Ditch Debt Quickly so You Can Build Wealth Slowly

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Ken Coleman, number one bestselling author and host of the Ken Coleman Show here at Ramsey, is my co-host today.
Open phones at 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225.
Right before we turn on the microphones, Ken and I were just discussing a fabulous appearance he just did on Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs. Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs has a podcast that's a long-form interview podcast.
Mike and I have been friends a long, long time, and I've done it a couple times, and Ken was just a guest on there, and I think it posted this week, and I listened to it all the way through um it's an hour and 40 minutes of you two guys having way too much fun but it's very informative a great discussion if you haven't checked out Mike's podcast we recommend that you do especially this week with Ken being on there it was incredible Ken great job thank you Brenda is in Tampa Florida to start off this hour hi Brenda, Brenda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Sure. What's up? So my husband and I have been listening or found you in December last year, and we started the EveryDollar app.
And we have gotten off already of like thirty six thousand dollars in debt but

we still have way more to go and we have around two hundred and fifty five thousand dollars in debt still and we were wondering um like to accelerate it a little bit if we should sell our house it does it is 2.75 AP on our house, but just to see what your opinion was. Okay.
The $250,000 in debt, does that include your mortgage? It does not. Okay.
What's it on? Student loans? It's student loan, solar panel, one car, credit cards, and a pool loan.

Yeah, we did very bad mistakes, but we're learning from our bad habits.

What do you owe on the car?

The car, $35,000.

Okay.

And what's your household income?

We bring home around $9,500 a a month do you like your house okay we do we have two well it has nice solar panels in a pool we know that yeah yeah so yeah okay um if i'm in your shoes i'm not selling the house except as a worstcase scenario, if you get completely stuck. You have a pretty good income.
I would sell my car. And we did sell one of our cars.
Yeah, the $35,000 one would go, too, before I sold my house. Yeah, yeah.
That's what, a $1,200 a month car payment? Actually, no, $760. Okay.
You got a good rate on that, too, then. Okay, good.
Yeah, but either way, I would be rid of that. That's $35,000 of the $250.
You've already made $36,000 progress. And, of course, every time we get rid of a payment, it increases the speed of your progress because you have more money freed up to attack the rest of the debts, working the debt snowball, right? Yes, yes.
It is upside down, like almost $15,000. How many times did you go out to eat last month? Quite a few.
We did get down a lot less. Yeah, yeah.
So that needs to be zero. You don't need to see the inside of a restaurant unless you're working there.
And you don't need to be on vacation. You called me about to sell your house because you're desperate about your debt, and yet you're going out to eat every night.
That's got to stop, girlfriend. Not every night.
You've got to stop. It's got to stop.
Going out to eat is entertainment. It is not nutrition.
Okay. You need got it.
You need to get on a beans and rice, scorched earth budget where your family thinks you've joined a cult. You need to go crazy before you talk about selling your house because you've got a good situation with this house.
And if you walk away from it because you won't curb in your other appetites, that would be a wrong set of choices. Yeah.
The advice I would give here is I would get every dollar, which is our amazing budgeting app and get control of your budget within the parameter that Dave just gave you. And here's the number you got to come to.
I wrote down, you said you're bringing home 9,500 per month. I would be looking to get the largest amount of money possible out of that $9,500 that you're putting towards debt per month.
And I'm just making this up, but start to think in terms of, could we put $3,000 a month towards debt? That's $36,000 a year. That's just out of your current income.
It needs to be more. I know, I know, but I'm saying you got to build up to what can I put in and you've got to put the max amount in.
And it doesn't feel then so large and insurmountable to where she's trying to go let's get the house yeah and get a lump sum and say no over the next two years or three years we can knock this out but we have to do this per month so Brenda another way of saying it is the only thing on the list of things you gave me that was smart was the house. Everything else was dumb.
And so we

don't want to lose the one smart thing for the dumb things without having pulled out all the stops to save the house as if your life depended on it. And so $4,000 a month, $5,000 a month, extra jobs, no vacations, no eating out no nothing nothing just eat pay the lights keep the water on work all the time and pay your bills and you'll get out of debt so fast it'll blow your mind how fast you can do this but it's going to still take three hard years of doing that and sell the stupid car and sell everything else.
It's in sight. Anything is sell so much stuff the kids think they're next.
The dog on eBay and the cat on Craigslist. I mean, move some stuff that that's you kind of got to get in that mindset where nothing matters.
And once you've done that for two years, if you run out of steam and you go, I can't do this anymore. I hate than i hate i hate this house now all this stuff i've had to do for it but you know you got pool you got solar panels both of which are going to bring squat when you get ready to resell this thing you're going to get burned again if you resell it so if i'm you i'm gonna roll up my sleeves and go after this with a vengeance and that's what changes everything.
Absolutely. It's that mindset to go, I can actually do this, but I've got to have a plan.
And that's why, again, the budget to understand how much money you've been spending. I love that immediately you went right to a very practical, how many times did you eat out last month? It's that idea of getting control of how much money we actually have to throw at this problem.
Then it doesn't become insurmountable. Yeah, this is doable.
Very. But because the great news is you've got a pretty decent shovel.
You got a really big hole, but you got a pretty decent shovel there. Can you resell solar panels? No.
Like reselling a computer. That's what I thought.
As soon as you plug it in, it's obsolete. The technology is moving so fast on them.
I've always wondered that. Five-year-old solar panels are what is known as dumpster food.
Because the quality of the technology today versus five years ago, same as an old computer, it's the same thing. And so that's why they're junk.
Solar panels are great if you can get about a five-year break even and if you pay cash for them, but not going into debt for them. Because you've got to make your money back in five years because at the end of the five years, they're going to be worthless.
They're going to be in the way. And, I mean, they'll still continue to produce something.
But in terms of the value added to your house, nah, not at all. This is The Ramsey Show.
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Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us.
Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Amanda is in Knoxville.

Hi, Amanda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hi, Dave and Ken. Thank you for taking my call.
Sure. I need your advice.
My husband and I are exhausted. So trying to figure out if maybe starting a business or working from home may be a better option for us.
We have about $89,000 in debt, and I work full-time, and I have an hour drive to work every day. And my husband works full-time, but he works a night shift from 10 at night until 6 in the morning, and we have two children.
My oldest has started kindergarten. So we had help with drop-off and pick-up with my mother-in-law, but she has had some health issues, and she can't drive right now.
So that's putting on me doing the bedtime routine and the drop-offs in the morning

and my husband waking up early to pick her up from school.

So we're just exhausted.

I don't know if that would be a good option for us

considering the amount of debt we have.

What do you make?

I make 57, but I'm set to get a raise starting October 1.

Okay. What do you do? I'm not sure about my husband.
I'm an account stable. Okay.
And what's your husband do? He works in a manufacturing plant. He drives a forklift.
Okay. What would be the business that you two would start? I'm presuming you guys have kicked around some ideas if you ask us that.
Well, it would be me.

