Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator?

Pierce Morgan, thank you, sorry. Telling off-color jokes off camera.
Thank you so much. No, my pleasure.
We are in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. We are.
I'm not even going to ask you how you wind up here, but I'm glad to see you. Well, we're both here for the same reason, actually.
We've both gone into the oil business. Yes.
I never, yeah. So I want to ask you, I want to start just on a very hostile note, okay? Because I feel like that's a good way

to frame that.

Good.

Let's start having me

to continue.

Zelensky is a hero.

How could you say that? I don't agree with you about him or Ukraine. I went to interview him in Kyiv, and he's an extraordinary story, obviously, this comedian who becomes president, having played a comedian who was president in a comedy show, right? And I've seen what you said about it i mean what's interesting to me on a bigger picture about ukraine russia your views a lot of conservative views in america is that 30 years ago there would have been no element of resistance from the conservative side about taking on a russian dictator who'd invaded a european country i know it's a lot more complicated.
I know the history about a lot of very smart people on, a lot of people you've interviewed. And, you know, I do learn a lot each time I talk to them about all the history, obviously.
My brother was a British Army colonel. My sister married a British Army colonel.
They've all engaged in conflicts around the world. And so it's complicated.
There's no doubt that on the Russian side, they believe they were provoked into doing this i know that you have sympathy with that view there's also no doubt from the ukrainian side that they believe since the 90s they've been this sovereign democratic country albeit not perfect you think deeply flawed i think they've been imperfect trying to improve and zelensky has actually i think been a force not bad. But ultimately, what's happened now is that you have a situation where, as Donald Trump told me recently, it's just the mowing fields now where you have thousands of young men being killed, often on a daily basis, both sides.
And no one's winning this war, it seems to me. And if anyone is going to win it, it's likely to be Russia, not Ukraine.
And then what happens? And that concerns me enormously. If the West allows Putin to just take the land he's taken, what guarantee do we have if he won't try and take the rest of Ukraine? He took Crimea.
He's back for more. I think he wants the whole of Ukraine.

I think he won't stop there if he's allowed to get it.

I think he's a pretty ruthless, evil Russian dictator.

How are we defining, just to find the term

so we can follow the same thing,

what's a dictator?

A dictator to me is somebody,

well, I would start by saying

you have no respect for democratic norms, a free and fair election. So like an unelected leader would be a dictator? Well, you wouldn't argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair elections? No, I've never, I'm not that interested actually.
Are you not? Not really, it's not my country. I'm interested in my leaders, whether they have the consent of their people people i'd not of great interest to me whether of i i do think putin's like way more popular than you know joe biden um to his people yes more popular in russia than biden was ever i wouldn't dispute that but why are you so against zelensky no i'm just trying to understand when you you dismiss putin as a dictator which totally fair i guess but i'm just trying to understand what you mean by dictator so the first criterion for dictatorship is that you're not elected and what else because zelensky's obviously not elected either yeah i you're so i'm just trying to kind of figure out what you're talking about well you well your comparison with zelensky and putin over the last two years i found baffling because you seem to think there's some moral equivalence between the two.
And Zelensky hasn't illegally invaded another country. Do you not have a problem with what Putin's done? Hold on.
I just want to know what a dictator is. I just want to know.
I mean, I bet, you know, maybe he's a better guy than Putin or whatever. And you could say some things about one or nothing.
But like, if we're just going to define dictator, the first feature of a dictator is he's not elected. So Zelensky's not elected.
He's also, well, he's banned a religious denomination. He's murdered his political opponents.
He has banned a language group. Those all seem like features of dictatorship to me.
Now, he has the support of the British intelligence agencies. That doesn't mean he's not a dictator, though.
That sounds like a dictator if i gave you a piece of paper and i'm like here are some qualities of a european leader you would say well that guy that's not legitimate that guy's a dictator i can't support that but his name's zelensky and he was once a comedian and he does my show so he's not a dictator i think it's a dictator well i i would argue that if you look at the history of ukraine the 90s, since it became a, want of a better phrase, democratic country, as I would say. Well, I mean, by the same criteria you support Putin being popular in his country, I think just under 90% of Ukrainians voted for it.
You wouldn't dispute that. Well, first of all, the country had a coup sponsored by the United States government, the CIA in 2014.
So everything that happened subsequent to that, I don't think we could call part of the democratic process. But just Zelensky personally is not elected.
He's not an elected leader. He rules by force.
There's no election that gives him legitimacy. So that's not a defense of Putin.
It's merely an attack on the idea that Putin's the only dictator in this contest. How is Zelensky not a dictator? Do you think Putin's a dictator? I guess, yeah.
I mean, I guess. I mean, if I stand up outside the Kremlin and say, down with Vladimir Putin, I'm probably in trouble.
That's why I don't live in Russia. I certainly think that Ukraine has had a lot of corruption.
No, no, but is Zelensky legitimate? How is he legitimate if he's not elected well how could you support an unelected leader well he's the president of the country well he calls himself that but there's no election that made him president he blew past the election and said oh there's a war I can't we can't have an election we're going to change the constitution so how is that a legitimate leader how could you support something like that that seems I, like a dictatorship. Well, I would categorize my support for him

as supporting him against an illegal invasion by Russia.

So this is like why we support Stalin against Hitler,

because Hitler's bad, so Stalin must be good,

but no, Stalin's also a dictator.

So like, how about we just don't support dictators

if we're against supporting dictators?

Or you could take my position, which is,

I don't want a dictatorship in my own country

because I live in a free country,

but we're going to have relations with the country

that helps us most, up to a certain limit. We're not going to be allies with Stalin because that's too evil.
We're not Winston Churchill or FDR or something. We're not going to go that far.
But in general, we will deal with countries that help us. But when we start having moral conversations about other countries, then we have to stick by our own standards.
And by your standard, you're supporting a dictator. I wonder how you can do that, Pierce Morgan.
i'm not saying they're morally pure in ukraine i'm not saying they're not riddled with but how is he not a dictator no no here's my point to you my defense of the bloodthirsty dictator my bloodthirsty dictator my defense of them is based on the illegal invasion by russia you and i can argue about whether russia was goaded and provoked into doing that i do not think anything justifies what did. Okay, that's a totally fair position.
I mean, I guess I disagree, sort of, but I don't think what you're saying is crazy at all. How is that more illegal than running a country without an election and banning a religious denomination? I don't understand that.
So yeah, you could certainly say Putin did a lot of bad things. I would readily agree to that to the extent I understand it.
But we're supporting my government and your government particularly are supporting this dictator in Ukraine who's oppressing Christians, who is banning people's native language and books in their native language. He's a book burner.
And like, that's totally cool because we hate Putin. That's not totally cool.
So would you just let Putin take Ukraine? I would say let's have an election in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian people elect their own leader and get rid of the midget dictator who now oppresses them, Zelensky. And I would definitely not support a guy who's not elected as a democratic figure because by definition, he's not.
By definition. I don't care who his enemies are.
He's not worth calling a beacon of democracy if he doesn't even have an election in Ukraine today. Because we've got a war.
We had elections in our country during the Second World War. So did you.
Like, why not hold him to democratic standards? I've got no problem with saying he should have an election. What about banning a Christian denomination? Yeah, I don't agree with any of those things.
Well, how could we ever support that? Because ultimately... We're paying for that.
Because ultimately, we have to make a calculation about whether we're happy with Russia invading what is a sovereign European democratic country. Well, it was not a sovereign country.
It was controlled by the United States. They installed their government in a coup in 2014.
It's a very puppet of the United States and Great Britain. They're not sovereign.
Do you think they're a democracy? Well, their leader's not leader's not elected so by definition they're not a democracy it may be a great place to vacation or they've got you know we're getting a lot of money from you know defense deals or they've got pretty women lots of great things you could say about the ukrainians they're actually great people from what i can tell i know a bunch of them they're awesome but they're definitely not a democracy should putin just take the land no so what happens i't know. We should stop paying for the slaughter of the entire Ukrainian population.

Because you don't know.

I mean, either he's allowed to take it or he isn't.

Either we now say, yes, you take it.

Why is it up to us?

I don't understand.

Well, who else can stop it?

Well, I don't know.

I mean, when Congo invades its neighbors, it's not axiomatic that we should be involved.

