#183 Dr. Ben Carson - Neuralink, God’s Hand in Neuroscience and Human Consciousness

Speaker 1 By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things, like how family is precious. Work can always wait.
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Speaker 4 Dr. Ben Carson, welcome to the show.

Speaker 5 Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this for a long time and

Speaker 4 I can't believe you're actually here. This is really,

Speaker 4 really surreal for me. I've been watching and following what you're doing for a long time.
And

Speaker 4 I just, I love everything you've got going on and everything you've done. And

Speaker 4 I think everything you stand for.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 we love what you do and the in-depth shows that you do and your service to the country as a Navy SEAL.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 4 Everybody starts with an introduction. And so here we go.

Speaker 4 Dr. Ben Carson, you were raised in poverty in a single-parent home in Detroit, Michigan.

Speaker 4 You earned a medical degree from the University of Michigan Medical School, School specializing in neurosurgery.

Speaker 4 At age 33, you became the youngest major division director in John Hopkins Hospital's history as the head of pediatric neurosurgery.

Speaker 4 You gained international recognition for your groundbreaking surgical innovations, notably for leading the first successful separation of

Speaker 4 conjoined twins. You are the author of numerous scientific articles and books, including Gifted Hands, The Ben Carson Story,

Speaker 4 which was later turned into a television movie. You received the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2008, the highest civilian honor in the United States.

Speaker 4 You ran for president in 2016 and were later appointed by President Trump as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, HUD,

Speaker 4 serving from 2017 to 2021. You are a husband to Candy Carson since 1975,

Speaker 4 50 years in July as we spoke downstairs, congratulations.

Speaker 5 Thank you, half a century.

Speaker 4 The father of three sons and most importantly, a Christian.

Speaker 4 So I'm just going to, 50 years. I mean,

Speaker 4 that's amazing. And so,

Speaker 4 you know, kind of to start it off, I just,

Speaker 4 what would you say the secret to a successful marriage is?

Speaker 5 I would say marrying the right person.

Speaker 5 That's the secret to a successful marriage. You know, making sure that this is somebody that you really like,

Speaker 5 that you really have fun with.

Speaker 5 You know, so many people, they get married on the basis of physical attraction or something of that nature. And that wanes with time.
And all of a sudden,

Speaker 5 you don't have anything in common. And that's a problem.

Speaker 4 Interesting. I literally just talked about that as well, just a few days ago.
So it's

Speaker 4 great to have your affirmation on that. And

Speaker 4 I 100% agree with that.

Speaker 4 So before we get too in the weeds,

Speaker 4 I want to do a full life story on you. So I hope you're

Speaker 4 ready for the long haul here. Not a problem.

Speaker 4 But I want to start off, just a couple of things. We have a Patreon account.
It's a subscription account.

Speaker 4 They've been with me since the very beginning when I started this show in the attic of my house. And it was just me and my wife.
And

Speaker 4 then we moved to this studio. The team grew, and it's really all because of them.
And so we've built quite the community over there.

Speaker 4 And one of the things that I offer them is they get to ask each and every guest a question.

Speaker 4 And so this is from Roy G. It's a good question.

Speaker 4 Dr. Carson, what actionable steps can be taken to address the hospital, insurance, and pharmaceutical system that has made health care costs outrageously expensive?

Speaker 4 I'm not looking for a pie-in-the-sky idea, but rather a realistic solution that could actually be enacted within this administration.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 as everybody knows,

Speaker 5 cost of medical care is skyrocketing.

Speaker 5 It's much greater in this country than it is anywhere else in the world. And yet we don't have the best outcomes.
We don't have the best longevity.

Speaker 5 So it makes you question the efficiency of our system. We spend $13,100 per capita per year in this country on health care.

Speaker 5 Concierge practices, just to put that in perspective, cost generally $5,000 to $10,000.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 it is really a problem. What do you need for good health care? A patient, a health care provider? That's all you need.

Speaker 5 Along came the middleman to facilitate the relationship, and now the middleman is the major entity controlling both of the other two.

Speaker 5 That's where all the money is going.

Speaker 5 So, what we need to do is have a system

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 takes us back to the health care provider and the patient.

Speaker 5 And we already actually have that.

Speaker 5 It's called health savings accounts.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 if you have, if you just modify that system a little bit, it would be very effective. And when I say modify it,

Speaker 5 allow, for instance, If a husband is having a procedure or something done and he's short $500,

Speaker 5 his wife can give it to him out of hers or his brother or his cousin or his uncle or his aunt.

Speaker 5 And that way, every family becomes their own insurance company,

Speaker 5 interestingly enough.

Speaker 5 And you also modify it so that when a person dies, their health savings account can be given to one of their family members.

Speaker 5 So over the course of

Speaker 5 a generation or two,

Speaker 5 almost every family would have an enormous amount of power

Speaker 5 and they would be able to control their own

Speaker 5 medical care that way.

Speaker 5 And also they're going to be very interested in Uncle Joe who's smoking three packs of cigarettes a day. They're going to be hiding their cigarettes.

Speaker 5 That's a good point.

Speaker 4 That's a good point.

Speaker 5 That would save us an enormous amount of money.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the obvious question is, well, what about the people

Speaker 5 who are not employed, whose employer can't put money into their health savings account? What about them?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 where does the money come from? That $13,100

Speaker 5 comes from the government.

Speaker 5 You just divert it, you wouldn't have to put as much much into people's savings account and it rolls over from year to year.

Speaker 5 So if you don't have any major thing done for several years, you've got a heck of a lot of money.

Speaker 5 And for many people, it would be the first time they ever owned anything.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they learn how to manage money. They learn economics.
It would make the medical system very transparent. It would have to be because people would want to know how much something costs.

Speaker 5 You're not going to keep

Speaker 5 using the system if you know it's coming out of your health savings account.

Speaker 5 And your doctor is not going to say, let's just do another CAT scan to see how things are, unless he really wants one because it's coming out of your account. You're not going to let him do that.

Speaker 5 You're going to, why do you want to do another scan?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it's sort of like when you go to a hotel

Speaker 5 and you put your credit card down and the attendances but you don't need that all your expenses are taken care of oh well let me see the in dining in room dining menu as opposed to where's the nearest McDonald's

Speaker 4 has this been introduced anywhere

Speaker 5 uh no not really I've talked to uh to Bobby Kennedy about it he's very interested he was receptive he's very receptive

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 That sounds...

Speaker 5 It would completely change our system

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 it would cost us a heck of a lot less money

Speaker 5 and it would bring transparency to the system which would bring its own set of improvements.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 I hope that happens.

Speaker 5 I hope it does too.

Speaker 5 You know, particularly

Speaker 5 with all the pressure that we have on the system with illegals who've come in.

Speaker 4 Do you think there's a real possibility that that could get pushed through?

Speaker 5 I think so.

Speaker 5 Depends on how logic.

Speaker 5 Now, you know, there would be

Speaker 5 people who are very much entrenched in this system who make a lot lot of money out of this,

Speaker 5 who would not be too happy about it,

Speaker 5 including some of the insurance companies,

Speaker 5 because they would see their source of enormous profits disappearing.

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 4 I bet that would be

Speaker 4 one hell of a fight.

Speaker 5 It will be, but it's a concept that people can understand pretty easily.

Speaker 4 Doesn't sound complicated at all.

Speaker 4 Man.

Speaker 5 It's not complicated. We've made it complicated because the more complex we can make it, the easier it is to deceive people and to continue scamming people.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 4 I can't think of a better response for question.

Speaker 4 That just blew me away. I can't wait to get this out already.

Speaker 4 So everybody on the show gets a gift. I've always really hesitant to give this out to doctors.

Speaker 5 Oh, dear, what are we happy?

Speaker 4 Those are vigilance lead gummy bears.

Speaker 5 So, yeah.

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Speaker 5 Well, thank you.

Speaker 4 Probably be outlawed by the Maha movement here in a couple months.

Speaker 5 Better get them while you can. Yeah, you better get them while you can.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Who knows? They might come raiding your house to confiscate them.

Speaker 4 Let's dig into your life story starting right at the very beginning. Where did you grow up?

Speaker 5 Grew up in Detroit. And

Speaker 5 I thought my early life was kind of idyllic.

Speaker 5 We live in one of those GI homes, 700 square feet,

Speaker 5 very small, about the size of my master bedroom now.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 for me, it was ideal. There was a little lawn

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 you know we had a

Speaker 5 family, my father, my mother, my brother.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 There was a school that was in walking distance.

Speaker 5 And it all seemed okay until it fell apart when I was eight years old and my parents got divorced.

Speaker 5 Now I had noticed that my father wasn't around a lot but he was a factory worker and a part-time preacher.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 you know he would hide behind the part-time preacher part

Speaker 5 but it turned out he had another family.

Speaker 4 He had another family?

Speaker 5 He had another family.

Speaker 5 And that's why he wasn't around a lot.

Speaker 5 And that's what resulted in the divorce.

Speaker 4 How big was the other family?

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 5 I didn't know much about the other family.

Speaker 5 Still don't know much about them.

Speaker 5 But that resulted in the divorce.

Speaker 4 What do you know about the other family?

Speaker 5 They're in Detroit.

Speaker 5 I know one of the

Speaker 5 women in the other family has told people that she's my half-sister. I've never met her.

Speaker 5 She is.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 that was devastating. And we didn't have a place to live for a while.

Speaker 5 But some relatives in Boston took us in.

Speaker 5 One of my mother's older sisters and her husband where did you live in the interim

Speaker 5 any place where we could find shelter

Speaker 5 any relatives or friends of my mother's

Speaker 4 but um how long did that go on

Speaker 5 uh

Speaker 5 just a matter of weeks before we found

Speaker 5 before we found shelter in Boston.

Speaker 4 And um Was your brother is your brother older or younger than you older two years older so single mom a 10-year-old and an eight-year-old

Speaker 4 just bouncing around Detroit trying to figure out trying to find shelter trying to find out where to be

Speaker 5 but uh what were you thinking at eight years old

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Speaker 5 Everything was an adventure.

Speaker 5 Well, that was eight years ago. And I didn't really fully understand what was going on,

Speaker 5 to be honest with you. I thought we were just,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 having different adventures.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, it was something going to Boston on the train.

Speaker 5 But it was a very different neighborhood.

Speaker 5 Multifamily dwellings, rats and roaches, broken glass all over the place,

Speaker 5 gangs,

Speaker 5 murders. Both of my older cousins that we adored were killed.

Speaker 5 That's the kind of place that it was.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, somehow...

Speaker 5 We made it through all of that. My mother was working all the time

Speaker 5 because she didn't like the concept of being dependent on the government.

