Tucker Carlson and Michael Shellenberger Break Down the California Fires

So I guess the first question is, thank you for doing this.

Are we rolling?

We're rolling.

Okay.

Let's roll, shall we?

Good to be with you, Tucker.

Nice to see you.

Great to be with you.

Yeah.

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Here's the episode.

So where do these fires, first of all,

how many fires are there and where do they come from?

I believe there's five active fires right now.

And these are ignition driven fires,

meaning that this is all shopperol or scrubland brush area. So, this is different than the Sierra forests.
Right. These are not forest fires.
Yeah, these are not forest fires. And that doesn't mean that you're doomed to them, but it's not the same problem that we get in the Sierras.
So, they're ignition-driven and they're obviously wind-driven, but there's nothing unusual. I just interviewed a climate scientist about this, or rather an environmental forest scientist about this.
There's nothing unusual about this. I mean, it is somewhat unusual to get, you have a dry period, and then the Santa Ana winds in January, but it's not like that never happens.
I'm working my way there. Of course.
I mean, the important thing to know is that the National Weather Service put out a fire warning on January 2nd and a local weatherman actually forecasted on January 1st. They said we're headed towards a super dangerous moment.
The next day, the National Weather Service Los Angeles held a briefing to underscore that point. The day after that, the mayor flew to Ghana.
I mean, it's crazy. So these were public press conferences? Yeah, these were, oh, I mean, it's absolutely public and it goes to the politicians first, but it's all said public.
It's the National Weather Service. So that was like literally on the first or second, the governor should have called out the National Guard.
He should have called all of our neighboring states. He should have called Canada and Mexico, asked for all their backup help.
They should have started circling C-130s that are especially retrofitted that can dump the fire retardant or water. They should have had helicopters circling to see where the fires were.
It should have been immediate mobilization. Pardon my ignorance.
First of all, I didn't see that news when it happened, but I didn't know that. So it was really clear to the people who run the city and the state that you had this combination of dry conditions and heavy winds, high winds.
Yeah, and because there's so many ignitions, because of really these two factors, mostly the electrical wires, you know, brushing up against, you know, vegetation and triggering a fire. That's kind of one of the main ones.
The other one is homeless people starting fires all over LA. Half of all fires put out by the LA fire department are started by homeless people.
It's been that way for years. Why do homeless people start fires? Well, you know, it turns out meth heads love to start fires.
You know, there's just every drug has its kind of weird element to it. But meth heads love starting fires.
They love destroying things. Meth is like the drug of nihilism.
So it's like perfect drug for LA and California at the moment. So it's not, these are not cooking fires.
They could be cooking fires. But starting fires to destroy things.
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
Meth addiction. Oh yeah, for sure.
But it's not evil or anything. No, totally fine.
Yeah. What could go wrong? But isn't classically starting fires and torturing animals, aren't those like signs of sociopathic behavior? Psychopathy.
Yeah. I mean, for sure.
I mean, look, meth makes you psych, you know, it makes you psychopathic. It makes you psychotic.
It's meth-induced psychosis. But, I mean, yeah, and all the crazy, I mean, people behave, I mean, things that people do on meth, I mean, it is like, it's like they behave with like superhuman crazy powers, the levels of violence, the assaults, the, I mean, you just, just when you interview people particularly people in recovery

that describe being on meth i mean they're just awake for like weeks at a time like it's not even clear how they get any sleep at all so that's just that madness has continued and you know and mayor bass who's the so just to isolate what you're saying and just to pause to kind of get a really important point. Fires, at least half of fires in L.A.
County are started by homeless people. Yeah.
And you believe that's driven by their use of a specific drug, meth. Not totally.
I mean, I think homeless people are going to often start fires for a lot of different reasons. I mean, drugs can start fires, but the meth heads are like into fire.
Like it's a big part of meth culture. It's just starting things on fire.
No one sees this in theological terms. It's like this.
I know it's amazing. Well, it is amazing.
Yeah. No, it's satanic.
I mean, you kind of go, it's totally satanic. It seems about as obvious as it could be.
Yeah. It's awful.
So, but you know, you kind of go, I mean, so first of all, that problem should have been dealt with, obviously, years ago, should never have been allowed. So but that they knew on January 1, January 2, that the fires were coming, like it was inevitable that there would be fires, like there was like zero doubt among anybody that knows anything about fire in Los Angeles that the fires were coming, the fires were coming.
so then like the governor should have been there the mayor should have been there you should just like literally you should it's all about and it's all about prevention in part because by the time the fire trucks are having to weave their way up those little hills of that's right the pacific palisades it's over i mean so the thing to keep in mind is that okay well so that's the first thing is that they just have to mobilize in advance so that's a feature for people people who aren't aware of the geography of LA. Oh, it's just incredible.
It's why it's so beautiful. Beautiful places are dangerous.
That's exactly right. So that's like the main event.
So I mean, because I knew I did my first thing I did is I was like, look, they're going to come out and say it was inevitable. And that's just a total lie.
Because of global warming. Yeah, because of global warming.
And I mean, anyway, we can get so there's so many places to go here. But just on the most practical sense, they knew the fires were coming and they didn't do anything.
The mayor leaves the country. She flies to Ghana after having promised not to leave the country, by the way, as mayor.
She's traveled at least six times out of the country and she promised not to travel. Why is it important the mayor be there? Because you say, well, aren't there other people in charge? Because it's a command.
It's an emergency command situation. She has to be able to issue orders and to waive regulations and make things happen.
The governor has to be doing that. They didn't do that.
They should have had, by the way, they should get the fire trucks up into the fiery areas right away.

They can also start, you know, they can start clearing brush. They can start, you know, but literally they could just be in those neighborhoods just sitting there for days at a time waiting for the fires to happen.
Put them out as soon as they happen. I'm not saying that they would have been able to prevent all the fires from happening.
But you remember like the big fire in 1993, I think it was Laguna Beach, or maybe it was Malibu as well, but it was like 700 homes. We're at 10,000, you know, structures at this point, homes and buildings gone, you know, 200,000 people evacuated.
I mean, it's like, it's madness. It never needed to get to that level.
Okay, so that's the first thing.

They just needed to have been there before the fire started,

and they didn't do that because the politicians are just,

they're focused on themselves.

They're focused on the next political office they want to get.

So that was the first thing.

The second thing is the water runs out, right?

And you hear people go, oh, well, there's nothing you can do

because once the homes are burned down, the water lines, you can see the pictures, you know, the water, like, will be spilling out, you know, of the homes, and so that lowered the water pressure. That was a total lie.
There is something called the Santa Inés Water Reservoir, which is the potable water, meaning the drinking water that also goes into the fire hydrant system because the fire hydrant, you know, the fire hydrant system is the drinking water system. It's the same thing.
It's the exact same system. That reservoir was empty, and it was the second largest of the 10 potable water reservoirs that serve LA County.
Let me make one distinction here, because there's actually two kinds of reservoirs. There's the reservoir with the snowmelt water, these really big lakes, basically.
And that's the unpurified water. And then they purify it and then they feed into these reservoirs where they store the water for all sorts of reasons for emergencies.
So that is an absolute crime, that that Santa Inés reservoir. Why? Because, first of all, it's right next to the Pacific Palisades.
So for people that don't know, Pacific Palisades, of course, is like right near, it's on your way to Malibu. It's like the last big neighborhood before you get to the- And they're Palisades.
They're over the water. That's right.
And so they have a reservoir. You look at the Google Maps and you look at where the Santa Inés Reservoir is, it's right next to like a few thousand feet from Pacific Palisades.
And it's above, it's really high up. And so if you had had water coming from that, the firefighters would have had plenty of water.
It would not have, they would have had the water pressure, even if you had lost some homes and had the water out. So two major failures.
The first was the failure to aggressively respond days in advance, even though they had very clear warnings. The second was the reservoir was empty.
One reporter has reported that the firefighters had not been warned by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power that that reservoir was empty. if that true, that's just additionally scandalous.
But one of the things that we think probably happened is that they had been required to build, have a cover for the clean, for the Santinés Reservoir, which is the potable water, the cover to prevent the water from being contaminated. In the old days, like the 50s and 60s,

birds would poop in those reservoirs and they would just put a bunch of chlorine in them.

And then we decided, well, the water was still,

had a lot of, you know, it still was not particularly clean,

so we wanted to be cleaner.

So you can just put a cover over it,

which is a kind of plastic or rubber lining.

It appears that there was a tear in that.

They had to repair it. They should not have removed that water ever during a fire season.
If you need to make that repair, you do need to drain right before you do the repair, but you would make that drain. The people that I interviewed said, look, it would take days, if not a couple of weeks to repair it.
It was empty for at least a year. So it was sitting there for a year.
And the person I interviewed who works as a senior executive at a different water utility in California said, if we had any of our reservoirs empty, we would be like super nervous the entire time. And you would also then have backup water systems.
So it's like any catastrophe, you know,

you just have multiple errors occurring in advance and at the moment. And then the fires, and then the actual ignitions, you can't completely prevent ignitions, but you can significantly reduce them.
One would be to not allow people to camp outside all over Los Angeles, Los Angeles County with somewhere around, I think it's 40 to 60,000 homeless people in the whole county. Madness.
And then the other is the electrical wires that brush up against the vegetation and create fire. With that, you want to clear the vegetation from around the wires.
That's obvious. And then you can also just stop, I mean, this is a not great solution, but you could certainly do it in a pinch if you need to.
You just stop the electricity from going into those homes for some period. I mean, it's a drag.
I live in the Berkeley Hills, which is also a dangerous fire zone. And when the winds are really strong, they'll just cut off power as a precaution so that to prevent an ignition.
So, I think the thing that, the reason I wanted to come on your show, even though I'm in the midst of a huge book deadline, is because I'm really concerned about this nihilistic discourse that there's literally nothing that could be done. I mean, that is exactly where the politicians want to go.
I worry that, you know, ordinary people have that idea. The problem is, I mean, it's absurd.
I mean, this idea that you couldn't live in Los Angeles, right? And it's like, you can say it about anywhere. You'd be like, oh, there's snowfalls in this place during winter, you know, or hurricanes.
I mean, we're in an area that's Hurricane Valley, right? Like huge amounts of hurricanes. That's not how not how humans roll like we're capable of living in many different environments including with extreme weather conditions and it's like saying i can't stop my kids from dying of tetanus right starving to death right i mean what yes right so there's no nihilistic agency no that's so nihilistic and you trace it back i mean the the best the most most articulate advocate of that view is a Marxist named Mike Davis who wrote this book called City of Courts.
It's a crazy nihilistic book, but he had an essay and also it's a chapter in that book called Let Malibu Burn. I mean, it's classic kind of radical left politics.
It's classic sort of envy or sour grapes. I mean, it's classic kind of radical left politics.

It's classic sort of envy or sour grapes. I mean, sour grapes goes, I can't remember the parable, but basically it's like some animal wants to eat these grapes, but they're up too high.
And then he says, oh, well, those grapes were sour anyway. It's a consolation for your own personal weakness and failure.
That's just, you know, let Malibu burn. I mean, you know, you have an ideology of Marxism that is based on resentment and envy.
And so then you go, well, yeah, all those rich houses should go up in flames. It's a fantasy.
I mean, it's a left-wing, I should know. I was on the radical left.
Like the fantasy, you hate the rich people because you want their wealth and you admire them in some level, but you know you can't get it. So, I mean, this is how envy works.
So, you end up constructing this whole political ideology. I mean, this is what Marx has done.
And it's infected like the citizenry. I mean, it's infected the politicians.
And so, there's this, I think that even though it's not consciously, the politicians aren't consciously saying, oh, let's let Malibu burn, that is the behaviors they have taken have had that impact. So, I think that what you're seeing in real time in these fires in Los Angeles, these destructive fires, is the manifestation of a nihilistic ideology.
It's an emergent quality. It happens through a million small steps.
But this heavy focus on left-wing ideology, whether it's DEI or ESG or climate apocalypse or just class resentment, manifests itself in like the most spectacular, beautiful neighborhoods just being turned into ashes and cinders. It's also on a more prosaic level of violation of like the most basic agreement there is between citizens and their government, which is I send you more than half of what I own, but you keep my house from burning down and methods from scaring my children or whatever.
Like you provide public safety, fire protection, you know, water, sewer, electricity, like just the basic stuff seems to be

totally ignored. Absolutely.
Why is anyone paying taxes? Why isn't there a revolution? There should

be. Well, because of course, they're all trapped by this ideology.
I mean, these are the neighborhoods

that voted overwhelmingly for Kamala, that voted overwhelmingly for Gavin Newsom, that voted

