Complete NBA Draft Analysis With Tate Frazier and Mo Dakhil. Plus, a Conversation With New Orlando Magic Teammate Desmond Bane.

Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was quick.

He kept saying, No, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now, Charlie's sober.

He's gonna tell you the truth.

How do I present this with any class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

Yeah, aka Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

Okay, coming up on the Zach Lowe show.

Woo!

A lot going on in the NBA.

The draft was last night.

We've got trades, galore, including a puzzler by the New Orleans Pelicans that is incredibly reckless, incredibly risky.

And boy, oh boy, did the Hawks just walk in to an amazing payoff.

My Atlanta Hawks are coming.

We're going to get into every trade, all the major draft fits with Tate Frazier.

He's going to educate me about college basketball.

We hit top to bottom, everything that happened at the draft.

I haven't addressed the Portland-Boston trade from earlier this week with Anthony Simons and Drew Holiday yet.

We get into that.

Are the Blazers going to be sneaky good this year?

We get into the Porzingas salary dump.

What did the Nets do?

Who are all these players?

How good could the Hawks be next year?

What are the Celtics up to?

Is there anything to that Jalen Brown smoke?

What about the Derrick White smoke?

Are the Celtics going to stand pat?

There's obviously still a lot of offseason left to go, including the second round of the draft coming up tonight.

That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show right after this break.

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Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show.

The draft happened.

A lot of trades trades happened.

I haven't even weighed in on the Boston salary dumps yet.

There is a lot to talk about, and we have college perspective.

Tate Frazier, One Shining Podcast.

How are you?

I'm doing great, Zach.

Happy to be here, and I'm happy to answer any questions you have about Derek Queen.

So I'm ready to go, man.

I got a lot of questions about Derek Queen.

Mo DeKill from video coordinator days at multiple teams from all so many media outlets.

I can't keep track.

He's got his own podcast with Jared Dubin.

You're going to help me with the NBA Fits.

How are you, sir?

I'm doing great, Zach.

And I'm excited to be here and hear from Tate because I got questions about Jared Queen as well.

Let's do it.

All right.

Well, that's where we're going to start.

The Pelicans-Hawks trade from last night and just the general outlook for both teams after both of them made previous trades this week that were interesting trades, one of which was a Boston salary dumped to Celtics, dumping Porzingus to the Hawks in a three-team trade that involved the Nets taking on Terrence Mann and the number 22 pick.

The Nets just drafted five dudes and everyone was confused about how could they draft five guys.

I don't think anyone checked the Nets roster.

They had plenty of room to draft all five guys.

And I don't think they could have drafted a more eclectic mix of guys had they tried just for that purpose to draft eclectic mixes.

Unbelievable night for the Nets.

We'll get to that.

And then, okay, so let's start with this.

Okay, the Pelicans came in with the number 23 pick in the draft.

That was the Pacers pick that was originally the, it was, it's a long story.

They had the Pacers pick, got the Pacers pick, traded the Pacers their own pick pick.

They moved up 10 spots from 23 to 13 to draft Derrick Queen

from Maryland, like Derrick Queen.

That's fine.

In return, they gave the Hawks the 23rd pick, that aforementioned, for which the Hawks selected Ace Newell from Georgia.

People seem to like him.

I know, Tate, you liked him at that spot.

And more importantly, an unprotected 2026 pick that is the best going to Atlanta, the most favorable of the Pelicans' own pick.

You might remember that the Pelicans play in the Western Conference, their starting point guard tore his Achilles, and their starting power forward/slash franchise player never plays their pick, or the Bucs pick.

You might remember that the Bucs' starting point guard tore his Achilles, and the Bucs' best player, if he gets injured for any stretch of time, they are hopeless without a life raft.

Unprotected

in a draft that is absolutely loaded at the top, according to all my draft expert friends.

I'm still in shock.

I can't believe that they paid that price to go up 10 spots to get there, particularly in a draft where we saw a couple of

more than a couple, some trade-ups that made sense.

Like Utah paid a reasonable price to move up three spots from 21 to 18 and draft Walter Clayton Jr.

Great night for Utah.

We'll talk about Ace Bailey.

They're taking Ace Bailey.

Ace Bailey, we don't care that you stiffed us at the restaurant with the bill.

We don't care that you never even came to Utah.

You don't even know where Utah is on the map, maybe.

We don't care we're taking you.

Memphis paid a heavier price to move up from 16 to 11 to draft Cedric,

not Colin, Coward.

Cedric, the coward.

Reasonable trades, both.

This one,

you have to look at it and wonder.

Bryson Graham.

He was the holdover in the front office in New Orleans from the David Griffin regime.

Stuck around for a while, stuck around enough to have some conversations with Joe Dumars and Troy Weaver.

And then went to Atlanta and took a promotion to go to Atlanta and be once Soleil's right-hand man, one of two.

And then on draft night, you have to wonder if in the lead up to it, he told the Hawks, I know what Joe wants, and we're going to squeeze him really, really hard.

I think this is an absolutely reckless.

reckless trade.

And it's so reckless that I was texting with some people this morning, front office people, scouts, and about,

you know,

because the trade is going to overshadow that the Pelicans walked out of this draft with Jeremiah Fierce at seven, who people seem reasonably excited about as like an upside.

Like, why not?

What else do we have going on?

Super skilled with the ball pick.

And Derek Queen at 13, a very high-profile, super-skilled college player.

Like, if both of those hit, like, the Pelicans are counting on all the, you can critique our process all you want.

The results are going to bear out.

So, Tate, I ask you,

tell me about these guys and how they fit on a Pelicans team that, by the way, to me, inexplicably just volunteered to take on Jordan Poole's salary for an extra year for some reason and trading C.J.

McCollum to the Wizards.

If I had to project it out, I would say their starting five is Jordan Poole with DeJounte Murray out recovering from an Achilles injury.

Herb Jones Jr., love him.

Trey Murphy III, love him.

Didn't get why there was any trade buzz about those guys.

Don't really buy that it was real because why would those are the last guys I'm trading if I'm the Pelicans?

Zion,

great when he plays.

Misi, like him, fine.

That's why I didn't, I didn't understand the Malowatch buzz for them because they already have Easmissy.

Although everyone wants two centers now, I guess.

Wemby Panic is

flying across the Western Conference.

Then off the bench, you got Fiers, Jose Alvarado, Sadiq Bey, Queen,

the Makovich kid I like that can play Zion at Center.

Like it's an okay team.

Tate, I'm going to go to you first.

Please.

Derek Queen,

sell me on this.

Sell me that he fits with Zion.

Sell me that this price is not the absolute most insane thing that's happened in the NBA in a little bit.

Well, I think there are two conversations, right?

There is the conversation, which is what you're having, which is the NBA conversation, which is this is insane, an unprotected pick.

I'm a Joe Dumars guy.

You know, shout out to McNee State.

I love Joe.

I think Joe's the best.

I love the two phones with Joe.

I think it's a great meme.

I think it's a great moment.

Now,

exactly.

Zach knows what he's doing.

Yeah, you get it.

So this is the Joe Dumars that we know and love.

And I do feel like that Joe, as you mentioned and you kind of laid out, he probably watched Derrick Queen on tape and fell in love with Derek Queen because Derrick Queen has kind of these old school tendencies that you kind of fall in love with, which is in March Madness, we needed someone to make a highlight play, someone to have a buzzer beater to get us going.

Who did it?

Derek Queen.

Who wanted the ball at the end of the game?

Derek Queen.

Who can create for others?

Derrick Queen.

Who has a Wes unselled Kevin Love outlet pass?

Derek Queen.

So I understand the creativity of Derek Queen and why you would fall in love with him, the touch, the feel.

I do feel like he's a very special type of player.

I do think he has star and every single level that we've seen Derek Queen, whether it's high school, whether it's college, whether it's like a random game in the park, he ends up being the best player on the court.

Now, I don't know how it really works, Zach.

I don't know if it's something where like he has a handshake, deal with the guys before he starts playing.

But for whatever reason, people defer to him.

People expect him to be a creator.

People expect him to be a guy guy who can kind of stir the drink for everybody else.

He's a very likable kid.

He's a very affable kid.

I think he's a good locker room presence.

I can see why he maybe didn't do as great in the pre-draft process with some of that stuff because he's a little bit kind of loose and light.

But the basketball speaks for itself.

I think it's a really good fit as far as you know, him, Joe Dumars, that group of guys.

I think Zion will like him.

And I like him as a small ball five.

I like him as kind of a floater.

And he has said multiple times he wants to create on the perimeter.

And I think he can do that.

Okay.

Wow.

That was.

Okay.

Mo, any follow-ups?

Any notes?

Well, yeah.

Like, how do you think he pairs with,

like, how do you think he pairs with Zion on the floor together?

Like, is this going to be a thing where we can only play one of those guys at the same time?

From my understanding, I'm not a big draft guy myself, so it's not like I have a full understanding.

Like, is he a guy that can space the floor a little bit?

Can these two, in your mind, play together?

Because I just think no matter how high you are on him, I think giving up an unprotected pick when you are not projected to be good next year is

absolutely insane.

Like, I'm still flabbergasted.

Like, I slept on it, was tossing all night going, like, man, do they really, like, they really think they're going to be good this year?

Like, I just don't know what the plan is here.

Like, that's the thing I'm worried about is beyond that.

As much as you love the kid, like, you are you wrecking your future in this, in a draft again, that we think is going to be really good in the top.

And that's an area where we would have projected New Orleans to be picking.

And it doesn't help with the conditioning aspect, too, right?

The one knock on Derrick Queen that you would probably point to to say, you know, we need him to be locked in from a conditioning standpoint.

That's the same thing that you kind of had with Zion.

Now you take him down to New Orleans.

This is already an issue for Zion six years in.

We don't want Queen to kind of fall down that same path.

That would be my concern as well.

New Orleans, you automatically gain five pounds when you get off the plane.

And every like week

you get, you get more and more.

It's just naturally how it happens.

So, you're telling me, Tate, that New Orleans traded one of the best assets in the entire NBA now in a draft that is absolutely loaded to pick a player who they then have to tell, hey, can you just not hang out with our best player off the court so much?

Like, I don't think that's a great idea for you.

Is that what you're telling me?

I'm hoping that there is some sort of positive spin on this where maybe Zion sees Derrick Queen and wants to take him under his wing and maybe they get in shape together.

You know what I mean, Zach?

I kind of lean to more an optimist approach with these draft picks, you know?

And I do like Fears, and I do like Queen.

Like, if you just gave me an evaluation, I like Fears too.

I think Fears is a good pick there.

