Prop Auctions, Celebrity Bodyguards & Football Chants

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Sky.

And when we say friends, we mean friends with excellent taste in television.

Absolutely.

And diving into my never-ending TV list is so seamless.

Sky does all the hard work for me by bringing whatever I want to watch across all my apps and channels into one place.

Now, let's not forget the blockbuster shows they bring us, Gangs of London, Day of the Jackal, all the different apps all in one place.

I like to say effortless input, exceptional output.

Do you like that?

Love it.

They keep us entertained and give us plenty to talk about.

They do, and let's be honest, we love a a good chat.

We do, Marina.

That's why I love voice search.

It's like having your very own TV assistant.

Just say what you're in the mood for, and boom.

I've just got into the habit of saying Glenn Powell into my remote, and Sky will pull up everything he's in.

It's like magic.

Yeah, if I know Skye in a few years, Glenn Powell will literally walk into your room.

So be really careful what you say.

If you know Glenn Powell, he will.

Yeah.

For now, stick to telly.

Discover more at sky.com.

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana.

Got a car to sell, but no time to waste?

Hop onto Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds.

All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions, and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over.

They even offer same-day pickup in many cities.

Save your time, score some cash, and sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.

Pickup times vary.

Please may apply.

This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke.

You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh?

An ice-cold Diet Coke isn't just a break.

It's your chance to catch your breath and savor a moment that's all about you.

Always refreshing, still the same great taste.

Diet Coke, make time for you time.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Resters Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition.

I'm Marina Hyde.

And I'm Richard Osman, live from Morocco.

I say live.

How are are you, Marina?

I'm very well.

I mean, I'm jealous in London is all I can say of your Morocco jaunt.

What's the weather like?

I forget London.

I forget what it's like.

Tell me about the old town.

It was all right at the weekend, and it's taken a dive.

But that's okay.

That's okay.

I'm going to be back very soon, though.

I'm back for the BAFTAs on Sunday, where House and James is going to lose once again.

Excited to see who we lose to this time.

Well, it's always sunny on this podcast, Richard.

Oh,

yeah, it's always sunny on this podcast.

And we're about to get in some questions.

By the way, I should say tomorrow, we've got a bonus episode for our members.

You can join at the restisentertainment.com.

And it's 50 years since the launch of Monty Python's Flying Circus.

And we're going to start a little series on...

that kind of amazing moment in comedy and where it spooled off into, which I think will be lots of fun.

We've got some fun little stories in there, haven't we?

Yes, we most certainly have.

But now,

let's get into some questions, shall we?

I have a question for you, Marina, from James, who has not given us a surname.

He will be formerly fitted with one by you.

I have a question from James Lexington here.

Let's say he's from Nampwich.

Thank you, James.

James says, back in the 80s and 90s, it seemed like most big Hollywood movies had a song to go with them.

Who can forget such classics as Bat Dance by Prince, Adam's Family Grew by MC Hammer, and Everything I Do by Brian Adams.

Unfortunately, not me, says James Lexington.

The trend seems to have declined in recent years, and only James Bond films seem to have their own song is this a sign of change in the media business or just a bit of a lull hello James I think that what you're talking about is what's officially was called a tie-in song because obviously movies have always had um music in them and uh well once they were an oral medium and there were songs in 50s and 60s movies that became sort of successful things like moon river from breakfast at tiffany's or lots of belvis ones like jailhouse rock things like that unchained a melody was uh was from a movie called unchained and that became one of the biggest selling songs of all time and lots of different versions of it.

And the Beatles obviously did their whole sort of, you know, they did help, they did Hard Day's Night, the Yellow Submarine, and then something like The Graduate.

I mean, those amazing Simon and Garfunkel songs, I think there are five or six of them.

Mrs.

Robinson, Sound of Silent, Scarborough Fair, but Mike Nichols was just a huge fan of Simon and Garfunkel and managed to persuade Clive Davis, I think, to let them write a couple for the movie.

And then in the end, they did more.

But you are right that the formal tie-in is started in the 80s with the sort of summer blockbuster, you know, when everything sort of needed to be a blockbuster.

But it went really stratospheric with Ghostbusters with that Ray Parker Jr., went gangbusters with Ghostbusters,

with that Ray Parker Jr.

song.

That one had the benefit, which I think is brilliant, of explaining the film's premise.

The lyrics explain the film's premise, which is quite helpful.

I love that.

