Are Your Smart Devices Really Spying on You?

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Okay, so now we know what data they're collecting.

Can you tell us who is this amorphous they?

Who was actually collecting the data?

It's a guy named Gary.

I'm Christine Seer-Clissette.

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

I'm Rosie Garin.

And you're listening to The Wire Cutter Show.

Hi, friends.

Hey there.

Hi.

So we are talking about data privacy.

on the show today and I've actually been thinking and kind of worrying a lot about it recently and maybe increasing since having kids.

Okay, let me explain.

I was in the car the other day and my wife texted me, sent me a text message.

And so being the good safe driver I am, I had Siri play it and

my wife must have had the new Siri AI thing enabled because not only did it transcribe the words she wanted to text to me, it started transcribing or describing the photo she sent, which happened to be of my two children.

And she's describing their features and their faces through the, I was like, cancel, cancel.

She being the AI.

She being Siri, yes.

Was she accurate?

Not really, but I assume they're learning, right?

Yeah.

And so that really gave me pause and it started me thinking about the age we live in with these two polars.

On the one hand, all we have been able to achieve from technology, from our lives being very connected.

And on the other hand, relinquishing control of our data and therefore our privacy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's happening around us all the time.

I think we all kind of understand, or most of us understand, that when we're using things on the internet, we're kind of relinquishing a little bit of our information every time we do that.

Yeah.

We actually published recently a bunch of articles around data privacy and security.

And one of them we're going to talk about today, we're going to bring on John Chase, who is our supervising editor of smart home coverage at Wirecutter.

And his team did this pretty intense deep dive into looking at the data that these different devices are collecting about us.

It's not surprising if you have a quote unquote smart device, like a smart speaker, that it's collecting data on you.

I know that some people choose not to get these devices because of that.

But what this team found is that a lot of devices in our homes that we may not think of as smart devices are actually collecting quite a lot of data.

And it's pretty up in the air about what's actually happening with this data.

So good.

I'm so glad that we gave up our freedoms for this convenience.

Well, but like, what's the, you know, it's tough because what's the recourse?

Going and living off the grid, which actually kind of sounds really nice.

Or like a farm?

We're in this, I think.

Okay, so after the break, we're going to talk with John about which devices are spying on you, what they're looking for, and how to protect your data.

Be right back.

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The Wirecutter Show is supported by Rocket Mortgage.

Your home is an active investment, not a passive one.

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Wayfair loves fall.

The crisp air, the cool nights, and of course, the seasonal lattes.

And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cosify your space, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor.

Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home.

You know the one.

Head to Wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates.

That's w-ay-y-f-a-ir-r.com.

Wayfair, every style, every home.

Welcome back.

With us now is John Chase.

He's a supervising editor on the tech team who covers smart home devices for Wirecutter.

He's also been writing about tech for over two decades.

And a fun fact about John is that, in addition to his impressive career in journalism, he's also worked as a TV writer for several game shows, including my favorite, Cash Cab, and Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?

John, welcome to the show.

That's

incredible.

And also very much tracks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You better say something funny on this episode.

I just want to know if you got to ride in the Cash Cab.

We followed the Cash Cab, kind of like keeping up and making sure we could manage it.

All right.

Okay, well, John, right off the bat, I want to know which of my smart devices are spying on me because I know it has to be more than just like Alexa and Amazon.

First off, we should tell anyone who's listening to this to mute their smart speakers because they're going to be triggered in more ways than one.

I would say spy is a very charged term.

You might just say they are paying attention, close attention.

Yeah, so we like to say that data is the fuel of the smart home, right?

These devices, all of the amazing things they can do, they fully depend on creating and collecting data and synthesizing it and sending it to the cloud.

Like that's just table stakes, right?

So you can't really get around that.

I don't think anyone would be surprised that smart home devices are collecting data.

That's what they do.

But I definitely think there's a few that we encountered that are doing a whole lot more than we suspected.

Like smart TVs were pretty egregious.

I often think of a smart home device as like a smart speaker, something that has smart in the title, a smart thermostat or something.

But what are the devices we're really talking about in the home?

So yes, a lot of times there's devices that are just Wi-Fi connected, which aren't necessarily smart.

We've always defined it as any device that has a control app, has the ability to be accessed remotely and connects to the internet.

