151. Dr. Brian Mogen: CTO of Hapbee Discusses the Science of Biohacking Sleep

Chemotherapy is really awful for people to experience, especially for brain cancer, because you need to take such high doses that it can get through the blood-brain barrier. Well, here's a technology that can pass through the blood-brain barrier.
It seems to me too, the applications are so vast, especially for addiction, for example. Have you looked at any implications for addictions like smoking, vaping? We're starting to look into veterans health being integrated as part of their

treatment plan of not being able to sleep or struggling with alcohol or other

addictive problems.

In terms of the sleep realm, there's people that struggle with sleep.

Talk about some of the compounds that you have for sleep and what you're seeing in

the community that's using these so far.

There's kind of two areas that we've really seen improvement in, and surprisingly one. Hey guys, welcome back to the Ultimate Human Podcast.
I'm your host, human biologist Gary Brekka, where we go down the road of everything, anti-aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between. And today's guest is a fascinating guest.
You know, when I was using his technology, my wife and I have been using it for quite some time. My staff has been using it for quite some time.
You might've seen it on my Instagram. I really wanted to go down the rabbit hole of the science.
And so I contacted the company and they said, we'll bring the scientists in, we'll fly them in, put them on your podcast so you can ask them whatever questions you want about the origin of this technology, which I think you're going to find fascinating. But first of all, welcome to the podcast, Dr.
Brian Mogan. Thanks so much for having me.
I forgot to even introduce you. But you know, you're a distinguished biomedical engineer with a strong foundation in neural engineering and biomedical sciences.
What I found fascinating when I was digging into your background was that you earned your Ph.D. in brain-computer interfaces from University of Washington.
Yep. This is the first time I've ever—I didn't even know that was a thing.
No offense. That's fair.
There aren't that many of us. There's not that many of you.
And you focused on translational neuroscience, microfluidics, and electronics hardware contributing to advancements in neural implants and brain computer interface technologies. And the first thing that came to mind was this like brain implant that Elon Musk is working on.
Yeah yeah which I but some people have actually already done this there yeah there are human beings with those implants right now and I spent a long time almost eight years studying all the different ways that you could record brain activity decode it signal process it and turn it into action for electrical stimulation for either changing the way the brain was wired to itself or controlling how your hands and arms move through stimulating your spinal cord. So, I mean, before we talk about the stuff that really freaks me out, I mean, let's talk a little bit about the implications for something like that in spinal cord injuries, which is where a lot of your research was focused, right? Yeah, it was on applied or novel applications for new implants in the spinal cord.
And I think the big takeaway that a lot of people miss there is the vast, vast majority of spinal cord implants aren't a full transection. There aren't that many people that get a full cut through their spinal cord there's a lot of residual function so we were looking at approaches for how can you harness and retrain and and use neuroplasticity approaches that work in the brain and in neurons in a dish how can you take that into spinal cord stimulation to strengthen so you know in the spinal cord i think it like thousands, literally millions of tiny, tiny, tiny little hairs kind of all bound together and they're sending information, you know, back and forth to the brain, some of its motor, some of its coordination, some of its sensory.
But you're saying that there's some of these pathways, let's say, that could get damaged deal with motor activity. And you could use a sensory pathway to maybe send motor information.
Or even the motor pathway doesn't get damaged 100%. It gets damaged 25%.
And that's enough to affect the way you can walk or the way you can use your hands. And you can take the remaining 70% and people are doing spinal cord stem cell implants to train and regenerate and improve that.
But our thinking was, can you also use electrical stimulation to just retrain what is still functional and take that and enhance the functionality? Is this kind of the, and just by way of background, you know, my personal story with his technology is really fascinating. So I'll just throw it out there.
I was in Dubai several months ago on an unrelated trip. And the, one of the sheikhs of Bahrain, Sheikh Nasser, contacted me and said, hey, there's a group over there that happens to be in Dubai right now

that I want you to meet with.

And there's this really interesting technology that I've been looking at.

I'd love for them to come to your hotel while you're in Dubai.

And if the Sheikh of Bahrain calls you and asks you to take a meeting,

you kind of take the meeting. He's an amazing guy, by the way.
And Sheikh Nasser, if you're asks you to take a meeting, you know, you kind of take the meeting.

He's an amazing guy,

by the way.

And,

and,

uh,

Sheikh Nasser,

if you're listening,

shout out to you,

brother.

Um,

he's a two time world champion in this incredibly,

uh,

difficult distance horse race.

His family's amazing family.

He's crazy about human performance.

Um,

he actually puts more,

uh,

technology into his horses. I think that he does into humans.
I he does into humans. I like joke with him and I'm like, man, when I die, I want to come back as one of your horses, man.
Olympic swimming pools and altitude sleeping rooms and red light mats, they drape them over and all organic diets. It's amazing how they're pushing the limits of horse racing over there.
So I take meeting and i'm with a you know partner of mine from the middle east and i happen to have my cfo with me and this gentleman shows up and he's got this necklace that you've got around your neck right here and he proceeds to tell me this story about um and i'm gonna bastardize it so the reason why you're here is to clear this up. That sounds good.
But essentially that this company has technology that has isolated these different frequencies that mimic certain compounds in the human body and the long and short of it is they could mimic caffeine. They could mimic the effects of pain medication.
They could mimic the effects of adenosine in the brain or melatonin in the brain without putting these compounds into the body, but allowing the body to receive this signal as if it were under the influence of one of these compounds. Now, I could, again, overgeneralize.
I could see your PhD brain is like, that's not