Because, you know, well, there was lots of sitcoms, don't forget, in the 80s, where they would explain the whole story um in the theme different different strokes different strokes is a classic one we can't get into we that's another separate question if you want to do theme tunes that explain the whole story we could do that on other

actually they were a significant part of a of promotion um but obviously for something like ghostbusters where it is actually explaining the premise of the film and it's constantly playing on the radio that is amazing for you um but remember this is where mtv really takes off and so you can have videos with footage from the film because they're an official song so they were basically an advert for the film.

And consequently, the studios paid for these things.

And then they did take a share of the profit.

So there are certain things that I don't know you think of something like Eye of the Tiger, which we so closely associate with Rocky, that didn't even.

get appended to a Rocky movie till Rocky 3.

But sometimes it was so dominant that the tagline derived from the song because that moment, that emotional moment where it happened, like say dirty dancing, I've had the time of my life.

The tagline is you'll have the time of your life.

Officer and a gentleman, it will lift you up where you belong.

So they,

yeah.

And but then you get all these other ones.

And the 90s, again, you have these huge songs, some of which are sort of slightly bizarre.

Like one of the trivia questions that my husband often tries to ask me, because you know, you have your occasional, you have a trivia question and you just, there's a sort of synaptic failure.

And no matter how many times you've been told it, you can't quite remember.

Yeah.

And

ask me to see if I can get it.

From what movie it what movie is i don't want to miss a thing by era smith the tie in song oh i don't want to miss a thing i think it's is it armageddon it is but there's no

i mean you i would like to miss almost all of armageddon i suppose if you're if you're destroying an asteroid yes uh then you don't want to miss it no you don't you don't is that is that is is that the loose tie that's the loose tie anyway it was a huge song and there were certain things like um as you mentioned that brian adams song i mean by the way if memory serves, they thought that was rubbish and they stuck it on the end of the movie.

You don't see that at the big romantic climax or whenever it is, like in the way that in something like Pretty Woman, you know, when they're parted, you do hear the rock set, it must have been love playing, and it sort of again, it sort of almost ventriloquizes what's happening on screen.

Um, but you don't see um that Brian Adams song, it played over the titles, I don't think they thought it was any good.

It does have video from the footage from the movie in the video, but it became absolutely massive

and it just stuck on the top of the charts in the UK and in America for a very, very long time.

It does become much less fashionable in the 2000s.

Things like hip-hop were very big, and you weren't going to put that on a movie for some reason.

They were just very, you know, they're very risk-averse.

They do do things like this.

Although Cougio had a huge hit with Gangsta's Paradise from Dangerous Minds, again, another example of

the song being much more enduring than the movie.

Oh my God, I watched that again the other day, by the way.

Culturally, Dangerous Minds is, I don't think it would get greenlit these days.

How did he have time to re-watch Dangerous Minds?

I just wanted to see how much of a cringe it had become in the changing narrative of racial politics.

And I would say that quite a big one is the answer to that.

They'd sort of, they've dropped off, but for reasons, which is that MTV is a nothing now.

I mean, it was such a big part of when I was growing up.

And the idea that you could have this stuff playing all the time, basically an advert for your movie, and that every time it was played on the airwaves, you thought about the movie movie because you maybe knew the video as well, because you knew it was, well, this doesn't happen anymore.

And so it's one of those pieces of what had become marketing that has become cut.

As you say, the whole thing about who gets the Bond song is a big, big deal.

And

it remains part of that specific franchise's marketing.

And this is why you get all the best people to do it.

You get, you know, Adele or Billy Aish or whoever it is, because it still remains this kind of prestige thing.

But for other reasons, you don't mind your music being used, but it's just not there's none of that cultural purchase and there's none of the kind of symbiotic form of marketing for both your music and for the movie that happened that used to happen so that just doesn't exist in the same way anymore jua leapa had a barbie one didn't she well the barbie ones were pretty big yeah it's just not quite but it's not the same as what it used to be because you just don't have that um that mtv angle the mtv with the big video that yeah with will smith and tomato jones in the middle of it yeah that uh remains as as as famous as the movie you know of course ray Ray Parker Jr., who wrote the Ghostbusters theme.

You know who successfully sued him?

Who?

For ripping off his song?

Huey Lewis.

Yes, I did know this.

Yes.

I want a new drug.

He sued.

There was an outer court settlement.

Huey Lewis was never allowed to talk about it.

