Here’s What It’s Really Like to Live as a Christian in the Holy Land

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Speaker 2 Thank you for doing this.

Speaker 2 So you first moved to the Holy Land in 1996? Correct. Yep.
As a nun.

Speaker 2 How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

Speaker 4 Well, it's become a very difficult time for them there.

Speaker 4 Basically, the Christians are in the same situation as the Muslims being a Palestinian. So, the problem is, so there's two different things.
If you live in Israel, you're a citizen. And so, they

Speaker 4 can live there and work, but there's sort of some petty grievances that people might have. But if you're a Christian in Palestine, which is where most of the

Speaker 4 activities of the life of Christ are, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, the Mount of Olives, Jericho, Jacob's Well, that's all within Palestine.

Speaker 4 And so there's many, that's the predominance of the Christian population there. And they're treated

Speaker 4 with the effects of the occupation, which means you have checkpoints around you.

Speaker 4 You can't, you're not, a Christian who lives in Bethlehem cannot go to Jerusalem, to the Holy Sepulchre, without a permit. by Israel, and they don't usually give those permits, especially now.

Speaker 2 A Christian can't.

Speaker 4 No, without permission from israel

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 that's interesting because i mean those those christians that you're describing i mean they are the descendants of of the

Speaker 4 absolutely yeah

Speaker 4 they've been there from the beginning yeah i mean right christ came as a jew right yes went to the temple but the people that converted and have lived there for centuries are in fact i think there's been studies done that uh if you the on palestinians living there now and they are the canaanite descendants yeah they're people that have been there there for centuries.

Speaker 4 Or the greater part, not just Palestine included Syria and Lebanon at a different time under different empires and things. So, yeah, they're the first Christians, the Christians at the time of Christ.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 they can, it's very difficult to practice their faith. It's sort of like you're in a gilded cage.
In the best, that's how I look at Bethlehem.

Speaker 4 Within Bethlehem, you can live there, but you can't go and visit your friend who lives near Jacob's well in Nablus without taking it.

Speaker 4 In fact, the priest in Bethlehem just told me the other day, his wife is from near Jenin, which normally would take you about an hour and a half to get between the two.

Speaker 4 Her father has prostrate cancer. In order to get treatment, there was only hospitals, nothing in the Northwest Bank could deal with it, either in Jerusalem or in Hebron, which is south of Bethlehem.

Speaker 4 And last year, or a couple of years ago, he was able to go to Jerusalem with a permit to get the treatment. But this year, the Israelis wouldn't let him.

Speaker 4 So it took him him over five hours to get down to hebron and a man who's old and sick to doing things so whether it's for those kind of activities or practicing your faith or visiting your relatives or which is part of christian life too right you want to celebrate the holidays with with your family and friends it becomes very difficult to do

Speaker 2 the the reason i'm asking these questions well first i i think it's worth worrying about Christians who are the minority population. Well, it's worth worrying about Christians in general.

Speaker 2 But the United States is a majority Christian country that pays for a huge percentage of the Israeli economy, both through trade and direct grants and military assistance and all the rest.

Speaker 2 Israel couldn't exist without the United States.

Speaker 2 And it has the support of so many Christians in the United States. And I don't know if they're fully aware.

Speaker 2 I want to think they would care if they knew how the Christians are doing. And I keep reading that the Christian population in the region has declined dramatically since Israel became a state in 1948.

Speaker 2 And I'm not quite sure why.

Speaker 4 Well, again, I think it has to do because the whole issue is that Israel has continued to grow and think that they can dominate the Christian areas, the areas of Palestine.

Speaker 4 So they make it very difficult for anyone else to be able to live there. As simple as that.

Speaker 2 But you would think Christians would get a special pass or dispensation because

Speaker 2 the United States is the great patron and it's a Christian country.

Speaker 4 No, because, well, the problem you have is one with the Christian Zionists, the ones who don't recognize the Christians in the Holy Land as being fully Christian, apparently, because why would a cruise, I have a very hard time understanding why someone who

Speaker 4 calls themselves a Christian and then gives money to support the building of settlements. Do we understand what that means? The settlements are in the areas of Palestine.

Speaker 4 They're taking over the land that belongs to the people of Palestine. And this has been going, like I said, I've been there since 1996 and I've seen the continued growth of the settlement.

Speaker 4 I lived in Bethany, biblical Bethany.

Speaker 4 And over the mountain, Mount of Olives was the convent I was in in Jerusalem. And to the east of me was the settlement of Mali Aramim in 1998.
It was a relatively small settlement then.

Speaker 4 And then you go down the road to Jericho. It was one lane.
It's now a larger highway. And that settlement of Mali Alameim is like a huge city and has closed off the people of Bethany.

Speaker 4 We are closed off in Bethany from going to our convent in Jerusalem because of the wall that was built on Palestinian land, on Christian land, to there's a there's a Christian home for boys that the Israelis just took over and cut up to make part of the wall that separate.

Speaker 4 So they weren't, it wasn't done for security to build that wall. It was done simply to expand the borders of Israel.

Speaker 2 Wait, so they went right through Christian land. Did Christians in the West say anything about this?

Speaker 4 Very few. I mean,

Speaker 4 there was, and also on that stretch at the lower end of the Mount of Olives, there was a nursing home run by a Catholic church. And

Speaker 4 the

Speaker 4 nun that was in charge, she spoke to the French press. And soon after she was told she was sent to Lebanon or to another post.
It wasn't allowed to be there.

Speaker 4 Me at the same time, we had, the wall was built right beyond Lazarus's tomb.

Speaker 4 Our school is walking distance from Lazarus's tomb, from where Martha and Mary lived, and they built the wall right above where the tomb is.

Speaker 4 So that separated some of our teachers from being able to come to school. It separated our families on either side of the wall.

Speaker 4 So in April of 2005, I went to Washington and spoke to some congresspeople, not to demean Jews or not to even demean the state of Israel, to say, look, we are being affected by this wall.

Speaker 4 It's affecting our religious life. I can't bring my, I can't go to visit my convent easily anymore because of this wall.
It's disrupting our school life. And we'd like to see, it's not for security.

Speaker 4 It's not separating Israel from

Speaker 4 Palestine. It's separating Palestine from Palestine in the two.
I get back home.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, what kind of reception did you, so you went to Congress? Yeah.

Speaker 4 And there are a handful. Actually, I remember a very sweet occurrence.

Speaker 4 He's died since, but Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, I was scheduled to meet him and he wasn't there, but then he came and he literally ran down down the hall to catch me.

Speaker 4 So there were a few, there were a few people that were sympathetic. But overall, no.

Speaker 4 And I even felt a sense when I was talking to people that

Speaker 4 I went to a meeting where there were a few aides there of different congresspeople, right? Not just in one office, and just felt as if there was someone there watching

Speaker 4 what it was saying or doing going on. So anyway, so I give back.

Speaker 2 Did you meet with any Christian church leaders here in the U.S.?

Speaker 4 Unfortunately, I mean, the Catholic Church has done a lot and said a lot, but

Speaker 4 sad to say, I feel the Orthodox Church in America has been very reluctant to speak out on this issue. Why? Or to get involved.
Maybe sometimes we, I think it's partly just simply awareness.

Speaker 4 Even when people go on pilgrimages to the Holy Land, they probably have Israeli tour guides and they don't, you know, it's an amazing experience to go to the Holy Land.

Speaker 4 It's overwhelming to be, you know, a pious person to go there and you're thinking about going to see where Jesus was. And here I'm on the Sea of Galilee.

Speaker 4 And you don't really perceive what that wall means, or who are those people living over there? Or how come there's only cars with yellow plates here?

Speaker 4 And then we were in Jericho and I saw these green and white plates. What does that mean going on? They don't understand it, so they don't get the concept.

Speaker 2 What does it for two weeks? What does the license plate mean?

Speaker 4 Yellow plate is for people who live in the state of Israel and they can go on certain roads,

Speaker 4 all roads, and for Palestinians who have a Jerusalem ID are allowed to have a car with a yellow plate. And then Palestinians have green and white plates and they cannot use.

Speaker 4 So over that time that I've been here, as the settlements have grown, you build the infrastructure for it.

Speaker 4 The electricity, the roads, separate roads that are used only by people that have yellow plates. As a foreigner and part of a foreign church,

Speaker 4 we were entitled to have either those or they also have white diplomatic plates, the kind of diplomatic and religious plates that are there. So there's very much an apartheid system.

Speaker 4 Very much so.

Speaker 4 Which gave me the freedom to help my Christians, friends in Bethlehem and other places.

Speaker 4 Like one time there was a woman who her daughter, they were from Bethlehem, married a Christian who lived in Jerusalem. So he had rights to be in the city of Jerusalem, have blue ID.

Speaker 4 But the mother, when the daughter gave birth to their first child,

Speaker 4 She didn't have any way to go to see her daughter because it would be illegal for her to go into Jerusalem to get there. So I had the school van and I

Speaker 4 went to Bethlehem, go get her. And a lot of times we'd have a little more leeway.

Speaker 4 You know, if I get go through a checkpoint, they'll see it's a nun and I'd go pass through a lot easier than someone else would.

Speaker 4 So I was able to get her through to be able to go see her daughter at the birth of her granddaughter.

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Speaker 2 I'll just be totally blunt with you.

Speaker 2 Most Americans are aware that there's a system something like what you just described.

Speaker 2 But the pretext for it, the justification for it is that there's a lot of Islamic terrorism. There are a couple of intifadas.
There were a lot of suicide bombings.

Speaker 2 And it's Islamic terror. And most Americans have been taught for 25 years that Islamic terror is this, is a threat.
And, you know, there's some truth in that, of course.

Speaker 2 But so we assume

Speaker 2 that Christians would be getting an exemption from all this. Why would Christians who are not responsible for Christian terror, there's no such thing, why would they be penalized for this?

Speaker 2 Why wouldn't they, again, when the patron saint state is majority Christian, why wouldn't the Christians there be getting some kind of special pass? I just don't understand that.

Speaker 2 Why punish the Christians for Islamic terror?

Speaker 4 Because I don't think it's Islamic terror that's taking place in the first place.

Speaker 4 I think we have to disabuse ourselves of that notion that this is a battle between Muslim and Jew, or that, you know, constantly you heard after October, the October event was that Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.

Speaker 4 Even to this day, we hear it's Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.

Speaker 4 What is Hamas?

Speaker 4 Hamas are people

Speaker 4 who have had their homes taken from them, who, if they live in Gaza, have not been able, basically been in an open-air prison for certainly the last 20 years going on.

