64. Terror Strikes London: The Al-Qaeda Mastermind (Ep 3)

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Breaking news we're getting from the PA Newswire that there's been reports of an explosion outside Liverpool Street Station.

Well, there may be some time we need I'd be hosting the water to Russell doing things crossed.

Most Londoners actually are not going to be afraid by this.

I think they're going to continue their daily business.

We consider the attack last week on British soil an attack on the civilized world.

And what we are confronting here is an evil ideology.

It is not a clash of civilizations.

All civilized people, Muslim or other, feel revulsion at it.

Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.

We are at war, and I am a soldier.

Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people, and your support of them makes you directly responsible.

Until we feel security, you will be our target.

Until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment, and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight.

Well, welcome to The Rest is Classified.

I'm David McCloskey.

And I'm Gulen Carrera.

And that was the video testimony of bomber Mohammed Sadiq Khan, MSK, released after he died, killed himself in the July 7th attacks, which killed 52 people in London in 2005.

And last time, Gordon, we looked at who the bombers were, how they had appeared in another MI5 counterterrorism investigation, albeit kind of obliquely.

And we left with MSK and his accomplice, Tanwir, involved in jihadist activity in the UK, but really not, it seems, planning an attack in London.

They, like when we last left, were headed off to to pakistan and they are going to go there in late 2004 and everything is going to change that's right and i think the pakistan connection is crucial to understanding 7-7

and to understanding really what was going on in in kind of terrorism in the uk in that period because it is out in pakistan that the plot that's going to become 7.7 comes to fruition.

It's where Mohammed Sadiq Khan and Tamwa are going to meet the key figure who's behind not just 7-7, but also a series of other attacks, not just that year, but into the future.

Some of the biggest actually that were planned in the post-9-11 period.

So it is significant, and it's going to show that link really to al-Qaeda, which took a while to become clear, I think, at the time.

So yeah, the two Brits, Tanwir and Mohammed Siddiq Khan, are going to go out in November 2004.

Worth saying, I think we touched on this last time.

Mohamed Sidiq Khan actually leaves a video for his young daughter suggesting he's never going to see her again.

So he is going out there with the expectation he's going to kind of fight and die probably in Afghanistan, but not come back.

And his wife, Hasina Patel, is witting that he may not return.

Well, that seems to be the implication, yeah.

So she sees the video and sort of understands that he's got the video is being left basically saying, I'm not coming back.

Now, it is interesting because we also touched on this last time that it's not his first time out there to the camps.

And it's worth saying, isn't it, that these camps have existed, and we talked about them in our bin Laden episodes, didn't we?

That these were there from the 90s, bin Laden and others.

And it's not just Bin Laden running these camps in kind of Pakistan and Afghanistan, jihadist camps.

And the lure of the camps is quite strong for people who are jihadist sympathizers.

You know, it's that idea you can go out there and you can fight and be involved in the struggle in some different way.

And we should say that this period when he goes to Pakistan, I guess the mental model maybe for listeners would be there are settled areas of Pakistan where the Pakistani government, which is a sort of frenemy of the US and UK, which sort of in one sense is helping us in the counterterrorism fight, in another sense is sort of double dealing.

But there are settled areas in which the Pakistani government actually has control, where its security forces can operate.

And then there are tribal areas, for example, in northwest Pakistan, where it's essentially ungoverned.

And that's where you can, if you get into Pakistan, you can then be brought up to these tribal areas.

The mental model here is where these guys are headed eventually is going to be a completely ungoverned space on the globe.

And it is interesting because some of those jihadist groups which are operating there, there is al-Qaeda, but there are also other groups.

So for instance, Pakistani jihadist groups who are being trained to go fight in Kashmir, which is a big cause for people.

So the first thing which has attracted Mohammed Sadiq Khan to this cause is the kind of Kashmiri cause, which is a big one for Pakistanis.

And he's gone out there pre-9-11 to get involved with those camps rather than if you like al-Qaeda then 2003 he's out there at the same time as we looked at last time as some of these crevice plotters but again he's at some of these jihadist camps but not necessarily been trained to carry out attacks to the UK and now this would also be before the tempo of that conflict really increases so a lot of these spaces would be relatively safe yeah for al-Qaeda members.

And going back to your friendemi point, of course, to some extent, some of those groups are quite closely aligned and used by Pakistani intelligence and the Pakistani state, like the ISI, the Kashmiri groups are always thought to have a kind of relationship with them.

