One Question for Each NBA Cup Team. Plus, Giannis Thoughts and All-Stars Picks With Tim Legler.

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Speaker 2 Coming up on the Zach Glow Show, it's Monday. A lot of stuff happened over the weekend in the NBA.
More Giannis noise. LeBron's double-digit streak is over.

Speaker 2 The NBA Cup is coming up this week as a lot of other teams get some rest time. Tim Legler from ESPN, you know him.
You love him. You love his iPad breakdowns.
He is here to help me preview.

Speaker 2 all four NBA Emirates Cup quarterfinals games one by one. Big questions facing each team.
We're going to talk Giannis. Yep.
We're going to talk Giannis.

Speaker 2 We're going to talk some other weekend developments. Jonathan Kaminga got benched.
The Bulls stink. Some other stuff happened over the weekend.
He's going to pick his all-star teams.

Speaker 2 I already picked my preliminary all-star teams. I flip-flopped one player already.
We're going to see where we came out there and just talk all things, NBA, lots of stuff going on.

Speaker 2 It's going to be a good show. Tim Legler is the best in the business.
Enjoy it. Coming up now.

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Speaker 1 Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Monday morning.
Tim Legler from ESPN is here, the best in the business. He's helping us out at the ringer slash Spotify this this year.
Legs, what's going on?

Speaker 2 I'm great, man. I'm great.

Speaker 2 It's that time of year, the holiday time of year for the NBA. And it's an interesting time for me, Zach, because we have a long chunk without me calling games.
So this is great.

Speaker 2 I get to make sure I'm staying dialed in by getting my work done with you. So I'm really looking forward to this.

Speaker 1 A lot of stuff happened over the weekend. We're going to get to as much of it as we can.
We had... LeBron James double-digit scoring streak ended in the most fitting possible way.

Speaker 1 Our guy, Jonathan Kaminga, got benched. It's looking like it's over in Golden State.
The La Crosse Brothers, the Lacks Bros are taking over the NBA, the Spencer Brothers in Golden State and Memphis.

Speaker 1 The Bulls stink, and there's more Gianna's stuff. But we're going to start.
It's NBA Cup week. The quarterfinals are this week.
We're going to look at every game.

Speaker 1 And I decided the best way to do it was pick a big question or a big issue or a big statement, one for each team. Go game by game.
We're going to start with Orlando, Toronto.

Speaker 1 You got your pick of teams in all the games. You picked Toronto.
We have to, unfortunately, lead with Orlando. We don't know the MRI results for Franz Wagner.

Speaker 1 We will probably know, I'm guessing, at the end of today, it looked bad. And

Speaker 1 if it is bad, if it's bad, bad, like if he's out for the season, I think a team that could have made the finals potentially, given how wide open the East is, can no longer make the finals.

Speaker 1 That said, well-documented legs. Orlando thrived when Bancaro was out, kind of trended a little smaller.

Speaker 1 A lot of three-guard lineups with Franz at the four, whipped the ball around, more touches, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 Bancaro came back for like a game and a quarter with Wagner and looked kind of like he had watched what had happened and was almost overly deferential at times.

Speaker 1 Franz ran all the offense in crunch time in their Friday game against Miami.

Speaker 1 Palo seemed to be paying more attention to like spacing where to stand, when to dart in to the paint, when to set screens and all that.

Speaker 1 And you just got this vision of like, all right, maybe it'll all come together.

Speaker 1 And just this franchise, the last two years, so snakebitten with these two guys getting hurt, sometimes at the same time, sometimes at different times. I guess my question would be.

Speaker 1 Look, Franz is, it will be a miracle if he doesn't miss a significant amount of time. And that's how it looked.
Let's assume he misses a significant amount of time for the sake of discussion.

Speaker 1 What are we going to learn from this?

Speaker 1 Can they duplicate the way way they played when Bancaro was out with Bancaro in and Wagner out?

Speaker 1 Are we going to get to the end of this and say maybe they're actually better off with one and not both?

