credit reports on your kids. You can freeze credit reports on your kids.
I have done it.

Speaker 1 And I would to make sure, I mean, if he says he paid it off, who knows? You know, so I would pull those credit reports to see what the status is for you.

Speaker 2 I would file a criminal on him. I'd have the police, I'd set him up and say, hey, somebody

Speaker 2 stole my kids' identity. Oh, it was him.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And then let him figure that one out.

Speaker 2 Definitely. So, because I don't want this guy near them again.
This is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Carlo is in Miami. Hey, Carlo, what's up?

Speaker 6 Hi, I hope all are you doing well?

Speaker 2 We are. How can we help?

Speaker 6 I wanted to ask your opinion.

Speaker 6 My mom, in February, late February, she passed away from her 10-year cancer battle. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 6 I appreciate it.

Speaker 6 And in her passing,

Speaker 6 big family

Speaker 6 squabbles with the scraps left behind. Long story short, I have $110,000 sitting in my bank account.

Speaker 6 My wife and I tomorrow are going to go get a biopsy for her. They think she possibly might have cancer.

Speaker 6 And her father that lives with us,

Speaker 6 his cancer came back, and we're dealing with that.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. So,

Speaker 6 yeah, it's been a rough 2025, but

Speaker 6 we're still blessed to be here and making decisions and trying to make things better. So,

Speaker 2 my role.

Speaker 2 I assume you and your wife have health insurance.

Speaker 4 Yes, sir. Yes.

Speaker 2 She works in the medical field. Does her father have health insurance?

Speaker 4 Yes, sir.

Speaker 2 Okay. All right.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 my biggest dilemma is this. I've always been a saver.

Speaker 6 I believe on baby step number five, if not six. We're doing rather well.
We just turned 40 this year.

Speaker 6 And I'm trying to balance

Speaker 6 keeping funds in the reserve for if things go south and living life now.

Speaker 6 We had a hard time with that with my mother. You know, traveling with her at the end was very difficult, but we made it happen and we made our memories.
So.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, what an amazing amount of challenges.

Speaker 2 I would just throw that in a high-yield savings account for six months.

Speaker 2 Because in six months, you're going to have a lot more information on both of these situations.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 How expensive a fight have we got? How long a fight have we got? And how much are we going to look at alternative solutions med that um our insurance won't cover

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 and that would be true in either case but certainly true in your wife's case right um and then with her dad does he have money and how much is he gonna

Speaker 2 you know above above

Speaker 2 his out of pocket after insurance and then is he gonna try or do anything other than that that is gonna be expensive okay

Speaker 6 Well, he doesn't have much. He lives with us.
We have in-laws quarters.

Speaker 6 And he he has Medicare and Medicaid. So most of all of his treatments have been covered from that.

Speaker 6 It's just, you know, I want to do right by him. He's been a workhorse, much like my mother, his whole life working.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I don't think you're going to have $100,000 of medical bills with him.

Speaker 6 No, no, no, no, absolutely not. Okay.
Absolutely not. But, you know, I don't know what the future holds.

Speaker 6 So, you know,

Speaker 6 I have the monies right now in a Schwab account. I could put that in a high-yield savings.

Speaker 2 I just put it in high-yield savings

Speaker 2 and just forget it's there. It's just sitting there.
And then, as soon as you actually can quantify these situations a little bit in terms of

Speaker 2 how long are we going to be in this fight, and

Speaker 2 what's the actual out-of-pocket expense from these two different fights,

Speaker 2 then that tells you if you can invest and begin to do some other things with some of that money.

Speaker 2 Let's pretend that it's a minor issue with your wife, okay,

Speaker 2 and it's nothing. We're done.
Six months from now, it's way in the rearview mirror. The Bobsy was benign, no problems, no issue.

Speaker 2 We're done, okay? So we had a few hundred dollars in deductibles or whatever, some co-pays, we're done. Then you don't have to worry about this $100K for that purpose.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to leave it around for vague worries, but I'm going to leave it around for specific worries.

Speaker 6 Well, one of the reasons why I've left it there in that account also is she's attempting to do a career change, which is drastically going to change her income.

Speaker 6 She currently makes about $100,000 a year,

Speaker 6 and her career change could drop us about $30,000 a year. So it's a pretty big shortfall.

Speaker 2 Can you not live on what you make?

Speaker 6 Well, in Miami, it's a little...

Speaker 2 Can you not live on what you make with her career change?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 If you can't, she doesn't need to do the career change.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I mean, it is a luxury and she wants to do it to be home more.

Speaker 2 Luxury is fine, but if you can't live on it, you can't do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because if you've got to feed your household $30,000 a year in three years, this money's gone and then you're screwed. You got a burn rate on this, man.

Speaker 2 So you don't create sustainability from savings.

Speaker 2 So that's a completely different subject than you called with. But yeah,

Speaker 2 you've got to create a budget that you you guys can live on. So, if you can afford to live on without touching this money, her career change, she can do it.

Speaker 2 If you can't, she can't do it.

Speaker 1 Or you guys change lifestyle. You got to change something.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but this hundred thousand is not going to save you on that. Not even going to come close.

Speaker 2 So, no, that won't work. But, but having it set aside to make sure you turn the corner on some cancer diagnosis until you turn the corner, I'd let it sit there.

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fair Winds Credit Union Studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz, number one best-selling author.
Ramsey personality, my daughter is my co-host today.

Speaker 2 Nicole is in Mississippi. Hi, Nicole.
How are you?

Speaker 4 Hi, Dave. How are you?

Speaker 2 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 4 So I'm having a bit of a dilemma. Excuse me.
I'm a little nervous.

Speaker 2 It's okay.

Speaker 4 My fiancé and I, we get married next week on Friday.

Speaker 2 Oh, congratulations.

Speaker 2 Coming up.

Speaker 4 Yes, very soon. We are excited about that.
But I am still in the mindset of my debt, his debt sort of thing.

Speaker 4 My dilemma is

Speaker 4 I'm having a dilemma with using my $800. I'm on baby step one to throw at my credit card that I am behind on.
And my minimum is half of my take-home pay. So it's half of what I make in a month.

Speaker 4 That's what my minimum is.

Speaker 2 And that is the only thing.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, what is your minimum?

Speaker 4 That's $2,734.

Speaker 2 What do you owe on this credit card?

Speaker 4 $13,000.

Speaker 2 And you have a $2,700 payment on $13,000?

Speaker 4 Yes, I fell behind for a few months and then

Speaker 4 it's just interest added on and it's becoming unbearable.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to be able to. That's not the normal minimum payment.
It's all the back payments.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 It's normally around $300,000 or $400. Ah, that sounds more like it.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 So, um, and you bring home, what, five thousand, six thousand a month?

Speaker 4 About five $5,000.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes.
And you're getting married and he has how much debt?

Speaker 4 He has about $40,000.

Speaker 2 And you only have $13,000? Or you have a car and everything else or what?

Speaker 4 So together, we have about $79,000 worth of debt.

Speaker 2 Okay, which means you have another 20-something other than this 13?

Speaker 2 Yes. On what?

Speaker 4 It's personal loans.

Speaker 4 I owe a family member. It's a various of other things.

Speaker 2 Okay. And so your household income is about 80, right? Your income, and what's his?

Speaker 4 So my income is about, like I said, that's $5,000, and his is about the same a month as well.

Speaker 2 Your take-home pay, yeah, okay. Yes.

Speaker 2 All right. So that's $120,000 take-home pay, and so you're probably making $150,000 or so.
Okay.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 And we need to pay off 80 overall. So

Speaker 2 really,

Speaker 2 you don't really have a minimum payment of $2,700. You have

Speaker 2 a single payment of $2,700 to get current.

Speaker 2 Okay. Right? Because the next month it won't be $2,700.
It'd be $300.

Speaker 4 Well, if I don't pay on it, if I don't get caught up on it.

Speaker 2 You know, if you pay $2,700, the next month your payment would be $300. Yes, that's correct.
That's what I'm saying. Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 what I would do is just call a credit card company and ask them to roll that in and reset your payment.

Speaker 4 Well, I called them. I don't have a problem saying their names, capital one.
I called them and they said that there's nothing that they can do.

Speaker 2 And then there's nothing I can do. You're not going to get paid.

Speaker 2 How's that? You get nothing, honey, if you don't work with me because I got no money. I can't pay you $2,700.

Speaker 2 I can pay you $300. If you want to reset the payment, payment, that's fine.
Probably I need to talk to your supervisor because apparently your two brain cells aren't rubbing together.

Speaker 2 This is how you talk to Capital One.

Speaker 2 What's in your wallet?

Speaker 2 Stupid. You know, I mean, come on.
Of course they can roll that in. They do it every day, all day long.
But you got some junior bird man on the phone up there in a cubicle, right?

Speaker 2 And so you got to nail them. That's what you have to do.

Speaker 2 And then catch them up anyway, because you've got to get the whole stupid thing paid off.

Speaker 2 And remember how they treated you the next time you get ready to whip out that card or do any business with this company.

Speaker 4 Oh, no, I'm done.

Speaker 2 Yeah, cut the stupid thing up and let them know that we're done. We're breaking up here.

Speaker 2 You aren't all you were cut out to be. I don't care which particular movie star gives me financial advice on your stupid commercials.
Oh, God.