overwhelmingly for Karen Bass. I mean, Tucker, i watched folk i saw focus groups in 2022 with two latinos men and women separated latino group and a white group and the latinos were great i mean they were just like when they started talking about the mayoral race they were like well what are their positions and like what are their policies and what do they want to do and whatever they're very rational about they're very as you would hope you they were self-interested they were yeah what do i get out of this what do i get out of these care fair question the white the whites i mean it was amazing like they first of all they every focus group when the the moderator would just be like oh hey you know just how's it going around here they don't even try to lead the conversation anywhere and everybody just starts talking about the homeless situation and the crime, you know, which is basically continuous with homelessness.
And then they would be like, oh, yeah, okay, well, about the remedies. Oh, there's a mayoral race coming up.
I think it was in the, it was like in the summer, you know, that these focus groups were held in 2022. Caruso versus Bass.
Caruso versus Bass. And they hadn't really been thinking a ton about it, but there's a moment there where you see it dawns on the white focus group participants and they were not like recruiting like leftists or Democrats or anything.
It was just supposed to be a mixed group of swing voters. And they just, as soon as it dawned on them that there was a black woman running, they were like, oh, well, I mean, that's, I mean, got to vote for the black woman.
Like it was the most racist, like you would think like in the most racist moments in American history, you know, the stereotypes that we would have, you know, about the South or whatever, you know, reconstruction or something, like people would not be as open and honest about it, but they were just like openly like, well, we have to vote for the black woman. And then in the rest of the focus group, when they, a lot of them knew who Caruso was.
Because, you know, he's famous for these really spectacular, you know, housing developments. Yes.
And also they're kind of calling them malls is a kind of beautiful, like outdoor shopping centers. Yes.
With like lawns and you can get like a, you know, fantastic restaurants and you can like have the kids can play freely on these lawns i mean it's sort of tragic because of course it's all private it's not public spaces but nonetheless you feel safe you go in there it's amazing place so they didn't do that i want these white participants i was watching them through basically over like the next hour hour and a half explaining why caruso was a bad guy for just running against this black woman. Like, it was just outrageous.
And what is he trying to do? He's trying to make money. I mean, which is just crazy because, of course, he's just, you know, like, I think he's like a billionaire.
I mean, he's self-made and extraordinarily successful person. And clearly, running for mayor is an altruistic act.
So, it was just appalling. So, of have to say you know what is that i mean i've been to every big white country in the last year australia canada uk us obviously and that very specific brand of self-hatred nihilism that brain disease is everywhere it's not just here it's it's throughout the anglosphere yeah what and it's history changing and it's effects like what is that why is the white world determined to kill itself do you have any idea it's really noticeable yeah i mean there's so much in that i mean it seems like there's like multiple levels i mean at one superficial level or at least a kind of psychological sociological level they're all competing with each other to show who's a better person yeah the more i the more hatred i express towards white people the better i am as a human being destroying your own kids is like the measure of virtue oh yeah the nihilism um obviously this is a very old story about decadence and of you know comfort and you start to kind of believe i mean there's something really checked out from reality about the whole thing i mean it first of all it's um the stories that get told are just you know like absurd like 1619 being the founding of america that's just obviously wrong the country was founded you know our constitution 1789 declaration of independence 1776 and not like that but like slavery was never at the heart of the united states it was always it was a whole place committed to it was english americans or the american english as they were referred to wanting to create a country the first time that was just founded on the enlightenment ideals of freedom and of free expression i mean so important they put us the first amendment they insist on a bill of rights so you just get this completely twisted um you know disinformation story about the united states that gets embraced but yeah it's nihilism i mean but but embraced by whites at what it's aimed so it is a i mean leaving us at the fact that it's false, but, you know, a lot of creation myths are false.
But this one is false in a specific way, which is like, you suck and you should die. And all the way, it's like, yeah, you're right, I should.
Right. I mean, it's end of civilization sort of ideology, isn't it? That's it.
It's like, I don't, I've never seen anything like it. No, I mean, when you read the old.
And it is the whites, too. Oh, yeah.
No, because the Latinos, I mean, they're still. Oh, they don't, they're like, what? Yeah, they're, for sure.
They're like working, they're like more working class. They're more Christian.
They're more, they love America more. They remember where they came from.
I agree. So, yeah, I mean, it's also, yeah.
So, it's just, in some ways, it's an old story of a civilization just at its end. I mean, including all the transgenderism.
I mean, that's, you know, that's the Camille Paglia's famous writing about how that shows up at the end of civilizations. And so, you know, if you read Toynbee, it's like one of the characteristics is when the elites stop the creative class of elites, which is, I mean, Los Angeles.

They stop identifying with their own working class and they start to identify with, you know, with outsiders, basically with people from foreigners from outside the country. That's another sign of a civilization at its end.
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You alluded a minute ago to its cause being

affluence. Just generational affluence makes people...
Seems like it. It feels that way to me too.

I don't know. you alluded a minute ago to its cause being affluence just generational affluence seems like it it does it feels that way to me too i i'm not an expert i mean there's the i mean it's a cliche but i like a lot of cliches got truth to it is the you know the the good times make soft men and soft men make bad times um so i mean i there's obviously been a huge correction in the United States, which is, you know, welcome, which is a sort of re-embrace of the ideals of the United States.
Yes. I mean, let's hope that this has been a wake-up call for the people of Los Angeles.
I mean, they are reaping what they sowed, and the people of California are reaping what we sowed. And, you know, that is, you know, I mean, it's really quite symbolic, you know, it's like the neighborhoods of the elites in Los Angeles that are really, that really got the most effective that are having to flee.
And, but again, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to come on, I've been writing about it every day and trying to surface the stories of the utility, the water utility executives. And I've got a story coming out later today from a firefighter who basically just described, I mean, the firefighters, of course, the men and women on the ground doing the hard work, they're blameless.
But I mean, the destruction, there's 29 fire departments in Los Angeles, including LA County Fire Department.

You know, there's 88 cities.

People don't realize like los angeles is a city but then there's a much larger county around it with 88 cities in it and there's um and not all of them have fire departments like most of them don't right so the ones that don't have their own fire departments they depend on la county fire department but um you know and it's been this way for long time. So it's not like it can't work, but it definitely introduces a level of complexity into it.
I mean, the priorities of these fire departments, it's not just like a social media meme. I mean, it really has been DEI.
Like, it really has been the priority of these fire departments. The first priority of the fire departments should be to put out fires and keep people safe and save lives but the first priority has been dei i mean that is clearly is there evidence do we have social science that shows that lesbians are better firemen than non-lesbians i mean i mean the quinn i mean what are the chances right that like all three of these executives are i mean um you know it's like it's also sort of like i mean it's it's funny because the way that the the defenders of it sort of talk about it is as though they're imposing equality actually they're demanding that that it not be based on merit i mean there first of all there was never any evidence that the fire departments were like systematically or structurally excluding qualified people i I mean, it's not to say that

never happened. There wasn't some racism.
I mean, of course there is, but it's like,

you're getting, they got into a situation where like people are getting promoted who were not

as qualified as other people on basis of race. I mean, that is anathema to the American system.

And by the way, the people of California have now twice rejected racial preferences.

One of them in 1996, I believe, and then the other again in 20 was it 2018 they also rejected gay marriage but they're not allowed to get what they want actually it turns out because whatever you think of gay marriage or racial preferences or whatever if you believe in democracy and you have a referendum system you have to abide by the results well yeah and they haven't no they haven't i mean the spirit the spirit of cal California, I mean, there's a true spirit of California that I do think is very American, which is really egalitarianism. I mean, the American creed, if you believe Daniel Bell's analysis of it, you know, it's liberty, it's laissez-faire, it's individualism, and it's egalitarianism.
That's the state I grew up in. It was the most American of all states.
That's right. It's not equity.
It's equality of opportunity. That's what egalitarianism is.
It doesn't matter who your family was. We used to say when I was a kid, no one in California used his last name.
Now, why would that be? You know, you go back east as we called it. We'd go in the summertime.
I'd be like, hi, I'm Michael Schellenberger in California. He's like, I'm Mike.
Well, my father would always say that's because in California, it's not about the legacy of your family. It's not about caste.
It's about you. Can you do it or not? Right.
That seemed like a great system to me. It's great.
I mean, that's what I love. I mean, it's the part I love about California.
It's like, I lived on the East Coast for like a year. It was a traumatic experience.
You'd go to parties and someone would be like, oh, what school did you go to? Oh, totally. And then they'd be kind of looking over your shoulder.
And you're like, well, what? Like, who to like you know who am i exactly what are my passions and exactly so that was like i was like wow that is great like that is weird you know in california it's like what's your jam dude you know it's like really like what are you into you know it's that's like the best of it who are you as a person yeah who are you as a person it's the human you know it's like obviously they're you can get culty and whatever but i mean it is the the best of that human potential you're not held responsible for the sins of people you're related to well i and you know i come from a complicated family so i always love that idea you know you're judged on you yes choices that you make and the character that you have right your decency which is actually radical individual responsibility that's what i always thought yeah i mean. I mean, that was always, for me, it was like, you know, Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, was just incredibly a Holocaust survivor.
The whole thing was like, you know, being in a death camp shouldn't control how I think about the world. I mean, that's about as radical of a individual mentality point of view.
And now, of course, that's viewed as very right-wing and very unsympathetic and whatever. But Viktor Frankl was just loved by the existentialist California left in the 60s.
I mean, he would sell out these huge auditorium in Berkeley and they'd go to Esalen. And so, I mean, you go from that to basically nobody taking responsibility.
I mean, it's incredible. And everyone living under the crushing burden of history, most of it misconstrued in a lie anyway.
But still, the idea that the past is determining the present and the future, that's like the least Californian, least American idea ever. That's so well-spoken.
No, no, it's totally brilliantly well-spoken. Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, it's like we, in our next book, we're doing, we're working on this idea of these singularities, meaning like these just awful events in the past, the Holocaust, slavery, indigenous genocide.

and they become like gods for secular people. They become like super present.

Like, you know, there's,

it's just everything that we do is affected by slavery

and, you know, everything that,

this is indigenous land.

I mean, I was going through the,

I was just going through um the all of like various documents over the years of like water and fire and disaster in los angeles and they they like all open with land acknowledgements you know you're like well yeah be like literally you think that white people don't belong here like that is literally what you're saying those land acknowledgments you acknowledgments. You're saying, we don't belong here.
And you may have seen, there's a very, there's a clip that went viral on social media with the deputy police, the deputy fire chief of Los Angeles, where she's sort of saying, oh yeah, people ask me, you know, can you carry my husband out of a house, you know, in danger? And she's like, well, you know, your husband got himself in a place that he shouldn't have been that was her response it was like was that i saw that video and my first thought was that can't be was it was that real i know it looks like a parody it's crazy you're like yeah that's literally your job is to be able to carry someone can you imagine like someone be like oh yeah your father your elderly father um you know we couldn't carry him of the house. And he shouldn't have been in that house when it was burning down.
Or your daughter gets raped walking to school while she shouldn't have been wearing a skirt. Right.
Yeah. I mean, like, what? That's like the left campaign.
When I was in college, that was the whole don't blame the victim. That was the whole thing.
Of course, they're all. Which I would kind of agree with, by the way.
I mean, you should be able to look attractive and not get raped. Of course.
You should be allowed to be old and immobile and not die in a fire like what are we even saying that's civilization it's civilization yeah exactly yeah what's the point of civilization the point of civilization is to protect the vulnerable right to make it possible for people to reproduce and continue right to make it possible for you to have kids and your kids to have kids like there's no reason to have it have it other than that. At the most basic level.
Yes. And so I don't understand, like, how could she say something like that and not get fired or arrested? She should have been fired as soon as that came out.
I mean, and Gavin Newsom should have called for her to be fired. The mayor should have called for her to be fired.
She's still in that job. I mean, that's dangerous.
Like, it's a violation of firefighter ethics. That person is a danger.
danger in other words she's going around suggesting to all of her people that work for her that they're not responsible for saving but i think it reflects the mentality which is a nihilistic mentality which is that we don't belong here you know we stole we stole this land and so you so and this is this you know, let Malibu burn. I mean, it is definitely, definitionally nihilism.
I mean, it's anti-civilization nihilism. You know, there's sort of two forms of nihilism.
One of them is basically anti-civilization, anti-human, anti, you know, modern life. And it stems from this earlier nihilism, which is that life has no meaning.
We're just

like animals in the famous Russian novel, Fathers and Sons by Turgarev. You know, the nihilistic character dissects a frog and says, we're just like this frog.
You know, we're just matter. You know, we're just dead matter, just disassembled.
So, it's a very dark nihilistic story that then leads to this just, yeah, nihilistic anti-civilization ideology, which became very fashionable. I mean, City of Courts, the Mike Davis book, I mean, it was a very fashionable book to read in places like Pacific Palisades and Hollywood and Santa Monica and Venice.
So, yeah, I think it's, you know I hope it's a wake up call. I don't know if it will be.
But it is a completely preventable disaster. Fires are definitely not completely preventable.
But that level of destruction absolutely is. And anybody who says that it's that it is not preventable should be as far away from power as possible like anybody who believes that it was inevitable to lose 10 000 uh homes and buildings in los angeles over a week they should not be in they should be very far away from political power they should not be in charge of any fire department um because it ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy so i've taken you right to 50 000 feet the future of the whites and all this stuff um which i'm grateful that you addressed uh but just back to the and i'm i'm sorry for digressing so much back to the first question how did this start you gave a great explanation did climate change play a role did was this caused by climate change no it's not caused by climate change mean, certainly warmer weathers, all else being equal, makes the wood, you know, drier.
But there is no change in precipitation. Since 1877, they've kept very good records of rainfall, annual rainfall, in the Los Angeles basin, and it's unchanged.
Really? I know, it it's incredible there's wet years and dry years

you know you look at it i just posted on x it's just people can go look at it it's from

the almanac um no change in precipitation at all in los angeles um there have been santa anna winds

in january many times in the past there have been uh you know and by the way like we this we this

is a dry year now but the last two years were very heavy rains too heavy yeah so mudslide heavy yeah and so um you know we're it's extremes i mean it's what you know that's why california is so beautiful it's a place of extremes and so we you know we adapt to that i mean you know like but there's been no in the aggregate change in rainfall in 140 years no absolutely not not not yeah no why are they it's actually a remarkably stable climate well it isn't i mean anyone who's lived there can tell you that's that's its appeal yeah it is a pretty stable climate actually yeah i mean it's stable climate with these amazing extremes so like you know just get these, you'll just get these, I mean, the best, I mean, for my favorite weather is like after like, you know, three days of just intense rains and you're just like trying to make sure that your house isn't flooded and, you know, the mud's everywhere. It's just the dogs are bringing in mud.
and then the sun comes out and it's just heaven on earth i mean that's why we're in california

