Who Are You? (with SZA, Dan Erickson, and We Know Severance)

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Let's get them over with. Hey, Adam.
Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's...
Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.
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I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close. Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.
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Bro, what the fuck is Lumen? Like, is it a cult? Is it a religion? What's the end goal of Lumen in every department? What is the actual end goal? Like, is Mark going to die when he gets completely, like, freed of this? Like, I just, I mean, because if Mark dies, obviously I take Mark's place. And then we move forward to season three.
I think we have the season three. That would be amazing, actually.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

I'm Adam Scott.

And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Today is a very special bonus episode.

We're looking back at all of season two with some incredible guests. Yeah, and first we're going to be joined by our creator, the man who created the world of severance from his mind, Dan Erickson.
And we'll talk all about the season, season two, and answer some of your hotline questions. Just sort of, you know, break down the whole experience.
Just spend some real time. You know, I've missed this brain in a jar that we call Dan Erickson.
He's so much more than a brain in a jar though, isn't he? No, you're right. He is.
But for me, it's just how I like to think of him because it makes him malleable and innocent to just be a brain floating in a jar. You think that brains are malleable and innocent? Every single one of them.
I guess when they're born, they are. Well, when they're disconnected from a body, they are.
Right. I wonder how Dan feels about us calling him Brain in a Jar.
We should ask him, right? Yeah. After we speak with the Brain in a Jar, we're sitting down with the hosts of We Know Severance.
And they might know even more about Severance than we do. Yeah, I'm sure they do, actually.
i feel like we could learn a thing or two and then

we're gonna close out the episode with our severance super fan who we are super fans of the one the only sizza oh my god sizza and she's gonna answer some hotline questions we're gonna get to talk to her about her incredibly important tweets yeah that she sent out to keep us going And her incredibly important music video starring you.

Did I talk about that?

You don't have to keep us going. And her incredibly important music video

starring you. Did I talk about that? You don't have to talk about that.
Oh, we're talking about that.

Also, spoiler warning, we're going to be talking about anything and everything from season two.

So if you're not caught up yet, go do that before you listen to the rest of this.

Yeah. Adam, how are you doing, by the way? How's it going there?

I'm good. I just need to tell you, just inform you real quick that when we're recording this, tomorrow is the beginning of Daylight Savings Time.
I just want to flag it for you. Oh, I know.
I am aware. Oh, you know.
Okay. You're aware.
All right. And somewhere inside of me, I'm hoping it might be the last time that we ever have to skip forward.
Yeah, I don't know. Tonight, we skip, lose an hour of sleep, but it's going to be sunnier, a lot longer for those of us who don't wake up super, super early.
Yeah. I don't understand the debate.
I still don't understand the debate. I know you don't.
I just know you feel strongly about it. Wanted to flag it for you just in case.
But why do you say it as if you're sort of like you're a neutral observer? You don't mean come on i'm indifferent i love time and kind of the the concept of time either way i'm just enjoying the ride you know i'm easygoing cool cool you love time all right well listen do you like darkness i mean sometimes okay because i'm just saying skip forward in your mind to next what, October or whatever? Yeah. It'll come way too quick one day, and you'll be like, oh, wow, it's getting dark early.
And then all of a sudden, one day, it's like, oh, no, it's going to get dark a lot earlier. At like 4.45, it's going to start.
Yeah, exactly. For no reason.
Guess what? I like that. Why? Because it's cool.
You're like a goth guy. Yeah.
October comes around. I am goth till springtime and we spring forward.
Okay, good. Well, at least we've defined now what your stance is, which is your anti-daylight savings time.
Your ADSD. Why is that? Wait a second.
Why is that? You just said you like darkness. But why is that anti-daylight savings time? Because daylight savings time is about saving daylight time.
I think daylight savings time is an umbrella term for the concept of jumping forward or falling back. I don't think it refers to either one or the other.
I think it's just a blanket term, isn't it? Okay, that feels like that's a word salad you just gave me. You gave me one of those word salad.
You know what we need? What? We need a Daylight Savings Time expert on this. I think we need to do a whole episode on Daylight Savings Time.
I think you're right. Okay, that'll come in the near future.
We do have an expert on severance, though. Our buddy Dan Erickson, severance creator, is back on the podcast.
Thank you, Dan, for being here. How are you? Hi, guys.
I am good. It's nice to be back in the recording studio looking at your faces on a screen.
Hey, Dan, just right off the bat. Yes.
First question. Yes.
Here we go. On everybody's mind.
Uh-huh. What do you think of Daylight Savings Time? Well, like Adam, I consider myself a bit of a goth.
goth so you know the added hour of night is definitely uh to my liking thank you i think i'm done with this uh this grouping because i i i don't understand i feel like it's all turned here well ben just threw his headphones off he's walking out of the room time it was like hey yeah daylight savings time right and you were like kind of playing along but now you show you true colors maybe maybe i'm just getting comfortable yeah but dan it's good to know where you stand at least yeah well in my you know brain jar i can't see light anyway uh so it doesn't really matter let's talk about how do you feel about being called the brain in a jar and was it originally your idea i it was my idea. I feel like, I mean, we could go back and play the tape from the first one, but I feel like it was one of you guys who came up with this.
And I don't, look, I don't mind it. I have nothing against the jar industry or the brain industry.
The problem is now people are just disappointed when they meet me to find I have a body, you know, and limbs and a corporeal form. They're like, oh, this is not the image we had of you.
So that's true. That's the only thing.
We should make it abundantly clear. Dan, as a person, has nothing against jars.
I've heard you talk favorably about jars on many occasions. Yeah.
No, they can keep our various pickles fresh and whatever else they do. I do remember it being Adam who came up with the brain in a jar, I think is like a funny quip thing.
I don't know. No, I think so.
I think it was. Okay.
Well, now you're Dan Erickson guy. Who's more than just a brain in a jar.
He's a brain in a body. Famous body.
There you go. Dan Erickson.
Okay. I've now been messaged here that it is on record that I called Dan the big brain.
And then Ben said, they're bringing Dan's brain in, in a jar. Okay.
There you go. Yeah.
Boom. I like the big brain.
I rest my case. The big brain sounds like a sports figure, like the big brain.
So let's go with the big brain. Why don't we go with the big brain? Dan, the big brain Erickson.
It would have been a weird thing for me to like say about myself or like, hey, it's me, big brain. Just call you BB.
It's BB. BB Erickson.
So it's been a week since the finale aired. So how is just kind of generally the overwhelming response to season two how are you feeling how has it been kind of seeing the whole thing unfold yeah it is it's so crazy because i feel like i've been walking around with this secret you know this thing that kind of only we knew about and it was fun to you know imagine how people are going to respond to everything and yeah now it's out there the brain is out of the jar and it's fun to, you know, imagine how people are going to respond to everything.
And yeah, now it's out there. The brain is out of the jar and it's been wild, but I would say more than anything, it's been just a relief because I did spend so many hours just buried in crippling anxiety about whether we were going to be able to match the first season.
And the fact is you never know until it's out there. You never know how people are going to respond to it.
And it was like we've talked about with the first season and the fact is you never know until it's out there you never know how people are going to respond to it and it was like we've talked about with the first season where I think we knew it was special we knew that we were always going to like it but it was always possible that it was just us and with this one I I just wanted to make sure that we were doing right by all the people who had loved the first season and and bringing them something that was just as cool and just as exciting. The fact that overall people seem to be loving it as much as we did, there's a real sigh of relief happening there.
Yeah. I think relief is the main feeling that I have as well.
For so long, it was theoretical in our minds, the idea of it coming out because we were in process for so long. So I think I remember when we were working on whatever, episode three or four, and thinking, oh, this is going to be at least a year and a half until this comes out.
We didn't know how long it would take. So yeah, to actually have it out in the world.
And I've been actually surprised at how deeply the fans of the show have really gotten into the emotional journeys of the characters and how much they identify with the characters and care about the characters. So that's been, for me, really interesting.
And just the week by week of it coming out too, which I think is a very different experience. I don't know how you see that, Dan, but just sort of the difference between being able to binge a show and just watching the show week by week, because every week, every episode has had time for people to really marinate in it.
And some of them, obviously, some people flip out over certain episodes. And it's like that engagement is so strong.