Speaker 5 And she worked as a domestic going from place to place.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 her goal was to get us back to Detroit

Speaker 5 and to be independent. And after a couple of years

Speaker 5 She had saved enough to be able to do that.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, it was still a multifamily dwelling, but and there were still rats and roaches and

Speaker 5 dilapidated

Speaker 5 housing. But nevertheless, she was independent.
We were independent at that time.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the major story there is that

Speaker 5 both my brother and I were terrible students.

Speaker 5 Really? We were at the bottom of the class. And kids made fun of

Speaker 5 us all the time.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, I didn't like it very much, but I tried to act like it didn't bother me. But it did bother me quite a bit.

Speaker 5 But it bothered my mother more than it bothered me. And she just didn't know what to do.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 she was convinced that

Speaker 5 we were going to have the same kind of life that she had.

Speaker 5 You know, menial jobs and

Speaker 5 not

Speaker 5 realizing the American dream.

Speaker 5 And she prayed for wisdom.

Speaker 5 And God gave it to her.

Speaker 5 At least in her opinion, my brother and I didn't think it was wise at all because it was to turn off the TV and make us read books.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we were not happy at all. In today's world, we probably would have called a social services owner.

Speaker 5 But we had to read those books.

Speaker 5 And the first book that I read

Speaker 5 was about a beaver. It was called Chip the Dam Builder.

Speaker 5 And it was a great book.

Speaker 5 I enjoyed that book so much that I started reading other animal books. I read every animal book

Speaker 5 in the Detroit Public Libraries.

Speaker 5 And then I started reading about plants and then I started reading about rocks

Speaker 5 because we live right by the railroad tracks. You get so used to the trains coming by, they make a lot of noise, you don't even hear it anymore.

Speaker 5 But there are all these rocks and I would collect the rocks in a box and bring them home

Speaker 5 and read about them. And pretty soon I could identify virtually any rock, where it came from, how it was formed.
Still in the fifth grade, still the dummy. Nobody knew about this project of mine.

Speaker 5 And then one day, Mr. Jake, the fifth grade science teacher, walked in and he held this big black shiny rock.
He says, can anybody tell me what this is?

Speaker 5 Well, I never raised my hand. I never answered questions.
So I waited for one of the other students and

Speaker 5 nobody raised their hand.

Speaker 5 And I said,

Speaker 5 wow, this is my big chance.

Speaker 5 And I raised my hand.

Speaker 5 And Mr. Jake was shocked.
And all my classmates were turned around.

Speaker 5 Benny Carson's got his hand up. Oh, this is going to be good.

Speaker 5 And Mr. Jake said, Benny?

Speaker 5 And I said, Mr. Jake, that's obsidian.

Speaker 5 And there was silence in the room. Because nobody knew whether it was right or wrong.
And they didn't know whether they should be impressed or whether they should be laughing. And Mr.

Speaker 5 Jake said, that's right. It is obsidian.

Speaker 5 And I said, obsidian is formed after a volcanic eruption and the lava flows down, it hits the water, there's a supercooling process, the elements coalesce, the surface glazes.

Speaker 5 So everybody was staring at me.

Speaker 5 What in the world is going on here?

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 I was the most amazed person because it dawned on me at that moment. I said, you're no dummy at all.
The reason you knew the answer is because you've been reading the books.

Speaker 5 I said, aren't you tired of being called a dummy? I said, say, what if you read books about all your subjects? From that point forward,

Speaker 5 you never saw me without a book. If I had five minutes, I was reading a book.

Speaker 5 I went from being called a dummy to being called a bookworm.

Speaker 5 And within the space of a year and a half, I went from the bottom of the class to the top of the class.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 5 All the students who used to call me dummy were coming to me saying, Benny, Benny, how do you work this problem?

Speaker 5 And I would say, sit at my feet, youngster, while I instruct you. I was probably a little obnoxious.

Speaker 5 But it really changed the trajectory of my

Speaker 5 life significantly. But the other thing,

Speaker 5 probably just as importantly,

Speaker 5 is

Speaker 5 I hated poverty.

Speaker 5 You know, some people hate rats. Some people hate snakes

Speaker 5 and bugs.

Speaker 5 I hated poverty.

Speaker 5 And, you know, it really stung acutely. The teacher would sometimes say, everybody bring a nickel tomorrow because we're going to have popcorn balls.

Speaker 5 And they were beautifully wrapped in these cellophane

Speaker 5 wrappings. of different colors and they looked so good.

Speaker 5 And they only cost a nickel. Some kids actually would bring a dollar to the school and buy a whole bag of them.

Speaker 5 But, you know, I never had a popcorn ball

Speaker 5 because we never had an extra nickel. That's how bad things were.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 I just hated poverty until

Speaker 5 I started reading those books, until I started reading about about successful people.

Speaker 5 Surgeons, scientists, explorers and entrepreneurs, inventors.

Speaker 5 And as I read their stories, I began to realize that the person who has the most to do with what happens to you is you.

Speaker 5 And the person who determines your future is you.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 then

Speaker 5 poverty didn't bother me because I knew that it was only temporary and that I had the ability to change it.

Speaker 4 How old were you when you came to this?

Speaker 5 I would have been about 10 or 11 at that point.

Speaker 4 You figured it out at 10 or 11 years old?

Speaker 5 Yep.

Speaker 5 And I knew I wanted to be

Speaker 5 a doctor.

Speaker 5 I've always

Speaker 5 been drawn toward medicine.

Speaker 5 I used to love hearing the stories about missionary doctors who traveled all over the world

Speaker 5 at great personal expense and danger

Speaker 5 to bring not only physical but mental and spiritual health to people.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I actually had determined when I was eight years old that I was going to be a missionary doctor. Even when I was a terrible student,

Speaker 5 I was going to be a missionary doctor. And

Speaker 5 that was really my dream until I was 13.

Speaker 5 At age 13,

Speaker 5 having grown up in dire poverty, I decided I'd rather be rich. So missionary doctor was out.

Speaker 5 and psychiatrist was in

Speaker 5 because

Speaker 4 you know

Speaker 5 on TV, psychiatrists seemed like rich people. They lived in the mansions and drove jaguars and had these big plush offices and all they had to do is talk to crazy people all day.

Speaker 5 And it seemed like I was doing that anyway. So I said, wow, this is going to work out really well.

Speaker 5 My brother knew about my interest in becoming a psychiatrist. And he had a job and he bought me a subscription to Psychology Today.

Speaker 5 And I started reading it, and I became the local shrink in high school. Everybody would bring me their problems.
I would sit them down, stroke my chin, say, tell me about your mama.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I was all gung-ho.

Speaker 5 I majored in psychology at Yale.

Speaker 5 Had interesting professors like Anna Freud, who was the daughter of Sigmund Freud,

Speaker 5 psychoanalysis. I was really heading down that pathway.
And by the time I got to medical school, I was convinced I was going to be a psychiatrist. The rest of medicine really didn't interest me.

Speaker 5 Certainly, surgery was not even on my radar at all.

Speaker 4 Hold on, let's go back a little bit.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 you go right into Yale?

Speaker 5 Went into Yale from Southwestern High School in inner city Detroit. That was a major culture shock, I must say.

Speaker 5 It was actually the first year that Yale admitted women, so there were a lot of changes going on on the campus.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 it was the first time I'd,

Speaker 5 you know, seen real China and real silver.

Speaker 5 these beautiful paintings on the mahogany walls and Oriental rugs. I mean, it was a big big change from what I was used to.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I was kind of enjoying it and having fun and

Speaker 5 really wasn't concentrating on my studies very much. Well, what did you have been?

Speaker 4 Must have a really proud mom.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 She was very proud.

Speaker 5 My brother

Speaker 5 had

Speaker 5 gone into the Navy

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 he subsequently came out of the Navy and went to University of Michigan,

Speaker 5 majored in

Speaker 5 engineering

Speaker 5 and he ultimately

Speaker 5 started working in the aerospace industry.

Speaker 5 So he became the rocket scientist and I became the brain surgeon. But

Speaker 5 it all worked out.

Speaker 4 Let's rewind a little bit more. Something happened at age 14.

Speaker 4 Yes. You weren't just a bookworm.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was a major change in my life. You know,

Speaker 5 I had a quick temper.

Speaker 5 I would get very angry.

Speaker 5 And when I got angry,

Speaker 5 I became irrational.

Speaker 5 I would just want to hurt people.

Speaker 5 I remember one time there was

Speaker 5 a boy at school. I was in the third grade and we got in a fight and I hit him with a baseball bat and I got in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I went home

Speaker 5 and I wanted to kill myself.

Speaker 5 Because I didn't want to face

Speaker 5 you know the teachers and stuff back in school.

Speaker 5 And I remember

Speaker 5 my brother was there.

Speaker 5 I said, do you know where the rat poison is?

Speaker 5 And he said, why do you need rat poison? I said, I need to kill myself.

Speaker 4 In third grade?

Speaker 5 And he said,

Speaker 5 you know, I know a much better way to kill yourself than rat poison.

Speaker 5 I said, yeah. He said, yeah.

Speaker 5 What you do is you drink water until you burst.

Speaker 5 and that'll kill you

Speaker 5 so i started drinking drinking

Speaker 5 and i just had to pee so much i forgot all about killing myself

Speaker 5 but um

Speaker 5 i remember there was another time one of the neighbors had hit me with a

Speaker 5 a pebble really it didn't hurt at all

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 I was just incensed that he would dare hit me. And I picked up a large rock,

Speaker 5 hurled it at him, broke his glasses, almost put his eye out. He had to get medical treatment.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 another time I was in school,

Speaker 5 one of the boys tried to close my locker. I didn't want it closed.
I struck him in the

Speaker 5 forehead with my fist.

Speaker 5 Unfortunately, still had the lock in my hand, put a three-inch gash in his forehead. Jeez.

Speaker 5 He was bleeding all over the place.

Speaker 5 I almost got kicked out of school for that one.

Speaker 5 And then my mother was trying to get me to wear something I didn't want to wear it, picked up my hammer, went to hit her in the head with it. And fortunately, my brother caught it from behind.

Speaker 5 Now, other than that, I was a pretty good kid. But

Speaker 5 you you can see how that temper can get you in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 5 At age 14, another

Speaker 5 kid angered me, changed the

Speaker 5 channel that I was

Speaker 5 involved with.

Speaker 5 I had a large camping knife. I tried to stab him in the abdomen.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 5 And fortunately, under his clothing, he had on a large metal belt buckle and the knife blade struck it with such force that it broke.

Speaker 5 And he fled in terror.

Speaker 5 But I was probably more horrified than he was, because I realized at that moment how out of control I was, that I was trying to kill somebody over nothing.

Speaker 5 And I locked myself in the bathroom.

Speaker 5 And I just started contemplating my life.

Speaker 5 And I realized that with a temper like that,

Speaker 5 my options were jail, reform school, or the grave.