And usually we bias towards ones that can be controlled using a third-party platform, which many people are familiar with.

If you have like Google Home, Amazon Alexa, Apple Home.

So that's sort of the broad definition.

But, you know, you've got your smart speakers, you've got your smart light bulbs, thermostats, like your Nest and Ecobee, things like that.

There's also a lot of kitchen appliances have for a long time, you know, like Amazon put out an Alexa-powered microwave.

Why?

I know, and an Alexa-powered clock.

I mean, so there's a lot of stuff out there that may not even be labeled smart, but has the ability to be connected.

Until I have a robot that can take my food and put it into the microwave, I don't understand the purpose of having being able to be far away and having Alexa turn on.

First off, that's what kids are for.

You tell the kids to put the stuff in the microwave.

I get that.

But I think one of the things I sometimes feel like I'm like a smart home apologist, but it's really, it's problem solving.

And there's a lot of people, like one of the things we've really learned in the past few years is with the accessibility community, people who have mobility issues, things like that, a bulb that goes on and off at a set time for someone who has the inability to turn off light bulbs is a godsend.

Turn fans on when it's hot.

Turn your AC on.

Change the temperature.

Yeah, there's definitely some real, real use cases that benefit.

It's life-changing.

Yeah, it can be really life-transforming.

And then, back to what I said before, all of that depends on data.

I know a bunch of people who refuse to get a smart speaker because they are concerned with these devices listening in on them or, you know, kind of collecting their data.

You just listed some like mini devices, many other types of devices, things that people might not think of as smart devices.

What exactly is the type of data that they're collecting?

So there's like personal data type stuff, which I'll talk about in a second.

And then there's also just functional data type stuff.

So I'll give the example of like a thermostat.

Like a smart smart thermostat, you know, it's checking the temperature nearby.

Some of them have a motion sensor.

Some of them also have a presence sensor and they might even have other sensors that are remote.

And it also connects to the internet and it learns over time if the temperature is X degrees outside and it is this inside and the weather is this, it'll take this amount of time for your heat to fully heat or cool your house, right?

That's like functional data.

And then on top of that though, it may have your address.

If you pair it with other devices, then those devices.

And if you connect it to a third-party service, say like Amazon, Alexa, or Google Home or something like that, then things start to get, what I will use the technical term, hinky because it becomes really, really confusing.

And I think

the issue we're all going to be talking about here is just how no mere mortal has the capacity to really gauge what's going on.

None of us really know how much of our personal or situational data is out there at this point.

That's right.

The smart speakers is probably the most obvious example of people getting skeeved out, another technical term.

There's some truth, and then there's also a lot of sort of anecdotal, weird stuff that happens.

And I think it kind of colors the whole experience.

And I'll just state, you know, blankly, I'll just state it like we spoke with all these companies.

We've tested these things for years.

I've spoken with, there's this great researcher who works at Georgia Tech who has tested all these devices.

They give you a signal when they're listing, and listening, and they are, they're always listening.

If you have an, I'll just use Alexa as an example because it's the foremost example.

And Alexa is always listening, but it's literally listening for a particular waveform, like a vocal code, and that's what's called the wake word.

So for some, you can change it.

It's Alexa by default, but you could say computer, you can say echo, you know, that kind of stuff.

Eventually it'll hear that tone and it perks up.

And it signals that it's perked up.

There's a light.

So you know visually that it has happened.

And if it's a wrong thing, it'll just kind of fade and then delete the recording.

And if it's correct and you actually are like communicating with it, it will interact with you and that kind of stuff.

And that does go to the cloud.

And now depending on your settings, we can talk about what that actually means, but like you can opt to have that recording saved or not.

And depending on the platform, you can also, meaning the device, you can also decide whether it records or not.

Like for instance, Google speakers don't actually save recordings by default, which was a great surprise to us.

So I feel like a lot of people might think that an Alexa speaker is listening literally all the time.

Like you hear people say, like, I was talking with my friend about a toothbrush that I really wanted.

And then next thing you know, I get a toothbrush ad.

So it must be listening to me all the time.

It sounds like that's not actually happening.

Yeah.

So there is a phenomenon what you're talking about.

And I don't know if there's a name for it, but there is a thing where people are like, oh, we were talking about Aruba or, you know, a baseball bat or some kind of thing like that.

