#212 Katarina Szulc - Inside the Cartels' Secret Smuggling Operation in Port of Vancouver

Speaker 1 Extra value meals are back. For just $5, get a savory and sweet sausage, egg, and cheese McGriddles.
Plus, hash browns and a coffee.

Speaker 2 Only at McDonald's.

Speaker 3 For limited time only, prices and participation may vary.

Speaker 5 Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. This Marshawn Beast Mode Lynch.
Prize Pick is making sports season even more fun.

Speaker 5 On prize picks, whether you're a football fan, a basketball fan, it always feels good to be right.

Speaker 5 Right now, new users get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first five dollars the app is simple to use pick two or more players pick more or less on their stat projections anything from touchdown to threes and if you write you can win big mix and match players from any sport on prize picks america's number one daily fantasy sports app prize picks is available in 40 plus states including california texas florida and Georgia.

Speaker 5 Most importantly, all the transactions on the app are fast, safe, and secure.

Speaker 4 Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. That's code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup.

Speaker 4 PrizePicks is good to be right. Must be present in certain states.
Visit PrizePicks.com for restrictions and details.

Speaker 3 Katarina Schultz.

Speaker 2 Sean Ryan.

Speaker 3 Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 Man, you are getting some like amazing content down there with the cartels and reporting on all that stuff. So, I can't remember how I found you.
I think it was my producer, Jeremy.

Speaker 2 I'm curious to know what it was that sparked your guys's interest.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think, I think my producer found you. And so, anyways, we've been tracking you probably for six months, maybe.
Wow, but uh, love your work. Thank you.

Speaker 3 How do you get before we get into the interview? How do you get that much access?

Speaker 2 Everyone, this is my most asked question,

Speaker 2 and there are a few things that I can attribute it to. First,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 nerd out about this. I've always been interested since a kid, and we'll get into that

Speaker 2 in organized crime and international conflict. And so

Speaker 2 I try to know about it as much as I can.

Speaker 2 And I think people recognize that. Second, I don't judge.

Speaker 2 So I have my own, you know, morals and ethics and personal values, but I never let that come across with the people I'm speaking to, whether they're the good guys, the bad guys, or somewhere in between or undecided.

Speaker 2 And I just want to hear everyone's story. I just want to know what's going on.

Speaker 2 I want to give people a voice that feel like they don't have one.

Speaker 2 And then also,

Speaker 2 I'm a 24-year-old girl from Canada.

Speaker 3 You're only 24? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh my gosh. I know.

Speaker 2 I look a lot older. But

Speaker 2 I'm a 24-year-old girl from Canada who wants to talk about

Speaker 2 what was your reaction to

Speaker 2 Trump saying that you and your colleagues are terrorists.

Speaker 2 I'm just curious to know. And a lot of these guys will open up.
Keep in mind, I'm typically always and only working with men. So organized crime is dominated by men.
And so when I go in,

Speaker 2 it's very

Speaker 2 unalarming. I mean, I don't give off the vibe that I'm going to kill you or rat on you or have some sort of hidden agenda.
I just like to hear the stories.

Speaker 2 I'm genuinely interested and I like to tell them in the most unbiased way possible, the most honest way. And so that has allowed me to gain the trust of a lot of people.

Speaker 2 who have a lot of high-level information and are willing to share it with me.

Speaker 2 And I've, you know, I've put my work in for that because I've spoken to quite a few people over the course of my career who took a risk in sharing information with me, reaching out to me or speaking to me or meeting with me.

Speaker 2 And I never have ever let their identities been known

Speaker 2 or given that information to someone who could put their situation at risk. So

Speaker 2 that's how I think I get access. And I'm a pusher.
I attack.

Speaker 3 I mean, where did you start though?

Speaker 3 Why do you think they give you access? There's a lot of people that'll go down there and listen to what they have to say. And plus, all those journalists are getting killed down there.

Speaker 3 I don't know if they're still getting killed, but a couple years ago,

Speaker 3 they were murdering journalists left and right.

Speaker 2 Mexico actually is like one of the top countries for the most murdered journalists and female journalists. There you go.
Just like check the box. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Why me? I mean, I push for it. I'm like, let me talk to you.
And if they say no, I go and ask someone else or I ask differently. I don't really take no for an answer.

Speaker 2 And I convince them why I'm the right person that they can share this information with or take me along, whether that's law enforcement or it's organized crime people.

Speaker 3 Why do you think they want to get any of the information out to begin with?

Speaker 2 It's a way to flaunt their power, flex their muscles, show people: look, I'm doing all of this crime. I basically run Mexico.
I run the drug trade.

Speaker 2 And I'm committing violent acts in broad daylight, gruesomely.

Speaker 2 And I'm giving this information to the press.

Speaker 2 And catch me if you can.

Speaker 2 Interesting. That's certainly what it is.
I think it's an ego thing for sure. It's a flex.
It's a flex, 100%.

Speaker 2 For some people,

Speaker 2 it's

Speaker 2 also kind of like

Speaker 2 media relations. They put this message out out there.

Speaker 2 An adversary hears or sees it, and they're sending a message.

Speaker 3 Gotcha. Yeah.
Gotcha.

Speaker 3 Well, let's get into the interview. Here we go.

Speaker 3 So, Katarina Schultz, a fearless investigative journalist who's gone where few dare, diving headfirst into the heart of Mexico's cartel strongholds like Sinaloa and Jalisco to expose the brutality, reality, excuse me, to expose the brutal reality of organized crime, a bilingual boots on the ground reporter tracking the cartel empire and its influence on North America, former traditional journalist who realized you needed to get out of the newsroom to find out what's really happening.

Speaker 3 And you're the author of your popular sub stack to keep people informed on all things cartel related. So thank you for coming in here.
And

Speaker 3 we got a whole slew of topics to cover. But you had mentioned something, you'd mentioned you had went down.
I don't know if it was

Speaker 3 really happened, but you said you went down to the cartels, some of the cartel members and asked what they thought about Trump later alone terrorist organizations. What was their response to that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I went

Speaker 2 to a border region where

Speaker 2 some members of organized crime spoke with me and they're responsible for

Speaker 2 a significant amount of the trafficking and human smuggling operations. And this was right after Trump had officially declared them FTOs, because there was a lot of rhetoric around this previously.

Speaker 2 And even Texas governor Greg Abbott had previously declared them FTOs.

Speaker 2 But now

Speaker 2 this was real. And this

Speaker 2 I had assumed was going to invoke a lot of fear, especially when it came to the financial pipelines, because that's what this act really attacks, is the cartel's finances.

Speaker 2 And that's so much worse than putting a bounty on their family members or stopping the flow of drugs. Like for them, it's the money freezing financial assets,

Speaker 2 shutting down their shell companies, whatever it is. And so I wanted to know because we were seeing so many headlines of how crazy this is and politicians reacting.

Speaker 2 Okay, but the guys who are really going to face the brunt of this, what's going on? And so I asked them, you know,

Speaker 2 what do you think about Trump calling you

Speaker 2 and the people you work with and your networks terrorists? And how is this going to impact you?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's so funny because I had anticipated this reaction, but I didn't think they'd actually,

Speaker 2 we don't care. We're just going to wait four years.

Speaker 2 It's not that deep. Wow.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 We're not going to fight them on it. We'll give them what they want to see.
And we are not terrorists. Because there is a demand for our product.

Speaker 2 There are drug addicts all across the United States who want what we have to sell. How are we terrorizing them?

Speaker 2 We're not literally, they're telling me like, we're not like ISIS or the Taliban bombing innocent people.

Speaker 2 We just supply a product that there is a demand for. And if this designation means that we have to hold off for a little while in order to protect our networks, that's exactly what we will do.

Speaker 3 Interesting. So what do you think? What is the plan then? Are they just going to are they going to stop?

Speaker 3 That's kind of what's been happening.

Speaker 2 I mean, fentanyl numbers have been going down, but I don't think that's the plan. The plan is to move operations.
And I've been reporting on this extensively. It's all happening in Canada now.

Speaker 2 No one else is clocking it. And it's so obvious.
It started during Trump's first administration when he first started cracking down on the southern border.

Speaker 2 cartels knew they could go into Canada and they didn't need a visa like they needed to get into the U.S. It was just a regular tourist visa.
They didn't need to apply for anything or pay for anything.

Speaker 2 They could just go get their tourist, like have a regular tourist visa the way I come to the United States,

Speaker 2 set up shop,

Speaker 2 negotiate, and network with pre-existing organized crime groups in Canada, whether that be the Hells Angels, a big one, or Brothers Keepers or Red Scorpion or the United Nations gang, and say, hey, look, you guys have incredible access, okay, over 5,000 miles of practically unprotected border into the United States.

Speaker 2 We can produce this product here and traffic it. Not to mention, a lot of these pre-existing gangs

Speaker 2 have large Asian populations. And what do we have in Vancouver? The port of Vancouver.
And where are the fentanyl precursors coming in? From China. So you move these precursors.

Speaker 2 The The movement is now

Speaker 2 no longer coming into Mexico. It's coming into Canada.
You set up shop. You increase profit.

Speaker 2 You tell all these guys that are already there, hey, look, if you let us, Sinaloa or Jalisco in to work with you guys, we're going to quadruple profits.

Speaker 3 So wait, you're saying that no more,

Speaker 3 are you saying in addition to Mexico produced fentanyl or it's all moved to Canada?

Speaker 2 I think the majority has moved to Canada.

Speaker 3 The majority of it's moved to Canada. Yes.

Speaker 2 I am 99% sure about that because you can never be 100% sure, but I am so sure about that.

Speaker 2 Last summer, I wanted to crack down on this story because I had an individual reach out to me who was an operative for the Sinaloa Cartel working in Canada, running these labs.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he showed me the labs that the Sinaloa cartel is

Speaker 2 operating with.

Speaker 3 Physically? Yeah. Yep.
What are they, where are they putting them?

Speaker 2 They're putting them in suburban sort of, so in, in, they're particularly in the west coast, in BC and in Alberta, which is like a prairie province.

Speaker 2 And so there's a lot of farmland and it's residential.

Speaker 2 And prior to them, prior to this, it was meth labs that they had running out there. And there would always be like a random meth lab explosion in Abbotsford or, you know, this is like a smaller city.

Speaker 2 And then these turned into fentanyl labs that were completely under the radar because we also didn't have Canadian law enforcement like patrolling these areas to an extent that they would patrol like a large city like Vancouver or Toronto.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you're bringing in precursors from the port of Vancouver easily because less than 1% of cargo that comes into the port of Vancouver is actually inspected by authorities or less than how much?

Speaker 2 Less than 1%.

Speaker 3 Less than 1%.

Speaker 2 That is an official number.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 So the majority of the cargo that's coming into the port of Vancouver is unmonitored.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you have longshoremen that are

Speaker 2 on organized crime payroll

Speaker 2 or turning a blind eye.

Speaker 2 These precursors are being brought to labs throughout the lower mainland. And they are producing fentanyl there.

Speaker 2 And it started off as distributing this product throughout Canada because just like the United States, there has been this insatiable appetite for fentanyl in Canada.

Speaker 2 During the pandemic, more people at one point were dying of fentanyl overdose deaths than from COVID.

Speaker 2 So that was a major health crisis.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 then

Speaker 2 there's this major crackdown at the southern border.

Speaker 2 You already have cartel operatives established in the north. You have over 5,000 miles of practically unprotected border.
You know, it's Greenland and

Speaker 2 you can fly across, you can drive your boat across, you can drive your dirt bike across.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that just

Speaker 2 left it as open field for these members of organized crime to start to bring their operations to the next level by trafficking everything into the United States.

Speaker 2 And it's important to keep in mind that Canadian law enforcement knows this is happening, very aware, has been aware since around 2017.

Speaker 3 Oh, this has been happening since 2017.

Speaker 2 It's been happening, yeah, since Trump's first, so 2016. Wow.
It's this has been,

Speaker 2 I would say for the past 10 years exactly, is when cartel operatives from Mexico started to move operations into Canada.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 law enforcement knows this is happening, but Canadian law enforcement does not have the resources to crack down on this.

Speaker 3 How many precursors are there? Do you know?

Speaker 2 No, I don't know how to make fentanyl.

Speaker 2 But it's fairly simple.

Speaker 3 How big are these labs? I mean,

Speaker 3 when you say a, you know, a meth lab, that's usually what, like a trailer out in the middle of a field.

Speaker 2 A lot of these are just small, like single occupancy homes.

Speaker 2 Okay. That are

Speaker 3 buying the farmland.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or they're renting it from.

Speaker 2 So a lot of the farmland is owned by certain families.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they will rent out these

Speaker 2 plots of land or whatever little house is already on this land.

Speaker 2 A way that the Canadian authorities crack down on members of organized crime is not through directly charging them with producing or conspiracy to traffic.

Speaker 2 They will crack down on their ownership of a home

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 then they no longer have a place to run operations. So that home gets taken away.

Speaker 2 particular

Speaker 2 real estate is under investigation along with the the people, but it operates a little bit differently and it

Speaker 2 hinders the way that they're able to work.