Speaker 1 Or is this going to look different because Bancaro is a different player than Franz Wagner, a guy who tends to hold it a little bit longer, take more long twos? Like, how is this going to work, Legs?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's listen. I think what we're going to find out, what we're going to have to find out, is: is Paolo Bancaro a franchise-carrying winning player?

Speaker 2 Because, you know, the guy's got immense talent, really difficult matchup because of his combination of power and shooting ability and scoring, but he's definitely a different type of player than Franz Wagner.

Speaker 2 Franz Wagner is a guy that's like a lot more decisive with the ball. He's a better playmaker.
He's got better vision. Bancaro, better raw scorer, but Wagner's pretty damn good there as well.

Speaker 2 So they hum along when Bancaro was out.

Speaker 2 They had an interesting year because last year, Zach, I had as much admiration for that team, of the teams I saw in called games last year, as any team in the league besides probably Oklahoma City because

Speaker 2 of how hard this team played. I'm like, that guy, Jamal Mosley, is connected to this team because they will run through a wall to defend for him.
They were top five in defense last year.

Speaker 2 They had both of those guys miss long periods of time with oblique injuries. It was really weird, like back-to-back oblique injuries.
So they went a long time without playing together.

Speaker 2 They missed Suggs for the last two, three months of the season.

Speaker 2 They're starting point guard and one of the best all-ball defenders. And yet, here they were at the end of the year, like still there, head above water, like in the mix in the east.

Speaker 2 So I had a lot of high expectations for them. Again, with what happened with Boston and Indiana, you just alluded to it, a wide open east.

Speaker 2 I'm looking at Detroit, Orlando, Knicks, Cavs coming into the season. Like those are the four teams I wanted to see.
And Orlando is really slow out of the gate.

Speaker 2 Desmond Bain was like not really in the flow. He wasn't having the impact I thought he would.
And

Speaker 2 they weren't as good defensively. And you're kind of wondering, like, what am I looking at? Now, I didn't, I didn't, some people, they kind of bailed on the Orlando magic.

Speaker 2 Oh, and because Pancaro is not what I thought he was, and they're not as good as I thought. I wasn't ready to do that.
So you got to give Bain time.

Speaker 2 You've got to be fully healthy. Their defense will come around.
All those things started happening. They win 10 out of 14.
They're climbing the rungs in the ladder in the east. And here they come.

Speaker 2 And they're like, okay, this is going to be a formidable team. And now this.

Speaker 2 So now you go back to one star carrying your offense. The defense looks like it's righted itself.
Now Bancaro's got something he didn't have last year when Wagner was out.

Speaker 2 Desmond Bain, who has been hitting his stride. So I think we're going to learn an awful lot about Paolo Bancaro for however long Wagner's out.
And we haven't gotten word yet.

Speaker 2 I mean, do you think it's possible based on what you saw? Like, are we going to get this? You know, is it an ACL?

Speaker 1 Are we going to get Wagner's out for the year?

Speaker 1 I'm going to wait for the MRI results. You just, you know, sometimes you take these hard falls, and it turns out there's no ligament damage.
It's a strain, or who knows?

Speaker 1 I'm like, obviously, we all have our fingers crossed because I think Franz Wagner was a lock all-star playing the best ball of his career all-around.

Speaker 1 Even the three, which was such an issue last year with the hitch and everything, he's up to 36%. He's taking the ones he should take.
He looked absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 1 Bancaro, the magic had been bad the last two seasons when he's on the court and Franz is off the court. To your point about Bain,

Speaker 1 I'm not wiping all those numbers away because it's a pretty substantial sample size.

Speaker 1 I'm pushing them to the side because so few of them involve Bain, healthy Suggs, and now Anthony Black, who's leveled up.

Speaker 1 And if you look at the, like, just the stat to keep an eye on, those three guards together, Bain, Suggs, and Black, have only played 53 minutes the entire season together.

Speaker 1 They are plus 54 in 53 minutes. That's like outrageous.