And then it shows up in your feed.

My understanding, I spoke with a whole bunch of people about this.

Your device, almost all of us could walk around with a smartphone with us, right?

When you connect to the internet, you have what's called an IP address, which is like specific to you.

And if you're connected to Wi-Fi and someone else is connected to Wi-Fi and someone else is connected to Wi-Fi, you become associated.

And so then

you might also travel to other places and you might also search for certain things.

And suddenly this is, it just all becomes algorithmic.

There's basically an association.

There's data profiles of people and these live on your phones.

They live in your laptops.

These devices collect information on you, on your search habits, your location, things like that.

And they allegedly get anonymized, but ads are served to you based on those things.

So if there's an affinity, if you are around other people, they might be like, oh, okay, well, she's, we think she's a white woman who's, who's 21, obviously.

Obviously.

And yes.

And she traveled to Florida and also does this and does this.

And they might serve you the same ads.

And it might be that any one of you might have searched for something recently and that ends up being the trigger.

This happened to me recently because Kyra showed me this swimming pool she went to and it popped up on my Instagram feed.

And I was like, I've never searched this.

But I'll bet you

probably to show Christine.

But you searched it.

Yeah.

And you're affiliated with her because of your address.

And so therefore it's like she, there's a pretty good, better than not chance that this would interest her.

So it wasn't because we vocally talked about it together in this studio.

It was because she had searched for it on her phone and our phones were in the same room.

That's right.

That's so creepy.

But also you guys probably gallivant and you're associated in multiple places and that gives you like, oh, well, she likes nice restaurants and she likes, you go clubbing a lot, I know.

But like all that kind of stuff.

It's like, you know, it adds up to this profile.

The data profile.

And the data profile is like, that's where you start getting really icky.

So, John, you talked about the functional data that's being collected.

What other kind of data is being collected from these smart devices?

Sure.

So, you know, as we talked about, like when you're setting up a device, you use an app and the app will probably ask you, depending what the device is, it might say, what's your address?

Because I need to know that for geolocation, which is like where you are on the earth.

Where you are on the earth.

And that's used for a lot of really cool functions.

You can have things turn on and off when you leave and come home from your house or something like that.

It might be email, phone number.

You might have billing associated with it.

You might have a credit card.

But there's also stuff like there's your IP address, right?

And that is not.

necessarily personal, but it's one of those things that once it becomes associated with you, all of the IP addresses that you travel around the world and connect to all become part of a profile and they make you more and more findable.

You also might have health data.

I was going to ask about health data.

I have an Apple Watch.

I work out with my Apple Watch and I've started using Apple Fitness and the Fitness app and my Apple Watch are integrated.

When you're using a device like that, presumably that data is going into your profile, like things like your weight and other metrics

that are in there, right?

Yes.

I will say Apple actually has really good policies around that.

But if you have a non-Apple thing like a headphone, right?

Yeah, like I sometimes use my sound core headphones with my Apple Watch.

Right.

So those can, there are no rules really around health data.

So any app, like if you have a lot of headphones now have cardiac monitors and sleep monitors or all this kind of stuff, they actually can access your health data and they have willy-nilly access to it.

They can do whatever they want with it.

But HIPAA is like, it doesn't protect protect people anywhere near as much as they think it does.

Okay, so now we know what data they're collecting.

Can you tell us who is this amorphous they?

Who is actually collecting the data?

It's a guy named Gary.

Not Gary.

So the companies themselves, one of the things we kind of learned is large companies are actually tend to be much more trustworthy than small companies, not out of any sense of malice, but because a lot of times smaller companies simply do not have the technical chops to do the security testing.

So when things fall through the cracks, who is it going to be buying it?

Great question.

So there's companies that own it themselves and people talk about like Amazon.

Amazon is a giant sales company, right?

Like they, they want data about you to put products your way and they have millions of partners.

So they state unequivocally, we do not sell data that is collected, but they're still using it, right?

But also Google.

Google is an advertising company, right?

So they are, they also help make ads for other companies.

And so, you know, I spoke with someone who had been like a higher level product specialist about this stuff.

And he was like,

yeah, we don't give the data that we collect.

to those other companies, but they're putting your data to work, you know?

And then there's data brokers, which are these companies that they scour public records, probably work with credit card companies.

Credit card companies monetize your data, right?

