Cheryl Hines: Stories From “Curb Your Enthusiasm” and Sticking by RFK on His Way to the White House

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Cheryl Hines, thank you for thank you for coming all the way out here.

You, we were talking at breakfast.

Your life, the trajectory is like pretty amazing.

You are very far from where you started.

That is true.

Where did you start?

I started in Florida, in Orlando, Florida.

You know, I grew up in Orlando and Tallahassee.

And then one day I drove my Toyota Torcelle across the country to Los Angeles.

By yourself?

No.

I was dating a guy and I said, you know, I'm moving to L.A.

And when it came time to move, he was very sad.

And I, and he said, can I ride with you?

And I said, please don't.

And he said, no, please, please.

I just want to get out of, I want to see the country.

I've never seen the country.

And

so we broke up and then we drove across the country together.

That's awkward.

It was very awkward.

Why did you move to LA?

Why did I move to L.A.?

Yeah.

Because I knew I was going to move to, because I always wanted to be an actress, and I knew it was going to be New York or LA, but I knew two people in LA.

One guy from my high school and another guy who was a family friend,

one of my brother's best friends.

So I knew two people.

So I thought, okay, then that makes more sense, LA.

Were they like at CIA?

Were they like powerful agents, those two people?

No.

No, no, not at all.

Well, actually,

so

one of my best friends, Paul Beckett, he had, we ended high school together and he moved out there and he was a professional

background actor.

What's a background actor?

Like an extra.

Is that what they call him?

Background actor?

Yes.

Yes.

What is that life like?

He loved it because it was,

it was, you know, day-to-day.

You get a project.

You don't have to prepare much.

You just show up.

Lines to memorize.

No no lines to memorize.

You know what?

The hardest thing about doing background work.

Have you ever done background work?

No, I've been in the background at a lot of events, but I've never been paid for it.

It's harder than it seems because,

you know, if you're shooting a party scene and you're background, you have to stand behind the main actors and act like you're talking, but you can never say anything.

So it's a lot of

well, you can't actually speak out loud.

No, you can't speak out loud but you just you just uh you act like you're talking and you make eye contact with the person that you're talking to and then you take turns mouthing words but try not to look crazy doing it that sounds really hard actually it's hard

i found it to be hard oh you did it oh yeah because you have to do it as an actor too because sometimes

you know you're shooting something in the per in somebody else's coverage and so they ask you not to actually say words out loud while they're doing their dialogue.

And even like clapping.

Usually, when you see people clapping, they're not actually making noise.

Seriously.

Hey, put that in later.

Yeah.

Do they have like hand muffs to keep it from?

No, you're just a professional and you know not to

touch.

Not to touch.

So how did you go?

So you show up not knowing anybody except one extra who went to your high school and then you wind up succeeding.

How hard is that?

It was hard.

Yeah.

It was hard.

I,

you know, I got a bartending job, which actually was also hard.

You wouldn't.

Yeah, it's a hard job.

It's a hard job.

And in L.A., it was hard to get a job as a bartender or as a waitress because everybody's doing that because everybody is trying to, you know, get a job as an actor or writer.

So even to get those jobs are hard in LA.

But I've managed to get a job in this hotel in downtown LA.

It was the Intercontinental.

I think they've changed it since then, but

so that was good.

I did that.

And then it just, that it took a year for me to work in that, in that hotel, in that bar,

to just sort of get used to LA.

And

at that time, you would send out your headshot and resume to all of the agents in town and hope that somebody would be interested in, just from looking at your picture, be interested in meeting with you.

And I

didn't do it.

I wasn't ready for the rejection because I thought, what if I send out

a picture and resume to every agent in this town and none of them want me?

I wasn't ready.

I didn't have a plan.

What would be the plan?

So until I was ready with that,

that form of rejection, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

How did you get, how do you prepare for that kind of rejection?

A lot of self-pep talks.

You know, when you're, I would just say, okay, what's going to happen?

This is probably going to happen.

Probably not one person is going to respond.

And who, who are you going to be?

Is it going to change you if nobody responds?

And for the first year of my life there, I thought, yeah, it'll change me.

It'll break me.

It'll, this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do.

So, but, but after I was there for a while, I, I realized, okay,

my self-worth doesn't depend on if somebody looks at my picture and decides they want to

represent me or not.

So I finally got to that place where I realized, okay, life is going to go on.

I'm going to be the same person.

I'm still going to be an actress.

I'll just have to do it a different way.

And this was before you'd sent a single headshot to a single agent.

That's pretty self-aware.

Well,

I guess I just didn't want to.

I didn't want to,

even though

it was the only thing I wanted to do.

It's the only thing I've ever wanted to accomplish.

And I thought, well, is my life going to be over at 25?

If I can't, am I going to let them decide if I'm successful or not, these agents?

So, yeah, I had to

get to that place.

So, then,

how did you get in?

Well, then

I sent them all out and I did get a response.

And

let's just say

it wasn't one of the big agencies.

But, was it a legitimate agency?

I'll say yes.

There are so many agencies in Los Angeles.

And really, there are a handful that are.

I mean,

there are a lot that are legitimate, but there are really only a handful that are powerful.

Yes.

It wasn't one of the powerful ones.

As a matter of fact, I was, I was, I wasn't getting any auditions.

They never sent me out on one audition.

But remember the Tanya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan?

Yes.

Very well.

And Jeff Galluli.

Yes.

And Jeff Galluli.

And so there was a,

you could, you used to be able to see the breakdowns for what they were casting.

They would come out on something.

So I would read the breakdowns to see what people were casting for.

And at the time, people were telling me I looked like Nancy Kerrigan.

Yeah.

So I thought, okay, well, maybe I should, there was a TV movie for this for Tanya Hardy and Nancy Kerrigan.

So I thought I should at least go in.

And so I knew my agent

was not submitting me, or if they did, nobody's opening that.

Or I thought they probably weren't.

So I

put my headshot and resume in.

I put a post-it on my picture that said,

you should see her for nancy exclamation point i didn't sign it because i didn't want anyone to think that

that i was uh

doing anything underhanded and then i for the return address i put my agent's address and i got called in

wait you pitched yourself on behalf of your agent that's correct did your agent get a cut of the fee well i didn't book it

but my agent but my agent called was like guess what

i've got an audition for for you.

I was like, uh-huh.

About Nancy Carriot.

Actually, but I did have a really good audition.

And

I may have been called back because there was a lot of talk about ice skating.

Did I know how to ice skate?

And growing up in Tallahassee, probably a pretty good ice skater.

You didn't play hockey.

I'm a great ice skater.

And I said,

But you do, you know, I know.

Of course, I know how to ice skate.

And they were like, okay.

I think I got called back because when I got called back,

I do remember

there were

four girls that looked a lot like Tanya Harding and four girls that look like a, a lot like Nancy Kerrigan.

And I was just sitting in this room just looking around like, wow, this is weird.

I think you'd rather be on the Nancy Kerrigan side.

I guess.

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Thank you.

So, what was the first actual part

that you got?

Um,

well, that's when I was living in Orlando.

I, it was for,

it was for Swamp Thing,

the TV show, inspired by the movie.

Okay.

Swamp Thing.

I missed the whole Swamp Thing genre.

Yeah, it's too bad.

Was it a straight to video at Enterprise or what was it?

What, Swamp Thing?

Yeah.

The movie?

Yeah.

No, it was a hit movie.

Actually?

Yes.

Yes.

Wow.

I'm embarrassed.

You should be.

Sorry.

I was in boarding school, I think.

Yeah.

No movies.

You guys weren't allowed to watch that.

And then the TV show, I was

an evil scientist.

And

in the show,

I

am holding a gun.

I'm like about to shoot another scientist.

And

I hear a beeping sound

because earlier in the episode, episode, I had pulled the plug on my stepfather's life support machine.

And now I'm hearing a beeping sound and it's driving me crazy.

And then I

drop the gun, I clutch my heart and I die.

And

I said to the director, I said, before we shot it, I said,

just so I'm clear, what exactly am I dying of?

I mean, I know, you know, we're talking about telltale heart where the beeping beeping is driving you crazy.

And can anybody else hear it?

All of that.

I said, but what is the thing that's actually killing me?

And he said, Cheryl, we don't have time for this.

What you just need to

drop the gun.

And then the gun handler, who, you know, was somebody on set that's there for gun safety and shows you how to handle the gun.

He was like, please don't drop the gun.

He said, if you could, just, can you, can you lay it on the couch on your way down to the floor?

I was like, oh, okay.

So I had to.

He said, the director was like, just clutch your heart.

It's, I said, so a heart attack.

And he's like, that's fine.

Yeah.

Let's say, that's fine.

We got to go.

So that was my, so I died.

Big death scene.

Exciting.

And that was my big first role.

That's why I moved to LA because you were hooked.

Well, because I,

this was my springboard to stardom.

no i'm not i'm not mocking oh because i just got i just got this role and there was nothing else really shooting in orlando probably not so i thought okay this is a good time to go to la

swamp thing is gonna come out

the agents in la are gonna see it

and my phone will ring off the hook um And then I called my sister because she was still in Orlando

when it came out.

And I said, so did you, did you watch it?

How was it?

Because, you know, we were three hours

later, earlier, later.