Speaker 2 But mentioning the law enforcement

Speaker 2 is even though they know that this is going on,

Speaker 2 the resources just are not there. And I have a really good source who is with the RCMP, that's Canada's national police force,

Speaker 2 and he specializes in organized crime. And we talk about that 1% of fentanyl number very frequently because

Speaker 2 he says, neither my colleagues nor myself

Speaker 2 believe that number because we have

Speaker 2 seen so many operations go under the radar, especially when they're working undercover.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I said, well, why isn't there a crackdown then?

Speaker 2 Why aren't they stopping it?

Speaker 2 And why is the Canadian government only implementing a fentanyl when trump is telling them to crack down not when thousands of people are dying on a monthly basis from fentanyl use

Speaker 2 and he explicitly tells me it's because they just don't have the means to do it they haven't even been able to crack down on local gang land how are they now supposed to focus on transnational crime organizations

Speaker 2 The head of RCMP was asked just recently,

Speaker 2 how many organized crime groups, individual organized crime crime groups, do you think are operating in Canada right now? And he responds, it's on video.

Speaker 2 I don't have a number off the top of my head. I think 4,000.

Speaker 2 And so the question is clarified. There are 4,000 organized crime groups operating in Canada with their own individual leadership and networks.

Speaker 2 And the head of the RCMP said, yes, I would say so, around 4,000.

Speaker 3 Who do you think the key players are

Speaker 3 putting these labs in up there? Is Sinaloa cartel, which cartel?

Speaker 2 It's Sinaloa and CJNG. But let me just finish that point about the 4,000, because this goes to show the disconnect between

Speaker 2 Canadian law enforcement in Canada, because it's actually 668 individual organized crime groups. That's according to CSIS, Canadian version of CIA.

Speaker 2 So imagine if you have this disconnect where our national police force is just pulling out a random number. How are you even supposed to crack down on these people and these groups?

Speaker 2 But yes, it's mostly Sinaloa and CJNG that are in Canada.

Speaker 2 I would say now it's likely probably just CJNG, simply due to the fact that Sinaloa does not have the power or the numbers to maintain their stronghold, and they've entered into an alliance with New Generation Curtel.

Speaker 6 For 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless provider, and they stand by their values.

Speaker 6 Patriot Mobile has been a great supporter of this show, which is why I'm proud to partner with them.

Speaker 6 Patriot Mobile offers dependable nationwide coverage, giving you the ability to access all three major networks, which means you get the same coverage you've been accustomed to without the compromise.

Speaker 6 When you switch to Patriot Mobile, you're choosing more than a wireless provider. You're supporting a company that stands for American values and that proudly honors our veterans and first responders.

Speaker 6 Their 100% U.S.-based customer service team makes switching easy. Keep your number, keep your phone, or upgrade.
Their team will help you find the best plan for your needs.

Speaker 6 Just go to patriotmobile.com slash SRS or call 972 Patriot. Get free activation when you use the offer code SRS.
Make the switch today. Patriotmobile.com slash SRS.

Speaker 6 That's patriotmobile.com slash SRS or call 972 PATRIOT.

Speaker 7 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game?

Speaker 7 Well, with the name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com.

Speaker 7 Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.
Not available in all states.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 3 They made an alliance with them.

Speaker 2 I think it's a proxy alliance.

Speaker 2 The Chapitos were

Speaker 2 pretty obviously losing the fight in this

Speaker 2 faction war that's been going on in the Sinaloa cartel since El Mayo was brought to the United States.

Speaker 2 And so I think CJNG saw this as an opportunity to say, we will back you up, but we gain control over everything.

Speaker 2 And they are the first cartel in history to have control over every single Mexican state.

Speaker 3 Interesting. Interesting.
You know, back to, my head's jumping around a lot.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I do that too.

Speaker 3 Back to declaring them terrorist organizations and they're saying,

Speaker 3 I totally understand what they're saying. You know, well, we'll just wait four years and everything will be finished.
But, I mean, there's another aspect, too.

Speaker 3 There's, you know, there's always a potential that we send in SOCOM and JSOC units. I mean, do they have any fear of that?

Speaker 2 I asked them about that. And they said that if,

Speaker 2 American special forces

Speaker 2 lay their feet on Mexican soil, they will fight till the death because they will have nothing to lose. They will put up a fight.
Will they win that fight? No.

Speaker 2 But they won't go down without a fight because that's really, that's all they have.

Speaker 2 And so if their entire livelihood and their entire business is being attacked, especially by U.S. uniform operators who have every means to just completely squash it,

Speaker 2 they won't go down like a bitch. I I mean

Speaker 2 down to what level though you know what I mean I mean to the very bottom to the very bottom oh even even the local drug dealer yes the guy who's a lookout

Speaker 2 who's making pennies

Speaker 2 when I was in Sinaloa covering this fighting in the fall

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 there was the money flow was interrupted for you know all all levels of people working in it with for the cartels

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 main people who, you know, it's like that, that necessary job that makes no money are the puntos, the lookouts, the guys on their dirt bikes who watch if Mexican forces are coming.

Speaker 2 You know, they keep the eyes out for whatever's going on. Those guys make the least amount of money.
They're making around

Speaker 2 $500 a month.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 When the infighting began and all of this money and resources had to go

Speaker 2 we need to maintain our stronghold and we need to buy arms and and stockpile these punteros were the ones losing out and so when i was there once it got dark i couldn't order uh uber eats to my hotel because these guys were stealing the food from the delivery men because they didn't even have enough money to eat But they were still working for the cartels.

Speaker 2 They wouldn't say, okay, you know what? Fuck this. I'm going to go and work in a Walmart where I'm at least going to make a steady income.

Speaker 2 It's not great, but I have something to pay for my basic needs. Because at that point,

Speaker 2 it's not just about the money, it's indoctrination.

Speaker 2 It's about being a part of something, feeling powerful, feeling like you've been validated and accepted by the very people who are responsible for thousands of deaths and the war on drugs.

Speaker 2 They're on the FBI's most wanted posters, and I work for that guy.

Speaker 3 I guess it makes sense.

Speaker 2 I mean, it makes sense to them. We don't have to understand it.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Wow. I thought there would be at least a little fear, but it doesn't sound like they care at all.

Speaker 2 I don't think they do. And based on what I've been told, whether that's what I was told at the border, whether I go and ask in Sinaloa or Jalisco or Michuacan or Guerrero,

Speaker 2 the consensus remains the same. And

Speaker 2 the people in charge are treated like gods. They are

Speaker 2 absolutely praised as if they are the one and only. I mean, that's why we see all the songs about El Mencho, El Chapo, El Mayo.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you can literally go to Sinaloa and buy

Speaker 2 narco merch. You know, you got the hat with whoever's face on it.
You can even buy like religious regalia that is paying homage to narco leaders.

Speaker 2 And so the people who work for them praise them. People who don't work for them praise them and want to work for them.
So, if you're telling this 17-year-old kid

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 has always wanted to be in this lifestyle,

Speaker 2 you're going to die for me, and American forces are coming in,

Speaker 2 he'll stand up, he'll probably shit his pants, but he'll do it. He'll put on

Speaker 2 face.

Speaker 3 How many of these labs do you think have been set up in Canada?

Speaker 3 Do you have any estimation on that?

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 I don't know exactly how many labs are operating in Canada, but the majority of the labs that are in Canada, which is significant because there is certainly a supply, there is no lack of drugs in Canada or the United States, right?

Speaker 2 And especially in northern states, too, where a lot of these drugs are coming into.

Speaker 2 I think the majority of them are being run by the cartels.

Speaker 2 And the interesting thing is, you won't really see it in the numbers or in

Speaker 2 police investigations or press releases because they don't keep track of which criminal organizations are operating what,

Speaker 2 like which labs. So, for example, you will,

Speaker 2 someone will be arrested, three, three men will be arrested for trafficking arms and drugs.

Speaker 2 They were arrested in a surrey home in British Columbia, and we found X amount of drugs, X amount of arms with this amount of street value.

Speaker 2 They won't say, oh, you know, they were operating on behalf of the Sinaloa cartel. They will say, we found messages in our investigation that they were operating with Mexican

Speaker 2 associates.

Speaker 2 And some people will then subsequently be charged and they'll be Mexican nationals living in Canada.

Speaker 2 Those guys are working for the cartels.

Speaker 2 But the Canadian authority doesn't keep track, or at least not publicly,

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 2 who is working with exactly which criminal organization.

Speaker 2 And I think that that also does play a role in allowing the cartels to flourish over there because they can operate so entirely under the radar. I mean, here in the U.S.,

Speaker 2 for the first time, a few weeks ago, a woman in El Paso was arrested for particularly working as a straw buyer for CJNG. And this was the first case of someone in the US

Speaker 2 with material to be charged as an FTO.

Speaker 2 In Canada, that wouldn't be the case. You wouldn't hear that, oh, she was directly working as an associate with the new generation cartel.

Speaker 2 But when you bring light to that, especially in a border place like El Paso, then everyone who's doing it is kind of on edge. And then they say, okay, look, hey,

Speaker 2 we're under a spotlight but if that's not happening you continue to operate like there's there's no spotlight on us we don't need to worry because there isn't

Speaker 2 do canadians know this is happening well if they read my reporting they know now i mean cash patel director of the fbi is now saying it publicly he just said that um they're coming in through the port of vancouver

Speaker 2 They're producing fentanyl. The fentanyl is coming from Canada because they haven't secured the northern border.

Speaker 2 And when I initially started reporting on this and I was reaching out to RCMP and reaching out to CSIS and putting out my contact, everyone was telling me, no, you're wrong. This can't be.

Speaker 2 And RCMP was telling me, we have no evidence to show that local criminal organizations are working directly with cartels.

Speaker 2 But I met with cartel associates in Canada showing me the production, telling me how they're doing it.

Speaker 2 And it goes back to what you asked me. Why are they telling me this? Because they want to show you exactly how they're operating under the radar.
They're so tough.

Speaker 2 And oh, yeah, you secured our southern border. Fuck you.
We moved to Canada.

Speaker 3 How much is one of these labs producing?

Speaker 2 Did you do you know that? Yeah, like, okay, so one batch will be like $150,000 worth of fentanyl pills. And how much? And they're producing.

Speaker 3 How many pills is that?

Speaker 2 It depends because it depends on the size of the pills. It depends on

Speaker 2 the strength of fentanyl in each pill.

Speaker 3 I'm just trying to get an estimation of how much shit is coming through the northern U.S.-Canadian border.

Speaker 3 And then how fast do you think this is spreading? I mean, it sounds like right now it's pretty localized in Vancouver, but when's it going to go, you know, more towards the other coast?

Speaker 2 It is in the East Coast. It's not at the same level, but it certainly is in the East East Coast.

Speaker 2 What I know what's happening for sure in the East Coast is a lot of people are being contracted by the cartels to, and not Mexican people, Canadian nationals are being contracted by the cartels to operate as enforcers.

Speaker 2 A lot of people in Quebec and Ontario.

Speaker 3 What do you mean, enforcer? What does that mean?

Speaker 3 It's like a hockey player.

Speaker 2 It's like a...

Speaker 3 It protects the hockey team, right?

Speaker 2 They're protecting the operations.

Speaker 3 How so? What are they doing?

Speaker 2 Taking out hits, threatening people,

Speaker 2 ensuring that the right individuals are being paid off,

Speaker 2 whether that be enforcement at the border so that guns can get across into Canada from the U.S.

Speaker 2 or fentanyl can go the other way.

Speaker 3 How are they getting their people up there?

Speaker 3 Are they coming up through the U.S.?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Just keep going north or are they flying them in?

Speaker 2 So, prior to Canada re-implementing the visa requirement, a lot of the Mexican nationals were flying directly into Canada.

Speaker 2 They completely would bypass the U.S., it was much easier that way because they wouldn't need a visa.

Speaker 2 Now, it's a little bit different. Now, some of the operatives who were already based in the U.S.
are moving into Canada. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's interesting because

Speaker 2 when I was,

Speaker 2 I gained access to a few group chats that were run by the cartels on WhatsApp, Telegram. WhatsApp is like the starting point just because of the way the encryption is set up.

Speaker 2 They don't want to talk about too much, but because it is so accessible, it's a great way to hire people, recruit people.

Speaker 2 And so I gained access to a group chat. where they were basically recruiting people to work as enforcers for them, cigarios,

Speaker 2 you know, managing certain logistics of the business, whether that's paying off authority, finding out who's who, getting the arms, finding the dealers, contracting straw buyers, whatever it may be.

Speaker 2 When I was in this group chat,

Speaker 2 the first thing that stood out to me was two of the phone numbers were Canadian area codes. One was Alberta and one was Toronto.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 one of the individuals

Speaker 2 was directly asked if he could take out a hit if need be.

Speaker 2 He would be paid $55,000 Canadian. He would have to buy a Glock with

Speaker 2 three mags, I think it was. I have this screenshot.
And

Speaker 2 there could be no kids around. And if he goes to the house, make sure that no family is around of the individual that needs to be killed.

Speaker 2 And so.

Speaker 2 For a lot of these people,

Speaker 2 money was put on the table right away. You get into this group chat, whether that means you're going to be moving fentanyl pills into the US, whether that means you may have to take out a hit

Speaker 2 or pay someone off, conduct any sort of logistics, it was, this is how much you'll make, take it or leave it. And that was, for a lot of people, that first incentive.
Now, for a lot of other folks,

Speaker 2 it was,

Speaker 2 I'm going to be a part of the cartel.