But when Saddam invaded Kuwait, why did America go and support that? Because there's oil here. Did you support that? Well, I was in college and drunk.
Did you basically agree with it? Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of dumb ideas. I thought it was okay to drink beer in the morning.
Was it right to do what America did with the Allies? British were there too? I don't know. Expelling from Kuwait? It wasn't a NATO country.
Well, that was, I mean, that's the kind of war that in theory I would support. You say, we have energy interests in this region and we want to keep it stable.
When you start getting theoretical, like we're preserving democracy by supporting dictators. We take energy from Ukraine, though.
There's an energy component to that. Maybe.
I don't see that. What I'm thinking is that the...
What I don't like is the moral overlay because it's fatuous and fraudulent. He's not...
This is not a democratic country. He is a dictator.
We've supported many dictators. We've supported Mobutu in Zaire, which no longer exists because he was a bulwark against the Soviets, we thought, and a million others.
No, but you've already said that you would support the expulsion of Saddam from Kuwait. Well, I don't know that I would.
Led by America. Well, you just said you did, right? No, I said I was drunk in college.
I haven't really thought. I said, but theoretically, you could make the case that we're in the United States, we need cheap energy.
We're going to go to war to preserve cheap energy. You know, that's not a crazy thing to say.
Maybe I could support that. Right.
So what's the difference between that and what's happened with Russia and Ukraine? Well, because we need ukraine's education has we need ukraine's wheat we do 25 of the world's wheat comes out i'm aware which is why you probably don't want to kill all of its farmers and sell all of its farmland which is what we've allowed to happen zelensky we're not kidding the russians are well no this war wouldn't exist if it weren't for the money and arms that we're sending to ukraine it would have been over in one day it never would have started if we hadn't said you say over what do you mean what would have happened i don't think i think it's very clear and i don't know that anyone would disagree with this that russia would not have invaded eastern ukraine if the biden administration hadn't sent kamala harris to the munich security conference in february of 2022 to say to zelensky on camera we're going to make you a NATO country, meaning we're going to put American NATO arms on the Russian border. Like you would not allow Chinese, your country probably would, but you shouldn't allow Chinese missiles in Scotland peering over Hadrian's wall aimed at London.
You'd be like, no, it's our, you can't do that on our border. And the Russians are like, no, you can't do that on our border and the Russians like no you can't do that on our border and we're like shut up you're Russian you have no right to determine what happens on your border piss off but it but if that actually happened my point is if the defense of expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was that we have energy interests in that country no one ever said we should kick him out but that, we should kick him out.
But that's obviously what we all knew. And it was done very quickly and competently by General Norman Schwarzkopf.
And it was great, great military operation. But surely the principle and ideology is not different.
And what was interesting is every Republican back in... They're idiots.
They support the Ukraine. No, I mean, every Republican in 91 would have supported that conflict.
Well, whether or not Republican members of the Senate support something is immaterial. It's my support of it, I can promise you.
Every Republican voter, I think, would have supported it. 35 years ago, I'm just saying.
So what's changed is a lot of Republican supporters now, conservatives in America, are against supporting Ukraine anymore. And I'm curious about that change in what has been, what, 35 years.
There's been a real sea change. And it may be because Americans are understandably war-weary.
They're fed up with spending a lot of money on foreign wars, foreign conflicts. There's a good argument America hasn't really won a foreign war since World War II.
You know, you look at from Vietnam onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on and so on. And I look at what's happened in Ukraine, and I'm just looking at it pragmatically.
Do we just let a Russian, do we let Russia, led at the moment by Vladimir Putin, who I would categorize as a dictator, do we let him just take what he wants? Even if he uses it and dresses it all up as, I'm doing this because I fear about NATO encroachment, which may well be his reasoning. May well be his reasoning.
But many people think it's not his reasoning. Okay.
Many people think. Why would you want to put U.S.
missiles on Russia's border? I don't understand. Because it's so obviously unacceptable for any sovereign nation to tolerate that.
Here's the other part of the argument. He has nuclear weapons.
Why would we want that? A lot of people... We have nuclear weapons too.
A lot of the argument... You guys have nuclear weapons? Yeah.
We do. Yes, we have nuclear weapons.
Why? Why? Nuclear deterrent. Great Britain has nuclear weapons? Yes, we do.
Do you think that's a good idea? Yes, absolutely. absolutely you know why you're freaking me out if ukraine had nuclear weapons they wouldn't have been invaded do you can we agree on that we told them to give up their nuclear deterrent invaded if the west hadn't said we're going to use you as a staging ground for intimidating russia like why would we want to do that why not just allow what we've done is pushed Russia into the Chinese.
And many people would say, how does that help us? Many people in that region say, actually, what's happened to Ukraine is precisely why they should have been in NATO, because if they had been in NATO, Putin wouldn't have invaded them. Okay.
And also they say, people say that also say, if we hadn't collectively, basically bullied Ukraine into giving up their nuclear deterrent, he wouldn't have done either because they would have had a nuclear weapon to defend themselves this is super crazy is it crazy yes it is crazier than your theories well actually i don't i don't think i mean i have a million theories but these are not among them it's not a theory to say that russia moved into eastern ukraine because the united states wouldn't give up on pushing for Ukraine admission into NATO when NATO did not want Ukraine. But there's also the criteria for admission.
But I think you're only giving half a picture. I'm not oblivious to that, but I would add this component to it, which is also not surely beyond the realms of fantasy.
Vladimir Putin knows that a lot of that part of eastern Ukraine, they still speak Russian. He has resented the breakup of the Soviet Union famously, and that actually he wanted to take back land that he believes should belong to Russia.
Should belong to Russia. Okay.
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But what's very obvious is they have an interest and have for over 300 years in controlling Crimea, where their fleet is based. They had a referendum in Crimea.
The people of Crimea are Russian and want to remain part of the Russian Federation. So he didn't take Crimea.
It's Russianussian it's filled with russians they had a referendum

that nobody disputes people should be allowed to choose their own government that's the basic precept of democracy you didn't take crimea okay should people be allowed to choose their own government yes okay so the people of crimea voted overwhelmingly to align with the russian government. So that's illegitimate.
Why? When did they do that? Right after the coup in 15, I think. Right.
So after they'd been invaded. Why do you think so many Russians vote for Putin in Russia? I don't think it was invaded.
Russia has controlled Crimea for 300 years. Yeah, but it wasn't russia's and in the same way that that that you say with the people of krimia voted overwhelmingly of course they did they would have been killed if they hadn't same way as in russia in a secret ballot the same way russia wait wait hold on so you're saying that the election was conducted under duress and people's votes were known to the russian government i don't think that's true i think it's a secret i'm saying it's exactly the same way that people in Russia vote for Putin you think it's an overwhelming show of support for him a lot of it is driven by fear okay that may or may not be true i don't know but the only measure of the only measure we have of popular consent is an election and when conducted by secret ballot if we think it's not being it's not the 2020 election it's like kind of a legitimate election that's what we go with and i'm just is there have you ever met anybody who believes that if a free and fair referendum were held once again in ukraine that ukraine would vote the ukraine i mean rather than crimeans would vote to align with the zelensky government i don't think so it was 97 look I'm just saying self-determination is the core idea in democracy.
They don't have it in Ukraine because they haven't had an election. They ignore the election because it's run by a dictator called Zelensky.
If you wanted to say he's a dictator, that's fine. You support a dictator.
The U.S., your government has supported many dictators. So is mine.
That's kind of a fact of life. There are very few democratically elected leaders.
Sometimes even our leaders aren't really democratically elected, as you know. I just don't like the moral bullshit that attaches to all of this.
That's fair enough. Where we tell the population, we're on the side of democracy and he's Winston Churchill.
I don't claim his mother Teresa against Hitler. No, but you have, though.
He's a marvelous person. I like him.
I'm allowed to, aren't I? I guess you like dictators. I've never said of Putin, he's a marvelous person i like him i'm allowed to honor i guess you like dictators i've never said a putin he's a marvelous person because like it's a little dictator-y for me i i think he's really smart i admire what he's done to russia but i'm not gonna sniff his jock because he's kind of a dictator but you're like oh i love that zelinski he's so great i do like him how can you like a man who's a dictator i don't think he's a dictator in what sense he's not elected he rules by force he rules with guns he kills his opponents he's assassinated a ton of people including you know i know someone he tried to assassinate fact how is that worth supporting do you feel a little guilty for supporting someone no i don't really no i think we should try and do more to help him win how rich do you think he's gotten from this I have no idea does it bother you that he's gotten rich he's not as rich as Vladimir Putin well I mean if all comparisons are to Putin then all bets are off Putin is Putin is financially raped and pillaged his country for maybe I don't know maybe I don't okay okay let's see he's got a personal worth of 100 billion rubles.
I don't know how we would I'm not an accountant. Okay, let's see.
He's got a personal net worth of 100 billion rubles, whatever it is. I don't know how we would know that, but great.
He does. He's evil.
We'll stick with that. But the question is, why would you support personally a dictator who's gotten rich on a war in his country, who bans a Christian denomination, and who murders his political ability?, he'd literally only been the leader of his country.
Does that bother you at all?

Well, he'd been the leader of his country for two years.

He's done a lot of oppression in two years.

He didn't get rich on corruption in two years.

But can I ask you, when you talk to his life, you say, why don't you have an election?

Why don't you stop murdering your political opponents?

Why don't you let people practice their Christian denomination?

Why don't you let Russian speakers speak Russian and read Russian books?

That's what non-dictators do. Did you say any of that to putin of course not why not because i'm not his friend i don't have the relationship with putin that you have with zelinski i didn't tweet after my interview you're a very handsome man i love you i love you i didn't call him a very handsome man i think you did i don't think he's a very handsome man okay hot hot is maybe what you said i don't think i called him hot okay well you said i really admire you and i think but you're asking me to ask all the questions of zolensky you didn't ask because he's a personal friend of yours i'm not friends

with putin i'm just a guy who's personal friends with zolensky i admire his read your twitter feed

i admire him you can't fool me you can't miscategorize me i'm not a friend of his i've

only met him once but i do admire his fortitude as a leader i love the fact he stayed in kiev

when the russians went in he could have fled many would have done that position everyone thought the

Roger his i've only met him once but i do admire his fortitude as a leader i love the fact he stayed in kiev when the russians went in he could have fled many would have done that position everyone thought the russians would win in a few days they didn't i agree i do admire the fortitude that he showed as a leader a leader those characteristics i like doesn't mean he's called a magnificent leader in fact i'm pretty sure i think he has been okay so i'm just asking since i didn't call putin a magnificent leader at all um but nor did you ask him any of the questions that you want me to ask i didn't feel like i didn't want to do what everybody does which is you're so bad bad vladimir putin meaning i'm so good i'm going to give you a moral extra i'm like whatever it's your country country's actually doing great i was super impressed by moscow i'd recommend it to everybody just because it's beautiful and orderly which i like not. I'm not moving there.
They don't have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me. But I didn't feel like that was my job.
I just want to hear what the guy says. We're fighting a war against him and no one's heard him speak.
Why do you believe him? I don't know that I do. Do you not? I mean, you believe his reasoning.
I believe something. You believe the reasoning for the war.
You're fully all in on the Russians. Well, there's kind of no question about that.
Well, there is a lot of don't really think so i don't think any informed person i mean the bill burns that only 10 of people in eastern ukraine actually want russia to take them

over okay i don't know how we know that but i believe that but it doesn't it's a poll same

poll you you know you you're questioning me about crimea so that wasn't a poll it was an election

the vast critical to democracy i don't know if you knew that the vast but you're a

leader an election is a poll they're called polls an election is a poll a poll is not an election the vast critical to democracy i don't know if you knew that the vast but you're a magnificent leader an election is a poll they call polls an election is a poll a poll is not an election right so they're different criteria for polls a poll can be an election yes now we're getting metaphysical but i would just say i would just say if you believe in democracy you believe in elections if you have a leader who's not elected he's not a democratic leader he's a dictator which is okay that's fine it's a foreign country i wouldn't call any dictator magnificent just because it seems a little how could zelensky have an election in the middle of a war out of interest i don't know how did how did franklin roosevelt do that in the middle of second world war how did he do that because no one had invaded america okay well but how about the people could actually vote well they're you've got half of half of ukraine making billions of dollars in kiev today how about the non-occupied parts of the country just make a good faith effort to have an election but he doesn't want to because i think he's pretty darn unpopular because he is a lackey of western powers who sold his country out and ukrainians know perfectly well that he's getting rich and so so is the entire leadership. I was in Corsion with France two weeks ago, which is probably the richest town in Europe.
It's a ski town in France near Geneva. And everybody at the Hermes store was Ukrainian using my money to buy $100,000 handbags.
Nobody seems to care about that. I care because that's not freedom fighting.
That's grifting. That's theft.
And everybody in europe knows that and you know that too go to romania all their you know high-end car dealerships are sold out because ukrainians have bought the car so to be clear when what the hell is this so okay well so when putin invaded ukraine you'd have given him what he wants take whatever you want well as i've as i've said and i really mean it from my heart i mean i no kind of, I'm not getting rich from this, so I'm saying what I sincerely believe, which is pushing Ukraine to join NATO when NATO doesn't want Ukraine. There's no strategic reason, no actual reason to have Ukraine or to have NATO at all.
We shouldn't have NATO at all. That's preposterous.
What's the point of NATO? To keep the Soviets from invading Western Europe. Oh, well, it's been 35 years since they existed.
To keep peace. How's that worked? To keep peace.
We now have the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe because of NATO. So how's this peacekeeping? Or you could argue, as many people do, that actually the reason is because Ukraine wasn't in NATO.
Had it been, Putin wouldn't have invaded. That's a super crazy.
This is like an addiction, and I've been through addiction, so I'm not judging at all, but it's like, I feel really shitty. I've got to have a glass of vodka to feel better.
Are you mocking my mental health? Yes. But I'm also saying that I've lived this, so I know what it feels like.
It's the thing that is killing you. It's truly killing you, whether it's NATO or vodka.
You become convinced is saving you. So you wake up hungover and you're like, oh, I feel so bad.
Give me a screwdriver. And if you're a screwdriver, you feel better.
And you don't realize that you're starting the cycle again. Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if it had been a member of NATO? No, he wouldn't have done.
Because then America would have been obliged. Here's what I know.
For a fact, Putin said this for 20 years.

Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO.

They will not accept that anymore that we would accept Chinese missiles in Tijuana.

Or you would accept Sri Lankan missiles in Glasgow.

You're just not going to accept that.

NATO is a defensive organization.

How is it defensive?

Because it has never acted proactively, aggressively.

Where were you when the Yugoslavia war was going on?

That's how they created Kosovo? Defensively? It was defensive. Oh, it was? Yes, it was.
Who was the aggressor there? Oh, you know. My brother-in-law was literally there.
Just admit it. What you're saying is insane.
It's not insane. NATO has never actually acted unilaterally aggressively.
Okay, so the Sovietian classes... It's never attacked anybody without being attacked.
It's always been defensive. Okay, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO? Look.
Just note, here's the point where you just admit defeat bow your head and be like you know what i bow before superior knowledge i totally got this wrong i can't believe i had such a silly idea i'm sure you think nice good guys in yugoslavia saying they're nice good guys we're just saying that was not a defensive action that was an offensive action bill clinton's like i don't like what you're doing i'm gonna use nato to kill you and he did and then created kosovo as a nato base because they were absolute genocidal like what you're doing. I'm going to use NATO to kill you.
And he did, and then created Kosovo as a NATO-based.

Because they were

absolute genocidal maniacs.

Well, they may have been naughty.

I'm not defending their behavior.

But that's what they were

being defended against.

Who are we defending?

The Yugoslavians.

They were being pillaged

and raped and murdered.

By other Yugoslavians?

Yes.

Okay.

This is getting intense.

NATO is a defensive organization.

You can say it all you want.

Just like you can say

Zelensky's a beacon of democracy

when he's not elected

in the world of reality and achievable goals. And here's the reality.
Russia is a nuclear armed power. It's the largest country on Earth by landmass.
It's also the remnants of a global empire. So they have a sense of themselves as a global player.
And they are because of energy and resources in general. Uranium.
I mean, they have a lot of resources the world needs. So they're a real country.
They're not Afghanistan. You can't just tell them what to do.
Get in line, bitch. They're not going to accept that, okay? So they have said, since the fall of the Soviet Union, you cannot have NATO on our border because it's a critical national interest of ours.
So unless you want to risk nuclear war, which we are now doing, you can't move NATO to their border whether you want to or not.

That's just a fact.

And if you do, you're going to get a war.

We've known that since the fall of the Soviet Union.

We promised not to do it.

And we tried to bring – he asked to be in NATO in 2000.

He asked George W. Bush to be in NATO.

Nobody can test that.

This evil dictator who wants to invade Liechtenstein asked to be in NATO.

Why wouldn't we let him in NATO?

Why did Condi Rice say, well, it can't be in NATO? Why do we have morons like Condi Rice in our US government? I don't know. So when he invaded her, what would you let him do? We're in a hall of mirrors now.
Look, not really. Okay.
We're in a very clear moral moment in history where Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine. It is a European country.
And we side with the dictator. It has been independent from Russia since the mid-90s.
They assassinate people. But what do you do? Do you let him take it? There's nothing moral about this.
Look, in the real world, we do things we can't achieve. And if we can't achieve something, we don't try and do it because millions will die as we're watching.
So what do you let him do then? Well, you start with a realistic understanding of the limits of your power,

which is all adults have to do.

My neighbors may offend me.

I want them to turn down the music.

I can't just go over there and shoot them.

I just can't.

It's against the law, and I'll pay a penalty if I do that.

So I have to negotiate with them.

Will you please turn down the music?

Shut up.

No, please do it.

If they won't, maybe threaten them.

Like, I live in the material real world. Right.
But once actually he's invaded what do you do then you have to decide like is it worth it right it worth it so that's interesting to me a million ukrainians are going to die their farmland is going to be sold to black rock the ukrainian nation will cease to exist they'll flood it with third worlders so what do you do what do you do what would i do yes i would say like if i took over the government in january of 2022 and we're on the verge of a russian invasion of uk. I would say, like, if I took over the government in January of 2022 and we're on the verge of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would say, guys, it's not worth trying to impose something that this country will never accept because if we try to do that, we'll get a war.
So do you let Putin take Ukraine? You don't let anybody do anything. You realistically assess what you're able to do because you're gambling with other people's lives.
By the way, if a million Brits had died, you might have a different perspective, but it's very easy to be like, oh, more Ukrainians should die for the cause of democracy. Let me assure you, if Russia invaded Britain, that would not be the view of the British people.
Our view would be to fight to the last man and woman to kick him out. But my question really is...
You really think so? My question is not... You guys just got invaded over the last 40 years and did nothing so i don't think so i don't think you would do that i think you'd be like we can't fight back because we have nuclear weapons but no real military so we'd like to negotiate just like all conquered nations do they negotiate on the basis of reality what can i actually achieve respectfully you're not answering my question which you don't have to because you're interviewing me in this bit but the question is once putin invaded do you let him take the whole country what do you do if i were in charge yes if i had come in if i came in in january of 2022 i would say to the state department i would say to the nato leadership i'm talking about february end of february early at that point i'm cleaning up a mess caused by the previous administration so assume it's happened let's say i'm donald trump who's actually coming in right in that exact circumstance right and he's now wrestling with this very problem he certainly is and it's it he doesn't want to give putin the win and that's my point to you do you actually want him to win well well i mean if your load star is whether other people win you will lose right okay that's a shitty way to go through life if i'm trying to prevent you a win no i'm trying to trying to win for my wife, my children, my neighborhood, my country.
I don't care whether you win or not. Once he's invaded, what do you do? Your victory has nothing to do with anything.
What I care about is my victory. You're in this as much as we are.
No, no, no. I care about my country and whether we win.
What's good for us, because I'm in charge. My country is theoretically in charge of nothing.
Is it good for America that Putin wins? This whole thing has been a disaster for we're going to lose the u.s dollar over this okay because we follow the advice of people like boris johnson who have no skin in the game whatsoever but they get to feel like a moral charge be like we're on the side of democracy okay it's it's so infuriating to make it i'm sorry to be so mean to the brits because it's our fault we can take it it. In fact, we started this.
But you guys went along like little Pekingese. You shouldn't have done that.
But why are you not answering my question? What would I do if I were Trump right now? No, no. Once he invaded Putin, what do you let him take? I'd call Putin.
Let him take. I would say at that point, to what extent can you clean it up? You call Putin and you say, all right, this happened.
First thing we're going to do is recognize it's not in our interest, interest the world's interest to have nato missiles on your border we don't want that there's no reason to want that because we don't want to drive you into the arms of china you are really part of europe and you should be part of the west because the west is christian world that has a lot in common and what if he says culturally- Culturally, religiously, linguistically, historically,

and we want to be a block against the rising- And he says, you know-

Obviously.

And he says, actually, I want Ukraine.

If you're the leader of the United States,

your number one goal is to keep Russia,

the world's largest land mass

with some of the world's deepest energy reserves

from a line with China,

which has too many people,

not enough land and not enough energy.

So if they get together, they create a block that is bigger than you economically and militarily. So you cannot let that happen.
That's number one goal. You cannot let that happen.
And that retard in charge of our country just allowed that to happen because he hates the United States as acted against its interests consistently from day one, 2020 to January 20th, 2025, when he left. thank God.
So that so that's the goal do not allow to the extent you can control it do not allow russia to align meaningfully with china they have much more in common with us they're part of europe you guys don't want to admit that they are i don't want to be pedantic you're not being pedantic what do you let putin take i don't care what i care about i care but what i care about is the balance of power in the world. And if the West finds itself in a place where it's got a much smaller collective economy and a much less powerful collective military than the East, then we're in serious trouble.
There's no balance in the world. The Chinese are in charge of everything.
And so you can't let that happen but if you roll over and you let putin take what he wants over it's all this like dick measuring contest let me just let me just respond roll over let me just respond if you roll over and let him take what he wants in ukraine why should china not go and take what they want in taiwan for example they would just take they are going to take what they want i'm not sure they will especially with trump as president part. I don't think they will.
Okay. Why don't we get to dictate what China does with Taiwan? Like there's fears of influence.
You'd be happy for them to take back Taiwan? I'm not happy. I'm not happy with any conflict ever.
I hate violence. I'm a Christian.
I'm just saying that great countries have spheres of influence. So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone's like, oh, the Saudis are interfering in Yemen.
Well, Yemen's right there. It's in their world.
They have an absolute interest in making sure that nothing crazy goes on in Yemen. We have the same interest in Mexico and in Canada, and we have some crazy cross-dressing prime minister in Canada.
So we kick them out because they're on our border. That's what great powers do.
That's what they've always done. That's what they always will do.
So it's totally fair for us to recognize that the countries around Russia, now we shouldn't be invading or torturing them or oppressing them, of course, but that's their sphere. And big picture, holy smokes, you do not want the two largest powers in the world, apart from the United States, to get together and align against us.
Why do you support Israel against Hamas, for example? Why do you support America giving them billions of dollars? Well, I don't. You don't support Israel being supported by America? I support Israel in the sense that I really like Israel.
I brought my family on vacation. But do you agree with America supplying them with a lot of arms? To the extent that it helps the United States, I'm for it, of course.
I think what we need is so you do believe in america interfering in countries a long way away it just depends which country no i your principle it doesn't really apply in israel i'll articulate it for the third time just to be totally clear i believe the united states like every country should to the extent that it can act on behalf of its own people and their perceived interests.

