S2E5: Trojan's Horse (with Michael Chernus)

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Let's get them over with. Hey, Adam.
Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's...
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Hey, Adam. Yeah.
Apparently a lot of people have been calling the hotline after watching episode four and

had some pretty strong opinions about it.

What?

Yeah.

And they left some messages.

Oh, can we listen to them?

Yeah.

If you haven't watched episode four, you probably shouldn't listen to these voicemails.

But for those of you who have, let's listen to a couple of them.

Get Ben Stiller on the phone.

We've got questions.

Hi, I just watched the episode of the show Severance called Blow is Hollow. Let's listen to know what is happening.
How could you... I'm also way more mad than this madness but i'm in an airbnb right now and we're in quiet hours and thirdly and probably most importantly um what the great stuff love the show i hope adam's having a good day uh praise care that's great well i love the energy and the oh yes the what the fuckness of everybody's reactions yeah it's amazing to hear people reacting rather than like reading reactions you know yeah and obviously it's a lot of stuff that happens in the episode that's probably it seems unexpected coming off of episode three in terms

of the Helly Helena reveal, which, you know, a lot of people had very strong feelings about and

different opinions. And, you know, knowing that that was coming, it's great to see how invested

people are in these characters the way we are, you know, and have we totally been living with

them for a long time. So yeah, what the fuck? What the fuck? Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.
I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.
Today, we're diving into the fifth episode of season two, which is titled Trojan's Horse. It was written by Megan Ritchie and directed by Sam Donovan.
And we have a really fun episode for everybody because we have the honor and privilege of talking to the most inspiring writer in all of Kier, Rick and Hale himself, the man who plays him, Michael Churnis. It's going to be great great So exciting Michael is the very very best And after we talk to Michael Ben and I will break down Some of our other favorite scenes From the episode And of course We're gonna talk to Zach Cherry We'll check in with him To see what he thinks will happen In next week's episode And okay you should know the drill By this point But in case you don here's the spoiler warning.
We'll be talking in depth about episode five of season two of Severance. So if you haven't watched that yet, please go do that before you listen.
It's going to be spoilers all over the place. I mean, like I said before, we are going to dive into this episode.
We're going to go deep. It's been so much fun to see how the people who watch the show are paying such close attention to it.
I mean, I know we've talked about this before, but it's crazy to me the level of scrutiny that people are looking at scenes with and freezing the frame and looking at details. And I just want to say, I appreciate so much how much thought people put into the show.
It's like, there's no better feeling when you're working on something to see that people are really, you know, like just digging in. And that shot that in episode two, the shot of everyone going into the elevator timed with episode one, like that really worked and people found it.
And I know how excited you and Sam were about that. Yeah.
It was literally maybe like an hour after the episode came out, somebody had put together a cut. Oh, is that right? Both scenes.
Yeah. And we had planned that out and Sam and I worked together and Jeff, our Richmond, our editor, we made sure that we edited it so that the timing worked.
And I'm just so relieved that it actually came out the way that we wanted. I remember Sam had the in-y version on set while we were shooting the out-y version.
Yeah, we were there and we each were coordinating and the episode's a beautiful looking episode. And I have to also shout out Susie Lavelle, who's our cinematographer on episode two.
And just beautiful composition, beautiful lighting. And it's the first all-out-y episode.
So it was definitely uncharted territory for us, right? Yeah, just that scene in particular, you see them at their lockers and stuff. That was really fun.
But also, yes, getting to really dive into their Audis is so fun. It's just fascinating getting to know them better.
And speaking of people in the outside world, today we have with us our very own Michael Chernus, who plays Rickon. Michael, first of all, thanks for standing by while we did all that just now on the Zoom as a silent audience.
What did you think of our intro and stuff? Oh my God. I thought it was really good.
You guys sound very professional. Oh my God.
Thank you so much. What a relief.
Because I kept on checking your reaction as we were talking about stuff, and I felt like you were either moderately amused or just sort of tolerating. Me too.
I thought he was super mad at us. Yeah.
Well, I am, but that's about other stuff, not about the intro. All right.
No, I thought that sounded great. Congrats on this podcast.
It's been so fun to follow along and listen at home. Oh, thanks, man.
I feel like Rickon should have his own podcast about the show. What do you think? I think he thinks he should have his own podcast for sure.
I don't know that he should. Don't give that man a microphone.
If there are podcasts in the severance world, I'll bet you anything Rickon has one. I think he had one, but now he's post podcast.
That's right. He's transcended.
Yeah, he's transcended podcast. That's right.
You know, Rickon is such an important element in terms of obviously the humor of the show, but he's more than that too. You know, he's, I don't know, tonally to me, like he kind of defines what the Audi world is in a way, this sort of like very bespoke world that Dan created in terms of just, I'm thinking about like the first episode of season one, the non-dinner dinner party.
That's so nice to hear. I mean, first of all, it's an honor to be a part of this show.
I mean, and that's not any kind of hyperbolic praise. Like I think this show is incredible and I am a fan of it first and foremost.
And when you're speaking about Rickon being this window into the Audi world, I think what's so cool is I think he's a representation of one subsect of the population. You know, like he is our way into like this sort of maybe more like erudite kind of group of people.
But, you know, I'm interested to see in other seasons how even more of that world gets fleshed

out because I think Rickon and his literati friends are just one section of our universe. And I'm interested to see who the anti-Rickon is in this world.
Yeah. And Rickon is such a unique character in the outside world because in the outie world, it tends to get smaller and more almost naturalistic.

