Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell

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I'd like to make a toast to Thailand

and

I just can't wait to get back home.

But to Thailand, thank you.

Kamku Krakun Kha.

Kamku Kap Kapun Kha.

Okay.

Hello and welcome to the White Lotus Official Podcast Companion to Season 3.

I'm Gia Tolentino.

And I'm Josh Bierman.

And I'm feeling sad.

Yeah.

I'm fucking sad.

It's a sad finale.

I know.

I know.

It's a different feeling from the other two finales.

Yeah.

Where everybody in both cases is like kind of airport reunions, there's like the different kind of resolution.

And here there's a lot of bodies.

A lot of bodies.

Yeah, it was melancholy,

you know.

There's not like a gag at the end of the, like usually there's kind of a gag.

Like we, you have Portia in her insane outfit.

You know, like you've got Jake Lacey still being a dickhead or whatever.

Like here it's fucking sad.

Yeah.

Well, that's what you get when you tackle the season about

death.

about life being a prison about death being the eternal return and the release from about suffering escape yeah yeah and and when you have our you know our faves from episode one chelsea and rick they were our

they were our self-identification characters and we knew they were doomed but we hoped episode by episode that they would make it i know

so far you've been asking the question at the top of the show that kicks it off and puts us into the mode.

And often it was, who are you identifying with?

Now I turn the tables back on you.

It's all said and done.

Who are you identifying with?

Well, the part where Chelsea is like, get me a donut.

And then when Rick gets the look in his eyes, it's like, I'm going to murder someone in 30 seconds if I can't talk to my therapist.

And she's like, no, Rick, no, and eats the donut as she's running after him.

Like, that's, that's, she's still my girl.

She's still my girl.

She's still my overbite representation queen.

I do think,

I mean, Chelsea doesn't have any bad qualities.

I refuse to assign to that angel.

She's a perfect person.

She's a perfect person.

Yes, she's credulous, but I'm not willing to say that she has any negative qualities.

If I am to search myself for my most negative qualities, I'm probably a Jacqueline.

Yeah.

Like a, like

the self-interest, self-centered next

queen.

I wouldn't even describe myself as a queen, but

you know, the sort of behavior I'm feeling.

I'm feeling a little jockeying.

And who are you?

Well,

I think

my time on the Rick Walton Goggins train

might have come to an end because I would not have been snapped back into revenge mode.

I would have stayed in the sweet day.

Yeah, exactly.

I would never have

killed the killer of my father, or it turns out my father.

Like, why was it like you thought you were getting out of this?

You're really

getting it a different way now.

Yeah.

I mean, Chelsea says, stop thinking about the life you didn't have and look at the one you do have.

And I feel like, especially in the moment, coming from that

beam of light entity who is giving you this incredible redemptive wisdom, I would have accepted it.

And for sure, at the moment, I would have probably then vacillated and

fell backwards and gone back and forth in that kind of torment.

But no, in the moment, I would have been like, you're right, we're at breakfast.

Let's just

get these donuts and get out of here.

Yeah.

This episode, the last episode, XL-sized, is called Amor Fatih.

It's written and directed by Mike White.

And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Natasha Rothwell, who has a real big moment.

And coming up in a bonus episode, very soon, we'll be sitting down with White Lotus creator Mike White to talk about the entire series.

So look out for that.

It opens with like a dawn, right?

The whole episode.

You kind of do the carousel of all the characters on their last day.

So in that kind of round robin where we're seeing everybody again for the last time, maybe some of them forever for the last time, you have the monk from the monastery talking about

we wake up every day looking with anxiety, looking for resolution, looking for answers, and basically,

what if there is no resolution?

What will happen today?

What is in store for me?

So many questions.

If you keep looking for resolution, that causes suffering.

So, what if there is no resolution?

Which is an interesting way to obviously open the episode where there is going to be some kind of resolution for this story.

But so, then the question about it is sort of like, how are the characters going to be resolved?

Are the ones who think they need resolution actually going to be choosing the wrong path, which is ultimately what happens, right?

And it's the ones who accept that there may not be a resolution that actually come out ahead, that come through unscathed.

Yeah.

Unless you're Chelsea who accepts that, you know, all we have is the here and now, and she gets fucking murdered by security guards, caught in the crossfire.

I know, poor Chelsea.

Mook and Kaitak, they do end up together.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't like her anymore.

I know.

I know we hate her now.

Now you need to man up, and then I'll be with you.

Oh, yeah, she's red-billed.

She's fully red-filled.

And by the end, she's like, she's, it's actually, it's so the look of love snapping on and off in her eyes.

And she's like, weakness, ew.

I know, I know.

Oh, she plays such the ingenue, but she knows that.

She wants him to be the.

She's like, oh, you murdered someone.

Oh, you killed someone.

it's very sad but he gets the girl he does

and i feel i mean he seems pleased with himself although i suspect he's gonna be unhappy he's gonna be yeah right yeah he's like this is not the way that i wanted to succeed

so belinda yeah let's talk about belinda let's talk about belinda they have a whole i was really enjoying their

return to Gary's house.

Yeah.

And they show up and then Zion's like Zion's crushing her NBA baby.

Yeah.

Let's just let the businessman talk.

And turns out he's an incredible negotiator.

He's an incredible negotiator.

The point is, is there enough money here for everyone to get their happy ending?

I think so.

Five mil.

