S2E6: Attila (with Christopher Walken and Sarah Bock)

Speaker 1 Adam.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 4 Okay, give me a second.

Speaker 5 It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.

Speaker 6 Oh, wait. I did it right away.

Speaker 3 Okay, keep them close. If our partner, ZipRecruiter, was helping Lumen hire for various roles, how do you think HR would feel about ZipRecruiter's ability to search resumes quickly via keywords?

Speaker 5 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 7 I think they'd love it.

Speaker 9 It's efficient. It's targeted.

Speaker 10 We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 3 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
So if you were actually a business owner and not an actor who plays a guy who works at a weird company, like you do in the show,

Speaker 3 ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more. And they're designed to make hiring faster and easier.

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Speaker 6 ZipRecruiter excels at speed.

Speaker 14 It's smart technology.

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Speaker 3 Yeah, see how much faster and easier hiring can be with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Speaker 10 You know what?

Speaker 6 Lumen should make ZipRecruiter a perk.

Speaker 8 It's way more fun than a finger trap.

Speaker 3 Finger traps are not even fun.

Speaker 9 No, I actually get legitimately claustrophobic when I use a finger trap.

Speaker 3 Yes. I know.
Even the prop ones.

Speaker 7 Totally.

Speaker 3 Because the finger traps are real.

Speaker 11 It freaks me out when I use it.

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That's right.

Speaker 11 Ziprecruiter.com slash S-E-V-E-R-A-N-C-E.

Speaker 19 This show is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Hey, it's me, Adam, and I'm really excited about this one because we have two dogs.

Speaker 19 And like every family who has a dog or two, we love ours to a borderline crazy degree. But here's the thing.
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Speaker 10 Why is that a big deal?

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Speaker 19 I mean, that's basically the amount of time you had to wait between seasons one and two of our show.

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Speaker 22 You still like, do you still get as excited about working as you did when you were starting out?

Speaker 23 You know, in this business, if you do something and it works, chances are you'll be asked to do do something like it again.

Speaker 23 And I find that now that I'm old, when I thought I was going to get grandpa parts, you know, and kids coming to you saying, Grandpa, what should we do?

Speaker 23 And I say, you know, just always do the right thing, you know, always that kind of part. But I'm still being asked to play vampires and

Speaker 23 those guys.

Speaker 22 Vampire, grandparent, grandpa, vampire.

Speaker 22 Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

Speaker 8 I'm Adam Scott.

Speaker 22 And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every single episode of Severance.

Speaker 13 Today, we're talking about the sixth episode of season two, Attila, written by Aaron Wagoner and directed by Uta Breschowitz.

Speaker 22 And we have a really special guest this episode. We're joined by the legendary Chris Walkin, who plays Burt Goodman.

Speaker 7 Oh my God.

Speaker 22 Yeah, really excited for that. I got a chance to talk to him, him, and it was, I have to say, a highlight, a highlight of my

Speaker 22 young career.

Speaker 8 Your nascent show business career.

Speaker 2 I bet it was.

Speaker 12 What an honor to have him on the show. Good lord.

Speaker 22 It was incredible.

Speaker 8 After that, Ben and I will unpack the rest of episode six and we'll also hear from Sarah Bach, who plays Miss Wong, to check in on how things are going on the Severed Floor.

Speaker 22 who has a real nascent career.

Speaker 16 She sure does, an actual one.

Speaker 22 And an actual future in show business because she's amazing. And of course, we got Zach Cherry back to predict.
So far, he's 0% right, anything that he's predicted.

Speaker 25 Yeah, but in a way, he's been on target,

Speaker 14 if you know what I mean.

Speaker 7 Shh.

Speaker 25 No.

Speaker 20 Like, if you think about it in a certain way, he's 100% right.

Speaker 22 About what?

Speaker 8 Whatever, man.

Speaker 1 I guess you don't get it.

Speaker 20 Okay, here is your spoiler warning. We are talking about everything from episode six of season two.

Speaker 13 So go watch it before you listen to this podcast.

Speaker 22 Yes, don't worry. The podcast will still be here.
We promise.

Speaker 22 Adam?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Everything all right? How's things going with you, by the way?

Speaker 14 Everything's good.

Speaker 26 You know what I just realized is we are at the halfway point of season two.

Speaker 7 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 27 How weird is that?

Speaker 22 It's weird, and it's been fun. I've enjoyed it very much.
It's been interesting.

Speaker 22 You know, these episodes are much more firmly in my frontal cortex or whatever part of my brain that would remember things.

Speaker 22 So it's kind of like dipping into the more recent past.

Speaker 8 Yeah, much different experience than going through season one, that's for sure.

Speaker 22 Yeah, yeah, for sure. But it was great to just now talk to Chris Watkin.
I actually just came from Chris Watkins' house.

Speaker 13 I'm so jealous.

Speaker 17 You got to actually go talk to him at his house and talk about this particular episode and his character and stuff.

Speaker 22 Yeah, yeah, we got to talk a little bit about the episode and about, you know, how he got involved with Severance and also about acting. I got to like really nerd out a little bit.

Speaker 7 That's great.

Speaker 22 I'm happy that I finally, after knowing Chris probably for like 35 years in terms of when I first met him, but never really being like, you know, like, I could never say like, hey, I'm friends with Chris Walken.

Speaker 22 By this point, having worked together a few times, it was great to be able to kind of feel comfortable enough to ask him some nerdy movie questions about acting.

Speaker 22 Cause I really, you know, I never say this in front of him because he's just way too humble. But, you know, I think he's one of our best actors ever.

Speaker 18 100%.

Speaker 22 One thing I'll tell you that he told me, and we didn't get this on tape in the interview, it was like right after we put the microphones away.

Speaker 22 We were talking still about acting and how sometimes nobody knows what you're thinking as an actor, right?

Speaker 22 But they just see you thinking and that thought is what reads and the audience kind of fills it in. It makes it feel real because they're actually thinking about something.

Speaker 22 He said that Bugs Bunny is one of his favorite actors ever. And he was saying this kind of with a twinkle in his eye, but not really.

Speaker 22 And he said, a lot of times I've played roles as if I was Bugs Bunny.

Speaker 22 But nobody knew. Now,

Speaker 22 which character, which movie, we don't know.

Speaker 16 That is so Christopher Walken.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 he means that.

Speaker 22 He means it.

Speaker 26 Yeah, that's why it's so Christopher Walken.

Speaker 12 He's not like messing around.

Speaker 22 And the result of that is a fascinating performance, i'm sure yeah yeah yeah it was great but i started off with your question adam about the hair i said like adam thinks you have awesome hair and he was like yeah hair is important

Speaker 26 so cool well let's get to it let's listen to it i'm excited

Speaker 22 Adam Scott wanted me to ask you about

Speaker 22 he thinks your hair is awesome. And I think Adam has amazing hair.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 22 How important is

Speaker 22 hair for you, acting-wise?

Speaker 23 Curiously,

Speaker 23 it's important.

Speaker 23 And I have no idea why.

Speaker 22 It is, right?

Speaker 23 Yeah.

Speaker 23 I remember when I was in high school, there was a girl I was crazy about. I wanted to take it to the prom.
It took me weeks to think about it.

Speaker 23 And I said to her, finally, you know, I said, would you go to the prom?

Speaker 23 And she said, I would go with you, except I've got this boyfriend, he's an older guy, and he's very jealous. This is, I was 15, so it was like mid-50s.
And she took out a wallet.

Speaker 23 You know, these girls had these big wallets with all these pictures in them. She flipped, and she showed me this guy who was so unbelievably good-looking.

Speaker 7 You couldn't,

Speaker 23 you know, he's Zula and the good looking.

Speaker 23 And I said, that's not a picture of your boyfriend. You cut that out of a magazine.
It was obvious. And she said, yeah, it's this guy.
He's a singer. I'm crazy.
But anyway, it was Elvis.

