S2E6: Attila (with Christopher Walken and Sarah Bock)

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Hey, Adam. Yeah.
Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's, it's...
Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.
Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian. Oh my god, well if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.
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In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. So that would equal out, like if we're playing with like, let's just say a hundred percent, 5.2 of those percentage points.
Yeah. That's the improvement.
I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close. Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak.
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That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. Do you still get as excited about working as you did when you were starting out? You know, in this business, if you do something and it works,

chances are you'll be asked to do something like it again.

And I find that now that I'm old,

when I thought I was going to get grandpa parts,

you know, and kids coming to you saying,

Grandpa, what should we do?

And I say, you know, just always do the right thing.

You know, always that kind of part.

But I'm still being asked to play vampires and those guys. Vampire, grandpa.
Grandpa, vampire. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.
I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every single episode of Severance.
Today, we're talking about the sixth episode of season two, Attila, written by Aaron Wagoner and directed by Uta Breshowitz. And we have a really special guest this episode.
We're joined by the legendary Chris Walken, who plays Bert Goodman. Oh, my God.
Yeah. Really excited for that.
I got a chance to talk to him and it was, I have to say a highlight, a highlight of my young career. I bet.
Your nascent show business career. I bet it was.
What an honor to have him on the show. Good Lord.
It was incredible. After that, Ben and I will unpack the rest of episode six and we'll also hear from Sarah Bach, who plays Miss Wong, to check in on how things are going on the severed floor.
Who has a real nascent career. She sure does.
An actual one. And an actual future in show business because she's amazing.
And of course, we got Zach Cherry back to predict. So far, he's 0% right.
Anything that he's predicted.

Yeah, but in a way, he's been on target,

if you know what I mean.

No.

Like, if you think about it in a certain way,

he's 100% right.

About what?

Whatever, man.

I guess you don't get it.

Okay, here is your spoiler warning.

We are talking about everything from episode six of season two. So go watch it before you listen to this podcast.
Yes, don't worry. The podcast will still be here.
We promise. Adam? Yeah.
Everything all right? How's things going with you, by the way? Everything's good. You know what I just realized is we are at the halfway point of season two.
Right. Yeah.
How weird is that? It's weird and it's been fun. I've enjoyed it very much.
It's been interesting. You know, these episodes are much more firmly in my frontal cortex or whatever part of my brain that would remember things.
Yes. So it's kind of like dipping into the more recent past and- Yeah, much different experience than going through season one, that's for sure.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But it was great to just now talk to Chris Walken.
I actually just came from Chris Walken's house. I'm so jealous.
You got to actually go talk to him at his house and talk about this particular episode and his character and stuff? Yeah, we got to talk a little bit about the episode and about how he got involved with severance and also about acting i got to like really nerd out a little bit that's great i'm happy that i finally after knowing chris probably for like 35 years in terms of when i first met him but never really being like you know like i could never say like hey i'm friends with chris walk By this point, having worked together a few times, it was great to be able to kind of feel comfortable enough to ask him some nerdy movie questions about acting. Because I really, you know, I never say this in front of him because he's just way too humble.
But, you know, I think he's one of our best actors ever. 100%.
One thing I'll tell you that he told me, and we didn't get this on tape in the interview, it was like right after we put the microphones away, we were talking still about acting and how sometimes nobody knows what you're thinking as an actor, right? But they just see you thinking and that thought is what reads and the audience kind of fills it in and makes it feel real because they're actually thinking about something. He said that Bugs Bunny is one of his favorite actors ever.
And he was saying this kind of with a twinkle in his eye, but not really. And he said, a lot of times I've played roles as if I was Bugs Bunny.
But nobody knew. Now, which character, which movie, we don't know.
That is so Christopher Walken. And he means it.
He means it. Yeah, that's why it's so Christopher Walken.
He's not like messing around. And the result of that is a fascinating performance, I'm sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great.
But I started off with your question, Adam, about the hair. I said like, Adam thinks you have awesome hair.
And he was like, yeah, hair is important.

So cool. Well, let's get to it.
Let's listen to it. I'm excited.

Adam Scott wanted me to ask you about, he thinks your hair is awesome.

And I think Adam has amazing hair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How important is hair for you, acting-wise?

Curiously, it's important.

And I have no idea why.

It is, right?

Yeah.

I remember when I was in high school, there was a girl I was crazy about. I wanted to take her to the prom.
It took me weeks to think about it. And I said to her, finally, you know, I said, would you go to the prom? And she said, I would go with you, except I've got this boyfriend.
He's an older guy and he's very jealous this is

i was 15 so it was like mid-50s and she took out her wallet you know these girls had they had these big wallets with all these pictures in them she flipped and she showed me this guy who was so unbelievably good looking Zula and the good looking

and good-looking. Zula and the good-looking.

And I said, that's not a picture of your boyfriend.

You cut that out of a magazine.

It was obvious.

I said, yeah, it's this guy.

He's a singer.

I'm crazy.

But anyway, it was Elvis.

What?

Oh, my God.

