Small Steps Lead to Big Change

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Normal is broke, and common sense is weird.

So, we're here to help you transform your life.

From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show.

I'm George Campbell, joined by best-selling author Jade Warshaw.

And we're taking your calls at 888-825-5225.

Mandy is going to kick us off in Maine.

What's going on, Mandy?

Hi,

great to speak to you guys.

How are you both today?

Oh, sorry, I said Mandy.

It's Mindy.

My eyes have failed me today already.

That's okay.

So my question is, my husband and I are actually scheduled to be in Baby Step 7 starting off the new year.

Yay.

Cool.

I know.

I'm excited.

But I have a chronic condition and actually it's a condition that I ended up in the hospital for about a month and in a coma for like three weeks in June of 2022.

And since then I've really started to live life a little bit differently.

I've traveled more.

But I do know that my heart condition is not, I'm probably not going to live to a full life through through retirement,

which I'm okay with.

I do well every day, and I feel blessed by it.

But my question is,

where is the best place to park our money

as we go through speedy step seven so that we can get to it and enjoy it more than if we were to push it off to retirement?

That's a very good question.

I can't believe you're so level-headed and clear-headed.

I would be a a wreck.

How long have you known about this condition?

Obviously, it's been at least a few years.

I was actually born with it.

My parents were told that if I made it to the age of three and lived through with surgery, I'd be lucky.

And thanks to technology, I'm here.

How old are you now?

Miracle.

I am 47, and I actually have built my life around this.

I'm a nurse, and I used what I was given as a positive.

Wow, that's beautiful.

Well,

you've made it to 47, and you were only supposed to live till three.

So I would be very optimistic.

Clearly you are.

You're living your best life as far as you can live it with the condition you have.

And I'm really inspired by that.

What is the current life expectancy at this point?

Have they told you anything or is it just like, hey, you probably won't make it to 65 or 70?

It's pretty much, hey, you probably won't make it to 65 or 70.

The generation before me really didn't make it.

I am in that new generation of people that did make it.

So there's not a lot of research.

Yeah, you are like the research at this point.

Correct.

Wow.

Okay.

I mean, that's a miracle.

I mean, so

you guys have done really well.

Obviously, you're going to be hitting baby step seven.

What's your net worth going to be when that takes place?

So we actually are, I realized yesterday that through our

retirement, we are already baby step millionaires.

Excellent.

How much of that is the house, and how much of that is in retirement savings?

So

actually, the house is probably worth $400.

We'll have that done by January.

And our retirement currently is just over a million.

Nice.

So about $600.

Yeah, it was between the two of us, we have like 1.2 million.

Wow, that's just in retirement.

Yes.

Oh, my goodness.

Do you have anything in brokerage accounts or any kind of bridge funds right now?

We have savings, but I don't know nothing in brokerage that I'm aware of.

I don't even know if I know what a brokerage is.

Okay.

That's just a non-retirement investment account.

And so that would be the solution to accessing funds before you hit 59 and a half.

And so you can, you know, and you can take money out of retirement, just the contributions, if it's like, you know, a Roth IRA, for example, without penalty.

But I would rather see that money grow.

You've already earmarked it for retirement.

So I would just set aside, you know, whatever that, that, I guess, call it your bucket list fund, whatever you guys want to name it, your dream fund, and start putting money in this non-retirement investment account and just let that money grow.

And you can park that in a mutual fund or index fund inside of one of those non-retirement accounts and just start parking money there.

And you'll, you know, at least have it grow with the rate of the market versus a savings account.

Okay, that makes sense.

Do you have children?

We do.

We have one.

That was a very blessed event as well.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

So there is, I'm asking because there is posterity there.

So I'm thinking about, obviously, the retirement money is there for you, but the hope is that you'll live off of the nest egg.

You know, you will never touch the nest egg, just living off the interest when that time comes.

But George did make a good point about the Roth IRA.

So

that's something that could be there if you were getting down to the wire.

I mean, I'm trying to think of a situation where it's like, we must take this trip to Italy, you know, and it's like do you have actual like tactical things you're wanting to do that have a dollar amount attached to it?

Um, I mean, I haven't attached dollars to it, but I do.

I still currently work full-time.

I would love to go, you know, part-time in the next few years and then travel a little bit more.

Yeah, what does your husband make?

My husband makes so

honestly, he's he's getting a pension and working so I don't know exactly but

I was doing our every dollar and it it we're making good money on a monthly basis okay give us a ballpark number just so I can help help me understand kind of what we're working with is this 10 grand a month 20 grand a month yeah probably 10 grand a month good okay I'm just trying to figure out if you just stop working today could you guys get by now that you don't have a mortgage payment come January

yeah I think we could but I definitely am not quite ready for that.

I just

enjoy your work.

I love my work.

I didn't know if that was holding you back from these other things that you're wanting to do.

Because the other thing is, let's say you do live to 65.

Well, you don't want to just go, well, we accomplished the bucket list in two years and now we're just sitting around.

So I like the idea of you working as long as you enjoy it and that your health allows you to.

Yeah, no, if anything, I would go part-time just so I could travel more, but I really do enjoy what I do.

Awesome.

Well, I'll tell you this, your investments, you know, based on what the market has done historically, it'll double about every seven years.

So your 1.2 will become 2.4 by the time you are 54 years old.

And then at 61, you're looking at, you know, close to $5 million.

And that's if you didn't add anything to it.

So I want to encourage you that your retirement, you guys have done so well.

Probably even before you had this, you know, you kind of knew what life was going to look like.

You guys have just been doing a really good job following the Ramsey plan.

We've been trying.

We definitely,

you know, after my events in 2022, our

Ezell intensity went down and we traveled a little bit more.

Understandable, yeah.

Yeah.

What is your mortgage payment?

What are you going to free up in January?

We will free up just under $2,000, but we also are putting,

you know, at least $5,000 or more a month away right now.

Towards it.

You You know, I really think, you know, a brokerage is a great idea.

It's a great bridge between now and retirement, but it sounds like your husband makes a good income.

It sounds like you're contributing to.

And when the time comes to take these trips, it feels like you could really cash flow a lot of it as long as you planned it a little bit in advance to say, hey, over the summer, here's what we want to do.

And if you give yourself, you know, eight months to save up for it, that sort of thing, it feels like a lot of this is at your disposal month to month as well.

Yeah, I like that idea.

I mean, you could do some in the the brokerage.

I would just up the budget line items and go fund money for Mindy, dream fund, travel fund, all of those things.

I would up it.

And that's the beauty of Baby Step Seven: you get to choose how you build wealth, how you give.

And I would encourage you to do all three: save, spend, and give with the time you have on this earth, Mindy.

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My favorite line is when you say the margin in the proverbial couch cushions of your life.

That's cool.

Proverbial is underused.

It is.

You got to know what's under those couch cushions.

When you find something under a couch cushion, it is like a magic.

It's a magic trick.

Yeah.

It's always like a fond memory.

Maybe a goldfish that you forgot about.

Not a real life one.

Like the crackers.

In our household, I find like wrappers, like granola bar wrappers, because the kids, fruit snacks, wrappers.

I thought you were hiding the candy from Sam under the couch so he can't find it.

Not in the pantry, Sam.

Don't look there.

It's in the couch cushions.

The proverbial ones.

The proverbial cushions.

All right, Lauren is in Ohio up next.

How can we help today, Lauren?

Hi, thank you for taking my call.

Yeah, how can we help?

My question is about fair pay.

My coworker and I, I'm a senior graphic designer.

He is a regular graphic designer, which is a step below me.

He makes $80,000 and I make $68,000.

And I'm wondering, how can I discuss this with my manager without throwing her under the bus?

How'd you find out?

Through a discussion.

With him or with some water cooler break talk, and they're like, what are you making?

Like, I'm making $80,000.

And they're like, oh, gosh.

Do they know how much you make?

Yes, just conversation with my coworker.

Okay.

Which I know is normally not supposed to happen.

Well, it's all the rage among the youth.

There's the new salary transparency.

We should all be talking all the time about how much we make and like fight and like unionize, you know?

So I get it.

Right, that's exactly what she told me.

Have you mentioned it?

Have you mentioned it at all to your leader?

No, I have not.

Okay, so you're just looking for strategy on how to bring it up.

And I understand you want to be cautious and tactful and not be like, well, so-and-so told me that they make this.

I think you need to bring it up in a way that's like, hey, look, I found this information out, and I'm just curious how you guys look at valuing these positions because I've been in this position this long.

I'm at this role.

What does a growth plan look like?

You know, is there a reason why

I'm behind on that?

Or is it just, hey, the market has changed and they're needing to pay more to get new talent?

Like, my guess is that it's not malicious.

And my hope is that they do the right thing and go, yeah, no, we're going to, we'll give you a bump.

Maybe it's not today.

Maybe it's, hey, at your annual review, we're going to re-look at this and give you what's fair.

And if they, if they don't, if they treat this callously, I think that's also a sign that you need to go elsewhere.

If you feel like you deserve more with the role and experience you have, you know, I wouldn't hold on to the grudge and resentment and stay where you are.

I'd be looking elsewhere.

Okay.

But there's no, it's going to be uncomfortable.

I would call that out.

And we have a guide on uncomfortable conversations on our entree leadership side for business owners that I think would also help you.

You know, you're not on the leadership side.

You're on the other side.

But just opening and say, hey, I need to have an uncomfortable conversation, and I would leave as much emotion as you can out of it, which is hard.

So, I would like to do your venting privately and then walk in there with a lot of logic and not a lot of people.

Yeah, I think, George, you nailed it when you said curiosity because I'm just thinking through this and

looking at possibilities.

Because the truth is, you've got to

as much curiosity as you can have, and as much as

it's just, I don't know, because the truth is, maybe your coworker

said no on another benefit to get a bigger

money in their pocket.

Like, there's different ways that people could have negotiated their salary, and benefits are a part of that, too.

True, I'm just saying

we don't know the full story, and you guys are talking.

He listen, at the end of the day, I don't know, I would not put all of my stock in what my coworker is saying.

I would give some benefit of the doubt also to your manager.

I'm just saying, don't come in, guns a-blazing.

That's all I'm saying.

saying.

Okay.

Have you been getting raises regularly?

I've gotten one raise in, well, two raises in five and a half years.

Okay.

And do you feel like those were fair?

Or do you feel like, hey, I went from, you know, junior to senior.

There should have been a much bigger bump than just like a cost of living adjustment.

One of them was cost of living, one of them was a raise.

Okay.

Yeah, I would bring it up.

Do you have an annual review coming up soon or like a one-on-one with your leader that you have regularly?

In December.

Okay.

That's a good time to have that.

You could start the conversation now, and they might say, hey, let's punt this to December, and we'll have a bigger conversation around it because your comp will likely change by then, anyways.

But you have

your feelings are valid.

Let me just say that.

I don't like, yay, just suck it up and do your job.

You're fine.

I think you have very fair and valid feelings.

I just know attacking it with that level is going to feel like entitlement.

And I've been there.

I have attacked that problem with my leaders going, I just, I feel like I should be making more because other people make good.

That's just not going to play well, unfortunately, in reality.