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 for a lot of these people, they're kind of outcasts

Speaker 2 and they feel like power. They're like an aggressive person.

Speaker 2 And a lot of those type of guys who kind of had like a violent past, boxers,

Speaker 2 were being hired as cicarios.

Speaker 2 And the way they would be recruited into these group chats was either through social media.

Speaker 2 So a lot of fake postings or postings on Facebook or TikTok that would allude to what they could become a part of, but also just through

Speaker 2 knowing someone.

Speaker 2 Word of mouth. Interesting.

Speaker 2 Hey, my niece is dating this guy. He's been here from Mexico for around six years.
He's making a ton of money. I know you're strapped for cash.

Speaker 2 Would you, if you get a package and you just have to drive it across the border, go Go to the Sears Walmart parking lot Someone's gonna pick it up.

Speaker 2 Don't look inside and you're gonna get paid seventy thousand dollars

Speaker 2 Just go and come back people will do it

Speaker 3 Damn and Canada's not doing you you actually on the outline I saw that they are also recruiting from the Balkans. Yeah, did I see that?

Speaker 2 Yeah Balkan states like

Speaker 2 Armenian guys too, a lot of ex-gang members from over there and in Australia too. I mean,

Speaker 3 at this point. They're recruiting from Australia.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Australia, England, like it seems like there's like this thing with the Commonwealth places. It's like...

Speaker 3 Why are they going to the, I mean, why are they...

Speaker 3 It sounds like there's no shortage of people that want to join the cartel.

Speaker 2 There isn't.

Speaker 3 And that's what you. So why are they recruiting out of the Balkans?

Speaker 2 Because they need an international stronghold. And so when you have people who don't look like you, don't talk like you, and come from different training backgrounds,

Speaker 2 they can fly

Speaker 2 under the radar a lot better. And they have access to different areas that certain Mexican operatives do not.

Speaker 2 So, say for example, uh,

Speaker 2 not that long ago, there was a blatant daylight shooting in

Speaker 2 Vancouver. A guy was killed, and he was he was shot

Speaker 2 by a

Speaker 2 Canadian man from Quebec, super French name.

Speaker 2 This individual had spent years in Mexico and Colombia and was said to eventually work for the cartel, go to Canada, and take out this hit.

Speaker 2 Now, how much better is it that you have a Canadian national taking out a hit? He knows where to go. He knows how law enforcement operates.
He's from this place. He has access.

Speaker 2 The chances that there's going to be a fuck-up are a lot less.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 also, if you know that Canadian law enforcement is not directly attacking the cartels when an associate who's not Mexican is operating for them, of course,

Speaker 2 you're going to have a

Speaker 2 foreign person, a Canadian or an Australian or someone from England, take out the hit or commit the crime.

Speaker 2 Hmm.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 are they trying to

Speaker 3 spread into Europe and Armenia and Australia as well? I mean, could that be another reason? Yes. They're making connections.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and there are already interpol reports of particularly CGNG having activity, having strongholds in Australia, in Western Europe,

Speaker 2 in Kenya. There was a, people think I'm crazy when I talk about this, but they found a CGNG-linked lab in Kenya, in Africa.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 What the hell are they doing over there?

Speaker 2 Producing and trafficking.

Speaker 2 It's an international operation. And to me, it makes sense that they are moving everywhere.
Because it's like what I said, the catch me if you can.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to me with the, I mean, I guess it would.

Speaker 3 In Kenya, I mean, I don't know how many people would be able to afford fentanyl, you know, but.

Speaker 2 But it's not about domestic distribution,

Speaker 2 it's about that production there and being so far removed from where the hawkeye view is, which is Canada, U.S., and Mexico, and being able to move the product outwards from there.

Speaker 3 You know, the other thing is, I'm not saying you're wrong by any means.

Speaker 2 It's okay, you care.

Speaker 3 To me, it doesn't make sense why they would pay a Canadian $55,000

Speaker 3 Canadian dollar to

Speaker 3 put a hit out on to assassinate somebody or fly somebody in from the Balkans or Australia when we do know they don't give a shit about their people dying. You know, I mean, we've seen that for years.

Speaker 3 You know, they give them five minutes of training and send them off to their work. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But, you know, and so it's just, it's not very cost-effective for them to

Speaker 3 have to pay that price when they can just send somebody, you know, from a little Pueblo that has nothing into Mexico, into Canada, U.S.,

Speaker 3 anywhere they want, you know.

Speaker 2 It's certainly not cost-effective, but I think logistically it works for them.

Speaker 2 You have a Canadian who's willing to commit these crimes for you on their soil.

Speaker 2 You completely avoid detection of that being the cartel.

Speaker 3 It does. Until those people get interrogated.

Speaker 2 I mean, and they say they've been working for the cartels. And then in the RCMP information, information, they're saying, well, yeah, this person had connections with Mexican criminals.

Speaker 2 But Canadian authority isn't going after those criminals who put out the hit.

Speaker 3 Man,

Speaker 3 is there anything that Canada has been doing to combat this at all? Are they just trying to sweep it under the rug?

Speaker 2 I think they're sweeping it under the rug. I think since Trump tried to say, you know, we got a crackdown on the northern border and Cache Patel has been putting a lot of pressure,

Speaker 2 they've been doing these sort of public things like, you know, the appointing a fentanyl czar,

Speaker 2 amping up the amount of border patrol at the northern border.

Speaker 2 But in terms of really getting to the root of the problem,

Speaker 2 it's being swept under the rug. And a lot of folks that I've spoken to in Canadian law enforcement agree with that notion.

Speaker 3 Interesting.

Speaker 2 And if I speak to any of my sources that are, you know, part of associates with the cartel operating in Canada.

Speaker 2 They feel like it's business as usual.

Speaker 3 Are they infiltrating?

Speaker 3 I mean, how big are they getting into Canada? I mean, like in the U.S., we know they're starting to get involved with politics, local police departments.

Speaker 3 A lot of them are joining the military to get the training and then get out.

Speaker 2 I don't think that's happening yet.

Speaker 2 And because I don't think it's necessary, I think that the way that they've set up shop is working for them and they're not going to fix something that isn't broken and risk losing what they have.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. And it's also important to keep in mind that there is evidence and, you know, there's all these reports that come out from CSIS

Speaker 2 about Chinese intervention in Canadian politics and elections. And if the Mexican curtails are already directly working with the Chinese, there's no need for them to go above them and

Speaker 2 try to get involved with Canadian politics. That's being done for them.

Speaker 3 Interesting. All right, let's take a quick break.
When we come back, I know I want to talk about some of the other businesses that the cartels are starting to set up outside of fentanyl.

Speaker 6 Join me for our first ever live stream debrief hosted exclusively on Vigilance Elite Patreon.

Speaker 6 We'll unpack the China-Taiwan conflict, reveal insights from our Dubai trip with GBRS groups, JCAL, and break down the Iran-Israel conflict's impact on everyday citizens.

Speaker 6 Stream it for free on July 1st, 6 p.m. Central Time on Vigilance Elite Patreon.

Speaker 3 All right, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to dive into, you know, the first diversification of all of the different cartel businesses.

Speaker 3 So I've talked about this a couple of times before. It's been, I think it's been about two years, though, since I've covered this topic.
But

Speaker 3 last I heard, they were getting into the avocado trade. Yes.
What else are they diving into?

Speaker 2 Okay, crude oil, avocado, and agriculture is the biggest ones. So

Speaker 2 after human smuggling and drug trafficking, the second most profitable form of revenue for the cartels is wachiko, the crude oil theft. This has been going on for forever.

Speaker 2 And we have seen a lot of mass tragedies due to this, even though it's not, you know, a illicit substance like fentanyl.

Speaker 2 The way they tap into these pipelines in a lot of unsecured areas in smaller towns where these pipelines run through,

Speaker 2 if they tap into it wrong or if they do it time and time again, it leads to a mass explosion. And these headline in Mexico all the time and have been for decades.
Now, what's happening now is

Speaker 2 actually just a a few weeks ago, three CGNG operatives were sanctioned by the U.S.

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 trafficking stolen crude oil from Mexico into the U.S.

Speaker 2 And certain smaller American oil companies were buying this oil. And they were bringing it into the U.S.
labeled as waste oil. So it was going completely undetected.

Speaker 2 A lot of it was going into the port of Brownsville in Texas.

Speaker 2 And this for them is

Speaker 2 a billion-dollar billion-dollar business. Waste oil?

Speaker 3 What the hell is waste oil?

Speaker 2 They were calling it waste oil.

Speaker 6 So the U.S.

Speaker 3 is just letting people import waste oil to dump deer?

Speaker 2 Apparently, because they were bringing this in in trucks and it was being taken to smaller refineries where then it was known that it was not waste oil. It was actually raw crude oil.
And

Speaker 2 that was giving them around $3 billion a year at one point.

Speaker 3 How much money are they making off of this?

Speaker 2 Like billions of dollars, like $300? $3 billion a year. $3 billion.
There's like

Speaker 2 17,000

Speaker 2 tankers worth of oil that are being stolen per day in Mexico.

Speaker 3 Are you serious? 17,000 tankers a day?

Speaker 2 That's what Pemex numbers show,

Speaker 2 which is the Mexican oil company. It has a monopoly, Pemex.

Speaker 3 Wow. Do you think they'll just try to take, do you think they'll just try to take control of the pipeline itself?

Speaker 2 They do. That's exactly what they do.
And a lot of National Guard and local police are on the cartel payroll so that they can go and tap into these pipelines and no one's going to say anything.

Speaker 3 Actually, just talking about actually like tapping into the pipeline? Yes. Or I'm talking about just taking control of the entire pipeline and piping it to

Speaker 2 the, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Probably not. Okay.
That's that's a whole, I mean, it could be happening, but I haven't done any reporting on that.

Speaker 2 I mean, from what I know and what I've seen is them physically going and tapping into the pipeline and stealing it and putting it into the tanker and driving that across.

Speaker 2 And just a few days ago, 11 members of the National Guard were arrested because they were caught red-handed at a pipeline stealing the oil.

Speaker 3 And they're just getting this through the U.S. border? Yeah.
Just driving it across. 17,000 tankers a day are coming across the U.S.
border.

Speaker 2 I don't know if 17,000 tankers are moving across the border a day, but that's how much is being stolen per day. So it's obviously going somewhere at a certain point in time.

Speaker 2 And this is major profits for the cartel, especially with this crackdown at the southern border on fentanyl and human smuggling, which is, you know, major financial pipeline for them.

Speaker 2 Let's go make money off a different pipeline.

Speaker 3 I mean, do we import, we don't import any gas from Mexico, do we?

Speaker 3 It's do we like legal, legally?

Speaker 2 Legally, yeah. So a lot of the a lot of the crude oil from Mexico goes to the U.S.
and is fined in the U.S. and refined in the U.S.
and Mexico buys it back.

Speaker 3 So this is a relatively easy operation to bust into.

Speaker 2 Mexico doesn't have the refinery, it doesn't have the infrastructure to do it. They buy the gas back.

Speaker 3 Okay, so they, so we buy the gas or we refine the gas and then pipe it back into Mexico. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 that's, that's one that I talk about a lot because

Speaker 2 the problem with this is they can do it so under the radar and they're experts at it at this point because it's been going on for so long and there's so much impunity around in corruption.

Speaker 2 So many people, the right people are paid off. The right people, whether that's politicians, National Guard, police are being, are profiting off of this trade.
And so

Speaker 2 the way to crack down on this is so murky because it's not, you know, you don't have this fentanyl pill that's going to kill someone and that's a controlled substance.

Speaker 2 It's oil and it's something that everybody needs.

Speaker 2 And if the way to get this oil is by going into these

Speaker 2 undetected regions where it's just a small town and law enforcement knows what's going on,

Speaker 2 it's very easy to access for them.

Speaker 3 Do you think that this will?

Speaker 3 I mean, oil and gas is a a big business exactly and some of the most powerful people in the world uh are in the most powerful people in the world are in you know oil and gas and so i guess what i'm asking is i mean do they do do

Speaker 3 your sources believe that the

Speaker 2 oil and gas sector of their cartel business will overtake fentanyl and drug trafficking if push comes to shove and they really have to rely on something that isn't drugs, they could certainly move all of their operations to oil.

Speaker 3 Why wouldn't they just want to anyways? Why

Speaker 3 it seems so much, you think the drug trade is more than the gas trade.

Speaker 2 It's more profitable for them.

Speaker 3 Right now or 10 years down the road.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's very hard to say. And it depends where and how they want to distribute their resources.
If they want to fully focus on that, they could make it their number one earner.

Speaker 3 I mean, because the only reason I'm asking is from an American aspect. I mean,

Speaker 3 that doesn't really affect us. That affects

Speaker 3 the gas

Speaker 3 industry in Mexico. Exactly.
That only enhances U.S.