Speaker 4 It would hurt me to close it and

Speaker 2 later. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 Doesn't matter whether you close it or not, you still got exactly the same problem.

Speaker 2 That's true.

Speaker 2 So, you know, here's what you can do. I just call and mess with them and just, you know, be

Speaker 2 start out pleasure.

Speaker 1 You're nice, Nicole. You got to kind of

Speaker 1 hype up your skills.

Speaker 2 Start out pleasant and then end up nasty before you get off.

Speaker 2 Get ready to dial the nasty up pretty quick as you're on the phone if their brains aren't working because sometimes apparently they aren't.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, now then the trick is it doesn't matter because in the end of just a few months, you're going to have a zero balance on this because you're going to get paid off.

Speaker 2 Because you make $120,000 after you get married and y'all need to clean this $80,000 up fast.

Speaker 2 And one of the first orders of business is this credit card because it's probably one of the smallest debts you all have.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 Yes. So we're going to list that in the debt snowball, smallest to largest, and I'm going to pound their face in.

Speaker 2 And it's going to sound like $2,000 a month or $3,000 a month, regardless of what their minimum payment is. Your minimum payment is I want you morons out of my life forever.

Speaker 2 Okay? And

Speaker 2 I'm teaching you to be a little bit angry about this because that's a good thing. That'll push you through this and cause you to just pound their face in with the math as you're doing your budget.

Speaker 2 You're going to take that capital one, take that capital one, take that capital one.

Speaker 2 30 years ago, 35 years ago, American Express called Sharon and asked her why she would stay with a man that wouldn't pay his bills.

Speaker 2 And I'm still pissed.

Speaker 2 35 years later, I'm still pissed. I would still find that guy if I could find him.
Oh, my God. You know, because she called me crying at work, like, I'm thinking the same thing.
Right.

Speaker 2 And so, oh my God, these guys, they're just, they're just ridiculous companies.

Speaker 1 And, Nicole, for you and your husband, I mean, make this.

Speaker 1 a year, the first year of marriage. It's a crusade.
And you guys are working extra at night. Like, I mean, you're just, you're high-fiving in the middle of the night because you don't see each other.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, make it really, be done with it. Like, get really, really aggressive with this.
And then it's done forever. And then for the rest of your marriage, you guys have no debt.

Speaker 1 You have your whole income, no stress. It's a beautiful thing.
And so the more intense you guys can be in this first year.

Speaker 1 And if you guys want kids later, even before the kids, like this is, this is the time to do it.

Speaker 2 So if you don't pay them $2,700 and you pay them $2,100 because they're first thing on your debt snowball and that's all you squeeze out of the first month's budget. Or a thousand, whatever.

Speaker 2 Or you pay them a thousand. Whatever you pay them.
I don't care. Then the next month you pay them a bunch more, and the next month you pay them a bunch more.

Speaker 2 I don't really care what they think, it's irrelevant. Just pounding it up.

Speaker 1 Well, what sucks is the interest, right? You get 26% on this amount. You know,

Speaker 2 it's on the whole thing, anyway. I know.

Speaker 2 It's on the whole $13,000. Yeah, that's true.
Period. It doesn't matter.
The interest is the interest until you get it paid off.

Speaker 2 Yeah, get it knocked out. What's in your wallet? God, money now, because I don't have you people in my life.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, man. I tell you what, I spent the first part of my career doing a dumb thing.

Speaker 2 I would bring in people we were coaching and I would call and negotiate with the credit card companies and set payment plans for the people we were coaching.

Speaker 2 And it taught me to hate credit card companies because they're so moronic. And I'm still, it still rings in my brain.
And just that I, because I just know the conversation she had.

Speaker 2 It just pisses me off still.

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Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Open phones at 888, 825-5225.
Peter is in Toronto, Ontario. Hi, Peter.
How are you?

Speaker 4 Hi, good. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Good. How can I help?

Speaker 4 So my question is, I recently inherited some money from my father who passed away. And it's enough money to pay off the mortgage on the house.

Speaker 4 And my question is whether I should do that or invest the money in

Speaker 4 investments like

Speaker 4 in Canada, it's not an IRA, it's an RRSP.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 And, you know, things like that. And we do have, I have two children.
I'm married.

Speaker 4 I'm 60. My wife is 55.
We have 11-year-old twins. And so

Speaker 4 we do have a college account for them. We have

Speaker 4 an investment fund for them as well.

Speaker 4 So there's only enough money to either pay off the mortgage or not.

Speaker 4 The wrinkle in the question is,

Speaker 4 to be blunt,

Speaker 4 my wife is a compulsive shopper. So we've been married 16 years, and we've gone to counseling on this issue a number of times.
And,

Speaker 4 you know she promises to change and to stop and it it doesn't change.

Speaker 4 My wife's parents are not wealthy but they were you know comfortably middle class. They were very wise with their money.
So

Speaker 4 when we got married they actually bought the house as a gift for us that we live in. It's in my wife's name alone.

Speaker 4 I didn't realize how much credit card debt she had wrapped up,

Speaker 4 and it was in the hundreds of thousands.

Speaker 4 So we ended up having to get a mortgage on the house to pay off the credit card debt.

Speaker 4 And that mortgage is in both of our names.

Speaker 4 We're paying right now, it's an adjustable rate mortgage. We're at 8.34%.

Speaker 4 The bank is saying that they're going to raise the rate soon.

Speaker 4 You know, like money-wise, it is kind of paycheck to paycheck. So paying off the debt on the mortgage.

Speaker 2 So let me get this straight. If you take your inheritance from your father and pay off the mortgage from your wife's compulsive spending in a house that's in her name.

Speaker 4 Yes, but the mortgage is in both of our names.

Speaker 2 I know, but now the house is free and clear, and it's not in your name.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 That doesn't end well.

Speaker 4 I'm not worried about that.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 a few reasons. One, our marriage is strong.

Speaker 2 When?

Speaker 2 When was your marriage strong? Your wife is a compulsive shopper, runs up $100,000.

Speaker 2 How do you call that a strong marriage?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, no, I'm not paying off someone else's house who has an addiction.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How easy is it to get your name on the deed? I'm just curious. That doesn't fix her issues, but I'm just from an asset perspective.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 4 she

Speaker 4 could,

Speaker 4 you know, with her permission, add my name to the deed.

Speaker 4 I am not,

Speaker 4 I'm not the kind of person who

Speaker 4 fights over money. And I

Speaker 2 wasn't asking you to fight over money. I was asking you to be wise.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 4 I love her parents very, very much. And by the way, her parents are actually.

Speaker 2 That has nothing to do with it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, I would feel, you know, they

Speaker 1 are married. Okay.
So if you're going to share in assets and share paying off her debt, you have just of a right to have your name on the assets of

Speaker 2 your marriage.

Speaker 2 You're not being greedy in that sense. Unloving act towards her.
No. By the way, we're paying off her debt.

Speaker 2 It wasn't your debt. She ran it up.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 I mean, her argument would be that it was for necessities for the house. The thing is, she overbuys.
So, you know, like children's clothing.

Speaker 2 Our kids had

Speaker 2 $10,000.

Speaker 4 Yeah, dozens and dozens of shirts and pants and, you know, know,

Speaker 4 stuff like that.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 If we're talking 10 grand, we can probably nitpick if it was right or wrong. But 100 grand, I mean, that's, that's an obvious, crazy number.
I mean, that's, that's wild.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's wild.
Oh, and by the way, it was

Speaker 2 under the cloak of darkness. You didn't know it happened.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was hidden. So, Peter, I want to go back to the city.

Speaker 4 I didn't realize. Yeah, I didn't realize, like, I saw stuff coming in, but I, I, like, I always,

Speaker 2 do you guys, um, besides,

Speaker 1 okay, besides that, um,

Speaker 1 that card specifically, or that whole $100,000 in general, do you guys talk about money? Or do you all have a budget together?

Speaker 1 Like, do you, do you kind of, do you know what's going on, or does she just handle the money? How does it work in your marriage?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 she has always handled the money. Okay.

Speaker 4 And before our marriage, I never had credit card debt. You know, like once in my life when I was very young in my 20s, I paid for that.

Speaker 1 Do you have access, Peter, to your accounts? Like, do you check in on the accounts and kind of have a pulse of what's going on at all?

Speaker 4 No, I do.

Speaker 4 I'm going to, now that our kids are a bit, when the kids were young, like, we were barely getting any sleep. And,

Speaker 4 you know, with both of us working full-time,

Speaker 4 we were exhausted. But now that the kids are more self-sufficient,

Speaker 4 I feel like I have the time now that I can share.

Speaker 1 Okay, because that's what I would, that's my encouragement to you, because we find this so often that one spouse in the marriage takes the weight of the money.

Speaker 1 They're the ones that pay everything, know everything, do everything. And to a degree, that spouse has so much pressure and responsibility.
It's very isolating. And that's been your wife.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm not justifying at all her stuff of 100 grand of going into credit card debt and you not knowing all of it, but also you didn't know because you don't know what's going on. So, Peter, I

Speaker 1 need to, you need to step up in this and sit down and be a team together. And you're a very kind person.