That's the number he throws up.

And then they, what's so satisfying when she leaves, you think it's genuine.

And then in the hallway, she's like, no, no, no.

Say, I'm crazy.

Say, I'm crazy.

Exactly.

We could kill him.

And then you're like, oh, they're a team.

That's very satisfying.

That's really satisfying.

And I will say, like,

something that I have quibbled with in White Lotus's past is that like by nature, I mean, it's built into the nature of the show that the non-white characters have to be the nice ones because they're the employees.

And so they're forced into like a structural niceness.

They're on the wrong side of the entitlement that generates all the comedy of the show, like necessarily.

And, you know, it sucks to see Belinda immediately Tanya porn chai.

Some things have changed for me, and I'm going to be leaving Thailand tomorrow.

I thought that was kind of great, though, in terms of

like a

title.

So, it's like you realize in the moment, oh no, it's happening.

She's doing the same thing to him.

My circumstances have changed.

Now I'm rich.

She's like, Don't I get to just be rich for a minute?

Yeah, and I'm like, Yeah, I don't want to go start a massage.

And I'm like, Yeah, that's true.

Okay, but then you she immediately takes on like the values of the rich and is like, Okay, I'll see you later for that.

Stuff has changed.

I'm not going to go into this any further.

Right, she starts speaking elliptically and then is like, by the way, and I can't ever see you again.

Because she could instead just be like, why don't you come with me and we'll go on a world tour sex vacation?

She has like the look of sort of distant condescension in her eyes.

And it's like the minute you get some money, you're not the same.

I think she plays, I think Natasha Rothwell plays this episode really wonderfully.

Like I think she's funny in the negotiation scene.

It's funnier when you realize she's faking.

You love getting to see her be like, oh, I'm a rich bitch now.

When that direct deposit hits, we were all like, can you just deposit that much money?

I know.

Does checking accounts do that?

Technical conversation about the

money laundering, logistics, and how does that work?

And you're like, what are the tax implications for Greg slash Gary?

Who cares?

Cut a third out of that right away from your 1099.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's more like 3.5 million.

But it is nice to see her get out ahead.

And I wanted this whole season to see her just be selfish, like to see her be like cunning and selfish, because that's what every other character gets to do all the time.

Although, I guess in the case of Mook and Guy Talk, like Mook is being selfish, and I hate it.

I want her to love Guy Guy Talk for who he is.

But right.

Well, we've seen sort of Belinda's state of unease and kind of the struggle.

So it's much more satisfying, I think, because we want her to win.

And also, also this season, she's saying, oh, you know how to treat a broke-down bitch.

And like, can't I just get a break?

You know?

And so she's kind of in this beleaguered state.

So it's earned the satisfaction to see her become a cunning rich bitch and win.

Yeah.

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What changed for the team today?

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Piper reveals at breakfast she can't hack it.

No, mom, it is.

It is pathetic.

And like,

I don't know, like, I guess I am spoiled because, like,

I can't live like that.

Oh, sweetie.

You don't have to prove anything.

She wants to be absolved of that.

She wants to be absolved.

And then her mother basically gives this like ethical rationale for being content with your station.

She's like, we have it so good.

And if we don't enjoy it, it's an offense to the people who will never live this way.

Right.

And she's like, and then that's like, that's sort of the capper on Piper's emotional reveal.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, that, I found that conversation so painful and so funny.

Her problem is now that she's too privileged and she needs someone to comfort herself out of being too privileged.

But then Parker Posey is like giving the thumbs up over her shoulder.

She's one of us after everybody.

Like, she's a fucking spoiled brat, honey.

We did it.

She'll never be poor because she's afraid of it.

Up till this point, she has looked like Wendy and Peter Pan, you know, and then now she's wearing color.

Right.

Like, she's been wearing white in every single episode, and now she's wearing like sequin blue.

She goes back.

She reverts to.

I'm going to get my job at Sotheby's and like, you know,

and marry just as rich as I ever have been.

Also, while Piper is revealing that she can't, she's not going to be able to hack it at the monastery, then Papa Fernholtz is really like, oh, shit, I guess I got to poison it.

I got to kill everyone.

I got to kill everybody except for a little Lockheed.

Well, he doesn't know yet.

He asks Lachlan, and then he's like, okay, so I don't have to kill him.

Okay, four smoothies.

Yeah, four smoothies it is.

Yeah.

By the way, why do they just have poisoned fruit laying around?

What if there were children

in the villa?

Because that's what the truth is.

Like, sometimes stuff is just poisonous, Josh.

That's nature.

Like, dude, that place is so manicured, they would have chopped those poisoned fruits.

You think?

But isn't there a lot of stuff that's just poisonous if you you eat it wrong?

You know what I mean?

Like, aren't like apricot pits poisonous if you that's true.

You know, good point.

I see your point, though.

If, if they're just, if children can be eating these fruits.

Small complaint about the like the hotel management to leave all this poison

around.

Yeah.

It's also, you know,

we don't need to see it, but I'm like, look up the dosage, dog.

You got to look up the dosage.

Right.

He doesn't have his phone.

He doesn't know how to.

Oh, he doesn't have the phone.

You're right.

You can't look at it.

You just got to guess.

That's why it tastes so bad.

He puts too much of the seeds in there.

He's ripping them all open.

But then you know.

He's doing animal crossing.

He's gathering all of his little fruits.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oh, my God.