So, if you showed me those two guys and didn't give me the unprotected or, you know, all that sort of stuff in the background and said, hey, the Pelicans got these two guys in the draft, I would come away and say, hey, it's a pretty good draft.

Really, really good players, star upside.

But when you throw in the pick, that's when it makes it a very convoluted conversation.

Now, I want to tie a couple of things together with this next discussion because I I think you just led me to an important point about the Pelicans and

connecting it to the Blazers, who were the other partner for the Boston salary dumps of the week.

The Blazers trade Anthony Simon's expiring contract

and some second-round picks for Drew Holiday.

And that's Drew Holiday's got three years left on his deal.

He's that $37 million player option three years from now.

It's a good bet that he's...

going to opt into that.

That's a lot to take on, even if the Blazers, if you map it out, are safe from the aprons and some years safe from the tax.

They've got a lot of big numbers coming off the books in the next couple of years if they want in Aiton and Robert Williams III, and they just keep acquiring centers.

They lit the world on fire with Yang Hansen, I guess is how you say his name from China, who was mocked in the mid-second round or the high 30s, and they took him at 16 in their trade down from 11.

We'll talk about that.

And it seemed sort of like

that's a little, is that irrational exuberance from Portland?

I know they finished the season, I think, on a 23 and 18 run.

You never know what to make of March and April in the NBA when bad teams start winning a little more games, but there were real signs there.

Scoot, I think, made a leap up.

Denny Avdia was outstanding.

Kamara is a real, a real guy.

And you look at their team now in the wake of that trade.

And I'm going to project, they have seven potential starters, but I'm going to guess that this is their starting five.

Scoot, the runway is there for Scoot now.

And I think Scoot made real strides as a scorer around the basket.

He's a three-point shooter, mid-range, it's only so-so.

But unlike Simons, there are real signs that Scoot's a guy that can make his teammates better and will defend really, really hard.

Simons is like a bottom fifth percentile defender in the NBA.

Scoot, Avdia, Kamara, Grant, Ayton.

That's one iteration of the starting five.

It's one in which both Shaden Sharp and Drew Holiday come off the bench.

Could you star one of them?

Absolutely.

I don't know who you would take out of the starting five.

Could you coax Jeremy Grant?

And Jeremy Grant probably is like, I'm the guy.

And then you have like thiebel.

You start, you stagger one of those.

Those Avdia, Kamara, and Grant could all play the floor.

You stagger one of them, and you have million centers starting with Klingen off the bench.

Like, that's a decent team.

I don't know how they're going to score.

Like, I don't know how they're going to build an above-average offense out of that.

But I think my point is this: I think both Portland and to some extent New Orleans.

Now, New Orleans has so much uncertainty swirling around it between the Murray recovery timeline, if he can even come back this year.

I don't know.

I think they're hopeful.

I think it was late January when he tours Achilles.

And Zion is just a ball of uncertainty.

But I think they're both looking at the West and saying to themselves, everyone says the West is loaded.

And the West is loaded.

But are people kind of overrating the West?

Is it maybe a little kind of fat in the midsection where there's an opening for a random team like one of us to just suddenly be a 46-win team.

And you look up and down the conference, Oklahoma City, we know.

Houston is going to be very good.

Denver, as long as Jokic is healthy, is going to be very good.

And then after that, it's like Clippers,

you know, they have downside risk.

Warriors, they have downside risk.

They're getting old.

They have this Kaminga question hanging over their head.

Memphis just took a step back.

Lakers, I mean, we all think it's going to work with Luca.

It was good last year, but it wasn't like, oh my God, they still need a center, blah, blah, blah.

Mark Williams, their trade target was just traded to Phoenix.

Dallas.

Can we go easy on the Mavs are a championship contender, by the way?

Can we just like pump the brakes on that?

Can we just pump the brakes on the Mavs being the biggest threat to the Thunder in the Western Conference?

That's insane.

That's such an insane concept, right?

Kyrie, people know Kyrie Torre is ACL, right?

Like he's going to be, and he did it in March.

Like he had his surgery in late March.

Yeah.

By the way, I don't know if you guys know this.

Did either of you know, do you know right now that Cooper Flag is from Maine?

Did anybody know that?

The main man, the main character?

I mean, how many more puns can we get, Zach?

No more Maine puns.

Between Maine puns and flag puns, there were just way too many puns.

And like, no state has ever got this much.

When is the last time a state, not a city, not a town, a state got this much mileage out of an athlete?

Like,

I would like to actually think about that.

Enough.

I know he's from Maine.

Phoenix,

Spurs, obviously on the way up with Wemby.

Sacramento, whatever.

Minnesota is actually probably pretty rock-solid unless they do something.

So that's like a fourth or fifth rock-solid team.

My point is this.

Like, I don't think it's crazy for both of these teams to look at the West and say, we have a path into the play-in at the very least.

Now, I think it's a little crazier for New Orleans given their health situation, but

I think both these teams are looking at the West and thinking all the hype around it is legit.

It's a deep conference.

Players keep coming here.

Top picks keep coming here.

Dylan Harper is coming here.

Cooper Flagg from Maine is coming here.

But

it's maybe not as

elite elite across the board as

people think.

And why not bet on ourselves?

Mo, what do you think of that Portland rust and outlook that I just laid out?

I just, the offense is,

I don't quite see the roadmap there, but Avdia made a huge leap last year, drawing fouls, getting to the basket.

Grant didn't play much, and they down the stretch, and they still were winning games.

Like, there's a decent team.

I don't mind them being like, we're going to try to compete.

I think the third year of Drew's deal really makes it a little exorbitant for them.

It's, it's, it's fair to ask, like, did they sell low on Anthony Simons?

I actually probably don't think that they did.

This is a front office that knows how to canvass the whole league.

Once Orlando moved on to Bain, I don't know that there was a huge market for Simons and he's on it expiring, who's going to want money.

I think

I don't love it, but I don't mind it.

And I see what they're trying to do.

They're just like, let's try to win some games.

Yeah, I actually think their run towards the end of the season last year was a bit more real than I think most people.

Like, I think that's something where I look at them going like, this is kind of the Houston roadmap.

for them in the way they're trying to go about things.

I think not just the fact of the matter is, you know, they go on that run at the end of of the season, but I think, you know, defense has been really what they were focused on.

When you look at the way these guys had defended towards the end of the season, especially with guys like Kamara, who you're looking at going like, that's the dude that can be an all-defensive guy to me on a, make a second team all defensive

team, you know, in the next few years with how good he is defensively.

I like what they have in terms of the pieces.

I'm not a big Aiton guy.

And again, they have a million centers.

So I think, you know, we'll see how that stuff kind of tunes this stuff out.

I think they're going to be one of those teams that it's going to be on a nightly basis.

They're very difficult to play against.

And I think this is a reason to go for it.

You have a bunch of young guys.

I think this is the time to take the training wheels off of them.

We got to go win games at this point now.

You got to compete.

You got to try.

You know, you have, you just gave Chauncey an extension.

Joe Cronin got an extension for how he built the team.

everything that you have with them like and i see no reason for them not to they were a 36 win team last season i can't see a reason why they can't be a better team and and make a run for the playing.

I think it's going to be really hard to get in the top six, especially if, again, like you, I do wonder about their offense.

How good are they going to be offensively?

I think they sold Simons at the right price.

I think they, if they held on to him any longer, they probably weren't going to get anything back.

I think the question for me is, you know, are you going to be able to keep Drew?

Is Drew going to want to stay there?

Are you going to be able to kind of, or are you going to turn him into something else?

Like, I'll be curious to see how that kind of plays out.

And again, with the log jam at center, I still think there might be a couple more moves moves coming.

I think the door, all the doors are open.

I mean, I think they traded for Drew Holiday to have Drew Holiday on their team as an adult in the room who, by the way, like,

I didn't like how his game was trending last year.

Now he dealt with some lower body injuries.

Maybe, maybe he'll bounce back.

But the bounce back in the playoffs that the Celtics were hoping for didn't happen.

And he looked old.

He started to look a little bit like an older player, which he is.

But I think they traded for him to be the veteran, the mentor, bolster the defense that particularly when Klingen is on the floor floor is going to be really, really good.

I mean, if there's one thing Klingen can do, I had Klingen on my all-rookie team because he can do one thing really well, and that's good enough for a rookie, protect the rim.

Offensively, I still kind of don't see it with him.

It's just everything is very slow, which is why

their swing for the fences with Yang at 16 was so fascinating to me.

I don't think anybody saw that coming.

They had number 11.

Memphis wanted Coward, which was kind of well known throughout the league.

And Portland moves back five spots and picks up an Orlando pick in 2028, a first-round pick.

So an extra first, that's good because they owe Chicago a first and a few seconds.

Tate, what do you think of the Coward meteoric rise?

I'm looking at your board.

You had him 13 on your big board, college players only.

What do you think of his fit in Memphis?

And how shocked were you by the Yang selection?

And how much film had you done of his play in China?

I know you're a grinding tape like Russillo.

Always locked in.

Yang Hansen, as you know, the Chinese Joker is what we like to call him.

A lot of saucy passes.

You know what I mean?

That's what I learned from my two-minute deep dive into Yang Hansen.

A lot of just impressive passes.

I don't know really if it translates or not, but I like it.

It felt like the Papayanis pick.

Danny Chow had texted me that too from 2016.

You know what I mean?

That's a ton.

Yeah,

I know it wasn't lottery, but it kind of just feels like kind of in that range of like, we're taking a big swing here.

Thon maker at number 10, right?

One of those picks where it was just like, we like this guy.

We're going to take him.

It doesn't matter what the number is.

So I found that a little bit jarring.

But the Cedric Howard of it all, I mean, this is a guy that should have been a hidden gym.

He should have been the 35th, 37th pick that nobody really knows.

He only played six games last year.

But because we're all so smart, Zach, and I give you some credit for this, I mean, there's so much kind of trickle-down economics of everyone knows who is going to be the right recipe of a player in the NBA now.

And I feel like Cedric Howard just checks so many boxes.

And I feel like the shoulders, the broad shoulders, I feel like for Cedric Howard, that is what I would point to as far as the frame, what he can become.

And if you talk about Jalen Wells and Cedric Howard, I think Jalen Wells, you know, obviously top three rookie of the year voting this year, very underrated player.

He's six foot seven.

You get Cedric Howard, who's six foot six.

You got these guys on the wing who have a lot of energy, a lot of motor, a lot of upside, and a lot of IQ.

And I think that those two guys together, they also really like each other.

They're good friends.

I just like kind of the teamwork that you got with those two guys on the wing.

Very young, own rookie deals.

They're going to work really hard.

You replace Bain with Coward and Wells.