Speaker 1 The Bane, Black, Tyus Jones trio is plus 26 in 102 minutes. The Magic have found something with three guards, plus one of the power forwards, plus a center.

Speaker 1 And I'm interested to see how Ban Carroll kind of fits into that. If he can play with a little more zip, set screens, roll to the basket.

Speaker 1 He had a play in that Knicks game when Wagner was on the floor, where he set a screen, slipped it, slipped ahead of the switch, caught the pocket pass, drew the help, kicked to Wagner, who I think pump faked and then tried to dunk on a closeout.

Speaker 1 That's the kind of zip he's going to have to play with. And I think he can do it.

Speaker 1 You know, then you throw DeSilva in there. I think the young guards will get a chance.
Jed Howard and Jason Richardson have gotten chances here and there.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm interested to see if he can sort of wipe away those like Wagner off the court, Bancaro, on the court numbers.

Speaker 1 It's just a shame because I think even if it goes great, if Wagner's out for for the season, and again, it's if, we don't know, we're all hoping for like a the miracle he's out for a month with a strained whatever.

Speaker 1 I do think this team had finals upside. And no matter how well this goes, I don't think that's the case.

Speaker 1 You know, even with the East this open, with one of these two guys out for a prolonged period of time.

Speaker 1 I do have one more important question about the magic for you.

Speaker 1 Did you see the Desmond Bain dodgeball play yesterday when he chucked the ball at OG and Anobi?

Speaker 2 I did not. No, I didn't see it.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, you got to watch this play. He gets the ball under the basket and he's

Speaker 2 no, I did on a highlight, on a highlight. I didn't see it live.
I did see that highlight last night. Yes, that's, I mean, my goodness, man.
Did he have to crank it up to that extent and drill him?

Speaker 2 That, that's, listen, man,

Speaker 2 it may be a different era because that's a fight.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that.
Like, he was perfectly on balance. He just could have taken the ball and turned up court.
I've never seen anything like that.

Speaker 2 No, I've never seen anybody throw a ball with that level of velocity, with that level of intent at somebody in that exact type of situation. There's no need for that whatsoever.

Speaker 2 Like I said, that's typically the kind of thing that's going to lead to a fight.

Speaker 2 You know, and OG took exception to it, but he didn't get nearly as heated as I would think a lot of guys would have in that same circumstance. And Bain is a guy that

Speaker 2 he does get under guys' skin. He finds himself in the mix of some of these,

Speaker 2 you know, confrontations with guys fairly often. And so that was, to me, maybe one of the most blatant things that he's done.
And he got away with it for all intents and purposes. He got away with it.

Speaker 2 But there's a lot of guys I don't think he would have gotten away with it.

Speaker 1 I just thought, like, I was laughing when it happened. I was like, God, that was a hurt.
He chucked that ball at him. Like, I wouldn't have, that was, that was a fastball.

Speaker 1 Okay, you had Toronto in this game.

Speaker 1 What was your one big issue question for the Raptors, who have lost five of their last six, including two to Charlotte and yesterday to Boston, who is emerging as maybe the feel-good story of the entire season, the way they're playing, the way Jalen Brown is playing, and Joe Missoula emerging as a coach of the year candidate slash favorite.

Speaker 1 But Toronto hosts this game in the NBA Cup. Knicks are going up north.
What was your big question, whatever, for the Raptors?

Speaker 2 Listen, they were a great story to start start the year. They certainly surpassed my expectations in terms of where I had them, my barometer on them going into the season.

Speaker 2 A lot of people in Toronto let me know that when they got off to that hot start, and that's fine. You know, it's an 82-game season, so you kind of got to see how it plays out.
Now they're done.

Speaker 1 It's generally unwise to take your victory laps or give your concession speeches in Bill Simmons' case where he was like, I guess Perk was right. This is a top six team.
I was wrong. I'm taking the L.

Speaker 1 It's 82 games, fan. Don't concession.

Speaker 2 Man, you got to wait and you got to get. And here's especially why.