And then he did talk about it.

And then Ray Parker Jr.

tried to sue him back.

And

that's the 80s for you.

Ray Parker Jr.

versus Huey Lewis.

That was the Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson of the 1980s.

Yeah, it meant almost as much.

It meant everything.

Right, Richard.

Andy Hunt says, I've been wondering how football chants work.

Who writes them?

How are they distributed to other fans on paper, website, or word of mouth?

Like a Samozdat operation.

Also, does anyone have any football or other sports chants under copyright?

This is a question that

occurs to all of us.

I thought rather than us answer it,

you know, Adam Hurry, who does the brilliant football clichés, social media accounts, and the incredible podcasts as well, which if you don't listen to, you must do.

I thought this would be a perfect question for him.

So I asked Adam, and here is his answer.

Hi, Andy, Adam Hurry here.

Very happy to explore this underappreciated cultural process.

Football club message boards have long been littered with tales of honourable but futile attempts to get football chants started about a new cult hero.

But they're often to the tune of a relatively mainstream pop hit from any time in the last 50 years.

But since football fandom is basically predicated on jealousy and one-upmanship, the easiest and most effective way to establish a new chart amongst a fanbase is to steal it from a rival club, which in turn will have been stolen half a dozen times already.

And almost repurpose it with complete lack of shame.

As for the distribution, it has to be completely organic.

It has to be a word-of-mouth success spreading itself through the blocks and rows of a stadium.

If you print out the lyrics and hand them out, don't even think about doing that.

As for copyright issues, no artist is on record for suing a set of football fans for performing a chant based on their work, but at the same time, it does feel like a landmark legal case waiting to happen.

So are football chants carefully workshop from scratch like a proper song, or are they just endlessly re-appropriated and cannibalised between fan bases to the point where nobody really knows what's original anymore?

Turns out, it's a bit of both.

Oh, I love that.

Thank you so much, Adam.

I always think, you know, obviously he's right.

Lots of them are sort of nicked from uh other places and that that i think it was st paoli in germany he did that um you know i love you i love you i love you and then i will follow i'll follow that one which is so weird it's from like a kind of 50s musical that just gets taken up and everyone else tries it i always think the best and i don't know where it came from uh the absolute my favorite creatively my favorite ever football chant not kind of it's a clever pun or anything like that it's just how did they come up with it is the the colo tori yaya tore manchester city chant it's just so extraordinarily unlike anything else and so and works so beautifully uh and there must be someone sitting at home in manchester just going but that was it i was the i literally i did that that was me i was the first person to say it i was the generator i was the original generator of that one do you know which musical you'll never walk alone is from yes it is from carousel yes you know the old jeremy corbyn chant which of course is seven nation army uh and everyone went oh my god this is amazing this is oh jeremy corbyn but it was it it was old Michael van Gerwen.

It was a Michael van Gerwen dance chant.

And before that, it would have been something else.

We said old Bobby Zamora of Fulham.

Oh, that is global, that one.

That's global.

They have it in the US as well.

That's gone everywhere.

There's one, you know, the tune to Rotterdam by the Beautiful South.

You think, how is that happening?

To taking Rotterdam by the Beautiful South and turning that into a chant.

But they do.

Christian for you, Marina, and also a first for the show.

We have our first three-time questioner.

Crikey.

Other people have, listen, they've got to raise their game because this guy's there three, Chris Ship, is back.

And he asks, I'm a big guy.

He gets asked if you play rugby a lot.

And as a primary school teacher, I was a primary school teacher.

That's good.

My mum was a primary school teacher.

God's people.

He says, I could do with some extra money.

My fiancé would like me to apply for Taylor Swift's security team.

There's a lot going on here, isn't there, with Chris Ship.

No wonder you get so many questions answered.

Yeah.

I've immediately got an alarm bell ringing there, but hang on.

Okay.

And he says, what does this entail joining Taylor's rift security team?

What does it take to be a civil epidemic bodyguard at the highest level?

All right.

Well, we'll get on to Taylor in a minute.

And what I hope your fiancé isn't trying to tell you.

But

almost all bodyguards, close protection officers, CPOs or whatever these days have had a career in the military and the police.

It is not enough to simply have...

been an enthusiastic nightclub bouncer or a primary school teacher.

So you would, you probably have to have that.