Data brokers find ways to get all this data outside of that.

So there's the companies themselves have their data, and then there's external companies that are just finding inroads and trying to monetize it.

So how are the data brokers, like you've got all this smart home data that has been collected about you, the companies that own the devices or that have made the devices have this data.

How are these data brokers accessing your data?

I will say I can't state unequivocally that every company works this way, but we spoke with some people at DuckDuckGo, which is a privacy company, right?

They did a sample of

the top huge chunk of Android apps that are downloadable.

And it was in the

high 90% of them would have Google Analytics in those apps.

And that's because Google, Facebook, and other companies like that, they help small companies make apps easier.

And in doing so, they have their software in there.

So, even though you may not have an association with Google, you may be using an app that has Google Analytics in it, so they would get some of your data.

So, the idea that, like, even though these companies say your data is anonymous,

outside companies, data brokers, they can, it's a statistical.

So, even it's anonymous.

It's, oh, no, we protected it.

We've anonymized data.

Well, yes.

But once they have an association from here, from here, from here, from here, data brokers specialize in unearthing this information, selling it to the highest bidder, and it gets used for useful purposes.

But at the same time, people have been stalked.

Law enforcement uses these.

It's used at the border.

ICE uses it.

Insurance companies use it.

They may or may not decide to cover you.

And the greater overarching concern here is you don't know what data is collected on you.

You don't know how true it is, and you have no access to it.

Those are the real problems.

And there's next to no regulation around any of this.

So we're just swimming around in this like

gray area and all this is happening around us constantly.

I got to know, why is this legal?

Why do we live in a culture and a society like this is so happy?

Because cha-ching, money, money, money, money,

money.

I would say,

you know, the history of technology and innovation when it comes to the government is a history of the government like running frantically behind with like a briefcase that has papers flying out of it and like a floppy hat and like, wait, we're trying to catch up.

And there's, there's vested interests that are like, oh, we're going to make a lot of money and people want to protect that.

And there's also just, it's like the wheels of justice move slowly kind of thing.

It's like, you don't want the government to walk in with a hammer and just like slam down and stop innovation.

But at the same time, you know, we've struggled to find a system that keeps tabs.

The innovations happen so quickly.

We're seeing this with AI, especially, you know.

All right.

Well, I don't want to hear anymore.

We're done here.

That's right.

I'm going to go into my bunker.

But again, so it is totally, it's disturbing, it's annoying, et cetera.

But the better news is on a state-by-state level, there are legislation.

California, you know, always at the fore with this stuff.

They have a legislation that has come out where data brokers will actually have to register.

So it isn't hopeless inso much as the states are taking on some of the burden here.

There's also also a program called a Cyber Trust Mark program, which is supposed to basically be like a food label type thing, nutrition label that will be on smart devices in particular.

And that's actually in the works and as hopeful would basically say it does this, it does this, it meets these standards.

And then there's also the example of Europe where they've, you know, have passed, I think it's GDPR, probably had all those pop-ups every time you access a website that are like, do you submit to these cookies?

And that kind of, that's essentially from that, it's a step forward.

It basically holds these companies accountable and allows people to sort of opt out of data collection policies.

So yeah.

Okay, so to quickly recap, it sounds like it's more than just your smart speaker that's kind of learning about you.

It's really anything that can be connected to the internet that you're probably using for convenience has the ability to maybe collect your data.

And there isn't really much oversight on how much they can collect just from a government level.

And it sounds like there isn't much incentive for that to change, but things are maybe moving moving in the right direction on a state-by-state basis.

The way that you are describing these companies collecting data kind of reminds me of when you go to a bookstore and they cover the book cases in like a brown paper bag, essentially, and they write like a description on the bag and it's like, if this sounds like it's for you, you should buy this book.

Companies are doing that to our data and us, quote unquote, anonymizing us and selling it to the highest bidder, essentially, right?

Yeah, I think that's right.

All right.

We're going to take a quick break.

And when we're back, we're going to get into more details about how specific devices you may own are collecting your data.

We're also going to talk about the ways you can keep these devices from collecting all that data, basically some safety measures that you should probably take.

We'll be right back.

Dell AI PCs are newly designed to help you do more faster.

That's the power of Dell AI powered by Intel Core Ultra Processors.

