Quit Aiming Forever and Shoot Something Already!

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships.

Speaker 1 George Camill, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality, would be my co-host today. He's also the host of the super popular YouTube show, The George Camill Show with a K.

Speaker 1 Check it out on the Ramsey Networks. It's all there.
The phone number here is 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 Dusty's in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hi, Dusty.
How are you?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave, you're doing pretty good.

Speaker 1 Good. What's up?

Speaker 2 I have a question on what I should do. I'm planning on building a house on my parents' land during the next year or two, and I want to know how to go about it.

Speaker 2 So I've been listening to your show for about four months now. And in that time, I've been fortunate enough.
I've paid off about $26,000 in debt.

Speaker 1 Good for you.

Speaker 2 And I'll be debt-free right now in about the next three months. I should be completely debt-free.

Speaker 2 And I want to know, should I I,

Speaker 2 so I live next to my parents right now in a tiny house that I built last year.

Speaker 2 So my question is, should I

Speaker 2 save up for a down payment and get a construction loan to finance the house? I'm doing a Bondominium, one of the Barndo kits.

Speaker 2 Or should I just save up and try to pay it all out in cash and be able to do it

Speaker 2 over the next probably three years to be able to build the entire thing?

Speaker 2 I have been in construction for the past 13 years, so I'm pretty handy on that stuff.

Speaker 1 Cool. So you're single?

Speaker 2 No, no, I'm married.

Speaker 1 I'm married with

Speaker 2 one kid and I got one on the way.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 In a tiny home? That's impressive.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Or crazy.
I'm not sure which, but yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's also that's also a big factor. And now my wife, it's um it's not I mean, it's about 500 square feet.
Um

Speaker 2 she she wants us she said she's okay in it, that she doesn't need

Speaker 2 immediate big house or anything. But I don't know, I kind of feel a sense of urgency with the next kick coming on the way.

Speaker 1 Okay, so explain to me the land is going to be retitled to you.

Speaker 2 So, a couple years ago, I did a business on the land, and they had to do a quick claim deed just to put my name on it.

Speaker 2 So, I don't know if that would on the whole piece of land?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, on the whole piece.

Speaker 1 Okay, so your parents live on the land too?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So, you now own the property that they live on?

Speaker 2 Well, see, I'm not sure. I mean, at the quick claim deed, I'm added on to it,

Speaker 2 but they're also still there.

Speaker 2 I mean, they still have their name on the land, and my name is added to it also.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And I'm guessing this is generational land.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Was it your grandpa's?

Speaker 2 No. No.
My dad bought it. Now, his plans are he wants to give each of his kids a portion of the land.
It's split into five lots. He owned all five lots, and they're all tied into the same

Speaker 1 it's already platted and subdivided?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Deed one of the lots to you, then.

Speaker 1 Exclusively you.

Speaker 1 Without their name on it.

Speaker 1 okay do not do this or your parents own the property the dirt under your barndominium no

Speaker 1 or own a portion of the dirt no

Speaker 1 so okay the quid claim deed was probably either done poorly or wrong you guys need to look at that because if they

Speaker 1 they probably they I guess they put some percentage of an undivided interest or something into your name

Speaker 1 but that means you now own all a portion of all those lots that are your brothers and sisters.

Speaker 1 Right. That was dumb.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 It's unclean, and when you do things that are unclean like that, because everybody's just going to get along, then they don't get along, then you're completely screwed.

Speaker 1 So let me ask you what happens if you get these tracts of land or how big? Five acres, you said?

Speaker 1 Two and a half. Two and a half.
Okay, so you get two and a half acres completely in your name. You build a barndominium on it, and three years later, you decide to move to Kansas City.

Speaker 1 Can you sell it? You own it, but relationally, is everybody going to lose their freaking minds?

Speaker 2 Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's a order. 100% I would not build on it then.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's where I grew up, and

Speaker 2 I'm pretty, me and my wife are both hard set on raising.

Speaker 1 Let me just tell you what.

Speaker 1 You're 100% going to stay there if if it goes toxic, if it goes sideways, if your brother gets into cocaine, if your mother has dementia and shoots somebody, all kinds of crap, man.

Speaker 1 I've been doing this 35 years. Nothing works like you think it's going to work.
When stuff happens, you've got to have some autonomy and you don't have any.

Speaker 1 It's as if you never left home and live in their basement.

Speaker 1 This is really bad. I personally wouldn't do what you're doing, and I would advise you against it.

Speaker 1 Not because I I think your parents are bad people, I don't, or that you're bad people, or that you really don't think you're going to stay there.

Speaker 1 You really think you're going to stay there, and you really might.

Speaker 1 But the truth is, most people don't. The truth is, 40 years from now, the chances of you being on that piece of dirt is almost zero.

Speaker 1 That's the truth. People just don't.
Life changes. Things come up.
Different things occur in family situations. You don't want to be over there.

Speaker 1 I don't know what's in your future that's positive or negative that would push you away from that dirt, but you have no ability to leave it with the deal you're doing. And that is just bad medicine.

Speaker 1 And if you're going to go forward, though, at least for God's sakes, get it in your name. Don't be building on something that's got your parents' name on the dirt.

Speaker 1 100% of that lot is in you and your wife's name. At least you've got the legal option.
of turning the property over if you need to, even though relationally you don't think you would ever want to.

Speaker 1 I get get that you don't think that's going to happen, Dan, but what you don't get is you think you're doing six things that cause cancer. I'm a cancer doctor.
I've seen cancer for 35 years.

Speaker 1 You're doing all the stuff that causes cancer, and you're going to have cancer. And

Speaker 1 I don't know how to stop you from doing it. So that's the problem.
And so I have to come at this from the negative because it's what you and I see every day, George.

Speaker 3 Yeah, these are handcuffs made of dirt. So is there an alternative here, Dave, where he goes, all right, I'm going to buy land elsewhere.

Speaker 3 That is mine that I will build on.

Speaker 1 That's what I would do.

Speaker 3 That feels like the best alternative.

Speaker 1 You know, even if it's down the street, I mean, in the neighborhood, but my kids live, you know, in a 30-minute radius from us. I would be heartbroken if they moved to Kansas City.

Speaker 1 You know, I'd be heartbroken if they moved away with my grandkids. I don't want that.

Speaker 1 But I don't get to decide that.

Speaker 1 They get to decide that.

Speaker 1 And he's surrendering his autonomy. He's surrendering his ability to make a decision for his family unit,

Speaker 1 regardless, no matter what happens. It's like it's chiseled in concrete.

Speaker 3 And he might be pouring six figures into something that he can't get back out.

Speaker 1 He can't get it out. It's frightening.
Because he.

Speaker 3 We want real estate to be an investment.

Speaker 1 Well, it's going to go up in value, but if you're unwilling to sell it under any circumstances because of the dirt handcuffs.

Speaker 3 Four siblings now that are upset about it. That's

Speaker 1 the number of times I've gotten a call from

Speaker 1 Dusty,

Speaker 1 your wife, that says, my husband and I built on his dad's property and we can't sell it. I've gotten that call 50 times.
Easy.

Speaker 1 And it's never, it's never a good call. So you guys do what you want to do.
I'm going to try to talk you out of it. I doubt I did, though.
This is the Ramsey Show.

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Did we mention that? Dan's in Mobile, Alabama. Hi, Dan.
Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Thanks, Dave.

Speaker 1 Thanks for taking my call. Sure.
What's up?

Speaker 2 All right. So I just graduated from undergraduate college, debt-free.

Speaker 1 Woo.

Speaker 2 And I am planning on going to graduate school in clinical psychology, but I'm going to have to go into debt and take student loans to pay for the degree. Is this a bad decision?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay, so what should I do instead?

Speaker 1 That's a good question.

Speaker 3 You said you had to, as if someone was forcing you to.

Speaker 1 Why are you going to grad school for critical psychology? What's the goal?

Speaker 2 To be a practicing clinical psychologist in private practice.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you have to have a master's to do that.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Okay. And where did you get your undergrad?

Speaker 2 At the local public school, South Alabama.

Speaker 1 Okay. And do they offer a master's?

Speaker 2 Not to my knowledge. They don't offer a master's.
I know other programs

Speaker 2 near me offer a master's, but

Speaker 2 I think that the application deadline for that is too late. So would you recommend me

Speaker 2 taking

Speaker 2 a year off and applying to master's programs?

Speaker 1 Why did you okay? You went through the undergrad and got a degree in psychology in undergrad and you paid cash for it.