I think that's a really good fit.

Yeah.

You know, the trade-up in the NBA, the math seldom works out if you just do the Dallas Cowboys draft value thing.

The math seldom works out that trading up is like the quote-unquote smart move.

Certainly,

the Pelicans paid an incredible premium to trade up 10 spots.

There's just no no-math model where that is going to be a smart move.

This one, I really, I don't know what those models would say.

This is why you get

an excess of first-round picks.

It's what the Thunder have been doing with all their first-round picks.

Take a swing.

The Magic pick in 28.

I think it's 2028.

The Magic are probably going to be good.

The cost is like the probabilities favor you there.

And if you really like this guy and you think he fits, go and get him.

And for Portland, just a fascinating move.

They get an extra pick.

But yeah, I don't mind that at all for the Grizzlies.

We have to talk about my pet team in the NBA.

We've talked around it enough.

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Uh, when I had Wazon like two, three weeks ago, and we took we did the East kind of future power rankings and test drove Bill's argument that the Pacers, this was the second round of the playoffs, I think, had the best medium-term future in the Eastern Conference.

I ended up picking Cleveland, but

now, sadly, many things have changed.

Shout out to Tyrese Halliburton, by the way.

Jump passes are good now.

I had the Hawks really high, like fourth or third or something.

And Waz was like, you're being insane.

And I thought, look, like, I kind of like their team.

I like this Daniels, Reese Shay, Johnson, Okangu, two to five.

I lobbied for like, I think it's just time to keep Trey Young and hope you can, there's nothing out there for him.

Sam Amick reported today that the Kings have like

been, I don't know what language you use, but at least like had the thought of trading for Trey Young into their brains and said they don't want to do it.

I've heard the same thing.

He evolved last year in ways I've talked about.

Now, just a little bit.

He's still Trey Young, but like keep coaxing him that way.

Keep getting players, other playmakers, supplementary playmakers, other guard screeners, people that sort of just force him into being a more creative, on and off ball, more unpredictable offensive player.

And then they get this trade.

They walk into this unprotected pick after already digging themselves out of the DeJounte Murray grave with a retrade of DeJounte Murray that turns into a masterpiece.

And I think the Porzingas fit is potentially awesome for them and gives them a completely new style of player to play with Trey.

Look, it still bothers me that we don't really know what was wrong with Porzingas.

He's apparently playing tennis and feeling great and ready to play for the Latvia national team.

That's awesome.

I assume the Hawks have done all their due diligence.

I guess I must like Terrence Mann more than most people because that was just a pure salary dump and they couldn't find anywhere else to put him.

And it shows you in this apron environment, teams are kind of panicking about even $15 million salaries if they're two, three years on them and they had to pay the 22 pick to get off of that.

I guess that's just the cost of doing business.

I like the Porzingas fit for them.

They're one backup wing.

one quality wing away from me being like, this is a legit.

I mean, they might already be a legit threat to make the conference.

I think they, no, no, no, maybe.

They are a legit threat to make the conference finals in what remains of the Eastern Conference next year.

They're one good wing away from being super, super interesting.

They have this trade exception that everyone's talking about that they can use as like a free agency vehicle.

What not anyone else is talking about is they also have Karis Lavert in free agency, and they kind of can't re-sign him and use the trade exception because then that takes him into the tax.

They might be able to re-sign Lavert and use a little piece of the trade exception, but I thought Lavert was good for them.

I think with Mann being dumped and Niang being dumped in that salary dump, they need some depth.

But you look at Trey Young, Daniels, Rishasay, Johnson, Okongu, and then off the bench, again,

I need to see

what Kobe Bufkin can do.

And if they bring back Lavert, and they love Mogay, and I see what they see in Moge defensively, Porzingis is a backup center.

I think they think Porzingis and Okangu can play together a little bit here and there.

But this brings me to my take question.

Aason Newell at 23, you had him ranked eighth on your big board of college players.

Can he step in and be one of these guys that I'm talking about for the potential NBA champion slash dynastic Atlanta Hawks?

I will say this about Aason Newell.

I do think that he's a lottery talent, and that does not necessarily mean that he's going to be, you know, an all-star, a superstar, things like that.

But the fact that he fell to 23, and especially when you add in the unprotected of it all with that trade with the pelicans i think this is a win-win because this is a talent that honestly if they took ace and new at 13 zach that would have been a good pick in my opinion in my estimation i think he is a georgia kid obviously played at georgia going to be in atlanta going to be very comfortable going to have people around him that are going to be very excited there's going to be some energy in that building i do like the trey young of it all in atlanta i think that he's kind of weathered the storm.

They tried to get rid of him multiple times, but again, he won't go away.

I'm on your side.

I think the Hawks are trending in the right direction.

Defensively, they put the right pieces behind Trey Young.

We need size.

We need length.

We've got that now behind him.

Daniels, I thought, was a really good piece for this team, especially with Trey Young.

And I think that Ace of Newell, his game is definitely, you know,

there's going to be some range for him to grow into more of a scorer, into more of a shooter, right?

More of a spot-up guy.

But right now, he's a solid piece.

He can defend the rim.

a little bit.

He can get your rebounds.

He's going to be a solid piece on the block.

He's not going to take shots away from anybody, but a 15 to 20 minute spot minute guy at number 23 who has lottery gifts and lottery talent, I think it's a nice piece for the Hawks.

Let's go.

That's what I wanted.

I was just waiting for that.

Look,

okay,

I love it.

I love everything you just said.

I think the Hawks have really done well the last week or 10 days.

Let's go wrap it.

Oh, by the way, about Trey.

You said they've tried to get rid of him a few times.

I think that was the language you used.

I don't know how aggressive they've been, but I will say this.

At various points over the last 18 months, because the Hawks have like waxed and waned a lot over the last 18 months, right?

Like, they always end up at the play-in, no matter what the path of waxing and waning is to get there.

But

they've had periods, particularly, I think, the first couple months of last season.

before Jalen Johnson got hurt, periods where it looked like, okay, something interesting is happening here.

And then less interesting periods, which is to say, I'm pretty confident that over the last 18 months, there were points at which if there had been a strong offer on the board for Trey Young, he probably would not be on the Hawks anymore, or possibly Ed Shashaysa, not be on the Hawks anymore.

Now, I think I said this already.

Look, I'm not giving him the max extension, just like if I'm the Kings, I'm not giving Zach Levine anything like the max extension.

And if the downside risk of that, is Trey Young being like, I'm Trey Young.

I'm the ice tray.

I do this thing after I make baskets and people love it.

I'm the only reason people have been coming to games here for the last five years.

Give me the max or I'm leaving.

Then I'm living with that.

What I'm trying to do is, can I get you, can I sell you on the vision we have here that you can be the best player on a really good team in a market that loves you?

And we can sign you to an extension that is like reasonable and not the max.

And if I can't, I can't.

But I also know that Atlanta is among the teams that has most closely watched Indiana and will definitely be going to Trey Young and being like, did you watch the playoffs?

Did you see the power?

Now, you're never going to play like Tyrese Halbert.

We get that.

But did you see the power of like a little more pace, a little more unpredictability, a little more give and go and move?

And did you see what can happen when a defensively challenged guard who admittedly is taller than you and has more size and probably better instincts just buys in?

and plays his ass off every minute of every game defensively.

Did you see that?

Because it's a game changer for a team that's trying to win at the highest level.

That's all I'm saying about the Hawks.

Okay, let's rap and fire through some things.

Tate,

Utah,

everyone's excited about Utah that they're among the big winners of the night.

They traded up for Clayton and they had Ace fall, not fault him.

Ace was there at five and they took Ace.

Um, you had Ace number two on your big board.

Um,

and Clayton, I'm looking for where's Clayton?

21.

2020.

Yeah.

Uh, how excited are you about the ace fit in Utah?

I think that Ace Bailey,

I just, you look, the agent of it all, right?

The Omar of it all made this a little bit awkward and made it weird for everybody.

And I do feel like trying to dictate the terms of Ace Bailey's draft destination was.

Definitely a swing and a miss.

But with Utah, they did the right thing.

I think they looked at the board and they said to themselves, hey, even if he doesn't want to be here, or at least that's what the representation is telling us, we know enough based on the intel around Ace, which is, hey, he's great in practice.

He's great in the locker room.

All of of his teammates like him.

He's like a 12-year-old.

Everyone says he's like a teenager, right?

He's just like, he hasn't quite got to that maturation process.

But if you're Utah, we have a runway.

We have time for him to mature.

And we also have a situation where we wanted the number one pick, right?

We wanted a talent at number one or number two or number three.

We didn't get that opportunity, but guess what?

We got a top three talent in the draft.

He fell into our laps.

Yes, he didn't want to work out for us.

Yes, he didn't want to go to dinner.

Yes, he didn't want to call Danny Ainge.

But guess what?

We can still get him to Utah and we get him a nice kind of running mate with Walter Clayton Jr., a guy who's a little bit older, who has kind of gone through the ebbs and flows of college basketball, has now ended up on the right side of things, has a kid, has kind of this responsibility to life.

I feel like some of that stuff around Ace will be really good.

They can grow together.

And I feel like these guys are going to be fish out of water in Utah.

A kid from Florida, a kid from Georgia.

They're going to be out there in the middle of nowhere.

All they have is basketball.

I think they're going to lock in.

I think that's why I really like the Fit because these two guys can kind of fit in with each other.

They can have a kind of freedom with this team as they get rid of the older guys that are kind of on bad contracts and let them go.

And Ace can do some things that'll make you go, wow, you know what I mean?

You talk about mouth agape.

You know what I mean?

You watch Ace Bailey do some things on a basketball court, some of the shots he can hit.

It's really special.

So I just think it's a really good fit for Utah.

And I would be very excited if I was a Jazz fan to have those two guys coming into the building.

I just like the positional fit that both of them have because the Jazz have a lot of these sort of, you know, small guards or ball-dominant guards.

Um, and they, you know,

and centers in Kessler and Filipowski, who's, you know, can play the four, but is also a four and a half or whatever.

Um,

and, you know, these represent positions of need for them, whether Markinen is on the team in two years or not.

It's the kind of size positions that you want.

And they also, if necessary, now I like Hendrix.

I think Taylor Hendricks is on track to be a good NBA player before his injury.

Hopefully he's fine.

If the Cody Williams pick is a bust, like this, this kind of gets you out of that a little bit.

I think it's awesome for them.

It's exciting for them.

And, like, yeah, Ace will learn, will have to learn to like playing for the Jazz because that's who he's playing for.

All right, let's keep going.

