151. Dr. Brian Mogen: CTO of Hapbee Discusses the Science of Biohacking Sleep

Speaker 1 Chemotherapy is really awful for people to experience, especially for brain cancer, because you need to take such high doses that it can get through the blood-brain barrier.

Speaker 1 Well, here's a technology that can pass through the blood-brain barrier.

Speaker 2 It seems to me, too, the applications are so vast, especially for addiction, for example. Have you looked at any implications for addictions like smoking, vaping?

Speaker 1 We're starting to look into veterans' health being integrated as part of their treatment plan of not being able to sleep or struggling with alcohol or other addictive addictive problems.

Speaker 2 In terms of the sleep realm, there's people that struggle with sleep. Talk about some of the compounds that you have for sleep and what you're seeing in the community that's using these so far.

Speaker 1 There's kind of two areas that we've really seen improvement in, and surprisingly, one.

Speaker 2 Hey guys, welcome back to the Ultimate Human Podcast. I'm your host, human biologist, Gary Breca, where we go down the road of everything, anti-aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between.

Speaker 2 And today's guest is a fascinating guest. You know, when I was using his technology, my wife and I have been using it for quite some time.
My staff has been using it for quite some time.

Speaker 2 You might have seen it on my Instagram. I really wanted to go down the rabbit hole of the science.
And so I contacted the company and they said, we'll bring the scientists in.

Speaker 2 We'll fly them in, put them on your podcast so you can ask them whatever questions you want about the origin of this technology, which I think you're going to find fascinating.

Speaker 2 But first of all, welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brian Mogan.

Speaker 1 Thanks so much for having me. I forgot to even introduce you.

Speaker 2 But, you know, you're a distinguished biomedical engineer with a strong foundation in neural engineering and biomedical sciences.

Speaker 2 What I found fascinating when I was digging into your background was that you earned your Ph.D. in brain-computer interfaces from University of Washington.
Yep.

Speaker 2 This is the first time I've ever, I didn't even know that was a thing. No, no, no offense.

Speaker 1 There aren't that many of us.

Speaker 2 There's not that many of you.

Speaker 2 And you focused on translational neuroscience, microfluidics, and electronics hardware contributing to advancements in neural implants and brain-computer interface technologies.

Speaker 2 And the first thing that came to mind was this like brain implant that Elon Musk is working on.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Which some people have actually already done this.

Speaker 1 Yeah. There are human beings with those implants right now.
And I spent a long time,

Speaker 1 almost eight years, studying all the different ways that you could record brain activity, decode it, signal process it, and turn it into action for electrical stimulation for either changing the way the brain was wired to itself or controlling how your hands and arms move through stimulating your spinal cord.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 I mean, before we talk about the stuff that really freaks me out, I mean,

Speaker 2 let's talk a little bit about the implications for something like that in spinal cord injuries, which is where a lot of your research was focused, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, spinal cords on applied

Speaker 1 application or novel applications for new implants in the spinal cord.

Speaker 1 And I think the big takeaway that a lot of people miss there is the vast, vast majority of spinal cord implants aren't a full transsection.

Speaker 1 There aren't that many people that get a full cut through their spinal cord. There's a lot of residual function.

Speaker 1 So we were looking at approaches for how can you harness and retrain and and use neuroplasticity approaches that work in the brain and in neurons in a dish how can you take that into spinal cord stimulation to strengthen

Speaker 2 so you know in the spinal cord you i think of it like thousands, literally millions of tiny, tiny, tiny little hairs kind of all bound together and they're sending information, you know, back and forth to the brain, some of its motor, some of its coordination, some of its sensory.

Speaker 2 But you're saying that there's some of these pathways, let's say, that could get damaged that deal with motor activity. And you could use a sensory pathway to maybe send motor information?

Speaker 1 Or even the motor pathway doesn't get damaged 100%. It gets damaged 25%.
And that's enough to affect the way you can walk or the way you can use your hands. And you can take the remaining 70%.

Speaker 1 people are doing spinal cord

Speaker 1 stem cell implants to try and regenerate and improve that. But our thinking was: can you also use electrical stimulation to just retrain what is still

Speaker 1 functional and take that and enhance the functionality? Kind of.

Speaker 2 Is this kind of the and just by way of background?

Speaker 2 You know, my personal story with his technology is really fascinating. So I'll just throw it out there.
I was in Dubai several months ago on an unrelated trip, and

Speaker 2 one one of the Sheikhs of Bahrain, Sheikh Nasser,

Speaker 2 contacted me and said, hey, there's a group over there that happens to be in Dubai right now that I want you to meet with. And there's this really interesting technology that I've been looking at.

Speaker 2 I'd love for them to come to your hotel

Speaker 2 while you're in Dubai. And if the Sheikh of Bahrain calls you and asks you to take a meeting,

Speaker 2 you kind of take the meeting. He's an amazing guy, by the way.
And Sheikh Nasser, if you're listening, shout out to you, brother.

Speaker 2 He's a two-time world champion in this incredibly

Speaker 2 difficult distance horse race. His family is an amazing family.
He's crazy about human performance.

Speaker 2 He actually puts more technology into his horses, I think, than he does into humans.

Speaker 2 I like joke with him. I'm like, man, when I...
When I die, I want to come back as one of your horses, man.

Speaker 2 Olympic swimming pools and altitude sleeping rooms and red light mats they drape them over and all organic diets. And like, it's amazing how they're pushing the limits of horse racing over there.

Speaker 2 So I take this meeting and I'm with a partner of mine from the Middle East and I happen to have my CFO with me. And

Speaker 2 this gentleman shows up and he's got this necklace that you've got around your neck right here. And he proceeds to tell me this story about,

Speaker 2 and I'm going to bastardize it.

Speaker 2 The reason why you're here is to clear this up. That sounds good.
But essentially, that, you know, this company has technology that has isolated

Speaker 2 these different frequencies that mimic certain compounds in the human body. And the long and short of it is they could mimic caffeine.
They could mimic the effects of pain medication.

Speaker 2 They could mimic the effects of adenosine in the brain or melatonin in the brain without putting these compounds into the body.

Speaker 2 but allowing the body to receive this signal as if it were under the influence of one of these these compounds. Now, I could, again, overgeneralize.

Speaker 2 I could see your PhD brain is like, that's not exactly correct, but I'm telling the story. It's my podcast.
So I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 So we sit down and he puts these,

Speaker 2 I put one on, my partner puts one on, and my CFO puts one on. And he goes, listen, I'm just going to dial up this sleep setting, this deep, deep sleep setting.

Speaker 2 And he starts running this deep sleep setting. I kid you not, within 60, maybe 90 seconds, my CFO is sitting in the lobby of the, of the Ritz-Carlton in this meeting with us, falling asleep.
And

Speaker 2 so he goes, you want me to wake you up?

Speaker 2 I'll run the caffeine setting. So a few minutes later, he turns on this caffeine setting and it shuts off the impulses for the influence of things like melatonin and I think it was THC.

Speaker 2 And it starts the impulse for the influence of caffeine. And he literally woke right up.
And then

Speaker 2 the rubber really hit the road because he said it on a THC setting. My CFO, if you're listening, Isaac, I love you, brother, but you're going under the bus on this one.

Speaker 1 And he's sitting there in this meeting.

Speaker 2 We're in Dubai, very formal meeting.

Speaker 2 We've met for the first time. He's got this thing around his neck and he starts running this THC setting.

