This Is What Freedom Sounds Like!

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Dr. John Deloney, number one best-selling author and host of the Dr.
John Deloney Show, is my co-host today. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Don't believe me, read Reddit.
There we go. Ah, good to be back on the microphone.

Speaker 1 If those of you that don't care or didn't know, I've been gone for about four weeks goofing off because I'm 64 years old. Why wouldn't I? So

Speaker 1 went to Turkey on a two-week Bible study of the seven churches of Revelation and then changed the, completely flipped it over, flew to Edinburgh and played golf for two weeks in Scotland with my wife on all of that.

Speaker 1 And so we've got a blast and we're glad to be back home. We loved Turkey.
The people of Turkey are wonderful. We love Scottish people.
We've always loved Scotland.

Speaker 1 A lot of fun, but we really love America. And it's good to be home.
America.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, every time I travel, I do meet nice people. I don't have trouble finding good people in any country.
There's very few countries I just despise, John.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's, there's just, when you get out,

Speaker 2 get off the screens, there's good people everywhere.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1 I enjoyed the Scottish. It was a lot of fun, and I had some great discussions with those guys.
They're a lot of fun. Oh, caddies are great.
Oh, I bet. And certainly all the

Speaker 1 Bible stuff we did in Turkey was off the chain.

Speaker 1 But it was really good to be back with you guys. phone number triple eight eight two five five two two five susan's in kansas city hi susan how can we help

Speaker 3 i am looking for wonderful advice of a way that i can help out my husband um he worked in pharmaceutical chemistry with a bachelor's and a phd worked for 15 years got laid off in 2011 and he's never gotten a job since it's been really challenging

Speaker 3 yeah big time

Speaker 3 his layoff coincided with Obamacare being launched and a push to get all sorts of pharmaceuticals down to generic price. So it made research really hard to be profitable in the U.S.

Speaker 3 And of course, the financial crisis had started in 2008. So there were thousands of chemists of his caliper looking for jobs.

Speaker 3 He looked all over the United States. We were willing to move.
We had followed his career previously. And I had been a stay at home parent.

Speaker 3 But when he was two years out of having a job, I went back in and I got a full-time job and rebuilt my career, which has been really helpful, but it hasn't replaced his earnings because my bachelor's degree earnings do not equal PhD earnings in chemistry.

Speaker 1 Apparently they do. Yeah, they do.

Speaker 2 They far exceed it.

Speaker 3 Well, I guess in that case, yep, you're right.

Speaker 3 What I want to do is figure out how I can help him out. I've helped him to seek counseling when he was really down and having depression after being laid off,

Speaker 3 helped him seek medical help. We've even moved halfway across the country from the East Coast back to the Midwest so we can be closer to family and have a lower cost of living.

Speaker 3 But I don't think that he is actively seeking different ways to look for jobs.

Speaker 3 We have enlisted a resume service way back 10 years ago, and he signed up for some online job seminars, and that was right at the beginning of 2020.

Speaker 1 Hey, Susan. This was all about networking.
I was going to interrupt you.

Speaker 2 This has nothing to do with the mechanics of finding a job.

Speaker 1 Okay. He doesn't want to work.

Speaker 3 It's really hard. I do accept that concept.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 3 I hear from him that he does, but I don't see him taking the steps to the side of the business. But

Speaker 2 he's very behavior is a language. What's he been telling you for a decade?

Speaker 1 His behavior for a decade is I don't work. I don't work.
That's the answer to John's question.

Speaker 2 And his behavior for a decade is, I know that you're scared, and I know you're exhausted. I know you're freaked out about bills.
You go do something about it.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to.

Speaker 2 And here's, here's why I don't have a lot of compassion.

Speaker 2 I know too many people of my personal friends who have PhDs who got laid off and they are at the grocery store or they're at Walmart throwing boxes in the interim because they have families and they have commitments that they've made.

Speaker 2 They have responsibilities.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 I also have friends who've been in the throes of depression and have worked like you wouldn't believe to work themselves out. And six months, one year later, they're doing something.

Speaker 3 and i've encouraged him to take any kind of an entry-level basic job just to get back into working that's right and he's not been actively doing that i did that's how i got into my job and now i've got well susan that's what normal people do yeah yeah when you're broke and you don't have work and you can't find work in your field you take a job right and then you keep trying to work your way back into your field maybe

Speaker 1 but you take a job

Speaker 1 and there's no amount there's no excuses or reason that goes for 13 years unless he's mentally disabled or physically disabled. And even then, I think he could probably have been doing something.

Speaker 3 I agree.

Speaker 1 So this is...

Speaker 3 I'm not sure what I can do.

Speaker 1 I don't know that you can do anything.

Speaker 1 You've done a lot already.

Speaker 1 The only thing I would.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 my friend Henry Cloud tells a story

Speaker 1 about a guy who tried to help his son get through college, and he kept getting thrown out because he was smoking weed or whatever.

Speaker 1 And the guy get him back into another college, he'd get thrown out, get him back into another college and get thrown out. And the guy said to Henry, he goes, I got to tell you about my son's problems.

Speaker 1 And he goes, your son doesn't have any problems.

Speaker 1 His dad takes care of everything and he smokes weed. Your son doesn't have any trouble.
He goes, you're the one that's got problems.

Speaker 1 You have a son that's misbehaving and my job is to help you help your son have some problems.

Speaker 1 Because your son's being taken care of by his trust fund daddy. And in a sense, Susan, I know

Speaker 1 you're a kind, sweet person. I can hear it in your voice and the way you've described this.
I want somehow, someone in your husband's life to help him have some problems that gets him off his butt.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we have kind of a blessing and kind of a curse for his parents who have both passed away during this whole thing.

Speaker 3 They left him money and they were helping support us during the earlier parts. of his unemployment.
So he doesn't see a need to get something or we're going to be on the street.

Speaker 1 So here's the problem. Here's Here's the problem.
And I'll say what John's getting to say ahead of him because I know what he's going to say. You're losing respect for your husband.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And it's going to cost you your marriage.

Speaker 1 It could. And he needs to know that.
He doesn't believe that, and he doesn't know that.

Speaker 2 Because this is, yeah, this isn't about resumes. This is not about

Speaker 1 getting up off your butt.

Speaker 2 What mom left us or dad left us in the trust fund. It's about none of that.
This is you having the courage to say after 10 years, I do not respect the man that I share bed with.

Speaker 2 And he has a right, I believe, to know that.

Speaker 2 And it's about contribution and purpose.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's taking us down a road that I don't want to go down, honey, which is that we're not going to end up married.

Speaker 1 And so we're going to go see a marriage counselor, and you're going to go get a job doing something in the next 30 days. Or you are contributing to the end of our marriage.

Speaker 1 That's what a marriage counselor is going to teach you to say.

Speaker 3 We're not telling you to say two marriage counselors and it has not been successful, but maybe we need another person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you need somebody to get up and

Speaker 1 consulted.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've even consulted a lawyer and I found that I would have to pay him alimony despite putting him through two graduate degrees because he went back during this, got another graduate degree at very little cost because I happened to work where he got the degree.

Speaker 2 I hate this for you. I hate this for you.
It shouldn't be this way.

Speaker 1 It's not right. It's wrong.
But it's not going to get better until someone moves in. He's stuck.

Speaker 1 And somebody's going to have to love him enough to knock him out of the ditch because he ain't climbing out. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Dr. John Deloney Ramsey personality is my co-host today.
Judy is in Los Angeles. Hi, Judy.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 3 Hi,

Speaker 3 I am a long-time listener and first-time caller.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 I'm on Baby Step Six, and I listen to your show all the time, and you recommend never to co-sign for someone.

Speaker 3 But I'm in a situation where I do want to co-sign for somebody under a certain circumstance.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 my husband's cousin, first cousin, she's been on Section 8 anyway. She lost that.
Now she's in her 60s. She needs to get an apartment.

Speaker 3 There is a special needs trust that her parents have set up for her. And in order for her to get into an apartment,

Speaker 3 she needs to have someone co-sign. Or her brother, who is the trustee, refused to do so.

Speaker 3 And I was wondering,

Speaker 1 warning, why would her brother,

Speaker 1 who loves her more than you do, he's her brother, for God's sakes, not want to co-sign?

Speaker 3 He doesn't love her. Oh, he actually doesn't mind if she goes home.
Yes, no, that's true.

Speaker 1 I don't believe it. It is totally true.