And it's just a slightly different, almost tone, but it does feel like a separate world from the any world, certainly. And Rickon is a character who, it's such a specific, finely tuned performance that you give because you could see this character being pushed way too far in one direction or the other and not quite working.
But you're able to really ride this line between him being ridiculous sometimes, but still both feet being planted on the ground because you have to buy that he's a part of this sort of more grounded naturalistic world out there, but he's also sort of has this larger than life persona that he's really pushing out there. And he's married to this woman who's incredibly grounded and holding them both down.
Was there a balance there when you approach to the world? Oh, completely. And I feel like it's a balance that we're always trying to calibrate every time that I'm on set.
I mean, I think it's something Ben and I talked about a lot when I first came onto the show. And yeah, I think it's a bit tricky because he is sort of this larger than life character.
And I think even within a tone that is very grounded, you have to allow for those, you know, I certainly know people, my background is in the theater originally in New York City. And I know people who are very sort of big and almost foppish or clownish in their life and have a love and a facility for language and often sound a little affected.
I think in a great way, one thing he does is he maybe helps open up that outie world. You believe that he exists in that world, but he isn't like everybody else.
And he marches to the beat of his own drum. And that's cool.
We all have people in our lives who are a little odd or a little eccentric or a little annoying sometimes, but we love them. And yeah, I think one of the things that's hard for me with him is fighting the actor's impulse to want to be liked.
And I think that's an impulse that Rickon has too. But knowing that there are some people out there are going to be like, ugh, Rickon and his friends are so annoying.
And having to remember like, well, maybe that's a good thing that people are kind of put off by him at first. And then eventually the onion starts to get peeled back and you start to like discover, oh, there's more to him than that.
Or he has sensitivity, he has vulnerability. And so continuing to discover those ways in for the audience to see a different side of him is really what's been a fun challenge.
it's just fascinating and there's nothing that makes me laugh harder whenever we're working than rick in but also it's just so fascinating whenever we get that peak behind his sort of grandiosity like in the finale of season one where any mark and rick and have that moment outside where Rickon is kind of like, I know you think I'm a fool. And you kind of see his humanity, certainly, but you also see shades of these two guys that have known each other for a long time and maybe shift or change they've kind of gone through together.
It really is an incredible performance, the fact that you're able to do so many things at once. Well, right back at you.
I mean, I remember that night that we shot it. It was such a dance between us because we're holding so much.
You had so much going on of like any Mark meeting his idol, but all the other circumstances of the larger scene in that moment and trying to keep it together and not be found out. And so you had all that going on.
And then I had all the stuff that Rickon's going through going on. And so I think I love that scene so much.
And it's such a simple scene, but there's so much packed into it. I think that speaks to the tone of this show so precisely of trusting the audience that the audience is smart and that they're going to be watching and listening and knowing all that nuance that we don't have to play everything at once, right? There may be all of this stuff happening, but you as an actor can't do all those things.
You just have to be there and sort of listen and play the scene with your partner.

Yeah.

But maybe that idea though,

that Rickon wants to be liked as an actor,

I want to be liked.

You know,

you're right.

Like that instinct,

right?

When you play a part,

it's like,

you want,

you don't want people to think you're an asshole,

even if you're playing a character that sometimes can be like that.

And maybe that in a way works for you too. Like you're wanting people to like Rick and is also kind of what Rick and wants to.
That's a gift of the character. Yeah.
Is that those two things match. I mean, I think for me, one of the things is I've been in this business for a minute now is just a constant meditation on trying to let go of, of what the audience is going to think.
You know, like there are millions of people who will will see it. There'll be various responses to Rickon.
And so I can't control that. But what I can control is that I'm giving it as much dimensionality to him as possible, that I'm not considering him a joke, even if somebody else does.
Right. And by the way, that allows for the interpretation for an audience to see different aspects of the character.
and it comes down to also a really important part of the show, which is why is Devin with Rickon? Because we see a lot of the time, not the intimate, positive interaction between Devin and Rickon that must be there. That is the basis of their marriage.
We see- He's a generous, attentive lover. Is he? Well, that's what I was going to ask you.
What is it that Devin loves in Rickon that we don't see? You know, I can't speak to what for a sheep. Because they're an interesting couple.
They are an interesting couple. But that is one thing that surprises me when I see people on Reddit or whatever say, like, why are they together? I'm like, have you seen couples ever in the world? Like opposites attract.
Like there's so many people in my life that I'm like, how are they together? And it's like, well, you don't know what happens behind closed doors. And I don't even mean that like in terms of romantically, it's just like, it's a mystery why people fall in love with each other.
It's one of the great mysteries of the human race. You're like, why are you drawn to someone? And that in a way makes it even a more interesting and believable couple to me.
Me too. And I think, you know, he brings a lot of different things to the table that she doesn't possess and vice versa.
You know, I think she grounds him and he helps her like discover the more artistic, spontaneous, improvisational side. side.
And, side. And it's also that we might be just meeting them in a hard moment.
That's right. Long-term relationships, there are ups and downs, there are rifts, there are separations.
In any given day, there are a thousand different coming togethers and retreatings that happen, and we just see small windows into their life together. I remember early on having conversations with us here and then Dan and Jen as well, talking about the foursome of these two couples.
And when Gemma passed away, it was kind of this schism. It was this change.
There's this kind of dividing line. And Mark certainly went in his direction.
And Devin went to maybe take care of Mark. And Rickon had his own reaction.
And the relationship between Mark and Rickon at one point was probably different than we see it in the show. I mean, I certainly think so.
I think it was very different. And that's when there is loss,

when there is a great loss like that,

like a family member, there's the immediate impact, but then there are all those ripple

effects, right? And I mean, you know, when someone starts to have success and we can talk about

exactly how successful or not Rick is, but when in their own mind, they start to become famous

or whatever, what that does to, if in own mind, they start to become famous or whatever,