Speaker 2 And a few minutes later, he starts having a fit of giggles and his eyes look watery and he takes a fist and he kind of bumps my partner in the leg and goes, you got to try this, bro, which is not how my CFO speaks.

Speaker 2 And then he started apologizing. He started laughing and they shut it back off, turned on the caffeine setting and he was quite, you know, like wide awake again.

Speaker 2 Had I not seen that or somebody had told me that the technology could do that before this meeting, I probably wouldn't have taken the meeting.

Speaker 2 Just given the limited information that I have and the fact that like my BS meter would have been up so high. But I witnessed it firsthand.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, my, all of us are like, how do we get one of those? How do we get one of those?

Speaker 2 And we, we, um, we all threw them around our neck. We started playing with them for the next day.

Speaker 2 But I flew home two days later from Dubai and there's a deep sleep setting on there that's, uh, and you can actually set the number of hours and for deep sleep. And I set it for eight hours.

Speaker 2 Now it could be completely coincidence and completely placebo, but I put my seat flat,

Speaker 2 you know, went to the bathroom, brushed my teeth, did all my stuff, put my eye mask on, I laid down the seat, I turned it on, and I woke up eight hours and two minutes later.

Speaker 2 And even for me, that has my sleep patterns pretty dialed in, to get eight straight hours of sleep on a plane is completely unheard of.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I've ever actually slept eight consistent hours without waking.

Speaker 2 So something's going on.

Speaker 1 So I would really love to talk about, you know, how your background led to the genesis of this technology, because we were talking before the podcast about how you always start out to do one thing with a technology and then you start finding out all of these other really interesting verticals and horizontal places where it has application so yeah i think that's a great transition because a lot of my you know before this job research at a startup also is i was thinking a lot in terms of inputs and outputs you can read the brain activity decode it and then stimulate the sensory output or the motor output uh and i think we can carry that concept through to what Happy is doing now.

Speaker 2 And that's what this device is called. It's called a HAP B, H-A-P-B-E.

Speaker 1 H-A-P-B-E-E.

Speaker 1 Happy Technologies. Yeah.
So we've been around a few years, but the technology itself actually has come through several stages of development and

Speaker 1 tens,

Speaker 1 almost $80 million in funding over... 15 years of development in a few different stages.
Wow.

Speaker 2 And this is starting spinal cord injury.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 totally unrelated.

Speaker 1 The technology itself, and I'm one of the co-founders of

Speaker 1 the happy building consumer-facing neckband. Well, I'm not one of the original inventors.
15 years ago, I wasn't that old. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you look pretty young.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to do the math on how old I was 15 years ago.

Speaker 1 But yeah, there was

Speaker 1 group

Speaker 1 in the U.S. Navy, a station in California, that was using this new technology called squid magnetometry,

Speaker 1 superconducting quantum inferometry devices, basically a way of measuring the smallest magnetic fields that we can measure.

Speaker 2 Inside of

Speaker 1 just in general, you take a set of electronics, you have to get liquid helium and cool the sensors down to absolute zero so you can record the tiniest little movement. It's a quantum sensing device.

Speaker 1 And they had built these arrays that they were using to try and sense military targets moving around in the Pacific Ocean, like really shielded nuclear subs, battleships thousands and thousands of miles away.

Speaker 2 Because I've heard somebody say that, you know, even though all these submarines and even, you know, warships have all of this technology to conceal themselves, they know where they all are.

Speaker 2 They probably know where all of our enemy subs are off of our coast, even if the enemy thinks that they're shielded from us. Is this the kind of technology?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was technology in that realm of trying to detect the tiny magnetic fields you give off. A magnetic field is created every time an electron moves.
So as even

Speaker 1 these fields are very tiny,

Speaker 1 they're always present. There's not a lot of shielding you can do from that.

Speaker 1 And the core technology itself was being applied in a military application, and kind of this splinter group of research scientists in that group said, well,

Speaker 1 we're looking for really big things really far away.

Speaker 1 What if we rebuilt the machine slightly and instead looked for really tiny things really close up?

Speaker 1 We know that the electron cloud of drugs is fairly consistent, right? If you think of a

Speaker 1 drug molecule moving, your high school biology ball and stick model is pretty rigid. But in actuality, it's a jiggling, twisting, flexing cloud of electrons moving.

Speaker 2 I remember those, you know, we all played with this, the stick and ball model in chemistry.

Speaker 2 And I guess that's just a way of getting us to understand, you know, molecular structure at its rudimentary level. But I agree with you.

Speaker 2 These things are very fluid and they're, you know, electrons are spinning and protons are spinning. And you've got an atom and a nucleus.
And so there's a lot of activity going on.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's not a static model. You know, we would take the little

Speaker 2 sticks out and plug it into another molecule and build molecules.

Speaker 2 But what you're saying is this, this electromagnetic field or this

Speaker 2 field that these electrons are creating, that's detectable.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Yeah, they're they're in the history of technology or in the history of happy, there have been kind of two big

Speaker 1 scientific,

Speaker 1 I would say, like inflection points. So the first breakthrough being, okay, we've we've rebuilt this recording machine in the lab.

Speaker 1 It's really fancy. It can detect some of the smallest magnetic fields ever recorded.

Speaker 1 What happens if we put a drug or a compound or a molecule in a biological

Speaker 1 put it in a biological, a lifelike situation and

Speaker 1 apply a voltage and line them all up. So basically you can line up all the molecules in solution at a certain concentration and then record

Speaker 1 some of that fuzzy, weird movement. How, with detectors very sensitive, can you get unique recordings from different compounds?

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Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human podcast.

Speaker 2 So just to hyper simplify it, you have a solution and let's say you dissolve melatonin or you dissolve caffeine or you dissolve CBD or any other compound.

Speaker 2 You're looking at the variance between what the solution resonated at initially. and what the field is like

Speaker 2 if you add this compound.

Speaker 1 And you're saying that's the that's the frequency of melatonin that's the frequency of caffeine and i i think an important distinction is we're not looking at like a specific uh frequency it's not melatonin is five hertz and cbd is ten hertz or 200 it's each of them is a very complex waveform i think the

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 you're not listening to a single tone in these recordings.

Speaker 1 It's an entire symphony that's capturing parts of all of that movement and exactly what parts of the molecule, the recordings are, probably we don't actually know yet.

Speaker 1 But you're getting unique, very complex recordings that are unique to each. That's what I was going to ask you.

Speaker 2 They're unique. So repeatably over and over and over and over and over again, these complex recordings are identical.
This fuzzy noise is identical when you have,

Speaker 1 yes, every time you record melatonin, it's the same fuzzy, fuzzy noise, but it's different from the CBD fuzzy noise.

Speaker 1 So it's not quite as clean as the nice sine waves you see in like neuro model products or the model you have.

Speaker 1 It would be nice if it was that way, but it's not.

Speaker 1 So step one was really just being able to record and see in the signal processing world that you're getting different recordings in this machine from different compounds. Yeah.
That's

Speaker 1 that was a nice little little scientific jump. Yeah.
I mean, that was massive. And then

Speaker 1 the next piece was, well, what happens if you can build a correctly shaped antenna that can replay that recording? And again, you know, think inputs and outputs.

Speaker 1 We can record the compound, but what happens when we project it?

Speaker 2 Try to transmit it. Yes.

Speaker 1 And for a large class of molecules, non-covalent interactions, if you think back to high school biology, that ball and stick model, the receptor and ligand, the lock and key, when they go in together and interact and something happens, when these non-covalent interactions, the lock and the key never actually touch.