Speaker 2 refining. Which is why I thought it was interesting when these three CGNG members were sanctioned for importing this stolen crude oil, none of the U.S.
refineries faced any

Speaker 2 sanctions or legal action. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And of course, investigators certainly knew or know

Speaker 2 which

Speaker 2 refineries and companies were buying this stolen oil, but nothing happened there on that front. Why? Because this is not killing Americans.

Speaker 3 It's, I mean, it's legitimately just not our problem.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 That's the

Speaker 3 Mexican government could take care of that.

Speaker 2 Exactly. It's not like the drugs.

Speaker 3 What else are they diving into?

Speaker 2 Agriculture. Agriculture has been huge.

Speaker 2 And more than ever before, I mean, the three major points of agriculture where all avocados that you guys eat here and limes that you guys use is coming from Michoacán, Jalisco, Nayarit,

Speaker 2 and those are CGG strongholds.

Speaker 2 So what's been happening for the longest time and particularly now as they're trying to diversify their revenue streams.

Speaker 2 Cartel operatives are going in to these ranches, these orchards, and telling the farmers who have had had these orchards in their families for generations, because I don't know if you know, but you know, raising one avocado tree, if it's successful, which is also just difficult within itself, can take up to 15 years.

Speaker 2 So, this takes a lot of dedication to be an avocado farmer. And it's a very profitable fruit.
They call it green gold for something.

Speaker 2 And cartels are going in. Armed men will show up and say, listen, you're either going to pay me X percentage of whatever you're profiting off of your avocado exports, or this becomes ours.

Speaker 2 And a lot of these farmers, they're doing well for themselves, you know,

Speaker 2 in terms of earning potential in Mexico generally, right? They're making an honest income. They're working their asses off.
The whole family is part of this business.

Speaker 2 They're employing people from their town

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 they're making good money to support themselves. So then you have our men come and say, either get out or pay me an amount that they typically cannot afford because it's not that much money.

Speaker 2 And you're saying, now, give me 80% of your earnings. How are you supposed to maintain your orchards if you're losing more than half of your income to organized crime?

Speaker 2 So a lot of these people have to abandon their farms.

Speaker 2 There are, this is hundreds of avocado orchards, particularly in Michuacan, have been abandoned by their rightful owner, and cartels are now working those orchards.

Speaker 2 Or the very people who own these places are now being employed by the cartel to go and farm the land, work the land.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there are certain produce companies in the U.S. who are knowingly, some not knowingly, but others knowingly purchasing avocados from cartel-run avocado orchards in Mexico.
And I reached out to these.

Speaker 2 I actually had

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 2 really significant produce person, someone who worked for the U.S. government as an inspector before.
So the U.S.

Speaker 2 sends inspectors to these regions to make sure, you know, for pesticide control, pest control. whatever the case may be, and even for ethics.
So is organized crime operating here?

Speaker 2 And I got in contact with someone who did this job.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I got a list of produce company names

Speaker 2 that were knowingly, are knowingly importing avocados and limes from farms that are now run by the cartels blatantly.

Speaker 2 And when I reached out to them and said, you know, what is your guys' due process to ensure that you aren't supporting organized crime? No comment. We don't talk about this.

Speaker 2 Of course you won't. But wouldn't you want to clear your name? Wouldn't you want to show to the American avocado consumer that those avocados aren't blood fruit?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, it sounds what you're describing sounds really

Speaker 3 very similar to the diamond trade. Of course.
But,

Speaker 3 I mean, with that being said, it's...

Speaker 3 I mean, how many, how many... legitimate avocado farms are there left in Mexico.

Speaker 2 I talked to

Speaker 3 the only only reason I'm asking is Luis Chaparro.

Speaker 3 I've had him on several times here, and he talked about the avocado trade with the cartels and how Super Bowl seeds and they'll create a shortage to spike the prices and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 But I mean, so, I mean, do these companies, do these U.S.-based fruit companies, do they have,

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 do they even have anywhere else to buy this stuff from? Or is it just cartels?

Speaker 2 At this point, it's likely just cartels.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the cartels manipulated that because

Speaker 2 it got to a point when the U.S. agricultural inspectors were going to Mexico to inspect these farms, then they were being threatened.
And so then the U.S.

Speaker 2 stopped sending inspectors to these regions, which meant it was a free-for-all for the cartels to take over every single orchard that existed there. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, an inspector isn't going to stop that. No.

Speaker 2 No, that's not even his job. That's not their job.

Speaker 3 So is the Mexican government doing anything about this at all?

Speaker 2 Okay. They sent in

Speaker 2 when this, a bunch of farmers banded together because they will do that. You know, they're tough, they're hardworking, and they banded together and said, we can't take this anymore.

Speaker 2 The cartels are taking over our livelihoods, they're taking over our businesses. So Mexican government sent in a couple thousand troops to these regions to try and protect them.

Speaker 2 But those very troops were getting paid off by the cartel too. They were also being threatened.
There were shootouts at these farms.

Speaker 2 And typically when that happens in Mexico, unfortunately,

Speaker 2 government backs down.

Speaker 3 How about the water trade?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's another thing, especially in these same regions, because it's very important for farmers, you know, for the irrigation, but also just for the people living in these regions.

Speaker 2 They've monopolized water. They monopolized Wi-Fi.

Speaker 2 Even Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi.
Yeah, they put up their own Wi-Fi wires in certain towns in these regions so you can only purchase from the cartel provider. No shit.
They cut the cords from there.

Speaker 2 There's other Wi-Fi providers in Mexico like Izzy and

Speaker 2 there's other ones, right? Of legitimate.

Speaker 2 And those wires are being cut. The infrastructure is being destroyed.
Cartel puts up their own infrastructure. Now you have to only get your Wi-Fi from us.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 Because they have communications, they have agriculture, they have oil and gas.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's every single aspect of basic life, every necessity.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 how is the relationship with, what is their relationship like with the Chinese that are piping in all of the precursors to make fentanyl?

Speaker 3 You had mentioned a lot of them are going to Canada now, but I mean,

Speaker 3 Seems just interviewed Tom Holman, you know, the borders are, and he said that the, I believe, I have to reference the interview, but I believe he said said that that the southern border is 96.8 percent secured do you do you agree with that it's a very high number and i do believe that the southern border is a lot more secured than it was

Speaker 2 six months ago certainly uh the price of being smuggled across the border has gone up like if you want to pay for a coyote to take you across

Speaker 2 less coyotes are operating because

Speaker 2 of just the sheer amount of vigilance at the southern border.

Speaker 2 And U.S. and Mexico numbers both show that fentanyl trafficking has gone down at the southern border.

Speaker 2 96% is very high. To say it's 96% secured, I mean, how do you even quantify how secure a border is?

Speaker 2 But in terms of

Speaker 3 the number of people coming across.

Speaker 2 The number of people coming across, right? But of course, you don't track every single person that's coming across. Has it gone down? Certainly.
And numbers on both sides of the border show that.

Speaker 2 And if you just go to that border,

Speaker 2 it looks so different than it did six months ago. I mean, you have tons of CBP helicopter patrol constantly.

Speaker 2 Mexico deployed an additional, I think,

Speaker 2 12,000 National Guard to secure their side of the border. And the threat of tariffs and

Speaker 2 U.S. intervention in Mexico really did push Mexican President Claudia Schienbaum to act on the southern border because she didn't want to see a Mexico where there was American intervention.

Speaker 2 She wanted to maintain autonomy. Fair enough.

Speaker 3 Why don't you think she wants any intervention?

Speaker 2 Because she wants Mexico to stay Mexico. She doesn't want to see American forces coming in.
She doesn't want Mexican people to feel like their own government can't deal with it by themselves.

Speaker 3 And don't they already feel like that?

Speaker 2 100%,

Speaker 2 but you can't admit a loss. Another point to that is to protect people who are in her administration who have narcoties.

Speaker 3 Does she have narcoties?

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 3 100%.

Speaker 2 I believe she definitely has narcoties.

Speaker 3 What makes you believe that?

Speaker 2 She's with the Morena Party.

Speaker 2 So many

Speaker 2 political figures in this party have now, just recently, been sanctioned by the U.S., had their visas revoked by the U.S., have been tied to shell companies in the U.S.

Speaker 2 that are cleaning money for the cartels.

Speaker 2 This was the most violent Mexican election in the history of Mexican elections. Why were people dying at the polls? Why were armed men showing up to voting stations and destroying the ballots?

Speaker 2 and the ballot boxes. And then prior to her,

Speaker 2 Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the previous president of Mexico, who basically took Sheehanbaum and put her up and said, everyone who voted for me vote for her. And she won by a landslide.

Speaker 2 No one has ever voted by that margin in a Mexican federal election ever before.

Speaker 2 He had been reported to have received a significant multi-million dollar payout from the Sinaloa cartel.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 So if you have this party that just has so many rotten apples, you're telling me it's not spoiling the bunch and that the main figurehead of this party the president of mexico who could if she really wanted to say

Speaker 2 the cartels we're ending them everyone is suffering on both sides of the border and globally okay we are going to crack down and that's not really happening it's a soft stance it's certainly not as soft as her predecessor His his moral or his slogan was, abrasos no valasos, hugs not bullets.

Speaker 2 She didn't take that on, which I think was great because what do you mean? You're going to, you know,

Speaker 2 it just didn't, it made no sense.

Speaker 2 But do I think she has narcotized? And people come for me a lot when I say that because they say, like, you're just shitting on a president who cares about the Mexican people.

Speaker 2 I think if she really cared about the Mexican people, the cartel crackdown would be to the next

Speaker 3 level. I think if she really cared about the Mexican people,

Speaker 3 it would be a positive to get the U.S. in there to help solve this problem.

Speaker 2 And then the U.S.

Speaker 2 has this watch list of narco-politicians.

Speaker 2 A source from your government actually gave me a few names. I published that list.

Speaker 2 And then exactly a month later, One of the people that I had on that list, which was the governor of Baja California, Marina del Pilar, her U.S. tourist visa and her husband's were revoked.

Speaker 2 And there was no reason given as to why, but there's certainly an investigation going. She's also part of the Morena Party.

Speaker 2 And then the governor of Sinaloa, Ruben Rochamoya, who, you know, a lot of people have, a lot of people who seek the truth have beef with him because

Speaker 2 he has been a part of a lot of shady dealings. And

Speaker 2 how is your state going to erupt into this war zone where the cartels basically control every aspect of politics, law enforcement, and daily life for the citizens? And

Speaker 2 yet you're sitting high and mighty as if nothing is happening.

Speaker 2 Everything is okay. Everything is okay.
And the U.S. names him.

Speaker 2 And the president of Mexico goes up in public in her morning press conferences and defends him. Says, no, no, no.
He's doing his job. And honestly.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 And look,

Speaker 2 people can say all they want. Well, maybe she doesn't directly have ties with narcos.

Speaker 2 Okay, but if she's defending the very people who do, who are under her administration, does that not make you just as guilty? I mean, tell me about your integrity and

Speaker 2 your responsibility to protect the citizens of the country and ensure that they have a solid quality of life while protecting the very people who are ruining that.

Speaker 3 have you heard of

Speaker 3 I've heard a lot of rumors that former SOCOM and JSOC special operators are going down and training cartel. Have you, veterans, have you heard that?

Speaker 2 Like, not part of the Green Beret program? Because there is a program. The U.S.
does train

Speaker 2 Mexican military, and then they kind of form their own.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, I'm talking about guys that have separated from the military that are going down there.

Speaker 2 And directly training cartels. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 How much of that is going on?

Speaker 2 If you go to Tamaulipas right now, it borders Texas and Mexico,

Speaker 2 there are cartel operatives who can expertly show you how to arm,

Speaker 2 you know, put together, arm, and put a minigun on top of a vehicle and use it like an expert.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that isn't common knowledge, and that isn't something that, you know, like guerrilla warfare teaches you. These people are directly being taught by USX military.

Speaker 2 I've heard, and we were talking about this on the way here:

Speaker 2 Israelis, people who know how to

Speaker 2 use high-level arms

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 know a fair bit about high-level warfare tactics.

Speaker 2 If the cartels weren't trained by these very people,

Speaker 2 they would not be able to function at the level that they are.

Speaker 3 Do you have any sources that have told you that former soft guys are heading down there to train?

Speaker 2 Yeah, particularly in Mexican states that border Texas.

Speaker 2 There are cartel operatives in Tamaulipas who

Speaker 2 will blatantly say, the Gringo taught us this.

Speaker 2 Or do it the way the Gringos do it.

Speaker 3 Well, that's terrifying.

Speaker 2 And that has to do not only like with the miniguns, but the IEDs that they have.

Speaker 2 Their IEDs now are just next level.

Speaker 2 Drone operations. They're using drones that now

Speaker 2 initially they were.

Speaker 2 attaching

Speaker 2 bombs, IEDs to the drones, flying them in, and then the whole contraption would blow up.

Speaker 2 Now they're doing it in a way where the drone goes in, it drops the IED, and then the drone goes back out, and they're saving a lot of technology by doing this, right?

Speaker 2 And it's making it, it's fast-tracking the

Speaker 2 operation.

Speaker 2 They were taught by Americans.

Speaker 3 They were taught by Americans how to do that, too. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And with the anti-drone technology. That came from overseas.
Well, that came from abroad.