Speaker 4 Even when the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, they didn't leave open borders. There was no freedom for people in Gaza to develop their economy.

Speaker 4 I know people who wanted to try to go to school in America and couldn't get out of Gaza, you know, had a Fulbright scholarship and weren't able to leave.

Speaker 2 You mean couldn't get out.

Speaker 4 Israel didn't give her permission. So what kind of freedom is that? If you live in Gaza.

Speaker 2 They couldn't even fly out. No.

Speaker 4 And their airport had been bombed in, what, 2000 and early on?

Speaker 4 There was an airport built soon after the Oslo Accords. But Israel has intervened many times in Gaza and

Speaker 4 little by little destroyed.

Speaker 4 You know, when I first went there in 2002, after the second infadah started, I remember saying to my mother back home, you know, this is genocide, even that genocide by Chinese water torture.

Speaker 4 But now we're seeing genocide on steroids.

Speaker 2 You're American, I should say.

Speaker 4 Yes, I'm born in America. Yeah, lived in America.
And so getting back to Hamas, so also the school I was at has 350 girls.

Speaker 4 It's in a town that's 98% Muslim, Though it has roots, I mean, it's the roots of where Bethany, on our school grounds is a stone from the sixth century.

Speaker 4 This is where Christ met Martha at the resurrection.

Speaker 4 You know, so we're talking about, and it's the road leading, there's still part of the road that existed when Christ walked during that time and would have seen Lazarus and Martha and Mary.

Speaker 4 Lazarus's tomb is down the road, right? But it's, and so permeated even with Palestinian Muslim culture is the sense that Christians lived here and they recognized Jesus as a prophet.

Speaker 4 So they respect him as, and so there's,

Speaker 4 I'm not saying that everything is perfect. You can't have divisions between, just like even with Christians.
You know, some Christians might think we should have

Speaker 4 allow politics to be in the church or legislate Christian morality. And others would think totally different.

Speaker 4 So you can have sort of differences of opinion, if you will, and we can all live with each other between that. So with Muslim and Christian, they can have their differences.

Speaker 4 But overall, the Palestinian culture is infused with both.

Speaker 2 There. So you were a nun in a majority Muslim town, a Christian nun

Speaker 2 in your habit, I assume.

Speaker 4 And which also was to an advantage because

Speaker 4 pious Muslims are not jihadists, the ones that I know. I'm not saying other parts of the world, that may be the case, but in Palestine, it's simply not the case, or Syria, or Lebanon, or Iraq.

Speaker 4 The Muslims, for the most part, are,

Speaker 4 they've all grown up together, the Christians and the Muslims. And

Speaker 4 there's a certain amount of commonality and respect. And so me wearing being dressed like this was just like many of the women there, right? So they kind of respected that.

Speaker 4 There's the same sort of conservative culture. There's the same sort of idea that we're both have some same basic values.

Speaker 4 of compassion for our neighbor, of doing, of taking care of our families, and trying to live up. They have their form of fasting and almsgiving, and it's actually actually very important to them.

Speaker 4 And I think the best parts of Islam come from its development from Christian ideas that Muhammad came to know. I'm sure of that.

Speaker 4 You can sense it.

Speaker 2 This is a very different story from the one that we're told in the American media, that Christians are imperiled by Muslims in the Middle East.

Speaker 4 They are not imperiled by

Speaker 4 Muslims in Palestine. That is an absolute fact.
And if,

Speaker 4 yeah, that's just simply not the case. And again, going back to my school, in our school, we had icons, which are part of the Orthodox tradition, pictures of saints, and crosses in every classroom.

Speaker 4 No problem with that. I could show you a photograph, I can't now, but of the graduates of the latest high school graduation.
And, you know, they're embracing the nuns there.

Speaker 4 They're dressed actually in a more secular way.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 yeah, it all.

Speaker 2 So a lot of your students were Muslim?

Speaker 4 All, yeah, 98%. The only Christian.

Speaker 2 A lot of your students were Muslim. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 And about half the teacher, and about half the teachers during the time I was there,

Speaker 4 some muslim some christian in a christian school yes and actually that's all throughout palestine the orthodox is is a relatively small we we do have schools in in many of the palestinian towns but also catholic schools lutheran schools and most of the population most of the students are muslims huh and and the beautiful thing about where the great danger is if the christians continue to diminish uh a key part of palestinian society and within israel as well you go to nazareth you'll see many Catholic-run hospitals, schools.

Speaker 4 And so it's a fabric. It's a part of the whole character.

Speaker 2 But I'm just still confused by the idea that the Christian population is declining under Israeli rule. You would think just the opposite.

Speaker 4 What gives them a

Speaker 4 what I observed from my time in Israel and going back every year is that they do not want any Palestinians there. So the majority of Palestine of Christians in Israel and Palestine are Palestinian.

Speaker 4 So they have to leave too.

Speaker 4 What grieves me is that

Speaker 4 the Holocaust is a horrible, horrible thing that happened. People

Speaker 4 slaughtered fairly quickly. Sometimes the thought comes to me when I've driven between, I'm going to drive, there's a tunnel road that goes from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

Speaker 4 And it's only for the settlers to go on down to the continued settlements that lead down further south in Israel to Hebron, or actually, I shouldn't say Israel, into Palestine, other Palestinian territory.

Speaker 4 As you're going, that tunnel road has been carved out of land that belongs to people in Bethlehem and Bejalah, which you're passing by on that tunnel road. So it's like a living death.

Speaker 4 How would you like to be a man? That was your grandfather's olive trees, but now it's...

Speaker 4 controlled by Israel and you're not even allowed to drive on that road. And on that very same road, I remember another poignant picture.
There was a woman that worked at our convent,

Speaker 4 a nurse and took care of the nuns. And she had a home, a very typical stone

Speaker 4 Arab home, beautiful home with grapevines. I remember going to pick the grapes at the house.
That is now part of Israel. They just confiscated the land.
She fought it.

Speaker 4 She fought as long as she could to try to keep her property. And I remember passing by there some years, and there's slowly, slowly, new Israel homes are being built that look very different.

Speaker 4 And she's, there's her something that looks out of, as if it, you know, belongs to biblical Palestine. And so what I was getting at is that these people, they're dying as they're living.

Speaker 4 It's like, and I remember sitting at the home of one of those people in Bedjala, and they had lived in the center of town. It was his father's home.
And then he built a new one near the

Speaker 4 Talitha Kumi Lutheran School. And I literally was sitting with them one afternoon, and he gets a call from his brother.
The Israelis are here.

Speaker 4 They're pulling up our olive trees, cutting them down on some of their land. And he ran over.
He got collected as many of the trees as he could. Military order.
That's what it was.

Speaker 4 They just go and do it, even though it's not their land. And then military order, nothing you can do.
They have jeeps and weapons. You're not going to stop them.

Speaker 4 But he was able to take some of those trees. This shows the resiliency.
And the word is samud. It's like

Speaker 4 it's a quiet persistence. This is our land and we're going to stay here.
And this man is a doctor who studied in Hungary.

Speaker 4 He took those olive trees and they now are in a plot of land next to his new house and trying to grow. So it's like, this is,

Speaker 4 I'm not sure what Israel is trying to do. I mean, it's horrific what's going on in Gaza.
And what is very

Speaker 4 concerning to me and why I'm grateful to be on your show is that what is going to happen,

Speaker 4 the people that I know in the West Bank, christian and muslim

Speaker 4 it's it's it's not said but it's like we're next

Speaker 4 that what they've done to gaza is going to come to us because who's going to stop them

Speaker 4 already in the northern parts where the refugee the unra the refugee camps were i was there in september they had already been um making raids I was in the center of Jenin, right in front of the Catholic Church.

Speaker 4 They had bulldozed the middle of the road and broken the water pipes. No bullet holes.
I lived in 2002 during the Antifada in Bethlehem. The whole city was full of bullet holes.

Speaker 4 So there hadn't been any confrontations, but they were still bulldozing and doing what they wanted to do to wreck the infrastructure, to make it harder for people to go to work up there. But now,

Speaker 4 in the last eight months, they've cleared out

Speaker 4 at least 15,000 people in Tulkarim and Jenin in the northern part.

Speaker 4 They're not in their homes. Do you hear those stories?

Speaker 4 And these affect Christians as well.

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Speaker 2 We definitely plus are good looking, I will say. Do American Christian churches send money to a government that does this to Christians?

Speaker 4 Well, I think

Speaker 4 the ones that send money that support the settlements are obviously the Christian Zionists. There's an organization called Christians United for Israel.
Pastor John Hagee.

Speaker 4 I was in Washington a few weeks ago because, well, they had a conference in Baltimore.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 4 it's slowly growing, an awareness by other Christians in America that just like many Jews are protesting and saying not in our name and Jewish, you know, the Jewish voice for peace, there has to be much more done by the Christians in America because these Christian Zionists are speaking in our name.

Speaker 4 Someone like Ted Cruz, Senator Cruz, is staying and doing what he's doing because he's following a Christianity that is not. the Christianity of the Holy Land.

Speaker 4 It's not the Christianity of a Catholic or an Orthodox or a traditional Christian.

Speaker 4 It's a heretical belief.

Speaker 2 What is Christian Zionism?

Speaker 4 As far as I understand it, they believe in the idea of the rapture. They believe that

Speaker 4 it's sort of this cruel bargain they have going with Israel. Because basically what they say, that they're going to be swooped up into heaven, right?

Speaker 4 And then there's going to be a thousand year kingdom. And then there'll be the end of the world and the judgment by Christ and he'll come back.

Speaker 4 This is a false, it was, it was condemned as a heresy in 381 because basically there is no thousand-year millennium to come, no thousand-year period.

Speaker 4 The end will, we are in that time period now,

Speaker 4 and so it's a false belief there. And the

Speaker 2 so basically they're arguing is that Jesus coming the first time wasn't enough,

Speaker 4 yeah. And it's, it's like, in a way, it's denying the Messiah

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 as an Orthodox Christian, the most important thing in my life is that we receive the body and blood of Christ, and we prepare ourselves to receive that body because Christ came as God and as man.

Speaker 4 And if you read John, it's actually 666, first he says, take, eat, this is my body, and drink, this is my blood.

Speaker 4 And many people heard the saying and found it to be a hard saying and turned away from him.

Speaker 4 So everybody was Jewish then, right? But some believed and some didn't. And some continued to follow only the law.
And some said, and Christ superseded the law.

Speaker 4 He said, there's something more than that law. I am the law.
I fulfill the law and the prophets. We believe in the Feast of the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor.
It takes place near Nazareth.