And so I went and I bought a shirt with a big collar. I combed my hair into a pompadour and I took her to the dance.
So I think that's where the hair thing might've started. Wow.
Wow. And then ever since you've kind of, cause I remember like even when we first started working on the show, you were very specific about your hair and and I totally identified with it because I get crazy about my hair, too.
It's a thing. Right? Yeah, like you want to feel comfortable, right? And I remember you were like, just let it be what it is.
Also, your hair gives you a silhouette. Sometimes, you know, you see your shadow.
The hair is a big deal. But why that is, I don't know.
It's a mystery. Yeah, yeah.
So I love that you're on the show and that you play Bert. I had dinner with Turturro, and he said, I thought it would be great if Chris could be Bert when I first met him.
Well, that must be how it started. Because in a situation like Bert and Irving, you need something between the actors.
Actors, of course, generate their own energy. But when you put them together, sometimes something else happens.
And I had known John for a long time. I'd been in, I think, three of his movies.
He directed you, right? Yeah. And it was sort of like people, like your mom and dad.
It's like they find each other funny and interesting and enjoy each other's company, you know, all that stuff that make a relationship. And I feel that way about John.
And, you know, even if he gets annoyed at me, I know he feels that way about me. I think he loves you.
I mean, I feel like. No, we do.
We're kind of brothers. Yeah.
And I think when you point the camera at that, the camera sees it. Yeah.
And so much of the Burt and Irving relationship in the first season of the show is about sort of that connection that's kind of between the words and that's going on the subtext of just the energy between you two. Yeah.
It's that thing that you can see with people. You know, sometimes I meet a guy and maybe I don't even like him.
And then his wife walks in and I can see that she thinks he's funny and terrific and she's crazy about him. And I have to rethink it.
I think, well, if she feels that way, he must be okay. And i think people do that with each other they reinforce and right and that's interesting yeah they give each other confidence and they reflect that you know if you if you're looking at it you can see it you know you can look at a at a good marriage you know you can look at a friendship you know you just see it yeah it's interesting to me about acting too that you talk about like having confidence but so much of it is also i think about vulnerability too daring to be vulnerable yeah daring to be vulnerable yeah to take be able to take that chance and know that you know they've i think of acting sometimes as being like the circus thing the trapezeze where you flip off the thing.
The other guy's going to be there to catch you. Right.
You're looking after each other, yeah. Right.
And I remember the first day that we worked on the show, it was sort of the first scene between you and Irving, you and Turturro. And I remember being very nervous.
Even though I'd known you over the years, I'd never worked with you as a director, been a fan for a long time. But for me, my generation growing up watching you in the movies was really very much informed my desire to want to be in movies, watching the kind of stuff you were doing.
So I was a little intimidated. I'm curious, when you're working with a director, what are you looking for? Well, you know, there are certain directors where you know that you're going to be seen at your best.
I remember when I was about to make a movie with Steven Spielberg, I was at the Chateau Marmont, and I was waiting for the elevator, and a great actor, I won't say who it is, but a great actor was standing there who had worked with steven spielberg and he said what are you up to actors always say to each other you know what are you busy doing something and i said yes i'm about to work with your friend steven spielberg and he said ah you're in very good hands and that was absolutely true. I didn't know Spielberg, but when I was done shooting it, I thought, yeah, that's a perfect description.
You know, you get the feeling that you're in very good hands. He looked after you.
In a way, does that free you up as an actor? Absolutely. You feel you can, you know, if it's not right, you'll do another take.
You'll tone it down. You'll do this.
You'll do that. If you're very upset and sad, it might be light and funny.
Mike Nichols used to talk about naming things. He would say, what are we talking about in the scene? What's the scene about? What are we talking about, really? people talk all the time about this and that but underneath it there's something going on and he talked about that and then he'd say okay let's take that and flip it so if like you and i are in a scene and i'm mad at you or like let's flip it around so you're crazy about me suddenly right but i'm I'm still playing the same words in the same text, but it's having a different intention underneath it.
And it led me to the idea that, you know, the audience doesn't have to know what I'm talking about, just so long as they know that I know what I'm talking about. And it's like life.
You know, I've met people, they talk, I don't know what they're talking about but i know that they're absolutely solid you know right right and you can trust and you can trust yeah that they're that they know what they're talking about and as an actor that's like a that's what you want right because most of the time you know you're playing a part you're playing a doctor or a lawyer or something that you're not but you want people to believe that you are How do you get yourself to believe that? Because I remember you telling me when we first met a little bit about your process, about how you look at a script and prepare to really live in it. You know, it makes me think about severance.
You know, how severance would apply to an actor. Because what I do at work has mostly to do with what i do in my kitchen in what i stand for as much time as i have in my kitchen at this counter with the script and i go over it and over it and over it and you see one day you're reading it sort of mumbling it to yourself and something sounds sounds right.
It sounds like, you know, if I was talking to somebody, I would believe them. So you hear it, you say it out loud.
You hear it. And you hear it.
And then suddenly it sounds like you're telling the truth. And that's it.
That's what I'm looking for. But I did that in my kitchen.
And then I try to bring it, you know, to the set. How does it translate? Like, do you always, do you get there and you go, oh, I did this better in my kitchen and then i try to bring it you know to the set how does it translate like do you always do you get there and go oh i did this better in my kitchen or do you no it you found out what you're talking about right your name you've named it you found it in the kitchen and so you can take it yeah you know what it is and then i found watching you work when we do scenes every take is a little different sure and And that's another thing to do with severance.
It's that thing with actors. You know, I've been in the business for such a long time, and there are actors who I've seen in dozens of movies.
And I think I know them a little bit. And then suddenly you've got a job, and you're working with them, and you meet them, and you're on the set with them every day, and it's that same person that you know from all the movies that you saw.
But there's a little difference. You know, they're a little bit this or that, or they're a little funnier than you thought they were.
They're a little more serious. They're a little more, you know.
And it's the same, except it's a little bit different. And I think of that with Severance, too.
Definitely. You know, the guy goes to work, and then he goes home.
He's the same guy, but he's a little bit, you know. That's what's interesting, I think, about the show for actors, is that Adam is playing Audi and Eni.
John is playing his Audi and Eni. But they're the same person, but they're different aspects of themselves.
Yeah. And the question of how much bleeds through, what are the commonalities between the Innie and the Audi, I think is really kind of fun for actors to explore.
Yeah. And it's the difference between the guy at home and the guy at work.

Right. Do you feel as playing Bert as an actor, playing these parts? Because we were talking about like what, you know, you're just an actor, right? But you haven't lived these experiences that you're portraying most of the time.
Do you think that's valuable for people? I think it's really valuable for people, even if it's, you know, these ridiculous ridiculous actors trying to be serious and it's so easy to make fun of actors right right but i was telling you that like in deer hunter you did this amazing work like do you can you take that in and go okay yeah i was able to help people experience something even though i didn't experience it yeah it it depends on you they say about certain actors, but he's always in character. I suppose I never felt that I was that way.
I, you know, I kind of come home and I leave it at the set and I come back the next day. I remember I played a part once.
I played all these disturbed and disturbing people and I was playing this one guy and I this guy was particularly twisted. And I was sitting in my dressing room in front of the makeup mirror.
And I looked up and I saw myself. And I immediately looked away.
Like a reflex. I didn't want to make eye contact with this guy.
And I didn't want to deal with him. I didn't want to be around him.