And she said, you should start drinking now.

So we did.

Then we had a Swamp Thing watch party.

And it was fun.

Let me, I mean, it was, this was not like

nobody got golden globes from Swamp Thing.

No one.

No, no, no.

And my phone didn't ring after.

So how long did it take you from the day you got to LA till you thought I'm successful now?

10 years.

10 years?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

How predatory is L.A.

It feels that way to me.

In what way?

It feels like there's a lot of ambitious people people and then there are a lot of people with power taking advantage of those ambitious people.

That's the way it feels.

There is definitely that.

There is definitely that.

I had one experience that I actually talked about in my book, Unscripted,

where there was a director

that approached me and said,

will you meet me in my hotel room?

I want to talk to you about a film.

And at that point, I had a different agent.

I had a better agent.

And

I, and I was on curb at the time.

And I said, Well,

I talked to my agent and I said, You're on curb your enthusiasm when he called you.

You know what?

I think I think we had shot it, but it hadn't aired.

Okay.

Oh, because I met him

in

a drugstore in LA.

Yeah.

I mean, he, this, this person has since been

well, exposed, if you will.

Um,

and he came up to me and said, Oh,

you know, I mean, I guess I could tell you the name.

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, it's James Toback.

James Toback.

So he wrote, um,

what did he write that a Bugsy?

He wrote the film Bugsy.

He's a successful director, writer.

And I thought, well, this is a legitimate person.

And my agent said, I think you should meet him.

And I said, even if it's at

in his hotel room, it's a little weird.

How about the polo lounge or what?

Yeah.

And

he said, you know,

people do this all the time.

This was a while ago.

This was a while ago.

This was probably what I was, this was probably how long ago?

20 years ago.

No, no, more than that.

25 years ago, at least.

And

I felt strange going into a man's hotel room on a Friday night.

So I asked my friends to come with me.

I said, will you guys wait in the polo lounge?

I said, this is.

Oh, it was in the Beverly Hills Hotel.

Yes.

Well, that's just perfect.

Am I allowed to say that?

And then I gave him the room number.

I said, if you don't hear from me in whatever it was, 30 minutes, come knock on this room because I don't know if I'm going to have phone reception.

I don't know what's going to happen.

Probably, it's probably all going to be fine.

But if you don't hear from me, just come to the room.

And so, when I got to his room, I said,

just so you know, I have my friends are waiting for me downstairs.

And,

you know, he said, okay, or whatever.

I did not get the vibe that it was a

weird situation.

And then he starts talking.

And then he's, you know, telling me, you really have to

be willing to step out of your comfort zone as an actor.

You have to, you know, he's asking me, do you feel like you can do that?

And I, well, of course I can.

I'm a, I'm an actress.

I'm, I'm a trained actress.

This is what I, we do all the time.

And so then he, then he starts asking me strange questions.

Like what?

Do I have a lot of body hair?

Do you have a lot of body hair?

Wow.

And I.

That's not usually part of the woo.

It's really not.

And I thought that's crazy.

That's

for an opening line.

That doesn't seem effective to me.

Does that, I'm not a woman, though.

Does that work?

Oh, yeah.

I fell madly in love that night.

We had tons of kids and we're happy.

And you know what?

I was like, okay, well,

I can't say that I do.

I'm like looking at the hair on my arms.

I'm like, you can't really see it.

I don't know.

I don't know where this is going, you know?

And then he says, you want to take off your shoes and get comfortable?

I said, oh, I'm comfortable.

And he said,

you don't want to take off your shoes?

And I said,

I don't.

I'm totally comfortable.

Don't worry about me.

And I was wearing boots.

And he said, will you, he said, why don't you take off one boot?

Come on.

And at this point, I'm like, men are so creepy.

I'm

like, one boot.

And I'm thinking to myself,

why one boot?

Like, where is this going?

Why would it be one boot?

But for whatever reason, I was sort of intrigued.

Like,

why one boot?

So I took off one boot.

I left my sock on.

And then he starts talking again.

And then my friends knock on on the door.

And I said, oh,

that must be my friends.

And he looked at me like, what are you talking about?

And I, I went and I opened the door and they were all, it was like a, it was like an episode of friends where they're all, all their heads are in the doorway.

Like, Cheryl, one of my friends looked at my

feet and he said, where's your boot?

I said, oh,

it's over by the couch.

And he goes, get your boot.

We're going.

And they were all like, yeah, get your boot.

You're out of here.

And I said, Yeah, it is weird, isn't it?

And they said, Yeah, it's weird.

It's so weird.

And then I left.

Did you ever talk to him again?

No, but

you know, he was sued by a lot of women because he would,

this is what he'd do.

He would,

because he is a successful person, director, writer, he would go up to women in New York and LA

and say, I'm James Toback.

You must know me.

Why don't you come over to my place?

I want to work on something with you or show you a script or whatever.

And

oh,

and his

thing was apparently that he

liked feet.

Yeah, that is a thing.

And

he would

manipulate these women, overpower them, and

do sexually

provocative things.

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From the Netflix series, D.Upshaws.

Get ready for Mike Apps.

You got to keep on reminding your girl how sexy she is, because if you don't, her work husband's gonna tell her.

That's why you gotta pop up on your girl's job sometime.

Yeah, uh-huh.

Where's she at?

You looking for that work husband.

That's the first dude that you say to say, You looking for Cheryl?

Like, no, I'm looking for you.

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Yeah, I don't see feet as sexually provocative.

Maybe I'm the weirdo.

No, same.

And in the moment,

I don't know.

It never occurred to me that this would

never occurred to me that

this is a weird guy who's trying to,

you know, do something sexual.

I mean,

it,

I guess it was a, it's sort of a slow

burn, you know, because a lot of stuff you do as an actor is weird.

There, there are a lot of things that are

not normal, that are odd, that are out of your comfort zone.

You know, you're showing up on a set and kissing a person that you just met, and that's that's part of your job.

If that's your your role, that's the scene.

So there are things that happen that are just strange and

also normal at the same time.

So, you know, taking one boot off,

I just didn't think that that was

that the script called for that.

No, I didn't, I had no idea if the script would go for that, but I didn't, um,

I can understand how

a woman that's in a spot like that, it's a very vulnerable place for them to be.

And if I didn't have my friends on the other side of the door,

I don't know what would happen.

I don't know what would have happened.

I don't know.

But anyway,

what was your question?

It was, it was something about

taking advantage.

Yeah, are there predators in Hollywood?

And I think you've.

And that's my predator story.

So, how did you wind up on curb your enthusiasm?

Well,

I started studying at the Groundlings Theater

in LA, which is

an improv and sketch comedy theater.

And I was studying improv and performing.

And at that point, I had gotten a better agent.

And

I started to go out on auditions.

I was auditioning for different pilots,

different TV shows.

And I got called in to do, to audition for a one-hour special.

They were just calling it the Larry David

unscripted or untitled special.

And so

I

went in and I, well, I was going to, I was scheduled to audition and then they called me and they said, we're running behind because there's no script.

It's all improvised and it's taking longer than we thought.

I don't know when you're going to be able to go in.

And then that night, I was performing in

a sketch comedy show.

And

I was performing a sketch that I had written.

And

the

producer, director of the whatever

show was in the audience and really liked the sketch and thought that

my sense of humor and Larry's would match up.

You didn't know him.

I never met him.

Did you know who he he was?

You know, I knew that he co-created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld.

That's all I knew.

Yeah, he was not a public figure.

I didn't know what he looked like.

I didn't know anything about him.

And so I wasn't, it was probably good that I didn't because I wasn't intimidated because I didn't even know who he was.

I knew he was a lot older than me.

And I knew I was going in to play, to audition for his wife.

And I felt like, I'm,

I don't know if I'm right for this part, but I'll go in and try to have a great audition and see what happens.

Maybe there's a different part, you know.

And then,

uh,

and then when I walked in,

I mean,

the sketch that

sort of opened the door for me

was about

a woman

in her workplace, and this guy comes in to

do a safety,

like go over safety procedures in an earthquake.

And everybody in the office seemed to know what to do in case of an earthquake.

And they were answering all the questions, right?

Oh, if

do you light a match after an earthquake?

And somebody said, no, because there could be a gas leak.

and I'm thinking whoa how did they even know that and you know should you walk around without shoes on no because there could be broken glass and then they said what do you do if your um water supply runs out and I said well if push comes to shove you can drink your own urine

and my coworkers were like that that's gross I said well

I mean, I don't.

And they said, that's really gross.

And so the rest of the sketch was

they're trying to move on, you know, okay, let's

do you call your friends?

And I go, just to be clear, I don't drink my own urine.

I'm not, I never, I'm not going to come home and drink my own urine.

And they're like, we, we get it.

We've got to finish this seminar.

And I, and I won't let it go, you know, at the, and I said, look.

I'm going to say right now, I'm not going to drink my own urine.

Even

if

there is an apocalypse and the only way to survive is to drink your urine, I'm not drinking my urine.

I want you guys to know right now, I'm not drinking my urine.

So that was the sketch that Bob Whitey

saw that, and he brought me in the next day to meet Larry.

And then when I walked in for the audition, he said, oh, the urine girl is here.

So that's the sketch that you wrote.