Speaker 22 What?

Speaker 23 And I, oh my God. And so

Speaker 23 I went and I bought a shirt with a big collar. I combed my hair into a pompadour and I took her to the dance.
So I think that's where the hair thing might have started.

Speaker 7 Wow. Wow.

Speaker 22 And then ever since you've kind of, because I remember like even when we first started working on the show, you were very specific about your hair.

Speaker 22 And I totally identified with it because I get crazy about my hair too.

Speaker 7 It's a thing. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 22 Like you want to feel comfortable, right? And I remember you were like, just let it, just let it be what it is.

Speaker 23 Also, your hair gives you a silhouette. Sometimes, you know, you see your shadow.
The hair is a big deal. But why that is, I don't know.
It's a mystery.

Speaker 22 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 22 So I love that you're on the show and that you play Bert. I had dinner with Daturo and he said, I thought it'd be great if Chris could be Bert when I first met him.

Speaker 23 Well, that must be how it started. Because in a situation like Burt and Irving, you need something between the actors.

Speaker 23 Actors, of course, generate their own energy, but when you put them together, sometimes something else happens. And I had known John for a long time.
I'd been in, I think, three of his movies.

Speaker 22 He directed you, right? Yeah.

Speaker 23 And it was sort of like people, like your mom and dad. It's like they find each other funny and interesting and enjoy each other's company, you know, all that stuff that make a relationship.

Speaker 23 And I feel that way about John. And, you know, even if he gets annoyed at me, I know he feels that way about me.

Speaker 22 I think he loves you. I mean, I feel like he loves you.

Speaker 23 No, we do. We're kind of brothers.
Yeah. And I think when you point the camera at that, the camera sees it.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And so much of the Burt and Irving relationship in the first season of the show is about sort of that connection that's kind of between the words and that's going on the subtext of just the energy between you two.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 It's that thing that you can see with people. You know, sometimes I meet a guy and

Speaker 23 maybe I don't even like him. And then his wife walks in.
And I can see that she thinks he's funny and terrific and she's crazy about him. And I have to rethink it.

Speaker 23 I think, well, if she feels that way, he must be okay. And I think people do that with each other.
They reinforce.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 23 That's interesting. Yeah.
They give each other confidence and they reflect that. You know, if you're looking at it, you can see it.

Speaker 7 You know, you can look at

Speaker 23 a good marriage. You know, you can look at a friendship.
You know, you just see it.

Speaker 22 Yeah. It's interesting to me about acting, too, that you you talk about like having confidence, but so much of it is also, I think, about vulnerability, too.

Speaker 23 Daring to be vulnerable, yeah.

Speaker 22 Daring to be vulnerable.

Speaker 23 Yeah, to be able to take that chance and know that, you know, they've

Speaker 23 I think of acting sometimes as being like the circus thing, the trapeze, you know, where you flip off the thing. The other guy's going to be there to catch you.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 23 You know.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 23 They're looking after each other. Yeah.

Speaker 22 Right. And I remember the first day that we worked on the show.
It was sort of the first scene between you and Irving, you and Taturo.

Speaker 22 And I remember being very nervous, even though I'd known you over the years, I'd never worked with you as a director,

Speaker 22 been a fan for a long time.

Speaker 22 But, you know, for me, my generation growing up watching you in the movies was really very much informed my desire to want to be in movies, watching the kind of stuff that you were doing.

Speaker 22 So I was a little intimidated. I'm curious, like, when you're working with a director, what are you looking for?

Speaker 7 Well,

Speaker 23 there are certain directors where you know that you're going to be seen at your best.

Speaker 23 I remember when I was about to make a movie with Steven Spielberg, I was at the Chateau Marmont and I was waiting for the elevator and a great actor, I won't say who it is, but a great actor was standing there who had worked with Steven Spielberg.

Speaker 23 And he said, what are you up to? Actors always say to each other, you know, what are you busy doing something? And I said, yes, I'm about to work with your friend Steven Spielberg.

Speaker 23 And he said, ah, you're in very good hands. And that was absolutely true.
I didn't know Spielberg, but when I was done shooting it, I thought, yeah, that's a perfect description.

Speaker 23 You know, you get the feeling that you're in very good hands. He looked after you.

Speaker 22 In a way, does that free you up?

Speaker 23 Absolutely. You feel you can, you know, if it's not right, you'll do another take, you'll tone it down, you'll do this, you'll do that.
If you're very upset and sad, it might be light and funny.

Speaker 23 Mike Nichols gives this talk about naming things. He would say, what are we talking about in a scene?

Speaker 22 What's the scene about?

Speaker 7 What are we talking about, really?

Speaker 23 People talk all the time about this and that, but underneath it, there's something going on. And he talked about that.
And then he'd say, okay, let's take that and flip it.

Speaker 22 So if like you and I are in a scene and I'm mad at you or like, let's flip it around.

Speaker 23 You're crazy about me suddenly. Right.

Speaker 22 But I'm still playing the same words,

Speaker 22 the same text, but it's having a different intention underneath it.

Speaker 23 And it led me to the idea that, you know, the audience doesn't have to know what I'm talking about, just so long as they know that I know what I'm talking about. And that's like life.

Speaker 23 You know, I've met people, they talk, I don't know what they're talking about, but I know that they're absolutely solid, you know.

Speaker 7 Right, right.

Speaker 22 And you can trust

Speaker 23 that they know what they're talking about.

Speaker 22 And as an actor, that's like a that's what you want, right?

Speaker 22 Because most of the time, you know, you're playing a part, you're playing a doctor or a lawyer or something that you're not, but you want people to believe that you are.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 22 How do you get yourself to believe that? Because I remember you telling me when we first met a little bit about your process, about how you like look at a script and prepare to like really live in it.

Speaker 23 You know, it makes me think about severance, severance. You know, whether how severance would apply to an actor.

Speaker 23 Because what I do at work has mostly to do with what I do in my kitchen.

Speaker 23 You know, I stand for

Speaker 23 as much time as I have in my kitchen at this counter with the script.

Speaker 23 And I go over it and over it and over it. And you see one day you're reading it, sort of mumbling it to yourself, and something sounds right.

Speaker 23 It sounds like, you know, if I was talking to somebody, I would believe them.

Speaker 22 So you hear it, you say it out loud,

Speaker 7 and you hear it.

Speaker 23 And then suddenly it sounds like you're telling the truth. And that's it.
That's what I'm looking for. But I did that in my kitchen.
And then I try to bring it, you know, to the set.

Speaker 22 How does it translate? Like, do you always, do you get there and you go, oh, I did this better in my kitchen? Or do you.

Speaker 23 No, you found out what you're talking about.

Speaker 23 Right.

Speaker 23 You've named it.

Speaker 22 You found it in the kitchen and so you can take it.

Speaker 23 Yeah, you know what it is.

Speaker 22 And then I found watching you work when we do scenes, every take is a little different.

Speaker 7 Sure.

Speaker 23 And that's another thing to do with severance. It's that thing with actors.

Speaker 23 You know, I've been in the business for such a long time and there are actors who I've seen in dozens of movies and I think I know them a little bit.

Speaker 23 And then suddenly you've got a job and you're working with them and you meet them and you're on the set with them every day.

Speaker 23 And it's that same person that you know from all the movies that you saw but there's a little difference you know they're a little bit this or that or they're a little funnier than you thought they were they're a little more serious they're a little more you know

Speaker 23 and

Speaker 23 it's the same except it's a little bit different and i think of that with severance too definitely you know the guy goes to work and then he goes home he's the same guy but he's a little bit

Speaker 22 that's what's interesting I think, about the show for actors is that Adam is playing Audi and Innie.

Speaker 22 John is playing his Audi and Innie, but they're the same person, but they're different aspects of themselves.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And the question of how much bleeds through, you know, what are the commonalities between the Innie and the Audi, I think is really kind of fun for actors to explore. Yeah.