Speaker 1 But when you said, I'm not the kind of person that fights with money, these are the fights you need to have because your marriage needs a level of unity and a level of agreement that

Speaker 1 is so deep that you guys are on such a level of vulnerability and honesty that it may come up. There may be some fights and that's okay.
Conflict is okay.

Speaker 1 And this is an area of your marriage you need to be fighting about, Peter, and not being irrational and angry and hurtful. But man,

Speaker 1 you need to step into this.

Speaker 2 Yes, Peter.

Speaker 1 You really, I mean, she may feel very alone in it and she acts out, you know, for whatever reason in this way. But just, I'm just saying, you need to step in.

Speaker 1 And I would say that to any caller when it comes to marriage. You guys need to be more of a team.

Speaker 1 And that's going to be a, that's the, that's the exact reason you want to push into this because it's going to create a better marriage. It really will.

Speaker 1 It's going to not be fun at first because you're going to be, you guys are going to be maybe, you know, back and forth with stuff, but that's what creates a level of intimacy because you're doing it together.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 enablers, people who psychologists or therapists label as an enabler, as I've worked with them over the years, they're the nicest, sweetest people.

Speaker 2 They don't want to cause a ripple. They don't want conflict.
They want everybody to be happy.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the irony is that it's the most hurtful thing that you can do.

Speaker 2 to not cause the conflict because the conflict is where healing comes from. And again, not a raging, angry conflict, but a conflict based on strength and wisdom.

Speaker 2 And so what you're thinking about doing is just trying to hide this lump under the rug again

Speaker 2 by paying off the mortgage, leaving it in her name, which is absolutely ridiculous, dude. That's just nuts, okay?

Speaker 2 With what you've described here. And you think then it's all going to be okay.
If you just keep being nice, it's all going to be okay. If I keep being nice, it's going to be okay.

Speaker 2 I love her mom and dad. They're sweet people.
I wouldn't want to hurt them. If I keep being nice, it's all going to be okay.

Speaker 2 And dude, that's a classic.

Speaker 2 It's a classic case study.

Speaker 2 And so you've confused nice. By being so nice, you've actually caused harm.

Speaker 2 And you didn't mean to. You would never cause harm intentionally.
But I want you to be the surgeon that cuts so that there's healing.

Speaker 2 A little hurt. so that there's healing.
A little conflict so that there's healing. You don't pull the splinter out, it's going to fester.

Speaker 2 Thank you for joining us, America. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality.
My daughter is my co-host today. Des Moines, Moines, Iowa is next.
Julia is with us. Hi, Julia.

Speaker 2 How are you?

Speaker 4 Hi, Dave and Rachel. How are you?

Speaker 2 Great. How can we help?

Speaker 4 Well, my husband and I have been working the baby steps plan for about nine years. And as of last year, we hit step seven.

Speaker 2 Oh, congratulations.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 4 We're mortgage free. We're debt-free, everything.

Speaker 4 We are looking for mentorship in being outrageously generous. And I was just wondering if you had any book recommendations or how we do that.
We tithe, but

Speaker 4 above and beyond that, we're just looking for a little bit of mentorship.

Speaker 2 Good for you. Well done.

Speaker 1 It's a great question.

Speaker 1 So I'll just tell you what we do, Julia. I don't know if this is helpful at all.
And I think there are some, yeah, there's some books out there, I think, when it comes to this idea of being generous.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 you know, from like a tactical standpoint, above the tithe, How Winston and I have done it, there are organizations that we align with and and ones that are close to our heart, meaning like there's one organization we've given to for 15 years because it was an integral part of our story and we really believe in what they do.

Speaker 1 So we give there. There's been elements of different times in life where like, you know, foster care has been big on my heart and we've given to things towards that or Winston's had things.

Speaker 1 So from the organizational standpoint, it is always fun to be able to support someone who's doing what you love and what you believe in.

Speaker 1 So we've done, we've done it that way. And then this year in January, we're doing something different.
We're just adding in on the giving section of our EverDollar app. We are putting, we put

Speaker 1 an amount of money every single month and we're forcing us, we're forcing each other, we're holding each other accountable to have that money be given away. at some point in the month.

Speaker 1 So that could mean like a very generous tip could be part of that money.

Speaker 1 It could go towards if we hear something of, you know, a friend's family member, X, Y, and Z, and we're able to kind of just like anonymously give some money there.

Speaker 1 So we have found more energy in that, honestly, because the organization giving is wonderful and it's a, you know, it's great. People just do incredible things.

Speaker 1 And with the Ramsey Foundation that we as a bigger Ramsey family are involved in, there's incredible organizations.

Speaker 1 But there's something about this joy for me of seeing someone or intersecting your story with someone else and able to help kind of in the moment there.

Speaker 1 And again, it could be anonymous or not, but giving room for those things to occur.

Speaker 1 And what that's done for me, Julia, is it's caused me in an everyday instance just to be looking and I'm more aware of people because I'm like, okay, we have this money that I want to give.

Speaker 1 And like, and I do as a believer, I'm like, there's something spiritual about it where I'm like, okay, where's the Holy Spirit kind of nudging me here? And I've just found with giving,

Speaker 1 when you have a pulse on that and you're just interacting with that part of your soul, if you will, it just creates a richer life Where I feel like before we were a little bit tactical with our giving, like we gave our tithe and we'd give to an organization.

Speaker 1 But there's something about interacting with individuals on a day-to-day basis that, again, just that, that's one element, one way to give. And I've enjoyed that.
I mean, we're only in February.

Speaker 1 It's only been two months of it, but there's, I don't know, there's just like this warmth to life there.

Speaker 1 It came alive again for us because sadly, giving can get stale if you just have it on autopilot, right? So like part of this is interacting with the money you're giving to.

Speaker 1 So that's that's what Winston and I do, but Dave and Dave and Sharon do it on a larger scale.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 but it's still, it's the same.

Speaker 2 We budget a certain amount just for,

Speaker 2 and some of this we keep on the books and some of it we don't worry about as far as tax return goes, but just random acts of kindness. We just run into somebody and

Speaker 2 we want to always look across the restaurant and pick up the tab for a person in uniform. You know, we always want to do that.

Speaker 2 We always want to catch somebody doing something we love and just participate in it. That kind of stuff.
That's just low budget. It doesn't take a lot of money.
Yeah. But

Speaker 2 there's a lot of joy and it's a lot of fun. Yes.
Yes. And just, you know,

Speaker 2 we'll look across and see one of our team members and it's there with their spouse. And we just end up picking up.
Of course, I charge that back to the company, but

Speaker 2 that's an HR thing. But yeah, I may buy their dinner if they're lucky enough to land in the same restaurant I land in.
But anyway, just something like that. Just catch people doing something right.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 random acts of kindness. Just catch somebody

Speaker 2 where

Speaker 2 a few hundred dollars means a lot. And I've been in those situations and a lot of people out there have been.
So you want to do that.

Speaker 2 But that's a smaller portion of dollars, but it's like Rachel said, it's very hands-on. It's a lot of joy in it.
Random acts of kindness, we call it that.

Speaker 2 And it's just God money floating around looking for a place to land. And so then we, with the Ramsey Family Foundation, we do not give to

Speaker 2 like a bazillion different people $500 because that'll drive you nuts doing the tax returns on it.

Speaker 2 So instead, we pick just a few and really, really help them.

Speaker 2 And they're always something that is close to our heart. And many times we know the people involved in the ministry.

Speaker 2 We know the character of the people involved.

Speaker 2 And the last thing I'll add to that that Rachel didn't bring up is that I learned many years ago because I was giving a lot.

Speaker 2 And we've always been outrageously generous. It's part of our DNA.
And it's the most fun you'll have with money. So you're going to love this.
I love this question. But

Speaker 2 anyway, I treat large gifts like we're talking about as if I was doing an investment into a company. If I'm going to buy into that company, I'm going to know what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to make sure that I'm not participating. I'm not enabling

Speaker 2 you know, incompetence or bad behavior of some kind. To the extent I can tell, we don't do that.
So, for instance, we don't give to organizations ministries that run debt. Well, duh.

Speaker 2 Of course, Dave Ramsey is not going to pay a bank through a ministry. No.
So, if you're going to run debt, you're not going to be on our list of donations.

Speaker 2 We don't believe in debt. We don't borrow money.
We teach people not. How dumb would it be for us to take our generosity and give it to a bank through your ministry?

Speaker 2 Because you wanted to have a building for your ministry instead of being a renter. No, be a renter.
So, you know,

Speaker 2 that's one of the things. And that upsets people sometimes, but oh, well, I don't know why.
It's kind of obvious to me.

Speaker 2 But anyway, so we do stuff that is consistent with us, and we're looking for their operational excellence because if you're going to put X number of dollars in there, you're investing it, God's money into God's kingdom.

Speaker 2 God expects some excellence there. Just like, you know, those that are faithful in little things will be given more to manage.
And so it's not the diligent prosper, not the inept and incompetent.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then I would also say, Julia, and something I feel like we've learned from you guys is as you guys go down this path, I know you're on baby steps, you just guys just got to baby step seven, but as you continue to build wealth, and I'm talking in like in the next decade or two, also with your giving, we've put ourselves in a position where we're not the largest giver, meaning that they are so dependent upon us to fund the ministry or what they're doing, because that puts you kind of in these like handcuffed positions where you feel bad that if something changes and you're like, oh yeah, we're going to give over here, then you feel like, we feel like we can't because we're disrupting such a huge part of their operating budget.