exactly correct, but I'm telling the story. It's my podcast.
So I'm just kidding. So we sit down and he puts these, I put one on, my partner puts one on and my CFO puts one on.
And he goes, listen, I'm just going to dial up this sleep setting, this deep, deep sleep setting. And he starts running this deep sleep setting.
I kid you not, within 60, maybe 90 seconds, my CFO is sitting in the lobby of the Ritz-Carlton in this meeting with us, falling asleep. And so he goes, you want me to wake you up? I'll run the caffeine setting.
So a few minutes later, he turns on this caffeine setting and it shuts off the impulses for the influence of things like melatonin and I think it was THC. And it starts the impulse for the influence of caffeine.
And he literally woke right up. And then the rubber really hit the road because he set it on a THC setting.
My CFO, if you're listening, Isaac, I love you, brother, but you're going under the bus on this one. And he's sitting there in this meeting.
We're in Dubai, very formal meeting. We've met for the first time.
He's got this thing around his neck and he starts running this THC setting. And a few minutes later, he starts having a fit of giggles and his eyes look watery and he takes a fist and he kind of bumps my partner in the, in the leg and goes, you got to try this, bro, which is not how my CFO speaks.
And then he started apologizing. He started laughing and they shut it back off, turn on the caffeine setting.
And he was bright, you know, like wide awake again. Had I not seen that, or somebody had told me that the technology could do that before this meeting, I probably wouldn't have taken the meeting.
Just given the limited information that I have and the fact that like my BS meter would have been up so high, but I witnessed it firsthand. And then of course my, all of were like, how do we get one of those? How do we get one of those? And we all threw them around our neck.
We started playing with them for the next day, but I flew home two days later from Dubai and there's a deep sleep setting on there. And you can actually set the number of hours and for deep sleep.
And I set it for eight hours. Now it could be completely coincidence

and completely placebo, but I put my seat flat.

Yeah, I went to the bathroom, brushed my teeth,

did all my stuff, put my eye mask on.

I laid down the seat, I turned it on

and I woke up eight hours and two minutes later.

And even for me, that as my sleep pattern is pretty dialed in,

to get eight straight hours of sleep on a plane is completely unheard of. don't know if i've ever actually slept eight consistent hours without waking so something's going on so i would really love to talk about you know how your background led to the genesis of this technology because we were talking before the podcast about how you always start out to do one thing with a technology and then you start finding out all of these other really interesting verticals and horizontal places where it has application.
So, yeah, I think that's a great transition because a lot of my, you know, before this job research at a startup also is, I was thinking a lot in terms of inputs and outputs. You can read the brain activity decoded and then stimulate the sensory output or the motor output uh and i think we can carry that concept through to what happy is doing now um and and that's what this device is called it's called a hap b h-a-p-b-e-e-e-e technologies yeah so we've we've been around a few years but the technology itself uh actually has come through several stages of development and tens eight almost 80 million dollars in in funding over 15 years of development in a few different stages wow um and this start in spinal cord injury yeah totally totally unrelated yeah uh the technology itself and and i'm one of the co-founders of uh the happy uh building consumer facing neckband where i'm not one of the original inventors 15 years ago i wasn't that old okay yeah you look pretty young yeah i was i'm not gonna do the math on how old i was 15 years ago.
But, yeah, there was a group in the U.S. Navy, a station in California, that was using this new technology called squid magnetometry, superconducting quantum interferometry devices, basically a way of measuring the smallest magnetic fields

that we can measure.

Inside of?

Just in general.

You take a set of electronics.

You have to get liquid helium and cool the sensors down to absolute zero

so you can record the tiniest little movement.

It's a quantum sensing device,

and they had built these arrays that they were using to try and sense uh military targets moving around in the pacific ocean like really shielded nuclear subs battleships thousands and thousands of miles away because i've heard i've heard somebody say that you know even though all these submarines and even even you know warships have all of this technology to themselves. They know where they all are.
They probably know where all of our enemy subs are off of our coast, even if the enemy thinks that they're shielded from us. Is this the kind of technology? Yeah, it was technology in that realm of trying to detect the tiny magnetic fields you give off.
A magnetic field is created every time an electron moves. So as even, you know, these, these fields are very tiny.
They're always present there's not a lot of shielding you can can do from that and the core technology itself was being applied in a military application and kind of this splinter group of research scientists in that group said well we're looking for really big things really far away what if we rebuilt the machine slightly and instead looked for really tiny things really close up like we know that the electron cloud of of drugs is fairly consistent right if you think of a drug molecule moving your high school biology ball and stick model is is pretty rigid but in actuality it's a jiggling twisting flexing cloud of electrons moving i remember those um you know we all played with this the stick and ball model and in chemistry and and i guess that's just a way of getting us to understand you know molecular structure at its rudimentary level but i agree with you these These things are very fluid and they're, you know, electrons are spinning and protons are spinning and you've got an atom and a nucleus. And so there's a lot of activity going on.
And, you know, it's not a static model. You know, we would take the little sticks out and plug it into another molecule and build molecules.
but what you're saying is this this electromagnetic field or this this um field that these electrons are creating that's detectable exactly yeah they're they're in the history of technology or in the history of happy there have been kind of two big scientific uh i would say like inflection points. So the first breakthrough being, okay, we've rebuilt this recording machine in the lab.
It's really fancy. It can detect some of the smallest magnetic fields ever recorded.
What happens if we put a drug or a compound or a molecule in a biological saline, put it in a life-like situation and apply a voltage and line them all up. So basically you can line up all the molecules in solution at a certain concentration and then record some of that fuzzy, weird movement.
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Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human Podcast.

So just to hyper simplify it, you have a solution and let's say you dissolve melatonin or you dissolve caffeine or you dissolve CBD or any other compound. You're looking at the variance between what the solution resonated at initially and what the field is like after you add this compound.
And you're saying that's the frequency of melatonin. That's the frequency of caffeine.
And I think an important distinction is we're not looking at like a specific frequency. It's not melatonin is 5 hertz and CBD is 10 hertz or 200.
Each of them is a very complex waveform. Think the you're not listening to a single tone in these recordings.
it's an entire symphony that's capturing parts of all of that movement and exactly what parts of the molecule the recordings are probably we don't actually know yet um but you're getting unique very complex recordings that are unique to each that's what i was going to ask you they're they. So repeatably, over and over and over and over and over again, these complex recordings are identical.
This fuzzy noise is identical when you have this certain compound. Yes, every time you record melatonin, it's the same fuzzy noise, but it's different from the CBD fuzzy noise.
Wow. It's not quite as clean as the nice sine waves you see in like neural and training products or the model you have.
It'd be nice if it was that way, but it's not. So step one was really just being able to record and see in the signal processing world that you're getting different recordings in this machine from different compounds yeah that's that that was a a nice little scientific jump yeah i mean that's massive and then the next piece was well what happens if you can build a correctly shaped antenna that can replay that recording and again you know think inputs and outputs we record the compound, but what happens when we project it? Try to transmit it.
Yes, and for a large class of molecules, non-covalent interactions, if you think back to high school biology, that ball and stick model, the receptor and ligand, the lock and key, when they go in together and interact and something happens when these non-covalent interactions the the lock and the key never actually touch they just trade electrons in the right pattern and if we've now got this recording of a of a compound that we know from traditional cellular biology methods is a non-covalent interaction usually. What happens if we replay that field over biology? Does it respond as if the drug were there? Wow.
So that was the second piece was, okay, now that we're projecting these with a correctly shaped, sized, right amplitude covering the right biology field, can you start seeing biological outcomes and effects? You say field. It's not like a speaker, which is sort of this unidirectional sound wave, right? It oscillates, creates a sound wave.
We perceive that as a tone. This is actually a moving, really kind of a messy field.
It's sort of, you know, the atomic energy in there, for lack of better words, which is unique to certain compounds. You're actually recording that really fuzzy, staticky kind of – I mean, I remember being at dinner with one of your co-founders, and he was telling me how someone that had some either ham radio experience or radio experience happened to be in the lab and was listening to some of these recordings.
and some of the team thought that the recordings were not being picked up.

