#210 Hsiao Bi-khim | 蕭美琴 - Vice President of Taiwan

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Speaker 9 Xiaobi Kim, welcome to the show.

Speaker 10 Thank you, and welcome to Taiwan.

Speaker 9 It's an honor to be here. And I just want to say before we start, thank you so much for the hospitality.
You have treated me and my team extremely well.

Speaker 9 We've learned so much in the couple of days that we've been here. And I just want to say that I have been following this situation for many years.

Speaker 9 And this has been my number one one interview that I've wanted to do, and I just, it's an honor. So, thank you for hosting us.

Speaker 10 Yes, well, hospitality is an important part of our culture, and we're always eager to welcome friends and eager to foster opportunities for better understanding. So, I'm really

Speaker 10 glad that you've come out all this way to do this interview, and it really demonstrates a very strong interest and commitment to a partnership and friendship between our peoples.

Speaker 9 Thank you. Well, I think that I believe that this is the most delicate situation in the entire world right now.

Speaker 9 And I would just like to bring exposure and to be able to get your story out there for everybody to hear. And so before we start,

Speaker 9 everybody gets a gift.

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Speaker 10 Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 9 You're welcome.

Speaker 9 So I'll start off with an introduction here.

Speaker 10 So do I give my present to you too?

Speaker 9 Oh, we can wait.

Speaker 10 Okay, we can wait on that. Yes, thank you.

Speaker 9 Xiao Bi Kim, Vice President of Taiwan, the 13th and current Vice President of the Republic of China, Taiwan. You have a Taiwanese father and an American mother, born in Japan.

Speaker 9 You grew up in Tainan, Taiwan, and later in New Jersey. Degrees from both Oberlin College and Columbia University, equipping you with a unique perspective on Taiwan's role in the world.

Speaker 9 Served as Taiwan's representative to the United States from 2020 to 2023, strengthening Taiwan-U.S. ties during a critical period of heightened tensions with China.

Speaker 9 A trailblazer who made history by attending President Joe Biden's

Speaker 9 2021 inauguration, the first time a Taiwanese representative was was officially invited since the U.S.

Speaker 9 severed formal diplomatic ties with Taiwan in 1979, stating, democracy is our common language and freedom is our common objective.

Speaker 9 A target of Chinese sanctions blacklisted by Beijing in 2022 and 2023 for your alleged support of Taiwanese independence, reflecting your pivotal role in Taiwan's resistance to Chinese pressure.

Speaker 9 And once again, I just want to say that I do believe, and my entire team believe this is the most delicate and fragile situation in the entire world. So it is an honor to be here.

Speaker 9 And I'd like to start with

Speaker 9 Taiwan makes

Speaker 9 world-renowned semiconductors, and it runs the entire modern world. And

Speaker 9 I would just like to get your perspective on how Taiwan was able to do that.

Speaker 10 Well, in the technology sector, and specifically on the chips, it took us decades to build this particular capability.

Speaker 10 And it involves not only the chip-making fabs, which Taiwanese are also now investing in the United States to make them in the States, but an ecosystem of hundreds and thousands of small and medium-sized companies, from the designers to the chemical suppliers to the machine tools,

Speaker 10 the entire ecosystem that is within a compact

Speaker 10 geographic region of the island called Taiwan. And the logistics coordination, the integration of this ecosystem has functioned and grown in a way that is extremely efficient.

Speaker 10 So Taiwan has been able to produce not only the high-end, most advanced chips, but we have been able to do that in a cost-effective, efficient, and reliable way.

Speaker 10 And I want to emphasize the word reliability, because I think in technology, especially technology that empowers everything from AI to our phones, home electronics that involve privacy and confidence,

Speaker 10 trust and reliability are very important.

Speaker 10 And so I think Taiwan has managed to integrate that cost-efficiency, a comprehensive ecosystem, as well as trust and reliability that comes with our cherished value of freedom together to make Taiwan a very critical part of the global technology supply chain.

Speaker 10 But we do have to give credit to a number of

Speaker 10 leaders in this industry, of course, for their foresight. For example, Dr.

Speaker 10 Morris Chang, who's now in his 90s, I have great admiration for him, for his foresight and vision in understanding how to run a business.

Speaker 10 He came from the United States. He was part of Texas Instrument.
And

Speaker 10 he came with expertise from a very good American education

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 10 really put into this industry along with many other leading Taiwanese scientists who were also

Speaker 10 educated and trained in the United States and built this industry here in Taiwan.

Speaker 10 And so we see this as not only a Taiwan ecosystem, but broadly speaking, a Taiwan USA ecosystem of advanced technology that serves to

Speaker 10 power human advances,

Speaker 10 that serves to protect our freedom, that serves to

Speaker 10 continue with global scientific discoveries. And this ecosystem is so important to the extent that the G7 and

Speaker 10 other countries have repeatedly emphasized that Taiwan plays a critical role in fostering global stability and prosperity.

Speaker 10 I mean,

Speaker 9 Taiwan produces 60%

Speaker 9 of all chips in the world and 95%

Speaker 9 of all the high-end chips. I mean, can you elaborate a little bit on,

Speaker 9 just for the audience that does understand the importance of how much of society has run off these chips,

Speaker 9 can you dive into that just a little bit?

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 10 chips power everything from your smartwatches on you to your phones to your cars,

Speaker 10 all the electronic equipment around you, microphones.

Speaker 10 And so, you know, chips really power and connect the modern world. And Taiwan chips, especially the advanced chips that are now widely used in smartphones, are also

Speaker 10 critically important for making those global connections, enabling the Internet, enabling AI.

Speaker 10 And we will continue to contribute in a way that helps to advance technology.

Speaker 9 And a lot of defense tech as well.

Speaker 10 Oh, for sure, yes.

Speaker 9 How much trade goes through the strait?

Speaker 10 There have been estimates of somewhere between 20 to 50 percent of maritime, the value of global maritime trade.