And then he gives a speech about, I'm supposed to protect you.

And it's like Jim Jones style.

Like, get ready.

100%.

I love you so much.

We love you too.

Love you.

Love you too.

But I was also just like, you're such a fucking coward.

I was like, this is what I was thinking in my head.

I was like, we're expecting, like, Mook wants guy talked a man up by just like kind of being good at his job.

And then this guy's like parading around like he's the king and he understands success and how to be the lion, the head of the pride.

And then basically the first sign of trouble, he doesn't know what's really going to happen.

He's like, okay, let's, I'll just kill my whole family.

Like it's such a fucking cop-out.

And so then

I was,

you know, sort of rooting for him when he was going to slap the death smoothie out of his kid's hand.

Although, by the way, they had a little bit, so you'd figure they would be.

They'd be shitting all night.

Yeah,

but this is like arguably a whole thing about how you shouldn't take so much clonopin that you end up leaving the dregs of your death smoothie in your blender.

Right.

And he wakes up the next morning and he's like, he immediately looks at the blender.

It's like he was relaxed enough the previous night that he was like, you know what?

I guess I'm not killing my whole family and myself.

I'll leave this dish for tomorrow.

I'll clean up those dishes tomorrow.

I know.

It's for like plot purposes, the Chekovian smoothie has to be left on the counter.

I was really hoping, but towards the end, I wouldn't have seen this at all coming earlier in the season that Saxon would emerge as the unlikely

emotional star of the whole thing.

He kind of almost gets there.

He read the whole book.

Yeah.

You know, there's that moment where Patrick Schwarzenegger comes down to the beach and tells Chelsea that he read the whole book, almost the whole book, and she's like, oh, amazing.

And then she sees Rick and runs to him and they have that, you know, lens flare moment.

And Patrick Schwarzenegger, like, he has tyranny, right?

Like, he's.

I know.

And he realizes for the first time that he's lonely.

You know, like he's, he's, he has realized that he's incredibly lonely.

He, if he hadn't realized that he wasn't, that he was so lonely, he would have had sex with Chloe in the last episode in front of Greg.

Right.

You know, like he's realized he wants someone to love him.

Right.

It's like the best we can get out of this character changing is like the realization that he's not, you know, um

American psycho after all or whatever.

Like he looks at he looks at Chloe, the female version of him, and is like, no, that's not what I want.

Whereas the first episode, he was like, that's all I want.

And now he's like, no.

When he like sheds a tear for Chelsea and Rick's reunion, then turns back to Chloe, and then turns out Chloe is like the hard-nosed, kind of like sexual transaction-based person, and he's turned off by that.

And he realizes like, again, he's vulnerable after the Lachlan thing, but he has realized that he's soulless and no one will ever get close to him unless he has a soul.

And I do remember thinking like, what I want for him, you remember when I said, like, I wanted for him this season to confront the unknowable other, to confront the sort of unassimilability of just another person right in front of you and how kind of terrifying and amazing that is.

And he's never experienced that.

And I wanted him to brush right up against it.

And I thought he was doing it in the funny way when he accidentally had a threesome with his brother.

But instead, he was doing it when he saw that Chelsea actually loved, that something seemed so transactional.

And actually, it was, it was love, illogical love.

And he, he wanted it.

And we love that for him.

Yeah.

The family interaction that precedes the death smoothie is when Saxon is like, worship me, but don't jack me off, bro.

Lachlan's reading his tsunami book that is foreshadowing his near death.

And he's like, I'm a pleaser.

I come from a family of narcissists.

And he clearly feels trapped by his family.

And Saxon says, he's like, he says, no one's going to make you a man, okay?

You got to do it yourself, which is like him talking to himself, you know?

But he's not talking to Lachlan at all.

The irony is that Saxon's trying to let Lachlan off the hook of what he had set him up at the beginning of the trip.

Like, you follow me, do what I say.

And then Lachlan misinterprets that and like tragically throws Saxon into this state of recognition of his emptiness.

All you care about is getting off.

And

I saw you lying there and I thought you looked a little left out.

And I'm, you know, a pleaser.

He's doing his best.

And then Lachlan's like, you know what?

It's been a confusing week.

I'm just going to make a smoothie with one scoop of protein powder, water, and this

poison leftover pina colada.

By the way, yeah, like what kind of is that?

Like some milk from the night before from Thailand.

There's kind of a nice irony that it's the first time he's going to listen to his dumb brother who's like, to be a man, you got to drink this protein shake, which his brother doesn't even believe anymore.

And he's kind of lagging and is lost.

And he says, I don't know anything anymore.

So it's like his answer: I'll drink this

protein smoothie with the dregs of the piña colada.

And then that gives him his kind of death vision.

I think I just saw God.

He tells his dad that he thinks he just saw God, but what we see him see is four figures hovering above him in the daylight that he's trying to swim to through black water.

And at first, I thought it was the family, then it is the silhouettes of four monks.

You figure it's the family, and maybe they're actually standing around him or something, but then it kind of resolves into the monks and you can kind of see the silhouettes of their robes it would have been completely different if tim's own failures had led to the death of his son only and then also a secret that he either has to keep or reveal his incomplete failures i mean now we're like what's going to happen like i thought it was like i mean the general sort of Oedipus-esque trajectory of the thing you fear the most is the thing that you cause

it might be because like in maybe in the constellation of characters Mike was thinking we need there's only room for one pure tragedy, which is the Rick and Chelsea story.