Speaker 3 They have anti-drone technology. What kind of anti-drone?

Speaker 2 They they have so i actually i wish i could show you the video of it uh they have like the the big uh drone blockers so if there is a drone flying in the area they can completely disable that drone and and make it

Speaker 2 have it cease to function wow what other kind of tech are that that's where i wanted to lead into is that you know warfare is changing uh in a astronomical basis they're at a point in their warfare where it's they've never had this level of access before and expertise.

Speaker 2 They have technology that you would never have imagined cartels to have. I mean, with the amount of money and access they have to certain people and expertise, certainly they can do this.

Speaker 2 They can learn how to operate anti-drone technology, how to use drones multiple times and drop IEDs, how to set up a minigun.

Speaker 2 But they're also, you know, they're using technology that it's not typical warfare technology. So

Speaker 2 even in certain regions,

Speaker 2 they have like cell phone blockers, but just set up throughout the town, too. So you walk in and all of a sudden, either your phone doesn't work or it's immediately tapped.

Speaker 2 Even the way they're putting Pegasus on people's phones.

Speaker 3 They're putting Pegasus on people's phones.

Speaker 2 Oh, Mexico, and particularly Mexican journalists, it's like you are the number one victim of having Pegasus on your phone.

Speaker 3 No kidding. Yeah.

Speaker 2 They got Pegasus from Israel.

Speaker 3 You want to talk about Pegasus real quick?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we can talk about. Yeah, Pegasus, it's like the number one phone hacking technology, and it doesn't take anything at all.
It's literally, I get a message on WhatsApp.

Speaker 2 If I just press on that contact that sent me the message, Pegasus is now in my phone and they have access to everything, all of the data, even the metadata that's in my phone and can track me, can listen in to me, everything.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 just recently, actually, the Mexican president's phone was hacked. It was a phone that she said she never used, and it was just like a personal phone.
But if

Speaker 2 you're able to hack the president's phone,

Speaker 2 anyone is at risk.

Speaker 2 And Mexico is a main consumer

Speaker 2 user of Pegasus technology.

Speaker 3 Who are they deploying all this stuff against? Is it cartel on cartel for the most part?

Speaker 2 No, it's anyone that threatens their operations. So, of of course, yes, they're cartel adversaries, but politicians, law enforcement, journalists,

Speaker 2 even sometimes people who are working for them, their own straw buyers, people who they feel like they can't fully trust. Stay Frosty put some Pegasus on his phone.

Speaker 3 What about the drones?

Speaker 2 What about the drones?

Speaker 3 Who are they deploying that on?

Speaker 2 They're deploying the drones against Mexican forces.

Speaker 2 They, they, If there is an operation that's going down,

Speaker 2 they know Mexican forces are going to be in this area, they will even trap them.

Speaker 2 So lead Mexican forces, this happened not so long ago, an example of this, lead Mexican forces to believe that a key figure is here or a key lab is here, and they will arm that location with

Speaker 2 IEDs and have drones ready to go in there. Mexican forces will get there and they get exploded.
Okay.

Speaker 3 So they hit them with IEDs and then do a drone swarm. Yeah.
How big are the drone swarms?

Speaker 3 Any idea?

Speaker 2 It really depends on like which cartel is operating this, but for the most part, they're not that large. They're, you're, they have just like, even just like regular drones.

Speaker 2 They're using like even like the DJI drones, or they're getting the drones from China that are like a knockoff version and attaching bombs to it and just dropping those in.

Speaker 2 And you'll even see videos of when they're flying, they're kind of weighed down a bit.

Speaker 3 So nothing like a hundred drones coming all at once, like somebody's Ukraine.

Speaker 2 At least not yet.

Speaker 3 How far out do you think we are before that starts happening?

Speaker 2 It depends if the U.S. puts boots on the ground in Mexico.

Speaker 2 Because I don't think Mexican forces will ever push it to a point where cartels feel like that's how hard they need to hit them.

Speaker 3 You don't? No. You don't think so? No.

Speaker 2 There's too much at risk and there's too much for them to lose. I think,

Speaker 2 you know, something that really stood out to me.

Speaker 3 What's the risk? What do you mean there's too much for them to lose?

Speaker 2 For Mexican special forces to be at risk of danger.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, when I was in Sinaloa, they had just, the day that I got there, we went to the base and they had just brought in reinforcements for National Guard.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 a lot of the people were very young And they were literally coming into a place where they were ready to face the cartels head-on.

Speaker 2 I mean, every night it was just like you would just see the fireworks, the shootouts.

Speaker 2 In the morning, there would be dead bodies lining major highways with notes, sending messages. And so these guys were coming in

Speaker 2 knowing that they had to take on a very desperate cartel head on and try to stop some extreme level of violence with very little experience. They were very young.

Speaker 2 And some of them looked so nervous and even fearful to be there.

Speaker 2 And if there is that level of fear, then when you ask me, are these guys going to

Speaker 2 go in and take them head on to a point where the cartels will completely amp up and you have a hundred drone storms going in there and just taking out Mexican forces?

Speaker 2 No, because I don't think the Mexican forces

Speaker 2 would get to that level.

Speaker 2 I mean, hugs, not bullets was a policy for so long that now to switch that up and go have the pendulum swing to the exact opposite where it's like, no, we are going to take them on.

Speaker 2 I don't think the people who are in the forces, you know, I don't want to undermine it and I don't mean it like this, but

Speaker 2 I don't think the training and the morale is even there to be like, I'm going in to die for this. We're taking these guys out.

Speaker 2 So no,

Speaker 2 Mexican cartels won't likely, unless U.S.

Speaker 2 forces come into Mexico, get to a level where they believe they have to completely amp up operations where it's like Ukraine-Russia style, simply due to the fact that Mexican forces aren't going to push them to that level.

Speaker 3 So you don't think that they're proactive enough to

Speaker 3 start to stock up on drones, start getting 3D printers and printing their own drones and all of these things. Proactive, yes.

Speaker 2 Or if U.S.

Speaker 3 forces do come in.

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 3 You don't think they'll deploy them, though, unless

Speaker 2 U.S.

Speaker 3 steps in. Interesting.

Speaker 2 Because they won't have a need to. But are they proactively stocking up? 100%, yes.
And I've been told about this

Speaker 2 from the very people in charge of ensuring that they are armed.

Speaker 3 Do they have strategic locations where they're stocking up? I mean, in,

Speaker 3 I mean, since you're saying that they are proactive, do they have strategic locations where they're stocking up on

Speaker 3 tech, weapons, all this kind of stuff?

Speaker 3 Do they think they might know what it might look like, where the fight's going to begin?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 First and foremost, there are safe houses throughout all of Mexico where they're stocking up on this, and particularly, surprisingly enough, in a lot of tourist destinations, because it's easy access.

Speaker 2 A lot of these places have water access.

Speaker 2 It goes under the radar. So, Puerto Vallarta, Acapulco,

Speaker 2 these

Speaker 2 are cities

Speaker 2 that the cartel is using to their advantage to stock up. And because they already have a lot of operations going on there, and because they know that

Speaker 2 those areas won't be hit as a war zone because they're tourist hotspots. So, Mexico will never want to scare away the tourism sector.

Speaker 2 So, if they have a safe house in a place like Puerto Vallarta, which is also the CJNG stronghold, filled with arms, filled with tech, drones, 3D printers, you name it,

Speaker 2 they can get there, they can get the access, they can get someone to bring it out to them, and it won't be a problem. Now, in terms of the places that would be hit, like say U.S.

Speaker 2 operators stepped into Mexico, again, it won't be those particular regions. It will be Sinaloa, it will be Culiacán, it will be Michoacán, it will be Guerrero, it will be Tamaulipas.

Speaker 2 Areas where Veracruz, and there's a port in Veracruz.

Speaker 3 You're saying that's where we would deploy? Yes. I think that's probably where we would deploy conventional guys if we did that.

Speaker 3 But as far as strategic strikes, when you bring in tier one units, I mean, those guys are going to go everywhere. They don't, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 I agree. And I think that

Speaker 2 the cartels certainly know that.

Speaker 2 They're bracing for it. A lot of them are worried that that's going to happen if it hasn't already.
There's some level of American intervention in Mexico.

Speaker 2 I mean, we've seen it with the CIA planes that are flying. They obviously have Mexican permission to do that, but there's CIA planes flying across the northern Mexican states.
The U.S.

Speaker 2 is certainly gathering intel and they're working bilaterally with Mexico. How long will that last or how far is that going?

Speaker 2 Not to the point that Mexico would like to see. But the U.S.
knows that they have to withhold some information and a lot of intelligence in order for

Speaker 2 their operations not to fail. Because the one wrong person finds out about it, whether that's in government, whether that's in Mexican intelligence, and the whole operation goes to shit.

Speaker 2 Even with El Chapo's family going into Tijuana or going across the border and receiving sort of safe haven in the U.S.,

Speaker 2 Mexico didn't know about that. Mexico hasn't received information on that.
And

Speaker 2 the head of national security for Mexico made a point to say, we aren't in the loop with this.

Speaker 3 How do you think we defeat him? I'm just curious. Have you thought about that all?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think about that all the time. And people ask me that all the time.
And people ask that because they want to see it happen.

Speaker 2 But how does that happen?

Speaker 2 It's it would be a multifaceted approach. Like there's no silver bullet.
We both know this.

Speaker 2 And it's very complicated because they're so they have their claws so enthralled in every aspect, you know, whether it's the ways that they're diversifying their revenue in oil and gas and whatever it is, but also in politics and internationally.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 to defeat this

Speaker 2 Fortune 500 corporation that's armed to the max and is always a step ahead, it would be a matter of

Speaker 2 cracking down on extreme intelligence gathering, finding out where the main guys are, dismantling them and their local networks, dismantling their online propaganda projects.

Speaker 2 tackling the people particularly who are under the radar and in charge of laundering a lot of the money, setting up the shell companies,

Speaker 2 the remittance sites that are allowing these cartels ways to launder their money internationally,

Speaker 2 the banks, it goes so deep. It wouldn't just be a matter of go get the big guy like when they got El Mayo this summer.

Speaker 2 You have to tackle the

Speaker 2 finances.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think a lot about this.

Speaker 3 I i mean i don't think you know you know we just did that for 20 years and in the war on terror you know taking out leaders i think the number two had like a two-week life expectancy but every time you take one out it's new ones in new ones in and so i don't think taking out just the leadership would work what do you think needs to happen you know i don't know i mean if we infiltrated it would be extremely bloody just because of the amount of people that are involved in the cartel.

Speaker 3 It wouldn't work if you just took out the leadership. You know,

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 3 from the years of covering this, you know, here and there and throughout with the different people that I've had on,

Speaker 3 I think that the way to do it would be, and I don't know, like I said, it's been a minute since I've talked about this, but I don't know how

Speaker 3 combative the cartels are towards each other anymore. But I think what I would do is I would probably create some type of a

Speaker 3 psychological operation operation that pits the cartels against each other and

Speaker 3 basically create a false narrative so that this cartel and this cartel hate each other and they go to war with each other and then find ways to intervene and you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 Well, that's basically what's happening in Sinaloa.

Speaker 3 Is that what's happening there?

Speaker 2 I mean, El Mayo was brought to the U.S., kidnapped allegedly. And now we're in real time watching the fall of the Sinaloa cartel.

Speaker 3 Just from Poland, Him? Yep.

Speaker 3 Well, then maybe.

Speaker 2 El Chapa was gone. Now El Mayo is gone.
And the infighting began. And just like a house of cards, it's falling in on itself.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 to the same point, CJNG swoops in, says we will make an alliance, Chapitos and us,

Speaker 2 which,

Speaker 2 you know, how real can that alliance be when they've been sworn enemies.

Speaker 2 And what's essentially going to happen is CJNG is is going to take over that faction and take over Sinaloa. So, great.

Speaker 2 What your suggestion was work to completely dismantle the Sinaloa cartel that has been operating for forever and was at one point one of the largest cartels in Mexican history. But now we have CGNG.

Speaker 2 So what you do, the same thing with them.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it just keeps going on and on until they're done.

Speaker 2 But the supply and demand for drugs.

Speaker 3 I mean, how many cartel members were eliminated you know in that scuffle between those

Speaker 2 oh at this point

Speaker 2 hundreds

Speaker 2 that were operating operating with the with the sinaloa cartel people of importance yeah

Speaker 3 dead man doesn't have to be people of importance i mean it all there's also a psychological factor as well where

Speaker 3 Maybe these weren't as brutal as they are now.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 enough people were eliminated for this cartel to not be functioning, basically, at this point.

Speaker 2 And for them to have to strike a deal with an enemy cartel, an adversary.

Speaker 3 How many big ones are there?

Speaker 2 Cartels in Mexico.

Speaker 2 Okay, well.

Speaker 3 Who are the three, the top three?

Speaker 2 I would say the top three:

Speaker 2 CGNG, the Golf Cartel,

Speaker 2 Cartel del Noreste, and well, Sinaloa. I'll keep it still there.

Speaker 3 And they're crumbling.

Speaker 2 Sinaloa. Sinaloa is crumbling.
Yeah, that's why I didn't put it in top three, but it would certainly be in top three.

