#251 Secretary Sean Duffy - NASA is Going Back to the Moon for the First Time in 54 Years

Speaker 1 Secretary Sean Duffy, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 It's good to have you. It's good to have you.
It's good to be had. So, yeah, so we were actually supposed to do this, what, about a month ago? A month ago.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination happened, and so we had to push it. And, you know, I just wanted to say that I thought that spoke a lot about your character.

Speaker 1 I know you guys were friends, and it sounds like he was closer with your wife than you, but

Speaker 1 a lot of people in politics would have loved to have come on the show and made it all about them with that going on.

Speaker 1 And so to see, you know, to get that message that you just wanted to go and be with the family and be supportive. I mean, that's what this fucking country is all about.
It's nice to see that.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 it happened.

Speaker 2 And then the next day I was supposed to be with you. I was supposed to leave moments after the shooting.
And

Speaker 2 you were generous to say, we'll push it. We're good, which I'm grateful for that.
And we made this happen. So I appreciate you having me back.
That you took that very well. So thank you.

Speaker 1 My pleasure. My pleasure.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 acting Secretary of Department of Transportation and active secretary of NASA, correct? Or NASA administrator.

Speaker 2 So I'm the Secretary of Transportation and the Acting Administrator of NASA. So I get this short window of time until the president appoints someone into the full-time role.

Speaker 2 And yeah, no, it's been great. It's been busy.

Speaker 1 And really busy. And a husband and a father of nine.
How the hell do you manage all this?

Speaker 2 Sean, I'm grayer than you are.

Speaker 2 Listen,

Speaker 2 it's been a great, it's been a, to serve this president has been really awesome. And then to also be a father and to navigate that back and forth.

Speaker 2 Again, I think our first role as men is to be good fathers. You know, and again, I had this in Congress.

Speaker 2 It's you get a run, you get to serve your country, you do it every two years, you get to pass legislation, you're part of the conversation in a different way.

Speaker 2 I get a huge influence on how America works at DOT. I'm able to set a mission at NASA, all really important stuff.

Speaker 2 But I always think about at the end of life,

Speaker 2 as you sit on your deathbed, what do you think about? Do you think about the bill you passed? Do you think about the road you built? Do you think about the mission that you helped send

Speaker 2 our second effort to get to the moon? Do you think about those things on your deathbed?

Speaker 1 I doubt it.

Speaker 2 I doubt it. You think about your family and what kind of relationship did I have? How did I raise my kids? Those are the people that you have around you.

Speaker 2 And so, as I do all of this, which I'm so grateful that the president has given me this great honor to serve, and I think this is the most historic administration in American history, if at not least

Speaker 2 since the middle of the 1800s and the Civil War.

Speaker 2 To be part of this is an amazing honor. And the fact that we get to do so much so quickly with this president has been very cool.

Speaker 2 But I don't lose focus on the fact that the most important thing is my family.

Speaker 2 And the most meaningful thing to my life and to what I do on this earth is to raise good kids, to hopefully raise them well, not to go to Harvard.

Speaker 2 I always think about what is the mission of kids, not Harvard, but to heaven. That's what we want to do with our kids.

Speaker 1 Man, I love hearing that. I love hearing that.
Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 And we'll get into, so I want to do a life story on you, start from childhood, kind of, you know, talk about where you came from, your road to being secretary and administrator, and in that, you know,

Speaker 1 some fatherhood device. So, um,

Speaker 1 but everybody starts off with an introduction here. So

Speaker 1 got gotta.

Speaker 2 Did I prove the introduction?

Speaker 1 You've got quite the arc here.

Speaker 1 Secretary Sean Duffy.

Speaker 1 20th United States Secretary of Transportation overseeing critical infrastructure, aviation, and automotive policies.

Speaker 1 Also, the interim administrator of NASA, stepping into the role in July of 2025 to guide America's space exploration.

Speaker 1 Competed in the Lumberjack World Championships, a reality TV pioneer having started MTV's The Real World Boston in 1997 and Road Rules All-Stars in 1998, where you met your future wife.

Speaker 1 A former prosecutor serving as district attorney for Ashland County, Wisconsin, a former U.S.

Speaker 1 Congressman representing Wisconsin's 7th district from 2011 to 2019, a media personality and commentator having worked as a CNN

Speaker 1 contributor and co-host of the bottom line on Fox Business, husband of Rachel and father of nine children. And most importantly, you're a Christian.

Speaker 2 Catholic. Yeah, Catholic.
So yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, we had talked about

Speaker 1 how we rescheduled this interview.

Speaker 1 you know, after the Charlie Kirk assassination. And man, just lots of stuff going on in the news right now.
The government shut down.

Speaker 1 I mean, if we're seeing flights delayed, we always see flights delayed.

Speaker 2 We do. But it's going to get better.

Speaker 2 We've had problems, but it can't fix it overnight. But we are going to fix that as we come into the next, you know, two, three, four years.
It's going to be great.

Speaker 1 Perfect. Perfect.
You know, I think something that,

Speaker 1 you know, is kind of on everybody's mind right now is the 3i Atlas object

Speaker 1 that supposedly might be extraterrestrial. You got any thoughts on this? I mean, Polymarket says there's a 4% chance that the interstellar object is confirmed aliens.

Speaker 2 If it walks like a comet, it quacks like a comet, it's probably a comet, I would say, right? So Polymarkets might be a little bit off,

Speaker 2 but we have some great pictures of it.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 we're going to release those pictures, but the government shutdown has, there's a whole bunch of rules that come into play with the shutdown on what we can and can't do.

Speaker 2 And so when we open back up, we're going to send pictures out of

Speaker 2 the comet. And I think everybody will love it, enjoy it.
But yeah, no,

Speaker 2 we feel pretty good that it's not extraterrestrial.

Speaker 1 Is the government going to open back up?

Speaker 2 I think so. Well, that's good.
At some point, well, maybe before Christmas. Maybe before.
But you know what I mean? I think

Speaker 2 we're coming up to some real pain points of SNAP benefits and health care benefits, subsidies that come in that Democrats truly care about. And

Speaker 2 when those benefits don't go out,

Speaker 2 on top of air traffic slowing down throughout the country, because controllers are, listen, we'll maybe talk about this more, but controllers,

Speaker 2 it's oftentimes paycheck to paycheck, and especially the young ones, they're looking at taking other jobs. And so

Speaker 2 there's a number of pain points that I think Democrats are going to have to give up their push to have illegals get healthcare benefits and open the government up and have a conversation and negotiate.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 With this object, going back to that real quick, this, the three eye Atlas object, what is, what is the fear? What's, what's the spend going on about this?

Speaker 2 I think social media can take off and you can have people come out with credibility and make claims.

Speaker 2 But what the claims are and what we have seen at NASA don't match up. Right.
And so

Speaker 2 I think humans love conspiracy theories. Right.
By the way, conspiracy theories these days oftentimes come to be true when we're talking about Democrats. right?

Speaker 2 But this is one that is actually a conspiracy theory. So,

Speaker 2 yeah, I don't know. I think people, I mean, I think people get fascinated with extraterrestrial life and, you know, what's out there.

Speaker 2 And this is one of those issues that people have been able to lean into and let their imaginations

Speaker 2 expand and think it could be something that what we're seeing, it is not.

Speaker 1 It's just a comment.

Speaker 2 It's a comet.

Speaker 1 It's going to pass by, no big deal.

Speaker 2 It's like all the the other ones. Yeah.
But it will have been an exciting time thinking about what it could have been. But it's not, Sean.

Speaker 2 Right on.

Speaker 1 Right on. Well, so got a couple of gifts here for you.
Okay. So

Speaker 1 first off,

Speaker 1 everybody gets these.

Speaker 2 The famous gummies.

Speaker 1 Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears made in the U. Actually, Made in Michigan.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we just had a long talk about Michigan.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Made in Michigan,

Speaker 1 still legal in all 50 states.

Speaker 1 I love it.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 RFK made an exception for us, I guess. And then I got something else for you, too.
So

Speaker 1 this is a little more sentimental. So when I was giving you the studio tour earlier, you had asked about, you know, who put, who gave me that rosary that's up there.

Speaker 1 And I told you that's from my friend Dom Razzo. He's a former SEAL Team 6 guy.
And

Speaker 1 so I told you he makes these rosaries and they call them the Warriors Rosaries for protection. So that is thought you might like that.

Speaker 2 That is beautiful. Thank you.
You're welcome. Those who aren't Catholic, by the way, the power of the rosary, remarkable.

Speaker 2 Great protector.

Speaker 2 Can I give you a gift?

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 So let me give you a little history. So I'm from northern Wisconsin.
And

Speaker 2 at the turn of the last century, end of the 1800s, America is moving westward, right?

Speaker 2 Major expansion throughout the country. And they needed wood

Speaker 2 build the country and all the wood came from northern Michigan and as they moved westward it was northern Wisconsin with these massive white pine stands of timber and these lumberjacks would come through first with axes and then they had revolutions to saws that made them be able to cut faster.

Speaker 2 And so what they would do is they would cut all winter long and they cut in the winter because one, it's pretty rough to cut in the summer and mosquitoes, but they would cut all winter long and they didn't have tractors and trucks.

Speaker 2 They would have to use ice roads to haul all these logs to the river's edge. They would stockpile all the logs on the river's edge all winter long.

Speaker 2 The spring would come and they would dam up the river and they would dump all the logs in the river and they would float them because they didn't have roads.

Speaker 2 They would float them down to a sawmill town and they would saw them up and then distribute it out across the country so we could build America, right?

Speaker 2 And so in northern Wisconsin, we had had the, in my small town where I was born and raised, we had a couple of years where we produced the most board feet of lumber in the whole country.

Speaker 2 So our whole, our communities up there were built around logging and these people that would come in and log and cuddle all winter long.

Speaker 2 And so from that, we've developed these modern day lumberjack sports. And so you might see this on ESPN 7 at four o'clock in the morning, lumberjack sports.

Speaker 2 So it's log rolling, a log in the water where two guys are on it competing against each other to get the other one off. Only rule is you can't cross the center line.

Speaker 2 And as the match goes on, the log gets smaller in diameter, which means it floats lower in the water and spins that much faster. It's log rolling.

Speaker 2 Then we have speed climbing. It's a race up and down.
It's for 60, 90, sometimes on the west coast, it would be 100 feet high, but it's a race up.

Speaker 2 And so it'll take, you know, 16 seconds to get up the tree. And you have just these spurs on your feet and a steel core hemp rope.

Speaker 2 And so you're running vertical up the tree, stepping and throwing, and then you'll hit a line or a cowbell. And then in essence,

Speaker 2 you keep your rope on the tree and you kick your feet out and you'll free fall.

Speaker 2 If you're not great, you can free fall 10 feet, but if you're good, you can free fall, you know, 20, 25 feet at a time.

Speaker 2 So you'll hit the tree with a spur, you know, three, maybe four times coming down, which is kind of, this is is the bull riding of the rodeo. And then we have chopping and sewing.

Speaker 2 And these modern day sports, you might think of a lumberjack as a big, fat, burly, suspender-wearing guy. The guys that compete now, like they're the most amazing athletes.
No kidding. They're just

Speaker 2 rock solid, awesome. So I could give you a pair of log-rolling cleats.
I could give you a steel core hemp rope. I could give you a saw.

Speaker 2 But I thought to give Sean Ryan the great gift of Lumberjack Sports, which by the way, the Lumberjack World Championships are in this small town in northern Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 Every summer, people, it's in so world championships, it's U.S., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. So, I didn't, I'm not going to play you a song because I don't have any music talent.

Speaker 2 But so, we came, we're coming to Nashville, and I had my buddy bring us one of our axes

Speaker 2 from northern Wisconsin. And I thought no better way to carry it than in a

Speaker 2 guitar case. So, this is a like a six, six and a half pound razor-sharp Australian speed axe.
And I mean, you can shave with them.

Speaker 2 And this is what the guys use to just hammer through these pieces of wood. And

Speaker 2 the accuracy at which

Speaker 2 they hit the wood and blow through it is remarkable. And these things are so sharp.
So listen, be careful. Don't cut yourself.

Speaker 1 Wow, look at that.

Speaker 2 And so that's what we use today to

Speaker 2 to compete in lumberjack sports so uh you now have your own competitive speed axe i'm sure is going to find a place of prominence somewhere

Speaker 2 man this is awesome pretty cool obviously thank you

Speaker 2 the little difference is it's americana this is part of american history very cool is um that i think is very cool you want to side a little bit

Speaker 1 put it down there

Speaker 2 Yeah. Thank you.
You're welcome. This is awesome.

Speaker 2 I love it.

Speaker 2 You can go up back.

Speaker 2 If you use it, it'll dull up. You have to have the stone it.
So there you go.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 2 That's awesome. So

Speaker 2 maybe we bring the show. You can come to northern Wisconsin.
We'll take you out on the lake. Maybe come see a Lumberjack World Championships.

Speaker 1 Hell yes. I would love that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Good guys.

Speaker 1 So is that what you competed in?

Speaker 2 So I grew up competing in these sports.

Speaker 2 So I grew up in small town America. Again, this is 19,

Speaker 2 late 70s through the 80s, where it was a different era.

Speaker 2 So all summer long, I would ride my bike from my house to what's called Lumberjack Bowl, where like you might take diving lessons or what lessons people might go play soccer.

Speaker 2 We would go log roll all summer long. And so I'd ride my bike to Lumberjack Bowl and I would have a couple lessons, you know, on a Thursday and a Tuesday and a Thursday or a Monday and a Wednesday.

Speaker 2 But I would spend four days there. We'd get there nine in the morning, we'd stay until two in the afternoon, and we'd just hang out with our friends and we'd log roll all day long.

Speaker 2 So that was my summer. And from there, there was these exhibitions that would travel around the world, around the country, and sometimes the world.
But

Speaker 2 when I was young,

Speaker 2 I would do these exhibitions for lumberjack sports. And it was usually in Wisconsin and Illinois, and I would stay close to home when I was 16 years old.
But we would travel around and

Speaker 2 show these skills of the old-time lumberjack.

Speaker 2 And yeah, so that's, I did that. Then I competed.
I put myself through undergrad and law school by doing these sports. So

Speaker 2 it's a pretty cool part of America.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'll say, man,

Speaker 1 I don't know any lumberjacks. You do now.
I do now.

Speaker 2 But it's, I was, so I can't tell you. So I was doing.

Speaker 1 So is this like what all the kids up there want to do?

Speaker 2 A lot of them do, yeah.

Speaker 2 Not all of them, but we have little pockets around the country. So, you'll see in Idaho, there's a pocket.
In Nova Scotia, Canada, there's a pocket of log rollers.

Speaker 2 And speed climbers, we get a lot of them from the West Coast because now the bigger trees are on the West Coast. And

Speaker 2 the spotted owl affected their ability to log in the West Coast. But we still have a lot of guys who learned how to climb and then they chop.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so, yeah, but I grew up doing this.

Speaker 1 Was this ever a career for you?

Speaker 1 Was this

Speaker 1 sports?

Speaker 2 It was sport, and I also could make money at it. So I would do the competitions, but then I'd also do these exhibitions where I'd travel and get paid to be on the road.

Speaker 2 Driving these, we'd drive these big trucks that had these,

Speaker 2 we'd take

Speaker 2 probably 45-foot trees with us on these extended trailers, and we'd get there, and they would, we'd have the pole company come and put the trees in.

Speaker 2 So we'd climb, we'd build a tank and log roll and then the flatbed trailer would be the stage for the chopping and the sawing and so we'd and it's like a 45 minute road show that we would do and we'd do three shows a day which by the way you get in really good shape i mean you're you're cranking it when you're on the road um so i was i was young and buff and and and tough and i loved it and i saw a lot of a lot of the country by doing the shows um but i went back recently i my wife works for fox and friends and so fox and friends was gonna going to do a segment out of the Lumberjack World Championships for the weekend show.

Speaker 2 And so I brought in these young, you know, speed climbers, you know, they come in there, and I just turned 50. And I'm like, yeah, bring them in.
And

Speaker 2 I'm going to be part of the explanation. Bring them in.
I'm going to be part of the exhibition. And

Speaker 2 all three of us are going to climb for the show. And I'm like, yeah, I'm a little older and fatter than I used to be.
They're going to beat me up, but I still have my down. Like I came down fast.

Speaker 2 And I, to which we climb up and they, yeah, they beat me and I do a bail and try to come down fast like I did when I was, you know, 28 years old.

Speaker 2 And when you come down, you're, I mean, so you have your hands, your hands are around the tree. And by the way, it gets, your hands get so hot.

Speaker 2 You have to get a heat resistant material on the back of your glove. Otherwise you'll burn the back of your hands because your hands are around the rope, but your hands are on the tree.
coming down.

Speaker 2 So I'm swinging to the side,

Speaker 2 my arms up in the air. I hit the pad, which I've done a million times.
This time I'm like, I hit the ground. I'm like, oh my God, son of a man.
I can barely talk.

Speaker 2 I flip and broke my shoulder. Damn.
So the lesson of the story is don't. Welcome to 50.
Don't do what you did in your 28.

Speaker 2 Son of a, son of a gun. Yeah.
So anyway, but it's, but this is, so I grew up, I grew up doing this when I, when I, when I applied for the real world, um, I did a, I did lumberjack videos.