Speaker 4 I've been there many times. And in our icons, in our images, you see Moses and you see Elijah aside Jesus because the law and the prophets have been fulfilled.
in Jesus Christ.

Speaker 4 He came and said, I'm the church, I'm your salvation. And, you know, what I think often about is where I lived in the Mount of Olives, St.

Speaker 4 Mary Magdalene Convent, right above it is a Catholic monastery called Dominus Flavid. Christ wept.
It's where Christ wept.

Speaker 4 And I think of it often now because to some degree with Muslims to a lesser degree, because they retain some of the Christian sensibility.

Speaker 4 But he's weeping over the people that didn't see him, that didn't understand who he was. And the problem, okay, so they follow only the law.

Speaker 4 And I think that's why you see these are people that can somehow justify allowing for the starvation and ethnic cleansing of so many people.

Speaker 4 Because if think of the stories from the Gospels where Christ heals the man with the withered hand, and he's looking behind him, are the Pharisees, and he's grieved at their hardness of heart because he was

Speaker 4 healing, doing a work on the Sabbath day, and that was against the law. And so

Speaker 4 now

Speaker 4 these Christians of wrong belief believe that they need to rebuild the temple as part of their plan.

Speaker 4 So they believe that the current state of Israel, which has nothing to do with the biblical Israel, is needed to be built up so that then somehow they can restore and build that temple, fulfill an obligation of the law.

Speaker 4 And the price of that, they're willing to forego the compassion that Christ talked about and allow people to be starved and wiped out.

Speaker 4 And Christians in America have to understand that you're allowing both people who support the state of Israel, who are Jewish,

Speaker 4 and those Christians who think they're doing something in the name of Christ when it's far from the name of Christ, and it's actually causing the end of the Christian population in the Holy Land.

Speaker 4 It's going to be, the numbers have dwindled. Now we're getting to the small thousands.
I just received a call the other day.

Speaker 4 Jacob's well is in the large city of Nablus, in the center of the West Bank, which has been grievously.

Speaker 4 Raids take place all the time, and it's very difficult.

Speaker 4 But what happened the other day was that a Christian-run factory, in Nablus, there's about 600 families, around 600 Christians, a number of churches, and Jacob's Well, which is a very important site to us.

Speaker 4 We always go there on a pilgrimage when we can. And their factory,

Speaker 4 no warning, no permit. First, on June 26th, I believe, the Israeli army came in and confiscated some of the factory equipment.
And then

Speaker 4 two weeks later, they came and blew up a big portion of the factory.

Speaker 4 So how are people supposed to have?

Speaker 4 They gave no reason. There was no permit.

Speaker 4 They have lawyers. There has been, as far as I know to this date, no.
court order, no reason. And the only thing, I mean, quickly what popped into my head, because it is a metal-making factory.

Speaker 4 Okay, they must be using it to make weapons, right? These are Christians who have been there for decades, the centuries, I think, even the family. And it's a well-known business.
All right. And

Speaker 4 no order was given. And quite, I almost feel a little worry about saying anything because I don't know what the repercussions will be with that family because they have no recourse.
Who do they go to?

Speaker 2 Where's Ted Cruz in all this? Ted Cruz talks about how he's a Christian. Mike Johnson, who's the speaker of the house, talks about how he's a Christian.
They talk about it a lot, actually.

Speaker 4 I think they have to, we have to,

Speaker 4 I'm not sure that it can be done by,

Speaker 4 we have to battle APAC and the Christian Zionists by the Christians standing up, say, not in my name. We can't be doing this.

Speaker 4 So if they're getting money from these organizations, then Christians have to have enough concern to say, I don't want this happening in my name.

Speaker 2 No, and to my brothers in Christ.

Speaker 4 Right, exactly. And not only it's the real people, the living stones that are there that keep the churches open, that keep things going, but also for our Christian legacy.

Speaker 4 You know, we're supposedly a country based on a Judeo-Christian heritage, right?

Speaker 4 But so where is that Judeo-Christian heritage when you're destroying the very foundations of it? Saint Jerome translated the Bible in Bethlehem.

Speaker 4 The cells where he was at are under the Church of the Nativity. You know, the very roots of our Christian heritage are there.

Speaker 4 And we're letting it be destroyed. Not physically and physically by killing the people, but also there's a wonderful person.
When you talk about resistance, this all started with Hamas.

Speaker 4 So for the most part, I would say they're a resistance movement. They're simply people fighting for their people, trying to protect their land.

Speaker 4 And I don't know if we want to reach into the area of the whole problem is, is there was never defined what Palestine is. You know, the Oslo Accords took place, and then there was nothing to,

Speaker 4 there was area A, B, and C.

Speaker 4 And you didn't have a Palestine.

Speaker 4 So little by little, Israel just keeps taking over the land as it's confiscating, building the settlements, adding the checkpoints, and and making strangling the life of anybody living there um

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It's available now on tuckercarlson.com. It's excellent.

Speaker 2 The purchase of churches and schools to aid the operation, the jerry-rigging of power boxes to steal electricity, foreign pesticides, collusion with the Mexican cartels. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 By the way, one of the drug houses is like walking distance from my house. I didn't know that.
It's a layered and fascinating story. Head to tuckercarlson.com to watch now.
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Speaker 2 The state of Israel,

Speaker 2 you know, is less than 80 years old, but that area is thousands of years old, controls by various empires, as you've said.

Speaker 2 And then finally, the British up until 1948. During all that time, huge

Speaker 2 pieces of land were owned by various Christian churches, particularly in Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 What happened to that? Do they still own that land?

Speaker 4 They own the land, but this is where it's sort of the...

Speaker 4 a lesser kind of persecution is that they use legal means or semi-legal means because you have land that was under the Ottoman Empire and there might be some documents or certain leases and they say, well, the lease is up now.

Speaker 4 We have to renegotiate it. And suddenly the Christians have lost a portion of their land.
Or they'll use middlemen and say, and it's sort of acts of deceit. And they end up buying large,

Speaker 4 these front companies come and buy off some of the land and you don't realize that it's going.

Speaker 4 to not Christians or not to Palestinians and being used in another way.

Speaker 2 In Jerusalem?

Speaker 4 Yeah, primarily around Jerusalem, Jerusalem and Bethlehem. There's large chunks that have been taken.
The Knesset sits on the

Speaker 4 own land, land owned by the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

Speaker 2 What? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, it was their land. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And they have a lease. They have a lease for it.

Speaker 2 How did they get it?

Speaker 4 Well, obviously they allowed them to have that. That was a legal operation that was done.
Yeah. To have that.
That's land.

Speaker 2 When you first got there 30 years ago, were there more Christians than there are now?

Speaker 4 There were more. I mean, it still has been a relatively small population in the tens of thousands, I think, in Palestine overall.

Speaker 4 But it's certainly, I think the greater degree, and little by little, it's decreased,

Speaker 4 but it's really

Speaker 4 getting frightening now because I think these last two years has sort of like almost pushed people over the edge.

Speaker 4 But then you hear of families in communities like five or ten families that are leaving now, going to Europe, sometimes the U.S. or Canada or Australia.

Speaker 4 And that's not only Christians, of course.

Speaker 4 Muslims are a bigger population because there are people, if you're raising your child and there's no job opportunities for them, and quite frankly, there's a good likelihood that they, if you're a teenage boy, that you could get shot.

Speaker 4 I mean, I know a number of kids in...

Speaker 4 Al-Azariya where I was, 14, 15-year-olds who have been shot. And look at the difference in that.

Speaker 4 Supposedly throwing a Molotov cocktail. And And now think about when the war started with Ukraine and Russia.
I remember a story in the New York Times.

Speaker 4 It was a huge story celebrating that a beer factory was now generating Molotov cocktails to throw against the Russians. And that was celebrated.
In Palestine,

Speaker 4 hundreds of teenage boys have been killed because Israel will say they were throwing a Molotov cocktail. And I know of one case,

Speaker 4 he wasn't even, I think he was 12 years old last year. I know a beautiful man, a Dr.
Salim, who's Muslim, but who used to take care of the nuns at our convent.

Speaker 4 He lives in Shofat refugee camp, which is part of Jerusalem. They pay Jerusalem taxes, but a wall surrounds them.

Speaker 4 They're guarded by Israeli soldiers. He tries to run a disability center, but they're constantly being raided, people being detained by the

Speaker 4 Israelis. And

Speaker 4 the infrastructure there, you can tell when you're in Palestine, East Jerusalem versus the West. One has nice sidewalks, good schools, the other is decrepit.
Anyway, Dr. Salim,

Speaker 4 there was a boy at the camp there, 12 years old. It was a Muslim holiday, and

Speaker 4 he was shot dead. And what they said was he had thrown him all the top cottage.
He was 200 yards from any soldier. And they shot him dead.
But that literally happens every day.

Speaker 4 I have a young man that we just helped come to America a year and a half ago who lives north of Hebron, a Christian, and his family, he went to school a half hour north in Shepherd's Field.

Speaker 4 We wanted to bring him to America because he was at that age where you look the wrong way at a soldier and it's possibility of getting shot. He's Christian, but he could be Muslim.

Speaker 4 The point is that this is what happens to them. So any normal family,

Speaker 4 they want to stay in their land.

Speaker 4 It's difficult to immigrate. How are you going to be treated going to another country and have to pick up your livelihood and leave other family members?

Speaker 4 It's not an easy thing to do, but yeah, it is happening, that the population is declining, and the priests are very concerned.

Speaker 4 I've talked to a number of priests in the West Bank, and they're aware of the situation. So what we're hoping to do,

Speaker 4 there's sort of a latent movement of Christians that don't have this Christian Zionist perspective.

Speaker 4 And, you know, the Catholic Church has always done some to support the communities over there, but we haven't done anything politically because ultimately it's not the money that's needed now.

Speaker 4 It has to be the change that

Speaker 4 we have to change the support of Israel. If you allow the settlements to continue, if you continue, you know, James Carville, right?

Speaker 4 He was under Clinton and he came up with a phrase for the campaign, it's the economy stupid. The problem with Israel and Palestine is not Muslim versus Jew.
It's the occupation stupid.

Speaker 4 That's really what it comes down to.

Speaker 4 And unless we get something where a sovereign Palestinian state where they're granted their freedom is created, and maybe that'll be two states with a boundary, or maybe it'll be some sort of confederation.

Speaker 4 That's up to the politician to decide. But unless there's freedom and an ability for the Palestinians to develop and be free to have their country,

Speaker 4 Christians will continue to leave. And what will happen, not only those living stones will leave, but the holy sites.

