A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White

Hello, this is Josh Baerman, the co-host with Gia Talentino of the official White Lotus companion podcast for season three, and we are here with a bonus episode with Mike White.

Mike is, of course, the creator of the show, but it's also worth noting that he is the writer and director and executive producer, which is not really common in television.

So what's emerged is a TV show that's sort of like auteur film.

I've known Mike for a long time.

We've worked together, and I think it's not a secret.

He doesn't really like to talk about his work that much, but we're going to get a chance chance to do so and dive in.

And so next we have Mike White.

Mike, thank you so much for talking to us today.

Well, thank you for doing this.

Yeah, this is going to be fun.

We're deep in it.

And so we're obviously super excited to talk to you about it.

Dave Bernad told the story about you being on a nebulizer when you were in Thailand early on and this season materializing in your mind, almost fully formed from that nebulizer.

Yeah, it was a really weird thing.

And I'm like thinking now, I guess I'm like,

now that this is over and like fourth season, I'm like, should I get bronchitis again?

What was in it?

Can I have some?

Yeah, it is, it is a true story.

I was, we were scouting in Thailand and Thailand was kind of just the stalking horse because I really wanted to shoot in Japan because I'd had more fun in Japan the times I'd visited.

But I was having a really good time in Thailand and then I got sick and then they, yeah, they put me on this nebulizer and I did not sleep for two days.

And I had had some of these, there were some vague concepts that I was starting to, like, you know, I don't know, kept churning over, but then I had like 12 hours in a bed going crazy.

And by the time the weekend was over, I was like, oh my, yeah, like, I was like, oh,

oh, yeah, Belinda's son could be

like, by then, I was like, I think I have the season.

It was like, and so I was, I was, I mean, I'm sure things continued to, yeah.

And when I write, things, you know, changed stuff, but it was definitely, it definitely felt like I was like, I I can plant my flag and it was taking place in Thailand.

So I was like, I have a feeling we're going to end up in Thailand.

I might have mentioned a little bit when I was in Thailand, but I had a whole thesis before really knowing anything about season three, that season one was this kind of Buddhist allegory.

All the characters, they're all in some form of pain.

And so then now we're in season three, where this now is about sort of Buddhism and spirituality and people examining their own suffering and death.

Well, the first season was definitely like a class, upstairs, downstairs, comedy of manners kind of thing.

And I, I mean, I don't know, I do read a lot of Buddhism, so I have thoughts about that.

This one, at least from how I was composing it, there is a using Buddhist sort of

ideas as a organizing

principle.

It was about trying to think about identity as a cause of suffering.

I think identity as this way of thinking about yourself in these concrete literal terms that like then end up becoming a source of pain for you.

You know, it's a source of, can be a source of pride, but it also becomes a source of pain.

And basically, the whole thing is really

a kind of dramatic investigation.

And this is why the writing is a little different than like the other ones.

It's obviously there's satirical elements, but there is a kind of Buddhist parable kind of, it's a, it has a little bit of a parable sort of feel, like the Walton Goggin story.

It's a little, you know, it's not the, it's a little more hard-boiled or something than something that i i usually write the main original idea was having two guys that were seemingly very different but having a parallel experience during the week and one guy who has had so much expectation

he's has some kind of familial backstory of somebody who always was expected great things he's kind of like a pillar of the community you know he still has the respect and love intact of his family and then has done this shady thing and then it realizes not only are they going to be poor, but just this idea of this self that he's created.

He's going to have to, yeah, rip.

rip off the mask and see, see that he's not that person.

It's an annihilation of his identity in some deep way that we're almost like, why live if you can't be that person?

And maybe everything should, let's burn down the entire, you know, world instead of having to face this life post, this identity.

And then the Walton character is kind of the inverted as a guy who was never had anyone want anything for him.

You know, nobody ever really

put the spirit of desire of something, you know what I mean?