I have some experience in grant writing,

and I always thought about doing that as a side hustle,

but then I'm thinking, well, maybe a business,

a full-time business might be a better option

so that I can take care of the kids and, you know. it's only a better option.
It's only a better option. I don't know what grant writers make.
I presume that you know, but it's only a better option if you're making the exact same amount of money or more with absolute opportunity to grow that. Other than that, you're just going to have to press through.
This is a tough season life you got debt to pay off well the other thing is you could just change jobs yeah but where you don't have an hour commute an hour commute in knoxville is unusual i live outside of knoxville i'm more towards north carolina but knox is my closest city. I have 30 minutes to the closest town.
I actually, and that's if I go straight to work. It's an hour drive.
I have to drop off one child at my mother's 30 minutes away and then to work and drop my mother off at work because she can't drive right now. So I'm actually, I want to have my morning commute and then pick up my one daughter on the way home.
So I was born in Tennessee. What, honey, what city are you in? Um, um, I address is Hartford where, yeah.
Okay. That's where the rafting companies are.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
All right. Well, the, the job that your husband has is replaceable in a day position, not an overnight, because he doesn't make a ton of money.
Your job is replaceable if you found something there that even if it paid less and you got two hours a day back, you could do grant writing as a side hustle. Yeah.
Okay. an hour uh is is part of what the problem is you're losing you're burning two hours a day just to go make fifty seven thousand dollars and um what you're telling me is is that that's not worth it and him being him working overnight just to make what's he making 25 bucks uh close to that yeah yeah.
And there's no reason to do night shift to make $25. You can make $25 at Target.
And get him back on a day clock and you on a day clock, that helps. Cut your commute down, that helps.
But jumping out and just declaring I am now in small business in a small town in the hills of East Tennessee suddenly and give up my – you're the major breadwinner in the place, give up the biggest share of your income and hope it works out. No, I'm not going to tell you to do that.
But I am with you that something has to change. Another thing that could change, and this is really painful, but you could move.

Because you're basically driving into Knoxville is what you're telling me.

Superior County, yes.

Yeah.

What would keep you from moving?

I heard your response to that as in, eh, it's not an option.

Why is that not an option?

Family land. That's great.
It's a little hard to chew that up and eat it. And right now you're having trouble eating, and you're calling me completely exhausted, ready to just throw yourself off of a career cliff and hope you hit a pad on the bottom.
No. So I think you guys got to put a whole bunch of anything's on the table until it's not him changing to a day job you all moving halfway between so you get some things back are you changing jobs to something there in your town but um you know like you said what the life that you've built you didn didn't build.
It has happened to you by default, and it's tearing your butt up, and you've got to change. So you've identified something's got to give.
And so my suggestion is that you decide what's going to give and that it's wise, meaning that you just quit a $57,000-a-year job because I'm worn out and go up a job and you end up making nothing? No. Open up a small business? No.
I would not recommend that to anyone. I would recommend you start your small business as a side hustle, but you don't have any time to do that right now in this current situation.
Yeah, it's fascinating to me, and not picking on Amanda at all because I've seen this so many times, this idea that proximity to family or some type of family land or some benefit that I perceive as a benefit tied to my family as one of the key reasons why my life is otherwise miserable is so backwards. And you've got to get to a point where you go, what must be true for my life to be better? And then you stop thinking, well, I have to figure it out in the terms of I got to be in your family or I got to live on this family land.
Everything's on the table when you're this tired. I agree.
It's quality of life. Bill is in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Hi, Bill. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.
I really appreciate it. Sure.
What's up? Got a quick question. My wife and I bought a spec house last year that was about 40% finished when we purchased it.
And so we had the opportunity to make changes and add things with signed change orders with the builder. And we ended up adding about $250K to the price as far as what we paid.
And then when we closed in December and the sale was recorded, it was recorded as the original sale price and didn't include any of the change orders we did. So I'm just wondering, is that accurate or can it include the change orders that we did? Why would you want them included? In most states, you record the deed based on the sale price, and that's going to increase your closing costs.
Well, I guess the reason was just that when we pay cash for the house, and so I was thinking at some point if we sell it, it would look better that we purchased it for XML as opposed to XML minus 250K. No, no, doesn't affect sale price at all.
What affects sale price when you get ready to sell it is the actual value of the house, which includes the 250K worth of stuff. So when you get ready to list it five years from now, you're going to say, this is so many square feet.
And by the way, we added all of these things to it when we bought it five years ago. And so it's a top of the market appliances or top of the market flooring or whatever it is you put in that increase those things.
And so make sure you're considering that when we decide what we're going to list it for. And also you let the appraiser know at that time, but what you paid for it or what the tax rolls show has nothing to do with the actual value.
I mean, case in point would be if you bought it at foreclosure for 50% of value, you know, that doesn't keep it from being valuable. It's still worth 100%, even though you bought it at 50% at a deal.
And in this case, it just recorded. No, it doesn't affect anything at all.
I wouldn't worry about it. Not a bit.
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Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you are here.
Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose and his new work, discovering or finding the work you're wired to do, which comes with the Get Clear assessment to help you figure out what your strengths are and where you need to head with your whole career and money-making endeavors. It's a great thing.

It's just hit a bunch of bestseller things this week, as a matter of fact.

Very cool.

Hey, the average interest rate for a 15-year mortgage dropped from 6 to 5.6 this week.

And the average this week, I'm sorry, fell to 5.15, the lowest we've seen since February

of 23. So almost 20- odd months now since we've seen an interest rate that low.
So if you purchase a $423,000 house with a 20% down payment on a 15-year, the interest rate change is the difference now of about $3,000, $4,000 a year is what it would save you. So, yeah, if you're financially ready, if you're out of debt, you have your down payment ready, and you have your emergency fund in place, we're huge on the real estate market, and this is the time to do it.
It's also a great time to sell because there's a shortage of inventory. So it's kind of a weird market in that way, but you need a good, strong real estate agent in your corner that knows what the flip they're doing.
High protein, high octane. So go to RamseySolutions.com slash agent, and you can find the real estate agent that's Ramsey trusted that we have vetted in your area.
So there we go. Open phones at 888-825-5225 Nicole is in Jacksonville hi Nicole how are you good how are you better than I deserve what's up okay so um me and my husband are about to bring a baby into the world in January next year and congratulations you.
He's had this credit card with his mom that he's been having for, like, the past basically year and a half. But she basically has, like, joint ownership of his, like, account and stuff like that because he's in the military.
So, like, when he first got in, he was like, oh, well, well you're gonna oversee everything um just make sure like my bills are paid and stuff like that but she opened up her credit card and she's running up like fourteen thousand dollars since then and um every time I try to talk to him about it like hey like what's going on with this like um you know is she gonna take care of it now that we're bringing a baby into the world? I'm concerned. And, like, every time she'll ask him about it, like, she completely, like, gets angry or upset and cries because she has lupus.
And she has, like, a lot of medical bills, too. So we're not really sure how to ask her.
How long have you been married? We've been married for a year and a half. Mm-hmm.
Okay. And what does he make? So pretty fresh.
What does he make and what do you make? He makes like $55,000 a year. Mm-hmm.
And me, I'm a student, so I'm still in school and everything, because I work part-time. How old are you two? How old are you two? I'm 22 and he's 23.
Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Stop. You don't have a mother-in-law problem.
You have a husband problem. Okay.
So hubby has got to decide now that there's a new woman in his life that's not his mother.