We can debate what those interests are.

But that doesn't apply in Israel.

I don't know what you mean.

America's supporting Israel because it's an ally.

I don't even know what those words mean.

I'm just saying my principle is...

They're an ally, right?

I mean, they both...

I don't know what that means to be an ally.

I mean, we have no...

It means that when Israel wants to attack in Gaza and attack Hamas, America will help it because it's his ally. That's not what it means to be an ally.
So it gives it billions of dollars worth, doesn't it? That's not what it means to be an ally, okay? Well, fundamentally, it does. I have no greater allies than my own children.
When they come to me and say, I want to do this, I assess whether it's good for them or not. And if I don't think it is, I don't support it.
Right. Because they're my true allies.
They're my children. But why would you support America getting involved in Israel? So just because a country that's your ally says, I want to do this, does not mean axiomatically you support it.
Maybe it's not good for you or me. So do you support America supporting Israel to the tune of billions of dollars? It depends.
If you can make... What's in America's interest in what's happening in Gaza? It depends in all cases.
It's not just about Israel. But do you support what's happening then in the support in the attacks in Gaza, for example? Because I don't see the difference between that and what's happening in Ukraine.
This is a long way away from America. There's no direct involvement with America.
There's no mainland involvement with America. And yet you think it's right that America supports Israel.
Well, put words in your mouth. But you don't think it's right that America...
I don't think those are the words that came out of my mouth. You don't think it's right America supports Ukraine when Russia invades it? I have a simple solution.
Let me explain what I think. And then that way we'll get...
Am I wrong? We'll get right to what I think. Am I wrong? I actually tuned out midway through.

I'm not exactly sure what you said.

You can't tune out when I'm right.

I did, I did, I did.

Just because I'm right, you can't tune out.

I didn't follow everything.

You can't tune out when I'm right.

No, but it was more a lecture about what I think.

And then I'm like, wait, I know what I think.

I think I'm the world's expert on what I think.

In fact, I think I'm the uncontested premier of my own head.

That is true.

So I'm going to unload its contents on you right now explain tell you what is america's national interest in israel um i'll define the parameters as well because i'm happier with that um i would say i would say i support the right of all sovereign nations to act within what they believe is their own interest like we don't always know our own interest own interest in our personal lives or between nations. Like, we think it's good for us, but it may not be.
The vodka in the morning analogy. Not good, actually, but I thought it was.
Now I know it's not. But to the extent that we think we know, I think countries should act on behalf of their own citizens.
That's the basic idea in democracy, okay? And there's certainly a case, you could make a case that whatever we're giving to Israel this year in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan guarantees, however we're doing it, is good for the United States. I think you just have to make that case.
Why is it good for the United States? Well, you could make that case. But why is it? I'm not convinced.
What is the case? Well, I don't know. You'd have to be an advocate for it.
You are a vociferous advocate for it, so why don't you tell me? For what? For USAID to Israel in the current conflict. Actually, I haven't expected a view about that at all.
I'm just curious about your, the difference in your own... You're not an Israel hater, are you? Not at all.
Not at all. Why are you attacking Israel? I don't know why.
Like, what problem do you have with Israel, Piers? I have no problem with Israel. The priests are like this.
They secretly hate Israel. I have no problem with Israel whatsoever.
It feels like you do. Is Netanyahu a dictator? Actually, I don't like Netanyahu.
I think you should. So you hate Israel.
I think you should go. No, but that's why.
Let me just ask you one more time. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Hang on. Now we're getting into, I'm not comfortable with this.
Here's my question. Should I be platforming you? That's my question.
You just said you don't like Netanyahu? I'm trying to work out whose brand suffers more when we platform each other but let me ask you this let me ask you this i'm gonna need a second one more time just quietly for the people at the back you don't like america getting involved in helping ukraine against russia because there's no national interest for america in doing that in your eyes well there's a negative national okay so that's one so i get that using the u.s dollar as the world's reserve currency because of this war all right so fine no greater national so that's your position is america first that there's no interest for america shouldn't be doing it every country it's a problem between it's a problem between uh ukraine and russia okay that's fine a lot of people have that view i respect it what i can't understand is the difference in your logic and principle about supporting israel in its war with hamas which is many thousands of miles away from america have i know there's no direct if i've been a great advocate for the war it goes i don't i missed that part of the conversation well you support america supporting israel you don't support america supporting ukraine i don't support america supporting any nation on the planet to its own detriment every element of our foreign policy should serve the united states that's the point of our government is to serve the people who live there called citizens that's what democracy is there's no other reason so if i'm in charge of a country and i decide actually i should do this because people who pay me want me to do it or i'm making money to do it then i'm by definition illegitimate that's not democracy that democracy. That is a species of oligarchy or whatever.
You could assign a name to it. That's not democracy.
So I just believe in our system and our leaders should act on behalf of their own people or what they think is their own people's interests. And I would apply that to Israel.
I'd apply it to Ukraine. I think there have certainly been times where we have benefited from our alliance with Israel? You know, it's an alliance,

just like we have an alliance with our country.

They are allies then.

I don't know what ally means.

It's short for alliance.

Yeah, you're right, it is.

Yes.

It's so funny, I never knew that.

I've got you.

You got me.

You've literally just.

When it comes to etymology,

you are the unchallenged king.

Boom.

You're blowing my mind, Piers Morgan.

My English linguistics. I was about to say, you guys invented the language.
You know what? It is our language. You lot fucked it up.
It's our language. As a PG Woodhouse fan, I totally agree.
It's a root, not a route. It's Iran, not Iran.
And it's a hurricane, not a hurricane. Hurricane is embarrassing.
These are all our words. We gave them to you.
You don't have hurricanes. You change them.
We have hurricanes.

You don't have hurricanes or pecans?

We have one in 87.

It knocked down all the trees in my house.

You had a hurricane?

Yes, 87.

I think it's a typhoon when it happens.

Famously, the BBC weatherman at the time announced on the BBC main news on the night,

there were people ringing in saying, is there going to be a hurricane in the UK?

And no one knew what it meant.

And let me tell you, there is not. Four hours later, every tree in south of England fell down.
Are you serious? Yes. Well, we called it a hurricane is my point.
Yeah, well, you don't have enough experience. As someone who spends a lot of time in Florida, it's a hurricane.
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Visit funjet.com or call your local travel advisor and start planning your perfect getaway today. Would you kill Putin if you could? Would I? Not personally, no.
But do you think it should be the policy of the UK government, the US government? Because it is now the policy to kill Putin. No, I would prefer the people of Russia to vote him out.
But I also feel the same way about netanyahu and the people in israel um so you're not calling for the assassination of netanyahu or putin no no um do you think that um if putin were to leave either by force or choice that russia would have a more pro-western leader not necessarily no okay highly unlikely highly unlikely i think that's a fair assessment then why would you want since there's no evidence that the majority of russians don't want putin there's overwhelming evidence that they do want putin so he appears to be the choice of his own country which he may not like or whatever but it seems true um and he's the most pro-western leader we're likely to get in our lifetimes then why are we against putin exactly uh because i don't believe him in the way that you seem to don't believe i don't believe anybody that he has this very well intentioned perfectly reasonable understandable reason why he had to illegally invade a democratic country and take a third of its people and take a third of its land of people when you think that's... I think it's hilarious when you make reference to what's legal in the middle of a war.
What's illegal? When your country and mine blew up Nord Stream and destroyed the Western European economy, was that legal? You're talking to the editor of the paper that opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq. You supported that.
Well, I supported the invasion of Iraq. That was illegal too.
And I've apologized for 22 years, but I wanted to do something. You said that was illegal?

I don't even know what that means.

Breaking the law.

What law?

Against international law.

Who makes international law?

Well, the international community.

Oh, the international community.

What do they mean?

Do you not think there's anything like...

You don't believe in international law?

I don't even know what that means.

Who is the international community?

Is Iran in the international community?

So you think any invasion of a sovereign government can be legal?