Speaker 1 That's right. And then why did you suddenly decide I have to go to a school I can't afford to do my grad work?

Speaker 1 Because you could have gone to a school you could afford, but you chose not to and now these deadlines have passed you.

Speaker 1 Why? Right.

Speaker 2 Well, I assumed, I guess, that I needed to get a doctorate degree in clinical psychology to

Speaker 2 practice.

Speaker 1 You don't. You have to have a master's.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Masters will get you licensed in most states anyway.

Speaker 1 There may be a few that require a doctorate now. I don't know.

Speaker 3 What's it going to cost you?

Speaker 2 Well, it's quite a bit. It's $35,000 a year.

Speaker 3 And you've researched all the programs, even online ones, and that's the best deal?

Speaker 1 No, that's not the best deal.

Speaker 1 You can get this degree for $20,000.

Speaker 3 That's the point. Have we done the research to see if we can find a more affordable option and then see what it would take to cash flow that?

Speaker 2 okay, that's what I would do.

Speaker 2 Some programs that I thought were ridiculous, they were around like 70,000 or some with 50, and I didn't even consider those.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's good. You did do a little shopping, but

Speaker 1 you can get this degree for half of what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 Okay, and nobody cares where you went to school, by the way. All they cares: did you pass your boards and can you help them?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 No one ever went to a marriage counselor and said, wait, wait. Let me check the framework.

Speaker 1 Where'd you go to school? Nobody ever did that.

Speaker 1 Ever. All they want to know is, can Dan guide me with his psychological training through this rough spot in my life? I need a guide.
Can he help me? That's really what they want to know.

Speaker 1 You want to be a healer. Good for you.

Speaker 1 You're a good person. Yeah.
And you,

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 if,

Speaker 1 I mean, you called to ask, I think, number one, even, let's pretend you had $50,000 cash in your bank account. I would still tell you not to pay $35,000 for this.

Speaker 1 Still tell you to go get a better deal, a better deal.

Speaker 1 Because there's something about this particular critical psychology path at this particular location that romanced you.

Speaker 3 Or it was just a one option, and that's now what I got to do. Because we didn't look for more options.

Speaker 1 So, no, I would not go in debt because here's the thing. You got to get out.

Speaker 1 It's a two-year process to finish your master's, get licensed, pass your boards, and then you've got to get out and actually start making money.

Speaker 1 And in most states, you're going to have to put some hours under your belt before you can get licensed.

Speaker 1 So, it's going to be a while before you make any money to pay this, to get a return on investment into this degree.

Speaker 1 And even then,

Speaker 1 you're going to have to choose carefully how you choose to practice psychology because you can do it.

Speaker 1 Psychology, not as bad as sociology, but they both are very tough. You can get into some very underpaid situations with those.

Speaker 1 And, okay, now I make $26,000 a year after spending all this money as a school counselor. No.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Okay. And people come out with $200,000 in,

Speaker 1 you know, you're not, Dan, but people come out with $200,000 in student loans because they did their graduate work at some school they shouldn't have and they end up in a school counselor role.

Speaker 1 This is just don't do that. I'm begging you.
Use some common sense or use some wisdom. Pay cash for it and pay less for it because it's going to be a while before you monetize it.

Speaker 3 And that might mean taking a year off and working your tail off and getting a few side jobs and savings.

Speaker 1 It might, or it might mean going and sitting down in the, you know, some of these schools, they actually need students. So, oh, the deadline passed.
Oh, kiss my butt.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go sit down with the guy who runs the administration office and go, hey, I got money. You want him in? And they're going, oh, look, an opening just occurred.
Look at that.

Speaker 1 We can squeeze that deadline thing. Oh, you know, I mean, come on.
Yeah, seriously. It's not like they have a line around the block at most of these schools to get into

Speaker 1 graduate work on psych. So,

Speaker 1 sorry, it's not, you're not getting into law school or med school here. This is psych.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, seriously,

Speaker 1 I think you go poke around, try to stay on the track. But if you end up taking six months off or you end up taking a year off, okay.

Speaker 1 Then go pile up a bunch of money and you have a little bit of a war chest to go out this. Irwin is with us in Cleveland, Ohio.
Hi, Irwin. How are you?

Speaker 2 Hi, Dave and George. I'm way better than I deserve.
Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1 Oh, good. We're glad to have you, sir.
What's up?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I've got a question for you here. I've got around $200,000 left on my mortgage, a 3% interest rate, and I have been absolutely laser focused on getting that paid off.

Speaker 2 And so the strategy that I've taken is I opened a high interest savings account, which gets me about 4.125%.

Speaker 2 And rather than paying any extra money on my mortgage, I've been putting it in that account. And I've got around $120,000 saved up in there right now.

Speaker 1 And your high-yield serving account pays what?

Speaker 2 About 4.125%.

Speaker 1 And your mortgage interest rate is what?

Speaker 2 3%.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So I had spoke with my financial advisor about that strategy, and I put it into ChatGPT, which seems to know everything.

Speaker 2 And both of them came back and said that that was a good strategy to put it in there.

Speaker 2 And then once I hit that $200,000, just pay it off in one lump sum because I'm actually making more money on that interest than I would be if I just paid it off slowly as I went.

Speaker 2 So I just wanted to ask you guys if you thought that was a good idea or not.

Speaker 3 You called the right place. I don't think it's a good idea.
I'm going to disagree with AI. and tell you that it's much wiser to pay off your mortgage.
It's what I did, Erwin, personally.

Speaker 3 And we did our millionaire study. Not one said, well, the money I would have put toward the mortgage, I invested instead, and that's how I became wealthy.

Speaker 3 We found that wealthy people actually pay off their mortgages 10 years on average. And so I would absolutely pay it off, and I wouldn't wait until you had $200,000 to do it.

Speaker 1 So, dude, 1% on $120,000 is $1,200.

Speaker 1 We don't have a $1,200 problem.

Speaker 1 We have a $200,000 problem.

Speaker 1 You have fixed the $200,000 problem because you're a genius and you're able to live on less than you make and save money.

Speaker 2 Okay. So you're saying, because what I've been doing is taking my bonus checks and

Speaker 1 I'm saying all of this gyration you're doing, fire your financial advisor and quit looking up crap on the internet to get advice for anything

Speaker 1 except whose birthday it is. Oh my gosh.
No, no. Yeah.
Pay cash as fast as you can, as hard as you can on this mortgage. You're doing all these double backflips.

Speaker 1 You look like one one of these Olympic divers, all for $1,200.

Speaker 1 And $1,200

Speaker 1 isn't spit against the measure of $200,000.

Speaker 3 Pay off the mortgage and start investing that payment you were making, and then come back and tell us it was a movie.

Speaker 1 Wait, the $1,200 is income. It's taxable.
So it's not $1,200,000. It's $800,000.

Speaker 1 You did all of this for less than $1,000.

Speaker 1 AI ought to be ashamed of itself, but it's not that smart. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 George Camille, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host on the debt-free stage in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Dane is with us.
Hi, Dane. How are you?

Speaker 5 Hi, Dave and George. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than we deserve, brother. Welcome.
Where do you live?

Speaker 5 Live in Sacramento, Dave.

Speaker 1 Oh, beautiful. Love Sacramento.
Welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you paid?

Speaker 5 Sure. So $216,765,000.21.

Speaker 1 Excellent. And how long did this take?

Speaker 5 It took eight years and four months.

Speaker 1 Wow. And your range of income during that time?

Speaker 5 Sure. So it started about $80,000 and then up to $128,000.

Speaker 1 Cool. What do you do for a living?

Speaker 5 I'm in client relations sales for a local government association in California.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, that would put you in Sacramento for sure.

Speaker 1 Okay. Cool.
Very cool. And the $217,000, what kind of debt was this?

Speaker 5 It was my house, Dave.

Speaker 5 Woo!

Speaker 1 A guy in California owns his house paid for. That is really weird.
Wow. Way to go, weirdo.
I'm proud of you. Thank you.
What's the house on the job?

Speaker 5 Well, I actually had a few kind of life changes, so I actually sold it recently. So that was kind of part of the journey selling the house.

Speaker 1 Ah, I got you. Okay.
All right. Well, good for you, man.
Congratulations. How's it feel to be free?

Speaker 5 It feels amazing.

Speaker 5 It feels free. You know, you feel so relaxed and can do so many other things.

Speaker 5 Obviously, coming out here to Nashville to be a part of your show today and obviously being able to be more generous too, whether at church or just everyday life.