Speaker 5 None of those appealed to me. And I just

Speaker 5 started praying. I said, Lord, you've got to help me.
I can't control my temper.

Speaker 5 I had read about behavioral modification in psychology today.

Speaker 5 But that's a very expensive proposition. We didn't have any money.

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 I said Lord, you have to change me. There was a Bible

Speaker 5 and I picked it up

Speaker 5 and turned to the book of Proverbs and started reading.

Speaker 5 There were all these verses about anger.

Speaker 5 Like Proverbs 19, 19, it says there's no point getting an angry man out of trouble. Because he's just going to get right back into it.

Speaker 5 But there were encouraging verses like Proverbs 16, 32, mightier is the man who can control his temper than the man who can conquer a city.

Speaker 5 And there are also all these verses about fools.

Speaker 5 And they all seem to fit the description of me.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I stayed in that bathroom for three hours praying and reading and contemplating. And during that time,

Speaker 5 it came to me

Speaker 5 that the reason that I was angry all the time is because I was selfish

Speaker 5 because it was always about me me my and I somebody did this to me they're in my space I want this

Speaker 5 and I said if you learn how to take yourself out of the center of the equation

Speaker 5 and insert someone else,

Speaker 5 it will solve your problem. And it did.
That was the the last day I had an angry outburst.

Speaker 5 Never had one since that. No kidding.

Speaker 5 But it was because

Speaker 5 I realized that it was all about me.

Speaker 5 And to change that would make a huge difference in my life.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 that was when I really found God.

Speaker 5 that day.

Speaker 5 And I adopted him not only as my heavenly father, but as my earthly father,

Speaker 5 as the person to go to

Speaker 5 for everything.

Speaker 5 And it made a big difference in my life.

Speaker 5 Now, I did have,

Speaker 5 perhaps, some unrealistic expectations,

Speaker 5 because one of the verses in the book of Proverbs,

Speaker 5 in the 10th chapter, it says,

Speaker 5 The expectations of the righteous shall come to be.

Speaker 5 So, when it came time to me to apply to college, I only had enough money to apply to one college.

Speaker 5 So, but I wanted to go to Yale.

Speaker 5 So, I applied to Yale

Speaker 5 as the only college.

Speaker 5 And I said, I'll get in because it says the expectation of the righteous. And I'm pretty righteous.
I said, I should get in. And I did.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 5 So that's how I wound up there. But

Speaker 5 like I said, I was kind of overwhelmed with all the stuff going on there.

Speaker 4 Well, what did your mom, what did your mom think when you got accepted?

Speaker 5 I think she kind of expected that I would. Really?

Speaker 5 Yeah, because she knew what a good student I was. I mean, I was getting A's and everything, had all these awards.
And

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 she said, why wouldn't you get out?

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 I don't know that

Speaker 5 she fully understood the significance of

Speaker 5 that.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 she was happy about it.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 but by the end of the first semester,

Speaker 5 I was in trouble

Speaker 5 because I was treating Yale Yale like I treated Southwestern High School. At Southwestern High School, I didn't have to study.

Speaker 5 Or I could study in study hall and get an A on the test to next.

Speaker 5 I mean, it was just too easy.

Speaker 5 And I figured I could do that at Yale also. It wasn't working.

Speaker 5 And I was failing freshman chemistry.

Speaker 5 And you can't fail chemistry and get into medical school.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I remember the night before the final exam, I just said, Lord, you know, all these years I thought I was going to be a doctor.

Speaker 5 And I thought you wanted me to be one, but if I fail chemistry, I'm not going to be a doctor.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 would you actually show me what it is that you really want me to do?

Speaker 5 Or alternatively and preferably work a miracle.

Speaker 5 Now the chemistry professor had said,

Speaker 5 either because he was

Speaker 5 a very good guy or because he was very sadistic.

Speaker 5 He said, anybody who's failing the course, I will give you double credit on your final exam.

Speaker 5 So you could not only pass, you could actually get a good grade

Speaker 5 and give you sort of that last hope before you get down.

Speaker 5 I think it was sadistic.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 I was going to study all night. I took that

Speaker 5 thick stenko and pain chemistry book. I was going to go through the whole thing at night.
Obviously, that didn't work. I fell asleep.

Speaker 5 And I dreamed I was in this auditorium. I was the only one there.
There was a nebulous figure working out chemistry problems on the blackboard.

Speaker 5 And I awakened early that morning and that dream was so vivid.

Speaker 5 I went and I looked up everything that was in the dream in the textbook.

Speaker 5 And when I went to take the tests the next day, I opened the book, I heard the music from the Twilight Zone because I recognized the first problem as one of the ones I dreamed about.

Speaker 4 Are you serious?

Speaker 5 Absolutely. And I turned the page and I recognized the next one and the next one and the next one.
I aced the exam

Speaker 5 because I had just seen it the night before.

Speaker 5 And I just said, Lord, you'll never have to do this for me again. I will become a serious student.

Speaker 5 And I did.

Speaker 5 But then,

Speaker 5 when I got to medical school,

Speaker 5 I had another problem

Speaker 5 because I did terribly on the first set of comprehensive exams

Speaker 5 to the point that my advisor, the person who was supposed to help me get through, suggested that I drop out of medical school. Said, you're not cut out for medicine.

Speaker 5 I was devastated.

Speaker 5 Since I was eight years old, I wanted to be a doctor. I finally get to medical school and the person person who's supposed to help me says, drop out.

Speaker 5 You can imagine the devastation.

Speaker 5 I went back to my apartment and of course I prayed. I said, Lord,

Speaker 5 help me to understand what I should do at this point.

Speaker 5 And I started thinking,

Speaker 5 I said, what kind of courses

Speaker 5 have you always struggled in

Speaker 5 and I realized that I struggled in courses where I listened to a lot of boring lectures.

Speaker 5 Because I don't get anything out of boring lectures.

Speaker 4 Zero, nothing.

Speaker 5 It's a waste of my time. And I was sitting in six hours' worth of boring lectures every day.

Speaker 5 And what kind of courses do you do well? And I do well in courses where I do a lot of reading.

Speaker 5 So I made an executive decision to skip the boring lectures and to spend that time reading.

Speaker 5 The rest of medical school was a snap after that.

Speaker 4 No kidding.

Speaker 5 And years later when I was back at my medical school as the commencement speaker,

Speaker 5 I was looking for that counselor. Because I was going to tell him he wasn't cut out to be a counselor.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 all of that

Speaker 5 you know, helped me, obviously, in a very big way along my career. but

Speaker 5 I'll go back to thinking I was going to be a psychiatrist

Speaker 5 then I started listening to some of the lectures by the neurosurgeons

Speaker 5 and the incredible stuff that they were able to do with the brain and the spinal cord and I was just so taken with it

Speaker 5 And I started moving in that direction. That's what I want to do.

Speaker 5 Several people discouraged me.

Speaker 5 They said that's not the right field for you. At that time, there had been eight black neurosurgeons in the world.

Speaker 5 But, you know, the Lord does not distribute talent based on race.

Speaker 5 I continued to migrate in that direction. And

Speaker 5 that's how I ended up in neurosurgery.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I started out as an adult neurosurgeon, but

Speaker 5 I very soon started migrating toward pediatrics because

Speaker 5 I just love kids

Speaker 5 and the potential that exists in kids.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 also with kids, you can do things that you can't do in adults because of plasticity.

Speaker 5 The fact that all the neurons haven't decided what they want to do when they grew up yet. So you can do more radical things and it can still turn out okay.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, the rest is history.

Speaker 4 What kind of radical things?

Speaker 5 Things like hemispherectomies, where you take out half the brain. to cure certain types of intractable seizures.

Speaker 5 The first

Speaker 5 one that I did

Speaker 5 was in 1985.

Speaker 5 A little girl from Denver,

Speaker 5 she said, I'm from Denver, Otto. She was from Denver, Colorado.

Speaker 5 She was having up to 130 seizures every day.

Speaker 5 They had tried everything to stop them, even putting her into a pinnabarital coma for two weeks. But as soon as they lifted the coma, the seizure started back up again.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the head of pediatric neurology at Hopkins, who's a much older fellow than myself,

Speaker 5 he said, Would you consider doing a hemispheric?

Speaker 5 It's an operation that

Speaker 5 had really been first done by Walter Dandy

Speaker 5 in about 1930.

Speaker 5 And some others had tried it

Speaker 5 and it was dramatically successful in stopping some of the seizure activity but the complication

Speaker 5 the morbidity and the mortality was so high that it had fallen out of favor

Speaker 5 so I read up on all the literature and

Speaker 5 I said, you know, a lot of these things that cause these people to die

Speaker 5 are things that we know how to deal with now that maybe they didn't know how to deal with in 1930 or 1940 or 1950.

Speaker 5 And so maybe if we apply some of the Martin techniques that we have, we can do this successfully.

Speaker 5 And that first operation on a little girl from Denver was a spectacular success.

Speaker 5 She was very photogenic, as was her mother. It got a lot of attention.

Speaker 5 That brought in a lot of calls from other people from around the country who had children who had these intractable seizures.

Speaker 5 And we did several hemispherectomies.

Speaker 5 Got a lot of attention. That was probably my first 15 minutes of fame.
You say everybody gets 15 minutes of fame. That was my 15 minutes

Speaker 5 of fame.

Speaker 5 But then the next year

Speaker 5 one of the obstetricians came to me.

Speaker 4 How old are you at this point?

Speaker 5 34

Speaker 5 34 years old.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 one of the obstetricians said, Ben, I have this pregnant woman with twins, but one of the twins has a severe case of hydrocephalus water on the brain and the head is expanding so quickly it's going to cause her to go into premature labor and both babies are going to be lost because their lungs are not mature enough to survive.

Speaker 5 And he said, do you think you could do an operation?

Speaker 5 By that time I had sort of started developing a reputation

Speaker 5 as doing unusual things to save children. He said, do you think you could come up with an operation where you could operate on the hydrocephalic twin while it's still in the mother's womb?

Speaker 5 And I know you can't save that one, but we could save the other baby who is perfectly normal.

Speaker 5 And, you know, there'd been a lot of talk about intrauterine surgery. New England Journal

Speaker 5 had

Speaker 5 an article about how it would be a very desirable thing, but that we weren't quite ready for that yet.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 these babies needed it now. They couldn't wait until we were ready for it.
So I contacted a neurosurgeon in Philadelphia who'd been doing some experimental work on sheep with intrauterine surgery.

Speaker 5 And I said, Bob, do you think we could modify your technique and make it available for humans

Speaker 5 in a week?

Speaker 5 And we went to work on it

Speaker 5 and we were ready to do it.

Speaker 5 But we couldn't do it at Hopkins. The ethics committee said, no, this is too far out.
You just can't do this.