And what he said was, no, that static that you're hearing, that is what we're looking for. That's the field that we're trying to measure.
Yeah, and these recordings are being done very close to the noise floor on the signal processing side of what we're doing. There's all sorts of techniques to try and clean up these kind of very messy recordings

to make them better and better.

So in a lab, you're taking the solution or something and you are introducing a compound

and then you are recording the electromagnetic smog, if you will, that that compound is releasing.

And that electromagnetic smog, and I'm making up my own words for the record because I don't have a PhD in biomedical engineering, but this electromagnetic smog, which is unique to that compound, you can not only record it, but then you can replay it. Exactly.
Exactly as it occurs. Because if you played it any different, It wouldn't be that same.
It wouldn't be unique to that. any different it wouldn't be that same it wouldn't be unique to that field compound that's got to be because first of all the devices that would pick that up is one thing but the devices that would retransmit at that at those levels to me seems like you had to invent that side of the equation too yeah and actually the the building the hardware and the product i'm wearing right now we have two products we've built around uh this for actually being able to transmit these products the the physics of the transmission are much easier than the physics of the recording oh wow yeah there's a basically all all of our products are engineered to have an antenna that creates the right shape and the right amplitude.
So your speaker analogy earlier was kind of close on the volume is an important factor. It's got to be within a fairly narrow range, but also the shape of the field where the volume is correct is also important.
So just kind of building out the electronics around creating the right size fields in the right places so that they cover the relevant parts of your body while you're using them. What's wild to me is that a recording of a compound's field replayed into the body has the same effect as the presence of that molecule.
Is that... I think the key point there, that is a wild thing to say a little bit.
But also remember, we know in these non-covalent interactions, the lock and the key don't actually touch. Yeah.
Right. They just trade electrons in the right pattern.
To trade some information and that that is what unlocks the receptor, changes the confirmation and the vast majority of the interactions in our body, unless we're looking at metabolizing something and physically breaking a bond to make energy, are non-covalent. Most of our signal pathways are non-covalent interactions.
So you can influence the same level of interaction, whether you have the presence of the real compound or you have the presence of the recording of that compound. That's what we continue to see.
Wow. So let's take this one step further.
I don't know if you guys are following this, but I am fascinated by this because the idea that you could take a compound like melatonin or even caffeine and record its molecular energy, for lack of better words, and then replay that molecular energy into the body and have cellular structures and gateways that are in the cell wall and the cell membrane and even probably more importantly, the mitochondria, which has its own cell membrane, to play these recordings at this atomic level or at this molecular level and have those locking key mechanisms respond as if the presence of that compound is there is fascinating to me because the implications to me, just like your head wants to just explode because you know the implications to me just like your head wants to just and explode because you know the the issues for example with narcotic painkillers for example aren't the effect that it's exerting at the time it's the all of the codependencies and the addictive cycles and you know the waste elimination pathways to get a lot of these compounds out of the body. Because as you know, cellular metabolism is a really dirty process.
And when you introduce things into a human body that, you know, cells are influenced by, at some point that influence not only diminishes, but it turns into other products that the body now has to get rid of, right? I mean, you pour gasoline into your engine, you run your car, now it's exhaust, it's vapor, it's going to the atmosphere. It's just these energies are changing their state.
Yeah. And I think there are a couple of points you made that are worth touching on.
And in the evolution of the technology we've seen this also right like the field is wide open in terms of going through all of the possible ways of showing replicating every single drug like we're just starting out on that journey we haven't been around that long uh you know there are multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical companies that are working on every mechanism of every drug known to man. And we've had to take a very limited subset so that we can kind of get to market and bring people this, bring the technology.
So when did you realize that, because this began as the Department of Defense Technology or Military Technology, I could see why they would want to know where all the submarines are under the ocean. I mean, that's got to be infinitely complex to listen through because the amount of noise between wherever your device is reading it and the object that you're trying to detect, I mean, there's all kinds of fish and water and molecules and light and pressure and all kinds of things going on to be able to find these sounds and record them or at least identify it as that's a submarine, that's a ship, and that's XYZ.
what point did you think that you had a commercial product

that could benefit humanity, like the one that you're wearing right now? And what compounds did you start with? Because I'm just thinking of like you guys sitting around the lab one day and you're like, hey, Stan, we isolated melatonin. You guys start putting these things on and everybody's falling asleep or you get stimulated from caffeine how did how did it go from being this technology this recording and transmission device into an actual wearable technology yeah so uh first i wasn't around for for all of that i got brought in uh basically at the start of the let's let's turn it into consumer products so uh the origin of the technology really went from we can record these things in uh in the lab uh okay we are starting to see biological effects what would be a really good candidate for uh proving the technology out first and foremost

and the the road that that group of scientists went down was uh chemotherapy is really awful

for people to experience especially for brain cancer because you need to take such high doses

that it can get through the blood brain barrier well here's a technology that in theory we can

pass right through the blood brain barrier without you having to take high doses and it's