So, you know, it's complicated how far this is something which the Pakistanis know about and have got a grip on.

I don't think it's easy to say.

So he's gone out there.

Now, what changes out there?

And the crucial thing is he basically meets one person.

And this person is really significant in our story.

And it's a person person called Rashid Ralph.

Best detail on this comes from Raffaello Pancucci's book, We Love Death as You Love Life, which looks at this.

Now Ralph is a really interesting, significant figure because he's an example of the kind of close links between the UK and Pakistan, which have become a feature of this period.

So he's born in Pakistan in a place called Mirpur around 1981.

and then his father brings him over to Birmingham as a child.

Now, Mirpur is a really significant part of the kind of Kashmiri region over which India and Pakistan have fought these wars, including recently.

It's a large number of people displaced and lots of them make their way to the UK.

So actually at one point there are estimates that something like 60% of the Pakistani community in the UK is somehow linked to Mirpur.

So it's got really strong connections with the UK.

And so what that means is that the issue of Kashmir, the kind of Kashmiri fight and jihadist struggle against India, has more purchase in that UK community.

And so what you see is, I mean, from the 80s, but especially from the 90s, it's really impacting on that community.

And you're starting to get people going back and forth from the UK to Pakistan and Afghanistan to training camps.

And is MI5, obviously, is cognizant of this dynamic, but is it just an issue of,

well, 99.9% of the people who are going between the UK and Pakistan are doing so because their extended family is there.

Yeah, 400,000 visits a year around this time to Pakistan.

400,000.

So, you know, you've got, that's too many to kind of investigate who they are.

And yeah, a tiny, tiny, tiny proportion might be going to these camps.

But of course, until you get to this period, there's no sense that that's a particular threat.

But you're also getting then jihadists coming to Britain, places like Birmingham in the 1990s, raising money for Kashmir and jihadist groups.

So it's starting to have an impact in the community.

And Rashid Raouth, this figure, is in that community where kind of radical jihadist thought is pretty normal.

But then he's also a bit of a black sheep in his family and in spring 2002 he flees britain back to pakistan with a friend now the reason is is interesting that he and the friend are implicated in the stabbing to death of one of his own uncles nice guy was he a black sheep before the stabbing yeah i think he was okay so do we know why he was a black sheep no i think the proclivity towards stabbing stabbing yeah is maybe not maybe one side of it and it isn't quite clear I don't think everyone's quite worked it out if the stabbing was kind of jihadist related or if it's just family politics arranged marriages some kind of clash so he's he's left britain and that community for pakistan and there he gets even deeper into this jihadist world so he marries into a radical circle of of preachers and he starts to come into contact with al-Qaeda so he's stabbed his uncle yeah is mi5 or is anyone in

the middle interested in getting him back from Pakistan?

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

But there was no attempt to sort of extricate him like him.

And I think he's then gone to the tribal areas.

He's effectively fled.

And he's moving around, actually.

So he's not just in the tribal areas, because we'll see.

He's in Rao Pindi as well.

But he is in that period after he flees, then coming into contact with al-Qaeda.

Now, he's quite low-level, but his role becomes connecting Britons who are coming over.

to al-Qaeda.

So he is putting them in touch with the right people.

He's almost like a kind of talent scout who's spotting Britons coming over who are interested in maybe getting involved in jihadism somehow and going, you're potentially useful to al-qaida and of course it makes sense because he knows britons enough yeah to kind of vet them to check them and work out that they're not for instance spies and pretty valuable it's quite valuable yeah yeah and he's trusted by the kind of al-Qaeda block because he's married into that world and he's part of it so he is this kind of bridge so he is looking for Brits and then in late 2004 Mohammed Tadik Khan and Shahzad Tamwir arrive now Rashid Raf is given their phone numbers, but he waits a couple of weeks before making contact to kind of watch them, observe them, you know, see if they're being followed.

How does he get their numbers?

That's not clear.

Interesting.

One of a lot of mysteries.

Again, I think the feeling when you read about this and when you look into it is that there is a kind of, there are other people, you know, involved in this.

There's a wider community of jihadists and extremists who are connecting people up and doing things and, you know, who've never been publicly identified.

So eventually, after a few weeks, he calls them.

Ralph meets them in a car, which is owned by Tanwir, one of the two who have come out, uncle, and it's got a driver, which suggests they're reasonably well off.

The music is turned up loud so that the driver can't hear what they're talking about as they're in the car.