Speaker 2 and it relates directly to the question i have about them particularly with this group one thing that they added this year and it was a huge addition because i just never really loved their their talent offensively i thought they had some some inconsistent guys Scotty Barnes, as much as I love his all-around game, he's not a guy that is going to really beat you with his scoring.

Speaker 2 R.J. Barrett, sort of up and down quickly, the same thing.
These are the guys they're counting on. Well, they went out and they added a guy that flat out can just get his in the mid-range, right?

Speaker 2 And Brandon Ingram. And he comes in the season, he's healthy.
He's given them a dimension to their offense that has been pretty significant. And their defense has been really solid.

Speaker 2 But here's my question. Is Brandon Ingram going to be upright all year? And is he going to be upright, you know, for even an extended period of time now? Because you look up his career.

Speaker 2 You realize he's only played more than 60 games four times. He's only played 65 once, and that was his rookie year.

Speaker 2 And so you don't wish anything on anybody, but at the same time, you got to be realistic about it.

Speaker 2 Just his track record says at some point, something's going to happen, and he's going to miss a significant period of time.

Speaker 2 And if that happens, you go back to this offense that I think is inefficient with guys that are inefficient a lot of nights.

Speaker 2 Brandon Ingram gave them that dimension of there's an answer like in the last six seconds of a shot clock because he could just put it on the deck at 611 stop rise up shoot that little lean back mid-range and and when he gets cooking you can't really do much with that that it added something to their offense they really needed so that's my question

Speaker 2 like they're they're a they're a pretty good team i've enjoyed watching them this year are you counting on brandon ingram for 60 plus 65 plus 70 plus games i it just his track record says that's not going to happen so where does that leave Toronto ultimately?

Speaker 2 And obviously, they're not playing very well going into this cup game.

Speaker 1 In all my focus on the magic and Frogs Wagner, I forgot to talk about Miami, who's actually playing the Magic in that game. We will get back to that later.

Speaker 1 Toronto is currently 14th in offense, 8th in defense overall.

Speaker 1 In that stretch where they've lost five of six, they are 23rd on both ends of the floor. So they've fallen apart on both ends.
A lot of it is they're not getting to the line right now on offense.

Speaker 1 The turnover equation has flipped on them. They're a team that's built to play like frenzied, force a lot of turnovers, and on offense, take care of the ball.

Speaker 1 They haven't been doing that, and their rebounding has fallen apart. Basically, everything's gone bad.
Those two losses to Charlotte, by the way, those are biggies.

Speaker 1 Like they could be 17 and eight right now if they win those two games with a little bit more of a cushion.

Speaker 1 And they got games coming up against the Knicks, the Celtics, the Heat, the Nuggets, the Warriors, the Magic, like some pretty big, some pretty big games. You know, look, this is all gravy for them.

Speaker 1 They've played higher than expectations. The shooting guards have been up and down, this sort of shooting guard brigade they have where it's like one guy's on, one guy's off.

Speaker 1 It's all, you know, they've been good so far. Scotty Barnes has been great.
Just a little bit of a tough stretch that was going to come for them.

Speaker 1 All right. I had the Knicks as my team here.
My big question for you is they're now back to the starting five from last year. With Josh Hart in, Mitchell Robinson is now coming off the bench.

Speaker 1 Is that the right move for the New York Knicks?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I like it better.

Speaker 2 I just said it's, it's, I think it's what you're seeing, the results of that. I do like that better.

Speaker 2 I think that gives them a little bit more versatility defensively than trying to play two bigs against a lot of teams that space you out.

Speaker 2 It's just harder. Mitchell Robinson, you know, look, he's going to get his opportunities on the offensive glass, but his minutes are never really that high.

Speaker 2 He could do a decent job jumping out of switching on guards better than Kat.

Speaker 2 But I think when you talk about having this guard teams that are spacing you out, Josh Hart's going to give you more versatility.