Speaker 3 It's from a very dysfunctional family. He's not willing.
His wife is telling me he's willing to let her go homeless if they have to.

Speaker 1 There's more to this story than you are telling or believing.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 she has a problem. She has personality problems.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's right.

Speaker 3 She's in her 60s. She's never worked in her life.
She only

Speaker 1 section 8.

Speaker 3 She lost that.

Speaker 2 Who is the custodian of this of the Special Needs Trust?

Speaker 1 Our brother.

Speaker 2 Her brother. So will you have access to the funds for this apartment, or does she have access to the funds?

Speaker 3 Right. So what I'm going to ask, if it's okay, if that works, if you agree, that's just a right thing for me to do.
No, it's not.

Speaker 3 I can try to ask a brother for 14 months of pay in an account to me, and then I will transfer that to her monthly.

Speaker 3 Is that okay? If funding is available for a whole year, is it safe for me to co-sign?

Speaker 2 I wouldn't. What if she trashes the place?

Speaker 3 She well, she won't trash the place, but she might, you know,

Speaker 3 have no, she's not like that, but she will she might have trouble with neighbors. That's the only that's the kind of problem she has.

Speaker 1 Or gets kicked out or there's four has four people over or gets sweet talked in.

Speaker 3 She loves cats. She'll probably, you know, take care of her.

Speaker 1 Break all the rules.

Speaker 1 Rules don't apply to her.

Speaker 1 Rules don't apply to her. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And Judy,

Speaker 2 we're going to tell you, no, if this money's available, then she can get the apartment under her name. You can write the checks every month for her.
If she can't do that, that's fine.

Speaker 1 But you don't need to coach her.

Speaker 3 But how do I prove to the apartment people that there's money available?

Speaker 1 Well, you would have to have the money available. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Print off a statement. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Do I show them? What do I do? Because we're in California. There's a lot of these places, and I don't live in the same town as she does.

Speaker 3 So it's not easy for me to take her somewhere and talk to someone, you know?

Speaker 1 Well, you get on the phone with the apartment manager and you say, this is what's going on. She has a special needs trust.
Brother's going to send you documentation.

Speaker 1 He's going to end the documentation, send it to the property manager and say, we'll set aside the first 14 months and go ahead and just prepay the rent for 14 months. That's fine, too.

Speaker 3 Oh, it's just prepay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you don't cosign.

Speaker 2 And they're going to try to get you to co-sign.

Speaker 1 Because you have a blind spot here, kiddo.

Speaker 1 This lady

Speaker 1 she's gotten a hold of your heart, and she's sweet, and she does need someone to help her, but we need to define help very carefully.

Speaker 1 Help involves her behaving, and you're not willing to make that requirement, nor can you make that guarantee based on her 60 years of misbehavior.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 1 You're going to get screwed if you do this. Please don't do it.

Speaker 1 Okay. It's going to go up in flames.

Speaker 3 Okay. So I told the apartment that I have money, but I need to show some proof, right, to the trust.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 brother's going to have to send documentation.

Speaker 2 And by the way, you don't have this money, Judy. You still have to go through a guy that you say doesn't even love her, doesn't care about her, doesn't care if she ends up on the street, right?

Speaker 2 So all of this is like two hypotheticals removed from reality.

Speaker 1 And let me help you with this, okay? It's not that he doesn't love her. It's from the 16 times he tried to help her and it burned him.

Speaker 1 And he's done being burned, so he's putting up a boundary that's different than not loving and you got you're calling it not love in a dysfunctional family i'm calling her a dysfunctional person who needs love and help but has burned everything around her to the ground to the point her own brother won't help her you can't put that on him i'm not going to let you do it yeah i don't even know him And I'm not going to let, he's not the jerk in this story.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And there's not a jerk in this story.

Speaker 1 There's a sad lady with mental illness and you're going to get burned to the ground when her mental illness activates if you're signed on the documents yeah don't sign just

Speaker 1 i don't know an apartment complex that won't take your check if if you got it so if they won't take your money so she can get her own place listen i'm a landlord if i know what's going on here i'm not putting her in there that's fair that's fair because prepaying the rent ain't half my problem It's the 93 cats that end up in my building.

Speaker 2 Right. Or all the neighbors or whatever.

Speaker 1 Or she burns the neighbor's cat live in the front yard. I don't know what's going to happen here.

Speaker 1 I don't know what's going on with her. No, I don't want her as a tenant under any circumstances.
Co-signer, prepaid, double-paid. No, thank you.
Life's too short to sign up for drama as a landlord. So

Speaker 1 that's what you're going to face, hon, more than anything else. So you're, please, honey, don't, don't confuse this.
And you're trying to do a nice, good, noble thing in a really

Speaker 1 naive and unwise way.

Speaker 1 That was kind.

Speaker 2 That's the best way to say it. And I think this is a bigger conversation, Dave.

Speaker 2 When you want to help somebody and you get all these scenarios in your mind, and then you spend all these nights and weeks worrying about it, all of this phone call could have been already headed off.

Speaker 2 You could have already sat down with your brother.

Speaker 2 You could have already called an apartment complex and taken all these worrying variables off the table so that you know, okay, here's the final step here.

Speaker 2 And you probably would have found out a long time ago, you either don't need to be a co-signer or nobody's going to let her live there. You have to come up with another option,

Speaker 2 But it's always like, well, then I might do this, and then after that, I'm going to do that. You don't even know if all this is going to happen.
And you're so spun up about it. Just go find out.

Speaker 1 Go find out. I co-signed for stuff when I was young and foolish, and I ended up paying it.
One poor guy co-signed for me. I went bankrupt.
He ended up paying it. I had to go back and pay him later.

Speaker 1 His wife still doesn't like me 35 years later. So it's okay.
It's valid. I mean, she got screwed.
They didn't ultimately get it. But I mean, she thought she did.
And so I get it. I completely get it.

Speaker 1 Proverbs 17:18 says in the scripture: one lacking in sense co-signs for another. When I co-signed, Judy, I was lacking in sense.

Speaker 1 If you cosign this, the Bible says you're lacking in sense. I didn't say it.
Get mad at God.

Speaker 1 Don't do it.

Speaker 1 That was pretty good. I mean, you kind of brought the Bible out, so there you go.
There we go. Brought the Bible out.
Yeah, that's the final, right?

Speaker 2 That's the final one. That's the one.

Speaker 1 Open phones at 888-825-5225. Kim is in New York.
Hi, Kim. How are you?

Speaker 3 Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 3 So, I wanted to know how to save money for a mortgage down payment whilst you're paying rent.

Speaker 1 Very hard.

Speaker 3 It is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How much debt have you got?

Speaker 3 I can go through the numbers and I can tell you.

Speaker 1 No, just how much debt have you got? Just give me the total.

Speaker 3 I want to say about $40,000.

Speaker 1 How much of that's your car?

Speaker 3 Well, me and my husband together, it's about

Speaker 3 he owes

Speaker 3 16 and he owes about 20.

Speaker 1 Okay. How much is the car?

Speaker 3 My car total with the insurance, just insurance or just the car?

Speaker 1 No, the debt on the car. How much debt is on the car?

Speaker 3 About 16. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. Of your 40.
Or of your, yeah, of your 40. So half of it's your car.
Okay. So here's the simple answer, but it's not a simple answer.

Speaker 1 Is when you don't have any debt payments, you'll have more room in your budget. So before you start worrying about saving for a down payment on a house, let's clear the debt off.

Speaker 1 That may mean selling a car. It may mean taking an extra job.
It will mean not eating out. It will mean not going on vacation so that I can get out of debt.

Speaker 1 Because if you didn't have any payments, oh,

Speaker 1 you'd have money to save for your down payment. That's where it comes from.
Your most powerful wealth building tool is your income. Don't give it to somebody else,

Speaker 1 and then you'll have it to save for a down payment. Simple but hard.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Ah, there's a money and marriage date night virtual event.

Speaker 1 Two-hour event hosted by Rachel Cruz and our own Dr. John Deloney will feature a lot of incredible parts of our money and marriage getaway.

Speaker 1 They're going to be diving into real topics like goal setting, budgeting. Sounds like a date night to me.

Speaker 1 Gosh, we're not

Speaker 1 going to gather a couple of romantics.

Speaker 2 When I think about growing up in your house, that's what it feels like.

Speaker 1 You know what? We never had a single budget committee meeting with the children. I'm just saying.
All right. There will also be a Q ⁇ A, so Rachel and John can answer your questions live.

