Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

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Two lesbian

at Texas State University a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said,

do you love racists?

And I said, absolutely, I love racists.

I hate racism.

I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created in the image of God.

I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant.

I care about what you think about Jesus Christ.

Have you put your faith in him?

And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ.

But it's simply not the issue.

There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the Mili massacre.

Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

It's exactly right.

And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

There's a spiritual battle that is raging.

You have been preaching Christianity on college campuses and answering questions from skeptical undergrads, some of them very hostile for 45 years.

Am I getting your bio correct?

You got it.

Okay.

So you have seen this longitudinally over

almost five decades.

What are the changes that you've noticed?

And

what is your sense of the current state of young people?

The changes are the following.

Moral relativism, relativism in general, has a stranglehold now on people the way it never used to.

Neil deGrasse Tyson once said,

the good thing about science is it's true whether you believe it or not.

Well, guess what, Neil deGrasse Tyson?

That's true about all truth.

It's true.

It's true.

Whether you believe it or not.

And yet you and I live in a culture where more and more people say, essentially, everything's relative.

It doesn't matter what you believe.

And my point is: if someone says that to you, take them seriously.

Don't believe what they just said to you.

So,

unfortunately, that whole idea of relativism, the truth is totally subjective, has a stranglehold on more and more people's lives.

So, I've watched that trend continue over the past 45 years.

Secondly,

45

years ago was

1980.

So you're coming out of the 60s and 70s.

Right.

In 1980, I sort of remember 1980.

It was a pretty flaky time, actually.

The country changed during the 80s, but 1980 was still really the 70s.

So you think there was less moral relativism then than there is now?

Well, that's a good question.

I'm not sure of that, but it was not as clearly articulated.

It had not been worked through philosophically as deeply as it is today.

It was not such a part of a warp and woof of the American mind quite as much.

Yes, it definitely was strong.

And to watch that simply grow and deepen was frustrating for me to watch.

What is moral relativism?

The idea is basically this,

Tucker, who defines right and wrong?

I only know of four options.

Either the power elite define right and wrong, or the majority define right and wrong,

or

I define right and wrong, or God does.

Now, if the power elite, or the majority, or me defines right and wrong, it is relative.

It's just a creation of the human mind.

But if there is a God whose mind precedes the human mind, then of course this mind, this character of God, which is good, can define right and wrong, which turns it into an objective moral absolute.

No God?

Morality is a crapshoot.

Morality is a taste.

What do you like?

Broccoli or spinach?

Well, this is my taste.

Well, what do you like?

Loving people or hating people?

Well, it's my taste.

No, according to Christ and according to the Bible, morality is not just a taste.

Instead, human beings really have innate value and dignity, and that is why to dehumanize a person and trivialize a person is really wrong.

So moral relativism is tragic, and yet it's basically, as you have said so many times on your podcast, basically sin is deifying my opinion, deifying myself, putting myself at the center of the cosmos, which I could not agree with more.

And a fall of Christ is someone who's allowing God to be at the center of the universe.

And that's what worship is.

That's what faith is.

Worship is allowing God to drag me out of the center of the universe and allowing God to be the center of the universe, which means all of a sudden morality is not totally relative.

It's interesting.

I don't, and I'm not a historian.

I'm interested, but I'm not trained as one.

So I could be wrong, and

I'd welcome any correction.

But I don't think before the 20th century, there was ever a society, civilization at scale formed on the basis of moral relativism.

I think every society made the claim that our moral code came from God.

Yep.

Because I don't think, and I'm a Christian, but

of course I'm not referring to the Babylonians who weren't Christians.

You know, most civilizations have not been Christians.

But there has to be, at least conceptually, a God

behind the moral code, or else it's not really a moral code.

It's just a preference.

Exactly.

And so that just, as a practical matter, doesn't work over time, does it?

No, it doesn't.

But it is a neat way to justify me doing whatever I want to do, sexually, morally, in the use of power.

I can do whatever I want to do.

Because there are no limits.

Exactly.

And I'm the one who defines it.

And if I define good a particular way today, but I change my mind tomorrow, there's nothing wrong with it because it's all fluid, totally fluid.

It's totally arbitrary.

It's just a taste.

So today my taste is this.

Tomorrow, my taste is different.

It's the opposite.

It's not right or wrong.

It just is.

What is, is.

So chill out, Cliff, and just realize it is.

So I think you just explained why, and

many books have been written on this.

Why did the 20th century give rise to totalitarianism in a way that the world really had never seen?

Now, the obvious explanation is, well, technology made it possible, okay?

But it has always struck me that's an inadequate explanation.

It may be that societies at scale, big societies, big civilizations,

that don't acknowledge God

inevitably become totalitarian because there are no limits on the behavior of the leaders.

There's nothing they can't do.

Absolutely.

That is what you're saying.

Yes.

One of my heroes is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian novelist.

Amen.

And Alexander Solzhenitsyn, at one point in his life, thought, you know, it's really the rich that have a problem with evil.

They're the scumballs.

But then he was put in a gulag in Siberia, and he was living among very low-income people, and he was aghast.

at the immorality, the evil of those people.

And suddenly, Solzhenitsyn woke up to the fact, quote, the line separating good from evil does not run between parties, classes, and countries.

Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through every human heart.

And then Solzhenitsyn understood, I need help.

I need a savior.

And he converted to Christ.

That was sheer brilliance on his part and also real sensitivity, I think, to reality.

Yeah.

Well, he learned from what he saw around him.

Unlike so many of us, right,

who don't learn anything.

So you think that this is accelerating.

Yes.

And what are the manifestations of it?

How do you know that?

Well, obviously, when it comes to the issue of sexuality in our culture, it is tragic, absolutely tragic to watch people say, I don't know whether I'm male or female, but wait a second, I'm the one who defines it.

Because everything is relative.

So if I want to define myself as an individual or as they and them, That's cool.

If I want to be he today, she tomorrow, they the day after tomorrow, that's okay.

Because truth is something I create in my head.

It's simply my perception.

So if my perception today is I'm a he, tomorrow my perception is I'm a she, and the day after tomorrow my perception is I'm a they, that's all equally valid.

Because it's all just a cosmic crapshoot.

That's all life is.

It's ultimately meaningless.

Because God didn't create me.

No intelligent mind put me here for a purpose.

Life is ultimately meaningless, so I'll just create it according to my own desires.

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Well, you did.

So

flesh out why you think that's tragic.

I mean, it's self-evidently silly because you wind up making claims that are just counter to observable truth, like I can change my sex.

No, you can't.

It's determined at the DNA level.

So, like, no, that's untrue.

So, you could laugh at that.

Why do you call it tragic?

I call it tragic because

I lose my understanding of why you're valuable.

And if you rub me the wrong way, there is nothing that says I can't cut you off at the knees.

And the whole idea of forgiving is ridiculous.

Can you stop this?

I feel like you're at the heart of something that I don't fully understand, but if you don't mind explaining it a little more fully, why does that statement, I can change my sex because I'm self-created, I'm God of my own life,

why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me?

Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable?

It doesn't, but it's based on a philosophy.

It's based on a worldview.

And that that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents, which means we define ourselves, we define our value, we define our morality, we define everything about us,

which means I will also define how I'm going to treat you.

Exactly.

And if you rub me the wrong way, and if you cut me off with the knees, I'm coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again.

And revenge becomes the modus operandi.

Yes.

I have never, ever heard.

of a porpoise forgiving a shark for eating his porpoise friend.

But we're not porpoises.

We're human beings created in the image of God, which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving and also just and holy.

But he was also forgiving and he created us with this incredible ability to forgive and to be gracious and not just to cut each other off at the knees.

So if you don't believe that other people have souls,

There's really nothing you can't do to them.

Exactly.

Why does it even matter?

Exactly.

What's the difference between me stepping on a cockroach and me stepping on you you're both sentient beings you both are alive so if i can step on a cockroach why can't i step on you

oh now you're going to give me this mythology that oh but we're human beings and we have more value than a cockroach does oh really i don't think the cockroach feels that way right

to which you say what

down deep you know better than that Down deep, you and I, I don't care what your worldview is, you know that there is something to human value.

Down deep within your heart, within the depth of your being, you know that when you hold a little baby in your hands, you're not holding a cockroach.

No.

And this is not based on human arrogance.

Oh, I'm just superior to a cockroach.

No, this has to do with some innate, intrinsic value of a human life.

But if there is no God, this deep, profound experience that you're having as you hold a little baby in your hands is just raw emotionalism.

It's meaningless.

And the value, as you just said, is inherent.

It's not just utilitarian.

It's not that

the baby may grow up and become a famous scientist who creates a vaccine to prevent disease.

The value is inherent in the baby because the baby exists.

The baby is valuable because the baby was created by God.

Bingo.

You take God out of the picture and you're up a creek without a paddle when it comes to explaining to me why is that baby valuable?

Oh, that baby is valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings.

Yeah, fine.

So that's your genetic drive, right?

As mom and dad to care for your child.

Well, guess what?

I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could give a rip about their kids.

Yeah.

So don't give me this bit that dads have to love their kids.

And yet the majority of dads understand that child is valuable.

Okay, so now the question is, why?

Why is that child valuable?

And I would argue, if there is no God, that child is a hunker primordial slime evolved to a higher order.

So don't give me this gibberish that this child is valuable.

Instead, be intellectually consistent and acknowledge this child is a cosmic accident the same way I'm a cosmic accident.

That's so interesting.

So you really can't say that any child or any person is valuable except for the products he produces or the services he provides.

Bingo.

Unless you acknowledge that he was created by God.

Correct.

Because where would the value come from?

Exactly.

And you know where the value comes from in our culture?

The size of your stock portfolio, the size of your bank account.

That's totally.

The style of your car, the house you live in, the size, the grandeur of it.

And that is so superficial.