Like what parents often do, which is like give kids something to, you know, at least just get the approval of a parent and having him feel like he's nothing inside.

And how that is this, this identity as a victim, a perpetual victim that you can tell yourself, and he has good reason, but how that that can also be a trap and how you don't see the love,

you know, now the last episode, you know, he has this person who really loves him, right?

And he just, it's like he can't experience the love in the present because he's just so fixated on the lack in himself and the lack of love he had in his past.

And then the three women were sort of,

you know, it's like those two male stories are very like epic.

And I was like, it'd be fun to do something that's a little bit more in the spirit of what we've done in the show before, which is a little more like having these kind of more micro issues with each other and thinking about them in terms of like kind of a one self that's been like cut into three parts where they come in, they're like having the same kind of like affirming, upbeat.

female energy of like, you know, you're great and who's your doctor and whatever.

And it wasn't really even so much for me about some kind of skating critique of female friendships.

It was really just more how

we have these touchstones in our lives and how those people can

create suffering for you just by existing because they went a different way and you went one way.

And it just, you always sort of feel like you're defending your choices just by being in presence of someone who you came up with.

And that ultimately, I like the idea of Carrie Kuhn's final speech about how time, like those relationships are, at least for me, where I find a deep meaning in my life.

You know what I mean?

Just like that, the time to check in with those people and see how life has turned out for them.

And then I'm living my life and it just, it feels deep.

You know what I mean?

It's like,

they're not always the deepest friendships, but there's something deep about reconnecting with those people and how, you know, everybody has their own religion, but there's something inarguable about how time creates meaning.

meaning.

In a show that's exploring religion and God or whatever, I felt like that was an interesting or something meaningful to me to want to express.

And then, you know, it's like you realize that the show's pleasures

come a little bit from these very sort of relatable or identifiable types, you know, like people who go on vacation, you know what I mean?

A family that goes on a vacation or a honeymoon or three friends, you know, so like it was like, I was trying to like, what is a new version that isn't the same, like a slightly different family.

But yeah, part of me also feels like, and it's the reason why the first episode is called Same Spirits New Forms.

That, like, in a way, there's an attempt, whether I'm successful or not, to like deepen what's come before or like continue to use certain tropes where the show feels like it's a conversation with itself in some way.

And I actually feel like the discourse or whatever, all the like buzz around it has like brought more people to the show.

And then they come to the show and they're like, what the hell is this?

They're like, like, whatever the pacing and the vibe and like what it's doing, it's, it's, it, it definitely gets under their skin in some way.

And like there was complaining about how there's no plot.

And that part I find weird because the, it never had a, like, like, it's never been, it's like, part of me is just like, bro, this is the vibe.

Like, I'm world building.

You know what I mean?

It's just like, you know, like.

You know, if you don't want to go to bed with me, get out of my bed.

Like, you know what I mean?

I'm edging you.

You know, it's like, enjoy the edging.

Like, if you don't want to be edged, get out of my bed.

Do you know what I mean?

It's just like, don't be a bossy bottom or get the fuck out of my bed.

Like, don't come home with me.

Don't get naked in my bed.

Get the fuck out of my bed.

Right.

It's like, I love being edged by you, Mike.

Obviously, something's going to happen.

I'm not going to just like, yeah, we're not going to be here.

I'm going to leave you here.

I'm not going to leave you here with nothing.

Yeah.

As is stated in the opening episode where Piper's listening to the Buddhist monk and he's like, identity is a prison.

Did you have a sense when you're starting out, who's going where, or do you kind of find it along the way?

When I was in Thailand, I met a lot of these guys who have younger girlfriends.

A lot of them were Thai, but some weren't from, were from other parts of the world.

And,

you know, you could just tell, like, I got on,

I got on an elevator and like, there was this older guy, and the young girl was very like hot and all like, you know,

boobs all pushed up.

And like, she was like, you know, had on her phone.