Speaker 1 They just trade electrons in the right pattern.

Speaker 1 And if we've now got this recording of a compound that we know from traditional cellular biology methods is a non-covalent interaction, usually, what happens if we replay that field over biology?

Speaker 1 Does it respond as if the drug were there? Wow. So that was the second piece:

Speaker 1 okay, now that we're projecting these with a correctly shaped, sized, right amplitude, covering the right biology field,

Speaker 1 can you start seeing biological?

Speaker 2 It's not like a speaker, which is sort of this unidirectional sound wave, right? It oscillates, creates a sound wave. We perceive that as a tone.
you know,

Speaker 2 this is actually a moving really kind of a messy field. It's just sort of,

Speaker 2 you know, the

Speaker 2 atomic energy in there, for lack of better words, which is unique to certain compounds. You're actually recording that really fuzzy, staticky kind of,

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I remember being at dinner with

Speaker 2 one of your co-founders and he was telling me how

Speaker 2 someone that had some either ham radio experience or radio experience was happened to be in the lab and was listening to some of these recordings and

Speaker 2 some of the team thought that the recordings were not being picked up and what he said was no that that static that you're hearing that is the the

Speaker 1 what we're looking for that's the field that we're trying to measure yeah and and we're these recordings are being done very close to the noise floor on the signal processing side of what we're doing.

Speaker 1 There's all sorts of techniques to try and clean up these kind of very messy recordings to make that. So in a lab better.

Speaker 2 So in a lab, you're taking a solution or something and you are introducing a compound and then you are recording the

Speaker 2 electromagnetic smog, if you will, that that compound. is releasing and that electromagnetic smog and i'm making up my own words for the for the record because i don't have a PhD in

Speaker 2 biomedical engineering. But this electromagnetic smog, which is unique to that

Speaker 2 compound,

Speaker 2 you can not only record it, but then you can replay it.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Exactly as it occurs. Because if you played it any different, it wouldn't be that same

Speaker 1 compound.

Speaker 2 That's got to be

Speaker 2 because, first of all, the devices that would pick that up is one thing, but the devices that would re-transmit

Speaker 2 at those levels to me seem like you had to invent that side of the equation too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and actually the building the hardware and the product I'm wearing right now,

Speaker 1 we have two products we've built around this for actually being able to transmit these products.

Speaker 1 The physics of the transmission are much easier than the physics of the recording. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's a basically all of our products are engineered to have an antenna that creates the right shape and the right amplitude.

Speaker 1 So your speaker analogy earlier was kind of close on

Speaker 1 the volume is an important factor. It's got to be within a fairly narrow range, but also the shape of the field where the volume is correct

Speaker 1 is also important. So just kind of...

Speaker 1 building out the electronics around creating the right size fields in the right places so that they cover the relevant parts of your body while you're using them.

Speaker 2 What's wild to me is that

Speaker 2 a recording of a compound's field replayed into the body has the same effect as the presence of that molecule. Is that is that?

Speaker 1 It's I think the key point there, that is a wild thing to say a little bit, but also remember,

Speaker 1 we know in these non-covalent interactions, the lock and the key don't actually touch, right? They just trade electrons in the right pattern to trade some information.

Speaker 1 And that is what unlocks the receptor. It changes the conformation.

Speaker 1 And the vast majority of the interactions in our body, unless we're looking at, you know, consume metabolizing something and physically breaking a bond to make energy, are non-covalent.

Speaker 1 Most of our signal pathways are non-covalent interactions.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 you can influence the same level of

Speaker 2 interaction, whether you have the presence of the real compound or you have the presence of the recording of that compound.

Speaker 1 That's what we continue to see. Wow.

Speaker 2 So let's take this one step further. I don't know if you guys are following this, but

Speaker 2 I am fascinated by this

Speaker 2 because the idea that you could take a compound like melatonin or even caffeine and record its molecular energy, for lack of better words, and then replay that molecular energy into the body and have cellular structures and,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 gateways that are in the cell wall and the cell membrane, and even probably more importantly, the mitochondria, which has its own cell membrane.

Speaker 2 To play these recordings at this atomic level or at this, you know, molecular level and have those lock and key mechanisms respond as if the presence of that compound is there is fascinating to me because, you know, the implications to me just like your head wants to just

Speaker 2 explode. Because,

Speaker 2 you know, the issues, for example, with narcotic painkillers, for example, aren't the effect that it's exerting. at the time.

Speaker 2 It's the, all of the codependencies and the addictive cycles and, you know, the waste elimination pathways to get a lot of these compounds

Speaker 2 out of the body. Because as you know, know, cellular metabolism is a really dirty process.

Speaker 2 And when you introduce things into a human body that, you know, cells are influenced by, at some point, that influence not only diminishes, but it turns into other products that the body now has to get rid of, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, you pour gasoline into your engine, you run your car, now it's exhaust, it's vapor. It's going to the atmosphere.
It's just these, these energies are changing their state.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I I think there are a couple of points you made that are worth touching on.
And in the evolution of the technology, we've seen this also, right?

Speaker 1 Like the field is wide open in terms of going through all of the possible ways of showing, replicating every single drug. Like we're just starting out on that journey.

Speaker 1 We haven't been around that long.

Speaker 1 You know, there are multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical companies that are working on every mechanism of every drug known to man.

Speaker 1 And we've had to take a very limited subset so that we can kind of get to market and bring people this,

Speaker 2 bring the technology. So when did you realize that

Speaker 2 because this began as the Department of Defense Technology or Military Technology, I could see why they would want to know where all the submarines are under the ocean.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's got to be infinitely complex

Speaker 2 to listen through because the amount of noise between wherever your device is reading it and the object that you're trying to detect, I mean, there's all kinds of fish and water and molecules and,

Speaker 2 you know, and light and pressure and all kinds of things going on to be able to find these

Speaker 2 sounds

Speaker 2 and record them or at least identify it as that's a submarine, that's a ship, that's XYZ.

Speaker 2 What point did you think that you had a commercial product that could benefit humanity, like the one that you're wearing right now?

Speaker 2 And what compounds

Speaker 2 did you start with? Because I'm just thinking of like you guys sitting around the lab one day, and you're like, hey, Stan,

Speaker 2 we isolated melatonin. You guys start putting these things on, and everybody's falling asleep, or you get stimulated from caffeine.

Speaker 2 How did it go from being this technology, this recording and transmission device, into an actual wearable technology?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so

Speaker 1 first I wasn't around for all of that. I got brought in

Speaker 1 basically at the start of the

Speaker 1 let's turn it into consumer products. So

Speaker 1 the origin of the technology really went from, we can record these things

Speaker 1 in the lab.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 We are starting to see biological effects. What would be a really good candidate for

Speaker 1 proving the technology out first and foremost and the road that that group of scientists went down was chemotherapy is really awful for people to experience, especially for brain cancer, because you need to take such high doses that it can get through the blood-brain barrier.

Speaker 1 Well, here's a technology that, in theory, we can

Speaker 1 pass right through the blood-brain barrier without you having to take high doses.

Speaker 1 And it's controllable and it's localized and the cellular mechanisms for how those drugs work are fairly well understood. Can we step through

Speaker 1 recreating the effects of a brain cancer drug and go to market that way?

Speaker 1 And in the consumer space, so there's a big body of academic research on that, those set of specific pathways.

Speaker 1 And then the story, as it was told to me, was one night while they had the machine cooled down. It's a very expensive process to cool the machine down and keep it cool.
It's not always going.