And so I suppose it can get into your pores.

Actors talk about playing bad characters

or evil characters and finding a way

to empathize with them or find their humanity.

Do you look at it that way?

Yeah, usually I just, I don't take it seriously.

But like when doing a movie like De how do you how did you approach that well the deer hunter was different it was the beginning for me it's one of the first and there i had this big beautiful part and i was in this wonderful different locations and with these actors you know i was like it was heaven i knew that whatever it was that was happening was going to make a big difference in my life. You know how sometimes, you know, like when you meet your wife or something like that, you know that something's going on.
And I remember walking down the street in Bangkok. We were in the middle of shooting, and the rain started to come down like a wall you know rain there is different from other places and it's hot it's hot rain and i remember thinking this is just great you know i'm in this thing that's so amazing you could appreciate that yeah you could feel it yeah the scene for me that i was telling you about earlier is the scene where you're you know in the hospital after and just this moment there's no dialogue and it's a very you know where you just you feel it all i'm just curious because that moment to me is like one of the those moments for me in movies like how did how did you approach a scene like that it was exactly to me like when i was really don't know, eight years old, I used to go to summer camp.
And it was only a couple of hours away in the Poconos or something. But I felt like I'd been sent to Mars, you know, and that I was

never getting back. And I didn't like anybody I was with.
And it was just a nightmare. And I

remember clearly that all that came back to me, you know, sitting there on the balcony and

Thank you. And it was just a nightmare.
And I remember clearly that all that came back to me, you know, sitting there on the balcony in Bangkok. It was just like I was eight years old and I couldn't get home.
Wow. It's amazing to me because I remember going to camp, being homesick, my dad coming up because I was so home and never feeling anything like that like i was just so alone oh absolutely i was like yeah i was up in may my parents sent me up there and that's amazing to me because that that feeling yeah summer camp all over again it's the pain of that yeah why why do people send their kids to summer camp so that we can have great performances in movies.
Yeah, so you can learn.

Okay, we're going to take a short break, but I'll be back with Christopher Walken to talk about the dinner scene with Burt Irving and Fields right after this. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home.

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to explore our full range of easy-to-use machines and coffees not found anywhere else. Bert in the show is like a sweet guy.
And you were saying like you like to play guys like that, right? Yeah. And it's also that, you know, what's that who said that thing that most men live lives of quiet desperation.
When I was a kid, I knew this guy, and he had a printing shop. He made menus and business cards and all that.
But what he did in his spare time, and if you went to this little cramped apartment that he had, he built sets out of cardboard and painted them of Gilbert and Sullivan Productions. He was fanatical about it, and he went to, he was always at the matinee of this or that.
And I thought, you know, here's a guy who's single. He doesn't have any kids or anybody to take care of but himself.
And I thought, why are you in this printing shop? Why aren't you, you know, involved Why aren't you doing Gilbert and Sullivan? Why aren't you building sets, doing the thing you love? I feel about Bert a little bit that way. He's got these interests.
Appreciation of art. Art and paintings and all that.
And he's working this tedious existence when he's got this, you know, he really wants to do something else. Yeah.
And I guess that's what the connection with Irving is, right? We find somebody who's a common. Yeah, a kindred spirit.
Yeah. So anybody who's severed on the show, any character has the outie and the innie.
you got to in season two we're talking about episode six in this episode of the podcast which is the dinner the dinner with fields yeah and so like in that dinner scene you and john are kind of meeting you've come to see him because he came knocking at your door and you know that he his any new year any but then you invite him to dinner at your house with your husband and there's an energy that's there between you and him that is not burton irving on the inside but there's something there yeah there's also the element of you say to your wife hello I'd like you to meet my girlfriend.

Exactly.

Let's have dinner.

Right.

You know, maybe not a good idea.

Fields is tending the hat.

I hope you like a cumin glaze.

Oh, yes, of course.

Do you not?

No, I do.

Attila?

Yes, Attila.

Did you just ask about the glaze?

I did.

Well, don't.

We've already put it on.

I was going to say, we also have corn.

Oh, yes.

We could feed him a pile of loose corn.

What your innie ever saw in this Philistine is beyond me. Fields, I presume.
Yes. Irving.
Irving. Yes.
Welcome back to our home. Yes, I'm sorry about the last time.
I'm sure that felt quite invasive. Nonsense.
What's mine's yours. And you've brought wine.
What's so interesting to me in this scene is that the relationship between you and Fields is obviously complicated. And he's, you can tell he's jealous that you guys have a thing on the inside yeah well i i introduced my boyfriend to my husband right this is a dangerous right and it's interesting it's like what's the motivation there right why are you doing that in your relationship with your husband there's obviously some stuff going on you don't you don't want him to drink as much we see that he like right he hits the wine a little bit too much yeah it was fascinating because what it shows me is that even you know there's still a connection no matter what between these guys even if you don't know what was happening on the inside between you and john and that's you know to me kind of the core of the show is this exploration of the two sides of ourselves and integrating those you know what what what do we need from each side of ourselves if can you separate yourself from your emotions you know can you separate from your ex your past experiences you know i um talked to a a veteran who saw the show and really connected with the show because he had experienced PTSD.
And he was really fascinated with the idea of severing from memories and how that could possibly help people who have PTSD. Oh, sure.
If we could just move past things sometimes. You know, the stuff that we carry around and stuff that happens to us when we were kids that got in our way, you know, stuff that we carry.
It would be nice to have that ability to just throw it out the window. Yeah.
And move on. Yeah.
You know, do you need to face that stuff and process it or can you just cut it off and not deal with that's what religions try to do you know you go to confession you get it off your chest you start a new day yeah when when fields brings up the religion and the dinner and he says that basically you got severed so that they could have a chance at saving your soul, right? Yeah.