I don't even know what you mean by legal. It's wrong.
Lawful. What law? Are there international policemen? Who are they? What are you even talking about? Well, you don't think there are international laws.
No, I think there are moral laws, and that's what I care about. Certain things are wrong, regardless of what the leadership of any country says.
You don't believe that. You believe there are actual laws.
It's not international laws. There are no international laws.
Really? Are there international police? You don't believe in the... Are there international courts? You don't believe in the...
Yes, there are international courts. Really? So who's punished in international courts? And there's also, by the way...
Other than Milosevic. Who's punished? Do you believe in the Geneva Convention or not? I believe in the ideas behind the Geneva Convention, absolutely.
But it's universally disregarded, including by your country, which I think is bioweapons, by the way. You should get on that, find out.
Those are prohibited, but I think you guys have them. You're in violation.
If that turns out to be true, I would be violently opposed to that. But you know that it is true.
I don't actually. I think you should find out.
I'll look into it. I mean, there are biolabs in Ukraine.
What are biolabs doing in Ukraine, do you think? Are you comfortable with that? No, it wouldn't be if they're there. But you said Zelensky was a fabulous leader.
Why would he have biolabs? I like him personally. The dictator with bioweapons.
I'm not into it. I'm sorry.
I'm just, I guess that it would be, it's against international law, so I'm opposed. No, look, I'm just saying international law is a theoretical concept, and it's literally theoretical because it's not enforceable, and we know that because it's not enforced enforced so what matters is what's the interest of your country and what's right and wrong and i'm a christian so that's like pretty clear for me all this shit is wrong it's completely wrong it's wrong to send cluster bombs to ukraine which you supported i'm totally opposed to that cluster bombs to kill more kids like why that's wrong i don't care if international law says it's wrong that's was it wrong was it wrong for america to use atomic bombs in World War II? Really? To use nuclear weapons? Yes.
To win the war? Of course. To save many hundreds of thousands of more people dying? That's what happened.
I don't... You know, this is what we refer to in the business as a theoretical assertion.
Not really. Well, it's literally theoretical.
Whether you agree or don't agree with the use of nuclear weapons nobody disputes the fact that it brought an end to a war which hadn't been allowed to carry on for another six months to a year would have carried many more people why drop it on japan's christian population is there some reason hiroshima wasn't enough no because they wanted to test a different variety of atomic weapon so like i'm against that i'm against killing civilians'm against killing civilians. I'm against firebombing cities.
I'm against bioweapons. I'm against chemical weapons.
What weapons do you support? I guess conventional weapons. You know, I'm...
Well, how big a bomb do you support? Look, if you're intentionally killing civilians... Isn't it a question just of scale? I mean...
To some extent, it is, yeah. If you believe in a big bomb and it kills 500 people, but you don't agree with one that kills 1,000, what's the difference ideologically? It depends who they are.
I mean, I think you can say, I mean, there are... So after Pearl Harbor, you think it was wrong with the Japanese refusing to surrender, vowing to kill as many people as they possibly could, that America decided to use its two most powerful weapons to bring an end to the war? That's one way to put it.
I would say it's more morally justified what America did than what the British did, for example, in carpet bombing Dresden. I think there was more justification because they were trying to bring an end to the war as quickly as they could to avoid potentially millions more people dying.
It's no defense of Imperial Japan or Pearl Harbor or Franklin Roosevelt for allowing allowing pearl harbor which he did um it's not a defense of any of that to say if you're intentionally killing civilians you probably shouldn't beat your chest and brag about it you know maybe you can make i agree with that maybe you make the case that we had to do it or whatever but you should i agree you should weep and that's evil and you should just say it's evil and i know it's really really threatening it evil? Ben Shapiro to say that or whatever. Is it evil? To kill civilians on purpose? Yeah, it is.
I think it is. Really? Kids and children.
Well, how is it not, actually? In a war? Well, you can call it whatever you want. How is it right to kill women and children? I didn't say- Well, because I think there's a moral right behind you.
If you are literally- To kill women and children? If there's a world war that threatens the entire- How do you want? some people killed your kids like your eight-year-old like how is that morally justifiable because actually you have to well by your criteria it's disgusting okay it's nothing so no war is morally justified i mean i think it's pretty hard to justify i mean yeah i'm sure you know a pure defensive action sure but all i, it's all ugly. It's all hard to stomach.
I've actually seen some of it up close. It's super ugly.
You can say you hate it. But the fact you quibble with it being morally justified.
To intentionally kill noncombatants, women and children, I think we can say that's wrong. In fact, I thought that was the thing we were fighting against.
And censorship and dictatorship, people ruling without being elected, people using force to get their will, like, I thought that was the whole thing we were fighting against. So how about we don't become that? And I'm just saying all kinds of decisions are made under duress.
I have made decisions under duress, foolishly, that I'm ashamed of, including supporting the Iraq war. But why are we defending it? I just don't understand that.
And we're defending it, of course, because we're still doing it. And a lot of people are getting rich and a lot of people find meaning in their otherwise barren lives.
Rather than like raising decent children and having a productive life, making something, they exist to destroy. I just think that's evil.
You think no military action is morally justifiable then? I didn't say that. Aren't you implying that? I'm not implying it.
I never imply anything. I just say things.
It's the death of any innocent people. Implying things is for girls.
I'm just telling you what I think. If you kill any innocent people, civilians, in a war, you think it's all morally lacking in justification? Because I would argue against that.
Right. You're arguing against a construct that you created in order to argue against.
Not really. Well, I'm being super straightforward.
Is there any form of warfare that's morally justified? Go on. Let me finish.
I'm saying when you intentionally kill women and children, when you wage war through fear by murdering the civilian population, I don't think that's a good thing. And I don't think you should be defending it.
And I don't know why it's such a threat to say that out loud. If you're firebombing someone's city as we did Tokyo, as you guys did Dresden, and a lot of other cities, by the way, in both of those countries, if you're dropping atomic weapons in the middle of town on a Catholic church, I don't know why you have to look back 80 years later and be like, that was a great thing.
It wasn't a great thing. It was a shameful thing.
And we should be better than that because we're not savages. I don't agree with you.
I don't agree with you. Okay.
Apparently you don't. I don't.
You said right in the camera it's OK to kill eight year olds because it's war. Well, it's not OK to kill eight year olds.
I didn't say anything is OK. What I said is morally justified.
Because when you have an enemy that is prepared to put six million Jews into gas chambers and murder six million more people, they are prepared to do anything. And you have to stop them.
And then any response you give to me is morally justified any response well pretty much if you're if you're taking the war to them to try and end the war but you don't want to try to defeat a nihilistic group like the nazis yes it's morally nihilistic says the guy who's defending the murder of eight-year-olds they're nihilistic i'm not defending the murder of any eight-year-olds is expressing a species of nihilism the whole point is we are better than you because we have limits there's some things where i'm not going to rape your wife i'm just not how do you stop let me finish okay i am not going to behave like an animal you are that's why we're at war you bombed preemptively my pacific fleet in pearl harbor we weren't even at war why did you do that that's outrageous it. I get it.
But we're not like you. Not punish.
Defend. We're not defending.
There was no threat of invasion. If you're the United States, I mean, you live in a tiny island nation.
I think there was a real threat. Japanese attack Pearl Harbor.
That is a form of invasion, isn't it? It was not an invasion. It was an attack on our fleet.
It's a mass attack on America. I'm not defending Pearl Harbor.
I don't think Roosevelt should have let it happen, which he did. But once it happened, what do you do? You attack them back.
I get it. So you agree? Okay, but hold on.
There are finer distinctions here. Not really.
You'd attack them back. Let me finish my fucking sentence.
Was it morally defensible to attack them back? Stop, stop, stop. Okay.
Yes, it was morally defensible to attack them back. Thank you.
Thank you. You agree with me? But it depends what attack means.
You agree with me. You didn't qualify.
You didn't qualify. It's like crazy.
You didn't qualify. You say it's okay to molest children.
Why do you say that? You're like, I didn't say that. No.
You just said it's okay to molest children. Now why would you be in favor of child molestation? Nobody's talked about molesting children.
That's what you did. You just said it was morally justified for America to...
It's like hilarious. America, you said America attacking after people on they like they end the interview and they're like what just happened actually you'll be saying that told me what i believe and then he attacked me for believing it so hilarious i love that it's like a species of masturbation like you don't need another person present don't not masturbation it's making love to someone it's making love to someone you love okay let me just say you don't ever want to wind up in a place where you're defending the killing of children you just don't now you go into any that wasn't what i was doing i was saying there's moral just very much what you're doing no no i said it was morally justified to kill children i said morally just no no morally justified to drop bombs which end a war yes i do believe can i ask you just since we're still on hiroshima nagasaki hard to say you make the case for nagasaki but whatever why not if you have this fantastic new weapon and you want to prevent somehow you're required to invade japan like i don't know why we'd be required to invade japan by the way like no one ever answers that question.
They just attacked you? No, they attacked us four years earlier, and we've now beaten them and driven them out of the Philippines and Malaysia and all this stuff. We've won.
Why do we have to invade mainland Japan? No one ever answers that question. We just kind of have to because we have to.
Okay, I'm not second-guessing the military leadership of the Second World War, but I am second-guessing this. Why wouldn't you bomb just military installations? Why drop these bombs in the middle of a city when you know that overwhelmingly the incinerated people will be civilians?

Like, why would you do that?

I would not do that. I would say, have the bomb, okay, we're going to drop it on critical military infrastructure, arms manufacturing plants, on a fleet.

Why would you drop it?

Because when the enemy is not making that calculation, you have stop them stop them from what not being invaded stop them from killing your civilians killing your people japan at in in the summer of 1945 was in no position to kill any american civilians period so i think they've thrown a couple firebombs over oregon three years before but the point is look i don't want to i understand you know people do their best under pressure they make mistakes i've made a million of them i'm not judging even harry truman who i do think was kind of a pig but whatever i'm not even judging i maybe would have done the same thing i'm just saying 80 years later why we why defend that like what's the point i think it was morally justified to kill 200 000 civilians yeah so then we wouldn't have to invade which we didn't have to anyway to save potentially millions of lives being killed yes of our invaders of their country of both sides to bring an end to the how about just not invade them they wouldn't surrender you got to bring the war to an end but they had lost why do you but why do you have to invade they refuse to surrender okay but we'd kick them out of all of their colonies we'd driven them back to their island you don't dispute dropping those bombs end of the war do you well i am disputing it that's what i'm doing right now did end the war oh disputing that it ended the war sure of course so it the means and effect were correct i'm also not disputing that bringing down the twin towers changed the united states like if you commit enough killing you will change people's behavior including getting them to surrender i'm just my only question is is it worth it and what are you becoming when you participate in yeah but i think i think that's a meaningful question that nobody addresses like who am i but you i'm a decent person i am i i'm an imperfect person this is how americans i think should think of themselves and mostly do but i'm also a representative of an enlightened country product of an enlightened civilization called western civilization and there are certain things i will not do even if they benefit me i'm not doing that because i'm not that guy i don't kill children i don't rape women i don't send women into battle to defend me which i guess we now do that's wrong so you you would condemn what israel's done in Gaza for I don't want to be involved in it nearly 20,000 children said to have died I I don't you condemn think that that is a by your criteria I don't is it morally justified that is a calculation that Israel has to make I don't want to be have anything to do with that. You have no view? No view? It's hard to take a lecture from someone who just admitted that he hates Israel in every fiber of his body.
You said that. Now you're distracting.
No, no, I'm not distracting. Oh, yes, you are.
You're the one who said that. You're now distracting.
You said, I hate Benjamin Netanyahu. No, I didn't.
I said, I don't think he should be a leader anymore. You hate him.
You shouldn't be a leader.

With an irrational hatred that, you know, I don't know where it comes from.

I can't account for what's in your soul.

I don't have an x-ray into what's deep inside you.

But all you said was I hate him.

I have no problem saying that I think Israel's response has gone way too far.

Way too many civilians have been killed.

What I'm surprised about is that you, having lectured me about the deaths of eight-year-olds,

you don't want to morally condemn what Israel's done and does. I'm curious as to why.
By your criteria. Yeah.
My criteria apply solely, and this is a thread of consistency throughout my arguments here and everywhere for the last 20 years. They have to do with the behavior of the United States, which is my country.
And it's been my family's country for hundreds of years. I pay my full taxes.
I feel very vested. I'm a shareholder in my country.
So its behavior matters greatly to me. I'm implicated in its behavior.
And I don't want the United States to participate in things that are counter to its interests or counter to the values of Western civilization. That's really simple.
So other countries do all kinds of abominable things including cannibalism a lot actually and human

sacrifice a lot actually and you know okay they're not my country so i don't want the united states involved in anything that's morally indefensible or counter to its own interests period so israel's dropping american bombs on gaza killing lots of children in order to do you think the death of I'll tell you what I think.

Hang on.

Don't tell me what I think.

You think the killing is...

I think I think you think...