Speaker 23 And it's the difference between the guy at home and the guy at work.

Speaker 22 Right. Do you feel as playing Bert as an actor, playing these parts? Because we were talking about like what, you know, you're just an actor, right?

Speaker 22 But you haven't lived these experiences that you're portraying most of the time. Do you think that's valuable for people?

Speaker 22 I think it's really valuable for people, even if it's, you know, these ridiculous actors trying to be serious. And it's so easy to make fun of actors, right?

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 22 But I was telling you that like in Deerhunter, you did this amazing work.

Speaker 22 Like, do you, can you take that in and go, okay, yeah, I was able to help people experience something even though I didn't experience it?

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 23 it depends on, you know, they say about certain actors, well, he's always in character. I suppose I've never felt that I was that way.

Speaker 23 I, you know, I kind of come home and I leave it at the set and I come back the next day. I remember I played a part once.
I played all these disturbed and disturbing people.

Speaker 23 And I was playing this one guy. And this guy was particularly twisted.

Speaker 23 And I was sitting in my dressing room in front of the makeup mirror, and I looked up and I saw myself, and I immediately looked away

Speaker 23 like a reflex. I didn't want to make eye contact with this guy, and I didn't want to deal with him.

Speaker 7 I didn't want to be around him.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 so I suppose it can

Speaker 7 get into your pores.

Speaker 22 Actors talk about playing bad characters or evil characters and finding a way to empathize with them or some find their humanity. Do you look at it that way?

Speaker 23 Yeah, usually I just, I don't take it seriously.

Speaker 22 But like when like doing a movie like Deer Hunter, you take, like, how do you, how did you approach that?

Speaker 23 Well, the Deer Hunter was different. It was the beginning for me.

Speaker 23 It's one of the first, and there I had this big, beautiful part, and I was in this wonderful different locations and with these actors, you know,

Speaker 23 it was heaven. I knew that whatever it was that was happening was going to make a big difference in my life.
You know, how sometimes,

Speaker 23 you know, like when you meet your wife or something like that, you know that something's going on. And I remember walking down the street in Bangkok.

Speaker 23 We were in the middle of shooting and the rain started to come down like a wall. You know,

Speaker 23 rain there is different from

Speaker 23 other places and it's hot. It's hot rain.
And I remember thinking, this is just great. You know, I'm in this thing that's so amazing.

Speaker 22 You could appreciate that. Yeah.

Speaker 23 You could feel it.

Speaker 22 Yeah. The scene for me that I was telling you about earlier is the scene where you're, you know, in the hospital after, and it's just this moment, there's no dialogue in it.

Speaker 22 It's a very, you know, where you just, you feel it all. I'm just curious because that moment to me is like one of those moments for me in movies.
Like, how did you approach a scene like that?

Speaker 23 It was exactly to me. Like, when I was really little, I don't know, eight years old, I used to go to summer camp.

Speaker 23 And it was only a couple of hours away in the Poconos or something, but I felt like I'd been sent to Mars, you know, and that I was never getting back.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 I didn't like anybody I was with. And it was just a nightmare.
And I remember clearly that

Speaker 23 all that came back to me, you know, sitting there on the balcony in Bangkok. It was just like I was eight years old and I couldn't get home.

Speaker 23 Wow.

Speaker 22 It's amazing to me because I remember going to camp, being homesick, my dad coming up because I was so home and never feeling anything like that. Like I was just so alone.

Speaker 7 Oh, absolutely. And I was like,

Speaker 22 I was up in Maine. My parents sent me up there.
And

Speaker 22 it's amazing to me because that feeling

Speaker 22 is the pain of that.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 Why do people send their kids to summer camp?

Speaker 22 So that we can have great performances and movies.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but so you can learn.

Speaker 22 Okay, we're going to take a short break, but I'll be back with Christopher Walken to talk about the dinner scene with Bert, Irving, and Fields right after this.

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Speaker 30 Hey everyone, I'm Josh Radner, and I am so excited to tell you about how we made your mother, a rewatch podcast looking back at how I met your mother.

Speaker 30 And I am here with Craig Thomas, who co-created the show along with Carter Bays.

Speaker 31 Hi, Craig. Hey, Josh.
Somehow, it has been 20 years since the show premiered.

Speaker 31 I'm going to check the math on that. 10 years since it went off the air.

Speaker 31 And we thought that made this a perfect time to look back, see what the hell we did, and why the show still seems to resonate with fans around the world today.

Speaker 30 Follow and listen to How We Made Your Mother wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7 Adam,

Speaker 3 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 4 Okay, give me a second.

Speaker 5 It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.

Speaker 6 Oh, wait, I did it right away.

Speaker 3 Okay, keep them close. If our partner, ZipRecruiter, was was helping Lumen hire for various roles, how do you think HR would feel about ZipRecruiter's ability to search resumes quickly via keywords?

Speaker 5 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 7 I think they'd love it.

Speaker 9 It's efficient. It's targeted.

Speaker 11 We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 3 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
So if you were actually a business owner and not an actor who plays a guy who works at a weird company, like you do in the show. Hey, wait a second.

Speaker 3 ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more. And they're designed to make hiring faster and easier.

Speaker 3 So see for yourself when you try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash severance.

Speaker 6 ZipRecruiter excels at speed.

Speaker 14 It's smart technology.

Speaker 2 Starts showing your job to qualified candidates immediately.

Speaker 14 And if you've got your eye on an exceptional candidate, you can use ZipRecruiter's Invite to Apply message to personally reach out to them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, see how much faster and easier hiring can be with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Speaker 10 You know what?

Speaker 6 Lumen should make ZipRecruiter a perk.

Speaker 8 It's way more fun than a finger trap.

Speaker 3 Finger traps are not even fun.

Speaker 18 No, I actually get legitimately claustrophobic when I use a finger trap.

Speaker 17 Yes.

Speaker 3 I know. Even the prop ones.
Totally. Because the finger traps are real.

Speaker 12 It freaks me out when I use it.

Speaker 3 You know what else is real? What? ZipRecruiter.com is real. So go to it, ziprecuiter.com/slash severance right now to try it for free.
That's right.

Speaker 11 ZipRecruiter.com/slash S-E-V-E-R-A-N-C-E.

Speaker 22 Bert in the show is like a sweet guy. And you were saying, like, you like to play guys like that, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 And it's also that, you know, what's that, who said that thing that most men live lives of quiet desperation? When I was a kid, I knew this guy. And he worked as a, he had a printing shop.

Speaker 23 He made menus and business cards and all that.

Speaker 23 But what he did in his spare time, and if you went to this little cramped apartment that he had, he built sets out of cardboard and painted them of Gilbert and Sullivan productions.

Speaker 23 He was fanatical about it. And he went to,

Speaker 23 he was always at the matinee of this or that. And I thought, you know, here's a guy who's single.
He doesn't have any kids or anybody to take care of but himself.

Speaker 23 And I thought, why are you in this printing shop? Why aren't you, you know, involved in the theater? Why aren't you doing Gilbert and Sullivan?

Speaker 23 You know, why aren't you building sets, doing the thing you love?

Speaker 7 I feel about Bert a little bit that way.

Speaker 23 You know, he's got these interests.

Speaker 22 Appreciation of art.

Speaker 23 Arts and paintings and all that.

Speaker 23 And he's working this

Speaker 23 tedious

Speaker 23 existence when he's got this, you know, he really wants to do something else.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And I guess that's what the connection with Irving is, right? He finds somebody who's

Speaker 23 a kindred spirit. Yeah.

Speaker 22 So anybody who's severed on the show, any character has the outie and the innie.

Speaker 22 And you've got to, in season two, we're talking about episode six in this episode of the podcast, which is the dinner, the dinner with Fields. Yeah.
And so like in that dinner scene, you and...