Thank you. Well, here's a technology that in theory we can pass right through the blood-brain barrier without you having to take high doses.
And it's controllable and it's localized and the cellular mechanisms for how those drugs work are fairly well understood. Can we step through recreating the effects of a brain cancer drug and go to market that way? way um and in the consumer space so there's a big body of uh academic research on on that those set of specific pathways right and then the story as it was told to me was one night uh while they had the machine that's a very expensive process to cool the machine down and keep it cool.
It's not always going. So you do recordings in batches.
But somebody had brought in some alcohol. So somebody went rogue and decided, well, what if the machine's already on? What if we just record it it yeah um so they recorded the alcohol so they recorded recorded and then you know a couple weeks later after uh the processing somebody decided well we don't really know what's going to happen but can we just give it a try yeah play the freak go rogue again and yeah give it a try yeah and uh it didn't take very long uh for for those guys to realize that oh no i i feel a couple of drinks in yeah it's five minutes in and uh this is a definitely an alternative to to what people are doing right now and right that was that was about the time i had been finishing my phd i was doing another startup earlier on um in the physical therapy rehab space and i got a call one day saying hey uh i think we're gonna try and spin this out into a consumer product you know electronics you know a little bit of software you know you know recording stimulation closed loop technology you wanna you wanna come do this were you like fascinated by it yeah i i've been following the technology for a little while because it was on you know when you look at pmf when you look at uh transcranial magnetic stimulation when you look at neural acs there's there's electrical stimuli there's all these modalities and here's one that well it is also magnetic is very unique most of use, right? When you, when you think of a device for a specific purpose, it's a vagal nerve stimulator for X.
There's a protocol for X if it's on your, if it's on your neck, it's for X. If it's in your ear, it's for Y.
If it's mediated through your median nerve on your wrist, it's for Z. But this is a technology platform that can be multifunctional.
The same piece of hardware can be used for multiple different use cases. Wow.
So now someone's in the lab, they have some alcohol, they record the, well, I keep saying electric smog for lack of better words. They record this cloud, this field, that is the way that the molecule of alcohol is resonating.
And then they take that recording and then they return that back into the body. And the person is under the influence of alcohol or feels like they're under the influence of alcohol.
And when they turn it off, they're no longer under the influence. Cause I've actually heard of you guys having parties with these things where you put them over everybody's head and everybody gets a little dose of alcohol and everybody's kind of social and buzzing around and then when it's time to go you shut it off and give everyone a little caffeine and out the door they go and you're bone sober and your blood alcohol level zero um or near zero and um you're not under the influence of anything yeah we did a pop-up activation actually earlier this year uh we ran the world's first completely non-alcoholic bar in Dublin, Ireland.
Literally people came in and you put this necklace over their head. I can see the Irish going, fuck that, mate.
And our hypothesis was if we can convince them that they're enjoying the sensations, a group of people with a very specific view on how you're supposed to imbibe if we could get imbibe you're not very popular over there they take their beer very seriously in ireland if we could convince them yeah that the experience of of using happy alongside uh you know traditional n8 beverages was was enjoyable Well, you know, traditional NA beverages was enjoyable.

You know, we felt very confident.

We can convince anybody.

So how did that go?

Did you actually have it at a pub?

Oh, yeah.

We took over on the south side of Dublin an NA bar for about 60 days.

Yeah.

And I'm fascinated by the recruiting process where you're like, hey, who wants to come in and not get drunk but get drunk without drinking and wear this necklace like yeah it was it was already a pub that had a strong early irish dudes bearded going yeah mate i want to participate there were there were certainly people that walked in the door that were very confused yeah but that's wild so you put all these you put these happy devices over everybody's neck you run the frequency of alcohol um and they felt under the influence did you monitor there did you give them questionnaires did questionnaires before and before and after and then just you know general did you what what did you feel describe it did you feel something how confident were you and also did you enjoy the experience also right technology without an application isn't a really great technology right so and then and when it was all said and done you shut it off maybe ran the caffeine um five to to wake them back up but the but there there was no um they may have been under the influence of alcohol but there's no alcohol in their bloodstream so the liver's not processing this the liver's not turning it into acetyl aldehyde their blood's not getting acidic they're not damaging their brain they're not going to the vasoconstrictive process, all of the downsides that we have with alcohol, because I think alcohol, like so many other things, we're willing to make this exchange, you know, we're going to take some of the bad to get the good. Oh, it makes, you know, it removes my social inhibitions.
I get it's going to interrupt my sleep. I'm going to wake up with a headache tomorrow, but I'm going to have a really night.
And you could probably say this for all kinds of things. I'd rather not take Tylenol or ibuprofen because I know it's hard on my liver or hard on my gut microbiome, but the detriment of the pain is worth the downside that some of these compounds have.
I'm still fascinated by this. It is absolutely fascinating to me that you can isolate this electromagnetic smog, for lack of better words.
You can impart this frequency into the body and then the body reacts as though it's under that influence and as soon as you remove it, that influence stops. Like many of you, the hardest thing for me is to shut off my mind at night when I want to sleep.
And it's funny because sometimes I'll wake up tired already thinking of when I'll get back to bed again. But exactly the moment that I lay my head on the pillow, it feels like the machine of crazy what have thoughts is turned back on.
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Yeah. And, and as a

natural activation process, there, there is still a roll off, right? Most of these pathways are

pathways. And when you kick them off, other things happen.
So yeah, not, not zero seconds instant,

but in terms of something like caffeine affecting your sleep because you had coffee at three o'clock and it's still in your body at 11 p.m right we're we're talking about effect roll off and and users uh seeing the ability to to not recognize sensation anymore and on the order of minutes single digit minutes wow um versus hours and hours i mean so for people that that that can't sleep i mean my wife and i are have both been using it i haven't been popularizing it just because number one i didn't think that people would even believe it um and then secondly i wanted to use it for a long enough duration of time um that i knew it't just placebo, that it was actually having a material effect. One of the things that your team brought over to my house a few weeks ago was a sort of soft mattress form, kind of like this thing.
This is actually it. It was larger than this one.
And we were in the middle of the meeting during dinner and they walked me back to my bedroom. And I took my house manager with me and we laid down on this pad and they ran, I think it was adenosine, THC, and melatonin.
There was a combination of three things. And within just a few minutes, I could feel it like sinking me, pulling me into the mattress.
And I really wanted them to leave and let me go to sleep, but they didn't. No offense, guys.
But, and, and then they, you know, I put the necklace on, ran the caffeine setting, and I was legitimately back awake.