Speaker 5 It's great.

Speaker 1 So in the selling of the house, you buy another one then later? No,

Speaker 1 not right now. You will someday or

Speaker 1 just kind of got to get through this process. Well, good for you, bro.

Speaker 1 Well done, man. All right.
What happened eight years ago that put you on this journey? What was the moment that woke you up? What's your

Speaker 1 why? Why did you do this? And what motivated you? How did you get connected to us?

Speaker 5 Sure, yeah. No,

Speaker 5 it was actually in September of 2015. I was on a work trip and was traveling around and the show was on the radio station that I was listening to and I hadn't heard of the show at all.

Speaker 5 And I

Speaker 5 thought I was doing pretty well. I had paid off my credit card debt and student loan debt and just figured I was going to have a 30-year mortgage to

Speaker 5 manage for the next 30 years. And I think, Dave, at the time, you were yelling at someone to pay off their mortgage.
And so

Speaker 5 that took how important that is. And

Speaker 5 I listened to it and I started thinking about it. And I was like, well, this would,

Speaker 5 I can do this too. And obviously for the rest of 2015, I kind of wasn't serious about it.
And then in 2016,

Speaker 5 it was game on.

Speaker 1 Okay. Very cool.
What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is you paid off your house?

Speaker 1 Oh, boy.

Speaker 5 I mean, a few things.

Speaker 5 For me the budget was key.

Speaker 5 Certainly having that financial plan, you know, telling your money where to go every month was important.

Speaker 5 Financial Peace University,

Speaker 5 my son's here as well and their mom, Kristen, got me into an FBU class about five years ago. That was obviously key.
And

Speaker 5 so that was, definitely want to thank her for that.

Speaker 5 you know, a reason, right? A reason to

Speaker 5 change your family tree, right? And then a community of support was helpful as well.

Speaker 5 So I would listen to your guys' show and those times when I would kind of get down, a little discouraged about the journey that I was on. And this is, you know, I've still got four or five years left.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 5 it would help.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 That's impressive. And, you know, the kids got a front row.
See, were they even born when you started the journey?

Speaker 5 They were, yes.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And you went, was this part of legacy of just, I want my kids to grow up not knowing debt?

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, just, you know, having, having them see to kind of go through that,

Speaker 5 the journey and the challenge and that they can be debt-free as as well. And they were actually very involved.
You know, we built kind of a debt chain at home and

Speaker 5 they would cut the links off of it when we'd pay off.

Speaker 3 It's a core memory right there.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 5 just, you know, one of the things I just wanted to say, too, is that we just,

Speaker 5 I know back then, you know, I said 2015 was when I first heard the message, and I'm sure, you know, Dave and George, it was the 10,000th time you guys had said that, but that day it reached me

Speaker 5 and changed my life. So thank you so much to you and the team for what you guys do.

Speaker 1 Well, and this day,

Speaker 1 your debt-free scream is reaching someone today.

Speaker 1 So it does go full circle.

Speaker 3 The ripple effect.

Speaker 1 It does go full circle. You're paying it forward by celebrating this so openly.
Congratulations. Very, very well done.
Powerful, Dane. Very powerful.
Good stuff.

Speaker 1 So the why is the boys, and they got to watch the whole thing happen, and they'll never have debt because they've seen how dad acts.

Speaker 5 Certainly so. Yeah, it kind of came from my

Speaker 5 mom here as well and they taught me the gave me the foundation of hard work and sacrificing for your goals, my parents.

Speaker 5 So it's, you know, obviously we all get somewhere with someone else and I try to do my part going forward.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well congratulations, brother.
Very proud of you. All right, bring the boys up.
Let's introduce them. What are their names and ages? Sure.

Speaker 5 So this is Cohen right here. He's nine.
And this is Caden. He's 11.

Speaker 1 All right. Very cool.
Very cool. Well, congratulations, you guys.
You're heroes. So proud of you.
So you say the key is the budget and what else?

Speaker 5 Certainly the FPU, Financial Peace University, and I think, you know, like I said, having a reason for the community.

Speaker 1 And the community. That was the other thing.
That's important.

Speaker 1 Plug it into something that is telling you to do it and that is supporting you rather than tearing you down because there's always some bozo in the background yelling not to do it too. So

Speaker 1 you guys, you really worked your tail off and pulled this off. I'm so proud of y'all.
Way to go, hero.

Speaker 5 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 Yeah, those young men have got a dad they can definitely look up to. That's pretty cool stuff.
All right, Dane and Caden and Cohen. Ah, here we go, baby.
217,000 paid off. House and everything

Speaker 1 in California. Did this in eight years and four months, making 80 to 128?

Speaker 1 Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream.
Okay,

Speaker 2 three, two, one.

Speaker 2 We're debt-free.

Speaker 3 Mortgage free mortgage free in California. Those two things just don't go together.

Speaker 1 You don't hear that in a sentence very often. I thought it couldn't be done.

Speaker 1 It's impossible. Wow.
The things you and George teach are impossible. Oh, wait.
Until you do it. Oh, wait.
Then there's Dane. Yeah.
He kind of messed up. Dane screwed it up.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 that whole...

Speaker 1 No one does that. So you can't say that anymore.

Speaker 1 We messed that up.

Speaker 3 I'm curious, Dave, doing this for 30 years now, like he said, you know, have things changed as you've been yelling at people to pay off their mortgage?

Speaker 1 I'm getting accused of yelling a lot in this segment. I've noticed I'm forceful with my opinions, but I usually don't yell.

Speaker 3 Well, not unless someone needs a little slapping around.

Speaker 1 That's rare these days. Okay.

Speaker 3 But are more and more people saying, I'm going to hang on to the mortgage because of fear, because of the market? Have you seen a trend over 30 years when it comes to mortgage payoff?

Speaker 1 You know, debt payoff in general, there's always been somebody trying to find a shortcut.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm going to borrow money and instead of paying off my debt, I'm going to put it in a high-yield savings. Or,

Speaker 1 you know, there's always some kind of

Speaker 1 hang law instead of checking it. Instead of just doing it,

Speaker 1 we human beings look for a scam. We look for an angle.
We want an angle. And

Speaker 1 just do it.

Speaker 1 Stand around, talk about it. You know, you could have already had the garage swept while you were discussing how to sweep it.
Sweep the dad gum garage. I mean, come on.

Speaker 1 That sounds like my dad right there, right? I mean, you know, you've been talking about this and trying to decide whether you're going to get a blower or a broom or what kind of broom.

Speaker 1 Just get started.

Speaker 1 Just sweep. You know, I mean, everybody's got to try to find some thing where they figured out the universe.
Well, the universe has already figured it out. God's figured it out.
He told you.

Speaker 1 Borrower, slave to the lender. How long you want to be a slave? Stop it.
You know, you got to get into it. And so that's what Dane did.
He leaned into it and he knocked it out. There's no angle.

Speaker 1 But it's human nature. So yeah, for 35 years, I've been hearing people looking for an angle.

Speaker 1 You know, how can I keep this debt and still be debt-free?

Speaker 3 My financial advisor told me it.

Speaker 1 My broke friend that I went to happy hour with, seven beers and two joints later, told me I should keep my mortgage.

Speaker 1 Well, of course he did. He's a moron.

Speaker 3 And then we did our millionaire study, and it turns out millionaires actually pay off their mortgage in 10.2 years on average.

Speaker 3 The baby steppers pay it off in seven years on average, and Dane is right there in the middle. Yeah.
Eight years, four months.

Speaker 1 Yeah, perfect.

Speaker 3 He's He's on. Imagine seven years from now, eight years from now, you could have no mortgage if you wanted to, if you so chose.

Speaker 1 But don't discuss how to sweep the garage. Just sweep the garage.

Speaker 3 Start sweeping. Extra payments.

Speaker 1 We're talking about your dad gum theories. Don't overcomplicate.
Aim, aim, aim. You don't need strategies.
Aim. Shoot something.

Speaker 3 Josh. See, he does yell.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey show.

Speaker 3 We have it on tape.

Speaker 1 George Campbell, Ramsey personality. Is my co-host.
Karen is with us in Los Angeles. Hi, Karen.
How are you?

Speaker 6 Hi, good. Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I have

Speaker 6 some questions. Well, one question.

Speaker 6 I recently, my husband passed away.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 When did he pass?

Speaker 7 He passed June 15th.

Speaker 1 Ooh, just the other day. Okay.

Speaker 6 Wow. Yeah, just a minute ago.