Speaker 4 What gives me the greatest pleasure is after I left Jerusalem, I've lived in America, but two times a year I bring pilgrims, people who want to come and visit the holy sites, go and see where Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected, go see where he was born, go up to the Sea of Galilee, be a part of that.

Speaker 4 And one of our saints says, taking a pilgrimage to the Holy Land is like the fifth gospel.

Speaker 4 So we can read the Bible all we want, but it's when we go there and really are at the places where our Lord walked.

Speaker 4 and lived and performed his miracles that you really, it deepens your Christianity and your sense of the, if one of the loveliest things is I've taken people of all ages and I'll ask them younger people at the end of the trip, so what do you like the most?

Speaker 4 And some people might say the Dead Sea or something, but I've also been struck that 15-year-old boys will come back and tell me it's when we went to the Holy Sepulchre into the tomb of Christ.

Speaker 4 So there's obviously something there that's important to our Christian heritage. And what's happening is if the Christians are forced to leave, if Israel takes greater control,

Speaker 4 what we will have is museums. They won't be living places of prayer.
And that will be a great tragedy, not only for the Christians, but I think for the whole world.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because they're not owned by a government. I mean, these are pre-existing.

Speaker 2 But they've been there for centuries.

Speaker 4 And they have gone down and up. I mean, there have been times over the centuries where

Speaker 4 Christians have had difficult times and then rose up again and did. So

Speaker 4 I think actually we're in one of those dark times. I mean, we could go into a whole explanation of why the world wait is.
Why do we even allow?

Speaker 4 This is mind-boggling to me. It's getting painful.
I can't look at anything right now. And I think a lot of people, every day, these stories of what is happening and people justifying it.

Speaker 4 To anyone with a conscience, it's sort of like, what are we doing? And how has this evil been allowed to grow and develop?

Speaker 2 Did you make any converts in Palestine ever? Did you mean of Muslims converting to Christianity?

Speaker 4 You have to be careful with it, but I will say that I don't know those Muslims that have converted to Christianity, but it's not something you can do openly.

Speaker 4 Not that they're going to be killed, but it's not, it won't be looked upon well, and it's not easy to do.

Speaker 2 Is it legal?

Speaker 4 To proselytize.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 We're in Palestine?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 You can talk to people. I guess it doesn't, you know, the interesting thing is I'm Orthodox.
And in Orthodoxy, we don't aren't really a proselytizing faith.

Speaker 4 It's a faith that becomes of what you are and how you live. You know what I mean? It says you don't actively do missionary work in a lot of cases.
Mostly it's just by your example.

Speaker 4 And that was the first Christians, right? And who were martyrs

Speaker 4 or their way of life because they weren't pagans, because

Speaker 4 they were trying to treat people decently and people responded to that.

Speaker 4 You were following the message of Christ. And that people say, oh, yeah, well, we really don't want to live like the Sybaritic life that we were living before.

Speaker 4 And that looked appealing appealing to people. So that is what the witness of Christianity is.

Speaker 4 And that's another reason why if it's gone, it'll only hasten the bloodshed and the destruction in the Middle East, because I think the Christians are a buffer between

Speaker 4 Muslim and Jew in

Speaker 4 Palestine. Yes,

Speaker 2 that makes sense. Absolutely.
Were you there? There was a siege at the Church of the Nice in Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus.

Speaker 2 Maybe 2002, I remember.

Speaker 4 Oh, yes, I was there. Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's where I became especially close to the Palestinian Christian community because in Bethany, there aren't that many Christians, but we had teachers from there and students from there, the boarding students.

Speaker 4 And when the siege happened, it wasn't just a siege on the church itself.

Speaker 4 What they claimed was that there were some fighters that were in the church, who, which actually that's a Christian tradition, you know. for people to take refuge in a church.

Speaker 4 But the Israelis used that as a way to, well, they besieged the church.

Speaker 4 But the whole town was under siege, not just the church. So that meant that the teachers who lived in the Bethlehem area couldn't get out of Bethlehem to come over to Bethany.

Speaker 4 People couldn't get food and medicines. After a while, it became,

Speaker 4 I would get calls and saying, you know, my neighbor has epilepsy and we cannot get a new medication for her. Can you find a way to get something in, you know, through a care organization into us?

Speaker 4 And finally, when the siege ended during that time, I remember a doctor telling me how, describing how someone had been shot

Speaker 4 in his house and he was bleeding to death. And he was calling the doctor, you know, what do I do? What can I do?

Speaker 4 And the doctor literally heard him just bleed to death during that because no ambulance, nothing was allowed. And after the 40 days,

Speaker 4 roughly 40 days, which is ironic,

Speaker 4 I went in there and I met up with some of the people.

Speaker 4 Everything was strewn with garbage all over the streets. The bullet holes.
You know, what Israel likes to do is destroy. Not only did they control the place, but they almost take glee.

Speaker 4 And we're not talking about Hamas time. We're not talking about, you know, 2023.
We're talking about 2002.

Speaker 4 They would go through the town of Bethlehem and purposely with their tanks, APC, the smaller ones, like knock over the light poles or the things that are garnished with Christmas trees, you know, decorations and things, and knock them over in the middle of town or pull their bulldozer and smash a car.

Speaker 4 But again, that same resiliency of the Palestinians, the Samud, I have a photograph.

Speaker 4 He's actually the father of one of the priests now in Bethlehem. And he's sitting on his car that had been smashed by the Israelis, just with a smile, kind of like, you're not going to stop us.

Speaker 4 We're going to carry on. You know, you did this to me, but I'm going to carry on.

Speaker 2 There were people shot inside the church in the details.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the bell ringer there was shot dead. Yeah.
And I know most of you there.

Speaker 2 Of course. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 So that was the moment. And Christians were shot outside the church.

Speaker 4 I don't know if it was exactly during those 40 days, but a young 16-year-old boy, who an altar boy of the church, you know, there were curfews going on and they had tanks all around the city circling them.

Speaker 4 And he was out with his 70-year-old cousin, I think it was, and they were just kicking a soccer ball. He was shot dead by a sniper, 16-year-old Johnny Talgia.

Speaker 4 You remember his name? Of course. And also there was another, Christine Sada.
Her father was the principal of the Orthodox school in Bet Sahur, Shepherd's Field. They were driving,

Speaker 4 and the Israeli soldiers who, that is Area A, right? If you want to talk about the politics of it, technically, that means it was under full Palestinian control.

Speaker 4 They should have their police and everything. No, Israeli Jeeps were there, and they mistakenly thought that was a car of some militant.
So they shot up the car.

Speaker 4 His wife was injured. He was injured as well.
And his 12-year-old daughter, Christine, was killed.

Speaker 2 Why? What did they do wrong?

Speaker 4 They thought the Israelis thought that was somebody that was going to do something bad.

Speaker 2 Was anyone ever punished for it? Of course not.

Speaker 4 Of course not. I had an incident in front of our school where they had put us on curfew and our girls, the bedroom of the border girls were on the main street.
And I look out.

Speaker 4 It was curfew time, but I saw, and there were soldiers sort of marching up and down the street, a handful of them, not like a brigade. And

Speaker 4 there was a man walking up to the soldier. And I thought, oh my goodness, it was a Palestinian man.
It turned out he was deaf mute. And he wasn't from Bethany.

Speaker 4 He was was from Hebron, but he had relatives there. He didn't understand what was going on because they call curfew anytime and then you got to get off the street.
So the soldier shot him in the eye.

Speaker 4 The man's a deaf mute and he ended up getting shot in the eye. He survived, but he was shot in the eye right outside our door.
And for all, for a couple of years, we had a tank in front of the school.

Speaker 4 And often I had to.

Speaker 2 Why was were the girls dangerous at the school?

Speaker 4 Well, the Palestinians are dangerous. All Palestinian.
Yeah, yeah, five-year-old girls are dangerous. But what was dangerous to us is

Speaker 4 Mount of Olives, this was before the, or while the process of the wall being built, there had been a situation where some settlers,

Speaker 4 probably followers of Ben Gavir, they had taken a little truck and they had explosives and they had gone in front of a high school on

Speaker 4 the top of the Mount of Olives. Fortunately, it was stopped before they blew it up.

Speaker 4 So every day I remember for at least six months, because they'd also done something similar near us, near the Mali Adam settlement.

Speaker 4 I would actually go, we had a fairly large property, and there's like gates on either side where the girls would come in.

Speaker 4 Every morning, I'd be up at six in the morning and go make sure that I didn't see like a little bomb someplace because that was what was going on.

Speaker 2 And I'll totally settlers, you worry the settlers would bomb the school?

Speaker 4 They attempted to.

Speaker 2 They attempted to. Wow.

Speaker 4 There were a couple occasions. Palestinians.

Speaker 2 But kids.

Speaker 4 Doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 It doesn't matter at all.

Speaker 2 I remember thinking in 2002 when the bell ringer was shot

Speaker 2 in

Speaker 2 the church on the site where Jesus was born. So it's kind of the center of Christianity, that the church of the Holy Sepulchre where he was buried.

Speaker 2 I remember thinking, like, are American Christians in the United States whose weapons, literally, they were using AR-15 platforms for this, American rifles, American ammunition, caterpillars?

Speaker 2 American bulldozers. Are they really going to put up with this?

Speaker 2 Was there any pushback from the United States?

Speaker 4 The problem is, is the lack of awareness.

Speaker 2 Our mass media. I worked at CNN at the time.

Speaker 2 And I interviewed Benjamin Netanyahu about this at the time. I'll never forget it.

Speaker 4 And what was his response?

Speaker 2 Terrorists. Like, we do what we have to do.
No apologies. But I said, but that's our church.

Speaker 2 And it's also

Speaker 2 nothing to do with this. So what are you doing? And it was like, shut up, anti-Semite.

Speaker 2 But I remember thinking, maybe, I mean, I'm just some like semi-agnostic semi-agnostic news douche from CNN, but like, where are the ministers on this?

Speaker 4 I think a lot of times they didn't want to get involved.

Speaker 4 It's the same fear that the mainstream media seems to have is that we don't want to rock the boat.

Speaker 4 And also, to be fair, because the mainstream media doesn't do its job fully, people are given a very distorted picture of events. So they don't know what's happened or going on.

Speaker 4 Or this is a kind of a minor example, but at that time period,

Speaker 4 my brother was coming up for a job at ABC News, and there was a story on the page six, New York Post. George's crazy,

Speaker 4 my name at that time was Maria, George's crazy sister Maria.