Speaker 22 John are kind of meeting. You've come to see him because he came knocking at your door and you you know that he is any new year any, but then you invite him to dinner at your house with your husband.

Speaker 22 And there's an energy that's there between you and him that is not burnt-irving on the inside, but there's something there.

Speaker 23 Yeah, well, there's also the element of you say to your wife, hello, I'd like you to meet my girlfriend.

Speaker 7 Exactly. Let's have dinner.

Speaker 23 Right. You know, maybe not a good idea.

Speaker 21 Fields is tending the ham.

Speaker 32 I hope you like a cumin glaze.

Speaker 33 Oh, yes, of course.

Speaker 32 Do you not?

Speaker 23 No, I do.

Speaker 21 Attila?

Speaker 32 Yes, Attila.

Speaker 34 Did you just ask about the glaze? Oh, I did. Well, don't.

Speaker 34 I've already put it on.

Speaker 32 I was gonna say, we also have corn.

Speaker 7 Oh, yes.

Speaker 33 We could feed him a pile of loose corn.

Speaker 7 Oh,

Speaker 35 what your any ever saw in this Philistine

Speaker 32 is beyond me.

Speaker 7 Fields, I presume.

Speaker 33 Yes.

Speaker 7 Irving. Irving.

Speaker 32 Yes.

Speaker 35 Welcome back to our home.

Speaker 7 Yes, I'm sorry about the

Speaker 23 last time.

Speaker 7 I'm sure that felt quite invasive.

Speaker 33 Nonsense.

Speaker 35 What's mine's yours.

Speaker 21 And you've brought wine.

Speaker 22 What's so interesting to me in this scene is that the relationship between you and Fields is obviously complicated. And he's, you can tell he's jealous that you guys have a thing on the inside.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 Well, I introduce my boyfriend to my husband. Right.
This is dangerous. Right.

Speaker 22 And it's interesting. It's like, what's the motivation there, right? Why are you doing that in your relationship with your husband? There's obviously some stuff going on.

Speaker 22 You don't want him to drink as much. We see that he like, right, he hits the wine a little bit too much.
Yeah. It is fascinating because

Speaker 22 what it shows me is that even, you know, there's still a connection no matter what between these guys, even if you don't know what was happening on the inside between you and John.

Speaker 22 And that's, you know, to me, kind of the core of the show is this exploration of the two sides of ourselves and integrating those. You know, what, what, what do we need from each side of ourselves?

Speaker 22 Can you separate yourself from your emotions? You know, can you separate from your past experiences?

Speaker 22 You know, I talked to a veteran who saw the show and really connected with the show because he had experienced PTSD

Speaker 22 and he was really fascinated with the idea of severing from memories and how that could possibly help people who have PTSD.

Speaker 23 Oh, sure. If we could just move past things

Speaker 7 sometimes.

Speaker 23 You know, the stuff that that we carry around and stuff that happens to us when we were kids that got in our way, you know, stuff that we carry, it would be nice to have that ability to just throw it out the window

Speaker 23 and move on.

Speaker 22 Yeah. You know, do you need to face that stuff and process it, or can you just cut it off and not?

Speaker 23 Well, I suppose that's what religions try to do. You know, you go to confession, you get it off your chest, you start a new day.

Speaker 22 Yeah, when Fields brings up the religion and the dinner, and he says that basically you got severed so that they could have a chance at saving your soul, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 The sermon that day is about severance, which was still very new at the time.

Speaker 33 And the pastor says, as if he'd been listening to our conversation,

Speaker 35 he said, the church's stance is that Enis are complete individuals

Speaker 33 with souls

Speaker 35 that can be judged separately from their Aati.

Speaker 32 So an Inni

Speaker 23 can go to heaven whilst the Aati burns.

Speaker 35 We're not zealots, I swear.

Speaker 35 But we

Speaker 33 figured that if it were true, it

Speaker 35 may be a way for part of Bert to

Speaker 35 oh, you know.

Speaker 22 You basically got severed because you went to hear the pastor speaking about severance.

Speaker 22 And what we get the idea is that Bert has done some things on the outside that perhaps were not on the up and up, the darker side of his personality, and that this severed side of Bert could possibly go to heaven.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 And to be able to start over again is marvelous.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 And to forgive yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 22 That's my dad always used to like Yom Kippur

Speaker 22 in the Jewish religion because you go there and you atone for your sins and you,

Speaker 23 you know, you did things that didn't always work out, but now it's a new day, you move on.

Speaker 23 And that

Speaker 23 would be terrific.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 To be able, you know, every day is another day.

Speaker 22 Yeah. But the reality also for people with these traumatic memories are expensive.
How can you?

Speaker 23 How can you? You know, some people have stuff that they can't forget. Yeah.

Speaker 23 And that's torture.

Speaker 22 Are you religious at all?

Speaker 23 I'm not religious, but I do,

Speaker 23 I am afraid of God.

Speaker 23 And maybe Bert is too.

Speaker 23 Wow.

Speaker 22 All right, man. This is great.
Thank you for doing this.

Speaker 7 I know it was fun. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 7 Wow.

Speaker 36 I mean, before we get into recapping the rest of the episode, I just have to say that was amazing.

Speaker 22 Yeah, it was so cool to be able to talk to Chris. I love him so much, and I've been such a fan for so long.
So it was really great to talk to him.

Speaker 7 Unbelievable.

Speaker 37 Well, well done, Ben.

Speaker 12 All right.

Speaker 14 So we have heard what's going on with Burt Nerving this episode. Let's talk about what everyone else is up to.

Speaker 25 We should start with Dylan's Innie and Gretchen, who are back together in the visitation suite.

Speaker 12 That's right.

Speaker 38 I sometimes wonder if you're just not happy.

Speaker 35 I'm sure it's not that.

Speaker 7 Because, like,

Speaker 22 you know, I mean,

Speaker 7 here

Speaker 35 with you, I'm super happy.

Speaker 23 I just, like,

Speaker 35 want to hear about all my offspring and

Speaker 35 stare at your face.

Speaker 7 Sorry, that was weird. No,

Speaker 26 it was really sweet.

Speaker 38 I like it.

Speaker 21 I like this.

Speaker 39 I wish we could really be together. Like,

Speaker 21 all the time.

Speaker 7 I mean, we are,

Speaker 7 aren't we?

Speaker 7 You and him are.

Speaker 7 But I'm not.

Speaker 22 Wow. Those seagulls in the distance fluttering around and music.
It's really scary, isn't it?

Speaker 24 It is.

Speaker 26 Where did the idea for the seagull sound come from?

Speaker 22 The seagull sound came from the backdrop that we had painted that's behind them. It's sort of like a Museum of Natural History painted

Speaker 22 diorama vibe with fake, you know, grass, like tall grass. And in the background, you see there's a seagull.
So we thought, why not, you know, Lumen would be going for the full experience.

Speaker 28 Sure.

Speaker 16 It's such a relaxing, soothing sound.

Speaker 1 I get it.

Speaker 22 Yeah. It's the old security room.
They totally just, they just gave it a facelift, you know?

Speaker 22 I think that's one of the really more fun, ominous, weird things in season two is that sort of the revamping of the old scary rooms into nice, warm, happy places, supposedly.

Speaker 18 Yeah, it's just so great seeing Dylan so happy and talking about his feelings and experiencing them, experiencing love for the first time. But also Merit is so wonderful.

Speaker 8 And like when they go in for the hug, he once asks for a hug and you see her kind of take this moment right before their hug where she's going through her own experience of this is so weird, but so sweet and getting to sort of start over with her husband and still having these feelings.

Speaker 15 There's so much going on here.

Speaker 17 It's just kind of fascinating to watch.

Speaker 22 Yeah, well, the whole episode is very much about the relationships, the relationship between Gretchen and Dylan, Mark and Helie, Burt and Irving.

