#198 Blerim Skoro - CIA & FBI Asset / Al-Qaeda Infiltrator

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Speaker 8 We're going to come to the points how I was offered from ISIS to become leader of ISIS. So, September 11, I'm in a cell with one of the terrorists.

Speaker 8 The first flight hit, he jumps on the bugging bed and happy. This is from my leader.
Now, I'm thinking if I kill this guy in a prison or not.

Speaker 8 I see two guys coming down, and they pull the gun, shot me four times, not once.

Speaker 9 They taught you how to make bombs.

Speaker 8 Absolutely.

Speaker 8 Blarum Scoro, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
Honor to be in your show.

Speaker 9 Honor to have you.

Speaker 8 Thank you.

Speaker 9 Band, you've got a hell of a life story. Growing up in Kosovo, coming in, being recruited by the CIA as an asset, infiltrating al-Qaeda, an assassination attempt.

Speaker 9 I mean, this is going to be a really good interview. Really good interview.

Speaker 8 Yes, it is going to be good.

Speaker 9 And your story is so interesting. They're doing a documentary about you.
Yes. When's that coming coming out?

Speaker 8 Hopefully, we're planning soon. Yeah, I don't have too much control over that.
It's people involved, so but it's gonna come soon.

Speaker 9 Do you know where it's gonna go?

Speaker 8 Uh,

Speaker 8 we are guesting

Speaker 8 May 21st to May 26th in California for six days, and after that, I will find out what's gonna be the next step. But I am in California, in Hollywood, uh, from May 21st to May 26th.

Speaker 9 Congratulations, thank you very much. Congratulations, thank you, thank you.
Well, everybody starts off with a introduction here. So

Speaker 9 here we go.

Speaker 9 Blerum Skoro, Kosovan Albanian immigrant and former Yugoslav army soldier who deserted to escape ethnic persecution during the Kosovo war, turned to crime to save your family from genocide, smuggling drugs to fund their escape from Kosovo, only to face an eight-year prison sentence in 2000.

Speaker 9 Then became a CIA asset who infiltrated al-Qaeda after 9-11, all for a chance to reunite with your American-born wife and daughters.

Speaker 9 You survived an assassination attempt in 2010 while serving as a CIA informant, a husband, and a father who won a landmark immigration case in 2022. And now you drive a cab in New York City.

Speaker 9 Your story is the subject of a new documentary called The Accidental Spy, which hopefully comes out in May. So a couple of things to

Speaker 9 knock out here real quick. We have a, I have a Patreon account

Speaker 9 and we've grown quite the community there. We actually,

Speaker 9 we just took all their names. We're building a new studio.
It's about three and a half times the size of this. We took all 28,000 people who have ever been a Patreon member and supported us.

Speaker 9 And we just put that on the wall. inside and the whole studio will be built around it.
But one of the things I do is I offer them the opportunity opportunity to ask each and every guest a question.

Speaker 9 A question, excuse me. So, this is from Tin Dog.

Speaker 9 Do you consider yourself a patriot of the U.S. or a subversive because of the betrayal? Where is your head at today?

Speaker 8 I am 100% American Patriot.

Speaker 9 I thought you would say that. I thought you would say that.

Speaker 8 And I'm proud to be that.

Speaker 9 Good, good. Well, we're proud to have you.
Thank you. We're proud to have you.
So, quick answer. But,

Speaker 9 and then lastly,

Speaker 9 you watch the show. So, you know, everybody gets a gift.

Speaker 8 Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Speaker 9 Vigilance elite gummy bears. Yes.
People in all 50 states. There you go.

Speaker 9 But

Speaker 9 this is going to be a heavy interview. And I hope.
I hope we go down some rabbit holes. I mean, just since you've been here, you brought up the fact that

Speaker 9 something about Uranian coming out of Russia. I definitely want to dive into that and

Speaker 9 some of your outlook on Syria that we just discussed off camera.

Speaker 9 But let's start with life in Kosovo. So you're born in 1971 in Kosovo during a time of ethnic tension under Yugoslav rule.

Speaker 8 I was

Speaker 8 obligatory service in Yugoslav army.

Speaker 8 What was the worst war ever existed in Balkans?

Speaker 8 I know you've been seeing a lot and a lot of the viewers and a lot of the guests, but I saw also very bad and a lot. I was in a group with one of the most dangerous criminal

Speaker 8 Rajnatovich known aka Arkhan. Wow.

Speaker 8 And I see,

Speaker 8 I witnesses with my own eyes, behaving. killing, rape,

Speaker 8 you name it. All of it.
And I survived.

Speaker 9 How young were you when you started witnessing those things?

Speaker 8 I tell you, my 20 years birthday was in the military.

Speaker 8 So I started 19 years old.

Speaker 9 So you started seeing beheadings, rapes, all these kind of things as a young people. Absolutely.

Speaker 8 As a kid,

Speaker 9 as a 20-year-old kid.

Speaker 9 What was the first time you saw a beheading?

Speaker 8 I didn't believe it. First, I thought it's like...

Speaker 8 like something you watch in the movie. I saw a woman getting raped from those

Speaker 8 paramilitary groups of Arkhan.

Speaker 8 And there was a Croatians. I was in the Yugoslav army.
And

Speaker 8 to me,

Speaker 8 I didn't believe because when we

Speaker 8 called for duty, we called for duty to serve the country against the enemy outside, not inside of the own people.

Speaker 8 So, Croats, that time when I was serving, it was still Yugoslavia, which I started,

Speaker 8 I started my service March 20, 1991.

Speaker 8 And I was

Speaker 8 serving even

Speaker 8 that time, Albanians from Kosovo, we had no rights. We was considered like second-class citizens.

Speaker 8 Because history of ourselves,

Speaker 8 Kosovo used to be always part of the Albania. Because the communism dictator, it broke up and the Yugoslav took over my country.
But the history, it's always there. It's black and white.

Speaker 8 We cannot change it.

Speaker 8 Some people may like, some people don't like, but Kosovo was part of the Albania so we start this uprise you know to be separated from Yugoslavia but we couldn't do it we always had a lot of issues and stuff and

Speaker 8 we couldn't do it then I was called in March 20

Speaker 8 to 1991 and I start I finished a three month of training which is in the beginning it was eight weeks if I don't make mistake and they start war in Slovenia

Speaker 8 I was in a training camp in one of the cities of Yugoslavia city called Shabats. It's very close to the Croatian border.
That's where

Speaker 8 I started my

Speaker 8 military training for war. That's a little different than regular training.
That's how I came out to see one of the worst criminal Rajnatovich Arkhan.

Speaker 8 And there was volunteers. I was regular military.
And we started those training and stuff. And one time,

Speaker 8 I never talked in my life. CIA knew this part, but my family, of course, knows.
When we was in the training, you have some pictures. We can demonstrate if you want later.

Speaker 8 In the camp, it's a pictures in the camp. I was ordered, it was stolen weapons in that camp from

Speaker 8 those volunteers. And when we say volunteers, it's a two different groups.
I was in regular military, and there was those Chetniks volunteers.

Speaker 8 They're butchering people, women, raping, those with a group of Rajneta Vicharkan.

Speaker 8 And since the military officers saw me like I was a little kind of skilled soldier, they put me to be security, not to allow nobody to move in a base.

Speaker 8 And group of six or seven of them, they tried to sneak in and I tell them, you cannot go in, stop.

Speaker 8 And they didn't want to stop. and then I second time because that's how it was

Speaker 8 our rules you ask them one time to stop if they don't stop then second time you pull the gun you put the bullet in the chamber and you're ready to shoot and they don't want to stop that's first time in my life I shoot in a people that was

Speaker 8 June or July of 1991

Speaker 8 and I was age 20.

Speaker 8 I never talked in no media this part of the story, first time in my life but when I said I didn't talk CIA knew what everything so when you come to I did a polygraph test to the CIA but we're not gonna change the subject where it's beginning and

Speaker 8 so you you shot in a group of six or seven

Speaker 8 volunteers of the Chetniks the worst chetniks you have the picture I did send it to you guys the picture I shot in them with the AK-47 like nothing like first time in my life shooting to the people was that in age 20.

Speaker 8 Did you kill them?

Speaker 8 I cannot say that if I killed, but they don't want to say it, but I know everybody was laid down in the ground, nobody was moving. But I pulled the trigger, and I know I'm a sharp shooter.

Speaker 8 I don't miss easy.

Speaker 8 I'm very good in the shooting. So

Speaker 8 maybe one of them went down, but definitely I did shot in a group of them. And then that's how I become like

Speaker 8 very

Speaker 8 honored to the military, Yugoslav military. Like,

Speaker 8 you know, they, I created trust.

Speaker 8 And then we still continue in a training camp in

Speaker 8 a city shopbats.

Speaker 8 Exactly.

Speaker 9 You didn't go to make sure they were dead or anything?

Speaker 8 No, I cannot. You're not allowed because the officers come and escort me right away and they took them out and we're not allowed.
You know, it's strict rules.

Speaker 8 If you shoot, then they have to escort you,

Speaker 8 keep you in a safe place for for a couple of days and I was given a pistol extra from the my one of the

Speaker 8 officers in case he said if you get problem with one gun you have a extra spare gun so he kind of liked me and he gave me his personal gun and I kept for a couple of weeks or a month wow did that bother you at age 20 to to potentially kill

Speaker 8 Honestly, I feel very great

Speaker 8 because I knew that I was shooting in Serbians and we considered them enemy of my country, enemy of my people. And in my, for example, I didn't talk too much

Speaker 8 from all these 35 years about this. I left because, you know, sometimes legacy, it's good to leave in the end of the story of your life.

Speaker 8 But my family knows very well the story, my kids know very well, and it's 100% true. And I communicate after 35 years with officers who helped me 35 years ago.

Speaker 8 I communicated just recently, a couple of months ago.

Speaker 9 No kidding, I still remember it.

Speaker 8 They are retired in a Yugoslav military, former Yugoslav military, and they said we was proud what you did that time.

Speaker 9 And what did you call them?

Speaker 8 Did you call them Chetchems?

Speaker 8 No,

Speaker 8 it was a Yugoslav officer captain first class.

Speaker 8 It was regular officers in Yugoslav military. So that's Serbians, Chetniks.
Chetniks. So when I shot, I shot in the Chetniks.
So this was Yugoslav, regular Yugoslav military.

Speaker 8 So it's a little too different. My officer didn't like them because he knew they are criminals.
So he liked us. So he liked the regular military, but he didn't like the volunteers.
Wow.

Speaker 8 Because volunteers is the one who commit the genocide. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 And what about the beheadings and the rapes?

Speaker 9 Who did you witness?

Speaker 8 I witnessed

Speaker 8 those reserve,

Speaker 8 those volunteers, Chetniks, did to the Croats

Speaker 8 so I witnessed a woman got

Speaker 8 I know one part for example it was a woman didn't have a 12 years child kids she had a baby it was a nine month or ten month old they killed the baby in front of me and the rest of the soldiers and they raped the lady and then they killed the lady too

Speaker 8 So I witnessed that it was somewhere in August of 1991. I was present myself.
And then there was another story.

Speaker 8 A former Yugoslav military guy finished his service and he came to visit his family in the city Vukovar. I was one of the most dangerous wars in the city of Vukovar.

Speaker 8 So he came in that to visit his family because he finished his service.

Speaker 8 When they found out, he came over there, they killed his father and they killed a former soldier who served in Yugoslav military and they shot him from the behind.

Speaker 8 They execute him, they kill his father first and then execute him. I witnessed that too.
And then another part,

Speaker 8 these Chepniks,

Speaker 8 you have the pictures, they throw hand grenades, they put a woman and kids in one of the basement. And I remember family, last name Chutura, I helped them.

Speaker 8 They throw hand grenades in the basement and me and one of my officers, he's originally from Bosnia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it was regular military. He said it was around 2 a.m.

Speaker 8 He said, let's go. We hear the noise.
They held asking for help. We went in a basement.
Where we saw in that basement all murdered, killed women and kids. And I went in and it was a little slippery.

Speaker 8 And I said to the officer, you have any match or anything? Because it's slippery. And my foot was inside of the baby's body, right inside at age 20 and

Speaker 8 it was an old lady over there calling for help in Croatian

Speaker 8 pomognomy pomognomy and I went and took the lady she was old butcher from hand grenades and I took her out less than 10 15 minutes she passed away in my hand I tried to help her

Speaker 8 and Then after like

Speaker 8 start seeing all this, then you get used to it's a war, you you know of course you young in an age but when you see all this thing then it becomes like it's a normal you know you're in a war war you have to do you have to defend yourself protect yourself you not to get killed and we did the best for me for example we never

Speaker 8 shoot innocent civilians even i was more pro-croats i was more able

Speaker 8 dreaming to help Croats because we are more close with Croats than Serbs. Serbs is Chetniks who are allied with Russia and we consider all its enemy.
So

Speaker 9 the Serbs and the Chetniks are the same.

Speaker 8 Are the same, yes.

Speaker 8 Chetniks are

Speaker 8 the base of them.

Speaker 8 The more fanatics, like we have Islamic radical al-Qaeda and stuff, so Chetniks are in Serbians like that.

Speaker 8 So if we compare with Al-Qaeda, so Chetniks are like Al-Qaeda.

Speaker 9 And they were doing this to your people?

Speaker 8 Not to my people, to Croats. Then after a little while, when they started war in Kosovo, they was doing to my people.
But first, this was 1991. And to my people, it was 96, 97, 98, 99.

Speaker 8 So in 91, I was in a Yugoslav military. Jeez.

Speaker 9 How common was this?

Speaker 8 Look, it was not unusual. Like, for my generation, like,

Speaker 8 even when I give give an interview before in like short interview in English, one of the newspaper, I see people who I grew up, they don't know me much because

Speaker 8 we was young, 15, 16 years, and I don't talk about stories like that.

Speaker 8 It's not normal for me to talk, you know, because like one time I had nightmares, I couldn't sleep for a little while because when I start talking about past, what I saw,

Speaker 8 you have a trouble sleeping, you know, and I never want my kids to know this kind of stories because I want my kids to grow up to love people, not to hate.

Speaker 8 Because if you tell your child what you've been through, then they're going to

Speaker 8 have a bad feeling thinking, look, my father, what he went through, you know, I want to hate those people too.

Speaker 8 So I don't want to give

Speaker 8 my kids

Speaker 8 idea to hate anybody. I want my kids, they are born and raised in U.S.
I want to be free, not to be having hate in their mind, because when you start having hate, you have no space to love people.

Speaker 8 So I wanted to be educated, extremely free and good, not to have ideas of the wars and murders and death. So I want to be very calm and educated and civilized.

Speaker 9 Wow, but there's not a lot of people that think like that.

Speaker 8 No.

Speaker 9 That's pretty big of you.

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Speaker 9 How did you get into the military? Was it voluntary or did they, was it somewhat of a draft?

Speaker 8 No, I was obligatory military. That time when I was in Yugoslavia, you must serve.
There was no choice because I couldn't have no passport. I couldn't leave the country.
So it was a complete dictator.

Speaker 8 You know, you must, between age 18 and 20, at age 18, you have to go in a recruiting center for four or five days. So if you are capable to serve.
So I was in a recruiting center, I was 18 years old.

Speaker 8 And then at age 19, they sent me the letter. I have to serve the country.

Speaker 8 And I took that responsibility. Then I went and served the country.
I thought, you know, I'm serving a normal Yugoslavian country. It's not like I'm going to be part of the

Speaker 8 committing genocide. It was a clear genocide.
Nothing,

Speaker 8 it's no secrets.

Speaker 8 I passed that situation.

Speaker 8 I was there until October 13 when complete Croatian city, Vukova, collapsed. And I say it, I repeat it again.
Like I grew up with the people, they didn't even believe.

Speaker 8 When they heard a little bit the story, they said, no, it's not that.

Speaker 8 But trust me, I passed very ruthless war look i've been in afghanistan i've been in a country iraq and syria and lebanon and jordan and all these countries i i saw the wars i saw what al-qaeda did but uh this war was also dangerous too wow wow and how long were you involved in that until uh october 13 1991 from march uh 1991 until october 13.

Speaker 8 so around almost eight nine months and who was committing the genocide? Serbs, Chetniks.

Speaker 9 Were you guys committing?

Speaker 8 Me personally, not.

Speaker 9 No.

Speaker 8 But group in my side, yes.

Speaker 9 Yes. Absolutely.
How was the woman being raped? How did that happen?

Speaker 8 It's very bad. I saw, I can tell you this.
I remember one picture I saw like today. I never forget that young, maybe 35 years old, one that took that child.

Speaker 8 I couldn't do much, you know, because

Speaker 8 look,

Speaker 8 I thought many times if I turn my gun to everybody and kill all this, but the problem was family, because if he was doing that to Serbs and Chetniks, they was going to execute my family.

Speaker 8 Because that's how they used to do to Albanians. If Albanian guy shot the Serbian or Chetnik, then they was going to kill the family.
So then I was ruining my family. It's not me to get killed.

Speaker 8 I always thought I was like, since I grew up, I grew up with no fear. Like,

Speaker 8 I know one day I'm gonna die.

Speaker 9 I mean, weren't they trying to kill you anyways?

Speaker 8 They tried. They tried.
It was a time they said, look, we're gonna crucify him.

Speaker 8 When I shot those groups, there was rumors, oh, we're gonna butcher him, we're gonna make a cross in his body, those four asses.

Speaker 8 You know, Chetniks, they have four asses, cross and four asses, because they knew that I was Muslim-born. So they were you

Speaker 8 sending me threats to the soldiers and stuff but look Sean I'll be very honest I was ready to die when I started up military I said regardless if I die today or after 50 years one day I'm gonna die so I had no kids I was not married I was young so the age is you know the most dangerous age age is you don't fear nothing You know, not everybody.

Speaker 8 I'm telling you,

Speaker 8 you have kids. Like I can tell you, example, I have a boy 12 years old.
If you see him, he's a big giant boy, but he will not kill cockaroches. He's so like polite and nice.

Speaker 8 He was a daddy, no, don't kill that, you know. But us was different because we had that hate between us and Serbians.
So we grew up, my grandfather was executed in a communist country.

Speaker 8 My mother's father, he was executed in 1940. So, and we grew up, you know, having that hate.
So, if I knew how my grandfather was executed, so now automatically my parents educate me, you know, look,

Speaker 8 we live here, but those are our enemy. You know, my grandfather was killed.
So, now we cannot trust them. So, I was very educated and

Speaker 8 trained to not to trust them. So, to be always prepared, you know, if you have a ever to come close, you have to defend yourself.
Or you're going to get killed or you have to kill.

Speaker 9 So, this was also a religious war?

Speaker 8 It's not a religious war because

Speaker 8 like us,

Speaker 8 it was more like we grew up in communists. Albanians was not religious the way it's in the Middle East.
You know, Albanians, we marry among Christians, we don't have no issue.

Speaker 8 Albanian, it's like one of the best examples you can live in the

Speaker 8 whole world because we have no issue, Christians or Muslims. We are friends, friends, we celebrate all Christmas, Ramadan, all together.
So we have no issues between us.

Speaker 8 Of course, lately, we have very dangerous fanatics, we are crazy fanatics, because Albanians came out to

Speaker 8 go in a Syrian war over four number one country from the population, give more jihadists to the ISIS and al-Qaeda than any different countries. So, but

Speaker 8 us, we was not religious like that. So, we was modernized, educate, drink.
I was parring. I was drinking.
I was

Speaker 8 doing life not different from you and the rest of the world. So we was no issue with religion.

Speaker 9 But

Speaker 9 they used to look us like that.

Speaker 8 The other side always used to look at us, oh, they are dangerous because they are Muslims, you know, they can threat us, they can kill us. But we was not like that.

Speaker 9 And they were supposedly Christian?

Speaker 8 Christians, yes, Orthodox Christians,

Speaker 8 not different from Russians. Holy shit.
But Croatians are Catholics. With Croats, we have very good relation.
We never had issues with them.

Speaker 8 Only with the Serbians, Chetniks, was they are, you know, like Slavic.

Speaker 8 No different from Russians.

Speaker 9 Wow. What happened? What?

Speaker 9 What happened with your parents? Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Speaker 8 One brother passed away here in eight, nine years ago. One of them, oldest one, is in Switzerland.

Speaker 8 I bring my parents and the rest. And my parents passed away a few years ago in the United States.
They're all US citizens, so I bring everybody. I'm the one I sponsor for bringing all my family.

Speaker 8 Only my wife and kids are born and raised here. My parents become nationalized citizens from me here.

Speaker 9 And did they fight too?

Speaker 8 No, my parents not. My father served in the Yugoslav military two years, but he served in 1960.

Speaker 8 Your brothers? My brother did service, but he didn't caught up in a war. The youngest one, he came young here in the US, so he didn't went in a war.

Speaker 9 How did it end?

Speaker 8 The end was

Speaker 8 good. My older brother he served in the Yugoslav military.
He did in 1988. So that time was no war.

Speaker 8 And my father did in 1940. It was no war that time.

Speaker 8 And the rest of the family didn't serve.

Speaker 9 How did the war end?

Speaker 8 Very brutal. Still

Speaker 8 it's a threat. Croatia separated.
Yugoslavia is now seven countries. It should start Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, and Kosovo, Montenegro.

Speaker 8 So it's seven different countries from Yugoslavia but still we have little issues.

Speaker 8 We have a US military in Kosovo, which is our number one protector. To us, it's

Speaker 8 Albanians, we believe God is in the sky, America, it's in the ground.

Speaker 8 For Albanians, it's Albania and Kosovo, it's like a 53rd state of US.

Speaker 8 We are more pro

Speaker 8 but we have also issues with the terrorists, with fanatics, definitely, we have a problem. So it's not like we are clean.
We're not,

Speaker 8 because it was an Albanian from Kosovo who came out in Frankfurt, Germany, a few years ago, if I don't make a mistake, six, seven years ago. He executed two U.S.
Marines in Frankfurt, Germany.

Speaker 8 He shot two or three. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 not to pass the in 1991, October 9, 1991, I tried to escape from the military, from the war zone on November 9, October 9, I'm sorry. And I got caught in

Speaker 8 entering the Belgrade airport, and my father was in a bus. And my brother-in-law, they was trying to help me to escape the war.
And I got arrested from military police. And that was one of the

Speaker 8 worst ever days I passed in my entire life. I was tortured so badly when I had to use the bathroom.
I was

Speaker 8 leaking blood. That's how they tortured me, Yugoslav military.

Speaker 9 How did they torture you?

Speaker 8 They handcuffed me from the right hand with the left, and they were hitting me those black sticks they used to use in the military. I was bleeding badly.

Speaker 8 They was letting me stay in that and they was doing in the right foot just to have me to admit I'm leaving, I'm a deserter from military. And Sean, for me was

Speaker 8 or me to die or my family. So I decided to sacrifice myself, not to sacrifice my family.
So what I did, I took the pain. They tortured me so badly and I never admit it.

Speaker 8 I said I'm gonna die that day in military prison. I'm not gonna admit that I'm leaving the military.

Speaker 8 They torture me so badly after four days because in Yugoslavia, I was a communist have a little skills because 1981 my father was a police for four years in Yugoslav police that I'm a regular police so I learned how they when they torture people if you take a pain for 72 hours they will let you go

Speaker 8 so if you don't take the pain and you give up you say yes I did that then

Speaker 8 Of course, you're going to get tortured and you're going to get to prison. So now it was two things, or me to die or my family.

Speaker 8 So I never admitted and they took me from a military prison that sent me right away in a war zone. And you have a piece of paper proof.
I send it to you guys and you can see it clear.

Speaker 8 In October 13, one of the officers, Captain Kablinovich Voyo, he's the one who helped me sign that

Speaker 8 permit. I'm going to be for two days visiting my family.

Speaker 8 But actually I was not going to visit the family, but he was helping me to leave the war because I was going to go in military court minimum 25 years just to enter the military court because I did that

Speaker 8 shot against Chetniks. So I was between 25 years or death sentence.
So I had no choice to do that and I successfully left Yugoslav army. My family thought I was dead.