Speaker 1 And if it weren't for us, they wouldn't be here.

Speaker 1 So even from a percentage level, I would not want to be the largest donation that they get and that they're dependent upon you to continue their ministry.

Speaker 1 Like that just puts a, it puts a weird dynamic and pressure element to that too. So that's something to think about.
We had some friends that they ran into that and it was, it just gets messy.

Speaker 1 If you want to stop it, then you're like, oh my gosh, am I closing down a ministry?

Speaker 2 Because I'm choosing not to give here anymore so it's just another filter to think through if you'll do what you're doing right now and be intentional about the subject of generosity like you're intentional about the subject of getting out of debt or you're intentional about the subject of investing you'll do really good at it and you're going to get great joy from it what happens with some people when they get to generosity they just go oh I'm just going to give it.

Speaker 2 And it's up to God to figure it out. And like, no, no, God gave it to you to manage.
And so it's not up to God to figure it out.

Speaker 2 So I think that person is going to misuse the money, but it's going to be between them and God. No, no, that's not how it works.
You need to be a grown-up.

Speaker 2 You can't be lazy on the generosity and really hardcore on the investing. So

Speaker 2 again, you don't want to take the joy out of it. You don't want to turn it into a bureaucratic nightmare every time you give $2.

Speaker 1 And that's why I like, you know, the setup of having kind of those three buckets, the tithe, the organizational that you know, and then just a little bit of that mind that we're talking about that you just have throughout the month that you're like, I just am going to be aware of people around me.

Speaker 1 And when I feel this prompting, like, I get to bless them in that moment. It's kind of those three buckets that I have.

Speaker 2 That one ends up being dollar for dollar, by far my favorite.

Speaker 1 Oh, it is like

Speaker 2 it's impossible to do that at scale as an individual. It's very hard.
It'd be like your full-time job.

Speaker 1 If that's all you did, you'd be like that guy on YouTube.

Speaker 2 You'd be trying to give him money all the time. That'd be neat.
But yeah, I hadn't got that job yet. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? Then listen up.

Speaker 2 There are tax deductions and credits you could maximize before the end of the year by connecting with an experienced tax professional like a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro.

Speaker 2 They know the tax code inside and out, so you don't have to, and they can help you file when tax season rolls around. Get a trusted tax pro by going to ramseysolutions.com slash tax pro.

Speaker 2 Ramseysolutions.com slash tax pro.

Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 2 James, do you have the numbers on what that thing, this video did on social? I don't know them off. It was millions of millions, but I don't want to super exaggerate.
It might have been 10 million.

Speaker 2 Not off the top of my head, but I can go look. Okay, if you get it, that'd be great.
So

Speaker 2 our social media team goes back through the archives of this show, and they found a talk or a call I took.

Speaker 2 Gosh, it had to be before 2019 because it was in the old studios. We've been in this building since 2019.

Speaker 2 And I could tell by the background, obviously, in the video. And they posted a clip of it.
And sometimes we around here are a little bit caught off guard by,

Speaker 2 you know, we may post 10 clips. One of them will have a million views and one of them will have

Speaker 2 40 million views or something. And so on Instagram, I've got about 5 million people on Instagram or something like that.
And so

Speaker 2 you find it? 5.8 million on Instagram.

Speaker 2 We're looking at 5.8 million this thing viewed on Instagram when they posted it, which we don't understand sometimes why some of them take off and you guys are so responsive to some of them and other ones just that we think are really cool don't take off.

Speaker 2 Anyway, this thing blew up.

Speaker 2 So we're going to play it and uh then Rachel's gonna tell us why it blew up no I'm kidding I was like I haven't seen it I haven't seen it all right watch careful then here we go

Speaker 2 I have 35 credit cards okay are you are you ready to endure some pain to get rid of this mess

Speaker 2 it's going to leave us with hardly any are you ready to endure some pain to get rid of this mess yes I am what about your husband oh yes yes he is okay all right and the two of you need to sit down together go on everydollar.com and do your budget tonight.

Speaker 2 Okay. You can download it to your iPhone or your Android or your desktop.
It's free.

Speaker 2 The check comes in, all the money goes out, and then you're broke, and you can't figure out how to go to the grocery store.

Speaker 4 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 You're not living by any kind of plan. This money is owning you.
You don't own it. And you've got to get the other side of it.
And the budget helps you do that.

Speaker 2 You're telling your money what to do instead of wondering where it went. Okay.
And then you and your husband are in agreement. We're going to sacrifice deeply because I am so sick of living like this.

Speaker 2 And when you get sick and tired of sick and tired, you're ready to change your life, kiddo.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 You can do it. And you call me back if you need help, okay?

Speaker 4 Okay. Thank you, Dave.

Speaker 2 It sounds like a call I've done 5,000 times.

Speaker 1 Well, 30, did you say 35? Maybe that was it, though.

Speaker 2 35 credit cards? Yeah, but I mean. It's a lot.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 it's a George Costanza wallet, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, you know.

Speaker 2 I don't know what that means. On Seinfeld, George had a wallet that was six inches thick.
Yeah. Seinfeld is Seinfeld.
Yeah, in a whole different world.

Speaker 1 Okay, I know.

Speaker 2 I'm friends with

Speaker 1 friends versus Seinfeld. Sorry.

Speaker 1 But no, I mean,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 don't know either. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know why 10 million people want to see that.

Speaker 1 It's probably $35,000. And everything you said in there, though, is all true.
You want to be the one controlling your money, not your money controlling you. You actually want to be able to have a say.

Speaker 1 You're exhausted of how you've been living. I mean, it is all of that pent-up tension when it comes to feeling lost and hopeless with money, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, it's, it's, it's the exact pain points so many people feel.

Speaker 2 When you reach the point of being sick and tired and being sick and tired, and Les Brown, the great motivator, I've said it a thousand times, always said, you finally say, that's it. I've had it.

Speaker 2 That's what I was asking her. Challenge her, are you ready? Yep.
Because you've got, because change is painful. Doing something you've never done before is scary.
Yep. It's frustrating.
It's painful.

Speaker 2 But you're going to keep keep getting what you've been getting unless you change the mix. If you keep making a cake and it's strawberry and you want chocolate, you should change the recipe.

Speaker 2 You know, you don't be surprised. It's chocolate again.
Who knew? Well, of course, it's the same stupid cake. You made the same stupid recipe.
So you keep doing that in your life. It's the same thing.

Speaker 2 And so if I keep eating what I've been eating, my body's going to continue to look exactly like this.

Speaker 1 Well, and any level of growth, and I'm thinking, you know, relationally, financially, physically, like any of that,

Speaker 1 I mean, all of it, there's a level of

Speaker 1 change that is so uncomfortable, but you have to be uncomfortable to grow.

Speaker 1 If you keep staying where you, you know what I mean, how you've been, you're gonna, there's no pain involved because there's no friction.

Speaker 1 It's just you're just doing the same thing over and over again, right?

Speaker 1 So, when you are changing, it's gonna be uncomfortable and there's gonna be some pain, but that means that you're growing, you're growing in an area of your life and you're not stagnant.

Speaker 2 It's not, it's not change. Uh,

Speaker 2 the pain is not for nothing, it's transformation.

Speaker 2 It's

Speaker 2 the strain of the caterpillar pushing out of the cocoon allows it to become a butterfly. It's transformation.
It's not accidental.

Speaker 2 And so you can count on you becoming the next awesome version of you hurting.

Speaker 2 It's going to be painful at times.

Speaker 2 You know, no discipline seems pleasant at the time,

Speaker 2 the Bible says. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but

Speaker 2 ding, ding, ding, but it yields a harvest of righteousness. So no, you know, no time,

Speaker 2 you know, you and Winston got the whole family doing cold plunges. At no point in doing a cold plunge

Speaker 2 is funny.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we put the little babies in there, too. No, no, God, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
But I mean, you got, you got,

Speaker 2 at no point is this fun. Yeah.
But the result is inflammation's down, all these other things. And, you know, the result is it's, you know,

Speaker 2 you pay a price to get better. And that price is the pain of change.
And until you have enough pain where you are today,

Speaker 2 you will not walk towards the pain of change. The pain of today can be just simple, just simply disgusted with myself, or it could be I'm about to get foreclosed on.

Speaker 2 I mean, the pain of today can be a lot of different kinds of pain. But you you can manifest pain today.
You can just get sick and tired of being sick and tired. That's right.
So disgust, right?

Speaker 2 And then you go, okay, 35 credit cards. I'm broke.
I look like I'm in Congress. I'm not living like this anymore.

Speaker 1 And then giving her a tool, every dollar, I think people are,

Speaker 1 they're needing something to help them in

Speaker 1 this world of money. They're needing a tool.
They're needing something to assist them because it's hard to do it on your own, right? I mean, I have a trainer to help, you know, with working out.

Speaker 1 You have, you have areas of your life that you get advice from and you have experts to help you.

Speaker 1 And now in the world of technology, you're able to, in a great way, you know, have an app on your phone that is guiding you.

Speaker 1 Just as Winston and I, we sat down two nights ago and did our August budget on Every Dollar. So I'm like, to have something assist you in it is such a gift, you guys.