The sermon that day is about severance, which was still very new at the time. And the pastor says...
As if he'd been listening to our conversation. He said, the church's stance is that innies are complete individuals with souls that can be judged separately from their arty.
So an inni can go to heaven, whilst the arty burns. We're not salats, I swear.

But we figured that if it were true, it may be a way for part of Bert to... Oh, you know.
You basically got severed because you went to hear the pastor speaking about severance. And what we get the idea is that Bert has done some things on the outside that perhaps were not on the up and up, the darker side of his personality, and that this severed side of Bert could possibly go to heaven.
Yeah. And to be able to start over again is marvelous.
Yeah. And to forgive yourself.
Yeah. That's my dad always used to like Yom kippur in the jewish religion because you go there and you atone for your sins and you yeah start fresh you know you did things that didn't always work out but then now it's a new day you move on and uh that that would be terrific yeah to be able to you know every day is.
Yeah. But the reality also for people with these traumatic memories or experiences.
How can you? How can you? You know, some people have stuff that they can't forget. Yeah.
And that's torture. Are you religious at all? I'm not religious, but I do.
I am afraid of God. And maybe Bert is too.
Wow. All right, man.
This is great. Thank you for doing this.
No, no, it's fine. Yeah, it's great.
Wow. I mean, before we get into recapping the rest of the episode i just have to say that was amazing yeah it was so cool to be able to talk to chris i i love him so much and i've been such a fan for so long so it was it was really great to talk to him unbelievable well well done ben um all right so we have heard what's going on with Burt Nerving this episode.
Let's talk about what everyone else is up to. We should start with Dylan's Innie and Gretchen, who are back together in the visitation suite.
That's right. I sometimes wonder if you're just not happy.
I'm sure it's not that Cause like

You know I mean

Here

With you happy. I'm sure it's not that.
Because like, you know, I mean, here, with you, I'm super happy.

I just like, want to hear about all my offspring and stare at your face.

Sorry, that was weird. No, it was really sweet.
I like it. I like this.
I wish we could really be together. Like, all the time.
I mean, we are. Aren't we? You and him are.
But I'm not. Wow.
The seagulls in the distance fluttering around and music. It's really scary, isn't it? It is.
Where did the idea for the seagull sound come from? The seagull sound came from the backdrop that we had painted that's behind them. It's sort of like a Museum of Natural History painted diorama vibe with fake grass, like tall grass.
And in the background, you see there's a seagull uh so we thought why not you know lumen would be going for the full experience sure it's such a relaxing soothing sound i i get it yeah it's the old security room they totally just yeah they just gave it a facelift you know i think that's one of the really more fun ominous weird things in in season two is that sort of the revamping of the old scary rooms into nice, warm, happy places, supposedly. Yeah.
It's just so great seeing Dylan so happy and talking about his feelings and experiencing them, experiencing love for the first time. But also Merit is so wonderful.
and like when they go in for the hug, he wants to ask for a hug. And you see her kind of take this moment right before their hug where she's going through her own experience of this is so weird, but so sweet.
And getting to sort of start over with her husband and still having these feelings. There's so much going on here.
It's just kind of fascinating to watch. Yeah, well, the whole episode is very much about the relationships, the relationship between Gretchen and Dylan, Mark and Helly, Bert and Irving.
I think if there was a theme for this episode, it would be people connecting. I'm not going to say hooking up but there is you know there's a lot of romanticness happening in this episode yeah and i think it was actually really fun to have an episode like that where it really focused on these core relationships and the dylan and gretchen storyline is just such a uniquely severance type of story because you you can't do that really in any other show.
And I think that's when we're looking at the story. We're always looking at what are situations that you could only do with this setup.
And I think the idea of Dylan and Gretchen having basically kind of an affair on his Audi. I was going to ask, is it an affair? Is that what this is? To me, that's what it feels like.
It's almost like she's going to visit a guy in prison and she's having conjugal visits or something with this guy. I mean, they're not sleeping together, but it's sort of this, I mean, it is very prison-like.
I mean, even in episode know, when she first comes in, she's got like the little clear plastic pouch that they give her, which is a thing they do in prison so that, you know, they can see through what you're bringing in and out. And I think that's what I think is so interesting about this storyline is that it seems like they're really developing a bond.
And then we immediately go afterwards to Audi Dylan at home and she's not telling him what's going on. Yeah.
And she's wrestling with it, you know. She's keeping it from him.
But she's really attracted to this version of Dylan that is the less, you know, he doesn't have the weight of the world on him. He doesn't have all the outside problems that are definitely affecting their relationship.
Yeah. And the most important thing in the world to him is her.
He is just smitten and is completely in love with her. You know, you can see in Merritt's performance just how good that feels.
And there's just so much going on there. Yeah, and for Dylan, it's great because Dylan is finally realizing there's a world beyond perks and there's a world beyond finger traps and caricatures.
And it's really the extension of what was started at the end of season one when he says, I want to know my kids. Yeah.
And this is him getting, you know, really in a manipulative way by Milchik, who has decided to let him have this as a way of, I think, somehow dividing him from the others, keeping this secret. And that's working, too, by the way, which we saw play out in episode five.
And the tension between Mark and Dylan, and he's not sharing this with them. But personally for him, he's literally falling in love, and he's understanding what a human relationship is.
Yeah. Oh, Dylan's been compromised since episode one.
Milchick really got in there right away and knew that this would work. Yeah.
But yet I'm also kind of happy for Dylan that he's feeling this. And to see Zach sort of embody him growing as a person is really cool.
And then meanwhile, like, meanwhile, you know, Mark and Helly are, you know, working out their stuff. I think Mark's been trying to reconcile how he feels about the fact that he slept with Helena, but also you tell her, right? Yeah, I think we should talk about that scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He threatened you.
As I was leaving in the elevator. They're trying to intimidate us.
Divide us. And also...
It's so that we won't work together because they know what will happen if we do. I'm gonna go get that map.
Hell yeah, we shared vessels. What's that? Well.
We had, uh, sex. Okay.