Speaker 4 And what they said, it was like the drudge reports, I know where it came from, that kind of thing, that I had said that Israeli soldiers were raping women in Bethlehem.

Speaker 4 Point of fact, someone had contacted me about that in an email from America and said, did you hear anything about anything going on like that? And I said, no. You know, we have a lot of difficulties.

Speaker 4 I do know where they've gone into doctors' clinics and they've like broken the sonogram machine and they

Speaker 4 put graffiti on it.

Speaker 4 Just went to the bathroom on there. Same kind of things that they're doing in Gaza.
They were doing it in the early 2000s, raiding people's homes for...

Speaker 4 to to have a vantage point and then steal the things in there and herd the family into one room. And so I said, but you know, I I said, well, let me check it out.

Speaker 4 I haven't heard any stories like that. And I contacted friends in Bethlehem.
I said, no, no. The Christian said, no, nothing like that has happened.
And I wrote back to that person and said that.

Speaker 4 But it didn't matter. They put it, that cuts what comes out on the news is what they want to come out on the news.

Speaker 2 So this was someone trying to keep your brother from getting a job at ABC News.

Speaker 4 Either to keep it or to keep him in line, right?

Speaker 4 You don't want to step out and say anything against Israel.

Speaker 2 Did you talk to your brother about it?

Speaker 4 It's a difficult conversation. And I think it's probably better better for him to say why.

Speaker 4 I think

Speaker 4 it's not his problem. I think it's a problem in all of mainstream media.
And it's certainly a great problem right now. I mean, you know, and even with this,

Speaker 4 we're dealing, now it's becoming a lot of publicity on the star, even though it is being distorted.

Speaker 4 I actually watched the news this morning and James Davridis is on and he's talking about it's all Hamas and they show the emaciated hostage and as if you know we would everything would be okay if only Hamas would release the hostage and and and that's the starvation.

Speaker 4 When

Speaker 4 it's taking place, millions of people are being starved. Babies are dying there.
And we're focused. God, I hope the hostage gets freed.
He should get freed. And he should get freed.

Speaker 4 And Israel should remove themselves from Gaza and allow the food to get in. And that's, and Christians should be pushing for that.

Speaker 4 And I think we are seeing that to some degree now, but it's still obscuring the main point. Like I said, the great,

Speaker 4 the unspoken thing when I talk to all my friends on the West Bank now is that they know we're next, that it's going to happen. And it will happen.

Speaker 4 Maybe we'll go back to that time where it'll be more like,

Speaker 4 they play a long game, you know, even with this settlement building. We'll build.
And then if America gives a little bit of pushback, okay, we stop for a while and then we start again.

Speaker 4 So maybe even in the West Bank for now,

Speaker 4 if there's hopefully will be some resolution with a ceasefire and bringing food into Gaza, that in the West Bank that they'll

Speaker 4 step back for a little while. But that doesn't mean that in another few months, there'll be some provocation.

Speaker 4 Like I said, they've already wiped out thousands of people from refugee camps in Tulkhartim and Jenin. They're making life very difficult.

Speaker 4 In many towns, in Taiba, in Bethlehem, water is not given to the city. So you don't have water unless you have your water tanks and there's no rain.

Speaker 4 You know, when I first moved to Jerusalem and you do your laundry, you hang it outside and I came there in May, there'd no rain until October, if you're lucky.

Speaker 4 So those water tanks aren't getting filled during the summertime. And so, and Israel controls the access to the water to the Palestinian towns.

Speaker 4 So if they decide they only get it once a week, you only get it once a week. While they have swimming pools in their settlements and green plush grass that Christian Zionists are paying for.

Speaker 2 Have you,

Speaker 2 you know, a lot of Christians in the Holy Land. How many support the government of Israel that you know?

Speaker 4 The Palestinians within Israel?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Christians support the government of Israel.

Speaker 4 I don't know that they would be any that really would.

Speaker 4 What's the point? Especially now. Any.
I mean, they're literally throwing out Palestinian representatives.

Speaker 2 So in the U.S., there's a sense that Christians support this program.

Speaker 4 Of course not. And to the credit, you know, when I first moved there in 98, there was hope for peace, and there was a much stronger peace movement within Israel.

Speaker 4 People who recognized not just a cold peace, but that we can live together and we should work towards that. But that's certainly been abolished.

Speaker 2 It's just so strange. I lived in D.C.
for all this, but like at the, you know, the final decade of the Cold War, there were a lot of Jews in the Soviet Union who were being persecuted.

Speaker 2 Well, everyone in the Soviet Union was being persecuted, including the Jews. And

Speaker 4 they came to Israel.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they came to Israel. They came to the United States.
And there were Jewish groups in the U.S.

Speaker 2 and in Israel that I supported then and I support now who said, we got to get our people out of there and help them. They're called refuseniks.
Right. Yep.
And my dad dad worked in this, actually.

Speaker 2 And I thought that was great. Sure.
You don't see that with any Christian group, with Christians in the Middle East. There's no Christian group in the United States that I'm aware of.

Speaker 2 It's like, hey, those are our people. Maybe we should help them.

Speaker 4 No, they are. In fact, there was just a conference down in Atlanta.
There's something called Churches for Middle East Peace. And there's a group like Telos Group.

Speaker 4 There's Christians for a Free Palestine, but they're very small and they're not so much part of the institute, you know, the hierarchy of the church.

Speaker 4 But to us, we had Pope Francis did speak out.

Speaker 4 And I think certainly the Catholic Church in America has to do a lot more as an institution. I mean, we should have a Christian APAC group.

Speaker 4 Of course,

Speaker 2 going on. Like, you're not allowed to shoot up the Church of the Nativity.
Sorry. I mean,

Speaker 2 even if you're agnostic on the politics of it or whatever, which is fine, maybe preferable. But you can't do that to Christians.
How about no?

Speaker 4 I agree 100%.

Speaker 4 So we have to move to that.

Speaker 4 But again, to be, it gets back to the thing, though, is that

Speaker 4 people don't always see the whole story. And we're just flooded with this message that those terrorists are coming to get us next, which is absurd.

Speaker 4 Has any member of Hamas or anybody of Palestinian come threatened America as an American?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 4 That's not what they're about.

Speaker 4 The thing is that, but that's the tactic that's used is that we have to plaster them as being these jihadists when they're nothing like that.

Speaker 2 Are they,

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm sure you've dealt with Hama or know people who are right. Are they religious fanatics? Are they jihadis?

Speaker 4 Not the people that I know. Like I said, when I was again in at the school, we had a couple teachers, Muslim men, and there were some elections going on.
And it wasn't Hamas then.

Speaker 4 It was the social party or something, but it was definitely a religion, Muslim-religious party. I would have voted for those guys.
Because they weren't corrupt. They wanted to serve their people.

Speaker 4 And that's what it was about. So

Speaker 4 I'm not saying it doesn't happen anywhere. I'm not totally ingrained in the community, but

Speaker 4 I don't, it doesn't, the vibe there isn't one of wanting everybody to convert to Islam and forcing it upon them at all, at all.

Speaker 4 And the purpose of Hamas is primarily to resist and to protect their people and their land.

Speaker 2 It's not just

Speaker 2 Palestine and Israel where the Christian population has shrunk. It seems like throughout the Levant.
Yes.

Speaker 4 And I think that's part of the whole greater Israel project. You know, isn't it so ironic that they've made such a big-targeting Christians? Targeting Christians, yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, targeting to make control for Israel, for example, in Syria.

Speaker 4 I went to Syria in 2004, and I went to the place, the convent of St. Thecla, where outside of Damascus in Malula, where the nuns were kidnapped by ISIS.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 And the population is over 10% Christian.

Speaker 4 And you have ancient christian sites as well as vibrant monastic communities there and vibrant churches and hospitals that were run by the church by in syria and lebanon right and now what have we done and so assad wasn't perfect saddam hussein wasn't perfect but the middle east is not the united states and we tried to impose ourselves there and get rid of these governments who

Speaker 4 for all the repression, also kept the people together, allowed minorities to survive there.

Speaker 2 Including Christians.

Speaker 4 Including Christians, yeah. And Christians, yeah.
And

Speaker 4 just recently, and so I find it mind-boggling that now we take sanctions off after Assad is gone and we put in place someone who was Daesh, who was part of ISIS.

Speaker 4 Does a leopard change its spots?

Speaker 2 And how are the Christians?

Speaker 4 Well, we had the bombing.

Speaker 4 We had actually very, if you may, I'd like to look for the statement from Patriarch John of Antioch, whose brother was a bishop and was kidnapped in 2010 and presumed to be be dead now.

Speaker 4 And in June,

Speaker 4 there was a bombing, a suicide bombing in the church in Damascus, Marilias. And Patriarch John, he didn't pull any punches.

Speaker 4 He came and he said to the, he gave a eulogy, but he also called out the government because they didn't really condemn the act at all, the ISIS government.

Speaker 4 And he says, Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Romans, for whether we live, we live to the Lord, and whether we die, we die to the Lord.

Speaker 4 The rock of our faith is the Lord who rose from the dead, and the martyrs who live who lie before us today are children of the resurrection. They dwell in the divine light.
They did not die.

Speaker 4 They are alive. They have passed on, even if in this horrific way, to the one whom they loved.

Speaker 4 He's living like we're supposed to live as Christians, is talking at it, the Christians there. But then he says, but I will say boldly, Mr.

Speaker 4 President, Abu Jalani, Ashara, the former head of HTS, head head of

Speaker 4 the ISIS group. We deeply regret, Mr.
President, that in the immediate aftermath of the crime, not a single government or state official was present at the scene, except for Mrs.

Speaker 4 Hind Kabawat, a Christian. We regret that deeply.
We are an integral component of this nation, and we are here to stay.

Speaker 4 Let me remind you, the two archbishops of Aleppo, Boulos, and Johanna were kidnapped, and much was said at the time. The Malula nuns were also kidnapped, and here we still are.

Speaker 4 This highness crime was committed the day before yesterday, and we will remain here. We appeal to you, Mr.

Speaker 4 President, for a government that does not get distracted by issuing unnecessary decisions unworthy of mention from the sacred royal door.

Speaker 4 We call for a government that takes responsibility and shares in the suffering of its people. Mr.
President, the people are hungry.

Speaker 4 If some have not told you, I am telling you, Honorable, come and take care of your people.

Speaker 4 I think that's pretty bold for a guy who had his brother kidnapped, just had a number of parishioners bombed, and he's telling someone who has been known to be a terrorist, calling him out.