Speaker 1 This is happening October 29th. You can attend from anywhere from the comfort of your own living room.
You don't want to miss this one night to refresh your connection and communication.

Speaker 1 It's 39 bucks is all.

Speaker 1 It goes up after October 6th, a couple of weeks from now. You can get your tickets at ramseysolutions.com slash events, money, and marriage date night virtual from your home on October 29th.

Speaker 1 John, you and Rachel,

Speaker 1 let me tell you, guys, if you don't know, The two of them just sitting back here in the office are a riot. And then we put on a microphone and add a little adrenaline to it.

Speaker 1 Just for you guys, they're definitely two riots looking for a place to happen. And so it's worth the inter, if you just like good comedy,

Speaker 1 you will enjoy this because they're a lot of fun, both of them.

Speaker 2 They're both very quick-witted and very opinionated.

Speaker 1 And very opinionated, and they're right and all that.

Speaker 1 She's not always right, Dave. They'll help you.
No, she's not definitely not always right. But the,

Speaker 1 just thinking about, oh, well, anyway, yeah, so Rachel Cruz, my daughter, and Dr. John Deloney, October the 29th, only $39.
Ticket prices will go up soon. Go to ramseysolutions.com/slash events.

Speaker 1 It is a money and marriage date night. There will be serious stuff.
I'm not, I'm,

Speaker 1 I don't want to overstate the comedy part. It's, it's a very serious topic.
They're going to go through the details.

Speaker 1 They're going to give you something for your money, give you something for your marriage, and go give you something for both of those things working together. Don't miss it.
David is in Knoxville.

Speaker 1 Hi, David. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Hello. Hi, what's up?

Speaker 3 Well, my financial advisor has recommended that we shift. I mean, we have historically just invested in mutual funds as you've recommended, but that we shift some money to a separate managed account

Speaker 3 and just kind of wanted your opinion on that.

Speaker 1 Well, a managed account in financial advisors parlance is mutual funds.

Speaker 3 Well, some of this was individual stocks.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, you can do that in a managed account.

Speaker 3 Well, that was

Speaker 1 I would not do that. I do not do that.
And I know more about individual stocks than your financial advisor does.

Speaker 1 And I'm not doing that. So no, thank you.

Speaker 1 But a managed account, most of the financial, under the new fiduciary rules that came out about three years ago, ERISA just and the SEC just tore up that industry.

Speaker 1 And so most of the accounts are now managed accounts, meaning you pay like 1% of the portfolio a year and they manage the entire portfolio and it can be a portfolio of mutual funds.

Speaker 1 And that's what most of our Smart Vestor Pros use now. Now, we do not recommend using single stocks in that, but you can use that approach for mutual funds only is my point.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 but, you know,

Speaker 1 let me tell you the downside, and I'm being critical because, and I don't know your guy, so I could be overstating this.

Speaker 1 When a financial advisor says he can manage stocks better than a billion-dollar mutual fund can manage the exact same stocks inside the mutual fund, that screams of arrogance to me.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Again, I know enough about it that I could easily make that case that I was going to do that.

Speaker 1 But all the data and all the research that I have says I will not outperform the mutual fund with my little single-stock portfolio

Speaker 1 with my little financial advisor in Knoxville, Tennessee as

Speaker 1 my stock picker. No, thank you.
I'll pass.

Speaker 1 But if he wants to do the other stuff, and I would be worried about that in terms of your relationship with him personally.

Speaker 1 But if he wants to run mutual funds, my guy runs

Speaker 1 managed accounts. I don't personally do that with mine because I'm old school and I've got all my stuff set up.
But

Speaker 1 all my kids run managed accounts with our local Smart Vestor Pro. But it's all mutual funds in there.

Speaker 2 Is it a red flag if you get an out-of-the-blue call from your advisor saying, hey, we need to, I'm recommending we move it all to X, Y, and Z? Because

Speaker 2 the word on the street is that a managed care

Speaker 1 managed account.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a managed account advisor will move you to packages where there's some sort of kickback or they get an extra incentive to do so. Kind of like on a lot.

Speaker 1 They can do that, and some of them will, but it is a red flag if somebody starts moving big chunks around because it says that the original thing that they believe, they no longer believe.

Speaker 2 So this is a philosophical statement sometimes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is. Okay.
All right. It is.

Speaker 1 There's something new that beats all of the data that we have. And

Speaker 1 first, you know, I don't believe it. Okay.
Yeah. So,

Speaker 1 you know, all the data that we have, the average person buying and selling stocks on their own account with their own financial advisor loses money. You can't compete.
They lose money.

Speaker 1 They not only don't make money, they lose money on average. That's the data.
That's actual research. And so years ago, the Wall Street Journal did a funny article that they actually did this.

Speaker 1 The problem is the lack of diversification because you're picking seven stocks instead of 90 to 200.

Speaker 1 A mutual fund has 90 to 200 stocks in it, which gives you a lot of safety versus if you've got to pick five or three,

Speaker 1 you're betting the farm on a very narrow ledge here.

Speaker 1 So they actually took a monkey and blindfolded the monkey and gave it darts and it threw it at the wall and hit stocks. And they picked those stocks and then they gave the

Speaker 1 stock pickers the right to go pick any three stocks they wanted to pick and come back 18 months later, the blindfolded monkey beat most of them.

Speaker 1 Point being, not that the guys are stupid. These are smart people picking these stocks.
But when you can only pick three, and a mutual fund can have 90 to 200, your safety level goes away.

Speaker 1 You lose all the power of of diversification. And there's an arrogance to it that says I can pick the stocks better than a guy running an American funds or a Fidelity or a whatever, name whatever big.

Speaker 2 Well, not you sitting in your house thinking, or some guy thinking, I can beat these supercomputers with all the AI tech.

Speaker 1 Like, you can't. You can't.
Exactly. Exactly.
So the thing is, yeah,

Speaker 1 you know, like, for instance, in a mutual fund, they'll have a whole team of researchers. Right.

Speaker 1 So you have one guy or gal that comes to work in a car longer than your house, and their only job is to study every detail of the automotive industry all day long for the last 25 years.

Speaker 2 Or they've seen some guy who lives in South Africa for two years

Speaker 2 in a mine talking to the transactions.

Speaker 1 You can't beat that.

Speaker 1 And you're going to compete with that with your guy in Knoxville, Tennessee. No, you're not.
Or Nashville, Tennessee, or Los Angeles or New York.

Speaker 1 So because of the specialization of that, the nuances of that, those guys, that guy knows more about the automotive industry than I know.

Speaker 1 I mean, he's going to pick a better automotive stock and know when to get in and out of Ford based on EVs or whether or not Tesla is going to burn up or not, literally, metaphorically or whatever.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, all of that.

Speaker 1 He's got his finger on all that. And, you know, so the mutual funds are just, they've got the best people on the planet and they've got a track record that shows it.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they've got some a net. They've got that you can spread it out.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's spread out. Spread your portions to seven, yes, to eight.

Speaker 1 For a disaster may come upon the land. Ecclesiastes.
All right.

Speaker 1 Freedom. And you're dropping Bible all day.
Freedom today. Freedom.

Speaker 2 You've been on a Bible trip for the last three weeks.

Speaker 1 Almost did, yeah. Phoenix, Arizona.
Freedom's with us. Hi, Freedom.
Oh, nope. You're not with us at all because we're going into a break.
See what happens when you don't work for a while.

Speaker 1 You don't even know where your commercial breaks are. That's how that works.

Speaker 2 It feels like we're driving, and I'm talking to my friend and you're just looking straight over at the exit.

Speaker 2 No, you're just looking right at the passenger and you know the passenger's like, hey, look, we're a red light, red light, red light.

Speaker 1 You're just talking, all excited, quoting scriptures. Here it comes.
Here it comes. Dropping Ecclesiastes right in there, heading straight into commercial break.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here.
Open phones at 888-825-5225. Today's question of the day is brought to you by YReFi.

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Speaker 2 And they give you a low fixed rate loan built for you go to yrefi.com slash ramsey today that's the letter why refy.com slash ramsey might not be available in all states all right today's question comes from courtney in washington courtney writes i'm 23 and i've been married for one year last night he admitted to me that i'm i'm assuming husband my husband admitted to me that i am better with money meaning i don't like debt and that he spends more than he makes he gave me his credit card and debit card to hold and asked me to give him an allowance for necessary purchases.