Speaker 2 And I think the U.S. designated eight of them, if I'm not mistaken, as foreign terrorist organizations,

Speaker 2 which included all those I mentioned and a few more.

Speaker 2 But for example, like

Speaker 2 there were certain factions of cartels or fragmented versions of cartels that were not on that list and when you have fragmented groups of a previously stronghold cartel still existing those groups end up uh attaching on to a a larger cartel that's operating and it just makes them stronger because they gain more territory they gain access to more people more guns

Speaker 3 What do you think happens if we go to China and we're able to stop the precursors from being shipped?

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter because the Sinaloa cartel is now, it just came out a few months ago,

Speaker 2 is taking chemistry students from universities in Sinaloa and having them try to figure out how to make the precursors. And it's scratch.

Speaker 2 I don't know. We'll have to wait and see.

Speaker 2 I have a feeling that there's probably batches out on the streets or they're preparing batches that have these homemade precursors now. We'll see if it works.

Speaker 2 It's just like what happened with fentanyl. You have to see what happens with the streets.

Speaker 2 But from what I can tell and the people in Sinaloa that I've spoken to, they're still yet to make those precursors

Speaker 2 tangible enough to actually make the fentanyl from them. But they're already trying to cut out China.

Speaker 3 They're trying to cut China out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, by making the precursors.

Speaker 3 That's why they're doing it. They want to cut China.

Speaker 2 Cut China out. Increase your profits.
Cut out that middleman, not even a middleman, because they're supplying the necessary goods to to produce this deadly drug.

Speaker 2 But once the cartels figure out how to make the precursors,

Speaker 2 fentanyl will become more accessible than ever before, more deadly than ever before.

Speaker 2 And I think the U.S. certainly knows that the cartels are trying to make the precursors, which is

Speaker 2 definitely a big part of the reason of the crackdown.

Speaker 3 I mean, it seems like they wouldn't want to cut China out.

Speaker 2 Why not?

Speaker 3 Because just because, I mean,

Speaker 3 even though they don't have the same goals, I think the cartel is money and China is the reverse opium war.

Speaker 3 You know, I mean,

Speaker 3 they serve each other well, I guess is what I'm saying. And so that's, that's interesting that they want to cut them out.
I would think that they would want to align more, but

Speaker 2 I don't think it would be a, they would cut them out in a way where it ends on bad terms,

Speaker 2 but rather it would just streamline the fentanyl production. Would they still probably bring in some of the precursors? Yeah, supplement the

Speaker 2 supply.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it won't be to the same extent. And it wouldn't end with a bad taste in anyone's mouth because certainly they leverage a good relationship with China.

Speaker 3 Interesting.

Speaker 3 Let's take another quick break.

Speaker 3 This next one's for all you CarMax shoppers who just want to buy a car your way.

Speaker 2 Want to check some cars out in person?

Speaker 8 Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Want to look some more from your house?

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 6 Want to pretend you know about engines? Nah, I'll just chat with CarMax online instead.

Speaker 8 Wanna get pre-qualified from your couch. Woo! Wanna get that car ASAP?

Speaker 8 You wanna do it your way.

Speaker 8 Wanna drive?

Speaker 7 CarMax.

Speaker 3 All right, Katarina, we're back from the break. I wanted to ask you one thing too, um, that's just kind of

Speaker 3 out there about the TikTok influencer that God

Speaker 3 killed

Speaker 3 live streaming. Yeah,

Speaker 2 so Valeria was

Speaker 2 a famous influencer in Mexico. She had that buccona look, which is you know, the the body, small waist, you know, curves, long blonde hair from Guadalajara.

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 Guadalajara is a hotspot. It's the CGNG, you know, birthplace, Jalisco.

Speaker 2 And so, a lot of people followed her because she was pretty, but also because she was always on live streaming, keeping it pretty real. She would just eat her favorite snacks on there.

Speaker 2 And actually, since she was murdered, people in her memory have been like buying her favorite snacks and posting about it and to keep her alive.

Speaker 2 Now, she's on this live stream and and she's at her beauty salon that she owned

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 she tells the audience that

Speaker 2 she's been told she's receiving three gifts that day and the last one is going to be an expensive gift and so

Speaker 2 she's kind of talking through she's excited and a friend of hers is also at the salon with her

Speaker 2 and first she gets a starbucks A delivery man comes by, drops a Starbucks. And

Speaker 2 I think at that same delivery, she got a plushie of a pig.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's so interesting because in Mexico too, like a pig or a pig's head is really significant. You know, it's like puerco.

Speaker 2 So you get a lot of the times too, people will, in Guadalajara, even, when people take out hits, they'll leave a pig's head on top of that person.

Speaker 2 Show that person was dirty or vile, whatever the message it may be. And she got that plushie.

Speaker 2 And then she gets flowers and then she's waiting for her third most expensive gift.

Speaker 2 And she starts saying in the live stream, she goes, yame on die, like I'm, I'm creeped out. Something's wrong.
And you can tell she's kind of on edge.

Speaker 2 And she says, you know what, girls, I think I'm going to go. I'm kind of creeped out.
And her friend tells her behind the camera, no, you can't go. There's another gift coming for you.

Speaker 2 And some context to this is that Baleria had received gifts from viewers before.

Speaker 2 She really liked gifts and she would talk about how she would date men who would give her extravagant gifts and a lot of viewers would send her things.

Speaker 2 And someone comments in the chat, you shouldn't tell people where you are.

Speaker 2 And she says,

Speaker 2 Well, you know, everyone knows that this is my salon, something along those lines.

Speaker 2 And then a delivery man comes, she's looking out, and she mutes the live.

Speaker 2 And then you just see her take three bullets. And the first bullet, I've watched this video so many times at this point.
She's wearing like a chain necklace.

Speaker 2 And the first bullet, because people were saying it was fake and that it didn't look like the bullet even hit her, but the first bullet hits her necklace and her necklace goes flying off.

Speaker 2 It hits the pendant, the whole necklace goes flying off. She gets shot again, and then she gets shot in the head.
And she's like slumped over, and her hair is covering her whole face. So

Speaker 2 the video is really jarring because

Speaker 2 you're seeing a woman get murdered on live, get being shot three times, but it's not like this cinematic boom, boom, boom, and she's all bludgeoned.

Speaker 2 And she just kind of slumps in, and she's holding the pig plushie too,

Speaker 2 dead.

Speaker 2 And the friend comes over, picks up the phone, and turns off the live stream.

Speaker 2 And people were saying, you know, you didn't hear screaming, but it's important to keep in mind she muted the live.

Speaker 2 Why did she mute the live? If she was so scared, why didn't she leave? She already had that feeling.

Speaker 2 And so people are saying that the friend set her up.

Speaker 2 Or that her ex-boyfriend, who is allegedly part of organized crime, crime,

Speaker 2 I want to say like objectively just an unattractive guy, especially for a girl who is, she's very beautiful, she had a very striking look.

Speaker 2 They say he was responsible for it.

Speaker 2 But the interesting thing is, you know,

Speaker 2 where is the forensics in Mexico and an investigation?

Speaker 2 She was murdered now like weeks ago at this point

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 nobody

Speaker 2 has come out to say who the main suspects are, what the state of the investigation is.

Speaker 2 And this became international news because

Speaker 2 there's this beautiful girl being murdered on TikTok live stream

Speaker 2 and people interacting with her as she's talking about being scared. People in the comments were even saying to her,

Speaker 2 if you feel weirded out out or uncomfortable just go home

Speaker 2 i mean if this was a hit

Speaker 2 that was planned on her

Speaker 2 then it would have happened no matter where she was then you have a lot of conspiracy theorists or people conspiracies going around saying that she didn't actually die she was probably being threatened and so she faked her death on live and that it was ai and um

Speaker 2 It doesn't the way the blood splatters on the table and the way she falls over holding the plushie, it just doesn't look like someone who had been shot three times.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this, though, the murder speaks volumes to the state of Mexico, like the entire country.

Speaker 2 Because over the past couple of months, a lot of YouTubers and social media influencers have fallen victim to being publicly murdered like this.

Speaker 2 Whether they have narco ties or not is thing, but this is certainly sending a message.

Speaker 2 If you do not do what we say or follow our agenda, especially with the large platform you have, or you do us dirty,

Speaker 2 you're dead.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, the problem too with this being so publicized is there's a lot of false information that's coming out and a lot of false theories that people are taking and running with as if it's fact.

Speaker 2 So, and then people are also editing fake videos of her um

Speaker 2 i saw one video of her and it's very hard to tell if it's real or not where she's got a song in the background and she's kind of like uh lip-syncing it and the caption on the video is like uh

Speaker 2 basically to the gist of

Speaker 2 you know use men for what they can give you, enjoy the benefits of it, but you know, basically like have multiple guys who can give you nice things and don't get attached

Speaker 2 and people were saying you know she was a gold digger who messed with the wrong

Speaker 2 person

Speaker 2 and she got her karma which at the end of the day someone was murdered so it's really fucked up to say that even if this isn't a perfect victim to you But it's also hard to tell what is real and what isn't about her because it's such a publicized case.

Speaker 2 She had such a large platform on social media.

Speaker 2 And there doesn't seem to be much transparency with her investigation.

Speaker 3 Why do you think she was murdered?

Speaker 2 One of two reasons. So, I have two theories.
I think the one that sticks out to me the most is she was probably dating the wrong guys.

Speaker 2 She didn't grow up wealthy. She came from very humble beginnings.
And I think that, you know, she was a beautiful girl. And she

Speaker 2 used that to her advantage, dated guys who were

Speaker 2 cartel associates, part of organized crime, and she pissed someone off. She had already posted previously on her Instagram

Speaker 2 screenshots of messages with a boyfriend

Speaker 2 where he was threatening to kill her and said, you've never seen me mad and you don't want to see me mad, but you're going to force me to do something I don't want to do.

Speaker 2 And she posted and said, if something happens to me or my family, it's this guy.

Speaker 2 So that's what I think happened is that she broke up with a guy who had a very fragile ego, or she did him dirty in some way

Speaker 2 in terms of their relationship, and he sought revenge.

Speaker 2 And he did it publicly to send a message. It makes sense to do it on live.
This is what happens if you're going to fuck with me or make a fool of me. You die.

Speaker 2 And the way that the message was set up, you know, getting the pig plushie, three gifts, and then the last one is the most expensive expensive and you get three bullets

Speaker 2 that's

Speaker 2 it's

Speaker 2 looks like a narco hit

Speaker 2 uh but then there is that other part of me that maybe wonders you know maybe

Speaker 2 maybe that so-called friend wasn't actually a friend because

Speaker 2 I talked to my best friend about it and I said, what would you do if we were just sitting there and I got shot? Because, you know, especially with this job, I run the risk.

Speaker 2 And she said, I would freak out. And she goes, I don't think that I would even have the capacity to think about picking up your phone and turning off the live and then attending to you.

Speaker 2 The first thing would be to attend to the person.

Speaker 2 But that's purely speculation.

Speaker 3 Was the shooter on video?

Speaker 2 There is CCTV video of

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 2 guy coming up on a motorcycle outside.

Speaker 3 On the live stream, though?

Speaker 2 No. So maybe the live stream.

Speaker 3 Maybe she shut it off before the, I mean, he was probably wearing a mask, but maybe she shut it off before that reveal happened.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, because the phone is facing her and she's, she's facing the window.

Speaker 2 So you can see when she's receiving these gifts or you can see when she sees someone comes up to give her a gift and her friend was on the other side in the salon. Gotcha.

Speaker 2 And then some people are saying, well, if you look at where the bullets came from, they didn't come from in front. They came from the side and the friend probably took that moment to shoot her.

Speaker 2 but this also happens a lot in mexico um i mean anywhere you know

Speaker 2 the pretty girl gets killed it's like the gabby petito case it becomes this huge debacle and there's so many theories but in mexico it's particularly distinct because there is also that element of organized crime and corruption and lack of oversight in investigations.

Speaker 2 And so something like this happens and people want justice.

Speaker 2 Are you going to get that justice? It depends on who the perpetrator is.

Speaker 3 How about propaganda? How are they recruiting? What are they using?

Speaker 2 Propaganda, I would say, you know, it's funny because you asked me, how do you tackle the cartels and this whole issue? I think...

Speaker 2 propaganda, based on what I've seen, is one of the major components that needs to be tackled first. And

Speaker 2 we're nowhere near there because propaganda at this point, cartel propaganda is deeply entrenched in every aspect of Mexican culture, society, and daily life. How so? So

Speaker 2 first things first, the music, okay? You have these narco corridos songs that are literally dedicated to certain capos or certain cartels. And they are fully, blatantly glamorizing this lifestyle.

Speaker 2 The singers are, you know,

Speaker 2 whether it's

Speaker 2 Peso Pluma, Junior Ace, Natanel Cano, there's so many of them. The list goes on, but they're super popular.
They top charts in Mexico and in the United States too.

Speaker 2 In their music videos, they have the Rolex presidential whole Gucci outfit, and they're singing about, you know,

Speaker 2 they're strapped up with the scar

Speaker 2 and they drive the cars around that are fully armored. They get their money, they're selling the merchandise, and they make this life seem so enticing.