Yeah, that's the sketch.

Well, that does sound like something from Kirpur Enthusiasm.

So Bob thought that Larry would appreciate.

that sort of sense of humor.

Yeah, well, that turns out to be a perfect match.

Yeah.

How long were you on that show?

The show was on for 24 years.

24 years?

It took 24 years.

Yes, and there were 12 seasons.

So there were some seasons when there were some, there was like a four hour, a four hour, a four year break between some seasons.

It was, it wasn't consecutive like most TV shows.

Why?

Because it was Larry David and

Larry wanted to only do shows when he felt inspired.

Smart.

Yeah.

So he felt like after, even after the first season, I thought that was the end of the show because he said that was the end of the show.

And

then I get a call and say, oh, we're going to do another season.

I was like, that's amazing.

So every season it was like that.

And then one time I got a call from him and he said,

I've got some bad news.

I said, okay.

And he said, we're going to do,

we're going to do another season, but you're not going to be in it.

I said, okay, I mean, that's okay.

And

then they did a season in New York that I wasn't in.

And in the show, Larry and I had gotten divorced.

And then the season after that, he brought me back into the show as his ex-wife.

But it was over 24 years that all this took place.

That's wild.

So, you got to know him well, of course.

What's he like?

Um,

well, of course, he's very, very smart,

very funny.

Um,

he's very caring,

no, it doesn't seem like it, but he's he's very caring about

people close to him.

And

he's neurotic.

Yeah, so basically.

I'm not breaking news.

So basically.

It's real.

It's a lot of it's real.

Yeah.

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24 years is a long time to spend with the same people.

Yeah.

Did you get along with all of them?

I did.

Really?

Yeah.

I loved all of them.

I mean, I still do.

And our crew, we would have, we had a few crew members that were with us from the beginning.

You know, and it was very sweet too, because

there was so much time that was passing and

we all were, we had kids and then we watched our kids grow up.

And then we, you know, some cast members would have their kids as interns on the show.

So it was sweet, you know, they were just a real part of my life.

Yeah, it sounds like that was a lot of your adult life.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

And you met your husband through the show or through Larry?

Yeah, through Larry.

I made I met Bobby, Robert Kennedy Jr.

through.

I mean, Larry just introduced us.

You know, I, Larry and I went to a water keeper event and he just introduced me to Bobby, not in any way

like you guys should,

you know, have anything to do with each other.

It was just like, this is Cheryl, this Bobby.

So that was the first time I met him.

Yeah.

What'd you think?

I thought he, I thought he was nice.

He, you know,

he was a great speaker.

Bobby was a great speaker.

I saw him speak at the event.

And also, I just remember, oh, that's a pleated khakis guy.

A pleated khakis guy?

Yeah.

You know, a guy that wears pleated khakis.

Is that a plus or a minus?

Well, hmm.

Is it a plus or a minus?

I think growing up in Tallahassee, I

had a lot of guy friends that

wore pleated khakis.

And it was kind of a, it reminds me of a, hmm,

like a football coach type of a.

It's to me at the time, it felt like not a creative type person that I was used to.

I don't know if that makes sense.

The pleated khakis are the not, they're the more non-creative.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I don't think pleated khakis exists anymore.

I'm glad.

I am too.

That was a sad face in most countries history.

I agree.

I mean, listen, they weren't good for guys or girls.

Right.

I agree.

I never fell for it.

I'm not bragging.

That's good.

So, yeah, so what I forgot that even happened.

It was burning into my brain.

It was.

So it was part of the appeal, I got to fix this.

No, I mean, that part of the thing was just like, oh, he's a pleated khakis guy.

You know, okay, that's nice.

Yeah.

So, but yes, then when years later, when we got together, I

was.

Oh, it was years.

Oh, yeah.

Because when I met him,

he was, he was married.

I was married to different people.

So it was not at all like,

there was no spark or interest or anything like that.

It was just a casual acquaintance.

And, and then

I stayed involved with Waterkeeper

and I would see Bobby once a year, I think, at a Waterkeeper event.

And it was, he was always pleasant, always nice, but I really never even spoke to him that much because it was always a big event.

And

then

I got divorced.

He got divorced.

We were going through divorce.

I was going to see him and I thought, oh, this is interesting.

Like

six years later, however long,

it'll be interesting to see him because it's hard.

It's hard going through a divorce

and it's hard even talking to somebody about it because nobody, unless you're going through it, and

nobody wants to talk about it.

No, that's right.

And even if you're going through it, you might want to not want to talk about it.

But anyway, when I saw him, I said, how are you doing?

And he said, good.

I said, how are you really doing?

And he said,

good.

Well, we should talk.

I said, okay.

And then, then, and then we started talking, and I just

was really the first time I talked to him as a person, as a

and he was uh,

very, very dynamic.

You know, he's a dynamic person, and I just saw him in a different way for the first time.

And I

uh,

I was really taken with him.

What did your friends think?

They, you know, my friends,

they thought it was fun.

But, you know, at the time, Bobby was living in New York.

I was living in LA.

Bobby was an environmental attorney and

everybody loved him.

I remember.

Except for the big corporations that he was suing.

Yeah.

So,

you know, it was just a kind of a fun

situation.

And they wanted to hear the highlights, you know, my friends.

But it wasn't, it didn't seem like it was going to be anything

permanent.

So I don't know, but it was just

didn't seem like a big thing at first.

Yeah.

Well, a lot of things start that way.

Yeah.

So then you marry him.

You're famous.

He's famous.

It's probably easier to marry someone who understands what that is, I would think.

Seems like it.

I understand why people.

I mean,

it has its

pluses and minuses, right?

Of course.

Because probably two people that

are known, are you know,

well known or whatever that looks like.

They're only known in certain circles.

So I don't know.

There are probably

two famous people that feel somebody feels left out while the other person's shining or whatever that looks like.

So there might be that.

I know that should be true with friends that are actors, you know, two actors together and sometimes, or a director and an actor, and their career is doing great and the other one is you know at a different pocket in their career that can be tough but it was good for me and Bobby because

we were in different worlds completely yeah

and I remember early on when

we were going through the airport together and somebody stopped him and said

you know what you're doing is amazing

What you're doing is so important for the environment, for our country,

for people, for people's health.

Thank you so much.

Almost in tears.

And I said, wow, that was really nice.

And then we keep going through.

And then this guy said, oh my gosh, that diarrhea scene that you did in the car wash,

that killed me.

And I was like, thank you.

And I look at Bobby like, haha, you're not the only one.

So we had a, it was fun getting together with him in that way.

And then he moved out to L.A.

Well, Well, then he asked me to marry him.

And I said, I don't, I don't really want to get married if we're going to live in different states.

Fair.

Right.

And he said, okay, I'll come out there.

Wow.

I mean, I'm making it sound easy.

It wasn't an easy decision, but yeah, that's what happened.

And just from the outside looking in, things go great and then COVID happens.

And Bobby goes from being controversial to being really controversial.

Yes, you can say that.

Yeah.

Fair.

That's very fair to say.

And more love, too.

Not just more hated, but

more prominent.

Also more prominent and

started really speaking to a lot of people.

And

it was hard too, being in LLA or challenging, perhaps,

because

I would say the majority of the people in LA

that I was encountering

did not agree with him.

And they could not imagine anybody agreeing with him.

But the reality was

there were

millions of people across the country that did were agreeing with him.

Oh, yeah.

But it was hard to see that in LA, but that's what was happening.

Did anyone say anything, anything to you about it?

Like at work?

Yes.

What did they say?

Um, I'm so impressed by how brave your husband is.

Actually, I did get some of those.

I bet you did.

Um, I got, I did get some of those, um, but I also got what is he doing?

Um,

you've got to stop him.

Um,

you've got to stop him.

I got a lot of that.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Like it's,

you know, the whole,

I can't believe I'm the first one saying it.

The whole vaccine issue.

People were so

passionate about it one way or the other.

And the people

And there were a lot of people that felt like

if we don't all take this vaccine, we're all going to die.

And if you don't take it, you're going to kill us.

So

people really felt like that and would tell me that.

Actually?

Yeah.

You know, I didn't have very strong feelings about vaccines one way or the other my whole life.

I never really thought about it.

I didn't realize that it was a religion to a lot of people.

And political.

Well, but that, you know, it's a religion because that doesn't make any sense.

If the vaccine is effective and you take it, it, then you're good to go.

Right.

Why does it matter if I take it?

Somebody else does it.

Did anyone?

I heard smart people make that case, people I thought were smart, but it doesn't make any sense just on the face of it.

No, it doesn't make any sense.

And that, and that wasn't enough for people.

It wasn't.

No, it wasn't enough for

someone to be able to take the vaccine and feel like, woo, I'm, I'm okay now.

I don't care what you do.

Right.

It wasn't enough.

So the my body, my choice was not a real thing, it turned out.

No, no, it was like, and I wouldn't, I need to get involved with your body.

Yeah, it's your body, my choice.

Your body, my choice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And feminism is also obviously fake because why would you hold a woman responsible for her husband's views?

That's a fair thing.

If you were a feminist, you'd be like, well, you know, you're a...

a human being like with autonomy and stuff and you're responsible for your views, but your husband is a different person, not the same as you.