Speaker 22 I think if there was a theme for this episode, it would be people connecting. I'm not going to say hooking up, but there is, you know, there's a lot of romanticness happening in this episode.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And I I think it was actually really fun to have an episode like that where it really focused on these core relationships.

Speaker 22 And the Dylan and Gretchen storyline is just such a uniquely severance type of story because you can't do that really in any other show.

Speaker 22 And I think that's when we're looking at the story, we're always looking at what are situations that you could only do with this setup.

Speaker 22 And I think the idea of Dylan and Gretchen having basically kind of an affair on his Audi.

Speaker 18 I was going to ask, is it an affair?

Speaker 36 Is that what this is?

Speaker 22 To me, that's what it feels like.

Speaker 22 It's almost like, it's like she's going to visit a guy in prison and she's having conjugal visits or something with this guy.

Speaker 22 I mean, they're not sleeping together, but it's sort of this, I mean, it is very prison-like.

Speaker 22 I mean, even in episode three, you know, when she first comes in, she's got like the little clear plastic pouch that they give her,

Speaker 22 which is a thing they do in prison so that, you know, they can see through what you're bringing in and out.

Speaker 22 And I think that's what I think is so interesting about this storyline is that it seems like they're really developing a bond.

Speaker 22 And then we immediately go afterwards to Audi Dylan at home, and she's not telling him what's going on.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And she's wrestling with it. She's keeping it from him.
But she's really attracted to this version of Dylan that is the less, you know, he doesn't have the weight of the world on him.

Speaker 22 He doesn't have all the outside problems that are definitely affecting their relationship.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And the most important thing in the world to him is her.

Speaker 18 He is just smitten and is completely in love with her.

Speaker 8 You know, you can see in Merritt's performance just how good that feels.

Speaker 4 And there's just so much going on there.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And for Dylan, it's great because Dylan is finally realizing there's a world beyond perks and there's a world beyond

Speaker 22 finger traps and caricatures. And it's really the extension of what was started at the end of season one when he says, I want to know my kids.

Speaker 22 And this is him getting, you know, really in a manipulative way by Milchik, who has decided to let him have this as a way of, I think, somehow dividing him from the others, keeping this secret.

Speaker 22 And that's working too, by the way, which we saw play out in episode five and the tension between Mark and Dylan. And he's not sharing this with them.

Speaker 22 But personally, for him, it's he's, you know, he's literally falling in love and he's understanding what a human relationship is.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Oh, Dylan's been compromised since episode one.

Speaker 1 Milchik really got in there right away and knew that this would work.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 22 But yet I'm also kind of happy for Dylan that he's

Speaker 22 feeling this, you know, and it's and to see Zach sort of embody him growing as a person is really cool. Yeah.
And then like, meanwhile, you know, Mark and Helly are,

Speaker 22 you know, working out their stuff. I think Mark's been trying to reconcile how he feels about the fact that he slept with Helena, but also you tell her, right?

Speaker 24 Yeah, I think we should talk about that scene.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 21 He threatened you as I was leaving in the elevator. They're trying to intimidate us, divide us, and also so that we won't work together because they know what will happen if we do.

Speaker 41 I'm gonna go get that map.

Speaker 5 Helen, we shared vessels.

Speaker 5 What's up?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 we

Speaker 5 had uh sex.

Speaker 7 Okay

Speaker 41 you went

Speaker 41 like

Speaker 41 like at a wellness session?

Speaker 21 No, not

Speaker 21 Miss Casey, it was uh

Speaker 21 at the retreat

Speaker 35 in your tent.

Speaker 35 Oh,

Speaker 35 yeah

Speaker 35 Oh.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Milchuk sort of forces Mark's hand there with the threat in the elevator.

Speaker 18 If he's going to use that as a threat, then Mark just figures he should just, he should tell her anyway it's the right thing to do.

Speaker 18 But Milchuk seems to assume that he's going to want to keep it from her.

Speaker 27 So for that reason and others, in the bathroom stall, he tells her that

Speaker 13 they shared vessels.

Speaker 22 I also like how Uta shot that scene in the stall, in the bathroom stall.

Speaker 22 You know, there are so few spaces that we haven't shot in the MDR because it's just basically that room, the kitchenette, and the bathroom.

Speaker 22 And we've explored a lot of different ways to shoot things and even in the bathroom. But she figured out a blocking with U2 and a way of shooting that in the stall that I thought was really elegant.

Speaker 22 And actually, it's one of my favorite-looking scenes in the show.

Speaker 8 I love it too.

Speaker 13 And I love how isolated Helie looks and feels.

Speaker 28 Yeah.

Speaker 18 And you can see physically Britt, once she actually gets that information, sort of backing up, even though there's nowhere to go. It's such a violation.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And I think that was Uda as a director is really great with actors.
And

Speaker 22 I think really looking at that scene from Helly's perspective, you know, of how to process that and the moments afterwards where she's kind of walking the halls and, you know, thinking about it and turning it in her head and comes to terms with what she feels.

Speaker 22 And I thought Britt did an amazing job with that, too, in terms of just internally seeing her at that.

Speaker 22 And then editorially, the way that we're sort of, we start to intercut Gretchen and Dylan coming together as, you know, Dylan asks for a hug from her and we start to feel there's more between the two of them.

Speaker 22 And as they start to come in and really have physical contact. At the same time, Helly's there thinking about her first kiss with Mark in season one.

Speaker 22 And as that's happening and as they're finally getting to the point where they connect, something goes off for Helly in her head where she realizes: hey, you know what?

Speaker 22 Helena had this, but I want it because that's how I feel about you.

Speaker 32 Look, I am so sorry.

Speaker 5 I can't even imagine what it must be like to.

Speaker 38 You thought it was me.

Speaker 35 100%.

Speaker 35 Which means you wanted to with me.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 42 What sucks is that she got to have that and I didn't.

Speaker 38 That she used me to check my friends, used my body to get close to you, that she dresses me in the morning like I'm a baby,

Speaker 38 that she controls me and this company and all of us. It's disgusting.

Speaker 35 Do you want me to, like, describe

Speaker 21 what happened? Like, I feel like you have every right.

Speaker 41 No, no, no, I don't want her memory.

Speaker 41 Okay.

Speaker 41 I want my own.

Speaker 32 Would you like that?

Speaker 13 I love that.

Speaker 18 I thought that was such a cool. I remember reading that scene and being like, yeah, that's such a place of strength for her.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And that was something we talked a lot about with Bo Willeman when he came in and working on our season.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Bo is one of our writers and executive producers for season two.

Speaker 27 Yeah.

Speaker 22 And I remember that was a thought that came from him that was really a logical thought and a very emotionally grounded idea for, you know, when you're thinking about how do these characters react to one another.

Speaker 22 Besides the mystery element of the show or the weirdness element of the show or any of that stuff, at the core, it's about these characters who we're trying to be with and track and believe.

Speaker 22 And it was his thought that, you know, she would want to have that for herself that I think really makes that scene so special because it's surprising.

Speaker 22 And I think maybe as a viewer, I'm thinking, I thought about this when we were putting it together.

Speaker 22 It's like, wow, this might, I hope this works for people because it seems unexpected to me that we would have had Mark and Helena sleep together in episode four and then Helly and Mark sleep together in episode six.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And that might not be expected.
And all of a sudden people are getting together a lot more. But for me, it felt very organic in that this would be what Helie would want.

Speaker 22 And these two people do have these feelings for each other.

Speaker 22 And the fact that she knows that she had that connection with him and she really wanted that was something that felt, okay, yeah, that's like kind of like unexpected to see, but yet totally believable to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because she and Mark were falling in love with each other and Helena decided to interrupt that and take it for her, steal it.

Speaker 18 And yes, Bo really was instrumental and really great with Mark and Helie's stuff and sort of from that clearing of the decks in episode four, really terrific with figuring out a way to get this relationship back on track and the direction to push it in.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And it's also something, you know, talk about like season two and doing things we hadn't done before.