Washington, Trey Johnson,

adding to a list of, and Will Riley, adding to a list of young players of Alex Tsar, Bob Carrington, Bilal Kulabali, Keyshawn George, A.J.

Johnson, who they stole from the Bucs in the Kuzma deal.

You know, they haven't gotten the lottery luck.

In fact, they've gotten the opposite.

They had to trade Beal from a position of extreme weakness.

There's something interesting going on in Washington.

And I like getting off Poole's money and bringing in CJ.

And just, you know, I think the bet there for them is CJ is going to be a little less ball dominant than Poole.

So all of our other young guys can get some reps.

He's going to be a great veteran for everybody.

And we can maybe reflip him at the trade deadline.

Sorry, CJ.

I know you love being in trade rumors.

I think they've done a nice job.

You are all, tell me about Trey Johnson and how he fits there.

Well, Trey Johnson this year in college basketball, SEC, best conference ever.

That's what they were saying, Zach.

And Trey Johnson was a freshman.

He led the entire conference in scoring.

So that says a lot about who he is as a player, the fact that he was able to average 20 points a game against the size, against the length of everyone in the SEC.

They're also had

an interesting situation where his point guard, Tremon Mark, was trying to ice him out of games.

It was like an Isaiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Jordan, all-star game situation where these are two ball-dominant guards that are basically like, I'm a senior, I take the shots, I'm a freshman, I'm better than you, give me the basketball.

So that was happening as well.

So for Trey Johnson to kind of, you know, still stay in it, still get his numbers, still be able to make a positive impact from a scoring standpoint, I think that's very positive.

And if, you know, I'm reading between the lines here, if I'm Troy Weaver, the Washington, everyone that's putting this team together, CJ, you mentor Trey.

You help him understand where his spots and his shots are.

You let him him understand what a matured game looks like as a scorer.

And then as soon as kind of that tutelage is over with, hey, thanks, CJ, back to trade rumors and you can go to a contender, all that sort of stuff.

But I like having someone to guide Trey into this situation and you give Bub Carrington the ball more.

You got the front line with Saar.

I mean, I like Keyshawn George, who they got last year in the draft.

I mean, I really like what the Wizards are doing in general, but I think Bub getting the ball.

more, Trey Johnson getting some shots for this team.

There's a lot of things to be excited about with this young core.

Yeah, you know, I'm not sure there's like a long-term alpha number one option on the team yet.

Um, I actually like,

well, I'll get to Houston later, but um, but that's fine.

Like, you, those guys don't grow on trees.

They have a nice collection of young players.

I liked Tsar as a rookie.

I liked Carrington enough.

You know, I'm not, I'm not sure how much offense is there in terms of like, can he really carry a gigantic pick and roll load?

But he's going to get his chances.

Um, I don't know.

Mo, where what team do you want to go to next?

I'll let you pick a team that you're interested to talk about.

I like this.

Well, I think we just got to go to Houston.

I think you mentioned them.

I think that's the team to go to right now.

Well, take it away.

Well, no, I just think I love what they did with the KD trade.

I think the more impressive thing than anything else is the Fred Van Vleet contract extension.

They get him to turn down the player option of $44 million, get him to sign for two years around $50 million.

Like, that's shocking to me a little bit in terms of him just leaving a lot of money on the table in the sense of that, but allows him to be a free agent when there's more projected cap space in two years.

And then it kind of just sets this team up beautifully.

They still have a ton of assets, Zach.

Like, that's the thing that's kind of amazing in the trade that for KD.

Didn't give up Reed Shepard.

No, Jabari Smith.

Didn't give up Cam Whitmore.

You know, I think with all the stuff that they have, like they're still in position if they want to go make another trade.

And I just think looking at at the way their roster is set up, KD, Ahmed Thompson,

Fred Van Vliet, Alpren Shengoon, like you're kind of set up beautifully for them to just kind of continue to be a terror on defense and then have a guy who can get you a bucket at the end of possessions, which is something they struggled with throughout the course of the season last year.

Like I think that's a phenomenal move for them with what they have.

And I really think Ime is excited.

I think this is going to be a fun group to coach.

And I think this is the team that they're trying to put together to challenge the Thunder.

Like, this is the squad right here that's going to be able to do it, I think.

And, you know, they're still not even done.

They still have pieces that they can move if they want to, if there's somebody out there they want to go get.

Look, free agency hasn't even started yet.

Well, it's started wink-wink, but it hasn't actually started yet.

If you asked me to line up teams two, three, and four.

behind Oklahoma City, who's going to walk in as the favorite to win the whole thing again.

In some order, it's Houston, Denver, and you have to put Minnesota there because of what they've accomplished the last two years.

I did the Durant thing already in my last episode.

I love the trade.

I think it's awesome.

The Van Vleet thing is such a masterful use of leverage.

They had this team option on him for $45 million, and they could go to him respectfully and be like, so here's what's going to happen.

We're not going to pick that up, but we are going to offer you.

the equivalent money, actually $5 million more total, but over two years.

So your salary for next year is going to be $25 instead of $45.

If you don't like that,

you can go ask the Nets to spend a lot of money on you this offseason.

There's no cap room out there.

And not only that,

having him at that number puts the mid-level exception in play.

And

just one extra piece, again, is just huge for them off their bench

and

keeps them out of the tax potentially

while using the mid-level.

He also expires right when Ahmed Thompson's next deal will kick in, which is huge timing-wise for them.

I think it's just a home run use of leverage.

I think they're going to be awesome next year.

I have already covered that.

Mo, to your point,

they are flush with assets still.

And this is neither here nor there.

I just want to make sure I remember to say this before I move on.

Houston is one of

a few teams that theoretically, and I cannot say that strongly enough, would have the juice to go chase Jalen Brown.

And there was a lot of Jalen Brown smoke in the ether this week, and a little bit less Derrick White smoke in the ether this week, and nothing happened.

There were published rumors that Utah was trying to make a run at Jalen Brown.

Everyone emphatically turned, said that's not true.

And I believe those people that that wasn't true.

The Hawks have been a rumored Jalen Brown destination for a long time.

I don't think there was anything ever there.

I don't know that there was anything real with Jalen Brown at any point this week.

There were reports that the Raptors offered number nine for Derrick White.

I'm told that's true, but that it happened like a month and a half ago right after Tatum got hurt and Boston laughed at that offer and said we need way more than number nine for Derrick White.

So I don't know.

I don't really.

And then, you know, Shams had the report on ESPN that the phone lines were ringing off the hook in Boston about Jalen Brown in the wake of the Drew Holiday and Christoph Sporzingis.

salary dumps.

I'm sure they were getting calls.

I'm not sure how many calls they were getting.

I got a little pushback on the idea that the phones were just like Dumar's level ringing off the hook.

I'm pretty confident that the Celtics

in the immediate aftermath of Tatum's injury did their due diligence on what they could possibly get for those guys or did their due diligence simply by receiving calls about what they could possibly get for those guys.

Which is my long way of saying, like, nothing's happened with them yet.

If you force me to bet, I would say both of them are on the Celtics next year.

And the Celtics could be okay next year.

I think Bill's a little too high on them.

Like, they're one short-term injury away from being really, really thin.

But I like the Simons move for them.

They might retrade him.

They might not.

He adds a new dimension on offense.

That'll be fun to watch them play to play with a little bit.

They'll be okay.

But I'm just not shutting the door all the way.

on either of those guys being moved.

If the right, I think you'd have to bowl Boston over and be like, this is like, we're having a gap year and you've made it so beyond worth our while that we just have to do this trade.

I'm just not shutting the door all the way.

End of Boston, um,

Boston

segment.

Uh, Tate.

Yeah.

Harper, Castle, Fox, Wemby.

What do you think?

I like that the Spurs decided to fit Wimby's timeline.

I feel like there is this expectation that we have to push everything.

We have to put all of our chips in as if, like, Wimby's going to be away in five years.

I like that the fact that the Spurs were like, you know what?

We have Castle.

We think he's going to be a real player.

He's a rookie of the year, obviously.

We like him fitting into this timeline.

We like the fact that we have the best pick and roll player in the draft.

I mean, if you watch Dylan Harper make reads in real time, he has this anticipatory skill, especially when it comes in the pick and roll of kind of knowing where people are.

knowing where bodies will be and knowing how to move and maneuver in space.

I think it's a very special knack and a very special skill.

It goes back to the fact that he's watched and played a lot of basketball in his life.

So he kind of has this innate kind of knack for knowing where to go with the basketball.

I think that's a nice piece to have.

I think they looked at him and Wimby and they said, hey, this is a future NBA Jam t-shirt right here.

We can't pass up on this.

We can't do a fit pick here when we have this right in front of us.

So I understand the fox of it all, but as you know, and Mo and Zach, I mean, when they made the Fox deal, they had no idea that Dylan Harper would be on the table.

So I do think like it's almost like the rich got richer they can figure it out in camp and from what i know about dylan just as a person he will fit a role if he has to you know what i mean like dylan's not one of those guys is like i need this many minutes this many shots this many that i think he'll get in and he'll make it work so i i think it's a great fit for the spurs i don't think they gave up enough for fox for me to even be worried about it if it in two or three years i decide I got to move him for whatever reason.

Like, I think De'Aaron Fox is really good.

I think the price they paid was low.

I actually, you know, Sacramento, a little shout out to Sacramento.

The mystery team of the offseason, by the way,

traded a 1 to 16 protected pick from the Spurs to buy into the first round and take Neek Clifford.

So that's a good trade-in slash trade-up of like one roughly equivalent pick.

We like this guy.

We just want this guy on our team.

We're going to trade.

a really limited upside pick that's about the same as the 24 pick.

That's how you do it.

That's a good move.

Sacramento, by the way, all bets are off with the Kings.

Like all bets are off.

Always.

Levine, DeRosen.

Does anyone want DeRosan?

You know, the Heat have been mentioned.

I think the Heat would be smart to prioritize like a Kaminga ahead of a, like a younger guy ahead of a DeRosen.

And I think the Heat, Kaminga, smoke is real.

Sabonis, Sabonis just has to be looking around like, what?

What?

We had Fox and Halliburton, and this is what's left?

Like, all bets are off with the Kings.

They are the mystery team of the offseason.

Nothing would surprise me with the Kings.

But yeah, Spurs, great.

Okay, continuing with Tate educating me about college players.

Edgecombe to the Sixers with Maxine McCain and potentially Quentin Grimes.

Too many guards, just enough guards.

Can Edgecomb play?

Can he slide to the three in some lineups?

What does he have?

A 6'10 wingspan or something crazy like that?

What do we got here?

Yeah, my favorite comp for VJ that I saw.

Shout out to Ant Wright who put this out there.

A 6'5 Andrew Wiggins.