And he's got his views, so they're not your fault, right?

That's one would think, but that's also not the case.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How did

so as, but this went on and on and on.

It wasn't like a flu season.

It was like years and it got more intense.

Yes.

What was that like for you?

It was stressful.

It was stressful.

And it was loud.

You know, it felt like

the conversation was loud.

And it was, you know, what was really hard, I thought, was

like, like I said, both sides, I felt like both sides were pretty loud.

And so even if you would find out that maybe somebody had passed away,

it seemed like both sides wanted to know, was that, was that person vaccinated?

Was that the reason?

They weren't, or is that the reason?

And it

and it made me sad because

I had several friends that passed away during that time.

And

it felt like we were talking about the wrong things at the meeting.

What did you think?

It's like, wow.

Why aren't we talking about the person that just passed away and who they were and how they affected our lives, you know?

So I hated it.

I hated it.

How can I use other people's deaths to score political points?

Yeah, I hated it.

Yeah, well, good.

So that was hard.

That's a measure of your decency that you hated that.

Thank you.

No, it is.

It is.

Someone dies, you should take a moment.

Mourn the person's death.

That's what it's all about.

Who was that person?

How do they remain in your life?

Yes.

And what do they leave behind?

Exactly.

But when it goes quickly from

you skip over that conversation, it was just

hard.

I think it was hard for people to accept that vaccinated people ever die because it's magic and you live forever when you get a vaccine.

And I think they were like, oh, there's got to be some way to explain that.

Like, how could a vaccinated person die?

Well, it felt like both,

it felt once again, it felt like both sides were,

well, yes, they got the vaccine and then they got COVID, but they would have died if they did get the vaccine.

Or, you know, it's sort of like you could

fit different scenarios into your own narrative,

which was also annoying.

And you know, studies, somebody talks of studies.

Well, I can show you a study that shows this, I can show you a study that shows that.

And it's just about back and forth.

And

it's like being in a courtroom and you're watching both sides.

You have an expert.

And the expert will say 100%:

you know, if you pick up this glass, you will die.

And then the other experts say, 100%, that is not true.

Here's a study that shows something completely different.

So

it just felt like there was a lot of that going on.

It still is a lot of that going on.

Instead of,

to me, what I

what I have a hard time understanding is instead of

always pointing the finger and saying, you're wrong.

You better listen to me.

You're wrong.

Instead of that and two people saying, okay,

let's talk about this because it is a problem.

Right.

There's a huge problem here.

It's a crisis.

A lot of people are

suffering.

How can we figure it out?

Like, show me what you've got.

I'll show you what I've got.

Let's,

is there a cross-section?

Why aren't these two sides working together?

That's what I don't understand.

Well, it's helpful to begin the conversation with here, here's how I've been wrong.

And then everyone calms down.

You know, does anybody start with that?

It works.

It does work.

Yeah, because it's the ultimate display of good faith.

I've been wrong, and here's how.

And then you de-escalate immediately.

But when you begin with, you know, here are the eight things I don't like about you.

Yeah.

It doesn't go very far.

So at this time, your husband is at home writing The Real Anthony Fauci,

an amazing book, bestseller,

despite long odds.

And what was that like?

Did you talk to him about it as he was writing it?

There was a lot of Anthony Fauci talk in our house for good reason.

Of course, he's pro or con.

And there was a, you know, he worked really hard on it and he

spent a lot of time

citing sources in that book.

Yeah, I noticed.

So, you know, there were a lot of days that were just filled with

citing sources by, you know,

this article, that study, this goes in page two, this goes in.

So it was, it took up a lot of space in our lives.

Yeah.

I mean, there are thousands of footnotes in that book, and it's a very long book.

Yeah.

So it was, uh, I,

you know,

was it important?

Yes.

Was it joyful?

No.

Yeah.

Wasn't like.

No spouse of a writer is ever happy about books.

Yeah.

I've had children cry to me when I'm going to write a book, another book.

Yeah, everyone cries.

Yeah, it's very unhappy.

No, I know.

It is hard to write a book, isn't it?

It's awful, but it's terrible for the people around you.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I'm very aware of that.

I've received that feedback.

I hear you.

Sitting alone in your office.

Try to do better.

Smoking, feeling angry.

No, no, I, yeah, no, I know that well.

So

were you ever worried that, I mean, this is getting more and more and more controversial.

You, you marry this man and you're in separate worlds, as you said, and that's a wonderful thing.

He's a star in his world.

You're a star in your world.

They don't really collide.

They don't.

They don't intersect.

No, they don't.

And people in your world think Bobby Kennedy is pretty cool because he's like a Kennedy and they're like sort of, you know, Democratic Party royalty and he's liberal in a wholesome way and like not a scary liberal, but like a do-gooder liberal.

Yeah.

Like everyone kind of likes that.

Yeah.

Clean matter.

And you're on the coolest show in America.

And of course, everyone loves that.

And all of a sudden, everyone in LA is pissed about COVID.

And there's your husband who's in his office writing this book, accusing Fauci of like starting the pandemic.

Like, yes.

Were you worried that that was going to affect your life?

I mean, was I worried?

Yes,

but it was more than worry.

It was affecting my life.

So it wasn't even like,

but I was concerned.

I was concerned.

I didn't know if this was going to be

something that we move

through, that I move through that, whoa, that was a crazy time.

And now things are back to normal.

Did that happen?

It did not.

No,

there is no normal.

No.

We broke normal along.

Yes, this was the beginning of a journey.

Yeah.

As I said at the outset, you're in a place I doubt you anticipated being.

Yeah, I did not expect that.

So that was, that was when I realized, oh,

this is,

yeah, this is changing everything.

So I would, it was publicly reported that people in Los Angeles were like, maybe we shouldn't give Cheryl Hines work because of her husband.

Do you think that's real?

I do think that's real.

I think I find that shocking.

I do.

Sorry.

Well, I mean, some people are just so

they are so

taken with politics.

They're so upset by politics that even to see me

is upsetting to them.

Can I suggest something, though, that this is why it matters.

It's not just about getting parts and TV shows or writing books about Fauci.

It's a genocidal mindset.

It's the mindset that says, well, you know, we hurt the guilty, but we also hurt his family.

And that's a genocidal mindset.

And it's weirdly common in elite circles in the United States.

You know, it's like, what do you have to do with this?

Nothing.

You married the guy.

And by the way, you were already successful when you married him.

You already had your own thing.

Yeah.

And you're already famous and you marry him.

You're not writing a book on Dr.

Fauci, but let's hurt her because she's related to him.

That's that's where genocide comes from.

That way of thinking.

It is, it is, uh,

it is strange.

It's very strange to me.

And at the same time, uh, on the opposite side,

yes, there are people that I'm probably not going to work with again.

And there are people

that I will be working with that have reached out to me

and that are in this business that are very successful people that say, oh, I want to work with you.

Well, that's a great way.

That's a great way to look at it.

Yeah.

So it's, but it was hard because at the time,

I mean, I've really loved all the people I've worked with.

It sounds like you did.

And I really have appreciated them.

And I also know, you know, we're sort of generalizing because I, there are plenty of people that I have worked with that have reached out to me and, you know, will say, I can't wait to work with you again.

They're not doing it publicly, but the other people aren't doing it publicly either.

Nobody's, you know, besides Bradley Woodford,

nobody is going on, you know.

What did Bradley Woodford say?

Oh, gosh.

You didn't hear that dumb tweet?

I try and stay away from all things Bradley Woodford related.

But don't tell me.

I can't wait for the new outrage.

What is it?

Oh, my gosh.

I don't know.

It's when Bobby, I guess it's when Bobby

backed President Trump.

And I just woke up.

I woke up and I had people texting me.

And I was trying to stay off social media too, because it's nothing good comes from it.

You think?

And I'm looking at my phone and I'm seeing texts from my friends saying,

you know, what an asshole.

I'm not thinking, who, oh, who's the asshole today?

It's always somebody.

And then somebody sent me his something that he posted on X and it was something like,

I'm I bet my nephew Jackson would know it by heart, but it was something like, Hey, Cheryl Hines, um,

something like insulted Donald Trump, and then,

of course, insulted Bobby and said,

Oh,

you're this is a real good, um, setting a great example for the kids, talking about me,

and uh, oh, real profile and courage.

I was like,

what's

what, first of all, what kids?

What,

what kids am I setting an example for?

And if the example that I'm setting is that I'm supporting my husband, I'm glad

that's the example for the kids.

Best example you could set.

So that was strange.

And then then profile and courage just because that's the name of the book that john f kennedy wrote but you know no explanation other than just he just uh sort of called me out

uh for not like it's your fault being out outraged at my husband i'm not even sure what he was hoping that i would

uh publicly

denounce your husband yeah i guess right

i'm getting a divorce you're right bradley you know it was a straight it was so strange to to me i was i was just like whoa what yeah like brad and i you know i know bradley and i

he he's an acquaintance and if i saw him at a party we'd hang out and laugh and talk about so for him to just suddenly come after me in a tweet was just weird yeah but kind of consistent with the culture of the city that you live in right well There's not a lot of disagreement.

I mean, it's so monochromatic.

It's like everybody has the same views on everything.

You know what's interesting?