Yeah.

And to have another, they would maybe compete with each other.

It was a good fake out of the Jason Isaacs being the pure tragedy.

Yeah.

But also, you know, we were talking about people passing tests in the last episode.

It's like he, you know, arguably he passed the test.

Like the second, when he knocks the coconut milk out of Saxon's hand, he's actually saying, I am stronger than I thought I was, and I don't have to actually kill my family.

Yeah.

You know,

and then, you know, he's.

So you're saying in that moment, he's already, he has the strength, even before he encounters Lachlan, maybe dying.

Yeah, although when he's clutching Lachlan in his hands, he's like, Oh, there are things more important than money, such as your child being alive.

And I bought that, like, I bought that.

He felt that, and he was like,

That would have been a worse loss than all of it.

And here I was 12 hours ago thinking, actually, I would kill everyone.

In fact, I would give everything to just have everyone be alive.

I will say, for me, more

affecting was actually the resolution of the three gal pals.

I know, I want to talk about the gal pals.

Yeah.

Well, so the first thing that happens is in the wake-up sequence, they're going to maybe go get breakfast together, and Jacqueline goes and wakes up Lori to be like, I just want to apologize.

So that was

a nice sentiment.

I'm like, oh, okay, they're going to work this out.

Well, how I thought it was actually going to work out was the way the dinner starts, which is they are far more distant than they were when they started the vacation.

You know, like you can feel the sort of

the vacation ennui of the very privileged, you know, sinking in where they're just like, this is done with, you know, like, let's get out of here.

I'm tired from my vacation.

And you think it's what Jacqueline and Kate start snapping into, which is the beginning register, which is like, isn't this just the most fun we've ever had?

Like, I have felt so good, ladies, when I'm with you.

Like, I feel, I just feel at home.

My heart is so full when I'm with you, and they're just fucking lying through their teeth.

Basically, trying to like crank up the Victory Tour rhetoric machine again.

They're like, well, let's just see if we can put a little kerosene into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Make it run.

Make it run again.

Yeah, make it run again.

And that's kind of where they're going.

And then Kate is talking about in church.

We learn about this whole herdum kind of like recycled homily.

She's like, the garden has bloomed.

The garden has bloomed.

Here we are.

And it's like me hating my friends more than I've ever hated anyone.

My garden has bloomed so much.

And then Carrie Kuhn steals the show, of course, as always.

But her monologue is so beautiful.

It's so good.

Her face is so amazing.

The way she delivers that.

Jacqueline says, like, my other friends dislike me because of superficial reasons, but you guys can dislike me because of profound ones, which I think is a beautiful thing to say about old friends.

But Lori breaks it all open.

And by admitting how unhappy she is and has been with them, the girls end up like they transcend the sort of Hegelian dialectic that they've been in the entire time, where they're either being honest bitches or fake happy and they're actually real, they're honestly happy with each other because one of them has admitted their profound unhappiness.

I'm glad you have a beautiful face.

And I'm glad that you have a beautiful life.

And I'm just happy to be at the table.

When she says, I tried motherhood and that didn't do it for me, I was like, that's like a powerful, you know, like admission.

And so then she like reveals everything.

She's like, in fact, it's time we're here together.

That in itself gives us meaning.

And we can, as you say, she does what the other ones would ever be able to do, which is like bridge that gap between the different selves.

She finds synthesis.

Yes, exactly.

I know.

And to join you in the graduate seminar analysis,

I was thinking about sort of like in the original treatise that Rousseau writes, everybody kind of forgets one part of it is like civilization doesn't just like

cause a moral or ethical kind of corruption, which is why he's like, let's go back to the state of nature.

It's

being in a world where you have to pretend.

You have to have appearances.

Your authentic self is left behind.

He's like, in the state of nature, you didn't have to pretend to be anything.

You were just like, you know, in your tribal bands and you were living this authentic life.

And so there was no mask.

You didn't have a mask.

And so the mask comes off and the real people are revealed and the real, and then they can finally like be themselves together.

But they only can because they do, in fact, know their profound flaws and they can accept them.

They've already said them out loud.

It's already been out in the open.

And like, I just, I was like, oh, they get to be their authentic selves.

And like, that's

still basically what nobody else figured out how to do in the whole, in the rest of the show.

And there's like a nice, like, it's very sweet when they're kind of cuddled up on the, like, their whole physicality changes.

Like they've been all carrying themselves in such particular ways that correspond to the relative sort of self-consciousness and truth-telling versus not of every scene that the girls have.

But they're finally like, they're collapsed into each other like children.

And it's nice.

It's nice to see.

Right, yeah, yeah.

They turn back into their sort of teen selves where they're slumber party.

Right.

Whether or not like there's no pretense to be had, right?

And there's no appearance to keep up.

Like maybe, you know,

Cameron gave Ethan and Harper a gift in season two by fooling around with one because it like throws everything off.

Like Jacqueline might have actually accidentally prompted a real reckoning with the friends that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Our avatars have had their tragic end on screen.

And they did get to die together.

Yeah.

Together in eternity, as Chelsea knew.

And throughout this episode, like, you know, it's going to happen.

Like they have their peace too early.

You know, the wheel is going to turn again.

Like the moment they have that like truly sweet thing over breakfast where she's like, I think we're going to be together forever, don't you?