I mean, I was once speaking at a women's private section.

Can I also say it suggests that if you don't have that portfolio or that car, that you have less value.

You are a loser.

Right.

You're a loser, but you can also be completely mistreated or killed.

Why not?

Well, that's happening in the United States, by the way, to poor people.

Exactly.

And I guess when you frame it the way you did, we shouldn't be surprised by that.

You know, 100,000 people can die every year of fentanyl.

And we're like, yeah, but they're losers.

Like, whatever.

Who cares?

Yep.

And that's That is what we're saying.

Tragic.

Because they don't have value apart from what they produce or own.

Exactly.

Damn.

I think you just, I think you just explained what's happening.

I'm sorry.

I interrupted you, but you're

speaking at a private women's college in Massachusetts, and a woman came up to me with tears streaming down her cheeks.

She said, you know, Cliff, you don't know what it's like to walk into a frat party.

And as you walk into the door, you walk past a group of guys lined up, and they're whispering to each other.

Two.

Four.

Yep.

Eight.

Ten.

She said, you have no idea how dehumanizing that is, Cliff.

And I had to look her in the face and say, you're right, ma'am.

I don't.

I don't know experientially how dehumanizing that is, but I can begin to imagine.

That is such a trashy view of human life.

It's scary.

But if there is no God, we're all hunks of primordial slime.

We're all hunks of meat on a hoof.

And if we're proportioned correctly, we're in 6, 8, 10.

And if we're not, we're four or two.

Tragic.

What did she say?

She began to seriously consider Christ in a way that was very exciting.

I don't know what ultimately she decided, but she said to me, Clef, basically, this is really beginning to make more sense than it ever has before.

I've noticed

a lot that the emphasis in the United States, and I've always been a right-winger and I always made fun of people who raided about the poor and all that stuff.

I was wrong, I just want to say.

But I have noticed that the concern for the poor in the United States has basically just evaporated.

And that 100 years ago, the country was humming with benevolent associations, with what we would call NGOs, basically rich ladies, just like now,

trying to elevate the poor, take care of orphaned children, teach them English, feed them.

And that no longer exists at all.

And

could that

coincide not coincidentally with the decline in Christianity?

Yes, it absolutely could.

It's a searing of the human conscience.

It's interesting you raise that issue because this winter and spring, like never before, when people ask me difficult theological questions, I try and give a short answer.

Especially when they start getting into, you know, what about the Catholics?

What about the Greek Orthodox?

What about the Protestants?

You You know, don't they really all have problems?

My point is rather simple.

My point is, I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant.

I care about what you think about Jesus Christ.

Have you put your faith in him?

And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ.

But it's simply not the issue.

Are you Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant?

The issue is: have you put your faith in Christ?

Then the issue is: are you seeking to introduce people to Christ, and are you seeking to solve one of the biggest killers in the world today which is starvation

if you had a kid who was starving and I say to you I'm a follower Christ and I look at your starving kid and say good luck and I walk away you have good reason to question the legitimacy of my faith I think you do yes if I have the solution for your starving kid and it's called money in my back pocket in my bank account and I do nothing to help you with your starving kid oh my goodness, what on earth is going on?

So to get all wrapped up in some of these theological debates, I just don't want to spend too much time on because we got a boatload of work to do.

Introducing people to Christ, helping them go from hell to heaven, helping them grow as people of integrity, people of honesty, people of strong values, and then people who share their financial resources with those who are less fortunate and solve the world's starvation problem.

You're effectively a theologian, so it's interesting to hear you say, I don't want to get caught up in the theology.

Well, theology is very important when it comes to the basics.

I like what Mark Twain said.

Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that disturb me.

It's the parts of the Bible that I do understand that disturb me.

Boy, is that true.

Right on, Mark.

Well, it's amazing how many Christians can get caught up in the minutiae.

You know, is transubstantiation correct?

Should I be a Catholic or not?

Should I pray to Mary or not?

You know, if someone comes up to me and says, Cliff, I I know you're going through a rough time and I'm praying to my aunt who was a saint for you.

I'm not going to try and have this hour-long discussion with them why I don't think praying to your dead aunt is a good use of your time.

I'm going to say thank you for praying to your aunt.

I would encourage people to pray directly to God, directly to Jesus Christ.

But how much time do I'm going to spend with another person debating upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not?

I just,

let's focus on the majors, not on the minors.

Interesting.

Yet, a lot of energy is expended on the small stuff.

Why is that?

I don't know.

I've got some fears, some concerns about why that is.

There's a part of me that understands it too well, which is I want to be right.

And if I have an opinion, I want you to agree with me.

And if you don't agree with me, I want to try and convince you to that.

And so there can be egotism in there and arrogance.

Yes.

And I've got to be very, very careful of that.

I mean, I have the greatest respect for President Lincoln.

During the Civil War, a minister came up to him and said, Mr.

Lincoln, let's pray pray that God is on our side in this terrible conflict.

And Lincoln shot back, oh, no, no, no, no.

Let's pray instead that we are on God's side, for God's side is always right.

And it's far too easy for me to baptize my views with, oh, this is God's view.

Got to be very suspicious of that.

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Have you ever in your life discovered that what you thought was God's view is really your view?

Oh, absolutely.

And I've watched that in other people.

You know, one of the most gut-wrenching experiences for me during the 70s when I was at Davidson was I lived in the home of Billy Graham's sister, Jean, and her husband, Leighton Ford.

And I watched the Graham family struggle through the Watergate crisis.

Wait, you lived in Billy Graham's daughter's house?

Sisters.

Sister's home on the weekends, just on the weekends.

Leighton Ford became like a father in the Lord to me, and his wife, Jeannie, who was Billy Graham's sister, became like a mother in the Lord to me.

And so I had a front row seat for watching Dr.

Graham realize, I think I went too far with Richard Nixon.

Wow.

So you were there in 73, 74?

Correct.

What was that like?

Well, it was a rather intense educational experience, to put it mildly, in terms of what are you going to spend your life doing.

I had the utmost respect for Billy Graham.

That guy was incredible.

I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with, I will never have to deal with.

The opportunities to really mess up.

He had them all over the place.

And his integrity was incredible.

And I had the utmost respect for him.

But to watch him agonize through this issue of

how close did I get to Richard Nixon?

How much did I endorse him?

And was that the wisest use of my time?

I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they maintained their friendship till Nixon's death.

I also respect Nixon the way he told some of his handlers to keep Graham away from me.

I don't want to sully him any more than I have.

So I respect that, but I also respect Graham for realizing God called me to preach the gospel.

I got to be real careful how much I hop into bed with politicians.

Amen.

But, I mean, I guess the counter argument would, let me just say, I agree with you completely, but I also see the compelling argument on the other side, which is that I have influence.

Yep.

I think I'm influencing people on behalf of what is true and good.

Correct.

And I have this chance to influence the president of the United States.

Like, why wouldn't I take that?

Exactly.

What do you think of that argument?

I think that argument is absolutely correct.

But then the question becomes, how strongly do you endorse the individual?

Right.

Because the individual is a sinner the same way I am, the same way we all are.

And the individual is going to make mistakes, going to sin.

How closely do I want to wed that individual with Christ when it comes to communicating Christ to people?

And that's a real challenge that I face.

One of my best lines is I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

And what I'm seeking to smash is the stereotype that a Christian is someone who claims to be morally superior to everybody else.

That's a lie.

I'm a follower of Christ because I need God's forgiveness, because I've messed up.

And if I ever forget that, and if I think that my faith in Christ has produced a morally superior person named Cliff Konecley, I have parted company with reality.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.

Yeah, that's where it's at.

A story, Tucker, that I use a lot is

Truth and Reconciliation Commission, after apartheid was being taken apart in South Africa.

Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court, and a black South African woman was at the end of the end of court.

And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission looked into the face of the black South African and said, ma'am, this officer

went to your township, arrested your husband, brought him outside the township, partied, and roasted him over a fire till he was burned to death.

One year later, they did the same thing to your son.

Came to your home, arrested your son, took him out to a party outside the town, and burned him to death.

Now, what do you want us to do with this white police officer?

And this black South African woman said, I got three requests.

First request is,

I want this white police officer to take me to the place where he burned my husband and my son to death so that I can gather up their ashes and give them a proper burial.

Second request is, I want this white police officer to come to my township once a month and allow me to mother him because I got a lot of mothering left in me and he's taking my family away from me.

And the third thing is, I want you to allow me to walk across this courtroom now and give him a hug to try and convince him that my forgiveness of him is genuine and real.

And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said, yes, go ahead.

This black South African woman stands up, and as she's walking across the courtroom to this man who was responsible for the murder of her husband and son, a person starts singing, Amazing Grace, how sweet to sound, that saved a wretch like me.

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.

That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's pretty far from what

anyone naturally wants or believes.

So,

I mean, how do you make the case that acting against your own impulses, against your own instincts, is good?

Like, why?

That's pretty radical.

It's more radical, I think, than we appreciate normally.

Absolutely correct.

It's totally radical.

And so is me getting on a diet.

When the doctor says to me, you're getting close to being diabetic, Cliff.

Yeah, I got to cut ice cream out.

I don't want to do that.

But if I want to play with my grandchildren

10 years from now, I better do that.

Yeah.

So I'm free.

I'm free to eat ice cream every night, a whole bowl full of it, or a pint of it, whatever.

Or I'm free to diet.

I'm free to...

do that in order to play with my grandchildren 10 years from now.

Yeah, if I want to get a good education, I've got to discipline myself.

And if I want to play basketball at Davidson College, I'm really going to have to discipline myself because I don't have the innate talent to do that.

So yeah, if I want to achieve excellence in life, I'm going to have to discipline myself and put myself through some things that I don't naturally want to do.