I wonder how people will experience the show who decide to now binge it. Yeah.
I mean, one of my favorite comments that I've seen was somebody who said online, like, this show has made me fall in love with a weekly release schedule again. And the idea of all of us together experiencing this thing in real real time, we're watching it, and we're coming in the next day, and we're talking about it.
And you know, that is something that increasingly feels like it's going away. But you know, I've always loved going back to Game of Thrones.
And even I was thinking the other day, like going back to like Seinfeld, I remember being in middle school, we would come into the cafeteria on Friday because Seinfeld would come out on Thursday. And it was just like, that was the thing everybody was talking about on Fridays.
And I would come in and my friend Neil would be like, dude, they did a whole episode about Kenny Rogers roasters. Like how crazy is that? And, and it's just it, you know, not to be too lofty about it, but it's like, it helps build a culture and build a community to be able to have a common experience like that.
And so if we did anything to contribute in any way to that, you know, bringing that back, and especially for younger people who might not be used to experiencing television that way, that to me is one of the, it just makes me feel really good. Adam, do you have a memory of like coming in to school, like after seeing a show or something? Cause I have, like, I remember very clearly when the Motown 25th anniversary special was on.
Oh, after the moonwalk. Yeah.
And I literally remember in high school coming in and everybody was talking about Michael Jackson doing Billie Jean and the moonwalk. It was a big deal.
I remember Miami Vice being the one because it was on Friday nights and it was elementary school. So it meant whoever's house we were doing a sleepover at, we were going to watch Miami Vice and we would read the little summary and TV guide ahead of the episode.
And on the walk home from school, kind of talk about like what adventures Crockett and Tubbs were going to get into that night. And that being so fun.
Dan, what do you think would, for you, would be like the biggest theme in this season that emerged? Because I know we had like thoughts about and ideas, but in terms of what watching it, what you feel was the main sort of through line that came through. I mean, when we were writing it, we always sort of talked about, for the innies anyway, in season one, the innies were sort of like children.
And that this was more of like an adolescent story where, you know, in season one, it occurred to them that they could be their own people, independent of their outies and that they themselves had value. And then in this season, it was sort of about, okay, like now that that's occurred to me, who am I? Like, if I am not something that exists simply in service of my Audi, then what do I want out of life? What do I want my identity and my life to look like? And even stuff like going to camp and having your first romantic experience, you know, these are things that are, it just felt like a sort of the next step in that eternal question for the show, which is who are you and discovering your identity and the sort of messiness of that.
So yeah, I would say that's the main thing. And then also just like getting your jugular vein punctured by a goat slaughter device.
I think those are the two themes that really tie the season together. That really resonate.
Yeah. I do like the idea of, you know, the innies growing up.
I think the adolescence, the sort of rebellion starting, it feels like in terms of just their consciousness. And then also the relationships.
I think there was a real development of these relationships between Mark and Hallie and Dylan and Irving. And it's interesting because I never worked on a show that has gone multiple seasons.
And just there's a real depth that starts to develop in terms of the history that you can build on. And I think that every scene becomes very important sort of as a history of these characters, the scenes that you see.
And that to me is, you know, I think something that's I've really gotten is how deeply connected these characters are, and then feeling the audience going along with that and developing real stakes in these relationships that have been earned now over the course of two seasons. Right.
Yeah. I mean, I think so much of season one was leading up to that moment where after Dylan tackles Milchick and you have that moment where it's just all of you together and you sort of like literally have his back and are all standing there as kind of a unit.
And to me, this season is about testing that unit, you know, testing the strength of that group. And, you know, we see, of course, in episode four that people start to turn on each other and there start to be tensions.
And it basically leads to the loss of Irving. And that is devastating.
But it also has the effect of emphasizing to the others how important they are to each other. You know, if you lose somebody, then you become more aware of the importance of the people that you still have.
Yeah. And like in adolescence, where teenagers and people who are growing up often come to the realization of is that there's nothing more important than the people in your lives and the feelings that come up when you're developing relationships with people.
So love is really something that really kind of rose to the surface this season and the different forms it takes. I also think the dilemma that we've always faced in the show and sort of the interesting question of the show is the innies versus the outies in terms of the character, right? Who are we siding with as an audience? And hopefully that you're seeing both sides of each person in their stories that you can identify with.
So that especially for Mark, I think, you know, that we've developed the story of his outie and his innie and the question of who is more important in terms of what Mark himself wants. You know, what Mark's Audi, Mark's Innie.
And that's been an interesting balance to try to figure out throughout the course of the second season. Because really, I think the season was heading towards this final conversation that Mark has in episode 210 with himself.
And who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy. And that ending of the season for us was, I think, the relationship between Mark and Helly is so strong, but then the relationship between Mark and Gemma is so strong too.
And I think that was one of the hopes we had this season was that we could sort of create a case for both relationships. Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, let the audience have to struggle also with how they feel about that, as Mark himself has to sort of figure out too. Yeah, for sure.
Hey, should we go to the hotline and see what some of these hotline questions are? That's a good idea. Yeah.
All right. Let's go to the first hotline question.
Hi, Sean F. here.
Christmas is my favorite holiday, and I absolutely love it. So it was very funny to me that Gemma's idea of torture was writing thank you notes for Christmas gifts in this very drab Christmas setting.
That made me curious as to whether or not any of you really hate Christmas or how you feel about it in general. I'd particularly love to know if Dan Erickson likes or doesn't like Christmas and whether or not that's why that particular scene made it into the show.
Thank you and praise gear. It's a very good question, but I do want to say I love Christmas.
I've always loved Christmas. What I hate is having to write thank you notes.
And that is a very specific and petty gripe that I have that I've had since childhood. I feel like I was sort of working through that via the show.
When I was a kid, my parents would always make us write fairly specific thank you notes for each gift that we would get where it was just like, you know, dear grandpa, thank you for the sled. I'm going to use it next time we go to yada yada.