In the old days, people would say things like, when you get married, you leave your parents and cleave to your spouse.

Leave and cleave, we called it.

And there's a boundary drawn.

There's a new household has been established a year and a half ago, and now it has a baby entering it. Okay, and we're not going to blame any of this on the baby.
We're going to blame all of this on your husband. The day you all got married, it was his job as a man to separate all of his accounts from his mother.

This is very boyish, not manly behavior that he's engaging in.

And so if I'm in your shoes, I'm going to sit down very calmly, and I don't care if his mom cries, I'm and I don't care I'm sorry she has lupus

but the reason she's crying is because she's ashamed and because it works on her little boy

so we're going to have to help your husband run down to Walmart and pick up a backbone they're

on aisle three and then he's going to walk in there very calmly and gently and say mom

now that I'm married and I have my own family we're not going to have any more joint account

Thank you. and then he's going to walk in there very calmly and gently and say mom now that i'm married and i have my own family we're not going to have any more joint accounts so everything is being closed today and you're going to reopen your own accounts mom and you need to pay this fourteen thousand dollars you ran up on this credit card okay and if she doesn't you'll have to because it's got your husband's name on it this is a mistake that he has made and it may cost him and you fourteen thousand dollars because i got a feeling this woman's not going to pay this don't you yeah yeah and you're not to be involved at all you'll become the wicked you'll become the wicked daughter-in-law it'll be all your fault because this woman is a travel agent for guilt trips okay yeah every time i like try to like talk to her but no no no don't you ever say a word about this again.
But your husband, he needs to throw his shoulders back and become a man. Today.
Today. This is weak and fearful behavior.
He needs to become courageous, bold, gentle with his mom. There's no reason to be mean to her.
He's the one entered into this arrangement. But it does need to be very thorough and complete immediately.
It's absurd that a man that is married and has a baby on the way has joint accounts with his mommy. That's ridiculous.
Okay? You can play this back for him if you want. He needs to square his shoulders and walk in there.
I don't want him to be unkind to his mom, but it was his duty the week before you got married to separate everything. When my kids were getting married, we sat down two weeks before I transferred every single mutual fund that was theirs, every single checking account or piece of savings that was theirs completely out of our name.
And if they went and did something stupid with it the next day, that's on them because they're now what's known as grown up adults. And so it'm it's not my job anymore to manage them they are now free agents they're grown people and you don't you don't even have to get married to do that but that happened to be the when we made sure that everything was final because i did not want to be interfering with my in my daughter's in-law son's in-law just like nicole situation this is happening more and more yeah i i the um but the emotional umbilical cord needs to be cut and this is the reason why is because the lupus she's my mom she did this she's done that and you cannot think rationally when you were thinking emotionally you cannot have a rational thought at the same time that you have an emotional thought.
And this tie together, he's never going to act rational until the clear cut has happened. And I really would recommend that he watch this so that he realizes you're not the bad person.
And you don't be pissed if somebody be pissed at me. It's like a spiritual gift I have.
I'm fine with that. Yeah.
Cut the cord. There's entire Reddit pages devoted to doing that.
So you can comment sections of everything. By the way, this is only going to get worse.
I want the young man to hear. Every day this goes on.
It's going to get worse. Every day this goes on.
And we're not even going to blame this on the baby. Oh, no.
Not the baby. This is something that should have been done before there was a baby.
Well, I'll tell you, it's the big baby. I'm blaming it on the big baby.
Not the baby in the womb. who has yet to mature yeah uh and by the way mom enabled this so there's enough blame to go around able it she manipulated she wanted it she likes this he was a mama's boy to go to the military and say mom pay my bills yep yep i'm not blaming that all on him yep we got to let these let these kids fly, folks.
Kick them out of the nest.

That's what the birds do.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's, um, this is a national problem to your point.

It's a real problem.

It's a real problem.

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Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Today's Ramsey Network app question comes from the Ramsey Network app, obviously.
If you don't know what that is, you can download that app for free, and you get this entire show every day on video and audio, so you can turn it into a podcast or a video watch, whatever you want. The last segment of this show every day is available only on the Ramsey Network app.
So be sure and do that. And you can do stuff like ask a question there, which is what happened here.
Taryn sent us a question, Ken. My husband and I just had a healthy baby girl in July and are transitioning out of stork mode and back into gazelle intensity.
In preparation for the hospital bills, we were maxing out our HSA and have used nearly all of that money on covering those bills. I'm nervous to stop contributing to the HSA and having no funds for a medical emergency to at least cover our deductible.
Can you please ease my worries and explain why HSA contributions should also stop? Because all savings stops when you're in gazelle intensity mode. That's why.
Medical, car repair, everything. We're walking out on the $1,000 tight wire, and we're going to get in attack mode and clean this stuff up.
But you do need to finish up whatever you're doing through the HSA with medical bills, and I don't even get any problem with that, with this particular set of medical bills. But the HSA is an emergency fund only for a medical emergency.
It doesn't cover other emergencies. And so it's like a part-time emergency fund, a partial emergency fund.
And we don't fund that until we get to baby step three. And so, no, I would not do that.
Now, the exception, no, there's not an exception. I just would not do that.
I'm trying to think through. No, nope, nope, simple, simple.
Jacob is in Louisville, Kentucky. Hi, Jacob.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave.
Hi, Ken. Ken, how are you all doing? Better than we deserve.
What's up? All Hi, so my wife and I, we have a long-term goal to purchase some land outside of Louisville and to build a cabin on it and just make that our full-time home. Makes it close to church and keeps us away from, honestly, the city, which we so desperately want.
But we're trying to see how we can financially do that. We found some land we'd like.

We have a price on it. We know how much the house would be to build on it.

But I just don't know if we're in a financial spot to do it.

What's the total package? Land and cabin right now?

Sure. Yeah.
So land is $80,000. I think I can get them down to $70,000, but we'll say $80,000.

And then house is $330,000.