And that's what we call living a wise life of excellence, of using the gifts that God has given me to make a difference in this world for good.

of using this incredible body that God has blessed me with to serve God by serving people more effectively, to develop this amazing mind, the most powerful muscle in our body that God has given me, by developing that mind so I can think more clearly and help more people.

Yeah, I don't necessarily want to do that, but it's what's best.

It's what's wisest.

So therefore, I want to do it.

What kind of pushback do you get from students when you say things like that?

Two lesbian.

at Texas State University a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said,

do you love racists?

And I said, absolutely, I love racists.

I hate racism,

but I love racists.

They're human beings created in the image of God.

And these two lesbians erupted.

You're an idiot.

There's no way that you should be loving a racist.

And I said, ladies, you're really getting mixed up here.

There are some very sinful parts of me.

I do not affirm those parts.

I hate those parts, but I affirm my value as a human being created in the image of God.

I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created in the image of God.

And I've got some former murderers coming to the church where I pastor.

I abhor their murdering a human being, but I still respect them as human beings created in the image of God.

And when I worked in a Lawrence County House of Correction in Lawrence, Massachusetts, while I was in seminary, the first visit I would make every Monday night was into the cell of a guy in protective custody who was there for kidnapping little boys, sexually abusing them and murdering them and burying them.

And after spending an hour with him, talking with him, reading the Bible, praying with him, I would go to the gymnasium to play basketball.

And the other inmates would come up to me and say, hey man, don't you know what a piece of dirt he is?

How dare you spend any time in his cell talking with him?

And I said, sirs, I abhor what he did to those boys.

But I can promise you, in spite of how he has messed up and defaced the image of God in him, he is still a human being created in the image of God.

And I will seek to reach out to him to offer God's grace and forgiveness to one confused, messed up man.

How'd they respond?

They got quizzical looks on their faces.

Some of them laughed.

And I understand that,

because that is foreign, and it is absurd.

And as you pointed out, it's really radical the way Jesus taught that.

But that's part of why we have so many lonely people in our society today, because we live in a cancel culture, which means you rub me the wrong way and I cancel you.

well guess what everybody's going to rub me the wrong way at some point yeah and if i'm just going around canceling people i'm going to be a very lonely isolated person if i don't learn to forgive i will be alone

intimacy is based on the ability to forgive and to accept people who are different and who've hurt you yes

that is such a that is such a wise point You know, if you think you're the only virtuous person in the world,

first, you're an idiot, but second, you will have no one at dinner.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

No, I think that's really wise.

But a child molester, really?

Shouldn't there be limits to humanity?

Like, at some point, do you lose your humanity?

I guess what you're saying is no.

You deface it.

Yes.

And obviously, some of us have defaced it in very, very unusual, grotesque ways.

But we all have defaced it to some extent.

I have.

No, I've never committed the sins that that man committed that I would visit every Monday night.

But I've lusted.

I've been greedy.

I've hated, I've had subtle racist attitudes, I've been sexist chauvinistic in my own unique way, sophisticated way.

So I'm not this wonderful person that I wish that everyone would believe that I am.

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What did the lesbians at Texas State say when you told them that you love racists?

They were outraged.

They said that's impossible.

And I said, ladies, from your perspective, I understand why.

If there is no God, forgiveness forgiveness is stupid.

You don't forgive people.

You teach them not to do that to you again.

But if there is a God who's forgiven you, then you'd be very wise to be God-like in the way you forgive others.

That's not the message of the Old Testament, which I read last year and was pretty shocked by, as I think many people who read it are shocked by the violence in it and shocked by the revenge in it,

the genocide in it.

What do you make of that?

I understand why you say what you just said.

But to be honest with you, Tucker, I disagree.

I think what you see in the Old Testament is the judgment of God.

It's not genocide.

Instead, God chose to use the Jews to judge the Amalekites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Stalagtites, all the other tites.

But remember, a few hundred years later, he used first the Assyrians and then the Babylonians to judge the Jews.

Why?

To commit genocide?

No, no, no, no.

To judge them for sacrificing their babies on altars, which is the same thing the Hittites and the Canaanites and the Philistines were doing.

And God says, you pervert the worship of me in that way to the point of sacrificing your child on an altar to me, you will be judged for it.

And he judged first those

Hittites and Amorites and Agites.

And then he judged the Jews for that kind of evil.

So you see, I think the real question, Tucker, is, do we give God the right to judge?

Now, here's what's fascinating about this issue for me.

When I step onto a state university campus, I know that the majority of professors are going to basically say, Cliff, if you abuse a young African-American kid and the police come up to you and they say, what are you doing, Cliff?

And I say, well, this kid deserved it.

I just...

beat him to a pulp.

If the police officer looks at me and says, let's go to Starbucks together, you all would be outraged.

What incredible racism, what amazing injustice.

Good.

Don't make the same mistake with God.

If you define God as being love, lovey-dovey, and expect him not to judge me for whooping up on the African-American kid, if you expect God not to judge me for my evil, then let's be real honest.

That kid doesn't matter to God.

The same way, if the police say to me, let's go to Starbucks, after I whoop up on an African-American kid, they're saying something very clearly.

Cliff, that little African-American kid does not matter.

If God doesn't judge, he does not love.

If God doesn't judge, it means people do not matter to God.

And the opposite is true.

People matter to God, and therefore when we mess with each other's heads and bodies, he judges us.

I don't, however, see the message of forgiveness between people in the Old Testament in the way that I see it in the New Testament.

It does seem like there was a change.

I mean, no one in the Old Testament that I read was saying, turn the other cheek.

Okay.

That you can't be forgiven until you forgive, which are like central messages, obviously, of Jesus.

So it does it, I mean, that seems like a change to me.

Okay.

I would agree with you that indeed it's not articulated quite as clearly as it is in the New Testament.

But gosh, you got to read the book of Hosea.

Hosea is married to a woman named Gomer.

Oh, yes.

They have a little baby, and Hosea is holding that little baby in his hands, and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain't the daddy.

Yeah.

Number two, child, same thing.

Number three child, same thing.

Hosea is holding that little kid in his hands, and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain't the daddy.

It gets to the point where Hosea has to go down to the slave market to barter against other men to buy back his wife.

And God is banging on Hosea's door saying, Hosea, do you know the pain that you experience over your wife's sexual unfaithfulness?

Well, that is the same pain that I experience over human beings who've been unfaithful to me, who I created to love me and live in relationship with me, and they turn their backs on me.

I am a suffering God.

I hurt over that, but I am a gracious God who offers forgiveness.

God's patience with a stubborn Israelite people is incredible.

They deserved his wrath long before they got it at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians.

So you think that they were required to forgive in the same way that Jesus required his disciples and followers to forgive?

But it was not articulated as clearly.

You're absolutely correct.

It was not articulated as clearly, but the seeds of it are all there.

I mean, God, when he confronts Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 3 after their rebellion,

God bless you.

Oh, thank you.

You are just the man to send a blessing of God to a sneezing podcast host.

Thank you.

So God is very gracious to Adam and Eve.

God is very gracious to Cain after he kills his brother Abel.

He doesn't wipe him out.

He puts a mark on him and says, no, Cain, you know, you keep going through this thing called life.

God is incredibly gracious to Abraham, who says to Pharaoh, this woman, Sarah,

she ain't my wife.

She's my sister.

So of course you can take her to be part of your harem.

He said that twice,

two different cases.

I was shocked by that and not impressed.

I just got to be honest.

Like everyone loves Abraham, but what?

What?

I know.

It's amazing.

I know.

They never taught that in my church.

God is clearly gracious and forgiving.

He created people and he wants them to thrive.

I got that message all throughout the Old Testament.

What I didn't get was the command that people should be gracious to each other.

Didn't get that.

Whereas that is kind of at the heart of the New Testament.

Yes.

I don't see that in the Old, but I'm no scholar.

I just read it once.

No, but you're right.

There is a lot more barbarism in the Old Testament.

And I think a lot of that has to do with culture.

I mean, let's be honest, Tucker.

I don't think that you and I are talking to each other the way we are by accident.

I think there are a lot of reasons.

And I think one of the reasons is that you grew up where you did, and I grew up where I did.

And you and I were privileged to have a lot of wonderful people pour some very good teaching into our lives.

We grew up where respecting each other was valued.

And I think you and I are the beneficiaries of that.

For sure.

I know I am.

I certainly am myself.

But when you go into a different culture where there are not those kind of practices and good habits, I think that there's a lot of problems that start rising rather quickly.

That is why I'm a lot more patient with people who grew up where dad was just a monger, just roasted his kids,

was so cruel.

I'm a lot more patient in understanding those people than those people who grew up up in homes where they had a mom and a dad who really loved them and cared for them.

Yes.

So you think the culture changed?

The culture of the read about it in the Bible.

Yes.

Correct.

Big culture changes.

So

the questions that you get from students in 2025, how are they different from the ones you got from students in 1980?

There's an amazing similarity.

The biggest difference is the emotional change.

My dad grew up in Switzerland.

When my dad was 18, he had a gun sitting up in the Alps as he watched Hitler's panzer divisions approach Switzerland.

My grandpa was on the front lines with his gun.

They didn't know whether those panzer divisions were going to crash into Switzerland or not.

The gossip is that Mussolini called Hitler and said, my money's in Switzerland.

Let's not go into there.

For whatever reason, those panzer divisions stopped and did not go into Switzerland.

But that's what my dad had to deal with.

Can I also say that the Swiss shot down American airplanes, a bunch of them?

They shot down.

Absolutely, they did.

They killed a lot of Allied airmen.

Wow.

You couldn't fly over Switzerland, and the Swiss were like pretty determined to enforce that rule.

Wow.

Being like ornery mountain people, which they definitely are.

And yeah, yeah.

No, they didn't want anyone in Switzerland, period.

Right.

Sorry, it's my favorite fact.

And I don't want it to be lost in history.

Yeah, I do too.