Speaker 2 I was, I was doing lumberjack lumberjack sports. I'd flown to California and I was

Speaker 2 so back in the day, I would turn the camera on. There's no editing.
I'd turn the camera on and I'm like, all right, I'm in Minneapolis leaving law school and I'm going to LA.

Speaker 2 And then I'm like, I'm in L.A. I'm, you know, this is a dirty, shitty city.
And then I went up to the competition that we had.

Speaker 1 And it still is, by the way.

Speaker 2 It still is. It's probably dirtier and more violent than it was back then.
And then I did this, you know, I showed him speed climbing and log rolling and I sent it in.

Speaker 2 And that was, so this was my pathway into reality TV was Lumberjack Sports. Wow.
My pathway to law school, my pathway to see the country.

Speaker 2 So it's like, I love it. It's, again,

Speaker 2 it's this part of America, this America history that I think is so cool.

Speaker 2 And again, the sports are

Speaker 2 the speed at which people can go through a piece of wood. or they can climb up and down a tree.
Or I think the most, the coolest is truly log rolling. I mean,

Speaker 2 the log is flush with the water and two big guys are standing on it and they're going to to town.

Speaker 2 I think most people are like, how in the hell can you stand on the log, you know, if no one was on it, let alone with someone else on it? And

Speaker 2 the skill is

Speaker 2 immense. A lot of people start when they're young and the hand-eye coordination, the balance.

Speaker 2 So anyway, that's, yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 were your parents into this? Were your siblings into this?

Speaker 2 My older siblings were started

Speaker 2 and they would bring us down. But my older brother

Speaker 2 was very much into it. So we'd go down together.
We'd ride our bikes down together. And so he's three years older than I am.
And he focused on log rolling. He was a four-time, five-time.

Speaker 2 He won the

Speaker 2 title that many times in log rolling. He was very good.

Speaker 2 And I couldn't log roll. I never got in the top three.

Speaker 2 But I focused on speed climbing. So I liked the speed climbing.
Again, I said it's a little bit of the bull riding of the rodeo. It's the most exciting sport, I think, in lumberjack sports.

Speaker 2 And so I focused on that and I won the 90-foot race a couple times and the 60-foot three times.

Speaker 2 So yeah,

Speaker 2 it was a great part of my life. I still go back and watch the competitions now.

Speaker 2 It's a really cool part of my life, but also of, I think, American history.

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You should always consult with your financial and tax professionals. Now, do any of your kids...

Speaker 1 Are they involved in any of this?

Speaker 2 The older ones did.

Speaker 1 You have nine kids? Nine kids. Nine kids.

Speaker 2 The older ones log rolled a little bit, but once I moved out of Hayward, where again,

Speaker 2 you have the facility, I tried to get them in, but the further I moved away, the harder it was to do. So the little ones do.

Speaker 1 Do you mean there's not a lot of lumberjack schools in D.C.?

Speaker 2 There's not, no. But can I tell you what happened? So this is, it's, so actually, I stand corrected.

Speaker 2 So what's we had this innovative couple that developed, instead of a log, like we're using western red cedar for these log-rolling logs, and they're very buoyant. They'll float high.

Speaker 2 And so you can get two people on them. It just doesn't sink to the bottom of the pond or the river.
They developed a,

Speaker 2 not Kevlar,

Speaker 2 but a composite material to make a fake log that behaves like a log. And it's light, but you fill it up with water.

Speaker 2 And so now a lot of YMCAs around the country have log rolling schools because they have these fake logs that they can easily move around when they don't have water, but then you put water in them and they behave behave like a real log.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, so we have YMCAs throughout the country that actually are doing this, which is pretty neat.

Speaker 1 That's awesome.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right on.

Speaker 1 What else were you into growing up?

Speaker 1 Other than being what actually, what age did you start lumberjacking?

Speaker 2 So I started log rolling when I was probably six years old. I started speed climbing when I was four.
I started to learn how to do when I was 14,

Speaker 2 15, you know, 16. Yeah.
So that was like the middle teen years.

Speaker 2 But at least I grew up in small town America. I had 10 brothers and sisters.
I was the 10th of 11.

Speaker 2 We have a big hockey family, so I grew up playing hockey. All my older brothers played hockey.
My uncle is in the Hockey Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 He was on the 1952 or 1954 Olympic hockey team. So hockey was a big part of our lives.

Speaker 2 So yeah, I played hockey. And, you know, we, yeah, that was hockey and and lumberjack sports was about it.

Speaker 2 I played little league

Speaker 2 baseball. We didn't have soccer back then in small town America.
It's not what it is today. We had,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 and we've, so, yeah, we didn't play football. We didn't start football until

Speaker 2 your freshman year in high school. I know they start much younger now, but I'd broke my leg before my freshman year.

Speaker 2 So that put me out for my freshman year and I just didn't didn't pick it up my sophomore year.

Speaker 1 You were the 10th out of 11 kids. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 1 how was it being the 10th out of 11 kids? It was great. It was awesome.
Was it? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do they have any time for you at all?

Speaker 2 So I, no, it's what's interesting, and I see this in my own life. So your parents,

Speaker 2 when you're new parents, I think you make mistakes, right? You've never done it before. You don't know how to do it.
There was probably

Speaker 2 a time when we had these extended families and your parents would help you figure out how to raise your kids. And it was, we were kind of clannish as people.

Speaker 2 And now, because we all live in different parts of the country, we're figuring out how to parent on our own, right? We just, we're new to it.

Speaker 2 And so, I think my parents probably made, they were stricter, probably made more mistakes with the older kids.

Speaker 2 By the time they got to me, they were pretty chill, right? They were pretty great.

Speaker 2 I did shit that I think if my older siblings had done, they would have been like in big trouble. But so

Speaker 2 I had better parents. They had more money.

Speaker 2 And now they were, again, I think they were a little bit tiring of parenthood too. So maybe they're a little more relaxed as well.

Speaker 2 But I think they were better parents for me when I came through versus when the first ones came through. They were older, more mature, more just, yeah, they were, they were more chill parents.

Speaker 1 Makes sense.

Speaker 2 And I think as you're, as for, as you, and I see this with my own kids.

Speaker 2 We

Speaker 2 get better. We make mistakes and we improve.
We get do-overs with every child that you have. You got to do it differently.

Speaker 2 So I was pretty intense with the first ones.

Speaker 2 And I'm a lot more chill with the ones that are in the house right now. But it's interesting,

Speaker 2 this happened with my older siblings and it'll happen with my own kids. My kids would come home like, what the hell?

Speaker 2 You got to take charge. They can't do that.
You can't let them do that. And I'd be like, yeah, it's fine.

Speaker 2 But they notice the difference in the way we parent today versus the way we parented them. And my older siblings would see the same thing with us.

Speaker 2 They'd be like, you guys let them get away with murder.

Speaker 2 But I do think

Speaker 2 it's nice to come at the

Speaker 2 end of the lineup with big families.

Speaker 1 Right on. So here's a question for you.
I mean, having nine kids, I mean, how do you, how do you...

Speaker 1 But you said that the ages are 26 to 6.

Speaker 2 26 to 6, yeah.

Speaker 1 So about a two-year spread in between.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How do you, I mean,

Speaker 1 how do you divvy up time for

Speaker 1 nine kids and a wife?

Speaker 2 That's a great question. I think even from being in my own family,

Speaker 2 time is precious. And it's hard to give time to everybody.

Speaker 2 And time can be an issue. And many times instead of individual time, you're...
having

Speaker 2 some more group time.

Speaker 2 And I think all kids yearn for more time from their parents. And so you could argue that's a drawback to a big family.
But I think kids learn a lot from being in a big family.

Speaker 2 You have to help.

Speaker 2 Two parents can't do everything.

Speaker 2 And the older kids become far more mature and responsible because they have to participate in helping with the younger ones.

Speaker 2 My older ones now, my older siblings now will talk about how they had to change my diaper and wipe my rear end, and they give me a bunch of shit now about that.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah, I think it's,

Speaker 2 for me now,

Speaker 2 I have to be thoughtful about how do I spend my time and how do I make sure I get back and pick up where I left off with them.

Speaker 2 And if I'm honest, my wife has to pick up a big portion of what happens in the house.

Speaker 2 So when I have the benefit of serving, And I do, it's like the greatest honor to serve the country, but also serve with this president.

Speaker 2 My wife has to then

Speaker 2 pick up

Speaker 2 the mother and father job when I'm not there.

Speaker 2 And I think that can be really hard because there is a role for a husband, there is a role for a wife, there's a role for a man, there's a role for a woman, and we do different things and we behave differently, we discipline different.

Speaker 2 And that is one of the challenges. And so when I come home,

Speaker 2 I try to lean into my job as a dad and try to give individual time with all of them. And right now I have, I think I have five at home right now.
So I have two in college, two are out and are married.

Speaker 2 They got married young.

Speaker 2 I have one grandchild.

Speaker 2 So when you only have

Speaker 2 six months, eight months, no, ten months.

Speaker 2 Six months. She's out in California, adorable little girl.

Speaker 2 And that's one of the problems too. We'd love to see her more, our grandchild.
But again, when we all live in these different places, I think it's harder to do that.

Speaker 2 Which for me, as I was like, you know what? I want to have a farm. I like to have all my kids around me.
I do think families living together is really great.

Speaker 2 I don't know if they'll go for that or not, but I would like to have,

Speaker 2 I like my kids. I like my wife.
I want to spend more time with them. And if they were with us in the same area, it would be fantastic.
So, like in Wisconsin, I'm in a small town.

Speaker 2 So, I don't live there. So, there's three or four of us that don't live in this small town, okay?

Speaker 2 But everyone else lives in this small town, like 2,000 people. It's a lake community, so a lot of people come in in the summer.
A lot of people will come in to

Speaker 2 cross-country ski and bike. It's a beautiful area.
But most of my siblings live there.

Speaker 2 And I think there's something very special when

Speaker 2 they all have their own relationships, and their spouses will have relationships, and they have relationships with

Speaker 2 my parents. But

Speaker 2 so I lost my mom a little over a year ago. She passed away.
Sorry to hear that. Yeah, she was, by the way, when you lose a parent, unless you do it, it's not, it's a, it's,

Speaker 2 it's, it's very hard, and especially, I think, your mom.

Speaker 2 But what was cool with, so she, she, she, she fell, she was in church and she fell and she broke her hip in late December. And she went up to Duluth and she was in the hospital up there for

Speaker 2 a number of months

Speaker 2 and then she came home for a number of months and then she went to extended care for a number of months. But if she was 89 and

Speaker 2 when you break

Speaker 2 your hip or your upper thigh at that age,

Speaker 2 it's really hard to recover from that. But with the big family and everyone living in this area, my dad spent, my dad's 91, he's going to be 92,

Speaker 2 active, he runs, he bikes,

Speaker 2 he is the most active 91-year-old, sharp,

Speaker 2 awesome, you know, specimen. I get good, hopefully I get his genes.

Speaker 2 But everybody

Speaker 2 would rotate time with my dad, with my mom. So there was someone with her every single day.
And not just my father, but one of the kids was coming up.

Speaker 2 And if you look at end of life and what she had when she passed away, she had all of these people around her through all of

Speaker 2 the time she spent in the hospital, which was about six, seven months. My father and kids were coming through

Speaker 2 and working together to care for their mother, giving back to her what she had given to them.

Speaker 2 And it was really

Speaker 2 beautiful. It was hard, but it was a beautiful thing that, you know, because a lot of people will, they don't have anyone with them.
They're by themselves.

Speaker 2 There's no one there.

Speaker 2 And she didn't work. She was a stay-at-home mom.
And my dad was a lawyer and did some small town real estate development. But she gave us her life.
Like

Speaker 2 we were her works product.

Speaker 2 And again, like any family, we're all dysfunctional. And there's fights here and there's fights there.
But in the end, if you look at what really matters, that she had all of her...

Speaker 2 all of her kids come and be with her and share time. So my dad wasn't alone with her.

Speaker 2 And again, it wasn't easy because they were an hour and a half away when they were up in Duluth from our small town.

Speaker 2 Or at her house, people would do schedules and who's going to take what shift versus another shift. And then in extended care, it was,

Speaker 2 I think, if you look at the meaning of life and what families mean,

Speaker 2 that was, I think for me, it all came full circle of...

Speaker 2 What are we doing? Like, what do? What's the purpose? And for me, I saw a lot of purpose in what she had because of what she had built.

Speaker 2 And there's a conversation now about have kids, have a family, don't delay it, find love.

Speaker 2 And she did that and had all these kids. And it's not always easy.
But in the end,

Speaker 2 she had the most beautiful experience as she as she passed with not being alone, having people all around her all the time.

Speaker 1 Man, that is really cool to hear. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 1 And again, I'm sorry to hear about your mom.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 What a way to go.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You don't hear that very often.

Speaker 2 You don't. And you know what?

Speaker 2 I know a number of doctors who deal with people at end of life. And I know a lot of people who give hospice care for end of life.
It makes you think about what the purpose of life. But

Speaker 2 if you have faith,

Speaker 2 and you have a family around you,

Speaker 2 they will talk about the peace that, as someone's going through the dying process, the peace of the person with faith and the person with family,

Speaker 2 as opposed to the person who's missing one of those components. Usually,

Speaker 2 faith is very calming, but also then family will add to it.

Speaker 2 And there's a distinct difference

Speaker 2 because you know where you're going and you know what you've built as you leave this earth, and that gives people peace.

Speaker 2 And I think listening to what people say who deal with death a lot should inform us on how we should live our lives,

Speaker 2 what is the true meaning. And I do think it, again,

Speaker 2 it's faith in families. And I think the message today, Sean, is so interesting that we're telling young girls,

Speaker 2 get a job.

Speaker 2 Advance your career. Your career is the most important thing that you have in your life.

Speaker 2 And I think it's a false promise, man. I think it's a false promise.
I don't think it doesn't give you happiness. It doesn't give you, it'll give you money, right? It'll give you colleagues.

Speaker 2 It might give you personal gratification, but who do you have a cup of coffee with on a Saturday morning? Who do you get to watch a sunset with?

Speaker 2 You know, who do you get to share a day in the lake with?

Speaker 2 Or a rainy day where you sit in your house. Who do you share that with? You don't share it with your colleagues.

Speaker 2 You know, it might be fun when you're 34 years old and like you don't have to deal with four kids crying at home and changing diapers and taking someone to soccer practice. That might seem fun, but

Speaker 2 in the end, those colleagues, that corporation, they're not going to be with you at the end. They're not going to go on vacation with you.

Speaker 2 They're not going to have a cup of coffee with you on Sunday morning.

Speaker 2 It is the people that you put around you,

Speaker 2 which is your family, I think that is the most important.

Speaker 2 And I think starting young is important. have kids.
And again, it's not easy, right? It's hard.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 you know this more than anybody.

Speaker 1 I started way late.

Speaker 2 But hard things things give you hard hard things bring you joy.

Speaker 2 Joy doesn't come from the easy layup. Doing hard shit

Speaker 2 makes you,

Speaker 2 the joy that comes from that I think is

Speaker 2 remarkable. So I'm a firm believer in find love, pursue love, get married, have kids.
You're going to be more productive. You'll make more money.
You'll be happier.

Speaker 2 And I just, I think a lot of young men now, I mean, the guys that watch your show, there's just been a whole, this revolution of what's happened with young men the manosphere has been really fascinating to see them leaning into what is it what what does it mean to be a strong male and that these young men are going back to church at a higher rate than girls now it is wild isn't it really cool and

Speaker 2 we almost lost it yeah well we've legitimately almost lost what the fuck it means to be a man and it but it's come back this close and it came back in full force but because of guys like you that go i'm going to talk about what it what does it mean to be a man in this this group of great men that'll talk about what it means to be a man.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it is, you know, the chivalry. It's respecting women.

Speaker 2 By the way, these are very Catholic ideas. We started these ideas in Western civilization in protecting your family, protecting your kids.

Speaker 2 And faith is such a big part of it.

Speaker 1 Where do you think the resurgence came from?

Speaker 2 I think it was the attack on masculinity, you know, calling us toxic.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but how long did that go on for?

Speaker 2 Too long.

Speaker 1 Was it?

Speaker 2 It was a slow burn, I think. It was a slow burn that came to a crescendo of these attacks on these boys.

Speaker 2 And when they had an outlet that would actually celebrate them, would talk about how great they are and how great masculinity actually is, they gravitated towards it.

Speaker 2 And they rejected, right, the, you're toxic, and they would gravitate to the celebration. And that's where they leaned into, you know, so many people that will talk about it like you do and others.

Speaker 1 I never really, I don't, I don't really,

Speaker 1 I never made it a,

Speaker 1 how do I say this?

Speaker 1 I just lead by example. Right.
I'm not telling people how to be a man. I'm not telling people what it means to be a man.
I'm not doing any of that.

Speaker 2 This is more effective than

Speaker 1 I am just leading by example and that's it.

Speaker 1 But no, there's a lot of people out there that are talking about that stuff, but I don't do it.

Speaker 2 But I think it's all part of an ecosystem of

Speaker 2 who are

Speaker 2 what does it mean to be a man? And again,

Speaker 2 you can preach it, which that's fine. That's powerful.
Or

Speaker 2 you can show it by example. We live it.
But either way, I think young men gravitate towards it, and they should, because we should celebrate young men.