I don't know.

have you have you been to any primary schools recently

convention and precedent says that you probably will have had a career in one of those things and you've probably left those things because it can be much more lucrative doing this and by the way at the top end i spoke to someone who actually i happen to know who runs something like this and you can get upwards of five thousand pounds a day up upwards but it's if you're looking after big celebrities but um for the i mean for the eras tour for taylor swift she had i think there were 150 CPOs and she had four with her at all time.

Her security costs an absolute fortune.

So I think she spends something like 12 or 13 million dollars a year just on that.

Okay, so there's a lot of money in it.

But Chris, you're not going to see your fiancé very much, is she?

Because you're working all the time.

You're working very difficult shift patterns.

If you're going to be Taylor's bodyguard, you're going to be away for like a year at a time, practically.

But also you have really tough stuff to deal with.

You saw the situation in vienna where she had to cancel three nights of her era's tour when there was a terror attack foiled last weekend lady gaga did a huge um concert in rio and there there was clearly a a a a significant terror threat at that which by the way she says she's found out from media reports i uh saw so doing the job well is harder than it may seem and Another story that is sort of becoming live once more is that awful story about Kim Kardashian when she was in Paris and she was staying in this very, very very expensive place.

Those burglars got in, tied her up, put her in the bar.

She was, all the jewelry was taken.

It was, I mean, it's obviously the most intensely traumatic experience.

And the more that's going to come out more and more,

you know, it's coming out over the course of this week and next week in this court case in France.

Now, the bodyguard there went off to a nightclub with, I think, Courtney and Kendall and she was on her own.

And yeah, they fired their security after that.

But yes, I think that's quite significant.

There is a, there's always a difficulty with a bodyguard between in terms of keeping your principals principals safe and kind of squaring that with their desire to engage with fans or to

be in the public eye.

You might often have to not notice quite a lot of bad things that they do.

You might be accused online of being the father of one of their children.

Again, with one of the Kardashians,

Kylie Jenna, one of, I think they...

people suggested that her bodyguard was a father of her baby.

He isn't.

But these guys often go on and they, quite a few of them now have quite big TikTok careers and a lot of following and they make quite a lot of money just from talking about their work or saying that they can't talk about their work.

But I would say it's a very, very, to do it properly, there is a high turnover normally, by the way, with celebrity bodyguards.

The guy I was speaking to was saying to me, there's a really high turnover because people feel like...

you become comfortable with a principal and then you stop just like Kevin Costner says, you know, he can't get too close to Whitney Houston because then he can't protect her properly.

He was right, wasn't he?

Maybe he was, Richard.

Maybe he he was.

Actually, if you look at Taylor Swift, it's quite unusual.

Her security team does stay with her.

She's pretty loyal to her people in general, Taylor Swift.

But she works phenomenally hard.

She is almost always working.

She has obviously spent the last however many years traveling a lot.

So I think, Chris, your fiancé would not see you very often, but it is.

it could be very, very lucrative, but it is also very dangerous.

It's really constant vigilance, especially now when the threats are so different to what they ever were.

I mean, there's so much much terrorism now and terror threats associated with these kind of soft target cultural events.

So I would say it's a pretty, I'm not sure quite how drawn to the job I would be.

Yeah, unless Chris's fiancé is Taylor Swift and she's saying, oh, I'll see more of you.

Well, that would be, that would certainly be a revelation for our podcast, Richard.

Listen, Chris is going to slide into Taylor's DM.

So I've had three questions on the rest of entertainment.

you know that's going to that's going to impress her i think chris can i say you know glamorous though it sounds and lucrative though it is please continue being a primary school teacher because

it's very, very useful.

I know it's not as lucrative and I know it's just as dangerous, but,

you know,

it feels more powerful in some ways.

In many ways, it does.

Now, on that note, Richard, shall we go to a break?

I'd love to.

This episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment is brought to you by Sky, where you can catch up on brilliant shows, including season one of Pokerface, before season two arrives on the 8th of May.

I think I went on record in series one of this saying it was my favourite television series of the year.

You loved it.

Absolutely.

I loved it so much.

Well, it stars Natasha Leon from Russian Doll and Orange is the new black as Charlie Kale, a sharp-tongued drifter with an instinct for knowing when something or someone doesn't quite add up.

She also has an unfortunate tendency to gravitate towards murder wherever she goes each episode.

It's a standalone investigation.

very much in the spirit of Colombo.

It's like a real homage to Colombo, even with the same graphics and all sorts of things.

It's full of twists, dodgy characters, and strange corners of America.