right you're just like ah so we love those we love those extremes um yeah i mean i think that's

part of the i mean it's why we're in california right you're just like ah so we love those we love those extremes um yeah i mean i think that's part of the i mean it's so funny because it's like it you the reversion back to these you know people are cursing the weather you know they're blaming the weather that's why we do human sacrifice yeah um yeah exactly well another one was uh literally just before i got here the legislature got to its very important work of passing a bill just now that sets aside $50 million for California to sue Trump. Like literally, and they were in a special session that they kept going.
They were in a special session to figure out how to sue Trump while LA is burning. And meanwhile, Gavin's going out there all the time being like, oh, well, boy, it'd be really terrible if, you know, if Trump, you know, withheld disaster aid or, heaven forbid, you know, required that we, you know, get our shit together.
I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say in your podcast. Get our things together.
And then, like, literally, he's like, we're going to sue him for implementing the agenda he was elected on by a majority of the american so it's just an msnbc agenda it's just a silly rich white liberal agenda and i will say i've thought for 20 years that california will only be saved by like naive bukele type figure some authoritarian latino in a cape is going to show up and just impose order on the state and i'm not i'm not being i am white i'm not against whites i love whites my children are white but that the fact is they can't do it in that state gavin newsom can't do it the burden of guilt and self-hatred is too heavy and you're going to get some guy from oaxaca who's smart is going to be like we're not putting up any of this bullshit at all and no you can't camp in la no you can't do meth in LA and yes we are going to have like full reservoir I mean do you know what I mean it would be amazing if we had that we I mean there was there was sort of an idea that Karen Bass because she was black and because she came from the left would be able to do things that a white guy wouldn't be able to do that was part of the the reasoning for her she didn't do it I mean she's just I mean look she's very people have to remember she's very radical i mean and i get it i mean it was like i was there i left it but um you know she went to cuba a bunch of times and you know like admired castro and um you kind of thought well maybe that was behind her but it's not you know it really isn't i mean this the thing where like you're like literally get a warning that the whole city's gonna go up in flames and you're like oh i really gotta be in ghana for the inauguration of the new president i mean look at where your head's at i mean she she talks about she just loves going to africa all the time i love going to africa but i do too you're like you're like the mayor of like just silly and selfish really it's really narcissistic it's it's really vapid so it's not good to have people kiss your ass your whole life and tell you i mean that is just bad it's if it it happens to me, it's bad for me. It's bad for anybody.
And if some people are always being like, you've got black girl magic. Like after a while.
No, I'm serious because there is no black girl magic. There's no white man magic.
It's all bullshit, actually. But if you start to believe it, having people kiss your ass, having had many people kiss my ass, I know, corrodes your soul.
It makes you into a bad leader. And I leader and i really think that's part of we're seeing it not just in la but like the black girl magic thing has been bad for a lot of people you know what i mean oh yeah as the white man magic would be too yeah of course yeah i mean then she gets i mean they so the other thing was she did cut the fire department budget okay she just cut it i mean she just it just happened and then They denying it i know so she literally goes up at a press conference and it was word salad i mean it was quite impressive i mean she was just sort of like like you were like what did she just say i mean she's kind of she goes she goes well that was you know it would kind of be like well that was different because we just approved this other money and she would basically just was a non sequitur i mean she's describing a totally different salary negotiation they cut 17.5 million from the budget and not only that but then they had this internal memo that leaked that said they were looking to cut another 48.8 million another 49 million from the fire from the fire from the fire department which had already was already decimated um i mean there's a whole story in this it's's like famous for fires.
No, it's crazy. So they do that.
And of course, the LA Times and Politico and I can't remember other people, they all come out and they go, did she cut the budget? You know, it's complicated. You know? I mean, it's amazing.
It's complicated, which is like, yeah she did cut she did cut the budget but nobody the media was not being honest with people about what was really going on until the fire chief the lesbians la county fire chief to her credit um she was being actually she was being grilled by a local fox television reporter who was just doing a great job actually actually. I mean, just to be handed to the local TV, actually.
Some of the best reporting still. Only in L.A.
L.A. has always had great local television.
I don't know why. No, I think I agree with you.
Yeah. It's fallen off in the Bay Area.
They did a little bit better in Oakland when things get really crazy. But she just kept going after her.
She just kept asking her over and over again about the budget cuts. And she was kind of having a high five.
She was just like, yeah, yeah, she did. She cut that money.
And she's like, and did it matter? Yeah, yeah, it mattered. She had sent a letter.
I mean, there was a letter from, I think it was December 4th that the fire chief had sent, which said specifically, this is going to reduce our ability to deal with wildfires. She said it twice.
Yes, she said it twice in the letter. So it was a little bit like, okay, you were on the record saying it was going to hurt your ability.
So, but then she was like, yes, yes, it did hurt our ability to deal with it. Then she just was like, I think at that point, the fire chief, she was just like, all right, you know, like the gloves are off.
So she goes on CBS and on cnn and reiterates it and with very strong language ice was able to get into this piece that will come out um uh shortly i was able to get into the weeds a little bit on it but basically there's a hundred fire trucks that are currently um uh in the maintenance shop that are just need to be fixed. There's 100 fire trucks missing.

The person I interviewed was like,

we could have bought

for $100 million,

we could have bought

like 100 or 200

kind of used fire trucks

or whatever,

just get fire trucks from wherever,

maintain them,

and just put them

in different points all around the city. You wouldn't necessarily have the staff to deal with them, but you could then, as soon as you get that fire warning, again, on January 1st or January 2nd, you can just fly in firefighters from around the country, from around the world.
You'd just be like, look, we're just going to bring everybody in. We don't know what's going to happen.
And then they can just go, he was, this person was like, you know, we could put could put like 30 of them at dodger stadium you know you could just like put these fire trucks that are well maintained you know but so she was like because i didn't quite understand it either because she was like we didn't have the money for the mechanics and you're like well why do you like what do you need the mechanics for well you need the mechanics to maintain the fire engines right so i mean this is what you know it's like when civilization down, it breaks down in like just a million small ways, you know. So, you know, is there some DEI part of it? Yeah, there was, they were promoting people not based on merit.
Is there budget cuts? Absolutely. I mean, they didn't, you know, and what goes wrong when you don't have those budget cuts? Everything.
You know, I mean, the other complaint I've heard heard you know is just that it's just the the

advanced thinking it's just getting people that can kind of be thinking in advance that's where

their focus is that's where their priority is so the d the problem with the dei is that when you're

just orienting an entire organizational culture towards racial and sex quotas rather than towards

okay you know what about the santa anna wins and the fire risk and whatever it's just we all know

that like it's it's not just time in the day it's also mind time it's like what do you think about when you take a shower what do you think about when you're putting on your shoes like where is your head at their head has been in the clouds around you know dei the larger society esg climate homelessness i mean i mean the list goes on and on but the the it was on homelessness. We now know, because the state audit came out, $24 billion on homelessness since Gavin took office in 2019.
Tucker, homelessness in California increased by 40% under Gavin. Can you believe that? I mean, 40 so because everyone goes it's such a curious it's such a curious mystery as to we spent all this money on homelessness and yet it just increased it's like well yeah because you spent money incentivizing and subsidizing homelessness you spent all this money to attract people from all over the united states i I mean, I interview people in California that are on the streets,

and it's like nobody's from California.

I mean, they come in.

The only reason I feel like I have any understanding of what homelessness is

is because the interviews that you did several years ago,

which are the most unbelievable.

I'd never heard of you before I saw these interviews,

and you did, and I would recommend to our listeners to go find them

because they're on YouTube.

You did the thing that nobody, I've never seen anybody do it before.

Others have followed since.

You did it, but you just went

and you interviewed the homeless.

They're like, what are you doing here?

Tell me your story.

And they were remarkably honest.

Oh, they want to be.

See, the thing is like homeless people,

they're always lonely, you know?

And so they're,

obviously these are people in a really bad way

and they're eager to tell their story.

They have a lot to say.

They're not, most of them are not dumb.

Some of them are not dumb at all. I was shocked by it shocked by oh no and they do lie like at the beginning so i mean you have to um the secret to all great interviews as you know more than anybody is is you need to have a long time yes because people tell the they lie at first and then the truth comes out so like you'll interview people and you'll be like you're like where you from brother and they'll be? And they'll be like, oh, I was raised here.
And then you get like 30 minutes in the interview. They're like, oh, I'm from Arkansas.
You know, I'm from Texas or whatever. So yeah, I mean, so yeah, they're from all over.
They came, they come, you know, the most famous one I did was with James Church. He had tattoos on his face and he was just incredible.
I just love that interview so much. I think it was like, it's not like an hour, hour and a half with him, just holding my iPhone up to him while he's talking.
But he was the one who was like, you know, if I'm being honest, you know, they pay people to be homeless here. And I was like, I was like, what do you mean by that? You know, he's like, well, he's like, I get 650 bucks a month, you know, in cash welfare to be homeless here, plus a couple of hundred bucks more in food stamps.
It's a great deal. And he was like, I got Netflix on my phone.
I watch Amazon, you know, I watch Amazon Prime TV on my phone. You know, I still electric city from the, from the, the, the light pole right here.
That video, I will say it's very satisfying. I do think that played a pretty big role in the voters of San Francisco voting to get rid of cash welfare for homeless people.
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Hi, this is Debbie, your Blinds.com design consultant. Oh, wow, a real person.
Yep, I am here to help you with everything, from selecting the perfect window treatments to... Well, I've got a complicated project.
Oh, not a problem. I can even schedule a professional measure and install.
We can also send you samples, fast and free. Hmm, I just might have to do more.
Oh, okay. So the first room we're looking at is for guests.
Shop Blinds.com now and get up to you to do that? It's, well, it's because, well, we know why. I mean, because it's.
Because you weren't a reporter. You weren't working for a newspaper or a TV station.
No. I mean, look, it's, for me, this is the golden age of journalism.
It is so much fun.

Because basically, I can go into

every story

and you discover

that people aren't really doing reporting.

I showed up at the guy, I showed

up at the house that the guy lived in, the guy that assaulted

Nancy Pelosi's husband. Yes.

Just to give you a sense of where journalism is at.

And I show up and I'm like, I'm

just happy to be there. And there's all these journalists there.

There's like a bunch of like local TV

news and like the local print period or whatever.

and I'll see, I'm just happy to be there. And there's all these journalists there.

There's like a bunch of like local TV news and like the local print paper or whatever.

And I was like, I just kind of like,

oh, hey, what's the call?

He lived out in Berkeley, right?

Yeah, he's in Berkeley.

Yeah.

Black Lives Matter flag and fire.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, abandoned school bus.

They were really,

it was a really terrible environment.

But, and I was like, oh, I was like,

so I was like, have you guys already, I was kind of like worried. I was like, oh, I got here late.
And I was like, so you guys already like knocked on all the doors of the neighbors. And they were just like, looked at me and they were like, no, we're like not, we're, I can't remember one of them said, he was like, oh, we don't want to be like rude or something.
Or that would be like inappropriate. I was like, I was like, and at that moment I was like, oh, God, this is going to be great.
And I just like went and knocked on all the doors the doors and like you had all the information like oh yeah they would around naked out there and they would be on drugs all the time and yeah they were like all left-wing and it was like black you know i was like oh this is amazing like there's no competition like it's you know i got on the i got on the white house briefing just recently um the white house briefing on uaps which you and i um are both interested in on the drones um and it was just like you can kind of go into these stories you just start talking to people and you just realize journalists aren't really they're not really journalists they're more like kind of the people that would run for like class president or something they're kind of goody two-shoes yeah they're actually very authoritarian i mean they're the ones that wanted all the censorship of course so they're not that old picture of journalists is like this kind of cantankerous and like you know crabby and um they got rid of all those people anti-authoritarian anti-authoritarian um yeah difficult people i'm the son of one of those yeah yeah i grew around classic right that's like the greatest i mean there like, and you realize it's essential to the functioning of civilization to have a bunch of disagreeable people running around asking impertinent questions. So, with this one, it was like, yeah.
So, I mean, you basically get, like, when you just look at the coverage of the fires, I mean, it was like the reporters that are going out and doing it, it's like their whole thing is like, oh, we've got to make sure that the right wing doesn't take advantage of this situation to push their like literally that's how they think about it so they're out there running cover for the poll i mean it's amazing you know somebody did like a little meme on it but it's like that thing where it's like yeah it used to be that the reporter would like be holding the microphone up to the politicians and being like answer my questions and now they're like demanding that the people defend themselves for their terrible votes you know it's like a complete reversal true well they're the praetorian guard for the powerful yeah yeah so but one of the things i learned from your interviews with the homeless which i just cannot recommend strongly enough as a primary source of information actual information um is the degree to which the narcotics fuel

homelessness. So, you can't really disaggregate homelessness from drug addiction.
No, of course. I mean, it's really- I mean, you say of course, but like- No, I know.
Well, no, I know. I wrote San Francisco because it was literally like, because I knew drugs.
Like, you know- Me too. I know drugs.
You know, I made three friends from high school that became homeless addicts. Two are dead.
It's like, you know, I'm, you know, I happily avoided personally all the hard ones. But you saw your friends, like, you know, you'd leave.
You go, wow, you guys are doing meth. You know, it's like, meth's bad, guys.
What town did you go to high school in? Gareli, Colorado. Yep.
You know? So, you know, my parents were psychologists. I remember just being around.
My aunt had schizophrenia, you know. I've told the story a long time, so I don't want to bore you.
But basically, it was like, it was just kind of like, so wait, everyone just thinks that this is like a housing problem. Like, that's just crazy.
so you know you sort of needed to i needed to go do all those interviews but i mean really the first homelessness epidemic the first time that we're modern homelessness was in the early 80s

and it was just it was basically all it was was a combination of the emptying the final closure of all the mental hospitals where they literally, literally dumped people on the streets. Like I thought that that was that sounded like an exaggeration when I first started.
They literally were putting, you know, schizophrenics and stuff on the streets. And then the crack epidemic.
Like that that's all it was. It was just those two things.
And then, of course, then, you know, left-wing mayor of San Francisco and others are like, oh, well, we can't, like, we can't, like, require that people not camp outside. They're poor.
The left, in reaction to Reagan, then took up homelessness as something that they claimed was caused by Reagan. Like, I mean, he'd been in office for, like, whatever, two or three or three years and they would just make ridiculous claims you know the reagan budget you know that's why he's on the street yeah so it really gets used so it becomes viewed by the left early on as a political propaganda tool i also blame the comics by the way i mean and just i'll name them robin williams billy crystal whoi Goldberg.
They did this whole thing, you may remember, Comic Relief.