Yeah, that's the thing.

I was happy with what I was making until I found out that information.

Yeah.

And that's why the comparison game of salary,

it's never going to be like, oh, great.

We're making the exact same amount and we're doing the exact same level of work with the same amount of effort.

It just always turns into one person being resentful and upset.

And that's the downside of these salary transparency conversations.

So I think just approaching it in a collaborative way, in a curious way, of just going, hey, help me understand why this is and what a growth plan would be like.

And that's, that's going to put the ball in their court to say, okay, yeah, that's fair.

What did you say?

So I should, I should not let them know that I'm aware of your pay, correct?

You can't.

I mean, I think it's honest to say, hey, I heard this like through the grapevine, like this, you know, the conversation came up, whatever it is, you don't need to say they told me.

but they're probably they're probably gonna ask like hey like where how did that come up because that can also mean hey we were quote gossiping yeah you know what i mean that can feel like that so if i'm the leader i'm going why are you guys all in the break room well i'd i'd even own that i'd i'd own that and say listen this is probably information i shouldn't know but i became aware of it and i yeah and that way you're saying hey you know you know we're not supposed to be chatting about this but at the same time if somebody just up and tells you something they just up and told you so it's like it's not men and black.

We can't just, you know, what's the little pin,

you know.

But I would also be, if you feel like this is the case and they haven't been looking at it and been ignoring it, whether on purpose or subconsciously, I would also be looking for other positions.

And the job market's tough right now, so it might be, you know, six months before you find something that lands.

But if you feel like, hey, it's my time to go anyways, my heart's not in it here anymore, then I would be considering that.

But if you love it there and all other things aside, you're like, no, I love it.

I just feel like I should be paid what I'm worth based on marketplace value.

That's a different conversation.

Okay.

That's very hard.

How old are you?

Thank you.

I'm 35.

Call us back and tell us what happened or leave the message.

Tell us what happens.

I want to know.

Yeah.

To be continued.

We never know what happens with these conversations.

Okay.

That'll be a fun report back.

Hey, remember I called about that?

Well, I got the raise.

Or

I found a new job making more.

Are you hearing this, James?

I'm making a note.

James is making a.

But I felt this, Jade.

I've been at Ramsey, you know, 12 years now.

Yeah.

And I've had six jobs.

You've been here 12 years?

Holy smokes.

Yeah.

I started when I was a wee little baby.

We less.

I haven't grown physically, but I have grown a lot emotionally, mentally.

I can see, yes.

You know, and so I feel like I know that feeling because I've been there.

And sometimes it was a legitimate, hey, there would be some poor leadership.

Yeah.

Maybe it was a poor timing.

Yeah.

But a lot of the times it was just me.

It was the guy inside, and I was drinking my own poison, creating a narrative that wasn't true.

About this versus that, or me versus that.

Or like, why I'm not, you know, just this sort of like little man syndrome, fist in the air.

Do you feel like you were, do you feel like you fell victim to the little man syndrome?

Well, I think there's just a level of it's never going to be as fast as you want, and you're always going to feel like, well, I deserve more.

I work hard around it.

Yeah.

And then over time, you look back and you're like, why was I so

just the way you approached it?

It was like the problem was true.

But the way you went about it, it's like your attitude towards it makes all the difference.

Been there.

Been there, done that.

I feel for her.

I hope it goes well.

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Kiata's up next in North Carolina.

What's up, Kiata?

How can we help?

Yes, I was calling.

You know what?

Thank you so much for taking my call.

First of all,

I was calling because I finally saw this into Dave Ramsey last month.

Yes, I found y'all on YouTube and was like, huh, this guy knows what he's talking about.

I like this.

And I decided to go ahead and pay off my credit card bill.

Way to go.

I took the revolving debt off my credit card bill, went to my local credit union, got another checking account, and put all that debt to come out that checking account.

Okay.

Now I'm watching my credit score go down.

Now keep in mind, I still have school loans that's over $17,000.

Okay.

Should I put some of that revolving debt back onto the credit card?

No, no, no, no.

So you've done a wonderful thing here, which is you found some knowledge that

was different from the knowledge you had before, right?

For the first time, you're hearing some guy say, pay off your credit cards, pay off your credit cards.

And you go, you know what?

What I've been doing has not been working.

Let me try what this guy is saying.

You pay off the credit cards, right?

So let me give you another piece of information that is likely going to be very different from what you've heard.

Are you ready?

Yes.

We would tell you, and I'm telling you right now, you're concerned about your credit score, but you don't need to be concerned about your credit score.

And I'm going to tell you why.

The truth is, this is the truth, and I get paid nothing for telling you this, okay?

The truth is

you can do with a zero credit score all of the things that you can do with a high credit score.

And if you continue the advice that you heard from Dave Ramsey, which is just keep paying your debt off, right?

The truth is, eventually, the things that were informing your credit score, which was only debt, right?

If you keep paying your debt off, your debt will be gone.

And what will happen also is your credit score will be gone because your credit score is only a determinist, it's only a debt measure.

That's all it is.

It's how much debt you have, how how long you've had your debt, what types of debt you have, what percentage of debt you're utilizing of the debt that you have access to.

That's all it's measuring.

It has nothing to do with whether or not you, Kiata, actually have money, whether you, Kiata, manage the money that you have well.

And Kiata, it has nothing to do with whether you can actually afford something.

It is a made-up thing for banks to get you to borrow money so that they can make money.

That's all it is.

And the people sitting next here at this desk have bought houses and lived their whole, you know,

majority of their adult lives without credit scores.

So it's 100% possible you just don't hear about it.

How does that hit you?

Oh, that is nice.

I did not know that.

Imagine you never had to think about your credit score again.

Would that free you mentally?

Yes.

That's what's going to happen as you become debt-free.

And likely what happened there is, again, your utilization went down because you paid off the debt and it's going to stabilize and as you pay off the debt it's going to get better might get worse might get better and then eventually it's going to disappear once you have no debt whatsoever and i can tell you from experience i can tell you from all of my research i wrote a whole i wrote a whole chapter about this in my book breaking free from broke in the credit cards chapter explaining every objection well i can't get an apartment yes you can here's how to do it not that difficult well i can't get a house yes you can here's how to do it bada bang bada boom and so you're gonna realize very quickly as you get out of the matrix how silly this game is.

Because you can admit, it is insane that as you pay off debt, which we can all agree is a responsible thing to do, your credit score goes down.

Doesn't it sound insane?

Yes, and I paid off part of my suited loan.

So I'm looking at my loans right now, and I have four of them left, and I paid off one.

Good.

And as soon as I paid it off, I watched my score drop by 10 points.

Because one of the measures.

Yeah, because one of the measures, remember we said, is how many different types of debt you have and how much utilization of the debt.

Because you went in the opposite direction and went the right way they went uh-oh uh-oh she's trying to exit the matrix we don't like that and so they dinged you to try to get you to come back and say oh wait because you were really considering putting more money on a credit card just to satisfy their little three-digit number which is wild

and so

yeah

say what you were gonna say yes because i thought well i thought that you have to have like revolving debt in order to qualify for like a house eventually.

You have the credit to qualify for a house.

You need here's what you need to hide to qualify.

I'm going to tell you the real story.

So to qualify for a credit score, yeah, you need debt.

But to qualify for a house,

it's the same process, just minus the credit score.

So for myself, when we did a zero score, meaning I did not have a credit score, when we bought our first house, they wanted to know, they wanted pay stubs for the last, I think it was three months, three months of pay stubs, Since I'm self-employed, they wanted to see our tax returns for a couple of years.

They wanted to see trade lines, which is literally things like cell phones, utilities, utilities, insurance.

I mean, and then rental history.

Have you paid rent on time every month for the last 12 months?

Yes.

Boom.

And that's called manual underwriting.

So the difference between manual underwriting and buying a house with a credit score is manual underwriting.

They're actually looking at your actual money.

They want to see what do you get paid?

How long have you been earning that money?

To George's point, have you been paying your rent on time?

Have you been paying your cell phone and utilities on time?

Whereas you could go over to Rocket Money or, you know, whatever, and they're just going to look at a three-digit number and they're going to.

And the computer says, yeah, she's good.

Yeah.

And you, meanwhile, you could have really, you could really not have the kind of money you need and be approved way above what you can handle.

And so that's how this works.

That is, that is the truth, and people don't hear that side, they only hear the credit side.

And the truth is, there's more than one way to skin this cat, and the way that we're, I feel like this is a terrible analogy, but I'm gonna keep

going.

There's more than one way to skin this cat, and the way we're doing it, there's not as much tears and suffering.

There we go.

We finished the analogy.

I'm gonna

finish it out.

Key, I'm cheering you on to debt freedom, and I encourage you to cut up those cards and stop looking at the score.

Do you have like some kind kind of credit karma app or something or you log in to look at your score?

The credit card company sends me like the little chime thing on my whole life, like a little text message.

And you know what they're going to say?

They're going to say, hey, we miss you.

Here's a new line of credit.

Well, up your line of credit.

Girl, where have you been?

Nothing.

Exactly.

I know their marketing.

And so I'm not going to trust the credit card company to tell me what to do with my money.

I know that.

Because they want my money.

And Kiata, I'll tell you what happened to me.

So

as we, my husband, Sam, we had at one point, we had almost $500,000 of debt.

And as we were paying it down, yeah, the credit score was dropping.

And we had finally paid off all the debt.

And I was checking my score.

I was going on Credit Karma to check my score.

And it was still like hanging out like 610.

It was terrible.

And I was like, oh my gosh, when is it going to drop to zero?

Because you're right.

You can't do anything with a bad credit score, but with a zero credit score, you're winning.

And so I was like, man, this doesn't seem right.

And so finally, I went on free credit report.

Is it freecredit report.com?

Annual credit report.com.

report.com thank you annualcreditreport.com to get the real deal from Equifax TransUnion all that and it actually was zero and Credit Karma was reporting that it was low to entice me to get back into debt products so please please be careful guess what that's how they make money by partnering with all the debt companies and lenders to with affiliate links to get you to go sign up for their latest and greatest card.

You see how much of a scam this whole system is?

Wow.

So I'm going to send you a copy of my book.

It'll peel back these layers for you.

If you'll read it, it's called Breaking Free from Broke, Hanging the Line.

And just read the credit cards chapter.

If you just got time for one chapter, read that one.

And I hope it gives you some hope that you don't need to live this kind of way.

I would need the whole book.

Yeah, I got you.

Yes.

I'll walk you through all of it in that book and how to do it without a credit score, every single thing you need.

And our partners at Churchill Mortgage, those are the folks who know how to do it.

They're the number one in the country when it comes to these no-score loans with manual underwriting.

Because the truth is most lenders are just lazy and they'd rather the computer tell them

than have a real person look through these documents.

Yeah.

They're trying to make as many loans as possible to make as much money.

And that's what you said, George, is so true.

It is worth highlighting.

Yeah, you might go down to your local bank and maybe they don't do manual underwriting.

That's very possible, but there are plenty of places that do.

And we're always going to recommend Churchill Mortgage because, number one, they're in almost all of the 50 states, so you can get your loan done.