Speaker 9 20 to 50 percent. Yes.

Speaker 10 Yes. Well, U.S.
government officials have been talking about 50 percent of global maritime trade. And if we look at container value and other shipping records, it's at least 20 percent and beyond.

Speaker 10 And the Taiwan Strait, if you look at the world map, is right at the center center of the Western Pacific

Speaker 10 in a growing

Speaker 10 region with growing economic weight in the world, and not only in terms of manufacturing production, but also in importing high-value energy and other goods from around the world.

Speaker 10 And so, in terms of maritime trade, Taiwan also sits right at the center at a pivot of global

Speaker 10 the how the global economic system and could truly function.

Speaker 10 And you really

Speaker 10 you look at the global map, you know, there are some points, for example, the Suez Canal, the Red Sea, the Taiwan Strait,

Speaker 10 really

Speaker 10 key locations where

Speaker 10 if

Speaker 10 compromised, if the freedom of navigation is compromised, would have a dramatic impact on the global economy.

Speaker 9 I mean, I have 2.5 trillion in trade running through the strait.

Speaker 9 And with so much geological turbulence, how are you maintaining or even depending deepening trade relations with key partners around the world?

Speaker 10 We are indeed in a very complicated geopolitical environment, and we seek to balance that

Speaker 10 concern and anxiety about geopolitics with a continuing confidence that supports good business and investments. And so, you know, Taiwan,

Speaker 10 we're a relatively small island.

Speaker 10 We are heavily dependent on global trade as well as our connections with the rest of the world. And we plan on deepening that, diversifying that.

Speaker 10 Over 10 years ago, over a decade ago, Taiwan's economy was much more integrated with the Chinese economy. Over 80% of outbound investments went to China.

Speaker 10 But our government has called for diversification. That is, we cannot be vulnerable to putting all our eggs in one big basket.
We need to consolidate partners with other like-minded democracies.

Speaker 10 And so those figures have been through very dramatic transformations, including more engagements with the Southeast Asian countries, significant investments in the United States, and now the United States has become one of our top investment destinations, especially in the area of high-tech.

Speaker 10 A very big Taiwanese company, a TSMC, which produces chips, has already made a $165 billion billion dollar commitment to investments in the United States.

Speaker 10 And that is the largest greenfield investment from a foreign country in American history. So that is a very meaningful contribution.
Think about this.

Speaker 10 We're a small country, but we are making the largest single greenfield investment in American history. And that will contribute to technology resilience, to the diversification of supply chains.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 we do want to deepen those ties.

Speaker 10 Taiwanese have benefited from American innovation, research, design,

Speaker 10 development,

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 10 we also depend on the American market. So we do want to be well integrated with reliable and trusted partners from the economic perspective.

Speaker 9 It's my understanding that there are only 11 countries plus the Vatican that

Speaker 9 verbally outright say that they stand with Taiwan.

Speaker 9 It's also my understanding that China has been

Speaker 9 sort of picking these off one by one by

Speaker 9 influx of money.

Speaker 9 How specifically are they doing that?

Speaker 10 Well, it's

Speaker 10 unfortunate situation that only

Speaker 10 11 countries recognize Taiwan in a diplomatic context. And we lost Honduras a couple years ago.
They

Speaker 10 made all kinds of claims, claims, such as

Speaker 10 a huge Chinese market buying more goods from Honduras.

Speaker 10 But I think the Hondurans have discovered that instead of making more money off the Chinese market, the Chinese trade surplus over Honduras has only widened.

Speaker 10 And some of their export markets are running into some significant challenges. But I think the Chinese tend to use multiple tools of coercion

Speaker 10 plus

Speaker 10 economic incentives or promises that they may or may not keep once countries switch their allegiance or diplomatic ties.

Speaker 10 So, you know, we want to keep these

Speaker 10 partners standing with Taiwan. In the Americas, in Latin America, our sole partner is Paraguay.

Speaker 10 In Central America, it's Guatemala, Belize, and a few Caribbean islands who still recognize and stand with Taiwan. And we want to work with them on economic partnerships, on

Speaker 10 public health,

Speaker 10 on

Speaker 10 empowering small-medium-sized enterprises,

Speaker 10 on continuing growth. But we also count on the United States and others to also stand with our friends and our partners.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 9 with the fact that Taiwan produces 95% of all of the high-end semiconductors,

Speaker 9 I don't understand why more countries don't verbally come out and say that they stand with Taiwan. I mean, the repercussions,

Speaker 9 if China were to invade and take those chip factories, would be detrimental to the entire world.

Speaker 9 And so

Speaker 9 what will it take to get more countries to

Speaker 9 verbally come out and say that they stand with Taiwan?

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 10 besides those who have diplomatic ties with Taiwan,

Speaker 10 a larger number of countries, most of them democratic and freedom-loving countries, have

Speaker 10 come out to support Taiwan's meaningful participation in international organizations.

Speaker 10 They have also highlighted the importance of peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait. The United States, for example, we don't have formal diplomatic ties.

Speaker 10 However, through the Taiwan Relations Act, the U.S. continues to help Taiwan fortify our ability to defend ourselves, including through the sale of defense articles

Speaker 10 and other initiatives supported by the National Defense Authorization Act.

Speaker 10 And other countries around the world, especially in our own neighborhood, the Japanese, the Filipinos, for example, are also facing a heightened degree of coercion from the People's Republic of China.

Speaker 10 China,

Speaker 10 through their activities in the South China Sea, through military drills,

Speaker 10 much more intensified military presence in this region, are also posing potential threats to our other

Speaker 10 partners in this neighborhood. Now, the Chinese military presence has gone as far as Australia and close to New Zealand in the Tasman Sea.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 their intentions obviously do not stop with Taiwan. And so I think it's all the more important that there is a greater degree of understanding this, but also in working together to fortify

Speaker 10 our defenses. We in Taiwan believe in sustaining peace through strength.
We are all peace-loving people. We certainly do not want to see conflict.