And yeah, I was just always very salty about that as a young kid.

I was like, well, it's not even worth getting the presents if I have to write the stupid

note.

And so, yeah, this was my way of working through that longstanding trauma from my childhood.

But I love Christmas and I hope people don't think that I'm sitting here in my Grinch suit writing the episodes. That's not what it is.
It's about the note. Loves Christmas, hates thank you notes.
Hates gratitude. Okay.
That's good to know. Did you ever get a de-grouter for Christmas? I never did.
Maybe that's why I have issues, because I never got a de-grouter like I always wanted. You also never had Robbie Benson sitting and just watching you write the notes.
Well, you don't know that. Oh, that's true.
Oh, interesting. Okay.
I have to look into that one. All right.
We have time for one more hotline question. Hi, this is Beth J calling from New Hampshire, a state you may or may not know.
Anyway, I was hoping to get more information on the new snacks in the vending machine, specifically cut beans. Could you tell us more about that? Is that a Dan creation? Do you have an example of a cut bean? Anyway, that's all for now.
Thanks. Praise here.
It's a very good question, Dan. It's a really good question.
This is something that I, yeah, I fear people are reading more into than what I necessarily intended. A cut bean is simply a bean that has been cut in any way.
I, you know, I imagine that like it's been cut sort of width wise down the middle to make it slimmer and easier to eat. But look, a bean is a, a bean can be kind of a daunting thing to eat if it is uncut.
You know, sometimes you got to cut the bean and make it more palatable. And what about, what's the one that was my favorite, the charred one you came up with? Wet chard.
Wet chard. I don't know if that, yeah, I don't know if that ended up in the show, but there was one of the ones that we talked about was wet chard, which to me, that's so the most troubling thing is like, how does it stay wet? Like how long have those packages been in the vending machine and have they just been sort of...
I could have sworn wet chard was in the vending machine in the little kitchen area. I think it's in there, yeah.
I don't know if you- If it made it on camera.

Yeah, if it made it on camera,

but it's definitely in there.

I would just say with the cut beans,

there's an obvious reference to severance

in the cut bean because isn't being cut,

isn't that sort of like a term,

like a slang term for being severed?

Yeah.

You're cut.

Yeah.

And you just said like cutting a bean down the middle,

sort of like severing, you know, I'm just saying.

I think that may have just been like a subconscious thing.

