The MasterChef Disaster - What Happens Next?

Hello, and welcome to this stand-alone QA episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment.

I'm Marina Hyde.

And I'm Richard Alden, well done for studiously avoiding the term emergency podcast.

It is a stand-alone podcast about a developing news event, isn't it, Richard?

And specifically, it's been another great week for men in television.

We are talking about MasterChef and the firing of John Taraud and Greg Wallace.

And we're doing it because we had so many questions.

So we're leaving our regular Q ⁇ A thing as it is as a MasterChef rezone.

But we're going to answer all your questions about MasterChef on this one.

We've spoken to a lot of people involved on a lot of sides of this particular issue.

So hopefully we have some interesting information.

If you've mercifully been cryogenically cocooned from this story, which many people chose to be,

what happened is that a number of accusations were made about Greg Wallace

and there's been a long investigation by an independent law firm, Lewis Silkin, into allegations about what happened on the set of MasterChef.

We already know that Greg Wallace has been fired.

We now have discovered this week that John Taraude, his co-presenter, is

not returning.

He says he's been sacked and that nobody at the BBC told him.

And that

more on that later, by the way.

More on that later and that they also offered him a chance to leave by saying he was having you know it was a mental health issue and therefore he could sort of resign without it being

the accusations against him are for using racist language and yes maybe begin with a question from angela gledo who says when allegations have been upheld how do they reach that decision just as a sidebar i think what andrea's saying that you know you keep reading these stories allegations have been upheld against john john derode and greg wallace she says does more than one person person have to say it happened?

What about all the allegations not upheld?

Is it because no other person corroborated the allegation?

Yeah, so listen, this is not a court process.

No one's going to go to jail.

It's a process where Banerjee and the BBC have to make themselves certain of what happened and didn't happen, have to make themselves as certain as they possibly can be so they can then act on what's happened.

And there were all sorts of allegations.

Angela is absolutely right.

If an allegation is one person's word against another, difficult to uphold it.

You might believe the person, you might absolutely go, I genuinely believe that happened, but we can't prove it.

So we can't include that in our upheld things.

If, as you say, things are corroborated, it comes from more than one source.

It happened publicly, so it comes from a lot more than one source.

If it was documented at the time.

Or if somebody said to somebody, I've just gone into his dressing room and he doesn't have any trousers on and he knew I was coming in.

Then if you've said that to somebody at the time, then they can say, did you say, say, you know, so you're trying to do this sort of as much as possible 360 degree process where you're getting all the different so you're trying to be fair to the people being investigated, of course, because

things may not be true, but you're also trying to be fair to the people who are making the allegations.

And sometimes

the weight of allegations make you investigate.

Because if a lot of people are saying the same thing, you have to investigate.

But when you are investigating, by and large, you have to be as certain as you possibly can be, knowing that there could be lawsuits and all sorts of things coming afterwards.

You have to be as certain as you can be that you can release a report saying, we believe that these things happen.

These are the things that we have upheld and these are the reasons this person is being fired.

Because that person can always counter sue for wrongful dismissal or something like that.

So you need to have these, this is, you know,

it's a sort of employment law.

So in terms of the John Taraude thing, which was allegations of using racist language, John Tarode says, I don't recall it.

I don't believe it happened, he said.

But the people who've gone through that report and who've talked to people who are there at the time do believe it happened.

And by the way, there's all sorts of things that weren't upheld because they couldn't say for certain they believed it happened.

But, you know, on this particular occasion, this is not woke gone mad.

You know, he used, I think, probably the worst racial slur there is.

And they found that to be substantively true.

They found evidence that they were happy with that that was true.

He is saying, I definitely didn't do it.

I certainly can't remember it.

But that one was upheld.

And there may be further non-upheld, but lying on the record accusations in the same area.

That is the key thing about this is we're recording this on a Wednesday and more is going to come out on this story.

More people are going to come out and give their version of what happened on this story.

The BBC and Banner J, who are the production company and Mate MasterChef, have found enough evidence that they can go public and say we believe these things.

Feel free to sue us if you can, you know, if you think you can convince people that it didn't happen.

So

they're not going public with the things they're thinking, oh, we just heard this, but we can't really corroborate it.

They're going public with the things that they go, we believe this can stand up in a court of law.

We believe we have the evidence.

We have believe we have the people who've witnessed it who are happy to testify.