She was like, oh, she was like showing him some runway photos of something and you could just tell he was just like i could i could not give a shit and was like like there was no like and she was just living in her reality and he was and i was like it'd be fun to start off and you have this kind of relationship where it feels like

he's probably in it for the sex and like he's but it's just not at this point it's almost not worth it but then that ends up being the

the romance of the show.

And I haven't written a lot of that kind of relationship in the show at all.

So I was just like, like, it'd be, it'd be interesting to do kind of a stealth move where ultimately you actually suddenly find yourself really rooting for this couple and you love them and have her be this kind of

woo-woo into astrology, but that like because of that, there's this idea that maybe in their tragic ending, there's something that feels a little like some kind of hint to a life beyond that love transcends this life.

Like even as they're

wheeled out to the plane together in their symmetrical coffins,

their love transcends this in some

bittersweet.

I mean, I know it's not, nobody's going to be like, oh, I'm sweet, but like, yeah, there's some kind of

sentiment there.

Yeah, I think we caught it.

We talked about how she calls it earlier on.

She's like, I'll follow you.

If it doesn't work now,

I'll follow you in the next life.

Yeah.

The next life.

And so, like, I like the idea of giving her a lot of kind of prattle that seems like nonsense, but that ultimately you're like, oh, maybe, you know, and at the end, she talks about the groups working to this divine goal.

So like, whether I believe all that, it's nice to have a voice of that because she has this deep sense of belief and amorphaty and that like things happen for a reason that maybe somehow that takes off the edge of the the sadness of her death in some way because it feels like she has some kind of, I don't don't know, higher power to

what happens next.

Yeah, it's like everyone gets scrambled.

Like there are some people get their fortunes reversed completely.

Some people, like Belinda, just ascend at the very last minute.

Did you have a sense when you thought about putting Belinda back in, you were like, okay, like she's gonna, she's gonna get hers at this season?

Yeah, I, you know, the ending was kind of the first thing I really thought of was like Belinda leaving with money and like leaving somebody in the same way she got leaving.

Yeah, just because there was a, there was some criticism again, like she was the black character, she was the dutiful put upon worker, and then she got this very sad ending where she's like consigned to work there forever while everybody's riding off into the sunset.

And some people,

you know, some people thought that was accurate.

Some people thought that was, you know, too depressing or whatever.

It was just whatever, like, there was a lot of conversation about that part of it.

And

I loved working with Natasha.

And I was just thinking, like, well, you know, like, obviously it was sad to kill Tanya.

And I was like, what could be something happy that comes out of it?

But like, it's easy to be virtuous and have certain kinds of ideals when you have no money and don't have to, you know, really put your money where your mouth is.

You know what I mean?

And it's like, it's, it's one thing to be, oh, yeah, like, I'm going to do this, you know, spa for, you know, for women who have, like, like, whatever her sort of fantasy thing was, but she needs someone to bankroll it, you know what I mean?

And it's like, then you've got the money.

And it's like, can I just be rich for like five minutes?

Like, I just feel like that's a very honest, like, you know, it's like, can I just like, let me just like enjoy this for a second and figure out

so like, maybe she will go and be, you know, do something meaningful.

And I think people do.

I'm not that cynical.

So yeah, as far as your question, like that kind of was actually then an anchoring idea of that she would go and have this kind of, you know, little bit of a, you know,

uh, Stella gets her groove back kind of thing with somebody there and like maybe fantasizing about maybe starting a business with this person.

And then, you know, this windfall comes and it's like, I'm out of here, sorry.

And that we love her because we are with her and, you know, we get it, but at the same time, it feels very like human and doesn't make it like the end of some 80s comedy where they're like, you know, you see them put up the sign of their

spa for, you know, know, like less fortunate people and like giving massages to like housekeepers or something.

At the beginning of the season, we're introduced to the Ratliffs.

I wonder if you can talk more about that plotline and the sort of like southern gothic, you know, like dynamic between the siblings and the parents.