You and...

Like...

Like in a wellness session?

No, not...

Miss Casey, it was, uh...

At the retreat.

It's...

In your tent.

Oh. Yeah.
Oh. Yeah, Milchuk sort of forces Mark's hand there with the threat in the elevator.
If he's going to use that as a threat, then Mark just figures he should just, he should tell her anyway it's the right thing to do. But Miljic seems to assume that he's going to want to keep it from her.
So for that reason and others in the bathroom stall, he tells her that they shared vessels. I also like how Uta shot that scene in the stall, in the bathroom stall.
You know, there are so few spaces that we haven't shot in the MDR because it's just basically that room, the kitchenette, and the bathroom. And we've explored a lot of different ways to shoot things, and even in the bathroom.
But she figured out a blocking with U2 and a way of shooting that in the stall that I thought was really elegant. And actually, it's one of my favorite looking scenes in the show.
I love it too. And I love how isolated Heli looks and feels.
Yeah. And you can see physically Brit once she actually gets that information, sort of backing up, even though there's nowhere to go.
It's such a violation. Yeah.
And I think that was Uda as a director is really great with actors. And I think really looking at that scene from Helly's perspective, you know, of how to process that and the moments afterwards where she's kind of walking the halls and, you know, thinking about it and turning it in her head and comes to terms with what she feels.
And I thought Britt did an amazing job with that too in terms of just internally seeing her at that. And then editorially, the way that we're sort of, we start to intercut Gretchen and Dylan coming together as Dylan asks for a hug from her and we start to feel there's more between the two of them.
And as they start to come in and really have physical contact, at the time heli's there thinking about her first kiss with mark in season one and as that's happening and as they're finally getting to the point where they connect it something goes off for heli in her head where she realizes hey you know what helena had this but i want it because that's how i feel about. Look, I am so sorry.
I can't even imagine what it must be like to... You thought it was me.
100%. Which means you wanted to.
With me. Yeah.
What sucks is that she got to have that, and I didn't. That she used me to check my friends.
Used my body to get close to you. That she dresses me in the morning like I'm a baby.
That she controls me and this company and all of us. It's disgusting.
Hey, do you want me to, like, describe what happened? Like, I feel like you have every right to... No, no, no.
I don't want her memory. Okay.
I want my own.

Would you like that?

I love that.

I thought that was such a cool,

I remember reading that scene and being like,

yeah, that's such a place of strength for her.

Yeah, and that was something we talked a lot about with Bo Williman when he came in

and working on our season.

Yeah, Bo is one of our writers

and executive producers for season two. Yeah, and I remember that was the thought that came from him that was really a logical thought and a very emotionally grounded idea for, you know, when you're thinking about how did these characters react to one another.
Besides the mystery element of the show or the weirdness element of the show or any of that stuff, at the core, it's about these characters who we're trying to be with and track and believe. And it was his thought that, you know, she would want to have that for herself that I think really makes that scene so special because it's surprising.
And I think maybe as a viewer, I'm thinking, I thought about this when we were putting it together. It's like, wow, I hope this works for people because it seems unexpected to me that we would have had Mark and Helena sleep together in episode four and then Heli and Mark sleep together in episode six.
Yeah. And that might not be expected.
And all of a sudden people are getting together a lot more. But for me, it felt very organic in that this would be what Heli would want.
And these two people do have these feelings for each other. And the fact that she knows that she had that connection with him and she really wanted that was something that felt, okay, yeah, that's kind of like unexpected to see, but yet totally believable to me.

Yeah, because she and Mark were falling in love with each other and Helena decided to interrupt that and take it for her, steal it.

And yes, Bo really was instrumental and really great with Mark and Heli's stuff and sort of from that clearing of the decks in episode four, really terrific with figuring out a way to get this relationship back on track and the direction to push it in. Yeah.
And it's also something, you know, you talk about like season two and doing things we hadn't done before. It was ground that I was very trepidatious about stepping on in terms of we're going to a place we hadn't seen on the show before characters sleeping together and not wanting to do the cliche version of that or the you know the bad version of it but yet also not be afraid to follow that that line because it's a natural progression but it's also something we'd never really we'd never really done before that's right and it was really important to brit and i along with you and uda and our intimacy coordinator to come up with these two different love scenes with the two of the same people and make them very different and they are very different but they're both really beautiful in their own way you know we had shot episode four already so when uda approached the episode six love scene she was able to look at what we had done and she came up with her own language for that which is also i think one of the most elegant scenes in the show yeah the way that she filmed that between the two of you and the realness and the closeness and the beauty through the sort of the tent that you make for yourselves out of the plastic tarps that are over the unused carols and desks in there.
And it's really beautiful. I do have to bring up, because we're talking about it, that the love scene in episode four, what happened, I think I should, I think, is it okay to talk about that? Yeah, it's, it's, the floor is yours.
So I was directing, you know, the love scene in the tent in episode four, and Jessica, our cinematographer, said to me, like, I think maybe you should operate the camera for this scene, because it's going to be very intimate and close, and you're going to know what you want, and, you know, it's going to be handheld, or you should operate the camera for this scene because it's going to be very intimate and close and you're going to know what you want and um you know it's going to be handheld or so you should get in there and kind of do it that way for the actors and what did you think i was really when you kind of told us it's just going to be the three of us in there it was a relief because love scenes are always awkward but that made it just easier and and just less to worry about. Right.
At least that's what you thought. Because I get in there with the camera and so it's a tent and the tent is, we had it on a stage on the sound stage.
We're in the tent and the tent has an air mattress, right? The set has an air mattress that you guys are on.