I mean, I'm not for killing American airmen, of course, but I am for sort of independence.

Yeah, yeah, that's excellent.

That's great.

Okay, so that's what my dad went through as an 18-year-old.

I was speaking on campuses when President Trump won the first time.

Yes.

And I watched 18-year-olds, 19-year-olds, and 20-year-olds go for grief counseling because Donald Trump won.

That's amazing.

You talk about emotionally fragile.

Yes.

The difference between a guy sitting up in the Alps watching Hitler's panzer divisions come and having to have the emotional courage and the emotional strength to handle that versus I got to go to a crying room because Donald Trump just won the election.

I mean, that's pathetic.

That is tragic.

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So you notice that in the questions that you get, people feel more on edge?

Yes.

There's an emotional sensitivity that I think at times is

sad.

Where do you think that comes from?

Well, I think it comes from a lot of things.

I think it comes from the breakdown of the home.

If you don't understand love and experience love at an early age, and if you don't begin to understand that at the heart of the cosmos, there's a God who really loves you.

If you don't really begin to understand that Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so.

And if you think your value really

depends on you winning a ballgame, you winning a deal, you having a bigger bank account than your competitor.

I mean, good gracious, gracious, how insecure.

And so there's tremendous insecurity that comes from thinking that my value depends upon whether my body's a two, four, six, eight, or 10.

I mean, you think about that.

I mean, you think about my value depends upon whether I can put a better selfie up, whether I can post a better selfie to appear to be more together than you are.

I mean, you talk about...

emotional fragility.

You talk about identity crisis.

I mean, it's scary.

So the breakdown of the family, the whole emphasis of materialism, which is, yeah, it's all about how you look and how much you own.

Yeah, you build your life on that.

And

come on,

things are going to crumble fairly quickly unless you're very successful.

And then you get to be where Tom Brady is.

And you ask, okay, six Super Bowl rings.

Now, what do I do?

Right.

What's it all about, Alfie?

Exactly.

Yeah, winning is often the worst thing for a man that I've noticed.

Yeah.

Because it shows in stark relief the limits of this world.

Doesn't it?

Yeah.

Well, sure.

I mean, you got everything you wanted and you're still not fulfilled.

So like, what else is there?

Exactly.

No, I've seen that a lot.

I've experienced it to some extent.

Same here.

Yeah.

So when you say they're more fragile and they ask you questions, like, what do you mean?

Like, how do you know they're more fragile?

How do they behave?

I have to be more careful.

The way I answer their questions.

In the 80s and 90s, I used to be able to come back more strongly.

Now I have to be careful that I'm not going to blow people out of the water emotionally.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

Because then I lose their ear.

So, like in the 80s, you would just be like at Wesleyan and you'd be like, you're going to hell.

But you can't say that now.

Well, I wouldn't say that even in the 80s.

Even at Wesleyan?

Well, I never was at Wesleyan, but I was at Wellesley.

Oh, man, I went to Smith, spoke at Smith.

Oh, my goodness.

What was that like?

Oh, that was painful.

That was embarrassing.

Can you imagine I, a white male, standing up at Smith College and telling women that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

That did not go well.

You didn't win a lot of souls that day?

No, we did not see many people say, Oh, that's interesting.

I'd love to talk more with you.

Wellesley was a little different, but boy, Smith was intense.

A lot of happy people at Smith.

Yeah,

a lot of joy there.

Sorry.

Yeah, I'm afraid you nailed that one.

I mean, you know, I think it's fair to judge a worldview, a religion, a commitment of any kind by its fruit, right?

I mean, well put.

And

I'm stealing the line, but I think it's applicable just to the world.

Yes.

Right.

If it's so great, show me how great it is by the way that you yourself live.

Exactly.

And if people are,

I haven't been to Smith in a long time.

Last time I was there, I picked up a hitchhiker outside its gates.

But it was miserable in the 80s when I was last there.

I'm sure it's miserable now.

And so that's like kind of a bad advertisement for whatever belief system they're buying into, isn't it?

I certainly would agree with that.

Yeah.

It's exactly right.

So

then this leads to my sort of meta question, which is, why does everyone hate Christianity so much when there are certainly a lot of lousy Christians?

And hypocrites, of course, using the church for their own ends.

And they're televangelists and, you know, whatever.

I could go on and on and on.

Kid touchers.

But generally, rank-and-file Christians are, everyone knows this, way happier than everybody else.

So why is everyone mad at them?

Well, I have a good reason to be mad at God.

God impinges on my freedom to do whatever I want.

Ah, okay.

I don't want you telling me, Tucker, what I should do.

And I don't want God telling me what I should do.

I don't want anybody telling me what to do.

Because I bought into a false definition of freedom, which is freedom means doing whatever you want to do.

It's not true.

But no one believes it.

There's not one person on the planet who believes you should do whatever you want to do.

Everybody has a strict belief system.

The ladies who confronted you about loving racists,

like their religion tells them that racists are not human, whatever a racist is, by the way.

And you're required to hate them.

So they've got their own rules, too.

Well put.

Everybody has their own rules.

Christianity is no different from secular liberalism it's no different from buddhism or or communism or in the sense that it has a code a moral code

and people who step outside it are apostates so that's just that's the nature of moral codes yep

i think the difference is the christians seem like pretty happy pretty joyful pretty light

uh certainly lighter than the ladies of smith so so like why are people mad at them for that i don't get it yeah

well

god is offensive in that God tells me what is right sexually, what is right financially, what is right when he comes to use of power.

And I would just as soon not believe in a being who can see through the keyhole into my life.

I'd like to put my finger over the keyhole and say, there is no God who really sees me, who's going to hold me responsible.

Come on, the day of judgment is intimidating.

The idea that I'm going to be able to do that.

But that may be the difference, right?

And have to give an answer for my life.

I mean, gosh.

But that's where the cross of Christ comes in so powerfully.

He bled and died on a cross to forgive me, to wash away my sin, to give me eternal life.

And my confidence is in him, not in myself and my moral rectitude.

So is it the challenge of judgment?

Is that what makes people mad?

It's part of it.

You think there's a supernatural element here?

Absolutely.

I do notice that like the free-to-be you and me people,

I've always kind of been a free-to-be you and me person, by the way, for the record, don't actually want to convert anyone at gunpoint to anything.

Right.

But they draw the line at Christianity.

Like they, you know, you can free to be whatever you want, but the Jesus people aren't allowed.

Right.

I have noticed that.

But what I've noticed about you, Tucker, is

you enjoy shooting guns.

Yeah.

You don't want anybody telling you, I can't shoot guns.

I definitely don't want anyone telling me I can't shoot guns.

Yeah, that is definitely true.

You got me.

But one of the things that I respect that I've heard you say several times is, and I am committed to my wife.

Yeah.

And I don't have respect for a lot of politicians who have a real hard time understanding what commitment to their wife means.

Yeah.

Well, I'm afraid those politicians would argue, yeah, I'm sexually free.

And why are you so limited to one woman, Tucker?

And I think Jesus Christ was spot on, and I think you're very wise to make the decisions you have.

Yeah, and to put a finer point on it, it's not just that i don't respect them for cheating though yeah i think that's wrong but i don't respect them for not paying any attention i i think if you're i i look at someone who wants to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people whose wife is desperately unhappy and i'm like if you can't even make her happy how are you presuming to make decisions for me well put I'm well, I mean that.

And not just the wife, the children.

If your kids don't respect you, if your wife doesn't respect you, why should I respect you?

Yep.

And I absolutely mean that.

And I know.

so i mean everyone has like whatever problems in their marriage you know life is long and people screw up and all this stuff and i all have problems try not to be too judgmental about it but long term if your wife is not impressed by you

why should i be yep and i think that's totally fair i don't think that's judgy and and by the way it's okay if your wife doesn't respect you just don't try to control my country yeah Fair?

Yep.

Like, why should you have a leadership position?

Yep.

I don't know.

I mean, that's anyway, that's my position on it.

But

I just think it's interesting that Christianity is the one thing that

a certain sort of modern mindset won't tolerate.

Yep.

Any other religion is fine.

Christianity not allowed.

Fascinating.

And that to me is evidence that it's true.

Very good.

I like that, Tucker.

I don't know, but I'm just guessing.

But you also alluded to the spiritual battle that we are in.

Yeah.

And

anybody has a problem with the devil, with the demonic, I would encourage them to read M.

Scott Peck, the great Connecticut psychiatrist book, People of the Lie.

Amazing book.

Isn't it?

And I think he does an incredible job pointing out, if you look at the Meli massacre and you walk away saying, oh, that was just human beings messing up, you're out of touch with reality, bud.

There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the Mili massacre.

Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

That's exactly right.

And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people.

It's why Paul writes in Ephesians chapter 6, for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

There's a spiritual battle that is raging.

And whether it's Paul, Jesus, or M.

Scott Peck, they're all saying the same thing.

Open your eyes and realize there's this personal force of evil called Satan.

C.S.

Lewis put it beautifully when he pointed out: there are two mistakes you can make in your thinking about the devil.

One is to make too much of him.

Oh, the devil's behind every tree.

The devil always does it.

Everything's the result of the devil's doing.

That's to make too much of him.

But the other is to make too little of him.

Oh, you know who the devil is?

The little dude in the red jumpsuit with a little black pitchfork and black ears.

Aha ha ha ha.

What a ridiculous stereotype.

No, the devil is a very suave, very debonier personal force of evil who reeks of evil and destructiveness that's scary.

I think everything you said is true, and I think every honest person can feel it no matter what your religious faith.

We are being acted on from the outside by unseen forces all the time.

And it's our job to resist or obey, depending on the force, of course.

But the message in some ways is exculpatory, though.

I think.

I mean,

it's not

an entirely judgmental message.

It's like, actually, you are a you're being acted on by outside.

Pawn is probably too strong, but you're still.