Speaker 8 I went in my city Kosovo that night. it was a 4 a.m midnight in the morning and i jumped from the wall all my family thought i was dead when i knocked the window

Speaker 8 complete family was waiting for my dead body to send it from military when they saw me live in my city everybody thought i was dead i got killed because i was arrested from the military police and then finally I received help from some family members and I left Yugoslavia in October 14, 1991.

Speaker 8 I went in Switzerland. Took me 10 days' journey to enter Switzerland from Yugoslavia.

Speaker 9 How did you get to Switzerland from Yugoslavia?

Speaker 8 It was a long journey. I'll be very honest,

Speaker 8 not easy young guy to do like that. It's, I guess, my nature, it's a little bit

Speaker 8 like brave.

Speaker 8 They helped me to give me a fake passport, not fake passport, fake

Speaker 8 my picture, but different name.

Speaker 8 I never traveled like that but I guess God gave me some kind of skills my nature. That's how even I came out to CIA because I was capable.
You know, I'm a

Speaker 8 street smart. Even I was not who knows what kind of education in a school, but I was a natural street smart.
And I came out to use that passport. My name was

Speaker 8 Yakup Ramusholi when I used that passport. I did use at least all in in my life maybe 10 or 13 different names by now.
So

Speaker 8 I took that passport, I traveled from Macedonia to Bulgaria. From Bulgaria, I flew to Italy, and in Italy, I get arrested.

Speaker 8 They were not letting me go through from Bulgaria to Italy. I had a little cash with me, and they keep me one night in a prison in Italy, and they sent me back to Bulgaria.
But now,

Speaker 8 if I don't come out with my ideas to enter Switzerland, if I go in Yugoslavia, I was going to be in a military prison and

Speaker 8 life or death. So, when you have this kind of situation, then now you gotta do whatever it takes to survive.
You know, it's not like

Speaker 8 you have experience, but experience you guys do is

Speaker 8 different because you have a strong support. When you have a US military or US government, you feel more strong.
You know, it's a different feeling. But me, I don't have that

Speaker 8 support. I have my support is only me.

Speaker 8 How I'm going to survive. So I was returning from Italy to Bulgaria, and I called from my one of a couple of best friends and a family member to come and help me.

Speaker 8 So they smuggled me from Bulgaria to Romania illegal. And then from Romania, I did all my trips:

Speaker 8 Romania, Hungaria, Germany, Germany, Belgium, Belgium, France, France, Switzerland. I entered Switzerland in October 26, 1991.
And all you all that was, I mean, how did you fund that?

Speaker 8 With money.

Speaker 8 How much money does it take? It took that time, I believe

Speaker 8 it was not over 2,300 marks that time. So basically like $2,300.

Speaker 8 Because I was always using buses, local buses and stuff. So to pay a little cheap and stuff, not to be expensive.
I never pay smuggler. So everything in my life I did, I never pay smuggler.

Speaker 8 All I did myself. I used to use.

Speaker 9 You did this all yourself.

Speaker 8 All myself.

Speaker 8 Just using my connection, friends, you know, like that, and knowing me how I was brave and tough. So always I used to receive support.

Speaker 9 Right, that's a lot of friends in a lot of countries.

Speaker 8 Yes, yes, I do. Even today,

Speaker 9 Italy, Germany, Belgium, France.

Speaker 8 Sweden, I mean, France, Belgium, yes.

Speaker 9 Holy shit. Yes.
So you knew people in every one of these countries?

Speaker 8 Every one of the countries, yes.

Speaker 9 Who were they? Were they family members?

Speaker 8 Albanians. Albanians.
Everywhere Albanians. It's all connection.
Even today, I'm speaking to you.

Speaker 8 I can easily say it, if you pick a globe and turn and put the finger, I'm sure I have a friend somewhere somehow.

Speaker 8 It's kind of I'm very friendly with people and I'm loyal to my friends. It's not the job I did.
My friends are never bad guys. I never have a friend, bad guys.

Speaker 8 When I said friend, bad guys, meaning hating the United States.

Speaker 8 All my friends are good with U.S.

Speaker 8 Good with a life.

Speaker 8 Regardless what they do with the personal life, when it's come to choose a US or terrorist, I don't have any friends who side with terrorists. All I have friends who side 100% with US.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 9 And so what happens when you get to Switzerland?

Speaker 8 I came out in Switzerland and

Speaker 8 then I have

Speaker 8 10 or 15 first cousins in Switzerland, included my older brother. He was working at that time in Switzerland.
I stayed in Switzerland for a couple of months from October to December.

Speaker 8 In December 23rd, I started working. After one week in Switzerland, I started working construction in Switzerland.
Illegal, staying illegal. And I get arrested two days before Christmas.

Speaker 8 I'm sleeping in an apartment in Switzerland and my brother and my first cousins ten of them they was in a club we were they was all young and they come in with two cars I think 11 or 12 guys and the police obviously know only Albanians can beat six seven guys in one small car so they get arrested so they come now they

Speaker 8 When they arrest, they come close to the building I used to live. But nobody knew what floor I was living because one of my cousins

Speaker 8 gave me free apartment for a few months because I came from the military. Everybody knew it what I been through in the Yugoslav military.
So they was kind of respecting me from my past, what I did it.

Speaker 8 So they kind of like treated me a little special than the rest of the friends and cousins. I was like

Speaker 8 a brave man to them and a special treatment. So they arrested me now.
And I was December 23rd. The police come 3 a.m.
in the apartment where I used to live in Geneva. And

Speaker 8 me and one of my cousins were sleeping. The bell was ringing that night and

Speaker 8 he said, it's a bell. I said, okay, wake up and just open the door.
And he said, but I see people with a white shirt. I said, it's okay, you can open the door.

Speaker 8 They just went in, 10, 15 cops, the Swiss police, with the guns and everything. And they're telling us, Don't move, don't move.
And they're in French. And I was very little at that time in French.

Speaker 8 Now I know because I used to live in

Speaker 8 Geneva side and Quebec side, so I'm good in five, six different languages. And now they're asking me for a passport.
They turn the light on, and the passport was next to the TV.

Speaker 8 And that night, I see very bad dreams in a war. And he said,

Speaker 8 Your name, and I said, is Samoa Jacob Ramoucholi in the French. And he looked at, oh shit, now

Speaker 8 what I'm going to do, you know, and he, the other one gets arrested, my brother gets arrested, and 10 other 15, 10 or 12 first cousins, all of them get arrested together.

Speaker 8 They send us in a prison in Geneva. I stay for four or five days in Geneva.
Now it's my plan to survive because everybody is going to get deported in Yugoslavia.

Speaker 8 and nobody's from military only me from the all of us so what I'm gonna do I need to plan something myself they're taking us from Geneva to Zurich and from Zurich

Speaker 8 Tikia to Yugoslavia and now everybody walking in the airplane it was

Speaker 8 two days after Christmas for between Christmas and New Year 1991 I'm planning my plan B using my skills. Everybody moving in a flight, I'm the last

Speaker 8 to enter the airplane. And I'm telling the police, I'm saying to him, Monsieur, to me, don't the passport, which is, can you give me the passport? He said, yes, I want to show it to you something.

Speaker 8 And he gave me the passport with a boarding ticket.

Speaker 8 I took the passport,

Speaker 8 complete passport in front of him. And I throw in a floor and I push the police.
And then they punch me. That's where I was looking.
I was looking to get hit, so to seek the asylum.

Speaker 8 And I was in a floor. Everybody walked in a flight.
They closed the flight right away, the door. Now they jumped all the police in me.
What I did? I said, Muasa Desertaire of Military de Yugoslaví.

Speaker 8 And they got stuck. When you mention desertaire, meaning the deserter, it was from Yugoslav military because that time a lot of Albanians was deserting the Yugoslav military.
And they believe it.

Speaker 8 They sent me back to Geneva. They said, give me a translator.
And I told the translator, look at, I can bring my military IDs. I'm from former military.
I came from war zone, from Vukovar.

Speaker 8 And they bring me a translator and they give me asylum in Switzerland temporarily. That was December 1991.
I stayed in Switzerland from 1991 to October 1994

Speaker 8 in Switzerland. October 1994, I came to the United States.

Speaker 9 How did you get to the United States?

Speaker 8 It's a very good question. And it's an excellent answer.
In 1994, I have my uncle came here in 1960. He emigrated from Albania.
He was a U.S. citizen.
So I dreamed all the time.

Speaker 8 I have my aunt and a lot of first cousins. They came that time.
So I always dreamed the United States, you know, because they used to come from the U.S. to Kosovo to visit us.

Speaker 8 And, you know, we see like always it's good, you know, to be in the United States. You know, my first cousins, they always talk nice.
Some of them, they're born in the U.S. that time.

Speaker 8 We're talking 35 years ago because I have family members, they came 50 years ago, 60 years ago. And

Speaker 8 I was dreaming to come here. And Switzerland was not giving us asylum for good, like in the United States.
They was giving us just temporary.

Speaker 8 All the former military was receiving status only temporary in Switzerland. So I asked my uncle, I said, can you send me an invitation? I want to come in the United States.

Speaker 8 He said, I would send it to you, but it's not easy to get that visa. I said, look, you send it to me, I'm going to get the visa.
And he sent me the visa and with his invitation that denied.

Speaker 8 So what I did it, now I use again my skills. I got

Speaker 8 the passport from somebody, a friend of mine, and I went in a U.S. embassy in Switzerland and got the visa myself.

Speaker 8 I got a visa with a different name. Not my name, Blurim Skoro.
Again, my skills to get the visa in the U.S. Embassy.
And I went in Zurich and I got visa. They gave me a multiply one year visa for US.

Speaker 8 I got the visa. I came in JFK.
I flew in October 1994. And

Speaker 8 my uncle was waiting for me in JFK. And it was funny because

Speaker 8 I'm using my

Speaker 8 skills not to trust still, even my uncle, but not to tell him where I'm coming with name. So he's coming in information in JFK, calling for Blurim, but my name was a different name, Femi Husseni.

Speaker 8 So totally different name now.

Speaker 8 So he's avoiding the Nairoport. I took cab from JFK.
I'm in Astoria coins to his house. And then I see

Speaker 8 my uncle's wife. She's American, not Albanian, American born.
And

Speaker 8 Patricia, she said, Welcome.

Speaker 8 She's asking me, I did let a few words, where's your uncle? I said, I don't see my uncle. Then

Speaker 8 she paged him at that time, there was no cell phones. And then my uncle responded, said,

Speaker 8 Where are you? I said, I'm in your apartment. How come you was not waiting? I said, because I took a different passport, different name, you know? And then he come and I start live in the U.S.
1994.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 9 That's quite the journey. Yes.
That's quite the journey. Had you ever met your uncle before? That was here in the U.S.

Speaker 8 Yes, I did. You did? Yes, I did, yes.

Speaker 9 And how long had he been here before you arrived?

Speaker 8 Oh, he came here in 1960. Oh, 19.

Speaker 9 When did you meet him?

Speaker 8 He used to come always from here in my country. Okay, he was.

Speaker 8 He became a U.S. citizen and he had no problem to come to visit us.

Speaker 9 And you didn't trust him?

Speaker 8 I didn't trust him because I was fearing if I get arrested, then I will put him in trouble. Gotcha.
So I was trying to save him.

Speaker 9 Gotcha.

Speaker 8 You know how it's a loss. If he knows I'm coming with a fake passport, different name, he can get trouble.

Speaker 9 Holy shit.

Speaker 9 That's quite the journey. And how old were you when you got to the U.S., Father?

Speaker 8 I was

Speaker 8 23, 24.

Speaker 9 All that

Speaker 9 in three to four years. Yes, yes.

Speaker 8 After the military, three, four years.

Speaker 8 So I started military in 19. I finished 20.

Speaker 8 And after 20, it's until 2019, 94. So basically 23, 24.

Speaker 8 At a young age with strong skills.

Speaker 9 Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll pick up with your life in the US.
No problem.

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Speaker 9 All right, Blairman, we're back from the break. You're coming to the U.S.
I know you worked a lot of odd jobs and then you got picked up and started working with the Albanian mafia.

Speaker 9 But, and we'll get to that. But so, arriving in the U.S., you're living at your uncle's house with his family.

Speaker 9 What do you start doing?

Speaker 8 After a few months, I stay,

Speaker 8 if I don't make a mistake, two or three months until

Speaker 8 I got my own apartment. My own apartment I got somewhere in February 1995.

Speaker 8 And I applied for asylum in 1995.

Speaker 8 I start in December 1994 and then we send the papers to immigration 1995. And my asylum was right away approval and granted.
In May 1995, I got granted political asylum in US,

Speaker 8 which is it was my dream come true. You know, I was always dreaming that and I become

Speaker 8 like

Speaker 8 very quick, very easy. A lot of people was struggling and suffering, not being able to become a U.S.
resident. I did in

Speaker 8 less than three, four months.

Speaker 8 And after I got granted, 95, I started working. I did a lot of different jobs in restaurant, construction.

Speaker 8 I was a doorman,

Speaker 8 I was in a cleaning company, and

Speaker 8 supporting my family. I was always a full-time worker, never no job.

Speaker 8 And somewhere in 1995,

Speaker 8 96,

Speaker 8 it started breaking a war in Yugoslavia between my country, Kosovo and Yugoslavia. Because those years, it was Slovenia and Croatia very got separated.
So it was left over

Speaker 8 Kosovo, Montenegro, and Macedonia. And it was not easy.
I'll be very honest, I was working hard. And single person with one check, paying the bills and supporting family was not easy.

Speaker 8 It was good you to make a living for yourself, but that time my family was not working in Yugoslavia. So I had over my back, maybe 10-15 family members, no job in Kosovo.

Speaker 8 So they were all dependent from me. So all my family was waiting for me.
So no pension, no income, no nothing, just bluring to send it to them. And I was young, hanging out with

Speaker 8 becoming friends with other Albanians. And one day I was 1996, I'm in a bar with all Albanians, you know, drinking party.

Speaker 8 Again, I'm a through the religion Muslim, but you know, enjoying life. Nothing shrik, no

Speaker 8 Wahhabi, no

Speaker 8 shrik Islam.

Speaker 8 And I'm telling my friends, look, I'm having a little hardship, you know, supporting my family and stuff, but I always used to live by myself.

Speaker 8 No roommate, no, nobody, just my own apartment and enjoying the life. And one day they approached me, they said, look, we can help you, you know.
And I said, help, you know, how is the help possible?

Speaker 8 They said, you know,

Speaker 8 you can send drugs to Albania.

Speaker 8 I said, drugs to Albania, no, I never did that, you know. First time, you know, having this conversation.
I was in a military service, war, and stuff like that, but not.

Speaker 8 But

Speaker 8 in a community, I was highly respected in New York so

Speaker 8 by knowing my past how I got arrested in the military because it was not easy somebody to

Speaker 8 survive that torture it's it's crazy you know so now everybody knows that torture I did and you know how I served in the Croatian war you know was one of the most dangerous war in Balkan so kind of not kind of but even in a mafia community, my name started becoming among the

Speaker 8 five, six families,

Speaker 8 Gambino crime family, Genovese, Bonano, Lucchese, all this Italian mafia, included Albanians.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I was respected. We were hanging out in one of the Gambino crime club in Bensonos, used to be a well-known neighborhood of mobsters in New York.

Speaker 8 I used to live in that neighborhood, you know, living all in the middle of the mobster, so all surrounded with mafia.

Speaker 8 And I kind of blend in good with good skills and now it's quick spread the rumors, oh, he came from the war, you know,

Speaker 8 knowing through the media he comes from the war zone, they give you highly respect, you know, they treat you more than the rest of the people, you know, because you know, surviving in that Croatian war, it's kind of big things.

Speaker 8 I start the trip, first trip, if I don't make a mistake, somewhere end of 96, first drug dealing, sending drugs to Albania.

Speaker 9 So hold on, what's going through your head when the Albanian mafia says we can help, we just need you to push drugs to Albania?

Speaker 8 Those moments, for example, I didn't much ask because I know the nature of the mafia. It's not to ask too much questions.
Because if you ask questions, then you're raising questions.

Speaker 8 Maybe you work for government. You know, because my asylum was granted right away.
So a lot of them were still illegal. Because that time in the U.S., nobody was asking you for documents.

Speaker 8 You can live here, you know, like rest of the illegal immigrants. Nobody will ask you if you have any paper, you know? So it was like

Speaker 8 normal everybody else. And since I start hanging out with them, I said not to ask questions.
All I need to follow the... whatever they tell me to follow, you know, nothing, no questions.

Speaker 8 And they said, they teach me how to do all these things. And I said, okay, we start, you know, hanging out, being more close to them, more, you know, but they had a good reputation.

Speaker 8 I tell you this, Albanians,

Speaker 8 Italian mafia was very dangerous, but Italian mafia would not play with Albanian mafia because they were taking them too serious. Albanians was killing them with no problems.

Speaker 8 You know, it was more kind of serious, Albanians than Italians. You know, they used to see them.

Speaker 8 Then when I came out to the prison, then I found out Albanians was really more strong than italians so the italian mafia was

Speaker 8 they were scared of the albanians absolutely 100

Speaker 8 absolutely even me for example when i was in that club in the

Speaker 8 look the the the time mafia how they was functioning you know when it's a club they all know each other even it's not social club but they all know each other so now they know it is guy who came from the war and it's me and i used to be known like benny my nickname was benny everybody used to know me Benny so now oh Benny came from the war so when I work in that club they always respect me so but I never worked with ital and mafia I never had no any

Speaker 8 we I had a friends you know we communicated thank god but never any business like being a uh in italian mob

Speaker 8 so it was friendly friendly but never been in in in mob never crossed the business line no never just with albanian did you know these guys were in the mob before they approached you?

Speaker 8 No, I never knew it until I started, I think, I believe, second or third trip. Then I start becoming friendly, seeing them gambling,

Speaker 8 using drugs, drinking, partying, all these things, and controlling gambling. You know, they used to control a lot of gambling stuff in New York City.

Speaker 8 Albanians, they used to control a lot of the Italian mobs. You know, it's not like Albanians was not like a big group, but small group, very strong, very loyal to each other.

Speaker 9 Interesting. Interesting.

Speaker 9 What else was the mafia into in New York? Gambling?

Speaker 8 Gambling, drugs was always drugs in them,

Speaker 8 prostitution always with them,

Speaker 8 racketarian, extortion, all this. Whatever it's in.

Speaker 8 All bad shit. All illegal things that used to be under the control of mafia.

Speaker 9 And so let's talk about how you got into drug running. What kind of drugs was it?

Speaker 8 It was cocaine, sending cocaine from the United States. First, I started in Albania for a few trips, and then from Albania, I started doing to Italy.

Speaker 8 Then I start dealing with the mobsters of Albania, Mobsters in Italy.

Speaker 9 Okay, so you went. So let me just get this straight.
So they sent you to Albania.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I flew from JFK to Italy,

Speaker 8 used to change flight in Switzerland or Germany. Always it was a transit, Germany, Frankfurt or Italy.
And then from Italy to Albania.

Speaker 8 But mostly of the time, Germany and Albania or Switzerland and Albania.

Speaker 9 So did you live there or would you come back to New York?

Speaker 8 I would come always back to New York. I just send the drugs, bring the money.
Send the drugs, bring the money. So we used to take two pieces, one piece, one keys of cocaine, send it, or two.

Speaker 8 Sometimes we used to be two, three of us, sent six, seven kilos and come back with money.

Speaker 9 Did you have any fear about going back?

Speaker 8 Back fear back to go where? Albania. No, I didn't have no fear.

Speaker 9 None?

Speaker 8 No.

Speaker 9 How would you smuggle the drugs?

Speaker 8 In the body.

Speaker 8 We used to sew a little bit those like swimming suit tight and make a piece in a body. That time was, it's a very, I can explain a little bit.

Speaker 8 Checks in airport used to be very different, very easy. You couldn't smuggle, you couldn't walk like I used to have a nice three-piece suit,

Speaker 8 nice clothes and drops inside and tie it up good inner body and you pass it through. Before you do the trip, same clothes we wear and we go to test one day before if it's going to alarm detector.

Speaker 8 If it goes those closed alarm detector, then you change it, you You do something closed, no belt, so they don't ring the alarm. So the next day, I used to

Speaker 8 smuggle the drugs, take the drugs from New York, send it to Albania or Italy, and then Italy

Speaker 8 sell it in the street. But I never dealt in a street live, meaning selling in the streets.
Always I used to deal with big guys like

Speaker 8 bosses.

Speaker 9 Street transport.

Speaker 8 Yeah, just you know, not the smuggling and selling in the street. Never dealt in a street cell.

Speaker 9 So, how would they, how would the cocaine be packaged?

Speaker 8 The way it comes from Colombia.

Speaker 9 It would be in a piece.

Speaker 8 Yeah, in a piece break, yes. Always break.

Speaker 9 And you wouldn't break it up.

Speaker 8 No, never break. Because if you break, then they don't want to buy it.
So always hard breaks. I used to take, it was time, three killers in the body.
So one in the front and two sides.

Speaker 8 A three-piece suit, very nice suit,

Speaker 8 tie,

Speaker 8 like businessman with a suitcase with you pass it no problem wow how many times did you do this

Speaker 8 I did easy I can say

Speaker 8 minimum ten times eight to ten times

Speaker 8 yes

Speaker 8 and what would the process be like when you got to Albania oh hanging out over there three four days giving to the people we used to always have waiting people with money just you stay three days to one week not to be suspicious when you come back in US so not to raise suspicious how you come right away next day.

Speaker 8 So you stay, hang out, enjoy Albania. Albania costs one week and come back, bring the money, no problem.

Speaker 9 How much do you get smuggling a key of cocaine into Albania?

Speaker 8 It was

Speaker 8 kilo at that time, it was

Speaker 8 $55,000 a kilo.

Speaker 9 $55,000 a kilo. So you're smuggling about three kilos of trip?

Speaker 8 Yes, $150,000. It was a time, one shot, I bring it the highest amount of money, $560,000 cash.
Holy shit.

Speaker 9 And that's all for you to keep?

Speaker 8 With a group. With the group? Yeah, with a group.
Yeah. Sharon.
We was always partners in Sharon.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 that was your money. You didn't need to transport the money and give it to the Albanian mob back in New York.
That was $25,000.

Speaker 8 There was three, four of us all the time. Sharon.

Speaker 9 How much would you be able to keep?

Speaker 8 It was...

Speaker 8 Time $80,000, $90,000 per

Speaker 8 $100. Oh, per kilo was maybe per kilo, I can say

Speaker 8 $8,000 to $9,000.

Speaker 9 So you would get paid roughly a little under $10,000 per kilo. Yes, yes.

Speaker 9 It's a lot bigger than working at a cleaner's.

Speaker 8 Absolutely.

Speaker 9 Big different.

Speaker 8 It's especially like

Speaker 8 this is a trick. You know, you think it's a big money, sweet money, but that's the worst thing.

Speaker 8 Today,

Speaker 8 I would freely say

Speaker 8 I would never even dream, even advise anybody to do any work like that because that's short time.

Speaker 9 What do you think would have happened if you would have said, no, I don't want to smuggle drugs?

Speaker 8 In the beginning, nothing. Nothing.
Nothing, absolutely. I need the money.
So they didn't care. They have a man.

Speaker 8 It's not that everybody was

Speaker 8 brave the way I used to

Speaker 8 with the military experience but there still was people to do and still continue doing they don't do it the way they did it they change all those things but they're still doing drugs would never stop it's a business and so what would the meetup look like how would you know who you're meeting over there in Europe yes always through the friends you know always to the names always to the mediator

Speaker 8 So I go, for example, to one of the family members from here in Albania, not to my family, to the the

Speaker 8 members of the group. And then they waited for me in the airport.
They're taking me home. I stay in the apartments in Albania.

Speaker 8 And next day, they're coming to take the drugs, giving the money, always drugs, money, exchanging, never long.

Speaker 8 So always paid in a spot, in a hand. Giving the drugs, taking the money.

Speaker 9 Did your family know you were doing this? No.

Speaker 8 Your uncle? No. Nobody.

Speaker 9 You don't think they picked up?

Speaker 8 I never showed to them money. My family knew over there.
It was easy to believe because I was telling them I'm doing two jobs.