Speaker 2 He has a bad habit of using credit, payment plans, and buying too many toys. I don't like the idea of holding his cards and controlling his actions.

Speaker 2 I understand accountability partnership, but I believe putting limitations on a full-grown man will lead to resentment in our marriage, even if he asks for it.

Speaker 2 Is his asking me to hold his cards reasonable? If I do hold his cards for a period, what can I do to make those spending habits stay gone?

Speaker 1 How do you get so wise at 20 years? Three years old. Courtney, you are Courtney.

Speaker 2 I I was about to say the same thing, man.

Speaker 1 Touchdown. Who is this person? It's amazing.
Wow.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I want to give, I had this exact conversation. I was probably 26, maybe 25.
Like, I see the trajectory. I see the things that plagued my family growing up.
And I'm on the track.

Speaker 2 And it was kind of like, I need you to drive.

Speaker 2 Now, in retrospect, I understand that.

Speaker 2 That started a power struggle between me and my wife that lasted years and years and years. And so I like, I'm happy for this dude that he was like, hey, I'm not doing this right.

Speaker 1 I like his humility. Yes, there you go.
That's the beginning of repentance.

Speaker 2 Got to do this thing together. Got to do it.
She's got to do it together. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll start with that.

Speaker 1 What do you think, man? I think it's exactly right. I mean, she's onto something here.
She doesn't want to have a, she doesn't want to be his mommy.

Speaker 2 It's his mom. That's it.

Speaker 1 She wants to be his wife.

Speaker 2 And by the way, husbands, it is very hard to be, for your mom to be romantically interested in you. And when you expect your wife to mother you, it does something to the desire and eros in your home.

Speaker 2 Don't do that, right? Work together. He can,

Speaker 2 A, cut up the credit card and put his debit card in a drawer and get cash. Carry that around.

Speaker 1 And the two of you start doing a budget together, and you pinky swear and spit shake that that's a contract and I'm sticking to this and that's my accountability. We are going to work together, not

Speaker 1 because no one should be doing it by themselves.

Speaker 2 That's right. Or he can text you and every time he feels like making a purchase, just as a way to extend the gap.

Speaker 1 No, if it's in the budget, you can make the purchase.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, but when he's about to impulse buy, not in the budget. You can't buy.

Speaker 1 You can't buy it if it's not in the budget.

Speaker 2 No, no, I just want him to identify, oh, I'm about to do something stupid. And it's just extending that gap between stimulus and response.
You can do some of those kind of things. I did hand, I mean,

Speaker 2 here's the deal. It's about putting in hurdles.
But yeah, I love her sense that she already feels like, hey, I'm going to end up as mom. I don't like this.

Speaker 1 Now, that's very wise. Way ahead.
Yeah, the answer is no, I'm not going to take this over for you. But yes, we're going to work together.

Speaker 1 And yes, as two grown-ups, we're going to agree on a plan that serves our future and serves our present and serves our household and serves our marriage.

Speaker 1 And then we're going to stick to that plan as two adults. And when one of us that has an inner child wakes up and wants to go crazy at Costco, you have to stick to the plan.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Because there's hell to pay if you don't stick to the plan. Right.
And define what hell is, right? Hell is you go home and you didn't stick to the plan.

Speaker 1 And your spouse is not going to be happy with you.

Speaker 2 And I think it's an important call. I have told people, just give your credit card or give your debit card to your spouse.
I was wrong on that. I don't think that's wise.

Speaker 2 I think what's wiser is if you can't control it, then let's cut up both cards and you carry cash for a while. And go get one reissued when you're ready.

Speaker 1 Well, here's the thing. What you need is a reason to control it.
When you have no boundary,

Speaker 1 nothing is written down, then everything's okay. Right.

Speaker 1 And that includes...

Speaker 1 You know, the 92-gallon thing of mustard at Costco, which everyone needs. We know that.
Drama mustard. Apparently, because you can get it on a two-wheeler, right?

Speaker 1 And so, you know, but we impulse stupid butt stuff mainly because we don't have, A, any price to pay if we do it, and B, there was nothing in line before we got there.

Speaker 1 It's like I used to tell my kids, you know, about premarital sex. I said, okay, we're going to sit down and we're going to have a discussion before you end up in the back seat.

Speaker 1 Because if you don't decide before you end up in the back seat, it's over when you get to the back seat. That's right.
So you got to decide before you get to Costco what you're going to spend.

Speaker 1 And I'm not against Costco. I like Costco.
We're actually an endorser of theirs. But, you know,

Speaker 1 before you get to the restaurant, before you get to whatever. And so you don't come home with a new bass boat and go, look what I did, honey.

Speaker 2 Can I tell you, as a former impulse buyer, just a clicker and buyer?

Speaker 1 I am too.

Speaker 2 I have to deal with the fact that I was creating a life where I wasn't very alive. Yeah.
And if it wasn't that, I was flipping channels. It was just a kind of life.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it's dull.

Speaker 2 And when I dress that, how can I inject some life into my life?

Speaker 1 Dude, I don't think about it. I remember the first time I went to Sam's and got out without buying anything.
I thought it was like a spiritual victory. I know.

Speaker 2 Dave's out in the parking lot.

Speaker 1 I'm like, woohoo!

Speaker 1 I did it. I got in and out.
Didn't buy anything.

Speaker 2 Hey, if we're celebrating, I went into Home Depot the other day. Didn't have what I wanted.
And I walked out in and buy one thing. You didn't even buy a tool? That was a huge, huge thing.

Speaker 1 That's a breakthrough. That's a breakthrough, John.
I'm proud of you. It was good.

Speaker 1 My name is John, and I like tools.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 that's the thing, guys. But when you have a plan, here's what changed it for me.
It's like, okay, I want a good future. I want a good marriage.

Speaker 1 I want to be in agreement with my spouse more than anything Costco has. That's the key.
And when it's written down and I made a promise, I can't break my promise.

Speaker 2 And if you're getting itchy,

Speaker 1 I don't get itchy to break my promise. Underneath it.
It doesn't come up. I really don't.
Now, if I get itchy, I just go, I can't do it. It's not in the plan.
Yeah. I got to go do something else.

Speaker 1 Because the plan supersedes the itch. I like it.
You know, the contract with my wife, the word I gave to her that this is what we're going to spend our money on so that we freaking have a future.

Speaker 1 That's it. Now, that contract means a whole lot more than that stupid item.
That's it. But you don't have anything to gauge that item against, like that boundary, then

Speaker 1 all is fair. You just buy everything.
Yep. And the same thing's true of your stupid Amazon button.
Click, click, click, click, click, submit, submit, submit.

Speaker 1 Empty the cart into your dadgum front porch. And there's nothing in your life that's telling you no.

Speaker 1 There's no budget. There's no plan.

Speaker 1 I can just go make some more money. I'll outearn my stupidity.
Submit, submit, submit.

Speaker 1 Isn't it interesting that the word is submit? Submit. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's they're not.

Speaker 1 Bow down. Bow down deeply and submit to the Amazon God.

Speaker 2 There's a great Instagram reel where there's a guy watching his wife and she's doing yard work or something and it just is slowly panning.

Speaker 2 And he said, my goodness, I won the lottery with the most amazing, hardworking, beautiful. And it pans to the front porch and it's just stacked up with boxes.
And he's like, good God.

Speaker 1 That's pretty good. Yeah, that's pretty great.
It's good. So, yeah, Courtney, kudos to you at 23 to grasp.

Speaker 1 Humility and wisdom also. Kudos to him for being humble enough to go.
At

Speaker 1 man that's a that's a big manly thing to do to say i can't do this by myself because a lot of 23 year olds desperately don't want to look like a little boy and he he walked in there like a man and said i need some help

Speaker 1 and he turned he did the wrong thing and you you got onto that but he did the he did it for the right reasons and you guys have the uh ingredients of an incredibly

Speaker 1 powerful marriage that becomes very wealthy and you've got it at a young age so congratulations. That's a great question.
Really, really good. So learning to work together.

Speaker 1 And I got to tell you, there's certain segments of our culture, certain demographics,

Speaker 1 certain races, certain things where it's not unusual that mama pays the bills and daddy brings home the bacon.