Speaker 1 So you do recordings in batches.

Speaker 1 But somebody had brought in

Speaker 1 some alcohol. So somebody went rogue and decided, well, what if the machine's already on? What if we just

Speaker 1 have the house?

Speaker 1 What if we just record it? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So they recorded the alcohol.

Speaker 1 So they recorded, recorded, and

Speaker 1 then,

Speaker 1 you know, a couple weeks later, after the processing, somebody decided, well,

Speaker 1 we don't really know what's going going to happen but can we

Speaker 1 just give it a try yeah play the freak go rug again and yeah give it a try yeah and uh it didn't take very long uh for for those guys to realize that

Speaker 1 oh no i i feel a couple of drinks in yeah so five minutes in and uh

Speaker 1 this is a definitely an alternative to to what people are doing right now. And

Speaker 1 that was about the time I had been finishing my PhD. I was doing another startup earlier on

Speaker 1 in the physical therapy rehab space. And

Speaker 1 I got a call one day saying, hey,

Speaker 1 I think we're going to try and spin this out into a consumer product. You know electronics, you know a little bit of software, you know, you know, recording stimulation closed-loop technology.

Speaker 1 You wanna

Speaker 1 you wanna come do this?

Speaker 2 Were you like fascinated by it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I had been following the technology for a little while because it was on, you know, when you look at PMF, when you look at

Speaker 1 transcranial magnetic stimulation, when you look at T ACS, there's electrical stimulus, there's all these modalities. And here's one that, while it is also magnetic, is

Speaker 1 very unique. Most of these technologies, right, are fairly single use,

Speaker 1 right?

Speaker 1 When you think of a device for a specific purpose, it's a vagal nerve stimulator for X.

Speaker 1 There's a protocol for X. If

Speaker 1 it's on your neck, it's for X. If it's in your ear, it's for Y.

Speaker 1 If it's mediated through your median nerve on your wrist, it's for Z.

Speaker 1 But there's a technology platform that

Speaker 1 can be multifunctional, right? The same piece of hardware can be used for multiple different use cases.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 now someone's in the lab, they have some alcohol, they record the,

Speaker 2 well,

Speaker 2 I keep saying electro

Speaker 2 smog, for lack of better words. They record this cloud, this field, that is the

Speaker 2 way that the molecule of alcohol is resonating. And then they take that recording and then they return that.

Speaker 2 recording back into the body and the person is under the influence of alcohol or feels like they're under the influence of alcohol. And when they turn it off, they're no longer under the influence.

Speaker 2 Because I've actually heard of you guys having parties with these things where you put them over everybody's head, and everybody gets a little dose of alcohol, and everybody's kind of social and buzzing around.

Speaker 2 And then, when it's time to go, you shut it off and give everyone a little caffeine, and out the door they go, and your bone's sober, and your blood alcohol level is zero

Speaker 2 or near zero, and

Speaker 2 you're not under the influence of anything.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we did a pop-up activation actually earlier this year.

Speaker 1 We ran

Speaker 1 the world's first completely non-alcoholic bar in Dublin, Ireland.

Speaker 2 Literally, people came in and you put this necklace over their head.

Speaker 1 Gave them a

Speaker 1 zero, and

Speaker 1 our hypothesis was if we can convince them that they're enjoying the sensation. It was a group of people with a very specific view on how you're supposed to imbibe.

Speaker 2 If we could get imbibe,

Speaker 1 you're not very popular over there.

Speaker 2 They take your beer very seriously in Ireland.

Speaker 1 If we could convince them

Speaker 1 that the experience of using happy alongside

Speaker 1 traditional NA beverages was enjoyable,

Speaker 1 we felt very confident

Speaker 1 we can convince anybody.

Speaker 2 So how did that go? Did you actually have it at a pub?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. We took over on the south side of Dublin an NA bar for about 60 days.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, and I'm just, I'm fascinated by the recruiting process where you're like, hey, who wants to come in and not get drunk, but get drunk without drinking and wear this necklace?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was already a public health.

Speaker 2 I don't see a bunch of burly Irish dudes bearded going, yeah, mate, I want to participate.

Speaker 1 There were certainly people that walked in the door that were very confused. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's wild. So you put all these, you put these happy devices over everybody's neck.
You run the frequency of alcohol

Speaker 2 and they felt under the influence. Did you monitor their, did you give them questionnaires?

Speaker 1 I did questionnaires before and after, and then just, you know, general, did you,

Speaker 1 what did you feel? Describe it. Did you feel something? How confident were you? And also, did you enjoy the experience also? Right.

Speaker 1 Technology without an application isn't.

Speaker 1 a really great technology. Right.
So.

Speaker 2 And then, and when it was all said and done, you shut it off, maybe ran the caffeine

Speaker 2 five to to wake them back up, but the but there

Speaker 2 there was no,

Speaker 2 they may have been under the influence of alcohol, but there's no alcohol in their bloodstream.

Speaker 2 So the liver's not processing this, the liver's not turning it into acetyl aldehyde, their blood's not getting acidic, and they're not damaging their brain.

Speaker 2 They're not going the vasoconstrictive process, all of the downsides that we have with alcohol, because I think alcohol, like so many other things,

Speaker 2 we're willing to make this exchange.

Speaker 2 You know, we're going to take some of the bad to get the good. Oh, it makes, you know, it removes my social inhibitions.

Speaker 2 I get it, it's going to interrupt my sleep. I'm going to wake up with a headache tomorrow, but I'm going to have a really good night.
You know,

Speaker 2 and you could probably say this for all kinds of things. You know, I'd rather not take Tylenol or ibuprofen because I know it's hard on my liver or hard on my gut microbiome,

Speaker 2 but the pain is

Speaker 2 worth the, you know, the detriment of the pain is worth, you know, the downside that some of these compounds have. It is absolutely, I'm still fascinated by this.

Speaker 2 It is absolutely fascinating to me that you can isolate this electromagnetic smog, for lack of better words. You can impart this

Speaker 2 frequency into the body, and then the body reacts as though it's under that influence. And as soon as you remove it, that influence stops.

Speaker 2 Like many of you, the hardest thing for me is to shut off my mind at night when I want to sleep.

Speaker 2 And And it's funny because sometimes I'll wake up tired already thinking of when I'll get back to bed again.

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Speaker 1 As a natural activation process, there is still a roll-off, right? Most of these pathways are pathways, and when you kick them off, other things happen. So yeah, not zero seconds instant,

Speaker 1 but in terms of something like caffeine affecting your sleep because you had coffee at three o'clock and it's still in your body at 11 p.m.

Speaker 1 We're talking about effect roll-off and users

Speaker 1 seeing the ability to not recognize sensation anymore on the order of minutes, single-digit minutes. Wow.

Speaker 1 Versus hours and hours.

Speaker 2 I mean, so for people

Speaker 2 can't sleep, I mean, my wife and I have both been using it. I haven't been popularizing it just because, number one, I didn't think that people would even believe it.

Speaker 2 Um, and then secondly, I wanted to use it for a long enough duration of time

Speaker 2 that I knew it wasn't just placebo, that it was actually having a material effect. One of the things that your team brought over to my house a few weeks ago was a

Speaker 2 sort of soft mattress form,

Speaker 2 it's kind of like this thing.

Speaker 2 Um, this is actually it.

Speaker 2 It was larger than this one. And we were in the middle of the meeting during dinner and they walked me, they walked me back to

Speaker 2 my bedroom. And I took my house manager with me and we laid down on this pad and they ran, I think it was adenosine, THC, and melatonin.
There was a combination of three things.