And Rick's like, that's the plan.

And it's the first time he's ever.

And she has this profoundly sweet, like shocked,

mutually gratified, like, wow, this is as real as I ever thought it was.

And we're going to do this.

We're going to be together forever.

And you're like, yes, because Scott Glenn's going to kill both of you.

He both is the father and the person that took away the father because he absented himself to take over Thailand or whatever.

And

he basically reveals this to Walton Goggins in the restaurant, but Walton Goggins doesn't guess it at that moment.

One doesn't know for sure.

That's right.

Obviously, I'm like sitting here thinking about Empire Strikes Back, Luke, I and your father.

It's like among the grandest dramatic kind of turns that can happen.

I mean, in the case of Star Wars.

Now let's really get into that.

The revelation is purposeful, right, to kind of draw them closer.

But in this case, the father does not reveal it.

He's cryptic and maybe and he doesn't actually want to put that out there, which may offer like a completely different type of resolution, right, for them.

Yeah, I mean, and I just really can't underscore enough, why is Rick there the next morning?

It's a strange, the bad planner.

It's like the hugest plot hole, we must say, of like, oh, I tried to kill the guy that owns this hotel, but I'm just going to spend a nice, relaxing night, leisurely breakfast, get out at the same time.

Just hang out with these, like, kind of

like a trendy.

It doesn't make sense.

It's the bad situational awareness.

I feel like there's some sort of implicit blame being placed on Amrita here, who's like, sorry, I really have to do this therapy session by the way.

I know, it's true.

You are presenting an acute mental crisis.

You're shaking and sweating and on the brink of tears.

Yeah.

I feel like, right, like some kind of like staff training would have told her to put aside

Zion.

Zion, can you wait seven minutes?

Like, I just need to talk to this man that's on the brink of murder.

Yeah.

I mean, yes, having been in the situation where I was like, I need to talk to my therapist right now.

I was like, definitely with him.

And then he's over there just like sitting on a bench, like waiting in the middle of the hotel.

And then

into which that scene then arrives, like basically

his tragic ending.

But then Chelsea comes running.

You know, she's finished her donut.

and

he's like, go away, I'm in snake mode.

He kind of has this like English patient moment where he's like carrying Chelsea's body through the.

I know.

For me, I was giving OC, Ryan, and Marissa.

You guys know what I'm talking about.

And I like that we came at that completely different angle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Come from completely different angles.

In theory, he's looking for help, but he's also just

kind of doing this.

He's not looking for help.

Like, he knows she's dead.

Like, that's not, he's staggering as slow as a person could ever go.

That's true.

That's true.

He's in grand gesture mourning mode.

Yeah.

And waiting for the bullet in his back because then he knows he can join her

and their eternal search for each other in the many lives hereafter.

Which is, that's, I think, what you're meant to see.

It kind of comes back around.

It turns again.

We're like, oh, well, they're actually together now.

They get to be together.

Yeah.

And maybe since also old man Jim is dead, he can go find him and they can work things out later.

They can all spend some time together as turtles or whatever they're going to be.

Yeah.

And then in the process, like Guy Tuck is having his own test of like, am I going to kill this man

and choose the way of violence and in doing so, get money and the girl and be unhappy with myself forever, but have sunglasses and a black top, which signifies worldliness,

which he does.

I know.

New cool guy talk.

Kind of tamping down, like he's hammering the nails on the box of his previous self-wooded personality.

He's like, well,

Mook didn't like him.

He's like,

I'll try this new character on.

But I think we both agree that,

well, there's also tragedy there.

It's like, by the way, all the men succumb really easily to their urges.

And I guess ultimately, ironically, Tim kind of gathers the strength to press beyond his vulnerabilities.

Right.

It's like

women are selfish.

Men are violent in this season.

Only Chelsea and Tim,

perhaps some of the girls transcend.

Right.

And now, Natasha Rothwell.

Natasha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to us.

Thanks for having me.

Before we get into it, I must ask you, what would you do right now if someone direct deposited $5 million into your checking account?

I would delete Outlook because

now I have to check it.

And then I feel like with $5 million, I wouldn't.

And I'd likely go to a resort.

of some kind.

I don't like to be too hot, but I like to be near the hot with air con.

So maybe a white lotus.

In Hawaii or Thailand.

Perhaps.

Yeah,

perhaps, perhaps.

Get a massage, perhaps from a nice therapist named Belinda, something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you think that Belinda's doing with her?

I think she's trying to adjust to

this sort of shot into this upper echelon of society.

I think that, you know, she gets out of Dodge pretty quick.

You know, she's worried about, you know, being pursued by Greg.

And so I think she wants to go off grid, perhaps.

Maybe she'll go by her middle name.

She's going to go full Gary.

Yeah.

She's going to go full Gary.

Exactly.

Barbara's going to show up somewhere on her fancy bar.

Belinda, yeah.

You remember Melinda?

Melinda.

No, no, no.

I'm not Belinda.

You have me mistaken for somebody else.

That's right.

That's right.

Right.

You think, because I had, you know, another question I had for you was like, is

towards the end of this episode, you're like, oh, no, Belinda's becoming Tanya.

Belinda is now Tanya.

Yeah.

But I'm like, maybe she's actually Greg.

I mean, maybe, maybe she's a little bit of both.

But I think, yeah, that moment is so heartbreaking with her and porn chai at the end there.