Speaker 1 Oh, my. How long were y'all married?

Speaker 6 24 years.

Speaker 1 How old was he?

Speaker 6 55 years old.

Speaker 1 Wow. What happened?

Speaker 1 He was,

Speaker 6 you know, it started with COVID, but what happened was he had a heart attack

Speaker 6 and he died in his sleep.

Speaker 1 I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 How are you doing?

Speaker 2 Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 It's a roller coaster. I have my good days and I have my bad days.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 I feel very grateful in so many ways because he did die in his sleep. And I kept telling him that he was in need of a doctor.
And I kept pushing and pushing, and he wouldn't listen to me.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 6 I knew something was going to happen.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 6 I was expecting it. And so that's a weird thing to say.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you're doing okay, though?

Speaker 6 I'm trying. I'm worried about my kids.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 How old are your kids?

Speaker 6 23 and 17.

Speaker 3 Are they living at the house with you?

Speaker 6 Yes, they live at the house, and we've been staying very close, but in two weeks I go back to work. My work has been very, very generous with my time.

Speaker 6 But in two weeks, I go back to work, and so they're on their own a lot.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 1 the 23-year-old needs to get to work, I guess.

Speaker 7 Well, she's in school full-time.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay, good. She's back in school.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Well, not yet.
She took the summer off.

Speaker 6 He died right when summer school was happening, and she just dropped out, which was okay.

Speaker 6 I understood.

Speaker 6 But my son kept going, and today's his last day. So we're going to take a little vacation.

Speaker 6 We're going to go away for vacation for a week. And then when I get back, I'm going right to work.
Good for you.

Speaker 1 What do you make at work? How much money?

Speaker 6 About 80,000.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So, how are you set up financially? Are you okay?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 6 we had life insurance,

Speaker 6 and so I'm financially secure now. We were a mess,

Speaker 6 but as soon as the life insurance was

Speaker 6 in progress, I started listening to your show,

Speaker 6 and I took all the steps that you promote.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 6 And so I paid off every bill we had, and we had a ton of bills. I mean, we had $80,000 worth of debt, and we don't own a home.
We lost our home.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I had $40,000 worth of IRS bills.

Speaker 1 And all that's paid.

Speaker 1 It's all paid. How much life insurance did you get?

Speaker 6 $1.5 million. Okay, good.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So the problem is,

Speaker 6 I didn't pay off. I didn't know what to do about it.
I had leased a car

Speaker 6 and I didn't know what to do. You don't talk about leased cars very often, but you're not positive about them.
And I know that they're not a good value.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm positive we don't do them, but you did it. It's okay.
So you just call. Here's what you do.

Speaker 1 Who's the lease with?

Speaker 7 BMW.

Speaker 1 Just call BMW and tell them you need the early buyout,

Speaker 1 which is

Speaker 1 like the payoff. I want to pay the car off.
I need the early buyout. I want my title.

Speaker 6 Okay, that's what I wanted to know.

Speaker 1 And it's like if you had a loan, you're obviously not going to pay the interest for all the years remaining. You're just going to pay the payoff on the principal balance, right?

Speaker 1 Yes. And that's what you're asking for.
It's the same thing.

Speaker 6 Okay, so that's the smartest thing is to early buy out and then keep the car.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You don't hate the car.

Speaker 1 You don't hate the car, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, I love the car.

Speaker 1 It's so awesome.

Speaker 6 But I know that it's a bad investment, and I thought you were going to tell me to keep it for the three years. No.
I didn't know what you were going to say.

Speaker 1 Pay it off and keep it. You've got the money.
You're okay.

Speaker 3 How much money will you have left over once all that's done?

Speaker 6 1.4 something, something, something. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Where is that money kept right now?

Speaker 6 I put it in Vanguard and in my retirement account as much as I could at work.

Speaker 3 So it's invested.

Speaker 6 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 6 And Fidelity. Okay.
Not Fidelity. I think I opened a Chase account.
I don't know. I spread it around a little bit because I was confused and I needed to get it at FDIC Insured.

Speaker 3 Well, I would recommend you get connected with the SmartVestor Pro. You can find one at ramseysolutions.com.

Speaker 3 I want to make sure this money does grow for you and that it can help you replace that income and grows at a good rate for you.

Speaker 1 And we start talking about buying a house out of it at some point, not necessarily today, but at some point. In the meantime, yeah, just get the lease paid off and

Speaker 1 you'll be heading in the right direction. And Karen, anything you need, you holler at us.
We'll help you any way we can, okay?

Speaker 3 Hasn't even been two months.

Speaker 1 Wow. Goodness gracious.
And she's on it. She's game on.
Wow. She jumped right at it.

Speaker 1 I probably didn't have a choice on some of it. Joseph's in Dallas.
Hey, Joseph, what's up?

Speaker 2 Hi, how are you guys doing?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. How can I help?

Speaker 2 So I just had a question.

Speaker 2 How do I convince my wife to pay off our

Speaker 2 student loan and the rest of our debt and do it as efficiently as possible?

Speaker 3 What caused you to want to do it?

Speaker 2 Well, I just don't like debt, but we've ended up racking up. We chose to rack up more debt out here.
We have some credit card debt, and

Speaker 1 something changed, and you decided to get intense and get out of debt when was that

Speaker 1 well i just never liked it and no that's not true you but you went into debt you're ready to do something what happened the other day two weeks ago five months ago something happened and you went i want to get out of debt maybe you started listening to this show i don't know what happened

Speaker 2 i guess yeah i did start listening to your show like my high school one of my high school teachers had mentioned you guys um years ago and i was like oh okay like that's cool but i didn't have any debt then either so it was like I was just going through life.

Speaker 1 So you waited to get some to go, all right, now I'll start listening to this show.

Speaker 2 Yeah, pretty much. Like it only took us 10 months to rack up our debt that we have now.

Speaker 1 And how much debt do you have?

Speaker 2 I think about $41,000 debt.

Speaker 1 The reason George are asking you the same question, reason George and I are asking you the same question of what got you fired up because something happened that you got new information that made you so excited that you were willing to sacrifice and get very intense and get out of debt.

Speaker 1 That was not there before.

Speaker 1 And that's what happens with your wife. It's exactly the same thing.

Speaker 1 You expect her to just wake up one morning and suddenly out of the blue feel exactly like you when you didn't used to feel this way. But now something happened and you got new information.

Speaker 1 You thought, gosh, it'd be worth it to sacrifice. And when I look at this, when I step back and look at it, it scares the crap out of me.
We went this far in debt in just 10 months.

Speaker 1 We got to stop that. we got to turn the car around we got to go back and get off the interstate the other direction and um we got to repent we have to do a 180 and um

Speaker 1 you know and that's that's what does it for her it's not honey we got to do this because i'm smart and i figured it out no it's here's

Speaker 1 This is terrifying me that we went this far in. Let's look at this.

Speaker 1 And I get really not terrified. I get excited when I talk about getting out of it.
Let's talk about how our life would look if we got out of it. What would we do if we didn't have any debt?

Speaker 1 How much wealth could we build? And where could we travel? And what kind of generosity could we do? And let's dream with her into the future.

Speaker 1 Ask her what she would want to do if we were debt-free and give her a reason to be excited about it other than you just did some math.

Speaker 3 She needs her own catalyst to get this journey started.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 3 And then we need to show her that there's a new Joseph. You've got to actually change some habits.

Speaker 3 It might be you selling some stuff, getting rid of an old subscription where she goes, oh my gosh, really, you really want to do this, don't you? And I think that's part of it.

Speaker 3 It's got to be more than just words, it's got to be action with that.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 3 Financial Peace University is the best way. If you just wanted a silver bullet, Financial Peace gives you the language.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we'll do that. What's your dream to get? Give you the class to go through.
You and your wife go through Financial Peace on us.

Speaker 1 And if you can get her to go to the class, I'll convince her. You won't have to.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Camill, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality, and host of The George Camill Show.

Speaker 1 He's my co-host today. Thank you for joining us.
The phone number is 888-825-52525. Gina's in New York City.
Hi, Gina. How are you?

Speaker 2 I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve. What's up?

Speaker 2 So about five years ago, we lost our house. We lost about a half a million dollars in a failed business.

Speaker 2 Prior to that, we were always really good with our finances. But since then, we've been renting, and we don't have a savings.
We don't have a retirement. We don't have anything.

Speaker 2 All we have

Speaker 2 is a property that my father-in-law gifted us that's worth about $1.6 million, no mortgage, and we don't know how to move forward. Do we mortgage that and do something else with it?