Yeah.

Where they framed the whole thing as a problem of poverty, which is just, you know, it's just such a disservice to the people on the street who need an intervention. Right.
There's a natural, like for addicts, there's a natural progression where you, you know, whether from trauma or just because you enjoyed getting high, your addiction gets in the way of your job and you stop going to work. And you often, you know, live at home with your parents or with friends.
You lie, steal, and cheat from them repeatedly. They give you multiple warnings.
They finally kick you out. That's often the route to homelessness.
You end up on the street. That's the moment where the society, the family and friends were not able to impose an intervention.
So the way it should work is that you end up, you go out camp on the street and the cop goes, hey, you can't camp here. It's illegal to camp here.
And they go, what am I supposed to do? And they're like, well, we're going to take you to jail or you can go to rehab. Like those are your two choices, two choices.
And natural intervention is imposed in that situation. What progressives and Democrats did for 40 years is they just removed the intervention in the name of compassion.
The most compassion I think is to impose the intervention. I mean, the thing that's most common, I'll even find this with like harm reduction workers.
I was just with some harm reduction workers skid row and and one of them was telling me the whole usual thing oh you can't make somebody get clean they have to hit their own bottom like whatever and i was like and they were like i used to run around here you know on on meth it was a um an asian american woman um who was doing this and i was like i Oh wow. I was like, what did it finally take you for you to get clean?

She was like,

well,

I went to prison.

Yeah.

You know,

it's like,

well,

right.

So I have a really close friend you had,

who's lived that same trajectory.

I have a couple of friends,

but a very,

I have a legit close friend who's totally out of control on drugs and lost kids and all the things that happen when you're addicted and got sober in prison and rebuilt a life.

A wonderful life.

Yes.

But yeah.

And they're like the,

by the way,

the recovering addicts are like the

I'm going to go. and got sober in prison and rebuilt a life um a wonderful life yes but yeah and they're like the by the way the recovering addicts are like the greatest people i mean they're my favorite people they're the funniest most honest yes um people they have an equanimity about them i go to aa meetings when i can not because i'm in danger of partying again i'm not after 22 years but because because I like the people because they're so honest and they're honest about the one thing

no one's ever honest about,

which is themselves.

It's super easy to be honest about you.

I don't like your sweater, Mike.

That's disgusting.

Like, that's not hard.

You've gained weight.

That's not hard.

I've gained weight.

I'm wearing an ugly sweater.

Those are hard.

And you find among those people,

the recovered people,

like a true honesty about themselves. It's like the greatest church greatest church service there is right because they're all born again in an important sense they've all died in some way yeah no i so that's the but to deprive people of that yes to encourage them to continue to use drugs and alcohol is like i mean don't even, whatever, it's an interview of you, not me.

But I just feel like sobriety has to be the goal, not just for the individual, but for the society.

I really believe that.

So sobriety is the greatest gift, A.

B, use of drugs and alcohol causes mental illness, which nobody ever says out loud.

I've seen it, to some extent experienced it.

I know you can cause severe mental illness by using drugs and alcohol. alcohol like right is that even controversial it shouldn't be no that's right i mean you've done more on this than i have much more but it's sort of coming back a little bit people talk about meth-induced psychosis now more but um yeah it's uh it's really psychosis oh and the weed now, it's just so potent and dangerous.

And yeah.

So, but you, as someone who still lives in California, does anybody, do you ever hear people say that?

Like, why are we paying people to use drugs?

Like, should it surprise us that things are falling apart?

I mean, I do think that the conversation has changed a bit.

I'll take some credit for it with San Francisco and the videos in particular.

But yeah, it's just still that thing where it's like they kind of go but yeah but there's a black woman running for mayor and it just it's like the singularity it's like when I always say that it's like this just it's just hovering over people and of course it's a race thing yeah it's really it's really about race in a really important sense I know and then the guilt it's like the dealers are all immigrants from Central America. We can't do anything about it.
Right. Oh, sanctuary state, sanctuary city.
That's part of what they're going to sue on. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's just, yeah, it's a big trap.
I mean, I think that it's funny because we're a guilt culture. And so, like Japan's a shame culture.
Yes. And guilt is this incredibly important part of the Christian tradition.
Yes. Well, you know, like, you know, Japan's a shame culture.
Yes. And, you know, guilt is this incredibly important part of the Christian tradition.
Yes. Well, you stop believing in original sin and you stop believing in Christianity.
You still, apparently, there's still this deep desire to feel that guilt and to sort of show it as well. In other words, it is a social part of it.
People wanted to see in that focus, they wanted other people to see in that focus group that they felt guilty. You know, it was very important to them.
But what's interesting is, so in, you know, traditional Christianity and other religions, you know, the guilty person repents, atones, dons ashes, sackcloth, and covers himself in ashes as a way of saying, you know, I am worthy degradation yes but we've kind of transferred that it's almost like the homeless are in sackcloth and ashes do you know what i mean like i live in the palisades i produce music videos i'm doing pretty well but i still feel guilt so but like seeing somebody like you know writhing on the sidewalk i'm like displacing my atonement that's really Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah.
He's, well, then they talk about it that way. Even when you talk to the activists that justify it, they're like, well, that's a, you know, those people are suffering because of capitalism.
Exactly. And, you know, slavery and white supremacy.
But the whole point of Christianity is, no, no, you suffer. You.
Right. Like confess your sin.
You don't like put it off on some junkie. Right.
Well, it's the part of it that's just really satanic. I mean, not to be theological about it, but it's just a complete reversal of the traditional Christian process.
It's just, yeah, it's exactly. It's making other people.
Atone for your sins. Yeah, it's crazy.
It's unbelievable. It's so bad.
And they're sort of on display. display, you know, it's the it's the it's really if you kind of read it, I mean, it's like they want it to be on display.
They want to sort of show it. And that's why they insist that they not be arrested or mandated treatment.
It's wild. It is like, you know, like you go to Skid Row and it's still like a hieronymus bach is it yes

you know it's just like you just can't you still can't believe it i mean you still can't believe

there's a person lying there um you know sweating profusely passed out you can't tell if they're

alive or dead you don't know like do i do an intervention and it's just it's it's really

breaking down these are human beings i don't know that's and i'm not a particularly compassionate

or kind person i'm kind of a dick actually but even i like whenever i see that i feel such deep

I'm sorry. breaking down these are human beings i don't know that's and i'm not a particularly compassionate or kind person i'm kind of a dick actually but even i like whenever i see that i feel such deep sadness oh yeah person it's like heartbreaking like of course don't allow if that was my child would i allow it not for one second i would take that child no him to the fucking radiator until he got better i would not allow that my child it's the way.
Absolutely it is. Absolutely it is.
Those are the people that end up getting off the street. You raise the bottom instead of lowering the bottom.
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Okay, so there are in LA County, 78? How many fire departments? Well, there's 88 cities and there's 29 fire departments and counting the county. No, no, no, that's fine.
But yeah, so like literally, like once the fire starts, I didn't even understand this until I started investigating it. The county fire chief has to call all these cities and be like, hey, can you send a couple of trucks? We're putting together a strike team.
Can you send some engines or whatever? And they have to call around and they're like, okay, we're all going to meet. The fire's like blazing away.
and they're like, okay, well, we're putting together a strike team you know can you send some engines or whatever and they have to call around and they're like okay we're all gonna meet you know the fire's like blazing away and they're like okay well we're all gonna meet you know wherever you know Sepulveda or whatever the streets are in LA um you know we'll meet in this place and we'll get together and we'll sync the radios and we'll develop a plan I mean this is all happening like while the city's burning I mean it's it's madness, right? The other thing is that it's, I mean, there's like. So they didn't have any preparation for this? There's nothing, man.
I mean, there might have been something that we, but obviously if there was, it wasn't enough. Right.
I mean, it's a little bit like when they go, when the people that are like, when the nihilists are defending what happened, they're like, well, there was nothing else we could have done or we did everything we could have.'s like well no obviously you didn't like it doesn't matter what it is it obviously was there's only one right answer which is that you didn't do enough you know the the the fatalism you know it's a um it's a way to disavow responsibility on the one hand again i think it expresses that nihilism but i think it's like people just have been out of practice but you have to this is part of the journalism too you know it's that you kind of it has to be like no no we're not accepting that as an answer like the right attitude for the journalist is to basically be no excuses it makes for like i mean maybe the journalists are being too much of a hard ass and too much of a dick about it. Maybe they need to be a little bit, whatever.
That's fine. That's their role.
It's like, your role is to be the prosecutor against the, on the case of the failure. Of course.
Your role is to be the investigator. You're the public defender.
Yeah, the public defender or the prosecutor or the police, you know. But your point is to be like, oh, no, that can't be right.
Because when they go, well, we ran out of water. Well, why'd you run out of water? Well, there wasn't enough water.
No, well, why wasn't it? Well, because actually, it turned out one of the reservoirs didn't have any water. It's your job to make sure there's enough water.
You know, I mean, and this is what they do when they go after Trump and stuff. Is that like, because Trump will often be like directionally correct.
You know, like, oh, but Trump was referring to the wrong kind of reservoir. You know, the other reservoirs were full.
It's like, okay, fine, but the reservoir right next to the Pacific Palisades was empty. So, you know, the basic intuition, which is, I think, I often talk about the importance of, you know, like, if you're defending civilization, it's a physical thing, right? So, I'm always thinking to myself as like, like, there's a physicalism in my worldview.
I totally agree. I totally agree.
Okay, that's a physical thing, right? So I'm always thinking to myself as like, like there's a physicalism in my worldview, which is like, okay, that's a person, that's a body, you need to, they need to, they're in somewhere they shouldn't be. They need to be somewhere else.
So we can have a debate about how to move them somewhere else. That's a totally reasonable debate to have, but they can't be there.
They can't be there because they're creating fires, they're breaking the law, they're hurting themselves and others. Similarly, there wasn't water there.
There needed to be more water. And if you go, okay, well, let's say that they had all the reservoirs, the potable water reservoirs.
Let's say they had all been full and they'd still run out of water. Well, then there was some other problem you needed to solve.
Maybe you needed more reservoirs or maybe you needed the preparation there. So you there so you just have to have i mean you know the bukele type that we that you'd want to see or somebody you just have to set something that's just like literally you can't no excuses all the way down the line say there's if i i feel like you're on something super important if you could flesh it out you say there's a physicalism to your worldview yeah contrast that with the worldview currently in power oh well this is yeah, this, yeah, this is exactly, it's like, first of all, it's like, I mean, it's just so symbolic.
It's the city of angels, you know? So, it's like, we're up here, and you want, like, the wealthier you get in LA, and I guess, with some exceptions, like Venice Beach, but mostly you're getting up higher. Oh, yeah.
You're getting up, up, up, up, up. You're trying to get away from- To the cliffs of Malibu.
Yeah, and you end up in the heavens, and talk about i live in a little tree house i mean i get it i love it it's like i live in the burglary hills i'm not like you know but it's like i'm you know i'm above all that i'm away from all that like i'm connected to nature up here but also you know away from all the you know the plebs and so you actually i think they do it's that whole thing we talk about bubble, you know, I mean, it's like the most bubbly place in the world, except for that it's not, and you're in a massive fire zone that must be constantly managed. There's consequences of living in these spectacular places, but you've got people that are, it's the whole industry is a fantasy industry.
I mean, it just exists to construct a fantasy reality. And yeah, you would hope that people would be able to compartmentalize.
Yeah, my day job is constructing fantasies that we charge $20 to stream. But I know that when I go home, that all the brush has to be cleared around my house.
And I have to vote for candidates that are physicalists. Physicalists? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's the right word.
There's something there. You're onto something so important.
They're fantasists. I mean, the other people.
I mean, I don't want to use the word idealist because there's too many other connotations to it, but it's just a difference between being your heads up in also, and then as opposed to just being really, you need the firefighter view of the world. You need the cop view of the world.
Frankly, you need the homeless guys. The homeless people like live in a, I mean, they're high a lot.
So they're switching in and out, but they have to get their physical needs met. You know, there's just a, yeah.
So it's, um. When we first had kids, I remember my wife being wife being and i had much lower standards but insistent on the house being clean and orderly and i remember saying like it doesn't you know the point of having kids is to instill values in them she was yeah but one of the values is like ordering cleanliness and like right they will feel like things are out of control if the house isn't clean and orderly and she's really insistent on that and we've lived that way our whole lives and i it's a version of what you're saying it's like you can tell your kids about honesty and decency and compassion and high achievement or whatever but like someone has to make the bed and vacuum the floor and if there's dog shit in the kitchen like it has to be cleaned up right like that's she understood that right and has imposed it to great effect i would say i'm sure no i think that's right and also like parents we all i did it too so i'm not like judging but like we talk too much to the kids talk talk talk talk talk talk talk and you see like new parents doing talking to their kid and the kid's like what it's like the peanuts is right like the whole what they hear is the wah wah wah as wah-wah.
It's so true. As opposed to, like, could you set the table? Right.
You know? Could you, you know, like, the kids like, I mean, the kids like to have a job. They want to have a chore.
Chores are super, like, kids love that. You know? And so, you know, you're teaching the kids to clean the classroom every morning.
I mean, the problem is the specialization and the wealth.