So the implications, the potential implications of this are astounding. And you touched on sleep as kind of the core piece in our user base right now.
We've broadly taken these recordings. We have seven different compounds there.
the the thought early in the company's idea was like most drugs the vast majority of drugs if you take a statin you don't feel it right how do we how do we prove to the people who use the product uh and how do we build the form factors in a way that matches their daily lives you we have the the wearable for during the day. And then what we actually ended up seeing on the customer journey was that we're going through, okay, what are people actually playing? What are they doing? And to this day, over 70% of the content played on our platform is related to sleep.
Yes. Because, I mean, sleep is our human superpower.
And most people really struggle with sleep without getting tranquilized to go to sleep, right? I mean, we're not talking about zolipenum, nitrate, diazepam, lunesta, all those things, Xanax, that actually just tranquilize you to go to sleep, which I would argue is actually not really sleeping if you look at sleep quality when you're under the influence of a lot of this. Most professionals agree with that.
Okay. You know, you don't see an improvement of sleep quality.

You see a duration of not being conscious or aware,

if that's what you want to call it.

And, you know, they're interpreting that as sleep,

which I guess is better than not getting any at all.

But, you know, the idea that you could actually mimic some of these natural compounds.

So in terms of the sleep realm,

because there's a lot of people that struggle with sleep and don't want to take sleep medication and also don't like the influence that it has on them sometimes the next morning, groggy, exhausted, poor focus, taking hours to sort of get out of the mud and get your day going. Don't drive heavy machinery.
Don't drive heavy machinery. So talk about some of the compounds that you have for sleep and what you're seeing in the community that's using these so far, because I think a lot of my audience would be very interested in, you know, if I could take this thing on a plane and lay down on top of it or even put it in my bed and sleep on it, and this this can hold me in deep sleep um you know i'm in but what what are you using to to do that yeah so we're i would say three things have been kind of the the go-to stack uh for people improving their sleep and and the vast majority of our users track their sleep with an aura ring or a who Whoop or through Apple Help or Google Fit.
So we're seeing pretty impressive increases in sleep quality across the board. So sleep quality is not just duration that they're in bed.
You're saying REM sleep, deep sleep. Sleep latency.
Sleep latency. Okay.
yeah there's I would say there's kind of

two Deep sleep. Sleep latency.
Sleep latency. Okay.
Yeah, I would say there's kind of two areas that we've really seen improvement. And surprisingly, one, and this is the evolution of the company as well, was people using CBD or alcohols and anxiolytic before going to bed.
My problem going to sleep isn't while I'm sleeping. It's anti-anxiety before I go to bed because I lay there for hours at a time and I can prep myself for getting ready to go to bed.
My sleep routine starts well before I lay down on a mattress. Right.
So we had users that were sending in customer service tickets saying, well, it has been great, but it's really uncomfortable to fall asleep with a rubberized, all-day wearable neckband.

Right, right.

Well, some of your new iterations, I've seen some of the future, they almost look like pendants that you wear.

They're actually very attractive or straight pendants, almost like jewelry that would go under your shirt you wouldn't even notice. And maybe somebody that you're talking to wouldn't even notice you were wearing it.
And do you wear this thing all the time? Because when we sat down, you said you were running nicotine. I guess that's for your alertness.
And I think the other thing we've seen with all these users is it's very personalized. And that's been the whole view on the platform is give users the choice to do the things that they want to help.
They want help with whether it's sleep or not. Like my number one use, I will use it to help fall asleep on flights and stay asleep on flights while traveling.
And then the other one is mid-afternoon. I live in Seattle and will admit that I have a coffee problem.
Yeah. But in the afternoons, I also get hit on the afternoon slump very bad.
So being able to have an alternative to turn to at 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon that isn't going to affect my structure of sleep but keep me focused and awake and alert um so so if i was able to actually see or view this electromagnetic field right like turn the lights off and with the black light to detect electromagnetic field kind of thing um what would it look like is is happening around your neck right now this it would be a cloud it's not just a frequency yeah you actually want to hand me that one next to you there this one yeah okay so the device itself is is fairly simple there's some electronics that lighten a button but like when it's on and creating projection it's it's about seven inches above and below you can kind of think of it like a volume inside of there so yeah it's a coil inside here making a uniform magnetic field that all sees the same uh field amplitude and direction so we can basically project above and around where that's going down into my chest and up into my brain yeah brain spinal cord and our library of compounds now are things that are neuroactive right and like that that was part of the the piece right there our sleep pad uh coil is larger so that it can make its way through your pillow and give you that same level of coverage for melatonin uh over the course of the night or adenosine uh as you lay down to help build sleep pressure. So it looks like a giant field.
Like I remember, you know, when I was growing up, the coolest thing were those static lights. It had like a glass bulb in it, had a bulb in the middle.
Remember it had the glass ball around it. I'm dating myself with this.
And you'd put your hand on it and all the electricity would go to your hand. It was like the coolest thing, you know, in 1988.
And so this is like a field, maybe, you know, without all the electricity and stuff. But this is a field and you put this field, you put your, you immersed your brain and your spinal cord and your chest and your body into this field.
and wherever that field is transmitting,

your cellular structures within that field are responding as if they're exposed to that. Yeah, and that's one of the things that's...
It's still so fascinating to me. ...important about magnetic fields versus electric fields.
Yeah. Right? They're two sides of the same coin, but the electric fields get attenuated by a whole bunch of stuff your your skin your skull the salt water sack that your brain sits in by the time something on the outside of your head actually puts simulation into your brain it's been spread out and and muddled pretty severely right whereas magnetic fields will pass through the blood-brain barrier,

will pass through bone, will pass through fluid, no problem,

unless you have a giant steel plate in your head. And these magnetic fields are the transmission field

that you're using to reach the target tissue.

So what are some of the compounds that you're using for sleep

that you've now recorded and that you can transmit?