Speaker 8 So I was never telling my uncle how much I'm sending over there because then he will know what I'm doing.

Speaker 8 So I try to keep very strict because I learned one thing. In the crimes, if a person knows, he can be charged with the crime.
So I learned that part to keep the secrets.

Speaker 8 But after like few years, my uncle found out I did it. And then we're gonna come to the point.

Speaker 8 It's a funny part how my wife caught me doing the drug dealing, found out it's very I didn't even believe.

Speaker 9 Let's go.

Speaker 8 I'm in a phone using different language,

Speaker 8 Serbian, talking to somebody in a Serbian, because my wife is born and raised in US.

Speaker 8 Then

Speaker 8 I was never sure she she understands Serbian. I never thought she was five or six years old.
They left US to live in the

Speaker 8 valley called Prussia, which is in the Serbian side. Her parents took her for a couple of years to live there when she was young.
And she went in Serbian school.

Speaker 8 I never thought my wife she was not Serbian. So I'm talking in the phone home, having a nice conversation.
I got married.

Speaker 8 I hung up the phone.

Speaker 8 My wife, she thinks I'm working in a restaurant. And I took her to work with me.

Speaker 8 And then she came out. She said, you're a drug dealer.

Speaker 8 I said, how do you know?

Speaker 9 That's what she said. How do you know?

Speaker 8 Yeah. I said, baby, she's telling me, you just had a conversation about drugs.
You're talking in Serbian. And then she told me whatever I said.
I said, geez, what happened with me now?

Speaker 8 That's how I called up.

Speaker 8 My wife to know.

Speaker 9 What was the conversation?

Speaker 8 I was

Speaker 8 we was making meeting how we're gonna take the drugs, but I was home. So, for my wife not to know, I told them, look,

Speaker 8 we're gonna talk in this language because my wife, she doesn't know. She's American-born, you know.
I never thought American can learn Slavic, you know. It was like

Speaker 8 common sense.

Speaker 9 How did she respond to that?

Speaker 8 Oh, she didn't like that.

Speaker 8 She didn't like that, she freaked out. If my family knows I married a drug dealer,

Speaker 8 it will be ate me.

Speaker 8 her family it's it's interesting because before i got married we met each other we dated we met each other it's a it's a

Speaker 8 in a document it's like some part is like a love story in uh i met her in uh 1996 97 i'm sorry in uh albanian party and that time i was you know my name was the best in Albanian community.

Speaker 8 I was, everybody used to know it's Albanian mob, Albanian gangster,

Speaker 8 very good reputation, driving Mercedes

Speaker 8 few years in the United States. You know, not

Speaker 8 a lot of immigrants can do that, bulletproof car, you know, all these things.

Speaker 8 I start dating her for a few months, and I'm picking the phone, calling her parents, you know, to get engaged. And the first thing her father asked me, what do you do for a living?

Speaker 8 I said, I work in a restaurant. How long have you been here? I said, I've been here three, four years.
He said, I cannot give you my daughter.

Speaker 8 You know, you just want to marry her because you want to become U.S. citizen.
But I was very granted asylum. You know, I didn't need to get married with my wife to become U.S.
citizen.

Speaker 8 I said, look, sir, I don't need to get married. I have my papers.
I'm traveling to my country. I don't have no problem with the papers.
No, he said. And he hang up the phone.

Speaker 8 I said, okay, if you hang up the phone, then

Speaker 8 we start.

Speaker 8 We

Speaker 8 engaged. And she took a vacation with the parents.
We planned everything.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 in June 96, 7,

Speaker 8 they're going back to Kosovo and they are in vacation. And after a couple of weeks, I'm going in vacation too.
But I decide with my wife to get married.

Speaker 8 And I told her in my family, I'm going to come in Kosovo and make a wedding party and get married. And I'm going.
The parents in Kosovo, they don't want to give it to her,

Speaker 8 to get married. They told her, no.
And I said, look,

Speaker 8 are you going to get married? She tells her parents in front of me, you know what, I love my husband,

Speaker 8 my boyfriend, we were engaged, and I'm going to go with him.

Speaker 8 She had

Speaker 8 choice. I was 20 years old, 19,

Speaker 8 between 19 and 20. So she left the family and came and got married with me in Kosovo.
And then we come in US

Speaker 8 in

Speaker 8 97.

Speaker 8 98, my first daughter was born, April 98, and the second daughter was born in September

Speaker 8 1999.

Speaker 8 But those years, then, I started drug dealing, working always. I always used to have a job, so to be good to the government side, paying taxes and everything, but doing drug dealing.

Speaker 9 And your wife,

Speaker 9 she found out before you got married or after.

Speaker 8 She found out after we got married.

Speaker 9 And you kept doing it?

Speaker 8 I kept doing that, yes. Then money was sweet.

Speaker 9 Money was sweet. sweet.

Speaker 8 And I

Speaker 9 did she come to terms with it?

Speaker 8 Then I used to take her a couple of times,

Speaker 8 few times I used to take her with me. When I used to go, then I start changing, working myself,

Speaker 8 working with Italy only, not no more with Albania. Now I build a

Speaker 8 relation friendship with Italians and I used to work myself in Italy.

Speaker 8 Then I used to take her with me just to look good in air reports, like a couple traveling, just you know, like the customs not to be

Speaker 8 suspicious in what we're doing. So I used to take her and just fly to from JFK to Italy.
Always using transit. Even going to Italy, I used to always use Germany.

Speaker 9 Interesting. So

Speaker 9 what did the Albanian mafia think when you started working for the Italian?

Speaker 8 They never thought I was working for Italian. I was working for myself, but I have a good relation or friendship with mobsters.
So nothing like I'm under them.

Speaker 8 I'm also in my own, but not under mafia.

Speaker 9 So there was no...

Speaker 8 No, not suspicious, anything. I never, I always keep my loyalty to Albanian mobsters.

Speaker 9 How did the conversation serve with the Italians?

Speaker 8 I learned language.

Speaker 8 The conversation started reputation building up. I built my name from Bessoners, Brooklyn, New York.
So when you build in New York, you're hanging out with mobsters,

Speaker 8 you know, always become friends, drinking together every night in a bars, and that's how

Speaker 8 build a friendship with them.

Speaker 9 How do they approach you?

Speaker 8 How they see how they're respecting

Speaker 8 my people, how they was respecting me. They used to know I came from the military.
They used to know I came from the war zone. We used to have a conversation.

Speaker 8 One wee in a club, we always talk, you know, I was there, you know, we did this, we did that, you know, then now you become strong, you know, because

Speaker 8 I barely saw anybody being in the past like me. You know, I was,

Speaker 8 I didn't see anybody coming from the war like the way I came. So it was like only me in the group beat.
Of course, there was guys in a street life way, they did crazy things,

Speaker 8 beating,

Speaker 8 breaking legs, breaking arms. There was a guys like that.
But to them was still, they can do that, but if a Benny get

Speaker 8 crazy, he can shoot us. So Benny is respected.
It's among ourselves. We can play and joke, but still, we gotta respect him for his past.

Speaker 9 So you saw him breaking people's legs.

Speaker 8 It's not eyewitnesses, but I knew it when they came from the situation.

Speaker 8 I knew it. They broke somebody's legs.
Or, you know, I heard they shot somebody in a trunk. They told me, we shot somebody and left him in a car, in a trunk.

Speaker 9 They would just tell you this.

Speaker 8 Yeah, there's no problem. And I know who was the person who got shot.

Speaker 9 Give me one example.

Speaker 8 It's

Speaker 8 one of it's Albanian.

Speaker 8 It's considered

Speaker 8 like a traitor to them.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I can

Speaker 8 think his name because it's a little long time.

Speaker 8 And they told me we shot so-and-so, and then I found found out he got shot, and they left him in his car in a trunk.

Speaker 8 And then I know people got beat up, breaking legs, breaking jars, and stabbing knife and stuff like that.

Speaker 8 I used to know,

Speaker 8 I went far.

Speaker 8 I used to know a son-in-law of the Jangari, Carmai. We were in the same room in the prison.
I met John Jr.

Speaker 8 from Gambino crime family. I met

Speaker 8 boss of Colombo family. I met

Speaker 8 Genovese boss with one of them, Anthony Spiro, who passed away in prison. He was my cell partner.

Speaker 8 He was head of the Genovese. Anthony Spiro was life sentenced.
He was my cell partner. So I spent time with

Speaker 8 co-founder of the Bloods in New York, Pistol Pete. And his son is in Florence, Colorado.
I was very close with him. He was my cell partner three years.
We went alone. Excellent.

Speaker 9 Wow. Did you know who these guys were at the time?

Speaker 8 Not at the time.

Speaker 9 No? No.

Speaker 8 In the beginning, some of the mobsters I used to know, like from the Gambino, for example, one of the two brothers, Saul and Tommy, I knew there was a wise guy. There was, you know,

Speaker 8 very strong in a rank in a Gambino crime family.

Speaker 9 How did you eventually get picked up?

Speaker 8 It's again, it's my past.

Speaker 8 In prison. In a prison,

Speaker 8 I tell you, this is the best part of the story of the life.

Speaker 8 That trip, Sean,

Speaker 8 I did not do that trip. I was set up.

Speaker 8 I was not involved in that trip. When I get arrested,

Speaker 8 it's a mistake of the US government. When I say mistake of US government, how informers was using government.
So informer, one of the informers, there was was two of them,

Speaker 8 he came out from the prison.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 few,

Speaker 8 what he did, I started lending him money. We used to do lawn shark in a little bit.

Speaker 8 And he sent somebody in Pakistan for drugs.

Speaker 8 He's dead today, he's deceased in a prison. They said he got killed or something, but it's not my problem.
I don't care.

Speaker 8 He got what he deserved. And

Speaker 8 this guy who set me up,

Speaker 8 he said one day we coming from the Bronx to Queens. He said, we used to call each other son.
He said, be careful, maybe the government one day arrests you. They can tell you I'm informer, but I'm not.

Speaker 8 Sean, when you don't have no,

Speaker 8 when you're not in a system, federal prison, look, you have a very strong good experience. I see you part of the life story.

Speaker 8 You've been in SEALs, you've been in an intelligence agency, and it's excellent experience you have.

Speaker 8 but it's a different my experience.

Speaker 8 You can know the laws a little bit. I don't know the laws.
Only time you learn the laws today, speaking with you, I'm like a paralegal. I know the law very well.

Speaker 8 I can tell you about the US laws, you will never believe it.

Speaker 8 So, I'm coming informer telling me, Hey, be careful if they arrest you,

Speaker 8 they can tell you, you know, I'm working for the FBI.

Speaker 8 I don't believe. One of my first cousins told me one day, look,

Speaker 8 cousin, don't trust Nick because Nick is an FBI informer. I said, come on, Nick cannot be informer because he knows me.
I come from the war. I will shoot him.
You know, he's fearing me.

Speaker 8 But I learned all these two years when I was friend with that informer, when he talked to his family, he always mentioned my name because his phone was tapped. So if something happened, he got killed.

Speaker 8 So they know his family who he was with.

Speaker 8 So every time he's with me, he talked to his wife or somebody of family and tell them, oh, I'm with Benny, Benny, Benny, Benny, Benny. And then one day he got me paranoia.

Speaker 8 And I told him, son, how come you always mention my name in a phone? Oh, no, no, just because I love you. Okay.

Speaker 8 One day we play in pool. And somebody called him from Greek.
He was deported. He was arrested and deported.
He stay

Speaker 8 in a federal prison. But this guy went in a bathroom.
So the phone ringing, ringing, and

Speaker 8 Cleonthi, the guy who got killed was Vito, Albanian guy, in a trunk. From the past story we were talking, he came in my

Speaker 8 head. His name is Vito, Albanian name.
So he got killed from one of the Albanian mobsters. He was shot in the head in a trunk.
So now, Cleonth, it's the guy, Albanian, who called him from Greece.

Speaker 8 This guy is in a bathroom, the informer, but he's my friend, my ex-friend. And I answered the phone, his phone.

Speaker 8 And this guy cursing me, saying, Hey, you, mother F, why are you not answering the phone? You effing snitch, this, that.

Speaker 8 I said, yo, who are you talking to? You know, I'm not Nick, I'm Benny. Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 Where is Nick? He's not answering my phone. I said, he's in the bathroom.
He said, you know, he's an informer. I said, really?

Speaker 9 She had a lot of signs as this guy was informed.

Speaker 8 But Sean was too late for me. This is it coming in 1991.
It's very, I'm a

Speaker 8 government is very investigating me. They're watching me.
So I'm very followed from the U.S. government, from the FBI and DA.
So it was no more,

Speaker 8 only choice was me to stop, but there still was building case against me. So what he did,

Speaker 8 he asked me to do a favor to send him $21,000 in Pakistan. I did wire wire from the Western Union.
I make that mistake in my name. But I was young, and it's not like

Speaker 8 I thought I used always myself to say, hey, he's going to be scared to snitch me because he knows my past.

Speaker 8 But he didn't. He snitched me.
And

Speaker 8 I don't want to use that. It was informal.
You know, we're trying to be more polite in the language so the viewers not to think, no, I'm going rough in the people.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I sent $21,000 to somebody who was in Pakistan and he was connected to one of the most wanted. You have a picture with Bin Laden.
So he was supporter of Bin Laden.

Speaker 8 I saw pictures with him and Bin Laden after I went to Pakistan. So now I wired $21,000 and this guy comes back in somewhere November 1999.
and he gets arrested in New York. But he doesn't tell nobody.

Speaker 8 He gets arrested six or seven Albanian group of the mafia

Speaker 8 everybody goes in jail only this one get

Speaker 8 bail

Speaker 8 so

Speaker 8 now everybody rumors how come this guy get bailed

Speaker 8 long story short he doesn't call me he doesn't

Speaker 8 come to see me he owns me twenty one thousand dollars so informer Nick

Speaker 8 He tells me you have to go yourself in Pakistan me to pay you the money. But he was setting me up.

Speaker 8 up now it's not I'm not I'm 100% clean I'm according to the US laws and I'm witnessing today in this interview I was 100% clean I was never dealing with heroin never dealing with Afghanistan or Pakistan all I was dealing with cocaine with Italy never with terrorists so I was always used to think if I give them money so that money is going to support terrorists so I was keeping myself because US was to me my dream place

Speaker 8 so regardless what I do with Italy and gangs and mafia,

Speaker 8 long as I keep myself clean with terror group.

Speaker 8 So I don't mind dealing with mafia. I mind dealing with terror group.
So this guy sent me to Pakistan. I'm taking the first trip in

Speaker 8 February of 2000 in Pakistan. That's my first trip in my life in Pakistan.
I'm going over there,

Speaker 8 not knowing nothing, country never visited in my life, landing over there, I took my wife with me.

Speaker 8 Watches strictly over there, bad, but I never took my wife when I was meeting.

Speaker 8 And now, this informer has a good, strong relation, friendship with one of the Pakistani wanted, he's still wanted today, he's in the still ABI wanted list.

Speaker 8 And I'm going, his name, I can say it, it's not, I don't mind to say it his name. His real name is Mir Kazim Shah.
He lives in a tribal area in Peshar, Mardan.

Speaker 8 It's a city of Peshar near the Afghanistan border. So he's still wanted.
From early 90s, he's still in the FBI.

Speaker 8 He's indicted twice in

Speaker 8 Eastern District Court. First trip, landing in Karachi, Pakistan.
From Karachi, Pakistan, I'm going to Islamabad, Pakistan. In Islamabad, I'm waiting for this guy.

Speaker 8 But this guy, he knew what he's wanted.

Speaker 8 He was very smart.

Speaker 8 and he doesn't come in my time

Speaker 8 he called in hotel and hotel tell me you have phone call from guest

Speaker 8 and he said it's you I said yeah it's me I'm gonna come and see I waited one week ten days he doesn't want to come and see me and I'm calling the informer I said that time he was my friend I said he said this is how it works you gotta wait only in his time then one time he show up night time he doesn't want to get caught up in the cameras and stuff He walks in.

Speaker 8 He's known Amir,

Speaker 8 aka Amir, but his real name, Amir Kazim Shah. He said, hi, how are you? Good English speaking.
You know, at that time, he was easy.

Speaker 8 I was maybe 26,

Speaker 8 27. He was for sure 40, 45.

Speaker 8 Said, look, you want to do this? I said, yeah, I bring some money. I give him, if I don't make a mistake, another $20,000 cash to him.
So for the trip.

Speaker 8 So he prepared in five kilos of heroin to bring it back.

Speaker 8 So I took, after one week, five kilos of heroin.

Speaker 8 How he did it, Sean, it's a good part.

Speaker 8 When we were sitting, I started hanging out a few times. I went to visit him.

Speaker 8 He took me to Afghanistan to see how they grow in the opinion. They have maybe...
At least five, six thousand security. Those Afghanis with AKs and stuff like that.
But I was clean shape.

Speaker 8 it's different than working for cia so i was like clean western guy no beard no nothing so it's a little big different than when i work for the cia

Speaker 8 he took me over there he said look we're gonna plan this trip but i want to tell you one thing i know i'm wanted in the u.s government he told me straight up the first time when i went in his house he told me i'm wanted from the u.m if i want to be bad guy i can send a bomb the way I'm going to send you drugs.

Speaker 8 And you can leave it in JFK and blow the JFK. That's what he told me.
In the first trip in 2000, we're talking when there was not too much

Speaker 8 al-Qaeda scan. You know the Al-Qaeda because you have experience, but not the rest of the world, you know.
So at age 27, I'm meeting first time with somebody who hates the

Speaker 8 US. And then I see picture with not just him, with Bin Laden in the crew, black and white picture, and he's in one of the corner, Bin Laden in the middle.
He was a former Mujahideen.

Speaker 8 He was shot in the Afghan war. So he fought

Speaker 8 with Mujahideen's Russian war. So it's a former Mujahideen against Soviets.
So it's not young. And we talk in nice conversation.
He's taking me to Afghanistan, coming back, and I stay, I think,

Speaker 8 around three weeks.

Speaker 9 Where did you go to Afghanistan? Do you know?

Speaker 8 Near the tribal area. We passed through the Mardan, we went to from Belochistan side, and we went.
I went as far as

Speaker 8 Kandahar. We went to Kandahar.
I was in Kandahar. I was

Speaker 8 one time I think we visited for a few hours Mazar Sharif.

Speaker 8 So we spent those tribal areas where it's always controlled from Taliban. That time was complete control from Taliban.
It's not

Speaker 8 Taliban after collapse. So time when I was there was control of the Taliban.
And

Speaker 8 nice, I came and bring the drugs. It was excellent.

Speaker 9 So what was the point of you going to Afghanistan?

Speaker 8 He just wanted to show you the fields and how he's strong.

Speaker 8 He wants to bring me in. He wants me to

Speaker 8 kind of recruit me in, in their view.

Speaker 8 My interest was just to take that drugs and bring it and get my money. My interest was nothing

Speaker 8 be al-Qaeda,

Speaker 8 not supporting terrorists. My interest was to bring the drugs so I can get my money and finish this.
So I bring the drugs

Speaker 8 in a, they bring the drugs, they pass the customs in Pakistan. They bring it in a bathroom after you do that all the checkpoints.
Because in Pakistan, they patch you down.

Speaker 8 When you enter the airport, they patch you down. But the police of Pakistani police, this guy has all connection, police brings the drugs in a bathroom.

Speaker 8 So one day before, I meet the police outside and I know that police are gonna bring the drugs. So he bring West

Speaker 8 with

Speaker 8 wearing himself. So now when you pass the customs, Pakistani customs, they open the luggage and they put the tech, that luggage is searched.
So they don't have to go through.

Speaker 8 And they patch you down, you go to the alarm detector and everything. And you clean, you pass the security.
Before you board, it's a bathrooms.

Speaker 8 So he goes, the police goes first, he comes and watches me, and I follow him.

Speaker 8 So he goes in one bathroom, he takes his west in the bathroom, he comes out, I enter the bathroom, I wear the west in the bathroom. So I'm a clear in the customs.

Speaker 8 Now, five kilos of heroin, west, it's in my body. So now I'm just waiting to board.
When you board an airplane, they check the ticket.

Speaker 8 It was screened

Speaker 8 back, the carry-on, and they know they're not they don't have to touch it because it was went to checkpoint but drugs is in my body so i'm coming now from uh karachi to shennon airland and then from shennon to jfk when i come to jfk

Speaker 8 i passed one time but first trip i came from

Speaker 8 karachi to canada toronto

Speaker 8 I never came back. What I did,

Speaker 8 Sean,

Speaker 8 we planned the trip for me to avoid the suspicious

Speaker 8 because when you come in customs here, they ask you where you're coming from.

Speaker 8 And if you tell them you're coming from Pakistan, they will right away suspicious. But when you tell them you're coming from Canada, it's no problem, you know.

Speaker 8 But in Canada, when I come, look, Sean, it's I want to just

Speaker 8 to understand something very clear.

Speaker 8 You plan this kind of

Speaker 8 life

Speaker 8 in a intelligent way, you to avoid detection.

Speaker 8 We planned this before how

Speaker 8 the government function, what can avoid tracing you. So when you come in from Pakistan to Canada and in Canadian customs, I said I couldn't get a straight flight for a JFK.

Speaker 8 I have one day to stay in Canada. So you just, you know,

Speaker 8 one word, you're lying to them, protecting yourself, because Canadians, they think, okay, you're going to go back to New York tomorrow, so they don't need to ask you if you're bringing anything.

Speaker 8 You know, you clean just transit one day. You understand?

Speaker 8 So then, when you come in in Toronto, the next day, when the customs in J, you come straight because in that time in Canada, you pass the customs only Canada.

Speaker 8 When you come in La Guardia, you go straight in the street. They don't search you.
They don't ask no questions. You pass in the customs in

Speaker 8 Canada. So I'm clear I bring the drugs five kilo.
That's the first trip. We want to make.

Speaker 9 How many passports did you have?

Speaker 8 All my life, I did maybe 12 or 13.

Speaker 9 12 or 13 passports. Yes.
Where would you get the passports?

Speaker 8 It's very easy, everywhere.

Speaker 8 Like four or five times, I had the passports from CIA, four times list.

Speaker 9 Not those ones?

Speaker 8 Yes, just mine. Mine, it's maybe at least six, seven times.
Buying from the people.

Speaker 9 They would just make them for you.

Speaker 8 No problem. Any passports, you name it, I couldn't get it.

Speaker 9 You would fly to Canada from Pakistan on a different passport than you would.

Speaker 8 And come with my passport, original travel document, U.S. travel document.
I used to use my name so I can be clear. I will not show the passport.

Speaker 8 I had a visa for Pakistan because, you know, to go in Pakistan, you have to have a visa, regardless if you're a citizen or anybody.

Speaker 8 Everybody who would travel to Pakistan, you have to have a Pakistani visa. You have the visas in passport.
So I used to use two different passports all the time.

Speaker 9 So would you go from the U.S. to Canada to Pakistan? Yes.

Speaker 9 Okay, so it just looked like you were in Canada, and then you would keep that passport separate, so it just looked like you were in and out of it. Using two different passports.

Speaker 8 Okay,

Speaker 8 okay.

Speaker 9 And so how did you get, how did you get arrested? How did they catch you?

Speaker 8 I'm coming in May 2000, coming getting arrested. When I went in May 2000, I'm going to make a short this because we have a lot of story.
And

Speaker 8 he's setting me up. Now it's a clear, I'm not dealing.
I'm going second trip because those first drugs I bring, he said it's no good. Informer telling me.

Speaker 8 But informer saying to the FBI and DEA, I'm dealing with Ben, different Ben, not with Nick. All the drugs he's telling the government, I'm not dealing with informer.

Speaker 8 I'm dealing with totally different source. But he's a double agent.
He's profiting himself. He's using DEA and FBI.
He's giving information.

Speaker 8 But he never telling the DEA and FBI, he's dealing with drugs. I'm dealing with somebody.
So he's only informer.

Speaker 8 So he's profiting from himself in a drug dealing, and he's profiting from the government paycheck.

Speaker 8 It's a double agent.

Speaker 8 So then

Speaker 8 he's telling me, we have to go you have to go back, bring another five killings. I said, come on, man.
I go.