Speaker 2 He's also going to give you that added dimension of being able to get the throw ahead in the open court or take it off the defensive backboard as one of the best rebounding guys

Speaker 2 his size in the league and be able to create an early push and a surge up the floor offensively that they need. So I just think the pieces fit better and you can then pick.

Speaker 2 and choose a little bit more when you want to put Mitchell Robinson on the floor and allow him to take advantage of certain matchups or lineups that teams are playing and make it a little bit easier if you want to play two bigs together.

Speaker 2 If you're guarding a team, maybe that's got two bigs and doesn't have as much three-point shooting on the floor. I think it fits better.
I think it makes more sense.

Speaker 2 And Knicks are playing pretty well right now, one seven out of eight.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Hart has played so well and shot the three so well, 38%, that he's kind of made it a mood point. Obviously, the other guys are going to have to start.

Speaker 1 And Mikael Bridges, like, look, he's not attacking the rim like a bulldozer or anything, but he's actually playing as if he knows that getting to the rim is a good thing, like the basket is a good thing.

Speaker 1 Knicks fans got a little cold on this starting five last year.

Speaker 1 It was good, but not great in the regular season, plus about three points per 100 possessions, plus 76 total points in almost 1,000 minutes. And then in the playoffs, it got drilled.

Speaker 1 Minus 31 in 300 plus minutes. And that's where the narrative sort of ended with like, I guess this isn't a great fit.
And I never bought that because I like all these players. I like them together.

Speaker 1 They obviously changed their team dramatically right before training camp. Then guys got injured.
They only got like 48 games with everybody together.

Speaker 1 And so far this season, they're plus 39 in 47 minutes. Tiny sample size.

Speaker 1 I like it better. My questions are, my follow-ups would be, they still need, I think, to get a requisite number of Robinson cat minutes.
I think they're very good with that duo on the floor.

Speaker 1 And it can't become like sometimes it doesn't play at all. Sometimes it just plays two minutes.

Speaker 1 And then my big hoops question for you is, if you are going all in with this and you're taking your best rim defender and making him a, let's say, 18 minute a game reserve, can you defend well enough with Brunson and Towns on the floor to win the Eastern Conference?

Speaker 1 And this goes, like, I don't know if you saw Max Kellerman, his big debut appearance on Bills Pod said, well, the Knicks are just never going to win the championship when their best player.

Speaker 1 is six feet tall in Galen Brunson. I'd be interested to see your thoughts on that and just sort of the general, how how do you cobble enough of a defense with these two guys up the middle?

Speaker 2 It's tough. I mean, and this was their biggest Achilles last year.
This was something that teams are going to attack. They're going to put those guys in ball screen.

Speaker 2 And I think what the change over and in the coaching change they made, I think they were, and look, they had a very good offense last year, but I think that they were really hoping to be able to

Speaker 2 shore up their offense to such an extent that they could overcome some of that so that the trade-off was a winning trade-off every night where you were getting more because they were harder to guard offensively.

Speaker 2 They could be so good that you could now overcome some of the defensive issues you have, particularly when you put Brunson and Kat directly in ball screen.

Speaker 2 And you just saw what teams were able to do to them last year by utilizing very simple action and daring them to figure out a way to try to defend that. And so, yeah, it's an issue.
It's an issue.

Speaker 2 And it's just, it is because of who those guys are and the way that, you know, you can approach attacking them. And then it's different areas of the floor that you could put those two guys in.

Speaker 2 I think right now their offense looks like it might be enough, particularly in the East this year, Zach.

Speaker 2 When you look at like who's coming out of the East, the Knicks, I've said this from the very beginning of the year. If they don't do it this year, when the hell are they going to do it?

Speaker 2 And I mean, get to the finals. When you look at the path, it's like looking through a path through the floor and a lot of these trees have been cleared out of your way.

Speaker 2 And now it's right there for the taking. Now, look, Detroit has gotten off to this incredible start, but Detroit is still a very young team.
They were a first round loss a year ago.