But yeah, it just takes a little, all of this, George, is just that

more effort, a little more due diligence just to just look under the hood.

You actually have to open the hood to look under it.

That's a good idea.

You know what I'm saying?

I'll give you one last one.

The credit score, it's like watching a juggler, and you're like, wow, they're perfectly juggling all of this.

And you're like, yeah, but that looks exhausting.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, but they're so good at juggling.

You lose focus for one second.

Juggling has no falls out.

Unless you're part of a circus, just drop the balls, guys.

Live your best life.

Enough with the debt.

Enough keeping up with a three-digit number.

Let's focus on our net worth and our life instead of making these companies happy.

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Alrighty, today's question comes from Claire in Nebraska.

She says, I bought a van that I plan to live in full time.

I bring home $30,000 a year, and the van was $25,000, which I'm financing at $350 a month.

My rationale for doing this is that I won't be paying rent except for the occasional camping fees.

If I add my $95 a month car insurance, my total monthly payments are $433.

I did borrow money to buy the van, but Dave is not against borrowing money for a mortgage, and I see the van loan expense as kind of being like a mortgage.

Am I making a smart decision to set myself up for future success?

Okay, so Claire, I'm tracking with you on the idea of, hey, if I'm viewing this as a mortgage, then the debt, you you know, it wasn't a bad thing.

I can kind of get there with you mentally on how you made that transformation.

I'm not saying I agree, but I can make that transformation with you.

I think the biggest problem that I have with this is,

and let me go a step further.

I'm also tracking with you on trying to keep your expenses low.

I respect what you're trying to do there.

My biggest issue with this is it's something that is going to continue to go down in value.

And it likely will be upside down before the time that you've paid it off.

By the time you're ready to trade it in for another van, you're probably going to have the problem with it being upside down.

So for that reason, the fact that it's something that's going down in value versus going up is why I don't like this deal.

And my bigger question, George, for Clara would be, what's happening in your life that you're needing to have your, to live in your van and not get an apartment or, you know, that sort of thing?

Yeah, usually people aren't making that kind of move out of a place of strength.

Right.

Sometimes it's, hey, we want to do something fun and wild, and we're going to get the family to live in an RV.

That's

different.

But usually, it's, I try to justify it because I'm in a bad financial position and this feels like the best move when really it's a shortcut that doesn't lead you anywhere.

Well, she's not saying,

and maybe this is here and you just forgot to write it.

She didn't say, I'm an adventurous person and I just love traveling the world, you know, traveling the country and it didn't make sense to have a rent.

You know, sure, I can get on board with that.

You didn't say how old you are either.

There's a lot here that I'd like to know if you're 65 and this is the move.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, I mean, it's Nebraska.

Like I'm thinking about winter in Nebraska living in a van.

That just scares me for your health, your mental health, your quality of life.

Right.

So the bigger question is, where does Claire want to be five years from now?

If that's to be a homeowner, I just think we need to focus on getting our income up, getting the car that we can afford today in cash, rent somewhere that you can afford, and then let's focus on moving up.

And right now, your biggest expense is an asset that's going down in value.

And so that's the difference.

Dave's

the only reason we're okay borrowing a mortgage is because very few people are able to do 100% down on a house.

Dave would prefer it that way.

So we're only okay in a 15-year mortgage on an appreciating asset like real estate.

So I would get out of this while you can, while that van is still worth something, and just go rent somewhere.

And if you need to get a roommate to afford it, that's fine.

But I would stabilize your life in that way instead of living in a van for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the question.

All right.

Christina's up next in Juneau, Alaska.

All right.

Now we're getting adventurous.

What's going on, Christina?

Hello.

It's my two favorite people.

I'm so grateful to have gotten through.

You're my favorite person so far.

Aw, thank you.

All right, here's my question.

My husband is using our emergency fund as a bank.

He is using the fund as a way to borrow money without a loan.

He is paying the fund back, but he's been using it for non-emergency items as well as emergency items.

And we've gone down from six months fully funded down to $1,500.

So if anything were to happen right now,

we'd kind of be up a creek.

And I know he fully intends to repay the fund, and I used it as well, so I have to repay the fund.

But

a little backstory on that.

Two years ago, our house went through a flood,

and

we lost the floors, like we have plywood floors right now, because

we had to cut up all the sheetrock.

So we have a whole bunch of house repairs that need to be done.

Did insurance not cover the repairs?

No, because we didn't have flood insurance.

We were not in a flood zone, and

the climate has changed.

And actually, we live near a glacier that is letting out copious amounts of water.

It's not something that we could plan on, and it's not something people saw in the future.

And so we did not have flood insurance when the river that we live fairly close to

its thing.

But when you have an emergency fund, it is for emergencies.

It's for when things happen that you did not foresee happening.

And it sounds like,

to your point, this money has been used for both emergency funds, which would be a green light, but it sounds like it's been used more so for non-emergencies.

So I have a question.

How much was in there at the six-month point?

$35,000.

$35,000.

It's now down to $1,500.

Is that what I heard you say?

Correct.

So I want to know what types of things has your husband, non-emergency things, what types of things has he been spending this on?

And I want to know, has it been done in secret or has he been saying hey i really want to do this i'm just going to pull it from the emergency fund and are you like your accomplice yeah are you like no or go ahead as long as you pay it back tell us more about exactly how this is going down

um the um i have known about every single time there are no secrets that's good um

and I have a hard time saying no to him.

Okay.

And why is that?

Are you just like people pleaser or is he just like, well, I'm doing it anyway?

Like, is he just very stubborn or both?

I think it's both.

Honestly,

I

have a hard time saying no because I just want him to have everything.

Are these toys?

Give us some examples of what he's used this money for that is not an emergency.

Fixing up his truck, so truck parts.

Okay.

Just bought a new TV.

Okay, listen.

What if we just separated this?

Like, what if you had a different fund that was just like the savings fund to buy new stuff well

and cash flow before we get to that though

Because here's the thing before we even get to that I I want to say something that I'm it's not an insult.

I think it's just true and let me frame this up by saying this is your money, right?

This 35,000, whatever it started, it is your money.

And the truth is you can spend it however you want.

But both of you said we're earmarking this as an emergency fund.

And both of you said that for a reason.

You understood either we're working this plan or we understand the value of having emergency funds set aside, right?

So at that point, it becomes a personal integrity issue because you've both said, we believe that this should be this.

And then when you don't uphold it, that's a personal integrity issue to yourself of saying,

I'd rather you just do what George said and say, okay, you know what?

We've just decided we don't want an emergency fund anymore.

We want a truck fund and we want a TV and appliance fund.

And then just tell yourself the truth.

But this business of saying one thing out loud whilst doing something else here, that is something cognitive dissonance,

discongruity there.

So

to Jade's point, I think we need to do some soul searching and have a come to Jesus meeting and say, we might need to move this savings to a different account that is less accessible so that you're not just dipping in there for everything.

So that might be one solution.

I don't like it as a long-term solution, but right now it stops the bleeding.

That's good.

That's true.

Because you're about to have a real emergency.

Like, that's when Murphy shows up is when you just bought the brand new TV and then your HVAC goes out and you got $1,500.

And now you're taking out a personal loan to cover the HVAC.

And when that happens, that's when you're really going to feel like, dang it, this, and you're going to feel like, man, this is my fault.

I didn't keep my promise to myself.

And now because of that, here we are.

Whereas if you can at least do what George said and say, okay, this is the slush fund money.

This over here is the emergency

fund money.

We'll keep this much in the EF fund, we'll keep this much in the slush fund, and we'll have our fun.

You know,

yeah, I would move, I would move it to a different savings account.

You can check out fairwinds.org/slash Ramsey, and they've got a smart bundle for our fans, and they have a Save Smart savings account with high yield.

It's awesome.

That might be a good temporary fix.

But ask yourself these three questions: Is it urgent?

Is it necessary?

Is it unexpected?

If it's not a heck yes to all three of those, do not touch it.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio.

I'm George Camill, joined by my co-host, Jade Warshaw.

Open phones at 888-825-5225.

You call us up.

We'll help you transform your life.

Donna is in Ontario, Canada.

What's going on, Donna?

Hi, thank you for taking my call.

I'm 63 and retired, and my husband is a little bit younger than me, but he'll be working for maybe another three years.

It's a second marriage for both of us, and we both have two adult children.

My husband funded my stepdaughter's dental school with our HELOC on our home and cottage for $600,000.

Wow.

And

so now

I'm a little nervous about this because it changed a little bit from the beginning.

The beginning, she was supposed to, we would fund her four-year dental school, and then she would graduate, get a job, and pay us, go to the bank, and get a loan and pay us back.

But then she did another two years.

That's why it's $600,000 in total.

Why did she do another two years?

To be a specialist.

And you guys paid for that no problem?

yeah during covid we um re-evaluated our cottage so we could borrow more money on that one um so it's a total of six hundred thousand on our home and our cottage but now um it looks like my husband wants to turn this into a mortgage because of the savings in the interest rates And then the payments would also help pay down the principal faster.

And now he's looking at buying life insurance to pay extra to buy life insurance while he's working in case he dies, that that money would be used to pay off her debts so that he said she doesn't have to deal with me.

What happened to the plan of her graduating and taking on the loan from you guys?

Because he they didn't have the right information.

She's working in the States and

she's not a U.S.

citizen.

Right, but I

think that's a good question.

I understand.

I'm not saying I agree with the plan, but wasn't the plan that she would then take out her own $600,000 loan and basically give you guys the cash so you were free and clear?

Wasn't that what happened there?

Yeah, that was the original agreement that I agreed to.

But it wouldn't have been $600,000, probably would have been $400,000 because it would have been only the four years.

But she chose to do the extra two.

What was the agreement there?

Yes.

Nothing had changed because she was still in school.

But did she say, hey, I'm going to do these extra two years.

I'll cover it through the future loan I get.

Or was it, hey, we'll cover the extra two years.

You go have fun.

My husband said that we would cover the

total.

So you guys are on the hook for 200.

She's on the hook, in theory, for 400.

no in theory she's on the hook for 600 okay and i'm saying

what happened paying us back okay but i'm saying did she do her part of the plan which was now when i graduate i'm supposed to go get this loan for six hundred thousand and pay back mom and dad what happened there

um because um she a bank will not give her a loan because

She's she would So a Canadian bank won't give her a loan because she works in the States?

Well, because she doesn't have her green card yet.

And I don't know if the bank would say, we'll give you $600,000 so you can pay off your parents.

I don't think is she making enough to pay the HELOC payment?

Yes.

Okay, is she doing that currently?

Yes.

Okay, what's the payment every month?

Sorry, I don't have the pages here in front of me.

The

interest rates are

about 4.95

on the house and 5.45%

on the cottage.

And if she was to turn it into a mortgage, it would be

a savings of about $3,500 a year.

Oh, a year, okay.

So like $300 a month is what we're talking here to do all this work.

Does that include all the fees to make all this happen?

There would be no fees.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean...