You know, there's a lot going on with that family.

I wonder if you could just talk about that.

Well, there's some things that were cut that spell it out a little bit more

explicitly.

And I feel like I'm happy that they're cut, but it

might have some people feel more satisfied.

The idea of Victoria as the mother, when Leslie Bibb comes up to her and she's like trying to talk to her, she's like, I don't want to encourage her.

I mean, I'm with my family.

Like, get out.

And this idea, like, she's always telling the kids, like, you know, you got to be careful.

You're beautiful, attractive.

Like, she has a superiority complex.

And like, it's, it's, it has extended to her kids and it's turned it into a little bit of a cult where, you know, they're all kind of incestuous.

That, like, like they've you know like she's you know nobody's good enough and so they're all kind of looking inward you know what i mean a bit of an austro-hungarian royalty vibes yeah yeah exactly and then as far as saxon and piper i was trying to think about the last family and how it began with

a Sidney Sweeney's character being like, we don't want you in here.

And the kid has to go sleep on the beach because like he's this kind of like, you know, reject.

And, and I was like, what could be the something that feels like it's like a play on that which is like they all want him in his room do you know what i mean like and i was like oh that's a kind of an interesting idea which is like one kid is sort of like this carnal not only just exists that way but actually has a philosophy around it which is like you want to get pussy like the pleasures of life are very basic and like you know and that like life is about wanting things and getting them and if you can get them then you're going to be happy you know what i mean and that a lot of times people who retreat from life are just afraid that they're not going to be able to get the things they want, or they say they don't actually want the things they want.

And like Buddhism is like, you know, to me is a whole religion about that, which is renounce things because wanting things is suffering.

And so it's just two different arguments.

You know, somebody who's like, I want to retreat to the monastery, not have any desires, and that's going to be the better way to live this life.

And then another one who's calling them on and saying, you're just afraid to have sex, you're afraid to do this, you're afraid to, you know, like, don't run away from life.

And that they, both brother and sister are kind of like two different voices in his ear and he wants to give them both what they want so he wants to go to the monastery with his sister and he's gonna run away from the world with his sister and then with his brother he's gonna go to the parties and have sex the idea was it's a frankenstein's monster which is like all you care about is sex and getting off and so the brother is like okay i'll get you off and then you're like what

wait a minute what and the sister who's like come to the monastery he's like i'm gonna move to your two and she's like uh wait a minute like you know like and and and so and i just liked that there was this symmetry there and that you know they start off in one way and in the end you know he's reading the self-help book the part that was cut to which is very disappointing is that She decides to lose her virginity in the script in the last episode and she actually has sex with Zion, which is Belinda's son.

So she's like, you know,

there's a whole scene where she's like,

she's like, it's true.

Sax is right about this one thing.

I need to get this over with.

And, you know, like, after she leaves the monastery, she's just like, I need to, you know, I need to like have sex.

And like, she's scoping the restaurant, you know, in this.

And, but, like, it was just like one of these things where it was like,

it just felt just again in that, in that series, in that, you know, it's an hour and a half already, and it would have added like 10 minutes to the thing.

And it had a little bit of a romantic

rom-com vibe in the middle of like, you know trying to kill the family with the with the pong pong fruits and it was just like it just felt like i was trying to do too much you know narratively death smoothie and rom-com like in the same 50s yeah you can tell though like after she comes back she stops dressing like wendy from peter pan and like puts on like a yeah

so exactly

that's yeah so when she comes in it's like there's a piece of that conversation that was cut because it doesn't make sense anymore and he's like

you look different and she's like what book are you reading i mean like yeah

There's a scene in the thing.

So, and she has her hair down and she's, yeah.

So it's like at the end when they're on the boat, it's like she's just thinking about how she got, you know, nicely fucked or whatever.

And he's like reading his self-help book.

And it's like, yeah, this kind of rehearsal.

It's funny, too, hearing you talk about it, right?