Speaker 2 Do we continue renting?

Speaker 2 Our expenses really is just we cover what we make, what we spend.

Speaker 2 So we're just not sure what the best decision would be. We're kind of afraid to move.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. That's devastating.

Speaker 1 So really, during the last five years, you've not, since all this happened, you've really not made any progress.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 2 So we put two kids through state college. We didn't have them incur any debt.

Speaker 2 We covered their college.

Speaker 2 I have another son that's going to college next year.

Speaker 2 My other son's in the Navy because he didn't go to college. We were paying for half his wedding,

Speaker 2 the reception only.

Speaker 2 So it's just been like, and then everything just seems to be getting more and more expensive. So what we're making maybe where there was a little left,

Speaker 2 I make $42,000 a year.

Speaker 2 My husband makes $115,000 a year. Okay.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 the thing is, you're not made any progress during the five years since the horrible event. Okay.

Speaker 1 So typically what happens is, you know, after there's a forest fire, things start to grow back

Speaker 1 and nothing's growing back here because you're continuing to spend everything you make and you make $150,000.

Speaker 1 And so,

Speaker 1 you know, you can't continue to do what you're doing. That's the answer to your question.

Speaker 1 You've got to, you know, you've got to get to a position that you say the thing we learn from the failed business and the lost home and our heart being broken and our emotions being gutted.

Speaker 1 The thing we learn is we don't borrow money. The thing we learn is, is that we're going to live on less than we make.
And this is what Sharon and I went through. I mean, only we were 28.

Speaker 1 You're not 28. But,

Speaker 1 you know, it gutted us emotionally. We couldn't,

Speaker 1 you know, we were numb.

Speaker 1 We were

Speaker 1 I walked around for a year blaming everybody else. I was a victim.

Speaker 1 And then I discovered that I was a victim of my own stupidity, that I signed up for the trip I got to take.

Speaker 1 And that was a harsh discovery. And that began healing.
And I said, okay, I'm going to take responsibility. And the responsibility is I don't borrow money anymore.

Speaker 1 And the responsibility is I'm going to be on a budget. And the responsibility is we're going to be tithing at our church.

Speaker 1 And the responsibility is Sharon and I are going to be in agreement on every dollar that leaves this place before it leaves. And we're freaking hardcore about it.

Speaker 1 And we're going to live on less than we make. And if that means looking at a kid and saying no,

Speaker 1 we're going to look at a kid and say no. If that means looking at a relative and saying no or a friend, we're going to say no.
Because I got one goal here.

Speaker 1 Me and Sharon are never going back to this mess again.

Speaker 1 And that was kind of the way we did it.

Speaker 1 It was a long time ago, but you can tell by the emotion in my voice, I remember it.

Speaker 1 So I know how you feel. You're kind of weak in the knees.
But,

Speaker 1 you know, you guys have really got to look at what

Speaker 1 we've gone through an extreme thing, and the way to recover from an extreme thing is extreme discipline.

Speaker 1 That make any sense?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I don't think what you've done, I mean, paying for kids' wedding is not evil. Paying for their college is not evil.

Speaker 1 You know, you haven't done anything that's evil here. That's not the point.

Speaker 1 But you just did it like it didn't matter and as if this other stuff hadn't happened and did it anyway and left you and your husband broke and still broken.

Speaker 1 You're still scared. You're still terrified as if this was as if this happened a month ago instead of five years ago.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I want you guys, I want to see some emotional healing and financial healing for you and your husband. Your kids will be, they'll make it.
They'll be all right.

Speaker 1 Lots of kids' parents have gone broke and they turned out okay.

Speaker 3 What shrapnel is left from this thing? Do you guys have any debt you're still trying to pay off?

Speaker 2 Minimal. We didn't really have debt, so we have like, you know,

Speaker 2 we have three cars. Two are paid off.

Speaker 2 One I owe about $25,000 on. I put about $5,000 on an American Express and $8,000 on a different credit card with zero interest.

Speaker 1 But that's it.

Speaker 3 Can I tell you, Gina, the way you're talking, that's it. It's minimal.
That freaks me out. And I think you need that level of intensity to never go back to this spot again.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 And so before we cover kids' college and pay for a wedding, we got to clean up our debt because you guys have nothing in savings, you told me.

Speaker 3 We got to put our own mask on first here.

Speaker 1 You're still spending more than $150K.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 You got to stop it. So,

Speaker 1 and I understand, but I'm telling you that.

Speaker 1 You can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. So

Speaker 1 the land, the 1.6 million, that's a curious thing off to the side of the story.

Speaker 1 He just handed you the keys to this?

Speaker 2 Well, he owns my husband's first generation, so he owns a few properties, and he gave one to each of his kids. That's the one that we got.
It's a six-family building.

Speaker 2 We don't take anything from it.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 2 Because it's rent stabilized, so it doesn't make a ton of money as it is. And we just let it kind of accumulate.

Speaker 2 My father-in-law is still alive, so obviously he still takes from it.

Speaker 1 Oh, he does. No, not obviously.
He gave it to you. It's not obvious.

Speaker 2 So.

Speaker 3 So you own it, but he gets the profits?

Speaker 2 Mostly, yes. We take about $1,200 a month from it, and that was included in the $150.

Speaker 1 So it's not really yours, though, emotionally, in the sense that if you wanted to sell it, that would cause a problem.

Speaker 2 Well, he says we can if we want to take a loan out on it.

Speaker 1 Our problem is a loan. I don't want to take a loan.
I said sell it. Right.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 sell it and buy you a house.

Speaker 2 I don't know that I would need to buy a house that costs that much. And I only have a house.

Speaker 1 I don't want to cost that much. I just don't want to own this.

Speaker 1 Like you call me up. You're completely broke, broken and emotionally wounded and over here to the side you have a paid-for $1.6 million property

Speaker 1 that you're making

Speaker 1 these two things are incongruent. It's incongruent to your story, but it makes me think that you don't really have the relational option to sell it.

Speaker 1 I don't think your father-in-law is going to go along with you selling it. He's going to have a fit

Speaker 1 and then go buy you a $600,000 house and put some money in some mutual funds or buy another piece of real estate that you own that actually makes a good rate of return.

Speaker 1 Because this thing sucks on the rate of return.

Speaker 1 George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Today's question of the day is brought to you by Why ReFi.

Speaker 1 If private student loan debt is taking away from your peace of mind, you don't see any way out. Well, you need Why ReFi.

Speaker 1 Why ReFi refinances defaulted private student loans that other places places won't touch and gives you a low fixed rate loan that's customized to you, built for you.

Speaker 1 Go to whyrefi.com slash Ramsey today. That's the letter Y

Speaker 1 R E F Y.com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

Speaker 3 Today's question comes from Michael in Ohio. How do you reconcile paying off debt prior to funding college?

Speaker 3 We started on our journey to freedom from debt last year, and our son will be attending college within the next two years.

Speaker 3 My focus has been earmarking cash specifically for his college tuition and expenses, with early debt payoff as a secondary priority based on the timeframe of when that cash is needed.

Speaker 3 What's your advice to parents with a more imminent timeline to college?

Speaker 3 Imminent. So intense.
Okay, so we're talking within the next two years, son is attending college. They've got some consumer debt.
They're trying to help pay for juniors college. What say you, Dave?

Speaker 3 Why this order? Because baby step two is payoff, your consumer debt. Baby Baby step five is safe for kids college.

Speaker 1 Well, this is not really saving for kids college. This is almost budgeting.
Because this is a current budget line item. Because it's here.
Cash flowing.

Speaker 1 And so what it's doing is just it's whatever we're paying out of our pocket for the kids' college because it's upon us. It's imminent, to use his word.

Speaker 1 Because of that, it's a budget item. It's not really a baby step.

Speaker 1 And so what that does then, by mathematical necessity, is it reduces the amount of money you you put towards your debt because you have this expense line in your budget.

Speaker 1 It's going to slow down your debt.

Speaker 1 But that's not because college is more important, it's because college is on top of you. Now, having said all of that, Michael in Ohio,

Speaker 1 Jr.

Speaker 1 is going to community college for the first two years

Speaker 1 because he's got a mom and dad that are broke.

Speaker 1 He's not going to Harvard.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 1 The number one reason people go into student loan debt is not to get an education. It's because they chose to go to a college they couldn't afford.

Speaker 1 The University of Tennessee at Knoxville,

Speaker 1 an in-state school for a Tennessee resident, is right now $14,000.