That's right. That's part of the set is like, you know, that the tents had like lumen air mattresses.
So I don't know if you've ever stepped on an air mattress, but they're hard to get your, you know, it's hard to get your balance on. So when you're holding a camera, a heavy camera, and you're not a professional camera operator.

It is.

So we, you know, close set, quiet, intimacy coordinator. Everybody's doing everything right.
And it's very, you know, very, very intense and quiet. And it's like, okay, you know, roll camera.
And I go in there with the camera and you guys are there on the mattress. And it's just the from the heater and it's really beautiful the shot's beautiful and i'm standing there and i'm like now i'm like starting you guys are starting to do it and i'm starting to move around trying to be motivated by what i'm you know seeing in the scene and then i want to go in closer and close going closer and i'm stepping forward and i step on the air mattress and i literally fall on top of the two of you with my camera.
To paint the picture a little bit, I was laying down and Brit was on top of me at this point. And suddenly she just like falls right on top of me and Ben is on top of her just like, oh, oh, geez.
And the three of us are like in a pile suddenly. It was so ridiculous.
And here I am trying to be like Mr. Cool Director Guy.
And I've just become like klutzy Ben falling on top of two actors. It was so embarrassing.
Honestly, it felt like something from a Ben Stiller movie. That's what I'm saying.
I can't escape my Ben Stillerness even when I try. Your character is a cinematographer and it's a romantic comedy.
Yeah, that's not Bendo. It's Thieves.
Yeah, we have to come up with a new name for this guy. Yeah, Klutso.

Klutso, the cameraman. Yeah, Klutso.
It was so funny. And I did not operate anymore for the rest of the shoot.
All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back. The MD The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency.

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Shop Skinny Pop now. That coming together of Mark and Heli is so satisfying to see that you guys are back on track with each other and connected.
And, you know, at the same time, we're also then going to the outside world and we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and kind of literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at Lumen. Yeah, that's right.
Right, like the first sign of reintegration really starting to maybe go kick in more or go awry or just be out of your control you sort of flip out on ragabi and you and you're also getting hungry which is a side effect of the reintegration and you just storm out and you go to the chinese restaurant and that's where we have this you know incredible sort of uh we we always like called it the heat scene yeah mark friedman who is digging into this scene, also one of our writers and executive producers, coined the heat scene. I remember hearing about it long before it happened.
We always talked about it being the heat scene. And the heat being the movie, the Michael Mann movie, the scene where Pacino and De Niro meet for the only time in that movie.
And, you know, the audience has been waiting for that moment. And we thought, well, this is kind of this moment where, you know, Helena and Audie Mark are meeting for the first time.
And what is that going to be about? And I thought you guys did an amazing job with that scene. And the writing of the scene, I think, is really, really interesting.
And there's so much under the surface and so many levels to what you're experiencing with her and what she wants from you. It's really interesting.
It never should have happened. And it never will again.
We take pride as a company to be better than that. And we will be better.
That's nice to hear. Thanks.
Of course. So you know all about it, then? Yes, I know all about it.
I'm like the head of the company, Mark. Right.
Dumb. Sorry.
Yeah, you should be sorry. Really? I'm kidding.
Okay. You're clearly not dumb.
I don't know. You're the one who invented a revolutionary medical procedure.
Hey, now, that was not me. That was my father.
Uh-huh. You should meet him sometime.
Your father? Sure, why not? You want to take me home to dad already? Yeah, I think it's finally time. Okay, sure, let's do it.
He'd be the first. So no pressure.
Yeah, none whatsoever. I love this scene.
It was fun to do, and it was just fun to kind of get this new dynamic between Britt and I and kind of figure out what it would be. And it ended up being kind of having this charge to it.
Like these two people, like, you know, Audi Mark is scared shitless of this person and has no concept of who she is to him on the inside. But she does, obviously, and she knows they've actually slept together.
So there's so much going on, but the fact that there ended up being this almost flirtatious charge to the scene was something that just really started happening while we were shooting it and felt really interesting. You sort of dip into it and then you go away from it and then you give into it and then you're well she starts fucking with me by like getting gemma's name wrong right what do you think that's about oh i i think she's 100% fucking with me just toying seeing what reaction she could get so interesting she gets one it's so interesting because it's almost like some sort of a manipulation that Milchick would do on the inside, you know? But it's Helena doing it on the outside.
But maybe she's not, you know, Britt and I never talked about that or any of, maybe it's sincere, I don't know. But that's how I took it then.
I think it's, yeah. And when you think of all that's sort of the baggage in that scene, it's like earlier that same day, you both slept with each other.
Yeah. But neither of us are aware of that.
Neither of you are aware of that, but she's aware that she slept with you and you're not aware that you slept with her. With either of her.
Either of her. And that to me, what's so interesting to me about that is like, again, it's the question of like, what permeates? What permeates? What is, you know, what pheromones are there? What sort of, you know, what's the memory there? What is the connection? What's the love feeling? What's the, all those things.
There's just so much going on to, I'm sure as actors, there's just so much there to have just sort of waiting to like call up or, you know, play with. Yeah.
Yeah. That's part of what was interesting about it is that there was something there.