Okay, so let's call it $400,000. Okay.
Do you own a home currently? Yes. And what is it worth? It's worth $225,000.
Okay. Is it paid for? I have $150,000 left on the mortgage.
Okay. So you get $70,000 from that if you sell it as a down payment on your cabin and land of $400,000.
So you would take out a mortgage of $330,000 in that case, am I right? Yes. Okay.
And what's your household income? Collectively around $150,000. Okay.
So can you take out a $330,000 15-year fixed-rate mortgage at 5% today and it be about a fourth of your take-home pay? I don't think you can. Can you? No.
No. I don't think so.
That's what we're thinking, and tell me if I'm being dumb, which I probably am, to purchase the land, pay it off, and then sell our home. No, it doesn't change anything.
No. You can just save up the money to buy land and then sell your home.
It's the same exact thing. Are you out of debt other than the house? We have a car loan that's going to go away here in the next week.
It'll be done. Then you need to build your emergency fund, and then you need to be putting 15% away for retirement and start saving for land.
But you're not ready to do this deal today. You can't afford it.
Gotcha. We have 30 already saved up.
Does that change anything on there? Well, where's your emergency fund? We have about 20,000 in mutual funds and 30,000 in savings. Okay.
All right. So how much of your 50,000 should be your emergency fund? Which that would cover what and all of that? Three to six months of expenses.
Okay. 20,000.
Okay. All right.
And so you've got 30,000 then to put between the two things. You'd cash out the mutual fund.
You have 30,000 to put towards it. So now instead of 70, we're putting down a hundred.
When your down payment is enough that your house payment becomes a fourth of your take-home pay, we're fine with that. And then you go get a construction loan that buys the land and builds the cabin.

You may need to rent for a little while while you're doing that and get your house sold.

You may have to move twice to make this work.

But you've got to get that mortgage amount down to where your house payments no more than a fourth of your take-home pay on a 15-year fixed.

And so your take-home pay is what, $8,000, $9,000?

Yes. Okay.
If we call it $10,000, $9,000? Yes.

Okay.

If we call it $10,000, you can take a $2,500 house payment as an example, right?

Okay, right.

And I don't think that's going to support a $330,000 mortgage,

but as you save more money, you're going to get in a position to do that.

So it may be this particular piece of land gets away.

But if you go buy the land now and finance it, you're going to slow down the speed at which you pull this off. Because you've got more debt then to support while you're trying to do all this savings.
So be careful that you don't do your dreams, Jacob, in such a way that they become a nightmare. And so let's just slow down.
You'll get there. Or let's change the house plan.
Build less house on this land. Or let's change the construction process where it doesn't cost as much.
I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about building on this acreage.
But, you know, I think you went shopping for a house or for a piece of land before you were ready. And now you got land fever.
Yeah. I remember getting land fever when we first moved here.
It's dangerous to keep going and looking at land when you're not ready. Just wait till you're ready.
There you go. It's hard.
Acknowledge that. That's hard.
Chris is in Tampa. Hi, Chris.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, guys.
Thanks for taking my call.

Sure.

What's up? So I have two homes. One is a rental and one is my primary.
The rental has become more than I want to deal with in my life, so much for passive income, right? And I've decided to sell it. And I guess my question is, I have a financial advisor I work with who's done really well for me throughout my life.
And he thinks that it would be in my best interest to take the proceeds from the rental and, you know, invest the money. Um, the proceeds will probably be about $150,000-ish.

But I feel like I should take the money and pay down my primary mortgage.

You are right. Your financial advisor is wrong.

And why do you say that?

Because as we studied millionaires, 10,000 of them in the largest study of millionaires ever done, we found that they had two primary things that made them wealthy, steadily investing in their retirement plans, like 401ks and good mutual funds, okay, and getting their home paid off. The typical millionaire that we run into, say they had a million and a half, million eight net worth, something like that, the first stage of millionaire status.
They're sitting on a four or five, $600,000 paid for house, and they got four or five, 600,000 bucks in their 401k. Very, very few of them became millionaires by investing with their financial advisor while keeping debt on their home.
Because essentially, from a balance sheet perspective, what you stumbled into with with your direction chris is that it's as if you've borrowed on your home to invest and you would never do that correct yeah because by not paying it down and instead investing it has the exact same mathematical effect as having borrowed on your home in order to invest.

And that would be ludicrous from a risk management standpoint, because now you're putting your home at risk to play footsie with something your advisor wants to do.

No, thank you.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

I wanted to hear what you guys thought.

I had a feeling you were going to say that.

Yeah, I'm fairly predictable.

I've been saying the same thing over and over and over again for a long time.

My pastor told me the day, he goes, you say the same thing over and over. And I said, so do you.
Well played. That's a great point.
For 30 years. Yeah.
It's very predictable. But it turns out that the data actually backs up this idea of being debt-free is one of the key elements of wealth.
That's right. It's undisputable.
There we go. It's called data.
Yeah, it's a fact. Those whole fact things.
Facts get in the way of all this feelings. This is the Ramsey Show.
Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships.

Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today.

Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Elliot is going to start this hour off in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Hey, Elliot, what's up?