It's like Lachlan, he's, you know, these siblings have this idea of how the world should be approached.

And Lachlan's like, yeah, I'm going to go 200 times as hard on it as you have.

And both Saxon and Piper are like, oh, actually, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, like, but both of them immediately, like, oh, they, they withdraw.

It's like he, he, he's the stress test for their ideology, and both crumble instantly.

Yeah.

Like, actually, don't jack me off.

Actually, don't move to, don't move to the monastery.

I'm good.

We're good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask about Mook and Guy Talk, who go from, you know, having this unbelievable sort of quiet intimacy and fondness.

And they've known each other since they were kids.

And, you know, you're really rooting for them.

And then as their storyline develops, you're like, Amook's like, unless I see you kill someone, I will not even go to dinner with you.

You know, like I am unhappy sitting across from you unless you are showing me that you're fluent in masculine aggression, which is what I want.

And you be the bodyguard, et cetera.

And Guy Talk, despite being horrible at his job all season, snags via a good shot at the end of.

the finale the prize position of Srita La's bodyguard and he's sort of like putting on the sunglasses and sort of compromising his sense of self but he's got the girl i wonder if you could talk about that storyline and whether you think,

is he happy?

Is she happy?

Are they going to stay together?

I think they are happy.

You do?

Yeah.

I mean, I think that, like, she,

I like the idea that it's about a guy who really believes, has a real deep philosophical

agreement with the Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence.

And yet he's this guard.

I sat and I met a couple guards at the Four Seasons and talked to them.

And it's not a job where there's a lot of like ruffians who come in and like they have to like take them down.

It's it's more just being helpful.

And so I was just thinking that that would be interesting to have a guy who, you know, he's, he's a true Buddhist and he's non-violent, but he likes this girl.

And that like ultimately for him to get the girl and get the job is to like be a killer, you know?

And the happy ending is on the backs of like, we know he killed a guy that we love and like that he went against his morals.

And it's like something that feels very

human which is in order to get ahead you have to you know this is obviously an extreme version of it but you have to like yeah like suck up your idealism and and yeah like uh step up and i don't know like push yourself to the front of the line or push someone you know down the stairs or whatever it is i think we're wondering is like is

she like is mook happy and guy talk sort of

never really can forgive himself right for what he's done like I think at the end, I think he's, I don't, I mean, my feeling is like he, it was worth it.

Yeah.

I mean, he wanted that job.

He's, it's like, he looks cool in his little, you know, he's like, he looks cool.

He's got the girl, but you know, that like something was lost.

But like the way it plays, he's definitely happy with her.

This is what he wanted.

He did want that job, and now he has the job.

And we just know that he sacrificed something that was his immoralism in some way that he can't go back.

I have a question about the about Frank and his monologue.

Where did that come from?

I mean, I remember, I won't name names, but like I went to Japan with this guy who like an actor who's straight and he's obsessed with Asian girls.

And he was just like, you know, like we got there and it was like, you know, it was just he, and he had this thing and it was like, and it was just, it was interesting to just witness it.

And it was like, what is it that like is so powerful?

And where is this coming from?

And, and, and then I'm trying to think of my own, you know, like, where does desire come from?

And like this feeling that there's something that that container holds that feels like lacking in you or something that you feel like you need to commune with that thing to hopefully through some kind of osmosis or some kind of catharsis, get it.

And, you know, as somebody who is attracted to guys, it's very, it's simpler to think about sometimes when it's just like heterosexual love because it's just like a guy likes a girl.

There's some feminine quality.

The girl you know like some like this you know like we're we're we're separated for whatever reason into genders and so it's hardwired in us as a sexual drive you know like and then there's these oddballs or whatever the minority is attracted to the thing that they are

And as somebody who like has had those feelings and been, you're just like, where, what is this desire?

Like, I, I am this.

Like, why do I need, what am I missing that I feel like I need to get that?