It already has been been every new episode, she turns it somewhere new, you think, oh, yeah, this is going to be great.

And there's always been huge guest stars on it as well.

This series, they've got Cynthia Aribo is on it, John Mulaney is on it, Katie Holmes, Gianna Luca Esposito.

They're all making appearances this season.

Catch up on season one now before the brand new season of PokerFace premieres on 8th of May, only on Sky.

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana.

Got a car to sell, but no time to waste?

Hop on to Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds.

All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions, and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over.

They even offer same-day pickup in many cities.

Save your time, score some cash, and sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.

Pickup times vary.

Please may apply.

Discover Rouse Club New York, the new fragrance.

by Ralph Lauren.

With black currant, vanilla, and sandalwood, this scent embodies the sensuality and confidence of Usher.

Like the city that never sleeps, this masculine fragrance lasts for 12 hours.

Ralph's Club New York.

Ralph Lauren.

Shop now at Macy's.com.

Welcome back, everybody.

This is something we get a load of questions on is auctions, auctions of movie props, I suppose any form of memorabilia like that.

Obviously, we know that people really want them and then they're kind of high-value items.

So

what rules are established on sets for people not to take them?

Do they have to go through security scanners?

I'm so sorry.

You seem to have Thor's hammer in your pocket and you're going to have to put that back.

No, I was just pleased to see you.

It's interesting because years ago there were no protocols at all.

There's that famous story of someone who went to a fancy dress party dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi and sort of rented the Obi-Wan Kenobi costume from Angels and Bermans in London and discovered it was actually Adak Guinness's real costume.

So, you know,

these things were out on the apron market.

Now they're much more lucrative and people sort of understand, I think, that there's money to be made.

Ronnie O'Sullivan in the snooper tournament last week when he had this queue that just wasn't working for him.

And they're saying, will you throw it away?

He said, no, I'm not going to throw it away because the merchandise people want it.

It's like, okay, everyone understands that everything has a price.

And, you know, the prices you can get for some movie things are extraordinary.

I think the biggest ever price is $28 million for the Ruby slippers from The Wizard of Oz.

So, you know, there's an awful lot of money out there.

There's a few of those pairs, aren't there?

There's maybe three or something, and they've all gone for ridiculous amounts.

And again, because in any movie, but you know, you're going to get through more than one pair of slippers, and you're going to get through more than you know, one version of every prop.

I wanted to talk about it this week, funnily enough, because there's an incredible auction.

It started yesterday, but it's on today as well.

You've just about got a chance to look at it.

So, it's from juliansauctions.com.

That's Julian with an E, and it's it's it's American, really, but uh, it has everything from the very early days of television from things like gun smoke and stuff like that, all the way through to you got ER, you got stuff from mad men, you got stuff from uh the Sopranos.

Can I take you through some of my favorite things, things things, the stuff that I was tempted to bid on.

I mean, some of this stuff is going for crazy money.

Uh, they had um a Lieutenant Colombo name plate, you know, like the desk plate.

Oh my god, you would love that more than anything.

Yeah, $1,500.

So you're like, okay, they had his number plate as well,

was up for grabs.

Okay, you don't drive, but the name plate for the desk, I can't believe you don't want that.

Well, listen, I'd like it.

I'm not going to spend $1,500 on it.

I'd rather, I think,

I can think of people who could use that.

$1,500 more than Julian's auctions.

There's an amazing poster for one of Jessica Fletcher's books.

The book is The Corpse Swam by Midnight.

And it's essentially on the wall of her office and it's all framed up.

And that is currently $600, 13 bids on that so far.

Oh, that's so cool.

Oh, I've got to look at this catalogue.

Oh, it's amazing.

You literally go through and just go, Yeah, I want that.

Ingrid was looking at it yesterday, and she goes, They got Hawkeye scrubs from MASH.

And, you know, they got this.

And she goes, You didn't tell me they had some of Alexis's dresses from Dynasty.

I was like, Of course, I should have led with that.

Of course, I should have led with that.

They got set stuff from Mad Men.

They got these amazing speakers from Mad Men.

The thing that's going for the most at the moment they've got all the furniture from frasier's apartment and they've got that iconic um coffee table you know with with the sort of ball legs yeah and at the moment that's going for sixty thousand dollars oh my god there's two things that are on for a bigger reserve but no bids as of yet one is an entire wonder woman costume you've got the corset which in itself is is a hundred to two hundred thousand dollars you've got the boots which are thirty thousand there's a lot of steel in it though There's a lot of steel.