Speaker 2 Do you make that leap in one year from losing in the first round to the NBA finals? I think that's where teams like New York look at it and say, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 It's us this year because we're ready to do it.

Speaker 2 I think their offense might be good enough to overcome some of the defensive issues.

Speaker 2 And I don't think there's enough in their way where you look at and go, wow, yeah, it's going to be tough for them to get to the finals this year.

Speaker 2 I almost feel like they have to look at this as if we don't get there, it's a failed year based on what the Eastern Conference looks like right now.

Speaker 2 And they may, who knows, depending on the Wagner news, maybe that's another team that's going to be kind of like dealing with something all year, depending on what news we get out of that.

Speaker 2 So it's there for the Knicks. I think their offense is

Speaker 2 really difficult to defend.

Speaker 2 And I think that defensive issue exists, but I also don't think it's enough to look at it and say that's going to hold them back and keep them from getting to the NBA finals this year.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I don't even know what the right answer is, right? Because they're not going to play zone.

Speaker 1 That's not a Mike Brown thing.

Speaker 1 I think Kat is actually like Kat in a drop coverage to me is just chum for sharks. Like he just is not.

Speaker 1 But I also don't like, I like it better when he switches. or when he blitzes even.
But in this lineup, when he does that, everything behind him is pretty small.

Speaker 1 Like Andanobi is big for a wing and can protect the rim. Hart is like for a 6'4 guy, offers some rim protection, bridges, whatever.

Speaker 1 It gets pretty small behind him, but I like it better when he's more active on defense. And they've just sometimes they'll mix those kinds of things in.

Speaker 1 And with Robinson on the floor on the back line, if you drag Cat in, then I'm all in for an aggressive coverage.

Speaker 1 But and so they've, when he does drop, their bet is obviously with these three big wings sort of on the side, coming in for help and then flying out at shooters, they can protect the paint, contest threes, even though they're giving up a ton of threes.

Speaker 1 We'll see. I picked the Knicks to make the finals before the season.
I'm picking them to make the finals now. What did you think of the Kellerman?

Speaker 1 Like just no, never, can never win with the six-foot best player?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, look, to his point, historically, that's just tough to do for any team, not just the Knicks. It's really difficult.

Speaker 2 If your best player and your leading scorer is as big as Jalen Brunson, it's just, just look at it. It's really difficult to pull off.

Speaker 2 And some of the smaller guards that have been able to do that, get to the finals or win a title, they had great balance across the board offensively on those teams

Speaker 2 in terms of winning it all. So, and it's only been

Speaker 2 a few guys ever. So, I mean, to me, that statement just kind of encompasses all of basketball at the NBA level.
It's very difficult to pull that off.

Speaker 2 Here's the bottom line, Zach, with the league. I don't care who comes out of the East.

Speaker 2 it's going to be a very difficult thing to beat whoever comes out of the west and i think we know who that's going to be i mean i don't know how much more oklahoma city would have to do to convince anybody that like they're going back to the finals they're most likely going to be repeat champions and so look no matter what happens whoever gets there that's going to be a tough thing to overcome just getting to the finals obviously would be something that everybody in new york would wrap their arms around because they haven't been able to do that either either in a very, very long time.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, though, whoever it is that represents the Eastern Conference,

Speaker 2 that's what is waiting for you at the end of the road. It's going to be a very, very difficult uphill battle regardless.

Speaker 2 So, you know, to say that like the Knicks can't win because of Brunson, he's too small and teams with small guards shooting that much aren't going to win a championship.

Speaker 2 I mean, really, if Brunson was 6'8, I don't know that they're winning a championship against that team anyway, if they face the Thunder in the finals.

Speaker 1 Look, Look, Max is a great debater. He referred to himself as Muhammad Kellerman last week.

Speaker 1 And he is a great debater. He's incredibly smart and very quick on his feet.

Speaker 1 And he's a great debater, and he knows that this is a great rhetorical advice because it's so wildly unlikely that any team wins an NBA championship that it's, of course, it's like the Knicks are very unlikely to win an NBA championship.