what that does to, if in my opinion, I feel like you're not reading my books and you're not taking my art seriously and like the pain that that causes for me. And I'm sure we can all speak to like when you start to have more notoriety, what that does to- Relationships.
Relationships. Yeah.
I also think in Rickon's work-life balance,

he went into his writing completely found some sort of comfort there probably i think you know rickin as a writer he is kind of in love with his own words and i mean what do you think of him as a writer because i feel like he is successful on some level in this world. And yet he also probably inflates his own success in his head.
It's such a tough thing. I don't think he's a great writer.
I think he's a genre writer, right? He's in this, within the realm of sort of a philosophical self-help book, he's good at doing that genre. And I think there is a lot of truth to some of his little sayings, but it certainly is not a rigorous craft for him.
I feel like the writing, it can be a little stream of consciousness. It is certainly true to who he is, which is a compliment, like you're getting the full Rickon.
But yeah, I think it's why on some level it appeals to the innies is there is, if you're this sort of pure, unjaded, uncynical, kind of almost childlike mind, he's saying these things that have a nugget of truth in them. But it's just all the trappings of the sort of pretension and the self-importance that go around it.
Yeah. I feel like you and Dan have this special, like you're a great mouthpiece for this certain side of Dan.
And I know how much he loves writing Rick and stuff. And you're the perfect sort of cipher for all of that.
Like you saying the hamburger waiter line and stuff like that it's just it's that's that belly laugh that feels so good. I love it so much.
And Rickon really just gets me every time. I mean, I love him so much.
And I know Dan does too. I just, for better or for worse, I feel like I get him and I really, I really care about him.
But I think at the same time, that's, I can also honestly make fun of him. I mean, he's ridiculous.
Can I ask, how are things going with Balfe? Yeah. Balfe is a disappointment.
I thought he was like raw clay that I could mold. And he's more just the clay is dried.
Too much of his own guy. Well, yeah.
I just have to explain

everything. How many Belfs have preceded Belf? Yeah.
He's Belf 12. Okay.
Rickon goes through

assistants, right? You just name them all Belf. Yeah.
They're all just Belf. Yeah.

Okay. Let's take a quick break and catch up on Rickon's latest version of the UUR.

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Visit IDTech.com and use code IDTech to save $150 on a week that's guaranteed to be a highlight of summer. Talking a little bit about Rickon's writing, in episode three, we see that Natalie shows up at your house, which to me is like a kind of a weird little chilling moment that all of a sudden she's just there talking to you and Devin discovers and she's kind of, you guys are kind of laughing together and it's very clear that she's offering you a chance to do a version of the book for Inies, the UUR.
And that sort of sets off this sort of trajectory here that we end up with in episode five in terms of Rickon kind of having to make some sort of a moral decision, I guess, right, about what he does with the book. Babe, it's the literal opposite of what you were saying before.
Okay. I see how you'd feel that way, but one point that Nat made was...
Nat, okay. She said that innies tend to thrive in an environment of structure.
And once that is established, then they are more open to self-expansion. So I am just trying to speak their language.
I know, but this sounds like Lumen's language. Well, it's a Trojan's horse.
If I can get my ideas to severed workers all across the world, it might beget a revolution. But these aren't your ideas.
These are not your ideas. And also...
And what? Okay, Lumen hurts people, you know that. And if you want to water down your work so they can use it for their fucking propaganda, then you're hurting people too.
Okay. It's completely a moral decision.
And I think it's such a great piece of writing to introduce this idea because it helps the audience really enter into that conundrum of Rickon, like this ego side of being like, oh, that's enticing. That would get my work out to so many more people.
If I'm a big deal in there, and those workies really are fans, that's great, being enticed by the fan base. But also this other part of him that knows that maybe this is a problematic decision, that wrestling with himself, I think is really interesting.
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting to see a little bit of the inner workings of the relationship with Devin there in that little sort of negotiation or moment or question where, you know, you basically put out to her that, you know, Hey, you know, you want me to take this moral stance, but also are you willing to give up the creature comforts that come along with the success that we have? Yeah.
I mean, I can relate to that as a working actor, you know, you have to make these decisions sometimes. I mean, not necessarily working for Lumen, but sometimes you're like, I have to take this money gig.
I have to take this job. You know, it's like I got offered this, you know, 24 episode police procedural or something, you know, and I have to go do it, honey.
Oh, but it's not Shakespeare in the Park. Okay.
Well. Yeah.
And these stances that were so easy to take before suddenly when faced with the kind of reality of something, it gets a little fuzzier and more dicey. Completely.
And I, you know, I don't know to what extent Rickon really understands how big of a star he is in the indie world, but this idea that he has this fan base, you know, like what that does for him, not just an opportunity to make money or to expand his reach, but just that there are finally people who really get him. Right.
Yeah. Any mark.
Any mark is his biggest fan. Can I ask Jen Tolick, just the greatest.
Can we ask about working with Jen?