They sort of get disconnected from it. We talk too much to the kids.

Do you know what I mean, though?

That's why I'm laughing.

And dogs, too.

People deal with their dogs.

You ever see people with like, they're like, you know, whatever.

I live in the Berkeley Hills.

It's like, you know, older ladies and their dogs.

And they're just like saying, blah, blah, blah, blah, the dogs.

It's like, well, you're not holding the leash tight enough, lady.

You know?

You rewarded the dog when he did something bad. You should have rewarded it when it came to you.
Anyway. So, all these things break down.
It's so deep and true. You just said you're a physicalist.
I want that to become an intercommon usage because I think that is really, really important. Yeah.
I think it's because people like people say things like practical which is good and pragmatic but some pragmatic got started to mean things like making shitty political compromises do you know what i mean or it's an american linguistic tradition or philosophical tradition but yeah physicalist it's like yeah somebody's got to clean up all the you know if you have all the homeless people you're gonna have to spend millions of dollars on cleaning up crap right all the time and you know the the homeless one of the things you probably have observed is that i think it's a like probably a compensating mechanism but they're just they're obsessed with collecting tons and tons of garbage yes yes so they'll you know you'll clean up these homeless encampments and you'll be like oh wow like minimalists. No, no, they're not living the Zen lifestyle.

It's not a banging Olfsen life.

It's like very much.

No, no, it's very cluttered.

Yes.

You know?

And so, they're probably over.

But so, yeah, I mean, they need,

you need to, we need to reimpose some limits.

You know, there's a, I'm also,

I just became really obsessed with the scholar

I just discovered who wrote a trilogy on nationalism

named Leah Greenfeld.

Highly recommend her books. Her first book is called is called nationalism second book is called spirit of capitalism and the third book is called mind madness and modernity and these books are just incredible but basically le a it's actually l-i-a-h and then greenfeld um common spelling yeah l-i-a-h l-A-H, yeah.
She's a Russian, I think she's a Russian Jew who went to Israel, lived in Israel for a long time. And then her mentor was Edward Schills, the sociologist.
So, she's a sociologist. But the nationalism book is beautiful.
I mean, it's like, the famous book on nationalism is called Imaginary Communities by Benedict Anderson, and he's a Marxist, and so, it's all the whole thing is like him trying to explain how nationalism, why it's so powerful when Marx thought it should wither away. But she describes, so, she defines nationalism, the picture that people have of nationalism is completely wrong.
She describes nationalism as a sovereign community of fundamentally equal individuals who have a shared identity. And so, she's like, nationalism is fundamentally democratic.
Now, you might have some systems that are nationalist, but they don't have proper democracy. But really, the basic idea is that egalitarian idea that we're Americans, we live here, we have the same solidarity.
I i've also become i'll come back to the greenfield but i've also been obsessed with hannah arent who i had never read until recently and she i don't think you're allowed to read her anymore and well i know well she was canceled i know i discovered she was canceled i love hannah arent so i but i didn't realize just like freud who was also a huge figure in my childhood everyone talked talked about Freud, alluded to Freud, and then he just kind of disappeared one day. And Hannah Arendt, same thing.
Oh, yeah. Totally canceled, but it's brilliant.
Yeah. She's too honest.
Well, yeah, yeah. She was very, well, it's really in, I read her two books.
One is the Onto Totalitarianism book, and the other one is Eichmann in Jerusalem. Eichmann in Jerusalem, it's rough because she describes how the jewish council is rough participated oh i know nazis i mean that was what was really controversial um but what what really blew me away from reading um hannah arendt because i was coming to the nationalism conversation i mean i should i self-confession because i should have been reading nationalism starting in 2016 but um but you know i But, you know, I finally was reading on it, and it was like, she was like, nationalism is a barrier to totalitarianism, because totalitarianism is attempting to destroy all relationships between people other than the relationship with the state.
Exactly. And so, religion, nationalism, you know, the classic de Tocqueville associative ties.
You know, all of that is a threat to totalitarianism yeah and um so that would really struck me and and lia greenfield kind of she has a i just interviewed us she has like a difference of opinion with um with um a rent on this issue but but nonetheless i was just struck by how i don't know what the right i must I must like, like for me, like nationalism, because I come from the left, you know, from the radical left. And we would code our socialist yearnings as the public interest.
Yes, of course. You know, Ralph Nader kind of took all of the Chomskyan left-wing views of the early 60s and packaged them for moderate.
He kind of made it all seem very reasonable, you know um and the environmentalists did the same thing so so the brilliance of the left in general but the radical left in particular was of just cross-dressing as mainstream issues exactly so um so so it became so really what is a socialist movement became a consumer rights exactly public interest the women's rights movement yep and you get these really radical ideologies i mean i'm just obsessed with this um the ways in which like so marxism look back on i was like wow i can't believe the things i believed in marxism has this idea that the capitalists like what's distinct about them is that they're just super greedy and they're thieves and that they're stealing from their workers. And there's really no difference between the entrepreneur, the capitalist entrepreneur, like Elon Musk or Thomas Edison or Henry Ford and their workers.
They're just meaner and they steal from them. And it's like, it's just an amazingly audacious lie because whenever you go and actually study an entrepreneur, what's incredible is that it's not just that they are doing, it's not like they're the best at what they're doing.
They're the best at like 12 different things. You may remember when Trump and Elon were beginning their bromance, Trump goes, he goes, you know, I asked Elon, I was like, what is that you're really good at? You know, you can see it was like probably a question that Trump is used to asking people that he interviews for a job or something and he goes turned out it was a lot of different things you know and it's like well yeah like i mean because of course like with thomas edison told oh we invent the light bulb he didn't invent the light bulb um he improved it he invented a viable economic model for electricity production i mean he invented the electrical grid he found the customers i mean one of the things that impresses me so much with Elon is like, I'll see him, you'll see him out there and he'll be selling, you know, which is kind of, I mean, selling is sort of the worst part of our jobs in some ways.
I mean, you can do it with pleasure and you can do it with Verve and stuff, but, you know, you're kind of like, and I do it. I mean, I'm always like, subscribe now, you know, and you're like, you have to do it.
Like, it's part of the work. But I'm always like, wow, Elon, he's the richest man in the world.
He's probably, he may be the greatest innovator in American history, certainly top three. And he's still out there having to hawk his products.
And he does it great. He's an amazing job of it.
One of the innovations was, you know, he just become the biggest user of twitter rather than buying paid ads but so this gigantic lie from marx which is that the the first of all the entrepreneur the capitalist is is just a meaner version of the worker as opposed to this gene you know this schumpeterian genius um and schumpeter comes along and then his the other thing the big lie and then schumpeter points it out is that the owner of the company and the workers have the same fundamental interest in other words Elon Musk's employees and Elon have the same interest they want to expand their markets they want to expand their products so to put them opposed is just so it's just it's so dishonest and it's so reminiscent what, you can say feminism or radical feminism, but this idea that the interests of women are opposed by men, that women and men have different interests. And of course, you trace it back, it all goes back to Simone de Beauvoir, who's a Marxist writing in the post-war period.
I guess it was like the 40s. Her book came out, The Second Sex.
But she's just taking this totally idiotic Marxist framework and applying it to women and men. Well, it's the biggest lie because it ignores the very obvious symbiosis.
It's not possible for them to exist apart and it's not possible to continue the species. It's like so dumb that they need each other that actually power is exerted in very subtle but powerful ways within a relationship between a man and a woman that are not at all described or even acknowledged, right? It's the basis of life itself.
Of course. So it is like really, you trace back like the emergence of nihilism.
It really is in Marxism. It's in feminism.
And then they successfully cross-dress for decades, and they get so good at it. This is the famous long march through institutions or what they call cultural Marxism.
But they basically dress themselves up as, you know, basically civil rights. I mean, because once you get equal rights, the work is done.
Same thing with gays and lesbians. but then the radical left activists then go and grab all those trappings because we started the conversation

this may seem like a digression but it's important i think for normies and everybody to understand that i mean this dawn it took a long time for me to get it but it was like oh right like the people that call themselves environmentalists are actually just radical leftists slightly different from marx because they're actually um into malthus this totally dystopian anti-human view but the genius of the left is that they are so successful at masking their real agenda behind something else you know we just want equality for people of color we just want to create equal opportunity for migrants No, their agenda is the destruction of civilization. I know.
And you see, on the environmental- And it's working in LA. Well, it is working.
And I always thought on the environmental movement, there was a woman called Julia Butterfly Hill who spent more than a year in a Redwood. And I always thought, if you were sincere about environmentalism, she would be like whatever happened to her nobody knows and that was to your point about physicalism like i like redwoods and like if there's a reason to cut them out okay but like maybe don't because they're just so beautiful that that's my personal view i always have felt that way so like here was someone who is she saved a tree that's got to be the highest level of what they claim they're trying to do, but they totally ignored her.
They don't give a shit about her at all. She died in a tree, probably better for them.
What they really wanted to do was disconnect people from nature. It was the opposite.
Right. So why is it that every single person I know who really spends a lot of time outdoors, who's into the sporting life or whatever, lives in a rural area, man, their goals are the opposite of those of the Environmental Defense Fund and the Sierra Club.
Do you know what I mean? Well, and also, I think the physicalist distinction works on that as well. I mean, here you have, I did an interview with a terrific, the scientist I mentioned, and he's just like, you know, when when you're dealing with fires, the main event is what is happening on the ground.
Exactly. And the climate extremists are out there basically saying, no, no, no, ignore this whole physical reality.
We just need to reorganize the entire global economy. Exactly.
Exactly. Like, we can't stop these fires, let Malibu burn, but give us control over the driver of the economy.
I mean, it's such madness. Exactly.
And it's the opposite and they don't care. I mean, what's the pollution generated by these fires? Oh, it's so much.
I mean, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but it's massive. And dangerous, right? Well, yeah.
I mean, oh my gosh, the air in LA now. I mean, it is...
My daughter's in college there. I'm worried about her.
I mean, it is absolutely toxic air. I mean, of course it is.
And you have a lot of electric cars and you have a lot of batteries going up. We don't know what that stuff is putting out in terms of particulate matter.
So, no, it's awful. I mean, ostensibly, you'll get tree growth and the carbon will be you know, reabsorbed and those parts will be reabsorbed.
But, yeah, no, I mean, it is. I'm not talking about carbon.
I mean, like poison in the air and water. Oh, for sure.
I mean, think of all the houses with all the plastic and electricity burning. It's terrible.
No, for sure. I mean, yeah, it's a chance to get regrounded, I think.
A chance to, I mean, you know, it is also an interesting moment, right?

Because Hollywood, it's just producing garbage.

It is just, it is incredible how bad the cultural production is.

Just at a straight, like, you know, if you're someone that just loves pop culture, like, you just love Steven Spielberg, we're not getting that level of quality.

I mean, we tried to watch something on Netflix.

It's just awful. And it's because they're all trying to fit it in.
Artistry and creativity is transgressive. It's supposed to be breaking.
I mean, that's actually where you want your... I want my transgression in my art, not in my civilization.
I want a really boring civilization and really transgressive art, but it's become the opposite. The art has become boring and conformist and authoritarian.
And the civilization has gotten completely transgressive. So people are not where they need to be.
The laws are not being enforced. So, I mean, part of you go, God, I do hope it is a wake up call.
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So what, speaking of the laws not being enforced, tell us what you know about looting. Oh, I mean, that's kind of the standard.
That's like the norm in Los Angeles, isn't it? I mean... Even when there's not a fire burning.
No, of course. It's terrible.
I mean, I don't know if you saw they just arrested. I guess they had a couple of guys, they found a couple of guys looting Kamala's house and then they let them go.
of course of course they got the guy they found the guy that set one of the fires a homeless guy that set one of the fires and they let him go i mean it is uh it's amazing i mean the comedians like all their best materials just you know in the news already so how could they let you're you're stealing from people in the middle of a profound disaster, the city's burning down, and you're stealing, people are dying, and you're stealing. Aren't you, you're like a true villain, I think.
Oh, yeah, for sure. And then they let them go, and then that became widely publicized.
Well, guess what? You know, this is the thing that people have to understand. You know, criminals, you know, they read the news.
Like, criminals are very online.

It's not like criminals don't know what's going on.

And we have these amazing, there's these amazing, like, I think it was like phone calls between people in the Oakland jails and their friends.

And they're like, basically, Auntie Pam, the name of the DA.

They're like, Auntie Pam's going to make sure we, you know, get off.