Speaker 2 And within just a few minutes, I could feel it like sinking me, pulling me into the mattress. And I really wanted them to leave and let me go to sleep, but they didn't.

Speaker 2 No offense, guys. But

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 then they, you know, ran, I put the necklace on, ran the caffeine setting, and I was legitimately back, back awake.

Speaker 2 So the implications, the potential implications of this are astounding.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you touched on sleep as kind of the core piece in our user base right now, right? We've we've broadly taken these recordings. We have seven different compounds there.

Speaker 1 The thought early in the company's idea was

Speaker 1 most drugs, the vast majority of drugs, if you take a statin,

Speaker 1 you don't feel it. Right.
Like,

Speaker 1 how do we prove to the people who use the product?

Speaker 1 And how do we build the form factors in a way that matches their daily lives? We have the wearable for during the day.

Speaker 1 And then what we actually ended up seeing on the customer journey was that we're going through, okay, what are people actually playing? What are they doing? And

Speaker 1 to this day, over 70% of the content like played on our platform is related to sleep.

Speaker 2 Yes. Because I mean, sleep is our human superpower.
And most people really struggle with sleep without getting tranquilized to go to sleep, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, we're not talking about zolipenum, nitrate, niazbam, lunesta, all those things, annex, that actually just tranquilize you to go to sleep, which I would argue is actually not really sleeping if you look at sleep quality when you're under the influence of.

Speaker 1 Most professionals agree with that.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 you don't see an improvement of sleep quality. You see

Speaker 2 a duration of not being conscious or aware, if that's what you want to call it. And, you know, they're interpreting that as sleep, which I guess is better than not getting any at all.

Speaker 1 But.

Speaker 2 You know, the idea that you could actually mimic some of these natural compounds. So in terms of the sleep realm, because there's

Speaker 2 a lot of people that struggle with sleep and don't want to take sleep medication and also don't like the influence that it has on them sometimes the next morning, groggy, exhausted, poor focus, taking, you know, hours to sort of get out of the mud and get your day going.

Speaker 1 Don't drive heavy machinery. Don't drive heavy machinery.

Speaker 2 So talk about some of the compounds that you have for sleep and what you're seeing in the community that's using these so far.

Speaker 2 Because I think a lot of my audience would be very interested in, you know, if I could take this thing on a plane and lay down on top of it or, um, or even put it in my bed and sleep on it and this can hold me in deep sleep, um,

Speaker 2 you know, I'm in. But what, what, what are you using to do that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so we're, I would say three things have been kind of the go-to stack

Speaker 1 for people improving their sleep. And, and the vast majority of our users track their sleep with an aura ring or a whoop or through Apple Help or Google Fit.

Speaker 1 So we're, we're seeing pretty impressive uh increases in in sleep quality uh across the board. But

Speaker 2 sleep quality is not just duration that they're in bed. You're saying REM sleep, deep sleep, sleep latency.
Sleep latency.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's

Speaker 1 I would say there's kind of

Speaker 1 two

Speaker 1 areas that that we've really seen improvement. And surprisingly, one, and this is the evolution of the company as well, was people using CBD or alcohols and anxiolytic before going to bed.

Speaker 1 My problem going to bed is anxiolytic. While I'm sleeping, it's anti-anxiety before I go to bed because I lay there for hours at a time and I can prep myself for getting ready to go to bed.

Speaker 1 My sleep routine starts well before I lay down on a mattress. Right.

Speaker 1 So we had users that were sending in customer service tickets saying, well,

Speaker 1 it has been great, but like it's really uncomfortable to fall asleep with a rubberized all-day wearable neckband. Right, right.

Speaker 2 Well, some of your new iterations, I've seen some in the future. They almost look like pendants

Speaker 1 that you wear.

Speaker 2 They're actually very attractive or straight pendants,

Speaker 2 almost like jewelry that would go under your shirt. You wouldn't even notice.
And maybe somebody that you're talking to wouldn't even notice you were wearing it.

Speaker 2 And do you wear this thing all the time?

Speaker 2 Because when we sat down, you said you were running nicotine. I guess that's for your

Speaker 1 alertness.

Speaker 1 I think the other thing we've seen with all of these users is it's very personalized.

Speaker 1 And that's been the whole the view on the platform is give users the choice to to do the things that they want to help uh they want help with whether it's sleep or not.

Speaker 1 Like my number one use, I will use it uh to help fall asleep on flights and stay asleep on

Speaker 1 travel.

Speaker 1 Uh and then the other one is mid-afternoon. I I live in Seattle and will admit that I have a coffee problem.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 in the afternoons, I also get hit on the afternoon slump very bad.

Speaker 1 So being able to have an alternative to turn to at one or two o'clock in the afternoon that isn't going to affect my structure of sleep, but keep me focused and awake and alert.

Speaker 2 So if I was able to actually see or view this electromagnetic field, right? Like turn the lights off and with the black light to detect electromagnetic field kind of thing.

Speaker 2 What would it look like is happening around your neck right now? It would be a cloud. It's not just a frequency.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you actually want to hand me the one next to you there. This one? Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So the device itself is fairly simple. There's some electronics.
It had a light and a button, but like when it's on and creating projection, it's about seven inches above and below.

Speaker 1 You can kind of think of it like a volume.

Speaker 1 So yeah, it's a coil inside here making a uniform magnetic field that all sees the same

Speaker 1 field amplitude and direction. So, we can basically project

Speaker 1 above and around where the wear was down into my chest and up into my brain. Yep, brain, spinal cord, and our library of compounds now are things that are neuroactive.
Right.

Speaker 1 And like that, that was part of the piece, right? Our sleep pad coil is larger so that it can make its way through your pillow and give you that same level of coverage for melatonin

Speaker 1 over the course of the night or adenosine as you lay down to help build sleep pressure.

Speaker 2 So you,

Speaker 2 it looks like a giant field. Like

Speaker 2 I remember, you know, when I was growing up, the coolest thing were those electro

Speaker 2 static lights. It had like a glass bulb in it, had a bulb in the middle, remember, and had the glass ball around it.

Speaker 2 I'm dating myself with this, and you'd put your hand on it, and all the electricity would go to your hand. It was like the coolest thing, you know, in 1988.

Speaker 2 And so this is like a field, maybe, you know, without all the electricity and stuff, but this is a field.

Speaker 2 And you put this field, you put your, you immerse your, your brain and your spinal cord and your, and your chest and your body into this field. And wherever that field is transmitting,

Speaker 1 your

Speaker 2 cellular structures within that field are responding as if they're exposed to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that's still so fascinating.
It's important about magnetic fields versus electric fields. Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're two sides of the same coin, but the electric fields get attenuated by a whole bunch of stuff. Your skin, your skull, the salt water sack that your brain sits in.

Speaker 1 By the time something on the outside of your head actually puts simulation into your brain, it's been spread out and muddled pretty severely. Right.

Speaker 1 Whereas magnetic fields will pass through the blood-brain barrier, will pass through bone, will pass through fluid, no problem,

Speaker 1 unless you have a giant steel plate in your head.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 these magnetic fields are the transmission field that you're using to reach the target tissue. So

Speaker 2 what are some of the compounds that you're using for sleep that

Speaker 2 you've now recorded and that you can transmit?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so

Speaker 1 on the sleep side, we're looking at adenosine and melatonin, the hormone for regulating circadian rhythm and sleep-wake cycle, and adenosine, which is the

Speaker 1 complement of caffeine. In fact, adenosine is the natural version of caffeine.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors to keep you awake.