I don't think anyone intended that but maybe it just bubbled up maybe that's what they refer to us yeah like on the streets they're just beans over there yeah i'm imagining mark getting like approached by a bunch of like greaser guys and they're like hey cut bean that's right're on our turf. That's for the musical version.
Uh-huh. Coming this fall.
Hey, everybody. Thank you for these messages.
You can call the telephone post box of Lumen Industries severed floor at 2 1 2 8 3 0 3 8 1 6. Dan, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
Thank you guys so much. It's always a pleasure and a joy.
Dan, you're so much more than a brain in a jar. You're a human being in a jar.
I have so many organs, you guys, you don't even know. Yeah.
Stop bragging. Thank you, guys.
All right. It's time for us to take a quick break.
When we come back, Ben and I will have the hosts of the podcast, We Know Severance. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
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Hey, guys. Hey, everybody.
Hello. How's it going? How's it going? Hi.
Oh, my goodness gracious. Oh, my God.
It's really happening. So we're very excited that we get to talk with a few of our favorite podcasters, the host of the We Know Severance podcast, Josh Wiggler, Melissa Woodward, and Amanda Rabinowitz.
Welcome. Thanks for being here, you guys.
Oh my gosh. Thank you for having us on your boutique severance podcast.
I mean, we really needed to give you a boost pretty late in the game. We're thrilled to do it.
Thank you. We tried to do our part.
We appreciate it. First of all, tell us where you guys are in the world and how you started this thing.
What was the impetus and just like what was the beginning of this whole thing so adam we're survivor fans oh we come to this through survivor we know severance podcast which is hosted on rhap which is rob has a podcast which is rob sesternino who calls himself the rob that sucks because he got voted out by by Boston Rob after being really awesome at Survivor on his first season. He is the grand master for whom we podcast on his network.
And so we're all Survivor fans. We all got to know each other that way.
And we wanted to do some kind of a podcast. And to me, as I was watching the first couple of episodes, it made all the sense in the world that the only two people to podcast about this show should be people who understand the neuroscience behind it.
So that's Amanda and that's Melissa. They're the brains behind this operation.
Wow. Okay.
What do you guys do, Amanda and Melissa? I am a clinical neuropsychologist. So this is Amanda.
I'm actually Dr. Amanda is my podcast moniker and my professional moniker.
Yeah, I'm a clinical neuropsychologist. I study traumatic brain injury rehabilitation.
So really, really fascinated by memory and emotion and the neuroscience behind all of those things. So when Josh let us know that severance was going to be our jam, he was right.
It is very, very much our jam. Melissa is also a neuroscientist.
I'll let her introduce herself. Yeah, so I graduated with a PhD in neuroscience.
I'm from Vancouver, Canada, and my research specialized in neuroimaging, so like MRI, brain imaging for people with kind of severe schizophrenia. And so anytime we see pictures of the brain on there or anything related to any of this stuff, Amanda and I get very excited about it because it's been so cool to see that there's clearly been so much thought and effort put into that to make it as accurate as, you know, a sci-fi type show can be.
We're very impressed, which is great. Wow.
Yeah. So we like to say it's Dr.
Amanda, Dr. Melissa, and also Josh on the podcast.
And also Josh. How we tend to introduce ourselves.
Yes. What's your feeling in terms of the real world of the severance procedure, the possibility of something like that actually becoming real? Yeah.
I think we talk so often about how the show does such a good job of taking technology that we have today and just going like a few steps down the road. And so particularly things like the reintegration with that transmagnetic stimulation-like machine.
Amanda and I talked all about brainwaves and kind of the things that it's currently used for, like treating chronic depression and helping people quit smoking. And so I think the

severance chip itself is probably a little bit further down the road in terms of what we can

currently do. But it's very cool that it gets implanted in the part of the brain that's

associated with memory. We talk a lot about the fact that your like emotional memories might be