You think the killing of... You think the killing of civilians is morally indefensible? Let me tell you what I think.
So American bombs are being used to kill a lot of children and women in Gaza. I hate that.
Is it morally... Let me tell you what I...
Is it morally indefensible? Now you don't want to say? I'm in the process of telling you. Go on then.
Stand back. Let the flower bloom.
Okay? Stop tending the garden, Pierce. I hate the fact that civilians are killed with American weapons.
I hate it. I hate it in Ukraine.
I hate it in Gaza. I hate it in the occupied territories.
As do I. Whatever we're calling them these days.
I think in the specific case of Israel, we have been closely allied with the Israeli government since the 1950s. We're actually instrumental in the creation of Israel, so since the late 40s.
And I think that there are times when our interests have aligned and there are times, the transfer of military technology to China being one of them, where those interests diverge. I would very much appreciate an environment in the United States where Americans could speak openly about what their money is doing in a bunch of different foreign countries, including that one.
And I think that we should reassess all our relationships, all our alliances with our allies on the basis of whether or not it's good for the United States on a bunch of different levels, economically, whether it's good for our internal politics, whether it's good for our power abroad, etc., etc. And yes, more than, you know, I really think that we need a much more honest conversation about our relationship with Israel.
And I feel, if I can just say one thing and brag, I feel like I'm one of the only people in the United States who's not emotional on the topic. Everyone's so emotional about it.
They hate Israel. They love Israel.
It's like, I'm American, okay? I like Israel. I don't love any country other than my own.
And I think we should have a rational conversation about this. And at this point, as you well know, we don't.
So that's my actual position. Yeah, I mean, look, for what it's worth, my position is Israel had a fundamental duty, not just a right, but a duty to defend its people after October the 7th, given the horrendous scale of that attack.
And my only question I kept asking repeatedly from about the first couple of weeks onwards was what is a proportionate response? What is morally justified? In general, your relationships with your neighbors are your problem. In my home, my neighbors, I own my house.
I can't leave easily. But it's also an American problem because American military is being used.
No, but you make calculations about your behavior based on what you can achieve, based on what you think your interests are, and that's true at the homeowner level and it's true at the nation level. So you deal with your neighbors and that's your problem.
And if you're in a fight with your neighbors, it's up to you to resolve it. It's not my problem.
I do not have to resolve your disputes with your neighbors. And that is true of Ukraine and it's true of Israel.
I'm sorry. I wish you well.
I may have, you know, obviously I like Israel because I like going there. I know Israelis and I really like them.
I like Israel.rael oh it's the best i mean to visit it's the best i like israeli people i do too i like palestinian people too that i've met i do too and there are a lot of christians the one thing i'll just be honest since you're pushing me on this that makes me a little bit emotional is there are a lot of christians christian arabs and having traveled a lot i can say just as a matter of personal preference i really like them i've never met Arab that I didn't like, actually. I think they're really amazing people, and a lot of them have been killed or mistreated with American money and weapons, and I think it's disgusting, and I think it's especially disgusting that Christian leaders in the United States have said nothing because they're bullied and bought off, and I think they should feel shame because they've dodged their duty, which is to speak up on behalf of their brothers in Christ, and they haven't.
And there are Christians in Gaza who were killed. There are a ton in the West Bank.
And by the way, that's the cradle of Christianity. Where's the Church of the Nativity? It's in Bethlehem.
The Pope calls a church in... He's absurd.
I can't. Yeah, but he actually calls a Catholic church in Gaza every night to see how they're doing.
Every night, apparently, he calls. Yeah, that's the Pope thing.
I'm not getting catholic sorry you're gonna have to deal with them it's your pope not mine so we were in a meeting here at tcn the other day and i looked around the room and every other person had a kind of ruddy vitality sort of pink cheeks alertness bright eyes full mental acuity and a cheerfulness you could almost smell. And I asked, why does everyone look so good? And part of the answer, of course, is they like what we do for a living.
It's really interesting. We think it's important.
But another reason everyone looks so good is because they'd all had a great night sleep. I'm not making this up.
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But in general, I'm speaking about the United States, Protestants of the United States, that's the world that I'm from that I understand. They have an obligation to stand up for their brother Christians around the world, and they don't in this specific case because they're intimidated.
And I think that's really shameful, and I think they should feel shame for it. It's not a political question.
It's not, do you hate Israel? It's like, I don't hate Israel. Anybody who murders Christians, defenseless Christians, the religion of peace, the actual religion of peace, I'm opposed to that.
And we should just say that. It's not controversial.
It should not be controversial. And it just shows how totally afraid and lacking self-confidence christians are to just say like i'm sorry i'm not like attacking me but i'm opposed to that you can't use my money to kill christians blow up a church no or to storm the church of the nativity that's my religion no you don't get a dollar if you do that and by the way we're not giving you any money until you promise to treat christians as equals as well you know what i mean that's that's how i personally feel and i think all christians should feel that way it's not attacking anybody it's just a baseline demand of like dignity and respect and they don't get it i mean fundamentally that makes me emotional yeah look fundamentally i we're not a million miles apart and we both neither of us like war nobody who likes war should ever one of us likes dictators no you do yeah you do i didn't tweet out i love you vladimir putin you didn't need to you said it in your eyes you said it in your eyes but i didn't say it on twitter you should have you know what you should have been on twitter you just said everyone thought you did i didn't i don't give a shit what people but I didn't tweet.
Vladimir Putin, you're fabulous. You didn't need to.
I didn't need to. The body language said it for you.
Started humping his leg in the interview? No. Anyway.
No, I'm against dictatorship, and I don't want to send money to dictators. Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to a dictator? No, because I don't see Zelolensky as a dictator in the way that you do if your prime minister decided not to have another election let's can literally be leader for what two years two years i think he'd been in charge putin what is it what's he into nearly 30 years now i think putin has been in uh 24 24 i'm not defending putin i'm just saying, like, all dictatorship is bad.
Like, a little dollop of dictatorship is as bad as a mouthful of dictatorship. I'm just against dictatorship.
I'm for democracy. Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute.
That's what you called Zelensky. Oh, I thought you were talking to me.
I thought that was your out for me. Inspiring, passionate, determined and resolute.
And very handsome, though, that's implied. I would agree with all of those things.
He would. Yes.
He would. I think the courage, the moral courage he showed on the night that the Russians invaded, when people thought they would sweep through Keeve and almost certainly kill him, the fact he immediately went on social media and with people around him and said i'm not leaving i'm staying here for you that's moral courage of the kind we saw with trump when he stood there and got back up and went fight fight when he assassinates his political opponents or when he steals us aid or he allows his generals to sell half the missiles they get from the united states the mexican drug cartels and Iran and everyone else on the black market.
Is that inspiring? Well, you're making a lot of allegations against him. Those are facts.
Okay. You say they're facts, but other people dispute them.
Who disputes that they're selling weapons in Ukraine on the black market? I don't think anyone disputes. I'm sure that's happening.
Oh, it's happening. Yeah.
Who disputes that Zelensky's murdered his political opponents?

No one.

Has he?

You think he personally has ordered the murders?

Well, he's in charge of the country.

He's the dictator.

Do you think he has?

He's the dictator.

You just said he did.

Well, I mean, in the same sense that we would say...

You wouldn't dispute that Vladimir Putin does that relentlessly, that he imprisons and tortures and kills.

Oh, yeah.

No, I think there's a long history of that in the region, your enemies putin has done that it seems clear to me i'm not sending him money i'm not calling him passionate determined resolute and handsome but you haven't i hate this i love this i don't hate it i know because i keep asking you the same question and for some reason you don't want to answer it yeah no i mean i've answered all. Let me ask you a really easy question.
Now that you have been, like me, fired from your cushy mainstream media gig, how much happier are you and why? And looking back at the television networks and newspapers, how many newspapers do you work for? I ran two of the big ones in the UK. Yeah, right.
But over your whole career, how many did you work for? I worked for three. Four, actually.
Okay, right. So you've been at every stage of British media.
Looking back, how do you feel about them? I think I had the best of it, really. I certainly think in newspaper terms, it was before the internet had really taken hold.
And so you were the receptacle for news for people. You know, there weren't many television networks.
You didn't really have cable television when I was running the papers. So papers have much more influence and much more power because they were bringing the news to people.
People woke up in the morning and they would read their paper to find out what had happened. That doesn't happen anymore.
People already know what's happened. There are millions of news networks all over cable news.
There's millions of internet sites. You can get the news.
Everyone knows what's going on. So the point and relevance and power and influence of newspapers has dissipated.
They can still break big stories and have big influence. And if I was running one again, A, I'd be completely digital by now.
I'd just abandon print papers altogether. But the economic model is very difficult if you do that.
You don't make as much from the digital side as you do from print so they've got to weigh that up and somehow get through it but I would invest heavily in investigative longer-term journalism because that's how you can now bring news to people they don't already know well sure but I meant all true totally true but I'm really asking about the honesty level yeah so now you have a gig where you can say whatever you want you're your own boss you can make a real living i have no idea how you're doing but given your numbers are huge so i i bet you you're probably making more than you made before we're in that range anyway so it's all great but the greatest part is you can say exactly what you want how would you compare that to your previous i would say the difference is difference is we can't get cancelled, right? Who's going to cancel us? Ourselves. So we have a complete freedom and a sort of liberation from the restrictions inevitably come with working for big companies.
Big companies in the media have really struggled, I think, to move with the way young people now get their information. They don't really understand the big legacy media companies that young people do not watch linear television.
They don't read print newspapers. What they've really struggled with is to stop lying.
They can't stop lying. They're like compulsive liars.
And they have controlled the way news is detonated. The thing about you and me and other people that do this, whether you're on the left or the right, there's no control.
We don't get controlled by anybody. We're only answerable to ourselves and what we want to do.
I think I'm like you in the sense of we're not politically aligned in many ways, but we love talking to each other, love debating, love arguing, love asking questions, love learning. I think we are politically aligned.
We are in many ways. You do own guns i know that you do secret i know that you do and i know that you think this whole ukraine thing is insane let me tell you well i don't but let me tell you i know that you do i can see it in your eyes like how do i get out of this there's a lot of military a lot of military in my family who know how to use guns better than me i know but not all use of guns is equal right some is counterproductive you know the thing about guns i'll just say this for your audience it will all be looking at me thinking i'm the 2a gun grabber the reality is it's a complete cultural difference in my country everybody used to have a gun everybody used to in the old days now very few people have guns there are incredibly tight restrictions and the consequence of that is we have almost zero gun crime.
Is your country, is London safe now? No, no. I'm about to come to that.
The problem we have is with knights, right? So I'm not saying for a moment you get rid of all the guns, nobody gets killed. Of course they do.
We have a knife crime problem epidemic in our country. No, you have a people problem.
You have the kind of people who stab each other. And you didn't used to have that.
Well, we did. We did.
No, you didn't. We did.
I mean, it's measurable. How many people got stabbed in London in 1970 or shot compared to now? Sure, but there are...
It's a massive increase because the people, the attitudes of the people, the actions of the people are totally different. You've got different people and different behaviours and you can't admit that because I'm not sure why.
No, no, because actually there are lots of white English people who stab each other. Oh, I know.
Right. Oh, I know.
So it's not just about the influx of migrants, if that's what you're saying. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that I do think immigration has changed your country for the much, much worse. Well, it certainly changed the country.
Much worse. That's my opinion.
But it's not just immigrants who are behaving badly at all. There are a lot of nativeborn indigenous Brits who are behaving badly.
That is totally true. And there are a lot of immigrants in your country who are kind of superior, actually, if we're being totally honest, who are really impressive.
I'm not making Blake and Saban. I'm just saying that the behavior has changed of the people who live there, right? You can't be trusted with guns now because you're out of control.
I don't know about that. I just know we have very tight gun laws and no gun violence.