Speaker 1 So the Every Dollar budget, it's that.

Speaker 1 If you go to everydollar.com and create your first budget for free and start actually doing this, that's a gift in and and of itself of having a tool come alongside you as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but then you have to do it. You have to stick to what you wrote down.

Speaker 2 And if you wrote down something that's different than the way you used to live and it says, okay, we're not going to spend anything on restaurants this month and we've been living at restaurants prior.

Speaker 2 That's that's a big change. That's right.
Yep. And you know, it'll be about 30 minutes before that little devil on your shoulder says, Chick-fil-A.

Speaker 2 No, the devil would not say Chick-fil-A. That's Jesus chicken.
But

Speaker 2 he might say chipotle. Chipotle.
He might say chipotle. Yeah, I don't know.
What would the devil say? But anyway, you see what I'm saying? There's going to be some kind of little thing reminding you.

Speaker 1 Taco Bell.

Speaker 2 Taco Bell. Oh, that's definitely the devil.
No question, that's the devil.

Speaker 2 Okay, so, oh, my gosh. So anyway, whatever it is, you go, okay, what's the temptation?

Speaker 2 You know, you used to watch those cartoons when you were a little kid with Fred Flintstone, and he would have a little devil on one shoulder, a little angel on the other shoulder, right? Whispering.

Speaker 2 And what's the temptation?

Speaker 2 Somebody's going to try to drag you back to your land of stupid that you're trying to leave, even though you have a roadmap with your every dollar budget on how to leave the land of stupid.

Speaker 2 Drive on, boy. Drive on.
Get through, get through, get through, push through, get through. The old country song, if you're going through hell, keep going.
You know, keep going.

Speaker 2 There's nothing on the other side. Deloney talks about that.
If you're going through a hard time, the fastest way through a hard time is straight into it.

Speaker 2 Not trying to back up, not trying to run around it, not trying to avoid it. Run right straight through it.
And that's true of change. That's true of transformation.

Speaker 2 And that's why we teach that snowball because you get out of debt fast. We want you to lean in with intensity.
And

Speaker 2 this is why the every dollar system works. So

Speaker 2 I guess that's what that was. I don't know.

Speaker 2 It is a bit of a mystery.

Speaker 1 I was waiting for something so profound. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 Yeah, really. It's a bit of a mystery to me that the things I've said like 80,000 times occasionally go viral and other times they're just flat and it could be the 35 credit cards that might have been

Speaker 2 it was a good opener

Speaker 2 a good teaser yeah this is the ramsey show

Speaker 2 hey guys dave ramsey here winning at money is 80 behavior and 20 head knowledge what to do isn't the problem doing it is In her brand new book, What No One Tells You About Money, Jade Warshaw dives deep into the reasons you've been stuck.

Speaker 2 This book exposes the real emotional fight with money and shows you how to win that battle. Pre-order now for $24.99, and you'll get over $100 of free bonus items.

Speaker 2 Get your copy today at ramseysolutions.com/slash store.

Speaker 2 Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fair Winds Credit Union Studios. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Cruz.

Speaker 2 Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today and my daughter. Open phones at 888-825-5225.
Brittany's in Los Angeles. Hi, Brittany.
How are you?

Speaker 4 Hi, Dave. Hi, Rachel.
Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 4 I am in a bit of a pickle right now. I bought a house a year ago and I am in

Speaker 4 a bit of a financial rut. So I'm wondering if I should sell my house or if I should put it up for rental.

Speaker 1 Is this your primary home, Brittany?

Speaker 4 Yes and no. It's kind of complex.
I did buy it. as a primary.
However, I did have the intent to also, well, the intent was to live in it, but also I was going to Airbnb it because i do work in la

Speaker 4 so it but i don't live there my my house is in the mountains it's a cabin in the mountains so um when i decided to buy a home i asked my mother you know

Speaker 4 to help me and she has a cabin up here i should preference this by saying i also do have another cabin but i own that one with my dad um and he pays 100% for that one.

Speaker 4 I haven't had to put a dime into it

Speaker 4 upon getting it in, you know, post, it's been about two years. So I was able to qualify for one on my own because of that.

Speaker 4 I had the intent of getting the house as an Airbnb whenever I'm not here. My mom's Airbnb was doing phenomenal, but I came in at the absolute worst time.

Speaker 4 When the market started

Speaker 4 dropping was earlier this year, it was pretty much right after election, and I had gotten my permit in about February.

Speaker 2 So I think I heard you say in the last few minutes, I wish I hadn't done this.

Speaker 2 Did I hear you say that? Yes. Did I hear you say that?

Speaker 2 Okay, so what's what's the cabin worth, right? What's the cabin worth?

Speaker 4 So so the cabin is worth $360.

Speaker 2 It's what I bought it for. Good.
And what do you owe against it?

Speaker 4 I owe about $350. It was three, I think it's yeah, $350.

Speaker 2 Okay. So you put almost nothing down?

Speaker 4 I did put money down, but the interest is so bad that

Speaker 4 when I put it down, it was like $3.53

Speaker 4 at the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but you didn't put much down.

Speaker 2 No. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
So you don't have a lot of equity. So I'm not even sure

Speaker 2 if you sell it, you might not even break even, agreed?

Speaker 4 That's agreed, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Have you thought about putting it up for sale?

Speaker 4 I have. I have a

Speaker 4 realtor actually going to come over tomorrow morning because I put a lot of work into the home. So when it got appraised, one of the things that was noted was the fact that it hadn't been touched.

Speaker 4 The house was built in like 1978. Most of the cabins up here are very old.

Speaker 2 So if you've done all this work to it, why has it not gone up in value?

Speaker 4 Well, I'm going to get the comps tomorrow.

Speaker 2 Oh, so you don't know what it's worth right now. Okay.

Speaker 4 I don't know. I'm just going based off of what Zillow is saying.

Speaker 2 Don't use Zillow as truth. Okay.
That's gross.

Speaker 1 Hopefully it'll be more.

Speaker 2 Let's pretend it's 400. That's what I'm hoping.
Yeah, let's pretend it's 400

Speaker 2 and you can sell it and you sell it and your problems go away.

Speaker 2 Is there something wrong with this plan?

Speaker 4 Nothing's wrong with this plan. The only thing is, so that's why I'm debating.
I just don't know because I'm seeing, I follow houses on here on Zillow like religiously.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you need to keep it looking at

Speaker 2 me, but

Speaker 4 it probably isn't.

Speaker 4 I like to see what houses are actually selling for versus what they're being, you know, you know, you can list it for whatever you want to list it for, but right now it's like not a buyer's market.

Speaker 4 So I'm very I'm kind of stressed about that.

Speaker 2 I'm like, well, could I actually really but you're kind of stressed about keeping it too

Speaker 4 Not true.

Speaker 2 So listen, I think you need to really carefully define that what you did with this purchase, the way you did this purchase, the purpose you did this purchase for, as a group, those set of ideas were bad.

Speaker 2 They did not bring you a good result.

Speaker 2 Because you're stressed, you're behind on your bills, life's not good. Nothing turned out like it did in your little dream when you were surfing Zillow.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 now you need to reset and go, if I'm going to do real estate, it has to be different than the way I did this. This sucks.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Sell it.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. Sell it.
I want you to have your life back. I like you.

Speaker 4 Thank you. I want my life back too.

Speaker 4 I do a lot in my life and have a lot of hobbies and obviously everything has to be

Speaker 4 put on hold because I'm barely keeping up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's caused stress, Brittany.

Speaker 1 Yes, Dr. John Deloni always says, solve for peace.
What creates peace in my life? This is not bringing you peace.

Speaker 1 This is bringing you stress and harm and lack of sleep because you're stressed about all of it, right? So, so just why would you, I'm just curious from you, there's a little bit of the hesitation.

Speaker 1 Why are you hesitant?

Speaker 2 She hasn't given up on the Airbnb Zillow surfing dream. No, actually,

Speaker 4 actually i i don't care for airbnb and i and i did say that after i got into it i was like it's something about and it's because most people when they do airbnb obviously that home is a secondary home for me i am here whenever it's not booked because like i said i own a cabin with my dad four minutes away so i don't have personables here it's kind of all over the place my personables is at my mom's house i have a bag here of things that i need and that doesn't answer rachel's question

Speaker 2 what's your what's your hesitation yeah self-conscious My hesitation is that

Speaker 4 I bought the house and I felt very proud of myself. As a young girl, buying a house in California is really hard.
And so I'm just stressed because I'm like, am I going to be able to do this again?

Speaker 4 I went through like leaps and bounds to get it the first time.

Speaker 4 And it was really good.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you took a lot of jumps and did a lot of dances and ran around the barn three times and clicked your heels and finally got the house and it ended up not being anything like you thought it was going to be, you forced a situation.

Speaker 2 I am proud of you for getting something done, but I was your age when I went broke because I did it wrong. You don't have to go completely broke, thank God.

Speaker 2 You can just dump this thing and learn your lesson and go, the way I did this, the set of assumptions I used to make this decision were wrong.

Speaker 1 And Brittany, everybody makes mistakes. And yes, buying a home is a great thing, and we want that.
I think that's a smart decision in life, life, but that's not who you are, right?