Jen is the best. I mean, I loved y'all's episode with her.
She's extraordinary. She really is a singular talent.
You guys were talking on the podcast about how everything that comes out of her mouth just feels so real. And I couldn't agree more.
She's so smart. She's very funny.
and yet everything comes off so grounded

and so true to her

and yet it's so smart. She's very funny.
And yet everything comes off so grounded and so true to her. And yet it's a character.
It's such a funny blend. Like Devin feels like Jen, but also feels like Devin, if that makes sense, in the best way.
Did you guys talk before you started shooting the first time about your history? How do you approach being a believable married couple? That's a great question. We didn't know each other beforehand.
And if we remember, the first season was in the height of COVID times. So I think we met in the testing tent the first time, like in hazmat suits, basically, getting our COVID test to work.
And through our face shields, we're trying to discuss Rickon and Devin's- That That was hard, man. That was hard.
But I know it's been said before, but it really, I think, added to that dystopian feel of the show. I mean, for me, showing up and we couldn't hug each other and we could only take our masks off when the cameras were rolling and the poor crew was just covered head to toe in strange futuristic gear just, for me, it added to the strange severancy vibe of the show.
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Well, yeah, I mean, I do think just the casting somehow came together between you and Jen and Adam. It just, it worked off the bat with you guys.
And that also is something you don't really know. If you're directing something, making something, you have this idea like this seems like these people might be good together.
And that one reading they did together seemed really good, but you don't really know if it's going to gel and feel like something real. And it really did.
Like that was like something that is really like a gift that these people are just falling into this and really instinctually understanding how to connect. Yeah.
I mean, I didn't know you, Adam, and I didn't know Jen. And how do you create relationships when they don't exist? It's a tough one.
I think there's a lot of yes to ending that just happens. I mean, if you are an actor and an improviser, there's just kind of going with the vibe that's happening and not like kind of saying no to things, but just giving over to what Adam and Jen were doing.
And then I would also credit you, Ben, and Aoife a lot that first season of just allowing a lot of different takes of choices. I mean, I remember, Ben, you would early on just be like, try one this way.
Now try one that way. Now try this.
And just trusting that you guys were going to also edit some of that together because we didn't know the tone yet. I think we all had a guess, but especially with the Audi stuff, especially with Rickon and Devin, like, what is this world? How does this book party fit in with the rest of the vibe? Yeah.
Like, I remember you, Ben, coming up with the bell ringing app line.

It's still one of my favorite.

Just gross.

You can't unring the bell ringing app.

Bell ringing app.

Yeah.

I remember your,

I mean, look,

I laugh endlessly at the stuff you do

and especially that scene,

you're just being emotionally sort of just exhausted from putting yourself out there from the reading um and you really need to take a moment his voice is worn out yeah um and then you did it said in the script that like what is this to say that your voice is something you asked bal first on the neti pot right. Because it's like warbling.
So you as an actor had to create

whatever this issue in your throat

that was going on before

and the weird warbling

trill, it's like a

trill, it's so ridiculous.

Yeah, he doesn't get raspy, he goes higher.

It's so ridiculous.

It's so ridiculous.

It makes me laugh so much.

Oh, creatures

from the leaping cat to the cowering

shrew, think of themselves as you a logical center for the universe yet the cat eats the shrew and we like schrodinger live on to wonder what it means but even that we had to i feel like we could all crack each other up all day long, right? But like the quest was how do we make this funny but be insevered still? Yes, for sure. It's not.
But I have to say like off the bat, the first photo shoot that we did for the cover of the UUR, when I saw you doing these looks and this vibe of, you know this guy it was so perfect to me i was like yeah this is what it's going to be this guy is going to be ridiculous and funny but also you have to totally believe him and that's that's the thing yeah i remember we we needed that prop so you guys went and shot those photos before you had ever shot anything for the show, Michael. So I remember seeing the book and being like, oh, yeah, this feels right.
That's Rickon. I don't know if anyone had shot a frame.
I think it was the camera test. Oh, you're probably right.
And I came in and, yeah, I didn't know really who Rickon was. And we tried a bunch of different like hairdos.
And I remember Ben being like, could he look like Leif Garrett? Yeah. And the UUR, the book, it was actually written by Dan.
He wrote a good portion of the book. And it's actually available on Apple Books now.
And you read it. Yeah, there's an audio book too, right?

There's an audio book read by Rick and Hale.

Now, was Balfe there when you recorded

to have the neti pot in case your throat?

He had to be.

I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

Balfe 13 was there actually rubbing my feet

and my feet cramp when I read.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was really fun and really hard. Really? Yeah.
I mean, joking aside, my voice was like a mess after those. I needed a balf.
It's so funny. Yeah.
I mean, it's really great. It's so good.
Dan is just so smart. And as we know, is just so invested in this world that literally every corner has been thought about.
There are passages in what he wrote that just blew me away. And I was reading a lot of it for the first time in the recording studio and just laughing out loud.
I mean, it's so good. And there's some passages that are really actually affecting too in, in it.
Well, that's the thing, because Rickon is not a joke. Rickon is some real something there that we can hold on to.
I mean, we have to. There is.
And we learned some stuff about him in the audio book. I won't give anything away, but there's some history and backstory that gets revealed that I think hopefully fleshes him out a little bit more for viewers.
Yeah. And relates to the story that we're telling.
So check it out. The UUR.
So, so fun. Michael, thank you so much for coming and doing the show.
So fun. Thanks, man.
Thanks, guys. Ben, before we take a break, why don't we answer a question from the hotline? What do you say?

Yes, let's do it.