The interest of,

well, very little.

My question for you... But do you own a gun secretly?

I do not, no.

Do you want to?

You know why?

I get five years in prison

if I got caught with it.

So you're afraid

of your government

which doesn't trust you

because it's a dictatorship.

Let me ask you a question

about guns since you raised him.

I'm curious.

Genuinely curious.

Yeah, yeah.

It's said there are

over 400 million guns

in circulation in America. I hope so.
And it's are over 400 million guns in circulation in America.

I hope so.

And it's apparently a million new guns get sold every month.

So that number exponentially rises.

The number of mass shootings in America is also rising.

Do you think anything should be done about that?

If I had my time again talking about this with Americans,

I would never have been so censorious.

I would never have been talking about gun control. I think the word control alienates americans but what i would have said was how do you make it safer how do you stop so many people getting shot what do you do about it will you ban ssris immediately immediately ssris you ban whole categories of medication psychoaptic absolutely like immediately Yeah.
I mean, the truth is that, you know, drugs and alcohol drive a lot of our social ills, a lot of them. And when people are sober, and I would say, you know, if you're on Xanax or Prozac or whatever, you're not sober.
Right. I agree.
But certainly alcohol and meth and, you know, most of our social problems are either caused or exacerbated by the drugs that people take. That's just a fact.
And mass shootings are definitely in that category. So, look, as you found out, your knife crime has just exponentially jumped recently.
And that's not because there are more knives. People use them at dinner every night and have for hundreds of years and not since the roman times they've used knives and not stabbed each other it's because people are behaving differently like why is that that's true i must say all the gun control people who want to send all the guns to ukraine so they can go kill other eastern europeans it's like it's sort of weird do you think it's weird no one thing is weird about the question i asked you is simply that if i was an american there's a lot of gun crime in ukraine are you adding to that well it's a war it's a different thing it's gun crime i call it gun crime people getting killed you think ukraine defending itself is a crime i think there are a lot of people getting killed with guns and i think it's really sad and we should disarm ukraine really well sure people getting killed with guns they shouldn't have there should be strict controls on guns in ukraine the automatic weapons you guys are sending automatic weapons to ukraine to kill other human beings i just think that i'm just not comfortable with that morally see what you're doing the british cheshire cat thing with me no because i think it's a fatuous argument, but it's fine.
Fatuous meaning brilliant?

You're avoiding answering my question.

Which is, why do we have so many guns?

No, no.

Because we're free.

No, no, didn't ask that.

Because we're free because no one can tell us.

We can't defend ourselves.

We all used to have guns too.

And then you guys, after the Second World War,

which was like a liberation war, and you won,

you lost all your freedom,

and now you can't even express your political opinions

or they put you in jail.

So, like, how did you win?

How did you win? Is that what victory looks like? You lose all your rights and now you can't even express your political opinions or they put you in jail so like how did you win how did you win is that what victory looks like you lose all your rights your economy gets destroyed you know what we won bankers and all of a sudden oh i won we won because i'm not conducting this interview in german which i would have been linguistic so i'd rather not speak german and be goose stepping around my yard in england yeah yeah. People are arrested for praying.
We literally won our freedom from people. Where's your freedom? You can get arrested.
I'm as free as you could possibly want a human being to be. You can't defend yourself.
You can't control who comes into your country. And you can't criticize government policies or you get arrested.
So how are you free? You're a slave, aren't you? No. Really? How free are you? We have cultural problems in our country and societal problems.
Facebook right now and say, I don't want any more immigrants in my country. They're making it worse.
You could say that. What you couldn't say, because a lot of these stories, I have to say, in America have been spun completely disingenuously.
There's one case, for example, I see everyone trying to send me as an example of Britain's gone mad. Elon Musk has done it.
It's a guy years in prison actually what he was doing this guy was he was orchestrating and directing rioting on hotels containing asylum seekers because he had a incorrect belief that someone who had stabbed three young girls to death and stabbed loads of others in a horrific attack was an illegal asylum seeker maybe he doesn't want asylum seekers in his country i mean is that okay fine it's not okay to have no asylum seekers it is not okay to allow too many people to come in why is it not okay to have it's not okay to have a broken asylum system as we have i have any asylum seekers because i believe you should as a good country because we're a caring compassionate country and by the way britain for all your knocking of how is that caring compassion your native population is in massive decline how is that compassionate to your people britain actually is one of the most tolerant multicultural countries in the world to this day then why do you have so many stabbings we have a problem with stabbings but you know what how many people get killed by stabbings a year in britain compared to evidence hang on you have a problem we're very compassionate we do have a lot of stabbings fine but by your criteria they're just defending themselves. Haven't they got a right to bear arms? Okay.
Well, hang on you have a problem we're very compassionate we do have a lot of stabbing fine but by your criteria they're just defending themselves haven't they got a right to bear arms okay well hang on have they like hang on really any stabbing years ago now you've got a ton of stabbing but everything's totally fine and if you complain about it you're going to jail do the british people have a right to bear arms tucker all free people have a right to defend themselves bear arms of course yeah how. Yeah.
They can carry knives. So why are you annoyed about the knife crime?

I'm against all crime.

Look, here's my only point.

I'm sure if they use the Tucker Carlson argument, well, the other guy's got a knife, I better carry one.

In the United States, which is governed by a system we inherited with great gratitude from you, from the English,

a person has a right, which is, we believe, God-given. It's's inherent we're born with it because we're not slaves we're free people to say what he thinks is true period period and government has to not only not infringe on that right but protect it it exists to protect that right your system is a little different we took a little farther and enshrined that in our bill of rights which unfortunately you don't have i bet you wish did.
But from an American perspective, the idea that you would ever punish someone for talking... But that wasn't why that guy was punished.
That may be right. I would not contest that.
It is right. He was literally inciting a riot.
But you would have to not contest that there are hundreds of people who've gone to jail in the last five years in the UK for expressing opinions. That is a fact.
It depends what you think that opinion is. Most of them have been directing violence or inciting violence.
That's different. I don't think that's right, Pierce.
I don't think they were charged with that. That is right.
Okay. And also, look at the case of Tommy Robinson.
Tommy Robinson, most Americans I speak to think he's in jail as some kind of political prisoner like Nelson Mandela for having views about... Or Julian Assange.
Yeah, but that's not why...

Tommy Robinson's in jail because he defamed

a young Syrian refugee. He defamed? Yeah, he lied

about him. Okay.
Well, he did.

But he was then... No, the guy eventually...

How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying?

What? How many of your leaders have gone to jail

for lying? They lie constantly. Every time they speak, they lie.

Not enough. Not enough.

Right around zero, actually.

But they throw powerless people in jail for saying things they don't like.

You also have a defamation law in the United States.

People have gone to jail for breaking that law.

That's happened.

So you're not so pure yourself.

You have criminal...

Yes, you do.

Criminal defamation, you do.

Go and check it.

Go and check it.

Okay.

There's a lawyer sitting right there, but he's occupied.

And you've had people go to prison in America for defamation.

For libeling people. For saying things that you don't like it's happened yeah i'm just pausing because i don't know if that's true it's true i think i would be opposed to it is true do people go to jail in the united states for defamation yep they face civil judgment they face civil judgment people have gone to jail making this up out of nothing no i'll go and check it let me check check with an actual american people are american right this is my college roommate oh he was more than okay but this is my college roommate he's an attorney i had a civil offense i had all this debate on twitter recently people there's a criminal defamation there is where go and check it in certain states thank you has anyone gone to jail for thank you i've never heard of that sorry the british guy is now telling americans about their own law i'm unpleased obviously but i think i'm gonna um i'm gonna dismiss that as i've never no no i'll take the fifth but the point is um you should never allow anybody in your country to go to jail for having unpopular opinions it depends if they're inciting violence that's the criteria even mean i do think by the way for what it's worth that some people have been put in jail for saying stuff on facebook that they shouldn't have been in jail i agree with that the criminal prosecution service cps shared a video in x warning people about using social media and it stated this and i'm quoting i can't do the english accent but this is what they say try think before you post exclamation point content that incites violence or hatred right isn't just harmful it can be illegal paging george orwell the cps takes online violence seriously and will prosecute when the legal test is met remind those close to you to share responsibility or face the consequences that's just like north korea at that.
You're inciting hatred? If you're inciting violence against people. No, no, or hatred.
Right, but the violence you'd agree with. Inciting violence? I don't know what that means.
It means you literally direct people to go and attack an asylum see go, tell. No, that's directing violence.
Inciting violence. Well, that's the same thing.
No, it's not the same. It's not the same.
So if I say, Piers, I want you to go... Go and beat up Alex.
Right. That's inciting and directing violence.
It's the same thing. You could say...
Same thing. It's not the same.
What's the difference? Hold on. I'll tell you what the difference is.
Your government is saying that some opinions are so inflammatory that they inspire people to commit acts of violence. Yes.
Okay. That is a definition that justifies censorship.
If you want my honest opinion, some of the ones who've gone to prison should not be in prison. How about inciting hatred? Well, it depends what you're in trying to do.
How do you measure hatred? Do you have a hatred meter? Me? Does UK government? I mean, you're defending it. No, no, I'm not defending it.
I'm literally telling telling you i'm not defending that i'm saying there are people who've been put in prison why don't you overthrow your government it's a tyrannical government i will always support people's right to have hateful views that's fine i don't agree with the government but it's a crime i don't agree with that right but it depends what they're saying what are you doing to overthrow the tyranny if they are incited if the excitement of hatred makes people go and commit acts of violence, and you intend it to, that should be a crime.