Speaker 8 I had a bad accident over there in Pakistan with horse. I'm not bringing drugs.
Two different people bringing drugs from Pakistan to

Speaker 8 Germany. In Germany, somebody else supposed to come.
What informer does, him and his wife

Speaker 8 sets up my sister-in-law and my wife. So my sister-in-law to come and bring the drugs because his wife used to know my sister-in-law.
But I'm with those two different carriers in Pakistan.

Speaker 8 So we bring in the drugs. Then in Germany, I see

Speaker 8 my sister-in-law and my wife was in Germany. And I got mad.
But there was a last-minute change plan. So he planned,

Speaker 8 so my sister-in-law get arrested, and I take the blame. So now we come in from Germany to JFK,

Speaker 8 they're letting me go through. Informal, give information about my sister-in-law.

Speaker 8 So now I pass the customs, then I see my sister-in-law get stopped, and my wife. and that time I was on my door with them

Speaker 8 baby this is one of the worst mistakes in my life I never forgive myself

Speaker 8 this is the worst part

Speaker 8 and then I walked in

Speaker 8 I walked in

Speaker 8 and I said to the customs I'm with them

Speaker 8 I said to myself I have no choice.

Speaker 8 But the agents, the custom agents played me very dirty in my life.

Speaker 8 Very unfair. In the United States, you have to have a Miranda rights.

Speaker 8 The agent, custom agent,

Speaker 8 I remember his name to the day I died, Jamal,

Speaker 8 he left the door cracked a little bit. And my baby, my daughter, a year and a half, was walking around.
And he's in the office with me, me and him. He said, sir,

Speaker 8 you have two choices. Are you to take this blame or us to take your daughter to put in a shelter to somebody else.

Speaker 8 And I didn't know my rights.

Speaker 8 And I said to myself, you know what? It was a

Speaker 8 very heart-feeling moment.

Speaker 8 I said, okay,

Speaker 8 let my daughter go home. I take full responsibility.

Speaker 8 I take all the blame. I didn't do that trip.

Speaker 8 I said, I'm a man, I will take the blame.

Speaker 8 And then let my daughter go home

Speaker 8 and let my wife and my sister-in-law. I took that.

Speaker 8 But I was happy if I was given right, no. But I was happy I saw my child going home because I make a mistake.
Every father will do that for the child.

Speaker 8 And I get arrested, put it in a prison.

Speaker 8 Sending me to Metropolitan Detention Center.

Speaker 8 This is not first time in a prison, but

Speaker 8 regretting my mistakes. How far can let that?

Speaker 8 You know, I was meant to die, I was meant to be killed, I was meant to be shot, but you know, not to take a blame for your child.

Speaker 8 Every normal human being would do that.

Speaker 8 And this is the part when I get arrested and I say to myself, you know what?

Speaker 8 It's okay. I'm going to pay this.

Speaker 8 I did that.

Speaker 8 But we

Speaker 8 were a year and a half.

Speaker 8 Only a year and a half. She just was walking.
The oldest one.

Speaker 8 Before, in the drug dealing time,

Speaker 8 I was involved with KLA. We missed one of the good part.

Speaker 8 In 98, 99, I went from here to fight to help my people in Kosovo war. One U.S.
bombing was in 78 days Yugoslavia. I was inside

Speaker 8 fighting for my people. I was also another war join, Kosovo Liberation Army.
I volunteered from the US, from New York City. I didn't stay long, four months until the war finished.

Speaker 8 And then when I came from the war, I was very, like,

Speaker 8 extremely good reputation. Like,

Speaker 8 they used to look look me like I'm a killer. They used to look me like I'm

Speaker 8 two different wars men. You know, one in Croatian, one in Kosovo Liberation.

Speaker 8 I'm very brave human. So now getting arrested and not taking a blame,

Speaker 8 you know, it's

Speaker 8 I get charged with conspiracy to import one kilogram. Are you a killer the second time?

Speaker 8 I was warrior.

Speaker 8 What did you do?

Speaker 8 In a war.

Speaker 8 Fighting against Serbs. It's bottom of my heart.

Speaker 8 Not even thinking second thought. If I have to kill, I will kill.

Speaker 9 Did you kill?

Speaker 8 It was shoot. I was shot in.

Speaker 8 You never go to see victims.

Speaker 8 You always distance.

Speaker 8 But you always shoot it.

Speaker 8 It's a war. So

Speaker 8 if

Speaker 8 I have the gun with me, I'm in a war zone. I'm defending my country, defending my people proudly.
Proudly. If I have to do with two countries, I will fight even today.

Speaker 8 I will have no problem to fight for the US. I have no problem to fight for my country.
If they call me today, I'm volunteering anywhere, any zone. I have no problem.

Speaker 8 I get arrested. I've been put now in a prison among the middle of terrorists, all kind of groups.
You name it. Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaeda,

Speaker 8 Al-Aqsha Taiba.

Speaker 8 I want to share one of the pictures because it's very good pictures with I have one of the pictures in a prison, maybe

Speaker 8 one, two, four or five different members of

Speaker 8 terror groups with me in prison. I become very quick mu'azin in a prison.

Speaker 9 You become what? Mu'azin.

Speaker 8 The leader of Muslims, calling for prayer.

Speaker 8 And become prisons are run from the Muslims. Every federal prison runs from the Muslims.
So I become a strong

Speaker 8 leader in the Muslim community.

Speaker 8 I start dealing with the FBI and DEA,

Speaker 8 cooperating, taking my blame.

Speaker 8 When I took my blame, I was promised to be released in a short period of time.

Speaker 8 I got

Speaker 8 two years hold pre-trial prison. So in 9-11,

Speaker 8 I got caught up being in a cell

Speaker 8 with one of them of four or five guys that bring the bombing from

Speaker 8 Canada to LA, 2,000 million bombing. One of the terrorists was my cell partner.
I can mention the name, it's not a problem, it's

Speaker 8 public information, it's, you know, Mokhtar Haururi, Algerian born with

Speaker 8 Canadian and Algerian passport, Rassam and Meskini. There were three or four of them, the smuggling bomb from Canada to Los Angeles that time in 2000.
So, one of them was my cell partner

Speaker 8 and dealing with FBI and DA, but you know, now 9-11 become.

Speaker 8 So, September 11, I'm in a cell with one of the terrorists, but he was not convicted yet. He was only arrested.
So, it's a 2000 and 2001.

Speaker 8 So he got arrested in Los Angeles bombing and bringing a prison. So he became a cell partner with me.

Speaker 8 First flight hit the Twin Tower.

Speaker 8 I'm in the seventh floor. My room, cell, it's tower the

Speaker 8 Freedom Tower. You can see both buildings, Hudson River, Manhattan, and Brooklyn.
I'm in Brooklyn jail.

Speaker 8 So this now, the first flight hit, it's a morning,

Speaker 8 8.45, if I don't make a a mistake, Tuesday.

Speaker 8 And this guy called me

Speaker 8 in a prison I used to be known Amir.

Speaker 8 Same the way it's nickname of the wanted guy, Mir Kazim Shah Amir. I choose that name because Amir, it's kind of in Arabic, it's a leader.
So, Amir al-Mumineen.

Speaker 8 So, leader of believers. So, now I'm in a prison known.
Prison name, Amir. He jumps on the

Speaker 8 bugging band and happy.

Speaker 8 God is a great Allah.

Speaker 8 Allah,

Speaker 8 this is from my leader. He's happy now.
And I'm looking, I'm a former KLA member. I'm a very patriotic to the United States.

Speaker 8 I was 78 days bombing U.S. Yugoslavia.
Now I'm thinking if I kill this guy in a prison or not. It's my mixed feeling.
How can be this human happy when I'm diehard?

Speaker 8 I'm a Muslim, but I'm also die-hard patriotic. I love the country, U.S.

Speaker 8 So what I do, and I tell him, Habibi, come on. He said, this is what my leader, and he's continued dancing.
We're watching the first plane hit, now it's coming the second flight,

Speaker 8 hitting the second tower. I witnessed that.
Because when I give some interview, I see the questions, all this conspiracy. Look, it's BS.
I don't care how people think.

Speaker 8 I saw with my own eyes the second flight. I don't care what people think.
I care what what I see. You can't tell me, oh no, it's not true.
It's true. I saw the flight.

Speaker 8 What's behind? It's not my problem. What's behind? But I know terror attack was.
I saw the second flight.

Speaker 8 So now, I'm staying with him in a cell. Next day, he coming from FBI, NCIA counter-terrorism unit.
Complete institution is shut down.

Speaker 8 I'm watching people jumping from the tower. The both towers collapse.
I'm seeing all day. It's

Speaker 8 not the way you see in the movie. I'm witnessing with my own eyes.
Regardless if I'm in prison, but I'm still my heart. Now, now what I'm going to do, how I can pay back.

Speaker 8 They start bringing a lot of terrorists. The first day in my life, I met the counterterrorism unit from FBI and CIA.
They came to speak to me. It was September 12,

Speaker 8 2001.

Speaker 9 They came to speak to you September 12th, the very next day. So,

Speaker 8 next day.

Speaker 8 So, this is how I start myself to pay back to the U.S.

Speaker 8 I said, you know what?

Speaker 8 If I get in prison killed by helping government, I don't care. Because I know I'm doing good.
I don't care how they're going to say, oh, somebody was killed because it was informal. No, no.

Speaker 8 Me, I was looking my side. My side was, I want to be clean to the Americans.
I don't don't care how terrorists and Muslims look me.

Speaker 8 My point was American side. They came and sit down with me first day.

Speaker 8 This is how my journey started with the CIA. From that first day, and then the first name of the CIA ever spoke, Sean Linz.

Speaker 8 After second day meeting with the FBI,

Speaker 8 phone rings.

Speaker 8 I'm walking, they opened the common area in the seventh floor. I'm walking with one of the Taliban members

Speaker 8 in a prison, and they're calling my number, 5482-0053, and I'm looking to corrections officer over there, quiet in a prison, but the still debris and burning of the twin towers is there because my cell, I was in J71.

Speaker 8 J71 is pointed straight my window to the twin tower. Only Hudson River separates.
It's very close view. You can see it.

Speaker 8 And I'm going to the correction officer, he's saying uh somebody wants to talk to you i said okay i go in the counsel's office like a legal phone call he said your attorney because you have right to talk to the attorney and this is how he introduced my name is sean linz i'm calling you from a cia this is the clear conversation we need your help are you willing to help us i said anything i can do from today i will do it right off the bat he revealed no question nothing regardless what how i felt that moment when my child was with me I forgot everything I said you know what I am going to help the US intelligence agency no problem and I tell them anytime from today you can count on me

Speaker 8 and I start a dealing they start bringing a lot of terrorists from the streets they're picking up all kind of people from the street bringing in prison you know it was a that time CIA was not prepared the US agency was not prepared for the 9-11 it's not regardless how much they say, look, Sean, I read in a prison, I will mention the name, maybe you even met the guy, the best ever two books I read

Speaker 8 was Imperial and Animus. Two of this book, he was

Speaker 8 Mike Scheuer. He was in Bin Laden's unit 25 years, investigating Bin Laden for 25 years, CIA agent.
I read both of his books, the best books. in a prison.
I read all kinds of books.

Speaker 8 I read the book of the George Tennant and that's the time when I start. It was George Tennant, chief of the CIA, and the chief of operation was James Pavitt,

Speaker 8 running the agency. Head of the CIA was George Tennant.
James Pavitt was

Speaker 8 running the field

Speaker 8 agency.

Speaker 8 So this is what my first step with the CIA

Speaker 8 in September 12, 2001.

Speaker 9 What did he tell you after

Speaker 9 he revealed that he was CIA, that he wanted you to work with him? What did he say?

Speaker 8 He said, we need your help. I know you're Albanian.
I know you've been through with the federal prison, with prosecutors. We're not like them.
We're different than them. When we say things, we do it.

Speaker 8 And now we're going to bring a lot of people. We're going to need to find out who's who.

Speaker 8 Because, Sean, in a prison,

Speaker 8 when you're in the beginning, you speak right away because you need help.

Speaker 8 And you like you're in the middle of ocean and you're drowning and you see shark and you think shark going to help help you because you're drowning so in a prison when you get arrested you don't know the

Speaker 8 laws you trust people and you tell them what's going on so that's how I got to come out through the lot of al-Qaeda members lot of people that was financially supporting al-Qaeda giving the money you know the most danger was with the terror group financial is number one

Speaker 8 it's not hard to find the foot soldiers how much it's hard to find finance so for the intelligence agency was important to find out who's financing them then to find out the who's a foot soldier of al-Qaeda so food soldier is not hard they brainwash 18 19 years old 20 years old 21 22 some people they have a

Speaker 8 bad past in their life that's how they brainwash them but finance they get from higher level Muslims, like business people who wants to donate charity. So they want to know that.

Speaker 8 I started dealing with the CIA. For a year and a half, I was in contact always with Agent Sean Lentz.
So I hope when he see

Speaker 8 this

Speaker 8 interview, he will remember me. I dealt with him from September 2012 to 2022 until I was

Speaker 8 transferred, designated to

Speaker 8 Pennsylvania federal prison. So roughly two years I dealt with the CIA in that time.

Speaker 9 What was in it for you?

Speaker 9 Did they pay you?

Speaker 8 No,

Speaker 8 they was promising me they're gonna

Speaker 8 cut my sentence and recruit me to work agent in a street after.

Speaker 9 What kind of stuff were you revealing to them while inside prison?

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 8 revealed a lot of the guys, for example, there was Al-Qaeda supporters,

Speaker 8 Al-Qaeda financer. I met with a guy who met Bin Laden after 9-11.
So I met with a group of Lakawana Six. They met with Bin Laden after 9-11.

Speaker 8 So I was with them. I was with Yemeni group.
I was with

Speaker 8 one of the Hezbollah members who was kidnapped in the Adriatic coast early 80s. I don't know if you remember when the TW

Speaker 8 pilot was was shot in hijacking. Hezbollah member, he was with me.
So it was a missing body of the Israeli soldier and they were trying to get the information.

Speaker 8 But it was something very interesting, Sean.

Speaker 8 CIA

Speaker 8 was interested to get information from informers. Even people admitted in things.

Speaker 8 I'm going to give you a little small detail in a short point.

Speaker 8 You know, in Islam, for example, if you get arrested, you can even say you're not no more Muslim. They train them, and it's that's only one thing I don't like in religion.

Speaker 8 If you get arrested, you give up all the information, and then you say to the agency, okay, I can be with you, you know, and then you lie.

Speaker 8 Then you go in the street, you become again terrorist group, you know, terror members. You know, you never get born burned with a terrorist group.
Even today, I give you an example myself.

Speaker 8 We're going to come to the points how I was offered from ISIS to become leader of ISIS, not a foot soldier, a leader of ISIS.

Speaker 8 Even being somebody suspicious if I was a CIA spy, they called me, I spoke with very high-ranking ISIS leader. Wow.

Speaker 9 We'll get to that. We'll get to that.

Speaker 8 It's more to the story.

Speaker 9 Yeah, there's a lot more to the story. And so when they would bring these guys into prison, how would you know who to target?

Speaker 8 I was a

Speaker 8 Muazim. They come in, we talking, we're eating, we praying together, we're reading Quran together.
So now I'm picking.

Speaker 8 They would tell me, for example, I would say one name now, just his last name, Saria.

Speaker 8 He was

Speaker 8 a Hamas member. So he told me, I'm not Al-Qaeda member, brother.
I'm a Hamas member.

Speaker 8 So he never admitted to the government anything, but he was telling me because we want to know who's a member of al-Qaeda in a group, in a prison, who's a member of Hamas or Hezbollah, who's a Shii,

Speaker 8 who followed Salafi Saleheen, who's the first three generation of Prophet Muhammad, peace be in him. So I found out, I tried to find all this information through communication with them.

Speaker 8 And that's how I was sharing the information with the CIA.

Speaker 9 What other kind of information were they interested in? So they would bring everybody in, and then you would figure out which terrorist group they were associating with.

Speaker 8 If it's a threat or if it's innocent.

Speaker 8 If he did something or not. If somebody was really innocent, I would say, look, my opinion, this guy has nothing to do.
He was just pick up like a wrong time, wrong place.

Speaker 8 He has nothing to do with this. And I saw people got released.

Speaker 8 Not just because of my opinion, but you know, at least they want to, you know, how they're acting in a prison and if they're saying something. And then

Speaker 8 the biggest part when i met with uh uh all these uh terror groups members i built my reputation the cia advised me so it's they insurance was so i can build my name among the group sean these people they talk

Speaker 8 if i'm in a prison with them and they said oh we have a brother amir it's very strict salafi he's willing to fight against US if he come out from the prison he's gonna be number one mujahideen you believe or not

Speaker 8 98 to 99 percent of the correction officers in the prison the old used to think I'm gonna be future leader of al-Qaeda from the prison when I come out but they didn't know I was a

Speaker 8 in the CIA side in the government side My bear was up to here. I learned Quran.
I read

Speaker 8 Arabic,

Speaker 8 I learned for at least four months Arabic I become imam in prison among terror group me why Caucasian to lead terror groups you have to be step of head to know the Islam more than them

Speaker 8 and especially when they know

Speaker 8 I to the people who was interested in the CIA I used to tell them look they are they kidnapped my daughter I took this blame I was not doing this crime I was not involved.

Speaker 8 You know, a lot of the fanatics, when you tell them you got arrested coming from Pakistan, they don't think you was coming because you was involved from drugs.

Speaker 8 They think you was involved with al-Qaeda. So right away the trust came out for me to become very powerful in a prison.
I was strong in the prison community.

Speaker 8 And that's how CIA advised me, build your reputation in prison. So when you come out, you can be straight inside of al-Qaeda high-ranking position.

Speaker 9 So there was a long play right from the get-go. Yes, sir.
It wasn't just sort through these guys to figure out who they are associated with. It was building your reputation.

Speaker 8 Almost eight years. Almost a decade.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 learning Islam a lot. Like I can freely sit and debate with any Islamic scholar.
I'm good, knowledgeable, any Islamic scholar. I can talk about religion

Speaker 8 no different from al-Qaeda members, not foot soldiers. We talk in high rank in Al-Qaeda.
That's how they accept me

Speaker 8 by testing me how much I have, what kind of knowledge I have in religion.

Speaker 8 Then it came out very easy using my family, how they hold my child

Speaker 8 like a kidnapping.

Speaker 9 How long were you working for the CIA inside of prison?

Speaker 8 From

Speaker 8 September 12, 2001 to

Speaker 8 the day I was released December and 2007, 11 December 2007. All these years.

Speaker 8 I worked with the CIA. I want to be very clear.
I work with the FBI, counterterrorism unit. All the agency used to come and talk.
Every time. Anything,

Speaker 8 Sean, it was a lot of different terrorists. It's a lot of different members.
I had Akshataiba from the Virginia group.

Speaker 8 I had the Iraqi war, Ali Timimi, Ali Shandia, all these, they are in Florence, Colorado. All this group, they was getting arrested after the war in Iraq.

Speaker 8 So it's not like just a little bit Mickey Mouse. It was a lot of groups of people, a lot of dangerous people.
So I was always

Speaker 8 among the most dangerous groups of the terrorists. It's not like something small, not like a foot soldier, like Lakwana Six or

Speaker 8 the.

Speaker 8 I'm going to come back to the story in 2016 when I met the leader of al-Qaeda in a group of five in New York.

Speaker 8 They got arrested, but we don't want to change the subject from this part to the end of the subject, you know, the story, because we're going to come out

Speaker 8 I asked the leader, he would never believe what he told me how he wants to go become a leader of ISIS was the reason why he wants to become leader and why he wants to become ISIS member.

Speaker 8 I was in shock what he told me. I was in shock.

Speaker 8 We talking in a prison where he told me why he wants to become ISIS member. Why?

Speaker 8 He wants to have a woman. He never had a woman in his life.
He wants to go get those slaves over there, those

Speaker 8 Yazidian

Speaker 8 take hostage women in Syria. This is the only reason he become a

Speaker 8 jihadist.

Speaker 9 That's it.

Speaker 8 Crazy.

Speaker 9 It's not for religion.

Speaker 8 It's against religion. Absolutely.
And I can show it to you. He's now in prison.
In a federal prison. I said, brother, are you crazy?

Speaker 8 You telling me you want to fight the sake of God because you never had a woman. I can date woman anytime you want.
You in America. He's a born American.
It's not a convert. He's born U.S.

Speaker 8 and he wants to become an ISIS member. He's a ringleader of one one of the five of the group.
He said because he wants to have a girlfriend. He wants to have a slave.

Speaker 8 He wants to have three, four wife, five wives over there.

Speaker 8 I know the guy who

Speaker 8 shot

Speaker 8 another jihadist just to take his wife. That's not Islam.
We're going to come to the point you will never believe it. People are not going to, they're going to say, this is crazy.

Speaker 8 This is like you want a prostitute. You don't want to fight sake of God.

Speaker 8 This is how they brainwash them.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 9 Did you ever feel like you were compromised in prison? Like anybody was on to you working for the CIA?

Speaker 8 Look,

Speaker 8 I will tell you this. I'm sitting in a yard.
I have a lot of tattoos in the arms and stuff. I have AK-47.

Speaker 8 I have a tattoo rided from his bulam member. his handwriting and I'm sitting in a yard with a tank top and one of the informers Albanian he asked me, What do you have here?

Speaker 8 I have an AK-47, and it says God is a great.

Speaker 8 And I said, That's Bin Laden's name, but he doesn't know Arabic. In 24 hours, son, FBI come in my

Speaker 8 federal prison. Remember, not all the agency used to know I have I'm connected to the CIA.
You know, it's very strict control. They don't share the information.
It's not like a lot of times I was

Speaker 8 informers used to give information about me,

Speaker 8 giving information to the government. I'm a terrorist.
I'm a very fanatic, but I was linked to CIA. You know, I was never fanatic.
But people, I was interviewed from FBI in prison.

Speaker 8 I was interviewed from a DEA in prison, a few times from the FBI. And this guy,

Speaker 8 in the morning, they're calling me, go

Speaker 8 RBMB, meaning you're going to visit the room. And I didn't have no visit.
And when I walk into a VI agent,

Speaker 8 I'm sitting down. My name is so-and-so.

Speaker 8 We want to know what kind of tattoos you have in your body. They put me in a strip room,

Speaker 8 naked. This look my tattoo.
They're taking pictures of my tattoo. Can you tell me what you have? I said, this is God is great.

Speaker 8 And another one, I bear witness there is no God but Allah. And

Speaker 8 another part here, here I have Islamist religion of peace in Arabic, sign of peace, all this thing.

Speaker 8 They're taking pictures, and I love, I started laughing with the FBI. I said, I'm sorry, sir.

Speaker 8 We're keeping between us.

Speaker 8 Informer Antoine, give you yesterday information. I was in the yard working out.
He asked me about this. Don't depend on with this informer.
And I told him straight up. I work for CIA.

Speaker 8 Straight in the prison, I told him the FBI. If you don't believe, call so-and-so.

Speaker 8 And then they never came back. They said, I'm sorry.
If you are like that, we apologize. They walk away.

Speaker 8 They took him former from the prison right away because they thought if I go back in the prison, I will stab him or something because I'm a

Speaker 8 leader to the Muslim community. In a prison shop, when I was a leader of Muslims, I used to have bodyguards.

Speaker 8 I used to have Muslims. It was 150 Muslims.
If I was given order, something to do in prison, I couldn't put a prison shot down completely. They were going to do my whatever I was telling to do.

Speaker 8 It was a time I had to prove myself. I'm a good Muslim.
I had to beat somebody. A few times, not once.
Two times I used to beat a Muslim.

Speaker 8 One is Pakistani Muslim, one Lebanese Muslim, because they had the problem with a gang group. Now, gangs, not to stab them, I was ordered to prove myself.
I'm a good jihadist.

Speaker 8 I had to go beat them in a bathroom.