And. have just sort of waiting to like call up or you know play with yeah yeah that's part of what was interesting about is that there was something there and it was entirely different from whatever connection or flotation exists in either of the versions that we had done before it was like this new yeah weirder more lived in thing because the both of these people have lived a lot longer than the innies and the grown-ups more.
It was just weird. And we shot that at a great restaurant called Eng's up in Kingston, New York.
It's a beautiful restaurant. Great exterior, too.
Yeah. And then you're all freaked out.
You come out. That sort of like spurs you to say, yes, let's go and let's do the sort of like the souped up version of reintegration where she's going to, you know, she's going to inject the chip and really take it to the next level.
And then Devin comes over while you're feeling the effects of this. And, you know, the ending of the episode is really you basically going unconscious.
We don't know what's going to happen to you. Yeah.
There's a seizure. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's gone as far.
And for us as an audience, we remember what happened to Petey outside of the gas station. And then we're also left at the end with, you know, after the Burt and Irving dinner where it kind of all comes out.
You know, it's just interesting thematically in this episode. I think it's all the relationships sort of, you know, the relationship confrontation stuff is happening.
And then, yeah, Burt and Irving kind of realize that there's something going on there between them two. Yep.
Same thing. 100%.
And we're left with that last moment of Burt at the door where we don't quite know what Audi Burt is up to. And it's great because Chris Walken can just give a look.
And I think when Chris is looking out that door at him, I don't know what Chris is thinking. He's probably thinking, I'm Bugs Bunny.
Yeah, I was just going to say, I think it was Bugs Bunny. Chris Walken, Bugs Bunny can be chilling.
All right, this is great, man. Yeah, this has been great.
But we've got one final treat for listeners this episode. We got to talk with the great Sarah Bach, who plays Miss Wong.
So let's go talk with Lumen's new deputy floor manager of the Severed Floor, Sarah Bach. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to see you guys.
Same. Yeah.
Could not be happier to have you here. How's life for you these days? It's pretty good.
It's pretty crazy. It's crazy that the show's coming out and midterms are next week and everything.
Yeah. You're in your first year of college and the show just came out a few weeks ago.
What has it been like? Honestly, it's been pretty chill because when it first came out, I was really sick. So like I didn't see anyone.
But like now that I've been out, my friends have been really supportive. And like they threw me like a little surprise premiere party, which was so sweet.
I saw that on Instagram. It was so cool.
Oh my gosh, yeah. No, that made my week.
But yeah, everyone's been pretty chill about it, which I appreciate. That's great.
I heard you when you were doing the mic check talking about choreographing something. Are you working on a show there right now? Oh, yeah.
There's like one of the theater boards. It's directed towards TYA, like theater for young audiences.
So they're putting on Frog and Toad right now. And I'm assistant choreographing that.
So this morning we were working out some of the routines and teaching it to the cast, which is really fun. That's great.
Yeah. Well, you're awesome in the show.
When we found you, I was so happy because Dan had this idea to have this character of Miss Wong and that she would be a young person. And we were thinking about who she could be and what she could be like.
And it's that thing with any actor when you're looking for somebody to play a role, when somebody walks in and they just have a special quality that feels so right. And I wonder what your memory is of coming into audition for the show.
Oh, my gosh. I was so scared.
I don't know if you guys, if you remember, like, my first time meeting you. We were both testing for COVID because that was still going on.
And it was at my final callback. And I just remember being so terrified to meet you, but also like so excited.
But no, I was so terrified. And how did you hear about it? Because you don't live in like Hollywood or New York or anything, right? No, I'm from North Carolina.
So I got a self-tape from my manager and I just put myself on tape and hoped for the best. Cool.
And then you came in and you read in person with us, I remember. Yeah.
And at the callback, did you feel like when you walked out of it, did you feel like, okay, that went well? Or because I know when I've auditioned for things in the past, sometimes you have a feeling when you, you know, feels like it went well, like, oh, maybe this could work out. Yeah.
I remember the in-person one I had a lot of fun at, and I thought that went really well. Except you did bring me back into the room at one point, and you asked me to improvise, which I remember terrified me.
Because all the other girls, they were like, oh, my gosh, he had us improvise. I was like, that sucks for them.
Like, I'm happy I went first, thank God. Like, I guess I didn't even think

that you guys could possibly make me do that.

And the second I thought that, then pulled me back.

But other than that, I thought it went pretty well.

So we all know that Ben is just so mean, right?

So that was your first taste of how mean he can be,

making you improvise.

Improvise.

It was with that water toy,

and I didn't know what it was,

so I was so confused.

Oh, right.

Oh, okay. he can be making you improvise.
Improvise. It was with that water toy and I didn't know what it was so I was so confused.
Oh right. Oh yeah.
Boy I mean and then the water toy became I mean it's really like you really mastered that thing. Had you ever seen one of those before? No I'd never seen it.
That used to be all we had Sarah. Back before phones and technology.
Cave in the caveman days when we grew up, that's what you played with. No, I loved them.
They were really fun. I just remember you showing up on set your first day and just being so impressed with you right out of the gate.
You were so on it. You were dialed in, so funny, relaxed.
Oh, wait, that's so sweet. I did not feel that way.
I felt like I was chaotic that first day and stressed, but getting to see what you guys were doing, I was like, I need to try and be on their level and fake it till I make it. Yeah, I think we're all faking it till we make it.
Yeah, pretty much. You were very, I would not say, the perception for me was you were not chaotic or frazzled.
You kind of just were very comfortable in your skin. And there's a sort of a stillness to Miss Wong and, you know, this sort of interesting sort of layers to you because you can seem incredibly innocent, but then also there are moments where you seem like you're very knowing and, you know, sometimes authoritative too.
Yeah. I remember on my first day when you had me do that ball game scene and you had me stare at Adam for a super long time.
That was when I started to realize like how scary she could be.

Yeah.

And figure out more about the character.

You're intimidating. You really are and were.

By the way, that's not an easy thing to do, I think, as an actor, which is, you know, just ask somebody to really not do anything other than just be there in the moment and just look at someone. Because it can be incredibly revealing in a way.
Yeah. And both of you, that's one of my favorite moments in that first episode is really that energy between the two of you.
And you just did not flinch at all. What were you thinking when you were staring at him like that? I was thinking, oh my God, this has been like, oh my gosh, I've been staring for a really long time.
Yeah, it was scary. And I remember you came up to me a lot and you would be like, I don't know what you're thinking right now, but keep thinking it.

Yeah, no, and that's the other thing.

Like, you don't want to mess with something that's going well, right, with an actor.

You don't want to tell them something that they become self-conscious of.

You want to talk a little bit about Milchick and your relationship with Mr. Milchick? Obviously, it's a very layered relationship that evolves.

Let's take a listen to that scene where you guys talk about Milchik's performance review. I had my performance review yesterday.
How did it go? Many valid concerns were raised,

which I look forward to addressing. I'm glad for you.