harder to deal with. And it seems like we're seeing a lot of that exploration on the show just because it's so integrated with other parts of the brain that associate kind of emotion and fear processing.
So it's just very, yeah, I think like the chip itself is maybe not a technology that we have, but so much of this relies on our current understanding of neurology, which is very, very cool. Wow.
And Lumen's use of the chip is obviously they could be doing good or bad with it. Do you think that with technology like this, it could be used for good and possibly even life-saving procedures? Like if there is a traumatic brain injury, schizophrenia, something like that, and you could sort of separate and start anew with a new personality or part of like, do you see it as something that could be a good tool if it were real? It's such a fascinating question.
And this is why like, I love sci fi shows like Severance, because it gets you thinking about the neuro ethics and the implication of what it would mean to have this technology. Because obviously, there are a lot of reasons that we could think that wouldn't it be great? I mean, that was kind of Dan's whole premise.
Like, I hate being at work, right? I want to flip my brain off while I'm at work. There's eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, which is an application to sort of cure heartache.
And the show really starts to play with what might be those unintended consequences or implications of something, even if it is developed for a good ends. And furthermore, like what's to stop anybody else from exploiting that good the way that Lumen Industries does.
So I mean, I think Severance, one of the reasons we geek out about it so hard is because it's sci-fi at its best, like the way Melissa said, kind of pushing our world a little bit more into the future and then really delving into all of the implications of what that would mean. Yeah, I had a neuroethics lecture my first year of grad school in which we basically explored this idea of if you could come up with some sort of memory erasing technology for people with PTSD specifically.
And then there was a lot of pushback amongst my classmates talking about potential, what are the kind of negative implications of that? But there was also this really kind of significant component of some people are really experiencing debilitating PTSD. And so it could also be helpful in some scenarios.
But yeah, as Amanda said, the great thing about a show like this is we get to have these neuroethics conversations before the technology is available, which is the time to have them, not once it's already out there in the world. Right.
But the good news is I think that we can all agree that whoever would have the power to distribute such a thing would be very ethical about it anyway. Absolutely.
We just look around our world today and clearly it would be dealt with quite responsibly. Of course, I think we can trust any big tech CEO with technology like this.
No worries. Oh, yeah, for sure.
I mean, but that is an interesting question. Can you actually suppress a memory? Because I think everything that I've learned over the years through just my own sort of process of having gone to therapy and just, you know, the idea of what people talk about in terms of coming to terms with traumatic experiences and being able to work through in some way that the question of like actually suppressing something, I think we talk about it a lot in the show, this idea can love transcend severance, can emotions, you know, can you do that? Even if the place in your mind where the memory exists was somehow cut off, is it somehow experienced in your body and in your person and who you are? You're totally right about that, Ben.
And it's amazing. In severance, you bring the pain with you down there, Mark.
You feel it there too. And we see this in our world in real life.
After a very severe traumatic brain injury, people can't make new memories for a period of time. It's called post-traumatic amnesia.
And there might be, you know, days or months when they're not forming new memories. But if I go into a room and they have a bad experience with me, the next time they see me, they're not going to like me because that emotional part of your memory that's making that association is still intact, even if your memory for the facts, the declarative memory of the episode is not intact.
So memory is dissociable in that way. And I think that that's a really great thing that's been very accurately portrayed in the show.
That's such an interesting an interesting idea because, I mean, I find that also in everyday life, sometimes you probably know what this is, but I'll go somewhere that I haven't been for a long time into a new environment, and then all of a sudden it'll trigger a memory of something because that memory happened in that environment. Yeah.
Yeah. We talk about set and setting a lot.
And so the people the people that you're with the environment that you're in a lot of this, we often think about it in terms of addictions research, but there's a lot of different impacts that those kinds of factors can have. And certainly in terms of memory, but also in terms of behavior.
Yeah. Or a smell.
Totally. Smell's a big one.
Yeah. So you guys both got PhDs in neuroscience to do this show, right? Yeah.
No, but I went to acting class. And in acting class, I mean, literally, you know, a lot of the work that, like, if you're taught, like, you know, methods, like sense memory that you're taught is about, if you're trying to get in touch with emotions, say, you know, you have to have an emotional scene where you have to cry or something awful happened.
And, you know, you have a memory that might connect with that. You're taught to recreate in your mind the circumstance, the place, the smells, the sounds, the room that you were in when this happened, or the person you were with, and not try to pull on actually like feeling the emotion, but just recreating the setting.
and that can unlock emotion for an actor. I would be curious to know, just like for you, Adam, did that come into play at the start of this season? Because when we launch into season two, we are picking up right on that energy from the end of season one and recreating that scene on the immediate other side of the wake up.
Did you have to tap into that as an actor? Like waking up in the elevator seconds after we left off in season one. Yeah, we tried to find the exact level of where we had left off, certainly.
And then also when we went back to Devin and Rickon's house and picked up right after then. It was kind of the same thing.

And yeah, I was trying to figure out like, what exactly was I thinking about when we shot that three years ago? And can I find that exact same thing for this? And I think the more specific you get with stuff like that, and like what Ben was talking about with music or a particular smell or whatever, it really works.

At least for me, that stuff

really is really strong. stuff like that and like what ben was talking about with music or a particular smell or whatever

it really works at least for me that stuff really is really strong yeah and the actors have to do

that a lot on the show you know especially in the elevator it seems like you know like yeah

all of a sudden like pick up and brit had to do it you know in season two yeah and she was you know

having to kind of go through where heli was the end of episode four and then into the beginning

of episode five where these like last few end of episode four, and then into the

beginning of episode five, where these like last few moments of her consciousness were going all the way back to the end of season one. And when you really think about that, the actors are having to do that in these very sort of unnatural settings a lot of the time.
Yeah. So can I ask you guys, for this season and doing your podcast about the show, like what was the most interesting, the most fun aspect of it for you as you went along? What was it that you really like engaged with in the show this season? I think for me, probably the thing that was the most fun was the sort of this promise that eventually Innie and Audi must collide.
And I think with where we left off in season one, there is this hope that we are going to get to see what life looks like for some of these people once they clock out. You know, we certainly get to see that between Mark Scout and Mark S, but you want to know what Dylan's up to when he's not just in the closet talking to Milchick.
And we got that stuff. And it was always fascinating to learn something a little new about Dylan and Gretchen, for instance.
I think just the character work this season and a really heavy task that you all had narratively of this huge act of rebellion at the end of season one cannot help but be fully examined over the course of season two. Just the fallout of that has to be such a focus.
So the narrative has been very twisty and turning. And I think that that, for me, ultimately is what's keeping me locked in.
Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of stuff.
But I have to say that one thing that's been particularly fun is in the very first episode of season two, Milchak says that Cobell was trying to pursue Mark's innie and outie in what could be termed a throuple.

And we've seen a lot of love geometry happening throughout all of season two with innies and outies and multiple layers of relationships.

So that's been one of these fun things to follow and

like really getting to the heart of the question, like, who are you? Right? Like, is any Dylan and

Audi Dylan the same person? What does that mean to Gretchen and their relationship? All of the

intricate love geometry between Mark and Helena? I mean, it's been really fun to watch that play out.

And I think locking into that question of who are you and understanding that those first words

This is a production of the U first things that Mark ever says to Gemma when they both meet at the blood drive. So as much as we've been examining the science of the show, I think it's been getting more existential.
We're bringing religion into it with fields at the table. And I think that it's just gotten deeper.
And it's so funny you mentioned that emotional memory. And it makes me think of the Chinese restaurant scene.
Did you have to eat all that food? Yeah, it was delicious. It was a huge order.

Yeah.

I mean, I go full.

And so I ate, I don't know, how many pounds of Chinese food did I eat that night?

And it was crazy.

I don't know.