Speaker 8 I had to beat them one was bleeding so I can prove myself I'm a fanatic I'm a sympathizer I'm a jihadist so I had to do that and the CIA knew it FBI knew it I did that SIS the best ever in federal prison I tell you this he has a your past 100%

Speaker 8 because he was with the Navy and Marines

Speaker 8 Lieutenant lion lions the best ever man of American deal in my life lieutenant Lyon, I hope you hear that. He was the best man.
He knew everything what I was doing with CIA.

Speaker 8 Every connection, every conversation I needed, I was going through him.

Speaker 8 Every special things I was needing to do, special visit with my family, he was just telling me, Bloody, when you need to do that, next week, I do it for you.

Speaker 8 That was the best ever from American agency who treat me good, does the Lieutenant Lyon

Speaker 8 in FCI Ollymood Penitentiary?

Speaker 9 Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about what happened after prison.

Speaker 9 All right, Blair, we're back from the break. And

Speaker 9 you're getting out of prison now. We're getting ready to go.
And I feel like we did the whole, I feel like that was a whole interview in itself.

Speaker 9 Now we get into the real meat. But I am curious, I mean,

Speaker 9 what does the agency think that now that you're out talking about this stuff with the documentary? And have you had any contact with them?

Speaker 8 I had that one time

Speaker 8 after I got my

Speaker 8 granted refugee, I mean, status from the immigration

Speaker 8 phone call for two minutes, private, saying like you don't have to worry too much now about documentaries and stuff. Just enjoy your life, you know, keep yourself low profile.

Speaker 8 And here you are.

Speaker 8 Look at, Sean, I'll be very honest. If I had to go from beginning, I swear to God, I would do it from beginning.
It's just the mistake of the agency.

Speaker 8 They promise you, they promise you the biggest problem i want to highlight this the biggest problem at the u.m

Speaker 8 when you have a source like me for example

Speaker 8 give a chance to have somebody if i have a question because if i deal with the agent i dealt for a year and a half if he make a mistake i have no where to complain or to ask questions.

Speaker 8 Everything has to go through one.

Speaker 8 The best intelligent, you have to have have another second source, you know, to see what's going on.

Speaker 8 If the agents make a mistake, because I know agent, I was not perfect, John. I mean, I'm sorry, Sean.

Speaker 8 I was not perfect, but I was the best.

Speaker 8 When you said why, and people want to know why the best.

Speaker 8 Look, I was not Afghani, I was not Iraqi, I was not Syrian, I was not Jordanian, I was not none of this, but I came out to operate all of these places.

Speaker 8 I went, I believe strongly, if CIA was still

Speaker 8 going on to support me and work, I believe strongly I will go meet the bin Laden. Not that I want,

Speaker 8 he will ask to meet with me

Speaker 8 because I came out to meet very high-ranking leaders.

Speaker 8 And you know, in tourism,

Speaker 8 this is how they go. The way they got my record from the people in a prison families, my name, that's how they go, oh, you know what?

Speaker 8 The Amir,

Speaker 8 let me see what he is.

Speaker 8 If we want to make him a leader in Balkan to recruit

Speaker 8 al-Qaeda members, or how we can use.

Speaker 8 That's how terrorists work. They're desperate to

Speaker 8 have somebody like me in a group. It's white, Caucasian, somebody who have the skills to pass any airport.
Sean, believe it or not, if you tell me today, can you go in this country?

Speaker 8 I promise you in one week I can go in any country you point. Today, the way I'm exposed, if you tell me if you can travel to any country you said, one week, 10 days, I will be in the country you said.

Speaker 8 I have no problem. I'm not young, but I still, my head works.

Speaker 8 I can do still things.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 the government agencies sometimes they have an issue among themselves sharing the information.

Speaker 8 We're going to come to the point there was an issue with them. They're trying to recruit me again after I came in the US in 2015.

Speaker 8 But they said a lot of agency has to be in a loop.

Speaker 8 You know, I was not exposed yet. The biggest problem, the biggest mistake they make with the New York Times.

Speaker 8 When president says it's a lot of fake news, trust me, it's a lot of fake news. Why? Because New York Times put me in the first page.

Speaker 8 I was arrested for jumping something. I was never ever shown arrested in that.
One day I arrested me. I don't want to come to the story.

Speaker 8 This is like to the ends of the story. When they arrest me in 2016, it was over 50 agents arresting me.
Bin Laden didn't have that kind of agents.

Speaker 8 Helicopter with a sniper was in top of my car wash arresting me. And when they arrest me, I'm reading the names of the agents.
They're all from New Jersey, not from New York.

Speaker 8 But in the meantime, Sean, I'm meeting with head of the intelligence of New York, John Miller. I was meeting with him like like with you, with him and five of his workers in my lawyer's office.

Speaker 8 Why would you burn somebody who's meeting with John Miller?

Speaker 9 Well, I mean, I think they keep that tight to the vest because the more people that know, the higher the chance that it leaks.

Speaker 8 No, I think it's more than that.

Speaker 9 Really? What do you think it is?

Speaker 8 It's, you know,

Speaker 8 agents, they have one problem. They like to cover each other.
Even if you're wrong, they want to cover.

Speaker 8 Because when I give information, Sean, I want to be very clear.

Speaker 8 I didn't talk about this.

Speaker 8 One day, Al-Qaeda told me not to be in a blue area in Pakistan. I updated to CIA.
Sean, I can tell you, I was communicating worldnewsrob.com.

Speaker 8 I had my code and everything.

Speaker 8 And when I update CIA, I said, look,

Speaker 8 please tell them if, because I was in blue area, area, a lot of Americans, I see, because I was there, I watched. You know, them, they don't know who I am, but I know them.

Speaker 8 I can tell when it's supposed to be, if it's an American agent or not, like you, for example, I can tell why you're in that hotel.

Speaker 8 When I tell them, please share this information because it's in a blue area, they're trying to send a suicide bomber, believe it or not.

Speaker 8 Less than I think 24 hours, there was a suicide bomber and killed all of them.

Speaker 8 And he failed to update that. When I came

Speaker 8 to

Speaker 8 provide the information from the field

Speaker 8 back in the Balkans from the Pakistan. He said, fuck, I fucked her up.

Speaker 8 I said, why, Chris? I failed here. He couldn't update it.
That's why all those people got killed.

Speaker 8 I was not spying in an agent.

Speaker 8 But if he make a mistake, he should say, you know what? I'm sorry I was late. I couldn't

Speaker 8 update to the CIA this information. I did update update it from over there right away.
I said, Look, it's gonna be tomorrow after tomorrow, suicide bomb in this area.

Speaker 8 And I was suicide bombing, I think, four or five Americans got killed.

Speaker 8 So I don't want a credit.

Speaker 8 I don't want nothing. I didn't work this job because I can make money.
I make money in normal life.

Speaker 8 He just respects me, said, you know what? Let's help him. Why he gotta go through the process of immigration when he was working for us.
I didn't want it to be hero.

Speaker 8 I don't wanna have a medal honor, but at least you know I did that. I have my family here.

Speaker 8 Who wants to do this dangerous job? It's very hard, especially when they start hearing this story. Look, while I talk to you, I know who works for the CIA today from my country.

Speaker 8 I found out in my way,

Speaker 8 it's nothing. It's a piece of garbage.
He doesn't even know nothing. So you cannot have somebody in charge like that person, for example.
They take him to train him. They train me too.

Speaker 8 I receive training too. I was trained from the CIA.
I don't hide that. You know, I'm capable to do anything.
You tell me you want to do bomb, I can do the bomb, it's no problem.

Speaker 8 And do you think Al-Qaeda don't want a member like me? Even I'm exposed today, they will take me tomorrow. Even if I'm exposed until this moment, they will still take me.
They want a man like me.

Speaker 8 But why you want to avoid to have to CIA somebody who can help me? I couldn't translate things. I couldn't even decode the phone conversation.
I know how they communicate the terrorists.

Speaker 8 So why you want to like make

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 8 look,

Speaker 8 it's a crazy, we talking like it's very interesting part. I have had the sources.
I was receiving information from inside of the job of the CIA

Speaker 8 just recently.

Speaker 8 Look at who I am. I receive a lot of crazy stuff from the CIA in Virginia, we're talking, from the base, what CIA

Speaker 8 told people about me. CIA tried to spread the rumor very bad about me.
It's not to be trusted. How can I not be trusted? You burn me.

Speaker 8 And then they said, oh, we cannot, one of them said,

Speaker 8 we're not denying, but we're not

Speaker 8 accepting. You know, hey, I'm coming.

Speaker 8 I show you the picture with the Stinger missile. You think in U.S.
soil you show that picture and you don't get indicted from the federal prosecutor? In heartbeat.

Speaker 8 But I was a CIA spy, and I don't regret that, never.

Speaker 8 To the day I die, I'm proud of what I did. And I told my kids, if I had to do it again, I would do it again.
But at least treat me, man.

Speaker 8 I deserve to be treated, you know. Tell him, look, judge, this man doesn't need to be in immigration court.
It's our man.

Speaker 8 It's not easy to.

Speaker 8 It costs money to train somebody like me. It costs

Speaker 8 an agent came from

Speaker 8 here to train me overseas.

Speaker 8 I was in a a training camp from the agent from U.S.

Speaker 8 You know? So you spending all this money and losing the source like that? Come on. It's not normal.
We'll get to it.

Speaker 9 Go ahead. We'll get to it.
But were they paying you?

Speaker 8 Yeah, they was paying me. They were paying you.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 9 So it was a business transaction that you expected.

Speaker 8 The highest amount I did receive one time over 40 grand. One shot.
40 grand cash.

Speaker 9 And so I guess what I'm saying is you are expecting more from them than just the payment.

Speaker 8 You know, business arrangement. No, not the payment.
I was never accepting no more money. Just to tell the immigration judge, look, he deserved to be with his family here.

Speaker 8 He did for his family.

Speaker 8 He has a wife born and raised here. Every country in the world, son,

Speaker 8 they give a chance to somebody. I did mistakes in the past.
I'm not clean. I'm not saying.

Speaker 8 But I deserve to have a second chance to be with my family. I don't need to to be arrested in 2016 and expose myself.

Speaker 8 They couldn't be low-profile, give him his papers back and let him enjoy his life here. He deserved.
He worked for us. He put his life in danger to protect us, to save our country.

Speaker 8 So why we don't go and just give a

Speaker 8 just signature, paper. I didn't ask for anything, just a paper.
Tell the judge. He deserved to be here.
Let him be out with his family.

Speaker 8 I was $50,000 bombed, fifty grand here for five years and they investigate sean i

Speaker 8 they

Speaker 8 recruit a woman who cleaned my room my house i'm sorry overseas and give her paper today

Speaker 8 they brought her from overseas she was cleaning my uh house in in the city i used to i was born I was alone, I was paying her, I feel bad. Family member, just what she tells them,

Speaker 8 I have a weapons. See, I knew it.
I love weapons. I had the trucks.
This is this room, it's nothing. It was four times, five times bigger than this, full of ton of weapons.

Speaker 8 But we put with the CIA from bad guys, from al-Qaeda members.

Speaker 8 It was not my weapons.

Speaker 9 Was the initial arrangement? Well, we'll get into this. Yes, let's get into the interview, because I think maybe some clarity will come to me on that.
But so, how did you get out of prison?

Speaker 8 First time or second time?

Speaker 9 First time.

Speaker 8 I finished my time. You finished your time? I completed my time, eight years.
And so... Eight years and four months.

Speaker 9 Just to backtrack,

Speaker 9 I thought that

Speaker 9 they had contacted you again to infiltrate the terrorist networks. But that was the long game.

Speaker 9 They wanted to start with you in prison for a longer

Speaker 8 time. So I can be in the street.
I'm not going to be working with this.

Speaker 9 Okay, so you get out of prison. What happens then?

Speaker 8 I'm going to the U.S. Embassy in 2008, walking in,

Speaker 8 asking, because before I got out of prison, I want to just, so you can be clear, two times I was interviewed from DOD, Department of Defense, two months before I got from the prison.

Speaker 8 They tell me, when you get back home, you want to work for us because maybe you're going to look good. if they deport you.
I said, yeah, no problem. And what's going to be exchanged?

Speaker 8 We'll bring you back.

Speaker 8 when we promise you we do it we're not federal this is always the award when we promise you we're not a federal prosecutor CIA keep the words this is what they tell me they promise me they're going to bring me back help me they said you are going to be safe for rest of your life

Speaker 8 you're just gonna keep your mouth shut not to expose anything I couldn't keep my mouth shut if I'm if you left me in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 8 I get interviewed, I'm going back to U.S. Embassy in Macedonia, walking in, meeting Mr.
Devon, the best ever CIA agent I met. If he was in

Speaker 8 still working with me, I will be maybe more happy. And I hope you hear that.
Mr. Devon, he's the one who I started working with them.

Speaker 8 I did polygraph tests, I signed the contract agreement, everything at the embassy. And they tell me from today you work for CIA.

Speaker 8 You have a paycheck, you have all expenses paid, all the travels, whatever you're going to need it, we are here to support you.

Speaker 8 All you need, we need it now, you to collect information to see if you cannot come up to Al-Qaeda. We are interested to know if it's bin Laden live or dead.

Speaker 8 And if you work yourself in a circle of Al-Qaeda, we'll be very happy and we're going to help you. And I said, I have no problem.
They helped me. They was giving me money, no question.

Speaker 8 They paid my vacation for my wife and kids in Turkey and all these things. It's no problem.
And even today, even today,

Speaker 8 I am very grateful to the immigration. They allowed me to stay.
Today I'm clean with the laws. I have no issues with the laws.
Absolutely. I'm like normal.

Speaker 8 Like, it's just the problem: I cannot travel overseas. They don't give me no document to travel overseas.
I can be here, enjoy my life. I'm working, paying taxes, everything.

Speaker 8 But it's still not enough.

Speaker 8 It couldn't be, you know, right path. My wife is born and raised.
I have right to do adjustment of status so I can become U.S. citizen.

Speaker 8 My wife is born here. Every country who has a wife citizen, they still can give a chance.
They don't deport them. My three kids are American-born.
My family is all American.

Speaker 8 Mother, father, sisters, brother, all of them,

Speaker 8 even they passed away, they was American citizen. So why are you abusing me? Why you went...

Speaker 8 I would never go in the media or documentary, even this documentary, if they was not going to arrest me in 2016.

Speaker 8 But they arrested me, I look like a piece of garbage. You train me, you know how much skills I have.
What do you want? And I believe,

Speaker 8 I also believe, Sean, sometimes maybe, you know, some different informers, they want to get the credit. They think maybe, oh, he's going to become terrorist.
Never. I commit suicide myself.

Speaker 8 I hang myself. I will never go against the country my kids born.
Never, ever. It's impossible.

Speaker 8 So maybe informers spread these rumors to the sources, or maybe blami can be al-Qaeda member or ISIS member. Never, Sean, again, repeat it.
I will never, I will hang myself, never be Al-Qaeda member.

Speaker 8 No terror group.

Speaker 8 I have a beautiful kid born American.

Speaker 8 I don't go against my family.

Speaker 9 So you get out of prison, you get deported. Yes.

Speaker 9 And then you go through immigration at the Macedonian embassy where you meet your...

Speaker 8 No, I have nothing to do with immigration. I'm going to the Macedonian embassy and meeting with the CI agents.
Okay. You know, embassy meeting with the CI agents.

Speaker 9 How do they contact you?

Speaker 8 When I go over there, they put me in one room, small room. I give my ID.

Speaker 8 He came down and he said, give me a half hour. He go in the office.
He said, welcome back. We know who you are.
All the details. He said, we're going to have to meet the next week.

Speaker 9 How did they initially contact you?

Speaker 8 Was it a phone call? No, I went to the myself.

Speaker 9 You went there yourself?

Speaker 8 I went to the U.S. Embassy in Macedonia myself.

Speaker 8 So to see my rights to come to the United States.

Speaker 8 And then they told me, we know who you are, come here. Then they make a meeting next week with me.
We spent six, seven hours. They said, look,

Speaker 8 we know what happened with you. We know what you did in the past.

Speaker 8 We know what the prosecutors did, but this is the best time for you. Everybody knows here now you got deported, how they got arrested, your family, holding them, this and that.

Speaker 8 It's the best time to be covered, to work for us, and we can bring you back. This is my first step, how I started with the CIA in 2008, field agent.

Speaker 9 Was there any discussion of pay at that initial meeting?

Speaker 8 Payment

Speaker 8 payment I had in the beginning was first week. I started with 400 euros, 700 euros, 1200 euros, then 2,500 euros a month and the whole expenses.

Speaker 8 And they said, we're going to help you to be with your family. Nothing more than that.
No extra payment over this. But they said, always we're going to keep you safe.

Speaker 9 And so when did you take the polygraph?

Speaker 8 I think after a month or two.

Speaker 8 If I don't make a mistake, my first trip in Pakistan when I came back, just to see if I'm a double agent or just for the CIA.

Speaker 9 How long did that take?

Speaker 8 It took a couple of hours, three hours, I think, two hours. One polygraph? One time, yes.

Speaker 9 You passed the first time?

Speaker 8 Yes, first time I passed.

Speaker 9 Right on. Not a lot of people pass that.

Speaker 8 I passed the first time. And they told me.
And they told me.

Speaker 8 Look, Sean, we're going to come to the stories. You will never believe what I did.

Speaker 8 And even people are going to say, What are you lying? I don't, Sean, in the United States, if you make a story, you commit perjury, you get charged. It's a federal crime.

Speaker 8 I cannot come and say, hey, this is who I am or this is what I did. I cannot come and say, I was trying to build a bomb so this way I can show to terrorists I can build a bomb.

Speaker 8 So if the federal prosecutors know that, in two minutes, they will arrest me. I say that a few times.

Speaker 9 So you get recruited,

Speaker 9 you have the meeting the next week. What is the next week?

Speaker 8 The Senate The next week's meeting, we signed the contract. It was three agents, two male and one female.
I remember like today, we spent like five, six hours or that day in the embassy.

Speaker 8 And then they instruct me first, they said, build an

Speaker 8 enterprise in your city among the community. And then next trip start using the phone contacts you had in a prison.
I had from Yemen, from Saudi Arabia. I visited,

Speaker 8 I went, I was guest to number one, the strongest grand movie of Saudi. I was invited.
He never knew what I was a CIA spy. I was his guest.

Speaker 8 I used the sources from family, prisoners, from being in terror charges. That's how I came out to build my name so good.

Speaker 8 Like, I didn't believe, there was a time I didn't even believe they trust me so much.

Speaker 8 I said to myself,

Speaker 8 if I'm a sick or liar or something, how come they invite me so much? But I found out from the people. I used to use sources, you know, just to build my reputation, they can bring me in.

Speaker 9 And so, what did the training involve?

Speaker 9 Training? You said you received training.

Speaker 8 With the CIA? Yes.

Speaker 8 First, I was how to communicate with people, language skills, and then they advised me how to do a weapons deal in case.

Speaker 8 So this way if the al-Qaeda try test you or if you need to pull some weapons, they teach me how to do this.

Speaker 8 Like we pulled a lot of bombs and explosives from bad people guys hands in the Kosovo, in Albania too. So I took with the trucks all the

Speaker 8 explosive TNT, C4, you name it, rocket launchers, stingers, all of them, and all with my hands. When the CIA took them, they took like in a package, like all

Speaker 8 when they bring me trucks, CIA brought me trucks, their trucks. I loaded the truck myself with my people.
You know, you have to take the detectors and all this, you know, so not to explode.

Speaker 8 So I took one by one all the detectors, all the explosives. We have mines, land mines, all this stuff, put it in the truck, and the CIA took it and they destroyed it.

Speaker 9 And so, how long was the training?

Speaker 8 It was

Speaker 8 like,

Speaker 8 I can tell you easy, like three, four months you can put always training when I meet with them. Like every

Speaker 8 first week, second week, eight hours, nine hours, eight hours. It was a time, three days we didn't never come out from the place with the CIA.
Three days.

Speaker 8 Sleep day and night.

Speaker 8 How to deal, how to communicate, how to use the weapons. Three days, never come out from the place with the CIA, with three agents and me.
Where was it?

Speaker 8 Where? In Macedonia.

Speaker 9 In Macedonia? Yes.

Speaker 8 They used to have safe houses everywhere.

Speaker 8 Then they used the bone steel in the military base in Kosovo.

Speaker 9 And so you get recruited in Macedonia, I guess.

Speaker 9 You go through the training. They tell you they want you to infiltrate Al-Qaeda specifically.
Yes.

Speaker 9 And they tell you to do it through your previous contacts in prison and just to grow your network even wider. Yes, sir.
And so who's the first person that you reached out to?

Speaker 8 The first person I was sentenced 25 years or 30 years in a federal prison for supporting al-Qaeda, his name is Salim. He was in prison.
He introduced me in his family in Pakistan.

Speaker 9 And what did you ask him?

Speaker 8 Oh, I told him when I come out from the prison, I'm going to join brothers.

Speaker 8 Everybody knew it. When I come out from the prison, all the fanatics, all the terrorists knew it.
The first day they're going to deport me, I'm going to go be joined the jihadist.

Speaker 8 All of them.

Speaker 9 And who did he connect you with?

Speaker 8 First, he took me his brother to somebody, and that's how it started with Beitula Massoud, the ringleader of al-Qaeda in Pakistan.

Speaker 9 So right off the bat.

Speaker 8 It's second time.

Speaker 9 Second time. Yes.
And what would these meetings be like?

Speaker 8 When I meet him, when I give an oath to them, they took all my clothes off.

Speaker 8 They took me with those motorcycles. They changed the car.
They played.

Speaker 8 Look, I want to say this. So people cannot.

Speaker 8 I know

Speaker 8 sometimes they don't trust easy, but they use words, oh, we're going to put you in a trunk because if the checkpoint is police, we are from here, local.

Speaker 8 So if they see you foreigner, we're going to give them more

Speaker 8 excuse to question us and to check us, the Pakistani agency. So I said, okay, they put me in the trunk of the car for a few hours.
hours. I was riding inside of the trunk.
I didn't see nothing.

Speaker 8 Roughly roads and whatever, you know. Then when they put me inside, I met

Speaker 8 Abu Muhammad al-Masri.

Speaker 8 He's still wanted, he's still in his life because I was reading one of the books recently for Abu Ali Sufyan. He did it.
He was a former CIA for 10-15 years after 9-11.

Speaker 8 He wrote the book and I see his picture, the one I was meeting with him. He put in a book, he still wanted.
So he was there. It was another jihadist from Bosnia,

Speaker 8 Egyptian, but born in

Speaker 8 Bosnia. I speak Bosnian.
So when he speaks, I speak Bosnian too. So when he talked, and he tells me, Brother, you still want to be with brothers? I said, Alhamdulillah, that's what I'm here for.

Speaker 8 And then he got hugged me and he said, to introduce me, he never introduced my name to nobody, only Amir or Abu Medina.

Speaker 8 So not to be known where I'm coming from. So Amir or Abu Medina is our new Mujahidin with us.

Speaker 9 Wow. Were you nervous at all?

Speaker 8 I mean, did you. Not at all.
Because I had the strong support.

Speaker 8 Only nervous. I was just afraid not to be leaked.

Speaker 8 So then I get killed.

Speaker 9 And how would you communicate back to the CIA?

Speaker 8 WorldNewsRob.com. I tell you, here is, I'll give you the detail.

Speaker 8 CIA never knew it. When I was in a field, Sean,

Speaker 8 if I had to update quick something, I used to call my wife and talk to her in Albanian. And she was updating.
But this is what I broke. This is where I make a mistake.

Speaker 8 Because I was told nobody can know this. But my wife knew it.
I told my wife. Sean,

Speaker 8 I told my wife because I thought if I get killed, they're going to think I got killed in a drug dealing or something.

Speaker 8 At least somebody to know I'm working for the government. You know, so they can be one day proud.
Look, my husband got killed working for CIA, not being a drug dealer.

Speaker 8 So this is the reason I told my wife. So my kids grow up.
They don't want to hear, oh, my dad got killed in a drug deal in somewhere in Pakistan or overseas.

Speaker 8 But to be proud, my dad was killed because he was working for our agency to protect us, to keep us safe. So this is why I told my wife.
And then

Speaker 8 when I need to update it, I give a quote to her, worldnewsrob.com, and I have all those numbers to click it.