Speaker 2 That's pretty bold. It's pretty bold.
I would say that's pretty bold. So the government of Syria now, the government run by the former ISIS leader, is pro-Israel.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, I think that's the whole plan.
And, you know, when you get to it, they talked about

Speaker 4 from the river to the sea, right?

Speaker 4 Where did that statement come from?

Speaker 4 Look at the charter of Lukud, the party of Netanyahu. They

Speaker 4 very clearly say from the Jordan to the Mediterranean is going to be Israel. And really from the Nile to the Euphrates, which means going into Iraq, into the edges of Egypt, and up to Salon.
So

Speaker 4 that's why we had the war in Iraq. Why did our young people have to die? Why did we have to spend so much money on a war? I was supposed to visit Iraq in early 2000s.

Speaker 4 Our school secretary, her father, was born in Mosul, and he was a Syrian Christian. And so this is an opportunity to go and visit him.

Speaker 4 And that's when they started chopping off the heads and doing things. So we thought better of making that part of the trip.
But

Speaker 4 how many Christians were displaced from Iraq during that time?

Speaker 2 Almost all of them.

Speaker 4 Almost all of them. And now in Syria, you're seeing the same thing, which in 2004, I saw vibrant communities.
I saw people who could live even under Assad as Christians. Now

Speaker 4 they're in fear for what's going to happen to them.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's hard to see this as an accident. So West Bank, Gaza, Iraq, some sort of plan.
Syria, Lebanon, all places where U.S.

Speaker 2 foreign policy chutshos at the behest of Israel see the destruction of Christian communities.

Speaker 2 I'm guessing that's like not an accident. No, not at all.

Speaker 4 It's definitely part of a plan. But the thing is, why should we be supporting that plan?

Speaker 4 And also, you know, we're focusing on the Christians, but I said we had girls who are Russian background who lived in the cities of Israel.

Speaker 4 And what you've seen the last 20 years, too, is that instead of that nascent peace movement, instead of people who tolerated their neighbor and could live with their neighbor, it's become a totally militant society.

Speaker 4 The girls I know that are there now, it's a lot of aggression and a lot of hatred. And how many Israelis have done? Are you having big problems in Greece now? I don't know if you've seen the demon.

Speaker 4 I'm a Greek, right? People are parading through the straits because Israelis have left Israel, even though they're the ones that have all the defense, right? All the protection.

Speaker 4 What kind of a country is Netanyahu trying to have? Do you really want to live in a militarized country that's always in fear?

Speaker 4 And always thinking that they're under attack when they don't have to be.

Speaker 2 You say it's more hostile. You see these videos of Christians, priests with crucifixes around their necks getting spit on in Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 Are those real?

Speaker 4 Yes. And I mean, that's happened before, you know, even from the first days that I was there.
There'd be occasionally something like that. And occasionally there were

Speaker 4 graffiti put on walls and sprayed on Jesus a monkey, 2013.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that was run.

Speaker 4 In Tabka, where the multiplication of the loaves and the fish, a Catholic community, graffiti there, talking about getting rid of the idols or something like that, some sort of Old Testament statement and burning, burning a statue of the Virgin Mary and parts of the monastery there.

Speaker 4 So, but

Speaker 4 that was a small segment. Like even at that time, Ben-Gavir and Smotrish were like sort of

Speaker 4 outcasts in Israel. They weren't the prominent members of Israeli society and what they represented in those religious zealots of it.
But now

Speaker 4 they are in power. And they're dominating everything.

Speaker 4 And, you know, they say sometimes that if the Israelis didn't have the Palestinians, there'd be a civil war between the secular and the religious Jews, which is true. That would happen.

Speaker 2 Oh, there's enormous tension.

Speaker 2 Enormous.

Speaker 2 Do you know anyone who's been spit on? Any Christians who've been spit on? Me? You've been spit on? Of course. Yeah.
What do you mean, of course? That's disgusting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, but that's the least of it.

Speaker 4 But that's the least of it.

Speaker 2 But again, I'm saying this as a perspective, from the perspective of someone who lives in a majority Christian country that's paying for all of this.

Speaker 2 So that's kind of the...

Speaker 4 That's the mentality. Or I'll tell you a story.
My father is a priest, right? A Greek Orthodox, which means, and he was wearing a choleric suit.

Speaker 4 He visited one time, and we villaged the town of, we visited the town of Taiba.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 there was a checkpoint before you entered into the town.

Speaker 2 Can you give us perspective where is Taiba?

Speaker 4 Taiba is biblical Ephrem.

Speaker 4 It's when Christ, after he raised Lazarus from the dead, he went about 10 miles to the northeast of Jerusalem, Bethany area, to prepare himself before he would come back to Jerusalem for his crucifixion.

Speaker 4 Ephrem is known as the town of

Speaker 4 compassion, of solace. Even in the time of Saladin, they came.
They actually, it was called Ephrem. It's now called Taiba, which means the good or the beautiful.
So it sort of had that reputation.

Speaker 4 So he went there to prepare himself for his crucifixion, 20 miles, not even 20 miles from Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 Interesting. So with your father, who was

Speaker 4 an American priest, dressed as a priest. And my mom was there too.
So we were going to drive it. So there's a checkpoint sort of at the entrance of the town.

Speaker 4 And then you have many olive groves, which, by the way, I was just talking to someone the other day.

Speaker 4 They have about 8,000 acres of land, let's say, and over a quarter of it has been confiscated either by settlers and the army allowing them to take their olive groves. And they have no recourse.

Speaker 4 There's nothing.

Speaker 2 Who owns the land?

Speaker 4 The Palestinian Christian families.

Speaker 2 And it's been confiscated from Christian families.

Speaker 4 Well, confiscate. What do you do when they have guns and you don't?

Speaker 2 I don't know. You call your patron church in the West and you say, raise a stink, call Ted Cruz.
Well, and other self-described Christians.

Speaker 4 Micah came, right? And then the only thing the...

Speaker 2 So what did Mike Huckabee be? The U.S. ambassador to Israel.

Speaker 4 He said he was very concerned because

Speaker 4 also it happened, which they didn't, there's three churches in Taiba, an Orthodox, Greek Catholic, and Catholic.

Speaker 4 And there's also the ruins of a fourth century church that still partially stands and people will still go there sometimes. Not full services, but just to be at the spot.

Speaker 4 It's a place that was built by St. Helen in the fourth century, Church of St.
George. Settlers burned the brush and also there's a cemetery right next to it, burned that area.

Speaker 2 Did they burn the cemetery?

Speaker 4 Everything's stone there, so nothing burns, but they burned the area around there. So you have grass and brush that was burned.

Speaker 4 And not only that, I was shocked when I saw how much they've infiltrated. It's one thing, the entrance of town and you've taken the open land, the olive groves.

Speaker 4 They have Bedouin, like in that town, there's a beer factory, a distillery, a hotel, and Bedouins are living, have been forced off their land around there and are now living

Speaker 4 with allowance of the Christians to be there because they have no place else to go and no one to protect them.

Speaker 4 So Ambassador Huckabee comes and he's very concerned because an attack on a church.

Speaker 4 And also that same week, a Palestinian American had been shot dead by settlers or beaten to death, Saif, Musalat, 20 miles, not even 20, a couple miles away.

Speaker 4 And he was going to address that as a Palestinian American to see that Israel would investigate. Nobody's been arrested or died.

Speaker 2 Is he an American citizen?

Speaker 4 Yes, he's from Florida.

Speaker 4 Often, just like I'm...

Speaker 2 An American citizen was beaten to death?

Speaker 4 By settlers.

Speaker 2 And no one was arrested?

Speaker 4 No, never happens.

Speaker 4 Down in Hebron, just there. And the concern, my concern in talking to you.

Speaker 2 And we're sure that happened?

Speaker 4 We're absolutely sure that happened.

Speaker 2 How can an American citizen be beaten to death in an Israeli-controlled area paid for by the United States, and nobody does anything about it?

Speaker 4 Well, this is our problem, isn't it?

Speaker 2 I'm sorry, I keep stepping on your story. So,

Speaker 2 Ambassador Huckabee shows up.

Speaker 4 He shows up and he says, you know, he's very concerned about what happened. And we're going to check it.

Speaker 4 The next day, settlers were there with cows marching through the town with their cows. So it shows that

Speaker 4 they are in control.

Speaker 4 And not only that, just a couple of days ago, this is a week after he's been there,

Speaker 4 you know, in the Bible, there's a story of Ruth. One of the women in Taiba is married to a, she's a Greek American, married.
They met in school in Boston. They got married.

Speaker 4 He was going to business school, her husband. He came back to Palestine to establish the business.
She goes with her husband, becomes Palestinian,

Speaker 4 going to care for the people of his nation.

Speaker 4 She got a PhD at Harvard. She's written books about the Holy Land.
And with

Speaker 4 the sales of those books, little by little, she visited parishes in America and she raised money so that they could build 30 homes for Orthodox people. So those homes

Speaker 4 were cars of the people in those homes were burned the other day. And there's graffiti again on the wall.
And it says, it names another village and it says, you're going to regret this.

Speaker 4 And the rest, I talked to two Israeli people who are from Israel and they couldn't even decipher the top part. So I, you know, because it's very interesting.

Speaker 4 A lot of the settlers are actually people from Brooklyn, New York.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 They have dual citizenship.

Speaker 4 And they go back and forth between it freely. They can go to Ben-Gurion Airport, go through Tel Aviv to come to the settlements in the West Bank.

Speaker 4 But those people in Taiba, who are actually American citizens as well,

Speaker 4 they can't go through Ben-Gurion Airport.

Speaker 2 How is it that an American citizen can't go through Ben-Gurion airport?

Speaker 4 Because he's also a Palestinian.

Speaker 2 Are you sure? I'm absolutely sure.

Speaker 4 Yes. They have to go through Jordan.
And right now,

Speaker 4 through a border that is controlled on one side by Israel. And right now it's so difficult.
They only open for, I've been told, from eight to one or two.

Speaker 4 And you've got thousands of people trying to come through, right? So you could be there for hours and you may not get through that day.

Speaker 4 People make plans to, you know, the only way Palestinians can do anything to be free is to go to another country.

Speaker 4 i mean even for a vacation or something you don't feel free in your own country i used to feel that when i was living there in the summertimes that's why i would travel to different countries because within israel and palestine you feel like you're in prison you can't feel like a person and so if you have the opportunity to go away to breathe a little bit you do that

Speaker 2 Since you are an American and you obviously know people and positions of authority, when you come back to the U.S. and tell these stories at dinner, what do people say?