Speaker 5 So we went to one of the community hospitals

Speaker 5 and did it there

Speaker 5 and could see the head of the hydrocephalic baby shrink right on the screen

Speaker 5 and bought several more weeks of guest station

Speaker 5 and when the babies were actually born it was a big national news story

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 everybody was saying

Speaker 5 wow this is incredible but then there was a lot of criticism too people saying we

Speaker 5 were ethically not ready to do something like this yet.

Speaker 5 And some of the experts were critical. That is, until it became clear that not only was the normal baby okay, but the hydrocephalic baby was okay too.

Speaker 5 And then they were saying, well, I would have done that too under those circumstances. But

Speaker 5 that was my second 15 minutes of fame.

Speaker 4 What was the, I don't understand, what was the criticism?

Speaker 5 The criticism was that this was too risky.

Speaker 4 What should have, what did they, what did they, what were they implying should have been done?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 you know, I don't think they had a logical

Speaker 5 thing.

Speaker 5 They didn't have a logical alternative

Speaker 5 because I engaged in something I call the BWA,

Speaker 5 a best-worse analysis.

Speaker 5 In fact, I wrote a book called Take the Risk, in which I explained the BWA.

Speaker 5 But it involves four questions.

Speaker 5 What's the best thing that happens if I do this?

Speaker 5 What's the worst thing that happens if I do this? What's the best thing that happens if I don't do this? What's the worst thing that happens if I don't do this?

Speaker 5 And when you ask those four questions in this situation, there's only one option that works. And you gotta do it.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I've asked those four questions about a lot of things during my neurosurgical career.

Speaker 5 And some people said, Carson's a hot dog. You know, he'll do anything.
But it's not true.

Speaker 5 It's done based on those four questions.

Speaker 5 And a lot of lives have been saved that perhaps would not have been saved by asking those questions.

Speaker 4 Did a lot of people follow in those footsteps?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, hemispherectomies are routinely done now.

Speaker 5 And at the time when I started doing them,

Speaker 5 they had completely fallen out of favor. I remember some medical students from Harvard called and

Speaker 5 they said,

Speaker 5 The professors here said that

Speaker 5 we had misunderstood that you were not taking out half the brain to cure intractable seizure. I said, your professors are wrong.

Speaker 5 We are doing, but it's done everywhere now at virtually all children's hospitals. Some of the techniques have been improved upon and modified, as they are in all surgical procedures.
But

Speaker 5 yeah, that's,

Speaker 5 and intrauterine surgery is

Speaker 5 done commonly in many pediatric hospitals now.

Speaker 4 How did you respond to the criticism?

Speaker 4 Did it affect you at all?

Speaker 5 Amazingly, you know,

Speaker 5 I don't really care too much about criticism.

Speaker 5 I would only care about what God thinks.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 even in my political career,

Speaker 5 you know, when people have been critical,

Speaker 5 I don't really pay much attention to it.

Speaker 5 As long as God is not critical, I'm good.

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Speaker 4 all right doctor we're back from the break uh i wanted to kind of dig in a little bit about what was it like

Speaker 5 preparing for the for the surgery with the twins or it was 22 hour operation it was a very interesting uh time in my life i got very interested in conjoined twins just out of the blue

Speaker 5 and i was saying

Speaker 5 why is it that the mortality rate is so high? Why did they all die?

Speaker 5 And I concluded after much research that it was exsanguination or bleeding to death.

Speaker 5 And I said, you know, this is 1987.

Speaker 5 We should be able to keep people from bleeding to death. We must have some techniques.

Speaker 5 I started thinking about it and

Speaker 5 I talked to the chief of cardiothoracic surgery who was a friend and I said

Speaker 5 Bruce what do you guys do you operate on little babies hearts how do you keep them from bleeding to death and he told me about hypothermic arrest you cool the body temperature you pump all the blood out stop the hearts

Speaker 5 And you can operate for up to an hour before you have to restore the circulation

Speaker 5 without major damage to the brain.

Speaker 5 And I've started thinking, I said,

Speaker 5 what if when you got to the part of a separation

Speaker 5 where they all bleed to death, you put them on hypothermic arrest

Speaker 5 and then you're able to get them separated, repair the vessels. pump the blood back in, start the heart up.

Speaker 5 And then I said, why am I thinking about this? I'm never going to see a set of twins like that.

Speaker 5 A few weeks later,

Speaker 5 there they were.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the question was being asked of various surgical teams in different places around the world. Do you have a solution?

Speaker 5 Because

Speaker 5 the parents didn't want to take the European solution.

Speaker 5 which was to choose which one should live and to sacrifice the other one.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I

Speaker 5 explained

Speaker 5 what I had been thinking and everybody said, you know, that sounds like it might work.

Speaker 5 And we started

Speaker 5 having some conferences on it, putting a team together.

Speaker 5 A few of us actually went over to Germany to examine the twins.

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 we came back and started doing practice sessions

Speaker 5 where we would take two dowels and stick them together with velcro

Speaker 5 and figure out what had to be done. The nurses designed special drapes that could be used.

Speaker 5 so that when you pull the beds apart, the drapes would fall into place and maintain the sterility of the field.

Speaker 5 The head nurse, Anuro,

Speaker 5 became my psychiatrist. You know, I would lay down on the couch and close my eyes and she would say, tell me what you need.
Tell me what instruments. She put together all the

Speaker 5 packs.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it was really

Speaker 5 quite a team effort.

Speaker 5 You know, I got...

Speaker 5 so much credit for doing it, but I couldn't have done it without all those people.

Speaker 4 How many people were involved?

Speaker 5 The surgical team itself was about 70 people.

Speaker 4 70 people.

Speaker 5 70 people.

Speaker 5 And probably one of the most interesting things is that

Speaker 5 the head of the department, Dr. Long,

Speaker 5 who had always been a supporter of mine as a resident,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 he would have these very prominent patients coming from all over the country all over the world

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 anyone who didn't want me on their case he would happily show them the door

Speaker 5 I remember there was one guy he said I can't have a black person operating on me

Speaker 5 and Dr. Long said there's the door

Speaker 5 he

Speaker 5 just didn't tolerate any of that kind of foolishness at all.

Speaker 5 But as the head of the department, he could have had the right to have done the surgery with me as the assistant, but no, he insisted I I be the primary surgeon

Speaker 5 and that he would assist.

Speaker 4 Back to the twins. That was a tw

Speaker 4 that was a twenty-two-hour operation?

Speaker 5 It was.

Speaker 4 Were you operating for twenty-two hours straight?

Speaker 5 Uh, for most of it. Part of the time the plastic surgeons were

Speaker 5 involved, but

Speaker 5 we did the lion's share. But a lot of people say, well, how can you stay awake that long?

Speaker 5 But you're not going to sleep.

Speaker 5 It's like being in the jungle with a hungry tiger. You're not going to sleep until you get out of there.

Speaker 5 But after the operation, I was sitting in my office with one of the other neurosurgeons.

Speaker 5 We were discussing the case. and we both fell asleep in mid-sentence and woke up three hours later.

Speaker 4 Downstairs,

Speaker 4 I was having a conversation with your wife and she had brought up the fact that

Speaker 4 you had,

Speaker 4 how did she word it?

Speaker 4 Basically, she was saying that you were operating outside of the law.

Speaker 5 Outside of what?

Speaker 4 Outside of the law.

Speaker 5 Outside of the law? I don't know.

Speaker 4 Maybe, maybe in a specific case.

Speaker 5 Maybe outside of tradition.

Speaker 4 Maybe outside of tradition.

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 4 never outside of the law. Outside of legal scope, maybe.
I don't know though.

Speaker 4 I don't think you know what she's talking about.

Speaker 5 I don't know what she's talking about.

Speaker 5 We certainly did things that were non-traditional and that

Speaker 5 would not be

Speaker 5 what other people would do.

Speaker 5 That may be what she was talking about.

Speaker 4 Well, we skipped ahead a couple of years, so I want to rewind.

Speaker 4 Where did you first meet your wife, Candy?

Speaker 5 We were both from Detroit, but we had to go to Yale to meet each other.

Speaker 5 And...

Speaker 4 Your wife was at Yale as well.

Speaker 5 Yes. She was two years behind me.

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 I knew that she was a musician

Speaker 5 from a previous conversation and the church that I was going to needed an organist.

Speaker 5 So I said, you know, would you like to come to our church and try out for organ?

Speaker 5 And she said,

Speaker 5 I haven't played for a while, but sure.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 that didn't work out, but she started singing in the choir.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, that fall

Speaker 5 at

Speaker 5 Thanksgiving, we both wanted to go back home for Thanksgiving, but neither of us had the money to go back home for Thanksgiving. But the school said, if you will recruit for them,

Speaker 5 they will pay the expenses of your going back home.

Speaker 5 So we were able to go back home on Yale's dime,

Speaker 5 including their credit card. So we were able to go out and have dinner and lunch.
And,

Speaker 5 you know, we kind of discovered that we liked each other.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 when it was time to go back,

Speaker 5 You know, we had been out late that night, and we had to drive all night to get the car back on time. It was a rental car

Speaker 5 and fell asleep on Interstate 80

Speaker 5 at Youngstown, Ohio, going 90 miles an hour

Speaker 5 and awakened by the vibrations of the car as it was going off the road.

Speaker 5 And I whipped the wheel and instead of the car going bouncing down the ravine, it just started spinning like a top. They say before you die, you see a video reel of your life.
I did.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 figured we were dead. Car stopped

Speaker 5 on the lane next to the shoulder and I could pull off just as an 18-wheeler came barreling through.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we just said to each other, I think the Lord just saved lives.

Speaker 5 And he obviously did that for a reason. He's got something for us to do.

Speaker 5 And that was our first kiss, and that's when we started going together.

Speaker 5 And that was on November the 28th, 1972. We celebrate the 28th of every month since then.

Speaker 4 Every month since then.

Speaker 5 Yep.

Speaker 4 What do you guys do to celebrate?

Speaker 5 We might go out to dinner or have a special dinner or special dessert or just acknowledge the fact that we're still alive.

Speaker 4 How many months is that now?

Speaker 5 It's been about 600 months. Wow.

Speaker 5 People would have forgotten about us a long time ago.

Speaker 4 When did you decide to get married?

Speaker 5 We got married in July of 1975.

Speaker 5 Candy graduated in June of 1975. We got married in July of 1975.

Speaker 4 How did you propose?

Speaker 5 You know, I don't remember specifically. I mean, we always knew that we were going to get married.
It just

Speaker 5 there wasn't really any other consideration.

Speaker 4 Did Candy grow up in poverty as well?

Speaker 5 Not as extreme as what I grew up in.

Speaker 5 You know, her mother was a school teacher.

Speaker 5 Her father, who had a problem with alcohol,

Speaker 5 worked in a factory.