You know, they all know where the laws are not being enforced. What's their job? Of course.
Yeah. They're rational actors.
You know, the irrational ones are the rest of us. The ones trying to, you know, live there.
So if you're Gavin Newsom or Karen Bass, like you're all in on the climate change explanation. Right.
That's all you've got at this point. I mean, they did.
I think they are backing off a little bit from it um i think that they're in a there's a little trapped which is great which is that on the one hand they they they can't accept responsibility because they know that if they accept responsibility then it's just then then their their political futures are doomed um on the other hand by not accepting responsibility and passing the buck that also becomes obvious to people. So, you know, they should all go.
I mean, remember, like, you know, New Orleans, like, that mayor was out of there. I mean, like...
Ray Nagin was there for that. Yeah.
So, that should be what happens. But New Orleans has...
That just accelerated the decline of the city. Yeah.
I mean, it's... I was there for Katrina.
I covered that. And I thought at the time, 20 years, I guess it was 20 years ago, incredibly, 2005.
I thought, well, you know, it's obviously tragic, but Bush is sending over a billion dollars to rebuild it. I'm sure the city will be better.
And it's been much worse ever since. That's depressing.
But LA is not New Orleans. It's our second biggest city.
It's, in in a lot of ways, the greatest city we've ever built. And in my opinion, and like, so what happens to it now? Well, there's no vision for it at all, you know, and we don't have anybody visionary in there.
You know, and they do, I mean, I think we had this guy, Rick Caruso, as you were mentioning, who ran for mayor. I mean, someone found, you know, there is a video of him calling for increasing the fire department budget.
I mean, kind of like, what else do you need to know at this point? Can that overcome the... I do think that the woke trance was broken.
I mean, Trump broke it. You do? I do, for sure.
And look at that. I mean, look at the catastrophe that the news media is in.
And the success that people like you and I are having and Joe Rogan being the most influential. Yeah.
He's like the new Walter Cronkite. Yeah.
He's where Mark Zuckerberg goes to confess his sins. So, it's a different world.
I do have some hope for it. I mean, the thing about the United States that's so different from Europe is just that literally they, I'm becoming like an old man because I'm talking about how great the Founding Fathers were.
But it's like literally they created this incredible system that if you have free speech, if you can protect your free speech, which we've, I think, succeeded in doing.

You bake it in.

You remind people of its importance.

You then are, I think, going to be able to self-correct in ways that places that allow higher levels of censorship are simply not going to be able to do i mean just look at this impact that elon is having right now it's incredible i was on some social media chat group and somebody was like how come we're all talking about the british grooming gangs it's like because elon decided that that was an issue the afd in germany may end up you know be i mean i think they're they're going to come in at least second in the elections next month because Elon has mainstreamed them. Of course.
So, that gives me a lot of hope. You've got a platform now that is still just the, I mean, we always knew that the media had that agenda-setting power.
But it's amazing to sort of see it so dramatically. You only can really see it when it shifts from the mainstream news media we were we were writing last summer about how the sovereign in the united states meaning like the true power center in the united states was the news media um that is now in my view clearly shifted to to acts it's just i think you said something recently recently.
I think I saw a clip of you saying the same thing.

I mean, it's just clear, like, that is where... It dominates everything.

It's just everything, you know?

And, like, Blue Sky gave it a shot,

but nobody can go on there.

It's too mad.

It's too insane.

So, I think it can be very, very positive.

You know, I always compare Acts to, you know,

it's like when the printing press first shows up

in the end of the 15th century for, like, about 100 years, the Catholic church was like, the printing press is great. You know, we can print Bibles and give them out to all the priests.
It's very cheap. The Catholic church loved the printing press.
And then Martin Luther got a hold of the printing press and it was just for the next, you know, five centuries was game over. I mean, the best history of the printing press, she goes back, I think it's an Oxford history, she goes back and just looks at its impact and she comes back and she's just like, you know, after years of study or whatever, and she's like, oh, we knew it was a big deal, but it was a much bigger deal than we thought.
It's not just the Protestant Reformation, it is that, it's also the scientific revolution, it's the industrial revolution, it's nationalism, and it's democracy. I mean, so, you get a huge epical change with this shift of communication technologies and social media.
We knew, I mean, we, you know, Martin Gurry famously wrote this book, Revolt to the Public, about the game-changing aspects of social media just on the Arab Spring, you know, which is now 14 years ago, but in some senses, it really just didn't get its power until Elon came in, bought it, and held strong against people calling him a racist anti-Semite for two years. I mean, it was just crazy.
It was like two years of the media just making him out to be the devil incarnate. And he held strong, and he ended up breaking the news media.
I mean, they not getting the traffic they're done there it's over yeah it's over so where does i mean so if it couldn't have happened to a worse group of people they i spent my whole life i can tell you that's absolutely true and they're you know they're terrified i was yeah i was watching john carl who i on cbs who i've known someone sent me a clip morning. John Carl, I've known him for over 30 years.
Nice guy, reasonable guy. And then Trump comes, the business starts to collapse, and he realizes, I'm speaking for him, but he realizes, oh, shit, I'm a middle-aged white guy.
I better go along. And he becomes just this cheerleader for every stupid, woke idea ever.
It was. You feel sorry for him.
He's a nice guy, actually, and not a stupid guy. Someone just sent me a clip of John Curl, like basically defending Trump.
Wow. And it's just like, again, I'm not a tack.
The weather, the wind moved. The wind moved.
Then you realize that most people just kind of, you know, they're easy to control. You just tell them what the program is and they go along with it.
Well, yeah. It's Kent Brockman.
No, you're totally right. I welcome our new alien overlords.
You know what I mean? They're the first. They're the first ones to shift.
No, you're right. Right? You're right.
Yeah, because they're covering the news. They're the first ones to know when the winds are coming.
The principle plays no role. Most people just kind of go along with what they think the marching orders are.
It's amazing. It really reveals, doesn't it, the herd animals.
Yeah. And did I say CBS? I think he's at ABC.
Whatever. They're all the same and they're all going away.
Yeah. But if your true entrenched power, which does exist, particularly in the intel agencies, I mean, that's where it really resides as far as I can tell.
I don't know.

It's, like, pretty threatening.

There's been a massive movement in power from the news media, which you control.

That's a fact, I would say.

In effect, control.

News media is controlled by the intel agencies.

In fact, to something you can't control.

So, that's a huge loss of power for you.

So, like, how can you let this continue?

Well, yeah.

I mean, how can they stop it, though? I mean, the- I don't know. I'm just feeling a little paranoid right no no i am this is too much freedom no i know no i totally do too you're like where's the like when's the penny gonna drop yeah kind of um well yeah and i also kind of go are they really going to disclose all the stuff that they have i mean we were going down we just did a actually i don't know if we published it yet but we're just going down the list of all the all the files that we want exactly because you know people are like oh can we have twitter files for the government you're like yes um so what i mean there's so much in there right so russiagate you know the russia collusion hoax um covet origins covet vaccines um hunter biden laptop yeah um i mean i'm assuming there's just a bunch of stuff on russia ukraine that's there i mean I mean, remember, because they keep leaking, they go, there's no bio labs in Ukraine.
They're like, well, there were some, we were doing some help with the bio. Well, not only are there bio labs in Ukraine, there are a lot of bio labs in Ukraine, which are working on biological weapons.
That's what, they're not there for livestock vaccines, sorry. And, you know, the thing that people don't in this country understand is that theian military is selling about half of the arms they get from the united states into international black markets and they're winding up in some case with the drug cartels in latin america that's a fact okay it's a fact and you can you can buy them and i spoke to someone who did buy some actually so i know i know this is a fact and they're bragging about it so they're selling conventional weapons including weapon systems that are very dangerous and very destabilizing that would make commercial air travel impossible for example right and so what are they doing with the pathogens in those bio labs and does the biden administration have a manifest do they know exactly what's in those labs and will they turn it over to the trump administration so we can keep track of these things and the answer is no actually the answer is no i know this wow so that's like the scariest thing that's ever happened and and so like what you know like i think the ukraine war has the potential to destabilize the world more than anything that's happened in my lifetime just because of the scale of the weapon systems and biological agents uh involved the most corrupt country in the West, which is Ukraine.
I'm not attacking Ukraine. I feel sorry for Ukraine.
But what the hell? Yeah. And so we could use some, we could use, that's why I'm saying this right now, because I hope this is widely disseminated, because I think it's like the scariest thing I've heard in a long, long time.
That is scary. But it's all flowered in secrecy.
That's the point. Yeah.
The only reason this stuff has happened, like this end of the world stuff has happened, is because there's no disclosure at all. Everything is...
Right. Oh, it's so much pent-up stuff.
So much. I mean, we're still...
Yeah, we have the JFK files, the UFO files, UAP files, I was just to say. Yeah, there's so much there.
So I spoke to someone about the UAP thing. Now we're so far afield, but I do think it's all connected.
No, it is all connected, though. It's like none of this stuff happens except in secrecy.
And I said, stop playing. I've been talking to these people for years now.
And the answer was the public is not ready for this information because it's just too it's just too it's too much and what's your view of that and this is someone who's pushing disclosure by the way this is not i know i don't know yeah i'm worried that it's bad news well that's the point it's bad yeah i'm worried it's bad really bad news yeah do you think that's true well i don't know no i'm not even saying it because i don't know if it's true and it is bad it's super bad i mean it seems like the dom it seems like the dominant two theories are now that it's non-human intelligence or that we or our adversaries have mastered anti-gravity technology um the other scenarios of you know some kind of new plasma or you know it's just kind of the phenomenon doesn't seem to be showing up in that way. Well, the core idea seems to be that there is non-human intelligence, whether all these manifestations of it are that, or whether they're government programs or Chinese or whatever.
It was probably a pastiche of all of them. But the core idea seems to be that there is non-human intelligence, which is plausible, and that it's been in interaction with the U.S.
government for quite some time, and that it plays a role in our role. What role is it playing? I mean, well, there are all these things that I don't know what is true or what's not true.
Do you think any of that is true? I know you've done work on this. Yeah, I mean, you know, and it's hard.
I mean, you know, I covered the New Jersey drone situation. I went to Jersey and interviewed a bunch of people.
I mean, for me, the weirdest moment is where you have John Kirby, the Defense Department spokesperson at Mayorkas, basically on the same day or the same 48 hours, just when they were asked about it. They just came out affirmatively and they were like, well, we're definitely not getting any drones over the military bases or other sensitive sites.
you're like i was like why would you lie about that i couldn't i couldn't because of course you know all else being equal i think that they don't people don't want to lie politicians don't want to lie because it just creates more work or hassle for your life complicates your life honesty is the best policy so why would they lie about that especially because the wall street journal had like they did this huge piece about all of the drone so-called on by way unidentified anomalous drone flyovers over the military bases and sensitive sites which includes nuclear plants i mean i part of my interest in this was always you know i was trying to save diablo canyon in california they kept getting drone flyovers also palo verde which is our biggest nuclear plant three beautiful reactors there in arizona like a lot of drone flyovers i'm also from northeast colorado which is where you know the icbms are a lot of their whole they had this exact same drone situation i believe it was december i want to say december 2019 and they had this whole interagency task force and they were like they were like oh we're going to put a plane up. And they kind of put a plane up.
And you're watching them. You're like, well, why are they not scrambling jets? Like, what are we doing here? Like, this is really bizarre.
It doesn't make any sense. I can't figure it out.
Because I think the other issue is that they may not know. I mean, okay, well, so to finish that story.
So then drone and my workers do that.. I go out and I'm just like, that's the weirdest lie because it's been heavily reported.
I mean, the drones over sensitive military bases is really well reported. And some of the best reporting was by a publication called The War Zone, which I highly recommend.
Very good, serious investigative reporting. They don't believe it's aliens at all.
They're just openly anti-alien. They're like, this is...

And I think it's aliens at all. Like, they're just openly, like, anti-alien.
They're like, this is, and I think it's, well, anyway, for whatever reason, they're just like, this is Chinese or Russian or whatever, and they're not taking it seriously. But they do some of the best reporting because they're kind of, because they can't figure out why the military is being so weird about it.
So, then Trump comes out, and he goes, they know what it is. I don't know why they're not telling anybody and i'm going to tell everybody on the on the 20th i mean i first of all i'm really happy that they're going to disclose and i want to raise expectations about what the trump administration is going to do we want the data and i mean someone was criticizing me because they were like all oh because i came out i said i'm confident the trump administration is going to share the data.
And they're like, that just shows that Schellenberger is, you know, it's like pro-Trump and whatever. And I was like, no, I'm just like pro-disclosure.
I want the expectations to be high because they should be high. There is so much information they're not releasing.
So, you know, they were over Bedminster. And he's talked about it twice now, by the way.
So, look. He's distressed about it, obviously.
He's worried about it. So, we're either headed for a pretty epic moment of disclosure there's another part of me that worries so i okay so it seems like yeah they could do disclosure we can find out what it is you know is it if it's there's could be aliens if it's aliens that's just a whole can of worms and then you have to be like is there like do we talk to them and if so who who's doing that do you think we have i i genuinely don't know i genuinely don't know i mean there's um there's this guy named i can't remember his first name stringfield he wrote uh this incredible thick book of um uap crashes crash retrievals and it's and he started doing it i want to say 50s or 60s and i think he went for like multiple decades and you just sit down with that book and it is like it's impressive i mean if it's a hoax it's just um one of the greatest hoaxes of all times you know like other hoaxes um you know like the protocols of the elders of Zion or whatever, they're really bad.

Like they're really, you're just like, this is like the dumbest hoax ever.

Like most hoaxes are not that sophisticated with all these details and nice people interviewed.

Of course, Roswell is the big case, but it's only apparently one of them.