Speaker 10 We

Speaker 10 will do everything we can to prevent a war or conflict from happening. But Taiwan alone will not be enough to deter the aggression.
And we do need to work to further establish partnerships that will

Speaker 10 support

Speaker 10 the deterrence against a conflict.

Speaker 9 I spoke with

Speaker 9 a few gentlemen and a woman yesterday at the

Speaker 9 Foreign Affairs Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the subject of tariffs came up.

Speaker 9 So it's my understanding that Taiwan was the first one to come to the negotiating table with President Trump to come to a resolution.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 on top of those tariffs,

Speaker 9 the subject of Ukraine came up,

Speaker 9 that Taiwan wanted to help fund Ukraine in their defense against Russia and that they had denied aid. Why did they deny aid?

Speaker 10 Well, first let me talk about the tariffs.

Speaker 10 As I said in the outset, Taiwan-U.S. economies are very important to each other.

Speaker 10 This partnership has enabled Taiwan to grow in strength.

Speaker 10 It has also allowed Taiwanese companies to support growth and profit in the United States. It's an ecosystem that benefits both of our societies.

Speaker 10 So we are hoping to reach an arrangement with the current administration on a significant reduction of tariffs and other non-tariff barriers, as well as supporting some new investment projects, such as in the area of semiconductor chips, but also in energy and acquisitions.

Speaker 10 So, we are in the process of trying to work that out and hope that we will have some

Speaker 10 good arrangement that provides a win-win situation. We understand

Speaker 10 how many Americans are pursuing greatness in reindustrialization and in AI. And we in Taiwan want to be strong as well.
And it's important that Taiwan is a strong nation.

Speaker 10 So I think that is ultimately a goal that works for both of our societies on the economic and trade front.

Speaker 10 In terms of the European situation,

Speaker 10 like

Speaker 10 many countries around the world, the Ukrainian government has been rather

Speaker 10 cautious about any interactions with Taiwan.

Speaker 10 But the Taiwanese people in general have been sympathetic to the victims of invasion and war, and that's why we have provided humanitarian aid and support from a humanitarian perspective.

Speaker 10 We've had medical teams and other NGOs

Speaker 10 expressing our sympathies.

Speaker 10 But at the same time, I think the conflict there teaches us many lessons.

Speaker 10 First of all, it is a wake-up call to many people here that as much as we love and want to protect peace, we cannot take peace for granted.

Speaker 10 And we have to do more to prevent that type of conflict from happening in our part of the world and on our island. And so we do need to invest more in our defenses.

Speaker 10 And we not only, it's not only in terms of spending

Speaker 10 the amounts, but

Speaker 10 it's about investing in the right areas.

Speaker 10 I think another lesson from the Ukraine experience is the asymmetry

Speaker 10 in that theater. And so we do need to invest in more smart technologies.

Speaker 10 Drones and unmanned systems are widely used

Speaker 10 in that theater.

Speaker 10 I watched part of your interview with

Speaker 10 Dina

Speaker 10 Mavroukas

Speaker 10 on

Speaker 10 Saronic, unmanned surface vessels. And

Speaker 10 we need to look at more robotics, unmanned systems

Speaker 10 on all fronts. We also need to be

Speaker 10 adopting artificial intelligence and integrating our sensors and data fusion. So we have a lot of work to do.
And this is really a new era of

Speaker 10 self-defense.

Speaker 10 And I think a third thing that we have learned from the Ukrainians is the need for much more decentralized command control and to support more small unit autonomy and decision-making and to be much more nimble and flexible.

Speaker 10 Our military has for decades been trained in a very traditional way, and we need to quickly

Speaker 10 adapt to

Speaker 10 new requirements. And so, a lot of reforms are going on.
Our president has

Speaker 10 recently, actually, the former president started this process, but we are carrying it through. That is

Speaker 10 expanding our conscript training period. Every young man in Taiwan has to serve a mandatory one-year military training requirement.
And we need to make sure that that is not just

Speaker 10 one year from

Speaker 10 every young Taiwanese man's youth, but one meaningful year,

Speaker 10 quality training,

Speaker 10 adequate training. And I think that will also foster stronger

Speaker 10 capabilities and the will within our society and confidence in our society

Speaker 10 in our resilience.

Speaker 9 Was that recently implemented?

Speaker 10 Yes, that was recently implemented.

Speaker 9 How was the response from the Taiwanese people?

Speaker 10 Well, politically, it was not easy because we started the implementation right around our election time. And when you mandate every citizen extra duties,

Speaker 10 that is never an easy political decision.

Speaker 10 But it is something that we knew we had to do, given the geopolitical uncertainties and threats, in order to ensure that peace can prevail, that we can sustain peace through strengthening ourselves.

Speaker 10 We knew it was a difficult but a necessary decision. And I think it's upon us to ensure that that extended training is meaningful, that they do get the quality training.

Speaker 10 And so part of our partnership with the United States, as we acquire more modern systems, how to use those systems and how to

Speaker 10 operate in a rapidly changing environment, continuing these discussions is also very important.

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Speaker 9 Let's move to Taiwan-China relations. A week ago, we saw 70 ships, 70 Chinese ships move into the strait.
And I believe it was yesterday, two carriers

Speaker 9 went farther out into the Pacific. And so

Speaker 9 what is the sentiment of the Taiwanese people when these kind of things happen?

Speaker 10 Unfortunately, that has become a daily reality, something that is part of our lives, that's something that we've been forced to live with, although completely undesirable. But I think over the years,

Speaker 10 this is

Speaker 10 something that is not new to the Taiwanese people. In fact, when we were having our first ever presidential election in 1996,

Speaker 10 after 37 years of martial law and one-party dictatorship, we finally, for the first time, could vote and elect our

Speaker 10 own leader. And the Chinese responded to that with missile-firing missiles and military drills.
And so they've been doing this repeatedly over the years and unfortunately intensified recently.