Upgrade today by visiting dell.com slash deals.

The Wirecutter Show is supported by Rocket Mortgage.

Your home is an active investment, not a passive one.

And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away.

When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family.

Renovations, extensions, even buying your next property.

Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts.

Find out how at rocketmortgage.com.

Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states, NMLS Consumer Access.org, 3030.

Wayfair loves fall.

The crisp air, the cool nights, and of course, the seasonal lattes.

And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cosify your space, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor.

Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home.

You know the one.

Head to Wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates.

That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

Wayfair, every style, every home.

Welcome back.

John, in your article, you highlighted three main devices that you know, perhaps are the most culpable here.

Smart speakers, smart TVs, security cameras, which include video doorbells.

Can you briefly explain how each of these devices is collecting your data?

Let's start with smart speakers.

Sure.

Like with a smart speaker, all of them, there's a setup thing and it's related to an app.

So you're incorporating these devices into like what we call a platform.

It's essentially an app.

And so they have like your basic stuff, your name, your home.

They might have access to your contacts.

They might have access to, depending on the device, might have access to your photos, right?

Like if you have one that has a screen screen on it, if you sync them up with other devices, which is very common, may have access to whatever those devices are collecting, you know?

And then on top of that, with a smart speaker, you're talking to it.

You're asking it questions.

You are teaching it.

You're teaching it.

Exactly.

And honestly, that's about to get a magnitude, many magnitudes greater because the

current versions, I'll say, of, say, Alexa, they learn a little bit, but they don't actually learn in a meaningful way about you.

For instance, the new version of Alexa Plus, it will be learning deeply about you.

Like you can tell it things like, oh, hey, Alexa, I'm allergic to gluten.

I hate Bob Seeger and I only drive Fords.

It will internalize that.

And whenever it's answering you or things like that, it will, in theory, use that in making suggestions.

Because of AI, right?

Because of AI.

Yeah, it's generative AI or learning.

You know, there's language learning models and all that kind of stuff.

But it's basically, it's a different way of interacting with these things.

They're actually learning.

So that's kind of what's coming.

Can we talk about TVs now?

Because I think this is the most mind-blowing thing that I read in your article.

It's like, when I'm watching Severance, my TV is watching me.

So how is that happening?

It's watching your Innie.

Oh, God.

No.

No, you're outie.

It's not outie.

You're outie.

It's watching your outing.

Or is it?

I don't know.

It's both.

Yeah, TVs were like,

after we did our sort of initial research, Lee Nykirk, who covers this, like sort of very casually presented this information and everyone's jaw was dropping.

Essentially, there's a technology called ACR automatic content recognition.

And it's essentially like

if you've ever used, you know, the most common one is like Shazam or something like that, where you want to identify

a song or something.

There's technology like that built into most every TV.

We don't know of a TV that doesn't have it that's been made in the last few years.

So it doesn't have to be labeled like a smart TV to have this.

There's almost no such thing as smart TVs anymore because they're all smart.

Any TV that you're going to connect to the internet or anything like that, they almost certainly have automatic content recognition ACR.

What happens is you're watching TV.

Every couple seconds, the TV's taking functionally, what is a screenshot of what is on your screen, sends it up to the internet, it's analyzed, and then it's added to a data profile.

And then that is sold, shared, packaged, whatever.

And now, if you will also have something plugged into your TV, anything that goes on your screen, this is what's, it's like this amazing thing where it's like,

it recognizes what's there.

So you could have like, it's not even what's streaming through your TV.

Slideshows of your kids.

Slideshows of vacation or something.

So now I don't know that what happens on the far end.

Like they might just be like, oh,

blobby shapes, you know, just not identifying your kids or something like that, but it also, it's out there and you have no idea that.

And so the crazy thing is you sort of opt into this almost certainly accidentally.

Like if you buy a new TV and you hit yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, boom, one of those is almost certainly ACR.

They might have a branded name for it.

Also, if you use a,

let's say your TV itself isn't connected to the internet, but you have a Google TV or Roku especially, or

Firestick, those also have ACR.

I will say Apple TV is the only company we found that of the large companies that does not have ACR built in.

Well, they already have our phones.

So, like, they already have all of my data.

They already have TV.

But if you have your TV that's connected to the internet and you plug an Apple TV into it, anything you watch through your Apple TV, the TV is going to see it and the TV is going to send it all.