You were voracious, though.

This is a lot of noodles.

This is very carb-heavy. That's right.

And how many eggs at the Egg Bar Social?

A lot of eggs.

A lot of eggs.

Ugh, my nightmare.

Yeah.

But apparently reintegration makes you hungry. That's one of the side effects.
Yeah, your brain needs glucose. It makes sense.
Yep, there you go. Well, we can't thank you guys enough.
I mean, this is just incredible getting to talk to you. Yeah, I'd love to talk to you more sometime about all the sort of the actual reality connections for the show.
Because I do think having people who understand psychology and neuroscience, you know, I remember when we went to, in the first season, we were doing research and we went to visit our consultant at a hospital in New York and just seeing the fluoroscope for the first time. And I remember thinking, oh, this is so crazy and so cool because it's almost like an x-ray, but it's like a live x- right yeah and i remember thinking wow this could look really cool in the show but then it's also like the reality of all this stuff is of course the most important thing but like we're always trying to kind of figure out ways to show stuff that's also visually interesting and that you can distill down enough that the audience can get it within the show.
So that balance is always, you know,

it's always a little bit challenging.

We're always trying to push it as far as we can go,

but hopefully still have it resonate with reality.

You've nailed it in our book, for sure.

Well, thanks.

Well, it's great to talk to you guys.

You as well.

And thanks for all you do.

Thank you so much.

We're so grateful and very, very intrigued about season three.

Cannot wait to see where this whole thing is going next.

Dr. Amanda, Dr.
Melissa, Josh, thank you.

This was a real treat.

All right.

That was great.

I really enjoyed talking to those very smart people.

We have smart fans.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's time for us to take a quick break, but when we come back, we will be talking with SZA. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind-erasing elevator to work every day.
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That's r-h-o-n-e dot com slash severance with code severance at checkout. Hello.
Hey, it's Adam. Hello.
Hi, SZA. Hey, how are you? It's Ben.
I know. Hi, how are you that's so crazy good morning thank you for doing this i adore you so much you brought me so much joy and inspiration my entire fucking life and it's so funny that like you're bringing me so much joy and inspiration in this whole other way with severance and it's like you're so genius and part of me was like damn this is kind of dark but they say the funniest people are like low-key kind of dark and like really masterful at

that so it's like damn your mind is so twisted i just want to know where this came from i have so

many questions for you but i'm gonna shut the fuck up okay well no you can ask questions both of you

oh my god i can't believe what's happening i have to say the collaboration between the two of you