There's a lot of steel, to be fair, and with the tariffs, actually.

With the tariffs, you're making money on it.

And the headband is $30,000 as well.

The most expensive thing there.

Well, firstly, they've got Norm and Cliffy's bar stools from Cheers.

Right?

Those, those, those.

You've got to have the pair, by the way.

You've got to have the pair.

You've got to buy them in a pair.

Don't break up the set.

They have a reserve of $20,000 each, but they also have the Cheers front door.

The original front door of Cheers Tavern, you know, with the Cheers sign in it.

And that's on for a guide of $125,000.

Oh my God, my dream of a basement bar in my house would be fully perfected if I were able to install that on the entrance to it.

Well, they've even got interestingly, like photos, sports memorabilia photos from the wall of Cheers, which you can bid on.

Honestly, all of these things.

And again, these are taken from prop masters, all sorts of things because people didn't know they were worth any money.

Actors will sometimes take things home with them.

When the BBC closed down, everyone was taking, you you know, the signs from the walls.

So, by and large, if you're on a set and you're

a member of a set, you're allowed to take stuff home unless it is a particularly valuable thing that might be needed for a second series or a second run or a follow-up, in which case the props masters will keep it.

There comes a point there when the prop masters got this store full of things.

10 years later, everyone else has moved on and they still sort of got them and they kind of own them.

So it's a complete mix.

Some sets, they wouldn't even dream of something that's there being particularly valuable.

Some, the prop masters own everything.

Some, the production owns everything.

Some of the actors will take things home.

But at that point, they're sort of available to go to auction.

But this particular site, you'll keep going through.

You know, they've got like a military trunk from MASH.

You know, they've got all they've got some amazing things from so many different shows there.

They've also got, by the way, some of the furniture from the Cosby Show.

And they've had quite a few bids on that.

They've got Roseanne's sofa.

So it's very, very American heavy.

So it's different things for different shows, but certainly after a statute of limitations, I think it is yours to sell.

We once did a pre-titles thing on pointness on the set of the Queen Vic,

and I said very politely, could I take a beer mat?

And they said, of course I could.

So I've got a Queen Vic beer mat at home and I've got a BBC green room sign.

Did you literally just prize it off the walls?

No,

they slid out so they could be easily

easily put innable again.

And yeah, by the time the B was in, there was literally not a thing there.

if he turned up it was it was like England during the war when they took all the signs down to for to foil the Nazis or when they storm a presidential palace when there's been a coup yes exactly and they all they they nick Saddam Hussein's paintings of a horse and things like that it's like house of games you can't no one can ever I've I've got the House of Games decanter is the only one I've got this the only one where you can't really see my face but If a show is ongoing, it's very hard to get any props from it at all because they will keep everything.

But, you know, Fraser's apartment is not going to be used again.

So, whichever prop master owned those things is now quids in.

Marina, a question for you from Ian Jones.

Ian says, it is commonplace for professional reviews of film, TV, theatre, music books to headline a star rating, usually one to five stars.

Is this star rating purely a decision of the reviewer in question, or do they have a list of criteria to apply in order to provide an element of consistency in a publication's reviews?

Oh, Ian, I love the idea that it might be very scientific and based on a complex system.

The history of star ratings is actually quite interesting.

And they started in travel guide books because it was like a really easy way right back at the sort of turn of the 19th century.

And then the Michelin restaurant guide that I think they used to just give it a start, one star if it was like a good restaurant.

And then eventually it evolved into this whole three-star system.

But about 100 years after, they started in sort of travel guides and things like that, but only in one or two literary magazines.

And I thought it was quite interesting that your question said that books are rated like that because actually even now we don't see books really rated with the star system very much.

They did it in a few

right back at the beginning of all this but in the end I think people sort of feel it's somehow sort of unliterary to do that and that there's a sort of certain highbrow bias that just means that slapping some stars on something, their thoughts are too complicated for that to happen.

But around

the same time, you know, like sort of, I don't know, like the 1920s or whenever it was that they that they started doing, a couple of literary magazines were doing this.

the new york daily news they had a film critic called i um irene thura and she started a system in the new york daily news and they said oh we're going to do this they kind of announced it with a bit of fanfare and they had three stars by the way her three stars only meant like it's quite good it's very good or it's excellent so there was no sort of like yeah really nice um but again it it's so it just didn't weirdly take off that much in the us that it was actually in a very high bra uh thing in france in Cahe des Cinéma, which is their sort of very kind of, you know, like all French things to do with film was very highbrow.