Yeah, so there's... tissue.
So what are some of the compounds that you're using for sleep that you've now recorded and that you can transmit? Yeah. So on the sleep side, we're looking at adenosine and melatonin, the hormone for regulating circadian rhythm and sleep-wake cycle, and adenosine, which is the complement of caffeine.
In fact, adenosine is the natural version of caffeine.

Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors to keep you awake.

Adenosine builds over the course of the day to make you feel sleepy in the evenings.

And then caffeine blocks adenosine.

One of the reasons why I tell people

to actually delay their coffee intake 60 to 90 minutes

is to allow that buildup to occur

so that you actually have a greater effect from caffeine

than doing it sort of, you know, just opening your eyes and whacking back a coffee, you know, giving those adenosine receptors time to saturate because when caffeine competes with more receptors, it has a more positive effect. But this could have the same effect as caffeine or does have the same effect as caffeine without the presence or the downside.

So where do you see this technology going? Because, you know, your head explodes when you start thinking of all of the different compounds that it would be incredible to introduce to your cellular biology without the negative side effects of the processing of those compounds. Yeah, and our view on it has been, what can we get people right now?

And... of the processing of those compounds.
Yeah, and our view on it has been what can we get people right now and where then does the future go? And as I said earlier, the initial focus was seven compounds that when you wear the device, you can feel. Let's start with things that are discern um and let's start with a product line of things where people can actually use the product today uh and and kind of go from there so that's why we've got a wearable we've got a slide in your pillow or under your pillow sleep pad and like the piece from there next is is what are the the tools now that you can control this yeah digitally by delivery but also digitally by all of the factors that you have available to you as part of building a healthy digital habit on your phone right you can you can choose when uh to use compounds you can build schedules you can like how do we tie this into everyday life and behavior and we've started with just giving people free reign control of push play and go and for me the future is really coming back to what are the pieces of closing this loop right there are a lot of especially in the in the biohacking space there a lot of measurement there's a lot of inputs yeah we've got you know the difference of wrist mounted wearables and finger mounted wearables and chest straps and uh respiration like there are a lot of things we can measure there are a lot fewer things that are outputs and and closing the loop and right and happy is you know I see happy very much as playing nice with all of these different output and input technologies.
How do we take your sleep data and not only tell you what's wrong? There's a lot of interpretation of wearable data now, but there's not a lot of actionable output. Right.
And when you say there's not a lot of actionable output right and and when you say there's not a lot of actionable output they that the wearable is saying here's your sleep score here's your recovery here's your strain in the case of of whoop and i wear whoop um or your heart rate variability was a little low tonight your your respiratory volume rate was a little bit low.

So you can't take that data now

and create something in real time that would address that.

Are you saying that HAP-B will eventually be able to take input data,

highly individualized, right?

Like from my whoop that says that I've been in bed for X period period of time my heart rate variability is low my respiratory rate is low um i haven't been able to get into rem or deep sleep and it could take that data and potentially redirect it and say okay we're going to increase the amount of melatonin or here's a change in timing it's coming coming soon. Okay.
And you said you have seven compounds now?

Yep.

That it can effectively mimic and put you, for lack of better words,

under the influence of that compound without that compound being in your body.

And what are some of those?

Sleep, obviously.

So on the sleep side, melatonin and adenosine, CBD, THC, alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, and theobromine, the caffeine analog that's in chocolate. Okay.
So what's super exciting about that is that, you know, people, there's a process called tachyphylaxis in the human body, right? A desensitization response. It's like, you know, you sit down next to a woman who's wearing amazing perfume and 30 minutes later, you can't smell the perfume, right? I mean, that desensitization, that tachyphylactic response has dulled your senses to picking up that scent any longer.
it's not that she took the perfume off. It's that you don't smell it because you've desensitized.
Is there, is there a similar tachyphylactic effect where we would either build the tolerance or build the dependency or, or, or some kind of desensitization? Yeah. Just because of the we think the the product works we would expect there to be uh a little bit of desensitization over long-term use and getting used to it kind of thing okay but no detriment and as soon as you take it up like this is a the perfume you can take off right yeah that that you kind of can so in your mind what are the great applications for this technology going forward how are you guys going to make your impact on the world i think we're going to continue to see it jumping through sleep on the on the consumer side oh my audience is like really really yeah uh sleep is sleep is the one where it's easy for somebody to use the product for 30 days line up your usage against your sleep latency score or your overall sleep score uh and and prove to yourself that it's working and it's working for me um broadly speaking we're we're also seeing a bunch of applications our our content is loosely bucketed around sleep mood and performance sleep mood and performance yeah so talk a little bit about what you're doing in each of those categories you have three um essentially settings for sleep and these are three recordings of uh compounds that you're then going to play into the body transmit into the body um and what specifically are those compounds so in in sleep it's melatonin and adenosine mel Melatonin and adenosine, because there's a THC on there too.
And I think that's what they added to mine the other night. And that's what like literally made me feel like I'm sinking down in the mattress.
And I don't do any drugs. I don't touch weed and anything like that.
It's not that I'm opposed to it or even CBDs. And some people swear by CBDs for sleep and for pain, but it was a noticeable difference and within just a few minutes of putting it on.
And so now my body feels that I'm under the influence of those compounds. When I wake up, I can just simply shut it off.
Or you can set it so that it turns off while you're asleep. Oh, so it actually gets you into sleep? It gets you into sleep and you can build out the content structure so that you have full control over when and where things are broadcast.
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Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human podcast. And since your body believes that you're under the influence of whatever compound, is there a chance that you build a tolerance to THC or to CBD or to the pain medication? I always wonder what about somebody that doesn't drink? Like I don't drink any longer.
You know, I drank not so long ago, but I've just cut it out of my life because of the detriments to my physiology. So if I were to use that, I could experience the effects of alcohol and not have the downside and consequences.
And we have seen in the user base so far, right, like people like me and my own personal example. Yeah.
I drink way too much coffee in the morning, and the caffeine signal is not particularly notable to me because I have a higher caffeine tolerance than I. So we would expect and do continue to see personal tolerances and responses varying just like the source compounds would.
Yeah, I mean it seems to me too the applications are so vast especially for addiction, for example. Most people are not smoking or vaping because they like smoking or vaping.

It's because of the nicotine.