I feel I should remind you, you cannot graduate from this fellowship until I have deemed you for you. I feel I should remind you,

you cannot graduate from this fellowship

until I have deemed you winter-tide material.

This will mean using your time well,

focusing on your own duties,

and eradicating from your essence childish folly.

I understand, sir. I shall be busy for the rest of the day.

I trust you can stew at the floor in my stead? Of course. Good.
You may sit at your regular desk.

Thank you, Mr. Milchick.

It's such an interesting relationship between you two. It feels like there is some sort of

Thank you. Mr.
Milchick. It's such an interesting relationship between you two.

It feels like there is some sort of power struggle happening there.

Yeah, they definitely have a very interesting dynamic because he's her boss,

but also she kind of disagrees maybe with what he's doing a little bit,

and she has her own opinions.

So doing those scenes with Tramiel was so much fun because, I mean, he's terrifying when he's Mr. Milchick.
So getting to just like stare at him and like challenge him a little bit, that was really fun. Yeah, that's my experience working with him is he's the most incredibly warm, sweet, funny, laughing presence.
But you guys are so good together. I love the scene in the supply closet in episode five when you're getting ready for the funeral for Irving.
And that little power struggle that's happening there between the two of you is really fun to watch. Yeah, I loved all my scenes with Tramiel.
Those were my favorites. He's so amazing.
And for episode four, what was your experience like when we went up into the mountains to shoot that scene? Because, I mean, you had to learn how to play the theremin for this episode. Yeah.
Like for real. Yeah.
I remember having a bunch of theremin lessons. My theremin teacher, Jennifer, she was fantastic.
she just really drilled me on like the technique which hopefully i got right theremin players don't come at me but but yeah we just that's the only song i know how to play the song that's in the show i learned how to play like the severance theme but that's it and we would just that's incredible That's cool. You can play the severance theme on the theremin.
Yeah, it was fun. I mean, and for people, we talked about it in episode four, but the theremin is like an instrument where you don't touch it.
It's just, you're moving your hands through space. Yeah, and you can't really use muscle memory because like depending on the environment, like the wavelengths change.
I don't really know. It's weird instrument, but it's really fun.
But then you almost get to play at Irving's funeral and he stops you. And I think we really see Miss Wong's cockles go up there a little bit.
She gets pretty pissed off. Yeah, she was told she was going to play and he went back on that agreement.
How dare he? Bad move. So are your friends, like your friends who are throwing you a party, like is it strange to be in the show? Are you feeling like that it's sort of affected your everyday life in any way? Or is it kind of like you're at school, you're doing your thing, people are cool, like you were saying, and you're just kind of going forward? Well, I was pretty intentional, like coming in.
I didn't want anyone to like really know. So for the first few months, only two people knew.
And then once it was like more announced than everyone had like already gotten to know me. But I was, oh my gosh, two days ago, I was coming back from the gym.
It's like a mile and a half away from the dining hall and it started downpouring rain. And when I got to the dining hall, I was disgusting and like soaked in rain.
And I got recognized for the first time by this kid and he asked me for a picture it was so embarrassing and then everyone else around him then caught on and they were all asking me for pictures I was like are you guys sure like this is not a great look right now I'm going to say that's not the last time that's going to happen to you. This is my prediction in your life.
Okay. So be prepared.
I think it's so awesome that, you know, that you're able to do what you're doing, going to school. And you're just, I'm just so impressed with you since I first met you.
And you're a joy to work with. And I just wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you in the future.
Oh, thank you. I had so much fun making the show with both of you.
Well done, Sarah. Yeah, and good luck on midterm, Sarah.
I'm so glad that I am not taking this. Thank you.
I'll need that. Yeah, if you need any advice on studying, I'm here anytime.
Were you a good student, Adam? No. This has been such a terrific episode.
But before we go, we got to make time for our friend zach cherry's favorite segment of course where we check in with him and he has a prediction about what he thinks will happen in episode seven so zach we're doing this for you we know it's important to you so go ahead hello again it's zach here that was an intense episode of severance and i'm here to tell you things are only gonna get more intense won't that be fun next time on severance i have a feeling that mark's reintegration is gonna go a little funky actually, it's going to be a real Freaky Friday situation where he switches bodies with Ruggabi. And now he's a surgeon at the hospital.
He doesn't have the skills. Hijinks are going to ensue.
It's going to be a real sharp pivot tonally for the show, but I think fans are going to be pretty excited with what happens. I have to say that's actually one of the best predictions he's ever had.
It's really good. Because it actually, to me, thematically, maybe tonally is totally off Freaky Friday, but it does kind of thematically, to me, kind of work in what the show could do.
I love thinking about the sort of broad, mid-aughts, Lindsay Lohan version of Severance happening. I think that's a good idea.
I just appreciate that Zach didn't end this one by encouraging people to reach out to us about various subjects. Yeah, I know.
What is he talking about there? By the way, the next time on Severance makes me think of next time on Lonnie do you remember that? Oh yeah that web series it's from Oh totally with Alex Yeah Alex Enfanger and Dan Shemp it's so funny it was like a show that you never saw the actual show all you ever saw were the previews for next week on and it was some crazy thing so I recommend that I did an episode of that Oh you did? I did You did so many cool web shows Alright. That is it for this episode.
The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two, episode seven. And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.
And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. Yes.
The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.
Our executive producers are Barry Finkel,

Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis,

Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis.

This show is produced by Zandra Ellen,

Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott.

This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil.

We had additional engineering from Javi Krusas and Davey Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season.

Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LaVey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuth.
And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderutin, Ashwin Ramesh,

Maria Noto,

John Baker,

and Oliver Acker.

And at Great Scott,

Kevin Cotter,

Josh Martin,

and Christy Smith

at Rise Management.

We had additional production help

from Kristen Torres

and Melissa Slaughter.

I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott.

Thank you for listening.

And remember to hang in there.

Mm-hmm.