Speaker 4 At dinner,

Speaker 4 they

Speaker 4 show concern when you tell the story. But again,

Speaker 4 maybe it seems too distant for people. Or I have also, you know what, since

Speaker 4 I've talked to people in our churches and I'm trying really now to focus on organizing because people say, how can we help? Now they're really seeing

Speaker 4 the gross things that are going on.

Speaker 4 Where do we send money? What do we do? Yes, people need money, but what we really need is political change.

Speaker 4 So I'm sort of bordering on three different congressional districts, and we've tried to set up appointments with our congressmen. They've thrown us off.

Speaker 4 I'm talking about middle-aged women trying to go see their congressmen.

Speaker 4 They don't want, when you tell them what you want to talk about, they don't want to make an appointment for you to be able to educate them.

Speaker 4 And then I wrote a letter to my congressman, Nicholas Langworthy. It writes back an Israeli bullet point, an AIPAC bullet point

Speaker 4 reply.

Speaker 4 basically saying, you know, Hamas is the problem and, you know, it's okay to send weapons over there. So,

Speaker 4 but little by little, we have to go and keep educating. If enough people keep knocking on the doors and saying, we don't like what we're doing, why are we sending billions of dollars to Israel?

Speaker 4 And then we're cutting Medicaid, we're cutting people don't have jobs in his district. In fact, I was listening in and he did a phone

Speaker 4 town meeting or whatever. And most of the people were concerned because they didn't have enough money for groceries or

Speaker 4 what was going to be done with their health care in the coming months and years. And then

Speaker 4 no questions about, he didn't take my question on the thing. I wanted to ask about Israel and why we were sending more offensive weapons.
We're not talking about don't play this game.

Speaker 4 Nothing wrong with the iron dome and protecting yourself. You're in a tough neighborhood.
I'm talking about assault rifles, which was just passed again to give assault rifles that

Speaker 4 Ben Gavir then just gives into the settlers who then kill. the Palestinians in the West Bank.
And we're financing that. So I say to the people, have you not had enough?

Speaker 4 You really want this done in your name. But the politicians make it hard too.
They don't want to hear it.

Speaker 4 And you have to, and I understand, when I lived there in the early 2000s, Congressman Darrellisa and Carolyn Maloney were still in office at the time. They were there on an Israeli junket.

Speaker 4 I think it was the 60th anniversary of something. But they were willing to come and see me.
But they wouldn't come to Bethany because that was over the wall. or the wall was being built then.

Speaker 4 That was in the West Bank.

Speaker 4 So we met on the Mount of Olives and they act they came with me and they saw the wall was being constructed then and they saw how people were passing through the rocks and they had not good things to say about israel but do you think their vote would have changed

Speaker 2 no not going to happen not going to happen

Speaker 2 i once again threw you off track when you were explaining um visiting with your parents

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 So we come into, we're heading into Taiba and the soldiers, because the reason the soldiers are there, because just outside of Taiba, on one side, you have the settlement settlement of Rimonim, swimming pools and beautiful homes, and the other direction, the huge settlement of Ofra.

Speaker 4 So these are in the West Bank, in areas that's supposed to be Palestinian.

Speaker 4 And so the soldiers there are supposedly protecting them, but they block the entrance to Taiba or check who's going in and out.

Speaker 4 you're going so we drove we they first weren't going to let us go they said no no no you can't come through this way you got to go around ofra go like 20 miles and come back another road to get into taiba i said no no they're only in the the country for a couple of weeks.

Speaker 4 They're only here for a few hours. We're going in this way.
Finally, they let us in. And then when we go, and we said, we're only going to be a couple hours.

Speaker 4 We're visiting families there and we'll come back out. When we come back out, the same game.
The soldiers just standing there. They play this game where

Speaker 4 to show that they're in control. There was no other cars behind us.
They just said, no, they wouldn't let us pass. They're just going to wait for a while.

Speaker 4 And finally, my father, temperamental Greek, got out of the car and went up to the soldier and said, What is this? I'm an American citizen.

Speaker 4 We would just want to go back to Jerusalem. And they basically just laughed in his face.
That's correct. Eventually, we were able to move.

Speaker 4 But the scorn they have for Americans is really something else.

Speaker 4 Well, that's not the only incident where I've seen something like that.

Speaker 4 They mock America.

Speaker 2 Mock America. America pays for the whole thing.
Well,

Speaker 4 thank you very much.

Speaker 2 But there's no love for America? Well, look,

Speaker 4 I have seen, sadly to say, during that time, American soldiers, veterans that would be at the checkpoints and they'd be sort of joking with the soldiers.

Speaker 4 So there was probably some camaraderie with certain people who were probably Christian Zionists or of that mentality. So they were pro-Israel.
If you have that view, then it's okay.

Speaker 4 But in general, no, they don't have any love for Americans.

Speaker 2 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, that was my perception.

Speaker 2 I think most Americans would be surprised to learn that. Yeah,

Speaker 4 it's about time that it changes.

Speaker 2 Why do you think there's scorn for Americans in a country supported by Israel? Who is supported by Americans?

Speaker 4 I think that's just a part of the arrogance of the country.

Speaker 4 They think they're due for everything.

Speaker 4 There's not much gratitude.

Speaker 4 We're past that time, you know, you know, because you're bringing up something now when I think about it, the time period when Joe Biden was a young politician and there was that warm feeling towards Israel and it was sort of the underdog.

Speaker 4 But we're way beyond that time now.

Speaker 4 You know, so that's where the sense of before, but it might have been a sense we're thankful to America.

Speaker 4 But over the years, as this whole progression of the, of the, the greater land of Israel and the dominance of another people and having the power to do it, there's no more of that gratitude.

Speaker 2 Have you been attacked for saying things like this?

Speaker 4 In which way?

Speaker 2 In the United States.

Speaker 4 Well, like that little slander then. I mean, I'm sure I, well, we'll see what happens after this, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 I actually come to think of it, you know, we talked before about in the early 2000s, my father was a priest at a large church in New York City.

Speaker 4 And he, he, there was a gathering of a few hundred people, and I talked about the situation in Palestine, and everybody was receptive. But then there was a

Speaker 4 newspaper that I believe was controlled by John Katsumtides, who's a big fellow in New York City.

Speaker 4 They reported what I said, but they also

Speaker 4 watered it down a lot. There's like this idea, we don't want to go too far and say anything negative about Israel.
And that was back then. That's

Speaker 4 15 years ago, 20 years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So it's not being attacked necessarily, but it's not letting you be truthful about things.

Speaker 2 Do you think Christians in other Arab countries are treated better than Christians in Israel and Palestine?

Speaker 4 Well, I can only go from my times of being there. In Lebanon, too, at the time I was there, there were churches and they were part of the society.
So there was nothing wrong with being a Christian.

Speaker 4 And in Syria, when I was now, now, who knows what's going to happen, but certainly the time when I was there.

Speaker 2 Well, Israel controls those countries now.

Speaker 4 Well, they're trying to make inroads. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, what do they do first? They bombed after Assad went down. They get rid of all the military.

Speaker 4 So what is the point of Abu Jalani being there now? the ISIS head, without,

Speaker 4 who is he serving? Is he serving the Syrian people or the Israeli people?

Speaker 2 What's the answer?

Speaker 4 Right now, it looks like he's serving Israel.

Speaker 2 What's so surprising is that you think of, or in the United States, people think of Israel as like this foothold of Western civilization in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 And so you would imagine the Christians would do a lot better under Israeli control than they would under Assad's control.

Speaker 4 No, that's not the case at all. That's it.

Speaker 4 Definitely not the case at all.

Speaker 2 That's,

Speaker 4 I'd like to talk a little bit more about the Palestinians themselves,

Speaker 4 and their former resistance, because I think one of the reasons I was grateful to be able to come on is to really give a picture of them and the people as they are.

Speaker 4 And what one thing that's really struck me, I know Muslims, I know Bedouins, I know

Speaker 4 all during this time where they've really been suffering, what I really get since from them is their real belief in God and that their life is in God's hands. And there's such a humility and

Speaker 4 an obedience to their Creator and an understanding that this life is not the only one. And there's a real beauty to that that I think so much of the world is missing.

Speaker 4 And I think even in sort of there's a deeper sense to all that's even going on right now, right? We're in the heart of Jerusalem, in the heart of where Christ came. There was a reason for that.

Speaker 4 And now we have a situation where the people who were the closest to God are being destroyed.

Speaker 4 In a simple sense, you know, I live next to the Mount of Olives, and when you go down the Mount of Olives, it's where they said, Hosanna in the highest, here comes Christ.

Speaker 4 And often I've gone to parish churches in Palestine, and the whole community is they know all the service and they're singing it themselves.

Speaker 4 And it reminds me as those people that were on the Mount of Olives, greeting the Creator, greeting the Messiah who is coming for their salvation

Speaker 4 and honoring him. And that's what they're doing to this day.

Speaker 4 And what we're doing instead is destroying that.

Speaker 4 And what does that mean for the world? Don't we let that go? The last time I was there, I went through Amman, not through Tel Aviv. So I had to go through the border.
And then I spent a night.

Speaker 4 And in the early morning, I was being driven to the airport from Madaba, where there's a mosaic from the sixth century that shows you the places in the Holy Land, the map in Madaba. And

Speaker 4 Madaba is not a very big city. And as I'm going out of it, you very quickly, quickly, before you get to the airport, come to lands that are still being grazed by shepherds.

Speaker 4 And I started to weep because to me, that's so emblematic

Speaker 4 of what the Lord really wanted us to be like, in touch with the land, recognizing that our life depends on what we grow and what we produce and what we do. And those kind of people are the ones.

Speaker 4 who I hear from now who say they're suffering.

Speaker 4 They're literally going to be killed, but they have

Speaker 4 so much more courage and faith than you find in so much of America and in the West, which we've lost. And to me, it's sort of like this whole war is in a way, we're killing the Christ message.

Speaker 4 And that message,

Speaker 4 whatever your theology is, is one of compassion and tolerance and love.

Speaker 4 And the world is becoming smaller in that way. And I think people sense that, right?

Speaker 4 How we act to each other and to our neighbor.

Speaker 4 And the very fact that people, politicians and people can listen to doctors, listen to what's going on and still somehow have a blank face and think it's okay.

Speaker 4 How did we come to such a point of darkness?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, it does seem like part of the broader spiritual war. Yes, absolutely.
I think so. What happens to the 2 million people who live in Gaza?

Speaker 4 Well, I can't say that I'm a a Trump fan, but I, you know, he's a wheeler dealer. He wants to get that Nobel Peace Prize.