Speaker 1 Adenosine builds over the course of the day to make you feel sleepy in the evenings.

Speaker 2 And then caffeine blocks adenosine.

Speaker 2 One of the reasons why I tell people to actually delay their coffee intake 60 to 90 minutes is to allow that buildup to occur so that you actually have a greater effect from caffeine than doing it sort of, you know, just opening your eyes and whacking back a coffee.

Speaker 2 you know, giving your, giving those adenosine receptors time to saturate because when caffeine competes with more receptors, it has a more positive effect.

Speaker 2 But this could have the same effect as caffeine, or does have the same effect as caffeine without the presence or the downside.

Speaker 2 So, where do you see this technology going?

Speaker 2 Because, you know, your head explodes when you start thinking of all of the different compounds that it would be incredible to introduce to your cellular biology without the negative side effects of the processing of those compounds.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and our view on it has been:

Speaker 1 what can we get people right now?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 where then does the future go? And as I said earlier, the initial focus was seven compounds that when you wear the device, you can feel.

Speaker 1 Let's start with things that are discernible.

Speaker 1 And let's start with a product line of things where people can

Speaker 1 actually use the product today

Speaker 1 and kind of go from there. So that's why we've got a wearable, we've got a slide in your pillow or under your pillow sleep pad.
And

Speaker 1 the piece from there next is what are the tools now that you can control this digitally by delivery, but also digitally by

Speaker 1 all of the factors that you have available to you as part of building a healthy digital habit on your phone, right?

Speaker 1 You can choose when

Speaker 1 to use compounds. You can build schedules.
You can like, how do we tie this into everyday life and behavior? And we've started with just giving people free reign control of push-play and go.

Speaker 1 And for me, the future is really coming back to what are the pieces of closing this loop, right? There are a lot of, especially in the biohacking space, there are a lot of measurement.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of inputs.

Speaker 1 We've got the difference of wrist-mounted wearables and finger-mounted wearables and chest straps and

Speaker 1 respiration. There are a lot of things we can measure.

Speaker 1 There are a lot fewer things that are outputs and closing the loop. And Happy's, you know, I see Happy very much as playing nice with all of these different output and input technologies.

Speaker 1 How do we take your sleep data and not only tell you what's

Speaker 1 wrong, right? Like we can,

Speaker 1 there's a a lot of interpretation of wearable data now, but there's not a lot of actionable output.

Speaker 2 Right. And when you say there's not a lot of actionable output,

Speaker 2 the wearable is saying, here's your sleep score, here's your recovery, here's your strain in the case of WOOP, and I wear WOOP,

Speaker 2 or your...

Speaker 2 Heart rate variability was a little low tonight, your respiratory volume

Speaker 2 rate was a little bit of low.

Speaker 2 So you can't take that data now

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 create something in real time that would address that. But you're,

Speaker 2 are you saying that HAPB will eventually be able to take input data, highly individualized, right? Like from my, from my whoop, that says that, you know, I've been in bed for X period of time.

Speaker 2 My heart rate variability is low. My respiratory rate is low.

Speaker 2 I haven't been able to get into REM or deep sleep. And it could take that data and potentially redirect it and say, okay, we're going to increase the amount of melatonin organism.

Speaker 1 There is a change in timing. It's coming soon.

Speaker 2 Okay. And

Speaker 2 you said you have seven compounds now. Yep.
That it can effectively mimic and put you,

Speaker 2 for lack of better words, under the influence of that compound without that compound being in your body. And what are some of those?

Speaker 2 You know, sleep, obviously.

Speaker 1 So on the sleep side, melatonin, an adenosine,

Speaker 1 CBDTHC,

Speaker 1 alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, and theobromine, the caffeine analogy. That's in chocolate.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 what's super exciting about that is that, you know,

Speaker 2 people, there's a process called tachyphylaxis in the human body, right? A desensitization response.

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, you sit down next to a woman who's wearing amazing perfume, and 30 minutes later, you can't smell the perfume, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, that desensitization, that tachyphylactic response has dulled your senses to picking up that that scent any longer it's not that she took the perfume off it's that you don't smell it because you've desensitized is there is there a similar tachyphylactic effect where we would either build the tolerance

Speaker 2 or build the dependency um or or or some kind of desensitization.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just because of the way we think the product works. We would expect there to be a little bit of desensitization over the long term

Speaker 1 use and time.

Speaker 2 Getting used to it kind of thing. Okay.
But no detriment.

Speaker 1 And as soon as you take it up, like this is a the perfume you can take off.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that you kind of can.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 in your mind.

Speaker 2 What are the great applications for this technology going forward? How are you guys going to make your impact on the world?

Speaker 1 I think we're going to continue to see it jumping through sleep on the consumer side. Oh, man, my audience is like really, really interested now.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sleep is the one where it's easy for somebody to use the product for 30 days, line up your usage against your sleep latency score or your overall sleep score

Speaker 1 and prove to yourself that

Speaker 1 it's working and it's working for me.

Speaker 1 Broadly speaking, we're also seeing a bunch of applications. Our content is loosely bucketed around sleep, mood, and performance.

Speaker 2 Sleep, mood, and performance. Yeah.
So talk a little bit about what you're doing in each of those categories. You have three

Speaker 2 essentially settings for sleep, and these are three

Speaker 2 recordings of

Speaker 2 compounds that you're then going to play into the body, transmit into the body.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 what specifically are those compounds?

Speaker 1 So, in sleep, it's melatonin and adenosine.

Speaker 2 Melaton and adenosine, because there's a THC on there

Speaker 2 too. And I think that's what they added to mine the other night.
And that's what, like, literally made me feel like I'm sinking down in the mattress. And I don't do any drugs.
I don't

Speaker 2 touch weed or anything like that.

Speaker 2 It's not that I'm opposed to it

Speaker 2 or even CBDs. And

Speaker 2 some people swear by CBDs, just you know, for sleep and for pain. But it was a noticeable difference.
And within just a few minutes of

Speaker 2 putting it on. And so now my body feels that I'm under the influence of those compounds.

Speaker 2 When I wake up, I can just simply shut it off.

Speaker 1 Or you can set it so that it turns off while you're asleep.

Speaker 2 Oh, so it actually gets you into sleep and then it gets you into sleep.

Speaker 1 And you can build out the content structure so that you have full control over

Speaker 1 when and where things are broadcast.

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Speaker 2 Now let's get back to the ultimate human podcast. And since your body believes that you're under the influence of whatever compound, is there a chance that you build

Speaker 2 a tolerance to THC or to CBD or to the pain medication?

Speaker 2 I always wonder, what about somebody that doesn't drink? Like I don't drink any longer.

Speaker 2 I drank. uh not not so long ago but i've just cut it out of my life because of the the detriments to my physiology.
So if I were to use that,

Speaker 2 I could experience the effects of alcohol and not have the downside and consequences.

Speaker 1 And we have seen in the user base so far, right, like people like me and my own personal example, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I drink way too much coffee in the morning and the caffeine signal. is not particularly notable to me because I have a higher caffeine tolerance than

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 the we would expect and do continue to see

Speaker 1 like personal tolerances and

Speaker 1 responses varying just like the source compounds would.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it seems to me too that the applications are so vast, especially for

Speaker 2 addiction, for example.

Speaker 2 Most people are not smoking or vaping because they like smoking or vaping, it's because of the nicotine.