Speaker 5 So they were

Speaker 5 lower middle class.

Speaker 5 You know, being

Speaker 5 and her father died while she was in high school.

Speaker 4 While she was in high school, yeah.

Speaker 4 Have you ever

Speaker 4 tried to find your father since eight years old?

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah. No, we would occasionally

Speaker 5 have interaction with him.

Speaker 5 The last time I saw him was at my wedding.

Speaker 5 But,

Speaker 5 you know, we didn't have a lot of contact with him. He

Speaker 5 refused to pay alimony.

Speaker 5 And, you know, my mother would take him to court and he would say he was going to pay and then he never would. And she finally just gave up on it and just said,

Speaker 5 I'll just work three jobs.

Speaker 4 What was the typical

Speaker 4 interaction like between you and him?

Speaker 5 Usually relatively brief, but I remember one time he took us to see a movie,

Speaker 5 that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 Never any prolonged interactions.

Speaker 5 But, you know, I wasn't angry with him.

Speaker 5 You know, I just

Speaker 5 didn't didn't for a number of years understand

Speaker 5 what the relationship was. I didn't know that.

Speaker 5 I didn't know about his other family until some years after the divorce. My mother kind of

Speaker 5 shielded us from that.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 You know, even though as a child I prayed all the time that they would get back together,

Speaker 5 later on in life I understood why God never answered that prayer in the affirmative because,

Speaker 5 you know, he was involved with drugs and alcohol and women and things that would not have been a good influence on me.

Speaker 4 You know, there's a...

Speaker 4 There's a lot of kids growing up in poverty and a lot of people stuck in poverty today. And,

Speaker 4 you know, i think um

Speaker 4 i think a lot of them don't

Speaker 4 don't see a way out or maybe they're never even exposed to

Speaker 4 what

Speaker 4 what else is out there what it could be i mean i did i didn't grow up in poverty but but i have spent a lot of time in the military and contracting for the agency that took me to some of the poorest places in the world

Speaker 4 And,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 I've always been very fascinated with

Speaker 4 how people live and

Speaker 4 in extreme situations like that or extreme to me. And so, you know, being in Yemen or Afghanistan and seeing,

Speaker 4 seeing people that

Speaker 4 live like it's almost like biblical times or, you know,

Speaker 4 haven't really evolved much for thousands of years, still living in mud huts, burning trash to keep warm. I mean,

Speaker 4 they don't really get the snapshot of what a typical,

Speaker 4 what Western life is like.

Speaker 4 But some of them still make it out. And I think, I mean, I don't know, but

Speaker 4 I think it may be the same in

Speaker 4 poverty in the U.S. Maybe they don't get the snapshot of what

Speaker 4 they just think this is it. This is how it is.
This is what it's like everywhere. And is that is I mean, is that kind of what it's like?

Speaker 5 I think it's different for different people. It's a matter of perspective.
You know, one of the things my mother used to do

Speaker 5 is

Speaker 5 take us

Speaker 5 to the homes that she cleaned.

Speaker 5 And they were usually grand homes, beautiful neighborhoods. And

Speaker 5 then she'd bring us back to where we live and point out the

Speaker 5 drunk sitting on the corner with a bag drinking out like nobody knew what he was doing.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 she would say, you have a choice.

Speaker 5 Do you rather live there?

Speaker 5 where I work

Speaker 5 or on that corner drinking from a bag.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 she always pointed out those contrasts and

Speaker 5 the fact that it's your choice.

Speaker 5 It's not, nothing is written in stone that you have to go down one lane or the other. You get to make a choice.

Speaker 5 And understanding that

Speaker 5 I think made a huge difference for both myself and my brother.

Speaker 5 In fact, I always say if

Speaker 5 everybody had my mother, I don't think we'd have any problems.

Speaker 5 And I think it's so important

Speaker 5 for children, no matter where they're born and no matter what their social circumstances,

Speaker 5 to see

Speaker 5 other perspectives.

Speaker 5 You know, one of the things they do, for instance, in New Zealand, which is sort of isolated out there in the ocean,

Speaker 5 is they require the children

Speaker 5 in their latter part of high school to go overseas

Speaker 5 somewhere to see

Speaker 5 other parts of the world and how people live.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the poorest people in the United States

Speaker 5 live much better than a lot of people in the world.

Speaker 5 You know, my wife and I have been to 68 countries and we've lived overseas

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 we've seen a lot of stuff and it does make a big difference.

Speaker 4 Where did you live overseas?

Speaker 5 Australia.

Speaker 4 What were you doing there?

Speaker 5 Well, when I was chief resident in neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins, we had the grand opening of the Neuroscience Center.

Speaker 5 And since Hopkins is like the martin birthplace of neurosurgery, all the big wigs from around the world were there, including one of the big wigs from Australia.

Speaker 5 And he took a liking to me and said, you should come to Australia to be our senior registrar at a major teaching hospital in Western Australia. And I said, Australia, you gotta be kidding.

Speaker 5 I didn't say that out loud.

Speaker 5 That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I kind of poo-pooed the idea. And it seemed like every time I turned around, there was somebody saying, good eye, Mike.
How you going? I just kept running to Australians everywhere.

Speaker 5 And it seemed like they were really nice people.

Speaker 5 And every time we turned the TV on, there was a special on about Australia. And I said to Candy, I think the Lord wants us to go to Australia.
So she started doing some research.

Speaker 5 She discovered that they did have a whites-only policy, but it was an unofficial policy and it had officially been abolished in 1968.

Speaker 5 That was 1983.

Speaker 5 So we said, yeah, we're going to go to Australia. And off we went.
Our friends were saying, you'll be back in three weeks. But little did they know, we only

Speaker 5 didn't have any more money. We couldn't come back.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 you know, the biggest problem was keeping up with all the dinner invitations.

Speaker 5 They love Americans.

Speaker 5 But it turned out to be a God thing because there were only four neurosurgical consultants in all of Western Australia.

Speaker 5 And once they discovered that I could operate,

Speaker 5 you know, they left me largely in charge of things at the major teaching hospital and they went out to the private hospitals.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I learned a lot from each one of them. There were things that they taught me that I had not learned at Hopkins.

Speaker 5 But I was doing multiple major craniotomies every day. I got an enormous amount of experience doing complex cases.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 when I came back to Hopkins, the position opened up for director of pediatric neurosurgery. Normally they would go out and get somebody with a lot of gray hair and a big resume.

Speaker 5 But, you know, Dr. Long said,

Speaker 5 well, Ben is only 33 years old, but he can do everything.

Speaker 5 So I became chief pediatric nurse surgeon at a very young age.

Speaker 5 But I had been prepared for that by going to Australia.

Speaker 4 68 other countries.

Speaker 5 We have done a lot of traveling.

Speaker 4 Mostly vacation, professional life?

Speaker 5 A combination, a combination of both.

Speaker 4 Where's your favorite place?

Speaker 5 United States of America.

Speaker 4 Second to that.

Speaker 5 Probably Australia.

Speaker 5 I enjoyed Australia a lot. We still have friends over there that we communicate with.

Speaker 5 And they've been over here to visit with us.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 also enjoyed South Africa. I've been there several times.

Speaker 4 What brought you to South Africa?

Speaker 5 Separating twins.

Speaker 5 We

Speaker 5 separated a couple of sets of twins in South Africa.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 You know, being a neurosurgeon,

Speaker 4 what are your thoughts on Neuralink?

Speaker 5 Well, you know, Elon Musk is an amazing person.

Speaker 5 And I think

Speaker 5 Neuralink has

Speaker 5 some real potential. Obviously, it's in its infancy right now.

Speaker 5 But of course...

Speaker 5 Any good thing, we always find a way to pervert it also.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 we obviously are going to have to be very careful with the way that we manipulate the human brain.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it's the same thing with

Speaker 5 virtual reality and AI.

Speaker 5 Obviously there are wonderful things that can be done with them.

Speaker 5 But anytime you have a new technology, people are going to try to use it in nefarious ways in order to enrich themselves. So we just have to be very careful.

Speaker 4 What are some ways that you think that

Speaker 4 Neuralink could become perverted?

Speaker 5 Militarily

Speaker 5 you could

Speaker 5 program people to

Speaker 5 be

Speaker 5 without a conscience

Speaker 5 and to act without a conscience

Speaker 5 and to become killing machines.

Speaker 5 I think that's a real possibility.

Speaker 4 How would that work?

Speaker 5 You would basically be able to control

Speaker 5 their emotions

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 tell them what to do.

Speaker 5 And they would do it

Speaker 5 without second thoughts about it.

Speaker 5 And, you know, they could be programmed

Speaker 5 to steal things,

Speaker 5 to do a whole bunch of things that

Speaker 5 people who are morally conscious would not do.

Speaker 4 What are some positives?

Speaker 5 You could create a lot of Mother Teresa

Speaker 5 and people who would just be programmed to do good things and to always be looking out

Speaker 5 for others.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 you could also program people to become math wizards

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 very proficient at

Speaker 5 technical things.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you know, I

Speaker 5 have mixed feelings about

Speaker 5 that kind of technology.

Speaker 5 And of course, I don't think we

Speaker 5 even understand the possibilities of what we can do. But things like that, a lot of it will become more apparent as it's starting to be used.

Speaker 4 Would you like to see it move forward?

Speaker 5 I would prefer to see us spend more time

Speaker 5 cultivating the best of people by bringing them up the right way,

Speaker 5 having the right influences in their lives,

Speaker 5 bringing

Speaker 5 church and morality back.

Speaker 5 having a revival in our system,

Speaker 5 encouraging people to prepare themselves academically,

Speaker 5 creating the can-do attitude in America as opposed to the what can you do attitude.

Speaker 5 Because I believe that the potential that exists in each human being is absolutely enormous if it's cultivated the correct way.

Speaker 5 I think anybody who has a normal brain can do almost anything

Speaker 5 if that brain is is programmed in the appropriate way.

Speaker 4 You don't believe in limitations.

Speaker 5 Well, there probably are some limitations, but

Speaker 5 they're nowhere near as low as we place them.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think you can take a normal child,

Speaker 5 and I think you can make that person into

Speaker 5 a nuclear physicist.

Speaker 5 You just have to train them the right way. The brain has the capacity to do that.

Speaker 4 Have you looked into

Speaker 4 some of the stuff that's going on with psychedelic therapy?

Speaker 5 Uh no, I really haven't looked into that.

Speaker 4 As far as treating traumatic brain injuries and

Speaker 4 addictions and

Speaker 4 you haven't looked into that?

Speaker 5 No, no. I s I suspect there's probably some interesting things going on there, though.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 all they're doing is discovering some of the capacities, the hidden capacities of the brain.

Speaker 4 Why do you think

Speaker 4 why are those hidden capacities coming out during

Speaker 4 when people are undergoing a psychedelic experience?