Speaker 1 I feel like you're tying your identity to this decision that you've made. And for some reason, if you go back on that, it's like you're a failure or something.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 1 who you are, your net worth is not your self-worth.

Speaker 1 It doesn't equal who Brittany is. And so separating those things out and saying, this is who I am with a house or not, with a nice car or not, with a second home or not.
Like you are who you are.

Speaker 1 And then all of these other things are additions in your life. We want to make sure the things things that are additional in your life are blessing you and are good for you and not taking away.

Speaker 1 So, this is this may feel like a step back for you, but it's not. I think it's a learning idea.
And you will buy a house again.

Speaker 1 I really do believe that, Brittany, you will, but you just have to be smart about it and just to be able to have the humility to say, yeah, this was not a smart decision right now, but it's not who you are.

Speaker 1 You're not a failure, right? And so, you got to separate those two things. They feel very intertwined to me as you're speaking.

Speaker 1 Listen up, guys, because I've got a big question for you. Where will you be with your money at the end of 2026? Will you be better off, worse, or exactly the same?

Speaker 1 Believe it or not, you get to choose. Look, I know there's a lot going on that can make you feel powerless over your money, but I want you to hear me.
You're more in control than you think.

Speaker 1 You can turn your finances around. So let me help you out.
Start your year off with me and Dave Ramsey at our free Every Dollar live stream event on January 8th.

Speaker 1 We're cutting through all the lies and all the chaos out there that's keeping you stuck. So you have the clarity you need to finally get ahead.
And you could even win $2,000 just for signing up.

Speaker 1 Listen, another year is going to pass anyway. So decide that this is the year you're going to take back control of your life and your money.

Speaker 1 Go sign up for the free live stream at everydollar.com/slash livestream.

Speaker 2 Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host, number one best-selling author, and my daughter. If you like what you're hearing here, we could use your help.
You are our marketing plan.

Speaker 2 Spread the word on this show. Share the show.
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Speaker 2 You can subscribe and you can follow and you can leave nice five-star reviews and you can click the clip of the link out and make a copy of it and send it to your friend by email and go listen to this.

Speaker 2 This stuff's helping me with my life because that's what we're here for. And we need your help.
We need to have more people that we're helping. That's what we're doing.

Speaker 2 And thank you for those of you that have been doing that because our numbers are ridiculously up. And we don't even have a stadium named after us like Sufai or something like that.

Speaker 2 Sorry, the allergies are bad. But the,

Speaker 2 yeah, you're our marketing plan. We're not dropping 300 million on a stadium.
You're it.

Speaker 2 So thank you. We're either helping you or we're not.
And that's what we're here for. Thank you very much.
Courtney is in Dallas. Hi, Courtney.
How are you?

Speaker 4 I'm doing good. How are you guys?

Speaker 2 Better than we deserve. What's up in your world?

Speaker 4 Well, nothing much. I was wondering if you guys could tell me what the benefit is of not using an escrow account to pay for home insurance and taxes.

Speaker 2 Two things. One, you get to keep the money all year and earn interest on it instead of it sitting in an account that's non-interest bearing until you pay your taxes and pay your insurance.

Speaker 2 So it accrues accrues interest. And the second one is you don't screw up the accounting.

Speaker 2 And mortgage companies notoriously screw up the accounting on escrow accounts and they get out of balance and there's an escrow shortage and then they raise your payment to make up the shortage or they just miscalculate something and you got somebody that's the lowest common denominator running the calculation too many times.

Speaker 2 And when I used to own a bunch of property with debt back in the day, I would say as many as 40% of the accounts were screwed up.

Speaker 2 So I don't know if it's still that bad because I haven't had a mortgage in 30-plus years,

Speaker 2 but I suspect it is still a problem. The

Speaker 2 benefit of using the escrow account is it's on autopilot. You don't have to think about it.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 Okay. And most people don't manage their money well enough that they end up not having the money to pay their taxes or not having the money to pay their insurance.
It sneaks up on them like Christmas.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and I know that some mortgage companies don't even give you the option sometimes. They require you to use an escrow account.

Speaker 2 Correct. A typical conforming mortgage, meaning a Fannie Mae, FHA, or VA, will require it

Speaker 2 because they want to make sure that the house they have a lien against doesn't burn or isn't taken for taxes.

Speaker 4 Right. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, you don't really have a choice. I personally, if I were you, I would just use the escrow account, but I would stay on them to make sure it's the proper amount.

Speaker 4 Okay. How do you recommend staying on top of them?

Speaker 2 Well, you just want to make sure that the amount being taken out of your payment for your payment is principal interest. If it has escrow, it's taxes and insurance, P-I-T-I.

Speaker 2 And you want to make sure the amount being held out for taxes and insurance each month is 1 twelfth of the total of your taxes and insurance.

Speaker 2 It shouldn't be less than that because you're going to come up short and then they're going to have a shortage because they're going to pay it either way.

Speaker 2 don't want to get, they don't want you to be behind. And then, or there could be an overage.
Let's say they're taking out more than they need to.

Speaker 2 And so just make sure that the numbers are right and just look at it once a year and make sure they're not, you know, if your taxes and your insurance actually go up and they don't change the amount being withheld for it, you're going to get behind, right?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 That's one of the ways you'd look at it. So that's the kind of thing you're doing.
So I would use the escrow if I were in that situation.

Speaker 2 I don't recommend because I put everything on autopilot that I can.

Speaker 1 Just so you don't have to. Yeah.
So save it. Everyone.
Yeah. Even though it's not earning interest.

Speaker 2 It's not enough interest to matter.

Speaker 1 It's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And

Speaker 2 more people are going to screw it up by not saving up the money. Right.
Then the mortgage company is going to screw up the escrow account.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's probably true.

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we have a part of our website that talks all about this and all real estate at ramseysolutions.com slash real estate.

Speaker 1 That's kind of our real estate home base because we just, it's one topic when it comes to your money that we get so many questions.

Speaker 1 So if you guys need more resources, there's free stuff, videos and articles and calls from the show. There's so much there to help you in this, in this topic of your money when it comes to your home.

Speaker 2 Yeah, ramseysolutions.com slash real estate. Honestly, it's the

Speaker 2 that portion of our site is massive because we so get we get so much questions on real estate and it's really it's really a nice resource to help you. Yeah, for sure.
So good stuff.

Speaker 1 Good question, question, Courtney.

Speaker 2 Yes, excellent, excellent question.

Speaker 2 Jerry is with us in Norfolk, Virginia. Hi, Jerry.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 Hi, thank you.

Speaker 4 So, my question: I have a bunch of accounts. I have a Charles Schwab brokerage account.

Speaker 4 I have

Speaker 4 Charles Schwab IRA Traditional and a Charles Schwab Roth.

Speaker 4 Now, I also, well, I also have a principal. Now, principal is the company my employer handles are 401.

Speaker 4 So I was looking at their website, and it looks like they charge me about $100 a month to have that account.

Speaker 2 They don't have the option. Yeah, I thought that was kind of high.

Speaker 2 That's wrong.

Speaker 4 Well, that's what it says under fees.

Speaker 2 You have a 401k

Speaker 2 and they're charging it with your company?

Speaker 4 Correct. I'm I'm a hospital employee.

Speaker 2 And they're is a four hundred three B or four hundred one K?

Speaker 4 401K.

Speaker 2 And they're charging you $100 a month, $1,200 a year.

Speaker 4 Actually, $300 a quarter, if you want to be specific. But yes, basically a hundred yeah, it says it right here.
Plan administrative services 288.70.

Speaker 2 Is that being deducted from your account or is your employer paying that?

Speaker 4 I don't know. I'm just looking at the website where it says plan fees.
So I'm assuming I'm paying it.

Speaker 2 I'm not, because you shouldn't be.

Speaker 4 Okay, well, that's a plus.

Speaker 2 It would be very unusual. As a matter of fact, your employer shouldn't be paying that much per employee.
That's asinine amount of money.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I kind of thought so.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't pay anywhere near that. I got 1,200 employees with a 401k plan a year.

Speaker 2 Not even close to that.

Speaker 2 I would fire those people in a heartbeat if they were charging me that.

Speaker 4 Well, how do I find out if I'm paying that then?

Speaker 2 Call HR.

Speaker 4 On the website, it says plan fees.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I mean, it can be a planned fee, but the plan wasn't instituted by you. It was instituted by the employer.
So it's possible they're being charged that.

Speaker 2 That's just ludicrous. I would call HR and I would call principal both and ask them.

Speaker 2 Okay. Just call principal and go, hey, I got a 401k and I'm looking at the statement here.
and this feels like

Speaker 2 you guys should be wearing a mask like you're robbers. Oh, my gosh.
No, really? That's just ridiculous.

Speaker 1 What was your question, though, Jerry? Your original question you called in?

Speaker 4 So my question was, I now have the option of instead of the money going to principal to take care of it, I can have it go to Charles Schwab,

Speaker 2 which then I would have the money. And the hospital is allowing that?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't know if that's new or not, but I was actually talking to them and they said, if you want, we can have it go to

Speaker 4 Charles Schwab

Speaker 2 account.

Speaker 4 So I'm assuming it's some kind of lockdown type account. But then I would have total control to buy, sell, or do whatever I want with it.