This hotline segment of the Severance podcast is sponsored by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence.
Hi, Severance employees. My name is Emma.
I'm curious why melon for the melon party or incentive or whatever. Curious if you could have any other fruit, what would it be instead of that? Because in my opinion, it's the worst fruit possible.
whoa emma melon catching some strays yeah what's your issue with melon? I mean, if you're talking about the egg bar, for me, the egg bar is not coveted as fuck. It's actually my least favorite thing in the world is a hard-boiled egg or what we had in that scene, which are the scotch eggs.
At the time, we were wearing PPE for COVID and I was really grateful because I'd stayed as far away as possible from those. What would happen to you if you were forced to eat a scotch egg? I would probably throw up.
Uh-huh. Yeah.
Okay. How about you? What would happen? I would enjoy it.
I enjoy eggs. Oh, my God.
Yeah. See, now I know what Emma feels like with melons.
I remember also Zach and Britt were vegans,ans so they couldn't eat eggs so you got didn't you guys have to find someone who made yeah fake replicas of eggs yeah yeah which was better than real eggs so i was grateful for that um i love melon i i don't love all melon i like cantaloupe as my favorite melon honeydew i don't care't care for as much. Of course you do.
You don't like cantaloupe. But I do enjoy how Zach does his little toothpick search for which melon balls.
Melon balls are definitely not my thing at all. I enjoy cantaloupe cut into like circular shapes.
You do? I don't like the little scooper because it makes me think, well, that's like ice cream. It's like a mini ice cream scoop.
But then it's like, oh, but it's not ice cream. It's melon.
I want ice cream. Okay.
Well, I guess that's it. That's my thinking on it.
All right. It's time for us to take a quick break.
We'll be right back. The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency.
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Okay, it's time for us to dive into the rest of the episode where we see the fallout from last episode's somewhat disastrous Ortbo, starting with Heli slash Helena back at Lumen slash MDR.

Helena is not happy about having to go back down there.

Let's listen to the scene where Mr. Drummond basically tells Helena that she has to make this sacrifice for Lumen.

My Annie who tried to kill me.

And then the other one tried to kill me.

They're fucking animals. I'll just fake it again.
We can't take that chance. We need to clean this up.
Milchik's many errors this weekend have forced our hand. And Father approves.
Oh my God. Dari Olsen, a friend of mine who I met when we did Secret Life of Walter Mitty.
When I met him, I was told he was probably like the most popular actor in Iceland, which I think he is that makes sense he does stage television film he produces he writes and he came over to do drummond for us which has just been i think just so much fun to see this sort of you know he's kind of in that world of the not the new grainer but he has i think a more probably a more complicated position than Grainer had. It seems like he has quite a bit of power.
Yes, he does. At this point, he's telling her something she doesn't want to hear in terms of obviously the fallout from the Ortbo and what Milchick screwed up sort of on a big scale.
And she's having to deal with a lot of the fallout from that. And I think he's trying to be sensitive to it, but he's basically telling her that she's got to tow the company line and go back down.
Yeah. But something he's kind of not saying, either out of politeness or deference, is that she fucked up too.
She got found out. She didn't pull it off.
So that's true. That's part of what's going on here too.
And she doesn't like any of it. She calls innies fucking animals, which is really crazy.
But yeah. Yeah.
I think it's an interesting thing, right? The Egan perspective on innies. Yeah.
They're not like a whole person because if they thought of them that way, how would they be able to do any of this? Yeah. And I think that for Helena, she's now at this point learned how people feel about Heli down there.
And I have to feel like she, she's feeling like she's missing out on something. It feels to me that she's definitely not getting in her Helena life.
Totally. The interpersonal connections or the, you know, the friendships, let alone the feelings for Mark.
Think about that. I mean, this relationship has blossomed on her watch in a intense way.
I mean, they got physical and have this strong connection. Yeah.
I mean, and what are her feelings from that? I mean, they slept together. You know, they were intimate with one another.

So I think when she's calling them fucking animals, you know, there's a real complicated reaction that's going on there to what, you know, what she feels about hell.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and then she has to go back down there.

Right.

Not as Helena, but, you know, she has to go through the separate transition and go back down as Heli.

Good morning, Heli-R.

Who the fuck are you?

This is interesting because to me, one of the big questions was now that Heli is back,

this is having to sort of reset everything that got set up in the first four episodes in terms of having to bring Heli up to speed. And the Ortbo happened and Irving was basically killed, any Irving.
And this question of how does Heli process all this, not knowing anything that's happened that we all have seen for the first four episodes? And how does Milchick deal with this situation of all of them freaking out on him? Yeah, and I remember it being really important to me that it not just be a situation where Helly's back. Okay, let's catch her up and just like continue figuring stuff out.
It's such a betrayal and such a Mark's entire kind of emotional world was turned upside down. So there needed to be some trust issues there.
If you find out that the most important person in the world to you is not at all who you thought they were, there would be a strong kind of reaction in the other direction. And so, yeah, that's a reset for Helly, sort of a reset for everything, because all the progress that they'd made looking for Miss Casey is out the window completely.
You know, everything is sort of the game board has been tossed or whatever you say. Yeah.
And there's no trust. And Milchick had to then sort of reset them all again.
MDR. Together again.
Come on in. I need to know what's going on.
Like, right now. Where's Irving? And why was he trying to drown me? Because you're a fucking Egan.
Was she spying on us? Wait, what? The whole time. It's called a Glasgow block.
It allows one's outie. Wait, wait, wait.
Are you saying that she was down here as me? Maybe she still is. Hey, I repeat myself.
Where is Irving? Yeah, where is he? I'm so confused. Answer my question.
Excuse me.

Dylan becomes hyper-focused on Irv and needing everyone to acknowledge Irv dying, essentially,

and not getting quite what he wants from anybody.

And Helly, like, no one's quite giving her what she needs either.

She's like, what the fuck?

I'm just like, you know,

everybody's sort of off in their own world.

And how does Milchik explain that Helena was down there spying on them?

Yeah.

And so he comes up with this story

of the Grok-Shupan.