There's others.

So there is this incredible, you know, gray literature never published by any academic press, by really a little bit of commercial nonfiction.

Obviously, you have David Grush and Lou Elizondo.

I testified in front of Congress on this in, I guess I was in December or November.

And, you know, two people, the two guys from the military, when we were asked, what are they?

Two guys said non-human intelligence.

And then me and the NASA guy said, we don't know um because i just don't i mean i just um what do you think the drones who were in jersie were i mean look here let me tell let's just let's just let's just let's just look at the possibility that they're human um they didn't get a single one of them they didn't down a single one of them not a single one of them crashed and there them. Not a single one of them crashed.
And there was a lot of them. And there was a lot of, look, there's a lot of mistaken sightings.
You know, it is easy to mistake things. It's totally natural.
But there was also, I mean, I interviewed mayors. Two mayors were like, one of them was like, I had an SUV-sized drone flying over my house.
Another one said he was going to a Fox News interview in new york the car came from he walks out his door and there's one hovering right over him and he said it you know felt like it was watching him like it was there monitoring him i mean that's weird stuff um so we can't get a single drone down they're over military bases they can't seem to get any of them um you know do i think the the Chinese could be behind or the, the, those are the Chinese. I mean, when the Chinese decide to like encroach and you in like in the South China Sea, when they decide, you know how they like, they'll like warn the United States occasionally.
They'll go, you're flying over our airspace. It's all super calculated and like, you know, like they're making, they're, they're, it's like a performance.
The Chinese are like, we're messing're messing with you like you all kind of know and they're doing it in ways where they don't want it to escalate but they want to get a little bit more of that space it's all super calculated now there was the balloon you know are there chinese balloons yeah but i mean to be buzzing air our military bases it's just so aggressive now i've when i've said that before i've had other people point out they go well they're aggressive with the cyber attacks i guess that's true it as a physicalist i guess i kind of go flying your drones over u.s military bases and nuclear plants that is just a level of aggression that just doesn't seem characteristic of the chain unless you were well of course, of course I agree with you. An intel person told me that this person believed that they were in fact Chinese and that a Chinese satellite went down, was visible to the naked eye.
There were news stories about it. It evaporated, burned up, and that this person told me that was taken down by the U.S.
government command and control satellite for these drones and the belief was the Chinese government was sending the following message we're moving on Taiwan and maybe other things you can't do anything about it okay so you know I have no idea if that's true or not zero yeah I mean I don't know that just doesn't it just I just gotta to say it's just so aggressive. And also – but the other thing is that like –

Seems reckless, actually.

Seems really reckless. And the Chinese have not been seeking confrontations like that for the most part.

Now, Jesse Michaels, who is doing some of the best reporting on this issue of UAPs, he's doing YouTube videos. He just did a documentary that was incredible like i think it's like an hour a couple of hours highly recommended that goes through the very long history of unidentified anomalous phenomena over u.s military bases including all these cases of you know several cases of them shutting down um missile systems Like a 65-year-long history.
Yeah, yeah. And there was this famous press conference with like missileers and others from military bases in Washington, D.C., I want to say in the 90s maybe, maybe 80s.
So, you know, like that predates any of the Chinese stuff by far. It predates all the drones.
So that was going on for a really long time. I mean, if you just kind of, if you step back and you look at it, it looks like a very, like, what is it communicating on a very basic level? It's definitely communicating dominance.
You know, it's, you can read in a lot of different ways, and that's similar to what the Navy pilots said around the tic-tac interactions off both coasts, is that these were phenomena or objects, whatever you're going to call them, or craft, that were just demonstrating dominance over our craft. They were able to do things that our craft weren't doing.
So, yeah, I mean. And that was, from their perspective, the point of the behavior was to say we can do things that you can't.

Yeah.

And so then the question would be, so if it is NHI, then the question is, are they communicating something?

And if they are communicating something, why would they only be doing it in that way?

Like, if you're trying to demonstrate your strength on an adversary or something, you're trying to send message why would you just do that because there's nothing that we can do with that information so then you have to wonder okay if it is nhi and it's behaving in that way non-human intelligence yeah non-human intelligence then is there some is there actually some other communication going on right that we don't know about and of course there's just a long history and there's all these crazy stories of you know presidents i mean going back to eisenhower so just to just to bottom line your view after reporting on the lights over new jersey in pennsylvania new york mid-atlantic drone hysteria do you think they were human-made drones i i genuinely don't know i mean i will be i'll be i might be more shocked if they were human-made because of their behaviors and they never were able to get one i did have somebody tell me recently that they had heard i mean again it's always secondhand it's so untrustworthy but somebody told me that that the military got one of the the orbs the famous orbs and open it up and it was chinese i mean if that's the case then somebody has mastered anti-gravity and that's almost harder for me to believe than that it's nh i because i mean it's just i mean i don't know i mean look we have a i mean here's the i literally i go back and You can see me doing it in the same conversation, but we have these huge black budgets in the military. I mean, just gigantic.
And they've been there for decades. So is it possible to cover up something like that? I think it might be.
I mean, I'm much more after having covered the Hunter Biden laptop and I mean, Russia gate too, but really the Hunter Biden laptop, I was just impressed by how many people were involved in the conspiracy to cover it up.

I mean, you had the FBI getting it, covering it up, basically working with Aspen Institute to run a disinformation campaign. By the way, this is Vivian Schiller and Garrett Graff run the disinformation campaign aimed at persuading journalists in advance of the release of the Hunter Biden laptop that it was a Russian information operation.
Garrett Graff is the guy that goes and does the big UFO book. So these things all, I mean, this was very weird.
So he comes out with a big book on UFOs. I think it was last year.
It was called UFO, Garrett Graff. This is somebody that is famously close with the intelligence community.
His other books were on Watergate and on 9-11. The book...
Both of which were totally legitimate. No, for sure.
And I'm sure the official story is everything we need to know. So, you know, you sort of go...
And what was his conclusion on UFOs well it was very it's the

um the narrative is that they don't know what they are so he doesn't fully he's not like a debunker like these guys who are like all oh we can explain everything so he's much more sophisticated than that but it's basically a debunking it's basically that it's basically that it's just all the

typical explanations

and then maybe some

US military program that it's basically that it's just all the typical explanations, and then maybe some U.S. military programs, but he also just says that, he just argues that the U.S.
military doesn't know what it is. I don't believe Garrett Graff, and the reason I don't believe Garrett Graff is because I saw him participate in a disinformation campaign on Hunter Biden laptop, and I know for a fact that there's something else going on at that Aspen Institute program.
And Aspen Institute, of course, is a massive US government funded NGO that cosplays as a kind of, you know, bourgeois gab fest. So there, I mean, so I'm like, that was, for me, that was all came out on the Twitter files.
I discovered that in the Twitter files. And for me me it was like pulling back the curtain and you actually have as a journalist like you we have the emails you know like you have the documents you have the tabletop exercise where they're brainwashing journalists into believing a lie about the hunter biden laptop that was so sophisticated of that because they basically go and brainwash journalists before the story comes out because they know they're listening to Giuliani you know their fbi tap on Giuliani they're listening to Giuliani they had they knew they had to go brainwash the journalists they go get all the journalists from all the major outlets plus the social media platforms in these seminars where they program them um I mean that was like for me it was like wow there's like a secret government like it was like there's some there's like a whole there's like a whole it's a very and it was very just sophisticated i don't know what else to describe it like it was very everything seemed very careful also with all the censorship stuff you see these limited hangouts right where limited hangouts are kind of like the public relations of a covert operation of like a covert propaganda operation where like after they get caught they can be like oh no we were totally honest about what we were doing we were talking about it but they do these weird limited hangouts you'll see these people that clearly look like either directly intelligence community or their intermediaries having these conversations they put on youtube and like they're like but it's like you know a couple hundred views like they're not promoting them in any way and so you just kind of go wow there's like a whole creepy like world of disinformation what you realize is that the covert operations are really not covert like all the all the information's out there actually right but it's just discredited or unnoticed or no one collates it.
Have you noticed that? Yeah. No, I know.
And you only can understand it when you see the whole big picture because there's no smoking guns ever. So there's never something you can – I mean, a hundred by and a laptop got about as close to a hundred as a smoking gun as you can get.
And it helped because it was – what helped to expose it was that it was partisan. And so, it was a particular partisan weaponization.
My concern with the UAPs, I mean, it's now, I guess, a strength and a weakness is that it's become bipartisan in terms of the desire. I mean, it was really, I mean, Tucker, the weirdest experience I've had, I've testified now like 12 times or 13 times in front of Congress in the last few years.
The weirdest experience I've had was on UAPs, seeing the Democrats and Republicans basically being aligned in wanting to get to the bottom of the UAP thing. I mean, it's beautiful.
I've never seen it. I was like, I've never heard of bipartisanship.
Never thought I would see it in the wild. So, that is exciting.
On the other hand, I suspect that there is also some bipartisan group that's trying to prevent that information from getting out for some reason.

So, I mean, look, I mean, it is, I mean, what is going to happen? I mean, part of me is, you know, maybe it's my defensive pessimism on it because like everybody else, I want the information. Part of me is like, there's just no way they're going to let that information out.
it's just something that's too

there's something about the UAP thing

like the JFK thing

where there's some secret there

that they are really there is some group of people that really don't want us to know so you know that's a that's a fact yes bumped up against that personally several times on both of those issues which appear to be related yes but i don't know the answer all it's it's almost like seeing something in photographic negative all i know for a fact confirmed is that they are willing to go to extreme lengths to keep it secret and so that's just to tell that it's there's something profound there it's not just a bureaucracy covering its own ass it's more than that i mean how about the clip where pompeo is being interviewed about the jfk files and then he like literally mid-sentence goes but i mean i've also seen the ufo files and it was like well why why did you just switch from like what made you think of the ufo files on the jfk files i don't know i mean um so anyway is there a secret has have we developed anti-gravity? Have we developed? I mean, we know that in the 50s, there were like, there was a whole book on it. It's very fascinating.
But there was like, there was an anti-gravity program in the US military with our defense contractors. It made the cover of one of the aerospace magazines.
It was like, there's like a cover of it. And then it just disappeared.
And so you can kind of go, I mean, the official experience, go, yeah, we tried that and it

didn't work it's like well how would that's never stopped you before right um like it not working like that's like um you know like like you would keep working on it if you can do anti-gravity so the other possibility is that it just went dark and they just they doing it. Well, I wonder though about the possibility that there is or has been technology transfer from some other realm to this realm.

Because there are, you know, just in the study of history, there's really no understanding at a bunch of different points in human societal evolution.

Like, where did that technology come from? And you see that on a bunch of different technologies. But nuclear, anti-gravity, that kind of stuff, like, are you open to the possibility that there's been, like, a transfer of that technology from some other...
I mean, that is definitely... That is what a lot of people talk about.
Yeah. I mean, the problem with this issue is just it's very frustrating because it's just all secondhand.
Of course it is. And so, like, the 100-bit and laptop is not secondhand.
Like, it's firsthand, and I have the documents. Now, there are a bunch of really fascinating, you know, alleged U.S.
secret U.S. government documents on UFOs, on alleged alien spacecraft crashes.
They're called the, you know, Majestic documents or the MJ-12 documents. And so, the story is that, you know, that one or two of these craft crashed in 1947 near Roswell, New Mexico.
And that sort of begins in, you know, and there's a whole cast of characters that allegedly, you know, including Oppenheimer were involved in that program. Why would Oppenheimer be involved? Well, why? I mean, because he was the man, you know, like he was like he was our greatest scientist, obviously the father of the atomic bomb and and you know roswell's where the um where we launched the the flights to bomb um hiroshima nagasaki so it's very symbolic in that sense maybe more than symbolic yeah maybe more than symbolic i mean they keep flying over nuclear like as my wife says she's like they your aliens really they don't like the nuclear you know because i love nuclear so and i'm kind of like i'm like well yeah i mean like and also the most ridiculous thing is when people are like all yeah they want us to give give up our you know the people that believe in them they go the aliens are here and they want us to give up our nuclear weapons it's like doesn't sound like a good idea to me um the foreign space invaders would like you to give up your most powerful weapons um but those documents i spent a a bunch of time on them, and I couldn't figure out how to report anything on it, because of course, of course, FBI was like, these are all debunked, they're all frauds.
But there are, first of all, there's a lot more of them. You go to MajesticDocuments.com and you can look at them.
They're amazing. I mean, if they are, and I've also had the other, and they're, by the way, in the Garrett Graff book.
They're in that book.