After the first,

um, after the election with

with

Trump and Hillary,

I remember going to work and I remember

we were, I was in the, it was in the green room up somewhere and people were talking about the election.

And everybody was saying, I can't believe Trump won.

Couldn't believe who is, who voted for this person?

And there was one actor that said, oh, I voted for him

and everybody looked at him like what

and

and i you know i love this actor i'm not going to say his name because is he still working yes and he's still working and i said oh that's so interesting and i said why did why did you and i wanted to hear i wanted to talk to him because i felt like oh tell me why Because what am I missing?

You know?

And everybody else was just acted like he was a leper in the moment, just like, what?

And I remember thinking at the time, like, this is

so strange.

Yeah.

Because that's not an environment conducive to creativity.

No.

Creative people are open-minded.

Yeah.

And willing to entertain all kinds of wild notions, some of which are wrong.

Yeah.

And curious

about other people, especially.

Exactly.

Nicely put.

They're curious about other people.

Exactly.

So it's it's odd to me.

Well, yeah.

And, you know, maybe it has something to do with the declining creative output in Los Angeles.

I just guessed.

I can't speak to that.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I know.

Listen,

the people

in this country, in the entertainment business, are the best in the world.

They're the best in the world.

Yeah.

And

but a lot of it's being made outside of LA.

Right.

I mean, yeah, that's the unfortunate part.

A lot of the industry has been driven out.

Yeah, I mean, I always defend Los Angeles.

I lived there as a child.

I think it's the most American of all cities.

I love it.

I was just there.

I'm probably the only person with my voting record who defends L.A., but I always do.

But I just notice that it's, when I was a child, it did seem open-minded.

Yeah.

Maybe too much, probably famously too open-minded.

Like some things are not a good idea.

Do whatever

person you want to be.

clearly no clearly that's not the road to happiness on the other hand it is the road to creativity right well that that's why i find it odd

la

i find it odd that

uh

on the one hand you have a lot of people saying

um yeah let people be people and love the person no matter who they are I mean, that's, that was the feeling I always

felt in LA.

Unless you're married to someone who writes a book I don't like in which case because i cut them off

i was like oh i didn't see the fine print okay

i know now i know now

weird

weird

yeah it sounds like you're just by the way you talked that you were not super political no i wasn't political at all i was uh

you know the only thing i had ever posted was to vote.

I didn't say who I think you should vote for.

It was just like, but personally, you weren't like yelling about politics at dinner most nights.

No.

Yeah, I can, I can feel it.

And by the way, I, I never knew what politics

my friends or co-workers had.

Yeah.

Uh, because I would never be the person to bring up politics unless they were talking about it.

I would chime in, but um,

it just was not, I would

was not that person that was interested.

I was, I was interested in entertainment and writing and producing and directing and acting.

And to me, and so inspired by the people around me in LA, so inspired by them.

So, yeah, politics was just

for what other people do.

Yeah, you know, I think most people felt that way.

So, when your husband said, Oh, by the way, just you know, I may run for president.

What did you think of that?

I

was

shocked.

You were this is is not something you thought of before.

No.

No.

Yeah, I said president of what?

I was hoping it was like a board or company.

Homeowners Association.

The Homeowners Association.

I didn't support that.

I was

shocked.

And I,

you know, I was like, well, I need a minute to think about this.

I mean, do I have to give you an answer right now?

Is this something that I have to answer now?

And he said, no, I just, I didn't even know how you feel about it because I can't do it.

I won't do it unless you're, it's okay with you and you're supportive of it.

And

I said, I have to really think about it,

you know, because I knew

I knew that it would be life-changing.

And it's hard when.

Did you know how much?

No.

No.

But I knew it would be big.

You know, I knew it would be.

And I think what's really hard is I've always been very independent in my life, right?

I've moved to L.A.

I

lived on my own.

I sort of,

you know,

made my own path to do

this and that, you know, other things.

And however, I got there was not the normal way.

I was doing it my own way.

So I was used to taking risks for myself

and knowing, well, this might not work out.

This might work out, might not, but that's okay.

I'm taking the risk.

But it's sort of a harder, of course,

situation.

And this is with everybody, right?

Anybody who is in a relationship, anybody who has kids, anybody

who loves somebody else, else,

when they want to take a risk

and they're doing it because

they want to accomplish something or do something.

It's harder when they're the ones making the decision, but you know that it's going to really change your life too.

Oh, yeah.

Harder.

So what did, was the show still going?

I can't remember.

Yeah, the show is still going.

What did they say when you show up at work and you're like, hey, guys?

Didn't love it.

I bet.

You know,

they were always very

loving to me.

And

even to Bobby,

you know, as a person.

So I never felt hate coming at me or towards Bobby, but definitely

there were strong opinions about whether he should be running for president

against Joe Biden.

Well, that's how it all started, right?

Because he's the fourth Kennedy to run for president and the only one not to get the support of Hollywood.

Interesting.

Yeah.

It was it was an interesting time.

And I, I did have

maybe one

discussion with someone on the set where

that person said, well,

he, Bobby has to drop out.

He cannot be running against Joe Biden.

On the set, somebody's at this table.

Well, you know, it was.

Yeah, but at work.

Yeah, at work.

And I said, well, um,

I said, you know,

I don't know that Biden is a strong candidate.

Well, you are a misunderstatement, aren't you?

I know that Joe Biden is a strong candidate.

Yeah, because

that's what they asked me.

He's like asleep in his P's at this point.

Like, not a strong candidate.

They said, why is Bobby running?

And I said, because

perhaps Joe Biden's not a strong candidate.

And

that was probably as

heated as it got.

But it was clear that a lot of people in town did not want Bobby running against Joe Biden.

A lot of people in the country, a lot of Democrats.

Democrats were not supportive of Bobby.

Well, some were, but yeah, some were.

Some were.

Yeah, definitely.

On the margins, but the party itself was adamantly opposed.

Yes.

Wow.

So how long did you do the show during the campaign?

Oh, we just had our last season.

So

it was, so I was probably,

Bobby was probably running for

maybe two months, like maybe a two-month overlap or something.

What did you think of that experience?

I don't want to get emotional.

I thought it was.

all right.

That stuff is pretty heavy, yeah.

I mean

it

was hard because it made me sad.

Yeah,

because I, you know, I had been working on this show for a long time and

it was always pure joy.

Yeah.

And

I mean, even when the

vaccines of it all were introduced,

there started to be an element

that

made its way into

conversations

at work

that, up until that moment, had,

like I said, only been pure joy.

So,

and you know, not to say that

people through the years didn't have health issues, didn't have relatives who passed away.

And so,

you know, we were there for each other.

Um,

so

but it started to divide your friendships,

Yeah.

And

it's.

Is that because you showed up and said you have to vote for Bobby for president or else I'm not going to be your friend?

Or was it because people were cruel to you because of your husband?

Well, I, I, you know,

I don't know if I'd use the word cruel, but um,

yeah, I never told anybody they needed to vote for Bobby.

Somehow I didn't think they did.

I

so

yeah, so

that part of it made me sad

that

that was how the show was ending for me, you know, and it was just personal for me.

It was for everybody else.

It was

it was fine and it was normal.

It was usual.

They were they they were ending the

the series and you know going on late night talk shows and talking about the show and they could talk about the show they could talk about curve without

without talking about politics without anybody asking them questions about

their spouses yeah but that was not the world for me

and so that was

you couldn't go anywhere without having to answer questions about your husband.

Right.

Yep.

I still, it's still,

it's still a conversation.

Yeah, I'm for conversation.

I'm not for punishing the innocent because that, again, is the genocidal mindset that I object to completely.

And I just, I just can't imagine.

I'm shocked to learn how many people have that mindset and think it's okay to torment people because of their relatives.

Thank God I'm not held accountable for my relatives.

I mean, or I haven't been for most of my life.

You know what I I mean?

All of us don't feel that way.

But the idea that you would attack someone for a relative is, man, that's so dark.

I think.

I think it's

really strange.

It's strange.

You're a nice person.

I can tell you're restraining yourself.

You just see so much of this.

And that's the same attitude, you know, like, well, let's.

kill the Tootsies because they're Tootsies and their parents are bad.

So let's kill the kids.

Like, that's just not the way to think.

That's not the Christian way to to think.

It's not the humane way to think.

And it was never the American way to think.

And it is all of a sudden.

And I, and you're a victim of it.

Yeah.

So, well,

it's an odd place to be.

It's a strange, it's a very odd place.

You know what?

Something that stood out to me, like during all this time, when

tables were

sort of turning,

after the 2020 election

and Biden became president, I had a friend, a good friend of mine,

who's no longer speaking to me, but

she said,

I wonder what Milania is going to do now.

This is after the election.

I said, oh.

I don't know.

She could probably do anything she wants.

She goes, I hope she can't.

I hope she can't do

And I was like,

what are you talking about?

And she said, well, if she is married to Donald Trump, I hope she can't do anything.

And I just, it was eye-opening to me.

I thought, whoa,

that's

odd.

Well, it's hate.

That's actual hate.

I said, I said, so,

and she said, haven't you, haven't you thought that?

And

I said,

I have not.

No.

She said, I have not spent one moment

hoping something horrible for somebody else.