Speaker 2 I think one of the problems today is, again, how does a great young man find a decent girl to marry? Right? That's, I think, it's harder to find a good girl.

Speaker 2 They're going to get in trouble for saying that. But again, I think

Speaker 2 these young girls have been sold a different story.

Speaker 2 They haven't come back to what these young men have. And

Speaker 2 yeah, I hope they, again,

Speaker 2 how do you find someone? I think that becomes far more challenging. But I will say, and you probably can attest to this.

Speaker 2 The greatest decision you will ever make in your life, the most important decision you'll make, outside of am I going to choose to

Speaker 2 be a person of faith or not, the number one decision you'll ever make that'll have the greatest impact is not where you go to school, not what job I pick, not where I live in the country.

Speaker 2 It's who do I marry? Who you marry is the greatest decision. And by the way, it's oftentimes a crapshoot, right?

Speaker 2 We all put our best foot forward as we're dating and we're trying to, you know,

Speaker 2 go through that process. But the most important decision is who you marry, what kind of person are they?

Speaker 2 Are they going to say, again, because marriage is, anyone who's been married knows it's always not sunshine and roses. Marriage is

Speaker 2 amazing,

Speaker 2 but it's hard, like anything. It's hard.
It can be hard, but it's beautiful. And do I have someone who's going to stick with me? Do we share values?

Speaker 2 On life's road,

Speaker 2 who am I going to journey it with? That decision is the number one most important decision any young man will make or a young woman.

Speaker 1 Man, I'm with you on that one. I think a lot of people get that.
I mean, it's very obvious. A lot of people get that decision wrong.

Speaker 1 Why do you think they get it wrong?

Speaker 2 I don't know that they get it right.

Speaker 2 I think when things can get hard,

Speaker 2 there's a perception that it's always against sunshine and roses. And it's actually not.

Speaker 2 You've got to disagree. You're going to fight.

Speaker 2 You're going to have issues that you have to work through. And do I have a, am I someone who can actually be committed to the marriage and work through those issues?

Speaker 2 Do I have a partner who's willing to work through those issues as well?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if you do, you can make it work. But if you hit the release valve and get out,

Speaker 2 you're probably going to find the same situation in the next marriage that you have. Are you willing to stick it out?

Speaker 2 Because again, it's the most, like, I couldn't, my life doesn't exist without my wife. I wouldn't be here without her.
I wouldn't have all the greatest things in my life without her.

Speaker 2 But, you know, know,

Speaker 2 do we have disagreement? Yeah, we have disagreement. But in the end,

Speaker 2 there's, and we'll, and we fight. But in the end,

Speaker 2 we're not leaving each other. We made a commitment to each other.
We are sticking together. And no matter what fight we have, there's never a conversation about the release valve.

Speaker 2 Like this is like, we got to work through it. But we are in this together.

Speaker 2 And I think if people think about it maybe differently, again, we take away the roses and talk about the beauty of marriage and the disagreement and the agreement and the joy and the fights and make it more realistic and that you have to fight for your marriage, I think we might have better results.

Speaker 2 I think maybe it's the easy

Speaker 2 you can take, you can too easily take the easy path.

Speaker 2 By the way, you might have abuse too. There's also situations where you probably got to get out of, but many of them are not that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that's a damn good point. I think a lot of people enter into relationships for strictly superficial reasons also

Speaker 1 which you know that never winds up turning out good doesn't

Speaker 2 but but but how so how did you meet your wife i mean i know how you guys met but so uh so i did i did a um i do i did reality tv as you mentioned yeah that was right at the that was like the beginning of reality tv right yeah so i was i was the sixth season of the real world so real world So this is on MTV.

Speaker 2 Some people might know this, some people might not, because MTV has gone down

Speaker 2 the drain.

Speaker 2 But they'd pick seven people from all different walks of life, all different viewpoints, all different experiences, and they'd put them in a house and make them live together. And

Speaker 2 they would just film them for

Speaker 2 every moment of every day for about six months. And then they'd edit that down to about 22 half-hour episodes.
And it was wildly popular.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was on

Speaker 2 the sixth season of that. My wife was on the third season.

Speaker 2 And what's interesting is if you think about it, we actually

Speaker 2 gravitate towards and build relationships with people that are very much like us. Similar backgrounds, similar beliefs.

Speaker 2 And that's who we become friends with. That's who we maybe want to live by.
That's who we will go have a drink at the bar with or a cup of coffee with. People like us.

Speaker 2 We don't naturally go out and go like, I'm going to go be friends with someone who is from a way different walk of life and way different viewpoints than I have.

Speaker 2 Human nature is not built that way.

Speaker 2 But this show made you live with people who are very different from you.

Speaker 2 And what was actually pretty cool, one of the coolest experiences and learning lessons from me doing the show was wildly different people than me. Like

Speaker 2 I'm a lumberjack from northern Wisconsin who hadn't done a lot of travel. How old were you? I was 24, 25 when I did it.
So I was in the middle of law school.

Speaker 2 I took a year off of law school when I did it. So I was older than most when I did the show.

Speaker 2 But what I found was that these very different people at first blush today, it was like, we have nothing in common.

Speaker 2 When you live with someone for six months, you realize you have way more in common than you would think of at first blush. And it's been pretty instructive for me on even in politics.

Speaker 2 You can find common ground with people. You really can't.
Even at the first blush, you'll be like,

Speaker 2 we can't work together because you're crazy, man. You're like...

Speaker 2 But the truth is, you actually can. And you share a lot more in common than you might think.
I mean,

Speaker 2 I worked with Maxine Waters on the, she's a Democrat on the Financial Services Committee.

Speaker 2 She's pretty far left.

Speaker 2 We found a way to work together on a number of different pieces of legislation. I always treated her with respect.

Speaker 2 We would argue on her ideas, and she'd argue on my ideas, but I never attacked her personally. I don't think this has to be personal.

Speaker 2 But we found, and by the way, I needed Democrats to help me if I was going to pass a bill in the House to get it passed in the Senate to have a Democrat president sign it.

Speaker 2 Like it can't just be like Republicans control the House. I got a Democrat president and I think this bill is going to become law.

Speaker 2 If I actually believe in the law, I needed Democrats to partake with me, which means

Speaker 2 they had to have a say in it and we had to work on it together. And

Speaker 2 again, that was the way you could get something done. That for me comes back to this real-world experience.

Speaker 2 And so, to your question, my wife did the third season. I did the seventh season,

Speaker 2 and she had a famous season. Hers was with

Speaker 2 one of the first guys on TV. He had AIDS.
His name was Pedro. He ended up eventually dying of AIDS.
A very sad story.

Speaker 2 There was a guy named Puck on their show, you know, bike messenger, snot rocket, you know, funny, witty, a little crazy guy on their show. So they had a really unique

Speaker 2 show that she did. Again, I came a couple years after that.
I took a year off of, I took a semester off of law school to go do this show. And then at the end of the show,

Speaker 2 they were like, hey, we're going to do this special where Real World, which is the seven people who live in the house, are going to do a special on what we call road rules, which was five people.

Speaker 2 They started off by putting them in an RV and they would do different missions around the country. Then they did different missions around the world.

Speaker 2 They said, hey, we're going to have one from each of these casts come and do road rules. And they picked me from my cast.
They picked Rachel from her cast.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 yeah, she was, I met her at a train station. Everyone was coming in.
I was the fifth one of the cast. She was on the train with other cast members.
They came off.

Speaker 2 Actually, I went on and basically Rachel handed me her bag. i've been carrying it ever since with her

Speaker 2 so i met her so i have my meeting with my wife on on tv and then i was i was i was i was trying to pursue her on the show i was and she had a boyfriend at the time she was a little bit successful but not really and we hung out a little bit after this this it was a three-week show we hung a little bit after

Speaker 2 and then she was like

Speaker 2 not gonna have any of it right she said she was not no kidding she did she was not in she was like listen, she was living in LA. She was like living this LA life.

Speaker 2 She had a really horrific car crash before we met.

Speaker 2 Everyone died but her. So she had had this unique experience that she was coming into.
And she's like, this is not, you're not at this point.

Speaker 2 At this stage, you're kind of like, is this someone that's right for me or not right for me?

Speaker 2 I guess I fell into the not right for me category.

Speaker 2 And so I spent a little time in LA and I had to go back to Minnesota for law school.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 she had a speech in Milwaukee. And that's when Northwest was flying.
And their hub was Minneapolis. So she flew to, did the speech in Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 And she was flying through Minneapolis where I was going to law school. And

Speaker 2 she had a layover. She's like, well, let's just, let's be friends.
Why don't come pick me up?

Speaker 2 Let's go hang out. So I went and picked her up.
And I brought her to this famous little dirty diner in St. Paul, Minnesota, called the Uptowner, not far from where I live.

Speaker 2 We had breakfast, we drank coffee, went up hanging out for like two and a half hours. And at the end of the conversation,

Speaker 2 shit, you not. I'm in the conversation.
This girl I had met on the show for three weeks. We hung out a little bit after.
She ditched me.

Speaker 2 She comes to see me in Minnesota and I'm back in school. And I'm like, whatever.
But yeah, we'll go up

Speaker 2 two and a half hours in, drinking coffee. After breakfast, she looks at me and says,

Speaker 2 I love you.

Speaker 2 No way. What? I'm going to marry you.

Speaker 2 Holy shit.

Speaker 2 And I'm like,

Speaker 2 as a guy, you're like, whoa.

Speaker 2 She says she's going to marry me. So we started dating.

Speaker 1 Hold on, what did you say to that?

Speaker 2 I was like, you're flipping crazy town. Like,

Speaker 2 what are you talking about? Right.

Speaker 2 And for her, it's interesting to ask, you know, now that we've been married for like 25 years, she's like, I just thought this is what lovers do.

Speaker 2 Lovers can sit and have a cup of coffee like for two and and a half hours and like have this really easy conversation. And I think you have good values.

Speaker 2 I think you're, she's, it was important that I was Catholic. She's like, you're Catholic.

Speaker 2 You're nice.

Speaker 2 You're handsome.

Speaker 2 I'm going to marry you.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, dude, it was that was that was wild. It took me, yeah, it took me a little while to wrap my head around that.
But that's how bold she is. That she was very bold.
And

Speaker 2 what a

Speaker 2 like a year and a half later, we were married.

Speaker 2 Right on. Yeah, right on.
Wow. So

Speaker 2 I'd like to take credit for that, but that was, she was, by the way, and obviously I'd been pursuing her, but

Speaker 2 I got dissed in the process. But

Speaker 2 damn. So that's, so that's, so

Speaker 2 I was telling you before the show, so we are, we're the first reality TV couple,

Speaker 2 and we are the most fertile of any reality TV couple with nine kids.

Speaker 2 But can I see what's interesting too, Sean, is we, it's, we.

Speaker 1 You're literally the first reality couple to marry. Yeah.
Wow. No shit.
Because we're at the start of reality TV, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We're the first ones to get married and the first ones to, like, again, the only ones to have all these kids.

Speaker 1 Do you guys watch reality TV together now?

Speaker 2 She does more than I do.

Speaker 1 What do you guys watch it?

Speaker 2 She loves the housewives, right? She'll watch the housewives. So I got stuck watching the housewives for a while because she has it on all the time.

Speaker 1 You guys aren't watching Love is Blind, are you?

Speaker 2 I think this sounds familiar. She might watch that too.

Speaker 1 Oh, shit. Here we go.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Have you not heard of this shit?

Speaker 2 Yes, but don't.

Speaker 1 My wife is obsessed. She's obsessed with this.
So they put, they bring out, they pick all these people, right? I don't know, 10 guys, 10 girls, something like this.

Speaker 1 And they do like this blind dating where they both, they go in these rooms. So it'd be like if we put a curtain across this room.
Females over here, males over here.

Speaker 1 They talk to each other through the curtain, but they don't, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 You can't see them and then and then you have so you go through and you date all these people and then you and then and then you have to get engaged without seeing the person would you have done this hell no hell no that's not my jam i want to see them

Speaker 1 well then then they get engaged and then after they get engaged then they meet they get to see him And then they

Speaker 1 and then, oh, it's fucking awesome. This is like a total, it's a train wreck.

Speaker 1 This is what I love about reality.

Speaker 1 I'm ashamed to say it. Yes, I've seen almost all of them.

Speaker 1 I mean, I can't watch mainstream media anymore.

Speaker 2 Love is blind.

Speaker 1 So, yo, so we watch Love is Blood.

Speaker 1 So then they dump all these, you know, then there's the pool party where everybody, they dump everybody into the fucking pool party.

Speaker 1 Of course, there's plenty of booze.

Speaker 1 And then, and then they all meet the people you know what i mean that oh i remember talking to you oh and then they start getting jealous and you know the affairs start to have it's fucking amazing do they do they and do people get married out of this do they oh yeah they will yeah

Speaker 1 i don't know how many of them have actually lasted but they'll get married so then yeah so they marry on the show yeah so you get engaged then you then they dump everybody in and they all live together then they then the person that you get engaged with you go to their house and meet their family and you live together an apartment and then at the end they get married so i watched i watched a few of the what's the one with the the rose ceremonies what is it the rose ceremonies the uh

Speaker 2 god come on the um whatever that love one was the bachelor the bachelor the bachelor so old school i'd watch i'd watch those with her um

Speaker 2 but it's interesting but it is interesting what's happened you would spend all this money on on on the scripts and the writing and actors And the reality TV side of things is very appealing, whether it's the social media influencer versus people that are doing reality TV.

Speaker 2 There's the real component of TV and how people behave and the decisions that they make is really,

Speaker 2 it's great television. It is.

Speaker 2 And we were the start of that on Real World. So good for you.

Speaker 2 You sit down and you watch Love and Fall with your wife.

Speaker 1 My wife watches it. I fall asleep.

Speaker 2 I think that's bullshit. Your wife is like, that's bullshit.

Speaker 2 Tongue loves the show. I got it.
I got it.

Speaker 2 I got into it.

Speaker 1 Maybe like three seasons or so. And I was just like, man, this is like so addicting watching this fucking train.
It's like getting ready to happen over and over and over.

Speaker 2 Who would do this? But if we're going to celebrate relationships, celebrate love, if we're going to do it through Love is Blind, so be it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 no shit. So two-time, two-time reality TV shows.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 then I did a special as well where they they had

Speaker 2 they did the now they do these competitions.

Speaker 2 They picked real world teams and road world teams and they had to compete against each other and we had to vote people off of our shows.

Speaker 2 So it became contentious and I had a partner from my show Elka.

Speaker 2 We ended up winning and at the time I was like I had no money. I was like I won two cars.
I won like $150,000. I won.
It was, yeah, it was pretty, it was great. Nice.

Speaker 2 So I did that one as well. But they've come back and asked us to do more shows

Speaker 2 um they just so now what they've done is paramountly yeah yeah so paramount is doing

Speaker 2 um like they're bringing casts back to spend like two or three weeks together to then film them today now they're all older and grayer and fatter and they're going to film them to kind of relive what happened in the past and catch up with where they are right now but the deal is everyone on your show has to say yes to it

Speaker 2 and they asked our cast to do it, and I was the only one who said no. And the reason, I mean, I wanted, and they were going to pay fairly well.
And for a lot of people, they needed the money.

Speaker 2 And I was, I felt,

Speaker 2 I couldn't do it because

Speaker 2 I don't trust liberal producers, liberal editors. I'm a target, right? They don't agree with my politics.
This is in the midst of Trump. They hate Trump.

Speaker 2 Like, why would I put myself in that environment? And I don't need your money.

Speaker 2 So I didn't do it. And I think my cast was frustrated at me.

Speaker 1 And we we have a comet getting ready to slam into earth.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. I have bigger problems.

Speaker 1 No shit. So they wanted you to do this.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Some have asked for us to do our,

Speaker 2 you know, do you kind of have the family do part of it as well. And we just, we haven't said yes to it.
And again, we're so busy right now.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I'm overwhelmed busy. My wife does the weekend show on Fox.
She does a Spanish show as well.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, we don't have time to do it. Maybe at one point, I don't know.
Maybe we would do it. But right now, we're not interested.

Speaker 1 You know, that's an interesting point with nine kids. I mean,

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Speaker 2 So the conversation goes like this: they want us to do a reality TV show. Someone's going to be like,

Speaker 2 Are you interested in the conversation?

Speaker 2 And Rachel, my wife, says, No.

Speaker 2 And I say, How much?

Speaker 2 And we don't get beyond her no. So we do,

Speaker 2 but I think the kids would be interested in it. I think they would think

Speaker 2 it would be fun.

Speaker 2 By the way, the problem is you get older kids and they go back and watch the episodes and they'll,

Speaker 2 if you do this stuff, just know that it'll come back to haunt you. Your kids will watch what you did

Speaker 2 when you were their age. And

Speaker 2 they'll tell me Maya's season was boring, Rachel's was great. And they'll bring back different scenes and things she said and throw them at her, which will really piss her off a bit.

Speaker 2 But so I don't know that they're, I don't know that they're really into doing it, but they thought it was neat that we kind of went through this process.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it seems like the country has moved. By the way, it was very innocent back then, too.
Like it's gotten really debaucherous.