Speaker 2 You have so much money, you have all these hot girls, you have all of everything that's trendy,

Speaker 2 and you have a great beat to accompany it. Because I, I must say, like sometimes I listen to these songs too, and I'm like, this is great.
This is a great song.

Speaker 2 But what it's, the narrative it's pushing is absolutely horrible. And so the Mexican government has tried to crack down on this.

Speaker 2 I mean, corridos have been banned in Sinaloa for a while, and a lot of other states have banned this music genre in public places, at establishments, at concerts.

Speaker 2 Actually, a lot of Mexican musicians are now being sanctioned and having their visas revoked by the U.S.

Speaker 2 for their lyrics, what they're singing, because it so explicitly promotes cartel propaganda.

Speaker 2 And the Mexican government plays their role in, and the federal government actually just put out this initiative, Mexico Canta, Mexico Sings,

Speaker 2 to encourage people to participate in like this

Speaker 2 basically a competition where you can play music, you have a band or sing a song, original singer-songwriter, whatever it is, but that it has nothing to do with cartels or narco-propaganda.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the interesting thing is,

Speaker 2 when the Mexican government talks about this genre of music, they particularly focus on violence against women, violent acts, and drug trafficking.

Speaker 2 What they're missing, that is the key point, is, hey, young people, this is propaganda. This life is actually not as cool as these songs are making them seem to be.

Speaker 2 This is how you die. This is how you end up like Valeria.

Speaker 2 You want to be that pretty girl with a rich guy on your side? Yeah, well, guess what? He might kill you afterwards.

Speaker 2 And a lot of these young people in Mexico certainly fall for it. And I don't blame them.

Speaker 2 You're being inundated with this music, these TV shows, this culture that's promoting a lifestyle that on the surface seems so luxurious.

Speaker 2 Wouldn't you want to have the extra cash too? You're growing up in a place where both of your parents are working very hard and, you know, maybe you can't even afford your schooling.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 buddy on the radio is telling you that

Speaker 2 you could pick up your parents in a G-Wagon.

Speaker 2 You just have to take part of this lifestyle. And so the propaganda is deep in the pop culture.

Speaker 2 On the other hand, you have blatant forms of propaganda

Speaker 2 through social media, which now

Speaker 2 has exploded for them. I mean, it's social media is a

Speaker 2 major tool for the cartels. And Mexico has also tried to crack down on this.
They're constantly banning TikTok accounts that are promoting cartel propaganda or trying to recruit people.

Speaker 3 What does that propaganda look like? What is it on TikTok?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Is it the same stuff, luxurious lifestyle, lots of flashy shit?

Speaker 2 It's the flashy shit, but it's also the actual operations. You'll have like a good song and they're showing them loading up kilos into a light aircraft and flying it across Pablo Escobar style.

Speaker 2 They kind of switch the aesthetic based on whichever platform they're on and who they're trying to appeal to.

Speaker 3 Gotcha.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you have those type of TikTok accounts and they're showing the money, they're showing the guns, but they're also showing the actual warfare.

Speaker 2 They are showing some of the ugly side of it, but they're making it seem cool. It's like militarized.

Speaker 2 And then you'll have a link in the bio of that TikTok account that you click it and it directly opens a WhatsApp group chat. That's the beginning step of cartel recruitment.
Where you're joining.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're joining this group chat and you have certain higher level operatives for the cartel in there that will ask you certain questions or tell you what you're getting into.

Speaker 2 And then they vet you based on your answers to those questions or the personal information you give.

Speaker 2 Then you move into a different group chat and then another one and it kind of goes down the steps to the point where you're then in direct contact with high-level cartel operatives who are actively helping you get into the cartel.

Speaker 2 And literally, to the point where it's like, okay,

Speaker 2 a car will come and pick you up from your address now now that you've shown us that you are willing to be a part of our group.

Speaker 2 And it'll take you to a bus station. You get on that bus, you're going to meet us here, and you're going to train for six months in the mountains of Puerto Vallerta.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 the social media is just the first step to this. And it's major for them because without numbers, without this support, the cartridge can't function.

Speaker 2 And if you have vulnerable, impressionable young people who are looking for a fatter paycheck, who are enamored by this lifestyle, and who want to be a part of something,

Speaker 2 you have the perfect victim. And you take them in and you absolutely abuse the shit out of them and dehumanize them and you turn them into a machine

Speaker 2 and you give them some money.

Speaker 2 And now this is the beginning part of someone working for the cartel.

Speaker 3 How do they advance? Is this all like family members that stay at the top or how do you advance if you're, you know,

Speaker 2 just a new guy.

Speaker 3 That's, yeah, that's just wanting to get recruited and get in there.

Speaker 2 So it is mainly family members, but then it's about proving your loyalty. How much are you going to do for us? And especially if when you prove your loyalty, it's successful.

Speaker 2 So a good example of this could be

Speaker 2 you're starting off, you're, you know, fresh in the cartel, you just got out of the training.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 then you find out that one of the National Guard members that you guys are paying off is actually acting as an informant or

Speaker 2 also on the adversary's payroll, whatever the case may be, right?

Speaker 2 And then you go and you tell the boss, hey, I know this, this, and this. I'll go kill him.
Or I'll go torture him.

Speaker 2 Then you move your way up.

Speaker 2 Or,

Speaker 2 hey, I know a way that we can move this much of, this amount of undetected fentanyl from

Speaker 2 one American state to another. No one's going to figure it out.
And I have a good connect over there. Let's do it.
Okay. They run the operation.
Profits increase. Now you're on your way up.

Speaker 3 Gotcha.

Speaker 2 It's action-based and

Speaker 2 really showing loyalty, your willingness to die for the organization.

Speaker 2 But this all starts off, yeah, on social media. It's, it's ridiculous.
And the Mexican government has done like a crackdown.

Speaker 2 They've removed multiple TikTok accounts, but there can only be so much oversight with that. Social media is so vast.
And

Speaker 2 particularly when you have young people who are using a tool that didn't exist before, because hurt all propaganda has always existed.

Speaker 2 We've seen like in Juarez back in the early 2000s, and even today, but you know, you have people hanging from bridges, pants pulled down, and a narcomanta on top of them, a message to whoever is next, or this is what will happen to you if you act like these rats.

Speaker 2 That's a form of propaganda, but that is tangible, blatant propaganda. You bring social media into the mix,

Speaker 2 it fucks up the whole game. Because how do you apply any oversight to this? How do you ensure that young people aren't being targeted just through the phone that they always have in their hand?

Speaker 2 And that's why

Speaker 2 the social influencers, media influencers, are main targets. A major YouTuber in Mexico, Marquitos Toys, he has millions of subscribers.
He shows this flashy lifestyle. He's from Sinaloa.

Speaker 2 His brother was murdered in Baja California.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 it's constant. It's constant.

Speaker 3 Are you saying they're murdering influencers as part of the propaganda machine?

Speaker 2 It's certainly part of the propaganda because it sends a loud message. And I think a lot of these influencers also have a role, their role in organized crime,

Speaker 2 whether it's

Speaker 2 laundering money or pushing some sort of narrative.

Speaker 2 In Mexico, a lot of the time when you make a lot of money or you gain a platform, somehow the cartel will find a way to use you

Speaker 2 to push their agenda forward.

Speaker 3 What kind of narrative would they be sending out through an influencer?

Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly this, the propaganda that they're not the bad guys.

Speaker 2 That this is, or that this is a luxury lifestyle and you should be part of it.

Speaker 3 Okay, so it's it's basically it's essentially the same thing as the songs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's the recruitment and

Speaker 2 also to put pressure on their adversaries. So the music does it too, the YouTubers do it too.
It's very much like, where with CJ and G, Cuatro letras,

Speaker 2 fuck whoever else our adversary is. And it garners.

Speaker 2 larger support throughout the population for that one cartel. Like even nowadays, people will ask me, who do you want to win in in Sinaloa? Chapo or Mayo? And I'm like, what do you mean? And

Speaker 2 people have those conversations.

Speaker 2 I will be at a regular

Speaker 2 dinner with people who have absolutely nothing to do with this. They're completely out of the realm.
And they're talking about which side of the faction they support.

Speaker 2 And that's what the propaganda is doing.

Speaker 3 Do you think they're

Speaker 3 using reporters like yourself as part of their propaganda machine?

Speaker 2 I think so. And I think that's why a lot of reporters die are murdered because a lot of reporters don't want to be a part of that.

Speaker 2 But for the most part, they have no choice, especially people who are working for small to medium-sized outlets in regions where there is such a cartel stronghold and they don't want certain news stories to get out or they want certain news stories to get out with a narrative.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And they're not even getting paid for that. It's just a life or death scenario.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 How much of this, how much of the cartel's money are they, are they,

Speaker 3 or

Speaker 3 how much money in general are they seeding into U.S. politics?

Speaker 2 A lot of the cartel money is in the U.S., point blank.

Speaker 2 Whether that is through the shell companies or certain operations that they're conducting in the U.S. In terms of politics,

Speaker 2 there are a number

Speaker 2 of U.S. politicians or U.S.
authorities in law enforcement

Speaker 2 that are on the cartel payroll.

Speaker 2 For the most part, this happens in border towns

Speaker 2 or in states that are major profit regions for the cartel. So that's California, Texas, Arizona.

Speaker 3 So are these local governments or

Speaker 3 all the way up to?

Speaker 2 It goes up high on the food chain.

Speaker 2 How high

Speaker 3 how high are they getting to the federal level to the federal level yeah

Speaker 2 i i've seen it firsthand

Speaker 3 what who in the federal level

Speaker 3 senators congressmen what are we talking about fbi agents what do you have any idea on the federal level

Speaker 2 cartels have basically infiltrated

Speaker 2 any member of politics that they believe they can get to, that is willing to work with them,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 that can push policy that directly benefits them. So whether it's senators, congressmen,

Speaker 2 DEA, ICE, even,

Speaker 2 they have their clause in all of these departments.

Speaker 3 Do you think these people know that it's the cartel

Speaker 3 who's influencing them?

Speaker 2 I think a lot of them do.

Speaker 3 How would you know?

Speaker 2 How would I know that these people know? Or how would they know?

Speaker 3 Would the cartel want these people to know that that's who the,

Speaker 3 I mean, basically it's lobbying, right? So does the cartel want their

Speaker 3 quote-unquote lobbying firm

Speaker 3 being known as, I would think they wouldn't want them known as, hey, this is a cartel lobbying firm. This is set up by, you know, the Sinaloa or whoever.

Speaker 3 think I think if I was them I would try to get my narrative or whatever I'm lobbying for to appear as something innocent or just money driven or you

Speaker 3 do you see what I'm saying I wouldn't want the

Speaker 3 I wouldn't want the individual to know that it's coming from a cartel because that would be that would I think less incentivizing and it's

Speaker 2 blatantly illegal.

Speaker 2 It happens both ways. So, certainly, they have these lobbying groups set up or

Speaker 2 they can push their agenda in a way where it doesn't seem like it's directly coming from them. Now, at the end of the day, I have an issue with this because I find that it's hard not to know.

Speaker 2 Anyone with half a brain, especially if you're in a high-ranking position of power,

Speaker 2 you can dig deep enough to figure it out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they do have ways to use it to their advantage with certain companies they have.

Speaker 3 I mean, what would they, I mean, you wouldn't have to, like, what's an obvious one? An obvious one they would be lobbying for would be border security, right? Yes.

Speaker 3 So nobody would have to know that it's the cartel that's lobbying for that

Speaker 3 specific, you know, for the border. They could just, they could do the, you know, they could just get a group of people that

Speaker 3 here in the, I mean, the U.S. is very divided.
They could just get somebody that thinks that we should have open borders and create that group and fund it.

Speaker 3 And then all it is, is just a bunch of people that want to let

Speaker 3 illegal immigrants through, you know what I mean? And they, and they, and they lobby that. So it doesn't, it doesn't have to, that's how I would do it.

Speaker 3 I mean, but what other things would they be lobbying for other than open borders?

Speaker 2 It would be open borders. It would be lack of oversight of agriculture coming from Mexico.

Speaker 2 It would certainly be

Speaker 2 drug policies, so like safe supply stuff.

Speaker 2 And also,

Speaker 2 I think a major one

Speaker 2 would be the arms dealing too, because

Speaker 2 the majority of

Speaker 2 the guns that are used at Mexican crime scenes, like 70%, are American-made firearms.

Speaker 2 So all of their guns are coming from, most of their guns are coming from the U.S.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 they're not going to want that to shut down or to stop at any point in time because without those weapons, they can't commit the crimes.

Speaker 2 And because you can't really get a gun in Mexico the way you can get a gun here, which is exactly why they use that to their advantage.

Speaker 2 So that would be, and not to mention a lot of the straw buyers too are moving guns from the U.S. into Canada to arm these same people.

Speaker 2 So that's a big one that I believe that they're lobbying for. I mean, yeah, the border one is a big one, but

Speaker 2 without the guns, they can't run any of their operations.

Speaker 2 But U.S., you know, why would they want

Speaker 2 people to know that they are curtail if they're lobbying or have certain, they have money in certain aspects of the federal government.

Speaker 2 I think in some ways, sometimes them instilling that fear does work depending on what the initiative is.