It was so,

but just, but just to know, like, that's what's living on in her mind.

Like, she has spent,

even if it's two minutes of her day, but it clearly it sounded like it was more than that

must spend time like wishing.

And by the way, everything that I know about Melania Trump is pretty amazing.

She only,

she does a lot of work for children.

And she does it quietly and she doesn't need fanfare for it, but she really works hard

to try to reunite children with their parents for the

a lot of different programs that she works.

But so, for

one of my friends to be wishing something

on somebody that she doesn't even know this person, I know it was eye-opening to me.

Well, again, it's back to the same mindset.

So, she didn't say, I hate Melania because of these three things she did.

It was her connection to someone she doesn't like

that made her guilty.

You know what?

I don't know why

that brings such clarity to me.

Because like I said, now this friend does not talk to me.

Yeah.

Because you're married to the wrong person.

Oh my gosh.

I never, why did I never connect that to that story?

Well, this is like the root of like a lot of the world's problems.

It's like, let's kill their families too.

It's what's happening in a lot of places in the world right now.

And it's happening in Los Angeles.

It's pretty crazy.

Yeah.

And I thought it was crazy at the time.

It's like, well, you hate her only because she's married to

somebody else you hate.

And she won't speak to you.

This is a coworker or friend from your business.

I had been friends with her since for 30 years.

Oh, gosh.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Well, thank you.

And, you know, I've come to

that.

You have to ask yourself, well,

if that's who this person is, is that who I well, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I think that's right.

So one more sore subject, but the security thing.

That was very upsetting to me.

I mean, I know your husband and I really love your husband.

So that was part of it.

But even if I didn't like your husband, I would, and I very much do, but I would, even if I didn't, I would think, hmm, presidential candidates candidates ought to have secret service protection if they're, if it's real candidacy, traveling around the country with staff, which he was, packing venues, which he was, very famous person.

And then, of course, the whole his family backstory is like so unbelievable.

Right.

So we don't need to be reminded of what could happen.

It's obvious.

And yet he did not have secret service protection from the Biden administration.

He didn't.

Okay.

They wanted him out of the race one way or the other.

I think that's the obvious conclusion there.

That's so dark and sick.

But here's my question.

I didn't see many prominent people stand up, including people he's related to, and say, whoa, wait a second.

This man needs secret service protection.

His father was murdered.

Are you joking?

Like, what was that?

Why was there no outcry over that?

I was with him in some city, New York, I think.

Oh, it was at MSG.

It was last.

No, I don't know when it was, whatever.

I traveled to him, but it was somewhere.

And I was walking down the street with him.

No, it was in D.C.

And he had no secret service protection at all.

Yeah.

And I was like,

what is going on?

Yeah.

Why didn't people say anything?

Why didn't prominent people say anything?

Isn't it crazy?

It is crazy to me.

Do you notice this?

Oh, yeah.

Well, I do.

I talk about this in my book too, unscripted.

Because that was, that was also part of

what, you know, there were so many things that were very surreal about it, about Bobby running, but that was one of them where

you know

that was a big concern.

The biggest concern about him running is was security because I,

you know,

I'm like,

this is you're

putting yourself

out there.

And yes, your father was assassinated while he was running for president.

Your uncle was assassinated when he was president.

That is, this is so dangerous.

And

then I thought at the beginning,

I thought, okay.

He's announcing he's running for president.

We'll see what happens in the primaries because in the primaries, we'll know if he has support or not, and it'll go one way or the other.

So, I thought maybe this is going to go on, maybe he'll be running for, I don't know, five or six months or something.

Um,

and

we had a private security,

um,

and he, you know, applied for a secret service.

And

first, first of all, they didn't even respond to him in a

normal timeline.

So it was just like, well, we'll wait.

We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

And then

when Bobby switched to running as an independent,

the Democrats came out

basically and said on TV, I watched an interview where they said, no, we are going to make sure

that RFK Jr.

spends all of his money on lawsuits.

We're going to keep suing him so he has no money for his campaign.

And then,

you know,

what we could hear people talk about,

not in front of the camera, was

also

we're going to make sure he has to spend a lot of money on security.

So he doesn't have money for his campaign.

And also heard

if he was given secret service, then it would legitimize him as a candidate, and they didn't want that.

So

all that was happening.

And then, yes, you had some family members who came out publicly against Bobby and said, but we, but we love him.

But I never saw any of them publicly say

even though we don't agree with him politically we are concerned about his safety

you didn't hear any say that i did not of his siblings no i did not sick it's the sickest thing sorry you don't have to say that it's your your they're your in-laws but i mean i can't imagine anything more loathsome than that it was um

hard to believe, really hard to believe.

And then, you know,

I

went down a rabbit hole when I was writing this book because at the time, people,

different

outlets would give different reasons why, of course, Robert Kennedy didn't get Secret Service.

It's too early.

But then you would look, I would look up, and Barack Obama got it 300 and something days before the election.

You know, people, people got it

200 days before the election.

So that was not it.

Some people got it before they even announced that they were running.

So

whatever they were, whatever people were saying, they always were trying to make Bobby look

like he's being ridiculous.

You're being ridiculous for asking.

You're not even a real candidate.

And meanwhile, you know, he had someone show up at one of his rallies

with loaded weapons,

you know,

pretending to be a federal agent, flashing badges.

And

they arrested him.

But then I was home watching when a guy came over my back fence and was approaching the house.

I was on, I was doing a Instagram live with my friend from Tallahassee.

And I said, I, I, I see this guy out the window.

And I, and she said, are you okay?

I said, I don't, I think I have to go.

Something's happening.

And then I see our security guard, you know, take his weapon out.

And I'm watching this on Instagram Live.

And I said, I, I really do have to wrap it up.

So yeah, that guy was apprehended, was arrested by LAPD,

was released, and then took an Uber back to our house and was arrested again the same day.

And both of those,

both of those events were publicized.

People knew about it.

You know, I was in LA when it happened, when the one guy was arrested at the

rally.

It made the

local news.

I don't know if it made the national news, but

people knew.

People in the administration knew.

People in Bobby's family knew.

And it's not everybody.

I know there were a few members of the family that I know that inquired.

Issuing a public statement and calling on Joe Biden to provide their brother with Secret Service would have fixed that in about two seconds.

That's what President Trump did.

Yeah.

Oh, I know.

It's just crazy that it took Trump to provide protection to Bobby Kennedy.

I know.

A year and a half later, you know, Bobby had been running for a year and a half by that point.

So, okay, the night Trump is shot in Butler, Bobby and Trump speak for the first time

and start kind of feeling each other out about maybe we could team up, maybe Bobby could endorse Trump, which would be, at the time, seemed completely crazy.

But it was clearly possible from your perspective.

Like, what?

I mean, first, your husband comes out against vaccines, then he attacks Fauci, then he runs for president, and now he's thinking about endorsing Donald Trump.

I mean, these are like, how many more red lines are there in Hollywood?

I think, yeah, that was the last, that was definitely the last

strike.

Yeah, that was it, huh?

Yeah,

that was beyond anything anybody could take.

Some people, some people.

But but yeah it was that was

that it's all been

uh a learning process for me you know and to to

it's been um

it's it's sometimes it has tested me

to take a step back and

get a different perspective, you know, because like you said, that was something I couldn't, I could not have ever imagined.

Yeah.

Well, it was a big deal.

I mean, the Trump people who very much wanted,

I know, you know, Bobby's endorsement, wanted him to campaign with them, wanted to bring on the administration, knew that your opinion was really important to him.

Obviously, you're his wife, but he really cared about what you thought.

And they were like,

they were focused on that.

So when was your, when was the first time you met Donald Trump?

I met him.

He, he was, uh, the assassination attempt was on a Saturday, and I met him on that Monday morning.

I don't remember the dates by any means, but that was July, mid-July.

Yeah.

So that was right before the Republican convention was starting.

Yeah, it started Monday night.

Right.

So,

so President Trump wanted to meet with Bobby that morning in Milwaukee.

They had talked for the first time on Saturday, and then by Monday, you were out there.

That's right.

They work fast.

Well, we see that in this administration.

They work fast.

Yeah.

So,

yeah, everything was happening quickly.

But, you know, there was a

There was a shift.

There was a huge shift when

there was the assassination attempts on Donald Trump.

It was a shift.

You know, so many people

were, a lot of Americans felt like that, this is too much.

Yeah.

And

now we really have to

get behind Trump.

This is too much.

So there was that shift going on.

And at the same time,

it was

had to be emotional for

President Trump and his family.

I mean, the bullet came very

close to killing him in inches.

That's dramatic.

Yeah.

So there was a lot.

There was a lot going on

and a lot of um

even emotions emotions happening so when they started talking on on

saturday

they said they wanted to meet on monday i was going to meet bobby after this meeting he was going to sit down with the president and they were going to talk and see what was

what if anything they

if they wanted to work together if they didn't if they agreed on things if they didn't.

And I was going to meet with Bobby after the

that

meeting.

But when I landed in Milwaukee,

the

security said, oh, we're taking you straight to the meeting.

I said, to

I'm going to the meeting.

So it was interesting.

That was the first time I walked in.

And it was, it was Bobby and

Amarillis, who was my daughter-in-law.

who was running Bobby's campaign at the time.