Okay, one last device.

Let's talk about security cameras.

You know, I don't think it's surprising.

These things are meant to watch you.

That's the whole point, right?

Yes.

But it is surprising for the data that these are collecting.

Tell us about that.

Yeah.

So Rachel Sarah Cola reported on this, and she

referenced the Surfshark, did a study, which Surfshark is like a VPN security company.

And they said that among all the typical smart home devices, security cameras actually collect the most data points, not volume of data necessarily, but the different types of data.

And that's because cameras have their visual.

They also might have temperature sensors.

Nest cameras have facial recognition.

Some people are like, hey, that's very cool.

You know, I can go back and search for all the times that, you know, my seen my son.

Mr.

S.

Mr.

Thief.

That's my neighbor.

Mr.

Thief.

But you can also understand why that might, someone coming to your door might not want their image on there because who knows what's happening to it online.

Now, again, Nest has a very comprehensive and relatively accessible privacy policy, but there's a lot of gray area in there.

There are some states that have proactively banned this because they say, oh, you should not have the ability to take someone's face and label it it and put it on the internet kind of thing.

Yeah, I like that.

I like that rule.

We should add more of that.

John, based on the first half of this show, I am now completely terrified and I am not willing to have any smart devices in my home.

I don't know.

I'm going back to a rotary phone.

I am moving to the country.

No.

In all honesty, though, it sounds pretty concerning.

Like, I don't want these devices to collect so much about me, but I know that you have a lot of smart devices and clearly you're not getting rid of all of them.

You're not going into your bunker.

Why do you feel comfortable having all of these smart devices in your home?

I think there is absolutely a comfort level thing.

I think also having covered security for a good long while, I feel like for the most part, what happens with smart home is not that very different than what is happening by using the internet and using a smartphone.

I do take basic measures that I think are useful and they do limit extreme exposure, but I also understand this is kind of, it's a cost-benefit type thing.

One of the security people we spoke with was like, you know, he talked about security cameras and he was saying, he's like, I analyze all these devices.

I know what their pitfalls are.

He's like, but I feel more protected having security cameras outside than the alternative, not having them.

And he said, however, I don't have, he's like, I got little kids and I don't like having cameras inside.

But, you know, we cover smart security cameras a lot.

And we do recommend a bunch of indoor ones.

And then you can have them only trigger when there's a pet you can have them only trigger during certain hours you can have them some of them you can have them as you come home they turn off when you leave they go back on that kind of stuff you shouldn't just be casual about like bringing any one of these devices into your home like you should really be thoughtful about it and i do think one of the things we've learned is like do not buy rando devices that you see like the cheap thing with like nine consonants in a row and one vowel named for some you know knockoff of some real device We work really hard on our pics and we vet them and we trust them, but trust but verify, right?

Like that's our, that's our whole thing.

So I don't think you should be incautious around these at all, but I don't think it's completely justified that like these are any worse than

cost-benefit analysis on each device you're using in your life.

And just be prudent like you do with anything else.

It's sort of like use good passwords, right?

Like if you don't use bad passwords, you know, don't make it easy.

So let's talk a little bit about what people can do to protect their data let's break it down by the devices that we just talked about so let's talk through the smart speakers let's talk through the tvs and let's talk through the cameras what what are the steps people can do so you know you interact with the smart speakers with your voice and so if you're unhappy with your voice potentially being recorded and sent out there, you can go into any one of the control apps that are associated with the device.

And you can actually just turn that off.

Within the privacy settings, there's a way to do it.

I'm not going to describe it for each one right now, but there's the ability to either limit recordings or stop them altogether, or you can go back and delete old ones, things like that.

So that's really basic.

You can opt to not have a precise location.

You can sometimes just put in a zip code or something like that when you're setting these up.

You can also use email addresses that are not your main email address.

Which we talked about in our episode from a couple months ago with Max Eddy, and we'll link to that episode in the show notes.

Okay, what about TVs?

TVs is more in-depth.

Essentially, there is one regulation

that is if you have ACR built into a TV, they are required to make it optional.

You are allowed to opt out, which so within, they do not make it easy necessarily, but you're going to have to dig in on the settings.

And same thing, I believe, with the Roko and stuff like that.

You have to go in and actively turn it off.