Speaker 4 He's got people with a lot of money in Saudi Arabia and Qatar that have his ear.

Speaker 4 We don't have to build a Riviera. Build it for the Palestinians.

Speaker 4 Go and rebuild the area

Speaker 4 and reconstruct for a Palestinian nation. Why is that such an outrageous idea?

Speaker 4 Why does Israel think that the people of Palestine have to be their enemy?

Speaker 4 They say, go to Jordan, go to Egypt. What's the difference another 20 kilometers in? That's really what we're talking about.
The difference between Amman and Tel Aviv is 20 miles at most

Speaker 4 to drive between the two. So what are the differences between the people that live in Palestine, that live in Jericho and Bethlehem, and someone who lives in Amman?

Speaker 4 And what's the difference between someone who lives in Gaza? So give them a defined border and have the people of other countries, the Arabs too, should support the rebuilding of Gaza and

Speaker 4 have Israel remove their military from there and let Gaza have their freedom to be able to develop. Those people, there are some of the most educated people in Gaza.

Speaker 4 I mean, how many of us have read, I hope, the stories of Mossab Abu Tocha or Refat, who was killed, the poet. Beautiful, graceful people.

Speaker 4 Bissan Adana, who's on every day on, maybe not everybody sees or not in the mainstream media, but these are beautiful young Palestinians who are still trying to live and have joy and see something beautiful in the midst of all their suffering.

Speaker 4 So there's no reason that the money can be there. And if Trump, he's not a politician, he's a businessman.

Speaker 2 Work it out.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 I don't know that that's going to happen, but our politicians certainly haven't done it.

Speaker 2 What's the current plan for those people? It's probably not to raise a trillion dollars and rebuild them a model.

Speaker 4 But I mean, so what is a plan?

Speaker 4 Are we in such a world where we can look on live TV that 2 million people are just slowly going to die now?

Speaker 4 Or are you going to transfer them?

Speaker 4 And why should they be transferred?

Speaker 4 Why should they have to leave their land that they've been in for centuries? And in Gaza, you know, Gaza is

Speaker 4 as much as the West Bank. Gaza, the St.
Porphyrius Church from the third century, was bombed. We also have in the Orthodox.

Speaker 2 How did a Christian church get bombed?

Speaker 4 because it's part of palace palestinians and all there i i've been there before and basically that it's the the holy family church and the baptist church they're all pretty much in the same area so you can't make a mistake and the christians through you don't think that was an accident

Speaker 4 no no nothing's an accident i mean occasionally a shell might go off but no and certainly the last time with the one where they pointed at the cross

Speaker 2 you don't miss that

Speaker 4 about the holy family church the cross didn't topple, but literally inches from it.

Speaker 4 And I have, you know, in Nablus at Jacob's well, there's a large church now, and there's crosses on the front face in circles.

Speaker 4 And the monk always points out to us when I go there, there's a tank shell that was pointed, that was aimed at that cross. You can still see it from an earlier confrontation in Nablus.

Speaker 4 So don't tell me these soldiers make mistakes. You could, the, the, the church in Gaza has, you know, it's it's pointed and the cross is there in the middle of it by itself.

Speaker 4 So it's hard to believe that it wasn't perfect.

Speaker 2 So what would you say? What would you say to Ted Cruz, the self-proclaimed Christian supporting tank shells fired at crosses? Like, what is that?

Speaker 4 Well, I would say, you know, again, it's to disabuse of the notion, it's those same Torque talking points that the congressman gave. Well, but Hamas is the problem.
And they're terrorists.

Speaker 4 Well, Hamas is not the problem.

Speaker 4 So don't use that as an excuse anymore and you we have to defend christian values american values and and dignity freedom for people isn't that what we're all about

Speaker 4 having their rights

Speaker 2 what um

Speaker 2 what happens on the temple mount

Speaker 4 what is the temple mount can you explain what that is well the temple mount is the area uh where the temple existed at the time of Christ.

Speaker 2 In Jerusalem.

Speaker 4 In Jerusalem, right?

Speaker 4 Directly,

Speaker 4 I lived in the convent of St. Mary Magdalene on the Mount of Olives.
Directly in front of me is the Dome of the Rock, and there's the old wall, the old, the walls of the old city.

Speaker 4 And within that is the area where the temple had been, existed, right?

Speaker 4 There was also a Byzantine church at one point in the fifth century because where the dome of the rock is is where Abraham sacrificed or was going to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Speaker 4 So it's holy to all monotheistic traditions.

Speaker 4 And so on the left side, if you're looking from the convent where it's at, is the Wailing Wall. That's a portion of the temple that still exists, a wall.
And so some,

Speaker 4 just like the Christian Zionists, the Jews want the temple rebuilt.

Speaker 4 So I know Christians who have been there who will take a sign and go, take the crescent off the dome and say, we'll put a cross on there.

Speaker 4 It's natural to all of them to do. So there is this movement to rebuild the temple.

Speaker 4 All the time I was there, I heard about that.

Speaker 4 And there were small movements of it.

Speaker 2 But there's a mosque where the temple was.

Speaker 4 Yeah, now it's Al-Aska Mosque. It's the third holiest site for Muslims in the world.
And a lot of confrontations you have is because

Speaker 4 Israel will control getting in and out, being able to go there.

Speaker 4 Or they'll say only men over 50 can go to the mosque. today.

Speaker 4 And there's a lot of confrontations there and people have been killed. So it is a mosque.
Yeah, there's a functioning al-Aska mosque is there.

Speaker 2 But so you can't build the temple with the mosque there. No.

Speaker 4 And they say that they have the plans for rebuilding the temple and everything.

Speaker 4 And people like Ben Gavir, the minister who's a religious zealot, have gone on the temple mount. And it's a provocation.

Speaker 4 The area is controlled

Speaker 4 religiously by Jordan. But there's

Speaker 4 an organization that's responsible for that area.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you hear people say we're going to rebuild the temple, the third temple, but there's a mosque there. So what's the plan for the mosque?

Speaker 4 Well, I guess it would be to blow it up.

Speaker 2 And then you just said that's the third holiest site in Islam.

Speaker 4 Of course. This would be a dark day for anybody.

Speaker 2 So then what would happen if you blew up the third holiest site?

Speaker 4 Well, you could probably answer that better than me. It certainly would ignite a great conflict in the world.

Speaker 2 I just want to say this out loud because people sort of blithely talk about it.

Speaker 4 Oh, what we're really coming to. And I think that's the problem.

Speaker 4 That's the problem with the Christian Zionists is that

Speaker 4 what is your end game here? Well, that's their belief tells them that's okay. We want to have this third world war because we're going to be taken away

Speaker 4 and we'll be okay and we'll come back later after all the fighting is done. That's sort of basically what their theology tells them.

Speaker 4 And in the meantime, all the Jews are supposed to convert to their brand of Christianity or die in the conflagration.

Speaker 2 And so I'm asking you this because you're a nun. Right.
That's That's not a Christian.

Speaker 4 That's not a. It's not a Christian belief, no,

Speaker 4 or precept.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Any idea where that came from? That idea?

Speaker 4 The rapture?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, like I said, originally the idea of having the thousand-year kingdom is a heresy that was in the early church. But the real push of all that becomes from the 1830s.

Speaker 4 James Darby, Schofield, or John Darby, Schofield. So it's a new theology that has no basis in the foundations of Christianity.

Speaker 4 It has nothing to do with it.

Speaker 2 How do you think this story ends?

Speaker 4 It depends on us.

Speaker 4 And that's why, you know, maybe

Speaker 4 part of me wants to have that message of that we have to do something politically. The Christians have to wake up and tell their...

Speaker 4 Because it's all in the hands of the United States. It doesn't matter what any other country in the world does.
If the U.S. protects Israel, this will continue.

Speaker 4 And we will get to that conclusion of the denominator, which will lead to a third world war or something of that sort, for sure.

Speaker 4 So, but also in a spiritual sense, then we also have to recognize what do we want to be as people? Do we want to follow the way of Christ

Speaker 4 or do we want to follow the way of a Christ who leads us to a better world? We live in this world as best we can in order to prepare for the worlds to come.

Speaker 4 Not, we don't look. Christ came and said, my kingdom is not of this world.
So if you're truly a believing Christian,

Speaker 4 you you want to do all the things that will put you in good graces with God

Speaker 4 when it comes to judgment day, right?

Speaker 4 And that doesn't mean rebuilding the temple.

Speaker 4 It means living like a Christian and trying to build a society that lives by Christian principles and your government acting as one that acts by Christian principles.

Speaker 4 And so that doesn't mean slaughtering other people and leading to their to their cleansing.

Speaker 2 I really appreciate you taking this time.

Speaker 4 I think that there's a lot. I appreciate you.
I hope it does a little bit to open people's eyes. And I just want to end with one thing.

Speaker 2 Of course.

Speaker 4 I think the only way, you know, there was the writer Tanehisi Coates, who you may have differences of opinion on other things.

Speaker 4 But what really opened his eyes, he went with a writer's group to the West Bank and went and saw how the Palestinians were living and what the reality of the occupation was.

Speaker 4 And that got him to understand we have to make some changes. And there have been changes in the black church communities, definitely, reaching out.

Speaker 4 I would like one, I think that we have to have many more people come and see and not go on an AIPAC junket, but really go.

Speaker 4 And as Christians, tell your communities we want to go and we want to go and visit our Palestinian Christian communities. And this might be a little, you could decide what you want to do with it.

Speaker 4 My dream thing would be to have a trip, perhaps have you come on the trip, perhaps have

Speaker 4 Mel Gibson.

Speaker 4 Kat Stevens. It's a funny kind of thing, but he's a guy who was born in the Greek church and is now a Muslim.
And

Speaker 4 Zoran and Brad Lander and try to give the idea. And Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 4 The point is, we have to expose

Speaker 2 it all right.

Speaker 4 Not just a dinner. You're going to come visit with my friends in

Speaker 4 Jenin, okay? And in Bethlehem. And then you're going to go tell the world what's going on there.
Because you're all much better communicators than I am. And the world really has.

Speaker 4 Aren't we horrified by the idea? Aren't you, as a media person horrified why can't reporters go into gaza

Speaker 4 why can't and reporters are not allowed in large portions of the west bank now they call them military zones what kind of press freedom is that and what are they trying to hide so the only way that's going to break that is by enough of us saying enough influencers going over there and saying i want to see what's going on and then report back.

Speaker 4 And I thank you for giving me at least this little opportunity.

Speaker 4 I hope it moves things in the right direction. Thank you.
All right. Thank you.
Very much.

Speaker 2 Okay.

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