Susie Wiles, who was running Donald Trump's campaign, and Donald Trump.

And that was the first time I met him.

And he shook my hand.

And,

you know,

he was a very genuine person.

And it was,

I don't know.

I don't want to say surprising,

but maybe surprising.

Out-of-body experience.

I mean, here you work on Curb your enthusiasm.

You live in LA for 30 years.

I know.

Donald Trump's the enemy, and all of a sudden, you're like in a meeting with him.

I know.

By the way, there's an episode of Curb where Larry wears a MAGA hat to repel people in LA so he doesn't have to have lunch with people,

which is funny, but it's also true.

Which is also funny.

But,

but yeah so uh so

i was i i don't know i was expecting something else what were you expecting

horns sulfur

um i was expecting uh

i think i was expecting somebody who

didn't listen to other people,

wouldn't be interested in other people.

And that's not,

that's not who I met.

I met

somebody who was very interested in other people.

Really wanted to hear what somebody else had to say.

I think that was very surprising to me.

Did you call back to LA and say, hey, guys, he's actually cool.

Good news, guys.

I didn't even tell anybody at the time.

And

it was so stressful.

There was stress for so many reasons at that time.

Security, number one reason, right?

I mean, this just happened with Donald Trump with secret service protection.

And Bobby still didn't have secret service protection.

And

during that meeting,

President Trump posted, Bobby Kennedy should have secret service protection.

This is ridiculous.

And that day, Bobby got secret service protection.

I mean,

were the wheels already in motion, perhaps?

But the but the other thing about so he ended up getting secret service protection.

It was a

presidential

an executive order,

which was fine.

But usually

in

when a presidential

candidate gets secret service protection when they're running their spouse their family also has protection but because this was an executive order it was just for bobby which was

also strange

because suddenly

i'm in the house i'm in my house Now we have secret service.

Bobby has secret service.

So I will be in the house with the kids for two days.

And then Bobby's coming into town and then we have to evacuate the house so they can do a bomb sweep before Bobby gets there.

And I'm thinking, yeah, I'm thinking, oh, the house that we've just been in for three days, nobody cared about the bomb then is weird.

But yeah, that's how it was.

So,

so

it was straight.

I thought that was strange too.

So

it was just very, it was a very

stressful time.

So after, so during that meeting, right?

So I, I meet

stressful already that there was an assassination attempt on on Donald Trump.

That's so stressful.

That's so awful.

And what does that say about us?

And then now he's meeting with Bobby because they're talking about perhaps working together.

Also stressful.

And then,

and then that day we get secret service protection.

So that's another,

you know, crazy thing that's happening.

Because now you're talking about

police, you know, sheriffs everywhere around your house and

motorcades everywhere.

Bobby goes, everywhere Bobby goes.

Just like motorcade.

I'm sure the neighbors didn't love it.

And the dogs, you know, now we had bomb sniffing dogs and we already had our crazy dogs.

It was just,

all of it was a lot happening at once.

Yeah, that's what I, I was just telling you, I broke into hives.

And then later that day, while I was in Milwaukee,

my lips started swelling.

I mean, a crazy amount.

It is a crazy amount.

So much so that I had to go to the emergency room because

I was worried that my throat might

close up.

But it was all from stress.

That's wild.

It's crazy.

So,

when was the first time you told people back home that Trump was actually kind of normal in person?

Well,

I really didn't tell my friends.

I told my, I'm very close to my sister and my brother.

So they're really the, the,

you know, my sounding board.

I,

one of my best friends back in LA,

I mean, I have a few best friends back in LA, but I wouldn't even tell them that because I didn't want them to be stressed about it.

I didn't want, I didn't want people to know because I don't, I don't need that, other people asking them about it

because

I know that there are people are already mad because I'm married to Bobby.

I don't need people being mad at my friends

because I'm married to Bobby and they're friends with me.

So I wasn't even telling people.

I don't want to put them in a position of, oh my God, I can't believe your friend did this.

Does that make sense?

Of course.

I mean, it makes sense if you live in a completely insane world where talking to Donald Trump is a death penalty offense.

I mean, you're so fucking nuts that it's hard to know how even to

discuss it.

Yeah.

But, you know, my family, my, my

sister and my brother, they were like, yeah, that

makes sense.

That's really interesting.

You know,

they were very curious to hear, hear about it and how, what I thought about it, and what I, how I found Donald Trump to be.

They were like, that, wow, that's so interesting.

But I guess that makes sense because you do hear that about him.

You hear that he's

people say he's charming.

And I understand why,

because somebody who is

somebody that you meet that feels completely comfortable with who they are, completely comfortable in their own skin,

they come across as charming.

Of course.

Because it's like, oh,

I'm not, I don't need to put on any airs.

I don't need to be anybody other than I am.

Exactly.

And that's who I found him to be.

I found him to be just a genuine person.

Did you ever meet Melania?

Yes.

I've met her a few times.

What do you think?

I really like her.

Did you call your friend in LA and say, actually, she's pretty cool?

I did.

Did you, actually?

Yeah.

I mean, Melania, I haven't had,

I've definitely had more time

with

President Trump than Melania.

Just a few moments with Melania.

But

she was so sweet to me.

One of the first

things that we went to after the administration started was the governor's dinner at the White House.

it was very beautiful dinner with all the governors um

and i just had one tiny moment with melania and she asked me how i was finding dc and how i was doing with everything and she said you should really try to enjoy it

and i and

i took that in because i thought yeah you're right

Because up until that moment, I was

thinking,

I don't know if I'm going to like this.

I don't know if I am ready for this.

I don't know.

And then when she said that, I thought, yeah, why don't I try to enjoy it?

Yeah, why not?

And then it really, I don't know.

It really, like,

those were the words I needed to hear at that moment.

Have you enjoyed it?

Yeah.

Really?

Not all of it, but

I've enjoyed.

I enjoy the people people that I spend time with in DC.

I really like the people that Bobby works with.

I like their spouses.

I like them as people,

you know, as someone to hang out with and talk to at the dinner party.

I really like them.

You had an appearance in the View the other day, which I saw part of it.

And they immediately started attacking you for your husband because they're feminists.

You know, that makes sense.

And

but they

they were

the criticism of him and then to direct it at you, well, I guess I've said it eight times, but I really mean it is insane.

But it's all about the vaccines.

Like, what is that?

Why is it that someone, because

he has said many times, including to me, not against vaccines on principle, but some of these vaccines are clearly dangerous and they are, and that's proven.

And why wouldn't we try to make them safer?

Like, why would that be a controversial statement?

I'm honestly confused.

So am I.

I am honestly confused by that.

And I'm confused by

people attacking the parents who say,

my child is different since they received the vaccine.

It's very strange for other

people to say, say, you are crazy.

How dare you say that?

How dare you blame the vaccine?

And these are parents who said, oh, I'm just telling you my experience.

My experience was my child was hitting developmental markers.

My child was

hitting milestones.

And then they got the vaccine and everything changed.

Why are we yelling at those parents?

Why are I, I don't, that's, that's what I really don't understand either.

Why are

when did that start?

You know, I don't know anyone like that just because I shield myself from anyone who would even

give a hint of having those attitudes because I can't deal with it.

So I don't, I don't, I don't know the answer, but you're, I mean, you know, a lot of these people personally.

Like, what do you think the answer is?

There's something about vaccines

that they've made, people have made very political

in a way that's hard to understand because it's, if you're talking about cancer, you're talking about,

you know, different, different ways to treat cancer, people don't get upset about it.

That's right.

People don't yell at you about it.

You're not taking chemo, just radiation.

Damn you.

Right.

So there's something about the mindset of people.

The mindset of some people is

you are putting everybody in danger if you don't get vaccinated.

And once again, it goes back to what you said.

Well, if you have the vaccine, you should feel pretty good that you're not going to get it because that's why you got the vaccine.

Right.

But

it's like yelling at me for not wearing a seatbelt.

Right.

What does it have to do with you?

Right.

And somehow it's,

I don't, it, I really don't understand it.

I don't understand.

I don't understand how

when people got mad at other people, also women turning on each other, I find

motherhood is, is challenging enough,

parenthood.

If a mother, if another mother is telling me,

wow, this is what happened.

This was my experience

with me and my child.

why would I be judging that person?

Because I did, because I think she's lying to me.

Why would she be lying?

Who's lying about this?

Why does why, what,

why would somebody lie about it?

It doesn't make sense to me.

No, it doesn't.

They're not, nobody's gaining anything by sharing their story.

So it's,

I don't know why they're so mad about vaccines.

They're so people are worried that if you,

if you question the safety or if you, like I said, on the view, I said, you know,

can we do better?

Can we make them safer so there aren't as many injuries?

There are a lot of injuries.

A lot.

Boy, there's the vaccine injury compensation program that's paid out $5.4 billion.

That's what I told him on the view.

And no response.

Like,

nobody said anything like, oh, wow.

I mean, no, Whippy asked me if it was just COVID.

I said, no, I think it was for all vaccines.

But can we just look at that without

thinking about it in a political way and say, oh, well,

people are being paid, compensated for vaccine injuries.

There's a whole service set up for it.

Can we just say,

can both sides agree?