Speaker 1 Vanderbilt

Speaker 1 here in Nashville is $75,000.

Speaker 1 If you have extra money and you want your child to go to Vanderbilt, that's fine.

Speaker 1 But you do not go in student loan debt to go to Vanderbilt versus go to the University of Tennessee.

Speaker 1 And you can't convince me it's better because I went to the University of Tennessee and people that went to Vanderbilt worked for me. Ouch.

Speaker 3 Sick burn.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 there's that. So college selection

Speaker 1 is what's important.

Speaker 1 It's the number one thing because people they here's what's here's the irony of it. We talked about this in Borrowed Future in the documentary.
The irony is that people are stupid about education.

Speaker 1 That's an irony. We're dumb about education, if you think about it.
We don't shop for the price.

Speaker 1 So what we want is we want Junior to go to college. We want him to get an education.
We want him to get a degree in something that's useful, not left-handed puppetry or German polka history.

Speaker 1 You'll end up a barista.

Speaker 1 Okay? So, and $200,000 in debt, and you got it from a name-brand college that all your friends will think is fancy. So you're a fancy barista.

Speaker 1 Hello. Two nose rings.
So there we go.

Speaker 3 And I want to know what junior's buying is in this college process.

Speaker 1 Hello. That's number two, isn't it?

Speaker 3 Feels entitled to it.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking junior's signing up for scholarships. As hard as old dad is working here to save money because it's imminent, love that word,

Speaker 1 I think Junior needs to realize it's imminent and he needs to be doing three essays a night

Speaker 1 registering for free money called scholarships. Oh,

Speaker 1 and Junior needs to plan to work while he's in school. It's not child abuse.

Speaker 1 It's really not.

Speaker 1 Little Snowflake will make it. They'll be okay.

Speaker 3 Well, and the data shows 15 to 20 hours a week, part-time job, you have a higher GPA than those who don't work. So he'll be okay.
He'll actually be smarter.

Speaker 1 Yeah, actually be smarter. He'll develop this interesting thing called work ethic while he's there.
I want him to be able to study and play beer pong. That's what you're saying, actually.

Speaker 3 You don't realize it if you're a well-rounded education day.

Speaker 1 It's rounded,

Speaker 1 a little round white ball. Yeah, I got you, George.

Speaker 1 I saw what you did there. Thank you.
And so, yeah,

Speaker 1 we don't get a degree in beer pong. We're going to work.

Speaker 1 Oh, by the way, it's interesting. When I'm speaking to adult audiences, 5,000 people in the audience, and I say, if you went to college, how many of you went to college?

Speaker 1 And the people raised their hands, like most of the audience, right? How many of you worked while you were in college? Almost everybody in the room raised their hand.

Speaker 1 The number of people that went to college and worked zero hours while they were in college is almost zero. So junior is going to be working.
Junior is going to be getting scholarships.

Speaker 1 We're going to choose a college that is inexpensive and in the area because we don't have any money.

Speaker 1 And he's going to graduate and go be successful because he understands that the reason for an education is it's not a magic bullet that makes you successful.

Speaker 1 It puts tools in the belt of someone that knows how to work hard, be honest, apply themselves in the marketplace, and those tools help you to be successful.

Speaker 1 But no one ever became successful because of their degree. They became successful because of hard work, moxie, confidence, being competent in the marketplace, and kicking butt and taking names.

Speaker 1 That's how you become successful.

Speaker 1 I had a guy working here one time. He came to my office and he said, you know, he had more degrees than a thermometer.

Speaker 1 And he said, you know, people that have as many degrees as I have, when they work for big companies, they make a lot more than I make here. And I said, yeah, but you work for a small business.

Speaker 1 He said, yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 I said, well, that's...

Speaker 1 You know, the rules of small business are different. You're raised as effective when you are.
I couldn't care less about your dad gum degrees.

Speaker 1 All I care is can you do something with them that brings money into this place and I'll share some with you. Hello, that's how this works.
So make yourself of value, boys and girls.

Speaker 1 That is what makes you valuable. It is not the fact that you went to college somewhere and therefore the society owes you an income because you have a degree.

Speaker 1 Society doesn't know you squat and you will find that out as soon as you walk out there because it will spit in your face.

Speaker 1 And then you'll be going, I sure hope Biden will help me.

Speaker 1 He's asleep in the basement. You're not going to get any help.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 not coming. Not coming, boys and girls.
So that's the rant there, Michael. You're doing a good thing.
Put it in the budget. I'm not disagreeing with you.

Speaker 1 But then don't tell me, oh, well, my son told me he's going to this school. See, that's the thing.
17-year-olds didn't tell me anything at my house. I told them stuff, but they didn't tell me stuff.

Speaker 1 I solicited their input and then told them what we were going to do.

Speaker 3 You're paying for it. There's rules.
And you've said, Dave, here's the rules. You have to graduate in four years with this four-year degree.

Speaker 1 And it's interesting. You know, I told our kids, I said, here's the syllabus.
That's the list of classes you take in order to graduate.

Speaker 1 And so if you take all of these classes and you pass them all, you know what they give you? A degree. Wow.
It's magical.

Speaker 1 And you know, if you take all these classes and you pass them all in four years, you know what you get? A degree. If you do it in three years, you know what you get? The exact same degree.

Speaker 1 You know what you do if you do it in eight years? A degree, the exact same degree. So take the freaking classes.
Show up. What are you doing?

Speaker 1 I mean, we're laying out on top of the dorm, getting a suntan. It's spring.
You're killing me.

Speaker 1 And you missed the class that it took to graduate?

Speaker 1 Well, the average student. That's right.
The average anything you don't want to be.

Speaker 1 You don't want to be average. We're not signing up for average.

Speaker 1 Golly.

Speaker 1 57% of the people that start college do not not graduate. That's scary.

Speaker 3 That means 43% are graduated.

Speaker 1 Nationally, we have a graduation rate of 43%.

Speaker 1 If you've got a 57%,

Speaker 1 no, 57% do graduate. I got that backwards.

Speaker 1 43% dropout rate. If you got a 57 on a test at any one of those colleges, they would call it an F.

Speaker 1 But they walk around acting like they did something, graduating 57% of the people. That means 43% of you leave without the degree and with the student loan.
Don't do this.

Speaker 1 It was a lie. You were sold a lie.

Speaker 3 That's why they brag about acceptance rate, Dave, not the graduation rate. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 Pay cash. They ought to brag about the job rate after we left the school and got the degree.
That's the thing you ought to be bragging about. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host today.

Speaker 1 Nine years ago, we got word that a friend of a friend, a young church planter at that time was 30 years old,

Speaker 1 that he had a small congregation that had kicked off and was booming, but it just kind of gotten the whole thing going up in Indiana.

Speaker 1 And we got word that his pregnant wife had been murdered in their home.

Speaker 1 reached out, got in touch, and began a friendship over the years. And now

Speaker 1 Davey Blackburn is with us today. He's continued to be a friend and has a brand new book out called Nothing is Wasted, a true story of hope, forgiveness, and finding purpose in pain.

Speaker 1 Welcome back, my friend.

Speaker 4 Yeah, thank you, Dave. This is an honor.
Thank you, George.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Nine years later, this ends up as a book.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 That's got to be simultaneously

Speaker 1 fulfilling to talk through the ministry and what has happened out of this tragedy, this disaster, and also, God, just draining.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm talking about this all the time, even though it's nine years ago.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it is. But it's also very cathartic, you know, especially to see how many people are healing because of it.

Speaker 4 You know, every time we go and share the message, you find out that pain's the common denominator of life. Whether they've gone through this degree of pain, everyone has dealt with pain.

Speaker 4 It's kind of the thing that equalizes the playing field for us as humans.

Speaker 1 And then also

Speaker 1 I'll skirt it over it, but take a second and tell the, you know, the thumbnail version of the story. You're 30 years old, your wife's pregnant, you got a little baby.
You went to the gym.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she left

Speaker 4 for the gym on a Tuesday morning.

Speaker 4 Three men were on a random crime spree in Indianapolis, broke into the home three doors down from me, saw me leave for the gym that morning and decided to break into our home.

Speaker 4 And Amanda got caught up in that. We had a 15-month-old at the time, and she was 13 weeks pregnant with our second.
And she was shot three times. And when I came home, I found her, and she was

Speaker 4 still breathing very laborously, but unconscious. And when we got her to the hospital, the doctors revealed to me that she had three bullet wounds.
That prognosis was very grim.