Have you ever heard this story of the Grok-Shup collection uh let's assume we haven't in ancient times the king of sweden himself was known to go incognito amongst his people in the hopes of learning their true grievances he would don an old gray robe a collection thekshupan, the name for which he was remembered. The Grokshupan was based on a true story, the true legends of the king or queen who would go undercover amongst the people when they didn't know what the king or queen looked like to understand the needs of their people.
And the Grokapan is actually a true story. I will say that we came up with that idea of that story.
And then Tramiel, I think he called me up the night before we shot. And he was asking about the pronunciation of Gracapan.
And I did not know that. And so he came in with thisupon pronunciation.
I don't know where he got it from, but I think he did some research on it. It was impossible to not laugh whenever he did that.
And we did it a lot. And we had a tough time because it's amazing.
Yeah, Swedish. It's Swedish because Dylan calls it Swedish horseshit, right? And what I like about that scene is that it's kind of believable enough that you could chew on it a little bit, but also nobody's really buying it also.
Nobody's even listening to what he's saying at this point, I don't think. but it's also at this point it's sort of like I'm just going to tell you this story and then he's going to

immediately take you out to the new MDR desks and show you the three desks. And all of a sudden, it's like the mind games are like, okay, this is it.
He's gone. This is the reality.
And I think there's an understanding that you don't really want to dig much deeper on this because your desk will be gone too. And the whole Lumen is listening thing is basically out the window too.
Oh yeah. It's just like, oh yeah, that's all done.
Let's talk about the funeral because Dylan really insists that they need to do something to remember Irving. this is in this aftermath of everybody just, I think, being so disoriented by what happened at the Ortbo and the news of that Helly wasn't Helly and everybody's sort of retreating to their own corners.
And for Dylan, he's just focused on Irving and Milchick puts together the bereavement ceremony. To me, it's this ominous little moment where you see him picking out the Irving cup.
So the Irving coffee cup is going to be for Irving's bereavement ceremony, but you also see there's a Heli cup and there's a Mark cup. And in the back of your head, maybe there's like, oh, someday each one of these people will have their own cup at their bereavement ceremony.
And the out that he's yeah you you get the sense that there is a checklist for a bereavement ceremony and they're just running through it and getting it ready and by the way how about that watermelon head the oh my god the watermelon head there's something about that with that little it has that little like papal cap on it yeah he looks like little like little Pope Irving. Yeah, he does.
He does. And I could see John- I mean that totally respectfully.
I could see John being the Pope. He could pull it off.
He should have been in Conclave. I agree.
I haven't even seen Conclave, but I feel like he should have been. I saw Conclave.
Yeah. Everyone's incredible.
Totoro should have been in there somewhere.

But then Dylan gives this very sweet eulogy for Irving.

He asked me for help with something near the end,

and I didn't listen.

And in his final moments,

he would have been totally justified

in telling me to suck my own fuck.

But he didn't. He was awesome and I miss him.
Thank you, Dylan G. A little sugar with your usual salt.
I remember shooting that and just thinking, Zach is so great. Yeah.
I love Ms. Wong and her theremin playing, how she just, the sound design on that one, I know you and Jeff probably found the timing of this.
The one little peep of theremin we get before Milchik tells it. It's just a perfectly timed comedic thing.
Yeah, they've got their own little kind of work situation happening. The dynamic going on between the two of them.
And you get the sense that she's not really being given the chance to spread her wings as much as she might want to. Sarah Bach, the great Sarah Bach.
Yes. Yeah.
It's also interesting because you're not really into it as Mark. No, I think that I'm at a place where, or Mark is at a place where it's all a waste of time.
Like, what are we doing? What difference does it make if we have a funeral for Irving or we don't have a funeral for Irving? He's gone. He's not dead, by the way.
He's out there in the world. We're stuck down here.
If we're here, sure, go do your funeral, whatever. He's just, it's cynicism.
He's experiencing cynicism, I think, for the first time. Yeah.
Well, it's also interesting because you have spent 40 minutes in the outside world. You have an experience of the outside world that Dylan doesn't have.
He's had like maybe 30 seconds in his closet. But when you say like Irving's not dead, you really, you know, you're really like coming at it from a place of like, I think you're just so sort of over the whole thing.
But also, I think in my mind, also feeling this hurt from the Helena, Helly lie.

Yeah.

And Dylan's feeling this hurt having lost Irving.

Yeah.

And Helly feels hurt because no one is coming up and saying, hey, are you okay?

Like, what are you feeling?

Like, everybody is deeply hurt and isolated.

At the same time, you're processing the fact that you now don't trust Helly

because you don't know.

You really don't know.

So everything is sort of upended.

What was she like?

Like you. sort of upend it.
What was she like? Uh, like you, or you're like her? I don't know. I don't know who you are, I guess.
Yes, you do. Okay.
It's not my fault that my Audi hijacked me.

Yeah, no, no, totally. I get it.
It sucks.

Mark?

Yeah?

What happened to you up there?

Doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter?

Nope. Do you want to hear what happened to me? No, I don't.
And let's just try to forget it. The bathroom scene between Britt and I was tricky to get just that tone exactly right.
Kind of Mark's reaction to her and her approach to Mark. Just, it was complicated and difficult in it.
Very fine line, very subtle differences. But we, I think I love that scene, but it wasn't easy to nail down.
No, there were so many different agendas to juggle in terms of what would be on the character's minds after this huge revelation. Right.
Because it's a really important scene, not like eventful, but a really emotionally important scene. Yeah, because the audience has, I felt it was like incredibly important that the audience after episode four can get reinvested in what's going on and it's not going like, well, wait a minute, this happened or that happened.
How could they even not worry about that? And that, it took a little while to figure out what were the important things that the characters had to address for us to really kind of reset the story and keep it going forward in these little sort of interaction moments. It's not like a bigger story thing.
It's more like little emotional tracking stuff. But it was also storytelling wise, we thought, you know, Mark has to rethink everything that happened in the first four episodes

and so he has to really go back and process that and what it does is it takes away any trust he

really has that's right in heli and so they have to kind of figure out how to rebuild their

relationship yeah and i think up until their conversation at the end he's made a game time

decision of let's just do whatever they say it doesn't matter if we do one thing or the other