And so, yes, if it's-I was saying that there were a huge number of allegations, there were dozens of allegations that were upheld against Greg Wallace.

Yes.

My understanding is this is the only one that's been officially upheld.

It doesn't mean it'll be the only one that will be officially upheld, but for now, this was the only one that's officially upheld.

It was serious enough that as an organization, as the BBC, and if I were working at Banerjee, I would not be comfortable with that person working on a production that I was on.

And so, as you say,

I think they took John Tara aside, this is my understanding of the whole situation, and said, we believe that this happened.

We believe that you use this language.

He denied it.

They said to him, whether this is the BBC or Banerjee, but it was said to him,

We will accept if you want to take a year off, you have to do a mandatory training course to understand and accept that this is not something we particularly want in our workplace.

And listen, everyone listening to this works in places, and you know, occasionally there's toxicity, and it's you know, it's not great to be around.

so they said you can take a uh you can take a year off you do a course uh that was denied that was said no of course I'm not going to do that I didn't do this in the first place anyway so why would I ever do this they then make the decision that they can't go forward with the with any new series of MasterChef without him and again John Taraud I think in in in the sun said a couple of things he said he said the first I knew about it was I read it in the papers and that my understanding is that's not true the first thing he knew about it was when he was told it and the other thing he said was the BBC said, Why didn't you just say that you're going to quit because of mental health?

That was in the sun, I think.

And that definitive, I've rarely heard a more vehement denial from everyone involved that that conversation didn't, that certainly didn't happen.

You know, it was the only conversation was, we believe this happened.

We will give you a second chance at Lifeline, which is you take a year, you take a series off, you go and do something, talk to people who maybe persuade you that this is not the way to act in a certain workplace.

And he said he was not prepared to do that.

That's my understanding of the situation from speaking to lots of various people involved in this.

And we are going to hear more from everyone in this, I suspect, in the next few days.

I'm sure we'll hear more from John Taraud.

I'm sure we'll hear more from Banerjee and the BBC.

But that seems to be the BBC and Banerjee are very comfortable that they're in a legally, fairly watertight position, that this thing happened, and they can defend the evidence they have that it happened.

John Tourette is denying it absolutely, he said it definitely didn't happen.

And that's something for, I suspect, some sort of different court of law, or for the next week or so, the court of public opinion and the court of Instagram.

Yeah, I don't think you'd be massively looking forward to the Sunday papers if you were either of those two guys.

But what they've each tried to do,

just talking around this really, I suppose, is that they've each tried to get out in front of it by thinking if I do a step.

I mean, I would have thought after Greg Wallace's

quite slightly idiosyncratic five-page Instagram statement that John Taraude would think, maybe I'll just go about this a different way, but apparently not.

Apparently, he's taken a very similar route.

Yeah, so listener, he hasn't suggested that autism caused him to use a racial slur.

So listen,

he's learnt something.

It's still a day after the Sundays to come up with a defence.

We've had lots of questions as well about how was this allowed to go on?

What was the atmosphere

on that and i think we spoke before when when when we spoke about greg is this is a show that was a big hit for the bbc it's a show that

quite quickly on tv shows things become quite a closed shop and that um the presenters often can be at the head of that closed shop the presenters or sometimes you know exec producer or a series producer uh can i spoke to somebody who who

spoke to Greg Wells in 2017, I think, when some of the first allegations came out.

And this person said,

I said to Greg,

every single thing that happens on a production comes from the top, and you are the top.

So

the culture of this production is coming from you.

And

interestingly, since that discussion, I think only one of the complaints that was upheld was after that time.

So almost all of them were before that time.

Someone came in and said to him,

This is not acceptable.

This is not how we run a television program.

This is not how you run any sort of workplace.

And he seemed to have some sort of

understanding of that.

But if you have two presenters and you have the same production team and you have a hit show and a step before that, you know, the BBC after 10 series or something is not on set.

That's one of the absolute key things to remember.

If you're doing something like a house of games, someone might come up once a series because

they know

it's properly run.

So the oversight is not particularly there from the BBC.

And there there are very few productions who would want that oversight, is the truth.

But it does mean that cultures can prevail, and that seems to be what's happened here.

If

we look at all these allegations, and

it is...

It's that mix between the sort of total,

oh, I'm a cheeky greengrocer and I don't believe in hierarchies, but equally, it's such a, I mean, I can't even believe I'm going to say this, but it's such a power move to answer the door with no trousers on.