Speaker 2 The greater the debauchery today, the greater the ratings. It was pretty innocent back then.
And you're having conversations that

Speaker 2 someone in the 90s was having about their careers and their love life. And

Speaker 2 it was far more natural. And

Speaker 2 it's kind of grown into something different that

Speaker 2 I think would be harder to do as a young adult. And I think more.

Speaker 1 It's like controlled chaos now.

Speaker 2 It's controlled. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 We have an idea of which direction it's going to go.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 1 So, yeah.

Speaker 2 So I don't know that I'd recommend that

Speaker 2 they do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So, but

Speaker 2 that has come up with the kids and the older ones, like, I have one son who's like, hell no, you should not know.

Speaker 2 And I got another one that's like, well, that'd be kind of fun and we could do it and be great. And we're a big family and we're, you know, we have a lot of fun together.

Speaker 2 So, but no,

Speaker 2 the boss says, we're not going to do it. So we're not going to do it.
But it's,

Speaker 2 I think it's, when we talk about our kids,

Speaker 2 I, so I,

Speaker 2 we talked about getting,

Speaker 2 getting, um, getting it right, making mistakes and then figuring out how you do things differently. So my first one went to the University of Chicago.

Speaker 2 I raised a great little Catholic, smart girl, went to UChicago, great school,

Speaker 2 and it was right at the start of COVID. And she had made a comment about

Speaker 2 communism has killed more people than COVID will, or she had made some analogy because we're dealing with some of the leftist stuff in the country. And people lost their minds.

Speaker 2 Like she had death threats. And the school, instead of reaching out to her, they had gone to the people who feel threatened by her comments and had a conversation with them.

Speaker 2 But she turned out to be a great little conservative. My son went to University of Madison, turned out to be a

Speaker 2 great Catholic young man. He went during COVID and he's like,

Speaker 2 did a year. He's he's like, I'm out of here.
I'm going to go try to make movies in California, which he's done and he's been successful. But from that, we've kind of said, you know what?

Speaker 2 And you know, this, you have two little kids. Like you put your heart and your soul into your kids and you try to raise them really well

Speaker 2 and make them upstanding little people. And you try to give them the faith and give them the value.

Speaker 2 And then you send them to college and you see these kids that come from these great families and they come back from college and it's like, what the hell happened to that kid?

Speaker 2 They're like, they're like, they're woke and radicalized, and like, they're saying all this crazy shit.

Speaker 2 And so, as we've seen that, we're like, you know what? We're not going to do that. Like, I'm not going to invest

Speaker 2 in all the work and effort I put into my child. I'm not going to send them to potentially be radicalized in these institutions that are professionalized, radicalizing young kids, young minds.

Speaker 2 And so, now what we do is I say, okay, here's the deal. You're 18, you're applying for college, you can go wherever you want.
Like, that's your choice. Like, you're going to be an adult, you can pick.

Speaker 2 If you want me and your mom to help pay, these are the 10 schools you can pick from.

Speaker 2 10 schools that we know that when you come back, you'll have a great education and they support the values that we taught them. But why would I risk giving my child over to these radicals?

Speaker 1 What are those 10 schools?

Speaker 2 So we have a list, but

Speaker 2 it's Hillsdale is on there. The one that our kids go to is the University of...

Speaker 1 Hillsdale's awesome.

Speaker 2 Awesome. Fantastic.

Speaker 2 Liberty is one of them, but ours go to the University of Dallas. It's a Catholic school, like a great books.
It's a 1950s education where they actually expand the minds and horizons of your kids.

Speaker 2 And it's truly Catholic. I know when I send my young adult there, they're going to come back even better than when I sent them out.
And so I have two there right now. One's a senior, one's a freshman.

Speaker 2 You know, maybe to a lesser extent, Notre Dame, but Notre Dame has some problems. But we put a list together for them and we let them pick.

Speaker 2 But to go to the University of Wisconsin, say Madison, I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I mean, again, it's fun.
Like we like, these kids want to go.

Speaker 2 It's a club met. It's, you know, they got beautiful gyms and swimming pools.
And, you know, the... the football games are amazing.
Like we, it's a really great experience.

Speaker 2 But what the hell am I sending them to college for? Like that's not the purpose is to have a great time and the great sorority or fraternity.

Speaker 2 It's to get an education and to support the values that we've instilled in them. And so we've just been like, we're not going to do it anymore.

Speaker 2 And I think more parents have to make better decisions about who they're willing to turn their young, the young mind that they help. I mean, again, you know this.

Speaker 2 You put a lot of love and effort into it.

Speaker 2 Not going to risk it anymore with the crazy.

Speaker 1 Did you guys homeschool at all?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 We just thought we, it's pretty wild. Nine kids was hard, but I know a lot of people with big families do it.
We did not, but we've sent ours to Catholic schools.

Speaker 2 And by the way, sometimes Catholic schools are just public school light.

Speaker 2 We moved to New Jersey three years ago because Rachel does the show in New York City. We found the most amazing Catholic school in New Jersey, in Booton, New Jersey.

Speaker 2 It is awesome. And so I was going to, when I got this job, I was going to move the family to D.C.

Speaker 2 And Rachel could go back and forth on the weekends and we'd all be there together. We didn't do that because I don't think I could match the school that the kids are in in New Jersey.

Speaker 2 And so because of the school, they stayed. And that's a decision that Rachel and I made.
And then I'm the one that goes back and forth as opposed to just her on the weekend. But it was,

Speaker 2 and I mean,

Speaker 2 it's an evolving conversation. But again, making sure that

Speaker 2 We have kids that go even in the K through 12 school where they get the value that we teach them at home. I think a lot of parents at the dinner table, which by the way, dinner is I think important.

Speaker 2 We have dinner as much as possible. They love to sit down for dinner and have a conversation and put phones away.

Speaker 2 But you don't have to rewire them. They don't come home at dinner and tell you the crazy shit they learned at school and you have to rewire them, reprogram them.
No, it's like

Speaker 2 they had instruction that fits. with what we teach them.

Speaker 1 That makes sense. It makes perfect sense.
I mean, a lot of parents are up,

Speaker 1 one of them, are thinking about these things.

Speaker 1 At least for now, we've chosen the homeschool route. I mean, we're preschool though.
So we figure

Speaker 1 better figure it out before.

Speaker 2 I think homeschool is great. And the curriculums for homeschool are awesome.
But if you go to your school and the gay pride flag is bigger than the American flag, you got a freaking problem. Right.

Speaker 2 Or if you tell me that you're going to raise a global citizen, you got a problem. And that's the shit we deal with in the school system.

Speaker 2 Again, whatever happened to math and science and English and like

Speaker 2 that's what the public school was made for, for those things,

Speaker 2 not this cultural revolution. And the cultural revolution is alive and well in most of these schools.
And I'm like,

Speaker 2 you should have none of it. And that's why I hope that we're successful in this administration.
We should have the dollars that attach to the kid, not the dollars attached to the school.

Speaker 2 And if we do that, I think competition and parents, I think parents would make way different choices with where they send their kids because, again, the pathway to success is a great education and they have great values as a human being.

Speaker 2 And the public school in many places doesn't offer that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 are we going to homeschool when they get to

Speaker 2 kindergarten, first grade?

Speaker 1 I mean, never know. This is our first year trying it, but I mean, that seems to be the direction we're heading.
That's that's what i'm hoping for yeah so

Speaker 1 i love it yeah you know i just i've seen a lot of uh

Speaker 1 so this area of tennessee is like homeschool mecca

Speaker 1 and um

Speaker 1 i see a difference i can definitely see a difference uh between kids that are homeschooled and kids that uh are in the system and uh

Speaker 2 And in the homeschool,

Speaker 2 do you see that the homeschool parents will then get together with the kids? So the kids have social interaction.

Speaker 2 There's a whole structure around it, right? You'll homeschool, but then you'll do things with other homeschool parents.

Speaker 1 There's plenty.

Speaker 1 I think the whole myth about homeschool kids being

Speaker 1 socially awkward and weird, I think that has just been decimated.

Speaker 1 When I see the homeschool crowd, those kids just have,

Speaker 1 they seem to have a lot more confidence they ask better questions they're they're better in conversation way beyond their peers you know at the same age and uh i think you know i think i think that's the kind of stuff that just really builds a

Speaker 2 great character so my um my son-in-law just announced today that he's running for congress in my old congressional seat It's an open seat.

Speaker 2 And he was homeschooled, I think, until eighth grade.

Speaker 2 And then he went to high school in Wausau, Wisconsin, met my daughter. They dated a little bit in high school and then dated in college and they got married young.

Speaker 2 One of the most well-adjusted, nice young men you'll ever meet, confident.

Speaker 2 And that's how to be being a nice human being that is well-adjusted and can talk to people. And I think it probably comes from his homeschooling up till eighth grade.

Speaker 1 That's cool to hear. That's cool to hear.

Speaker 1 Well, let's get back to you. How did you get into politics?

Speaker 2 So I was,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 I went to college, was in law school,

Speaker 2 did reality TV.

Speaker 2 I was, you know, you'd said you've kind of had left the faith a little bit. I was probably not the best Catholic that was out there at that phase of my life.

Speaker 2 We come back to it and it's important that we come back to it.

Speaker 2 But so I came back. I always knew I wanted to come back to my small town in Hayward, Wisconsin.
And I came back and I worked with my dad and his local practice for about a year.

Speaker 2 And then an opportunity existed 60 miles north of my hometown where there was a woman who was going to take a leave.

Speaker 2 And I was able to get a job as a special prosecutor to fill her spot while she was going to have a baby.

Speaker 2 And so I

Speaker 2 learned how to be a prosecutor.

Speaker 2 And the guy that was the DA, it was a small office, two people, he ended up taking another job. We had a Republican governor at the time.
He appointed me into this job as the DA of Ashland County. And

Speaker 2 very liberal area, right? But

Speaker 2 I was kind of a crunchy con. I was on

Speaker 2 the health food

Speaker 2 co-op board.

Speaker 2 But I was like, listen, I'm a conservative.

Speaker 2 I'm a Republican. No one ever ran against me.
So I did almost 10 years as the DA, but that was public service. But I never had to go out and campaign.
I never had to go, you know, shake and bake.

Speaker 2 And just no one ran against me. And I was able to keep the job.
So that was my first experience with public life, but I didn't really have to run anything.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 when

Speaker 2 in 2008,

Speaker 2 so going back a number of years, but

Speaker 2 Barack Obama wins. Democrats control the House, the Senate.
And in Wisconsin,

Speaker 2 they had the governorship and they had the Assembly and the Senate. So Democrats control everything in my life.
And it felt really shitty. It was not good.

Speaker 2 Like the country is going in the wrong direction. My state's going in the wrong direction.
And Democrats are riding high. It's, you know, it's, you know, it's not a great time to be a Republican.

Speaker 2 But I thought a couple of things. One, history of politics will tell you that if that is the environment today, the next election is going to be really good for the minority party.
There was that.

Speaker 2 And the guy that I was going to, that was my congressman that I was gonna run against, he was the chairman of appropriations. So at that time, appropriations, incredibly powerful.

Speaker 2 He had been there for 42 years. So he was elected in 1969.
So before man landed on the moon and before Woodstock, he was a member of Congress.

Speaker 2 And Republicans had run against him, but they had never been successful. So I'm like, you know what? And by the way, back then

Speaker 2 they passed a stimulus bill because that was after the 08 crisis. And so the stimulus bill was $800 billion, which by the way is like,

Speaker 2 I wish the size of some of the bills that Democrats passed were that small again. So I would decide, I'm going to run, right? I may not win, but I'm going to flip and hold him accountable.

Speaker 2 I'm going to hold him accountable for these shitty votes and no one ever holds him accountable. When Obamacare passed, he was in the speaker's chair with the gavel.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to run. And

Speaker 2 I got in the race. And so what's hard is when you run

Speaker 2 in a seat like this where you have a 42-year incumbent, no one believes you can win.

Speaker 2 Nobody believed. Everyone actually said, you're dumb.
This is foolish. Like my friends were telling me, this is foolish.
You can't do.

Speaker 2 You're a lamb to slaughter. And my wife was like, hell no, we can do this.
And so I had a friend who was involved in politics who told me, don't run. But if you do run, I'll help you out.

Speaker 2 And so literally it was me and Rachel.

Speaker 2 I think I had five kids at the time. I got noticed that she told me like a month into the campaign that she was pregnant with her sixth baby.

Speaker 2 And I worked my ass off. So I was the DA during the day.
I would get in my car. Like there's no, there's no team.
Like I'm like, we're the team. I drive myself.
And I have a big district.

Speaker 2 I have about a third of the state of Wisconsin. I'm driving three hours, do an event, drive three hours home, get home late, sleep, go to the office in the morning, do DA work.

Speaker 2 And again, the same thing the next day. And I'm trying to raise money.
People don't want to give money to a race. They don't think you can win.

Speaker 2 But so half my battle was selling people on the fact that we can win this race. We're going to win.
This is why we can win. These are the numbers.

Speaker 2 And by sheer force,

Speaker 2 I raised, for me, I think I raised $139,000 in my first quarter, which was at the time really good.

Speaker 2 Still is actually a decent number. Then I raised like $159,000 in the second quarter.
So I was raising money and people were buying in.

Speaker 2 This is all like local, local money, small towns, people given, businessmen that are like, this young kid's crazy, but I think he can actually, maybe he can do it.

Speaker 2 And so that was the story of our campaign. I started to hire people after about eight months into the campaign after driving myself.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I got Sarah Palin to, like, we got Sarah Palin's endorsement. I had, you know red state right about me.
We're trying to get all of these people to try to build some

Speaker 2 some

Speaker 2 energy around the campaign.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 as we got into 2010, which is the race I was actually running in,

Speaker 2 that's when it was like, oh shit, this is going to be a good year. This is a good year for Republicans.
We saw the tide turning.

Speaker 2 And this guy I was running against ended up, he saw the write on the wall. I was going to beat him.
He retired.

Speaker 2 and so the seat was open a state senator democrat got in the race um it was the most targeted race in the country that year um they spent a ton of money against me um

Speaker 2 like my kids would watch the ads i they would they'd give me they would give me feedback on the ads they would take some of the line does dad really hate old people does dad really does you why does dad want to take jobs away from wisconsin like that's the that the you know you get you know the ads but in the end um through sheer hard work and a great cycle, I, I flipped a seat that was 42 years Democrat.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the next two races were really hard as well. So I like, I, I worked my, so I worked, I would shake so many hands that I would get a callus

Speaker 2 in the, in the, in, between my thumb and my pointer finger.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 as a lumberjack?

Speaker 2 No, so

Speaker 2 those, those, those calluses are on my hand. I had the back of my hand from people grabbing my hand, from shaking hands.

Speaker 2 I would get a callus. And I went everywhere.

Speaker 2 In the primary, I ran against

Speaker 2 a farmer who is a,

Speaker 2 he's a strawberry farmer. And he's kind of a Mennonite guy.
And

Speaker 2 a little bit crazy, but he knew how to work. And so I had to match his work ethic.
So I was like, I had to match him and how hard he worked. So I just, like, that's what you do.

Speaker 2 Like, you, like, that's all you do is campaign. You're everywhere all the time.
We do dairy breakfasts in Wisconsin. I would sit at the line where people have to pay for

Speaker 2 breakfast and I'd just shake hands. And then someone might want to stop and talk to me.
And I would walk with them and talk. And then I'd shake hands.
And if someone wants to talk, I'd walk and talk.

Speaker 2 And you know, what's interesting is if you shake someone's hand, it takes a second. But people get an instant read on you.
I like him. I don't like him.
They're nice. They're not nice.
They're honest.

Speaker 2 They're not honest. And so just by shaking hands, people are like, I met him.
I think he's kind of nice. I liked him.

Speaker 2 So I had this big race and I won and

Speaker 2 had the honor of a lifetime to go to Washington. Dick Cheney met our, so we had this massive class.
We had this like 87 new members of Congress, which is just mammoth.

Speaker 2 And Dick Cheney, who I'm not a big fan of right now, but Dick Cheney, who was the former vice president,

Speaker 2 former House member, came and talked to us and he said, obviously, I've done a lot of things. I've been the Secretary of Defense.
I've been vice president.

Speaker 2 But the greatest win you'll ever have, the greatest political moment you'll ever have in your life is the one you have right now.

Speaker 2 To win a seat in the House was the coolest experience I've had in my political career. But it was really, I walked into the House chamber with my wife.
By the way, I'd never been in the Capitol.

Speaker 2 in my life. Never got it, like my class in Hayward, Wisconsin didn't take a tour to the Capitol.
So the first time I went into the U.S. Capitol was as a congressman-elect.

Speaker 2 We had

Speaker 2 a dinner in Statuary Hall for all the new members. And then the speaker or the

Speaker 2 John Boehner, who was going to be the speaker, was like, Do you guys want to go see the House Chamber? I'm like,

Speaker 2 where in the hell is the House Chamber? It's like right down the hall. Like, I have no idea.
We walk into the House Chamber

Speaker 2 and I started to cry that I worked so hard to get there.

Speaker 2 And to be in, again, maybe we think less of it today, but

Speaker 2 I had a cried when I got in there.

Speaker 2 It was so much work, so much effort.

Speaker 2 And then to represent people, that they put the faith in you,

Speaker 2 it's a really cool honor.

Speaker 1 That's cool to hear. Yeah.

Speaker 1 A lot of dark stuff going on in the world right now.