Speaker 22 It was ground that I was very trepidatious about stepping on in terms of we're going to a place place we hadn't seen on the show before, characters sleeping together and not wanting to do the cliche version of that or the, you know, the bad version of it, but yet also not be afraid to follow that

Speaker 22 line because it's a natural progression, but it's also something we'd never really. We'd never really done before.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 8 And it was really important to Britt and I, along with you and Uda and our NMC coordinator, to come up with these two different

Speaker 4 love scenes with the two of the same people

Speaker 8 and make them very different.

Speaker 16 And they are very different, but they're both really beautiful in their own way.

Speaker 22 You know, we had shot episode four already.

Speaker 22 So when Uta approached the episode six love scene, she was able to look at what we had done and she came up with her own language for that, which is also, I think, one of the most elegant scenes in the show.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 22 The way that she filmed that between the two of you and the realness and the closeness and the beauty through the sort of the tent that you make for yourselves out of the plastic tarps that are over the unused carols and desks in there.

Speaker 22 And it's really beautiful. I do have to bring up, because we're talking about it, that the love scene in episode four, what happened,

Speaker 22 I think I should Isaac.

Speaker 22 Is it okay to talk about that?

Speaker 28 Yeah, it's it's the floor is yours.

Speaker 22 So, I was directing you know the love scene in the tent in episode four, and Jessica, our cinematographer, said to me, I think maybe you should operate the camera for this scene because it's going to be very intimate and close, and you're going to know what you want.

Speaker 22 And, you know, it's going to be handheld, or so you should get in there and kind of do it that way for the actors. And what did you think?

Speaker 24 I was really when you kind of told us it's just going to be the three of us in there, it was a relief because love scenes are always awkward, but that made it just easier and just less to worry about, you know.

Speaker 22 Right. At least that's what you thought.

Speaker 28 Because

Speaker 22 I get in there with the camera. And so it's a tent.
And the tent is, we had it on a stage, on the sound stage. We're in the tent, and the tent has an air mattress, right?

Speaker 22 The set has an air mattress that you guys are on. That's right.
That's part of the set is like, you know, that the tents had like lumen air mattresses.

Speaker 22 So I don't know if you've ever stepped on an air mattress, but they're hard to get your bare, you know, it's hard to get your balance on. So we, so,

Speaker 22 well, when you're holding a camera, a heavy camera, and you're not a professional camera operator,

Speaker 7 it is.

Speaker 22 So we, you know, clothes set, quiet, intimacy coordinator. Everybody's doing everything right.
And it's very.

Speaker 22 you know, very, very intense and quiet. And it's like, okay, you know, roll camera.

Speaker 22 And I go in there with the camera and you guys are there on the mattress, and it's just the light from the heater, and it's really beautiful.

Speaker 22 The shot's beautiful, and I'm standing there, and I'm like, now I'm like, starting, you guys are starting to do it, and I'm starting to move around, trying to be motivated by what I'm, you know, seeing in the scene.

Speaker 22 And then I want to go in closer, and I close, go in closer, and I'm stepping forward, and I step on the air mattress, and I literally fall on top of the two of you

Speaker 22 with my camera

Speaker 24 to paint the picture a little bit.

Speaker 8 I was laying down and Britt was on top of me at this point.

Speaker 20 And

Speaker 9 suddenly she just like falls right on top of me and Ben is on top of her, just like, oh, oh, geez.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 11 the three of us are like in a pile suddenly.

Speaker 22 It was so ridiculous. And here I am trying to be like Mr.
Cool Director Guy. And I've just become like Klutzi Ben falling on top of two acts.
It was so embarrassing.

Speaker 36 Honestly, it felt like something from a Ben Stiller movie.

Speaker 12 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 22 I can't escape my Ben Stiller-ness, even when I try.

Speaker 11 Your character is a cinematographer, and it's a romantic comedy.

Speaker 22 Yeah, that's not Ben Doe, it's the

Speaker 8 yeah, we have to come up with a new name for this guy, yeah.

Speaker 22 Klutzo, Klutso, the cameraman.

Speaker 2 Um, it was so funny, and I did not

Speaker 22 operate anymore for the rest of the shoot.

Speaker 22 All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back.

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Speaker 22 That coming together of Mark and Helie is so satisfying to see that you guys are back on track with each other and connected.

Speaker 22 And, you know, at the same time, we're also then going to the outside world and we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and kind of literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at Lumen.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Which is right. Like the first sign of reintegration really starting to maybe go.
kick in more or go awry or just be out of your control.

Speaker 22 You sort of flip out on rigabi and you, and you're also getting hungry, which is a side effect of the reintegration. And you just storm out and you go to the Chinese restaurant.

Speaker 22 And that's where we have this, you know, incredible sort of,

Speaker 22 we always like called it the heat scene.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Mark Friedman, who is really digging into this scene, also one of our writers and executive producers, coined the heat scene.

Speaker 4 I remember hearing about it long before it happened.

Speaker 20 We always talked about it being the heat scene.

Speaker 22 And the heat being the movie, the Michael Mann movie, the scene where Pacino and De Niro meet for the only time in that movie. And, you know, the audience has been waiting for that moment.

Speaker 22 And we thought, well, this is kind of this moment where, you know, Helena and Audi Mark are meeting for the first time. And what is that going to be about?

Speaker 22 And I thought you guys did an amazing job with that scene. And the writing of the scene, I think, is really, really interesting.

Speaker 22 And there's so much under the surface and so many levels to what you're experiencing with her and what she wants from you. It's really interesting.

Speaker 38 It never should have happened. And it never will again.

Speaker 41 Yeah, you should be sorry. sorry.

Speaker 34 Really?

Speaker 41 I'm kidding. Okay.
You're clearly not dumb.

Speaker 7 I don't know.

Speaker 38 You should meet him sometime.

Speaker 19 Your father?

Speaker 32 Sure, why not?

Speaker 5 And you want to take me home to dad already?

Speaker 38 Yeah, I think it's finally time.

Speaker 41 Okay.

Speaker 19 Sure, let's do it.

Speaker 41 He'd be the first.

Speaker 38 So no pressure. Yeah, none whatsoever.

Speaker 27 I love this scene.

Speaker 20 It was fun to do, and it was just fun to kind of get this new dynamic between Britt and I and kind of figure out what it would be. And it ended up being kind of having this charge to it.

Speaker 9 Like these two people, like...

Speaker 18 You know, Audi Mark is scared shitless of this person and has no concept of who she is to him on the inside, but she does, obviously, and she knows they've actually slept together.

Speaker 13 So there's so much going on, but the fact that there ended up being this almost flirtatious charge to the scene was something that just really started happening while we were shooting it and felt really interesting.

Speaker 22 And you sort of dip into it and then you go away from it and then you give into it and then you're.

Speaker 4 Well, she starts fucking with me by like getting Gemma's name wrong.

Speaker 8 Right.

Speaker 22 What do you think that's about?

Speaker 8 Oh, I think she's 100% fucking with me.

Speaker 13 Just toying, seeing what reaction she could get.

Speaker 22 It's so interesting. She gets one.
It's so interesting because it's almost like some sort of a manipulation that Milchik would do on the inside, you know? But it's Telena doing it on the outside.

Speaker 16 But maybe she's not, you know, Britt and I never talked about that or any of it.

Speaker 12 Maybe it's sincere. I don't know.

Speaker 24 But that's how I took it then.

Speaker 22 I think it's yeah. And when you think of all that's sort of the baggage in that scene, it's like earlier that same day, you both slept with each other.

Speaker 27 Yeah.

Speaker 37 But neither of us are aware of that.

Speaker 22 Neither of you are aware of that, but she's aware that she slept with you and you're not aware that you slept with her.

Speaker 37 With either of her.

Speaker 22 Either of her. And that to me, what's so interesting to me about that is like, again, it's the question of like, what permeates? What permeates? What is, you know, what pheromones are there?