Speaker 1 And how long did she live after that?

Speaker 4 About 24 hours later, she was pronounced officially deceased.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And the toddler was in the house.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he was in his crib the entire time, untouched, unharmed.

Speaker 4 So our world turned upside down.

Speaker 1 Well, you went from a picture-perfect little life, so to speak, to the opposite end of the spectrum in one morning at the gym. Right.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 So what was the next step? Out of all the grief, when did you kind of go, hey, I need to share this message and nothing is wasted ministries began?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, there was a long process, right?

Speaker 4 You know, now looking back on it, my counselor told me, we want God to heal us in poof, but he normally heals us in process.

Speaker 4 And so I had to go through a long healing journey, but being a pastor, I was immediately beginning to share the story.

Speaker 4 And unfortunately, because our story was such a national media story, I was also thrust in front of a couple of national television media outlets. And so I started sharing that story.

Speaker 4 Now, looking back on it, it was cathartic and helpful to begin to share that story because that's part of your healing, to externalize the things that have gone on in your life and to be able to find where God is in that story.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 I really had no choice. I had to begin sharing that with my congregation.

Speaker 4 And as I did, I found that people with their own pain stepped forward and they were finding healing in the midst of whatever they were going through too.

Speaker 1 Wow. It's powerful.

Speaker 1 I don't care who you are or where you studied or how you grew up. You're 30 years old.
Your wife gets shot three times and they leave the baby in the crib.

Speaker 1 That's got to change your relationship with God. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It

Speaker 1 got to be a little anger.

Speaker 4 There was a lot of anger. There was a lot of rage.

Speaker 4 There was a lot of confusion because my My idea as a believer was as long as I'm following after God and I'm in the middle of his will, then everything is going to go well for me.

Speaker 4 You know, I'll be healthy, wealthy, and wise, right? But then you find out, well, Benjamin Franklin's the one that said that.

Speaker 5 Scripture doesn't say that, right?

Speaker 4 And so then you look into scripture and you go, wow, actually, the people who follow Jesus the closest, they had a lot of very tragic endings to their life.

Speaker 4 And so what it began to do is reorient for me who God really is.

Speaker 4 that his promises are actually a lot sweeter than the real shallow promises that I was holding on to. And that in the midst of difficulty, trauma, tragedy in our life, he is walking with us.

Speaker 4 And so I found that, you know, Elizabeth Elliott says,

Speaker 4 there'll be situations that we go through that there's no explanation for why it happened, but God brings us something even greater, and that's incarnation. He's walking with us.

Speaker 4 And so in the midst of wrestling with God, the really deep, dark, despairing questions that I had to bring to God, he really showed up in profound ways that made it undeniable that he's not just real, but that he also cares.

Speaker 4 He's a loving father, and he wants to journey this valley with me.

Speaker 1 I seem to remember, and

Speaker 1 I may be wrong, you can correct me, that the phrase nothing wasted came pretty quick in the story, that nothing is wasted. Talk about where that came from, because that's the title of the book.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, while we were in the hospital, we were waiting on test results to come back, and I put on Pandora radio station at the foot of Amanda's bed elevation worship.

Speaker 4 I knew she would want to listen to elevation worship if she could hear anything. And Pandora is randomized.
You don't get to choose what comes up, right?

Speaker 4 But the first song that came up was the song, Nothing is Wasted. And that was the first moment where we felt, I was sitting there with her sister and we looked at each other.
No words were necessary.

Speaker 4 We knew that God was stepping into that moment. And he was bringing what scripture calls a peace that passes all understanding.
And this is what we felt like he said. He said,

Speaker 4 This is not going to end the way that you want it to, but I promise you, I'm not going to waste this. And then later that week, as we were preparing for her funeral celebration of life service,

Speaker 4 it reminded us of what she was doing as a business endeavor. She was refinishing furniture.

Speaker 4 She was going to all these antique shows all over Indianapolis, and she had asked me to go pick up furniture like I was American pickers off the side of the road, you know, that people had thrown out.

Speaker 4 And I remember looking at her the first time I did this and going, what are you going to do with this dresser? This is garbage. Nobody.
is going to buy this.

Speaker 4 And she said, Davey, trust me, give me a little time and I'm going to turn this into something beautiful. And she would over and over and over.

Speaker 4 And that week after she passed away, I felt like the Holy Spirit said, Davey, trust me, give me a little time, and I'm going to turn this into something beautiful.

Speaker 3 And that's the cover of the book?

Speaker 1 That's the cover.

Speaker 4 We actually got to, as a team, creatively direct that. And that's her sister that is modeling for that and

Speaker 4 refinishing that furniture. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow, very cool.

Speaker 1 So you eventually were able to forgive the guys, the men that did the murder? Yeah, they were convicted finally.

Speaker 4 They were convicted seven years later. It took seven years for it to go to trial.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I came out originally saying, I've chosen to forgive because I was a pastor. I'd preach messages on forgiveness.
I knew the right thing to do and the right thing to say.

Speaker 4 But now I was confronted with this

Speaker 4 for the first time in this kind of a gravity.

Speaker 4 And so I knew that forgiveness was a decision, but I didn't feel like forgiving.

Speaker 4 And a couple of things helped me on that journey.

Speaker 4 You know, the first thing that really helped me on that journey is realizing that unforgiveness was going to destroy me and it was going to destroy the people that I love.

Speaker 4 You know, it's like, it's like

Speaker 4 cancer that just robs you.

Speaker 1 Your toddler will pick up on it every time you walk.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 4 If you don't let God transform your pain, you'll transfer it onto other people.

Speaker 1 There's a line.

Speaker 4 And so I didn't want that to happen. So forgiveness was more for me.

Speaker 4 Releasing that bitterness is, you know, and trusting God that he's the better avenger, that he's going to, he's going to ultimately make this right.

Speaker 4 No matter what happens here on earth, he's the one that settles accounts.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 then I also remembered the way that I heard the gospel was a very unconventional way. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, Gardendale First Baptist.

Speaker 4 I went to this Easter play there, and the pastor comes out and he said,

Speaker 4 Jesus was murdered for my sin and for your sin.

Speaker 4 So at eight years old, that's how I heard the gospel. Jesus was murdered for my sin and and for your sin.
Then at 30 years old, my wife is murdered.

Speaker 4 Well, in that moment at that Easter play, the scene starts back up and Jesus on the cross says, Father, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing.

Speaker 4 And God drew me back to that moment and said, hey, are you willing to be a conduit of forgiveness the same way that Jesus offered forgiveness to you?

Speaker 1 Wow. It's powerful.
The book is Nothing is Wasted by our friend David Blackburn, a true story of hope, forgiveness, and and finding purpose in pain.

Speaker 1 He's got a wonderful ministry helping people that have been through all kinds of trauma that's in 200 churches across America. Be sure and check all of that out.

Speaker 1 You can find him at Davey Blackburn and learn all you need to know. Nothing is wasted because it's not.
Love you, my friend. Yeah, thanks.

Speaker 1 I'm proud of you for telling this story.

Speaker 4 Thank you, guys.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 George Campbell, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. He also is my co-cruiser.

Speaker 1 He and the other Ramsey personalities and my wife, Sharon, will be spending seven days on the high seas with you.

Speaker 1 If you get one of the last few remaining cabins, we're going to be on an almost brand new Holland America high-end, very nice ship. And we will be going to Turks and Caicos, St.

Speaker 1 Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas. No one will be on the ship except Ramsey people.
So you're stuck with other people trying to get out of debt.

Speaker 1 Boy, can you imagine bringing someone that did not like us onto that cruise and sticking them on there for seven days? That would be hell for them.

Speaker 3 That's a good revenge plot right there.

Speaker 1 Because we've got like...

Speaker 1 You know, we've got events and speaking. We will be the only entertainment on there.
Well, and the people we're bringing with us, which includes...

Speaker 3 Free cruise, I'm buying. And they show up and they go, oh, my God.

Speaker 1 See what you did. Yeah.
Stephen Curtis Chapman will be with us, a Dove Award winner, multi-Grammy award winner.

Speaker 1 Stephen, I was with him the other night, and he told a story. He got inducted into the grand old opera the other day, one of the first Christian artists to ever get inducted.

Speaker 1 He was very emotional about that.

Speaker 1 Don't blame him a bit. That's quite an honor.
He'll be with us. Dina Carter, country music star, will be with us.
Remember, Strawberry Wine, she'll be with us.