Because we paid off our mortgage.

it's not like a life-changing amount of money saved here and it may make it more complicated because now it's all rolled up into your mortgage versus separated out so it's clear how much is hers and what's y'all's

yeah we don't have a mortgage we have no debts everything is hers the only thing is is that it locks into

it's now all of a sudden it's become a long-term commitment yeah that i would say versus the line of credit which is the heloc i

I want you to rephrase that.

You said you don't have debt.

You guys signed on the dotted line for the 600 grand, did you not?

Yes.

So if she skipped town and said, good luck, I'm not paying it, it's on you guys.

I want you to remind you the risk is all on you right now, and there's no risk on her part.

And so while that's happening, she's living a good life because she has no risk.

As long as she makes the payments, you guys are happy.

But I want this to get transferred to her as soon as possible.

And that's what I would like too.

But

my husband seems to want to take care of her

and he seems to be okay

paying this debt.

I think it's $1.2 million

on both properties.

And what's left?

The the cottage just has the six hundred grand.

Like was it paid off before you took on the loan?

We just paid off our mortgage a couple months ago.

So

the HELOC on the cottage is $275,000 and then the HELOC on the house is $325,000.

So we're going to pay off the lower, the lesser loan first and turn that into a mortgage loan for $275,000.

Yeah, I know.

In Canada, it's different with mortgages, and it resets every five years.

Is that right?

Yeah, in like a term.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, if the interest works out in your favor and you want to save the $3,500, I think that solves one problem.

It puts out one tiny fire, but there is a much bigger fire here, which is the 600,000-pound gorilla on your backs.

Yeah, I'm a little worried about it.

My husband doesn't seem to be.

I actually think that right in this moment, that's the bigger problem than the 600,000, because as long as you guys aren't on the same page,

not much is going to be done to solve it because he's okay with it.

And so something's got to happen to where you guys either both agree, you know what, this is a gift and we're paying it off, or this is not a gift and we're going to be very serious about finding a way to transfer the risk from us to the daughter, which I got to, I just got to say,

it's interesting to me how this played out because you're feeling this weight of this $600,000.

You know, like, this is not good debt to have.

Did you know that did you have a debt?

Were you averse to debt before you did this?

Because it's weird that you would want to transfer this burden of debt onto a child or to a kid.

She's grown now.

I mean, she's out of school.

But

I mean,

my point is:

debt is not good for anyone.

Especially someone who wants to retire in three years while you've already retired.

It just puts you guys at risk that he's going to have to keep working longer or you might have to sell the cottage if this doesn't play out perfectly, which it already hasn't.

Let me remind you.

So there's just a lot of risk here.

I want to get this hot potato out of your hands as soon as possible.

But if you want to refinance and save some money in the meantime, be my guest.

Good luck, Donna.

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Hey, if you're enjoying the Ramsey show or you ever have, do us a quick favor, hit the like button, hit the subscribe button, hit the share button, the follow button.

Just hit all the buttons.

It really helps us out.

It tells the algorithm that you're enjoying this and someone else might too, and that helps us spread some hope.

Appreciate you guys doing that.

All right, Jade, what do you got for me?

You were supposed to set it up in a better way than this.

I got no setup.

Jade said, hey, I want to do something.

And I went, Jade, it's your show.

I'm just living it.

No, you were supposed to talk about TRS Live and then I was going to segue out that.

That's true.

Do the people know?

All right, we're doing the Ramsey Show live on the road.

It's already sold out.

We've got Chicago and Orlando

on September 30th and October 2nd, and we're pumped to hit the road and see what happens in a live environment.

And it's a fun combination.

Like, your day,

the Chicago is different than Orlando.

Yes, Chicago will be myself.

Rachel Cruz, Ken Coleman, and then two days later, we'll be in Orlando with Jade Warshaw and Dr.

John Deloney.

It's good.

I'm excited.

And me.

I'll be there too.

Okay, so this is my bad segue for we were in, so here on campus, we have an office that all the personalities are in, and we were in there talking, and somehow we started talking about the Lion King, the movie, Disney, and we were saying,

if

we were playing those roles, who would we be?

Oh.

And so Ken got all hung up that he should be Rafiki.

Oh.

And I was like, oh, okay.

Even though I kind of saw you possibly being Rafiki.

And then we were talking about Scar, and I said, John John is definitely Scar.

John is scar.

Yeah, he's got that dark humor.

Yeah.

And so we asked

ChatGPT to tell us if we were.

Yeah, who's I feel like Ken is Timon?

Interesting that he wants it to be Timon.

You got to be Timon too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going to tell you what Chat GPT said.

Okay.

Of course, Mufasa, Dave, right?

Ken Coleman, Rafiki.

Oh, good.

It says that he's full of wisdom and guidance.

That's what I was going to say.

Calling and purpose and a little eccentric at times.

Okay, George, you're Simba.

What?

It says the younger, energetic leader.

He's the leader in training who's finding his place in voice.

That's beautiful.

And that means that Dave Ramsey is my father.

Oh,

listen.

There we go.

The parallel universe.

That's different.

Rachel Cruz is Nala.

I'm not surprised by that.

That makes sense.

John Deloney, Timon.

Oh, that meant.

Yeah, okay.

I could see that.

So I'm thinking, oh, my my gosh

i'm thinking i'm gonna be scar

what did you get i'm pumba

wow they did you dirty with pumba fun loving approachable and totally authentic she helps people feel safe being themselves and also being a young warthog All right, moving on.

You lost me at the warthog, but everything else was up.

Right?

Isn't he a warthog?

Yeah.

All right.

Just a little.

That's beautiful.

Just a little fun segment there.

That was fun.

Yeah, we could redo the live action movie and cast us and see what happens there.

Listen, a lot could go wrong.

Yeah, I don't want to see Deloney and Dave, you know, go at it.

That's that's a scary premise.

Well, if you're listening online, drop in the chats who you think it should have been.

That's so fun.

Tomo.

I thought I would be like one of the hyenas.

I thought you were going to see.

He's laughing in the corner.

Remember Zazu the bird?

Yeah.

I thought you could have been him.

Yeah.

Anyway.

All right.

Well, that was fun.

Thank you for that.

Can't wait.

Keeping on.

Keith is waiting in Georgia.

He's going, what are they doing?

I got a real question to ask.

Yeah, I know.

Keith, what's going on, man?

Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hey, thank you.

Thank you guys for having me.

So, full disclosure, I'm a pretty big ball of nerves right now.

I've never really.

I got you.

Got it.

So I'm hoping I can get a nudge in the right direction.

So

I'm in the process of trying to find a property to move into with me and my wife as a rental.

The only issue I'm running into is

I did have a home that

was foreclosed on about three years ago.

And

since then I kind of got knocked down again with losing my job where

actually the location I had closed.

So it was

I didn't really have a choice in that.

And

I kind of took it upon myself to go to school, get my CDL.

And I've been doing that now for about six months.

But my credit's not going up as high as I want it to.

And

I'm trying to see

what the best method is going to be to just getting into a apartment or a home.

Because I mean, to be honest, right now, me and my wife are staying in a camper.

So

I'm kind of getting stir crazy.

What about your wife?

What is her financial picture as far as her credit look like?

She's not much better off.

So when we first got together, she didn't really have any credit.

And then she actually ended up losing her job due to a similar situation around the same time I did.

And this was November of this past year.

So her credit was slowly climbing.

And then

when that happened, we kind of got behind, and her credit's actually a little bit lower than mine.

So

you guys are both working full-time now?

I'm working full-time.

My wife is working part-time currently.

She did recently just get a job offer

to

work as a director for a daycare, and she'll be starting out in November, which is good news.

Yeah, that's great.

What will you be earning once with you with your CDL and once she becomes director at that daycare?

So I've been working now with my CDL since March.

I'm currently earning about $60,000 per year.

She will be earning roughly $35,000.

Good.

Okay, so really the big problem here is you're feeling like the credit score is keeping you from getting in that apartment.

To which I'd say, you know, if I were in your shoes, I'd try to avoid kind of that big box apartment system.

And I've got to go through the corner.

The corporate ones where they just run it on the computer and they go, well, it didn't go through.

Sorry, you can't rent here.

I would be looking for more of like a landlord or an actual human being who can sort of look at the whole picture.

And I would just be upfront with them.

When it runs it, you're going to say, hey, if you run the credit, here's what you're going to find.

We had a a foreclosure.

Here's where we're at now.

Here's our income.

We make about 100 grand a year.

We have enough to cover that, you know, they might require a higher deposit.

There might be some stipulations.

But if you look around long enough, you're going to find a real human being who will allow you to rent.

I see.

And then the other thing that's kind of gotten me super anxious is, you know, when we're ready to purchase a home, and you know, again, in a few years, I'm just so worried about how that foreclosure is going to affect me and what kind of hurdles I'm going to have to go go through at that point.

Do you guys have debt right now?

We do.

So we have about $10,000 in auto loans, and then there's about another

$10,000 in collections currently.

Okay.

So you have a ways to go.

By the time you're cleaning that up, get the fully funded emergency fund, save up a down payment, that's going to be a few years from now.

Okay.

And the credit, that foreclosure will likely stay on your credit report for about seven years from my research.

Does that sound about right?

That sounds right.

It's kind of in that way, it's like a bankruptcy.

It'll follow you around for a while, but eventually it's going to let go of you and you'll be able to kind of have that fresh start.

But your credit score should improve much faster than that.

So as you pay down this debt and you get rid of it, that's going to help to improve it.

And within probably two years, which is a good timeline for you guys to get rid of the debt, get the emergency funds and work on that down payment, I think you're going to find that your credit score has drastically improved.

And it might even disappear by then, which could actually work in your favor.

And you can go through the manual underwriting process at that point, especially if you've had 12 months of rental history, which hopefully you'll have by then.

So I know it feels like, man, I mean, life has truly beat you guys down.

The job losses, the foreclosure, I can just feel that you've lost your mojo.

I just want you to know that three years from now, you're going to be in a completely different place.

But in the moment, it feels like this is forever.

Like, how are we ever going to crawl out of this?

Yeah, the last few years, it's just all like

every day has been a struggle.

The last few years, it just feels like I'm expecting another something else, you know, more bad news to come around the corner.

And that's part of why I got my CDL because it's like, well, at least I had this.

You know, I have a guaranteed way to work.

And, you know, even if the job ship's down, I'll work somewhere else.

It's not a huge deal.

So that's given me a little bit of hope.

But

just given the past, yeah, your income is going to create that stability, and that stability will create a foundation for you guys to get out of this situation so it's all going to change man 2026 is going to be a very different year for you guys i'm rooting you on to get rid of the debt i'm going to send you our all new every dollar it's going to help you guys find the margin give you recommendations coach you along the way and i can't wait to see the progress you guys make keith i'm rooting for you man i hope we can get you out of that camper into a more stable living situation real soon

I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I have taken from situations that are completely preventable.

Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance.

We actually took a question of a lady and she had three kids pregnant and husband didn't have life insurance.

And I'm like, I can't even imagine, or even if it was opposite, right?

If a mom passed away, there's a dad with kids and trying to figure out how am I going to afford child care?

How do I, how do I outsource some stuff that maybe she was doing?

Like, and it just takes the grief and the sadness of something like a sudden death to a whole new level.

Like, when you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills

next week.

Yeah, in the middle of all that grief.