Speaker 4 But that kind of scares me because, at least with principle, I have theoretically an expert looking after it versus me, the amateur, looking after after it.

Speaker 4 So I'm basically looking for your advice. Is the $1,200 that I thought I was paying worth an expert looking at it? No.

Speaker 2 But you can get another expert. You don't have to do this other thing.
Okay, I'm

Speaker 2 seriously confused. I have no idea what the flip your company is doing because

Speaker 2 a company has a single 401k administrator.

Speaker 2 if principal is their administrator they cannot send your 401k money to schwab it's illegal they can't do it you have a single you can't have four different 401k companies at your company it there's no such thing it doesn't work okay so i absolutely have no idea what you're up against the only thing i can do is tell you to call one of our smart vestor pros and see if they can unravel this for you just go to ramseysolutions.com and click on smart vestor by the way they can help you if you're going to be doing side investing This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 The all-new every dollar is here and now it's way more than just the world-class budgeting app. Ton of advanced features to help you make faster progress on the Ramsey plan with your money.

Speaker 2 The average person finds thousands, literally thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 15 minutes of starting up. Start every dollar for free today.
Get it in the App Store or Google Play.

Speaker 2 All right. Jeremy and Deborah are with us on the debt-free stage.
What's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave. Hey, Rachel.
Welcome, welcome. How are you guys?

Speaker 2 How are y'all? Where do y'all live?

Speaker 9 Charlotte, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 Just over the hill. Welcome, man.
Welcome. It's good to have y'all.
And if you're on the debt-free stage, it can only mean one thing. You're debt-free.
And how much have you paid off?

Speaker 8 $85,614.

Speaker 2 Very cool. Nice.
And how long did this take?

Speaker 8 62 months.

Speaker 2 Good for you. Wonderful.
And your range of income during that five years?

Speaker 8 $72,000 to $82,000.

Speaker 2 Cool. What do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 8 We own a small business in Charlotte doing custom window treatments.

Speaker 2 Oh, very cool. Good for you.
Awesome. What kind of debt was this? $86,000?

Speaker 9 It was our house day.

Speaker 2 All the way. It has an $86,000 mortgage.
Right.

Speaker 9 Yeah, we had what was left on our mortgage. We had a little bit of a backstory with ours.
We actually got out of debt, consumer debt, about 10 years ago, following your principles.

Speaker 9 And then we went through a stage of infertility. And I ended up getting pregnant with our first daughter.
Yay. That

Speaker 9 we unfortunately lost her at 24 weeks.

Speaker 9 But we knew that we needed to stack money for her. We knew she was going to have needs.

Speaker 9 So we put the house, you know, we paid the payments, but we put some extra on the side. Yeah.
And in 2020, we were able to bring our first daughter home.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 9 And then in 21, we were able to bring our son home.

Speaker 2 Yes. Oh, it's much better than paying off a mortgage.

Speaker 9 Yes, it was. And over that time, we

Speaker 9 knew that we wanted to put them in really great school, take care of them like we were going to take care of their sister.

Speaker 9 And we kind of had that money sitting to the side and we had that left on our mortgage and we thought, you know what?

Speaker 9 Let's just do it.

Speaker 2 Let's be weird people.

Speaker 2 Just pay it off. Yeah, paid it all.
And we'll use the fact that we don't have a mortgage to take care of the kiddos.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 9 Yes, it has blessed us. They're able to go to a private Christian school and, you know, little things like that that we wouldn't have been able to do had we not done this.

Speaker 2 Wow. Huge blessing in our life.
Thankfully. What's the house worth?

Speaker 8 About $350,000.

Speaker 2 Way to go. Very nice.
Good job, you guys. Thank you.
You've been stacking cash for this. Have you been investing as well? We have.
And how much in your retirement Nesteg? Probably about $200,000.

Speaker 2 All right. So over a half million dollar net worth already.

Speaker 2 Way to go, y'all. And no stinking payments in the world.
None. Done.
How's that feel? I don't know yet. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 Just half payments. It feels amazing to me.
It's got to be stinking. It's got to stink in.

Speaker 8 Made my last payment and had some major house problems, so we had to deal with that. And now we're able to write a check for it.
And so it's not fully sink in yet, but

Speaker 1 the next few months.

Speaker 9 It's been a blessing to be able to do that and not go back into debt, to be able to take care of the house needs.

Speaker 1 Yes, for sure. Absolutely.
Because a lot of people call our show with that situation.

Speaker 1 They have the 85 in investments or something, non-retirement, and they're like, oh, but I'm making a good spread on, you know, we're making good money.

Speaker 1 Would you say it's 100% worth it to just know that there is no mortgage? 100%.

Speaker 9 At least 100%.

Speaker 2 If not more.

Speaker 9 Yes. If not more.

Speaker 8 Yeah, we spoke with you and John last year at the money marriage and had

Speaker 8 advice for us for the situation where we were in. And

Speaker 8 it helped us guide us to where we needed to do. And one day we were just like, no more.

Speaker 2 Write the check. Just

Speaker 8 build that account back up.

Speaker 2 Boom. Love it.
Yep. Boom.

Speaker 1 So great, you guys. Well done.
Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 It's good to see y'all again.

Speaker 1 I'm glad you're back.

Speaker 2 We're so excited to be back. So fun.
Welcome back on the Ramsey campus. Yeah, good to have y'all.

Speaker 2 So now, with all this you've been through, you pay off the consumer debt, you stack cash, you fight the whole infertility battle, which is an emotional roller coaster. It was, yes.

Speaker 2 And then you turn around, look up and go, stack of cash, mortgage, gone.

Speaker 2 And so, like three different major parts to this story almost, timeline-wise.

Speaker 2 What's your advice to people on what's the, you know, when we always ask people, you know, what do you tell people

Speaker 2 about what you do to get out of debt? What was the key thing that enabled you to go through all three of those phases?

Speaker 9 I would say,

Speaker 9 yeah,

Speaker 9 you have to have a team. You have to be a team.
You have to be on the same page

Speaker 9 because it could have easily tore us apart. You know, what we walked through infertility-wise and then losing our daughter, that was very rough.

Speaker 9 But it almost fueled a piece of me that it didn't fuel in him. And I was able to say, you know what, let's double down.
Let's do this. Let's, for our future, for our future children.

Speaker 9 And we're able to do that now.

Speaker 9 the feeling of knowing that we've changed our trajectory for our kids and their lives, you can't put money on that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you change your family tree. Exactly.
We say it all the time, but it really does mean something. Yes, it does.

Speaker 1 Just from where you guys came from, how you grew up. Do you look and think like that was that where you're standing today? Did that feel impossible?

Speaker 9 1,000% for me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 8 I had great role models as a kid.

Speaker 8 My dad was probably a Ramsey fan, but he didn't know it

Speaker 8 until I met you. And then

Speaker 8 he was all on board because he's like, that's how he lived his life.

Speaker 8 And I tried, but then get married, make stupid decisions and pay lots of stupid tax on a lot of stuff you know and then just you know being able to turn that corner and and know about the you know future that we want to have and the possibilities and you know are endless what's the dumbest thing you ever did with money oh boy

Speaker 2 much time we got left

Speaker 9 pick one the best one probably vehicles yeah okay buying vehicles that we had no yeah i bought a 2016 fully loaded off the showroom floor maxima with 20 inch rims on it No money.

Speaker 9 And I had no money to my name. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And now you bought that in 2016. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
2016. Yeah, that wasn't now.
You didn't buy that the other day. Yeah.
No, no. Yeah.

Speaker 8 That's it. You know, since this whole journey, we've financed three pregnancies, you know, cash flow.

Speaker 7 Cash flow, not finance.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Multiple vehicles in cash.

Speaker 8 You know, it's just

Speaker 2 a whole reverse trend. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 8 Never important.

Speaker 2 Never go back. Well, I wasn't doing that to make fun of you.
I just want to remind people that

Speaker 2 you can do dumb things and not be dumb.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I have done some incredibly stupid things, and I'm not stupid, but I have done some stupid butt stuff in my life.
And so I look back on it, I'm like, you, you, man, it's dumb.

Speaker 2 But yeah, but then you go, but I don't have to live that way. I can change.
Right.

Speaker 8 Just the piece that you get to

Speaker 8 have foundation issues at your house that you, you know, oh, it's just an inconvenience, like you say.

Speaker 8 It turns it from an emergency fund.

Speaker 9 You know, it's just, you know, to be able to pay for our kids school and yeah you know it not be a question so good how old are the kids now five and three five and three okay so great oh were they kind of part of it was the five-year-old like funny enough she's she's she's learning um we have a school store at school so she's learning about the privilege of earning and yeah being able to buy what she wants and we have the the kids um the financial piece GR stuff yeah we have it for her so we're working through that with her I love it sometimes you know at five it goes in one ear and I'll pick it up 100% I was gonna say because some kids you know people that are working the plan now that are listening, they have kids in the home and they're kind of, you know, part of that journey.

Speaker 1 Ours are obviously, yeah, they're younger. But

Speaker 1 to think that they'll never know. They'll never know parents with stress around money.

Speaker 2 And hopefully they'll project them to live the same way. 21% live the same way.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 2 That's all done, you guys.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. So good.

Speaker 1 Proud of y'all.