Speaker 1 And I'm stepping all in that stuff for some of you because you watched your mama do it. It doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker 2 Or the other side, daddy does it all and mom doesn't ask any questions. Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sharon kind kind of had the um i called it scarlet o'hara syndrome it's like do whatever you want to do honey

Speaker 1 and and if the children don't have clothes we'll just use the drapery

Speaker 1 you know it's like

Speaker 1 remember

Speaker 1 gotta work together scarlet o'hara syndrome there it is ah gotta work together this is the ramsey show

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships. Dr.
John Deloney, Ramsey personality, host of the Dr. John Deloney Show, PhD in counseling.

Speaker 1 He's our Ramsey personality that is my co-host today. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host.
The phone number here is 888-825-5225. Freedom is with us in Phoenix, Arizona.
Hi, Freedom. How are you?

Speaker 1 I'm pretty good. How are you? Better than I deserve.
What's up?

Speaker 3 I am

Speaker 3 a baby brand new business owner.

Speaker 3 I opened up a concrete company, and

Speaker 3 I was just wondering if I should finance a work truck or some heavy equipment, or if I should just keep grinding and little by little and pay for it by cash.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, Freedom, if you listen to the show much, you know we tell people not to borrow money and we don't borrow money. You already knew that before you called, right?

Speaker 1 Yes, sir. Okay, and I run a business.
I run a business called Ramsey Solutions that started on my card table 32 years ago in my living room. And we're sitting in

Speaker 1 a building and a campus that's worth somewhere around $600 million,

Speaker 1 and we have never borrowed a dime. over that 30 years.
We've just taken our profits and reinvested and hustled and grind and taken our profits and reinvested.

Speaker 1 The benefits of of that, the downside of that is everything goes slower.

Speaker 1 The benefit is you don't have to do it over

Speaker 1 because you don't crash every three years, every time something goes upside down. And so I don't take many steps backwards.

Speaker 1 All my steps are forward because I don't borrow money, and so I never get pinched. COVID comes along, I didn't get pinched.
I have no debt and a pile of cash. I didn't get pinched.

Speaker 1 Other people doing what I'm doing are out of business because they couldn't cash flow their payroll when the government shut them down. Okay.

Speaker 1 And so you got to pay those payments on that bulldozer, dude, whether you can use it or not because, well, I was going to say weather, but in Phoenix, there's no issue.

Speaker 1 But yeah, it's not like it's going to be a rain problem for you. But anyway,

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 1 something else happens,

Speaker 1 goes sideways in maybe a presidential election and the market slowed down or something and you couldn't get work, you got to pay the payments anyway on that dozer and it'll take you down.

Speaker 1 So I would tell you to grow slower

Speaker 1 and more sure-footed. Some people would call it sustainable.
And I would just use your name as my guidance. I don't want to give up my freedom.

Speaker 1 But it's frustrating as a business owner, I will tell you.

Speaker 1 There's been times over the years that I wanted to do something that I really, really, really thought was a good idea business-wise, and I didn't have the money.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't do it because I don't borrow money.

Speaker 1 But then something come along six months later that'll make me know, oh, that's why I wasn't able to do that. I would have been up a dadgum creek if I'd have done that.

Speaker 1 And the other thing that happens when you borrow money in business, how long you've been doing this?

Speaker 3 Concrete, I just opened it up like a month ago.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you got a lot of energy and enthusiasm right now, right?

Speaker 3 Yes, but I'm very

Speaker 3 starting to get a little discouraged because it is just me. I'm just a one-man guy trying to do

Speaker 1 a man job. That's the hardest part of business until you get it up.
You get up to about 10 people where other people are doing some of the work. It's nice, I'll tell you ahead of time.

Speaker 1 But even borrowing money into that won't work because you'll go sideways. So here's what happens.
Let me ask you this. As an entrepreneur, I'm a fellow entrepreneur.

Speaker 1 Every morning when I take my dog for a walk on the golf course, every morning when you take a shower, those of us that are entrepreneurs have six or seven hundred ideas by the time we get to work.

Speaker 1 I got an idea a minute. Do you?

Speaker 1 Every hour. Okay, there you go.
All right. So I can tell you from 30 years of doing this that 90% of my brilliant early morning cup of coffee ideas, when implemented, suck.

Speaker 1 I have survived in business 90% of my ideas.

Speaker 1 I've made everything that you've heard of Dave Ramsey, all the money, all the brand recognition, all the celebrity or whatever it is you want to call this crap that I do.

Speaker 1 I've done all of it on about 10% of ideas. You guys all know me for the 10% that worked.

Speaker 1 If I had borrowed money on the 90% that didn't work, I would be buried in bankruptcy many times over.

Speaker 1 Because when you borrow money, you magnify your stupidity.

Speaker 1 And that's what's coming. So please, I'm giving you my best sales pitch.

Speaker 2 I bought it. I bought it.

Speaker 1 Please don't give up your freedom. Please move a little little slower.
Go make you some money. Bust it, bust it, bust it.
Get you some hires where you're not doing it by yourself.

Speaker 1 Get you a piece, rent a piece of equipment, turn it back in, rent a piece of equipment, turn it back in, and then go buy you a used one that the guy who went into debt had to turn into the repo lot.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 go buy you a used one off the repo lot for the last guy that thought he had a great idea in your world. And it's everything, man.
It's everything. It changes.

Speaker 1 80% of small businesses fail in the first five years. And the number one reason for failure, they say, is cash flow.

Speaker 1 Cash flow is starved by two possible things in small business, not paying your freaking taxes and setting your sales tax aside and going in debt and having payments.

Speaker 1 When you have payments and no revenue, that's called cash flow problems. And you go out of business.
It turns your dream into a nightmare.

Speaker 2 I think the best,

Speaker 2 as I travel around the country the last four or five years and meeting small business owners especially we see them all the time with entree all the time entree leadership i i to a person who runs their business like this there's this um it's the it's the bubba gump shrimp scenario that when they don't have any payments something comes along there's a storm of some sort and they're the only boat left in the harbor and they get all of it right yeah um we we have entree leaders come up for special luncheons up here sometime and i just hear it over and over we're the only ones in my neighborhood or my city that made it through COVID on this particular weird little niche and now we have all the market share well and you got all the their employees that's we got everybody we got all the expertise pick the that's our best ones we got we buy their equipment at pennies on the dollar so you it's like you drive a minivan inventory

Speaker 1 I've done it over and over and over again over the years and and you know the fastest way to get rich quick is don't is don't yeah and but there's there's a moment you just show up and show up and show up and then a moment happens and you're the right place but it is it is frustrating.

Speaker 1 It's so frustrating.

Speaker 1 It's frustrating because there's something in front of you and everything in your brain says it's going to work and you got to try it and you got to try it and only after it doesn't work do you know why it didn't work.

Speaker 1 And so you don't know what you don't know and when you borrow into it, you magnify your stupidity. I've been so tempted so many times.

Speaker 1 I could tell you 25 stories, but I don't have time of times that I almost, I really, really,

Speaker 1 and then eight months later, I go, oh, well, there you go. God protected me again.
I thought I was going to go down.

Speaker 1 And God just, because I always just say, all right, God, if you want me to do this, you got to send some money because I don't have any. You got some.

Speaker 1 And if he doesn't send money, I figure he don't want me to do it.

Speaker 3 Ta-da.

Speaker 1 He's got your money on Ozby. That's a person of faith.

Speaker 1 If you're not a person of faith, you don't have that option. You're just kind of yelling at the sky at that point.

Speaker 1 But in my case, I'm just, I truly believe God owns this, and I truly believe if he wants us to have a computer, he'll give us the money to buy the computer.

Speaker 1 He wants us to have a building, he'll give us the money to buy the building.

Speaker 1 a bulldozer or whatever it is and um and until he does something's not right something's not aligned yet and i'm waiting on that frustrates the crud out of me because i really do want to be god and it's his job this is the ramsey show

Speaker 1 dr john deloney ramsey personality is my co-host today the best way to win at something is to do it on purpose very few times do people accidentally win

Speaker 1 You don't accidentally become wealthy. You execute a plan step by step over a period of time.
You don't accidentally have a good marriage. You execute a plan step by step over time.

Speaker 1 You don't accidentally raise great kids.

Speaker 1 It doesn't happen. It's a process.
It's an intentional act, this thing called success. And the best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a plan, a monthly budget.

Speaker 1 Every dollar, the world's best budgeting app, makes it simple to plan your spending, track your expenses, follow the baby steps, plan out every paycheck, be in agreement with your spouse, get out of debt.