I mean, Judas betrays Jesus and then dies.

Yep.

On the other hand, it says really clearly, he Satan enters him.

Yep.

So he's like a bad guy stealing money from the other 11 and all that for sure.

I'm not defending Judas, of course, but he is also in some sense like

he

exists to fulfill a prophecy.

He is kind of in some ways like

not fully a player.

He's, I don't want to say victim, but do you see what I'm saying?

That's an issue that a lot of people raise.

How can there be free will and God be sovereign and all-powerful?

What's going on here?

Who's pulling the levers?

Often a passage out of Exodus that's brought up is, The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart.

So did Pharaoh really have a choice in the matter?

Six times before we read in Exodus, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, we read, Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Yes, no, that's right.

So I think we've got to be careful with this one.

Yes, God is all-powerful, but I agree with C.S.

Lewis that God chose to partially limit his power by giving us a free will.

If I hold back, slap you in the face, and then say, oh, Tucker, God made me do it.

You know I'm a con artist.

I'm a hypocrite.

I'm a liar.

God gave me a hand.

He gave me the hand to respect you, to love you.

But because he gave me a free will, I can roll this hand into a fist and send it crashing into your handsome face.

And if I blame God, I'm a con artist.

I'm a liar.

So I would argue that, yes, God is all-powerful, but God has chosen to partially limit his power by giving us free will.

Why didn't God have Hitler's mother have a miscarriage?

I don't know.

Seems to me it would have saved a lot of lives.

But God has chosen to limit limit his power by giving us a free will now the day of judgment is coming when god will hold me responsible for the way i exercised my free will so i'm not just free to go out and do whatever and never be held responsible i am responsible for what i do and god will guarantee that justice ultimately triumphs for there will be a day of judgment

The lesson that I take from the Meli Masker talking about the Scott Peck book.

Did you know him, by the way?

Scott Peck?

No.

You live in Connecticut, so I just thought.

Did you?

I never met Scott Peck.

He's gone now, but amazing, amazing

and complicated person, but really insightful person.

The fact that a Connecticut psychiatrist could wind up writing a book like that.

No kidding.

Yeah.

He did not play the type.

But the lesson that I take from the Millai Massacre is these were like Callie and the rest of them, pretty ordinary guys.

Like, I don't think they had histories of mass murder before they got to Vietnam.

Yeah.

And yet they wound up committing just that and murdering women and children, and it was murder.

The lesson that I take is that, like,

any of us is capable of that, including me.

Correct.

And so, the temptation is to when you see somebody doing something really awful, like, I would never do that.

I try to remind myself, I think we all should, that like under certain circumstances, I'd probably do anything.

Yep, same here.

And

I think that's true.

Yep.

So what is that?

What does that tell us about people?

Well, this is where a lot of people have trouble with the Bible.

The whole issue of a sinful nature.

Right.

Dallas Willard used to be head of the philosophy department at USC out in Los Angeles.

And the way Dallas Willard described the sinful nature was a readiness to sin factor.

We are all born with a readiness to sin factor.

When I was six years old and playing with a little friend of mine in the sandbox,

at one point I picked up the metal truck and dropped it on the little kid's head.

I had never seen that behavior modeled before.

Did he deserve it?

No.

He offended me.

Yeah.

And I

exaggerated the offense, took too great an

offense at it and dropped the metal truck on his head.

Pretty sad.

So, yes, we're all born in the image of God.

We all have a conscience, this innate moral indicator.

But we also have this readiness to sin factor.

And that is part of the human dilemma.

And guess what?

It's part of why

Blaise Pascal believed in Jesus, because Blaise Pascal understood the glory and the wretchedness of the human being.

And it's one of the reasons I do.

My observation and my experience of reality is everybody does incredible good at times.

Yes.

And everybody does incredible evil at times.

That's correct.

I mean, I referred to my dad earlier.

Tucker, when my dad was a Swiss Boy Scout, he was walking through the Alps with his Boy Scout troop one day, and they bumped into a group of Nazi officers.

Now, I don't know if this is true, Tucker, but supposedly one of those Nazis was Adolf Hitler himself.

Hitler did not cut my dad off at the knees.

Hitler was very gracious to my father father as a little Swiss Boy Scout.

And then he went ahead and did some of the most horrible atrocities imaginable.

All of us have incredible potential for good, and all of us have tremendous potential for evil.

That's so obviously true.

And anyone

old enough to observe the world knows that.

Yeah.

Observe himself knows that.

Why did you say that people have problems with that statement?

Do you get resistance to that option?

Oh, yeah.

Because

there's a type of evolutionary optimism that says we've been evolving for a long, long time

and we're at the point where we are really good people.

Really?

Oh, is that right?

Is that right, Cliff?

Okay.

And even Rousseau,

the Frenchman, thought we were all born perfect, and it was society that corrupted us.

The fascinating thing is, Rousseau had his nanny dump five of his kids on the steps of the hospital, disowning his kids so they could either be adopted or starved to death.

Wow.

We're all born perfect.

Is that right, Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

I doubt it.

It's funny.

I mean, things have changed so much that Rousseau was taken seriously when I was a child.

We read Rousseau.

I don't think anyone knows who Rousseau is now anyway because everyone's on TikTok.

But

I think Rousseau is regarded as a villain and an idiot by most people now.

No?

Or maybe I'm just too of my own world.

No, I understand.

Can I just ask you a pause?

I just want to go back and have you flesh out a little bit more.

What kind of reactions do you get from students when you say people are not inherently all good?

Tucker, if you were my son and I were to try and convince you, Tucker, you really do have innate value, but there is no God who made you.

But you do have innate value.

You do have real value, Tucker.

Do you get it, Tucker?

You're valuable.

You're the greatest.

You are the greatest.

And I want you to go home now, Tucker, and I want you to repeat that to yourself a hundred times: I am the greatest.

I am the greatest.

I am the greatest.

And you and I live in a culture that is so filled with that type of thinking that we just have to affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves to try and convince ourselves that we really do have value.

And that's

a short walk into fantasy land.

Well, it's also so obviously not not true

that it creates a lot of inner tension and anxiety in the person who's hearing it.

Bingo.

Because you know you're not the greatest, actually.

Exactly.

And you know who you are on some level.

Maybe not all the details, but you know you're a mixed bag like everybody.

Yep.

And so to have to

live in a lie like that makes you tense.

Doesn't it?

I think it does.

I think it does also.

So when you say that, people

get their dander up.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

What do they say?

You are so judgmental, calling me a sinner.

Who do you think you are?

What do you say?

Do you support the law that says equal housing opportunity?

Do you respect a law that says I'm not allowed to be biased against people of different ethnic heritages when I rent my apartment?

Yeah, I think you do, don't you?

And so do I.

We all have to make judgments.

So please don't tell me you don't make judgments.

We all make judgments, and we better make judgments between what is good and what is evil.

Now, obviously, the difficult ethical question is, what is good and what is evil?

Where should we draw the boundary lines?

But please don't tell me that I'm being judgmental.

You're just as much judgmental as I am.

And when Jesus says, judge not, lest you be judged, he's not saying, suspend your critical thinking and blindly accept everything as equally valid.

Baloney.

14 verses later, in Matthew 7:15, Jesus says, Beware of false prophets.

They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves and they will eat your lunch, guys.

So don't be gullible.

You got to be skeptical, Jesus is teaching.

Why?

Because good and evil are so intertwined in this messed up world we live in that if you're not skeptical, you'll get ripped off.

Don't do that.

It's not smart.

So, again, you're just making the point that everybody has a kind of strict religion.

Yes.

But,

you know, only one is true, which is your position.

And the rest are just silly.

Well, I'm not trying to say that only one is true, mine, because I've made a lot of mistakes when it comes to defining right and wrong.

What I am saying is, because there's a supernatural God whose character is good,

therefore, throughout eternity, good is real.

Objectively real.

It's not a subjective taste.

It's real.

And God has hardwired you and me in such a way that we have consciences and rational minds.

And by exercising our consciences and rational minds in a responsible way, we can really begin to understand what is good and what is evil.

I mean, Tucker, to be honest with you,

the biggest ethical dilemma that I face in life is, in light of the fact that we have the solution for starving babies,

Why do I keep as much money for myself?

Why do I not give more away?

So, for me to come riding into town on some ethical high horse is a little ridiculous because I've got my own blind spots.

I've got my own prejudices.

But what I seek to do, Tucker, is to point people to Jesus Christ, to point people to have a relationship with him, to pray to him for wisdom, to ask his Holy Spirit to sensitize their consciences so they can begin to distinguish between what is good and what is evil, what is morally responsible and what is morally irresponsible?

I bet you get a lot of questions about

gays and abortion.

Yes.

So let's go in order.

What kind of questions do you get about gays and how do you respond?

My first point is I have to apologize to the gay lesbian population for the way they have been viewed as inferior pieces of dirt by certain, quote, Christians, unquote.

That is false.

Gay Gay bashing is not an option for a fall of Christ because a fall of Christ understands all people are created in the image of God.

That is the basis for our value and dignity.

Second point, the Bible insists that all of us were created for a purpose.

And according to Christ, the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.

In the same way that God made us for a purpose, he made our sexuality for a purpose.

And we read about this in Genesis 2, 24.

We read, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

So it's not the federal government that created marriage.

It's not culture that created marriage.

God did.

God created our sexuality.

God

could have had procreation happen at the end of a q-tip when a man and a woman mixed their earwax.

Little babies could have been born from that.

He didn't.

He chose to create as male and female.

And that is beautiful.

That is a precious, precious gift from him.

Now he says it's such an important gift that it's to be experienced within the context of a lifelong commitment.

You separate sex from a lifelong commitment, you're going down a destructive path, Christ says.

So

third point would be, I have perverted the gift of sex that God gave me.

Through my heterosexual lust, I have perverted that gift.

I desperately need God's grace.