And so that's always been something that's been of interest to me.

Like when I have sex with someone who's young and beautiful, I, I, I realize it doesn't wear off on me.

Like

I walk away and they're still young and beautiful and I'm just me still.

You know what I mean?

It's so, it's like you can never, it can never be satiated.

You know what I mean?

Like whatever this thing is, you know what I mean?

And for, and it's different for each person, what that thing is.

And so like this idea of a guy who's just like constantly a slave to his

this desire and was going from girl after girl after girl after girl until the point where it's just like he realizes that he's never going to get the thing he wants.

He could have a hundred girls in a night.

So maybe he wants to be that.

It just felt like maybe that is the next extension of where you think, like, well, how am I going to be satisfied if I become her?

And I somehow figure out some like, you know, you create some role play thing where it's like, you are her.

And then maybe it'll be finished, but it's never finished.

You know what I mean?

There's like, you know, like, so, yeah.

You have to add another person watching to give you the mirror of yourself being

I'm wondering if there's stuff you can tell us that viewers wouldn't know, like things that came together last minute or things that didn't happen the way you originally planned that people might not know about yet, but would want to know.

There was a lot of stuff that got lost, cut.

Yeah, there was a lot more shaping in the editorial than I'm used to because I usually just are trying to make work what I have because that's all we shot.

There was a whole Kate dream sequence, which was really funny.

And I was sad that we lost it.

It's in the third episode after the whole conversation with Trump.

And they had a conversation that we also cut about ping pong shows that happen in Thailand.

And she's hearing about ping pong shows and she's like horrified.

And the other women are laughing at her because she's so like freaked out by this idea of ping pong shows and who would want to see that.

And so she's dreaming, she's at dinner and like these ladyboys hand her a ping pong ball and she's like, you're up next.

And she thinks she has to go do a ping pong show.

And then we did this kind of like Tarkovsky like dream where there's like, you know, we're on the edge of this beach in Thailand and Valentin is like a Christ figure on these crosses.

But it's because she's walking around with this ping pong ball, it's like all very kind of absurd.

And she sees like this on this like stark visual, like this ping pong table at the edge of the water.

And then Michelle and Carrie come out.

to play her in ping pong and then Carrie hides behind Michelle and puts her hands around her and Michelle's hands disappear into the dress.

So it's Carrie's hands playing ping pong and Michelle, and she looks like a dwarf.

You know, it's like this,

they talk about it in the first episode that, like, oh, we did this thing.

We did this, like that we did this campfire thing.

And so like, it's like this, it's, so she's playing ping pong with Carrie and Michelle.

They're like, like a little dwarf.

And it's, it's really visually, like, it was very, it was very cool, but like, it just, I just realized, like, as we put it together, I was like, this is not this show.

Like, it's just something about it just was like, this just feels like I'm, I don't know, the tone just just, it just jumped, jumped out.

And I was just like, this just feels weird.

So sadly, we cut it.

Maybe if there was, if they ever did DVDs, extras anymore, that could be something that people would see.

I wonder, can you tell us anything about season four?

Scouting, themes floating around in your head?

You know, I've had ideas for each season, and then we go and scout.

And once we choose a place, I realize, oh, whatever I was thinking is, is,

doesn't work anymore.

You know, I mean, when we went to Sicily and we found that hotel, it was amazing.

But I was planning on doing like a G7 summit bullshit.

And then I was like, this is not going to happen.

And like, this should be like a bedroom farce kind of.

Wait, you were going to do a G7 summit?

Sorry, could you say more about that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I was just, I was like, they should be like a

Bilderberg group.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like a Davos kind of shit.

And I was like thinking that would be, but then I was like, then once we got there, I was like, no.

So anyway, so I don't know.

I kind of think maybe adding fame.

I just think this one is very epic as far as just like, yeah, like a parable and these kind of bigger, you know, the end is so like, you know, it's, you know, high melodrama in a way, you know what I mean?