Speaker 1 We teach you how to do every bit of it. Download every dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play, and click the link in the description if you're listening to YouTube or a podcast.

Speaker 1 Finn is in Detroit. Hi, Finn.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 3 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'm 22. I graduated a year early to not go into debt.
I'm looking at a career change into counseling and psychology.

Speaker 3 So I'm looking at going to grad school for counseling work and clinical psychology.

Speaker 3 Right now, I have...

Speaker 1 Career change. Did you even start your other career?

Speaker 3 No, no. I was interested in, I'm a big photographer, so I was interested in photojournalism and realized that traveling around all the time wasn't that sustainable

Speaker 1 okay so you got a degree currently in what

Speaker 3 political science

Speaker 1 which has nothing to do with any of this okay

Speaker 2 yep yep okay yep all right yeah all right so you want to go you want to go um we need some more good mental health professionals so good on you so

Speaker 2 what are you thinking about doing yeah

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'm interested in a master's in counseling or social work and have been considering the possibility of trying to get into a doctoral program in clinical psych because those are funded programs.

Speaker 3 Now, ultimately, I need the background and the experience to get into those programs. In the meantime, have been volunteering in psychology labs.

Speaker 3 But imagine that if I can get into a master's program, I need the capital to be able to pay for that program.

Speaker 3 So right now I have about $22,000 saved

Speaker 3 from savings and working throughout high school and college.

Speaker 1 Good for you, man.

Speaker 1 Well done.

Speaker 1 What's the master's cost? What's the master's cost?

Speaker 2 About $35,000, probably?

Speaker 3 So depending on the program,

Speaker 3 you can go for $30,000, you can go for $50,000, you can go for $80,000.

Speaker 3 A program like University of Michigan costs $80,000 in state, which is kind of crazy in my opinion.

Speaker 3 And then if you go for kind of a lesser tiered program, but you're still getting the letters next to your name, it can be between 30 and 40.

Speaker 2 Do you know where my um the the woman that I see for a therapist, you know where she went to school?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 1 I have no idea.

Speaker 1 None.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 When I was at when I was at Belmont University, all the therapists who worked for me there, you know, they went to school?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 They're amazing therapists.

Speaker 2 And so my guess is a school like University of Michigan is going to be very research heavy, and it's probably

Speaker 2 funded. It's probably got a whole bunch of other steps to it.

Speaker 2 If you want to to go be a research psychologist and less about working with people and more about learning statistics and learning about people and spending your life in a lab, it'd be an amazing school to go to.

Speaker 2 And you'll have to find out one of those funded PhD programs.

Speaker 2 If you want to just go be a social worker or clinical counselor in your local community, which is an amazing job, dude, go to the best program in your community that you can afford.

Speaker 2 And I'd strongly recommend see if you can get a job at the university because those almost always come with some sort of tuition tuition discount and even better if you can get a job in residence life you get to live your mission you get to work with all kinds of people going through all kinds of struggles and challenges crazy like a crazy college student it is wild but that's that's when their family issues and their psychology issues and their emotional issues come up and addiction all kinds of stuff um but also it comes with free housing too So that would be what I would recommend you do.

Speaker 2 I want you to go to grad school. That's what I did.
I love it. And for my

Speaker 2 graduate counseling degree, I found the partnership with university that would fund it. And it was different than

Speaker 2 my other PhD that I paid for out of pocket.

Speaker 1 And I borrowed out of pocket and it nearly buried. Yeah.

Speaker 3 How are you? Yeah. How would a university get you those kind of resources? What are you looking for?

Speaker 2 I'm looking for, for you, in your situation, I'm looking for any job I can get on a college campus that has a tuition reimbursement.

Speaker 1 Janitor. Yeah, anything.

Speaker 1 Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. R.A.
Yeah. Resident assistant in the dorm.
Anything you can do.

Speaker 1 If it gets you in their program and cuts the tuition in half, and now you've got 30 turning into 15, they're paying you, and you've got 22 in the bank, ding, ding, we're done with the masters.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 And at this point, like, in terms of investments on the site, I mean, no,

Speaker 1 the best investment you can make is you. It's you.

Speaker 2 Okay, gotcha. Because here's what I want you to do.

Speaker 1 And here's what you do with investments. You're looking for ROI.
Sorry, John. Go ahead.
Yeah. What's the ROI on 80 grand versus 30 grand? That's what we're looking at.
What's the return on investment?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 John's telling you it's not there on the 80.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he's got a PhD in counseling. You just called the right guy.

Speaker 1 I have a PhD in DUMB. You don't need my opinion.

Speaker 2 Here's the other thing I want you to do. I want you to go through this program.
I started with a very particular group of people that I wanted to work with.

Speaker 2 I ended up in a radically different place because I had to do practicums and internships, and I had different professors, and I met different professionals along the way.

Speaker 2 If you get out and you owe $30,000 or $50,000, and you know clinical counselors starting out, don't make a ton of money.

Speaker 2 Then you are going to have to do not what you want to do, what you feel passionate about, what you feel called to do. You're going to have to do whatever they tell you to do.

Speaker 2 And I want you, I want a world of therapists out there that are not beholden to a bank but are beholden to their communities that's what i really really want because they're free to help everybody and anybody not they have to they have to pay their bills first and that's heartbreaking for me okay

Speaker 1 yeah yeah so go get them in get that master's degree just don't borrow money you seem like a person talking to you that 22 000 in the bank

Speaker 1 you ran this course already you knocked out three years you seem like a person that is very much a pragmatist very practical in your view on things. I'm going to encourage you to lean into that.

Speaker 1 Everything we're telling you to do is right with who you already are.

Speaker 2 And shoot weddings on the side. Shoot weddings all weekend.

Speaker 1 Go make cash. Get your camera out, man.
Go make some money. Shoot weddings all Saturdays, all Sundays, all Friday nights when you're in grad school and just work, work, work, work, work.

Speaker 1 You'll get it out, man.

Speaker 2 Good on you, dude.

Speaker 1 That's good.

Speaker 2 That's excellent. You don't hear a lot of undergrads coming out with $22,000 in the cash in the bank.

Speaker 1 That's fantastic. In three years.
In three years, yeah. Knock it out.
That's a hard worker. Because he did it to stay out of debt.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I wanted out of school.

Speaker 2 Man, I'd go back tomorrow.

Speaker 1 I had no desire to stay. I mean, I was working 60 hours a week, and all I wanted was out so I could focus on work.
And, God, man, it was so hard. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 John, let's circle back because if someone just tuned into this for the first time, John has a Ph.D. in counseling, a Ph.D.

Speaker 1 in higher ed, and he was serving as dean of students at several several different universities when he came here.

Speaker 1 He was at a local university is how we found him, and we knew he could do this job, and it's turned into a massive hit. And so

Speaker 1 he and I have had this discussion. He's actually featured before we hired him in our documentary on student loan debt called Borrowed Future that you can watch for free now on YouTube.

Speaker 1 So John and I have had this discussion many times. I have done,

Speaker 1 I've searched and searched and searched and searched and cannot find a single piece of research that

Speaker 1 is credible that says where you went to school is correlated with your level of success in any field.

Speaker 2 The research that exists there talks about it's less about the institution and more about the people you who also go to that institution.

Speaker 2 So basically the research says if you can get into some of these top, top, top, top, top tier schools,

Speaker 2 where you will benefit over the long haul is who your classmates are because they're going to go start businesses and they're going to go become these fans and they're going to call you because y'all are pals and you're buddies and you call the guys that you know and you went to school with.

Speaker 2 But for 99%.

Speaker 1 The number of times that people say, I want a cancer doctor because he went to that school.

Speaker 2 I say for 99% of us.

Speaker 1 Almost zero.

Speaker 2 Get out untethered.

Speaker 2 Please go to college and I'm high on college. You know that, Dave.
But go untethered. Get out so you don't own anybody.
I want a doctor that is not beholden to anyone but what is right.

Speaker 2 I want a therapist or a pastor who's not beholden to anybody but what is right.

Speaker 1 There it is. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Dr. John Deloney Ramsey personality is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage.
Mercy is with us. Hi, Mercy.
How are you?

Speaker 4 I'm doing good, Dave. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. Where do you live?

Speaker 4 I live in Temple, Texas.

Speaker 1 Cool. Welcome to Nashville.
Thank you. And how much debt have you paid off, Mercy?

Speaker 4 I have paid off $18,000.

Speaker 1 Good for you. And how long did that take?