Speaker 1 And it's to the point where I don't even believe my own eyes anymore because I cannot verify what people are saying about all the political violence, the division.

Speaker 1 I partnered with this production company called Ironclad and we're doing an eight-part audio series on PSYOPs, on why foreign countries, governments, maybe even our own government would conduct a psyop on its own people.

Speaker 1 And I just think that this series is going to be extremely important because it's going to open the eyes of people on why these things happen.

Speaker 1 You can head over to psyopshow.com, order it today. I think you're going to get a lot out of this.
Who's pulling the strings?

Speaker 1 Who's pulling them?

Speaker 1 I'd like to invite you to gain access to an exclusive Experience on Vigilance Elite Patreon.

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Speaker 1 How did you wind up,

Speaker 1 Secretary of Transportation?

Speaker 2 So, I did, I did. So, I served for

Speaker 2 nine and a half years

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 we were going to have our ninth baby

Speaker 2 and when

Speaker 2 we, again, I slept in my office, right? So

Speaker 2 you sleep on a cot or blow-up mattress in your office. You go to the house gym, you shower, you come back, you have your suits there.
You know,

Speaker 2 you spend four days, three nights. four days, you know, living on a mattress, showering in the gym.

Speaker 2 That does, it's an honor, but that does get a little bit old. Right now they've switched the model.
They give Congressman a stipend to stay in a hotel.

Speaker 2 So we, we,

Speaker 2 but we were going to have,

Speaker 2 we found out Rachel's pregnant, baby number nine.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 she called me after she had done some testing, like, listen, there's a pretty good chance your baby is going to have Down syndrome.

Speaker 2 Like, okay. And by the way, that's the greatest gift in our life.
But at that time, it's like, you,

Speaker 2 know what it is. You know, what does this mean for us, right?

Speaker 2 By the way, some try to talk to us about having an abortion. We're like, get the fuck out of here.
Like, no, we're not, we're having this baby.

Speaker 2 And then as we went in further, they're like, this baby has a heart problem. There's a heart defect as well.
And so as I got into the summer, the baby was born.

Speaker 2 Her name is Valentina at the end of September. But in the summer, I'm like,

Speaker 2 I can't do this. Like, this is too much because Rachel has all the kids at home.
All the kids are at home. We're at baby number nine.
And I'm in Congress.

Speaker 2 I'm going back and forth, flying to Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm like,

Speaker 2 I got to get out. She's like, no,

Speaker 2 we can do this. You can stay.
We can make it happen. I can,

Speaker 2 she's a scrapper and a fighter. And it was one of the few moments where I'm like, nope, we're getting out.
And she didn't, she did not want us to get out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it created some tension in our marriage for a little while because she was like, no, you should stay. And at some point, I think as men, we're like, I know what we can and can't do.

Speaker 2 I know what's pulling at our family. And so I announced I'm getting out.

Speaker 2 The baby came early. And

Speaker 2 at that point, I took a job with CNN.

Speaker 2 And I signed a two-year deal with CNN, which, by the way,

Speaker 2 I had done a lot of CNN. I had supported the president in 2016, one of the few members that would go on and support President Trump, defended him, pushed for him.

Speaker 2 Not many people would do it in 2016.

Speaker 2 They didn't think about him then as they think about him today, but I was one of the only guys that would go do that. So CNN offered me a job.

Speaker 2 They were not very nice to me at CNN. They didn't treat Republicans very well.
Look, I worked at Fox too. Fox treats Democrats very well.

Speaker 2 That's not the way I was treated at CNN. So I did a year at CNN and I asked to get out of the contract.
They agreed. I didn't do the full two years.
I signed with Fox

Speaker 2 just as a contributor. I did that for a couple of years and then got a show on Fox business

Speaker 2 called The Bottom Line. I did that

Speaker 2 for two years with Degan McDowell, who I love to death. She's wonderful.

Speaker 2 And then as the president was going through his selection process, you know, I wanted to,

Speaker 2 I thought this was going to be historic.

Speaker 2 But it is historic. I wanted to serve with him.
And so

Speaker 2 I made the pitch and he went through the analysis, and I was blessed that he picked me to be the Secretary of Transportation. And by the way, Sean, if you said, where do you want to serve?

Speaker 2 Before I was inside

Speaker 2 and sitting on the outside, there's a number of things I would have thought about of where I want to go.

Speaker 2 I got the best department.

Speaker 2 If you asked me to switch with anybody right now, switch with any other secretary, whose job would you like but yours?

Speaker 2 President Trump gave me the best job in all the cabinet.

Speaker 1 Really? 100%.

Speaker 1 Why do you say that?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 we build shit. We make people's lives better.

Speaker 2 I'm able to, so everybody loves infrastructure. Everybody, even Democrats like roads and bridges.
Democrats like new airports. Democrats like air traffic controllers.

Speaker 2 There's a wide agreement on

Speaker 2 what we do. And if we do it well, if I can take 20 minutes off your commute because I've helped deal with congestion, I gave you 20 minutes back with your kids,

Speaker 2 either for dinner or for lunch, or I got you back home in time,

Speaker 2 you know, to have a cup of coffee with your wife. If your flight isn't delayed or your flight isn't canceled, I'm giving people time back to be with the people that they love.

Speaker 2 And so that is, that for me is exciting. And that's what I get to, I get to do.
And there's, there's, I don't think the last administration showed up and did much. Maybe that's a really good thing.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah, we're moving fast, making a true difference in the way the department operates. And I got it.
So

Speaker 2 there is a deep state. I believe that.

Speaker 2 You have bureaucrats that fight the duly elected president and his cabinet. In my department, I have people that are like in in roads or in motor carriers.
They're there because

Speaker 2 they love it.

Speaker 2 I don't have a lot of people fighting me. I do have some, but they actually buy into the mission.
And if I can figure out a way of how can we build more roads and bridges, how can we build them safer?

Speaker 2 How can we build them faster? Like they buy into it.

Speaker 2 They love that because that's what they want to do.

Speaker 2 So I don't have the problems that other

Speaker 2 departments have.

Speaker 2 And I have, I think,

Speaker 2 a great way to make their life better.

Speaker 1 What are some of the problems you're facing?

Speaker 2 Right now at DOT,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 we're trying to rebuild the air traffic control system.

Speaker 2 So we

Speaker 2 get there, we have the DCA air crash on my first full day on the job.

Speaker 1 That was your first day on the job?

Speaker 2 First full day.

Speaker 2 I was sworn in by Clarence Thomas

Speaker 2 the night before, like at 5.30 at night. I went and toured the department.
I hadn't been there yet. Did a tour of the department.
You got to to stay out

Speaker 2 until you're in. Got sworn in.

Speaker 2 Went home.

Speaker 2 We're staying in hotels in DC. The next day,

Speaker 2 I did a ceremonial throwing in with J.D. Vance

Speaker 2 and go to the department. In there,

Speaker 2 setting up my office, getting things organized. I go home, go to bed.
And as I'm laying in bed, I get the notice that the crash happened. So it's my first full day.

Speaker 2 And yeah, that's what that's, yeah. By the way,

Speaker 2 we had DCA. That was on a, that was on a Wednesday.

Speaker 2 On Friday,

Speaker 2 the business jet crashed in the downtown Philadelphia. Then the NOTAM system, which is the notice to airmen, which will give, you can't fly without this

Speaker 2 system up and running. That crashed.
The Motley crew plane crashed

Speaker 2 in Arizona. We had the crash

Speaker 2 in Alaska. Then a crash

Speaker 2 in Toronto, in Canada. Like all these things happened.
I'm like, holy shit, like what?

Speaker 2 And the people are like, what have you broke? I'm like, I just got here. I didn't change anything.

Speaker 2 But I think all of the mismanagement from the last four years all of a sudden came to fruition in our first days there. And it made me think,

Speaker 2 I'm going to fix it. And

Speaker 2 no one sat down and said, there's a huge problem. All this shit's really old.
Like, you gotta, we don't have enough controllers. Like, there wasn't a playbook.
Like, no one laid a playbook out for me.

Speaker 2 It was me actually polling to get information to then go,

Speaker 2 so like, all of it's old. Like, everything is crappy.
I gotta, we gotta do the whole thing. And no one has a plan to bring in more air traffic controllers.
So that's been the most challenging to

Speaker 2 actually think through. How do we do it?

Speaker 2 Because it's complicated. How do we do it? And then I had to sell the Congress on,

Speaker 2 give me the money to do it. Make a big investment in me and the FAA.

Speaker 2 And by the way, they've given money in the past and they've squandered the money. Like they've made promises, but they'd never deliver.
And so I'm asking them to take a leap of faith on me.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I'm like, this is the number one, two, three, and four job of what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 Trust me, please. I'm going to do it.
And by the way, you don't have a choice not to trust me because if you don't do it now, it's only going to get worse. And they did.

Speaker 2 And so now we're starting that process of

Speaker 2 taking the years it's going to take to rebuild the infrastructure of American air traffic control. It should be state of the art.
We're going to build a state-of-the-art system.

Speaker 1 You know, we had

Speaker 1 a lot of stuff to talk about in a short amount of time. But, you know, one of the things that

Speaker 1 I found interesting that wasn't in the

Speaker 1 it's not even in my outline, but I think it's, I think it's important for everybody to hear is when we were talking about updating the infrastructure

Speaker 1 in the air traffic controller towers. I mean,

Speaker 1 can you just go, like, this is how fucking bad this shit is.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 1 this is like our power grid.

Speaker 2 This is like the power grid. That's right.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's just.

Speaker 2 The problem with it is Americans think their government is competent and their government's going to take care of the grid. They're going to take care of air traffic control.

Speaker 2 I don't have to think about it because I know, like, of course, that's what they do. They take care of the shit.
And the truth is, they don't. They don't take care of it.

Speaker 2 So you think back to the 1980s in our copper phone lines, the phone lines that we would,

Speaker 2 you're too old for this, but the rotary phone and the dial-up phone, like landline phones, those copper wires that we used in the 80s to call people.

Speaker 2 is the infrastructure we use for our communication system in air traffic control. Now the whole world has migrated from copper to new fiber fast wires.

Speaker 2 Everybody has done that years ago and we're still on this old shit.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 that's job number one, right? But

Speaker 2 connecting, connect, taking out the copper and putting in the fiber, I still on both ends of the fiber have really old equipment.

Speaker 2 And so we can lay the fiber, but in the interim, we have to slow down the fiber, ratchet it down down to make the equipment think that it's still running on copper, right?

Speaker 2 We've got to slow it until we can upgrade the equipment on either end and the software on either end of the fiber.

Speaker 2 So again, we have companies that know how to do this, right? That's great. We need new radios, new voice switches.
We have the

Speaker 1 new everything.

Speaker 2 We need new.

Speaker 2 Everything.

Speaker 2 Everything. And so

Speaker 1 my question

Speaker 2 is,

Speaker 1 rather than, I mean, I already asked this at breakfast but

Speaker 1 I would think anybody listening would have the same question if you can't I mean

Speaker 1 what is the point of redoing copper wire to fiber and then doing the all the computer equipment that's inside the tower I mean why not just build a new tower and just do this all at once

Speaker 2 so in so in in Nashville they're going to build a new tower right there's a they have a new location for a tower but in many of these these airports, there's one place for a tower.

Speaker 2 And to rebuild a tower becomes really challenging.

Speaker 1 And couldn't they just build it right next to where the old one is?

Speaker 2 Then it affects the line of sight. And they got to be able to see around the airport.

Speaker 2 And by the way, really expensive.

Speaker 2 These towers are not cheap. So

Speaker 2 I've asked for 31.5 billion.

Speaker 2 About 12 billion of that roughly is for the bricks and mortars.

Speaker 2 So you have the tower at the airport, then you go to ring and you have a traycon that controls the airspace outside of

Speaker 2 the airport. And then from there, you have in-route centers that control the airspace across the country.
All of these are really old. So if you tell me to go rebuild every

Speaker 2 center, traycon, and tower, shit, we're talking a ton of money. I can barely get them to give me the 31 billion.

Speaker 2 So I have to go with the oldest towers, the oldest traycons and the oldest centers and build those.

Speaker 2 I don't have the money to redo every tower in the country. I mean, and we're talking, you know, thousands of towers.

Speaker 2 So then the problem is I've got a tower, it's operational, it's controlling the airspace. And it's got all, by the way, it's just, it's like piecemeal together.
Right.

Speaker 2 And I have to then develop a plan to how do I come in and rip the old shit out, put the new equipment in, all the while

Speaker 2 keeping the airspace operational and keeping it safe. Right.
Which, I mean, it becomes very complicated very quickly, which is why no one's done it.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, we're not going to let hard problems stop us from doing what's necessary to keep Americans safe. And so we're going to do that.

Speaker 2 And it's, and again, the safety component is real. You've got to make sure that, again, these systems can't go down because I have planes in the air that rely on that system.

Speaker 2 And so,

Speaker 2 yeah, we the software we use is, you know,

Speaker 1 what else is like, what else is fucked up?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 1 I've been talking about the power grid for years. I mean, I did the Department of Transportation is just not something that's ever really popped up on my radar.

Speaker 1 And then you talk about this this morning, and I'm like,

Speaker 1 fuck, man.

Speaker 1 What else is out there? Yeah, that's, I mean, and that's just, that's not even all transportation. That's just air traffic controllers.
We got

Speaker 2 small and

Speaker 1 space.

Speaker 1 Everything. And then

Speaker 1 all the other administrators out there that are new, that are coming in, that are like, oh, I mean,

Speaker 1 I can't even imagine what Wright is thinking.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, walking into that job. I mean, that's

Speaker 1 people at least know about how fucked up the

Speaker 1 power grid is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 What else is there? What else is that? I mean, we talk about, I mean, I just spent a lot of time with

Speaker 1 Secretary of the Army, Driscoll.

Speaker 1 He's trying to unfuck all of that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's just

Speaker 2 everywhere you look. It's decades of shit.
Decades of mismanagement. Decades of

Speaker 2 a lack of focus on the right things. And what's great about President Trump is

Speaker 2 literally, I'm like, this is broken. This is how I want to fix it.
And his gut is amazing.

Speaker 2 He might go like, I'm like, okay, I'm going to run this through the process. But a lot of times he'll say, do it, do it.

Speaker 2 You're good. I'm like, shit, yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he backs us up.

Speaker 2 He's trying to move at a way different speed. Actually, he's not trying.
He is moving at a way different speed.

Speaker 2 And that gives us carplanche to move at a way different speed. We have now a little over three years to get all of this shit done and to move really fast and really safe.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that's what we're doing. But again, passing the buck

Speaker 2 because you want to just be a secretary, you want to be a leader, but you don't want to lead. I think that's a lot of what's happened.
And so

Speaker 2 I think we've been wildly successful

Speaker 2 in the policies we've instituted. But it's because we show up every day.
And we try. We try really hard, but

Speaker 2 just try to do what's right by the way of the American people. And even don't layer in the, a lot of this, there's a lot of political fights that we need to have, and politics is there.

Speaker 2 But a lot of this stuff is just do what's right by the American people. Make it better for the people.
Politics don't have to keep the politics out. Like air traffic control, no politics.

Speaker 2 Let's build roads and bridges. Keep the politics out.
Let's build them as fast as we can.

Speaker 2 I need the Congress to help. So roads and bridges are so expensive.
They take so long. You look at what China does.
Remarkable how fast they they build projects.

Speaker 2 But we have so many regulations

Speaker 2 around how we build, so much permitting around how we build. Even if we're going to build over a,

Speaker 2 we have a road, we're going to redo it. We've got to go a new permitting.
So

Speaker 2 if the Congress would help us restructure that, we can spend money so much more effectively. and build so much more with the same amount of money.
But again,

Speaker 2 you look at our airports, you travel anywhere in the world, beautiful Beautiful airports. Our airports are shit because we haven't reinvested in our airports.

Speaker 2 And it becomes so much more expensive in America. And it doesn't have to be.
And it takes forever. And I think there might have been a point where...
Was there ever a plan?

Speaker 1 I mean, let's go.

Speaker 1 Was there ever of a plan to reinvent? I mean, I notice this shit everywhere I go. It's like, I've been

Speaker 1 driving down the road. I mean,

Speaker 1 Done a lot of traveling because of the podcast now. We've gone to a lot of different countries.
And I mean, and, you know, I mean, I think we're pretty close to the same age.

Speaker 1 You grow up and it's like, this is the best country in the world. This is the best country in the world.
Well, I'll tell you what, you drive down the fucking highway in just about any state here

Speaker 1 and you see all the trash and shit all over the road. Then you go to some of these other countries and you're like, I don't know, man.

Speaker 1 Some of the infrastructure over here looks a little bit nicer. The roads are a little better.

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Speaker 1 You know, I mean, so what I'm asking is, I mean, isn't there, is there some kind of budget or schedule on how much money should be reinvested in airports, public transportation, trains?

Speaker 2 So we, so

Speaker 2 our budget's over $100 billion.

Speaker 2 When you get a gallon of gas, you pay a gas tax. It comes to the federal government.
We redistribute a lot of that back to the states. We keep some of it.

Speaker 2 to then give out and grant money for like big projects that need to be done.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 but then you have EVs that don't pay taxes, right? The EVs don't pay a gas tax.

Speaker 2 The money we bring into the trust fund isn't enough to cover the infrastructure needs that the country has.