You shouldn't incite people to go and commit acts of violence.

But if I say something that the government doesn't like, and this is, of course, it's all self-preservation here. No one is ever penalized for attacking.

If you get up and you say, I hate Vladimir Putin and all Russians, you're not going to go to jail in the UK for that because that's the official policy of your government. You wouldn't go to prison in the UK.
No! No, no, but you wouldn't. They could lynch Russians and they'd be like, well, you have a right to say that.
But you asked me earlier, if you said you hate immigrants, you wouldn't go to prison for that. If you said that they're all over there in that hotel, go and throw firebombs at it, that should be a crime, shouldn't it? Yeah, if you're telling people to go commit...
That's what most of these cases involve. No, it's not.
That's not what it said. That's not true.
The cases you're talking about are people who've been in prison. Content that incites hatred isn't just harmful, it can be illegal.
So my criteria... Okay, but I'm talking about your government, and I'm asking why...
I told you I don't agree with it. Well, that's dictatorship, from what I can tell.

I don't, yes.

How is it not dictatorship?

The government is saying things that we hate are illegal.

I'm half agreeing with you.

Yeah, good.

Right?

So what are you doing to change it?

So you've got a prime minister now.

I'm on my show regularly saying I think it's wrong.

But at a certain point, don't people have a right to do what the American colonists did,

and that's to throw off tyranny?

Because their rights are inherent.

They're given by God because they're human beings.

So you want them to be violent?

What's the problem? people have a right to do what the American colonists did, and that's to throw off tyranny, because their rights are inherent. They're given by God because they're human beings.
So you want them to be violent? Of course not. I'm totally opposed to violence.
You're the one who was justifying firebombing stuff. Wasn't the example you just gave, wasn't it conducted with violence? Of course not.
But you should be single-minded in getting a government that permits people to live like human beings, like slaves right i don't think anyone should be able to use on social media uh they shouldn't be using rhetoric which is inciting violence period hate i think this idea of what is hate is a much more complex thing i don't feel comfortable somebody believes in free speech in people saying hateful things and being put in prison. It's wrong.
It should be happening. Well, inciting violence is an absurd standard because, and they tried to take me out many times with this, some wacko will go shoot innocents and be like, he watched this show or he had the same opinions as you.
It's like, I couldn't be more against violence. I'm mad at my government because it funds violence around the world.
So inciting violence is just a way to get your critics to shut up so you need to loot their country if i get it but if i say to people here can you come and stab tucker okay but that's right that's not inciting that's like directing it's like being a criminal i think you'll find i look i may be wrong but i'm really you are i'm really wrong in in linguistic matters i think you'll find the definition of inciting and directing is not dissimilar. You know as well as I, and I don't know why you would defend it, that your government is stifling criticism of itself, of its own illegitimate leadership, using law enforcement.
I think in relation to hate crime, yes, they've overreached on that. In relation to using social media.
But they've flooded your country. We had riots last time.
And that's very unpopular with the native population. Always has been.
Always has been. And the government for 40 years has told them in increasing volume to shut up and stop complaining.
And now it's putting them in jail for complaining about it. That's the truth.
It's not as simplistic as that. Of course it's not as simplistic as that.
Of course not. I agree.
I'm overgeneralizing generalizing by the way you wouldn't have a country without a flood of immigrants america wouldn't exist but you're not america you have a native population but why would you object to the concept of a flood of immigrants you literally got built on it well look what happened to your country everything but my country is by its nature different. Built on the premise of immigrants.

You're a monarchy run by the head of your church.

There's a monarchy here.

Right.

And they're living as they should, which is consistent with their values.

And your country isn't.

So that's all I'm saying. I think our monarchy, well, I think the king's a fine man.

Really?

My king, yes.

What has he done to preserve England? Pres england yeah what do you mean well i don't know i mean it well he's a christian he's the head of the what is it he's the head of the church of england yeah he does yeah how's how's church attendance he goes quite regularly come on it's all a joke dude you had a christian country now you don't so we have a So that's not a win, that's a failure. We have a far less Christian country, I agree.
I'm sad about that as a Christian. So can I ask you, Keir Starmer seems like the most unpopular, now that Trudeau's gone, the most unpopular leader in the West.
He's certainly gone from winning with a big majority last summer to being incredibly unpopular very quickly. Can he hang on? You've got four more years of this-ish? Is that right? Yeah.
I mean, yeah. I would say that there's a reasonable chance he will contest at the next election in four years' time.
It depends, really, how the next year goes. I mean, I've never seen anyone lose such political capital so quickly.
And he did it because he came in and decided that the strategy he would do is to say the Tories were so awful that the country's now in a terrible state. So bad that we're going to have to do all these punitive taxes and we're going to have to whack the pensioners and we're going to have to whack the farmers and punish all these groups of people.
And everyone was like, wow, you've waited 14 years in opposition. And this is what you're doing? What did the farmers do wrong? I never understood that.
They make our food. I mean, it's ridiculous.
Most of them live literally- Because British food's not good? Was that the problem? Most of them lose money, farmers. And the idea, he created the impression that a lot of pensioners can afford it, a lot of farmers can afford it.
Actually, most of them can't. Most of them can't.
But why would you target farmers? I mean, it's just... Inexplicable.
But it's happened throughout Europe and the United States, attacking farmers. And it seems like part of a bigger...
Should reward farmers. Farmers are the lifeblood of any civilized country.
But I guess what I'm saying is, right, but if you're looking big picture, if you're opposed to famine and you're for human flourishing and people, then you'd want to do whatever you could to have enough food i agree and if country by country by country germany great britain denmark holland they're all attacking farmers united states maybe there's a bigger anti-human agenda at work does it do you say i just think there's a it's a pretty dumb political agenda that's been pursued so it's It's not just dumb, it's like weird. Yeah.
Of all the groups you'd attack, white farmers. Makes no sense.
It does make sense, though, doesn't it? Why? Well, clearly there's an effort to reduce the human population. If all these countries...
Do you think he wants to starve the Brits and kill us? Well, I don't know. You can't assess the motives of individuals.
They're unknowable. He's not trying to starve the British people.
Okay. I don't know him.
I don't know i don't you know you can't assess the motives of individuals

they're unknowable he's trying to starve the british people okay i i don't know him i don't know what he's trying to do no no no no no you no you come on look around the world government after government after government around the world is endorsing policies that they know will reduce birth rates, is attacking agriculture,

and is allowing, I don't know,

drugs and food that kill people and make them less healthy.

So if you add that all up,

you don't have to know their motives.

You just look at the effects and you're like,

the effect is to kill people.

What is going on here?

Do you ever wonder that?

Crap governance.

But it's consistent around,

it's like every country is like,

you know, we should help people kill themselves.

How would you ever come up with that?

At a time when we need more people, not less.

Yeah, what do you think that is?

Bad governing.

I mean... But why is it the same in every country?

Well, I just think the food thing in particular,

look how fat everyone's getting.

Right.

I mean, fat, lazy, sedentary. And and you're like that can't be good for anyone no but why is it happening bad bad politicians but why is every politician in every western country coming to the same set of policies whose effect is fewer children more unhealthy dead people like what i, you don't have to be a conspiracy nut to just say,

I'm looking at just the numbers.

How many kids per family? Dropping.

That is the consequence of all the political actions that have been taken.

I agree.

I don't think it's a mad global conspiracy in the way you might be inferring.

I don't know what I'm inferring. I'm just noticing.

Listen, I know where you're coming from on this. I don't believe they're actually smart enough to do that from the politicians.
Then why are they all doing it? All of them. I think because they're not very competent and they're not very good and they're lazy.
But wouldn't just the law of averages would suggest that, like, I don't know, the governments of Spain, Belgium, New Zealand, pick another, Mexico Mexico would adopt the opposite policies.

Like, we're going to pay you to have more kids, not one of them.

Here's what I agree with you about.

It's wrong, and it's got to change.

We need more people, not less.

We need better food, not crap food.

We need to reduce the size of our human beings

whilst increasing populations.

Otherwise, the planet's going to kill itself,

going to basically self-implode and die out, as Elon Musk is warning. He's right.
I agree with that. I'm going to end on this.
Have we ended on an agreement? I just want to know, since you're, I think, good at predictions, how do you think the war in Ukraine will end? I think it will end. I do think Donald Trump will get a deal.
I do think in the end that Russia will probably keep most of the land they've taken. I personally wish that wasn't the case, but I think that's how this gets ended.
And I hope that Ukraine get enough guarantees that the rest of their country won't get taken down the line. We saw Crimea go.
We've seen the East go pretty much. And I suspect Vladimir Putin, I believe, will try and take the rest of it.
I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
I hope a deal gets done soon because too many people are dying. I heard the other day that 100,000 people on that battlefield died in six weeks on both sides collectively.
I mean, this is horrendous. This has been the stuff you saw at the SOM.
I mean, it's like— I totally agree. Do you think it's kind of—I strongly agree with you and i have for two and a half years but why is it only now that we're getting sort of more realistic casualty figures how could a government fund a war without knowing how many people died in that war you think the ukrainians have not been telling the truth about i think the us and british governments have both lied about it and kept those numbers from the public and i feel like that's a crime they should tell the truth they should be transparent if that's the case it's wrong i hope you'll go back to great britain and grab him by the throat and make him tell the truth you know what made you've made me think go back to britain and make us jolt us into action you know what i like about the trump thing in the last week just the sense of hope optimism yes dynamism even the bit before the election when he went down to watch one of elon musk's rockets launch and just the fact that america's back in the business of going into space aiming to go to the moon aiming to go to mars yes where's that in my country? Where is that kind of dynamism? Where is someone hitting the ground with 200 things they want to do? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
You may not agree with all of them, but my God, the energy that Trump is expending, the dynamism, the aspiration, the thing of making America great again. I got a feeling this time around, Trump's going to have a very good four years.
I'm not so convinced about my country, and I want to get that kind of oomph and energy and dynamism in Britain because I don't disagree with a lot of the characterization you've had. If we are a country in the doldrums right now, we are.
And it solves a lot of problems. I think that's really smart.
Yeah. You know, the energy, the attitude.
All of it. Why are people doing heroin in the first place?

Yeah.

Why would you want to do fentanyl?

Yeah, yeah.

Because you're hopeless.

We have a terrible drugs problem.

No, I agree.

In our country.

Terrible.

You have a bad drugs problem in America.

And you solve it with attitude.

Yeah, you do.

Piers Morgan, thank you for taking all this time.

I enjoyed it.

It's great to see you in Saudi Arabia.

We're still again sometime.

Thank you.

Thanks very much.

That was awesome.

Enjoyed it.