Speaker 4 It took me around nine months, Dave.

Speaker 1 Good for you. And your range of income during that time?

Speaker 4 $42,000.

Speaker 1 $42,000, okay. And what kind of debt was the $18,000?

Speaker 4 That was my car, Dave.

Speaker 1 Yay!

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Mercy, how old are you?

Speaker 4 I'm 29 years old.

Speaker 1 Cool. And what is your country of origin? I hear an accent.

Speaker 4 Right, I was born and raised in Kenya, and I moved to the States three and a half years ago.

Speaker 1 Three and a half years ago. Yes, sir.
And 18 months ago, half that time, you started working on getting no, nine months ago, you started getting out of debt. You paid off $18,000 in debt.

Speaker 1 So how does a girl in Texas from Kenya run into the Ramsey stuff and decide to get out of debt?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I joined the military last year, January.

Speaker 1 Thank you for your service.

Speaker 4 Thank you. And then I, my first duty station for Fort Cavazos, Texas.
I got there, I needed a car, and I did what I thought I should do, got a car on payment.

Speaker 4 And then I think less than two weeks later, I ran into Rachel on Instagram and I liked her message so I looked into it and I found the Ramsey show and ever since that day I have not missed an episode so I just got fired up this is how I was

Speaker 4 what you teach is really how I was raised like if you don't have the money you don't buy it so that wait a minute they teach you common sense in Kenya

Speaker 4 yeah so I thought you know it just clicked and then the teachings from the Bible as well. So that resonated with me.
And I decided this debt had to go. And then that's when I just started.

Speaker 4 Double the payments, triple, living on nothing, rice and beans.

Speaker 4 And on April 30th, I became debt-free.

Speaker 1 Way to go. I'm so proud of you.
Thank you. Who was cheering you on along the way?

Speaker 4 So my family in Kenya, my son, Jeremy,

Speaker 4 my family, my American family in Colorado. And then after I became debt-free, I met my boyfriend Tony, who's also

Speaker 4 doing the Dave Ramsey plan, and he has been cheering me on Baby Step 3. And here we are today.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Very cool. Way to go, Tony.
Good stuff. Good stuff.
Okay, tell me how this thing works.

Speaker 1 Because you're obviously, you've been here only three and a half years. You joined the military.
How does that work with your citizenship? I don't know.

Speaker 4 So once you join, first of all, you acquire permanent residency, and then that's when you're able to join and serve. And then through the military is when I got my citizenship last year in June.

Speaker 1 All right. Yes.
Awesome. Wow, that's a good deal.
Thank you. Very cool.
Good for you. I'm proud of you.
How does it feel to be free again?

Speaker 4 It's weightless. I cannot explain it.
Like going to, doing my budget every month. and not seeing that extra payment that I would have paid the car dealership, it just, it feels, it's surreal.

Speaker 4 Like, I have so much money.

Speaker 1 And, you know,

Speaker 4 yeah, that $500 back is everything. And then I've also been able to, my sister and I are cash flowing my grandmother's house in Kenya.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 4 that has been a blessing. And my grandmother raised us after I lost my mom when I was 10.
And that has been, it's been a blessing.

Speaker 1 So you're able to buy her a house now?

Speaker 4 Yes, we're building a house.

Speaker 1 We're building it by cash. Yes.
Okay. Yes.
How long will it take to build it?

Speaker 4 Oh, we're almost done actually.

Speaker 4 And by December, she'll be in the house. And we started as soon as I, right before I became debt-free.
And then it's been more money just chunked on it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 How old is your grandmother? Oh,

Speaker 4 close to 80. Wow.
Yes.

Speaker 1 You're special.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 2 You're not even real, Mercy.

Speaker 1 This is amazing.

Speaker 1 This is so extraordinary.

Speaker 1 I mean, Americans, y'all got to hear this. She just traded an $18,000, $500 car payment and built her grandmother a house as a result in Kenya.
That's who raised her. That, you know,

Speaker 2 that's legacy right there.

Speaker 1 Wow. What's the picture? What's the house?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 that was our old house.

Speaker 1 That's where you grew up.

Speaker 4 That's what I grew up. Yeah.
Okay. I was, I think, built.

Speaker 1 And now you built her a new house. Yes.
All right. I'm so proud of you.
Thank you. You're amazing.

Speaker 4 The new house.

Speaker 1 Oh, there's the. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 I live in that house. That's pretty great.

Speaker 1 Look at the roof on that.

Speaker 1 Very cool.

Speaker 1 Those of you that aren't on YouTube, look deeply into your radio.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 So, Mercy.

Speaker 1 Mercy.

Speaker 2 I ran track in college, and the vast majority of my teammates were from Kenya. And it was chilling.

Speaker 1 Which means you were the slowest guy on the team.

Speaker 2 They used to call me Mazungo. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 By far.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 there was this understanding they got here, and there was so much opportunity and so much wide-eyed. and how much how can I participate right away right now

Speaker 2 and it feels like this idea that oh you can just get it all right now don't worry about it we'll get it later that got you the car payment but right so if you if you don't know if you don't know how insidious this stuff is everything shiny and new and this isn't just people who come from from other foreign countries this is all of us who are looking at our neighbors looking around we see these shiny new things and we get so taken with them that i want it right now and there's all these plans plans for oh that's a problem for future you right the you right now needs this right yeah what do you tell somebody that is just looking around seeing all this opportunity but they don't know that it's not really real right right so that's also a big thing that just not

Speaker 4 I think sacrifice for me would be the biggest one just knowing that you know what it's not When Dave says you're driving and the guy, the car next to you is really nice and big and you want it, but it's all payments.

Speaker 4 So that really,

Speaker 4 I got it. And I said, I'm not going to feel jealous or want a life that I cannot afford.
I will do this brick by brick.

Speaker 4 And yeah, so like you say, we get here and we're told you have to have a credit score. You have to have a credit card.
And, you know, we all believe that until, because they say that's the only way.

Speaker 4 But no, it's not the only way. There's a better way.

Speaker 1 You know, Mercy's a hero. You know who the real hero is? The grandmother that raised that.
I'm telling you. The grandmother that created that.
I'm telling you, man. That woman.

Speaker 1 That's who we need to get on the air.

Speaker 1 It's really amazing.

Speaker 1 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 Will you do me and Dave an honor?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Can you do a debt-free scream in Swahili? This will be the first one ever.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 And then you can do one if you want to do another one in English, but if you want to do it at Swahili, I've never, have never had a Swahili free scream in debt-owned scream, have we?

Speaker 1 No, for sure we haven't. Would you do that?

Speaker 2 That would be amazing. I would love that.

Speaker 4 I would love to do both.

Speaker 1 I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 1 You're absolutely amazing. I will tell you this before we do that, that all the data that we have says that someone who comes to this country from another country legally,

Speaker 1 I'm going to

Speaker 1 pronounce it carefully, like she did, comes here under the law,

Speaker 1 you are four times more likely to become a millionaire than someone who is born in America.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of supposition on why that might be so, but some of it is that,

Speaker 1 you know, you actually appreciate the the fact that we have freedom and opportunity and you're going to take advantage of it?

Speaker 1 And so you have a high likelihood, a much higher likelihood than maybe someone else that sits next to you there

Speaker 1 at the post of becoming a millionaire because of what you're doing. And now add the Ramsey stuff to that, the debt-free stuff to that.
Work as well.

Speaker 1 This woman's going, oh, it's amazing. Jesus.
All right, Mercy from Temple, Texas. What a story.
$18,000 paid off in nine months, making 42 from Kenya. We're going to start it out with Swahili.

Speaker 1 Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free screen.

Speaker 4 Tatu, Billy, Moja, Sina Denny.

Speaker 1 Woof, woof, woof, woo, woo,

Speaker 1 11!

Speaker 1 Yeah!

Speaker 2 That was rad. Thank you for that.
That was a gift to me. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Good call, John. Good call.
All right, you want to do an American one too? Yes. All right, let's do one English.
English, Daniel. Here we go.
All right. Three, two, one.

Speaker 1 I'm dead free.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, baby. Woo!

Speaker 1 Oh, and I built my grandmother a house, too. Wow.

Speaker 2 Amazing, Mercy.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey show.

Speaker 1 For those of you on YouTube and on podcasts, this will be our last segment for the day. You can pick up the other segment that we're going to do

Speaker 1 on the Ramsey Network app and you can join it for free. Just go to Ramsey Solutions or go to download the network app on Apple or Google Play or whatever.