Speaker 2 And I think part of the solution is you need more money, but part of the solution is you can do these projects for way less money. You could do them way faster.

Speaker 2 Let's fix, I mean, truly the permitting process that takes forever just drives up the cost of these projects, number one. And number two,

Speaker 2 if you put all these requirements on me that

Speaker 2 I have to have all these environmental

Speaker 2 climate change studies and shit on the project, and then you add onto that that I have to have DEI,

Speaker 2 I got a contract based on someone's race or their sex, all of these things are driving up the cost of a project.

Speaker 2 And if we could say, listen, we're not going to consider, again, if you're a disadvantaged business, that's great. And we want to have small business be able to compete for big projects.

Speaker 2 I'm all in favor of that. But enough of the racial sexual stuff, enough of

Speaker 2 the climate stuff, and if we can fix the permitting,

Speaker 2 we can build faster and with about the same amount of money and we can fix the country.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 we've shackled ourselves, we've become immobile. We can't build shit in this country anymore.

Speaker 2 And that becomes the problem. And so we're talking about

Speaker 2 the consequence of the bad policy. So let's not deal with

Speaker 2 the cost in the project. Let's go back to the, as Kamala Harris would say, the root cause, which is the structure on which we're forced to build,

Speaker 2 which is, it just doesn't work. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 What about safety in public transportation? I mean, it wasn't long ago.

Speaker 1 I don't, maybe there's even still there. I mean, National Guard, I think it was National Guard that was, you know, kind of activated in the New York City subway system.

Speaker 1 I mean, we just saw that poor Ukrainian girl get stabbed in the neck several times. Nobody helped her.
She bleeds out. I mean,

Speaker 1 does that fall under you? Does public transportation safety fall under

Speaker 2 in New York? So

Speaker 2 just if you take a step back, you're a liberal, right? And you're a liberal who doesn't like cars. Cars emit carbon, carbon is climate change, right? So like I want everybody on public transportation.

Speaker 2 Like that's that's what they want. I think it's more about a control as well, but they want everyone or more people on public transportation.

Speaker 2 And so if you're a liberal and you had any common sense, you'd say, well, if I want more people to ride on public transportation, I should make it really safe. I should make it really clean.

Speaker 2 I should make it beautiful. It should be the greatest experience.

Speaker 2 So, Sean Ryan and his family, if they have public transportation, they actually want to take it because they're going to get to where they're going much faster.

Speaker 2 It's going to be much quicker. They're not going to get stuck in traffic.
So, they want to take public transportation.

Speaker 2 Or Sean would say, I feel really comfortable actually sending my wife and my two kids on a train into the city because I know they're going to be safe. I know that their lives are not in danger.

Speaker 2 I feel comfortable sending them. But that's not the story of American public transit.
New York, I mean,

Speaker 2 what these cities have done is they've allowed the criminal element to converge down into the subways and on public transportation.

Speaker 2 And so you get repeat offenders, you get violent, mentally ill, people who are on this system,

Speaker 2 riding with the very good people who paid for it. And it's not safe.
And so people don't want to ride it.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm fighting with liberal cities, trying to tell them, listen, if you don't make your system safe, we're not going to fund you.

Speaker 2 If you don't clean it up, we're not going to fund you. And I get resistance over that.

Speaker 2 That's actually really good politics. Good politics is make your trains clean and safe.

Speaker 2 And everyone's going to want to ride them. Everyone's going to love you as a politician.
Why in the hell am I sitting in D.C. telling you to make your train system safe?

Speaker 2 One of the biggest complaints I get is from riders on, whether it's in Chicago or in New York or in Boston, complaining about how unsafe the system is. And there's fare jumpers and

Speaker 2 it's riddled with criminals.

Speaker 2 That should not be the American story. And so

Speaker 2 we are working. Again,

Speaker 2 the way I spend my money

Speaker 2 from Joe Biden and the requirements make it a little more challenging, but I can pull money. But I don't run them.
The local communities run them.

Speaker 2 But with the new money that's going to go out under this administration, there's going to be requirements, stricter requirements on how they need to provide safety to their citizens and their riders.

Speaker 2 But this is the,

Speaker 2 we have to have this conversation, it's idiotic.

Speaker 2 We have trains in Philadelphia, they're starting on fire, buses that start on fire.

Speaker 2 We have to look at do we take them out of service?

Speaker 2 Do we shut down the whole system? Do I put 15,000 more people on the road because they can't figure out how to run a safe system?

Speaker 2 It's a failure of liberal policies in liberal cities that we see in just just one microcosm of public transportation.

Speaker 2 And I think these mayors would be heroes if they would just pay some attention to making these systems safer and better.

Speaker 1 So how does it work then? I mean, if you're funding them,

Speaker 1 can you just break down the funding, how it works? I mean, if you're funding them, couldn't you

Speaker 1 also just fund

Speaker 1 security for them as well? Or did they, how does it work?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 on the federal system,

Speaker 2 on Amtrak, we have federal officers that work for us on Amtrak.

Speaker 2 But these systems, like New York's subway system, bus system is the MTA.

Speaker 2 They provide their own security. The city does to the system.

Speaker 2 So they have to hire the law enforcement to put them on the trains. They're the ones that have to collect the tolls.
They're the ones that have to develop, you know, do we want to do an expansion?

Speaker 2 When do we need new cars?

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 they'll come to us and say, well,

Speaker 2 we want this much money to do this project. Or,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 we want our share. By the way, I told you the gas tax, a portion of the gas tax actually goes to public transportation.

Speaker 2 The trust fund for roads and bridges of the gas tax, which the money should go to, we don't have enough money. The question becomes, why are we sending this to public transit?

Speaker 2 Maybe we should put this all on roads as opposed to carving off 20% to go to public transit. That's a different conversation.

Speaker 2 But so I look at the money that we do give them and I'm willing to have conversations to drive public safety. And if not, I threaten them with withholding the cash.

Speaker 2 And they've improved, but they have to get better. But it's also local money.

Speaker 2 So city money, it's state money, and it's our money. But our money is a big part of it.
But they're in charge of running their system. We'll do oversight, right? We do safety inspections

Speaker 2 and we also help fund. And that's the leverage point that we can use.

Speaker 1 Does that make sense? What is the pushback from...

Speaker 1 What do they even say?

Speaker 1 Hey, somebody just got stabbed to death on your public transit system. Could you make it a little safer? I mean, the entire world just saw this

Speaker 1 young blonde Ukrainian girl just stabbed in the neck. Could you clean it up a little bit?

Speaker 1 How the fuck do you, how do they, how do they push back against that?

Speaker 2 That response has been different.

Speaker 2 They've actually just, because they had no cash bail,

Speaker 2 they've changed their

Speaker 2 law.

Speaker 2 to now be able to keep some of these violent offenders behind bars when they have pending crimes instead of letting them out. So

Speaker 2 this is directly tied into the criminal justice system and the liberal idea that we don't want to incarcerate people. We want to let everybody out,

Speaker 2 no bail. And they're back on the streets, back in the subways, recommitting crimes.
You've seen with President Trump in D.C.

Speaker 2 by bringing in the National Guard, there's just a small cohort of people that create all the problems.

Speaker 2 You take them off the street, you take their guns off the street, and lo and behold, the city becomes a much safer place.

Speaker 2 So law enforcement actually works, but it's been this liberal idea of no cash bail, soft-on crime prosecutors that have driven more of the problems in the subway system.

Speaker 2 And again, the subway system is not meant for the mentally ill.

Speaker 2 That's not their home. That's not their shelter.
The cities have to figure out something else to do

Speaker 2 with the mentally ill. How do I treat them? How do I house them? But the subway system is not a place.
for the homeless or for the mentally ill.

Speaker 2 And liberals have a hard time wrapping their head around that. So they complain.
They'll tell me they're safe. They tell me that, you know, I'm crazy.

Speaker 2 But again, there's story after story of violent crimes on these systems, and the answer is really easy.

Speaker 2 Again, prosecute criminals, put criminals behind bars, stop the fare jumping, kick out the homeless.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 it's not, these are not compliance,

Speaker 2 the solution is not complicated. It's very, very easy.
It's just that

Speaker 2 their liberal ideology won't let them do it.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 that becomes the problem. Man, man.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about, I mean, you know, we're seeing more and more EVs and autonomous vehicles and,

Speaker 1 you know, I mean,

Speaker 1 is it the Robo taxi? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Is that Tesla's new

Speaker 1 taxi?

Speaker 1 And so we're seeing these self-driving cars and just all this autonomous vehicles is

Speaker 1 they're massive right now. And so what what is the what is the what is transport what is just public road systems? I mean

Speaker 1 What do they look like in five to 10 years as we continue to move down the autonomous vehicle?

Speaker 2 So we are on the cusp of the most transformative time period in American travel.

Speaker 2 Things are going to change faster

Speaker 2 in the tenure I have at DOT than any time I think in recent history. And so to talk about that, so

Speaker 2 again,

Speaker 2 autonomous technology has been remarkable.

Speaker 2 It's advancing at incredible speed. So we lose about 40,000, 42,000 lives a year on the road.
Way too many.

Speaker 2 I do think that

Speaker 2 this technology can help.

Speaker 2 People pick up their phones. Oh, look, I'm grabbing my phone and I'm driving and a text comes in or I'm texting someone like, this is the shit that kills people.

Speaker 2 Or people drink and drive. So I do think the autonomous technology is going to

Speaker 2 radically improve safety on the roadway.

Speaker 2 I want people to choose what they want, but you might find a time when you don't buy a car, which that's not me. I always have a car.

Speaker 2 Like, I like the freedom of having my own car, and I want to drive my own car. Like, maybe that's generational, but that's freedom.

Speaker 2 But there might be a time where you don't need one, and just you're going to have an autonomous vehicle come by and pick you up and drop you off.

Speaker 2 And when you're going to a grocery shop, and you're going to call one back, and you're going to get in, and you're going to go home.

Speaker 2 Or you might lease your car out into the marketplace that someone can rent it

Speaker 2 from you and it's autonomous so I think I think the the uber model with autonomous model is going to change the way people use vehicles do you think that's going to be a lot more people like a lot of people

Speaker 2 what do I say a lot more people without a car it could be or it could drive the for those who are on the cusp it'll make that it'll make it less expensive um and more user-friendly potentially um We do have the potential of with technology, if you look at so you'd think that a lot more people are going to be gravitating towards public transportation

Speaker 1 than owning their own vehicles.

Speaker 2 No, so I'm saying that you'd have an Uber model, but Ubers don't have drivers. Ubers are using autonomous vehicles and their fleet could be the I'm just using Uber as an example.

Speaker 2 Uber could have their own fleet, but you could lease your vehicle into the Uber fleet and they're all running autonomously.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 that's considered public transportation, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it would. Well, I don't know if I call Uber public transportation.
I mean, I think public transportation is when the public provides transportation with buses

Speaker 2 and trains. This is a private company providing

Speaker 1 private transit. I mean,

Speaker 1 with the stuff that we're seeing, Elon come up with robo taxis, all these things. I mean, are we going to start seeing those as

Speaker 1 public transportation? No bus drivers,

Speaker 1 school buses. 100%.

Speaker 2 And it would be,

Speaker 2 some of the modeling that I've seen, it would be cheaper.

Speaker 2 Move people, if you're not driving this big bus around in hopes that someone might want to get on it, and then you're picking up and dropping people off off the route that's not actually where they want to go.

Speaker 2 You might more cost-effectively be able to use.

Speaker 2 this autonomous technology to take people from where they are to where they actually want to go and do it cheaper than you know using the bus system to do it so yeah that we could have a public transportation component as well But also on the congestion side,

Speaker 2 again, there's a whole conversation that we have to have about

Speaker 2 how this information is used and the security of the information and individual liberty, which I am very concerned about.

Speaker 2 But if we set that aside, which I would never set it aside, but just for the conversation's sake, you could have vehicles, you know, when we look at the congestion

Speaker 2 on our streets and our roads, you can have this technology bring vehicles much closer together and move more vehicles on the same roadway because of the technology on those vehicles.

Speaker 2 So we can reduce congestion remarkably

Speaker 2 with this technology. So that'll be interesting as this is all developed.
And my job is to,

Speaker 2 as the technology evolves, I'm kind of the Goldilocks, right?

Speaker 2 I can't let regulation go too far, where if bad things happen, people get hurt, then it's going to set us back, you know, five or 10 years.

Speaker 2 And I can't be too slow because the innovators will then go somewhere else. This innovation will happen in a different country.
I have to be just right, right? And

Speaker 2 it's an art, not a science, of making sure I'm changing our rules and regulations as the technology evolves and making sure it's safe for people. But again, I want that innovation to happen here.

Speaker 2 I want autonomous vehicle technology. to be deployed from the U.S.
around the world. I don't want Chinese autonomous technology to be deployed in the US.

Speaker 2 That's a national security risk and threat for us. So we do not want that.

Speaker 2 But what else is

Speaker 2 also going to change? And by the way, so we already have, I think it's in Austin,

Speaker 2 Tesla's already doing this with the RoboTaxi. And we're going to see this, you know, how does it go there? And you'll see more deployment around the country.
But drone deliveries.

Speaker 2 Drones are going to radically change the way your products move. We're going to take vehicles off the street.
And right now they're about three and a half pound deliveries to five pound deliveries.

Speaker 2 But yeah, drones are going to deliver a ton of stuff to people.

Speaker 2 Whether you want to get a hot cup of coffee in the morning, whether you need medicine from the drugstore, whether you went shopping and you forgot to grab something at the store.

Speaker 2 Drone delivery

Speaker 2 is going to radically change the way products move.

Speaker 2 And I want that technology to be American technology, which means I have to get the regulation right. And then you've seen these Evitols, these Ubers in the air, the

Speaker 2 electric helicopter. You haven't seen these?

Speaker 1 I think I've seen.

Speaker 1 I think I've seen these.

Speaker 2 Okay, you got to check it out. So

Speaker 2 this is the next tranche of air mobility.

Speaker 1 Is this actually happening right now?

Speaker 2 Yeah, like this.

Speaker 2 Yes, 100%.

Speaker 2 Where?

Speaker 2 So we're testing them around the country. But, you know, there's a big test facility

Speaker 2 down in Texas. So what will happen is,

Speaker 2 again, Joby, Beta, we've got a number of big investments have gone into

Speaker 2 these EVITOLs.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there's different ranges on these, right? They can go 30 miles, some to 100 miles.

Speaker 2 But if you think of DC, you'll be able to go from downtown DC if they let you fly in downtown D.C., or I could even say from Reagan Airport out to Dulles. It's the cost of an Uber black

Speaker 2 and they are,

Speaker 2 you can put five people on them. They're all different models.

Speaker 2 And come right down. And so you need a pilot in them now.

Speaker 2 Eventually those will be autonomous as well.

Speaker 1 You need a pilot in them now? Right now.

Speaker 2 We have not certified them.

Speaker 2 They're going through the certification process now.

Speaker 2 We'll start off with pilots. I think they'll be autonomous at one point.
You'll be able to call one of these Uber

Speaker 2 human drones that come down, we'll pick you up and take you

Speaker 2 40 miles, 30 miles,

Speaker 2 and do it quick.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 And so when I talked about the airspace and modernization, we have more planes in the airspace right now. This is going to make it just that much more complicated.

Speaker 2 There's going to be more users of the airspace.

Speaker 2 And then you throw drones in as well.

Speaker 2 It's very, very complicated. And by the way, the U.S.
has

Speaker 2 the most complicated airspace in the world. We have more planes than anywhere.
Like no one has what we have. More complicated, more complex, more airplanes.

Speaker 2 And we're going to add into that, which is why we need to make sure we have this system

Speaker 2 brand new and we need state-of-the-art technology running it so we can get more efficient, not deploy more assets into the airspace and then have more delays.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, I was going to be

Speaker 1 going to ask that. I mean,

Speaker 1 the autonomous stuff, I mean, that's,

Speaker 1 we're now making fighter jets that are outperforming world-class fighter pilots autonomously. And so then, you know, when I hear that, I mean, I just had

Speaker 1 Brandon Tsang on from Shield AI who just did the, you know, big unveiling of the X-bat.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 I mean, when you see stuff like that come out,

Speaker 1 it's like, oh, man, like commercial pilots, done,

Speaker 1 done. We have something that's going to outperform an F-22, but we're not autonomously doing commercial airlines yet.
That's, I mean, it's done, right?

Speaker 2 It's done.

Speaker 1 And then when you're talking about all these drones and stuff, all the, I mean, I'm just thinking, all right, what is the sky going to look like?

Speaker 1 when nobody's going to Walgreens, nobody's going to Walmart, nobody's going to the grocery store, nobody, and everything is being delivered by drones. I mean, you already see all the Amazon

Speaker 1 delivery vehicles and UPS and FedEx and they're everywhere. And so what's the sky look like when deliveries become fully autonomous?

Speaker 1 And then you're going to have to have to deconflict all the commercial in private airlines from all those drones. And so if you don't make those autonomous, then we're going to have

Speaker 1 a lot of human error. a lot more human error than we have right now because the skies are going to be more crowded.
So I would think it's just a matter of time before all commercial,

Speaker 1 anything that leaves the ground is autonomous.