Speaker 5 Because during those psychedelic experiences, some of the inhibitory forces

Speaker 5 that block things from happening are removed.

Speaker 5 And you begin to

Speaker 5 see and experience

Speaker 5 things that you might otherwise not.

Speaker 5 Some of which can be quite frightening, and some of which can be very pleasant.

Speaker 4 Do you have any thoughts on

Speaker 4 should we move forward with

Speaker 4 researching that or

Speaker 4 legalizing?

Speaker 5 It doesn't really matter what I think about it. They're going to move forward.

Speaker 5 They can't resist.

Speaker 5 It's part of our

Speaker 5 you know, they say curiosity kill the cat. Well, we got a lot of curiosity and we're just going to keep moving forward with all of these

Speaker 5 interventions of the human brain because it's a vast unexplored territory. It's the reason that I want to go into psychiatry and neurosurgery because the brain is one of the last frontiers.

Speaker 5 I had initially

Speaker 5 I had toyed a little bit with the idea of becoming a cardiothoracic surgery. I said, we know almost everything there is to know already about the heart and the lungs.
We know nothing about the brain.

Speaker 5 And as a medical student, I said,

Speaker 5 you could probably

Speaker 5 make significant contributions

Speaker 5 in neural. It'd be hard to do that in cardiac.

Speaker 4 Where does consciousness live?

Speaker 5 Well, it's in the brain.

Speaker 5 It's in the human brain.

Speaker 5 It is not something that obviously we've been able to quantitate

Speaker 5 or

Speaker 5 understand

Speaker 5 completely.

Speaker 4 But it is clearly there.

Speaker 5 It's at a different level, I think, in human beings than it is in animals.

Speaker 5 And I think it's one of the mechanisms that

Speaker 5 allows us to communicate with God.

Speaker 5 Animals, I don't think, necessarily have the ability to do that.

Speaker 5 And I don't think that we

Speaker 5 utilize our consciousness.

Speaker 5 anywhere close to its capacity.

Speaker 5 I think a human brain that was functioning at capacity

Speaker 5 would be capable of things that are unimaginable to us.

Speaker 4 Do you think all consciousness is located inside the brain or do you think it

Speaker 5 Yeah, I I mean it's

Speaker 5 I don't know how it emanates from the brain and how far it goes

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 you know you've seen it

Speaker 5 people

Speaker 5 who have the ability to,

Speaker 5 if there was a fork on that table over there,

Speaker 5 cause it to move

Speaker 5 without actually touching it.

Speaker 5 They've somehow managed to do that.

Speaker 5 That's part of their stream of consciousness

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 has control of the environment.

Speaker 5 And it's something that we have very little understanding of

Speaker 5 and you know there are people like J.S. Bach

Speaker 5 think about all the music that he was able to produce

Speaker 5 incredible to be able to do a new mass

Speaker 5 or a new cantata

Speaker 5 in a matter of days.

Speaker 5 You think of somebody like

Speaker 5 George Frederick Handel

Speaker 5 to produce the Messiah in three weeks.

Speaker 5 That's just incredible.

Speaker 5 How did they do that?

Speaker 5 It's hard to explain.

Speaker 4 What do you find most fascinating about the human mind?

Speaker 5 I think the ability for it to

Speaker 5 change people's lives.

Speaker 5 The fact that you can take somebody who

Speaker 5 is moving in the wrong direction

Speaker 5 and they can undergo a conversion experience

Speaker 5 that makes them into a different person.

Speaker 5 But are they really a different person? They have the same arms and legs and the heart and lung.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 it's the brain, it's the mind that has changed them, that has made them into a different person.

Speaker 5 No other part of the body does that.

Speaker 5 That's why we spend so much time,

Speaker 5 my wife and I,

Speaker 5 trying to provide opportunities for children.

Speaker 5 That's why we created the Carson Scholars Fund.

Speaker 5 That's why we have the Little Patriots component of the American Cornerstone Institute.

Speaker 5 Because we know that if

Speaker 5 you can positively affect the mind,

Speaker 5 the brain of a young person, you can change the trajectory of their life.

Speaker 4 Let's move into

Speaker 5 politics.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 what was it, I mean,

Speaker 4 you obviously had an extremely successful career in the medical field.

Speaker 5 And so what was it that

Speaker 4 why did you feel called to leave that and to get into politics?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 you know, somebody told me that neurosurgeons die early.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I didn't believe it. So I wrote down the name of the 10,

Speaker 5 the last 10 neurosurgeons that I knew who died.

Speaker 5 And I calculate the average age of death and it was 61.

Speaker 5 And I said,

Speaker 5 I'm going to retire when I turn 61 if I'm still alive.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 that same year I was asked to speak at the Presidential Prayer Breakfast as the keynote speaker.

Speaker 5 Which I thought was very strange because I had spoken at the National Prayer Breakfast in 1997 when Bill Clinton was president. I didn't know anybody ever did it twice.

Speaker 5 But I did some research and found out that there was one person who had done it twice, and that was Billy Graham.

Speaker 5 I said, That's pretty good company. So I agreed to do it.

Speaker 5 And after that speech, everybody was saying, You should run for president.

Speaker 5 I said, These people are crazy.

Speaker 5 Why would I do something like that?

Speaker 5 But I figured if I just ignored them, it would go away. But it didn't go away.
Every place I went, there were people with placards. Ron Ben Ron had over 500,000 petitions in my office.

Speaker 5 And I finally just said, Lord, you know, I don't want to run for president. But if you really want me to,

Speaker 5 You have to give me all the things that a person who runs for president has. A Rolodex with all the important names, an organization, a lot of money.

Speaker 5 Next thing I knew, all those things were there.

Speaker 5 Our organization was raising more money than the RNC.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it was a fascinating experience. As I got out on the road, traveled to the smallest little hamlets.

Speaker 5 in Tennessee or Alabama to the largest cities.

Speaker 5 I was impressed by the fact that most of the American populace has common sense.

Speaker 5 But I was disappointed that most of them did not have courage.

Speaker 5 Those people

Speaker 5 were not willing to stand up for what they believed in. They wanted to go along, to get along.
They didn't want to be canceled.

Speaker 5 And I realized that that was a problem for our country.

Speaker 4 How did you figure that out?

Speaker 4 How did you figure out that the majority of people don't have courage?

Speaker 5 By talking to them,

Speaker 5 by asking them, why aren't you doing something about this? Because people realized that our country was moving in the wrong direction.

Speaker 5 But very few people were willing to do anything about it, to stand up for it.

Speaker 5 That's in the process of changing. We saw the manifestation of that in this election.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 it required a lot of people to be out there beating the bushes.

Speaker 5 And that's why we were out there beating the bushes.

Speaker 5 And we'll continue to do so because we still have a ways to go. We're a heavily divided country

Speaker 5 and we've lost a lot of our moral compass.

Speaker 5 You know, things like traditional marriage

Speaker 5 are not occurring anymore

Speaker 5 or occurring late.

Speaker 5 We're not having children. In 1960,

Speaker 5 the average woman had 3.6 children. Now we're down to 1.6.

Speaker 5 That's a problem.

Speaker 5 You know, in terms of traditional nuclear families, all you have to do is look at television for five minutes.

Speaker 5 Any new series that comes on before they introduce an alternative to the traditional nuclear family?

Speaker 5 The values, all of our values are being questioned

Speaker 5 and people are being driven apart.

Speaker 4 What happens?

Speaker 4 If we continue down the trajectory of a 1.6 birth rate per family,

Speaker 5 What is the math on that? Well, we become irrelevant.

Speaker 4 How fast?

Speaker 5 Hard to say.

Speaker 5 But probably pretty quickly. You see

Speaker 5 how much we've changed as a country just in the last 30 years.

Speaker 5 Things are going on now that no one would have imagined 30 years ago.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 sometimes the country is hardly recognizable anymore.

Speaker 5 But I don't think that's the way that the majority of Americans want it to be.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 one of the things that

Speaker 5 we've been trying to do is get people to wake up, particularly

Speaker 5 people of faith.

Speaker 5 It doesn't have to be

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 we're denigrating marriage anymore.

Speaker 5 It doesn't have to be that we're mutilating little children

Speaker 5 and taking advantage of the fact that they're very suggestible

Speaker 5 and very curious

Speaker 5 and doing things to them that will ruin their lives forever.

Speaker 5 Those things don't have to be. We don't have to have men playing in women's sports.

Speaker 5 All of these things are eroding our moral fabric and that's exactly

Speaker 5 what those who want to fundamentally change us want. If you look at the

Speaker 5 congressional record from January the 10th 1963 Congressman Herlong of Florida read into the congressional record the 45 goals of communism in America.

Speaker 5 And they included all of those things.

Speaker 5 Gaining control of the schools and the teacher union so you could indoctrinate the kids, gaining control of the media in Hollywood so that you could change the culture of America,

Speaker 5 making

Speaker 5 sexual perversion normal, natural, and healthy, denigrating the role of the family, elevating the role of government.

Speaker 5 It's all in there.

Speaker 5 And we need to understand that we're under attack and we have to fight back.

Speaker 4 Who do you think is orchestrating all of this?

Speaker 5 There have been people who have been opposed to the American way and American values since the very beginning.

Speaker 5 The Europeans

Speaker 5 thought that we were crazy. They said, you can't run a nation on the will of the people.
You have to have a monarch. You have to have a ruler.

Speaker 5 But in today's world, we have to

Speaker 5 contend with the factions that still believe that socialism and communism is a better way of life.

Speaker 5 That

Speaker 5 you give control of your life over to others who will guarantee that they will take care of you from the cradle to the grave.

Speaker 5 Even Even though it's never worked anywhere else,

Speaker 5 there are still those who push that and will continue to push it. And they've gained a lot of momentum.

Speaker 5 You can see how a lot of the college students

Speaker 5 seem to be taking

Speaker 5 that as something that is good.

Speaker 5 And I don't think that they really understand

Speaker 5 what socialism and communism is.

Speaker 5 and they don't really understand how good they have it in this country and what the opportunities are in this country for success

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 we have to continue to fight that fight

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 bring people to the point where they actually will look at the data

Speaker 5 will look at what has happened historically,

Speaker 5 we'll look around them and see

Speaker 5 who really has their best interest in mind and who is utilizing them.

Speaker 5 And I think that's a fight that's worth engaging in.

Speaker 4 What do you think the most effective way to fight this is?

Speaker 5 Education.

Speaker 5 One of the things that

Speaker 5 you'll notice that the leftists in this country do is they shield people from information.

Speaker 5 You'll notice that the mainstream media

Speaker 5 did a very good job of keeping people away

Speaker 5 from the knowledge of what was going on.

Speaker 5 I remember coming back from the airport

Speaker 5 and I asked the Limmel driver what his thoughts were about

Speaker 5 Hunter Biden's computer, his laptop. He didn't know anything about it.