Speaker 1 And you can join it free and you listen to all.

Speaker 1 the whole show or you can listen to the last segment whatever you want to do it's all there for free from the ramsey network app you can also enter uh questions this question comes from the ramsey network app to ask a question without ever having to call in you can click the link in the show notes or download the app for free.

Speaker 1 Once you're in the app, you can navigate to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Click ask a question and submit your question for the show.

Speaker 2 All right, the question is from Brianna. It says, I was one month from my lease being up and I had to leave early due to a domestic violence incident.

Speaker 2 I notified the property management company and sent them the email with proof of the protection order, but just the other day I went to check my credit and they put a $4,000 debt into collections.

Speaker 2 I'm appealing it, but if that doesn't work, should I just pay it?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 What happened to you is wrong and horrible, but it does not release you from a lease.

Speaker 1 A protection order does not get you out of a lease.

Speaker 2 You're appealing to their mercy at that point.

Speaker 1 Yeah. If they want to let you out,

Speaker 1 if you were one of my tenants, I would let you out. But you can't just send them the email and go, I'm out.
It's not a get out of jail free card. No pun intended.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you are liable for that last month. I don't know how it got to $4,000 for one month.
You had one month left on the lease and now they're going to $4,000. I'm not sure what the flip were you renting.

Speaker 2 Or they added a bunch of fees

Speaker 1 or something. Or maybe the Bozo stayed behind, torched the place.
I don't know. I don't know what happened here, but you are still liable.

Speaker 1 Even though you had a protection order, even though you sent an email. That does not, this is not a one-way thing where you just go, oh, I'm out.

Speaker 1 No, you're not out unless they choose to let you out and they didn't respond. You don't have a response from them, or at least you didn't mention it if you do, saying we're going to let you go.

Speaker 1 If you've got that response, then you owe zero because they said we're going to let you go so that you're free. But I don't think you got that.

Speaker 1 I think you just sent this to them and you thought that got you out. That's the way this is worded anyway.
And it does not get you out. I'm not an attorney, but it doesn't get you out.
So,

Speaker 1 you know, what I would do, I don't know if you need to appeal appeal it, I would just call the property management company.

Speaker 1 I'd go in person.

Speaker 1 If you're in the town, go over there and try to meet with a senior person

Speaker 1 and see if you can negotiate.

Speaker 1 You're going to have to pay some money

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 you just kind of walk, you were in a horrible situation. You needed to leave.

Speaker 1 I'm not telling you you did something wrong, but the assumption that you made that it got you out of the lease was incorrect.

Speaker 1 And so you're going to owe some money. Now, you got to go figure out what and what you can settle it for.
If it's a $4,000

Speaker 1 of legitimate charges or a bunch of them that are just beefed up or whatever, you might settle it for that equal to that one month's rent.

Speaker 1 But you're going to end up paying something, I think. I don't think the judge is going to go, oh, well, you had a protection order.
You don't have to honor your contract.

Speaker 1 It's like saying, I got a protection order, so I had to pay my car payment.

Speaker 1 No, that's not how it works. So, sorry.
Yeah, you're going to end up paying something, Brianna.

Speaker 1 And the sooner you can get to somebody and get a settlement negotiation begun, you're better off to do it in person and you're better off to do it with the actual people, not the stupid lawyers.

Speaker 1 But if you can get that pulled off, that's going to be your best route because you're not going to get out of Dodge on this without paying something. Joe's in Chesapeake, Virginia.
Hi, Joe.

Speaker 1 How are you?

Speaker 3 Hey, Dave. How's it going?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 3 So, beginning of this year, we decided, my my wife and I decided to take our debt seriously. And

Speaker 3 now we have paid off $30,000 in student loans and credit card debt.

Speaker 1 Good for you.

Speaker 3 Mostly from

Speaker 3 my job. And I've been fixing and flipping lawnmowers, trucks, equipment, tractors, all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1 Cool. How much money you made doing that?

Speaker 3 Honestly,

Speaker 3 normally about... $4,000 to $5,000 a month.

Speaker 1 Wow. Good for you.
Yeah. You're good at this.

Speaker 3 I've been working hard. I'm a caterpillar mechanic.

Speaker 1 That's my career. So I just kind of

Speaker 3 buy what I can and fix it up.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you know how to turn a wrench. Good for you, man.

Speaker 3 Yes, sir. Yep.

Speaker 3 My question is,

Speaker 3 I'm at the point where I need to start my emergency fund, three to six-month emergency fund.

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 3 And I've been looking at the high-yield savings account.

Speaker 3 And I see that the rate of return is the one I found that I applied for was 5.31%.

Speaker 3 My mortgage, I only owe $119 on it, the house that we built ourselves,

Speaker 3 and the

Speaker 3 interest rate on that is 4.3%.

Speaker 3 So, my question is: why should I not just put all of my income into the high-yield savings account as long as the rate of return is greater than the interest owed?

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 1 one of the things that I've seen is if you make 1% on $100,000, it's $1,000.

Speaker 1 You don't have $1,000 problem. You have a $119,000 problem.

Speaker 1 The secret to paying off your mortgage is not making 1% spread on a high-yield savings account. The secret to paying off your mortgage is do what you did with the $30,000 and pay off your mortgage.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 The actual math of

Speaker 1 this theory that you're running won't buy you a biscuit.

Speaker 1 okay that's what i'm saying so you're making more money on tractors than you'll make on this in a week

Speaker 1 uh-huh

Speaker 1 you follow me

Speaker 1 yes sir if you got a hundred thousand at five percent and a hundred thousand at four percent the spread is one percent one percent of one hundred thousand dollars is one thousand dollars per year

Speaker 1 you make that in a week flipping tractors

Speaker 1 okay so it's not it's not enough it's not enough to screw with

Speaker 1 So just pay off your mortgage. Get your emergency fund done, and then go ahead and go through the baby steps four, five, and six, and you'll be in great shape, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I like to take that thousand bucks and divide it monthly.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 $83.

Speaker 2 That's your sleep tax. And you'll more than make that back.

Speaker 1 $83 a month.

Speaker 2 To sleep deeper than you've ever slept in your life because nobody can take your house away.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Just pay it off as fast as you can. Just nail it.
Hammer. Do it.
Do it. Do it.
Do it. Don't mess around with it.
Don't play games. Good for you.
Good question. All right.

Speaker 1 Sam's in Syracuse. Hi, Sam.
How are you?

Speaker 3 I'm good, Dave. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 3 Hey, so I kind of, I feel like it's a dumb question, but

Speaker 1 you're in the right place. I have been.

Speaker 2 A couple of dumb guys. We got you.

Speaker 1 Hey, so.

Speaker 3 I've been with my girlfriend now for almost a little over a year.

Speaker 3 I accumulated a large sum of debt before I got with her while I was in the military.

Speaker 3 And I

Speaker 3 want to move forward with our relationship.

Speaker 3 We've discussed it for the last, you know, two months or so.

Speaker 3 I have the money set aside for the ring.

Speaker 1 How much?

Speaker 3 About $3,500.

Speaker 1 How much in debt do you have?

Speaker 3 I would say it's roughly around $50,000.

Speaker 1 And what's it on?

Speaker 3 um it's uh it's a few things um so one of them is a credit card which is twenty five

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 3 one is from a repo from a previous relationship what do you make a year i'm actually

Speaker 3 I make about 65 a year I would say I clone about you 24 4200 26 26 okay like almost like I've done this before okay

Speaker 1 um and you're you're saying you're saying you want to wait to get out of debt to get married?

Speaker 3 And that's the thing, is like

Speaker 3 I've heard a few different

Speaker 3 answers to that question.

Speaker 1 Unless they're this answer, they're wrong. The correct answer is get married.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 If you're pledged to get out of debt and she's pledged to get out of debt with you and you're aligned and in agreement on your money, get married.

Speaker 3 That's one of the big reasons why I fell in love with her.

Speaker 3 I was very open.

Speaker 1 Don't tell her I think I've got $50,000. Tell her I have $49,462 in debt.
And it's exactly this.

Speaker 1 And this is exactly what I'm going to do to get out because I'm the kind of man you want to marry because I'm getting this done.

Speaker 1 I'm a go-getter.

Speaker 1 That's who you need to be. Don't give me, I think I make, I think I'm in debt.
Get it exact and kill it. This is the Ramsey Show.