though and the video is incredible like you guys have already made something just terrific together. I literally I just can't thank you enough.
I can't even believe you said yes, because, OK, full transparency, right? They tried to get me to concede to John Cena. And I was like, no, I said I love John Cena.
First off, shout out to fine ass John Cena. And I was like, no.
I said, I love John Cena. First off, shout out to fine ass John Cena.
But I was like, no, I need my band. Like, please.
Yes. I need my band.
And I just can't even believe you said that. And they were like, no, no, no.
Like, it's too far. It's just never gonna happen to that.
And I'm just like, okay, well, I can't see it in any other way. I'm so happy.
I'm so happy that John Cena didn't get this role. You know, it's always between me and Cena.
God damn it. The roles all the time.
Yeah, you guys are always up against each other. You have to kill him, I think, probably.
And by the way, I just have to say congrats on the Super Bowl. That was literally, to me, like my favorite Super Bowl halftime show ever.
I it was incredible on so many levels it was it was amazing was it fun to do was I just wonder about that because it's like the biggest stage in the world really like so many people watching like what's your mindset when you go out and perform like that okay so I was really shook only because it's like it is that it's the biggest stage I'll ever do my career, it's like, I don't really know where I can go from there. So I was just like, I don't know if I'm going to survive.
And my performance was initially like longer with a different song. I was actually relieved that I had less opportunity to harm myself on camera or in public.
And I was like, oh, my God, I just couldn't believe that I was part of it. But I did a lot of meditation and a lot of breath work, which I normally don't do.
But I've learned recently, it's kind of saving my life, like low key meditation and breath work and following that road. It's the only thing that keeps me calm.
This one lady bali read my palm recently and i never had my palm read before and she was like if you don't get your emotions under control you're gonna go to jail and they're gonna get justice and i was like oh my god oh shit i believed her i believed her right and i just don't want that for myself so that really like kind of triggered me to dive into yoga head first and now i'm just like nah right and i'm a calm person yeah yeah so listen tell us what was it about severance that like what's for you the most interesting thing what is it about the show that made you reach out on twitter to me to tell me to get going and get the second season going. Yeah, get me the fuck up.
Because what? Oh, my God. That was a big deal.
That was a big deal when you did that. We were all freaking out.
First off, forgive my tone. No, no, no.
It was awesome. It was great.
I would never say that to you then. But also, literally, okay, so season one, right? I was making SOS.
And, you know, I'm swimming in my head a lot and my engineer and i my engineer is super different right he comes from shangri-la which is like rick rubin studio which they have like their own like ecosystem and ethos of like way of doing things everybody's wearing the same color nobody's talking like it's they're very it's very seventh coded so like my engineer was like oh yeah i'm watching this new show whatever and i'm like we're so different and like i'm just so curious so i start watching it and by like the last three episodes i was calling him at like five in the morning to be like are you fucking kidding like do you see what's happening here i was like yelling at the screen you know i was my tummy was tight and I just had to show it to everyone I knew. I'm like, no, we need to watch this together.
Okay. Come over and we'll sit through it.
And I did it like four or five times with different friends. And it was just so, it was so interesting.
I had never seen anything quite like that before. And it spoke to this weird, like, exploitive nature that not even the external like consumerist like reality has on our being but like our own exploitive nature and our search for convenience and like apparent laziness and or the fact that we don't even know the full extent of half of the pathways we choose for convenience right and the fact that we don't consider ourselves as like multi-dimensional beings all these different parts of ourselves and it's like think about the observer like the person who's watching the person that's thinking and then it's like who's watching that person that's watching you think about these things like all those parts of you are.
Is there any, what part of your fragmented consciousness is that? What does it mean in terms of your general well-being? Like if Mark is fucked up constantly as his innie, did his alley finally just realize that on his own? Had he not run into anybody, would he have just eventually felt like, I don't know, I feel empty? Or how everybody at home in their regular lives was a little bit empty, emptier. But it's also like, what is that? Is it because they're severed or were they already empty, which is why they agreed to get severed in the first place? I just love that fucking show so much.
I really do. I just love it.
That's amazing. Yeah, I totally agree with you, though.
The idea of the observer of the observer, what is our consciousness? And I thought about that a lot when we were making the first season. The question of, well, if Mark's Audi is going there because he doesn't want to experience the pain, but who is he really? Because when he becomes his innie, he's still Mark.
So Mark isn't going to experience that pain on the inside, but his Audi is still existing in the world, but not, it's just like the question of like, who really is Mark? Is Mark his innie or his outie? And you articulated it really well, that idea of the observer of like, when we're going through life, but yet there's somebody outside going like okay well but what is all this you know i feel that way sometimes and you're right there's like very deep questions that the concept brings up and then it's like you keep introducing us to deeper levels and layouts of lumen it's like bro what the fuck is lumen like is it a cult is a religion is what are you at? What's the end goal of Lumen in every department? What is the actual end goal? Like, is Mark going to die when he gets completely like freed of this? Like, I just, I mean, because if Mark dies, obviously I take Mark's place. And then we move forward to season three.
I think we have a season three. That would be amazing, actually.
Hey, Siza, I want to ask you about, you mentioned Shangri-La and how it's like severance coded and it's sort of this neutral environment. So you're in there and you're only focusing on the creative in front of you, just focusing on the music.
And does that work for you? Did that help? What was that like? When I was at Shangri-La in Malibu, I think the whole idea of it being Shangri-La in my brain just like cooked me. So I was like, I can't make anything here.
I'm in the Beatles bus, like the actual Beatles bus. But then when I randomly like locked myself in Rick's bedroom and he like cleared it out of all devoid of all furniture, of all things.
And just like allowed me to stay in there for like two weeks in Kauai, everything came to life. It was weird.
It was like there's something about the absence of items and anything that forces your brain to flood with all these things. I actually find the same concept to be true at the ashram.
I just did a vow of silence in India. No eye contact, no mirrors, no gestures of any kind.
And it was very like you were finding out who your any was and finding out like all the aspects of, but only from stripping everything did all this stuff come to the surface. And I think it speaks to how much we distract ourselves with anything because we welcome that because it's actually a bit too much existence is actually a bit too much if we keep it plain and simple especially the acceptance that it's all chaotic and unfair and inherently dangerous and like not this predestined faded safe space where like if we try really hard everything will turn out the way we we like it or we need it to it's really just this place where it's like no you're gonna constantly be finding meaning for awful things that seem awful or that unfold in ways that you're powerless over for the rest of your life and understanding the

beauty and the flow the ebb and flow i guess and accepting that and like becoming part of that versus like someone that's having control or fake control or under the belief the farce that you have control at all or making your world smaller by minimizing it or doing things like trying to seven yourself. I think severance really speaks to so many aspects of my life right now and what I'm exploring and what I'm learning.
Even my home, I just started putting shit on my walls and color on my floor. After five years of living in this house, it was just all white forever.
And I just started, I don't know, I came back from India and I was like, color, realization, realization life and it's just so crazy how like even that but it took me to accept all this turmoil inside to allow something to be like manifested on the outside or to have disarray or any sort of expression that was impermanent on the outside because i was so scared of impermanence. I didn't want to produce anything that reflected my personality or my essence or art.
And I feel like that fear is so crippling to all of us in different areas of our life. And is that why you're saying once you were in that room and everything was stripped away, that's when SOS, it kind of sprouted to life is when absolutely everything was stripped away yes literally it was nothing but just a wooden chair and a wooden room and a single computer it was nuts wow well it's an unbelievable album it's beautiful thank you so much yeah it is and have you always had that inclination to do things like that to push yourself to disconnect and look inward do those things? Because a lot of people never do that.
You know, I've never gone to an ashram in India, you know, and taken a vow of silence or done things like, is it motivated by your creativity? Has it always been the way you are in terms of wanting to go inside and to really explore that stuff? Well, I think all people have their opportunity to go within, right? The universe creates it for all of us, whether it's a tragedy that forces you to look inward, whether it's a personal inequity that you are grappling with that makes you sit still or break up, or even sometimes when shit is going super well for some people, it's freaky and they have to sit and like account for their existence and like all these other things but for me I think yeah I think I was curious my curiosity is so strong it actually combats my fear like it over it overvides my fear all the time and I have a lot of fear like I'm actually it's so interesting I've never met anyone as fearful and as brave as myself and it's so weird