Speaker 10 So, you know, that is another reason why, again, we cannot take the status quo for granted, that we have to invest more in our defense, we have to do more to make our society resilient.

Speaker 10 And part of that military presence and not only the naval presence, but the air incursions into the surrounding air defense identification zone has also become a significant problem.

Speaker 10 And we see that as part of what we call the gray zone threats, that is between peace and war.

Speaker 10 There is a gray zone where they are using many different types of hybrid tools to threaten and coerce our society into submission. And the military

Speaker 10 measures are part of that, but there are also many other steps they are taking, such as cognitive warfare through disinformation,

Speaker 10 political intervention in our society. They are also

Speaker 10 using economic trade tools as another leverage for coercing members of our business community and other foreign countries, threatening them from having ties or relations with Taiwan by using that economic leverage.

Speaker 10 And so they are doing a lot. And in response,

Speaker 10 we've talked a lot about Taiwan's own military investments and our preparedness, but I also want to raise another very important initiative of our president, and that is a whole of society defense and resilience project.

Speaker 10 That is, we see

Speaker 10 our country's security as not only in military terms, but in societal resilience terms.

Speaker 10 That is, we need communications resilience because our undersea cables have been damaged and cut by Chinese vessels recently.

Speaker 10 And to ensure that we can continue to communicate with the rest of the world, our data, our comms,

Speaker 10 so communications resilience, cyber security.

Speaker 10 Our society is one of the most attacked societies in the world in terms of cyberspace.

Speaker 10 Defending our critical infrastructure, our power, our energy,

Speaker 10 our transportation lines,

Speaker 10 the security of our financial system,

Speaker 10 and also

Speaker 10 thinking about stockpiling as an island.

Speaker 10 We need to think about stockpiling critical food security items, medical supplies. And of course, energy resilience is a continuing challenge for us that we are working on.

Speaker 10 So we have many lines of efforts going on at the same time to

Speaker 10 further magnify our strength, our resilience in coping with

Speaker 10 all of these daily challenges, including the presence of Chinese naval assets around Taiwan. But let me also, you know,

Speaker 10 again

Speaker 10 raise that it's not only around Taiwan. They are all over the South China Sea.
They're to the north, around Japan. There have also been air incursions into Japanese airspace.
There have been

Speaker 10 maritime incursions. And

Speaker 10 this is a

Speaker 10 challenge that many of us face, how to ensure the freedom of navigation,

Speaker 10 because that is foundational to global trade. It's foundational to keeping global prosperity and supply chains flowing.

Speaker 9 I'd like to, if it's okay with you, I'd like to dive into each one of those sectors. And let's start with, you had mentioned innovating defense tech, and you had brought up Saronic.

Speaker 9 It's not my opinion, warfare is changing at an extremely rapid pace with technological advancements. And we have companies like Palantir, Andural, Seronic.

Speaker 9 There's a lot of new generation defense tech companies that are extremely innovative.

Speaker 9 And I'm just curious, have you spoken to any of those companies, those U.S.-based defense tech companies that are true innovators?

Speaker 10 Yes. Well, a few years ago when I was posted to represent Taiwan in Washington, D.C., I had some opportunities to engage with the

Speaker 10 U.S. defense tech community.
And in fact, I've been involved in conversations

Speaker 10 on bridging the hill and the valley. That is Silicon Valley and Capitol Hill, but I think broadly speaking, the defense community and new tech.

Speaker 10 And I think a lot of the

Speaker 10 discrepancies or gaps

Speaker 10 that

Speaker 10 Americans are trying to bridge are also challenges for us.

Speaker 10 That is, historically, our defense establishment has their way of doing things and their way of the pace at which acquisitions are made or decisions are made,

Speaker 10 but that pace doesn't meet the urgent requirements of fortifying our defenses. For example, we have made requests for some

Speaker 10 foreign military sales from the United States, which your government has also approved, but it is taking forever to deliver those

Speaker 10 articles of defense and supply chain issues, production issues, regulatory issues, all of these are challenges that need to be overcome. And in the meantime, there are some new innovations.

Speaker 10 Some of them are commercially based, some of them are dual use, some of them could expedite this process, some of them can you know dive into the manufacturing process to make significant reforms to modularize some of our acquisitions.

Speaker 10 And so I think we take this seriously and we are also looking at ways to not only partner with American tech, but also build and fortify Indigenous capabilities here.

Speaker 10 We,

Speaker 10 again, learning from theaters elsewhere, having an Indigenous capability to

Speaker 10 innovate and build what is needed in our society is also very important.

Speaker 10 But we also need to bridge that gap between traditional defense apparatus as well as all of the capabilities and innovations of our own private sector.

Speaker 9 I would like to talk about the artificial islands that China continues to construct off its shores. And

Speaker 9 can you talk a little bit about those islands? It seems like they're trying to push the borders out farther and farther.

Speaker 10 Yes. Well,

Speaker 10 over a decade ago, China claimed that

Speaker 10 they were only

Speaker 10 providing bases for resupplying fishing boats and for completely humanitarian purposes.

Speaker 10 But we see that now they are not only building artificial islands, but they are also militarizing them.

Speaker 10 And that is generating tremendous anxiety, I think, in our own neighborhood, among other Southeast Asian countries. And

Speaker 10 I think that

Speaker 10 certainly demonstrates my point that their

Speaker 10 expansionist intentions

Speaker 10 are not limited to Taiwan. They have broader global ambitions in changing the rules-based order or the rules as we know it.
And some of those rules involve the freedom of navigation.

Speaker 10 And freedom of navigation, again, is foundational to global trade, especially maritime trade. And so this is quite an alarming evolution.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 if

Speaker 10 China gets its way in terms of

Speaker 10 setting the rules for international behavior,

Speaker 10 advancing their system of governance

Speaker 10 to other parts of this world.