And obviously that gets people excited as far as like blood in the mouth and guns and da-da-da.

But I was like, maybe, maybe something a little bit back to like the first season where it's the satirizing stuff that I know about, you know, art and criticism and movies and fame and celebrity and, you know, and the, you know, like a film festival type of thing or something like that, or like a art world sort of situation.

It just feels like that would be some kind of new theme to get into that's maybe a little less heady than what we just did, but still be have some juice to it.

I have a thematic question for you about

this season kind of as a representative of like the whole project of White Lotus, as it were.

So people come with this kind of spiritual seeking.

A lot of the characters are there explicitly for that.

And if they're not, then they wind up kind of realizing that they need to understand something about themselves.

And then they're in this context of Buddhism where a lot of the sort of like narrative is about anti-narrative.

So it's this whole story of which the message is There is no story, right?

Even at the very end, the monk is saying, like, stories don't have to resolve.

They don't need, that's not really the point.

It's like a grandmaster kind of storytelling in order to tell people that, like, well, maybe it's the way you are thinking about story is self-defeating.

Yeah.

Well, that's that's honestly, if I have a religion, that's really my religion.

I mean, as somebody who tells stories,

and this is what I love about being able to keep doing this show, and what I hope by the end of it, when it's all said and done, we'll see that the project of it is really trying to give voice to so many different characters and telling this multiplicity of stories.

And my belief is that as somebody who's dabbled in Buddhism and Buddhism is very minimalist, it's about clearing your mind and dropping the story in the sense of a negation of a story.

You know what I mean?

Like no story, you're no self.

And I, and I believe that's a,

I mean, it's a fascinating belief system and it's really helped me in different times of my life.

But I'm kind of more of a maximalist as far as like, you know what i mean it's just like tell every story and then it just you know it's like you be every person and you you stop taking yourself so literally and you can get inside every head and like you can explore each point of view and you can you know what i mean live all these different lives and if i think about it i actually get kind of moved just because i feel like that's like that is that's my life this is what i'm This is the little project that, for whatever reason, I've set out for myself.

It's just, I realize over time that that's what I've always done as a kid and what I still do as an adult.

And it's how I engage people.

And, you know, it's like you, yeah, it's, it's, I guess it's my own little religion.

And it's like, you want to drop the story,

but not stop telling stories.

You know what I mean?

It's like, in a way, it's like, you, you know, you guys are writers, you know, when you're young, it's like, oh, this is my story.

You know, I'm writing this thing.

And it's like, and only once you've written that thing and you've gone past that, then you're really engaging people in the world.

And maybe I get in the head of somebody else or I'm thinking, you know, it's like, I don't want to be just me.

You know what I mean?

I just remember when I was a kid and when I was, you know, in second grade or whatever, like, and they had this like box with all the costumes in the room and you, you know, you put on different costumes.

And, and I just, you know, like, I always was.

Yeah, I wanted to be the old lady.

I wanted to be all these different things and try those things on.

And, and it doesn't mean that you really are the thing, but you're not really yourself either.

So it's like, it's, uh, it's like, and this idea of being free of taking yourself literally, I just think that that's one of the main tragedies of this world is that people are so tribal and take themselves so literally.

And, and this kind of concretization of identity, I'm against it.

When it started rearing up, I was like, wait a minute, this runs counter to everything that I've always felt, which is like we should be leaning toward where we find each other as opposed to finding all these things that are these differences.

well thank you for talking to us yes thanks it's been great appreciate you guys doing it gee and i had a blast yeah we had so much fun bring us to season four yeah that sounds great yeah yeah there you go we'll see you there

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media.

This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bearman.

Natalia Winkelmann is the managing producer.

Our associate producers are Alison Haney, Anthony Puccio, and Aaliyah Papes.

Sound design and mix by Ewen Leitramuen.

At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.

For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zorokoch, and producer Kenya Reyes.

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.