Speaker 2 And you could, although I'm down the road of all of the positive health benefits on nicotine now, some some of the nicotine is not even tobacco-derived nicotine, but just talking about the compound nicotine, um, have you looked at any implications for addictions like like smoking?

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're we're we're starting to look into

Speaker 1 into that area more where we've seen on on the mood side has actually been in um

Speaker 1 veterans' health.

Speaker 1 And we've done a bunch of work uh with a a veterans reintegration group out of just up the street in Florida here

Speaker 1 on using HAPI as a on-demand tool when folks who are struggling with reintegration

Speaker 1 coming back in can turn to a modality to turn on or off a sensation.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 And how's that going? What do they report when they're, you know, if you have... If you have someone that's addicted to a certain compound and,

Speaker 2 you know, is getting that addressed you know

Speaker 1 you can actually introduce that compound without any of the negative side effects for them yeah and and and provide for compounds not in our library an alternative uh for people to turn to when uh times are are tough we received an award for being the most effective tool for suicide prevention from from this group that works with very at-risk veterans uh the gray team coming through on as just being integrated as part of their treatment plan of folks who need a tool to turn to because they're not sleeping.

Speaker 1 And it wasn't that it was one specific piece. For each person, it was individual their problems were coming from not being able to sleep or struggling with alcohol or other addictive problems

Speaker 1 and being a tool in the toolkit that you could turn to on demand and over a guided long period of time during reintegration gave them the power to really help those folks.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 where do you see this going in terms of performance? You know,

Speaker 2 you were talking about the three big areas that you guys are trying to address. I mean, first of all, sleep, to me, is where we should all start, right? I believe that sleep is our human superpower.

Speaker 2 If you're not sleeping, you're not healing, you're not regenerating, you're not, you know, your cells are not eliminating waste, repairing, detoxifying.

Speaker 2 You know, we know that our

Speaker 2 brain's glymphatic system, which is like the lymph system in the brain, is active in waste elimination

Speaker 2 at night.

Speaker 2 So the only time that the brain really detoxifies is during this deep

Speaker 2 sleep cycle. And in the REM cycle, we're assembling our memories from the day with our subconscious and creating learned behaviors and learn memory.
So

Speaker 2 learn memories. It seems to me like if you have compounds that are available to enhance that, they get all of the benefits of that deep sleep cycle without any of the detriments.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I firmly believe sleep will continue to be the starting point for most people.

Speaker 1 What we're seeing uptake more on the performance side is actually coming in professional athletes.

Speaker 2 And what can you do for professional athletes, let's say?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and this is something I wouldn't have guessed at the start of the company coming in, but a lot of the professional athlete use of the product whether it's nba players whether it's uh premier league soccer teams whether it's nhl teams has been around uh pre-match uh warm-up and and education right these guys that are either uh

Speaker 1 very nervous before games and and need to relax or folks who uh are too hyped up or are not hyped up enough and and need a boost early on so on the on the sports performance side of

Speaker 1 kind of our professional athlete uptake, it's been around pregame management and then also sleep and travel on, you know, guys taking five flights a week to go playing like

Speaker 1 wild sleep schedules in the professional sports worlds.

Speaker 1 So between that and then the third piece we'll see is like during film review.

Speaker 1 Sit down, focus, put on nicotine, make it through 30 minutes of film study, make it through reading a playbook, make it through

Speaker 1 listening to the coaching report

Speaker 1 before moving on. So again, it's multifaceted, but kind of.

Speaker 2 Do you envision a day, maybe not in the not so distant future, where

Speaker 2 even doctor's offices and hospitals and care providers

Speaker 2 put this around somebody's neck and prescribe that whatever whatever medication is. And this app sort of runs on a

Speaker 2 timer. And,

Speaker 2 well, I guess it wouldn't do that because I was thinking, you know, dosing your pain medication or dosing your thyroid medication or dosing any other medication for that matter,

Speaker 2 where you could,

Speaker 2 instead of having them ingest that compound, you just start transmitting that

Speaker 1 there's certainly frequency. Oh, yeah, a world there.
We've

Speaker 1 done kind of pilots in two places, actually, a dentist's office for folks who have significant anxiety in the waiting room.

Speaker 1 And then also

Speaker 1 with this veterans group, folks that have so much physical pain,

Speaker 1 they can't come in to do a workup session without getting that treated and addressed early on and being able to do

Speaker 1 CBD delivery for them before

Speaker 1 they start. the rest of their protocol has been the starting point of that in our journey.

Speaker 2 And to date, have you guys conducted any of your own independent research?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so on our side, there's been kind of two pieces to it. One is core technology on the recordings of the drug, the advancement of the

Speaker 1 base research. And then the other side is the applied science of animal pain studies, animal.

Speaker 2 How would it mitigate pain other than if you had a pain medication, um

Speaker 2 you would send that that into the body and the body would respond as if it were under that infant and in in our case that that compound is is cbd in the cb2 receptor pathway that's mostly in your in your spinal column and how hard is it to add you you in order to add a new um product or you know a new compound that it's mimicking

Speaker 2 what's the process to to do that because i noticed it's an app so I assume that you could update that app remotely and as you guys come out with more technological innovations, you know this this necklace goes from being like asleep and Slightly mentally alert and maybe a neurotropic into being all kinds of things Yep, that's it.

Speaker 1 That's exactly right. Yeah, so there's the basically just go go through the recording process go through some

Speaker 1 Animal validation work maybe some cellular validation work and then bring it onto the platform.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean the uh

Speaker 2 again, the possibilities are just endless. So sleep is the primary focus.
Where do your users go from there? What do you see after that? The caffeine settings?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think what predominantly what we see is people will start either with the sleep pad

Speaker 1 for sleep only, and then they'll realize that, oh, I can expand use with the wearable during the day, or we'll see.

Speaker 1 people who come onto the neckband start using it for sleep and and expand uh to be two product users I mean,

Speaker 2 is there any detriment to using it over and over and over again? Like

Speaker 2 when you sat down, you were running the nicotine setting.

Speaker 2 It was interfering with the mic, so we turned it off, but you're running the nicotine setting and now you're running nothing, right? Yep.

Speaker 2 Do you already feel that nicotine has dropped in your

Speaker 1 right away? It was before we were on. even on camera, I think.

Speaker 2 Wow, that's just so wild. I mean,

Speaker 2 you know, eventually the idea that you can integrate those into mattresses or any number of other products that become true biohacking modalities. You know, I'm always

Speaker 2 I'm a huge fan of this term biostacking, because to me, what biostacking means is you take, you know, multiple multiple devices, biohacking devices, and you just try to to do them instead of in sequence, but do them together.

Speaker 2 Like, for example, I tell I'm always preaching on social media about the importance of breath breathwork and sunlight and grounding. Those three just simple things.

Speaker 2 But you could package

Speaker 2 all of that together at one time. Like, for example,

Speaker 2 I will sit on the beach sometimes, let the sunlight hit my skin while I'm grounded, and I'll do rounds of breathwork. So instead of having...

Speaker 2 three separate 20-minute segments, I have one 20-minute segment and we put it all together. I kind of see the same thing happening here where somebody were wearing this device.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 the physician could say, here's your prescription. It's loaded into your app.

Speaker 2 And when you wake up in the morning, you know, just let HapB know that you're awake and it will run your synthroid because that has to be done 30 minutes before meals and it has to be done completely by itself.