And I think, you know,

there's less, um,

I think there's more grief on Belinda's part than perhaps Tanya's part.

Tanya's about to go get dick.

So she's like, bye, girl.

I got to go.

And, you know, Belinda's a little bit more heartbroken that, and she doesn't say no.

She's just like, just right now, right now, I have to get my bearings.

And I do think that maybe she'd circle back.

Okay, that's nice to know.

Speaking of, yes, Dick, why?

We were wondering, doesn't she just say, porn chai, come on with me?

Yeah, porn chai come on.

Let's get out of here.

We don't need to start a business.

Let's try it.

No, I thought about this a lot.

I think that, like, you know, Belinda, she spends her life giving to other people and taking care of other people.

And I think her attraction to porn chain, you know, initially was he was pouring into her and seeing her.

And there was,

oh, come on, guys.

Keep it classy.

No,

no, but he was emotionally.

And I think to bring him along with her, it would be sort of getting another dependent.

And I think that, you know, she even says to Zion, she's just like, can't I just be rich for five minutes?

Like, she just is like,

no, like right now, no one is asking of anything from me.

And, you know, because the first thing, Zion's just like, you're going to make your spot.

He's just, she's just like, let's just pump the brakes and let's just like sit in the space where I'm not doing something for someone else and I'm not making plans.

I'm just enjoying, you know, the comfort of security.

And so, yeah, I think that that's, I think that's why she doesn't bring porn chai on the journey for this next chapter because she's, she doesn't know who she is outside of trying to work, you know so i think she she owes it to herself well you're right she's been she's been taking care of people professionally her son's finally in college like he's on the mba track he's an incredible negotiator yeah you can feel that belinda's like who am i what is my personality actually even like when i'm not having to just take care of people like what do i even want to do

i i was very very broke when i was you know working to become a professional actor and i remember thinking back in those times when I was like you know going through the New York City subway and picking up cards off the ground in case they had money on them like those moments in my life I go back to and I couldn't imagine not being you know

in this never-ending dread about money yeah you know and I think that like when you have that switch turned off, there's just like so much more room in your brain to discover who you are outside of that sort of dire need.

And I I think that, you know, she had her son very young, you know,

bills to pay.

He's still a dependent.

And I think, yeah, for her, she's just like, well, what do I really want now?

And I think that's an amazing question that we can ask ourselves, even if it's hypothetical, you know.

That's nice shading on that moment for the character because in the moment, I was reading it as almost this like materialist argument that like money immediately changes you and that it's she turns into Tanya as soon as she has money.

But I,

that's how it feels.

And that's kind of like that's the pinch in the moment.

But now,

thinking it through and talking about it, I like this idea that, in fact, it is about her evolution of character.

Yeah, and it's like, is her dream actually to open a spa?

Or was that just the grandest thing that was possible, you know, within the framework?

Yeah, right.

It's like now you have to reevaluate what is possible with that kind of, you know,

financial security.

And I think that moment will feel like deja vu vu to the audience because of what happened to her.

But I think if they look at it closely, you'll see, you know, there's she's departing with kindness and really

she reiterates multiple times like some things have changed.

And she's just like, needs to wrap her head around those things because her life just got really big, you know?

I think part of the reason that we jumped to the Tanya reading is because you get to be so funny in this episode, right?

Like I was, you know, Belinda is such a caretaker.

She's forced to be sweet, but you get that she is, she's a lovely, wonderful person who sincerely wants to connect and have these things.

But as a result, like so much of the comedy on the show is generated from people being huge assholes and Belinda just never gets the chance to be a huge asshole.

And it is incredibly fun to watch beginning with that negotiation scene where you think Belinda's walking out for real and she's actually like, no, make him think I'm nuts, you know?

Yeah.

And I wonder if you could talk about that.

Yeah, no, it's actually a scene I pitched to Mike and a part of our process, like we work together.

And originally he had, you know, Zion negotiating without Belinda's help.

And I was telling Mike, I was like, I want to see Belinda tap into her agency and risk it for a biscuit, man.

I want to see her like, you know, shoot her shot.

And, but.

And Mike's genius, he took that pitch.

And it was just, I was just thrilled because it walks that line where she gets to play play her timidity where audiences are just thinking she's going to be, as she is always, she's going to, you know, swallow blood and, you know, keep her lips closed and let someone else speak on her behalf.

And then we see that she's the puppet master and she's just like, and there's this beautiful moment that, you know, is caught where.

We see her sort of like out of fear.

She kind of gets a little bit still.

It's just this one frame.

And you can see, oh, it clicks in her head.

He's scared.

And that's when you see her grab her purse and stand up.

And it's just like, really cool to see her sort of work out in that moment.

We have him against the ropes.

If I can convince him that I'm a threat, then this might just work.

And to see her use her son and all of that, I think it's pretty neat.

We were wondering, actually, like when that comes on, there's a point a little bit earlier where she like accidentally spits out her drink almost when Zion's like $5 million.

Was that play acting?

Because she's already got it in her head that like she needs to kind of create a triangulation here or did it come a little bit later?

No, I think at that point, in my mind, she agreed to a million with Zion.

Like, that's what they said they were going to ask for.

And in the moment, he pivots and she's just like, Jesus Christ.

But then within the next 30 seconds, she's like, you know what?

Let's get that five million.

Yeah.