Speaker 10 Obviously, we have a very different idea of how the world should be run. We have a very different idea of how individual freedoms,

Speaker 10 as well as the role of the state.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 this is an ongoing balance that we have to ensure

Speaker 10 to protect our freedoms.

Speaker 9 What kind of militaristic capabilities have you seen on those islands?

Speaker 10 Well, they are projecting their naval capabilities certainly beyond the immediate coastal area of China.

Speaker 10 And it's not only

Speaker 10 on those artificial islands they are building, but they are projecting their military capabilities even to the Middle East, the Red Sea, Djibouti. They're building bases

Speaker 10 elsewhere around the world. And I think those also have some strategic consequences.

Speaker 10 The projection of their power, I think in the South China Sea specifically, has to do with

Speaker 10 their establishing

Speaker 10 or denying access to others in whether they are Taiwan contingencies or other security contingencies in this region. And

Speaker 10 those deployments, such posturing, goes way beyond the immediate vicinity of Taiwan.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 9 we see them buying farmland in the U.S., settling all kinds of different areas in Africa with the Belt and Road Initiative and buying land next to our military bases.

Speaker 9 And it's taken a long time for the U.S. to wake up to that.
But

Speaker 9 let's talk about cognitive warfare and disinformation.

Speaker 9 We spent some time at the

Speaker 9 a nonprofit organization that combats disinformation and cognitive warfare. And so I wanted to ask you,

Speaker 9 how are they doing that?

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 10 spreading disinformation is not unique to Taiwan. It's a global issue.
But

Speaker 10 the Chinese Communist Party is extremely aggressive at doing that, providing narratives and different stories and kind of amplifying their government propaganda and

Speaker 10 trying to internalize that in our society. And some main themes of their current wave of disinformation

Speaker 10 are aimed at

Speaker 10 discrediting the institution of Taiwan's democratic government.

Speaker 10 They are trying to sow divisions in our society,

Speaker 10 to sow doubts in our society

Speaker 10 about the strength of our own democracy. So the themes involve, I think, three main points.

Speaker 10 They are targeting our partnership with the United States. All of the Chinese propaganda that we are seeing right now is saying the U.S.
is not reliable, the United States can't be trusted,

Speaker 10 that this is a very weak partnership, that

Speaker 10 America is arming Taiwan

Speaker 10 not for the purpose of defending Taiwan, but to make Taiwan cannon fodder for the global competition with China. I mean, that is the theme of Chinese propaganda on the U.S.
side.

Speaker 10 The second part involves doubting our own military and our capabilities, and really putting us down and promoting Chinese technologies and their military capabilities.

Speaker 10 The third theme around their propaganda involves attacking this government.

Speaker 10 They have refused to dialogue diplomatically, but dialogue in a civil way with the democratically elected government of Taiwan, and instead chosen to sow disinformation, really attempting to not only discredit but to attack the legitimacy of this government.

Speaker 10 And so, around those three themes,

Speaker 10 they have multiple tools in spreading and to

Speaker 10 try to get their message around in our society. And to counter that, of course, we have many civic organizations.

Speaker 10 The government isn't always the most trusted institution, but fortunately, we have a very robust civil society and concerned citizens who are also shouldering responsibilities and countering such disinformation through media literacy.

Speaker 10 There are a lot of media literacy campaigns.

Speaker 10 And as far as our government is concerned, we also have a rapid response requirement.

Speaker 10 That is, whenever there is disinformation related to the government or our services, you know, it's a we have to demand a very quick response.

Speaker 10 You know, some of that involves even supply chains in our country, the prices of availability of eggs or vaccines or other issues, and

Speaker 10 we just need to set the record straight. And so, having mechanisms in which we can quickly respond to such disinformation, but also educating and empowering our citizens to

Speaker 10 be much more

Speaker 10 critical

Speaker 10 of

Speaker 10 the propaganda they see at face value and

Speaker 10 to be much more literate in analyzing and dissecting information. I think all of that is also very important and ongoing.

Speaker 9 What mechanisms are most effective for utilizing their propaganda and their disinformation?

Speaker 10 For utilizing it or for countering?

Speaker 9 For them to utilize it. Is it social media?

Speaker 10 Well, they are taking advantage of our very open and free media environment. Taiwan is a free society.

Speaker 10 We cherish the freedom of speech, the freedom of the media, and China is taking advantage of that. So they are widely using social media platforms to amplify their messages.

Speaker 10 They are also actively targeting civic groups. They selectively

Speaker 10 invite groups,

Speaker 10 fees paid to China, to try to get them on their side to

Speaker 10 support the amplification of their narratives in our civil society. They are also working with influencers in Taiwan,

Speaker 10 the marketers in Taiwan, to amplify their views. And

Speaker 10 they have many tools in their toolbox, and it's not easy to be as pervasive and sophisticated in countering that, or as systematic as they are.

Speaker 10 But we have no choice but to continue to find ways to fortify public confidence in our democracy, public confidence in defending our values and what's important for us.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I received a tip that they were recruiting YouTubers with 300,000, at least 300,000 subscribers to come over and spread their propaganda. Yes.

Speaker 9 And so exactly,

Speaker 9 how exactly are you combating that? Especially since Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook is doing away with the fact check program. How is Taiwan combating the disinformation more specifically?

Speaker 10 Well, you know, there was a time, especially during elections, the disinformation campaigns are particularly rampant.

Speaker 10 And there was a time when we sought partnerships with these major international social media platforms to

Speaker 10 support fact-checking programs, but also to make transparent some of the advertising.

Speaker 10 And especially if it involves advertising or amplifying political or campaign-related messages, we have required a degree of transparency, like who's paying for these ads, ads, and that the citizens should have a right to know that.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 some organizations are more cooperative than others in terms of setting up these mechanisms.