Thank you. conversation at the end, he's made a game time decision of let's just do whatever they say.
It doesn't matter if we do one thing or the other, we're going to end up right back at this spot. Might as well just refine and keep going.
Yeah. It's kind of like Mark has become, from the first season, if he was the young child, in the second season, he's becoming much more aware much more rebellious but now he kind of has like a I don't give a fuck sort of attitude which kind of makes him even more I think of a loose cannon because he really doesn't know what to believe in what's true what's not true he knows he doesn't trust Lumen yeah uh any Mark and he of lost trust in Helly.
But what we see also is how much Helly and Mark have feelings for each other too. That regardless of that.
Yes. Like he, as we see, because we see you come together and that part of it is a very important element of the story.
It kind of in a way helps bond Helly and Mark. Yeah.
by the end of this episode. Yeah.
Wouldn't you say? I do. And I think that it's in that last conversation in the hallway, but there's still this secret between them that Milchik exploits at the end that's particularly diabolical on Milchik's part, I think.
Yeah. You mean the elevator seat you mean the elevator yes yeah i mean that to me is this moment where milchick is under the gun because he's just gotten this performance review right where we're really starting to feel the companies turning the screws on him yeah he can't find an ally at all.
He's just alone.

Welcome, Mr. Milchik.

Today I will be conducting your monthly performance review.

This review can take anywhere from two to six hours

depending on the number of atonements and approbations required.

If the review is to take longer than four hours,

there will be a break for lunch with the order taken in advance.

Well, I hope that won't be necessary.

Here is the lunch menu.

The performance review with Milchik is, I think, part of this trajectory that we're seeing of, you know, Milchik is kind of doing a lot that is probably new for him, new responsibilities within the company as being the floor manager. But also after three, we're feeling like, well, he's questioning also like what the attitude is really towards him.
Yeah. The company.
He's quietly questioning, which is what's so fascinating about it. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, he's, I think, incredibly loyal to the company.

Yes.

And what I like about this whole little trajectory that's evolving is people see Milchick as a very mysterious and sometimes scary character. And I'm starting to feel, especially as we see him relating to Drummond, who is this, you know, obviously his superior and is kind of putting him through the ringer on this performance review that, you know, that Milchick has to answer to someone as well.
It's just interesting to see Milchick be put in this position where he has to respond to his superior. It's not Cobell and Cobell and him.
I think we look at that in relation to Drummond and Milchick. Cobell and Milchick have a much deeper relationship.
There's a friendship there. You can tell even if it's underneath.
Yeah. Cobell would confide in him about things that she was doing that were possibly not, you know, totally kosher at the company.
And there was sort of a, it felt like there was like a trust. Yeah.
And he's without that now. Yeah.
There's no one to talk to. No.
And Drummond is there with Natalie going through all of these infractions and also trying to figure out who reported him. And you see that he's taking it really hard.
Yeah. And in three, when Natalie brings him the paintings, Trammell is just so deeply excellent through all of these things he's going through.
He doesn't have anyone to confide in or talk to, but we, the audience, we get let in on these questions that he's having, but it's none of it's verbal. We just experience it with him.
And he's so good that we don't need it to be verbalized. No, but you see him going through it and we get it emotionally.
And you do see that he reaches out to Natalie before the performance review. Oh, yeah.
Right. To try to connect on what happened with the paintings.
Right. And this question of like, did you feel weird too when you got these paintings? And she's not going to go there with him.
No, he doesn't get anything. And it kind of goes the other way.
And then, of course, you see that trickle-down effect of post-performance review when he's told to tighten the leash that he takes it out directly on Mark in the elevator.

Sure does.

Did you and Heli R. catch up?

We did.

Did you tell her that you fucked her Audi at the Orpo?

Helena Egan, leader in waiting of this company. First time we ever see Milchick, I think, talk like that, you know, use bad language like that.
It's shocking. Do you remember the um the documentary the cove about the dolphins in japan came out maybe 10 years ago i think it won oscar there was a character named they called him personal space because he would get up in the face of one of the protesters they call anyway to me i think of when i think of tramell coming up to you, he's like getting into your personal space there.

I mean, it's so uncomfortably close.

Just the two of you are face-to-face in profile. And you're really kind of, you're giving him more shit than you've ever given him.
Yeah. I mean, it's post the conversation with Heli.
it's after all this stuff and it's just like okay dude i think that mark is far more free to kind of call him on his bullshit than or feels far more free to call milchik on his bullshit than he ever has he has nothing to lose at this point essentially yeah and then meanwhile on the outside ragabi is there living with you and you've sort of agreed to this reintegration process it's very arcane and weird and you have to drink special liquid and you're kind of over the fact that you have to live with her there yeah i love what she says to you something about like the washing machine's not working or something or and you and you say something like yeah or you could just like not live here i think ragabi and mark are opposites in a lot of ways and she has no real like party manners she's just all business and i do not think they're best friends i kind of like the theme though that's developed in the show of people living in mark's basement like yeah pey living in her basement in season one. You have Raghabi in season two.
Karen Aldridge is just fantastic. I love Karen.
Yeah. She's so good.
You know, like with Jen Tulloch, how she can't not do something that feels real. Yeah.
I feel like with Karen, you never get a take that's the same way twice because it's always coming from a place of she's processing whatever she's heard in the moment and whatever's going to come out is going to come out in a way that feels right for that moment and so it's always interesting you know and it's always believable totally and she carries a lot of water that way in terms of having we have to believe that she can do this process so what do you think mark at this point he's decided he wants to do this reintegration because he wants you know, he believes that this is his chance to contact Gemma. Yes.
But he's also kind of like getting a little bit maybe skeptical of Raghavi because like at the end of the day, she's just this person in his basement who's telling him that she's doing this stuff, but he has no other proof really of it. But he's kind of desperate because he believes her now that he has enough information from what Cobell told him that he thinks this could actually be a real thing.
Yeah. And he knows that she's the one that was trying to reintegrate Petey and she's convinced him that she's figured it out since then because obviously it ended up killing Petey.
But I think at the end of the day, him finding out that Gemma is in fact alive, this is a real piece of information, it's worth dying for. I think that it is the most important thing, obviously, in his life, but maybe the most important thing, he has to do this no matter what.
It had to be that. Yeah.
You've taken the first steps and you're starting to reintegrate. I mean, we're starting to see that.
And the end of the episode is really where we see it start to happen for you in a way that for the first time, you're kind of dissociating from where you are and you're starting to have these flashes of being on the severed floor. and all of a sudden you're in the long, dark hallway from the break room.