And you could,

although I'm down the road of all of the positive health benefits on nicotine

now, some, some of the nicotine is not even tobacco derived nicotine,

but just talking about the compound nicotine.

Have you looked at any implications for addictions like, like smoking? Yeah we're we're starting to look into into that area more where we've seen on on the mood side has actually been in um veterans health and we've done a bunch of work uh with a veterans reintegration group out of just up the streetida here uh on using happy as a on-demand tool when folks who are struggling uh with reintegration coming coming back in can turn to a modality to turn on or off a sensation and wow and how's that going what do they report when they're you know if you have if you have someone that's addicted to a certain compound and, you know, is getting that addressed, you know, you can actually introduce that compound without any of the negative side effects for them. Yeah, and provide for compounds not in our library, an alternative for people to turn to when times are are tough we received an award for being the most effective tool for suicide prevention from from this group that works with very at-risk veterans uh the gray team coming through on as just being integrated as part of their treatment plan of of folks who need a tool to turn to because they're not sleeping And it wasn't that it was one specific piece.
For each person, it was the individual. Their problems were coming from not being able to sleep or struggling with alcohol or other addictive problems and being a tool in the toolkit that you could turn to on demand and over a guided long period of time during reintegration.
Give them the power to really help those folks. So where do you see this going in terms of performance? You know, you were talking about the three big areas that you guys are trying to address.
I mean, first of all, sleep to me is where we should all start, right? I believe that sleep is our human superpower. If you're not sleeping, you're not healing, you're not regenerating, you're not...
You know, your cells are not eliminating waste, repairing, detoxifying. You know, we know that our brain's glymphatic system, which is like the lymph system in the brain, is active in waste elimination, you know, at night.
So the only time the brain really detoxifies is during this deep sleep cycle. And in the REM cycle, we're assembling our memories from the day with our subconscious and creating learned behaviors and learned memories.
So learned memories. It seems to me like if you have compounds that are available to enhance that,

they get all of the benefits of that deep sleep cycle without any of the detriments.

Yeah, and I firmly believe sleep will continue to be the starting point for most people.

What we're seeing uptake more on the performance side is actually coming in professional athletes what can you do for professional athletes say yeah and and this is something i wouldn't have guessed at the start of the company coming in but a lot of the professional athlete use of uh the product whether it's nba players whether it's uh premier league soccer teams whether it's nhl teams has been around uh pre-match uh warm-up and and education right these guys that are either uh very nervous before games and need to relax or folks who uh are too hyped up or are not hyped up enough and need a boost early on.

So on the sports performance side of kind of our professional athlete uptake,

it's been around pregame management and then also sleep and travel on,

you know, guys taking five flights a week to go play.

Trust me, I know how that is.

Like wild sleep schedules in the professional sports worlds um so between that and then uh the third piece uh we'll see is like during film review sit down focus put on nicotine make it through 30 minutes of film study make it through reading a playbook, make it through, uh, listening

to the coaching report, uh, before moving on. So again, it's, it's multifaceted, but kind of.
Do you, do you envision a day, maybe not in the not so distant future where even doctor's offices, and hospitals and care providers put this around somebody's neck and prescribe whatever medication is. And this app sort of runs on a timer.
And well, I guess it wouldn't do that because I was thinking, you know, dosing your pain medication or dosing your thyroid medication or dosing any other medication for that matter, where you could, instead of having them ingest that compound,

you just start transmitting that that there's there's certainly frequency oh yeah a world there we've we've done kind of pilots in in two places actually a dentist's office uh for folks who have significant anxiety in the in the waiting room and then also with this veterans group, folks that have so much physical pain, they can't come in to do a workup session without getting that treated and addressed early on and being able to do CBD delivery for them before they start the rest of their protocol has been the starting point of that in our journey.

And to date, have you guys conducted any of your own independent research?

Yeah, so on our side there's been kind of two pieces. One is core technology on the recordings of the drug, the advancement of the base research, and then the other side is the applied science of uh

you the recordings of the drug, the advancement of the base research.

And then the other side is the applied science of animal pain studies, animal.

How would it mitigate pain other than if you had a pain medication,

you would send that into the body and the body would respond as if it were under that influence. And in our case, that compound is CBD and the CB2 receptor pathway that's mostly in your spinal column.
And how hard is it to add? In order to add a new product or a new compound that it's mimicking, what's the process to do that? Because I noticed it's an app. So I assume that you could update that app remotely.
And as you guys come out with more technological innovations, you know, this necklace goes from being like asleep and slightly mentally alert and maybe a neurotropic into being all kinds of things. Yep.
That right yeah so there's the basically just go go through the recording process go through some uh animal validation work maybe some cellular validation work and then bring it onto the platform yeah i mean the uh again the possibilities are just endless so sleep the primary focus. Where do your users go from there?

What do you see after that, the caffeine settings? Yeah, I think predominantly what we see is people will start either with the sleep pad for sleep only, and then they'll realize that, oh, I can expand use with a wearable during the day. or we'll see people who come on to the neckband start using it for sleep

and expand to be two product users i mean what's what's is there any detriment to using it over and over and over again like um like when you sat down you're running the nicotine setting um it was interfering with the mic so we we turned it off but you're running the nicotine setting and now

you're running nothing right yep um do you already feel that nicotine has dropped in your yeah i felt it right away it was before we were on even on camera i think wow that's just so wild i mean um you know eventually the idea you can integrate those into mattresses or any number of other products that become true biohacking modalities.