Hey, how are you guys doing? Better than we deserve. How can we help? Well, thank you guys for what you do.
My parents became millionaires just following your guys' plan. I'm calling because my brother-in-law, he's a little younger than me.
He's 24. He's a pretty successful guy, crazy.
Um, but he's starting to get caught up in a peer to peer lending program. Um, that unfortunately another family friend is talking him into.
Um, I know I can't, you know, just kind of be like, this is stupid and ended at that. Um, do you guys have any advice? How do I talk to him about this? Cause he's trying to make sure it's legit, but he also just keeps getting further into it.
Well, I mean, the only way you can convince someone is to the extent of the quality of your relationship with them. So if you have a deeper relationship with him than this family friend, then you've got the ability to get between them.
But if you have a casual relationship with him that's about equal to the family friend, you're probably not going to be successful at this. In order to hold someone accountable and smack them in the back of the head, you have to get your arm around their shoulder.
Yeah, that's there. It starts with a hug.
So, I mean, those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still. I've had very little luck in my life answering questions that people didn't ask.
He has asked. Oh, good.
Which is cool. He called you and asked you about this.
Yeah, he was talking with me about it, and I was like, there's a lot of red flags going up, man. And so he's just been sending me things about it, and I've been.
Is he trying to sell you and joining it? No, I think he's just trying to sell himself and kind of prove he can out-discuss me on it. Well, now you've got him in a good spot.
Well, that's okay then. That's good.
Yeah, so I think that, you know, your best shot for persuasion is in person, in private. You don't want to embarrass him in front of your sister that he's married to, I think, or your wife is his sister.
I don't know, whichever it is that he's brother-in-law. But, yeah, so no embarrassment.
This is not going to be over a dinner with the gals, and you start. But basically what I would do is not call him stupid.
What I found is that the stuff that I did that was really stupid when I was 24 came from trying to find a shortcut. I was trying to find a way to get rich quick.
And it's very humorous to think about that loaning money to broke people, broke people loaning money to broke people is going to cause you to get wealthy. That's what peer-to-peer lending is.
It's even funnier than that because he's borrowing to lend to the peer-to-peer, but he's, like, really successful for his age. Like, I think he could easily retire in, like, 10, 20 years if he wanted to.
Yeah, but he's not successful in this. He's successful because he's ambitious and a hard worker, and he looked over here and went, oh, this may look on the outside like it doesn't work, but I'm smart enough.
I can do this. That's what I did, and that's how I lost my butt.
Yeah. Elliot, I jump in real quick to say, I think since he's opened the door to you and your first response was red flags, I think you've got to go back just as Dave said, one-on-one and say, Hey, I've done my research.
And let me tell you what the data says that the risks are. And I would, in this case, play to the natural real real fear to the actual high-risk situation.
This is not a manipulation. This stuff is really, really risky.
Start talking about the psychological and the relationship stuff. Start talking about it's not an actual good investment strategy compared to, and start showing like the Ramsey.
Go to our website. It's basically loaning money to people no one else will loan money to.
Yeah, you've got to make the case. Make the case.
It's kind of dumb. But it's got to be data-based, right? And say, man, this is risky.
Here's why. And the other thing I would do is I would appeal to him to say, okay, let's study wealthy people.
How many of them used shortcuts to get there? They really don't. They use their innate work ethic and go-getter mentality.
In other words, I think, Elliot, that your brother-in-law's secret sauce is him, not that he hasn't found the right thing to accelerate it yet. He's the secret sauce.
I want him to hear from you that you think he's amazing and that this is a total waste the it'd be a waste of his time he he's gonna get he's got the ability to go far and go fast if he stays away from things like this yeah because of who he is so you've got this admiration of him until he lost his mind on this one thing right yeah yeah pretty much i'm looking at him like man you've been doing so well up to this i would say that over and over and over again his secret sauce yeah his secret sauce is him he's the secret sauce it's not that he needs to find some you know the multi-level people all go you need to find a vehicle no you don't you're the vehicle you know i need to find i need to find a vehicle. No, you don't.
You're the vehicle. You know, I need to find, I need to find a system.
No, you don't. You're the system.
Live on lesson you make and save money. Work your butt off.
That's the system. And that's the one that the wealthy people use.
They don't go, Oh, I found a Bitcoin there. We look at that.
It made it easy. Ooh, I found an algorithm where I can do lotto tickets.
No, you didn't. Okay.
And so, I mean, this is what get rich quick is based on. That's right.
It is based on desperation or greed. Yeah.
And it always, in either case, requires a level of pride. And pride is what comes right before you fall.
I did every one of these stupid butt things. Every part of my story of losing everything in my 20s is because of those exact things.
Because I thought I could do nothing down, flip real estate, and get away with it because I was so smart. And everyone that does that eventually goes completely freaking broke um all the guys that did it when i did it are all either out of the business or they paid off their debt one of the two they either went broke doing nothing down flipped this house before there was chip and joanna they weren't even born yet okay and so this but it's this stuff has been around forever but it's it's all desperation or greed in your brother-in-law's case it's greed that's right not not filthy greed like horrible nasty person greed just like i think i can do this because i'm smarter than the average cat the rules don't apply to me because i'm smart and i work hard and i'm ahead of the game.
There's something about all of these things that I want to make sure the audience catches what Dave said earlier. Every shortcut that exists always requires you to suspend common sense.
And the reason it does is because you feel like it's that emotional, I figured out the hack and I'm going to short circuit the system. And so your emotion takes over.
So the law of gravity doesn't apply to me. Exactly.
That's emotion. Flap your arms, boy.
You're about to hit the sidewalk. Law of gravity applies.
Boom. Put your helmet on.
Little print right there on the sidewalk. I know, man.
That's exactly what I did. You know, I understand.
I understood intellectually the dangers of leverage, but I thought I could beat it. That's the classic example.
Flap your dadgum arms and hit the sidewalk. That's it, man.
The law of gravity does not apply to me. This is the Ramsey Show.
All right, Dave, you have some strong opinions. Possibly, yeah.
I think so. Because you really prefer credit unions over big banks.
So why is that? Well, credit unions, for one thing, are non-profit, which means that the members, the customers, own the credit union. So any profits that the credit union makes goes back into customer pricing.
So you get better interest rate on savings, cheaper checking, and so on, that kind of thing. But what's more important than that, though, is the fact that the customer is the owner changes the spirit on the credit union.
So I find very few credit unions that aren't very customer-centric. Yes.
Well, and I think we have found one that is incredible, and that's Fairwinds. They are an incredible credit union that is really out with the heart to help the customer.
You know, that's why we're partnering with them, because they've got a scope to be able to handle the Ramsey audience, and they're the right kind of people with the right kind of values. And they've done a really, really good job with customer service.
And the deals that they're offering, the Ramsey Tribe is incredible. Yeah, absolutely.
And you're right, their customer service is unbelievable. Winston and I just signed up and we got an account.
And I'm not kidding. It took less than five minutes.
It was so user-friendly. The step-by-step approach was unbelievable.
And then the next day my phone rings and it says Fairwinds on my phone.

So I answered it and talked to someone there and they said, yeah, they give calls to every new customer.

And so again, they just really care about your experience.

And I so, so appreciate that.

So again, you guys, I know it can be a pain

to switch banks or to open up new accounts,

but Fairwinds, again, they make it so easy.

Plus anything that you can do at a traditional branch, you can do with them at fairwinds.org or on their app, and you'll have free access to over 33,000 ATMs. Hey, you guys know how much I hate banks in general, and so for me to do this is a big deal.
Talk to our friends at Fairwinds and check out the combined checking and savings bundle that they created just for the Ramsey tribe. You guys, it's incredible.
Yeah, you guys, it's so easy to join Fairwinds no matter where you live. So go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey to learn more.
That's F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S dot org slash Ramsey. I talk to people every day who want to know how to do better in two areas, money and relationships.
That's why I'm pumped to bring the money and relationships tour to a city near you. Join me and Dr.
John Deloney for a night that will challenge the way you think about this stuff and possibly change how you live forever. Starting April 21st, we'll be in Louisville, then on to Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City.
Grab your tickets at RamseySolutions.com slash tour before they're gone. Ken Coleman, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today, number one best-selling author.
The best way to make the most of your money is by doing it on purpose. Most people don't win with their money because we can't get them to do it on purpose.
If you will simply make the money that you have behave and go towards your goals, you will start hitting your goals. But most people kind of wander along half asleep and then wake up at retirement going, oh man, oh man, hope the government, which is well known for its ability to handle money, will take care of me.

Bad idea.

You need a plan.

A plan monthly is called a budget.

The best budgeting app on the planet is called EveryDollar because you give every dollar an assignment.

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Download the EveryDollar budgeting app for free in the App Store.

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What's up? Every dollar. It's free in the App Store or Google Play.
Check it out. And of course, you can click the link in the description if you're

listening on YouTube or a podcast. We'll take you straight in there.