Speaker 2 And I think they do use that to their advantage sometimes. And there are certain

Speaker 2 people that they can have in their pockets, knowing that the fear and knowing that the cartel is on my ass is going to keep them

Speaker 2 doing exactly what they want and keep them from moving away or speaking out because once you have the cartel on your ass, the only way to get out of that is basically to die.

Speaker 2 That's certainly less of the circumstance, but it is happening.

Speaker 3 How are they using the migrant crisis as a tool?

Speaker 2 Like people crossing the border.

Speaker 2 As a tool for what?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Cartels control over human crossings, including children, the use of distraction groups to tie up border patrol and the human cost, rape, enslavement, and exploitation of migrants.

Speaker 3 It sounds I have it as they're using it as a tool for all these things. Can you elaborate on any of that?

Speaker 2 I mean

Speaker 3 I have no idea. What is the use of distraction groups?

Speaker 2 The use of distraction groups is so that they can get people and drugs across the border. There was actually just a video about this.
It was in

Speaker 2 Texas where you have these five guys in a pickup truck and they're doing donuts around

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 all the CBP pulls up on them and they're trying to outrun them. Well, at the same time that's happening, there's people, a coyote illegally crossing people or drugs across the border.

Speaker 2 And that's a really common tool that they use where they'll, you know, they're trying to distract them one way and do something else. They do these smoke screens and not just

Speaker 2 blatantly like that at the border, but with a lot of other actions too. Um,

Speaker 2 especially when so they're just creating a bunch of diversions, yes, they're creating a bunch of diversions.

Speaker 2 Uh, they'll do this too, especially if there's like a high-level person who needs to get around

Speaker 2 and that can't typically cross in

Speaker 2 into Mexico or the U.S., vice versa. Their regular border crossing, and they need to move this person

Speaker 2 and in a stealth way.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 they've gotten very good at knowing what captures American authorities' attention and how to use that so they can run these profitable or high-level operations at the same time that something else is going on.

Speaker 3 Do you think they're aware of all the tech that we're implementing along the border wall and what exactly it does? Do you have any insight on that?

Speaker 2 I think that they, okay, so. With the people I've spoken to, especially who are working in organized crime in border regions, they know that the border tech has been amped up.

Speaker 2 In terms of to what extent,

Speaker 2 not as much as they should, they don't know as much as they should know, but they are very hopeful. I sound like a spokesperson for the cartel.
That's not the point here. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 This is just, you know, relaying the information, but they're very hopeful in their ability to adapt because they've always done it.

Speaker 2 It's just a matter of what has changed. How has the U.S.
ramped it up? The same thing they do with the Mexican government, actually. Okay, you want to put these troops here?

Speaker 2 Oh, you want to implement this, I don't know,

Speaker 2 thermal technology that can tell you if someone's even close to the border along the over 2,000 miles that it spans. We're going to find a way around that.
They typically do that.

Speaker 2 And that's why they've been so successful and profitable in every operation. But I don't want to sound like a spokesperson for the cartel.

Speaker 2 And I sometimes, you know, talking about exactly how they're reacting to certain things or,

Speaker 2 but they do adapt. That's one thing.

Speaker 2 There's a crackdown and they find another way. I mean, it just happened in Sinaloa.
The U.S.

Speaker 2 and Mexico were trying so hard, had this whole operation to get the main security enforcer for the Sinaloa cartel, La Peris.

Speaker 2 They get him. There's a new guy in, and he is bigger and badder than ever before.

Speaker 2 I mean, they'll always find a way around it. Oh, Trump in his first administration is cracking down on the southern border.
Fuck it. Let's go to Canada.

Speaker 2 And so you can put border technology across all 2,000 miles of the southern border and have it to the point where it is like Guantanamo Bay.

Speaker 2 They find a way. Because if human smuggling and drug trafficking is just that profitable for them, where they're making billions, tens of billions of dollars a year.

Speaker 2 By doing it, they will find a way around it. I mean, wouldn't that be an incentive for you? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And would you find a way around it?

Speaker 3 I would try.

Speaker 3 The thing is, I don't, I mean, I don't know how much we've actually

Speaker 3 is still to this day, I don't know how much we've actually pushed them. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 I think, you know, if it, if we get serious about this, I don't think they will find a way. But

Speaker 2 and I agree with you. I don't think they will either because

Speaker 2 cartels against full-fledged u.s government that's just a complete power imbalance yeah the issue stands with

Speaker 2 the u.s hasn't pushed as hard as it could and so the cartels do feel somewhat untouchable i mean there are certain actions that you know you extradite the 29 gapos you get El Mayu into the states, you crack down.

Speaker 2 Fentanyl seizures at the border have gone down significantly. Okay, but that's really just the tip of the iceberg.

Speaker 2 And they're so used to operating in a country with so much corruption and impunity where money talks that if you had a government come in where none of that works, the old tricks don't work on this new dog, it would have to be a complete overhaul for them.

Speaker 2 And like we talked about, they're certainly

Speaker 2 preparing for this.

Speaker 3 Have you heard any rumors about cartels aligning with traditional terrorist organizations? Yeah. What does that look like?

Speaker 2 Especially with Iran.

Speaker 2 That's a huge thing.

Speaker 2 In terms of training, what kind of weaponry they need,

Speaker 2 and intelligence is a big one, particularly when targeting America. So

Speaker 2 I know that there was an operation

Speaker 2 with Canadian authorities that were looking into organized crime groups operating with

Speaker 2 terrorist groups and particularly in Iran.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the main objective of this was to find out how

Speaker 2 the efforts between the two

Speaker 2 were directly impacting Canadian intelligence efforts. So they were trying to compromise all of the intelligence gathering and

Speaker 2 covert operations that were going on through attacking their intelligence.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the thing about the Mexican drug cartels is,

Speaker 2 especially since Trump's first administration,

Speaker 2 they have had to amp up

Speaker 2 their efforts in knowing what the U.S.'s next move is going to be. Because the U.S.
next move determines just how much money they're going to make and how they have to adapt.

Speaker 2 And so Iran and Mexican drug cartels do have

Speaker 2 a connection, and this is with high ups of the drug cartels

Speaker 2 to understand how the U.S. is operating their intelligence,

Speaker 2 what type of actions the U.S. could potentially take or is taking silently against drug cartels, and ensure that they kind of build a firewall around themselves

Speaker 2 in terms of weaponry

Speaker 2 a lot of the techniques and certain arms that drug cartels are using particularly now

Speaker 2 have been learned from

Speaker 2 organized terrorist groups that have been around forever

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 on a side note it goes into their propaganda too, because Mexican drug cartels post that typical press release video

Speaker 2 admitting or denying a certain fatal tragedy that occurred or something that, like a big news story, they address it head on. They have the script.
They have the lighting.

Speaker 2 They even have the logo, the banner on it, and the background music, just like the same way ISIS was doing and the Taliban.

Speaker 2 And those

Speaker 2 videos now, like when ISIS and the Television was doing it, it was on social media, whatever, but it was mainly being sent to news outlets or, you know, they were posting it on their page.

Speaker 2 It was more

Speaker 2 confined. Whereas now,

Speaker 2 it's just, you put it out there and it spreads like a virus.

Speaker 2 And so a lot of their techniques, which is why it's interesting that it took so long to declare Mexican drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations, because a lot of their techniques, whether it comes to gathering intelligence or infiltrating the US or Canada, and

Speaker 2 the way they are able to manage public perception of themselves, it completely matches that of traditional terrorist groups.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 The only difference I would say is the way a lot of these traditional terrorist groups would directly go and attack Americans, right? Like there was a bomb. There was a shooting.

Speaker 2 Someone drove through a crowd. For Mexican drug cartels, it's chemical warfare.
It's drugs. They don't need to go and plant a bomb in the name of drug cartels.

Speaker 3 Do you think it'll ever get kinetic with

Speaker 3 down at the southern border?

Speaker 2 If American boots hit Mexican soil.

Speaker 2 I've been saying this, and I really do believe that

Speaker 2 if American, especially tier one operators,

Speaker 2 get into Mexico, we're going to see that traditional terrorism style happen in the U.S., particularly along the border region.

Speaker 2 Because at that point, it's like what we said, they have nothing to lose, and they will go down with a fight.

Speaker 2 And if they're already working with traditional terrorist groups, they know what the playbook says.

Speaker 3 Man, that's terrifying to hear. What do you think the U.S.

Speaker 3 and Canada should be doing that we're not doing?

Speaker 2 I think there needs to be,

Speaker 2 you know, it's gotten better, especially at the southern border.

Speaker 2 I really believe so. And I've been covering that region since for a while now.
So you can kind of compare the differences.

Speaker 2 But what needs to be done is to tackle the root of the problem, the indoctrination and the financial pipelines. Because

Speaker 2 grabbing this, you know, picking up this big guy that runs a major faction and flaunting him around and parading him and saying, look what we did. We captured this guy.

Speaker 2 That works for five minutes before it's just as bad as again. Or worse, after they got El Mayo, the Sinaloa cartel just fucking exploded.
It made hell.

Speaker 2 Like life was a living hell, is a living hell for a lot of people in that region and so i think tackling it at its root is what needs to happen but that's a that's a huge operation that goes beyond just going in and and doing this covert mission to grab someone you have to

Speaker 2 somehow put a stop to propaganda at its deepest form monitor the socials

Speaker 2 and target financial pipelines, like I said, remittance apps, the banks, the companies that are fronting for these groups. And that's a lot harder, I think.
Do you think that's harder?

Speaker 3 Yeah, that would be tough. It could be done.
But I, you know, what's interesting is I just, I just don't think that we have really pushed on them at all. And so it'll be

Speaker 3 if that time comes. I mean, to me, securing our border is not pushing back.
That's just shit that we should have done a long time ago. It's a bad name.

Speaker 3 But if we actually go on the offensive, then, I mean, I think this could be wrapped up.

Speaker 2 What would the offensive look like for you?

Speaker 3 Like I said, I think what I would do is initially

Speaker 3 pit them against each other to weaken them

Speaker 3 to keep our people safe. You know, let's weaken them as much as we possibly can.
In the meantime, you know, you could send in the intel reps, the operatives to start tackling the financials.

Speaker 3 You know, you could outbid them on the gas.

Speaker 3 There's a lot of things you could do.

Speaker 3 Then I'd do that. And then

Speaker 3 to wrap it up, I would send in the tier one units.

Speaker 2 And I think it is slowly happening.

Speaker 3 To demoralize them also.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 A lot of strikes. Because it is a psychological game, too.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 There is, you know, aside from the CIA planes that are flying over the northern states, there's a vessel that's docked, a U.S. vessel that's docked at the Port of Veracruz.
um

Speaker 2 the border is militarized and

Speaker 2 then you have like

Speaker 2 ice dea working allegedly working with mexican forces to conduct operations without having to step foot in mexico but i it seems to be like these are all precursors to something bigger that could potentially happen especially if the u.s isn't seeing the result that it wants which is what demoralized cartels, less fentanyl, less human smuggling, or for it to stop altogether, which I just don't see happening.

Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, you still have to deal with this big figurehead, which is the Mexican government, who has too much reason not to crack down on these guys. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean.

Speaker 3 It is what it is with them. It's our people that are being affected.
You know,

Speaker 3 they don't want to help their people. That's on them.
But, but what the hell hell do I know? I'm just a podcaster. So,

Speaker 3 anyways.

Speaker 3 Well, I forgot to give you something here at the beginning. Okay.
So,

Speaker 3 do it at the end.

Speaker 2 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears.

Speaker 2 So excited for asking me about this.

Speaker 3 Not smuggled across the border.

Speaker 3 But before we wrap it up, what are you getting ready to get into? Anything exciting?

Speaker 2 Yes, I'm really excited. So I just did,

Speaker 2 I'm doing my podcast with Ironclad Borderline Dispatches.

Speaker 2 So I'm basically just going boots on the ground to show

Speaker 2 people exactly what's happening without having, you know, you know, I try to always do beyond the headline reporting where I go and I speak to the people who are affected right there and paint the picture of what's going on.

Speaker 2 So on borderline dispatches, I went to the southern border and then I went up to the northern border. I showed everyone just how open it is.

Speaker 2 And soon we're going to be going in back to Mexico to just show some of the cartel-ridden regions and how it varies from different areas and who's running what.

Speaker 3 Does that mean you're having a crew go with you?

Speaker 2 I operate alone. Good for you, man.
I've been doing that. And actually, it's funny.
A lot of people don't know that, but I've always done this alone. So it's a lot of work, but I think it's worth it.

Speaker 2 You know, that's a trust thing, too. I feel like if I go in alone, more people will talk to me and share more information.
It's disarming.

Speaker 3 Well, where can we find you?

Speaker 2 You can find me on the podcast, Apple, Spotify, Borderland Dispatches. I also have my sub stack.
It's my full name, Katarina Schultz.

Speaker 2 Everything is my full name with the most complicated spelling: S-Z-U-L-C.

Speaker 3 All right, Katerina. Thank you so much.
Thank you. I really appreciate you.

Speaker 2 I appreciate you having me here.

Speaker 3 And hope to see you again.

Speaker 2 Likewise.