It may not be called ACR.

It may have another name.

You can probably go to the support page and they'll guide you through it or something like that.

But basically, you're going to go in and turn off one or more.

Sometimes there's a few settings.

It's about data collection, watching habits, other stuff like that.

But you, yeah, turn it off.

Okay, so let's talk about security cameras.

What should people do there?

Yeah, so I sort of mentioned how like our one of the people we spoke with was like, yeah, I don't, I don't have them inside.

But what you can do, you can shop for ones that have robust.

security settings and the ability to turn them on and off.

Don't put them in sensitive areas.

I mean, I know a lot of people, you know, like they have kids and they'll have like a baby camera.

It's not the same thing as a security camera, but you know, those may be going up to the cloud.

You may want to have thoughts around that, like make sure that the company has really secure data handling practices.

I just used one that was audio only.

And you can opt to not use AI with the cameras that makes them helpful, but it's an option.

So it sounds like with all of these devices as well, you really want to know that you are buying a product that is from a relatively trustworthy company.

And so, like, of course, I'm going to plug wirecutter picks if you're listening and you're kind of wondering and you want to shortcut it.

We've done a lot of research.

But if you're going to go out into the wilderness and try to do this on your own, you need to do your homework and just really sort out whether the companies have good data privacy policies.

Absolutely.

And that's what we do is we do your homework for you.

You know, and that's why these are especially important picks because the stakes are so high.

okay so before we wrap we always ask our guests one last question john what's the last thing you bought that you've really loved the last wire cutter pick i bought that i really loved i will be honest with you i haven't used it yet it's like seeing a christmas present under the tree i'm so excited i had one of my neighbors bought a uh ryobi power washer.

I'm going to give you the really elegant.

There was a wind-up

to a power wash.

I live big.

Maybe you've heard of the Ryobi RY1419M TV and 1900 PSI electric pressure.

Wow, that does sound like a Christmas present right there.

Well, so I heard my, I was like, what is that horrible noise?

Like, what has that been going on all day long?

And then I borrowed it, and it was like, I can't find enough uses for it.

I mean, it's awesome.

So I'm unreasonably excited to get home and open that thing up.

Wow.

John, I'm so happy for you.

And I'm grateful that you have joined us today to talk about what has been undoubtedly harrowing, but also incredibly instructive.

So thank you so, so much.

It is my pleasure.

Okay, are we all creeped out now by all of the data that everything is collecting about us?

Terrified, thanks.

Terrified, yeah.

Thank you so much for checking in.

Okay, well, what did you learn today?

What are you taking away?

I learned a lot.

One of the things I'm taking away as soon as possible, Apple TVs are not opting into this automatic ACR.

That's that feature that enables smart TVs to screenshot the TV and then send your data right up into the cloud.

That makes me want to buy one like today.

Yeah.

Another takeaway is to just keep, generally speaking, keep an eye out on AI advances across all of these smart devices and just being more vigilant.

Yeah, that's part of my takeaway too.

I definitely need to be more diligent about opting out of things.

You know, when you download an app, don't let it just take all your data immediately.

Also, y'all will never catch me with a smart speaker ever.

I think I'm just not going to risk it.

How about you, Christine?

Yeah, you know, I think I now understand why I am getting served certain ads when I didn't Google something.

So now I'm understanding a little bit more about how I'm in a network with all of you.

And then you're in a network probably with people I know.

So just the web, the matrix, basically.

And like Rosie, I think I'm going to switch my streaming stick.

I have a Roku streaming stick.

First thing I'm going to do when I get home is turn the ACR off.

And then, yeah, I'm considering an Apple TV now.

If I'm in the system, I'm in the Apple system.

They already have my info.

So might as well.

So look online for a promo code for one.

Thank you.

Thank you.

My absolute pleasure.

And if you want to find out more about Wirecutters coverage or if you want to check out any of the products John recommended today, you can check out our website.

You can find a link in our show notes.

That's it for us.

Have a good week.

Bye.

Bye.

The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel.

Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman.

Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson.

Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia by YouTube, and Diane Wong.

Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general General Manager.

Ben Fruman is WireCutter's Editor-in-Chief.

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

I'm Christine Searclissette.

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

Thank you for listening.

By the way, why is this legal?

Sleeps crazy.

Sleep well tonight, my children.

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