Josh is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Josh.
How are you? I'm anxious, Dave. How are you? Oh, okay.
Better than I deserve. What's up? Well, my wife is a contract worker.
She's doing HR recruiting, and the contract that she's with is slowing down dramatically to the point where signs are on the walls that she may be losing her job in the next month or two. We are pushing hard to get out of debt, have a medical loan from earlier this year that we are hoping to be paid off by the end of this year, but our concern is with the proposed incoming doom on the horizon, should we forego hitting debt hard to switch to, oh no, we need to start saving for a few months.
What I can't tell here is you gave a lot of metaphors and dramatic things, but no one has ever said anything to her about this other than she's observing things around her and feels like this is coming to a close. I think she needs to go in and get some actual input from the leadership team.
So the leadership team has told them that with the way things are slowing down, they don't know how much longer their contract is going to be valid for. But I would have another follow-up question to that.
Okay, so how long is the current contract going to last? In other words, is this a reset or whoever's paying that contract can close that contract out at any time? I just get really detailed on that. But real quick, Josh, I would immediately, if I was in your situation and it was my wife in her situation, I would have her immediately looking for a replacement work.
I wouldn't necessarily pause on the debt elimination. I'd get real aggressive to have some options out there while having this conversation.
Yeah, let me tell you this. If this is bad enough that you need to stop all progress in your financial plan and pile up cash because she's going to lose her job, then she needs to go get another job right now.
Is it that bad? It's's starting to see that they did a massive man you are hedging all over this year you sound like a worrier i can't tell if you're worrying or if this is really happening uh starting to no it's not it either is this bad enough that she's ready to quit her job and go get another one it's bad enough that we ended up going to urgent care due to stress-related illnesses yesterday. Okay, then happen to this situation.
Yeah, then don't stand around and wait on this to happen to you. Be proactive.
Yes, stop everything, start piling up cash, and put her in an aggressive job hunt. She needs a new job in two weeks.

And then she needs to quit and take the new job.

No discussing this.

This is hard, cold break.

These people have said, we're about to poop on you.

So dodge the poop.

Okay?

Fair enough.

I mean, get after it. They told you it's coming.
Dodge. I'm telling you.
When I hear about a storm coming, I start to make adjustments to the storm. We don't go, well, it could hit us, it may not.
If it's dangerous, and this is dangerous financially, address it. Get out in front of it.
Ken and I are the two guys standing in the front yard watching the tornado keep that in mind that is true i i that was the right that's both of us all right just just keep in mind that's who you're talking i am ready but i'm waiting till the last still get out of the way yeah olay right i never worry about dave when a storm is coming because i know he's right where he is he's no right i'm gonna be right going to be walking right straight into it. Jennifer is in New York.
Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.
Hi, Dave. Hi, Ken.
I love you guys. I'm hoping that you can help me with an issue.
My husband and I would like to purchase a one acre lot of land, but it's currently owned by a dissolved LLC. And there is an $87,000 tax lien on it owned by the town, which exceeds the value of the land, which is most likely between 30 to 50,000.
I have reached out to a couple of lawyers and they have let me know this is beyond their scope. They've never seen like a weird situation weird situation like this.
And I thought, who better to help me than the two? You can't get a clear title unless the tax lien's cleared. So unless the town will accept value, appraised value, you're about to overpay for this piece of ground.
No thank you. Right.
So is this in New York State? This is in New Jersey. In New Jersey, okay.
Okay. Right.
So I do, is this in New York state?

This is in New Jersey.

In New Jersey.

Okay.

Some states, I don't know about New Jersey, sell tax liens to individuals. They auction them off and you buy them not for the amount of the tax lien, but less than

the amount of the tax lien.

And then you can take that tax lien and foreclose on the property and have clear title. So if Jersey sells tax liens, Tennessee does not.
If you were in Tennessee, you would have to go into the city municipality, go in to talk to the, if it's a small town, the mayor. Otherwise, you talk to the tax assessor and say uh you have more owed on this property than it is worth when you foreclose you're not going to get all of the tax stuff out of this uh can we negotiate down to actual appraisal and then you got to figure out why the current people that gave up and walked away would bother to sign because they're not going to get anything out of this.
Right. I don't think you're getting this piece of land, probably.
It's probably a whole lot more trouble than it's worth, sounds to me like. But it's worth poking around and learning about, I guess, if you're interested in it.
Quick research says you can do it in the tax. It does allow for it in New Jersey.
I don't know what the process is you can do it you can buy a tax lien they do allow that okay well talk to the city and find out what you do to buy that tax lien if you buy the tax if you buy the tax lien then you foreclose on the tax lien the former owner would have to pay you eighty seven thousand dollars you paid sixty for it okay and they would have to pay you $87,000 to stop your foreclosure. Now, the other thing you need to learn about then, Jennifer, and if you want to

keep typing in there, Ken, you can, does this have a right of redemption? Some tax liens have a two

year right of redemption. So you could go through all this foreclose and they can come back anytime

during that two years or one year or whatever the right of redemption is and redeem it. Okay, the owner of a property or legally interested party may redeem at any time as long as foreclosure has not begun.
Okay, that's not a right of redemption. And that just stops the foreclosure.
Okay, but after foreclosure, some of them have an additional and you need to make sure of that. So what I would talk to, Jennifer, is if you're going to go buy the tax lien, before you do that, talk to a title company about what it's going to take for you to get clean title and buy title insurance.
Okay. Okay.
But my guess is if you can buy the $87,000 title, what's the property worth? It's probably only worth $30,000 to $50,000. Why are you interested in it? So it is a lot that is directly next to our property.
It was from a builder who actually built our house on one acre, and then he, I think, went bankrupt during the process. Sold off a bunch of the land to the town, but they must have had an oversight

and not realized that this piece of land

didn't transfer to the town.

So we're trying to purchase this.

Perfect.

Yeah, I would go in and try to buy the tax lien

for less than the value of the property

and then do the foreclosure.

Or if the builder will just sign it over to you as a favor

and waive any rights of redemption,

you can have clear title tomorrow.