I need his Holy Spirit to change me to live a sexually pure life, and that's not easy for me.

That's hard.

When anybody ever says to me, Cliff, I was born this way, I often look them in the face and say, Yeah,

I was born a heterosexual male.

Do you think my heterosexual sex drive motivates me to have sex with just one woman?

And I'm waiting for the guys to laugh.

I'm guessing not.

Yeah.

Eventually, they do laugh.

Yeah.

Obviously, we heterosexual males do not have a sex drive drive to have sex with just one woman.

Instead, we have to exercise self-control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong commitment.

That's marriage.

So,

I communicate that as clearly as I can to people.

They don't like what they hear.

And it's fascinating, Tucker, over the past 45 years to watch the gay lesbian groups on university campuses around the United States become the most highly organized, the most passionate groups on campus.

I think that's changing, though, recently, and I'm so excited over that.

But there has been a clear agenda, a very clear agenda.

And I, I mean, you don't have to agree,

of course, but I also the most hateful, I would say.

I've never dealt with anybody like that ever.

Did you, so like, but in 1980, was that a question that you got?

Oh, yes, occasionally.

And now, how often do you get it?

I think it's spiked, and it's going down.

It's not quite as prevalent.

I don't know exactly why, but I'm not being asked as often about it.

But when I aim, it can turn into a firestorm rather quickly.

I think, you know, whatever you think of it, I think people are starting to understand that's not the road to happiness.

And if it was the road to happiness, why all the hate?

That's a bad sign.

You know, people who are that hateful,

whatever they're doing isn't, isn't working right.

And that's not my fault, fault, actually.

Sorry.

Well put.

Well put.

What kind of questions do you get about abortion?

You got to be kidding me.

You're a white male and you're telling me that abortion is wrong.

Where on earth are you coming from?

White male?

What does white have to do with it?

Oh, I think that there are

certain stereotypes that exist,

and for some reason, being a white male is not cool.

I mean one of the things that spiked our popularity on tick tock was a blonde-haired woman at University of Texas came out to our open-air meeting and really went after me you got to be kidding me you a white male are standing out here telling us that we need God that we need Christ are you kidding me this is the most absurd thing I've ever seen And I said, no, wait a second, wait a second.

What does white have to do with it?

What does me being a male have to do with it?

We're talking about Jesus Christ, and I'm not Jesus.

We're talking about an historical figure who lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead.

The historical evidence is he's reliable.

I'm not asking you to join me.

I'm asking you to seriously consider Christ and to put your faith in him, for he is reliable in a way that I am not.

You don't know me from Adam.

So walk away from me.

But please read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for yourself and ask yourself, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead point to

his credibility, his trustworthiness, or not?

Well,

she didn't like it.

But it's, you know, there's so many stereotypes out there, so much prejudice.

It's incredible.

I kind of, I mean, by the way, if evolution is real, then why haven't we evolved past that?

We seem to be evolving toward it.

And I

was taught as a kid in the 70s that like prejudice like that, writing people off immediately on the basis of the way they look was like the one thing you weren't allowed to do.

Yeah.

But it has become ubiquitous.

Yep.

Yep.

So why?

Why?

I mean, in 1980,

no one could have stood up

in public and said, shut up, black man, shut up, white man, shut up, Jew, shut up, Christian.

Like, you absolutely could not say that.

But now it's just, it's everywhere.

Why?

Why is it culture committed to non-discrimination becoming ever more discriminatory in ever dumber ways?

Not discriminatory in the sense that, like, I like fish, not steak.

Yeah.

But discriminatory in like,

you know, anyone, appearance is the most important factor

about somebody.

Yeah.

I just think it's very weird.

Yep.

Well, the great man once said, I'm looking forward to the day

when my children's value is not going to be determined by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

That's like considered incredibly racist now to say that.

It's like,

and I do think it has something to do with what you so eloquently described at the outset of our conversation, which is once you stop acknowledging the human soul, which can only be granted by God, like if there's no God, there's no soul.

You're just a hunk of meat.

Once you discount that.

Then the most important thing about you becomes the way you look

or who your parents were.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Wow.

Tragic.

So

there are people matter about abort.

So Roe v.

Wade gets overturned.

It's a big deal.

We don't really talk about it that much.

Anti-abortion people lose a bunch of elections.

So it seems like the country is becoming more for abortion.

But is it becoming more for abortion?

I mean, you're kind of out there talking to people in a way that most are not.

What do you think?

I think there's a real divide.

I think there are more people who are more committed to pro-choice, and there are more people committed to, no, pro-life.

For me, the issue becomes, what does God say?

The word abortion is never used in the Bible.

No.

But we clearly read in the Ten Commandments, you shall not murder.

Yep.

So the question becomes, when does human life begin?

In every major university hospital in the United States, if a body lying on a bed in an intensive care unit has brain activity and heartbeat, doctors and nurses are legally, ethically responsible to do everything within their power to sustain that life.

And generally they do.

Good.

So between six to eight weeks after conception, that quote, little piece of skin in a woman's womb has both brain activity and heartbeat.

So I would hope that majority of us would be able to agree.

Between six to eight weeks, that's no longer just a piece of skin.

That's a human life.

It's got brain activity and heartbeat.

So let's not abort after eight weeks.

Hopefully we all can agree on that.

Then the next question is, well, what's the difference between a one-minute old fertilized egg and an eight-week old fertilized egg, an eight-day-old fertilized egg, a 60-year-old fertilized egg?

And I would argue the only difference is

in kind.

Excuse me.

The only difference is in degree of maturation,

not in kind.

It's the same thing, just a different

point along a continuum.

Exactly.

So is a one-year-old different from an 80-year-old?

Well, yeah, in lots of ways, but fundamentally, it's the same person,

still a person.

Exactly.

So

this is not a conversation that you even hear anymore.

You used to hear this conversation, the debate about when life begins.

Do you hear that conversation?

A little bit.

You're right.

It spiked a few years ago, and it's been going downhill since then.

It just seems like that debate, which is a debate about specifics,

has been replaced with slogans shouted back and forth, pro-choice, pro-life, which are phrases that I personally hate because I don't really know what they mean.

Have you noticed that?

Yep.

Correct.

How big a deal is abortion?

It's a humongous deal because we're talking about a human life.

Euthanasia, tremendous issue.

We're talking about a human life.

Oh, but they're senile.

They have dementia, Cliff.

They have Alzheimer's.

Yeah.

But they're still a human being created in the image of God.

Yeah, they're probably still more aware of the world than my two-year-old.

Can I kill my two-year-old?

Exactly.

What are you even talking about?

Right.

I mean, what?

Yep.

But the sad thing is, Peter Singer, professor emeritus at Princeton, used to stand very strongly for abortion and even killing a newly born child.

And yet I respect him because he really had a heart for the poor.

And he personally, I happen to know that he personally gave a lot of money away to feed hungry people.

So he's kind of a,

seems to me to be a confused gentleman who understands the value of human life and that we're going to feed starving people.

But if I want to destroy a newborn infant, go ahead.

I mean,

it was always amazing to me that you could have a tenured professor at an Ivy League college, which gets billions in federal funding,

advocate openly for murder.

Why not just cut off federal funding?

Bingo.

If he advocated for murdering black people or murdering Israeli settlers, they'd be like, no, we're not going to have this.

No way.

No way.

Yep.

But you can advocate for murdering kids and it's, you, you keep your funding.

I don't understand that at all.

Neither do I.

Do you think,

I mean, part of the problem with abortion is so many people have participated in it.

Yep.

And a lot of good people, by the way, I would say.

Absolutely.

Since I know a bunch of good people who have participated in abortion, we all do.

Yep.

Whether we we know it or not.

Yep.

So how do you speak to those people about it?

I mean,

it's hard if you've participated that, either had one or paid for one or been the father of a child who was aborted.

Like, it's hard to talk to people about it at that point.

They don't want to talk about it.

How do you talk to people about that?

Well, Tucker,

I've got to be brutally honest with people.

I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

Yeah.

And self-righteousness, Jesus attacks in the gospels like no other sin.

Well, that's for sure.

That's the one thing he's really mad about, I know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

The Pharisees.

Prostitutes are fine, but self-righteous people not fine.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

So we have to be very careful that we're not approaching this issue with a self-righteous chip on our shoulder.

That's for sure.

We all are broken people.

We all have feet of clay.

I certainly have blown it.

Secondly, I've received the grace of God, the forgiveness of God.

And he offers that to every single one of us, and all of us are in desperate need of it.

I mean, gosh, one of my favorite stories in the New Testament is that two thieves hung on either side of the cross of Christ.

First thief turns to come on and says to Jesus, Come on, Jesus, miracle boy from Nazareth, get us off these crosses, and then we'll believe in you.

Second criminal says, You idiot, we bleed and die here because we deserve it.

But this Jesus, he's the innocent, holy, pure Son of God.

And that second criminal looks into Christ's face and says, Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Now, it's all right in there.

Jesus says, get off the cross, work in a soup kitchen,

give me 12 Hail Marys, and I'll think about it.

No.

That's religion.

You work your way to God.

No, the opposite is what Jesus does.

He looks the guy in the face and he says, I tell you the truth.

Today you'll be with me in paradise.

See you tonight.

Exactly.

C.S.

Lewis was walking through the faculty lounge, and they were having a debate.

What's the difference between Christianity and every other world religion?

And C.S.

Lewis said, oh, that's easy.

Grace.

Every religion says, here are the rules.

Keep them.

And if you do a good enough job, maybe you'll make it.

Maybe you'll work off your bad karma well enough to attain nirvana.

Maybe you'll be a good enough boy to make heaven.

And Jesus says, No, you never will be because you will have a problem with sin.

But I bled and died on a cross to give you grace, forgiveness, and eternal life.

Trust in me.

That's why Jesus doesn't call us to a philosophy.