Speaker 8 And then she was writing whatever I tell her in Albanian, because over there was more easy somebody to spy on me if it's a different language in albanian it was not albanian nobody was albanian over there in al-qaeda at that time i was now yes but that time was nobody albanian only me so i was feeling safe and i was telling my wife okay tell them this tell them that and then she was going to computer and updated cia never knew it my wife is updating from new york city They always knew it.

Speaker 8 I'm updating from somewhere

Speaker 8 those internet cafes and stuff like that. But I did it also in the internet cafes.
I did update the CIA and I used to look around where it's poor neighborhoods.

Speaker 8 I used to go, like, I'm looking at some Quranic stuff, and then I'm going to my website. Then I'm deleting complete, and I'm coming out.

Speaker 8 But I was always careful because you know, when I, first time I give off, I stay, I think, three, four days, if I don't make a mistake, in Al-Qaeda camp.

Speaker 8 Then, after four days, I went back and stayed in the guest house.

Speaker 8 So I had a chance to update. There was like, there was not Al-Qaeda, Sean, Al-Qaeda recruit me the way I saw, they thought I was going to be leader to recruit foreigners in the Balkans.

Speaker 8 This was the goal, you know, not me to be like a foot soldier the way you saw in Iraq throwing

Speaker 8 RPG and stuff like that. They was not looking at me like that.
They was looking at me like to be high rank in Al-Qaeda.

Speaker 8 So there was this is the interest of Al-Qaeda in me. And this was the the best opportunity for CIA, you know, to have me like that.

Speaker 9 And so what was it inside, how would worldnews.com work?

Speaker 8 I will show to you, if you want to, Latera, from my phone. It was very, like you go and you click in World News, it comes news.

Speaker 8 Then you have in a site login.

Speaker 8 You don't think if you don't know the website. And then you have a login.
When you go log in, it comes a little small place.

Speaker 8 You put your code, your numbers.

Speaker 8 I had the numbers. I don't want to mention that.
I don't want to, you know, something exposed is not good. And I was clicking that.
Again, it was giving me another code. And then it was open me.

Speaker 8 And those communication you see, write and type in.

Speaker 8 And then logging out and

Speaker 8 disappear everything. Another option I had.
I used to have some white papers. somewhere when I travel.
And if I need to write it, I will be right.

Speaker 8 If they stop me, I can put that white paper in a water and it melts everything.

Speaker 8 And you don't see nothing no more. You just put the uh white paper.

Speaker 8 Yeah, everything.

Speaker 9 Would they be able to give send you traffic through world news.com?

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 8 And they used I used to have also GPS some places.

Speaker 8 When I used to be in a weapons or if I was in dangers or if I was tracing something or I want to buy something, I used to you know click it and they used to know when I what button I click it and they know what I am the location so it's connected it was a small piece like that a beacon yeah what did it look like it's like a yellow and black it's you don't talk you just it's a tracing device yeah and has those buttons if you if I was in a danger I will put click it three times and they will try to help me if I'm in a dangerous situation.

Speaker 8 So if it's something for location, I used to just click one. If it's for weapons, it's two times.
Only three times I was a piece to click it if I was in a danger. So I needed help.
It never happened.

Speaker 8 So I never needed, I was never in a situation dangerous. Wow, that's

Speaker 9 that's surprising. That's surprising.
And so you, okay, so let's go, let's go back again. So you get the training, you meet with the head of al-Qaeda.

Speaker 9 and out in Pakistan, or one of the top guys in Al-Qaeda and Pakistan. And

Speaker 9 the whole premise of all of this was they wanted you to set up a new cell of Al-Qaeda where you're from.

Speaker 8 Become a leader.

Speaker 9 And become a leader. Yes, sir.

Speaker 8 Become a leader of Al-Qaeda for Balkan.

Speaker 9 What did they want that cell of Al-Qaeda to do in the Balkans?

Speaker 8 So to see if it's going to be threat.

Speaker 8 If it's a threat to U.S. troops, if it's threat to somewhere, if it's threat, because it was planned, we're going to come.
It was a plan. They thought I'm coming here to attack

Speaker 8 with a few guys. For example, I have a today it's uh

Speaker 8 now

Speaker 8 we saying they are our friends like a new leader, but I know somebody who's in a group you have in a picture, he was in prison with me, got uh deported. He would never ever be pro-U.S.
never.

Speaker 8 And I'm I was close to him like my brother, and I know him like if he

Speaker 8 can nuke

Speaker 8 us, he will nuke today.

Speaker 8 But maybe today, they think he's

Speaker 8 now become a good friend. It's a freedom fighter of Syria.
It's not. He's a leader of

Speaker 8 freedom fighters in Syria now, but he was an al-Qaeda member. He become ISIS member.
And I used to come, we're going to come to the point, I used to communicate live from New York City.

Speaker 8 FBI was telling me to communicate with them in 2015, 16, 17.

Speaker 8 Not 17, I'm sorry. 2014, 15, 16.
I was communicating live. I spoke to leader of ISIS from New York City, Abu Omar al-Shishani, live, like the way with you, but through the

Speaker 8 signal.

Speaker 8 I was talking, he begged me, and I told to the FBI, look, tonight, 10 o'clock, I'm going to talk to them. And I give the number, and

Speaker 8 they hear that. They see it.

Speaker 8 We talk in 2015.

Speaker 8 He said, please, brother, come to us.

Speaker 8 We'll give you anything you want. We need you here.
This is ISIS.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 9 They taught you how to make bombs.

Speaker 8 Absolutely. What kind of bombs? With TNT C4, all kind of explosive I can do

Speaker 8 with pressure cooking things, all those, you know, homemade stuff.

Speaker 9 So everything.

Speaker 8 C4.

Speaker 8 I can do anything. You name it, I can do it.
I'm not good in the guns. I'm not good with the weapons.
I'm very good.

Speaker 8 I can tell you, I use, I shot with, you name it, all the U.S. military weapons.
You name it, I shot with every one of them. Snipers, RPG, it's a piece of cake.

Speaker 8 You know, those kind of weapons is nothing to me.

Speaker 8 I'm like that. And I love the guns.
So it's compromising, both things. Training me, and in my nature, I love them.
I cannot leave no guns.

Speaker 9 And so your training was building networks, surveillance, counter-surveillance, how to make deals, how to make bombs, weapons training, communications training.

Speaker 8 Do you want me to give you one specific one time when we were training, when we were with agents in a field, with the CIA? They throw me somewhere in the middle of a crowded community.

Speaker 8 And they want maybe three, four cars of CIA to follow me with their sources if they're going to catch me. You never believe.
Whole day they watch me, they couldn't catch me.

Speaker 8 Whole day they following me. You want me to tell you what I did?

Speaker 8 Second quick

Speaker 8 plan of me I went in a mosque now they know me that day I was with tactical clothes with a 5'11 black so now see I agents they're following me they see me when I came from the truck

Speaker 8 pickup truck they know me Blaring was with a tactical and I'm walking in a mosque now they're waiting for me where I'm gonna go what I did is Sean I went, you know, in a mosque, sometimes you have those galabiyas you can wear so you can be praying clean and the scarf and everything.

Speaker 8 And now, all the agents, this is how they're smart. 10 or 15 of them.
I don't want to, you know, insult them. So now they're all waiting how I'm going to come out, you know, with the black clothes.

Speaker 8 I wear all the white clothes. I took a scarf, you know, everything.

Speaker 8 And I walked out.

Speaker 8 All day I walk away from them. They couldn't find me.
In the evening, when we was a place to meet, they all watching me. They're going to catch me.
They couldn't find me nowhere.

Speaker 8 I'm just knocking to the window,

Speaker 8 and they got stuck.

Speaker 8 Oh man, this is this is the trainer they had.

Speaker 8 And then when I told them, now when I knock the window, I'm knocking them with a black clothes.

Speaker 8 They said, please tell us right away how you come out from that location. And I put the, you know, those clothes, they become like that.
And I put them out inside of my shirt, scarf, and everything.

Speaker 8 I said, this, sir.

Speaker 8 Fucking told me. How you thought you're gonna wear this so quick because I thought you guys gonna watch me with the black clothes

Speaker 8 Did you was our training was you know if you're gonna catch me. Yes, so this is my skills.
So I need to do whatever it's good for you not to catch me This is what I did

Speaker 9 Maybe you should be training them.

Speaker 8 I think so. I tell you too.
I think so.

Speaker 9 I should train them Who would have thought they would have never thought of a change of clothes?

Speaker 8 When we're gonna pull the weapons, I'm gonna come to the point when we pull the weapons.

Speaker 8 They were drunk.

Speaker 8 You couldn't believe we're pulling like this room weapons. Two or three CI agents, they're all drunk.
They couldn't even talk.

Speaker 8 Imagine you make a small mistake, all the city goes in the air.

Speaker 8 And I did all myself with them in my city

Speaker 8 with American agents.

Speaker 8 And then you don't want to come to the immigration and state. Let me sign for him.
Come on, man.

Speaker 9 And so, okay, let's

Speaker 8 back to Al-Qaeda.

Speaker 9 So you meet with Al-Qaeda. That's the plan.
They want you to set up a terrorist cell in the Balkans. They want you to lead it, be a high-ranking Al-Qaeda official.
And so, where do you go from there?

Speaker 8 I go back to the Balkans, update all the CIA, whatever I went through. And then Al-Qaeda thing, I'm recruiting.
And I did,

Speaker 8 I bring a lot of people. A lot lot of people was interested to be Al-Qaeda members.
But I give information to the CIA.

Speaker 9 How would you recruit?

Speaker 8 Oh,

Speaker 8 very easy. Europeans, Balkans, soon as they find out you come from Pakistan, soon as they see one stand, you've been in Pakistan a month and a half, they know right away why you've been there.

Speaker 8 They see money.

Speaker 8 The recruiters, they thought Al-Qaeda financing me, but I had the CIA money.

Speaker 8 The Al-Qaeda thought they helping me in Balkans, people like from the charity

Speaker 8 because it's no paper.

Speaker 8 You know, Al-Qaeda cannot trace me while I'm getting the money.

Speaker 8 In Balkans, they cannot trace me, but CIA knew it. I had all the money from CIA, all the new bills.
Whatever I needed, they was offering me. Anything, here the money, sign here, get the money.

Speaker 9 And so, what was your pitch to recruit?

Speaker 8 To see who who wants to be Al-Qaeda members.

Speaker 9 And how would you broach that? How would you start that conversation?

Speaker 8 Brother,

Speaker 8 I was meeting our Mujahideen's brothers over there, Alhamdulillah. You know, they're doing good, they're interesting to recruit brothers, you know, so we can fight these infidels.

Speaker 8 They're very easy in that. And especially in the young generation, it's like nothing.

Speaker 9 Really?

Speaker 8 No.

Speaker 8 Look at Sean. Today,

Speaker 8 my country is becoming a breeding ground. Even like 90%, it's pro-US country, but two weeks ago, group of seven,

Speaker 8 I know the leader. We're going to come up to talk about the leader.
His leader was

Speaker 8 killed from the drone in Syria. And

Speaker 8 just seven members, they went and killed the best cop in my city who was investigating them. In front of the house, they execute him.
Just two weeks ago, in my country. All al-Qaeda members.

Speaker 8 If I tell you what kind of threats I receive in my first interview before crazy, and I come out to even investigate myself, who threat me, I cannot even believe some people that threaten me.

Speaker 8 If I was next to them, they couldn't even look in my face how they would scare of me. But they send me threat crazy.

Speaker 8 They're going to behave me, they're going to chop my head, they're going to chop my pieces in messages. I don't fear them.
Believe me, I don't fear them. I don't have...

Speaker 8 Look, I don't have no problem to die. I'm not going to live 500 years.
I have a little bit to go. At least my kids know what I'm...
I'm proud. I have no problem.

Speaker 8 I will be a hero to my family if I get killed because I was working for U.S. government.
Because I was protecting my family.

Speaker 8 America is not in a war with Islam. One, it's a lie.
Two, it's with Albanians. America is like God for Albanians.
So I'm proud to die for America. I have no problem.

Speaker 8 My people in Kosovo, they will consider me hero. I don't care for fanatics and radicals, group of people.
I don't care for them. They're minority.
For me, it's important. Majority.

Speaker 8 Majority is my people.

Speaker 9 How many people did you recruit?

Speaker 8 I can easily say maybe 30, 40.

Speaker 9 30, 40 people, what time span?

Speaker 8 Easy, like nothing.

Speaker 8 Like nothing. Like nothing.

Speaker 8 Two years?

Speaker 8 In two years.

Speaker 8 But we're talking

Speaker 8 very fanatics, like sympathizers coming to try to support me, maybe two three hundred

Speaker 8 and what would you tell them the mission is my mission is to open the cells so we can fight America here

Speaker 8 I'm uh

Speaker 8 I was uh

Speaker 8 appointed from al-Qaeda a leader I'm here

Speaker 9 to recruit you guys and who would you specifically target

Speaker 8 those

Speaker 8 you can see how they talk in

Speaker 8 places when there was gathering, when we was in Muslim communities, and I picked the one, the more fanatics, when they say openly, we gotta kill Americans, we gotta do this, we gotta do that.

Speaker 8 Those people I will pick all the time.

Speaker 9 So you would go, you would essentially be friends, take them to the bottom.

Speaker 8 You go to parties,

Speaker 9 you would invite them for food,

Speaker 9 show them

Speaker 9 conversations,

Speaker 8 show the guns all the time. I used to show the guns all the time.
Look at what I have. I'm ready to fight.
They used to see.

Speaker 8 Or sometimes I used to record myself with all kinds of weapons. And I said, brother, you want to see something black and white? Yeah, here it look at the video.
Oh, shit, brother.

Speaker 8 You got all this thing? Yeah, I got everything you want.

Speaker 8 But those are all destroyed.

Speaker 8 But I used to buy from different fanatics.

Speaker 8 There's a lot of guns over there. A lot of all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 9 How would you communicate back to Al-Qaeda from Albania?

Speaker 8 When I go over there back.

Speaker 9 Always when I go back. Always in person.

Speaker 8 They never use phones. I hear

Speaker 8 somebody from here said, how this guy communicated with the phone. Sean, it's a stupid question, man.
It's no such thing you can sit down and make a love story in a terror camp. And it's no phones.

Speaker 8 They change my clothes. They give me own clothes.
So you have no rights.

Speaker 8 You cannot even smell to have some phones with you. But I hear the questions they're writing, oh, how this guy communicated, how he used the phone, they would never use the phone.

Speaker 8 I did not use the phone.

Speaker 8 I did not use the phone. I used to communicate face to face.
I was in the camp.

Speaker 9 How often would you go to the camp and go back?

Speaker 8 Like every,

Speaker 8 let's say if I stay one month in Pakistan or one month in Syria, I go back, stay two, three months in the Balkans, and then I come back.

Speaker 8 Remember, I was in Al-Qaeda camp. in capital of ISIS, where they declared capital, ISIS, Raqqa.
I was there. You have a video life.
And you know how I come to

Speaker 8 record that? I said, look, we need this video. I need to record for propaganda, to act like I'm a visitor, but also to recruit people.
And they let me

Speaker 8 record that.

Speaker 8 In a camp. Not outside, in a camp.
But this is why I'm saying now. This is what I use the language, what the CIA trained me, what I need to learn, and how can I use things.

Speaker 8 So you can tell them, look, we need some video to show people, to recruit who I am. If I go tell them, this is who I am, and I don't don't show nothing, how are they going to believe you?

Speaker 8 So you got to show them. So this is where I used to use skills of the language so to recruit them and to have evidence where I am.
Okay.

Speaker 9 And so how did you, where did you go from Pakistan?

Speaker 8 I used to go back to Balkan, Turkey, fly, Pakistan, Turkey, Turkey, Pristina.

Speaker 8 Stay a couple of months, come back, go to Syria. Go to Jordan, go to Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 9 Why would you go to all these places?

Speaker 8 Or everywhere, fanatics. Everywhere, CIA points somebody.
They used to tell me, we want to know so-and-so, worry thing.

Speaker 8 They used to tell me who they were interested in. They used to show me pictures on them.

Speaker 9 And how would you get yourself in them?

Speaker 8 How would you get yourself in there? Through the reputation. Through the reputation.
Through the imams in my city.

Speaker 8 Imams in my city, everybody knows now I did eight years and eight years and four months in prison. I was deported.
I was separated from family. I cannot see no more my family only if they come back.

Speaker 8 So now they think this guy is going to revenge them. He has a long history of in military, two different wars.
This guy is not going to play. He's going to go revenge Americans.

Speaker 8 So this is the dream for me to do these things.

Speaker 9 So what would the point of you, I guess what I'm asking is what is the point of you going from Pakistan to Syria to Saudi Arabia to Iraq?

Speaker 9 Did you go to Yemen?

Speaker 8 Because I had the sources everywhere. Yemen was my last trip that day.
I was going to meet Al-Awlaki.

Speaker 9 Before we get there, just asking. So you went from Pakistan in the Balkans to Syria was your next stop?

Speaker 8 Yes. Because I used to have fanatics in prison.
And through them, for example, I had a Syrian guy I go meet

Speaker 8 in Syria.

Speaker 9 So these were, this wasn't a connection from the Pakistan cell to the Syrian cell. This was all back from the prison tax that you had made in prison.
From federal prison. So

Speaker 9 you were working all of your contacts from prison to get into all these 100%.

Speaker 9 and now did the Pakistan did the Pakistani

Speaker 9 Al-Qaeda cell know that you were in Syria yes they did yes what did you tell them you were doing in Syria meeting the brothers I used to be in prison they have a family members to Al-Qaeda

Speaker 8 and they had no inclination no because remember only in al-Qaeda can know somebody who controlled al-Qaeda, a couple of men, one, two, three people, where they are the cells and stuff.

Speaker 8 Not all the al-Qaeda members know everybody. It's impossible.
Never. Never happened that.

Speaker 8 So let's say bin Laden, who was running al-Qaeda after him, he used to know, for example, who's who, where,

Speaker 8 but not everybody else. Like we have a colleague Sheikh Muhammad, Bin Al-Shibi,

Speaker 8 Abu Zubaydah, all of them. They didn't know all the members, but somebody who had the control, it can be one or two.
Not all al-Qaeda.

Speaker 9 How did it go in Syria?

Speaker 8 Al-Qaeda?

Speaker 9 Yeah, when you met him.

Speaker 8 Me, how I go? I go met the man who used to be, it's in a picture, he was like my best brother.

Speaker 8 When I saw him with 14 years old, 13 years old, slave, last time in 2015 or 14, I got shocked. He showed me the slave from Yazidi lady, woman, girl.
I have a kid that age. I said, come on, brother.

Speaker 8 It's a sad. Our religion allowed us.
You are 45 years old. What do you need that 13 years old?

Speaker 8 I i hated that come on i have two daughters

Speaker 8 you're gonna take 30 he show me i i i was talking to him life

Speaker 8 you show me the girl 13 years old

Speaker 8 imagine i go back tell my child my friend is 45 years old he's having sex with the 13 years old come on this is a religion absolutely not absolutely not if i can kill i will kill everybody i have no problem

Speaker 8 religion tells you not to bother them religion teach you

Speaker 8 you take hostage you try to trade or do something treat them very good and with dignity not to rape them i know the religion very well

Speaker 8 so they're going off the religion

Speaker 8 it's nothing in islam what al-Qaeda does they're doing nothing

Speaker 8 I tell you I'll give you another example Jordanian pilot got burned live.

Speaker 8 Quran, Sharia, I studied very good. Two years I spent only

Speaker 8 study the Sharia law.

Speaker 8 Forbids to burn human body. Forbids.
Regardless, your enemy, what he does to you. If you believe in God, you have to pray, make a dua, make a prayer to God to change that thing.
But not to go burn.

Speaker 8 So if you imitate the way they say, you

Speaker 8 doing the way your enemy doing to you, then you're becoming just like them. So you're not following the Islam, Quran, and Sunnah.
You're going against complete Islam. So this is what they're doing.

Speaker 9 You were inside Al-Qaeda training camps

Speaker 8 three or four times.

Speaker 9 What kind of training are they doing? What was that

Speaker 8 experience? Small weapons. Like, for example, one time I remember we went

Speaker 8 in one of the places, like three, four hours driving from Karachi.

Speaker 8 It was like very old,

Speaker 8 those old houses, ugly garbage. We were sleeping 15, 20 of us in the same place, like a sardine stinking garbage.
You know,

Speaker 8 and they were shooting with RPGA case, you know,

Speaker 8 running, showing some skills, target, all these things.

Speaker 9 Go over the conversations like.

Speaker 8 How to kill Americans? How to fight infidel.

Speaker 8 every word to fight infidel

Speaker 8 how to kill the infidel.

Speaker 9 What would you report back to the CIA?

Speaker 8 The way I was seeing that

Speaker 8 everything, the way they're telling me, that's how I, the CIA knew Damos CIA,

Speaker 8 so I was telling they want to kill infidel.

Speaker 9 What specific information did they want out of the camps?

Speaker 8 Specific, for example,

Speaker 8 when I met this leader who was wanted,

Speaker 8 they asked me I was going to meet with him. They told me, you're not going to meet because maybe it's suspicious.
You are a spy.

Speaker 8 Sean, he was wanted and I went and meet him. And I went in a court against him, in court, U.S.
federal court, in case if he gets arrested, I can be witness against him. I went and meet with him.

Speaker 8 He couldn't believe when he saw me like that with a beard.

Speaker 8 He hugged me. Now he told tells me you're my brother.
Now you can fight with us.

Speaker 8 CIA didn't believe. Another thing,

Speaker 8 I want to say it. I think you have this passport or different one.
Sean, I was in Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 8 You know, when you're in Saudi Arabia, you cannot get visa to go to Pakistan.

Speaker 8 You have to be a resident of Saudi Arabia or citizen. When I say to CIA, they invite, they calling me from Pakistan

Speaker 8 to go to Pakistan, from Saudi Arabia it's CIA said this trying to scam me maybe you're dealing with the low-level al-Qaeda or sympathizers it's impossible you to get a visa in Saudi Arabia to go Pakistan Sean I got the proof I got the visa in a Pakistani embassy in Jeddah CIA will never believe when I update them I send screenshot they thought it's a fake I took a flight from Saudi Arabia straight to Pakistan they didn't believe it I said sir I'm in Pakistan this is my passport when I came back I went trip back to back, Saudi and Pakistan.

Speaker 8 Then from Pakistan, when I went back to Balkans, when I showed documents, they freaked out. How does Pakistani intelligence felt? Two days in a row, I was interrogated from

Speaker 8 ISI, from Pakistani intelligence, in the embassy. Two days, all day.
They thought, or I'm a spy or maybe I'm Al-Qaeda member. I said, look, I'm here for business.

Speaker 8 I'm trying to open a leather factory business. I want to bring leather from Pakistan to Balkans.
It's a BS.

Speaker 8 And I got the visa and I went in Al-Qaeda.

Speaker 8 See, I didn't believe. Even when I said how it's possible, I said, sir,

Speaker 8 we got to communicate diplomatically with them how they give visa like that. And I got it, and I can prove it to you.

Speaker 8 I went

Speaker 8 in Saudi Arabia. I met with

Speaker 8 Abu Saif.

Speaker 8 He was nine years in prison

Speaker 8 for Al-Qaeda, in Saudi prison. He was fighting with Bin Laden.
He was a die-hard mentor of Bin Laden. I met with him in his house.

Speaker 8 CIA said, How you got the source? Sir, I'm here with Abu Saif.

Speaker 8 I'm mentioning his name. He was eight years in Saudi prison.

Speaker 8 See, I don't believe I was his guest.

Speaker 9 When did you start smuggling weapons?

Speaker 8 In from 2000, right away after

Speaker 8 I was deported.

Speaker 8 And so, how would that work?

Speaker 9 So, you're building because you didn't mention that, and so I thought maybe it came later.

Speaker 9 You were smuggling weapons from all these different terrorist organizations and getting them into CIA's hands to destroy them, correct? Yes, sir.