because fear like I'm actually it's so interesting I've never met anyone as fearful and as brave as myself and it's so weird because I'm so terrified of everything like India was the farthest I've ever been from my home and then it's like I turn in my phone I don't know anybody I'm around thousands of people I'm not going to be looking at anyone that no gestures no I can get kicked out at any moment if anyone catches me making a gesture. If I fall ill, you can't communicate with anyone.
And you have to just handle that yourself. And my immune system is so American and fucking obliterated.
So I'm like, oh, my God, I'm never going to live. I'm never going to survive.
So I'm just like, that's incredible. But I had the best time.
Amazing. Good for you.
I mean, that's incredible. I mean, and I agree the dichotomy of being fearful and brave is kind of, I think, a lot of what creativity is about, too.
Right. In terms of like just taking chances and really, I mean, otherwise, why are you doing it unless you're trying to learn something about yourself? I want to know what's under there.
It's like, I think so much. I was talking to my therapist and she was like, you know, that like ultimately you're okay.
And I was like, what? I'm actually not okay. And she was like, no, ultimately you're breathing right now.
You're breathing and you're in a safe space and you have autonomy like over yourself. And there's a version of you that nobody can touch.
And like, that is safe within you. you and but when I was like oh and then I was like but who is that person who's that who's that person that nobody can touch and where does her value lie like and I was like oh shit who am I and so that's what really sparked that journey of like oh I don't know who I am or what I'm even protecting like like inside or what do I want what do I like just who am I outside of my outer value to others even if it's like oh I want to do yoga so I can become more likable like that's wrong direction again like the whole point is who are you so that's the deeper question and to find out that like so many things and i think

that the desire to find out strip back more layers and peel back more limitations is like

that's what's pushing me to keep seeking i guess yeah wow that's the severance question right who

are you i know all right listen this has been amazing we have one hotline question that we

want to play for you can we play that question hi ben and adam um i'm lita and i'm a chronic

Thank you. been amazing we have one hotline question that we want to play for you can we play that question hi Ben and Adam I'm Lita and I'm a chronically online Gen Zer so I was wondering naturally what the zodiac signs of the severance cast would be because I'm getting mad Scorpio vibes from Hellie and Helena so it it'd be nice to know their zodiac signs.
Thank you. Are you an astrology person, SZA? I am.
I am. Okay, okay, okay.
It's going to be so, it's actually so easy for me. So Mark is giving Taurus because he's grounded, but he's also curious.
and like his love for his partners actually was driving his curiosity it's not that he wants to uncover some like he's accidentally uncovering some crazy cover-up but it's really in the midst of like where the fuck is gemma and then heli actually is giving scorpio vibes but she's almost too villainous like Scorpio would be like Miss Cobell because she's grappling between, I really just am passionate about this one thing, and I'm a little mentally unstable, but I do have a really serious revenge clause in my being. Helly gives more like Capricorn, where it's like, what must be done must be done, and the are what they are but accidentally got some dick along the way and then you have then you have of course Dylan and Irving Irving is classic like older Virgo like very conservative but like yearns for more highly analytical nothing got past him because he totally realized that something was wrong with Helly and she was on bullshit and was willing to take it to the max.

Dylan is giving water sign down. Like, cancer, but soft, soft.

Like, Pisces, cancer, really wants to know what his children are like.

Oh, my offspring.

Wants to just sit and talk to his wife in private.

Then, let's see.

Oh, fucking Milchek. Milchek reeks of okay he's so anal but also yearns for more he's sagittarius he gets fire he gets sagittarius where it's like milchek will do whatever the fuck and it might surprise you and he's not playing at all but he has his own things that he's grappling with in his own private time and he's deeply analytical and he has his own curiosities about what's happening to him wow well i'm a sagittarius i'm all for milchik as a sagittarius that makes so much sense you'll say anything oh my god please know that i'm about to binge watch like all your movies when i get off the phone because i'm like that.
By the way, congrats on your movie. You're doing it.
Yeah. You're doing it.
Oh, my God. It's amazing.
Thank you. It's so scary.
You guys are crazy to pick that as a profession, huh? It is insane. Right? It is.
It's so crazy. I want to dive more in and just study more and be better, just to kind of become another person.
Yeah. Well, you're amazing as you are.
And we really, really appreciate you. It's great to talk to you.
Thanks for coming on. Have a great year coming up.
I hear you're going to go out and perform and it's going to be really exciting. And we're going to come see you.
And you're just awesome. Yeah.
And just as fans of yours, we're so lucky that you are someone who is searching and asking all of these questions and reinventing yourself with each record you put out. It's all just such interesting, boundary pushing music.
And we're just so lucky to have you on the podcast, but also just as an artist. Thank you, Adam.
I'm such a huge fan of both of you. I just you have no idea.
I just feel like everything you guys is doing is actually like not to be like it's fucking groundbreaking but it kind of is like no bullshit like it's fucking groundbreaking and i feel like the ideas that you're introducing to the mind and to the young mind are important and um are you not gonna tell me what happens to jemma for real is that not the the record of the ball? What the fuck? That's why I came here. Well, you know, just keep watching.
Oh, my God. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much. Thank you, SZA.
Have a blessed day. All right.
You too. Thank you.
All right. That's it for this episode.
This has been the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam. And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV+.
And you can listen to every episode of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.
If you like the show show be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts the Odyssey app or your other podcast platform of choice Our executive producers are Barry Finkel Henry Malofsky Gabrielle Lewis Jenner Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis This show is produced by Zandra Ellen Ben Goldberg and Naomi Scott This episode was mixed and and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.
Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.
Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff. And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Baldurutin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker.
And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter.

I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott. Thanks for listening all season long.
We've loved going on this ride with you. Absolutely.
It's been so fun. We'll see you next time.
All right. Thank you.
next season on the severance podcast that's right you didn't think i would only predict what was going to happen on the next season of severance i'm also going to predict what

will happen on the next season of the severance podcast next season on the severance podcast

i predict ben and adam will come to their senses and stop asking me to do this