I think that's a very good way to put Vij Edgecomb because this guy is is just a spark plug.

Some of the athletic things that he can do on a basketball court will shock you.

He had the number one highlight in college basketball this year.

He dunked on Mark Few's son, Joe Few, and absolutely bodied him early in the season and then just stood over him.

It was a very like moment where it was just like, oh my God, who is this man?

The stories of his time in the Bahamas, the fact that he took his NIL money and then sent it down to a scholarship to get kids from his hometown to go to a private school that he got to go to as a basketball player, got him three scholarships.

Like

the person of VJ, I think, is really what sold him.

Obviously, the athleticism is amazing.

It's tantalizing.

It's fun to watch.

I think that he can fit into a role.

I think he's a really good kid.

I think a lot of people like being around him.

I don't think he's going to be a very selfish personality to be around.

And as far as the Sixers, I thought they were drafting Vij to trade VJ, but I think once they started.

kind of you know talking to him and bringing him around and sort of seeing the fit they're like yeah we really like this kid why are we going to send him somewhere else let's bring him in and see what happens So, VJ is going to have some highlights.

Vijay is going to have some fun summer league moments.

I think we should get ready for the summer league dunks that are ahead for VJ.

And I like the pick for the Sixers.

I know it was more of a fit pick than it was like the best on the board, but I think he's a really talented player, maybe a little bit underrated at this point because he did fit in a role with Baylor so much.

Now, I do think within Vijay's camp, there's some consternation about,

we think this guy can do a lot with the basketball, and we're a little concerned about how much he's going to get the basketball on a team with Tyrese Maxie and Joelle Embiid.

But that's fine.

You grow into the role as you, I think it's walking into a situation like this is great.

I agree with you that the Sixers would have been open to trading down,

not, but not far down, because as this selection evinces and what I've been saying all along, nothing can be done anymore on Joelle Embiid's timeline.

Every decision they make has to be on Tyrese Maxie's timeline.

This fits that.

This and the Spurs pick fall into the same bucket for me, which is if you think the talent is the best talent, you are not in a place of a franchise to make a decision based on any other factor, but get the best guy.

And if this is the best guy, this is the best guy.

Can you just, can either of you, I mean, I Tate, this is your environment more than ours.

What have the Nets ended up with with these five picks?

That's the next question.

And I'm not even saying that to like

to besmirch the picks, but

they come from all over the world, all different kinds of players.

We have a defensive specialist in Powell.

Uh, we have at least one genius point guard in Passer and Igor Demon.

We have a center in Danny Wolf.

We have, I mean, I don't know, I don't even know where to start.

Yeah, I said that this was the 2009 Minnesota Timberwolves draft where they just took every.

That's pretty good.

Don't

hit them with that.

Don't hit them with that.

That's what I'm saying.

That's what was happening.

They just took every guard on the board.

I think Yaegor was there.

I mean, mean, they're at number eight.

Yaegor probably would have been gone by the time they get to number 19.

So they just do the Memphis or the Portland pick where they're just like, hey, take our guy.

It doesn't matter.

They take Jaeger higher than most people would take Jaeger.

That was the first shock of the draft for me when they took Jaeger at eight.

We had to take a look at.

Sorry, I mispronounced his name as Igor as Jaeger.

I knew that.

I'm just tired.

Well, at the same,

it doesn't matter, Zach.

You know what I mean?

My rule is we'll learn your name when you become the greatest.

Like, I didn't know how to spell Yannis Anto Decumpo until 2018.

You know what I mean?

Like, that's the moment where I'm like, okay, I got to write this name out and spell it out.

We'll do that with Jaeger at some point, hopefully.

Treor is another one where it's like, yes, maybe this is the guard.

You know, if it's not Ricky Rubio, maybe it's Johnny Flynn.

Maybe it's Ty Lawson, right?

That's what it felt like with his Nets.

They just kept trying to throw, you know, guards out there to see what was going to hit.

I like Drake Powell, a great on-ball perimeter defender.

I went to the McDonald's All-American game this year, talked to some Brooklyn people.

They told me then they loved Drake.

So they weren't really shy about the fact that they liked him and they ended up taking him.

And then I thought Saraf and Danny Wolf, those are what I like to call neighborhood picks.

I just think that they were like, look,

we're in Brooklyn.

Everybody's excited to have some guys out here that like want to be excited to play in Brooklyn.

Danny Wolf, I mean, look at his brother.

He's balling, crying.

Still crying.

Still crying.

Still crying.

So

that was Messi crying, too.

That was just

sobbing.

That wasn't crying.

That was actually blonde sobbing.

Most crying I've ever seen at the draft from the players, by the way, which kind of says something about the next generation.

They're in touch with their emotions.

Let's give them some credit.

Shout out to those kids.

They can feel what's going on in their bodies.

Shout out to them.

But yeah, I just think that this was a Brooklyn draft that would not be considered a great draft, but it is a very interesting draft, a very funny draft.

And again, those last two picks felt like almost just for the crowd, like to get people excited to say, hey, we got D'Angelo Russell from Israel and we got Danny Wolf, who you saw at Yale and Michigan.

He also plays point guard.

So we got five guards who are going to come in and, you know, I guess fit in in some way.

They said they're going to bring everyone over.

So Brooklyn,

I don't know what the grade would be.

I would assume it's trending down C minus or less, Zach.

But, you know,

I sure as hell have no idea.

But I'm excited.

You know, it's interesting that like creativity and passing is a skill that people are reaching for.

Like Yang in Portland, I think, you know, look, no one should say Jokic's name in a draft comp, okay, ever.

It shouldn't come up.

But

just like like size and creativity is a is a prize thing now and i you know the nets are are going for that and i think you know look they've set themselves up to tank this year by reacquiring their own pick uh from houston in the mikhail bridges three team trade um they won too many games and everyone was wondering well are they going to try to load up this summer and i've been saying for weeks i don't think they're going to do that i think they're going to tank again and and collect young talent take picks and salary dumps and they already did that with Terrence Mann.

And that's what they're doing.

And maybe the lottery gods will frown on them again or not reward them again.

And that's just the risk you take.

But I think, you know, what else are they supposed to do?

So that's them.

Okay.

Let's see.

Where do I want to go next?

There's so much to talk about.

Phoenix, Mo.

Phoenix acquires Mark Williams.

from Charlotte.

Charlotte just must have absolutely zero faith in Mark Williams' ability to stay healthy and/or become a serviceable rim protector because I kind of like Mark Williams.

I had a long interview before last season with Charles Lee, just raving about Mark Williams, one of the most mature players

he's ever coached.

I've told this story before.

They do these goals conferences.

Charles Lee likes to do these goal conferences before the season.

He's the only player that came in with a,

like, they didn't even have to have a conversation.

Mark Williams came in with an index card in four quadrants of different categories of goals and handed it to Charles Lee.

He's like, hey, there's my goals you want to talk about.

And Charles Lee had it laminated and posted in his office, like framed in his office.

And they just have been doing nothing but trying to trade him for different

miles for their last year.

Obviously, there's the aborted Lakers trade.

And this is

a little bit less return than that.

It was the 29th pick in this draft in a 2029

pick from Phoenix.

Goodbye, Phoenix, to all your picks.

Yet again, Liam McNeely was selected at 29.

He was weeping as well.

I love it.

I agree with you.

This is a huge moment.

And by the way,

we saw Flip hang out in the green room all last year and then have to go to the second green room in Brooklyn the next day.

Like Wolf and McNeely were probably like, thank God, I don't have to do that.

I'm here.

I didn't just waste my time.

So Phoenix.

They trade for Mark Williams and like five seconds later, they draft Malowach from Duke.

So they have, they just instantaneously get two centers.

And again, I, I, you know,

I, I, as talent plays, like, if Malowach falls to you at 10, you kind of have to take him.

People are very high on him.

The film on him is like outrageous how big he is and how much stuff he can potentially do defensively.

And you want to say, like, well, you know, Mark Williams can be like the current guy and Malowach can be the next guy, except Mark Williams has done next to nothing in the NBA himself because of all his injuries.

You know, and here's where Phoenix is left with after all that.

I have their death chart somewhere.

Here we go.

Starting lineup.

I'm just projecting this out just for fun.

Just I like to do this for fun sometimes.

Pause and do this.

Devin Booker.

I still haven't written my poem, Devin Booker's Lament, which I'm going to try to publish in the New Yorker.

I joked about that earlier this week.

Devin Booker's Lament.

I'm trying to figure out if it should be a haiku.

or a long-form poem.

I'm in contact with the New Yorker's poetry editors about how best to structure it.

Devin Booker, Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks, Royce O'Neill, Mark Williams, eligible for an extension.

I just made that up.

Maybe, maybe.

I mean, like, that's something.

And then off the bench, I have Grayson Allen, Bradley Beale, and just a bunch of big guys.

Dunn, Malowatch, Nick Richards is still here.

Ighidora, I liked okay.

I don't know where it's going or what it's leading to, but

what do you see here, Mo?

And what do you make of the Williams-Malowatch 1-2 acquisition punch within like 30 seconds of each other?

Yeah, I think one, when I look at this Phoenix team, I just look at them going like, I don't know what the plan is in the short term in terms of building out, but I also don't think they have a plan in the long term for what they're building out.

Like, I'm not sure if they really understand the assignment of what they got to do in terms of putting a team around Devin Booker and trying to trying to compete in a very difficult conference in the West.

You know, I think it's still going to be really tough for them across the board.

You know, I like Dylan Brooks.

I think he'll help there defensively for them and sort of be their guy on the perimeter with everything that they have.

We know Booker probably going to have, hopefully have a bounce back year.

I can't imagine he's going to be as bad as he was last year.

I think it's going to be interesting to see how this whole thing kind of plays out.

And then, look, they went from having really no centers, and that was the big thing to saying, like, okay, we're going to go get two centers.

I know the pick that they gave up in 2029 is most likely going to be a late draft pick and a late first round pick, but it's just when you don't have any picks, you know, any of your picks at all over the next few years, like I feel like it's hard to give up a pick in a situation where you're just looking at the least, it's the, I believe it's the least favorable of Utah, Cleveland, Minnesota

that year.

Zach, can we put a cap on like when you did a pick swap and then just like, no, we can swap it 30 times.

There's going to be a hack at some point that's swapped with every team.

Every team.

i'm not smart a promiscuous pick most favorable middle favorable like mildly favorable like i don't like this is too much like i'm i'm it's too much for me you know what i'm waiting for i'm actually waiting for a new version of the marshawn brooks dylan brooks mess up where there's an error in which like teams misunderstand which pick they've acquired or sent out in a trade and the league has to step in and figure it out and there's a whole bunch of attorneys being like well i don't know this was swapped with 2028 and 2029 and 2032.