He doesn't call us to an institution.

He calls us to himself because it takes a personal God, a suffering God, to pay the penalty for our sin, to forgive us and to reconcile us to himself.

The last person Jesus forgives before he dies is a murderer.

Yep.

That's exactly right.

It's wild.

Isn't that wild?

It is wild.

Yep.

So if you explain that,

the very most basic precepts of your religion to someone before you tell that person actually abortion is murder.

Do you get people who can hear you?

Yes.

Correct.

Not everybody,

But yes, I notice that people begin to listen a lot more attentively.

The same way, if you give a good answer to a difficult question,

then suddenly if people are thinking, they say, ooh, I dismissed Christ because I thought he was a joke.

The evidence is he's not a joke.

I'm going to have to begin to think more deeply and seriously.

Jesus describes biblical faith as heading towards the evidence.

This whole idea that faith in Christ is anti-scientific or anti-reason is total baloney.

In John 14, verse 11, Jesus says, believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or believe me because of the miracles that point to me being the truth.

He doesn't say just believe.

He says, no, look at the miracles, buddy, and allow the evidence to drive you to faith.

Do you think that

people who, you know, participate in a murder

and don't acknowledge that it's wrong and don't ask for forgiveness for participating in it,

how do they suffer in this life, do you think?

In this life?

Oh, the penalty for sin is sin.

Sin has a way of unraveling life.

We have human consciences.

We all do.

We all have a conscience.

Now, we can sear it.

We can rationalize.

We can blame others for our sins.

But we still have a conscience.

And we have to shut that thing down in order to live with ourselves.

Or we can turn to Christ for forgiveness.

We have to shut it down in order to live with ourselves.

Interesting.

What is it?

What is it?

Can you more fully explain that?

Yeah.

I'm not very intelligent, Tucker,

until it comes to justifying whatever I want to do.

When it comes to justifying what I want to do, I'm a genius.

Yeah, I went to grad school for that.

Yeah.

Actually, did well.

Dean's list.

Congratulations.

Wow, you know.

Oh, man.

No, that's really interesting.

So

what I think you're saying is once you

accentuate, develop, hone the pattern of lying to yourself about your own behavior, it becomes

a habit.

Absolutely.

A finely tuned habit.

Yeah, well, I think we've all lived that.

I certainly have.

what about um the idea that if you do something really bad like you do suffer for it like bad things happen in your life

okay now the challenge to that is job

when job suffered his buddies came to him oh yeah and they were real smart for one week they sat there and said zippo

they just sat with him beautiful

compassion comfort integrity then they opened their mouths yeah and he went south real fast.

Yeah, they blamed him for his whole family dying.

You're a sinner, Job.

That's why you're going through this suffering.

And God was going to judge them, and Job had to pray that the Lord would not judge them for that screwed-up advice they gave him, counsel.

John chapter 9.

The disciples come to Jesus and say, hey, Jesus, this guy born blind.

Who sinned?

This guy or his mom and dad?

Jesus said, neither.

This happened that the power of God might be displayed in his life.

Does sin lead to death?

Absolutely.

Is there always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering?

No.

One of the main points of the book of Job is, life is unfair, God is fair.

Don't get the two mixed up.

The challenge when I suffer is not to clench my fist and wave it in God's face.

That's misplaced anger.

The challenge when I suffer is to understand I'm born into an unfair world.

Now, maybe I am suffering for some of my sin or from the sins of somebody else.

That's possible.

But it's also possible that because I'm born into an unfair world, the flack is hitting the fan in my life, not because of anybody sinning or me sinning, but because of the unfairness of this world.

Now, the unfairness of this world is a result of, you push it all the way back to Adam and Eve rebelling against God, telling God to get lost, and creation begins to unravel.

So yes, we're born into a world where there are horrible genetic birth defects,

and life is unraveling.

Life is unfair.

And the reason I think that's so important to remember is if I have the false expectation that life is supposed to be fair, I'm going to be really disappointed with God.

Yeah, life is definitely not fair.

There are many.

Can I hit you with some hard ones?

Go for it.

So there are all kinds of references all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation about people being chosen by God.

Well, the Jews being the chosen people being the most obvious, but it continues into

the very end of the Gospels and the end of John.

Jesus, like you all were chosen.

What does that mean exactly?

There are lots of people who weren't chosen.

Jesus's enemies died with, according to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus on them.

Is there like an elect who were just like chosen to be followers of Jesus?

And then the rest who just weren't chosen and won't be?

That seems to be what they're saying in there.

Very difficult question.

And equally committed followers of Christ disagree.

In my last sermon, I...

Sorry, sorry, Deb.

No, no, no.

I'm not sorry.

It's a great issue.

In the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration from South Africa.

In a very, very fine South African seminary, it was taught Afrikaners are the chosen people,

which means they are superior to blacks, coloreds, and Indians.

And Brits.

And Brits.

They hate the Brits.

Incredible.

Understandably.

I would argue that is a total misunderstanding of the word chosen in the Bible.

I would argue that when the Bible talks about God choosing the Jewish people, it doesn't mean all Jews are going to heaven.

It doesn't mean the Jews are superior to Gentiles.

It simply means that when God chose to reveal himself more clearly than simply through creation, general revelation,

he chose the Jewish prophets and he spoke through the Hebrew prophets.

And then when he chose to reveal himself most clearly by becoming a human being, he was born a Jew.

I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth.

It does not mean that the Jews are God's pets.

No, they're valuable human beings, created in the image of God.

But a Jewish thug is a thug.

The same way a Hamas thug is a thug.

The same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug.

The same way a Palestinian thug is a thug.

We're all human beings created in the image of God with a free will, and we are responsible for what we do.

So we've got to be real careful how we handle that word chosen.

And no, I do not think...

that God chooses certain people to go to heaven and he chooses other to go to hell.

One of the most painful experiences experiences I had was at Stanford.

I was speaking in a dorm lounge and a lot of faculty, for some reason that I don't know, showed up.

And I tried to pull those faculty out to express their worldview, their faith, whatever it was.

They refused to.

They remained totally silent.

And it was the students who dialogued with me.

But afterwards, one professor said, all right, Cliff, let's go to the

kitchen there and let's talk.

And I mean, that guy laced into me.

It was incredible.

And I mean, he called me some interesting words, and it just was really negative.

What was he mad about?

Well, that's what I didn't know until afterwards.

I went to the students who had invited me to Stanford and I said, gosh, I had the most intense discussion with your religion professor imaginable.

No one hates God more than a religion professor at Stanford.

Sorry.

What was so scary was the guy who invited me said, Cliff, that guy grew up in a home where his dad was a minister, and he had a brother.

And one day, their father looked them in the face and said, he said to the other brother, you're predestined to go to heaven.

And he looked in the face of the guy who's now the religion professor at Stanford, but this was years ago, so our doubt he's there now, and said, and you're predestined to go to hell.

Can you imagine that?

What an incredible perversion.

of the whole idea of predestination, of the whole idea of chosen or elect.

And yet here's a Stanford University religion professor who was treated that way by his own father, who was a minister.

It sounds like he was working to make it true, though.

Sounds like he was living in hell.

Yeah, doesn't it?

If he's yelling at you, yeah, for like talking about the gospel, which is like,

you know, non-violent, love-based religion.

Yeah, if you're mad about that, like there's something, you know, you're the problem, I would say.

But

not to be mean, but there does seem to be, and I, of course, could be misreading it, probably am,

but at least one section, maybe a couple, where Jesus says, you know, like, no one can come to me except those who are chosen to come to me.

I think that's what he says.

Okay, I think the language is unless the Father draws him.

Correct.

That's exactly right.

So, Tucker, if I stood here

and said to you, you know why I believe in Jesus?

Because I'm a really great guy.

And I just made the right decision.

I'm a fool.

No, I love Jesus because Jesus first loved me.

Right.

My love for him is not because I've got this love welling out of my heart and I'm just such a great guy.

No, he first loved me.

He chose me.

He drew me to himself.

I have never converted anybody.

I have simply put the gospel, the good news of God's love for you in front of people, and God's Holy Spirit works in people's hearts and they either say yes or no.

And I can't control that.

I have no desire to control that.

That's not my job.

I've got to respect a person's right to walk away from Christ or to trust in him

because God created us that way.

And when a rich young ruler, after asking Jesus how to get to heaven, finds out, he walks away with a sad look on his face.

And Christ doesn't go run after him and grab his cloak and say, oh, wait a second, bud, you got to believe in me.

No, he respects the guy enough to say, okay, that's your decision.

I respect your decision.

I disagree with it totally.

So I'm convinced that God allows us to walk away from him.

Tragic.

And God also draws us to himself by his Holy Spirit.

But look at anthropology.

Anthropology shows us that every culture has some type of religion.

So I'm convinced that the only reason an atheist doesn't find God is for the same reason a criminal does not find the police.

He's running away.

Every society is based on religion.

Pardon?

Every society is based on religion, including ours.

Ours is the trans religion or whatever it is, but it's still

an evangelical faith.

They fly the trans flag outside U.S.

embassies around the world.

I mean, I'm not for it, of course, but I mean, I recognize what it is, which is a religion.

It's a religion.

You're flying, you're flying the flag, but instead of the cross, there's a rainbow.

Do you think

my last sort of overview question for you is, since you've been doing this for so long,

do you think there's more persecution of Christians now?

Or do you think there's a revival of Christianity in the United States?

Or is there both?

Both.

Really?

Tell me what you notice.

The 20th century had more Christian martyrs than all the centuries before that combined.

Yeah, I noticed.

Yep.

That's not talked about too much.

Yeah, really?

Yeah.

Since the year 2000, over 50,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists for their faith in Christ, beheaded right outside the church.

or inside the church building.

That's tragic.

That is so sick, so sad.

And yet it's real.