Like, it's just, it is, it's terrible.

And so, life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive.

Xander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance.

And we keep re-upping it because I'm like, I just want it there.

Like, there's something about that safety of knowing that you have money if something suddenly happens.

And it doesn't cost much because Xander shops among a gazillion different companies.

It doesn't cost much.

You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You got to say it out loud.

And you got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place.

The cost of stinking pizza.

There really is.

So that is one thing to do to say, I love you to your family.

So we've used Xander for all of our family's needs for insurance for many years, including, of course, term life insurance.

To get a free quote, go to 800-356-4282.

That's 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com.

Anna is up next in Spokane, Washington.

Anna, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

How can we help today?

Hi, I'm so happy to be speaking with you guys today.

Thank you.

Yeah, we're happy as well.

What's your question?

Yeah, so I'm kind of having like a midlife crisis.

How old are you?

I'm

50 years old.

My kids are grown.

So I was a single mom for 23 years.

I've got 18 credit cards.

I've got zero debt, zero retirement.

I have great credit score, no mortgage, no house.

i do have 25 grand in savings and i have a good car

my problem is that um

i when i was raising kids i never made more than 34 000 a year um when my kids were older and covet happened um and the job market dropped i just kept going and getting a better better job and they were just taking warm bodies at the time right and so I'm now in a job where I almost make 70,000 a year.

Awesome.

Now that the job market has switched again,

the company, I'm in a tech company as a financial analyst, they're starting to lay off people.

We just laid off seven people last week because they could not do their jobs.

They were,

what's the word I'm not able to, you know, not smart, basically not growing with the job.

And I'm afraid I fit that category.

I'm afraid I'm going to get laid off.

My job is incredibly stressful.

I wake up in the middle of the night with panic attacks.

And so

I did a lot of research in what kind of job I could

get with my type of hobbies, things that I do really enjoy to do, not sitting on a computer.

Before you go to that, can I ask a question about your anxiety and about you being afraid that you're on that list?

Before you go to the job search,

is that what you're hearing back in your reviews that you're not, is that what you're consistently hearing is that you're not quite hitting the mark?

Well,

I was

so last week

when we laid off those seven people, that's when I was kind of told.

So it was kind of like, hey, we laid off seven people last week.

And I was like, oh, no, you know, why?

And they said, well, they were not meeting the mark and

they're underqualified for the job.

And it was kind of like a, you better like catch up or do something, right?

But what did you do?

You better get qualified.

They said, so I want to, I, what I'm trying to find out is if you're just fearful or if something truly was said to you of hey Anna we're making layoffs for people who are not you know up to par and you're fitting that list and so we don't want you to be one of those people but right now you're headed down that direction have they said something clear to you like that

not clear but okay that was the undertone of insinuation understood understood okay and that's what's giving me the anxiety what would it take for you to become qualified quote unquote

i don't know i mean i you know i worked in um admin assistant for a really long time and i kind of you know i got good in excel and i worked my way up in that

um

but i i've kind of always kind of switched and bounced around in my career i've never really had a career um

i i before covet i actually became um

a certified yoga teacher.

I worked in hospice before an admin and I became a full-time yoga teacher.

I owned my own business doing indoor plants and aquariums and I worked as a hospice caregiver.

I was happier then than I'd ever been in my life.

So you're saying

this job's sucking the life out of you?

Yes, absolutely.

I don't sleep.

I don't have life because I'm so happy.

If you want to move on, if you want to move on because the job's sucking the life out of you, that's very different from I feel like I might not be making requirements and I'm scared I won't be able to to meet these requirements.

Because then I'd say, hey,

it's both.

It's both.

Yeah, even if you got the requirements, you're still like, I don't want to be doing this.

And so for those reasons alone, I'd go look for something else, but I wouldn't just up and quit today.

I would keep the stability you have while looking for the next thing.

Yes.

And so, and that's where, you know, I have a lot of conflicting information from advice from other people.

And that's why I was calling you guys today.

Because, like I said, I did a lot of research on what type of job I could get that, you know, pays anything.

And, you know, then I'm looking at like getting student loans if I wanted to become like an OTA or a physical therapist assistant.

You know, that maybe I can, you know, the top end of that is $70,000.

So I maybe start around $50,000, which I don't want to go down in salary.

Yeah,

you can't really afford to at this point.

You told us you have no retirement whatsoever.

Yeah, no retirement.

So it's all up to you.

Yeah, my rent keeps going up.

So what I did find was an estate manager or like a live-in-nanny type situation where I could actually

start at around $80,000 a year and have all of my living expenses covered.

Amazing.

You could shovel money into retirement at that point.

And you like kids?

You like kids?

Other people's kids?

I do.

Not only do I love kids, but I also have a son on the spectrum.

And, you know, it was funny because I thought, thought, well, maybe I'm not really qualified to do that because I don't have like an early education, childhood certification or something.

And I thought, well, you do have 23 years experience of raising kids and also having, you know, a kid with special needs.

Sure.

I'd rather that than somebody with a piece of paper.

Yeah.

I think you're so focused on what am I qualified for.

I want you to start focusing on what am I wired to do and what lights me up?

Because

I couldn't care less if I'm hiring you as my estate manager.

What's your resume?

Do you have a college degree?

I'm like, how are you with my kids?

Can I trust you?

It's all about integrity and work ethic.

And would you treat my family and my house like I would?

That's right.

And so I think this is a great next step for you.

And even if it's not the thing for the next 10 years, it sounds like you're just fired up about making that shift.

And is this like offer on the table?

You could go take it tomorrow?

It's not, but I did, you know, the other thing is I live in Slo Cam, Washington, and my mom is in the Seattle area, and she's getting older.

So I'd like to be closer to her, but it's a lot, you know, the living expenses are a lot more there.

But I did find an agency that, you know,

helps you as a nanny to find a job.

And there are several jobs, high-paying jobs in Seattle area.

That are 80 grand live-in expenses covered.

Yeah.

Great.

I'd be exploring that, getting interviews,

putting your best foot forward.

Yeah, they even provide like a car car and insurance and

health insurance, a phone.

So

I would just have, you know, clothing basically as my expense.

And then, of course, like seeing my kids, you know, maybe I'd fly them over for you.

I think you've answered your question.

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into it.

You kind of like started the dreaming phase of it, which is, yeah, I think you're really into this.

The only caveat, yeah, is don't quit your current job until you have the offer and a start date.

Like, you know, that this other thing is happening.

Otherwise, you could really jack yourself.

And have they been doing severance packages with the layoffs?

They have.

Okay.

That'll give you even more breathing room.

If it does happen, there's a silver lining there that you've got some cushion.

Yeah, I do have a three-bedroom home.

I, you know, I need to get rid of everything.

And then that's my next step is like trying to decide what to keep and what to put in storage.

I already found I can get a storage unit for about $2,000 a year.

Why even keep the storage unit?

I'd be on Facebook Marketplace this entire weekend just listing stuff.

Yeah, it's hard for me.

I have some sentimental things I'm attached to, and I think mostly it would just be like keeping Christmas decorations for my kids a little.

Yes, keep that.

Yeah, so I mean, it wouldn't be much, but just something too, because my goal would be if this does work out,

that, you know, maybe I would buy like a tiny home or something in four or five years.

and that way i could

if i don't you know do that then i would say okay the storage unit has to go kind of put a time limit on like you know okay kids you know take your christmas decorations or um you know or if i had a tiny home then i could you know certainly move all my things into my home um

yeah

so

I like the idea.

I like where you're headed.

I like the idea.

You've got a clear idea for what you want to do being a live-in nanny.

It provides the income above what you were earning before.

And to George's point, it gives you the time to start investing 15%.

And you have the goal of one day, yeah, I want to put a down payment on a house and I want to live in a paid-for house.

I don't know if I'd go for a tiny house, but you get the idea.

Good luck.

All right.

Serious question, hard question.

If you died tomorrow, how would your family keep the lights on?

How would they pay the mortgage?

How would they afford groceries?

Here's the deal.

If anyone in your life depends on your income, you need life insurance.

The next question, how do you choose from all the options out there?

Because the truth is, there's a lot of garbage options out there.

It's simple.

Life insurance has one job to replace your income if you die.

Not your baby's income.

They don't need life insurance.

You don't need whole life insurance or permanent life insurance.

You just need term life insurance.

It's the only kind that does that.

It does that one thing only, replaces your income if you die.

The others like whole life, permanent life, they try to add in investing and they end up doing a terrible job at both.

And you only need life insurance while someone depends on you financially.

So if you're like most people, you need a policy worth 10 to 12 times your annual income for a term length of 15 to 20 years.

Because think about that.

If you follow the Ramsey baby steps, 15 or 20 years from now, you are completely debt-free.

House and everything, you've been investing for likely over a decade.

You've got a great nest egg.

And it should be a level term policy, meaning the premium stays the same.

It's 50 bucks a month for that 20-year period.

So if you want more info and resources on this, you can use our free term life insurance guide.

Just go to ramseysolutions.com/slash term life guide or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast.

All right, Dahlia is up next in Chicago.

What's going on, Dahlia?

Dahlia?

Hi.

So I'm just calling to see about

if you guys have any ideas on how to find money for an adoption.

Oh, wow.

All right.

What led you guys to this spot?

Yes, my husband and I have been married almost 10 years.

We have two biological daughters.

Before we had them, we had been told we might not be able to have kids, and that was something we kind of prayed about and really felt God put on our hearts to grow our family through adoption.

So we had our two bio kids, and then still through all of that, we've really felt like this is something God wants us to do.

Wow.

And

yeah, so it's been about five years.

We're on the waiting for a match.

And then just about a month ago, we got a call that we got matched with a birth mom.

And she's due.

Yeah, she's due in the next like week.

Oh, gosh.

So this is coming fast.

I don't know.

So you'll have to educate me a little here.

What's it cost?

What's it cost to adopt?

Oh, you broke up on us, Dahlia, right at the juicy part.

Are you with us still?

Hello.

Okay, there we go.

Hello here.

Did you hear my question, Dahlia?

Yes.

So we're right about the average, which is 40,000.

Okay.

And this is in two weeks.

So what do you have laying around money-wise?

Like, what do you, what assets do you have?

Yeah, so we have our house, our home.

We still owe about $320,000 on it.

And then we had our savings, which we had about $30,000 or like $20,000, $27,000.

So we've paid already $12,000 deposits that have been

requested as the date gets closer.

So we've paid about 12 of our own savings.

And then we had a big sale at church and raised about four.

And then a few family members giving us some money as well.

So we're about at, I think, close to like 20 that we still need.

Okay.

So how much do you have now?

Yeah.

Like on things you can liquidate that you could use toward this?

I mean, other than the house, I don't know.

So you have nothing in savings?

I thought you said you had 30,000 in savings.

Yes.

So we have about like 16 and a half left because we also have to pay.

She's in a different state than us.

So we have to pay to fly there, stay there for three weeks at least for all the legal process.

So that's like Airbnb, car rental.

So that's been coming out of our savings as well.

So let me

let me recap this to make sure I'm tracking with you.

Did you tell me it was,

forget the Airbnb stay stuff, but just the adoption, you said it's $40,000.