It just messes you up in that sense.

But I understand, like, they need, they had a need at centers, you know, and listen, if Mark Williams can stay healthy, and, you know, like, I like the promise of Mark Williams.

I like Milo Watch.

I think he's got some development to do in terms of growing into a...

a full-time center in the NBA.

I like what they got in him at 10 and you had to pick him at 10.

I was a little bit surprised he got past Toronto.

But I think this is the move there.

I just don't know when I look at the team, like my expectations for them are very low for next season.

I just don't see what they're going to be.

Also, still don't have a point guard on the roster right now and are over the second apron currently.

Seems like a problem.

Look, I don't, what do you think of what were your, what was your Malowatch evaluation?

Like, obviously, he's gigantic.

He should be a rim protector.

He's incredibly athletic, catching lobs from all the great Duke guys who went all over the top of the draft.

Like, what do we think he can become, Tate?

I will say this about Malowatch.

The hands are great.

And there was a coach K story that Bill has told that I had heard during the season about like how their first practice that Kay went to, like, Malowatch's hands.

He was like, I'm worried about his hands.

And they were like, what do you mean?

He's, he's got great hands.

He can catch the ball wherever.

And they were like, no, from the dunking, like how much he was hitting the rim from blocking shots and dunking the basketball.

They're like, we're worried he's going to hurt his his hand.

So I feel like, as far as a lob threat, Malowatch checks all those boxes.

The usage offensively was so low this year.

Like when they did use him, he was incredible.

The fact that he was able to catch so many different lobs from Flag, they had that little two-man game going where Flag's like at the elbow and basically running high-low with Malowatch.

I thought that was really great in the pick and roll.

Those two guys being able to play off each other.

I think the real thing with me with Malowatch would be the motor.

I would just want to make sure that he is actually as like locked in and you know full throttle as you would need him to be to be your primary number one go-to guy as your center i'm a little bit worried there's a little bit too much finesse there i'm a little bit worried there's a little bit too much lack of lackadaisical play at times um the engagement needs to be there and i feel like if he has a point guard which you mentioned phoenix does not have a point guard so that does not help but when you do have a point guard who can get your big easy buckets easy touches get the basketball in their hand i feel like the engagement in the game will get Malowatch involved and I think he has a high upside if that's the case.

But if you just let him kind of be out of the way and stay out of the way, I feel like it could go really sideways really quickly.

So, if I'm Phoenix, I'm making sure that you keep him engaged in the game.

And I feel like then you get the full version of common Malowatch.

You know, it's interesting.

We talked about

the Spurs drafting for talent over Fit by adding another kind of big guard.

Talked about the Sixers drafting for talent over

Fit, if you want to frame it that way, by adding another guard/slash wing.

center is the one position where I just think there is a bigger downside to doing that because they just can't play together the way you can throw guards and wings on the floor together.

And we saw with Philly when they loaded up on Noel and Okafor and Embiid and on and on, and they just did not have minutes for these guys.

And they had to sell Noel a little bit low in the end.

That one didn't turn out to be that low because he's not in the NBA currently.

But

it, it, and so, like, I just don't see a like a Mark Williams Malowatch 4-5 combination happening, which is, you know, you can spin it this way.

That's fine.

Malowatch is, is he, is Project too strong of a word, Tate?

I think Project's too strong of a word.

I think he can actually play, like, if you had to play him 10 to 15 spot minutes, like if we're in the playoffs, like, I think he could actually do that and help you out.

Right.

So, so, so neither of them.

It's okay to have both because you can look at them based on their experience levels and how far they have to grow in certain parts of the game.

It's like, this is great.

We can split 24 minutes each or 20 minutes, 20 minutes, and then we figure out the other eight minutes.

Neither of them has to play a ton.

Williams is an injury risk.

And so we need an insurance policy long term.

And then you think, well, if, like, if I need that insurance policy and he is injurious, why am I trading all this stuff for him?

But I'm a Mark Williams.

I like Mark Williams.

Defensively is where he's just, he's really just got to dial in because he's just not good enough with his feet in the pick and roll.

He's not good enough instinctually at the rim, despite just

the magnitude of his athleticism around the basket.

He should be a much better rim protector.

He does the thing where he jumps at shots way too late that he has no chance to get, and there's rebounds behind him.

But he's very toolsy on both sides of the floor.

I have a ton of faith in his offense.

He's a monstrous offensive rebounder.

He's a monstrous lob.

He might be like a top three offensive rebounder in the NBA already when he plays.

He talked to people in Charlotte, and they were not blowing smoke.

Like, they didn't tell me this stuff for publication or whatever.

Like, they really think that he'll be able to shoot threes at some point in his career.

Now, he's got to shoot twos, like, beyond the length of his arm first.

But I think there's a real offensive talent there.

It's just with these centers, it's not like he's ever going to be Shengun, like a point center, a post-up center.

He's only going to be able to show off so much of that talent, which means you really have to maximize what you are defensively as a rim protector and pick and roll barricade to make it.

And I think the price they paid to me, I think Mark Williams is worth that bet.

Even with Malowatch coming up behind him, I don't mind that.

I just look at this team and look at all the picks that they're out and all the swaps that they're out, and they're stuck with Beal.

And I'm like, I just

good luck pivoting into something that makes actual sense in the next two or three years.

I don't know if they can do it.

Zach, is there any chance they can get Beal to waive this no-trade clause?

I know it was crazy last year, but is there like what would even be the market for Bradley Beal?

Like, I don't even know if there's anybody that's going to be chomping at the bit to go trade for him.

We obviously saw at the deadline.

There was nobody that was willing to try to make a move, and the no-trade clauses adds a wrinkle.

But is there any way you think in just a situation where Beal just looks around going, like, I don't even want to be here?

And yeah, get me out of here.

It actually makes me sad.

This dude averaged 30 points a game in the NBA.

He could play.

He was an all-NBA player.

He was an all-NBA player on my ballot at least once, if not twice.

And now,

because of nothing he did wrong, really, although he has not played enough due to health reasons.

And you look at his numbers last year, you'd be shocked at how well he shot the ball.

It's like people look at him as just a sun cause off the bench, 17 points on like 50-40, whatever shooting.

Like he shot it really well last year.

And because of the no trade clause, which he asked for and got, he's just unmovable.

My brain hasn't gotten there.

Mo.

Um,

the last team I want to interrogate a little bit is,

you know, I was a little flip earlier being like, can we pump the brakes on the Mavs as like a title contender?

And I'm not backing off that at all, particularly since I don't know when Kyrie is going to come back or, you know, the history of these kind of injuries is it's really 26, 27 when we can expect Kyrie to beat Kyrie again.

And Kyrie has been outstanding for the Mavericks when healthy.

But I just want to interrogate that a little bit with you guys.

And you guys can test if, was I being too flip, dismissing them in the same breath as saying the West below Oklahoma City and Houston is like a little bit murky.

Like there's a room for like a surprise four seed that makes a run, right?

Okay, so let's just plot out their starting five.

This was the starting five that was like plastered across the airways last night.

Kyrie, injured.

So, you know, do with that what you will.

Clay,

aging, somewhat disappointing, year one in Dallas.

Cooper Flag, awesome.

Cannot freaking wait for Cooper Flag.

No other things to say.

He's going to be extraordinary.

Anthony Davis insisting on playing the four.

Congratulations.

You've found a team that is willing to accommodate you.

And Derek Lively.

Now, you got to pencil in somebody to start for Kyrie.

Let's say free agent point guard X, whether it's Spencer Dinwiddie or D'Angelo Russell.

Already, we are not contending for a championship now, just based on that alone.

Any contention dreams this coming season are based on Kyrie coming back and being Kyrie.

But the bench is actually like they've got some, like we didn't mention P.J.

Washington, who I think could start in some circumstances.

Najee Marshall was awesome for them last year in an expanded role.

Gafford, they just extended on a three-year, $54 million deal, which is great value for Daniel Gafford.

By the way Kyrie, I should mention, just extended on a great value deal in his own right.

Max Christie, that's the appropriate role for him at this point, like a solid two-way wing off the bench.

Back up point guard, I don't know.

I like the Brandon Williams kid.

They've got Jaden Hardy hanging around.

And beyond that is omax prosper and you know some other some other you know play ad at the five like that's not well where like what is that team like let's let's imagine a world where kyrie comes back ahead of schedule like let's say what did i say he got injured in in january or something or no in march march march march let's say comes back in january and after a month of finding his footing looks like kyrie What is that team?

That's a really good basketball team, Zach.

That's a team that you look at at going like, this is, I don't, I'm not going contender.

I'm not going with the whole concept of Nico Harrison's vision of this is going to be a championship contender.

I'm glad you said that.

I couldn't believe this was a real quote.

It added to the collection of, I couldn't believe this was a real quote by a Dallas Mavericks executive in the wake of the Luka Doncha trade.

And there are many, I mean, it's Tim McMahon tweets,

Nico Harrison on the Mads winning lottery and the right to draft Cooper flag despite 1.8% odds.

Fortune favors the bold.

So exciting things fell our way.

So exciting.

It's so exciting.

Fortune favors the bold.

So what you're saying, the lottery guards rewarded us for being bold.

Oh, my.

And bold is bold.

Bold is an interesting word to use.

Bold, I guess, does work in one way.

Yeah,

in a certain context of all of that stuff.

But I think there's, you can see kind of the seeds.

First off, they're front court really solid defensively.

I think with what you have, if you have AD

and

excuse me, lively starting and then Gafford coming off, you have a good amount of rim protection with

everything that you got there.

You have, you know, the, the front, the back court is what scares me because, like you said, Clay's aging.

And even if Kyrie comes back healthy, the, the, the back court, the, the shooting guard position is where I'm going to really see a lot of weakness and all that stuff.

And as great as Cooper Flag is, and I'm excited to watch Cooper Flag, he's still a rookie.

Like, I'm not sure if he's coming in right away and going to just automatically lift all the things, all the problems that were going on with the Mavs throughout the course of the season, you know, with their questions defensively, with their shooting, and things like that.

He's going to help with everything.

But I don't know if he lifts you up to that level where we're going to talk about them as like, this is a team that's going to be a threat to the Thunder, a threat to Houston.

Watch out.

Now, here they come.

But they're a team that if they can stay afloat till Kyrie comes and gets his footing, as you said, and it works out where it's not such a long runway for Kyrie to get going.

They're interesting, you know, because Najee Marshall showed a ton in that stretch towards the end of the season.

I love P.J.

Washington.