And Mohammed Siddi Khan apologises about the loud music, saying Tanwir's family would disapprove if they found out about this conversation.

So Ralph is effectively recruiting them, and then he takes them to the tribal areas.

And he's going to introduce them to someone called Haji, now, who we think is Abu Abedu al-Masri, an Egyptian operational commander and part of al-Qaeda and someone who's going to be involved in plots.

Now, he seems to be the one who persuades them that rather than fighting and dying out there, he's going to attack the UK.

Do we have any sense of how he made that argument?

Because it does seem to be a pretty significant jump.

Maybe not, but I think...

I think from the mentality of MSK or Tanwir, that there would seem to be a pretty big difference between going, for example, into Kashmir and

being

part of an actual battlefront

versus going back to London and killing fellow Britons, right?

I know they don't really see themselves as Britons, but yeah, it seems like that wouldn't happen overnight.

No, I mean, it's a good question.

I think, of course, we don't know what happened inside their heads.

No, I guess they're totally isolated.

Yeah, they're totally isolated.

I mean, you could imagine a few things.

I mean, one is, to some extent, being taken to the tribal areas and meeting these al-Qaeda leaders.

There's a sense of like, this is a big deal.

And you're being kind of told this is a big deal.

And you're being introduced into this world where suddenly you're being told, no, you can have a mission to do something bigger than you thought, rather than just going and being a random soldier there.

The context is interesting.

So this is, you know, you read a bit at the start from the video that Mohammad Sadiq Khan is going to record.

And he's going to record that out there at this time, we think.

And you get a bit of a flavor for the arguments that that have infected him he is saying western governments are responsible for invasions of muslim lands and the people ordinary people are legitimate targets because they've elected those governments that's the argument i think it's worth saying iraq has just happened in 2003 iraq war has just started so i think that as a factor and you know he and others refer to that and that context so you can see why that argument that al-Qaeda is pushing has more purchase at that time, I think.

It's an extension of the bin Laden argument that

because

the West has sort of attacked and invaded the Islamic world, the West needs to be attacked at home

to sort of feel that pain and pull back.

I guess we also had, we mentioned it, I think in the last episode, that we also have the example of what happened in Madrid, where attacks on civilian infrastructure led.

to a change in government that then withdrew the Spanish contingent from the Iraq war.

The other thing, you know, that I think we talked about this a bit in the bin Laden series that I don't think listeners should forget is that what these guys think they're signing up for, which to us looks like a death cult, to them is worship.

They don't believe that they're killing innocent people.

They believe they're worshiping God.

And so what they're doing here is a sort of intimate religious act that is going to get them immediately taken to paradise, which I I think we should not forget this.

This is the mentality here of these guys, I think, when they leave the tribal areas.

I mean, you must have looked into these videos and the kinds of people who did that in your CIA time to try and understand it.

I mean, it's hard to understand.

It's hard to understand.

I think I still kind of struggle with the mentality

of what's actually in these guys' heads when they do this.

But I really do think the mentality is worship and it's worship through death, which is why I think the Rafaela Pantucci book title is great.

We love death as you love life.

You know, there's this sort of connection between death and worship in this part of the jihadist world that is really powerful.

I think hard for us to understand.

Yeah.

Because, yes, so out there, he's going to record this tape, which is going to emerge later.

And from something that emerges, Ralph kind of leaves some notes which are later found.

You know, Ralph is supposedly annoyed because it's hard to film the video.

There's no natural light.

And they're reluctant to make the recordings because they were supposedly shy, but agreed because Haji had ordered them to.

So it's kind of, again, you you get that sense in which not suggesting they were coerced in any way, but you know, this is a powerful figure who is, who is, you know, telling them you need to do this.

This is what you should be doing.

This is your duty, if you like, of what you should do.

And it's some measure of coercion, even if it's unstated, I think is often part of these stories, too, of like, you're up there in the tribal areas.

Are you going to say no?

Are you really able to

say no?

I'm not saying that they're, I mean, they're doing this at their own will.

Yeah, yeah.

But there is something hanging over here, which is you're sort of isolated.

We, Al-Qaeda, can do things to you if you don't want to.

I think even recording the video here, and part of the reason why I'm speculating, they're sort of reluctant is you're kind of boxed in.

There is some history of people going out there, recording videos or being told to do stuff, and then going back and go, I don't want to do this, you know, and chickening out.