Speaker 2 So I think as you have more acceptance for autonomous vehicles, which probably make people feel that that's one threshold, the autonomous Evitols, these Ubers in the air,

Speaker 2 I don't know that people are going to want to get on a jetliner. and have it autonomous.
I decide that maybe one day, I think that's the last tranche.

Speaker 2 I I think people want to have a pilot on their airplane. I think so.

Speaker 2 I do. I know I do.

Speaker 2 I want a pilot.

Speaker 2 The Evitol, yeah, I'd probably do that with autonomous. But on the jet,

Speaker 2 I want a pilot. Now, it's all becoming far more automated and there's far more technology.
You know, you can.

Speaker 1 I don't know, man. Then we had all that DAI shit.
We got all these people that are being pilots that should never have been a fucking pilot.

Speaker 1 I might lean towards the

Speaker 1 autonomous version, to be honest with you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but

Speaker 2 you mentioned the fighter jet stuff. I mean, it was like I read an article about how the

Speaker 2 autonomous fighter jet versus the Ace American pilots, they'll take risks that the pilot won't, right? They'll do shit that no pilot would do. taking risks that no pilot would take, which makes them

Speaker 2 that much better in the airspace, which truly is wild.

Speaker 2 And again, if this is your space, but you think about the future of warfighting and how is I mean, the revolution that's going to happen on how battles are fought

Speaker 2 is,

Speaker 2 everything is going to change. And even I even mentioned drones.
So drones have amazing commercial

Speaker 2 benefits. to America.
But on the flip side, there's a substantial national security risk to drones, right? And And so how do you marry those two things together?

Speaker 2 How do we let the commercial side evolve, but also share the concern for these are actually very dangerous tools that can be used to harm the country? And we're working through that right now.

Speaker 2 And there's good debates that happen. And we have to have the technology here.
but we have to be smart about how we do it.

Speaker 2 And you have government all working together to figure out what that balance is.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about shipbuilding a little bit. I mean, I didn't realize that shipbuilding fell under DOT as well.
I mean,

Speaker 1 that's a topic that we talk about quite a bit here.

Speaker 2 So we have, by the way, so I have roads, bridges, semis,

Speaker 2 pipelines, ports.

Speaker 1 Pipelines, too, huh?

Speaker 2 Airports, airplanes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we regulate we regulate all of the equipment on cars on the safety side.

Speaker 2 I don't know what else I'm I'm leaving.

Speaker 2 We have trains, public transportation.

Speaker 2 So yeah,

Speaker 2 it's a huge department.

Speaker 2 But I think if you look at what's happened in global shipbuilding, you know, you had the, you know,

Speaker 2 we've lost the industry here. And I think it comes back to

Speaker 2 there's a number of factors. One of it was regulation.

Speaker 2 Other labor factors came into play, but it went overseas, right? We're in, you know, South Korea, a huge producer.

Speaker 2 But then China one day says, we want to build ships. And shit, in less than 10 years, they're a global powerhouse in shipbuilding.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think U.S. is less than 1% of global shipbuilding capacity.
China is over 50%.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 2 And so then the question becomes, is that a problem?

Speaker 1 I'd say that's a big problem.

Speaker 2 It's a big freaking problem, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, so what's interesting is like Trump saw that and it's like, hell no, we're going to build ships in America again. Or even steel.

Speaker 2 You need to produce steel in your country or you're screwed, right?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 we're navigating

Speaker 2 the president's priorities around shipbuilding, which are ours as well.

Speaker 2 But we forgot how to do it. Like we don't know how to do it well.
And

Speaker 2 it's more expensive to do it here right now. And so what we have to do is then

Speaker 2 we need investments from government.

Speaker 2 to bring in industries, U.S. companies with foreign partners that know how how to do this, and set up shop to start building here.

Speaker 2 And I think there's a number of ways we can bring in the revenue to pay for it, where

Speaker 2 we can take it off the shipping industry itself, even the foreign, the foreign carriers or the

Speaker 2 foreign ships to pay for it. But that, we're working with Commerce on that and with

Speaker 2 with OMB

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 figure out how we're going to accomplish the president's goals to make sure we build an America again, because this is a huge risk.

Speaker 2 There was a time that we like we owned the seas, man, like we were the best. We built all the ships, we sailed the ships with the best sailors.

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 critically important for our national defense, and we just kind of gave it up. We just kind of stopped doing it.

Speaker 2 And again, we had dumb people in government that didn't see the risks of letting these industries go.

Speaker 2 And now we deal with the consequence of now, how do we build it back? How do we reinvigorate these industries? And it's going to take us time. It's going to take us money, but it's important for

Speaker 2 long-term viability.

Speaker 1 You know what's interesting? I don't know if you have any insight to this, but I mean,

Speaker 1 when we talk about

Speaker 1 the allocation of taxes and

Speaker 1 how bad the

Speaker 1 energy grid is

Speaker 1 in the country and a lot of the challenges that you're facing as Secretary of Transportation, I mean, where has all the fucking money gone that has been allotted to all these different organizations and institutions for years and years and years?

Speaker 1 I mean, we haven't seen any. I mean,

Speaker 1 I'm unaware of any major improvements in our power structure.

Speaker 1 I'm familiar in any major

Speaker 1 improvements in our roads or our bridges and our shipbuilding and any of the stuff that we've talked about. I mean, we just talked about the air traffic controlling towers.

Speaker 1 Where did all the fucking money go?

Speaker 1 There's been zero improvements, at least that I've seen.

Speaker 2 And I love that you talked about the grid because, I mean, whatever.

Speaker 1 It's a fucking atrocious.

Speaker 2 And what happens? The grid goes down. Like

Speaker 2 a lot of people die.

Speaker 2 A lot of people die.

Speaker 2 And again, that there hasn't been someone to say, hey, I'm going to grab that. I'm going to fix it.
So I'll give you, I don't.

Speaker 1 Not only that, not only that, there's been money allocated

Speaker 1 for these institutions. Where did it go?

Speaker 2 So, okay, so I can only tell you our experience. So air traffic control.
I'm just going to give you this one.

Speaker 2 20 years ago, they said, we need a new brand new air traffic control system. We're going to call it NextGen.
Next generation of,

Speaker 2 I think the Congress spent $20 billion on this. They didn't do shit.
Like,

Speaker 2 they spent the money. They had ideas.
They did white papers. They talked about it.
It took so freaking long that the technology they were looking at deploying, it took so long to study it, so long to

Speaker 2 even

Speaker 2 think about developing it and get the regulation right for it. By the time they might be ready to deploy the technology, it was already freaking old.
Like

Speaker 2 it was already old shit. So, I mean, again, you have to be thoughtful on having the best technology, but you have to be able to build up the technology that you deploy.
And

Speaker 2 20 billion wasted, and now I sit here and go, okay, but we have to do it. That's what we have to do it fast and do it right.
So I bet the same thing happened with the grid. People piss away the money.

Speaker 2 They're not smart. They're not thoughtful.
They're not strategic. And so we sit here with,

Speaker 2 but again, who knows,

Speaker 2 if you don't watch your show, who knows if the grid is shit? I think most people think, oh no, the government, they won't let that happen. The grid's got to be great.

Speaker 2 They're amazing.

Speaker 2 Of course they look out for us. They do the right stuff.
And lo and behold, you're like, yeah, no, it's pretty actually vulnerable. It's a problem.
So I think that's, so back to shipbuilding.

Speaker 2 It's the president setting it as a priority. And when he says it, I think most people go like, yeah, actually, that probably is really important.
We probably should build ships in America.

Speaker 2 Let's figure out how to do it.

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Speaker 2 I have the Merchant Marine Academy.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 this is a national academy.

Speaker 2 They need

Speaker 2 a commission from a member of Congress or a senator to go to the academy. It's the schools for free.
And

Speaker 2 we want these excellent U.S. Mariners in our fleet that

Speaker 2 if the military needs assistance, we can pull these great Mariners to the academy,

Speaker 2 pull them into the government, into the Navy. And

Speaker 2 yeah, and they also provide the support for,

Speaker 2 they're the support mission for the military as well, providing a lot of the equipment and assets that you need as you're deploying around the world. So really important young people.

Speaker 2 I found out that in the last administration, the kids at the academy went four months without hot water. I'm like, well, how?

Speaker 2 How can they not have hot water? Well, the last administration wanted to have electric boilers, and electric boilers don't work.

Speaker 2 You need to have the oil or the natural gas boilers that actually provide heat. So they couldn't figure out the electric boilers for this massive campus.
And the kids went without hot water.

Speaker 2 And by the way, they were like,

Speaker 2 we're tough and we're strong. Like, we're the merchant marine.
We don't have hot water. Their dishwasher broke.
And so, like, they were eating off paper plates and paper forks. At a U.S.

Speaker 2 service academy, this is the way these young men and women have been treated. and they're the most amazing young men and women I'm like holy

Speaker 2 I'm I have faith in America when I see those young people at that academy and how hard they work it's a great school

Speaker 2 and but it's just neglect we've neglected our country we've neglected the infrastructure of our country

Speaker 2 and we spent a ton of money we're 37 trillion dollars in debt and you're like what what the hell have we gotten for all this money where are the roads and bridges they spent it they spent a trillion $800 billion in that infrastructure package I told you that my former congressman who I ran against, he championed.

Speaker 2 It was all supposed to go to roads and bridges. And then we had

Speaker 2 the Build Back Better Inflation Reduction Act. I mean,

Speaker 2 we sent a ton of money to roads and bridges. So outside of the normal funding, we put $2 trillion.

Speaker 2 into road and bridge funding. I'm like, where in the frick are the roads and bridges? Like, what the hell did you do with the money? Because I don't see beautiful infrastructure in this country.

Speaker 2 You're spending the money, but I think Americans have to demand we get something back for it. I want a new grid.

Speaker 2 I want new airports. I want new roads.

Speaker 2 I want this shit to work. But to do that, you have to elect smart people who are not focused on DEI and climate.
They're actually focused on

Speaker 2 providing for the American people, delivering for the American people. And I just don't, I don't think that's been the model.
And President Trump has absolutely flipped it on its head. It's like, no,

Speaker 2 we give deliverables.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 excuse me.

Speaker 1 What can Americans expect

Speaker 1 improvement-wise from Department of Transportation in the next three years?

Speaker 2 So you're going to see us build faster, right? We're going to build infrastructure faster. We are going to push safety

Speaker 2 on

Speaker 2 our transit systems. You know, we're not going to fund transit systems that aren't aren't going to make their systems safer for their ridership.

Speaker 2 We're going to, I'd like to see high-speed rail in America. I really would.

Speaker 2 It's possible.

Speaker 2 There's a project now, Bright Line West, that goes from Las Vegas to L.A.

Speaker 2 It's somewhat over budget, but there's a real opportunity.

Speaker 2 to have high-speed rail here. I think we should have it, but

Speaker 2 we should be able to build it at a reasonable cost. We shouldn't,

Speaker 2 you mentioned I cut the California high-speed rail.

Speaker 2 It was going to be a $100 billion project. They spent $16 billion and hadn't laid one track.
I mean, just pissed away the money.

Speaker 2 I think you're going to see air traffic control way better. It's going to take me time.
I can't fix this stuff overnight, but you're going to see massive improvements in

Speaker 2 air travel. And you're going to see the way people and products move in this country radically change.
The autonomous vehicles, the EVITELs, and the drones will substantially change as

Speaker 2 we implement these new rules.

Speaker 2 We talked about road safety. I don't know if you followed this, but we have all of these truck drivers that don't speak English, number one.

Speaker 2 And number two, the Democrats do a great job of contorting laws. So we have

Speaker 2 truck drivers that are getting what's called a non-domiciled CDL. Foreigners can get a non-domiciled CDL, commercial driver's license, and drive truck in America.

Speaker 2 And it was really made for if you come from Tennessee and go to Wisconsin, you're non-domiciled in Wisconsin because you're from Tennessee, you can get a non-domiciled CDL in Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 It was for American citizens going from one state to the next. They've contorted it to let all these 10, 15 million people that have come into the country actually get a commercial driver's license.

Speaker 2 And they can drive a tanker, they can drive a school bus.

Speaker 2 And we're seeing these crashes around the country of people who are foreigners that

Speaker 2 the licenses were issued unlawfully in places like California. A lot of them can't speak English, which is a requirement under the law.
And so

Speaker 2 we're pushing to make sure that we actually have states follow the law and we keep our roads safer because we don't have people who

Speaker 2 they can't understand the language and they have a CDL. that has been issued to them.
That's unlawful and they actually don't have the skill sets to be driving a big rig in America. Like,

Speaker 2 that's the stuff that I think will change. And it's safety-driven, it's speed-driven.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think it's going to be a revolutionary time in the next three and a half years. So, we'll see those,

Speaker 1 we will definitely see these improvements before this administration. 100% time.
100%.

Speaker 2 I think you'll see in your airport, you'll see

Speaker 2 these EVITOL pads. You'll see a pad there.

Speaker 2 And maybe as you have people take trains and cars into the city, you might say by the end of this three years, you have a service that'll go from the airport to a port in downtown. Oh, is this?

Speaker 1 That's not just DC.

Speaker 2 Oh, no. So these will be deployed everywhere.

Speaker 2 You'll take a five-minute ride from the airport, and you'll be in the city in Nashville.

Speaker 2 And there you said, you're good to go. Yeah,

Speaker 2 they'll be everywhere. So

Speaker 1 what do they call these EBITDAs? Yeah, so what is there gonna be like a station full of a bunch of these things that all go to and from the airport? Yeah, they'll be just a huge parking lot

Speaker 2 They'll they'll they'll be running back and forth out there to get charged up. Yeah, but it'll be it'll be like

Speaker 1 Will people park around them? Yep. You know what I mean? Like a like a like an airport park your car get on the plane.

Speaker 2 Or better. I'll park I'll park somewhere in the city and I'll take one out to the airport, get off and go onto the jetway and get on my flight.

Speaker 2 Or I got off my flight and I'll go get in one and I'll go into the city. If you're in New York,

Speaker 2 you'll go from Manhattan and you'll

Speaker 2 fly out to Long Island. And

Speaker 2 the choppers are loud. These are, you barely hear them.

Speaker 2 They're pretty fast. You're up and you're over and you're out.
Cheaper, faster.

Speaker 2 Moving people.

Speaker 1 That's cool. Yeah.
That's cool.

Speaker 1 Let's move into some NASA stuff. Sure.
Man, you got a lot going on. Nine kids, husband,

Speaker 1 Secretary of Transportation and NASA Administrator.

Speaker 1 So what are your plans with NASA?

Speaker 2 So the president put me in as the interim NASA administrator until he picks the actual administrator. And so here's the problem had been without someone in the role,

Speaker 2 the organization languishes. And so he said, go in, give it direction, and let's start to move, which is exactly what I've done.
And again, a couple of the big things that we have to do is

Speaker 2 we have to get to the moon, and we have to have a replacement for the International Space Station.

Speaker 2 Those are the two big top priorities that we have right now. Number one is that we got to get the moon right, then we're going to have to figure out what we do for our second space station.

Speaker 2 And so that's that's exactly what I've done.

Speaker 2 So we had a situation where.

Speaker 1 Why haven't we been to the fucking moon?

Speaker 2 Well, we have been.

Speaker 1 Why haven't we been back to the moon?

Speaker 1 How long?

Speaker 2 It'll be 54 years.

Speaker 1 54 years. We just went, we're like, oh, we don't need to explore that anymore.

Speaker 2 I think that there was...

Speaker 1 It was in there. Box checked.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was expensive. It was expensive to go to the moon.
And then it was also,

Speaker 2 we'd done it, And there was more focus on lower Earth orbit, right? We wanted to evolve that technology.

Speaker 2 And so, again, the Chinese want to go to the moon. So at the south pole of the moon, there's ice.
And ice means oxygen, ice means water, ice means life, right?

Speaker 2 So you have, I mean, that's the key component. And

Speaker 2 the Chinese are trying to get there. We want to beat them back to the moon.
And again, we're not going to go with our 1970s landers. It's going to be a lot bigger, bolder missions.

Speaker 2 But what's important is what we learn in the mission to the moon and how we do it on the moon and how we have sustained human life on the moon, how we have a base on the moon.

Speaker 2 What we learn there is going to help us get to Mars and beyond.

Speaker 2 That is the way station,

Speaker 2 the stepping stone to go out

Speaker 2 and explore

Speaker 2 other places in the universe. And so I think

Speaker 2 the organization wasn't focused.

Speaker 2 The last administration hadn't, they were trying to pivot NASA into, from human space exploration, which is, by the way, NASA is the only one that does human space exploration.

Speaker 2 No other agency does that, right?

Speaker 2 They were trying to turn it into a climate change DEI

Speaker 2 organization.

Speaker 2 Actually, I brought you a book.

Speaker 2 Oh, boy. So this is...
This is what they spent a couple million dollars on a number of different comic books. So this is one that is first

Speaker 1 woman

Speaker 2 in space. And

Speaker 2 no problem with the first woman in space, but

Speaker 2 it's a book that is full of

Speaker 2 DEI and gender

Speaker 2 crap, as opposed to saying,

Speaker 2 I don't care what your color is. I don't care what your gender is.
I want the best astronauts on these missions. That's what I want.

Speaker 2 And millions of dollars was spent on

Speaker 2 books like this at NASA.

Speaker 1 Millions of dollars.