But they did it in a very sort of thorough way.

And they used to ask lots and lots of critics for their views.

And then they would sort of make a melange of it.

You see, I'm using a French-derived word.

And they sort of sublimated that into a star system.

And if they really hated your film, the critics in general, you got a bullet.

But then the sight and sound magazine, Roger Ebert, the famous film critic, now he started doing it.

And he had,

he did four stars and there was a sort of thumbs up and a thumbs down and what have you.

And nowadays, we, you know, five stars, they appear, what's interesting is that they appear in the headlines.

The stars appear in the headlines so you can really easily see.

And some critics do empty stars.

You know, that thing that people say on Amazon, like, I wish I could give this product no stars because Amazon, you have to give one star on Amazon.

But I spoke to Peter Bradshaw about this.

He's the film critic in The Guardian.

And he's one of those people who's like reviews I absolutely love.

So I, I, you know, Peter, I'll be be honest with you, there's quite a lot of those films I'm not going to go and see, but I just want to read his review of them.

You know, he's such a sort of weather maker in the industry, actually, if you talk to people.

So that, and that's part of those reasons.

But I spoke to him and I said, how do you feel about stars?

Because, you know, there's a lot of critics who say, again, you know, my views are too complicated and they shouldn't be reduced to stars.

Now, he says, I'm one of those.

quite unusual ones.

I love them.

I'm solely responsible for what I put above my reviews.

And they're based on my sort of personal critical judgment, but as it is expressed in the text beneath, but there isn't some scientific system where you think, oh, it's got to about 60% here.

I'll give it three stars.

He says, in the words of the late, great film theorist V.F.

Perkins, these judgments cannot be objective, but they can and must be rational.

And the reason he really loves them is because he says they make you take a clear position.

There's a lot of sort of broadstreet, very upscale critics who feel that they can sort of obfuscate with their, whatever they write, and it can go on a long time.

And especially with something like a big popcorn movie, where you just sort of attack it for this or that, it forces you to take a position that matches ideally the text below it.

And it makes you actually get off the fence.

It's relatively recent that they've always now appear in the headline.

That's a difference that you'll see it in the headline digitally, and then you'll know immediately.

And there is a big draw.

You know, if I, sorry, if I see Peter's given something one star, then I want to read it as much as if he's given it five stars, then of course I want to read it.

But there's something of a joy.

You want to read it?

i i certainly read films no no i want to read the review richard i certainly don't if he's given one star i'm not going to go and see the film unless it's so cataclysmic that i feel like it's epoch defining cataclysmic and i've got to see the one-star movie by the way i've seen quite a few of the one star ones anyway for various different reasons um i like peter bradshaw sitting at home now going oh this is lovely marina's been so nice about me and then you're going you know if i see a five or a one above it then i'll read the review other than that you know what not for me i will read all of his because as i say i like to go it's a destination read.

It's like, it's like people who write about television and you realize that, you know, like Clive Jones used to write about television when you think, I don't care less whether I've seen the show or not.

I just, I'm enjoying the experience.

And I feel like that about his reviews.

So, but yes, in general, I think some critics can be feel they're too highbrow to have to do it, but now all have to do it.

But we don't see it on books, which remains somewhere where we don't really see it.

But book reviews are not a huge deal, but book ratings are massive.

You know, the Amazon ratings, the Goodread ratings, and things like that are absolutely huge.

And

it's, you know, people are slightly obsessive about them.

And when I say people, I mean me.

But it's fascinating on Amazon because just the way it works, essentially, if you know, you think, gosh, if my book was four out of five,

that would be pretty good.

Most books sort of settle somewhere around 4.2, 4.3.

And if you're above 4.5, this is like

the greatest thing that's ever happened.

It's quite easy to be above 4.5 if you've got like 18 ratings because someone, like some obscure film history book that I might love, which is really good, but not that many people bought it or liked it, but it's very well done.

Can I ask you something about Goodreads and the way they get, you know, that a book that I know hasn't yet come out has got a rating on that?

Sorry, I know we're jumping off here, but do people send those books out to people that they feel are Goodreads posters in order that you get a good rating before the book is even released?