Speaker 10 But it is, you know, it's a constant struggle to catch up with all of the new tools that they are using to

Speaker 10 weaken our our unity, our cohesion, and public confidence.

Speaker 9 Do you feel that the Taiwanese people are becoming smart to the propaganda and are able to pick it out?

Speaker 10 I think it's an evolving learning process, but I can say from my own experience that I used to be a member of Congress here and kind of more in the grassroots. And

Speaker 10 we did so much media literacy, educational work, and reminders that there's a lot of disinformation out there that

Speaker 10 eventually my supporters and constituents would start sending me news articles and say, is this real or is this fake? And so I think minimally, you have this awareness that

Speaker 10 fake news is potentially out there. And we need to verify or double-check whether I should be their source of checking or others.
And that's why we have many NGOs that support

Speaker 10 more politically independent fact-checking

Speaker 10 apps and

Speaker 10 kind of information verification avenues for our citizens. And

Speaker 10 I do think that our society is aware that this information is a big problem. And so there is that understanding that we always need to think twice.
We need to check on the sources.

Speaker 10 We need to check on the information.

Speaker 10 And that is already a big step.

Speaker 10 Again, there are always new tricks, and these new tricks always require further responses. And part of that is also, on our side, understanding the source of disinformation and calling them out.

Speaker 10 When we can clearly identify patterns of where this disinformation is coming from. And there are what we call content farms in China that develop, they grow content and build content.
content

Speaker 10 to be disseminated in Taiwan. And when we trace

Speaker 10 different patterns and content back to China and call them out for that, it also helps to educate and raise awareness within our society.

Speaker 9 You know,

Speaker 9 Xi has said that he will invade Taiwan by 2027.

Speaker 9 How serious do you think he is?

Speaker 10 Yeah, when we look at these timelines, it involves intentions and it also involves capabilities.

Speaker 10 And I think ultimately for Taiwan,

Speaker 10 everything we are doing is to prevent a conflict from happening, whether it is 2027 or before that or beyond that. And so we need to work on both intentions as well as capabilities.

Speaker 10 On the capabilities side, again, investing in our own defense in an asymmetric way, in a way that provides a deterrent or complicates their calculations

Speaker 10 in

Speaker 10 having the confidence that this can be done in a way that

Speaker 10 does not impose serious costs on the Chinese Communist Party. I think that is the direction we are trying to move on in terms of

Speaker 10 balancing those capabilities.

Speaker 10 On the intention side,

Speaker 10 it's no secret that

Speaker 10 the PRC has laid claim to Taiwan and that they are enforcing that through their diplomatic, military, and economic tools on a global level.

Speaker 10 But what we need to do is to influence those calculations, not only in complicating decisions, but also

Speaker 10 promoting the

Speaker 10 idea that keeping the status quo is in the best interests of all stakeholders around the world, including China.

Speaker 10 We seek to maintain the status quo. We have our differences with the Communist Party of China, especially in how government should run and the relationship of government to the people.

Speaker 10 But the status quo has served

Speaker 10 as a stable framework for each side to pursue our own courses of development and prosperity.

Speaker 10 And we will not provoke or seek to disrupt the status quo, but neither will we submit to coercion. And we need to be clear about that.

Speaker 10 That

Speaker 10 their intention to coerce us, to threaten us,

Speaker 10 to push us into submitting to their political system will not work.

Speaker 10 And at the same time, of course, we need to do our own work in fortifying our public will to defend, our public will to

Speaker 10 protect our cherished way of life and our freedom.

Speaker 10 Within Taiwan,

Speaker 10 Freedom didn't just fall from the sky. People sacrificed and fought for our freedom.

Speaker 10 We have a history of colonialism, foreign occupation,

Speaker 10 and

Speaker 10 we have finally established the right of the Taiwanese people to determine our own future through democratic means, through elections,

Speaker 10 through the power of the vote. And we will not give that up.

Speaker 9 China has roughly 250 times the shipbuilding capacity of the United States. They have 50 percent of the shipbuilding capacity of the entire world, and the United States has 0.1 percent.

Speaker 9 How does the

Speaker 9 growing Chinese Navy stand up against the U.S. and its allies' navy?

Speaker 10 Well, I think those numbers that you just

Speaker 10 outlined

Speaker 10 have been quite alarming, and that is why

Speaker 10 we have seen the United States and many others working to overcome some of the manufacturing and building obstacles, and also

Speaker 10 working among allies and partners to

Speaker 10 ensure that a balance, a strategic balance, can be maintained to

Speaker 10 to keep the status quo that is so important for many of us.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 at the same time,

Speaker 10 from Taiwan's perspective,

Speaker 10 we know we can't match them ship by ship or asset by asset. And that is why we have developed

Speaker 10 or we have focused on asymmetric capabilities. And that is, we need to be smart, innovative.

Speaker 10 And we also need to

Speaker 10 look at our own indigenous manufacturing capabilities in developing

Speaker 10 systems that can be

Speaker 10 more effective in protecting what we so cherish.

Speaker 9 I mean,

Speaker 9 250 ships to one per the U.S.

Speaker 9 How do the capabilities, or do you have any idea of how those capabilities stand up against a U.S. fleet?

Speaker 9 Are they as technologically advanced, or are a lot of these container ships with a couple of weapons on them?

Speaker 10 Well, China's investments in the military have been

Speaker 10 growing significantly.

Speaker 10 And although they

Speaker 10 their propaganda targets our government as the reason they're doing this, but they started this this endeavor long before we came into government. And

Speaker 10 as they continue to expand their military investments, their technology is also advancing in many ways.

Speaker 10 Not only in the shipbuilding industry, but we see that they are making significant advances in the area of robotics and unmanned systems that we see in the next generation of warfare.

Speaker 10 And I think we do need to take those advances seriously. But at the same time,

Speaker 10 these technologies have not necessarily been fully tested in real conflict.

Speaker 10 And we certainly hope that Taiwan will not be their testing ground. And that is why we are doing everything we can to prevent conflict.