They're also in another debunking book called – by Mark Pilkington. I'm blanking on the name right now.
But they all – all the people that are the debunkers deal with these documents. And their story is not that they were all hoaxes.
Their story is that they were what's called counterintelligence passage material. documents were created by the u.s government but leaked to people to ostensibly be able to smoke out double agents or people like you would see them i guess it would trace these documents right like putting dye in the water to find the leak yeah yeah exactly so i mean but the thing is i mean it is like there's like one of them is a handbook of crash retrieval like for

like to like that the soldiers would ostensibly read to retrieve these crash i mean it's

they the if they're hoaxes they're incredible i mean like they have like they have like they have

like the people like they have i forgot what it's called but like basically like a manifest where

they show who's checked it out and read it they have all these different names and they've checked

those names and those were like real people at those air bases that had these documents. So, and then, you know, there was one document in particular where it was a memo from JFK to the CIA director Dulles, where he says, I want to see you on this particular day.
It was like July 62 or 63, I can't remember which. And now again, everyone's like, oh, that's a forgery.
It's part of the MJ-12 documents or whatever. It's not real.
But then they released the JFK files. And then sure enough, we see the Dulles calendar and he had met with JFK twice that day.
And nobody had known that they had had those meetings until we had that JFK memo and until we had the confirmation of the memo. So that would suggest that at least either that document is real, the JFK memo to Dulles, or whoever forged it knew that he had met with Dulles that day and nobody else had known that.
So, you know, you'd be sort of like, I guess you could still put it in the – this is why – this is the problem with this issue is you can still – there's still plausible deniability for all these things. You can make up a reason for why these documents are all counterintelligent passage material.
I don't know. That's why I just have to kind of go, I don't know.
I mean, I talk to a lot of people and yeah, it's just a lot of secondhand information and the documents are secondhand. So, you kind of go, there's like my world of like the Hunter Bideniden laptop which still a bunch of my progressive and democrat friends and family don't believe you know they still they still think the russians were somehow involved um but like i actually have the documents and we can prove what happened there on the uap stuff it's just still just surrounded in but the incoming president has said he just said i'm gonna tell you what those drones were about.
He was very relaxed about it, too. I mean, I was struck that when he did, he said it twice.
He said it again recently, like last week, right? And but then he said it in December. He goes, I don't know why they're buying.
Like, I don't know why they're not telling people what they are. They know what they are.
And I was like, I was like, I mean, it was a really he made it sound like it's no big deal. Like, we should just tell people what it is.
But if Trump knew what it is, and if it's NHI and Trump knows that, he seemed very relaxed about that. Because, of course, the, I mean, the main, the dominant, the conventional wisdom among people that follow this who think it's NHI is that it's bad news.
That it's not a great, that it's not a great story. That if it were good news and that they were just friendly space brothers offering us advanced tech, and they'd be like, and there's no strings attached or whatever, that would be a much easier story to sell.
But if there's some bad news in that story, then that might explain why they're so secretive. Well, clearly there's some bad news.
My theory is that the reason that permanent Washington

or deep state or whatever,

people who administer the system hate Trump

is not because of any of his policies,

which they're probably agnostic on,

but because they fear that he will disclose information.

I think everything's about disclosure.

If you look at the federal government,

what's its defining quality is secrecy right yes billion classified documents why is that

right it's not good it's never good your kids behave like that it's not good no they're using

drugs or whatever you know what i mean right they're having sex they shouldn't be having

there's never a good reason for that kind of secrecy it's not privacy it's secrecy so right

yes and there's something about trump that makes everybody nervous that he might say

more of what he knows than he should well they don they don't control him, obviously. So that's very nerve-wracking.
I mean, how much do you think that they're just worried that he's going to pull out of NATO? How much of it is that? That's, I mean, of course, that's in my daily prayers that he would do that. I don't think he's in danger of doing that.
I certainly hope so. But I think it's even more fundamental.
It's like, this guy could say the truth. Because Trump is not much of a liar, actually, by Washington and Sanders.
He's an exaggerator, of course. But actually, his defining quality is like saying the truth.
He's being honest about kind of big issues. The big issues.
So what do you, so you think he knows what it is? The UAP stuff? Yeah. I do think that, yes.
And you think it's NHI? You know, he hasn't told me, but yeah, I do think he knows. I'm pretty sure, pretty sure he knows.
And I'm pretty sure that everybody I've ever spoken to who I think knows a lot more than I do, I mean, what does it mean to know? Like, do we really know anything? I don't know. I'm not sure anybody fully understands this or even partially understands it.
But the people who I'm confident have a lot more information than I have to a person are very, very uncomfortable about it. Yeah.
Since not in public and private, which is another tell. I just don't know.
You've talked a lot of people i mean yeah no i mean it's there it's very um yeah i mean i say my prayers i'm still christian i mean um you know it's interesting joe when i was on joe rogan's podcast last time i mean here you know joe was like i think that they're extraterrestrials you know he's openly saying that yes, it's not. That's not the case.
Well, okay, or NHI. I guess NHI.
Yeah. But I mean, here, you and Joe are like the two big, most influential podcasters in the country, and you both think that it's not just a government secret tech or that it's not just plasmas.
No. And Joe's very close with Elon.
Mm-hmm. Loves Elon.
Mm-hmm. You know, like me, and I I think probably like you, believes that Elon deserves a huge amount of credit for saving free speech in this country.

Elon says there's nothing there, never sees anything, and they've got an amazing rocket system that sees a lot of things.

I'm not sure. I've talked to Elon about this a number of times.

Okay.

And I'm not sure he said that.

Okay, I thought he did say that.

No.

I thought he said if I see, if there's any aliens. He jokes about it, which is a tell.
Trump does too. And they joke in the same way.
I mean, of course, I love them both, obviously. And I feel like, you know, I feel like they both have really been great for this country.
You know, net-net, as they say. But no, they joke about it in the same way that a lot of people joke about it.
They're like, no, there are no flying saucers from Mars. Right.
Of course, they're not from Mars. They're not from another planet.
They're from here. They've always been here.
These are spiritual entities. This is my view, and I sincerely believe it.
Can't prove it. But since you asked, so he is, I've never heard Elon say that's not true.
Be dismissive's nothing there he just said right we monitor space that's what they do right and this is self-evident if there were there have been so many sightings in this country and around the world that if they were from another galaxy far far away there would be some satellite evidence of that they'd be picked up up coming into our atmosphere. And of course, that's not, as far as I know.
Well, we do have some photos. I mean, there's that one photo of the one, I can't remember, it's like, it's in the James Fox documentary.
So there are some of those, apparently. Coming through space in here? And certainly, I've been told there's a lot more of those photos and images.
But yeah, I mean, there's also... It would not surprise me, though.
I mean, it's clear that these things reside, you know, deep in the earth, under the water, and in the atmosphere. So, I mean, that's...
And why the elusiveness, then? Why the secrecy? Well, that's the question. That is the question.
I mean, why is everybody... Again, I don't know what anybody really knows.
I don't know anything. I just want to start every sentence by admitting I don't know anything.
I don't know what happens when you die. I don't know how the brain works.
I don't know anything. I don't know what sleep is for.
None of us do. That's a really interesting one.
That's a surprisingly interesting one, actually. But it's such a, it's so revealing of the limits of human knowledge.
It's like, oh, science has solved this. Really? What's sleep for? Tell me how that benefits us.
Sleep, really? But anyway, so I just always want to say and remind myself of the limits of my knowledge, which are profound. So I don't know anything.
But once again, every person I've talked to who I believe has deeper knowledge on this question than I have has seemed burdened by it. Have you noticed this? Yeah.
Yeah. It's not fun anymore.
And these are not people who are making money from it. No.
These are not people trying to get famous from it. These are people who just seem to have this knowledge and they're bothered by it.
So that's to me. And I don't think it's to cover up a secret weapons program.
I mean, in other words, I don't think that's how you would do it. It's so like, yeah, I don't believe it.
A secret weapons program. Yeah.
Sorry. It's much deeper.
Like, weapons programs come and go. Right.
Weapons that we thought were fearsome when I was a child are a joke now. We're watching weapons technology change so fast in the Ukraine war that people can't even get their brains around it.
And you wouldn't need this elaborate. And also, like, if you're doing passage material, like, just to go back to those cases, like, why would it be that? And why would there be so much of it? Why wouldn't it be something?

Anyway, it's a very curiously large body of passage material.

Yes.

On this particular topic.

Well, that's right.

Well, that's what I was saying.

Like I do think all the puzzle pieces

are sort of in plain sight.

Did you ask Putin about it?

I did not ask Putin about it. i would never have done it on air because i did ask him a bunch of questions off off camera about you know he has access to of course he controls the soviet archives which and the the soviets are great archivists and we know that from the you know couple of i I'm interested in Soviet leadership and government and all that stuff.
There've been a couple of amazing books written. The Court of the Red Czar being, I think the greatest of them about Stalin, for example.
And one thing you learned from reading the book is they kept records on everything, almost like the Nazis, like crazy level records. And, you know, most of them have never been as close.
So I had, I did have some questions for Putin about that, about Rudolf Hess specifically.

It's one of the great stories in history that doesn't make any sense at all. The number two guy in Nazi Germany flying into Scotland in a plane by himself and bailing out, you know, right before the U.S.
entry into the war. And had all these things to say that were wild.
and one of the things he apparently said in his debriefs was he believed

that Hitler was being influenced by demonic spirits that he had summoned through the occult. Huh? That's not worth knowing more about.
There's a lot of stuff on that. There's a lot.
There's a lot. But Hess said that.
So I immediately asked Putin about that off camera. I didn't want to seem like a wacko having unauthorized questions but I did ask him about that.
He did not get a satisfactory answer, but I did not ask him about UFOs. Well, I thought also that, you know, you may have seen Marc Andreessen recently said that when he met with White House officials who said that they wanted to take control over all AI, that they said to him something like, we've declassified whole areas of science since the 1950s.
And I was like, that just seemed like a reference to this stuff. At least to the anti-gravity, if not to some of the UAP stuff.
I think the modern Western mind, the post-1945 Western mind, is incapable of understanding some of the stuff because we lack the language of you know metaphysics and i think that's you know just been a feature of human thinking from the cave period right until we dropped the atom bomb in which case it just like turned off and like oh only the material world is real but no one else has ever thought that because that's not true well like for 100 years right really from darwin Really from Darwin, nearly 150 years. Yeah, but I don't think, I mean, even before the war, before dropping those bombs, I mean, I do think that's like the pivot point in history more than anything else.
But yeah, there have been secular movements. You know, rich people always think they're God.
And so they want to eliminate any rivals from the public from the conversation. But those man everything changed you don't think well it sure seemed like it i mean there's a really positive side of it though which is that we haven't had these awful wars yes brutal i mean when you look at the death toll that was going up from up and up and up from wars all throughout the 19th and 20th centuries it's awful so we've they've spared us that, but it took something apocalyptic.
Well, it's been 80 years. We'll see.
Yeah. So last question.
Sorry, I've got it. Can you imagine sitting next to me at dinner? Like, can you imagine? I never get anything done.
And you're, I think, one of the most knowledgeable people in the country on like all the most interesting topics. You're too kind.
No, it's just a fact. In fact, if there's anything in this conversation, I think one of the most knowledgeable people in the country on like all the most interesting topics.
So two kinds.

No,

it's just,

it's just a fact.

In fact,

if there's anything,

this conversation I think is like provoked in people.

It's a desire to hear more Michael Schellenberger.

So thank you.

Do you think it's possible that what we're seeing in LA,

which does feel like the destruction of our second biggest city from which

maybe there's no recovery?

I don't know.

I hope,

but do you think it's an act of war in some sense? You mean from a foreign power or? I do. Oh, like what's the evidence for that? It happened.
And it happened between Trump's election and his inauguration. And it's just crazy.

The second Trump got elected, I had this instinct like, oh, man, I bet a lot there's going to be bad stuff that happens.

I mean, I was more struck by that on the UAP, on the drone UAP. Yeah, well, exactly.

It's of a piece.

Yeah.

Bizarre Tesla explosion in Las Vegas.

Very weird.

Mass shooting.

Like, there's just, if there's a two-month period in my whole life, 55 years, where more weird shit's been packed into two months, I can't think of it. Yeah.
Can you? No, it's freaking me out a little bit. Me too.
Honestly. Me too.
I mean, I spent a bunch of time on the Livell's Burger. That's the guy that killed himself in the Tesla in Las Vegas.
I mean, you definitely have cases of PTSD causing people to do things and people are surprised by suicides but yeah it was a weird one you know and I was skeptical of his emails because you know I sent these emails to Sean Ryan it's another excellent podcaster now I think you've had him on or you've been on there I he's a friend of mine I I can just for the record I consider him an honest oh no I did too Ryan is an honest man no no for sure CIA operative oh shut up no no no I was like I was like enjoyed because because I believe in Sean and and I didn't I'm sure he did not fake that so you know and then they and then the FBI did confirm that those emails were real on the other hand you know that was a weird one too because also it felt like he was like oh the the those were Chinese drones. They've mastered Gravetic.
It just felt like he didn't really know what he was talking about either. So, there's just a lot of people talking.
Have you ever heard the word Gravetic before? I mean, I thought it was anti-gravity is what I've heard. But I'd never, well, you're a writer.
You're a word person. I'd never heard that word or seen that word.
I felt like he was using it wrong. That was my instinct.
That was my thought too. I looked it up.
Yeah. No, I mean, I guess I look at it.
I just think Nietzsche really nailed it, which is that when people, you know, when people stop believing in traditional religions, they become, they unconsciously, you know, develop, you know, they develop a new sense of guilt, a new vision of the apocalypse. They invent a new soul.
I mean, people think that there's this thing called gender, which is separate from your body. It's kind of like a soul.
My friend Abigail Schreier pointed that out. And so, we just end up recreating Christianity, but in a deformed and deranged way.
And the emergent quality of it is this destructive fire. It's actually more powerful because nobody got out there and said, let's let, I mean, somebody did say, let's let Malibu burn, but that was never the explicit policy of the government of LA.
It's just something that emerges after years of budget cuts, after years of self-hating ideologies like DEI, like climate apocalypse, like the homeless apocalypse. It just emerges kind of deep from deep within us, from some self-destructive part of us.
So for me, if there's a foreign invasion, it came through the human psyche, not from outside of it michael schellenberger how can um people find you uh public.news and at schellenberger on x the best thanks for having me thank you really appreciate you very much yeah thanks for listening to tucker carlson show if you enjoyed it you can go to t to Tucker Carlson dot com to see everything that we have made the complete library.

Tucker Carlson dot com.