And so it's that mix between those two things.

And there's a certain type of, I don't want to say man, but certain type of presenter who just doesn't quite understand,

but or deliberately doesn't understand.

What I think is interesting in the case of these two is they were supposed to be that kind of, you know, double act.

They were slightly reminded me, I think, of a sort of, you know, pair of

organised crime gangsters.

And there would be

the animal and the clever one.

And maybe they were brothers, perhaps.

And, you know, John Droid always looked like he was going to say, you know, unfortunately, my brother has a very bad temper.

I should not like him to lose it with you today.

Yesterday he had cause to get annoyed.

And then Greg Wallace would be just standing there with the death stare.

That would be ashamed of something happening to those meringues, wouldn't it?

Exactly.

And yet, it's slightly funny how it's very similar, those kind of moves, where

it's an excess of power and it's not on an understanding of your position of responsibility.

And by the way, there's very few people, almost no one, saying,

this changed my life.

I couldn't believe what happened to me.

This is the most disgraceful thing that's ever happened.

But there's plenty of people going, I don't want to work in this environment.

And if you run a TV company, if you run a TV, so it's entertainment.

That's all it is.

You're not saving lives on a war zone.

It's entertainment.

And if you are being told time and time again, I am uncomfortable working in this environment, then you get a different presenter.

There's no, that's not wokery.

That is not, you can't say anything anymore.

That is just anyone listening to this who

works in a particular workplace.

That's, you know, if someone does it, if they're warned and they do it again.

But it's the sense that there might be a critical mass, and that finally you don't have to accept it anymore.

And that maybe lots of other productions will learn something from this particular furore

and things will get better.

And we're seeing this.

So they're not being thrown in prison.

They're simply being told it's probably best if you don't present a flagship BBC television program anymore.

But it's also amazing how so much of this type of behavior comes and people believe themselves to be completely indispensable to a show in which, challenge me on this if you like, the format is the star.

Master Chef works all around the world.

It works in loads of different formats.

Master Chef goes large.

It worked in the original studio version of it, which was Lloyd Grossman.

You know, all Master Chef works and works and works and works.

They don't even particularly have a chemistry on that show.

There's nothing when you're watching that show, you're not going, my God, it's like watching Melon Sue.

There's not, you know,

they have that, but they have that thing that I just described.

They also have the weirdness of the relationship.

It was also so weird.

Like, you know, it would always be like, like, I love John so much, he's my best man.

Even after John Giraude had been his best man, he said, we're not friends.

It's just like, there's something really odd is going on here.

And so it is proof.

We must go on to another question.

Next one comes from Stu Hosker, who says, what will the BBC do with previously filmed series of MasterChef that are still due to air now that Greg Wallace and John Giraude have been sacked following the report's findings?

Yeah, so this, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen with there's three different series.

There's Master Chef of the Professionals, which is safe because because it's marcus wearing and monica galetti um you then have celebrity one yeah and the celebrity one has been filmed but it's not due to go out till christmas so the bbc don't have to make a decision about that for now it is john tarode and it's grace dent yeah so no decision has been made but the main one is the is the big main series and as people probably know it was presented by john and greg i think as they got to the semifinal stages uh the allegations about greg came out and they replaced him with anna haught from the semi-finals none of this is ad we should just just reiterate.

So they've got this thing in the can, basically, but can't.

Yeah.

And Anna's that wonderful Irish chef who's brilliant on everything.

The feeling at the BBC and the feeling at Banerjee, having talked to everyone who has been on that show, is they would like to show it because they literally have spoken to, I think, pretty much every single contestant.

The contestants are saying, we would be gutted if this doesn't go out.

You know,

it's been a huge deal for what they've done, you know, going to Master Chef.

It makes careers as well.

You know, completely.

How many of them have ended up opening restaurants?

How

have a have a career from it and it's a huge challenge and it goes on for a long time and absolutely their their skills should be showcased I think so I think

well I'd be fairly confident in saying that the current plan is to show that series so that should that show because again it's due on quite soon so that's a decision they have to make quickly they've made the decision we're looking at the contestants what would the contestants like to happen and the contestants have said we would like it to go on air and if you don't want the bbc to waste money this is like obviously multi-million pounds.

Yes, we had quite a lot of questions as well about who carries the can for the cost, if

these programs are shelved.