I think he does a great job.

It fits in perfectly for them with everything that they do.

Like, I like the way they're set up.

It's just, I'm a little bit worried about the back court.

And again, if it's D'Angelo Russell as your starting point guard.

All right, that's more pressure on your front court at the rim having to defend properly because he's going to give up a lot of drives to the basket.

It's Clay's not the guy he used to be.

He's going to give up drives to the basket.

Like this is going to be one of those things where it puts pressure on your bigs to constantly erase mistakes over and over again and makes it difficult a little bit in the sense of having cohesion defensively.

And then the other thing, we just, we have to just kind of bring it up.

Like AD, like how much, how dependent can you be in terms of health with him in that situation?

It's something that you definitely have to be concerned.

It's not fair to say, to project, you know, you're going to get x amount of games from him and and things like that he might have a fully healthy year and then we'll talk about him differently but i think it's one of those things you got to be concerned about with them but if they can stay healthy they'd be they'd be interesting and they'd be a team that we would say excuse me they can stay afloat they're an interesting squad and once kyrie comes back because then you're opening your eyes because if kyrie comes back and can be kyrie irving again of what we've seen like

Like him and AD, I think, paired really well together.

And then you have an opportunity for Cooper to attack the second side which is going to be a little bit easier for the rook to to be able to kind of attack a team rotating to him versus a standstill situation where hey go make something happen i think we're looking at something where it's like all right there's a there's something here i just think we're still far away from that how do you how do you think he fits there date yeah i think it's a great uh fit in general i do like the scalabrini i know that scal kind of did a little bit too far he's like i think cooper flag will be a lebron james figure you know when it's all said and done in like three years you all will be saying thank thank you, Scal, for telling us.

Now, I'm not sure I'm going to go that far, but I do think that Cooper Flag has those tools to be a guy who is the guy.

You know what I mean?

Like talk about a guy that wants to be the franchise guy.

He has that mindset.

I had a coach tell me, an assistant coach, he was like, I kind of compare flag to like Anthony Davis with an alpha mentality.

You know what I mean?

Like that is what he is.

He wants to be the guy.

I think that's very encouraging if you're the Dallas Mavericks.

The thing that concerns me the most with the Mavericks is Sean Sweeney going to the Spurs.

The whole calling card of this team and and nico's whole mo is defense wins championships while the guy who runs the defense just left your team to go to the spurs and he was the defensive coordinator kid had basically turned all things over to sean so now sean is running the defense now he leaves what does the dallas defense look like without sweeney i'm fascinated to see that also you got kid talking to flag about creating uh you know giving him the ball let him dictate the offense i i find that fascinating like how much is kid going to give him the keys next year as almost like a trial period during this weird year where everybody's hurt just to get him the reps in for the next year?

I think that would be the fascinating storyline with this team.

But Cooper Flag is going to be good.

I really, I don't think that's going to be an issue at all.

And I think it's going to be fun to watch.

Whatever happens in the next two years,

Cooper Flag is the life raft that you needed after trading your previous life raft to the Lakers and leaving yourself exposed draft pick-wise.

That's what really matters here.

You know, we'll see what they are in the short term.

I think there's a very good team in here

somewhere.

I'm skeptical about, you know, championship contention, real threat to the Thunder.

And offensively, you know, you mentioned flag creating, and I'm just excited for everything that he can do.

And if you want to throw, if he is LeBron, I mean, if he is that, if Scal's right, LeBron was in the finals in like four or five years into his career with a

roster, right?

So

just if that's what he is, then the conversation is different.

I just, there are certain guys whose names I just don't think you should throw out in draft comps very often, and that's one.

And just offensively, like AD at the four is there's going, you know, people talk about chemistry and the time it takes.

And Luca and Kyrie have talked about how they needed that first year together, their first part of the year and their first camp together to really find their footing after they acquired Kyrie mid-season.

I think the same applies here.

Like AD at the four, again, not full-time, but 70% of the time, 60% of the time,

with a rim-running center and now a rookie and a point guard coming off an ACL tear, that's a lot.

That's a lot to deal with.

And we already saw AD on offense like taking a lot more mid-range jumpers,

spacing the floor isn't the right term because he doesn't space the floor and trying to pick his spots.

And like, that's a lot of work to do with the revamped coaching staff.

All right.

We covered a lot, and Desmond Bain is coming on now.

Mo DeKil,

thank you, sir.

Tate Frazier, One Shining Podcast.

It's great to see you and be your teammate.

We covered everything, I think, guys.

Thanks for coming on early in the morning, your time.

Oh, thank you, bro.

Anytime you need us.

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All right, let's welcome on a special guest, the newest member.

I guess you're not the newest member of the Orlando Magic anymore.

They have a newer member than you and Jace Richardson.

Desmond Bain, what's up, sir?

Appreciate you having me, man.

What's up?

How you doing?

Good, man.

Real real good how you doing i'm good you look like you're doing good you're gonna go for a swim later back there yeah it's hard to beat out here for sure hard to beat it um i heard you were at game seven of the nba finals is that true very true very true yeah it was crazy environment

uh and i know you are you have a good relationship with tyrese um what was it where were you sitting what was it like seeing that happen did you get to talk to him after the game at all i mean it's it's an all-time

i'm still not over it and i'm just just a guy who was a neutral observer of the game.

Yeah, I was, I was actually texting with him this morning,

just more so about life than

anything.

And yeah, it was, I mean, it was, it was hard to tell, like, cause when it's live, you know, it's, it's hard to pick up on the small nuances and things like that that's going on.

But, you know, once you saw him, you know, not getting up off the floor and the way the team and trainers and things like that were reacting, you could tell it was, it was something serious.

And I was just hoping, you know, for the best for him.

But, you know, he seems like he's in decent spirits.

And,

you know, I'm sure he's going to attack this rehab and

get back and be better.

What was it like to be in the building for game seven of the NBA Finals?

First game seven in nine years for the finals.

Yeah, it was it was crazy.

One of my friends that I took with me, he was, you know, like in the middle of the game, like basically saying, thank you for taking us.

And it's crazy how crazy we are to be here um and in that moment like it was hard for me to accept uh what he was talking about just because i i want to be there i want to be the one that you know my family and friends are coming to check out but but it was it was definitely a great experience and um something i hope to be a part of

you were i i listened to you with my friend tommy alter on young man in the three last week you were not totally shocked to be traded.

It sounds like the Grizzlies

kind of prepped you a little bit that the door was going to be open.

And what I had heard was in exit interviews with Zach Klein and the GM, he kind of told you and maybe some others for the first time, like, I can't sit here and say to your face, like, there's a 100% chance you're going to be on the team next year.

Is that about when it happened?

Yeah, that's that's exactly what happened.

I mean, it was, it was different exit interviews, you know, all the way around.

You know, I mean, we just got swept, um, you know, so that was a sour, sour note to go out on.

But then, you you know, the vibe around the building is coached, is Tomas going to be the coach?

Like you go into the exit interviews.

And like you said, Zach was upfront and honest with a few of us and told us, like, hey, look, there's a possibility.

I can't guarantee anything.

And,

you know, next thing you know, here I am.

And now you're.

a member of the Orlando Magic.

I've already talked about the trade.

I think the fit is awesome.

I love them just saying, you know what?

this is our guy we're going to throw four picks out and we're going to get this guy this is our guy how much time i think you're you're in florida right now right i'm i'm back in texas you're back in texas now

at the lake house i'll i'll be going down to orlando here in about 10 days um go start finding a place to live and and getting acclimated with the guys and stuff yeah have you spent any time in person with franz and paolo yet I haven't.

I haven't.

I think Franz is doing like some international stuff this summer.

And P, I think he's out in Seattle doing his thing.

We've texted both of us multiple times, but we'll have plenty of time to connect for sure.

And I assume you are excited about the fit.

I heard you joking with Tommy.

Like, yeah, we're like the three-point stats, we're going to change those real fast.

But like, you, you do fit right in.

And I think, you know.

For people who may not have watched the Grizz that closely over the last couple of years, when Jazz been out, you've taken a much bigger playmaking load and I think gotten comfortable in that kind of lead guard role.

And it's something that, like, you know, if Franz is on the bench or Paolo's on the bench, like you can lift up.

It's not, it's not like you're just running around shooting threes.

You can bring a lot to this team.

Are you pumped about the fit and what you guys can do in the East?

I don't think there could have been a much better fit.

I mean, you put me next to a guard like Jalen Suggs that plays both sides of the ball,

dynamic, plays with speed in open court,

really shown promise shooting the ball too over the past year or so.

Franz, obviously, like a do-it-all three,

better defender than a lot of people,

you know, know.

And, you know, you saw what he was doing in the playoffs against Boston and what he's capable of.

And obviously, Apollo is, you know, going to be a first-team all-NBA type guy,

you know, for probably multiple years in his career.

And Big Dell, Windell, I mean, just shooting five, strong, physical, switch one through five.

I think that it fits like a glove.

And like you said, like my skill set is something that I think that can really help take some pressure off of Franz and Paulo,

Suggs, and all the guys.

So I'm excited to get to work and go make something happen in the East.

I actually thought

given the injuries they had.

and the uphill battle they were facing that they played Boston pretty tough in the first round of the playoffs.

I don't know if you're obviously in your own first round series.

I don't know how much of that that you got to watch or like how much of Orlando you just like as a league pass junkie you've watched over the years, but like what if, how much did you get to watch that series at all?

Or have you gone back and watched it since being on the team?

Yeah, I watched it

as much as I could while it was going on.

And I mean, defensively, they're a nightmare.

I mean, they got size and mobility all over the floor.

And

you combine that with Paolo and Franz's ability to attack, you know, whether it's smaller guys, bigger guys.

It really

makes makes problems for a lot of teams.

And like you said, I mean, they weren't healthy.

So it's like they're still trying to gel.

And, you know, I'll be new.

So we're all going to try to gel and,

you know, find our niche and our groove.

They started out the season like four or five and one.

Paulo went for like 50 or whatever before he ended up hurting his oblique.

So I think that the talent's there, the pieces are there.

More importantly, the culture's there.

Great people across the board.

Like it starts starts with Jeff and Coach Moes, but I mean, the players that they have in the building, like I don't see any reason why we can't be making a deep run.

Why not?

You mentioned Jamal Mosley.

Moes,

you have deep ties to the state of Texas, including college.

You were the 30th pick in the draft in 2020.

A lot of buzz that the Dallas Mavericks were thinking about taking you, and they went a different direction, which I'm sure you have not forgotten.

Jamal Mosley was on that staff in Dallas.

Have you had this conversation yet with him?