You know, I'm always, I'm a huge fan of this term bio stacking, because to me, what bio stacking means is you take, you know, multiple devices, biohacking devices, and you just try to do them instead of in sequence, but do them together. Like, for example, I tell, I'm always preaching on social media about the importance of breathwork and sunlight and grounding.
Those three just simple things. But you could package all of that together at one time.
Like, for example, I will sit on the beach sometimes, let sunlight hit hit my skin while while i'm grounded and i'll do rounds of breath work so instead of having three separate 20 minute segments i have one 20 minute segment and we and we put it all together i kind of see the same thing happening here where somebody were wearing this device um you know uh the physician could say, here's your prescription. It's loaded into your app.
And when you wake up in the morning, you know, just let me know that you're awake and it will run your Synthroid because that has to be done 30 minutes before meals and it has to be done completely by itself. Then your next medication is going to start here.
You're going to run something for your blood pressure. So are you saying that there's almost no field from any compound that you can't record and then translate that's covalent? Yeah.
And what we've seen from everything from like small to short interfering RNA to big molecules still microscopic, right? But relatively large. These recordings are very unique compound by compound.
So in theory, yeah, we should be able to do a whole bunch of this stuff. And is there any bioity? Like, like, you know, because if you and I both took the same number of milligram strengths of melatonin and everybody listening to this podcast, there would be vastly different reactions to it.
Some people would say, Oh my God, it felt like I got switched, hit by a sledgehammer. Couldn't even get out of bed the next day.
I was so sluggish. Um, and then other people would say, yeah I didn't feel it at all is there that bio-individuality

to the next day i was so sluggish um and then other people would say yeah i didn't didn't feel it at

all is there that bio individuality to on on using the happiest platform absolutely there is

yeah so you have to play with it a little bit and we'll we'll see uh customer onboarding uh

this is where people say i'm very sensitive to caffeine right and people will turn it on and

Thank you. customer onboarding this is where people say I'm very sensitive to caffeine and people will turn it on and have an unpleasant experience 15-ish I forget the exact number but a significant percent of people are aversive to caffeine biologically aversive to caffeine yeah they can they can't process it there's a is it the cyp forget the exact gene mutation you're not gonna get it from me yeah there's there is a gene mutation that um breaks down caffeine either quickly or slowly um my wife was so happy because we actually had a genetic scientist over here months ago and we did this big genetic test.
And when he was going through the results, she was like, if I can't have more than one cup of coffee a day, I am out. Because we were looking at caffeine metabolism.
Luckily, she's a very fast metabolizer of it. So she can actually drink more coffee and have more later in the day um and and this report recommended that i only drink one because i'm a slow metabolizer of caffeine and i kind of find that on my own i really don't need caffeine i'm kind of quite a bit of energy most most days but because of that i've limited my cups of coffee to one but in in this case, I'm not metabolizing it, right? I'm under the influence of caffeine.
And there will be similar biological profiling on receptor availability. Like we would expect there to still be personalized responses.
So somebody could get this and, you know, their husband or their wife puts it on, is like out, like they got hit by a ton of bricks and then they have no effect so they have to sort of start playing with the compounds. Or reduce or something else.
Yeah, it's very much a personalized output. That is just so wild.
I mean, it really proves that these fields are exerting the effect that you're, that you're after. So, you know, I got to ask what, where does, where does this happy technology go from, from here? So you as a, as a scientist, you've got to be, first of all, fascinated to see because I'm sure in biomedical engineering, maybe there are times where you get to see a product have a mass market effect on humanity.
But I mean, this has got to be pretty rewarding for you to see that you can have, your laboratory science can have a real mass market effect on humanity. Yeah, I mean, I think at least we certainly, like the reason for bringing it out into the consumer space as opposed to just keeping it medical only was very much like how quickly can we affect everybody's lives this is this isn't something to be held back and and and if this engineer that developed it for the military i mean is is this is the technology owned by the military no it's a just developed and and iterated from they're like yeah we're looking for submarines you guys put all the people to sleep you want we're not worried about okay um yeah fascinating um well uh i i definitely want to have you uh back on the podcast because this whole innovation of wearables to me is this conversion that is happening right now between artificial intelligence big data and um and early detection but in this case if you were able to take massive amounts of data presumably from wearables, and create an actionable response.
I mean, that's, you know, so that as I'm going through the day, you know, my whoop is transmitting and it's telling me my strain and my, you know, all of my biometrics are in there. And there are things that you could potentially do to follow the data in real time on someone's wearable and say, wow, they're not getting into REM sleep.
Let's secrete melatonin. Let's secrete adenosine.
Let's bring in some THC and actually in real time, take that data and create such a personalized experience, but they're not under the influence of anything. I mean, and they don't have the detriments of those things.
And if they wanted to remove, you know, essentially the influence that that field was having on them, they could do so. It's like if you take a Tylenol PM and you want to get out of bed two hours later, forget it.
If you like pop an Ambien and're like, oh, shoot, I got to go to the airport and pick up my – there's none of that going on, right? I mean, because you are now subject to whatever the half-life is of that compound and exerting its effect, and you're just going to have to ride it out. I mean, if you had to eat Guinness, there's no way you're getting in the car in an hour.
You've got to wait for your blood alcohol to come down, but this would happen so much faster. Man, it's just super fascinating to me.
So for my audience that doesn't know you and know about this technology, where do they find you? Where do they find out about this technology? Yeah, I think the easiest place to keep track of us is just our website, happy.com. And then I'm on.
H-A-P-B-E. H-A-P-B-E.com.
Yeah, it's always a tough one to tell the people. Happy.com.
And you guys are talking about this is widely available for consumers now. Yep.
So somebody's struggling with sleep.

What would you say the biggest implication is for this technology right now?

If I'm a listener and I have this condition, this would be the most appropriate.

Yeah, I think what we've really seen is if you're having trouble falling asleep in those first early stages,

that's the most clear, grab a sleep pad, flip it it onto melatonin adenosine and knock yourself out like literally knock yourself out um well uh we're gonna go into my my vip room now because every every time i have a guest on i i bring them into my vip's uh room to allow them to ask directly. So if you're interested in becoming one of my ultimate human VIPs, go over to theultimatehuman.com and just sign up to be one of my VIP members.
So you can have private podcasts with our guests. I also do live coaching, group coaching sessions in there.
I write all kinds of specific content for the VIPs. So go over to theultimatehuman.com and sign up to be one of my VIP members.
But I end every podcast I wind down the same way by asking my guests the same question. And there's no right or wrong answer to this question.
And it is, what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human? For me, I are a couple pieces one being having the ability to always be improving right whether that's a small change or a big change and and the other is agency being able to do it in the way that you want to do it and you know when you combine those two things whether it's being better uh to try and live healthy for longer whether it's to try and be smarter or do better at work like those two principles i feel generally cover all aspects of of life that's awesome you must be pretty fascinated with the journey that you're on um that was amazing uh dr mogan thank you for coming on the ultimate human podcast today and

let's go check out my vips well thank you very much for having me as always guys that's just science