Speaker 22 What sort of, you know, what's the memory there? What is the connection? What's the love feeling? What's the, all those things? There's just so much going on to,

Speaker 22 I'm sure as actors, there's just so much there to have just sort of waiting to like call up or, you know, play with.

Speaker 27 Yeah, yeah, that's part of what was interesting about it is that there was something there

Speaker 18 and it was entirely different from whatever connection or flirtation exists in either of the versions.

Speaker 16 that we had done before.

Speaker 13 It was like this new,

Speaker 7 weirder, more lived in thing because both of these people have lived a lot longer than the Innies and the grown-ups more. It was just weird.

Speaker 22 And we shot that at a great restaurant called Eng's up in Kingston, New York. It's a beautiful restaurant.

Speaker 13 Great exterior, too.

Speaker 22 Yeah. And then you're all freaked out.
You come out.

Speaker 22 That sort of like spurs you to say, yes, let's go and let's do the sort of like the souped-up version of reintegration where she's going to, you know, she's going to inject the chip and really take it to the next level.

Speaker 22 And then then Devin comes over while you're feeling the effects of this. And, you know, the ending of the episode is really you basically going unconscious.

Speaker 22 And we don't know what's going to happen to you.

Speaker 27 Yeah.

Speaker 13 There's a seizure.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 22 Yeah. I mean, it's gone as far.
And for us as an audience, we remember what happened to Petey outside of the gas station.

Speaker 22 And then we're also left at the end with, you know, after the Burt and Irving dinner, where it kind of all comes out.

Speaker 22 You know, it's just interesting thematically in this episode, I think it's all the relationships sort of, you know, the relationship confrontation stuff is happening.

Speaker 22 And then, yeah, Bert and Irving kind of realize that there's something going on there between them two.

Speaker 7 Same thing. 100%.

Speaker 22 And we're left with that last moment of Bert at the door where we don't quite know what Audi Bert is up to. And it's great because Chris Walking can just give a look.

Speaker 22 And I think when Chris is looking out that door at him, I don't know what Chris is thinking. He's probably thinking, I'm Bugs Bunny.

Speaker 40 Yeah, I was just going to say, it was Bugs Bunny.

Speaker 22 But Chris Walking, Bugs Bunny can be chilling.

Speaker 22 All right, this is great, man.

Speaker 25 Yeah, this has been great.

Speaker 15 But we've got one final treat for listeners this episode.

Speaker 13 We got to talk with the great Sarah Bach, who plays Miss Wong.

Speaker 20 So let's go talk with Lumen's new deputy floor manager of the Sefford Floor, Sarah Bach.

Speaker 40 Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 45 Thank you so much. I'm so excited to see you guys.

Speaker 28 Same. Yeah.

Speaker 22 Could not be happier to have you here.

Speaker 40 How's life for you these days?

Speaker 45 It's pretty good. It's pretty crazy.
It's crazy that the show's coming out and midterms are next week and everything.

Speaker 26 Yeah, you're in your first year of college and the show just came out a few weeks ago. What has it been like?

Speaker 45 Honestly, it's been pretty chill because when it first came out, I was really sick. So like I didn't see anyone.

Speaker 45 But like now that I've been out, my friends have been really supportive and like they threw me like a little surprise premiere party, which was so sweet.

Speaker 18 I saw that on Instagram.

Speaker 8 It was so

Speaker 7 cool.

Speaker 45 No, that made my week.

Speaker 45 But yeah, everyone's been pretty chill about it, which I appreciate.

Speaker 22 That's great. I heard you when you were doing the mic check talking about choreographing something.
Are you working on a show there right now?

Speaker 45 Oh, yeah. There's like one of the theater boards, it's directed towards TYA, like theater for young audiences.
So they're putting on frog and toad right now, and I'm assistant choreographing that.

Speaker 45 So this morning we were working out some of the routines and teaching it to the cast, which is really really fun.

Speaker 28 That's great. Yeah.

Speaker 22 Well, you're awesome in the show. When we found you, I was so happy because Dan had this idea to have this character, Miss Wong, and that she would be a young person.

Speaker 22 And we were, you know, thinking about who she could be and what she could be like.

Speaker 22 And it's that thing with any actor when you're looking for somebody to play a role, when somebody walks in and they just have a special quality that feels so right.

Speaker 22 And I wonder what your memory is of coming in to audition for the show.

Speaker 45 Oh my gosh, I was so scared. I don't know if you guys, if you remember like my first time meeting you, we were both testing for COVID because that was still going on and it was at my final callback.

Speaker 45 And I just remember being so terrified to meet you, but also like so excited. But no, I was so terrified.

Speaker 37 And how did you hear about it? Because you don't live in like Hollywood or New York or anything, right?

Speaker 45 No, I'm from North Carolina. So I got a self-tape from my manager and I just put myself on tape and hoped for the best.

Speaker 22 Cool. And then you came in and you read in person with us, I remember.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 22 the callback, did you feel like when you walked out of it, did you feel like, okay, that went well?

Speaker 22 Because I know when I've auditioned for things in the past, sometimes you have a feeling when you, you know, feels like it went well that like, oh, maybe this could work out.

Speaker 45 Yeah, I remember the in-person one I had a lot of fun at and I thought that went really well.

Speaker 45 Except you did bring me back into the room at one point and you asked me to improvise, which I remember terrified me because all the other girls, they're like, oh my gosh, he had us improvise.

Speaker 45 I was like, that sucks for them. Like, I'm happy I went first, thank God.
Like, I guess I didn't even think that you guys could possibly make me do that.

Speaker 45 And the second I thought that, then pulled me back.

Speaker 45 But other than that, I thought it went pretty well.

Speaker 11 So we all know that Ben is just so mean, right?

Speaker 7 So that was your first taste of how mean he can be. Making you improvise.

Speaker 22 Improvise.

Speaker 22 it was with that water toy and i didn't know what it was so i was so confused oh right and boy i mean and then the water toy became i mean it's really like you really mastered that that thing had you ever seen one of those before

Speaker 7 no i'd never seen it because they're really all we had sarah back before phones and technology back in the caveman days when we grew up that's that's what you played with no i love them they were really fun yeah i just remember you showing up on set your first day and just being so impressed with you right out of the gate.

Speaker 13 You were so on it.

Speaker 2 You were dialed in, so funny, relaxed.

Speaker 45 Oh, wait, that's so sweet. I did not feel that way.
I felt like I was chaotic that first day and stressed.

Speaker 45 But getting to see what you guys are doing, I was like, I need to, I need to try and be on their level and fake it till I make it.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I think we're all faking it until we make it. Pretty much.
But you, you were very, I would not say the perception for me was you were not chaotic or frazzled.

Speaker 22 You kind of just were very comfortable in your skin.

Speaker 22 And there's a sort of a stillness to Miss Wong and, you know, this sort of interesting sort of layers to you because you can seem incredibly innocent, but then also there are moments where you seem like you're very knowing and, you know, sometimes authoritative too.

Speaker 45 Yeah, I remember on my first day when you had me do that ballgame scene and you had me stare at Adam for a super long time. That was when I started to realize like how scary she could be.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Figure out more about the character.

Speaker 16 You're intimidating.

Speaker 37 You really are.

Speaker 22 And were.

Speaker 22 By the way, that's not an easy thing to do, I think, as an actor, which is, you know, just ask somebody to really not do anything other than just be there in the moment and just look at someone.

Speaker 22 Because it can be incredibly revealing in a way. Yeah.
And both of you, that's one of my favorite moments in that first episode is really that energy between the two of you.

Speaker 22 And you just did not flinch at all.

Speaker 22 What were you thinking when you were staring at Adam like that?

Speaker 45 I was thinking, oh my God, this has been like, oh my gosh, I've been staring for a really long time.

Speaker 7 She just stopped staring.