And did you tell me you've already paid $12,000?

So you only owe $28,000?

Yes.

And then we've raised some money through church and

well, let's

walk slowly with me.

So you said $4,000 from church.

So now you're at $24,000.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay.

And then we still haven't touched your, did the $12,000 come from your original $27 that you had saved?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

Now I'm trying to.

How much are you down to across your checking and savings accounts?

Should be 15.

Yeah, like 16,500, I think, around there.

Okay, so we're about 10,000 off, right?

Does that sound sound right?

Yeah, what do you still owe versus what you have?

So we still owe the 20,000, about 20,000.

Okay, and you have 16 and a half.

So we're $3,500 short.

Okay.

That's the math we're trying to solve right now is we're $3,500 short, and we need this money in two weeks, you said?

Or when is it actually due?

Is all of it due in two weeks?

Yes, so it's all due when the papers are signed.

And we, because that's all we really have, obviously, if we have no choice, we will.

But we're trying to figure out if there was like a loan or something because

we obviously have, you know, small kids and we're a young family and we want to make sure we have emergency fund.

Right.

And you have a community around you.

You've got friends, family, church, and you've tapped into that a little bit.

You said there's a go fund, there's a go fund me?

Yeah.

Okay.

And okay.

So,

so I I would go to all extents to not take out a loan for this.

And

I don't know if that's you guys reminding people of the story that you're trying to accomplish here with this adoption through the GoFundMe.

I, you know, and trying to kind of amp that up a little bit.

And now that there's a timeline, I think people get more excited, whether it's a child or anything else on the horizon.

When you go, guys, we've been placed.

I'm sending an update to everyone I know.

I'm writing letters to my neighbors, to my church, to my family.

We are on the the cusp of this and we are so close to our goal, but we're just so short.

I feel like my heart just goes, oh my gosh, I want to give.

I want to be a part of this.

Like, we're at the finish line here at the marathon.

So I would do everything in my power to do all of that while doing side hustles for the next two weeks, while selling everything I can that's not tied down.

Everything.

Like act like this is the $3,500 debt that must be paid in the next two weeks.

Yeah, because this, I mean, really, what's on the, this gets you your baby, you know, this gets you your family member.

So I'm like, nothing's off the table.

I mean, I'm not selling the the house, but nothing's off the table.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, so I would go ham on this.

And then there's also, I don't know, we didn't ask you your income, but how much margin do you have at the end of every month after you've paid your bills and everything?

About 2,000.

Okay, so that's, I would be saying this whole Airbnb thing and bringing this can't, this needs to cost us $2,000, like this stay, where you need to figure this out.

Does somebody

can let us stay crash there or use their Airbnb for free because of what we're trying to do here?

This ain't no vacation.

We're trying to get our baby home.

This is when

you take to social media and you make sure everybody knows this story and what you're trying to do and you're on a tight time crunch and see if people get generous.

And I'd be doing everything so that I don't have to take out debt because this is something that's supposed to be.

exciting and joy-filled and debt just has a way of putting a damper on stuff like that.

100%.

Yeah, I can't, in good faith, tell you, just go take out a loan.

I think it's going to make it all the more sweet and joyful when you guys cashflow this whole thing and you write that final check and you just get to go home and focus on that baby.

Yeah.

Listen, send me the GoFundMe.

Put me on.

DM it to Jade.

She's on it.

Okay.

Thank you.

Nobody else, though.

Don't get any ideas, guys.

Don't be DMing Jade all your GoFundMe.

Listen, I remember.

This is Dahlia from Chicago.

If you're not Dahlia, keep scrolling, okay?

That's so exciting.

We're so happy for you, Dahlia.

This is a very exciting time, and you guys have done a great job getting prepared, and what a wonderful thing.

You know, the world is a dark place, and you get calls like Dahlia, and they're wanting to adopt.

Really great.

We had two wonderful bio kids, and they're going, you know what?

We just want to take care of another little baby who might need some love and support.

So good.

A beautiful thing.

And a calling.

For sure.

100%.

And I would be tapping back into that church.

I mean, I would have zero shame at this point.

Zero.

No shame in that game.

This is not a selfish thing you're doing.

No, that's why I said take to the interwebs.

Get in there.

Tell the story.

People.

the story.

Reddit threads.

I'd be tweeting, Xing, Instagramming.

And the timeline, too.

Like, we only have 10 days left.

Like, yeah.

We're going to get this thing done, Dahlia.

I can't wait.

Thank you for sharing the story.

Rooting for you.

All right, that puts this hour of the Ramsay Show in the books.

We'll be back, so make good decisions until then.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio.

I'm George Camill, joined by Jade Warshaw this hour, and the the number to call is 888-825-5225.

If you want to join the conversation and pose your question for the good of the group and for the good of America, Chris has chosen to do that.

He's in Washington.

What's going on, Chris?

Hi, guys.

Thanks for taking my call.

I really appreciate it.

Sure.

How can we help?

So my wife and I, we're new parents.

Well, relatively new.

Our son's nine months old.

I'm super excited about that.

We made the decision decision to have her stay home because daycare was too expensive.

And we're just trying to figure out if you guys have any tips and tricks to,

you know, managing our money going forward and making sure that we're setting ourselves up for success in retirement and setting him up for college and all that good stuff.

Yeah.

So what was she making before she decided to stay home?

She was making about $75,000 a year.

Okay.

And

what do you make?

I currently make $110 roughly annually, and then I have a side business that I run that brings in anywhere from $20 to $45 a year.

Okay.

So we'll just say that you're at $130.

You feel good about that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so have you guys done a new every dollar budget with this $130?

Because how much does that allow you to take home every month?

You know, that's that's been really, really new for us.

And so, you know, if I had to put a number on it, I mean, our more we have our mortgage we have no other consumer debt we've done a really really good job got all of our vehicles paid off and everything like that

and so you know our mortgage is roughly 2400 a month and then living expenses you know add another you know 300 350 yeah I don't think your mortgage is going to be the problem I think

things feel like clarity I'm wondering it sounds like you have like a little bit of regret like oh should we have done this things feel tight so where is that coming from?

Yeah, I just, I'm, I'm so

analytical when it comes to like looking at our budget.

And we've, you know, both worked really, really hard coming out of, you know, roughly $95,000 in student loan debt, you know, over the past three years.

And,

you know, we've, we've just worked really, really hard.

And I don't ever want to put our family in a place where we're in in need for money.

You know what I mean?

And

we've done a really, really good job of that.

We We have a bunch of money put aside already, you know.

And right, sorry, you're following the baby steps to a T?

Yeah, pretty, I mean, I would say so, yeah.

You said that, but you didn't answer the question when I said how much you're bringing home every month.

Oh, yeah, I mean, we bring home probably,

let's see,

40, no, 6800 a month, roughly.

So, I'm gonna challenge after I'm gonna challenge you to for your own good because you described yourself in one way.

And don't get me wrong, it probably was the way that you were before you had an eight-month-old.

You said, I'm very analytical, and I'm really on this.

But the truth is, right now, you're actually not on your numbers.

You're kind of guessing at them.

And I have a theory that the reason that you're feeling that

tightness or that feeling of like you don't like the way your money is feeling, I think it's more because you don't know exactly what's going on and you don't have a clear path and plan for it.

That's why I asked about your every dollar budget, because if you look at that tonight with your wife, once the baby's down, once you guys have, you know, had something to eat and you say, okay, we're going to look at every dollar tonight.

We're going to plug in our numbers.

We're going to log on HR and find out exactly what the check is.

And now we're going to plug in the mortgage, everything we think we're spending money on.

What does life look like now with an eight-month-old?

How much are we spending on diapers now versus when the baby was first born?

All of those things are going to give you a a much clearer picture on what it looks like today with the new lifestyle that you're in today.

And I think that's actually going to help you because 130,000

where you live, I think you should be okay.

Now, don't get me wrong, to lose 75,000 a year is a lot of money.

But that actually led me to my other point of it's just one baby, right?

Right.

And you're telling me that it costs $75,000 a year to daycare one baby.

That's not true.

No, no, it wasn't much of that.

It was, you know, more so, you know, I want A, right, it was expensive to do daycare, and B,

for the amount of money it was going to cost us, you know,

she wanted to stay home and wanted to

raise our son, and which is fine, that's fine, but the way you framed it was it wasn't worth it for her to go to work.

You made it seem like it was more of a cost thing, so it's just personal values.

Yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, you're right, and that's fine.

I think all of that, though, what I'm trying to get you to is clarity.

And I think if you can clearly say, we're doing this because we value mom being at home with baby, that is a whole different conversation than it's too expensive.

We can't afford daycare.

Right.

So now you're talking about real things, which is, no, this is a value of ours, which knowing that is also going to reflect how you feel now about the budget being shorter because you've said, no, in our hearts, we want this.

So now we are able to tackle a smaller budget or working with a smaller income.

Do you see what I'm saying?

I'm just trying to get real.

I mean, George, you know how it feels to have an eight-month-old at the house.

You're not thinking born, a two-year-old.

Life is chaotic.

And that's where you and your wife are sitting down looking at the budget every month and just going, okay, I want to bring seven grand in this month, and our mortgage is $2,400.

We're going to have $1,000 left over.

What are we going to do with this?

And for you guys, you already have the emergency fund?

Yes, we do.

Are you investing 15% out of every paycheck?

We are.

Okay.

And then beyond that, how much margin would you say you have at the end of every month, or is it disappearing into random spending?

I would say more disappearing into random spending.

I think that's what's making you feel out of control because you're analytical.

You're going, the math ain't mathing.

There should be two grand laying around, and it's gone.

And it's amazing.

If you like, take all the receipts of all the money you spent, it'll make a little bitty book of the reasons why we feel that way.

And so that's where budgeting with the new Every Dollar, with your bank connected, the transactions are flowing in, total transparency and accountability with you and your wife.

And then you might decide, oh, you know what?

Yeah, we need to be spending more.

Because she's like, dude, I'm spending it on things the family needs.

We just need to up the budget line item to account for that instead of going red flag, red flag, you're over budget.

So I think there's probably just some discongruity with like what you're actually spending versus what you think you're spending.

Yeah.

Your life has changed a lot.

And I mean, there's the kid, and then there's, yeah, wife is at home.

Money-wise, things have changed.

And it's just like George said, reflecting your, your, your line items to updating your line items to reflect that change.

Yep.

No, I appreciate that a lot.

And that's something that we've actually embarked on recently is kind of combining our finances, just listening to you guys and kind of buying into that, buying into that idea of becoming a unit, you know, and we're working through those things.

And so I really appreciate the feedback.

I love it.

I think you're doing a great job.

And I think that you're a...

You're doing better than you think.

Uh-huh.

And you're a reflection of the fact that this this whole thing is a process like no one just in one day or in one listen or in one movement gets it all it is like building blocks stacking on each other and like you said first we did the combined finance thing then we did the debt payoff thing all of that is stacking up and I just I think you're doing fabulous are you using a spreadsheet right now or are you using a budgeting app

yeah we're using we're using a spreadsheet because that's that's uh how many times has she said hey can I look at that budget spreadsheet that sounds fun

zero thank you Final answer, Your Honor.