Speaker 5 Because

Speaker 5 he listens to the wrong news sources. Didn't know.
It was a complete shock to

Speaker 5 hear about that.

Speaker 5 And a lot of these children that you see on these campuses

Speaker 5 rallying for Hamas.

Speaker 5 and against Israel.

Speaker 5 They don't know anything. They're shouting about the river to the sea.
They don't know what river. They don't know what sea.

Speaker 5 They don't know what the whole conflict is all about.

Speaker 5 They are manipulated because they're ignorant.

Speaker 5 And ignorance is bliss for the left because ignorant people are easy to manipulate.

Speaker 4 What about raising your kids?

Speaker 5 What about...

Speaker 4 I mean, I don't know. I think that one of the ways that

Speaker 4 I think it's gonna be a long turnaround, you know if we turn it around

Speaker 4 It seems like we're doing you know making leaps and bounds right now, but we've seen that pendulum swing really far right and really far left that doesn't seem to see much

Speaker 4 balance right and

Speaker 4 So it's I guess what I'm saying is I believe it's a generational fight

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 just you have three sons.

Speaker 4 How old are your sons?

Speaker 5 41, 39,

Speaker 5 and 37.

Speaker 4 Do they have kids?

Speaker 5 They all have children. Yep.

Speaker 4 And I feel like that

Speaker 4 a lot of parents have abandoned their parental responsibilities.

Speaker 4 for

Speaker 4 social media.

Speaker 5 That has happened.

Speaker 4 They give their kids the phone.

Speaker 4 The phone raises the kid, keeps them occupied so that the parent can be on the phone. And I mean,

Speaker 4 to me, it seems, you know, we need to get back to

Speaker 4 raising your kids, pouring into them, giving them everything you have, teaching them the values, not handing them the phone.

Speaker 5 No question about it

Speaker 5 and that that's the the reason that my my wife and I wrote our last book

Speaker 5 the perilous fight

Speaker 5 the

Speaker 5 attack on the American family combating it

Speaker 5 and we talk about the fact that parents have to take back that responsibility You can't leave that to

Speaker 5 the rest of the world, including social media, or you will suffer the consequences of it.

Speaker 5 You know, we only have one grandchild right now who's an adolescent,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 she's wanting a cell phone and the parents are not giving her one. They say maybe a flip phone.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 they fully recognize the deleterious effects of social media, which has other objectives other than raising patriotic,

Speaker 5 successful individuals.

Speaker 4 I'm curious to know, you know,

Speaker 4 what is

Speaker 4 your best piece of advice

Speaker 4 on just being a good father?

Speaker 5 Well, the very best piece of advice would be

Speaker 5 to strengthen your relationship with God.

Speaker 5 You know,

Speaker 5 I don't want to preach,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 I have a very strong

Speaker 5 faith in God.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 He's answered so many of my requests,

Speaker 5 including a request for wisdom and direction.

Speaker 5 When sometimes the way looks murky,

Speaker 5 which way to go?

Speaker 5 He's never let me down.

Speaker 5 But when you have that relationship with God,

Speaker 5 it automatically

Speaker 5 improves your relationship with other people.

Speaker 5 including your spouse and your children.

Speaker 5 And you begin to understand the responsibilities that you have particularly as a role model as a protector

Speaker 5 as a provider

Speaker 4 and so

Speaker 4 how do they build that relationship with god i mean i just figured it out

Speaker 4 about a year and a half ago

Speaker 4 And it's totally changed my life.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 I think for people that are new to it, they need a little bit more than strengthen the relationship. How do they communicate with God? How do they build a relationship with God?

Speaker 5 What God tells you in the Bible, he says,

Speaker 5 you will find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Speaker 5 You've got to look for him.

Speaker 5 He's not going to force himself on you.

Speaker 5 But the word is there.

Speaker 5 There are other people there.

Speaker 5 But if you're looking earnestly for that relationship, you'll find it.

Speaker 5 There's no one-size-fits-all.

Speaker 5 You just have to know that you want it and to seek it. And I need to seek the bathroom once again.

Speaker 5 All right.

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Speaker 4 I know everybody out there has to be

Speaker 4 just as frustrated as I am when it comes to the BS and the rhetoric that the mainstream media continuously tries to force feed us.

Speaker 4 And I also know how frustrating it can be to try to find some type of a reliable news source. It's getting really hard to find the truth and what's going on in the country and in the world.

Speaker 4 And so one thing we've done here at Sean Ryan Show is we are developing our newsletter. And the first contributor to the newsletter that we have is a woman, former CIA Targeter.

Speaker 4 Some of you may know her as Sarah Adams, call sign super bad. She's made two different appearances here on the Sean Ryan show.

Speaker 4 And some of the stuff that she has uncovered and

Speaker 4 broke on this show is just absolutely mind-blowing. And so I've asked her if she would

Speaker 4 contribute to the newsletter and give us a weekly intelligence brief.

Speaker 4 So it's going to be all things terrorists: how terrorists are coming up through the southern border, how they're entering the country, how they're traveling, what these different terrorist organizations throughout the world are up to.

Speaker 4 And here's the best part: the newsletter is actually free.

Speaker 3 We're not going to spam you.

Speaker 4 It's about one newsletter a week, maybe two if we release two shows. The only other thing that's going to be in there besides the Intel brief is if we have a new product or something like that.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 4 like I said, it's a free CIA intelligence brief. Sign up.
Links in the description or in the comments. We'll see you in the newsletter.

Speaker 4 All right. We're back from the break.
And we were talking about, we're talking about faith. We were talking about how to find God, where to look, stuff like that.

Speaker 4 Let's get back into some politics stuff. So When you decided to run for president,

Speaker 4 we'd already kind of established earlier that

Speaker 4 criticism doesn't bother you. You paid no attention to it.

Speaker 4 Did you have any fear of the smear campaigns or anything like that for your family's sake? Was that a big decision for you?

Speaker 5 Well, you know, my wife wasn't particularly

Speaker 5 enthusiastic at first until the grandchildren started coming along.

Speaker 5 And then she realized that we have to do this for their sake,

Speaker 5 for their

Speaker 5 future possibilities.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 certainly you don't want your family to be adversely affected. And, you know, particularly one of my sons

Speaker 5 is very entrepreneurial.

Speaker 5 We don't want his opportunities to be affected.

Speaker 5 I think we all came to the understanding that

Speaker 5 we're working for the well-being of our country.

Speaker 5 And sometimes you have to sacrifice in order to do that.

Speaker 4 How long did it take for her to

Speaker 4 get on board with you?

Speaker 5 It didn't take very long once the grandchildren started popping out.

Speaker 5 I remember

Speaker 4 it was the presidential debate. in 2016 when the announcer skipped over your name and

Speaker 4 Donald Trump waited and walked out with you. It looked like you guys were having some type of a conversation.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, that really showed what kind of person he is because all the others gleefully walked by

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 he came and stood by me and waited until the situation was rectified.

Speaker 5 He also was the only of the other candidates who complained to the media that they weren't asking me questions.

Speaker 5 Everybody else was glad they weren't asking me questions.

Speaker 4 Why weren't they asking you questions?

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 5 I think maybe they were afraid to give me too much attention.

Speaker 4 Why?

Speaker 5 Because they knew that I had good answers.

Speaker 5 You know, they complained. They said,

Speaker 5 you don't know enough about foreign affairs. I did a one-hour press conference in South Carolina with all the major media.
There were a lot of them there.

Speaker 5 Answered every single question.

Speaker 5 They never said a thing about it.

Speaker 4 What is it about you you think that they did not want you in there?

Speaker 5 I think they were afraid that particularly a lot of the people that they count on,

Speaker 5 many of the minorities and disadvantaged people,

Speaker 5 would identify with me and it would impact their base in a very negative way for them.

Speaker 4 You're probably really onto something there.

Speaker 4 You know, there's more, it seems like, I hope so, but

Speaker 4 it seems like more and more good people are starting to get into politics.

Speaker 4 Not saying a lot, but

Speaker 4 a lot of

Speaker 4 my veteran friends are starting to get involved.

Speaker 4 I've thought about getting involved. I think I have a bigger impact doing what I'm doing now than I ever would running for office.

Speaker 4 But I see them doing it. My good friend Eli Crane, he's in there.

Speaker 4 I mean, there's a lot of veterans, you know, getting involved. And so

Speaker 4 I'm curious, what advice do you have

Speaker 4 for

Speaker 4 anybody

Speaker 4 who wants to get involved and wants to run? I mean, because it is also, I mean, it's,

Speaker 4 I mean, it's a daunting task. I mean, it seems like you're going up against the impossible.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, first of all,

Speaker 5 recognize that our nation was formed, of form by the people.

Speaker 5 And that the government works with the people, not the other way around.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think many people are starting to come to that understanding now.

Speaker 5 Many of these people that you just talked about who are running,

Speaker 5 it takes a lot of courage to do it.

Speaker 5 You have to be willing

Speaker 5 to sacrifice

Speaker 5 yourself

Speaker 5 and your family. There's no question about that.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 the rewards are also great

Speaker 5 in that you bring the issues to the forefront if you're a good politician.

Speaker 5 And you really work on behalf of the people,

Speaker 5 fully recognizing that there are many people in the system who are not good people,

Speaker 5 who are doing things

Speaker 5 only to enhance their own position,

Speaker 5 to enhance their own wealth. It's no coincidence that many of the people

Speaker 5 who get into

Speaker 5 our government come in as people of moderate means and end as multi-millionaires

Speaker 5 on the salary of a government worker. Obviously, there's some things going on there that aren't kosher.

Speaker 5 But to be on the other side of that, to actually represent the people,

Speaker 5 is a great thing.

Speaker 5 And it's why we've been able to survive all of this time.

Speaker 5 As you remember, Ben Franklin, after the

Speaker 5 1787 Constitutional Convention, was asked, sir, what do we have here, a monarchy or republic? He said, a republic if you can keep it.

Speaker 5 The only way we can keep it is to have people who are willing to undergo that self-sacrifice

Speaker 5 and to make themselves truly the representatives

Speaker 5 of that which is good for the people.

Speaker 4 You got involved. Well, we didn't get involved.

Speaker 4 You walked into the HUD

Speaker 4 with no government experience.

Speaker 4 Can you tell us a little bit about

Speaker 4 what that was like? How long did it take you to get...

Speaker 5 I got a lot of government experience very quickly

Speaker 5 because

Speaker 5 it was eight months. before I had a deputy secretary.

Speaker 5 It was five months before I had any assistant secretaries. So every day was like drinking from the fire hydrant.

Speaker 5 And I didn't have a lot of buffer in between.

Speaker 5 So you had to learn stuff very, very quickly.