Speaker 10 But we see some indications that they are not only conducting drills, exercises, rehearsals around Taiwan and in far

Speaker 10 into the Indo-Pacific.

Speaker 10 But they are also

Speaker 10 exporting their capabilities to other theaters around the world.

Speaker 10 In the European theater, in the Middle East, we see a lot of Chinese parts and components and technologies being used and applied and tested. And I think that is also a very alarming trend.

Speaker 10 And I think that is also why

Speaker 10 we are working to build non-red supply chains or supply chains among the

Speaker 10 peace-loving or freedom-loving societies around the world so that, number one, we're not dependent on Chinese parts and components in everything we are trying to build. But number two,

Speaker 10 we will not be vulnerable to their coercion when such supply chains are disrupted. But also thirdly,

Speaker 10 we need to be aware that they are testing their military technologies, dual-use technologies globally, and

Speaker 10 that does pose a significant challenge to us.

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Speaker 9 Is there any specific technological advances in their military that

Speaker 9 you've witnessed that you find most alarming?

Speaker 10 Well, it's across the board. I see that in your show, you've interviewed experts in many areas, including space, land, and maritime

Speaker 10 capabilities that the Chinese have been,

Speaker 10 where they have been gaining serious advances. And

Speaker 10 it's all the more reason why, as

Speaker 10 those who cherish

Speaker 10 peace, stability, and freedom need to also put our heads together

Speaker 10 to develop smart, asymmetric, and effective responses.

Speaker 9 I learned yesterday that it seems that the vast majority of Taiwanese people are on board and taking this extremely seriously. I learned that 65%

Speaker 9 of Taiwanese would resist an invasion, which is up from 50% just a couple of years ago, I believe.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 we went to the Kuma Academy yesterday to talk about

Speaker 9 some of the things that regular everyday citizens of Taiwan are doing to prepare. Can you elaborate on some of that?

Speaker 10 Well, I think that's part of what we see as the broader whole of society or civil society resilience. And

Speaker 10 many polls, domestic public opinion polls over the years have

Speaker 10 demonstrated that the people of Taiwan are quite adamant about protecting our freedom, protecting our land, and protecting our way of life and our democracy.

Speaker 10 But that needs to go beyond just

Speaker 10 a will or an ideology. It has to be backed up by capabilities and good training.

Speaker 10 And so, you know, as a government, it is also our responsibility to support our society in having adequate tools to defend ourselves.

Speaker 9 We learned about evacuation. Yes.

Speaker 9 We learned.

Speaker 9 And so

Speaker 9 what are some of the more specifics that they are preparing for?

Speaker 10 Yes. Well,

Speaker 10 you had a...

Speaker 10 You had an experience of a minor earthquake yesterday.

Speaker 10 And in Taiwan, we're quite used to earthquakes and unfortunately, other natural disasters that sometimes cost lives and really have significant impact and damage on our society. And so our society is

Speaker 10 building resilience to deal with such impacts and damages to our societies. And so,

Speaker 10 you know, first aid training,

Speaker 10 other

Speaker 10 emergency response training,

Speaker 10 again, the stockpiling and resilience, sheltering, you know, all of these are important aspects of our preparedness.

Speaker 10 But what we are not so used to is, you know, historically, every disaster we've had is the military supports civil society.

Speaker 10 What we haven't really experienced is going the other way around, and our civil society supporting our defense, our military.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 the President's initiative on the whole of society, defense and resilience, is primarily aimed at how citizens can, number one, protect themselves.

Speaker 10 And by protecting themselves and defending themselves,

Speaker 10 it relieves some of the traditional burdens of government, but when able, also supportive of the continuity of government and protecting our freedom. And so

Speaker 10 many of these organizations at USINC, including the Kuma Academy and Ford Alliance and some other organizations, I really have that in mind. And that is the more prepared we are,

Speaker 10 the more

Speaker 10 capable we will be in reducing the harm and damage posed by unforeseen circumstances.

Speaker 9 When it comes to

Speaker 9 actually,

Speaker 9 I'd like to, you had mentioned energy earlier that you guys were investing in your energy and your power grid. How are you doing that?

Speaker 10 It's a continuing challenge, being an island and depending heavily on energy imports from elsewhere, including from the United States.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 we will continue to diversify our energy sources.

Speaker 10 We are also investing in making our energy delivery grid much more resilient.

Speaker 10 In the past, past,

Speaker 10 or the

Speaker 10 most efficient way or the low-cost way to manage energy was to have a big national grid. But that is vulnerable to disruptions and having a wider impact.

Speaker 10 When I was serving in the United States as Taiwan's representative, we had an incident of a colonial pipeline cyber attack,

Speaker 10 which impacted the delivery of oil and gas to

Speaker 10 many states in eastern USA.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 I think from our perspective is to build resilience so that these

Speaker 10 damages or impacts can be minimized. And our energy grid is also being reformed in that context.

Speaker 9 I learned yesterday that

Speaker 9 you guys are putting windmills out into the ocean. And not only is that serving for energy, but it also could be utilized as a blockade

Speaker 9 or

Speaker 9 a

Speaker 9 defensive military position. Is that true?

Speaker 10 Well, a lot of new technology or new

Speaker 10 structures around Taiwan have dual-use purposes. But as far as the windmills go, it's part of our efforts in diversifying our energy portfolio.

Speaker 10 And rather, being 100% dependent on imported energies, that we have at least some indigenous,

Speaker 10 localized energy-producing capabilities.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 in terms of the military aspect,

Speaker 10 historically, there have been known what we call red landing zones around Taiwan where

Speaker 10 amphibious landing would be relatively easier in a military context.

Speaker 10 I think every country around the world looks at their landing zones when they have significant threats and seek to fortify defenses within that context. And

Speaker 10 I think the new structures and changing

Speaker 10 landscape around our coastal areas have also had an impact on assessment of landing zones and different ways of defending ourselves.