I'm case closed on that.

We're going to send you the brand new all-new every dollar for you to have something that not only would a wife like to look at, but now she doesn't have to say, can I see that spreadsheet?

You can just say,

she'll open her own app and be able to see it.

There we go.

That'll help get her on board on top of combining finances.

Proud of you guys.

You're making progress, man.

That's all you can hope for.

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When you were saying that Eminem's Lose Yourself was playing when you were like, You've just got this one chance, one chance.

I heard the music in my head.

That's the most jade thing I can think of.

There's worse songs you get stuck in your head.

Oh boy, I'm sorry, Mom Spaghetti, what can you do?

I know.

All right.

Let's go to Indiana.

Ann joins us there.

And welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi.

Thanks for taking my call.

Sure.

My quick question is, I'm in my early 60s, recently divorced.

I am

debt-free, but I'm used to supplementing my income versus living off on my own income.

So my income is about $40,000 a year.

And so I'm renting right now.

I found this apartment that I can afford

and just trying to decide for my future, should I consider purchasing or just continue to rent?

You know, I know the difference, you know, if something breaks here, they help pay for it versus being a homeowner and all those expenses.

So there's no debt.

Do you have any assets?

Do you have any money anywhere?

Retirement?

Yeah.

So I have like $150K in retirement.

Okay.

I've got my emergency fund of $10K.

And then I have another $45K liquid that I have access to.

I've got a paid-for car, which is dependable.

It's going to last me for years.

Good.

I do have grandma inheritance.

I lost her this past year, but I have about $380,000 there.

Great.

Okay.

So I just don't know, you know,

I'm probably going to work another five or seven years.

Okay, great.

What are you paying in rent?

Right now my monthly expenses are about $1,800

when I consider rent, all the utilities, internet.

Good.

I like the idea, And

a reasonable

house for someone, you know, of your needs, what does that cost you?

Because you seem like a reasonable lady who would give me a good answer or accurate answer.

If I just got a simple, like a starter home or even a condo.

And a townhouse.

Yeah.

In our area, I'm probably looking at hopefully just under $200,000.

Okay.

I love that as a goal for you.

and i think that it's 100 within your reach considering you've already got a decent amount saved uh you've got 45 liquid that's not really earmarked for anything um

and you can continue to add to that over time to put down the down payment or maybe that is enough of a down payment to get you where you want to be uh you can log on to our uh

home calculator and we'll put the link to that in the show notes for you.

But see what it would take to put the right down payment on.

Of course, we don't want it to be any more than 25% of your take-home.

And then from there, if you do say, My budget's $200,000, and then I'm going to work for however many extra years to pay this off, I think you could do that.

And if you got to the point where it's seven or eight years later and it's still not quite paid off, you could reach into that inherited money and that retirement fund that's been growing all this time and has likely doubled.

And you could just reach in and take the rest of it out and pay off the remainder after seven years.

Do you like that plan?

I've toyed with that idea.

I just worry about, you know,

it goes out, if it needs a roof, you know.

I don't know that I'm financially going to be in a place to feel comfortable taking care of all those.

Well, George can walk you through the numbers on that because

you've got a good start here.

Yeah, you can cash flow any repairs and expenses.

You'll have homeowners insurance to cover the big stuff.

And so you're really worried about those little things and kind of just maintenance and repairs, which isn't going to be, you know, $25,000 a year.

So I would buy a smart house that's not in disrepair.

You don't need to go buy a fixer-upper.

Oh, yeah.

I would buy something that's maybe a little bit newer and you know it's going to have less repairs and less ongoing maintenance.

You know, it's not like a 1950s bungalow that you got to keep up with.

But I like the idea: here's an option.

If you paid cash for a $200,000 home today, you would still have like $220,000 left over that you could invest, correct?

Yes.

So if you invested that on top of your $150,000,

if you were able and willing to work until like $70, you'd have $750,000 as a little nest egg for you on top of having no mortgage that whole time.

So you could even, that's without you adding a dime to your investments outside of grandma's inheritance plus your $150 that you have.

So I'm just trying to show you kind of the full picture of what your trade-offs are here.

Because the other thing is, homes are going to be more expensive if you wait five years.

So that $200,000 home is probably now worth $275,000.

That's right.

And so it's a moving target.

And I'd like to stabilize your biggest fixed expense, which is housing.

And you can do that by buying a house.

Now, you're always going to have homeowners, insurance, property taxes.

Those will always be ticking up slowly over time.

But you'll have the cushion to stomach that.

And I also want to go, how can we get you making more money than $40,000 at your age with your experience?

what are you doing for work

well I retired from a full-time career but I'm I'm doing more of a medical assistant work it was just something

took time off to to tend to my grandmother while she was ill and

so I was you know not working for several years so getting back in the game in the medical field which is just something I chose to change from I used to be crisis social work

yeah, you seem like just a person who has like your heart is just to help people take care of people.

That's who you are.

And you can make good money doing that.

So I just want to tell you, you don't need to just settle and go, well, this is all I can get at my age.

That's right.

I would go, what are the caretaking type jobs that I could get that I'm able to do?

And what will have you run it out?

What will your, I'm guessing you're waiting to take, obviously, take your social security.

What will it be when you take it?

When I take it, Ben,

it's going to to be about,

gosh, what was it?

Three

over a little over $3,000 a month.

Okay.

So you'll have that coming into

on top of whatever nest egg you've built.

So I feel good that you're going to be able to sustain, you're live a very frugal life, it seems.

So if you can keep your expenses low like you have been, I think getting a house in the near future, I mean, you have the money to do it and pay cash.

That's what I would do personally.

And then invest anything left over.

Okay.

Are you working with a financial advisor right now to help you plan all this out?

Yeah, yeah, I am.

Okay, good.

I'm just trying to decide on a,

should I just, I'm going to continue to rent for a year.

Okay.

So that I, you know, just because

it's a life-changing thing.

Well, after a big life change, I don't want to make a decision.

I understand.

That's wise.

Yeah, that's very wise.

So it's a year lease.

So I'm going to to stay here at least a year, rent, and then I'm happy.

I'm happy where I am.

Good.

And I can make it work financially.

I am taking care of myself.

Yeah, you are.

I was scared I couldn't do that.

I would just caution you not to get too comfortable in that rental phase because George is so right.

You want to stabilize that line item.

As you age, you don't, you know, it's hard to control prices of rent and all that.

So that's a fluctuating thing and we want to get you stability.

So while I think it's great for you to stay there for the year, run out your lease, like you said, get a handle on what this new life looks like, but uh, don't get so comfortable that you forget about the dream and the stability of owning your own home.

That's good wisdom.

How old was your grandma when she passed?

Um, 92.

Well, and those genetics play out.

You got another 30 years at least on this earth if you just do what grandma did.

And so, again, 30 years from now, who knows what rent will be?

I want to get you in something that you can call your own that stabilizes and gets rid of that payment every month.

We're rooting for you.

Hey, what's up?

Dr.

John Deloney here.

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Hey, are you staying on track with the baby steps?

Well, we've got a way for you to check.

You can take a quick quiz to check your progress and receive a personalized plan built just for you.

Simply head to the show notes on this episode, click on the link titled, Are You On Track with the Baby Steps?

and complete the quiz.

Nick is up next in Austin, Texas.

Nick, what's going on?

Hey, George George and Jade.

Thank you for taking my call.

Absolutely.

So at the start of this year, I had a wake-up call when I tried to take out another personal loan to pay for my shortages on my property taxes.

I also took a little bit extra for a trip, but I realized I had no money to live on because I had promised it all away with no interest or personal loans.

That's where I found you, George, specifically.

And with a little bit of time, I started following the Ramsey plan.

I started working 60 hours a week and did that from mid-February to mid-August.

I have attacked the debt like a gazelle, like Ramsey teaches.

And I can see myself debt-free from my home and everything in five years.

But my question is, I'm tired.

I'm exhausted now.

How do I keep going

and moving past

this point right now where I feel like it's never going to end?

Well, man, I'm proud of you.

You've already made some serious progress and big changes in your life, and I'm glad you had that wake-up call this year.

What's your debt remaining?

So I started the year with 82,000

roughly, 82,500 in

non-home debt.

Today, I'm at

about $50,500.

Wow.

Way to go.

You knocked out 30 grand so far, and you're like, dude, I'm not even halfway there.

How am I going to finish this race?

Exactly.

What's your income?

What have you been earning during this time?

So my take-home pay, or my

not take-home, but my, I guess, gross is I make $75,000 a year.

Okay.

And

so if I break that down, that's about

I didn't mean to cut you off, but that's about

$2,200 every two weeks.

So $4,400 a month.

Okay.

And are you doing summer hustles?

No.

But I was doing overtime.

Okay.

And so my take-home pay was like $7,500 a month.

Wow.

Great.

And you're saying you can't keep up with that pace.

What pace would you say, hey, I can keep up with this for another year and a half if I do 50 hours instead of 60?

That's what everyone keeps telling me.

I'm in the mindset of like, it's all or nothing.

And so I think that's where I'm getting like defeated at.

I get that.

I'm an all or nothing type of person myself.

But the truth is, if you get to that wall, you're going to have to, here's here's the options.

All or nothing is I get to the wall, which sounds like you're at now, and I just stop.

And then if I stop, that means I didn't accomplish my goal.

That means I didn't do what I set out to do.

And then I feel terrible about that, right?

So

it's important that you figure out how to be a person who can meet in the middle and say, here's what I can do.

Here's the most I can do in this season.

And then here's the most I can do in this season.

And here's what makes sense for this season.

So you've had what I'm going to call, you know, however many months, six, eight months of all-out sprinting.

And now you're like, you know what?

I just need to jog a little bit for a while.

Let me jog.

And then maybe that looks like to George's point, yeah, going down to 50 hours.

And then you might get your wind back and then you're ready to sprint again.

Do you see how that works?

Yeah.

And I think that's what's going to happen because you're still going to realize and get the feeling of, oh my gosh, this debt is going down.

I'm making extra payments.

You're still going to get that high.

You're still going to get that dopamine hit, but you're also going to, you know, keep your sanity intact at the same time.

And I'm telling you, that number is going to get to a point, that 50 at some point is going to get to 20 or 30, and you're going to want to sprint again.

You'll see some light at the end of the tunnel.

And the other thing I would encourage you to do, Nick, spread out the sacrifice.

So maybe it's not all overtime.

Maybe I'm willing to cut my expenses in this area, and that creates the same amount of margin so I can keep up the progress I was throwing at the debt.

So, have you looked at all of your expenses and done a pretty brutal, judicious audit of like, hey, I don't need this, I can live without this.

On top of, I can make more by doing this.

So

I have a, I,

George, I purchased your book like a month ago, and then I purchased the audio book because

I like listening to the book that you that you wrote.

But anyways,

um,

um, I started,

I think just a couple days ago, I walked, uh, you, you gave a free trial for the

Every Dollar.

There you go.

Yeah.

And so I logged in and

I've been trying to incorporate it, but I do an Excel sheet.

We do not have to do it.