Oh, you're right.

Somebody has been injured by it.

They proved it in court.

so can we start there it's like you're saying can we just start at one place where we all agree on something

and then say well

can we do a vaccine where less people are injured yeah why is that it's same vaccine fewer deaths yeah

is that crazy does why is that why is that

why does that make people mad i don't know i really don't know you really don't

I really don't.

It does seem, I mean, I'm trying to, I've thought about this for years, ever since your husband kind of blew up this topic.

I've been thinking about it many years ago when he wrote that Rolling Stone piece, 15, 20 years ago.

And I knew him and I, and I admired him as a writer.

He's a great writer.

And in addition to other things, and I watched him just like literally end his career.

and all these friendships and Bobby Kennedy was like, he's a Kennedy.

That's so cool.

It went from that to Bobby Kennedy's name may not be spoken because he criticized vaccines.

And I've been trying to figure out what that's about ever since.

What do you think it's about?

I think there's a spiritual element to it.

I think there's a, this is a religion.

This is not rational.

That's the first thing I noticed.

Second, this is longstanding.

Diego Rivera, the communist Mexican muralist, wrote or drew, painted a fairly famous mural of a child getting vaccines.

And it looks like the kind of classic Christian Christmas image of Jesus in the manger, but instead of a cross, it's vaccines.

And that was painted in the 30s.

It was like a WPA program or something.

You can look it up on the internet.

It's really interesting for what it reveals of

the mindset around vaccines, but it's like a ritual.

This is not, because again, it's not a question about like, what's the most effective oncology, right?

Right.

It's way deeper and like pre-rational.

So that's religion.

That's not science.

That's religion.

Well, it's interesting when you're talking about it that way.

It is interesting because it's probably

the only thing

that

people are

asked to do as a group, regardless of who you are, regardless of

what your religion,

what your

health is.

you're asked to take the vaccine

and don't ask questions yes

so

i guess maybe

that's where it started right they had they had to convince people that no this is for everybody and you can't ask questions everybody's doing it

just everybody's doing it that's all you need to know

well yeah but i mean for sure

people used to burn widows you know or or whatever you know people had all kinds of ugly primitive rituals that they were ultimately talked out of that were once compulsory which are now reviled like i get it but this one has been the same for 90 years like what there's something

piercing the skin injecting something into somebody i mean there's a control element but there's also a ritualistic component to this that's so crazy It is.

Go look up the Diego Rivera.

And I hope I'm not screwing this up, but I don't think that I am.

Mural.

I mean, that's wild.

Like, he just lays it out there.

Like, this is your new religion, vaccines.

There's the baby Jesus getting needles in him.

It is so crazy.

Right?

I mean, there's like ritual bloodletting.

I mean, look, I've arrived at this over many years of thinking about it because I can't think of another explanation.

It is really hard.

I mean,

yeah,

don't question question authority.

But definitely.

And then punish the guy's relatives who questions it.

That part.

There is that part.

But the other thing, too, that

I have a hard time understanding

the people that

are

saying

that, you know,

vaccines were tested however long ago, 40 years ago, 20 years ago, and they were tested to be fine.

Yeah.

So stop asking questions about it.

There are drugs on the market all the time that are approved.

Then 10 years later, 20 years later, you see a lot of people have been injured and they pull the drug because they're like, this is not working.

I mean, they used to x-ray women when they were pregnant.

in the 50s because gave them thalidomide.

Yeah.

Because they thought it was a great, you know, new technology to nila wafers were considered a health food when I was a kid because

they had weed in them because they had weeded them.

Remember smoking?

Like your parents would be in a car with the windows rolled up and 100%.

But they didn't know that at the time that they were harmful or causing cancer to the kids in the bag.

No, it's delicious.

And then at some point,

you know,

there's a stop down.

People say, Oh,

we just learned that this is not good for you,

that you shouldn't be taking this, that this drug isn't working.

That you, you learn things all the time, and everybody

stops down and makes a new choice, right?

And says, Oh, okay, yeah, I'm going to stop using that.

So, it happens all the time.

So, for people to say, it can absolutely not happen with vaccines, there's no way,

there is no way to make them better or to, because they're great already.

It's like, so strange.

No, no, but it's a religious concept.

Not one word can be added or deleted.

It's perfect.

It's holy writ.

It cannot be changed.

It came from God himself.

These are the tablets right here.

I mean,

this is, I know it's hard.

meditate on this.

I know.

I'm going to think about this.

No, I have never connected.

So I've met very few people who've had a life with the trajectory that yours has had.

I don't even, it's not really an arc.

It's more like, as you described, a hairpin turn in this direction.

The last, you know, so you grew up in one world and are a completely different world, rise to the top of that world, and then all of a sudden you're in a completely different world.

Like, what are the conclusions you draw from this?

What have you learned?

And it's still ongoing, by the way.

So

I don't expect.

So watch what you say.

No, you know what I've, I've learned.

I mean, I've learned a lot of things, of course.

I've learned,

and I always felt like I knew what really matters.

My family has always

been the most important thing to me.

That's why

the best thing about getting married is that you get to pick a family member.

It's the only time in your life where you get to pick somebody to be a part of your family.

And that's pretty amazing.

Uh, I learned that that is really the only thing that matters, yes, it's your family.

So, for me,

I mean, there have been times with Bobby that when I get frustrated and I feel like

I can't believe you said that or said it like that, and I'm like, Why would you do that?

Um,

and it doesn't

matter so little in the big scheme of things, yes, What matters is how

you love people.

And

I think too, how you receive love.

So even

some of my friendships that have, that did not survive this, right?

It's too emotional.

It's too emotional for them to be friends with me because of what Bobby does.

I learned to,

you know, it's that that's okay.

And I can still love

who they are and what we had together.

I don't have to spend time

missing it or being sad or whatever that is.

I can step back and say, oh, that person was the right time, the right person at the right time.

And I loved what, what we had.

Yes.

And I, and I'm not angry or sad about it.

And, and at the same time,

you know, I just turned 60

and I'm at a place where

I really have learned a lot just in terms of learning brand new things in my life

that I never thought I would.

And it's not, this isn't like we talked about politics.

I never set out to, I can't wait to learn a lot about politics.

But I did, you know, even in the election,

I learned a lot about

how to run a campaign, what it looks like from the inside of a presidential campaign.

You learn about

press

and

rumors.

And

if somebody says something enough times, then it becomes the truth to people.

So you, I learned all of that.

And

even when Bobby, even when Bobby switched to being

an independent,

just learning every state, you have to have a certain amount of signatures from different people and you turn them in at different times in the calendar year.

So even learning that stuff, which I never wanted to learn, but I know it now,

fascinating to me that now being in DC and now being

sitting where I am and seeing what I see and being around the people that I'm around.

I can say that the

people in the cabinet, the people in the the administration

really want what's best for this country.

And

it may sound silly that I didn't

recognize that before

because I felt like, well,

I'm sure there are people that are in it for themselves and that want,

you know.

But where I see it, that is not the case.

The case is that everybody sits at the table and they say,

What can we do to make the country better to work together?

And that was

that's interesting to me.

And I keep

I keep I'm learning more now about

politics, about uh

how things, what has to happen to change a law or to

or to get something done in DC or to

make a change in the nation.

I'm learning all these

sort of big concepts that I otherwise would not have thought about.

And I

and I find it fascinating.

I find the people that I'm sitting next to at dinner fascinating.

They're smart and they have hard jobs, very difficult jobs.

Yes.

And I think a lot of people,

you have people, people maybe in LA that

sit around and say, oh, I can do it so much better.

It's like, I don't think so.

Otherwise, you'd be doing it.

How long were you in LA?

Over 30.

Yeah, over 30 years.

I mean, it just seems to me that given how fast everything is changing, you're so blessed

to be

in part doing something different, learning new things.

I agree with that.

Yeah.

And

I mean, sometimes what we think are tragedies turn out to be like the greatest blessings.

And

I mean,

I don't know.

You're still interested in stuff, which is pretty great at 60.

Yeah.

Listen, I have a lot of friends who.

Their kids have grown up and moved out and now they're bored and they're trying to figure out how to fill the day.

Yes.

I don't have that.

And the business they were in is dying or changing really fast.

It's really hard.

Yeah.

It's very, the entertainment industry is really a tough place to be in right now.

So

I find, yeah, I'm like,

I find it fascinating.

And maybe because.

Because I have been in the

entertainment industry.

And, you know, I mean, there are a lot of films,

TV shows about politics and politicians because it's fascinating.

And so

we like to watch it.

We'd like to watch it play out on the screen, but then to now be in the middle of it, seeing it, it's

pretty great.

I love that.

Cheryl Hines, you're a deep person, and I'm grateful that you came.

Thank you, Tucker.

I really like talking to you.

We've got a new website we hope you will visit.

It's called NewCommissionNow.com and it refers to a new 9-11 commission.

So we spent months putting together our 9-11 documentary series.

And if there's one thing we learned, it's that in fact, there was foreknowledge of the attacks.

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Because he had foreknowledge.

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Maybe there's an instant explanation for all this, but there isn't, actually.

And by the way, it doesn't matter whether there is or not.

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The 9-11 Commission, the original one, was a fraud.

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