Speaker 1 And a bunch of other folks, including Manit Schohan from the Food Channel, will be doing a little food demonstration. We'll all be doing different speaking.

Speaker 1 Deloney, he'll be helping your mental health on the high seas and so forth. So I think think Coleman's going to help you with seasickness, actually.

Speaker 3 Is that his specialty? That's his specialty.

Speaker 1 No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 Handing out Dramamine.

Speaker 1 There we go. That's good.
He's the Dramamine.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm looking at the lineup. It's just amazing how many friends we get to bring on board.

Speaker 3 Magicians, comedians,

Speaker 1 I don't know why there's any seats left for anybody else with all the people we're bringing.

Speaker 3 That's true. We're bringing a crew.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a crew. So everybody wanted to help on this.
It's kind of amazing. So there we go.

Speaker 1 All right, the live like no one else crews, because if you're not on Baby Step 4 or beyond, you shouldn't come.

Speaker 1 We tell people not to be going on vacation and all that kind of stuff while you're in debt. And we're not hypocrites.
You shouldn't even buy our cruise.

Speaker 1 So we want you to come and celebrate, though, if you've gotten four and beyond. It's a good way to do it.
There's a few cabins left.

Speaker 1 And you know what's left after that, George?

Speaker 3 What's that?

Speaker 1 FOMO. Ooh.

Speaker 3 Catch the next one if it ever happens. Who knows?

Speaker 1 I wouldn't count on it. Ramseysolutions.com slash cruise.
Yep, we're doing it. And

Speaker 1 fun on the high seas. Jacob is in Spokane, Washington.
Jacob, what's up in your world?

Speaker 2 Hey, not much. How's it going over there?

Speaker 1 Better than I deserve, man. How can we help? Good.

Speaker 2 Hey, just want to say I love you guys. And I've been listening to you since 2007 when my teacher showed us your program.
So, and now he's my financial advisor.

Speaker 1 Wow. Back in high school.

Speaker 1 You went through the high school curriculum. Cool.

Speaker 3 Almost 20 years ago.

Speaker 1 Cool. How can we help?

Speaker 2 So I just finalized a divorce, and I owe her $150,000, which is her half of the equity of the house.

Speaker 2 And I have $70,000 saved up.

Speaker 2 And it looks like a HELOC might be the only way I can go because I owe her the rest of the money

Speaker 2 by the end of August, basically. So I know I'm a little bit behind, but we had kind of made plans to make payments up until the end of a divorce.

Speaker 2 So she changed it over and said that she wanted to buy a house. So

Speaker 2 yeah, I was just wondering if there's any other options other than HELOC.

Speaker 1 Okay, what's the balance on the first mortgage?

Speaker 2 $110.

Speaker 1 What's the value of the home?

Speaker 2 About $430, $440.

Speaker 1 And what's the interest rate on the first?

Speaker 2 $2.25.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you'd borrow $80 on a HELOC, and you make what?

Speaker 2 $130.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right, so I don't tell people to borrow money, but you're already in debt.
You're in debt to your ex-wife,

Speaker 1 and we're going to change that to another kind of debt called a HELOC. And so you're not borrowing money, you're changing the money.
You're changing the type of debt. You follow me?

Speaker 1 Yep. And so, yeah, that's what I would do.
The only other thing I can think of, Jacob, is why are you keeping the house?

Speaker 2 It's in a great school district for my kids.

Speaker 1 Are you keeping the kids? I love the house.

Speaker 2 Well, we're doing 50-50, but yeah, I want to to keep them in the school district and just want to keep them from having to move back and forth.

Speaker 2 One's four and a half and one is like five months.

Speaker 1 Neither one of them care.

Speaker 1 You're the only one that cares.

Speaker 2 Well, I also don't think I could sell the house and get the money in time.

Speaker 1 Is the divorce final?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 It's finalized, and then I just made sure that I could get the loan.

Speaker 2 So and then as I'm going through it, I'm like, I just decided to call you guys and just see if there's any other options that I could look into.

Speaker 3 You're under a time crunch, but here's what I would do. I wouldn't just go, well, I'm just going to stay in the house forever.
What you could do is do the HELOC, then list a house.

Speaker 3 When it sells, you immediately pay off the HELOC and take whatever's left as your new down payment.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing.

Speaker 1 You could keep the house if you want, but most of the time in 30 years of financial counseling with folks that they're in this situation, they keep the house for all their own reasons.

Speaker 1 And when you tell me you're keeping a house for a four-year-old and a five-month-old, that's the wrong reason.

Speaker 1 Because they don't care. They truly don't care.
You're just being emotional in the middle of this horrible catastrophe called a divorce.

Speaker 1 And I don't blame you for that because your heart's broken and you want to try to be a good dad and all that kind of stuff. But you just want to, you know.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure keeping the house is a smart thing to do. But if you want to get a HELOC just to get her off your back, that's fine.

Speaker 1 But honestly, where you are five years from now should be a completely different world than where you are today.

Speaker 1 And it probably is going to involve a different house because your next wife probably doesn't want to live in the house where

Speaker 1 your ex-wife used to live in the same bedroom.

Speaker 1 So just doubt it. I just doubt it.
That's just humans. Been dealing with them a long time.

Speaker 3 It helps to move on in that way, to get rid of the physical

Speaker 1 place.

Speaker 1 You had a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old, and they had friends that were deep, and you've been there for 15 years, and a lot of ties in the community. That's fine.

Speaker 1 But a five-month-old does not have any feelings except food and wet diapers. These are the feelings they have.
And

Speaker 1 we've got babies and the grandbabies in the family right now, and they need two things, a dry butt and a full belly. And that's pretty much what they need.

Speaker 3 Most humans, that's about all they need. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's it.

Speaker 3 Most adults, that's a good day.

Speaker 1 Good day. But I mean, honestly, I'm picking on you, Jacob.
You're going through a hard time, but it's okay to sell this house.

Speaker 3 It doesn't make you a bad dad.

Speaker 1 And I'm challenging the decision-making paradigm you're using to make the decision.

Speaker 1 But it's okay to take out a HELOC, and it's okay to keep the house, and it's okay to work it through with the numbers you've got. So that's what you wanted to know.

Speaker 1 And you always get more than you wanted to know when you call here. That's how it works, folks.
So, because I'm really here to help you, not just help you do what you want to do. There's a difference.

Speaker 3 And it's free. So you gave them more than they even paid for on top of that.

Speaker 1 That's impressive. You got a lot for that price.

Speaker 1 Well, all of you listening to the show on the YouTube or the podcast, the show is about to end. The last 40 minutes of the show is now on the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 The Ramsey Network app is completely free. It does not cost you a dime.
You can listen to the whole show or watch the whole show on the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 But the last 40 minutes of the show, as of this week, we are moving over to the Ramsey Network app for a lot of different reasons.

Speaker 1 But change is about the only thing you can count on around technology. And so it's changing.

Speaker 1 Those of you that listen on radio, on talk radio, you're going to keep getting exactly whatever your city's been getting. Not changing a thing there.
So we continue to do the show. But again,

Speaker 1 if you want the last 40 minutes of the show, the thing to do is go to the App Store or Google Play, download the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 there's a lot of cool stuff there including you can email us and we'll be answering some questions from the app you can search all of the calls uh we've got them logged back for several years and we built an algorithm in there and so you can search a call by a certain subject find three or four times we've answered on that subject and listened to it like maybe should i get a heloc when i'm getting a divorce that could come up you know it's like it's come up before i promise so um you're going to get the same little speech and so uh

Speaker 1 you can get it stuff answered and you don't have to wait through, you know, sit through five hours worth of listening just to get the answer you're looking for. But the whole thing is there.

Speaker 1 All the segments are there every day on the Ramsey Network app, including the last segment that begins in just a few moments. And

Speaker 1 again,

Speaker 1 if you're on the Ramsey Network app. But the podcast world and the YouTube world, the show is ending for you now.
And we really appreciate you.

Speaker 3 I was so glued into the app, I didn't pay attention, Dave. I just searched horse.
Don't recommend searching horse in the Ramsey Network app.

Speaker 1 Just

Speaker 3 find out for yourself. Yeah.
Did you come up?

Speaker 1 I'm right there, Dave.

Speaker 3 Thanks, team. Thanks for putting that in there.
Go check it out. Ramsey Network app in the App Store.

Speaker 5 Google Play.

Speaker 1 George. Mistake.
Unbelievable. Big mistake.
This is the Ramsey Show.