Have you used the all-new Every Dollar, like with the coaching recommendations?

We just launched that.

I think that's going to be your ticket to give you a little fuel because there's so much, and you can read, I have a chapter in the book called Margin is Breathing Room where I lay out a whole bunch of ideas.

Well, now the all-new every dollar does that for you, and it's personalized based on what you have told us in your situation, your life, and what you're willing and able to do.

So, I think that's going to really help you on this journey.

But I want to encourage you: this is a normal feeling.

You're going to hit that wall where you're like, dude, I can't keep going.

And then you're going to go look at the numbers, find some new ideas, do some new recommendations, and it's going to give you a second win, like Jade said.

And also, your book,

The Margins of Error, is our breathing room, is chapter 12.

Yeah, I'm still on chapter 8.

Oh,

I don't want to give it away.

I don't want to give it away.

Everyone dies in the end.

I'm just kidding.

That would be wild if that's how I ended the book.

Nobody dies.

Only people find financial freedom.

That's it.

Hey, thanks so much for the call, man.

I love to hear the progress and how our stuff is helping you get to the path on debt freedom.

He's talking about real things, though.

The truth is, it's difficult to sustain a certain intensity over lengths of time.

And the longer the length of time for you listening, the harder it can be.

Some people, I mean, we see on average, yeah, it's usually about a two-year span.

You can knock it out, but some people are on a longer,

you know, course on this, three years, four years.

For Sam and I, it was seven and a half years.

And whatever, whenever that moment hits, the option is never to stop.

You can

change the intensity at which you're going.

And to George's point, you can start to find trade-offs in other places in the budget.

Another thing I like to do, George, is especially if you're a person who's side hustling and you're like, if I deliver, you know, one more pizza or one more Instacart, I'm going to scream.

Okay,

quit that side hustle and get a new one.

You know what I mean?

Because there's always the side hustle that you dread and that you hate.

And even if it might be making a lot of money, just put it on break for a while and do something else.

So it'd really get creative to keep things fresh in your mind.

And another thing, yeah, if you need to scale it back and jog for a little while, that is okay.

You're still making progress.

The point is making progress is not excuses.

It's one thing if you make an excuse and you stop.

It's another thing if you're like, hey, this is really happening and I just need to slow down a little bit.

Totally fine.

I will never fault anybody or yell at anybody for that.

I love that.

And you got to think about this.

What's more exhausting?

Living how you've been living for the next 10 years or just sticking it out for a year or two of grind where you're like, oh my goodness, because at least you're making progress.

The other one is just mediocrity and giving, giving up.

Yeah.

So you don't look at the baby steps as a pass-fail where it's like, if I don't go all in, then I'm not doing it at all.

I'm going to hit a wall.

If you get a B plus and you become debt-free, but it took you six months longer than you wanted it to, dude, you still won the, like, you did.

That's right.

You did it.

That's right.

Meanwhile, some people are on the treadmill and they're just walking at a breezy 3.3.

And I'm like, you need to click up the treadmill and see.

Let yourself sprint.

They've got a bunch of savings.

They could pay off the debt.

Yeah.

I'm going to keep my match with the employer.

I'm not going to cut my investing.

Not even breaking a sweat.

Some of y'all need to break a sweat.

Jade's out here judging you.

I just want you to know.

If you're Ramsey-ish,

get out of here.

Get out of here.

That was a pretty awful accent.

I got us.

I expected more.

Get out of here.

The more you do it, the worse it's getting, and I like it.

What if I go up octaves?

Get out of here.

Actually, it got better.

You got older and more curmudgeonly, which made it hit in a different way.

I appreciate that.

Only you could have brought that out, George.

Thanks for playing.

This is the Ramsey Show.

Our scripture of the day, Proverbs 11, 24, and 25.

One person gives freely, yet gains even more.

Another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty.

A generous person will prosper.

Whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.

Paul Stanley of KISS said, Charity is not an option, it's an obligation.

Left field quote from Paul Stanley, but we'll take it.

Not what I would expect.

The sentiment rings true.

All right.

Ann is in South Carolina up next.

And welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thank you for taking my phone call.

I'm 71 years old, retired.

My husband passed away last year.

I still own the home

of $114,000.

I do have money in an IRA account.

People are telling me, no, don't pay the house off,

but I am taking money from that account every month to make the payment.

So I'm afraid I will run out of money over time.

So I don't know what to do.

Should I pay the house off?

The interest rate is 1.99%,

or just keep taking away from

my

IRA account.

How much is in the IRA?

Total with money market, IRA,

some gold and silver, $327,000.

Okay.

How are you living right now?

You're needing to make the payment with the IRA money.

Do you have other income?

I do.

I have

Social Security.

How much is that?

It's $3,300.

And what's that mortgage payment every month?

Around $1,400.

Okay, so what's with taxes and everything.

Okay, so if you paid off the mortgage, you would free up the principal and interest.

So it's not going to be all $1,400.

Would it be closer to $1,000?

Yes.

Okay, because you still got to pay insurance and taxes and all that good stuff.

Correct.

So you free up $1,000, which means you don't need to tap into the IRA, but you've depleted the IRA down to, let's do the numbers for you here, down to $213,000 if you paid it off today.

Right.

So the question is, could you still live a full life and have a great retirement with your Social Security plus $213,000 in the IRA that you now don't need to touch?

Well,

that's the question.

Yeah.

So that, well, if you don't need to touch it, then the money is just going to sit there and grow.

I would caution you to not keep it in money markets and gold and silver.

I would have it in the market working for you to at least beat inflation.

Okay.

And so you can work with it.

Do you have a financial advisor that you trust right now?

I do.

Okay.

And he was telling me to move everything or at least what I have in the money market over to where he is

and let him put it

in.

And actually invest it for you.

Right.

Okay.

You said you're 71, and so if we run the numbers out, by the age of 80, if you just let that 213 sit there, you'd have over half a million dollars in that nest egg.

If you didn't touch it.

Oh, that was a good.

So you're 10, you're just going to live off Social Security, but you have no mortgage payment, and you're okay with that.

You're still going to do all the things you want to do?

Well, probably not, but I'm to the point that I've done pretty much everything I want to do.

And my thing is...

You're not skydiving or anything.

I'm not an emergency.

Yeah, do you have an emergency fund?

I have some.

Very little, though.

About $6,700.

Okay, I would pull some from that money market and keep it in a high-yield savings and keep it liquid and maybe have $20,000 as your emergency fund to just protect you from all the things that could happen in your life, the home maintenance and repairs and all that stuff.

Right.

What's your health like?

It's pretty good.

I do a little part-time job, but it's not.

Yeah.

Okay, that's what I was getting to.

I was getting to maybe having a little part-time job would also help supplement the 30, what is it, 3,300 that you're getting from social.

And that way,

you know, that's just giving you a little bit more pad.

Like George says, you have that emergency fund.

I really like that plan for you.

Because even if you took, let's say you took $1,000 a month from that IRA, you're likely never going to run out of money if you do that.

It's going to grow faster than you're depleting it.

Okay.

And so I just think the peace that comes with having a paid-for mortgage at your age is worth it, regardless of the spread you could have made because your friends are like, well, you have a low mortgage.

You could just leave the money invested.

You're way better off.

Don't ever pay off that mortgage.

Well, they don't pay your bills.

And so I'm not going to give them the 100% voting stock in your life.

I would do what you feel is best for you, not just financially, but for you emotionally and spiritually.

And for me, that's not owing anyone any money and having more freedom.

And you're likely going to be okay.

You're not destitute.

You don't have debt payments.

You have a very low, you know, cost of living right now.

And I would say you're going to be, I mean, you can crunch the numbers with a financial advisor.

This is just a guy doing napkin math on a podcast.

But it looks like you're going to have a full and wonderful life paying off that mortgage and leaving the money invested.

Now, the key is invested.

If you leave it in savings, it could get depleted while you're still on this earth.

Okay.

But if you take that 213 and invest it in the stock market, what we have seen over the last 50 years is about a 10%, 11% return.

And so your money would double about every seven years if you do that.

Hence, my numbers of having half a million dollars if you just left it alone.

Okay.

Well, that's that's to me, I feel like you're, you know, it would give me relief that this is paid for.

I don't have to worry about it.

I love it.

And I tell you this: like, you are my mom.

This is the same advice I would give to my own mother if she called in.

And so I'm wishing you the best.

You've done a really good job.

I'm so sorry for the loss of your husband.

How long were you guys married?

Thank you.

30.

Wow.

30 years.

Yeah, it was, it was

not expected.

So

it was.

What was his name?

Like

his, I'm sorry.

What was his name?

Michael.

Michael.

Sweet.

Well, and I'm rooting for you in the retirement, even if it's not the picture you had.

You've done a good job preparing for the future.

And I hope that you have a wonderful, long life ahead of you and a great retirement.

Let's move on to Alex in Raleigh, North Carolina.

What's going on, Alex?

Hey, George and Jade.

I appreciate you guys talking to me.

How are you?

Sure.

We're doing great.

Calling today because my wife and I, we're longtime Ramsey listeners.

We're on baby steps six and seven.

The only debt that we have is our mortgage.

Awesome.

And calling today because, you know, we have paid-for vehicles, we cash flow, house improvements, and my wife has decided that she wants to upgrade her Tahoe.

And the discussion is, you know, we can,

she's talked about getting a loan, and

I have a bonus coming up here shortly that would cover the amount of the loan.

But my question is, I'm trying to determine kind of what is, how do you determine what the proper amount to spend on upgrading a vehicle is, given our, you know, where we are in the baby steps.

And then also,

I, you know, I'm still pretty confident you guys are against getting a loan, period.

Yeah,

I'm more concerned with the fact, I'm less concerned about you spending cash on a Tahoe.

I think that you will be reasonable on that.

I'm more concerned with her even suggesting a loan.

What's happened there?

Why did she get so desperate?

That's the same question I asked.

Like I said, it's a nice vehicle.

It runs fine.

What's it going to cost to upgrade?

It's going to be anywhere between $15,000 and

$19,000 is what she's suggesting for the loan.

Their trade-in value on it or the sale value of it is about 20 grand.

And like I said, we finished up our, you know, our fiscal year with the company I'm with here recently, and I, you know, have a bonus come and feel confident that it will cover the amount of that loan.

I'm of the opinion, no, let's just wait till that money.

You're not getting a loan.

I'm telling you it right now.

Y'all are not getting a loan, Alex.

That's just a value in our house that we don't borrow money.

Yeah, so it's an easier conversation.

What's your household income?

We're a little over two.

Okay.

Yeah.

There's no, I 100% think that it's well within the bounds to spend 15 or 19 upgrading to a vehicle if you spend cash for it.

My parameters on this are kind of, you know, it's all about the financially smart adult checklist, and it's five things to go through.

You want to make sure you're a person who's budgeting, you're a person who's paying off your debt, you're a person who's saving, right?

You've got your emergency fund, you're doing your 15%, you're a person who values generosity, and you're a person who carries the proper insurances.

If that's true, which it is, you're on baby step six, you can do this, but you cannot consider debt for this.

Get the car, but do it the right way, my friend.

That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.

Until next time, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.