Maybe because they feel that pressure, but in this case, of course, they go ahead with it.

So, Ralph also takes them around the tribal areas and, interestingly enough, introduces them to a Syrian bomb maker.

And that is also a crucial part of the story because that Syrian bombmaker is going to teach teach them how to prepare the hydrogen peroxide devices.

And, you know, you remember from our earlier episodes that these are unique devices when they go off in Britain and they kind of recover the parts.

The Metropolitan Police Bomb Squad have never seen devices like this.

So that is an important part of the story.

How did they get to understand how to make these bombs?

Well, the answer is they're being taught by a bombmaker in the tribal areas.

I would imagine that they've picked an explosive device for the fact that you could source the material

right yeah in the uk for a lot of these external operations planners in al-qaeda i mean this is the trick is how do you find people who have passports yeah to get you into the west and also how do you create a situation in which they also have the bomb making not just the expertise but the ability to source those materials in a way that's not going to draw the attention of the authorities we saw with the crevice plot in the last episode the fertilizer so you want to find things you can buy without raising attention.

Yeah.

So this is all in this period from November 2004 to February.

And it's interesting at one point Mohammed Sadiq Khan suddenly tells his wife who thinks he's not coming back that actually he's coming back and she records that in a diary.

Ralph says he was actually eager to return to the UK with Mohammed Sadiq Khan and Tamware but it was too difficult for him to re-enter because he's wanted for that murder and he can't get a clean passport.

But Mohammed Sadiq Khan and Tamware themselves do return to the UK on February the 8th, 2005.

So maybe there with MSK and Tanware headed back to the UK.

Let's take a break.

And when we return, we'll see how they get on and stay under the radar when they return from Pakistan.

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Well, welcome back.

MSK and Tenwir are back in the UK from Pakistan.

And I guess Gordon, now, with this

idea planted, this plot hatched to actually conduct the 7-7 attacks, they're now trying to fly under the radar as much as possible.

Yeah, and that's a very deliberate decision by them.

And they're going to change their behavior.

So we've had the arrests of the crevice plotters, which was March 2004, so about a year earlier.

And of course, Mohammed Sadiq Khan and Tamwir know that they were linked to them and that therefore there is a risk that they might be somewhere in the databases.

So they are worried about surveillance, the signs are.

And they actually start acting in a slightly different way.

They do stuff like going to the cinema, things they wouldn't normally do,

just to not look like radical jihadists.

So they are trying to go dark.

They also start to use 15 operational phones.

Now, these are separate from their normal mobile phones.

And they just use these for contact between them.

They change them regularly.

So only used for their kind of closed group as that group comes together of four people and for planning the attack, which seems to be quite good security in some ways.

And I think probably reflects, I mean, I'm thinking back to the bin Laden series here of of in the early 2000s, this set of successes that we had, the UK had, the Pakistanis had in Pakistan, disrupting sort of al-Qaeda senior leadership that was living in the cities.

A lot of it had to do with cell phone management.

So I think there's probably been some lessons learned in how you manage phones.

This is where the threat comes from people going from the UK to then get this training in Pakistan is that they come back with some tradecraft

that they would not have had before.

I mean, you see when they're dealing with the crevice plotters, they're getting in and out of the car with them.

There's a connection that MI5 potentially could have made.

Now it's going to be a lot harder to sort of draw patterns out of their behavior.

Now, I mean, it probably is worth a refresher for our listeners on what does MI5 actually know about these guys.

Yeah, because we did look at that last time, but it is worth just thinking about it in those terms.

Good question.

Because I think MI5 do not know they've been to Pakistan.

They know that there were some people on the edges of Crevis who, if you like, on their list to look at, but not as top targets.

But they are still kind of unidentified males, you know, DNE.

MI5 would not have their names connected to that investment.

And you remember, they've followed some cars which have suggested a Sadiq Khan, but also a Hasina Patel, his wife.

So they've got these little bits of traces, but none of them connect back to this trip to Pakistan or the previous trip.

Because you'll remember Janae Babar, this guy in American custody, has seen pictures, but he didn't identify them.

So badly cropped pictures of MSK that he's shown and he says, basically, I don't know these guys.

MI5 knows that there were some people on the margins of Crevis who were talking about doing stuff in Pakistan, Afghanistan.

But they haven't linked it fully to either the name, the other traces of Mohammed Sadiq Khan, or the fact that they've now gone to Pakistan.

So they've got pieces of the puzzle, but they're not there together.