Speaker 2 Then your next medication is going to start here. You know, you're going to run

Speaker 2 something for your blood pressure.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 are you

Speaker 2 saying that there's almost no field from any compound that you can't record and then translate? That's covalent?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So

Speaker 1 and what we've seen from everything from like small molecules to like short interfering RNA to like big molecules, still microscopic, right, but relatively large is that these recordings are very unique compound by compound.

Speaker 1 So in theory, yeah, we we should be able to do a whole bunch of this stuff.

Speaker 2 But, I and is there any bio

Speaker 2 individuality?

Speaker 2 Like, like, you know, because if you and I both took the same number of milligram strengths of melatonin, and everybody listening to this podcast, there would be vastly different reactions to it.

Speaker 2 Some people would say, Oh my God, it felt like I got switched hit by a sledgehammer. Couldn't even get out of bed the next day.
I was so sluggish.

Speaker 2 Um, and then other people would say, Yeah, I didn't, didn't feel it at all. Is there that bioindividuality to

Speaker 1 on the way that we have these platforms? Absolutely, there is. Yeah.
So you have to play with it. And we would expect you have to play with it a little bit and

Speaker 1 we'll see

Speaker 1 customer onboarding.

Speaker 1 This is where people say,

Speaker 1 I'm very sensitive to caffeine. Right.
And people will turn it on and have an unpleasant experience because they're

Speaker 1 15-ish.

Speaker 1 I forget the exact number,

Speaker 1 but a significant percent of people are aversive to caffeine. Oh, yeah.
Biologically aversive to caffeine. And

Speaker 2 yeah, they can't process it. There's a, is it the CYP?

Speaker 2 Forget the exact gene mutation.

Speaker 1 You're not going to get it from me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's there is a gene mutation that breaks down caffeine either quickly or slowly.

Speaker 2 My wife was so happy because we actually had a genetic scientist over here months ago, and we did this

Speaker 2 big genetic test. And when he was going through the results, she was so she was like, if I can't have more than one cup of coffee a day, I am out.

Speaker 2 Because we were looking at caffeine metabolism. Luckily, she's a very fast metabolizer of it.
So she can actually drink more coffee and have more later in the day.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 this report recommended that I only drink one because I'm a slow metabolizer of caffeine. And I kind of find that on my own.
I really don't need caffeine. I've got

Speaker 2 quite a bit of energy most days. But because of that, I've limited my cups of coffee to one.
But in this case, I'm not metabolizing it, right?

Speaker 2 I'm under the influence of caffeine.

Speaker 1 And there will be similar biological profiling on receptor availability.

Speaker 1 We would expect there to still be personalized.

Speaker 2 So somebody could get this and, you know, their husband or their wife puts it on is like out like they got hit by a ton of bricks and then they have no effect.

Speaker 2 So they have to sort of start playing with

Speaker 1 something else yeah it's it's very much a personalized output that's that is just so wild it's it

Speaker 2 i mean it really proves that these fields are exerting the effect that you're that you're after so

Speaker 2 um you know i gotta ask what

Speaker 2 where does where does this happy technology go from from here so you as a as a scientist you've got to be first of all fascinated to see um

Speaker 2 because I'm sure in biomedical engineering,

Speaker 2 maybe there are times where you get to see a product have a mass market effect on humanity.

Speaker 2 But I mean, this has got to be pretty rewarding for you to see that you can have, your laboratory science can have a real mass market effect on humanity.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I think at least we certainly like the reason for bringing it out into the consumer space as opposed to just keeping it medical only was very much how quickly can we affect everybody's lives?

Speaker 1 This is, this isn't something to be held back.

Speaker 2 And if this engineer that developed it for the military, I mean,

Speaker 2 is the technology owned by the military?

Speaker 1 No, it's just developed and

Speaker 1 iterated from.

Speaker 2 They're like, yeah, we're looking for submarines. You guys put all the people to sleep you want.

Speaker 1 We're not worried about it. Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, fascinating.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I definitely want to have you back on the podcast because this whole innovation of wearables to me

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 this conversion that is happening right now between artificial intelligence, big data,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 early detection. But in this case, if you are able to take massive amounts of data,

Speaker 2 presumably from wearables

Speaker 2 and create an actionable response.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's, you know, so that as I'm going through the day, you know, my whoop is transmitting and it's telling me my strain and my, you know, all of my biometrics are in there.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there are things that you could potentially do to follow the data in real time on someone's wearable and say, wow, they're not getting into REM sleep. Let's secrete melatonin.
Let's secrete adenosine.

Speaker 2 Let's bring in some THC and actually in real time, take that data and create such a personalized experience, but they're not under the influence of anything.

Speaker 2 I mean, and they're not, they don't have the detriments of those things. And if they wanted to remove,

Speaker 2 you know, essentially the influence that that field was having on them,

Speaker 2 they could do so. It's like if you take a Tylenol PM and you want to get out of bed two hours later, forget it.

Speaker 2 If you like pop an ambien and you're like, oh, shoot, I got to go to the airport and pick up my, there's none of that going going on, right? I mean, because

Speaker 2 you are now subject to whatever the half-life is of that compound and exerting its effect. And you're just going to have to ride it out.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you had eight Guinness,

Speaker 2 there's no way you're getting in the car in an hour. You've got to, you know, you've got to wait for your blood alcohol to come down, but this would happen so much faster.

Speaker 2 Man, it's just super fascinating to me.

Speaker 2 So for my audience that doesn't know you or know about this technology, where do they find you? Where do they find out about this technology?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the easiest place to keep track of us is just our website, happy.com.

Speaker 2 And then I

Speaker 1 pea.com. Yeah, it's always a tough one to

Speaker 2 help the people. Happy.com.
And you guys are talking about

Speaker 2 this is widely available for consumers now. Yep.
So somebody's struggling with sleep. What would you say the biggest implication is for this technology right now? If I'm a listener

Speaker 2 and I have this condition,

Speaker 2 this would be the most appropriate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think

Speaker 1 what we've really seen is if you're having trouble falling asleep in those first early stages, that's the most clear grab sleep pad, flip it onto melatonin adenosine, and knock yourself out.

Speaker 1 Knock yourself out.

Speaker 2 Like literally knock yourself out.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 we're going to go into my VIP room now because every time I have a guest on, I bring them into my VIP's room to allow them to ask questions directly.

Speaker 2 So, if you're interested in becoming one of my ultimate human VIPs, go over to theultimathuman.com and just sign up to be one of my VIP members. So, you can have private podcasts with our guests.

Speaker 2 I also do

Speaker 2 live coaching, group coaching sessions in there. I write all kinds of specific content for the VIPs.
So, go over to theultimathuman.com and sign up to be one of my VIP members.

Speaker 2 But I I end every podcast I wind down the same way by asking my guests the same question. And there's no right or wrong answer to this question.

Speaker 2 And it is, what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human?

Speaker 1 For me, I think there are a couple pieces.

Speaker 1 One being having the ability to always

Speaker 1 be improving.

Speaker 1 right whether that's a small change or a big change and and the other is agency being able to do it in the way that you want to do it. And,

Speaker 1 you know, when you combine those two things, whether it's being better

Speaker 1 to try and live healthy for longer, whether it's to try and be smarter or do better at work, like those two principles, I feel generally cover

Speaker 1 all aspects of life.

Speaker 2 That's awesome. We must be pretty fascinated with the journey that you're on.

Speaker 2 That was amazing.

Speaker 2 Dr. Mogan, thank you for coming on the Ultimate Human podcast today.
And let's go check out my VIPs.

Speaker 1 Well, thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 2 And as always, guys, that's just science.