But you don't want to pay $87 for for 30. This is the Ramsey show.
Listen, guys, I've heard just about every excuse for why folks think they can't get ahead with money. So let's go ahead and settle this right now.
The truth is you get to decide what happens with your money. And if you want to start winning with money, you have to get on a budget.
The every dollar budget app makes it easy for you to plan every dollar you've got coming in and every dollar going out. Plus it's free.
So no more excuses. Go download every dollar in the app store or Google play today.
Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host. We invite you to stop by and hang out in the Ramsey Solutions lobby anytime you want.
We do this show from 1 to 4 Central Time every day, and we can come in and sit down for free. We've got homemade chocolate chip cookies and coffee.
It's all on us. Smells like Mama's Kitchen in here, not corporate America.
And we've usually got 50 to a couple of hundred folks sitting around

watching us do the show and they can hear the show and all that. Also in the lobby, we have a

little stage that we call the debt-free stage. On the debt-free stage is Quincy.
Hi, Quincy. How

are you? Good. How are you, Mr.
Ramsey? How are you, Mr. Coleman? Good.
Better than we deserve,

sir. Where do you live? I live in St.
Louis, Missouri. Very cool.
Well, welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you paid off, Quincy? Paid off $55,000.
Good for you. How long did that take? 36 months.
Good for you. And your range of income during that three years? $24,000 to $85,000.
Good for you. What do you do for a living? I'm a business consultant.
Good. Very good.
All right. What kind of debt was the $55,000? It was a rental property and two cars.
You paid off a rental property for $55,000? I did. Sounds like a fine piece of property.
So the rental property, I had $11,000 left on it. And the two vehicles, I had a truck, which was worth $15,000 at the time.
More than the rental property. More than the rental property.
And then I had my Cadillac, which I had just purchased at the beginning of that year before when I started my debt-free journey, that was around $29,000. Okay.
So what's the story? What happened? How'd you run into Ramsey and what made you decide to clean all of this up in just 36 months? Cause you leaned in man. Congratulations.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
So before I even knew a financial peace university or Ramsey solutions, we were on the same page and I didn't even know it before. In high school, I had a negative experience with debt, with credit cards.
And so when I moved out of my mom's house, that's when all of that came to light and paying off those two credit cards that I had no control over at the time, it really frustrated me. And so I started learning about finances and APR and interest rates right out of high school, entering into college.
And then I didn't like college. So I had, thankfully I had got a scholarship.
I gave that back and I decided to join the military to just give me some stability until I decided to, to do what I wanted to do next. And so when I joined the military,

they sent me to El Paso, Texas.

And the home church that I found in El Paso offers FPU.

And so I learned more about Ramsey Solutions

and learned more about financial literacy

when I started FPU.

And from there, I mean, my coordinator, Mr. Carlos and his wife, Mr.
Carlos is with us today, but they were spiritual mentors. They were financial accountability partners to me.
And they led me through the course and I learned so much more. So what branch of the military? Army.
And how old were you when you landed in El Paso? I was 20. Wow.
20. Thanks for serving our country.
Yes, thank you. And thank you, God, for setting a mentor like Mr.
Carlos right on a 20-year-old young dude in the army. Completely changed the trajectory of your life, didn't they? Most definitely.
Yeah, that church. Way to go.
What church is this? Hope City Community Church in El Paso, paso texas way to go hope city you're living out your name baby you just laid out and you laid out hope right here and did it that's exactly what's supposed to happen that's exactly right wow you love somebody enough to get all up in their life and help them change the whole trajectory of everything and because you're looking at stuff that they're bringing you going oh man oh man yeah i can just see what i can see it happening wasn't it most definitely yes sir man i love this that's powerful that's powerful dude you got a debt to pay back to young guys later on you got to be mr carlos the rest of your life man you. This is awesome.
I love it. I love it too.
So what was the most difficult adjustment after you? So you're watching FPU, you're engaged in the class, and here you are, a young guy in the military, probably surrounded by a lot of other young guys with the first time they've ever had any money in their pocket. Most definitely.
What was the big challenge for you to begin to adjust your lifestyle after you learned all this? After, well, it wasn't much of adapting to the principles because these are all godly principles and I grew up in the church. So that part I understood and I was very excited for.
What I really needed to adjust with was making sure that I stayed focused speaking that there were young people around me and even older people around me we're talking sergeants or you know sergeant first class sergeant majors that are are stunting so to speak like they they have everything together and me sitting over here eating on beans and rice yep and what when I I found out what moonlighting was, I became a travel CNA. I got that certification while I was in the military and I got the document signed by my commander.
And because of that, I was able to work overnight shifts, which were, you know, that helped. And that's what allowed me to be able to go full force with paying off my vehicle at the time.
It jumped my income up as well as when I started my business after I got out the military. How old now? I'm 25.
How does it feel to be free, man? It feels great. You've got to feel so empowered.
You've got to feel like you've got muscle. Well, it's not just's not just that mr ramsey but it's more so i have a responsibility to pass it forward yeah that's what i yeah i've already called that out yes yeah but i'm just saying you you're you're incredible i'm so proud of you well done what a sharp young dude man glory to god yeah amen glory to god mr carlos and that, that's good stuff right there.
That's the way it's supposed to be. So, um, you got a young private out there left home for the first time, doesn't know squat.
He's listening to us right now. What do you tell him? Well, I would tell that private specifically to, to live below their means and to make sure that they understand who they are.
And if they don't know who they are, focus on who they are and whose they are, because that ultimately will help them not have to feel that pressure and that burden of living like everyone else. Yeah, because it's not worth it.
Shoot, you nailed it right there. One of the things we find among people that are able to build wealth, and you discovered it and are walking in it, and you just gave that same advice back, is that you have to lose the need to impress others.
Yes, sir. When you quit caring what other people think, building wealth becomes very easy because you really need, you spend almost no time on Instagram.
Very true. Because you don't care what anybody thinks.
You're not posting, look at me, look at me, look at me, because you don't care what people think. I'm on beans and rice.
I'm going to get my overnight. I'm going to get my CNA.
I'm going to jack this to $84,000 a year. I'm going to get done here in 36 months.
Mic drop, man. You're incredible.
Very cool. Very cool, man.
Neat, neat story. I love it, Quincy quincy very very well done all right so um that advice you would just teach them to yeah that's good advice very good advice what am i missing uh nothing i just think i think if you're going to uh share for people what it feels like now on the other side of this you're about ready to do your debt.
In about 20 seconds, what does it feel like now as you're looking at your future? It feels bright is such an understatement. I was purposeful before, but it's even more empowering.
And it feels like that I'm creating a legacy and breaking generational curses like never before. Is the American dream live and well to you? It is live and well.
Yeah. Thanks again for your service.
Proud of you. Way to go to that church and to Mr.
Carlos. And that's just beautiful.
By the way, he's here, right? Is that Mr. Carlos right there? This is Mr.
Carlos. And then this right here is Mr.
Allen. Mr.
Allen, thankfully, was able to make it because he lives here in Franklin, Tennessee, but he's the one that sold me my first house at 19 years old.

Oh, very cool.

That's fun.

Good, good.

Way to go.

All right, Quincy from St. Louis, $55,000 paid off.

What a great story.

In 36 months, making 24 to 85.

Count it down.

Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Three, two, one. I'm debt-free.
Yeah. That is what you call transformation.
He will not go back. He will not.
Well done. This is The Ramsey Show.
Hey, guys. George Camel here.
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Might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Andre in Indiana.
I'm being managed out of my job at my current employer. When I realized what was happening, I got ahead of it and have turned in my resignation, so I won't have a termination on my employment record.
I have several interviews lined up, and I'm not worried about finding another position. My question is, how should I approach obtaining a letter of reference from my current employer should I need it? Well, you're going to approach it now before you leave the building, number one.
Number two, you're going to approach it with some gratitude and humility and just say, hey, I appreciate this opportunity to be here, and I would love if you feel comfortable being a reference for me and give me a reference letter upon request. Are you comfortable with that? It's just a man-to-man conversation or man-to-woman conversation, and that's about all you can do there.
Hopefully, you've left well. We don't know what the situation here is, but I'm such a proponent for people leaving well.

Even if you feel like you're not supposed to be there anymore, even if you feel like you've got some tension, you feel like maybe it wasn't the best situation for you, leaving well and not burning that bridge is always the right way to go because you have to assume that any future employer is going to call your past employer. And so humility and gratitude in class would be the three ingredients in the ask.
And by the way, with every remaining second you have at that place before you leave, act with class. Yeah.
Smile, act with class, do everything. So, um, most employers, Andre, do not give references on formers because of the liability.
Um, and so we don't, if someone calls here, all the only thing we'll confirm is that they worked here between this date and that date. And that's the only thing we'll tell you.
We won't say whether they're awesome. I didn't realize that.
That's good for me to know. I did not.
I've heard of that. I didn't know that.
Because we don't want to get sued. Right.
Because we referred them or told somebody, you know, this guy, he wasn't good. Right.
And then you turn around and you get all this other stuff on you.

So, yeah, we just – and that's not that unusual in the employment market, we've learned.

But when we're trying to check references, it's tough to get people to actually give you a reference.

I want to sidestep, Ken. I want you to coach for a second here, and I want to join you in it.

Let's pretend that Andre – I'm going to make up something for Andre. I don't know anything about him, so this is all pretend.
Sure. Okay.
Let's pretend he's 26, and this is his second job, and he says, I'm being managed out of my job. Now, if you were working at Ramsey, we don't manage people out of a job.
We do manage them if they're not competent. We're going to talk to you about it and help you work on your competence.
We do manage you and talk to you about it and create uncomfortable conversations if you're not handling your relationships with others inside the building well if you're being a twerp okay and so um being the being the potential employer of someone in this situation uh i i wouldn't take the position i'm being managed Yeah. Unless you've got a pure political situation going on.
I mean, just because someone tells you to suck it up, Buttercup, and get better, that is not being managed out. That's correct.
So if I were coaching Andre, I would ask a lot of detailed questions. What does that actually mean? Yeah.
And to the best of my ability, be able to discern, well, you're not being managed out, or maybe you are. Now, what it's going to look like in this case, if we're assuming what he's saying, is that someone is basically being, making you as uncomfortable as possible, not in a way of leading you for growth and having an uncomfortable conversation with your growth in mind, but actually being a turd to you to get you to quit because they don't want to fire you? Does that happen? It does.
But in this case, that's bad leadership. So I would be asking enough questions to find out what's really going on.
And to your point, if they are holding you to a standard that they hired you to keep, you aren't being managed out. You're being held accountable for what they're paying you for.
So I would be diving into what's really going on and then coaching from there. And in many cases, and I'm going to say this.
Just because you're uncomfortable. That's right.
Doesn't mean you're being managed out. That's correct.
Or held to a standard. Right.
And so what we've got to determine, we're seeing this a lot with the younger generation, accountability is really, really hard.

We had one a while back that just couldn't seem to get to work on time, wander in an hour late. And we say, you know, well, you're creating stress by, yeah, that's kind of like what we do here.
We create stress for you. You need to be here on time.
If that's stressful, just suck it up. I mean, I know, oh, I'm sorry about your anxiety.
Get your butt to work on time, okay? This is what we do. And that's about how it would sound.
I mean, we might be a little kinder than that, but it's a pretty simple thing. We open the building at a certain time, and you need to be here by then.
Yeah, you have to reframe that. It's not creating stress, right? They say that.

I'm not creating stress.

No.

But it's like anyone that ever told me I'm not perfect in the apple of my mother's eye

now is managing me out.

That's just a bunch of crap.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Okay.

So now there's two possibilities.

You're being that.

I'm not saying that Andre is, but if you be careful when you're using a phrase like I'm

being managed out.

You are taking the position of victim, and you might not be the victim. That's right.
That's what I'm saying. You might be the victim.
You might be a bunch of political junk, and they're moving the chess pieces around, trying to knock you over and get you out because they don't want you there, and they don't have the backbone to just fire you. Right.
You know, the metaphor I would use here, Dave, is are you being coached or are you being mistreated? There you go. And a coach, and I usually return to sports because I grew up playing sports.
Discomfort does not mean you're being mistreated. Yeah, you know, I watch these NFL training camps.
These are millionaires. And the coach is pulling them off the field and they are coaching them up.
They're getting out those little Microsoft pads on the sideline and they're showing these young quarterbacks that are franchise quarterbacks. Here's what you did wrong on this interception.
That's not mistreating that kid. That is coaching that kid on what they expect of them because they're paying them millions of dollars a year.
And the same metaphor holds true in the workplace. Is your leader coaching you or are they mistreating you? Yeah, that's true.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Exactly what I'm saying, because we spent a lot of time and money to hire you and get you in here.
That's right. And so we're not going to manage anybody out.
Yeah, it costs you more to them exactly we're going to try to help you make it that's exactly right but that may involve discomfort and it should it usually doing something you've never done before or something you suck at and you got to get better is discomfort it's not comfortable it's outside your comfort zone a quarterback feels really uncomfortable when he runs off the field after throwing an interception because there's 75,000 people that are mad at him and his head coach. But guess what? That's the price of admission.
That is the ticket to the B and me. So step it up.
So, again, I think that's a good clarification. Are you being coached? And if you are, expect discomfort because that's what's called growth.
That's right. And you're moving up and in.
If you're being mistreated, then you're being managed out. But either one of those could fall under this phrase.
I don't like the phrase is what I'm saying. It feels very victim.
I felt the same thing when I saw it, you know. Yeah, but it could be that he might be the victim of some toxic politics.
It very well could. Being mean, that happens all the time.
There's no question they're bad leaders. Because spineless leaders will do stuff like that that's passive aggressive rather than just fire somebody.
That's right. So you don't have that trouble here.
We're going to tell you this is what we're doing. If it doesn't work, we're going to tell you it didn't work.
We're not scared. We're not afraid.
And we're not mean. And we're not unkind.
So, hey, guys, for all of you listening to the show on YouTube or the podcast, it's about to end. You can get the entire show, including the next segment, on the Ramsey Network app, which is free.
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We're not charging a thing for this. This is the Ramsey show.
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Yep, you heard me right, for free. Then right there on the home screen, you can watch the rest of today's show.
Bada bing, bada boom. All right, I'm getting out of here.

Enjoy. We'll see you on the app.