Well, she sees that he doesn't flinch at the five and she's just like, oh,

he's scared of me.

So it's just like a really nice sequence of Zion pushing the envelope and she's choking on her drink being like, that's not what we talked about.

And then we see her being like, oh.

And you show, I mean, it really does show how great of a team they are.

It's very

significant.

They have so many unspoken conversations.

You know, who's like, they may be 15 years younger than her.

It's a little bit confusing.

Yeah, yeah.

We were doing some math.

We were like, you know what?

We'll take it.

Listen.

I told Mike, too, when he was talking about casting, I was just like, I love him as the choice, but it does say Belinda was in them streets when she was younger.

I was like, just know.

And that informs my character, which is

babies making babies.

Babies making babies.

And also, it's nice because it even reaches back.

It's so satisfying because this storyline starts in season one with her on the phone to her son, like, but guess what, baby, we're going to get the thing.

And then, like, and then it doesn't come true.

And now here it is finally coming around.

Tanya does accidentally give her the gift.

Yeah.

Ultimately.

She died so that Melinda could

fly.

It's amazing too, like you do realize in that scene, you're like, we don't exactly know.

I don't know that we know how long Belinda has worked at the White Lotus or sort of been in the sort of

meticulous catering to extremely rich, self-centered people.

But you're like, she has learned, like, you know, she has a pizza of self-interest and she can read them.

She's had to read them professionally for her work for so long.

And I just found it profoundly satisfying to watch her snap into, like, you know what, this is my chance and I'm going to get one.

Yeah.

I mean,

reading those people, it's her superpower.

And I think that like

she shifts from fear to sort of agency in that way where she taps into what she knows.

And in that moment, she sees.

that she has him against the ropes.

So

she's legitimately afraid of Gary for

right?

Like the previous purse where she's got, where she's got the hands on the purse in the villa, like,

you know, like she's she knows what he's capable of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she could just have an accident and never be heard from again.

And, you know, the stakes of her

with Gary are raised because Zion is physically there.

And I do think that is also why she's willing to tap into risking it because she's just like, he's with me.

And I think it's that sort of mama bear complex of just like, I gotta, we gotta do this so he doesn't hurt you.

You know, there's this kind of like protection that I think comes into play.

And yeah, I think her fear of him is just, yeah, exacerbated by the fact that her son is within arm's reach.

She doesn't even know that he's been on Instagram zooming in on something.

She has no idea.

But she probably kind of knows.

She probably kind of knows.

I think you, you said on the Look Back podcast that at the beginning or before the season started shooting, you had sort of sat down with Mike and talked about Belinda and the character and, you know, where she was going.

Can you talk more about that?

Yeah, no.

I mean, I think this is why Mike is, you know, one of my favorite directors to work with.

He's so collaborative and acutely aware that he's not a black woman.

And so, you know, being able to sit down with him and pitch things that, you know, feel authentic for the character through the lens of Belinda being a black woman, that initiated the conversation.

And then obviously we found very quickly that we're kindred spirits.

You know, we're both writers and can geek out about words on the page.

And so over time, I got more sort of

hubris with my pitches.

I'm like, oh, what about this scene and this and that?

And all within the context and framework of like elevating what he already is brilliant at.

So it's just a dream to be able to collaborate with someone at his level who sees value in my ideas.

And there's no version of it in which I feel like I'm being placated or like his arms being twisted, like he's genuinely like excited, you know, when we get to talk about the lines on the page and my interpretation of what, you know, is happening in this moment.

And that happened when I pitched him the scene with Belinda seeing the black couple.

And that just came out of us talking of, you know, when I travel and I see black people travel.

you know, it doesn't matter where in the world I am, I'm going to go up and say something if we're in a really homogenous space because I want that person to feel seen.

And 10 times out of 10, they want, you know, they love being seen and want to feel seen by me.

And it's this organic thing that happens in black culture.

And I thought it was just so beautifully done in the show.

It was originally a longer scene, but he cut it down to just the look, which I think said more than the words ever did.

And yeah, I just think I'm just so grateful to work with someone like him that.

sees all of my hyphenates.

You know, sometimes you go into a space and you're just like, well, I'm an actor in this space.

And even though I have this really great idea that could solve this problem that I'm overhearing in Video Village, I have to stay in my lane.

And I feel like with Mike, he knows that

I'm an asset.

And so I just love being able to work with people like that.

I was like, where's that?

I was like, where are those other travelers?

They just came here.

Where do they go?

Are they going to come back?

They're just traveling around.

They're just living their best lives.

But one of Belinda to have her vacation buddies, too, you know.

I know, I know.

Maybe next time.

Being a character who has moved from season to season, who would you like to see come back in season four?

Ooh.

Like of all the characters.

Of all the characters.

That's a great question.

I mean, obviously Greg.

I feel like he has to come back.

I feel like

Belinda.

Yes, selfishly.

I want to come back.

I don't know if I will be, but who knows?

You could in the guise of Greg.

Like, you're there hiding.

You're laundering your money.

You know, Belinda's laundering her money.

We cut to her, you know, in France speaking fluent French.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

She's hiding.

Right.

She's just got a little confectionery shop.

Pornchai too is by herself.

Pornchai is there.

There you go.

Pornchai is swagged out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the one of the pleasures of watching Belinda in the finale, as we were talking about, is she gets to be funny.