And presumably somewhere in the British system, there would be their names attached to a flight manifest that went to Pakistan.

But again, that's happening in the context of half million people a year who are going back and forth.

And at this point, there's nothing to flag those two, Tanwir and MSK, as being particularly of interest.

So you've got, I guess in theory, dots that you could connect that are scattered throughout the British system, but there's no no sort of like red flag that would exist to sort of connect these guys to al-Qaeda or to a plot in the UK.

Now, it is true.

If MI5 had started surveillance of them now,

they might have caught the plot.

But the question is, what would it have taken for MI5 to put them under surveillance now?

Were there enough of those red flags to do that?

Well, only if you put all those things together and maybe had a lead that they were doing something.

If they had not shown Junaid Babar, the jihadist in U.S.

custody, a picture that had MSK cropped out of it.

Yeah.

True.

He might have said, oh, he was in the camps in 2003.

But they're going to show him another picture later and he still doesn't recognize him.

I'm slightly suspicious whether he wanted to recognize him or not.

So they do come back and they do try and fly below the radar.

They rent one flat, then another.

The one in Alexandra Grove, we talked about...

previously where they're going to build the bombs.

We're not going to get into the bomb making.

It's best not to kind of give away the details on how to build the bombs.

But I think, you know, going to your point earlier, what's crucial is they can purchase most of the raw materials from hairdressing supply shops.

So it's kind of hydrogen peroxide based.

And actually, during this time, people notice that their hair is kind of discolored.

And that's because they're cooking up this hydrogen peroxide in the flat.

And, you know, they come up with cover stories about swimming pools.

Now, interesting enough, and this is also important, Mohammed Sadiq Khan is still in contact with Rashid Ralph on his operational phone, so separate from his normal mobile, multiple times.

Now, Ralph seems to call from a phone booth in Ralpindi.

There's text, other messages.

They use code words to avoid detection.

Now, crucial this, that Rashid Ralph is giving...

Mohammed Sadiq Khan advice when he's struggling with aspects of the bomb making.

Yeah.

Particularly on the concentration of the hydrogen peroxide.

And the last call is thought to be just five days before the bombing.

And this is important, that he is able to kind of remotely guide

on what's going on.

And I guess at that point, they're not under surveillance, and Rashid

is not under surveillance.

You know, in a way, that's the more interesting question: is if you'd had Ralph under surveillance by MI5, MI6, and Pakistanis or someone, that would have been the way to kind of spot this.

Because if you're seeing him making calls to the UK and you know he's a jihadist, in a way, I think that's the point of weakness on this, perhaps.

Which would have been particularly challenging if he's using phone booths.

Yeah, It's not like our friend Abu Abed al-Kuwaidi in the bin Laden, who's actually got his mobile that he's using to call his family.

So in this case, we've got, I mean, he's literally showing up at different phone booths and not calling on a mobile phone.

So even if GCHQ had had his selectors,

in this case, it might not have helped.

So these calls are going back and forth.

The bombers are making the bombs.

Looks like they do a Recky reconnaissance run about a week before the bombing, thought about the Bank of England or even going up to the G8 at Glen Eagles in Scotland at one point, but they picked the transport system.

That probably wouldn't have worked out if they'd gone up.

I've taken a lot of security.

Who picked the targets?

That's a good question.

We don't know the answer to that.

There's some suggestion they might have wanted to hit the transport system on the 6th, which is the opening day of the G8 summit, but possible that it got delayed for a day.

But they've clearly decided to hit the transport system.

And it does look like it is tied to be with this.

the G8 summit going on.

Okay.

Part of the message.

Just part of the message, because you've got all these Western leaders in the UK.

Whether it's tied to the kind of Olympics announcement, which they knew was on the 6th, and a bit less clear, and of course, you don't know which way that's going.

So they all head to London in the early morning of July 7th with these rucksacks, which weigh about 14 kilos.

And they've got ice packs, which are required to keep the bombs cool.

We talked earlier about the day itself, but one interesting point.

At four minutes past two on the day of the blast, so after the bombs are detonated, there is one further phone call made to Mohammad Sadiq Khan's operational phone, which comes from Rao Pindi in Pakistan.

So that looks like it's Rashid Ralph.

I mean, that's thought to be who it is.

It's hours after the attack.

Yeah.

So whether he's trying to find out what's happening or what's going on, it's not clear.

It had always been planned that it was a suicide bombing.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Why you'd make the call, maybe just to check.