I haven't, but now that you bring that up, that's something we're definitely going to have to talk about.

You still, you remember?

Do you remember all the teams that passed on you?

I do.

I remember.

I mean, that night, like it was just yesterday.

I mean, it was, it was cool.

It's always cool this time of year, seeing everybody else's dreams become reality and stuff like that.

But obviously, a big night for me and my family, for my career.

And yeah, I won't forget, but I'm super happy to be in Orlando.

And I think everything happens for a reason.

So Moz and I,

we found each other at the right time.

No, I'm not saying he had any role in that decision, but I'm saying you got to get, now you got the inside look at like, all right, what was going on in the draft room?

How did you guys pass?

I'm right in your backyard at TCU.

Like, how did this happen?

Yeah, I got a nice little talking point for sure, Woodem, for sure.

One of my favorite things about watching you play, and again, you were the 30th pick.

So it's not like you walk in and like, I'm the guy, the ball is going to be with me.

Like, but you play with such fearlessness.

Like, now you will take threes that there's only four or five guys in the league who will take contested, pull-up, like, hand-in-your-face kind of threes, and you make enough of them.

And I call you the Bane Train in transition because, like, you're like Josh Hart.

It's like one on three, one on two.

I'm just going full speed, and you can get in front of me.

And if you get in front of me, it's going to hurt you, and I'm going to finish.

But like, did you,

was it, was it,

what steps did you have to take to get to a place where you're like, I'm just going to play with zero fear, zero worry that anyone's going to maybe question this shot?

Like, I, I know my game and I know I can play this way.

And I don't care that I'm the 30th pick or that we have this star over here, this star.

Was it hard to get to that place?

Or is that just naturally how you play?

I think that's, that's how I came up.

You know, I mean, we played at this park called Clear Creek Park

in Richmond.

And I remember being a young guy that, that nobody would pick up.

And then, you know, you get your chance and,

you know, you got to fight for everything.

So like, I think it started, started there for sure.

And then my work has carried me since then.

I mean, going to TCU, like I didn't have any high major offers.

TCU was the only one that I had.

And I got that like two weeks before I graduated high school.

So quick turnaround, like, you know, all the things that are going through your head.

Should I just win mid-major?

Like, am I good enough to play high major um you know but but that fearlessness and that work is is what carried me there and um it worked for me there so so why change

you you you were late to get picked in these pickup games you were like a bottom one and i come from a town of 30 000 people you know so it's not like there's the best players, but it's just like, shoot, the old heads is on the court.

Like you got to pay your respects or whatnot and earn their respect.

You know what I'm saying?

Like when you get on the court, like

the only time they're going to pick you up next time we run is if you go out there and do something.

So,

you know, that's kind of how

all that went down.

We're going to get back to the magic in a second, but I would be remiss as an interviewer if I did not ask you.

You had an interesting few years in Memphis as a team

in some completely unusual, like unique to you guys' circumstances.

I just wonder what it's like from your perspective.

What is it like when that video footage of Ja in the club in Denver comes out and the other stuff, the other video footage comes out and you realize something's happening here.

What's up?

We got someone in the background.

Something's happening here.

And this guy might not be on our team for a while because there's going to be a penalty here.

And also like a human element of.

what's actually going on in this guy's life?

Do you reach out to him?

Do you talk to him?

And just like take me through the day when that, like the TMZ footage comes out and all this.

And you're like, oh my God, our life as a team is about to change.

Nah, I mean, Ja is

a great dude, first and foremost.

You know, whether we're at the house kicking it or we're out in the city doing something, like he's always the first one to invite everybody somewhere, the last one out of there, making sure everybody gets back where they need to go.

So he's a great teammate and great person.

And, you know, everybody makes mistakes.

Like, I've made plenty of mistakes and I just so happen not to to be you know somebody who others want to be the face of the league you know what i'm saying and um i think he's he's grown past it and um all my time that i had in memphis was was great and and i wouldn't change it if for anything you know i think it was uh you know great great experiences for me both on and off the court and um i'm excited for this next chapter in orlando It's interesting, despite the ups and downs and despite the fact that he was suspended for a while, like you guys all speak very, very highly of Ja as a teammate and a person.

Like that, that you never wavered on that.

For sure.

I mean, it's easy to look from outside, you know, and come up with your own opinions or

whatever it may be.

But when you get to know somebody, you know their heart,

it's no, it's no question in anything.

How much of a struggle with

the change in the offensive system last year was there for you guys?

Like going away from the pick and roll and all the movement that caught everybody by surprise at first.

Like, whoa, there's nothing like this in the NBA.

What's happening?

How hard was that?

I mean, I remember training camp vividly.

Like, I felt like one of my superpowers was just like randomness, like being able to run and kind of get away from defenders, create separation.

And Noah LaRoche, who was my player development coach, was like, hey,

we need you to...

to cut here.

We need you to feel behind here.

Like the only way this is going to work is if everybody's on the same page doing the same thing.

And we started out the season kind of sort sort of bought into it, sort of not bought into it.

I got hurt about four or five games in, and then probably by about game 10, we started catching our stride.

I was still out at the time, but I'm watching, you know, and I'm like, man, like, this is really working.

So whenever I came back, like, I was like, man, like, this is working.

I'm fully bought into it.

And like the first eight games or so, like, I was, I was struggling, you know, like wasn't, wasn't able really to find my pockets or, or whatnot, but we're winning by 40 points 50 points so I'm like man well this is like I'm fine like as long as this is what y'all expect of me like I'm I'm fine with it

you know and then I started catching my stride finding my pockets and had a maneuver in that offense and me and Noah grew a lot it started out a little rocky

you know but but we grew a lot I just talked to him the other day

you know so I so I think that it was a great experience for me like it showed me that regardless if I'm in Memphis, regardless if I'm in Orlando, regardless if I'm somewhere else under certain systems, like there are different ways to skin a cat and different ways for me to thrive.

So it gave me a lot of confidence as a player that, you know, you can drop me anywhere and I'll find a way.

Is there...

I know it's early.

You know, you haven't gotten to get to know the system and teammates and all that stuff quite yet in Orlando, but even separate from Orlando or maybe specific to it, is there any aspect of your game, like a small aspect on either end of the floor, offense, defense, where you are like, I'm dialed in on getting better at that little thing, particularly in this new context in Orlando?

Yeah, I think you kind of touched on it.

You know, I mean, Jalen obviously is going to be on the ball a lot, Apollo and Franz, but really being able to organize offense and be like an initiator for offense.

You know, I'm not sure, like I said, exactly what my role is going to be.

Like, I feel like I can bring the movement shooting, the spacing, secondary playmaking, and things like that.

But being able to initiate offense against pressure,

you know, you see the Indianas, you see the teams that are, that were still playing at the end.

Like, they apply a lot of pressure full court for the whole course of the game.

So it's like not only working on that skill, but your conditioning to be able to tolerate that for a full 48 minutes,

you know, for 20 games long of a playoff run is what's on my mind.

You bring up Indiana, and I'll let you go to a couple minutes, but it just jogged my memory.

Like, everyone around the league, I think I've talked to GMs and coaches and players is watching this, watch this playoff run from Indiana, which I think, even if you were a Pacers optimist, it was surprising how far they got and that they were one win from the NBA championship.

And thinking, like, what can we take from that?

Like, what should the lessons of that be?

So, when you watch the Pacers play, like, what did you take from it?

Togetherness,

they, they compete like crazy on both ends of the floor.

Like, they're going to make you work on offense.

They're going to make you work on defense.

And, I mean, I think there's not, not every team has a Tyrese Halliburton, you know, a superstar that's willing to, he gets criticized for it, but shoot six shots some games, shoot 15 shots other games.

Like that trickles down throughout the entire team.

Like, I mean, you have different guys on different nights whether it's Siakum, Obi Toppin, Miles Turner, Nimhart, Nish Smith, like that stuff's hard to replicate.

And like the only way that you have that is if you have an unselfish leader.

And

I think that they don't get enough credit for the type of people that they brought into the facility like that are okay with sometimes taking a back seat and being like, I'm happy for my other man's success.

You know, and they obviously have that competitive edge to them.

So I think it's easy, you know, every year after the finals to be like, man, like, I want to be like Indiana.

I want to be like OKC.

I want to be like Boston or Denver.

And it's like,

it's hard to do that.

Like, I think that you need to...

You can take small bits and pieces, you know, from what you see, but you can't lose sight of your own identity and who you are and what you've built.

So I think it's a little bit of a double-edged sword.

So you just said the I word and we'll end with this, identity.

And

I don't remember who it was, but someone was saying after the Magic traded for you, like, why can't Orlando be the next Pacers, the next team that makes a big leap that we didn't see necessarily coming this far?

And initially, I was like, well, they don't really play anything like the Pacers.

They don't have a Halliburton.

They're a different kind of team.

But what the Magic do have is an identity.

And the identity is.

defense, physicality, and toughness.

And like, we are going to be nasty to play against, and you are going to feel it.

And if you have to play us in the seven-game series, you are really going to feel it.

Is that, I mean, you only played them twice a year in the opposite conference, but is that like, can you lean even further into that?

Because it hurts to play against the magic, man.

It really hurts.

100.

I mean, 1,000%.

And I mean, I think that's what our front office has done a good job of doing.

Like, you, like, same way that we're talking about Tyrese Halliburton as a leader and like go-get unselfish guys, selfless guys, like the magic rounding out the roster with guys that are hard-nosed, tough, like to work.

Um, so I think it's like the front office understands what they want.

They have the players that fit the mold and the coach who can be the driving piece to all of it.

And that's why their identity is so strong.

And I'm super excited to be a part of a team like that.

You know, when I was in Memphis, like we have talks with Zebo and other people from the Gritten Grind era.

And,

you know, I love to create something like that in Orlando for sure, being known for our rugged, hard-nosed,

you know, basketball.

I like that.

The magic is the natural heirs to the grit and grind Grizzlies and you as a connective piece between the two.

Desmond Bain,

if people haven't watched the Grizzlies too much, they have no idea how good you are.

They're going to find out real soon because the Orlando Magic are going to win a lot of games next year.

Enjoy what's left of your offseason and thanks for making a little time, sir.

Thank you, brother.

I appreciate you.

All right, that's it for today's Zach Lowe show.

Thank you to Tate Frazier.

Thank you to Moa DeKiel for educating us all about the draft.

Thank you to Desmond Bain for popping on.

Thanks to Jesse, John, and Isaiah on production.

We will see you next week on Monday, barring something insane happening between now and then, which is the NBA.

You never know.

But if not, we'll see you Monday morning on the Zach Lowe Show.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for consuming however you do it.

We'll see you next week.

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