Speaker 5 And there were some people early on who were not the best people. Let's just put it that way.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 once

Speaker 5 we got our assistant secretaries and deputy secretary in place and

Speaker 5 surrounded ourselves with very confident and good people, we were able to move very rapidly.

Speaker 5 As I mentioned earlier,

Speaker 5 the fiscal situation was pretty bad when I got there.

Speaker 5 No audits for eight years.

Speaker 5 And you always heard these horrible stories about the fiscal mismanagement at HUD and how money was missing and nobody knew where it was.

Speaker 5 You probably noticed that stopped about a year and a half into the Trump administration because we got it all straightened out. We were able to get Irv Dennis, who was a

Speaker 5 senior at Ernst ⁇ Young, senior partner.

Speaker 5 And he was reluctant at first, but

Speaker 5 we bugged him until he finally agreed to come

Speaker 5 and to get the stuff under control it made a huge difference once we were able to do that

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 you know the real key for a secretary of any of the agencies is not necessarily to know everything

Speaker 5 But it's to put people around you

Speaker 5 who together know everything and to work closely with them

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 you know to be able to take information

Speaker 5 and to use it in an effective way and that's that's where wisdom comes I'd rather have somebody who's very wise than somebody who's a know-it-all and is not wise

Speaker 4 you said

Speaker 4 poverty is a state of mind and that ruffled a lot of feathers how did you i mean

Speaker 4 did i guess maybe i guess maybe it didn't bother you because you don't respond to criticism so

Speaker 5 well you know if you have

Speaker 5 a victor's men's mentality

Speaker 5 it doesn't matter what happens to you you'll rise to the top

Speaker 5 uh

Speaker 5 you know they can take everything away from you And you'll go from the C-suite to the street. But if you have a victor's mentality, you'll be right back up there before long.

Speaker 5 If you have a victim's mentality, I can dust you off and put a three-piece suit on you and put you in the C-Street, and you'll find your way back down.

Speaker 5 That's what I meant by that.

Speaker 4 So, let's talk about what you're doing now. We started talking about some of the stuff, but tell me about the

Speaker 4 American cornerstone.

Speaker 5 Well, you know,

Speaker 5 as I mentioned before, I decided I wanted to retire at 61.

Speaker 5 I failed that retirement. But after the first Trump administration, I said, this time I'm really going to be the retire.

Speaker 5 But it wasn't many weeks

Speaker 5 after that election, seeing the direction that we were going in with the Biden administration.

Speaker 5 I said, I can't have any fun playing golf all day and cruising around the world and watching my country go down the tubes.

Speaker 5 So myself and some very talented people from HUD

Speaker 5 started the American Cornerstone Institute, which emphasizes the cornerstone principles that made us into a great country.

Speaker 5 You know, we didn't go from a bunch of ragtag militiamen to the pinnacle of the world by accident. It was because of what we believed in, and that was our faith.

Speaker 5 which teaches us how to relate to each other. Our Judeo-Christian values say love your neighbor.

Speaker 5 Not cancel your neighbor if they have a different yard sign or you disagree with them, but love your neighbor.

Speaker 5 The second cornerstone being liberty. The freedom to live the life that you want to live

Speaker 5 one way or the other, as long as it doesn't interfere with other people.

Speaker 5 And that liberty is what has attracted so many people from all over the world.

Speaker 5 And those who try to say that we're a horrible country, that we're racist systemically, that we don't treat people fairly. If that were true, why would all these people be trying to get in here?

Speaker 5 Obviously, that's not true.

Speaker 5 And then the next cornerstone is community.

Speaker 5 You know, the ability to live together, to work together, to be happy together.

Speaker 5 That was one of the things that gave America a huge advantage

Speaker 5 and one of the reasons that we rose to the top so quickly. And if we abandon that sense of community, we will sink just as rapidly.

Speaker 5 And then the fourth cornerstone, life.

Speaker 5 Honoring life

Speaker 5 from the womb to the tomb.

Speaker 5 And that means not only being pro-life and respecting

Speaker 5 what God has created,

Speaker 5 but also caring about those people on the street, many of whom are drug addicts, many of whom are mentally ill, can't take care of themselves.

Speaker 5 We have a responsibility to deal with that, and it can't be just housing first. 90% of those people end up back on the street.
It has to be also housing second. Why are they on the street?

Speaker 5 And housing third, fix it.

Speaker 5 You know, most of those drug addicts who are out there, if they could push a button and they wouldn't be a drug addict anymore, they'd wear that button out.

Speaker 5 But it's not that simple.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we have to be willing to deal with that. We

Speaker 5 were, in fact, on the verge of a very exciting program.

Speaker 5 in Los Angeles. I was working with Garcetti, who was the mayor,

Speaker 5 with Newsom, the governor, with several of the county executives,

Speaker 5 to basically take care of the homelessness problem.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think it would have worked.

Speaker 5 But just before we pull the trigger, guess what happened?

Speaker 5 COVID.

Speaker 5 Everything was off the table.

Speaker 5 But I do believe it is very possible for Democrats and Republicans to work together to solve these problems.

Speaker 4 How were you going to tackle that problem?

Speaker 5 Basically by using some of the government land.

Speaker 5 And in California at that time, there was a $200 billion surplus. They've squandered it now

Speaker 5 to provide...

Speaker 5 some of the ancillary

Speaker 5 services, particularly for the mentally ill. I talked to the head of the American Psychiatric Society.
He said the vast majority of those people

Speaker 5 with regular counseling care and medications can become very functional.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the same thing with the drug addicts.

Speaker 5 But if you don't provide the ancillary services, it'll never happen. And you just continue to accumulate more and more of those individuals.

Speaker 5 And the other thing that we would do is relax many of the regulations that prevent you from doing that.

Speaker 4 Does California have the

Speaker 4 highest homeless population, the largest homeless population,

Speaker 4 and the majority of them are mentally ill?

Speaker 5 About

Speaker 5 anywhere from 40 to 60 percent are there because of mental illness or drug addiction.

Speaker 4 Why Why do you think there's such a high concentration of mentally ill in that state?

Speaker 5 Well, consider the population that they have.

Speaker 5 You know, 30-plus million people.

Speaker 5 You know, that's 10%

Speaker 5 of our population. So that's why they have the highest numbers.

Speaker 5 I don't think there's anything special about... California

Speaker 5 other than the fact that

Speaker 5 they tolerate a lot of stuff

Speaker 5 and they don't necessarily

Speaker 5 prosecute

Speaker 5 the people who distribute the drugs vigorously.

Speaker 4 How are you getting the message out about American Cornerstone?

Speaker 5 I do a lot of lectures. We have a very significant social media presence.

Speaker 5 And that's primarily the way we get it out.

Speaker 4 Where do you do the lectures?

Speaker 5 All over the country.

Speaker 5 And I talk about it in

Speaker 5 many of the venues we go to. I'll talk about it tomorrow night in South Carolina.

Speaker 5 I'll talk about it next week in the places where we are doing

Speaker 5 things for

Speaker 5 Charlie Kirk's organization.

Speaker 5 I've been very impressed with the young people at the various universities with the turning point program. They're very interested in

Speaker 5 what we're talking about.

Speaker 4 Do you talk about this in improvised neighborhoods at all?

Speaker 4 Lower income neighborhoods?

Speaker 5 People from lower income neighborhoods are are able to come to the talks

Speaker 5 in many cases. Yes.

Speaker 5 And then I have done a number of things that are on the internet

Speaker 5 or on YouTube that they have access to.

Speaker 4 What's the response been?

Speaker 5 I get a lot of letters and correspondence from people who

Speaker 5 are very grateful.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 that's why we keep doing it.

Speaker 5 It would be much easier just to sit back and relax and put our feet up.

Speaker 4 Well, Dr. Carson, it's been

Speaker 4 an honor to talk to you here.

Speaker 4 And so I kind of want to close this out, but in closing,

Speaker 4 what would you like to see the majority of Americans do? What's the one thing?

Speaker 5 I would like for them to recognize that we are not enemies.

Speaker 5 W-A-N-E Wayne, we are not enemies. Don't allow anybody

Speaker 5 to make you think that just because somebody disagrees with you, that they're your enemy.

Speaker 5 Our strength in the past has come from the fact that we have learned to overcome our differences and work together.

Speaker 5 And if we can bring that sense back,

Speaker 5 our strength will be unlimited.

Speaker 4 Why aren't you going to be in President Trump's cabinet this time around?

Speaker 5 Well, President Trump and I are still in communication.

Speaker 5 But, you know, I strongly feel that

Speaker 5 we need to move aside

Speaker 5 people who are older

Speaker 5 and push forward people who are younger.

Speaker 5 Because does it make a lot of sense for somebody who's probably not going to be around in 20 years

Speaker 5 to be making policies that will impact people who will be here 20, 30, 40 years from now?

Speaker 5 I think you can work very well in the background

Speaker 5 as an advisor

Speaker 5 and a consultant.

Speaker 4 I mean I would agree with that but on the same token you've got a lot of wisdom that younger people don't have yet and that's

Speaker 5 but we disseminate or we disseminate that

Speaker 5 and sort of like yourself

Speaker 5 what we're doing with American Cornerstone

Speaker 5 with Carson Scholars,

Speaker 5 and various other endeavors,

Speaker 5 I think is

Speaker 5 very supportive of the administration and what they're doing. So

Speaker 5 I still encourage people to go into government. One of the components of American Cornerstone is something we call the Executive Branch for America.

Speaker 5 And it's an online course that you can take that will teach you how the government works, all the ins and outs, how a bill becomes a bill,

Speaker 5 how finances are managed by the government, all the various intricacies.

Speaker 5 Why is that so important?

Speaker 5 Because if you go into government or you're one of the government staffers, it usually takes you a year

Speaker 5 to get acclimated. to what's going on.

Speaker 5 By taking this online course free of charge, by the way,

Speaker 5 you can hit the ground running.

Speaker 5 And we need

Speaker 5 more conservatives in the federal government

Speaker 5 who actually know how things work.

Speaker 4 How do you think the first couple months of the new administration is going?

Speaker 5 I'm enthusiastic

Speaker 5 seeing people.

Speaker 5 actually getting involved with trimming the fat.

Speaker 5 Those who are having the fat trimmed are screaming like wow pigs.

Speaker 5 But, you know,

Speaker 5 if we don't do this, we're going to go bankrupt.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the quality of everybody's life will suffer enormously if that's the case. Some people are able to see that and able to understand that and some people are not.

Speaker 5 But I think we're making good progress.

Speaker 4 I think so too.

Speaker 4 Very hopeful. Well, Dr.
Carson,

Speaker 4 thank you so much.

Speaker 5 Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for being a pleasure.

Speaker 5 My pleasure.

Speaker 4 So, best of luck to you. Thank you.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

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