And I wonder if you could talk about the ways that you have imbued this dramatic role.

You know, not a lot of like, again, so much of the comedy here comes from everyone being an asshole.

Belinda doesn't really get to be.

Can you talk about how you brought, you know, your comedy chops to this character and how, because it's subtle, it's in her reactions, it's in how she looks at people, it's timing.

Yeah, I wonder if you can talk about that.

Yeah, like when we see her, especially those first few episodes, I think we really get to set up this sort of like tranquil sort of

optimism where she's, you know, getting massaged by porn chai and she's learning and she's floating in the water.

And there's this kind of like shark fin coming out of the water, slowly coming towards her that to really fuck up her peace and we see that peace reclaimed in the end and i think that because

you know

the stakes for her are so high

but for her son you know he youth and naivete have given him peace in this moment he's just out there swag alicious with his sunglasses on but belinda's just like we're gonna die so when you juxtapose those energies like it's so funny to see someone have a really really human reaction.

And I think that's like why audiences are so drawn to Belinda because Belinda, for better or for worse, is sort of the audience's conduit into these environments.

And she has such real relatable reactions when it's just like, I'm gonna die, let's call all the police.

And just like, she wants to, you know, she's trying to stay alive and she's gripping her purse like she's a nanny on a bus.

You know, like she's having really human, authentic reactions, which is just a joy to play because it feels of the world of Mike White.

And it's also adding something that we don't get to see through the other characters, you know?

Totally.

And it's also, she's the only one.

Like, something that was stressing me the hell out in the finale, I was like, everyone, get out of there.

Like, everyone, leave.

Chelsea, Rick, leave.

I know, what are you doing hanging around in breakfast?

Like, Rick, you just tried to murder the owner of this damn hotel and you're staying another night and having a bread doughnuts?

Like, perusing the buffet.

And then

white privilege.

Listen.

100%.

Out of fucking privilege.

Belinda's like, I got it.

I know.

Belinda's the only one who's like, listen, we got 12 hours to go.

Exactly.

She's like, go get your meditation in.

We're changing our names.

We're getting the fuck out of here.

She's not playing this.

Let's hang around and, you know, maybe be friends with Greg.

Yeah,

she's street wise for sure.

I want to ask you, so you were, you know, season one, it was mid-pandemic.

I wanted to ask you about this filming this season versus season one of the pandemic.

How was it the same and how was it a different experience

it was just truly night and day because I mean it's worth mentioning it wasn't just mid-pandemic it was pre-vaccination pandemic right so like

yeah like we were we were just scared and my COVIDity timidity was peak you know because this you know

this virus was hunting you know fatty baddies for sports.

I was like, I am terrified to shoot.

And my only reason for doing it, like I met with Mike, I just loved him so much.

So I said yes.

And to go there, you know, we moved into a hotel and stayed there the entire time.

Like we couldn't leave the property and cut to this season.

It's so big.

It's so massive.

I think we moved hotels maybe five times, maybe more.

You know, it was a beast of a production.

And I feel like, you know, the team that was responsible for this season, it's just extraordinary to pull off off what they did because it's complicated.

It's difficult shooting.

You're shooting in the elements.

So if it's, you know, typhoon season or rainy season, we have to, you know, we have to shut down production and we have to pick back up when the clouds roll through.

And there are all these things to consider.

You know, we had many takes, like, you know, when we were shooting those dinner scenes at night ruined by like elephant roars.

And like, you know, there were these massive toads that would just have huge conversations in the middle of scenes.

So, you know, our AD is running around stomping and trying to get the toads to be quiet so we can get the lines out.

And during the day, it was cicada season.

So they're screaming.

And Josh is laughing.

He was there.

He was just like, he knows.

It was just like, for as beautiful as people think the experience, it is,

it is beautiful, but it is a lot, a lot of work to pull off.

recorded television when you can't control the environment.

I do not like reptiles.

and I did have to meet one for one of the scenes.

So that was nature that did not

nature to life.

Your character also was like, get those like lizards out of my room.

Yeah, I thought like it was at a point I felt like they were the lizards in the hotel were like gang members and they were

they were out to get me

and they would like be like yeah yeah she's she's the one she's scared and they would come and be in my shower and like

And I would get real old lady about it.

And I'd like make sure everything was dead quiet and try to listen for their little footsteps.

And then I'd try to like, yeah, it was just, yeah, some Rube Goldberg like traps trying to set them so they like go out on the balcony.

And I was just like, yeah.

Thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show.

It was nice chatting.

It was fun to see you again.

Likewise.

Thanks for having me.

Well,

Belinda was in those streets.

Yeah, she had also done the math on her son, Zion.

That was really fun.

Yeah, she's delightful.

Yeah, we all were like, what would we do if we got five million dollars?

We'd immediately stop working

today.

Right.

It's like, that's everybody's fantasy.

It's not to buy a boat.

It's not to buy a big house on the hill.

It's just like to have time to do whatever you want.

Yeah.

Well, thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show.

And we will see you guys for a bonus episode after this.

The White Lotus podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media.

This episode was hosted by Gia Talentino and Josh Baerman.

Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer.

Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Pachillo, and Aaliyah Papes.

At Campside Media are executive producers Josh Dean.

Sound design and mix by Bart Warshaw at Cocoon Audio.

For the HBO podcast team are executive producers Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer producer Allison Cohen-Sorokach, and producer Kenya Reyes.