Speaker 2 Thank you, cheerleaders. Who was cheering you on? We did.

Speaker 8 We got family.

Speaker 2 Friends here.

Speaker 8 We met at the Money Marriage Retreat last year. Yes.

Speaker 8 Became friends. And

Speaker 8 they said they'd drive up to meet us whenever we did it.

Speaker 8 And obviously, we've had family,

Speaker 8 some here, some not here anymore.

Speaker 2 Wonderful.

Speaker 2 Well, congratulations. We're very proud of you.
Thank you. Jeremy and Deborah, Charlotte, North Carolina, $86,000 paid off.
House and everything.

Speaker 2 Yes, they are official weirdos. They did this in 62 months, making 72 to 82.
Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Speaker 2 Three, two, two, one.

Speaker 2 We're debt-free!

Speaker 2 Yes!

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 you watch their

Speaker 2 body language. You guys, if you're not watching this on video, you watch their body language, Rachel, and the way they're interacting.
The unity is apparent just in their presence. So strong.
That

Speaker 2 they were knitted together

Speaker 2 by the tragedies and by the victories and by the victories. Yes.
And pretty cool. Yep.
Pretty cool stuff.

Speaker 2 Our scripture of the day, Psalm 145, 16 and 17: you open your hand, you satisfy the desire of every living thing. The Lord is righteous in all his ways and kind

Speaker 2 in his works.

Speaker 2 J.K. Rowling says, if you want to see the true measure of a man, watch how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.

Speaker 2 Melody is with us in Seattle. Hi, Melody.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 4 Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 4 So I just have a question

Speaker 4 about how to

Speaker 4 talk to my husband about credit cards because

Speaker 4 I've been listening to this show since June and

Speaker 4 I'm convinced. I'm ready to cut up our cards, but

Speaker 4 he's not convinced yet. So I'm just wondering how I can talk to him about this without being too pushy.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 what's his main pushback when you mention it?

Speaker 4 He likes the rewards. That's his main thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And I'll lesser level the credit score, but he's mostly into the rewards.

Speaker 1 For sure. And why do you want to live without them?

Speaker 4 I can kind of tell the difference when

Speaker 4 I purchase things with the credit cards versus my debit card. Like,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 when I buy something with a debit card, I like have a mental thought. Like,

Speaker 4 this is coming directly from our bank account, and I can feel the difference in how much I buy, I think, because of that.

Speaker 1 For sure. Do you guys have do you guys have a lot of debt? Do you have credit card debt, or do you pay it off every month?

Speaker 4 No, he's very detail-oriented. He pays off credit cards consistently every month, and we're not in any debt.
So,

Speaker 4 yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah, so for me, this comes down then to a values conversation. And I would be curious, Melody, for you, is it,

Speaker 1 you know, is there more in it for you than just, oh, yeah, I feel different when I spend with a debit card versus a credit card? Or is there an idea of autonomy, not being more in control?

Speaker 1 because you're spending your money, right? It's, it's getting to that deeper why for you.

Speaker 1 And that's what I would, that's what i would lead with and um and what makes you uncomfortable about it what you don't like about it and just having that conversation because i mean yeah i think that the truth is sure people pay it off every month you know that that that is a that's a reality but i think when you actually taste this world of oh gosh i don't owe anyone anything and i actually use my money in the present And I'm not waiting for a bill at the end of the month, right?

Speaker 1 Like it's just, there's a shift there.

Speaker 1 There's a piece there that I have in me that is so much greater than trying to chase after these rewards that end up not really being a ton, to be honest, you know? And so

Speaker 1 that's the leading conversation I would have.

Speaker 2 I would also just pan back.

Speaker 2 I didn't get rid of my credit cards because I hated credit cards.

Speaker 2 I got rid of my credit cards because I hate debt.

Speaker 2 And so I would pan back and say, let's have a discussion not about credit cards, but about debt.

Speaker 2 Well, we don't do it. We don't go into debt.
Okay. If we don't go into debt,

Speaker 2 why do we need a credit score?

Speaker 2 Because the credit score has one purpose, and there's only one way to maintain it, and that is to run debt. The algorithm that develops a credit score, Fair Isaac put this together.

Speaker 2 as an organization, and the credit score is 100% of the algorithm has to do with your interfacing with debt. If you do not borrow money,

Speaker 2 your credit score will disappear.

Speaker 2 And if you're not going to borrow money, that's not a big deal.

Speaker 2 That's, you know, that's panning back from the credit card.

Speaker 2 And then that kind of does, then I don't need a credit card to maintain my credit score because my credit score is not an indication that you're doing good with money.

Speaker 2 It's an indication you've been playing kissy face with the bank a lot.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 then,

Speaker 2 you know, the points

Speaker 2 are

Speaker 2 laughable

Speaker 2 because one, there's, you know, Discover card gives 1% back. Well, let's run the numbers on that.
If I run $100,000 through my Discover Card, I get $1,000.

Speaker 2 On what planet is that a method to become wealthy?

Speaker 2 That math is absurd.

Speaker 2 It's like saying, I'm going to go to Chuck E. Cheese and run up all the tickets I can run up to buy those

Speaker 2 10 cent, 5 cent things, and it's cost me $86 to get that 10 cent thing with those tickets at Chuck E. Cheese.
That's what your points are.

Speaker 2 It's exactly how it works.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so, and, you know,

Speaker 2 we've done detailed studies of millionaires. We've never met one that said, you know, I became a millionaire because of my points.

Speaker 2 Right. So it's trading dollars for pennies and somehow feeling like I collected something, like

Speaker 2 I beat them at their game. And so both of his objections are inaccurate when you get into the reality of them.

Speaker 1 And I would be curious, Melody, too, just to do an experiment and just say, hey, for

Speaker 1 five months, can we just use a debit card? And at the end, like, let's talk through what that is.

Speaker 1 Because, because there is a truth that when you live in debt, and even if you pay off and pay it every single month and it doesn't feel like a big deal, the moment you step out of that cycle, something does psychologically change.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're speaking. Yeah, we had friends and, you know, they had car loans and

Speaker 1 they could, they made great monies. They easily could afford it.
It wasn't, you know, this like crazy stretch.

Speaker 1 But then they decided, yeah, the next car, we'll just pay in cash. And we talked, and they ended up, we talked at dinner.

Speaker 1 And and he was like that's amazing like i i didn't realize what big of a deal it was to just own my car and i don't i don't know why we didn't do this in the first place so like again even if you can quote unquote afford the bill at the end of the month yeah rachel's right when you get out of that if you cut up your credit cards and do away with them as a testing go six months if you don't like it they'll they'll give them back to you

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 you can get more credit cards you'll get 17 during that six months right i mean it's like in the mail unsolicited unsolicited.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, it's not like they're going to go away or something.

Speaker 2 But I think it's a bigger question, is my point, than just a credit card. I think the bigger question is, what is our goal here?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 my take on it, and it's made a lot of people wealthy following that take, is that your number one wealth building tool is your income.

Speaker 2 Don't give your income to someone in the form of debt payments and expect to become wealthy.

Speaker 2 And you all aren't using debt, and yet he's tinkering around and playing footsie with it as if he's somehow beating them at their game. And it just doesn't work out in the end.
So,

Speaker 2 and MIT has done studies, others have done studies that when you spend cash, you spend 12 to 15% less than when you spend plastic. And I'm waiting for the research to come out.

Speaker 2 I guess we're going to have to go do it

Speaker 2 on the swiping your phone.

Speaker 2 No, when when you say cash, you mean debit card? No, I mean cash. Debit card is a little less than a credit card.
Not a lot, but it's a little less.

Speaker 2 You spend it a little less, but it's not $12 to $15.

Speaker 2 I'm talking about actual Benjamin's. Yeah.
Because when you put, when you lay Uncle Benjamin Franklin on the table, you have an ouchy moment. It's like, oh, crap.
That's like money and stuff.

Speaker 2 You pay cash for your groceries. You will get so pissed off about inflation you can't see.

Speaker 2 I mean, really,

Speaker 2 if you people had to pay your taxes in cash on Friday, there would be a revolution

Speaker 2 because you would see how much money you're giving the government. It would freak you out.

Speaker 2 If you had to walk to the tax collector like in biblical days, you would hate Matthew. Oh my gosh.
You know, I mean, really, if you paid it out, that's the power of the emotion of this. And

Speaker 2 it's called friction in the marketing world. And so if you're on Amazon, you just hit click, click, click, click, click, click, crap starts landing on your phone.

Speaker 1 And I think there is something to say, though, that when it's coming out of your account right then,

Speaker 1 you do feel that differently. You feel it more.

Speaker 2 You do feel it more. I'll just pay it later.
There's more friction. But I mean, if you're just swiping that Apple Pay phone, man, these people just walk and they walk past it.
They'll click it.

Speaker 2 And they walk past and hit it and it's gone, man. I'm out of here.
Like, they don't even know they bought something. It didn't even hit their memory.

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh. Wow.
That's convenient.

Speaker 2 I'm such a boomer. Wow.
Oh, well. I'm good with that, though.
I don't like my other options. You don't use Apathé.

Speaker 2 You're right. I don't.

Speaker 2 I promise you, I don't. I'm old school.
That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it.

Speaker 2 In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.