Speaker 10 And our military, from their professional perspective, will continue to work with other friends around the world in looking at these and seeing how we can more effectively deter and defend.

Speaker 9 I'm sure you guys have wargamed this out several times.

Speaker 9 What does an invasion from China look like?

Speaker 9 Is it a kinetic war, or is it more of a cognitive war or is it

Speaker 9 them influencing the

Speaker 9 KMT political party?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I can't emphasize enough that

Speaker 10 we want to avoid a kinetic conflict.

Speaker 10 There are no winners in war.

Speaker 10 But the other gray zone

Speaker 10 coercion against Taiwan is already happening.

Speaker 10 There are military assets circling Taiwan.

Speaker 10 The cognitive warfare, the disinformation, the efforts at dividing our society, weakening our domestic unity and cohesion, that is already happening. The cyber attacks are already happening.

Speaker 10 And so we also need hybrid responses.

Speaker 10 And I do not want to

Speaker 10 really think about what a kinetic conflict will look like because it will be hell and a disaster for humanity.

Speaker 10 And I think it will also be harmful to the people of China.

Speaker 10 And we

Speaker 10 are

Speaker 10 continuing to invest in our defenses so that

Speaker 10 deterrence will actually work and that we can avoid such a conflict. But in the meantime,

Speaker 10 all of the other gray zone areas of coercion, threats, cyber attacks, that's ongoing. And we are in a race to make ourselves much more resilient.
I've used the word resilience many times today.

Speaker 10 And I do think that is a core spirit of who we are as Taiwanese people.

Speaker 10 I grew up in a Presbyterian family in Taiwan, and the emblem is a burning bush.

Speaker 10 The The burning bush is symbolic of

Speaker 10 resilience.

Speaker 10 It is also a

Speaker 10 defiance against oppression.

Speaker 10 It's about

Speaker 10 keeping the spirit going

Speaker 10 and about

Speaker 10 resurrection against persecution.

Speaker 10 And I think that particular spirit is not only part of my upbringing, but it is very much internalized among our society. And again, we've come a long way in making Taiwan also a land of the free.

Speaker 10 And no person or no country is too small to deserve freedom.

Speaker 10 So we are determined to protect that.

Speaker 9 What other countries are showing interest in this? You've mentioned Japan.

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 10 I think all the countries that have a stake

Speaker 10 in ensuring stability

Speaker 10 and ensuring that the global supply chains that foster prosperity are not disrupted, all those countries who have a shared commitment to freedom.

Speaker 10 in the belief in what I just said, that no country is too small to deserve freedom, I think should show an interest in this.

Speaker 10 And so, in our immediate neighborhood, of course, they are also impacted, not only because of Taiwan, but because the PRC military presence is expanding across the Indo-Pacific region.

Speaker 10 So, they tend to show an interest in this. But beyond that,

Speaker 10 we hope that the world will also stand with us

Speaker 10 in

Speaker 10 ensuring that peace will prevail, that conflict will never happen.

Speaker 9 Well, you guys are certainly

Speaker 9 a

Speaker 9 beacon of light for democracy in this part of the world. And I know that we're on a crunched timeline.
I just have a couple more questions. I want to ask you, what does the world look like

Speaker 9 if Taiwan were to be invaded?

Speaker 10 Well, I hope that hypothetical scenario never happens.

Speaker 9 Me too.

Speaker 10 But I think, as I said at the outset,

Speaker 10 Taiwan is critical in all of the modern technologies that surround the daily lives of people around the world.

Speaker 10 And Taiwan is also on the front lines of protecting

Speaker 10 freedom. and our values, our belief in a system of government that empowers the people.

Speaker 10 And all of that would be at stake.

Speaker 10 And again,

Speaker 10 everything we are doing is to prevent that particular scenario from happening.

Speaker 9 What gives you so much confidence in the United States? You saw

Speaker 9 we spent 20 years in Afghanistan. You saw how we left.
Caveat to that, Pete Hegsteth just said in Singapore that we will stand with Taiwan. I'm just curious on your thoughts of

Speaker 9 why you trust us.

Speaker 10 Well, I think ultimately we have to trust ourselves. And that is why we are focused on enhancing our own defense capabilities and localizing, making indigenous

Speaker 10 the

Speaker 10 range of things that we have to do to protect ourselves. And then secondly, we work on our partnerships.

Speaker 10 And our partnership with the United States is based on the legal framework of the Taiwan Relations Act. That has withstood

Speaker 10 different administrations across the political spectrum over decades.

Speaker 10 And we have continued to try to build bipartisan support. for this partnership.
And I think that is one of the areas of rare agreement within the United States.

Speaker 10 That is the importance of sustaining a strong partnership with Taiwan. And through that, we continue to acquire and build our own defensive capabilities that add to our indigenous efforts.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 ultimately, dealing with the People's Republic of China and the Communist Party's aggressive expansionist intentions.

Speaker 10 Taiwan is on the front lines, but we will not be the only ones affected.

Speaker 9 Wrapping up the interview, I just

Speaker 9 want to say that

Speaker 9 with all things considering

Speaker 9 in the situation right now, I think that Taiwan is in

Speaker 9 a very unique position.

Speaker 9 because

Speaker 9 if the rest of the world does not stand with you and China were to invade,

Speaker 9 they will become the most technologically advanced country in the entire world

Speaker 9 and they have a lot of adversaries. And so

Speaker 9 I think that even if they don't say it, I think that the entire world will be here to aid you in the event that that happens.

Speaker 9 And with that being said, I just, like I said, it was an honor to interview you. I really appreciate your time.
and I just wish you the best, and I hope I can return soon.

Speaker 10 Thank you. Will,

Speaker 10 standing with Taiwan is critical to preventing that disaster from happening. Yes, ma'am.
Yes. Thank you for standing with us.
Thank you.