I suppose at that point, maybe you're wondering if you're Rashid Ralph has someone backed out.

Yeah.

So you just make the call to check.

It's interesting, isn't it?

That is not the end of the story, particularly when it comes to July 2005, because that takes us really back up to the bombings where we started.

But just two weeks after 7.7,

something's going to happen.

There's going to be another attempted terrorist attack.

So July 21st, 2005.

And we're going to look at that partly because there is a connection to 7.7.

I think it's really interesting to understand that connection.

It wasn't always understood, I think, particularly at the time.

And the connection goes back through Pakistan and through Rashid Raof, as we'll learn.

But yeah, two weeks after 7.7, London's trying to get back on its feet almost immediately.

There were lots of security alerts, as you'd imagine.

The smallest thing would lead to the station being evacuated or, you know, suspicious packages, suspicious sightings.

You know, it was happening all over the place at that point.

But after two weeks, I think there was a feeling at that point, just got over the shock of it, just getting back to normal.

And then suddenly reports come in of something strange happening again on the tubes this time lunchtime around 1225 the first reports of a bomb scare at shepherd's bush tube which is in west london and it was actually just a few hundred yards from where i was kind of working at the time more reports then come in in the next few minutes of incidents on the tube and of course you know immediately you're like it's happening again it's happening again it's eerily similar there are three devices in rucksacks on the underground and the fourth on the bus what is different though this time and this is important part of the link and understanding it, is that the devices don't go off properly.

So there's a bang and smoke, but not a large explosion.

And then some people see a kind of bubbling, fizzing, popping yellow substance coming out of the rucksacks.

And four people who actually look surprised that they are still alive.

And it's worth remembering, we talked about this a few episodes ago.

the bubbling stuff in the bathtub, like pizza, you know, pizza being taken out of the oven.

It's similar stuff.

It looks the same now one person actually confronts one of these attempted bombers and you know also emerged there was a fifth plotter who abandoned his bomb but i think what's noticeable talking to people about it is that there was just total shock in mi5 and the police i mean just total shock because 7-7 they will say was awful emotionally because people had died but this is almost professionally more of a shock you should have been able to stop this yeah well i think it's two things.

One is, I think they thought that they got their hands around what the 7.7 plot was.

I think they felt like we now know who the plotters were.

They'd identified, you know, the four bombers.

And then suddenly you're like, are there more out there?

And the fact it's exactly two weeks later and it looks very similar, you know, tubes and bus,

you're immediately thinking, how many more?

Is this going to be?

every two weeks.

I think that is the feeling which is really rocking people in MI5 when you talk to them is like, did we miss it?

Is it copycats?

Is it connected?

How many waves?

Can we cope with this if it's going to be every two weeks?

How many more teams are there out there?

And do they know each other?

I think that, like, professionally, if you're a security service, is like really, really

profoundly disturbing.

Well, and if you have a gigantic population of second generation Pakistanis who are your sort of potential population to be radicalized, even if a very, very, very small number are sort of making this transit back and forth or going, you know, getting this kind of training and bomb making or whatever.

MI5 at the time we're talking about tens of people devoted to counter-cause I mean, it's not a large security service at this stage, so you wouldn't have the resources to deal with this if there is going to be kind of a wave.

Wave after wave after wave, yeah.

And so MI5 starts a new operation, you know, it's called Operation Hat.

Also a terrible another bad name, I think.

Yeah, and they have to create another one of these security service emergency rooms have to pull in more people you know they've already brought in people who are working on northern ireland on counter espionage and now they're having to they're basically bringing people straight off the induction courses absolute newbies are just like being brought in because they're stretched and of course the bigger problem this time is that they know that there are people who wanted to be suicide bombers who are willing to kill others and to die, but who've escaped.

Who've gotten out?

Who've gotten out.

You know, they've fled the scenes.

So effectively, you've got a manhunt.

And maybe there, Gordon, with a manhunt on in London after July 21st, 2005.

Let's end and we come back next time for the last episode in the series on 7-7, 2005 and its aftermath.

We'll look at the attack.

We'll look at this manhunt.

And I think we'll also come back to this big question of whether MI5

could have prevented all of this from happening.

But of course, listeners don't want to wait for that last episode.

You don't have to.

You can go to therestisclassified.com, join our declassified club, get access to everything early.

If not,

that's also fine.

We won't hold it against you.

We'll see you next time.

See you next time.

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