Speaker 2 As opposed to thinking of millions of dollars to invest in science and technology that's going to get us to the moon before the Chinese. And so

Speaker 2 what we've had is, again,

Speaker 2 so think about this. So 10 years ago,

Speaker 2 I don't think anyone would have envisioned that we would have a space economy like we have right now. And SpaceX and Elon Musk revolutionized kind of how we think about commercial space.

Speaker 2 I don't know how much it used to cost to get a

Speaker 2 satellite into space, but it was really expensive. What SpaceX has done is brought the cost down.
I mean, for a small satellite, it's going to cost you $300,000.

Speaker 2 For a little bigger one, it's going to cost you a million dollars. But people can get, companies can get satellites into space way cheaper than ever before.

Speaker 2 But no one would have thought about the space economy but for this evolution

Speaker 2 in

Speaker 2 rocket, rocket technology, Elon's ability to reuse rockets,

Speaker 2 all fantastic, right? And so, right now, it's a $600 billion business. We'll be at a trillion dollars in short order.
It's the fastest-growing part of the U.S. economy, actually, is this part of it.

Speaker 2 And it's really important for

Speaker 2 our national security side of the aisle.

Speaker 2 We're civil, but there's a national security component to it as well. But on the flip side,

Speaker 2 there's, so I told you, we're going back to the moon

Speaker 2 in early February. First time in 54 years.
It's called Army.

Speaker 1 Early February is in

Speaker 2 a couple of months.

Speaker 1 Four months? Four months.

Speaker 2 Do you know what the mission's called?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Do you know what Apollo is? What Apollo was?

Speaker 2 The Apollo missions.

Speaker 1 What do you mean?

Speaker 2 So NASA's Apollo mission. It brought us,

Speaker 2 that was our mission to the moon, right? Everyone around the world knew what it was. Everyone knew NASA.
Everyone knew what we were about at NASA and the Apollo missions to the moon.

Speaker 2 Everyone knew the space shuttles, right?

Speaker 2 The shuttle missions. Everyone knew what we did.
And we are about to send, first time in 54 years, Artemis II back to the moon.

Speaker 2 And I bet you 97% of Americans have no idea that we're doing it and no idea what it is. It's a huge problem.

Speaker 2 So NASA lives off the fumes of what they did in the past. They're not living off what we're doing in the future.
What's the vision for the future of NASA? What are the future missions?

Speaker 2 Where are we going?

Speaker 1 Wait, so we're going back to the moon in four months, in February.

Speaker 2 We're not going to land. We're going out and around the moon and coming back.
Why are we doing that?

Speaker 1 What's that? What are we going to learn from that?

Speaker 2 So we're testing the technology, right?

Speaker 2 You want to take things in steps, right? You just don't want to do everything in one step.

Speaker 2 You want to go through a stepping stone process. And this is, we're going to go back, all right, out and around, come back.

Speaker 1 Well, we did take a step 54 years ago. We did.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 there is a reason to go back.

Speaker 1 No, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Shouldn't the next step be a little bit bigger than the first?

Speaker 2 Oh, it will. So we're going to stay this time, right?

Speaker 2 That is the key component. And so

Speaker 2 we gave a directive for

Speaker 2 surface vision technology, right? So we can have power on the surface of the moon. We think we can get that done by 2030.
And you can have sustained human life, missions, bringing products,

Speaker 2 equipment to the moon's surface. Those don't have to be manned.
But yeah,

Speaker 2 it's going to be cool. There's helium-3 on the moon, an amazing power source if you bring some of that back to the back to Earth.

Speaker 1 So that's 100% true. There's helium.
Helium-3.

Speaker 1 We've had conflicting reports on that. We've heard that China

Speaker 1 is mining helium-3 off the moon, actually, right now.

Speaker 2 I don't know about that, but I think we want access to this remarkable power source,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 So again,

Speaker 2 that's just one component of

Speaker 2 what you might get from the moon. You don't listen to an idea.
There was a time that I don't know who said this, but he who controls the seas, controls the world.

Speaker 2 There was a time that that was, I think he who controls space controls the world.

Speaker 2 And I think part of that is the moon component

Speaker 2 and making sure that we're the ones that are there. And we come, we do things differently, right?

Speaker 2 We have all of these international partners that are working with us that believe in transparency and openness about what we're doing and how we're doing it. Chinese have a very different model.

Speaker 2 There's no separation between the civil and military sides of their space.

Speaker 2 And again, do we want to cede? I don't know if in your military experience, should we cede the moon to the Chinese? And are there any national security risks to that?

Speaker 2 Do I want to find out? I don't really want to find that out.

Speaker 2 But the point is, we're late. We're delayed in our mission to the moon.
And so what I've said is we're going to open this up and let different companies compete to see who can get us there first.

Speaker 2 Right? I want to get there before the Chinese number one, and I want to get there before President Trump leaves office. That's what President Trump wants as well.
He's given that directive. And so

Speaker 2 when you have companies compete, America wins. I got two really rich guys that have space companies that want to compete against each other.
And when they do,

Speaker 2 there's going to be great evolution in technology and a great race, not just against China, but against American companies to see who's going to get the honor of doing it first, of putting American astronauts.

Speaker 2 back on the moon at this time. It's going to be almost 60 years since the last time we were there.

Speaker 1 Man.

Speaker 2 Which is pretty cool.

Speaker 1 So in February, we're going around the moon. Have we ever done that before?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we did that. Well, we did that back in the 70s, right? We were there.

Speaker 2 But this is, we're going to go, I mean, we're going with way bigger equipment, way more sophisticated equipment this time, which means it's more complicated.

Speaker 2 The complication of what we're trying to do today is different than what we did.

Speaker 2 in the 70s, just because of the evolution of the technology. And so it's good to, it's, and by the way, what we,

Speaker 2 the technology that SpaceX is working on with their vision on how we get to the lunar surface with their landers is what we're going to actually need to to get to

Speaker 2 to Mars. What we're doing with fission technology

Speaker 2 on the lunar surface and the work we're doing on nuclear propulsion is also how you're going to get us. to the to Mars and back again.

Speaker 2 So a lot is happening, but you had this agency that was adrift, that wasn't really focused and i've tried in the short tenure i'm going to have there is to give it focus give it a direction um and inspire it and part of my job too is and is i gotta i gotta sell the missions if america look in the you're like we're going back to the moon

Speaker 2 in february like what like holy it's like dumb and dumber we landed on the moon

Speaker 2 it's amazing um and that's and i think that's that's the mission i think there's opportunities too to partner with

Speaker 2 one of the greatest brand in the world is NASA. Global national brand.
NASA

Speaker 2 is premium. I think we can partner.
We can't take partnership money at NASA, but we can partner with companies.

Speaker 2 And in the partnership, we get them to advertise their product, but also our mission. Because Americans need to know what we're doing, why we're doing it.

Speaker 2 And when Americans know about it and they care about it, then the Congress cares about it and the Congress funds it.

Speaker 2 And again, I think that's a really important part of what the role is, what I've done and the next administrator will have to do as well is you got to sell the mission, you got to sell, you got to sell the vision, you got to stop living off the past.

Speaker 2 Let's inspire people for the future.

Speaker 2 I want the eight-year-old kid

Speaker 2 somewhere in Missouri to not be like, we did this in 1970. That was great.
No, like, I want them to go, this is what we're doing right now.

Speaker 2 Like, in my time, the cool shit that NASA is doing, I want to do that too. Like, I want to be part of that.
I want to give my life to this, you know, to this organization, this mission.

Speaker 2 I want to be an astronaut myself. But that takes us talking about it and talking about it passionately and effectively to let America know what it is and what we're doing.

Speaker 1 Can you talk a little bit? I mean, so you have,

Speaker 1 if I heard this correctly, you have Blue Origin and SpaceX pitted against each other to land somebody on the moon. Did I hear that right? You did.
How did you incentivize them for that?

Speaker 2 So, again,

Speaker 2 SpaceX,

Speaker 2 remarkable. Like,

Speaker 2 they've re-envisioned how, I hate to use the word re-envision because I feel like I'm a Democrat. Re-envisioned,

Speaker 2 but space launches and made it an incredibly profitable company. So SpaceX had the contract to get us to the moon.
They were supposed to get us there in 24.

Speaker 2 They then pushed the contract back to 27.

Speaker 2 And about five weeks ago, they came back and said, well, no, it's not 27. It's going to be the end of 28.

Speaker 2 Well, if this keeps getting pushed back, shit, are we going to beat the Chinese?

Speaker 2 We're not going to get there in President Trump's term. That's a problem.

Speaker 2 So I asked, I said, SpaceX, listen, if you guys need us to modify your contract, how to help you accelerate your mission to the moon for us, let us know what you need.

Speaker 2 And I told them as well, I'm going to talk to others about can they do it faster? So I talked to Blue Origin. Hey, because they, by the way, they have a later.

Speaker 2 So I'm talking about Artemis 3 when we land on the moon. SpaceX has Artemis 4 landing on the moon.
Blue Origin has Artemis 5 landing on the moon. So they're working on a lander.

Speaker 2 So I said, hey, is there any way you could pull up

Speaker 2 your lander to get us to the moon faster?

Speaker 2 And then I asked some others as well. And Blue came back and said, we think we can do this by the summer

Speaker 2 of 28.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 And you have to modify our current contract. I'm like, yeah, we'll do that.
And I'm going to modify X's contract. So I announced

Speaker 2 we're going to open it up and we're going to let these companies compete. Whoever can do it first and fastest and the best, we're going to take.
And so we did.

Speaker 2 And what's great now is you have SpaceX really focused on this mission to the moon. You have Blue really focused on their mission to the moon.

Speaker 2 And you have two really rich guys that own these companies that are very competitive,

Speaker 2 that are going to compete. And America is going to win in this.

Speaker 2 We win because of this competition. And we're going to put out a request for information for others to see if they have better, bold, big ideas that could also get there faster.

Speaker 2 And we'll see what they come back with. I haven't done that yet because

Speaker 2 Blue and SpaceX have current contracts with us to land on the moon. So I was able to...

Speaker 2 I'm able to modify those contracts and do it right now, as opposed to engaging others that might have great ideas. I can only do that after the shutdown ends.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 So it's an exciting time. Thinking.

Speaker 1 Was that your idea?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Nice thinking.

Speaker 2 Well, this end with the team would go like, can we do this? Should we do this?

Speaker 2 How can we help SpaceX?

Speaker 2 How can we engage Blue?

Speaker 2 But again, I'm the one who said I'm going to call the ball and we're going to do this. And

Speaker 2 the president loves competition. The president

Speaker 2 wants America to to win. And so the race is on, right? And they're both passionate about it.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 it's a good thing. It doesn't come without me taking some heat.
I don't know why it took me to get to this point. When the first contracts were set up, it should have been a competition to begin with.

Speaker 2 We should have not picked one. We should have had a couple companies compete for us.

Speaker 2 That happened at the start of the Biden administration.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 it's going to be great.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm excited.

Speaker 1 I'm excited.

Speaker 1 I want to see what February is all about. That'll be, man, I had no idea we were doing that.
So

Speaker 2 the Artemis II astronauts, I've got to know them. That's the ones that are going.

Speaker 2 Amazing.

Speaker 2 You should have them on the show.

Speaker 2 You should go to Houston and sit down with them.

Speaker 2 You're going to love them. Some of the smart, it makes your country proud.
So three Americans, one Canadian that are on this mission.

Speaker 2 Smart, great people.

Speaker 2 The training they go through. By the way, during the shutdown, we made sure it's like, listen, you can't, we're not going to shut down our mission to the moon.
You can't stop that and then start it.

Speaker 2 The safety of the mission is critical.

Speaker 2 So that whole, all the science and all the movement around this Artemis II mission is fully funded and fully functional right now, not being affected by the shutdown.

Speaker 2 But we have the rocket, right? We've just put the capsule on top of the rocket.

Speaker 2 In December, we're going to roll the rocket out to the launch pad, go through all this testing. And it was supposed to go in April.
We think it's going to go in February.

Speaker 2 And yeah, it's a roughly 10-day mission out to the moon and back. By the way, the capsule is so small.

Speaker 2 If you go down there, we'll put you in the capsule to see where they... where they where they live for all these days.
Wow. Not big.

Speaker 2 They have to know each other.

Speaker 2 So, where do you use the restroom? Like, what the hell? Like, how does this, how does this work? And you had to see how it's constructed and the size of it.

Speaker 2 And they'd love to sit on a talk table. We'll set that up.

Speaker 1 I would love to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Thank you. And then, if you can read some more literature on, you know, the woke coloring books and comic books from NASA.

Speaker 1 I will. I will.

Speaker 1 Any other aspirations or anything you want to talk about with NASA?

Speaker 2 After that,

Speaker 2 we've got to focus on what we do on lower Earth orbit and the replacement to the space station. Do we have corporate partners that

Speaker 2 we have to be an anchor at NASA?

Speaker 2 But we need to see if we can get more private capital in. We want to have sustained

Speaker 2 Americans in lower Earth orbit. So that's in the works now.
It's been paused a little bit during the shutdown, but we have to get those contracts and that competition out there.

Speaker 2 That's important.

Speaker 2 We have a restructure that's going to come. Again,

Speaker 2 I think I want the right leaders. I want the right leaders with the right teams to accomplish the missions.
Sometimes you can get bloat.

Speaker 2 And if you have a conference call with 250 people, people on the conference call, there's a problem. No decisions can be made with 250 people on a conference call.

Speaker 2 That's some of the shit that happens.

Speaker 2 So we are going to, we're going to, we're going to restructure the leadership. We're going to restructure the organization with people who

Speaker 2 are mission-driven, that are accountable.

Speaker 2 And I think that part of it will be really important to make sure that this

Speaker 2 is more successful than it's been in the past. You mentioned, like, so I took, I don't, I've told everyone,

Speaker 2 I don't want to be the administrator, I can't be the administrator of NASA. I'm not asking, I've never asked to be the administrator of NASA.
I have said, though, and I've asked people to think about

Speaker 2 I think that if NASA was under DOT, I've suggested that's a good thing. Some people have been like, that's a good idea.
Some people are like, I hate that idea, but it was my job to put it out there.

Speaker 2 Here's the problem.

Speaker 2 People are trying to preserve NASA.

Speaker 2 NASA is broken. It has been like, what has NASA done that you're proud of in the last 15 years, last 20 years?

Speaker 1 Can't think of anything.

Speaker 2 25 years ago was a space station.

Speaker 2 That was pretty cool. It's an elegant, beautiful machine.
That's pretty great. Like,

Speaker 2 What are we doing?

Speaker 2 And so they're preserving a model.

Speaker 2 I do think you have to, again, don't send it to DOT, send it to Commerce.

Speaker 2 You want a secretary that's going to fight for it, that's going to advocate for it, has presidential engagement on it.

Speaker 2 It sits out there

Speaker 2 with an administrator, and

Speaker 2 it can be pushed and shoved and cajoled in ways that I think hasn't benefited it.

Speaker 2 And so to have someone, again, don't, by the way, it would never happen happen under my term anyway, but I think under a future DOT secretary or a future

Speaker 2 commerce secretary, it can't go under war. That's a problem for us.

Speaker 2 But you need to have different leadership, different engagement. The model that we're using right now hasn't given us results.
We spend a lot of money, but what the hell have you gotten for it?

Speaker 2 Again, we have some cool science missions. We actually, we do.
But big things that inspire people, we're not doing it. We are going to to now.

Speaker 2 So that's been, but the president's in the process. He'll pick someone to lead the organization.
And I'll be 100% supportive. And we'll move, you know, we'll move seamlessly forward.

Speaker 2 But the moments that I have at NASA,

Speaker 2 I'm not going to waste a day. I haven't wasted a day.

Speaker 2 I think we've done more in 10 weeks than has happened in the last 10 years to get the organization aligned behind what's critical, which is this mission to the moon.

Speaker 2 And I think even with this competition,

Speaker 2 it's going to bear fruit in the coming years.

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 1 That's awesome to hear.

Speaker 1 Do you think Jared Isaacsman has a

Speaker 1 chance to

Speaker 1 get that slot?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think

Speaker 2 I know the president's talked to him. I've talked to him.
So yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 the president

Speaker 2 had this not the top of mind for the president, is he's over there driving seven or eight peace deals. I had a text from him.
He's like, I'm bringing trillions of of money back to the U.S.

Speaker 2 Like the amount he fights to get investment here, money here, peace deals there.

Speaker 2 But he does, he'll pick someone. And I think he'll pick, you know, someone that's great that'll lead it forward and

Speaker 2 we'll be successful as a country. It's cool.

Speaker 2 With NASA.

Speaker 1 Well, Secretary, I know you have a flight to catch her pretty soon, so we're going to have to end this.

Speaker 2 I tell you what, just one last, can I give you a warning?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Don't, like, you go out there and you start swinging that that axe,

Speaker 2 you'll chop your leg off. Okay, so just be careful, all right? Just be, I don't want to hear like Sean Ryan lost a leg or like chopped

Speaker 2 a toe off or something.

Speaker 1 So just be careful.

Speaker 2 The toe. I'm going to send you a toe that you chop off.

Speaker 1 But you listen, thanks for having me, man.

Speaker 2 I appreciate it. It's been a blast.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. It was an honor to have you here.
So thank you for making the