Speaker 45 Yeah, it was scary. And I remember you came up to me a lot and you would be like, I don't know what you're thinking right now, but keep thinking it.

Speaker 22 Yeah, no, and that's the other thing. Like, you don't want to mess with something that's going well, right, with an actor.
You don't want to tell them something that they become self-conscious of.

Speaker 22 You want to talk a little bit about Milchik and your relationship with Mr. Milchik? There's obviously it's a very layered relationship that evolves.

Speaker 22 Let's take a listen to that scene where you guys talk about Milchik's performance review.

Speaker 39 I had my performance review yesterday.

Speaker 45 How did it go?

Speaker 39 Many valid concerns were raised, which I look forward to addressing.

Speaker 38 I'm glad for you.

Speaker 39 I feel I should remind you:

Speaker 39 you cannot graduate from this fellowship until I have deemed you wintertide material.

Speaker 39 This will mean using your time well, focusing on your own duties,

Speaker 39 and eradicating from your essence childish folly.

Speaker 45 I understand,

Speaker 45 sir.

Speaker 39 I shall be busy for the rest of the day. I trust you can steward the floor in my stead.

Speaker 41 Of course.

Speaker 7 Good.

Speaker 39 You may sit at your regular desk.

Speaker 45 Thank you, Mr. Milchik.

Speaker 18 It's such an interesting relationship between you two.

Speaker 26 It feels like there is some sort of power struggle happening there.

Speaker 45 Yeah, they definitely have a very interesting dynamic because, like, he's her boss, but also she kind of disagrees maybe with what he's doing a little bit, and she has her own opinions.

Speaker 45 So, doing those scenes with Trammell was so much fun because I mean he's terrifying when he's Mr. Milchick.

Speaker 45 So getting to just like stare at him and like challenge him a little bit, that was that was really fun.

Speaker 22 Yeah, that's my experience working with him is he's the most incredibly warm, sweet, funny, laughing presence, but you guys are so good together.

Speaker 22 I love the scene in the supply closet in episode five when you're getting ready for the funeral for Irving. And that little power struggle that's happening there between the two of you is really

Speaker 22 fun to watch.

Speaker 45 Yeah, I loved all my scenes with Trammell. Those were my favorites.
He's so amazing.

Speaker 22 And for episode four,

Speaker 22 what was your experience like when we went up into the mountains to shoot that scene? Because, I mean, you had to learn how to play the theremin for this episode. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Like for a while. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 45 I remember having a bunch of theremin lessons. My theremin teacher, Jennifer, she was fantastic.
She just really drilled me on like the technique, which hopefully I got right.

Speaker 45 Theremin players don't come at me, but

Speaker 45 yeah, we just, that's the only song I know how to play, the song that's in the show. I learned how to play like the severance theme, but that's it.
And me, we just incredible.

Speaker 7 That was cool.

Speaker 11 You can play the severance theme on the theremin.

Speaker 45 That, yeah, it was fun.

Speaker 22 I mean, and for people, we talked about it in episode four, but the theremin is like an instrument where you don't touch it. It's just you're moving your hands through space.

Speaker 45 Yeah, and you can't really use muscle memory because, like, depending on the environment, like the wavelengths change. I don't really know.
It's a weird instrument, but it's really fun.

Speaker 26 But then you almost get to play at Irving's funeral and he stops you.

Speaker 8 And I think we really see Miss Wong's.

Speaker 37 cockles go up there a little bit.

Speaker 17 She gets pretty pissed off.

Speaker 45 Yeah, she was told she was going to play and he went back on that agreement.

Speaker 7 How dare he? Bad move.

Speaker 22 So are your friends sort of like your friends who are throwing you a party? Like, is it strange to be in the show? Do you feeling like that it sort of affected your everyday life in any way?

Speaker 22 Or is it kind of like you're at school, you're doing your thing, people are cool, like you were saying, and you're just kind of going forward?

Speaker 45 Well, I was pretty intentional. Like coming in, I didn't want anyone to like really know.
So for the first few months, only two people knew.

Speaker 45 And then once it was like more announced, then everyone had like already gotten to know me. But I was, oh my gosh, two days ago, I was coming back from the gym.

Speaker 45 It's like a mile and a half away from the dining hall, and it started downpouring rain. And when I got to the dining hall, I was disgusting and like soaked in rain.

Speaker 45 And I got recognized for the first time by this kid, and he asked me for a picture.

Speaker 45 And it was so embarrassing. And then everyone else around him then caught on and they were all asking me for pictures.
I was like, are you guys sure?

Speaker 7 Like, this is not a great look right now.

Speaker 22 I'm going to say that's not the last time that's going to happen to you. This is my prediction

Speaker 22 in your life. Okay.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 22 be prepared. I think it's so awesome that, you know, that you're able to do what you're doing, going to school.
And you're just, I'm just so impressed with you since I first met you.

Speaker 22 And you're a joy to work with. And I just wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Speaker 45 Oh, thank you. I had so much fun making the show with both of you.

Speaker 1 Well done, Sarah.

Speaker 22 Yeah, and good luck on midterm, Sarah. I'm so glad that I am not taking that.

Speaker 10 Thank you. I'll need that.

Speaker 25 Yeah, if you need any any advice on studying, I'm here anytime.

Speaker 22 Were you a good student, Adam?

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 20 This has been such a terrific episode, but before we go, we got to make time for our friend Zach Cherry's favorite segment where we check in with him, and he has a prediction about what he thinks will happen in episode seven.

Speaker 20 So, Zach, we're doing this for you. We know it's important to you, so go ahead.

Speaker 22 hello again it's zach here that was an intense episode of severance and i'm here to tell you things are only going to get more intense won't that be fun next time on severance

Speaker 22 i have a feeling that mark's reintegration is going to go a little funky and actually

Speaker 22 It's going to be a real freaky Friday situation where he switches bodies with Rigabi and now he's a surgeon at the hospital. He doesn't have the skills.
Hijinks are going to ensue.

Speaker 22 It's going to be a real sharp pivot tonally for the show, but I think fans are going to be pretty excited with what happens.

Speaker 22 I have to say that's actually one of the best predictions he's ever had. It's really good.

Speaker 22 Because it actually, like, to me, thematically, maybe tonally is totally off Freaky Friday, but it does kind of thematically, to me, kind of work what the show could do.

Speaker 4 I love thinking about the sort of broad mid-aughts Lindsey Lowen version of Severance happening.

Speaker 27 I think that's a good idea.

Speaker 12 I just appreciate that Zach didn't end this one by encouraging people to reach out to us about various subjects.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I know. What is he talking about there? By the way, the next time on Severance makes me think of Next Time on Lonnie.
Do you remember that web series? It's from Lonnie.

Speaker 7 Oh, totally, with Alex.

Speaker 22 Yeah, Alex and Fanger and Dan Schemp. It's so funny.
It was like a show that you never saw the actual show. All you ever saw were the previews for next week on, and it would be some crazy thing.

Speaker 22 So I recommend that.

Speaker 20 I did an episode of that.

Speaker 7 Oh, you did?

Speaker 22 I did. You did so many cool web shows.

Speaker 7 All right, man. Cool.

Speaker 20 That is it for this episode. The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam.
We'll be back next week to talk about season two, episode seven.

Speaker 22 And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

Speaker 20 And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 20 The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

Speaker 22 If you like the show be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Speaker 22 Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese Dennis. This show is produced by Xandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott.

Speaker 22 This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Crusas and Davey Sumner.

Speaker 46 Show clips are courtesy of fifth season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.

Speaker 18 Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.

Speaker 22 And the team at Red Hour, John Lescher, Carolina Pesakov, Gian Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderudin, Aushwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker.

Speaker 20 And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

Speaker 22 We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Ben Stiller.

Speaker 20 And I'm Adam Scott.

Speaker 22 Thank you for listening.

Speaker 12 And remember to hang in there.

Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

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