And yet, I'm convinced that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

I'm convinced that to spread Christianity, I must not kill others, but be willing to die for my faith

to be killed.

And that's exactly what happened in the first, second, third century.

Yes, big time.

And when Christianity got political power, whoa,

things got really difficult, really perverted, really fast.

So as followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power.

We need to use it.

It's a gift from God.

It's a good gift from God.

But we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that minister, no, let's not pray that God is on our side.

Let's pray that we are on God's side.

And that's one of the reasons that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk.

He does not buy into Christian nationalism.

We're the best.

Nations number one.

He understands Christ is number one, and now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about following Christ in our policies, in the way we do business.

And I think that's awesome.

I think that's absolutely fantastic.

There's a huge, you use the phrase Christian nationalism, which is, I hate this term, but a hot-button phrase.

Yep.

but never really defined.

So people

can impute whatever meaning they want.

Exactly.

And the meanings differ greatly.

So if by Christian nationalism, you mean you try to make it a more Christian country, that's what you just advocated for.

Right.

If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that's an entirely different meaning, which you oppose.

Beautifully put.

Right.

So I couldn't agree with you more.

Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean

any effort to make it a more Christian country.

Correct.

Right.

And so I'm opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism, but I'm against a state religion.

Yep.

Same here.

Good.

Okay, good.

Sorry, just, but that's one of those phrases that just like evokes all kinds of connotations that you may not have meant.

So I just wanted to put a finer point on it.

And remember, Tucker, when I speak on state university campuses or Ivory League campuses, I am not speaking in an echo chamber.

The majority of people disagree.

Disagree with you.

No, you're definitely not.

The majority of people strongly disagree with you.

So when you're at Smith, I meant to ask you this.

Did you use the phrase, can I get an amen?

No.

You didn't.

Okay.

It would have been funny if you had.

I mean, just think, Tucker.

Crickets.

This February, March, April, I was at with Stewart.

Stewart and I were at Stanford, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Clemson.

Those are not echo chambers.

How long till you get stoned and not in a fun way?

Right.

I don't know.

And there are some people who I think are a little too concerned about that.

I am not concerned.

I think university campuses are still very safe places, although I know there's been some problems.

But no,

and I know ultimately, Tucker, that my life is in the hands of Christ, and I'm safe and secure.

And

I have a great deal of respect for the Apostle Paul when he writes in Philippians 1.23, I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.

And that's the hope that we have as followers of Christ.

I mean, he like wrote most of his letters chained to a wall in a dungeon somewhere.

It's exactly right, Tucker.

It's exactly right.

I know it's not a holy term, but what a badass that guy was.

Oh, no, kidding.

I mean, for real.

For real is right.

Okay, so the second half of the final question, which is about revival, there is more persecution, you believe.

I think objectively you're right.

Harder to quantify is revival.

Yes, harder to quantify.

What's your sense?

All I know is the past year,

I have met more excited followers of Christ on campuses than ever before.

I am very excited the way young people are taking Jesus more seriously.

I do not think it's a health-wealth gospel.

I do not think it's a think-positive gospel.

I think it really grapples with good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, justice and injustice, in a biblical way, not in an

elitist way in the United States.

So I am very, very excited about what's happening.

Should you run into more students who are open-minded?

Yes.

I'm getting more really personal questions.

You know, whenever things are getting a little tense in the crowds outside, all I got to do is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce, and it gets real quiet.

Really?

What do you say?

One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is because we all experience alienation.

And too many of you in this crowd right now know exactly what I'm talking about.

Because your mom and dad were so alienated from each other that they divorced.

And you don't need me to tell you how much pain that brought into your life.

And I'm sorry.

It's wrong.

It's not right.

But what I plead with you is, realize that there is a good God who wants to be your father in heaven, to really protect you, to really care for you, who has your best interests in mind.

Don't take it from me.

Read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Examine this Christ for yourself.

And you think people are open to that?

Some are not.

They've been

betrayed by their own parents.

I mean, that's what that is.

It's betrayal.

I mean, I've lived it, so I know, but that's, and many people have, at least half the country has.

that's a betrayal, that's a betrayal of the child.

Bingo, you're absolutely right again.

And you think that makes them more open to your message?

Well, yeah, because they understand alienation.

Yeah.

They've experienced the pain of alienation.

And that's why when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way, and the practical, nitty-gritty, boots on the ground description is given of forgiveness, hopefully it's going to begin to make a little more sense.

And the importance of it is going to become highlighted because they watched mom and dad who could not forgive each other and reconcile.

Yes,

that's exactly why that's interesting.

What about

drug use?

Drug use is, I mean, I thought it was bad when I was a kid.

It seems totally out of control now.

Yeah.

Why do you think that is?

Why do I think that is?

Yeah.

Well, I think drugs are very attractive if I'm in pain, It's a way to assuage the pain.

Yeah.

Why not pop a pill?

Why not get into alcohol?

I'm in pain.

I'm hurting.

And I can't stand this.

So I need some relief from the pain.

And I'll get to use drugs.

I'll use alcohol.

I'll use promiscuous lifestyle, the thrill of orgasm.

I'll do whatever it means to take care of the pain, the meaninglessness, the angst of life.

Yeah.

Christ says, come and follow me.

It's not going to be easy.

You're going to have to do some hard work.

But come and follow me and I will give you abundant life, a life that really flourishes, that's really good, when you submit to me and trust me.

And it's fun to watch more and more people begin to take Christ seriously and say, you know, I don't think drugs and alcohol are really the way to deal with my pain.

I mean, you know, I love to ask students the question, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?

Well, I like to still play basketball.

I don't really play basketball, Tucker.

I waddle out there in the court.

But there was this one guy out there in the Duquesne and YMCA who I went up to and I said, Hey, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?

He said, Let me think about it.

You asked this on the court?

On the court, yeah.

Four minutes later, the guy comes back to me and he says, Guess what?

I don't ask questions of beings I don't think exist.

Oh, I thought that was pretty abrupt, but I liked his honesty

a few weeks ago.

He comes up to me and says,

I'm I'm started to pray.

I said, really?

I thought you didn't need any.

I thought you

thought that God didn't exist.

He said,

I almost killed myself with alcohol.

I began to realize I got to pray in order to live.

I said, wow, that's great.

I'm walking out of the Y and getting in my car, and all of a sudden, from the other end of the parking lot, hey, remember, Cliff, Faith without works is dead.

That's right out of the book of James, the end of the New Testament.

So here's this kid who told me, I don't pray because I don't talk to a God who doesn't,

and I'm not going to ask you a question about God because I don't ask questions about beings I don't think exist.

Now he's gone to, now I pray, and now he's gone to quoting the book of James to me.

I'm not surprised.

I'm not.

It's the people who are mad at God who come around to God much more often than the people who just don't even think about it.

Someone comes up and is like, I don't think God exists.

Wow, God.

Oh, you're God.

he's clearly mad yeah and that suggests an internal tussle yes with his pre-existing from birth deep knowledge that of course god exists and knows that yeah and he's like fighting it and anyone who's fighting is probably in the end gonna submit

that's my instinct on it anyway same here that's why when when people really go after me out in the open air um and people come you know humble people come up afterwards and say cliff are are you all right i mean i mean that guy was awful mad.

He was awful offensive, wasn't he?

I'm saying, wait a second.

I respect the guy totally.

He put right out on the table what he believes, what he doesn't believe.

I loved it.

I love every minute of it.

Yeah, it's always people like that.

It's the person who's like, I've never thought of that before.

You know what I mean?

Like, what does that have to do with my job at the bank?

People like that, you have a lot less hope of enlightenment for them

than the guy who's wrestling with God.

Yeah.

Last, final question.

Are you hopeful for the future of the country?

Yes, I am.

Because I, as a follower of Christ, understand that God is ultimately sovereign.

History is not a string of accidents.

History is ultimately God's story.

He began it in the beginning.

God created the heavens and the earth, and he's going to bring it to a close when Jesus Christ returns in power and great glory.

Billy Graham was playing golf with President-elect Kennedy, and after their golf game, Kennedy was driving them back to their residence.

And all of a sudden, Kennedy pulls the car off to the side of the road and looks at Dr.

Graham and says, do you really think that Christ is going to return a second time?

Graham swallowed hard and said, well, the Bible teaches that, and all the church creeds teach that.

So, yes, I do believe that.

This was pre-Vatican II, before they were reading the Bible a lot in Catholic churches.

No, it's true.

It was.

Good point.

Yeah.

Very good point.

And gosh, am I ever excited about about the number of Catholics that are starting to read the Bible now?

A lot.

A ton.

Yeah, no.

I am ecstatic over that development.

Sorry for

interrupt, but not to defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard that before.

That's the whole message of the New Testament, but he'd never heard it.

That's exactly right.

Well, just think: if you have a worldview that says there is no God,

history is a string of accidents.

And history is going to end when we all blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear holocaust or when the sun burns out and we all freeze to death.

Entropy.

No.

Jesus Christ insisted that history is going to end when he returns in power and great glory.

That is why I, as a follower of Christ, have hope for the future.

Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life.

He who believes in me will live, even though he dies.

We as followers of Christ affirm life more than anybody.

Because we know that there's eternal life out there.

We as followers of Christ want to work harder to change our country, to change our world.

Because you don't work on roads that lead nowhere.

And life is not a road that leads nowhere.

Life is a road that leads to eternal life in heaven when you trust in Christ.

So you begin to get involved in politics.

You get involved in your corporation.

You get involved in your family.

Because you know that life is significant.

And you know that there's an incredible future out there.

Because ultimately, Jesus is going to return a second time.

Ultimately, Jesus reigns.

Cliff, I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Tucker, I can't thank you enough for the awesome privilege.

Thank you for your honesty and your openness, your hospitality.

My deep theological questions.

Not very deep.

But thank you.

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