Yeah, they'll send it out on NetGalley, which is which is a way, if you're a voracious reader and you want to get books early, NetGalley will often let a thousand people read.

So, my books in the States, certainly, like there'll be like a thousand people will be able to read it before it comes out.

And they will, you know, provide early feedback.

And it can be incredibly important to some books because that idea of you know, if you get some star ratings behind you, the Amazon algorithm is kinder to you.

So, lots of books will send them out to lots of people and will say to NetGalley reviewers, please read it.

You must review it.

You must must give it a star rating.

And by the way, they never say you must give it a five or a four because

if you look at these things, people are very, very good.

And they'll just say, look, I was sent it for free and I appreciate that.

How do they make you do that?

Can they compel you to do it?

Or they just

that you may not get things in the future?

You may not get things in the future.

Exactly.

Exactly that.

If they feel like you're deliberate, if you're giving everything five out of five, they just, again, they'll be like, this is not working for anybody.

It's a neat thing to get on that net galley thing.

And the people who do it take it very seriously.

and you'll often see the earliest reviews or the longest reviews because they're net gallery people who are used to doing this and who take that star rating very, very seriously.

And then later on, the star ratings, as you say, the early numbers, if J.K.

Ryan brings out a book or if some political figure brings out a book, the early ratings are always so minuscule because they get review bond.

in the first week.

Everyone gives it one star.

And so you'll look.

But then actually, as the weeks go by, you see what people actually think about the book because the moment you've got 40,000 reviews, then those first kind of boring review bonners are absolutely meaningless.

Right.

I think that about wraps us up for today, Richard.

Yes, we have a bonus episode coming up, though, don't we?

In fact, probably a couple of bonus episodes on this subject.

50 Years of Monty Python coming up.

And we wanted to talk a bit about them, but also about the individuals in them.

So how it began.

what it was like and then where it went.

We can sort of tell almost a lot of the story of British television and British show business via the members of Monty Python.

So that's what we're going to attempt to do.

If you want to listen to those, you can sign up and become a member at the RestorsEntertainment.com.

But if you don't want to, we will, as always, see you back with the main show next week.

See you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday.

Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Sky.

I have been catching up on The Last of Us recently, such a gripping watch.

Absolutely right.

The critics are fairly unanimous.

It's dark and intense, brilliantly done, they're all saying, especially on your skyglass with its high-quality screen.

Yeah, even those very low-lit scenes, every flicker, every detail, it really pulls you in.

One minute you'll be stretched out on the sofa, the next you'll be gripping the cushion, and that is not a euphemism.

The picture quality really just brings everything to life from the comfort of your living room.

It feels properly cinematic, like the room fades away away and you're in the thick of it.

Until the clickers show up, then it feels a bit too real.

Well, that's when you reach for the blanket.

The perfect night in.

Couldn't agree more.

So for anyone wanting to upgrade their screen time, head to sky.com and check out SkyTV.

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four-litre jug.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

Oh, come on.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.

Hey, it's Anthony Scaramucci from the Rest is Politics U.S.

If you're looking for something to play next, Caddy K and I just launched a new mini-series about Ronald Reagan.

We're digging into the real Reagan story, the rise, the drama, how his world has been turned upside down in the age of Trump.

We trace his rise from Hollywood to the White House, from his role in ending the Cold War to reviving the economy.

And we also confront those scandals, Iran-Contra, his assassination attempt, and his failure around the AIDS epidemic.

Just search the rest of Politics U.S.

wherever you get your podcast.

Here's a clip from the series.

Ronald Reagan knew how to go big and go bold.

He truly was the great communicator.

Together, we're going to do what has to be done.

He regrounded the GOP and conservative principles.

Free market, small government, and an unshakable faith in American exceptionalism.

Mr.

Gorbachev teared down this wall.

Ronald Reagan shook the country.

People keep looking to government for the answer, and government's the problem.

President Reagan was shot in the chest by a gunman outside the Washington Hotel.

We did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages.

Uncomfortable as it is to admit, the 40th president inadvertently prepared the ground for the 45th.

It's not Reagan's party anymore.

Donald Trump destroyed Ronald Reagan.

I thought he was great, his style, his attitude, but not great, Andre.

Will we be the party of conservatism?

Or will we follow the siren song of populism?

Only one man has the proven experience we need.

Together, we'll make America great again.

Thank you very much.

We hope you enjoyed that clip.

To hear the full series, just search The Rest is Politics US.