And it's the first time we ever see you, Audi Mark, having a glimpse into any Mark's world. Yeah.
That was really interesting shooting in the MDR hallways as Audi Mark in like those clothes and stuff. It was so bizarre.
And it's really- Yeah. You were like in a sweatshirt.
Yeah. In a sweatshirt in the MDR hallways.
I was like, this is crazy. It's crazy.
And seeing just the visual of Audi Mark down there is super interesting too. It's really weird.
But yeah, and we shot all of that stuff, both in E and Audi. So Sam would have me walk down that hallway and keep staying the exact same, trying to keep everything exactly the same in two different pieces of wardrobe.
So we could do those flashes back and forth and not have it be green screen or whatever, but actually do all of it. And it was really meticulous.
Well, you did that also in episode three when we did it for you waking up on the table at the end of episode three, where you had to do every different permutation. But I think to me, what I take away from that scene and the way the episode ends is the feeling right the emotional toll that this is taking on you because all of a sudden audi mark is seeing for a second he sees gemma a miss casey version of gemma but it's gemma and we end on this moment of you back in reality in your living room or wherever.
And you're basically almost crying there because it is such a deep feeling. And to me, that's really effective the way that it was done because it reminded me of waking up from a dream.
If you've ever had a dream where you see someone who you missed or you have a deep you have a deep emotion in a dream. And for me, a lot of times my dreams are like our feelings that I associate with them as much as the imagery.
And I've had that where I've woken up almost crying. And that to me was the most impactful part of that whole sequence was the fact that, oh, wait, this is going to take an emotional toll on Mark.
Yeah. This journey of trying to reintegrate.
Yeah, because what we were figuring out and really zeroing in on shooting that scene was, this is the first time he has seen Gemma in three years. And he's not looking at a photograph of her.
He's not watching something on his phone. She is standing in front of him.
And when someone dies, you're never going to see them again. And she's right there.
And yeah, she's dressed weird and hair is different and everything, but just sort of the emotional shock of standing right there with her, or that's how it feels anyway. Yeah.
To me, it was very emotional at the end of that episode. And I think that gets back to kind of the core of what I think we always want with the show is keep it grounded in that as much as any of the weirdness or anything is really Mark's journey.
Before we say goodbye, it's time to hear Zach Cherry's prediction of what's going to happen in the next episode, in episode six, which I'm really looking forward to. Oh, yeah, let's see.
Hi, y'all. Zach Cherry here again, and it's time for that part of the episode where I make a prediction about what's going to happen next.
Next time on Severance. You know, I think that Dylan is going to be inspired by watching Miss Wong play theremin, and he's going to take up an instrument of his own called the voice.
That's right. Dylan's going to start taking voice lessons, and it will sound a little something like this.
La la la la la. That's just his first lesson.
And he is going to submit himself to be on a music competition reality show. What's your favorite music competition reality show? Write in to Ben and Adam and let them know what your favorite music competition reality show is.
I love it. Yeah.
I love it. You know, I would love to see a Lumen competition reality show.
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think I'd love to see Dylan on, I don't know, American Idol or that was, by the way, I used to watch American Idol back in the old days.
That was my, that was my thing. I think, yeah, I think Dylan, you know, the guy is very lovable and that goes a long way on those competition singing shows.
Oh, 100%. I think he would have gotten further than Bo Bice, that's for sure.
Ah, Bo Bice. I was a big Bo Bice fan.
Did Bo Bice win? He was the runner-up. But I wanted him to win.
I wanted him to win. Me too.
Do you remember what song he did? I think he did... Vehicle.
Vehicle. What's that? Be your vehicle, baby.
Be your vehicle, baby. He did a lot of songs like that.
Well, I think he did... Vehicle.
Vehicle. What's that? I'll be your vehicle, baby.
I'll be your vehicle, baby.

Oh, yeah.

He did a lot of songs like that.

Well, I think Dylan should definitely go on a reality show.

And the Lumen reality show for singing, I'm sure that Ms. Cobell would be judging.

Ms. Cobell would be like the Simon.

Right.

She'd be the Simon Cowell.

And you'd have to sing the not punitive rendition of the Cure Hymn. That's the only song anyone could sing.
That's the only song you can sing, just different interpretations of it. And all the judges would be Simons.
Everyone would be mean. Okay, and that is it for this episode.
The Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two, episode six. Yes, and you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.
And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.
If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts,

the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis,

Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese Dennis.

This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott.

This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.
Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.
Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff. And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Baldurutin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Ager.
And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter.

And this has been really fun. I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott, and I agree that it's been super fun.

And remember, everyone, that your Audi once captured a butterfly.

And you can too.

Thank you. Bye.