Speaker 9 And so, was that part of the initial recruitment, or was the initial recruitment just to

Speaker 8 no? After I got recruited, they see how much I'm having skills. I'm capable to do everything.

Speaker 8 Like, there was,

Speaker 8 look, when we did one mission, I don't know if I give it to you,

Speaker 8 there was seven agents, CI agents and me. When we did one,

Speaker 8 we took the weapons and I asked, I said, please, I want to not to make me feel good. I want to tell me how I did this job with this weapon.

Speaker 8 One of the CI agents said, I would trust my mother to be with you the way you did the job. I will never be able to do it.
I don't have that kind of heart because I will be scared.

Speaker 8 If I make a mistake, I will kill myself. And I did that.

Speaker 8 That's how they spread me everywhere. They want me now everywhere to be.

Speaker 8 And like I said, I mentioned, I thought like I'm better than James Bond.

Speaker 8 I was doing so good, I didn't even believe myself. But you know what is the good part?

Speaker 8 Sean, when you know you have a support from a powerful agency, you have more will to do things.

Speaker 8 Because you don't think you can get caught and put in prison. You're free to do things, like you can read the instruction.
I'm free to do anything just not to kill Americans or diplomatic or anybody.

Speaker 8 If I have to shoot, shoot in the air. Don't aim to do.
If you get caught up with U.S. troops, you surrender yourself.

Speaker 8 Pretend you're sick or something, but don't shoot. This is how

Speaker 8 I was instructed. and this is, I did it.
Whatever they told me, I did it the way they told me.

Speaker 9 What do you think helped you the most in your mindset doing this?

Speaker 8 Mr. Devin, Mr.

Speaker 9 Devin, yeah, the best agent,

Speaker 8 star.

Speaker 8 I can tell you, he can be running the CIA with no problem.

Speaker 8 I guess the worst one, Chris.

Speaker 9 Chris, why was he the worst?

Speaker 8 The day when I got shot,

Speaker 8 I swear to God,

Speaker 8 if he was aiming to Chris, I would jump in a gun, me to get killed, not the CIA agent.

Speaker 8 That's how I was loyal. I swear to God.
Never forget that.

Speaker 8 He left me like a dog.

Speaker 9 He was there.

Speaker 8 Yeah, he left. Iran.
When they come and rescue me, I don't see him never no more.

Speaker 8 And he tell the other agents, tell him you a new own from today.

Speaker 8 Bullet wound everywhere I couldn't even drive the car let's talk about that experience

Speaker 9 when you got assassinated what was going on that day I'm going to get a

Speaker 9 or when they attempted to assassinate you let me let me correct before that

Speaker 8 in before March it was a February we're supposed to have a meeting we were planning to go in Yemen in November of 2009 I received that threat in my phone November of 2009 and I sended the phone to Chris I said I received this message he said don't worry sometimes somebody they try to bluff and threat but it's nothing serious I said okay

Speaker 8 I was preparing my territory to go to meet with Ali Abu Laki February he said

Speaker 8 Abu in a communication never mentioned my name always Abu Sal Abu, can we change meeting of February for March, 31st,

Speaker 8 2010, 2 o'clock? I said, no problem. Please bring your GPS coordination, the passport.
I had one extra passport from them and

Speaker 8 something

Speaker 8 I tracked somewhere from the weapons. I said, okay, no problem.
And bring a two-picture

Speaker 8 passport picture size of yourself. I said, okay.

Speaker 8 I go like a route usual. I'm parking my car under the garage.
Where is the CIA safe house? Like, super, super careful, like, very

Speaker 8 good not to trace me i left the house 6 30 7 o'clock a.m changing two different cities

Speaker 8 sitting there sitting here so to see if ever somebody follow me nobody i go to the garage two floors under so if it's any tracing device so not to track that so i park my car deep to ground down i go I'm entering the safe house.

Speaker 8 I see old man car in the grass.

Speaker 8 And I greet him. He has the white coffee.
I say that, you know, salamu alaikum alaikum salaam.

Speaker 8 No problem, it's carrying the flowers. Big building in a penthouse was a CIA safe house.
The way you see me stretching, in a stretcher taken out, I see two guys coming down,

Speaker 8 very calm, me. I'm between.

Speaker 8 I open the door, enter,

Speaker 8 and now I see they got separated,

Speaker 8 but I never thought, I thought maybe the Macedonians entering, and they pulled the gun, shot me four times, not once.

Speaker 8 The first bullet went through my leg, and I collapsed, pretending like because

Speaker 8 they were not professional shooters, they're not somebody who is trained. You know, I can see, you know, not having skills in that.

Speaker 8 And he pulled the gun right to my head, jammed the gun. I hear click once, twice, three times.

Speaker 8 All he said, ooh,

Speaker 8 the cron killed me.

Speaker 8 And I'm not moving because

Speaker 8 when I see the way I saw them, I thought they are like not the guys they have experience, like myself, for example. I can control myself in a shooting and stuff like that.

Speaker 8 I'm very calm, not, you know,

Speaker 8 I didn't move. I saw blood everywhere.
I said, let them go out.

Speaker 8 I was thinking,

Speaker 8 let me go in a basement because I don't want to bring blood. Maybe they're coming back.

Speaker 8 And if I go in a basement, they will come behind me. If I go in the fourth floor, maybe they come, they trace me, and they kill him and me.
It's a moment. I said to myself, you know what?

Speaker 8 I'm going to die.

Speaker 8 I'm not going to betray them. I don't want to think CIA, oh, he was a double agent, he killed our agent.
I stayed for a moment, blood was not stopping. I pulled myself quick,

Speaker 8 I couldn't move much, I started bleeding a lot. Like, I thought I got a van here, but I couldn't even look my leg because the bullet went through, so I didn't know where I got shot.

Speaker 8 I see bleeding here, bleeding in the back. Like, it's a quick moment.
And I went to the fourth floor.

Speaker 8 We used to have a court: If you see a newspaper in a floor in a Macedonian riding, so that's me, Chris is inside. So I don't have to put the key so neighbors to hear I'm opening the door.

Speaker 8 And I see Chris inside. And he said, what happened? I said, I got shot.
He said, who did it? I said, I don't know. It's two people.

Speaker 8 I'm going there.

Speaker 8 He pulled his belt. He pulled my belt.
He tied it up.

Speaker 8 I stopped bleeding. And I see he's calling for backup for, you know,

Speaker 8 to help us.

Speaker 8 And he's talking, continue. Our man is down.
Our man is down. I need help.
Our man is down. And I can hear that.
He had this different phone using with them, saying, we are in a way. We are in a way.

Speaker 8 We're going to rescue you. Just, you know, careful control situation.

Speaker 8 Bleeding. And I started losing the control.
Then the, I guess, neighbor saw the blood. The local police came over there.
And the secret police came.

Speaker 8 They almost clashed with each other, local police and secret police secret police supposed to be our friends from macedonia so now chris is talking to them it's our man is down but he's not opening the door

Speaker 8 and all i see when they open the door i see ak-47 right in my head

Speaker 8 now i said

Speaker 8 they're gonna kill me because they see me with a bear now he's a he's a white clean american I'm with a bear. Now they're going to think maybe I'm trying to kill him.
You know,

Speaker 8 it's a 10-15 people, two different groups of agency. It's like,

Speaker 8 and I lost the control. Chris gone.
They took me with a stretcher. They sent me

Speaker 8 one day or two days in one hospital.

Speaker 8 And that moment when they came after two days,

Speaker 8 they gave me a stash of money. I don't need the money.
They said, from today, you're in your arm

Speaker 8 from hospital.

Speaker 9 That was it. Yeah, that's the worst part

Speaker 9 How did you get burned?

Speaker 8 It's a good question million dollar question

Speaker 8 Sorry

Speaker 8 I've been through everything in my life

Speaker 8 I may repeat that many times today. I don't have no problem to die but to be betrayed like that Come on.
Central intelligence agency, the strongest agency in the world.

Speaker 8 You rush into judgment. You didn't investigate anything.

Speaker 8 Cameras everywhere. Sean, I won't after one week.
Sorry.

Speaker 9 Want to take a break? Yeah, a few minutes. Let's take a break.

Speaker 8 All right, Blarum.

Speaker 9 We're at the safe house. You get shot.

Speaker 9 I can tell you're very disappointed at how the agency treated you after that and abandoned you.

Speaker 9 We asked,

Speaker 9 How do you think you got compromised?

Speaker 9 I mean, I'll bet that's gone through your head day after day after day.

Speaker 9 How do you think you got compromised

Speaker 8 the way i looked at

Speaker 8 one day they did a passport for me

Speaker 8 and the passport they did it

Speaker 8 it was real my name

Speaker 8 but i was not from that country

Speaker 8 the people who did the passport

Speaker 8 they stopped me one time in a border for four or five hours investigating me. Me, I was with three or four fanatics.
One of them was arrested for terrorism in the border.

Speaker 8 Same people who came out to help us that day when I got shot, same one was there.

Speaker 8 Sean, you know how Balkans function?

Speaker 8 Regardless, how friend can be over there with you, they still have like a family. Like me, I have some trusted person.

Speaker 8 I tell, look at,

Speaker 8 I know this.

Speaker 8 So I strongly believe agent make a mistake, leaked me, my name,

Speaker 8 and they leaked the information to the fanatics.

Speaker 8 This is what happened. So now for him, not to be blamed,

Speaker 8 I don't know what he put in my jacket behind to the CIA.

Speaker 8 He can say anything, I don't know. And CIA, they never asked me.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 he couldn't say anything.

Speaker 8 But they never give me a give a chance to hear my voice like today.

Speaker 8 I did nothing wrong.

Speaker 8 If I have to start again,

Speaker 8 I will die for this country.

Speaker 8 If I was that day, the guy was trying to shoot Chris, I swear to God, I will put myself in front and get killed. Never betrayed.

Speaker 8 Doesn't matter this job is a dangerous job.

Speaker 8 I'm very proud of what I did. I did for my kids and I did for U.S.

Speaker 8 And I say that early, all my family is Americans.

Speaker 8 Albanians has nothing to do with terrorism.

Speaker 9 At what point did Chris leave?

Speaker 8 That day.

Speaker 9 Did he leave when the police showed up?

Speaker 8 Yeah, as soon as they took him, yes. Chris left that moment when the police, two groups of police came, one supposed to be our friends, because we used to have a code.

Speaker 8 If it's a friend of Chris, that means they are our friends. So when they walk in that day,

Speaker 8 it was our friend supposed to be and after all this I investigate I did research myself

Speaker 8 Sean somebody who was trying to help me

Speaker 8 March 31st he got killed May 9

Speaker 8 after a month and a half him and three four friends maybe he became victim because of me he was trying to help me he got assassinated if you see the van you will never believe how they kill him because he was trying to help me to find out who tried to kill me.

Speaker 9 How did they kill him?

Speaker 8 In a minivan, they execute him.

Speaker 8 Four guys, not one, all four of them. All four, my friends

Speaker 8 in Macedonia.

Speaker 8 If you see the van, you will think there was fire 10,000 bullets in that van.

Speaker 8 He was trying to help me to find out who tried to kill me.

Speaker 8 Somebody's covering up somewhere.

Speaker 8 Sean, I went

Speaker 8 after six days, April 7, my birthday, it's April late, one day before my birthday, at U.S. Embassy, where I was recruited.

Speaker 8 I was with a can. I couldn't even walk.

Speaker 8 And I parked the car right in front of the embassy so they can see it.

Speaker 8 I entered the embassy. Somebody came out to talk to me.
They told me in embassy, you cannot drive no more that car

Speaker 8 from the agency, from the CIA

Speaker 8 don't drive no more don't come here no more don't come to Macedonia you are in your loan

Speaker 8 and I tell them simple how come it's a cameras in front of the safe house everywhere how come you guys didn't find out who did that I don't know sir I'm just passing a message when I came from the embassy Sean in a Macedonian border I was threatened from Macedonians agents

Speaker 8 cursed me badly don't ever

Speaker 8 come in our country this that I'm a friend of Chris is telling me at the border and I tell him straight up F you and him if you want to kill me kill me

Speaker 8 so something is behind covered so what is something for I will advise in this

Speaker 8 interview

Speaker 8 intelligence agency US intelligence agency is the best but they need to investigate the source sometimes

Speaker 8 it's nobody perfect I'm not perfect I did make mistakes. I was not a perfect spy.
But trust me, I was a diamond.

Speaker 8 I operated everywhere. I was never exposed, never was nobody suspicious in me.
I did very good, but I was not perfect. But agent maybe make a mistake.
Why you don't question him?

Speaker 8 Why you want to lose the source? Sean, I can say to you, This is, I want you, people to hear that. Believe me, I'm better than 100 CI agents.

Speaker 8 I was better than 100 CI agents. I was.

Speaker 8 CI agents, they can do job. Don't take me wrong, they are intelligent.
They have money, they have sources, everything. But I was inside.
CI agent couldn't go where I went.

Speaker 8 CIA agent couldn't sleep

Speaker 8 between al-Qaeda members. I slept with them, with 15 of them.
I was in Raqqa sleeping with 15, 20 of them. Imagine one of them just smell I'm a spy.
They will

Speaker 8 burn me life but I did that but see agent would not do that so this kind of heart I had so if you have a man like that why you want to lose him

Speaker 8 I hope they listen and they correct the mistakes they always have a source if they have a spy let's see what he said

Speaker 8 Maybe the agents make a mistake. We don't need to rush to judgment and just ban him.

Speaker 8 Let's help him so to find the truth. What's behind? Who's behind?

Speaker 9 I mean, unfortunately, that's just kind of how it works. You know, I mean, they recruited Assad to do the dirty work.
I mean, it's in the outline, throwaway spy. Yes.
And

Speaker 9 that's just how it that's just how it works.

Speaker 8 But the best will be to make a changes.

Speaker 8 You want me to advise you one thing what U.S.

Speaker 8 complete U.S. agency government did with my help, one thing good.

Speaker 8 And I know I don't care, they don't want to honor that. Sean, here used to be very easy to make a US passport.

Speaker 8 I instruct them how it's easy.

Speaker 8 And I'm not saying 100% just my help,

Speaker 8 but believe me, US passport rules was changed because of me. I teach them how to change because there was a piece of cake to make a US passport.
A piece of cake,

Speaker 8 two days, you can make it, it's not you, and you can get US passport. United States changed that

Speaker 8 because my help.

Speaker 8 I used to,

Speaker 8 I told them who doing that from inside job, how they doing. A lot of people got the passport.
Even terrorists can get that. And me, I blame school, I teach in that.
But they never say that.

Speaker 8 They always, that moment said, you did a very good job, but after who cares?

Speaker 8 I did a lot of things good,

Speaker 8 but

Speaker 8 they don't care. That's what you say.
That's how agency works. If they have that, they ban you.
This is how they never come to admit or accept.

Speaker 8 I was in touch with George Tennon two times from federal prison. Remember, I'm mentioning that

Speaker 8 with George Tennons twice in 2003 and 4, two times with the head of CIA, from federal prison. So if I was like that person

Speaker 8 changing your agency, I don't need to know that, but have somebody to investigate that, you know, make agency stronger. We need sources.

Speaker 9 It probably has more to do with blowing their own cover than

Speaker 9 assets.

Speaker 9 Because once your cover is blown, they don't want the rest of their

Speaker 9 staff, their employees burned so they can continue on doing work. But so in the hospital, you said they came to you in the hospital with a stack of money.

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 9 And what was that conversation like?

Speaker 8 The conversation was: we're going to escort you to one of the borders nighttime. They asked me to escort me to the Albanian border.
I said no. They escorted me to Kosovo border.

Speaker 8 They gave me the money. They said, you have to be in your own.
Don't ask to speak with nobody from U.S. agency.
You have to be safe.

Speaker 8 Then, when I went after six days or seven, April 7, they told me to get

Speaker 8 away that car. I found two tracking devices in my car at a mechanic shop.

Speaker 8 Under the car, two tracking devices in that car, CIA purchased for me.

Speaker 9 And that's the car that they said don't drive anywhere? Yes.

Speaker 9 What point did they tell you, have a nice life, don't go high profile?

Speaker 8 After my immigration case finished in 2022.

Speaker 9 So they were in contact with you again after the immunity.

Speaker 8 Private, no name.

Speaker 8 Friend of Chris.

Speaker 9 That's what they said. This is a friend of Chris? Yeah.

Speaker 8 Well, Sean, you see how I'm sitting with you. Believe it or not, I used to get the information from inside CIA in this few years from the source who's very close to the CIA.
American.

Speaker 8 American, not Albanian, American, who's very close to CIA.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 the source told me what they're even saying about me.

Speaker 9 What were they saying?

Speaker 8 It's crazy. I don't want to even, I feel bad to say it.
Why?

Speaker 8 Because like they use you, they use you and you're nothing. Like, I don't want people to be scared to work for the agency after this.
I don't want to use those things.

Speaker 8 They want to make you look so bad. And the source telling me, source is very close to CIA every day with them.

Speaker 8 Source will run Iraq situation war.

Speaker 8 So they don't think I came out to get to somebody who I can get things.

Speaker 8 Person who was

Speaker 8 planning in Iraq side,

Speaker 8 in Iraq war, three, four years.

Speaker 8 And this is what they're saying about you.

Speaker 8 I said, why?

Speaker 8 Sean, if somebody wants me to be a bad person, maybe, I believe Seana too.

Speaker 8 They want to have a business more work, so maybe this guy go crazy. No, Sean.

Speaker 8 I'm proud to be American.

Speaker 8 Maybe somebody has

Speaker 8 crazy ideas. What were they saying about you?

Speaker 8 If I say it, it's no good people to hear that.

Speaker 9 Did they paint you to be a double asset?

Speaker 8 No, never.

Speaker 8 Never double asset. Like, who can do that job where he di it's it's it's bad to say it in the

Speaker 8 air. I don't wanna, you know, because people are gonna think then, hey, I would never do this job.
If If they say it about him like that,

Speaker 8 they're going to say that about me, same thing.

Speaker 9 So they completely washed their hands of you.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And then, in one way or another, painted you out to be bad.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 And then came back after,

Speaker 8 after 2012, 13, 14, they still want to communicate with me. They called my lawyer in New York City.

Speaker 8 He's in U.S. soil.
I don't know how to,

Speaker 8 we can take him from U.S. soil.
And

Speaker 8 I told my lawyer, tell them, you don't have to take me. You tell me where you want me to meet, I can come and meet.

Speaker 8 I don't need your help. You never helped me to take me somewhere.
I came my way.

Speaker 8 We're talking after I got burned, after I got shot.

Speaker 9 Why did they contact your lawyer? What did they want?

Speaker 8 Because I think there was scare something.

Speaker 8 When there was a Belgian bombing,

Speaker 8 they thought I knew it some of those guys

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 8 Syria I prioritized the ISIS they knew what I was in Syria I knew it in from 2008 9 they was bringing weapons from Iraq Shan I was there I was witnessing trucks full of the weapons

Speaker 8 this is what's going to be but I never knew the name ISIS because still was Al-Qaeda. Then they changed to Jabbat al-Nusra, Dawla Islamiyah.
Then they changed to ISIS. But the same people.

Speaker 8 It's not, they didn't go away. It's the same people.
Al-Qaeda changed the name. It's the same fanatics.
It's never different. I had a very strong source inside of the Syria.

Speaker 8 I spent three, four months in Syria. And they found out maybe it's a plan in U.S.
soil. I was communicating with them.

Speaker 8 Believe it or not, somebody got

Speaker 8 killed with a drone just because of my health from New York.

Speaker 8 They tell me to talk to him. And I talk.
And they never say

Speaker 8 because of me they kill him. But after two days I found out he's killed.
But he was talking to me in a phone in New York, from Syria.

Speaker 8 But they never, we talk in 2015. If I was bad like that,

Speaker 8 why are you talking to me then?

Speaker 9 So what's interesting is earlier you were saying that all the communication goes through couriers, person to person, face to face, that's it. Yes.

Speaker 9 And now we're talking about you're on a phone call with one of the top guys in Syria who gets killed in a drone strike. Yes.
And so when did that switch? When did they switch from

Speaker 8 ISIS uprise?

Speaker 8 They was using Telegram system. They thought they cannot trace nothing.
It's Russian control. So they was talking very free.

Speaker 8 Just now when ISIS came out

Speaker 8 in Telegram. It's that app, Telegram from Russia.
So they was using that and signal, two of them, and signal too. So we was communicating with them through those two things.

Speaker 8 It was a time I told them what time I'm going to talk to them from here, from New York.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 they was

Speaker 8 listening to the conversation. Sean, viewers are going to want to know if it's true or not.
Sean, if I communicate with the terrorists overseas from US soil, you end up in

Speaker 8 US penitentiary. You get arrested in two minutes.
So this is me. I was communicating from U.S.
soil with terrorists. If I was not CIA source,

Speaker 8 I couldn't get why I didn't get arrested. If I'm lying, you know, because people, look,

Speaker 8 you have sick people everywhere. They come like one in Denmark, he worked for CIA a little bit for a couple of months, and lunatic.

Speaker 8 Now, I hear this drinking and stuff. He was not Muslim.
He was converted in Islam in a prison. But I was not like that.

Speaker 8 I was a strongly skilled person.

Speaker 8 Are they aware?

Speaker 9 Do you think that you're coming on the show?

Speaker 8 I don't think so. Are they aware? No, maybe.
Maybe these two, three days

Speaker 8 they listen to my conversation, but if they're gonna like it, I'm 100% they're gonna hate it. I'm 100% they're gonna blame in you.
Why this guy bring this source here now

Speaker 8 who knows people how they're gonna think for us, how it's gonna be our image?

Speaker 9 Are they aware of the documentary?

Speaker 8 Oh, yes.

Speaker 8 That's what they told me, yes. They told me, you know, stay calm with your life.
You know, you don't need to expose yourself. In that two-minute conversation, that's what they told me.

Speaker 8 But I said, I don't need advice. I don't have no problem to die.
I want people to know what I did. I'm not a dirt person.
I'm not garbage the way you think. I'm a normal human being.

Speaker 8 I'm a father of three beautiful kids. I go on live with normal life.

Speaker 9 What did they say about the documentary?

Speaker 8 They didn't say nothing. I didn't steal here after nothing.

Speaker 9 Did you tell them you're doing it?

Speaker 8 Oh, yes. Yes.

Speaker 9 And they didn't say anything?

Speaker 8 no they didn't say anything

Speaker 8 i told them i'm gonna put the book and it's gonna be six episode movie also

Speaker 8 after the documentary i'm planning to put the six episode movie

Speaker 9 and i know they do still have a contact there

Speaker 8 i don't contact them they contact me

Speaker 8 i don't contact them

Speaker 8 you know we missed

Speaker 8 sean when i got shot it was one more mistake in my side you see I say it. I have no problem to admit my mistake.
I had a secret number.

Speaker 8 If I'm in a danger situation, I have to call that number at the CIA, which is Washington. It's free.
I can call from everywhere, only if it's a danger situation in my life.

Speaker 8 Like if it stresses something, I can call that number so they can help me.

Speaker 8 When I didn't call my wife, because I told her, if I don't call 48 to 72 hours, you need to call this number.

Speaker 8 And she called them. They answered, What is the message related? This is

Speaker 8 a message from Abu.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 what is the message I can take? She said, my husband disappeared.

Speaker 8 And the phone after that is disconnected. And she tried to call again.
No more ring in that phone. That's the mistake I make in this.

Speaker 8 All these two years or 10 years working with the U.S. intelligence agency and one time with the weapons

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 8 the way they told me to do the weapons I guess I guess they thought I was not capable to do in professional way not to be dangerous I did it good and

Speaker 8 we changed the spot where we're gonna get the weapon stash it was a crazy bombs landmines and everything

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 8 Chris was with crew with two three cars with the CIA and I changed the spot. He came in my city.
I told him not in my city because everybody knows in my city, know me.

Speaker 8 God forbid one human see me with this bear and six, seven people, Americans with clean shave, I will be suspicious right away. So I did changes myself.
I switched the place.

Speaker 8 I told him not in that place, but through the communication, not in a plan. Like last minute.
And he got angry in that.

Speaker 8 I said, I I gotta save my, I gotta be safe. I don't want to expose me, and you're gonna tell me F yourself and you in your own

Speaker 8 alone.