And it's actually a slightly tricky one, this, because normally you would have insurance which says if something happens in between the show being recorded and the show going out, the insurance would cover it if there's no way of showing it.

However, if...

we're still in doubt as to culpability over why it's been cancelled or why it's been canned, it is almost impossible to get an answer from anyone, from anyone, people who've been in this situation before, as to who would pay for that because this is a substantial amount of money, a whole series of MasterChef, you know, it's in the millions.

My instinct would be that Banner J, the production company, would have to carry quite a lot of those costs because I don't think the insurers will.

The BBC would carry some of those costs as well.

And I think that, I don't think that enters in, by the way, to the decision to show that main series, but that just for a technical thing, for people people who are interested in that, normally, if the insurance don't pay, then the channel and the production company will team up and walk.

And the BBC would have to pull up something else in the schedule to replace it, and then they've got another whole setup.

So it ends up being very expensive one way or another.

Yeah, it really does.

But yeah, so Celebrity One, we wait and see what else comes out.

The Master Chef Professionals, that's absolutely fine.

And the regular one, the Civilian One, I think

is going to be shown, which will be interesting.

But it's as I say, and

they've done that because of

every single contestant.

I could be proved wrong here, there might be one who says no, but every contestant they're speaking to is saying we would love this show to go ahead.

They completely want it to go ahead.

And you can see why.

I suppose we have to say something slightly on the kind of wider BBC thing, which is that it's obviously coming at all with people always say there's a moment in every single story about the BBC that even involves the BBC where it just becomes a sort of referendum on the BBC.

And there's obviously been various controversies surrounding the Gaza coverage and sort of various other things.

And there's a sort of sense which I don't think should exist in an organisation of such enormity, which is doing so many different things.

Obviously, what happens on a cooking show really does have very little at all to do with what happens in terms of Gaza documentary coverage and so on.

But there is always a point where it just becomes something you can say, oh, and you know, this now the BBC is in a crisis.

Yeah, and to that, I would say, you know, the old thing of the signal and the noise, which is there is a huge amount of noise here, a huge amount of noise, and it uses a stick to beat all sorts of people with.

And, you know, I absolutely get it.

But what is the signal?

What has actually happened?

And it is two men have behaved, if we believe the allegations, unacceptably in the workplace.

They have been warned.

They have been given opportunities to redeem themselves.

They have not taken those opportunities.

And so therefore, on this particular thing, they are freelance people.

And so the company behind it have gone, we would rather you didn't do that that is all that has happened here and

nobody here is saying this traumatized me this ruined my life they're saying it was unacceptable they're not alleging criminality or anything like that yeah and again pretty much every workspace everyone knows a story about the things like this that happen someone gets you know you get spoken to you maybe you change your behavior if you don't change your behavior you're out.

I mean, that's, but because it's the BBC, because it's television, because it's a big story, it's suddenly this enormous thing.

And nobody is bigger than the format.

And that's another question that we have had.

What's the future of the brand?

Will it be rested again?

No.

There's absolutely no need to rest it.

MasterChef is

I cannot begin to tell you how profitable MasterChef is around the world.

It's huge in pretty much every territory.

It's a behemoth around the world.

It is a great show for the BBC.

As I say, it's not Anton Deck presenting this.

No.

You know, it's not, you know, suddenly the Saturday Night Takeaway

has to be presented by Alison Hammond and Dermot.

Although they would do a great job.

They did a great job.

But this is not the Greg Wallace John Toro show.

It's MasterChef.

It's the Chef's show.

So this is definitively a brand that will keep going and going and going, go from strength to strength.

And there's so many great food presenters.

Matt Tebbett is now doing stuff on

the Professionals one.

For example, he'd be an amazing host for it.

You know, Grace Dent hosted half of the Celebrity One, whether we see that or not, but obviously she can continue to present the Celebrity One very, very easily.

So, no, you've got

three series a year, and it will will absolutely sail on.

Absolutely.

Master Chef.

I mean, it'll be under a microscope, that's for sure, but it will sail on.

So, that wasn't an emergency podcast, it was a standalone podcast from the developing England live news event.

Exactly, and

there will be more to come on this at the weekend, I suspect.

Yes, but that's that's all the information we have at the moment.

Uh, and I hope that uh, I hope uh, there was some uh some useful info in there.

Thank you very much, and tomorrow we will return to regular service with our QA episode.

Master Chef Rezone.

Master Chefri Zone.

See you tomorrow.

See you tomorrow.