Speaker 8 I changed that spot, I did the job, excellent. All I did that mistake to change the job, and my wife called in the CIA.
Two mistakes I did with CIA. The rest, never anything.

Speaker 8 I was perfectly clear in time. Whatever I was instructed to do, I went 100%

Speaker 8 according to the instruction from the CIA.

Speaker 9 where would you procure the weapons

Speaker 9 I used to have these come were these coming from Syria Pakistan Saudi were they weapons in Balkans they were all coming in

Speaker 8 Balkans all in Balkans but the uranium it was coming from for Russia through the Germany we did investigate

Speaker 8 and it was a possible they want to build the dirty bomb fanatics they want to sell it to me knowing it's going in al-Qaeda's hand there was a lot of money involved. And we were investigating that.

Speaker 8 One of those two brothers got shot. We not mentioned the name because still they investigating.
Still it's under, you know, I don't know what was going on with government, but they still are there.

Speaker 8 One of them got shot. I guess because this issue.
And but

Speaker 8 his life.

Speaker 8 They tried to assassinate him. One of those two brothers.

Speaker 8 This is the issue. I was involved directly with them.

Speaker 8 We were trying to put hands in that because they thought it's a coming, it was a missing nuclear head from the former from that time, Ukraine one, they gave up to the Russians.

Speaker 8 So that it is still saying it's a missing,

Speaker 8 so they thought maybe that's the part it's coming, and it's coming in Al-Qaeda's hand.

Speaker 9 So the Russians were selling Al-Qaeda uranium? Yes. What year was this?

Speaker 8 It was in 2009, 8 or 9. You can look in the communication.
It's clearly over there.

Speaker 8 And you were involved in that? I was 100% involved.

Speaker 9 How did that, how did you get connected to the Russians?

Speaker 8 To the fanatics. Through the fanatics.

Speaker 8 They bring troops from Germany to Italy, from Italy to Albania.

Speaker 9 And so why were the Russians

Speaker 9 involved at all?

Speaker 8 I have no idea. It's a good question.
If I know, I will say it.

Speaker 9 How easy is it to get uranium in Russia?

Speaker 8 It's very hard

Speaker 8 because you need a lot of skills. You have to be real professional in that part to deal with that.

Speaker 9 Seems like it would have to be somebody inside the government. Yes.

Speaker 8 100%.

Speaker 9 Did they get it to him?

Speaker 8 I have no idea more. I know he was there because we were going to purchase.

Speaker 8 CIA was telling me, hold on, we're going to have an expert to do this. You cannot deal yourself.

Speaker 8 So if we get that,

Speaker 8 you're going to be disappeared. You're not going to be able no more to work.
So we have to have our men to deal with that. You just have to keep them hold.
You're buying that.

Speaker 9 How much uranium?

Speaker 8 They were saying it can easily kill half a million.

Speaker 9 How many bombs would this go in?

Speaker 8 Three or four.

Speaker 9 And they would have Al-Qaeda smuggle it into the U.S. Yeah.
Do you think that happened?

Speaker 8 Look.

Speaker 8 If it's that

Speaker 8 plan, why didn't happen until now? And again,

Speaker 8 terrorists need to get lucky one time.

Speaker 8 Not all the time, once.

Speaker 8 They have a patient. Sean, those people are not a joke.

Speaker 8 Not everyone.

Speaker 8 But the brains are really smart.

Speaker 8 That's why they want me in.

Speaker 8 After I got shot in 2010, they begged me in 2014 to go back

Speaker 8 to be

Speaker 8 leader after I got shot.

Speaker 8 And the best source I had, he knew what I got shot, but he never thought I got shot because I was a spy.

Speaker 8 He thought maybe our secret agents they want to assassinate me so I'm not a fanatic, so I cannot attack US.

Speaker 8 So maybe it's inside job from the government of my country

Speaker 8 or neighbors,

Speaker 8 Serbia or Macedonia.

Speaker 8 So they try to

Speaker 8 assassinate me so I don't do something bad.

Speaker 9 When's the last time you had contact with them?

Speaker 8 With US?

Speaker 9 With the agency?

Speaker 8 2022.

Speaker 9 That's the last time?

Speaker 8 Three years ago.

Speaker 8 January 2022.

Speaker 8 6 or 7 January. Two minutes.

Speaker 9 Because I'll tell you what's going through my mind.

Speaker 9 What if they got in contact with you to tell me that in this show?

Speaker 8 Ah, no, never.

Speaker 9 To drive a narrative.

Speaker 8 Never.

Speaker 8 Never, ever.

Speaker 8 I never planned to come in your show.

Speaker 8 I was watching your show, the best show.

Speaker 8 Seeing you passed, reading your CV.

Speaker 8 They asked me to give, look, I mentioned New York Times. It's a crazy interview.

Speaker 8 Headline, New York Times. Number one newspaper.

Speaker 8 But to come here,

Speaker 8 I don't believe it. But

Speaker 8 if they're going to like it,

Speaker 8 I don't think so.

Speaker 9 Well, there's a lot of higher-ups that want us to war.

Speaker 9 We both know that.

Speaker 8 I know very well, and you know very well. Sean,

Speaker 8 if it's like that,

Speaker 8 you saw the story, you see me.

Speaker 8 I don't hide what I can do.

Speaker 8 I don't tell

Speaker 8 people in the street, I don't tell family members, but this is who I am.

Speaker 8 So why you don't

Speaker 8 work with him to keep him quiet? It's very easy. You are the strongest agency in the world.
You don't need to come and bow down and say, I'm sorry. No, absolutely.

Speaker 8 Just let him stay calm with your family. Here is your

Speaker 8 green card, U.S. passport.
Stay calm. Enjoy.
They give informer, Sean. They give a lady who was clean in my room.
Look at this. I want you to...
See this. Listen.
They give a lady with four kids.

Speaker 8 They bring her from over there here

Speaker 8 for nothing. And you not giving me, she's a piece of garbage.

Speaker 8 Loser lady. She was deported from European countries, involved in the crimes.
And they bring her because she was cleaning my room. She told them, oh, he has a lot of slash weapons.

Speaker 8 And you want me to, funny thing, joke? When the immigration prosecutor asked me, do you know? Do anybody has you papers ever? Guess what? I left envelope with some papers.

Speaker 8 This lady, to touch it, she did it, and she gave to the immigration that information.

Speaker 8 Just me and you, we know this bar, correct? Right now.

Speaker 8 If somebody else asks us from outside, you or me told them. So that lady told the immigration, that lady told the CIA, oh, Bledim has a weapons.

Speaker 8 That lady was cleaning the room, my house. She told me how you got shot.
I said, I got shot accidentally because I don't wanna, it's a family, I don't wanna to be scared, kids, because gossip.

Speaker 8 No, I said, I was playing with a gun, I got shot here.

Speaker 8 She told CIA the lie. He got shot himself.
I never got shot myself because CIA helped me. Why CIA didn't go back and say, hey, why are you lying? Somebody tried to kill him.

Speaker 8 You telling us he told you he got shot himself?

Speaker 8 Do you understand? It makes sense to you.

Speaker 8 She tells them, oh, he told me he got shot himself accidentally with his gun. He likes gun.

Speaker 8 He shot accidentally himself. I don't shoot with left.
I shoot I'm a rider. I'm not a lefter.

Speaker 8 I had no gun. You know, another thing we missed, when I was in hospital,

Speaker 8 they came,

Speaker 8 local police, to see if I have a gunpower in my hands. They did that wrapping things with aluminium thing.
They do it. If I was engaged with shooting, I was not engaged in shooting, I had no guns.

Speaker 8 I never crossed, I crossed the border one time trying to show samples with uranium

Speaker 8 to the CIA, and they told me, Please don't ever do that.

Speaker 8 It's very dangerous.

Speaker 8 And then, one time there was something

Speaker 8 issue with some kind of size of ammunition we found, and I took it. I took it because I'm brave, I'm not scared.
It's not like people can say, Is it sick? No, it's not sick.

Speaker 8 I have no problem to deal with the weapons. It's like somebody do draw the flag.
I'm good with the weapons. If you're a good drawer with the flag, I'm good with the weapons.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 this is how I am. And you taking a BS from somebody from nowhere, from a source who you had a decade working for you.
Decade. I spent from 91 to 2010, nine years.

Speaker 8 Plus, Plus after that, communicating.

Speaker 8 Sean,

Speaker 8 you can see

Speaker 8 you're super intelligent. Look at who's John Mueller.
John Mueller requested to meet with me. I met with John Mueller, head of counter-terrorism unit.

Speaker 8 Not the Asian, head of counter-terrorism, who met Bin Laden. John Mueller met Bin Laden 25 years ago.
I met with him. He requested to meet and I went and see him.

Speaker 8 And I was, after I came from Canada, after I got shot in 2015, and two, three different times I met with CIA and FBI in my lawyer's office. Not once.

Speaker 8 So if I'm bad like that, so why you want to meet with me? If I'm no good, so why you want to meet with me?

Speaker 8 And I will not come in New York. I will not go in immigration or nowhere to put my name in the dangers and family name in the dangers.

Speaker 8 come and said, you know what, we're not saying if we make a mistake or not, we're going to call the judge and say, the judge, you enjoy your life, get your papers, and that's it. They never did that.

Speaker 8 They're supposed to do it.

Speaker 8 They told me, we're not like a federal prosecutors many times, not once. DOD, Department of Defense, twice in your county, Pennsylvania, said, Mr.
Skoro, we're not like a federal prosecutors.

Speaker 8 We are the Department of Defense. If we say something, we keep that.

Speaker 8 None of them.

Speaker 8 I have to keep my loyalty to you and agency, but you don't keep keep nothing to me.

Speaker 8 We got to work something together. I'm not interested to make money of my movie and book and document.
Trust me, I work. I can make a lot of money.
My wife works. My two kids work.

Speaker 8 We work, four of us.

Speaker 8 It's not really money. It's no money to the CIA working.
Trust me.

Speaker 8 You get some money, but for me, it's nothing. It can be for an Afghani goatkeeper, you know, those poor guys, you give $500 or $1,000.
I'm not Afghani.

Speaker 8 You know, I can earn money in a proper way.

Speaker 8 You bring in 200,000 Afghanis and you say they help us. No, those 200,000 Afghanistan, they didn't help us.
It's stupid to think like that. It's embarrassment.
We help them. They give up not to fight.

Speaker 8 They coward.

Speaker 8 I'm using this word. I'm sorry to use that.
How come they didn't find Taliban? Why they left all those weapons over there? Why they give up so quick? They didn't even fire a bullet. They run away.

Speaker 8 We spent 20 years over there. We spent all that money.
We invest all that money. And now you bring in 200,000 Afghanis, but you don't want to help your source.

Speaker 8 You had a 10-year source who was working everywhere.

Speaker 9 What did they plan on using all the weapons that you procured?

Speaker 9 How did they I mean, you talked about landmines and all of that kind of destroy all of them.

Speaker 8 They took and destroyed.

Speaker 9 They took it and destroyed it. Everything.

Speaker 8 Whatever I got, all the CIA took it. With the

Speaker 9 Would the network that you set up in in in

Speaker 9 shit?

Speaker 9 Slovakia?

Speaker 9 The network that you set up. Would they ever ask where the weapons were?

Speaker 8 They was thinking I'm uh uh getting for al-Qaeda.

Speaker 9 But did they ever want to see him? No.

Speaker 8 Never. Because it's a strict rules.
Al-Qaeda doesn't show nothing to you guys.

Speaker 8 I cannot. That's a two secret Maybe if they ask me, I would say, Are you a spy?

Speaker 8 You're working for somebody,

Speaker 8 maybe you're working for Americans or foreign agency.

Speaker 8 You see the bathroom you have downstairs. I can say three or four times bigger than that place.
I took C4 from the terror group, just C4,

Speaker 8 two or three times list,

Speaker 8 like that bathroom you have. Full.

Speaker 8 Not just a little bit, full. Yeah.

Speaker 8 This with my hands.

Speaker 8 and all give to the CIA.

Speaker 8 I did never problem. I never caused no damage.

Speaker 8 No CIA was ever hurt or something.

Speaker 8 Everybody was safe and good. I did everything myself.

Speaker 9 How did you get back into the US?

Speaker 8 How I came back? It's very easy. For me, it's no problem to come to the U.S.

Speaker 8 It's no problem for me today, after 10 days, to be in Afghanistan. It's very easy.
It's all open border.

Speaker 8 Sean, I always keep my sources.

Speaker 8 I always have friends.

Speaker 8 My good friends, they know I will never betray them. I would die, never betray them.
I'm very loyal, but I'm not loyal to terrorists.

Speaker 8 But I can be your friend. I never betrayed you.

Speaker 8 But not to terrorists. I'm not loyal to terrorists.
But to friends, I'm a loyal. I can pick a phone.
If I want to assassinate somebody, I can do that. I have a friend.

Speaker 9 So are you saying that you came back into the country illegally?

Speaker 8 In the US, yeah.

Speaker 8 Somebody drove me from Canada.

Speaker 8 It's no problem. You have an open border a lot of places.

Speaker 9 And so, what's your status now?

Speaker 8 Oh, now I'm

Speaker 8 to stay. My status is granted from immigration judge.

Speaker 8 I have no problem now. I'm legally permitted in the US.
I have no issue no more. I have no courts or nothing.
I'm free. It's just I cannot fly overseas.

Speaker 9 And what do you do now?

Speaker 8 I'm a cab driver.

Speaker 9 Hell of a cab to get into.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but I never talk to the customers. You don't? No.

Speaker 9 I don't think they will believe you, anyways.

Speaker 8 Oh, it's not that. And I meet all kinds of people.
Sometimes it's interesting. Some people they want to show off or tell you story.
And I don't buy easy. I have more skills than them.

Speaker 8 I was

Speaker 8 a car wash owner for 10 years. I had a car wash business.

Speaker 8 I lost car wash business because my bad friends, CIA, 2016, they're sending me a team, 50 people to arrest me in Brooklyn with helicopter, with sniper.

Speaker 8 They're

Speaker 8 arresting me like arresting al-Qaeda leader. I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 9 What did they arrest you for?

Speaker 8 For nothing. Complain.
And they released me.

Speaker 9 What complaint? What was the complaint?

Speaker 8 They said

Speaker 8 the prosecutor,

Speaker 8 here I can give you small details, the prosecutor who arrest a terror guy who's convicted in US oil, overseas,

Speaker 8 when they came in Canada, they thought I was going to testify something against.

Speaker 8 And the prosecutor convict him with my source information. And he give credit to informers, all my information, what CIA provide to him.
And then he went against me saying he's a liar, the prosecutor.

Speaker 8 And then I go in a court in front of the federal judge. I said, Your Honor, I want to, because I know now I'm not a mouse not to know my rights.

Speaker 8 And I told the lawyer who was defending me, excellent lawyer. I have the best lawyers in the United States this time.
Before, I didn't have that. Now, I have the best lawyers in the United States.

Speaker 8 And they're willing always to defend me for free. I don't have to pay them.
They're so good lawyers, they're willing to defend me for free.

Speaker 8 Because they know I'm honest. They know I put my life in danger to protect Americans.
They come, the judge said to two prosecutors, are you going to indict him? Prosecutor had no indictment.

Speaker 8 Sean, if you re-entry to the U.S., if you have all these pictures, the prosecutor will send you for life in prison. So they didn't do anything.

Speaker 8 They didn't do anything. And the same prosecutor, after one, you know, the worst part in the Justice Justice Department are federal prosecutors.

Speaker 8 Because they work one year, two years. They don't work to stop a criminal.
They just work to build a little bit of reputation, to create experience, so they can be private lawyers to make money.

Speaker 8 Because prosecutors don't make no money. So a lot of people become victim for that.

Speaker 8 The way I become a victim.

Speaker 8 But thank God, judge, make a right decision. I really appreciate it.
I have nothing to say. That judge is going to be.
I have a

Speaker 8 I have all the recording. Like, you see the way I was talking to you today?

Speaker 8 The judge, they know I record all the decision. I'm not supposed to do that.
But I was so happy when they make that decision. Like, I'm a born for second time.
Because my kids was there.

Speaker 8 They've seen, they know what I've been through. They was all the time present with me.
They went in a pain the way I went. They suffer

Speaker 8 with me, my wife and kids. So the judge said, I cannot deport this guy, this guy gonna stay in my country.

Speaker 8 She made decisions, she was a lady, she granted me stay.

Speaker 8 And I'm here. I'm happy with the judge, but I'm not happy with agency.
Because agency couldn't do that, me not to be here.

Speaker 8 Sean, agency, I couldn't, I still couldn't help the agency a lot of things.

Speaker 8 Even after my assassination attempt, I couldn't help them A lot.

Speaker 8 I was more brain than them. Not from all of them.
Not like Devin and Scott. Those Devon and Scott I dealt in the beginning, they were brilliant agents, super good CIA agents.

Speaker 8 And the one in the federal prison, Lieutenant Lyons. He was former Marines.
He was excellent. I will

Speaker 8 welcome to work again with them.

Speaker 8 But the last one,

Speaker 8 crazy.

Speaker 9 Would you do it all over again?

Speaker 8 Absolutely.

Speaker 9 Even knowing how they treated you. Yes.

Speaker 8 With

Speaker 8 no mistake.

Speaker 8 No second thought.

Speaker 8 Just I will put one condition. I want everything black and white in a paper writing.

Speaker 8 The way agents work inside of the agency, I want like that too.

Speaker 8 If you're not going to have me to have that paper because I signed contract with them, if I cannot keep that paper, my kids cannot have that, then I will not. But

Speaker 8 if you offer me that, I will do it from the beginning.

Speaker 8 And you don't believe how much is the country in the dangers today.

Speaker 8 You're not going to see that today.

Speaker 8 You're going to remember my interview with you after 10 years. How much I see it in a country.

Speaker 8 How it's

Speaker 8 fanatics growing in the U.S. How are they growing? Badly.

Speaker 9 I mean, I see it. I know they're recruiting out of the country.

Speaker 8 A little bit, you see.

Speaker 8 It's me different because when I see

Speaker 8 what they're reading,

Speaker 8 I can tell

Speaker 8 if they're going to be bad to the country. You know, when Imam tells you,

Speaker 8 hey, you don't need to ask me all the time, fight for your rights. Do what you have to do for your rights.

Speaker 8 That means he's instigating you, he's preaching you, he's brainwashing you, you to do something. That's bad.

Speaker 8 And the U.S. agency failing badly.
Another thing, they have no control of finance.

Speaker 8 How much money they give, U.S. government have zero control.
And those goes, that finance goes in a bad people's hand.

Speaker 8 You know why it's quiet today?

Speaker 8 Because they want to grow.

Speaker 8 In a fanatics

Speaker 8 ideology is this. I can easily tell you that.

Speaker 8 The ideology is a sick ideology because

Speaker 8 they wanted to get strong with finance. So when it's time to fight you, they can fight you.
They're not making peace with you.

Speaker 8 They're just quiet. They're telling you, yeah, like a situation in Syria.

Speaker 8 But when it's time, they will fight you back. We help al-Qaeda and bin Laden in Afghanistan.

Speaker 8 You know what

Speaker 8 the CIA agent I read, his book, I don't want to mention his name now to advertise him. He said, We offer him over half a billion dollars to Bin Laden in his book.
You can read that.

Speaker 8 Just to come in TV and say, I'm giving up jihad. I'm not fighting against Crusaders.
I'm going to live in Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 8 He said, No, I read in his book, he was 25 years CI agent in his bin Laden unit, investigated. That's what he said.

Speaker 8 So, same thing happened today. A lot of breeding of fanatics is there, but the agency is failing.
You know, it's a joke. The biggest

Speaker 8 breeding comes from the prison, from institution.

Speaker 8 Crazy. You don't believe it?

Speaker 9 I believe it.

Speaker 8 I tell you, the way I see it, it's crazy. And we're going to feel the pains after 10-15 years.

Speaker 8 But it's going to be too late. Sean, it's here, you ask me, it's easy to get weapons.
I can get weapons as much as you want in the United States. Give me the money.
I can buy you anything you want.

Speaker 8 Anything you name it, I can get you.

Speaker 8 So if I can get that, you think one day terrorists are not going to get that? Of course. Oh, I know they're getting it.

Speaker 9 We talk about it a lot on this show.

Speaker 8 I see it.

Speaker 8 So look at me. I see that what's going on.
And I tell you that.

Speaker 8 And you don't want to.

Speaker 8 Source like that. Come on.

Speaker 8 I can make a living anywhere you want.

Speaker 8 You wanna understand my mind, what I think?

Speaker 8 If you throw me in the middle of Atlantic Ocean, no claws,

Speaker 8 no money, I come out from Atlantic Ocean with clothes and money. This is how I trust myself.

Speaker 8 This is who I am. I don't see movies,

Speaker 8 but I'm the person you're dealing now.

Speaker 8 I can do things.

Speaker 8 I don't need attention. I don't need my name to be there.

Speaker 8 I couldn't be very low profile like before and do things which benefit you and the country.

Speaker 8 I didn't got no benefit.

Speaker 8 Did you see me how I was emotional?

Speaker 8 It's 54 years old. It's very heartbroken, you know, to come to that point.

Speaker 8 You betrayed me.

Speaker 8 Why?

Speaker 8 You have a man. I can die for you.

Speaker 8 Why you don't just give me the hand, say, let me pull you.

Speaker 8 You don't need to drown. I can help you.

Speaker 8 I'm a normal human. I love my kids.
I love my family. I did everything for my kids and family.

Speaker 8 Somebody who loved the kids and family, he would not hurt you. Never.

Speaker 8 Because when I saw that day jumping from 9-11, AD...

Speaker 8 third floor people jumping i saw i don't care what they're saying with conspiracy i was thinking to kill that guy in my cell because he was happy seeing them. I saw it was a moment.
I saw a God.

Speaker 8 I'm telling you, believe it or not, I was thinking to kill that guy, that terrorist guy in cell.

Speaker 9 I believe it.

Speaker 8 Come on.

Speaker 8 I want to be happy. People jumping, people who feed my kids, people who help me all the time.
I'm going to be happy. Never.
Religion, I will ban my religion.

Speaker 8 If they push me like that, I will ban.

Speaker 8 I want to live a normal human being.

Speaker 8 I rather be with my kids, normal, than be judged like that. Oh, look at what he did, killed innocent people.
I don't have to be in a problem in a war. War, it's a war.

Speaker 8 War, it's a war,

Speaker 8 but not the way they do it.

Speaker 8 Hijacking a plan or blowing yourself in supermarket. That's not a war.

Speaker 8 Come on.

Speaker 9 Well, we're wrapping up the interview. Do you have anything in particular you want to say?

Speaker 8 I hope right people listen this.

Speaker 8 I don't want attention.

Speaker 8 For me, it's quality of the people to hear this. I'm not against nobody.
I'm against terrorists.

Speaker 8 I was never double. Never one side.
If I was double, I couldn't do a lot of things until today. A lot.

Speaker 8 But I'm proud who I am. I proudly serve this country.
I deserve to be treated just a little bit like a human. Not too much, just a little bit.

Speaker 8 Well, I would hope

Speaker 8 everybody enjoys that.

Speaker 8 Not taking wrong my interview.

Speaker 9 Well, they're gonna enjoy it.

Speaker 8 Well, please.

Speaker 9 Thank you for what you've done for the country. Thank you for being here.
And

Speaker 9 I can't wait to see that documentary hit.

Speaker 8 Thank you very much. I'm honored to be in your place.

Speaker 9 It's an honor to have. It's an honor.

Speaker 8 I'll be very honest with you. When I saw you shows, I said this is my dream place to be.

Speaker 8 The way I never mentioned every code in the banks and stuff, one day you have to put something, password.

Speaker 8 I put my dream job, CIA.

Speaker 8 So this is who I was. I'm a Muslim, but my dream job was CIA.

Speaker 9 You might want to change those passwords now.

Speaker 8 From now on, I have to.

Speaker 8 Sean Ryan.

Speaker 8 All right, Blah. Thank you you very much.
I really appreciate it, man. I really appreciate it.