Speaker 1 So as a result, he's going to be proven right because you're reverse engineering the reasoning. I just don't buy any absolutist reasoning like that.
Number one, what are they supposed to do?

Speaker 1 Go out and buy a 6'8 superstar wing at the wing superstar grocery store? There's no such thing. This is their team.
They have to do it. And I remember arguing with Max about Steph Curry.

Speaker 1 Now, this was after the Warriors had won at least two titles at that point.

Speaker 1 And he was saying that, you know, Steph, he thought, was a little overrated because basketball self-selects, a phrase that he repeated in the Simmons podcast for height because it's a 10-foot basket.

Speaker 1 And I just said, look, I get that, but what this guy does with his gravity is so unique and special and the openings it creates for everybody else that he's compensated.

Speaker 1 He's almost like a bigger player in the level of help that he's able to draw. And Jalen Brunson is not Steph Curry, but he's a very special one-on-one isolation player that I just don't like.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course, would he be better off if it was 6'6 ⁇ ? Sure. I don't think any of these absolutes apply.
It just depends so much on what the context of your team is.

Speaker 1 And they've bet that with these wings and with Kat as like a co-star, that they can do it. To your point, they're going to face somebody out of the West who's better than they are, whoever wins these.

Speaker 1 Let's go back to the second East Playing game because I forgot to talk about Miami, which was my team.

Speaker 1 My big question for you, Tim Wegler, about the Miami Heat, who are playing Orlando in the quarterfinals, the Battle of Florida, is: can the Bam Autobio Kalelware duo really work?

Speaker 1 And by that, I mean sometimes they start, sometimes they don't. Regardless, can it be a 15 to 20, 25 minute a game look this season, next season, and beyond for the Miami Heat?

Speaker 2 Well, I think it can. I think it's already, they're already proving that.
And one of the reasons I say it can is because of how much faith I have in their head coach.

Speaker 2 And this team has really, really surprised me.

Speaker 2 I called them boring going into the season. They just, they were like, okay, they're the Heat.
I have so much respect for Spoltzer. You know, they're going to play hard.
They're going to compete.

Speaker 2 I just didn't, I just don't love watching them. I didn't love their roster.
They added Norman Powell. And I talked to Eric Spoltzer in Chicago in September for like the coaches' meetings.

Speaker 2 And I sat down with all these coaches and she talks about their team and just got into some film work with these guys. What he said flat out was, we just finished the season.

Speaker 2 We said, absolutely, no matter what, we've got to add offense. We don't have enough offense to win in the NBA.

Speaker 2 They went out and they added Norman Powell, who's given them even more than he was giving you a year ago with the Clippers, which I thought was like basically his ceiling.

Speaker 2 He's 24 points a game, and he has given them that pop. And they've done a lot of what they've done to start the year without Tyler Hero.

Speaker 2 And I've been unbelievably impressed with the way they have completely transformed what they look like offensively: how fast they play, how early they shoot,

Speaker 2 how easy it is for them to put together huge quarters.

Speaker 2 You know, for Miami to get to a 30-point quarter a year ago, you just felt like, wow, what a quarter they just had. Now, like, they could put together four of those in the same game.

Speaker 2 That was never the case in recent memory with this team.

Speaker 2 And so, I've been unbelievably impressed with what they have done to change my opinion about what they look like, their style, how entertaining they are, the numbers they're putting up is hard to guard.

Speaker 2 Eric Spross is the right guy to push the right buttons with lineups, rotations, with changing defenses, with the right calls at the right time in late game situations when he utilizes timeouts, like he does the right challenges at the right time.

Speaker 2 Eric Spross is the right guy to navigate this roster.

Speaker 2 So if there is a situation where they've got Khalil Ware Bab out of bio, some nights it might not look like it's going to work, a little bit clunky.

Speaker 2 I trust Eric Spolzer to be able to push the right button at the right time of when those two guys are going to be on the court and be productive based on the opponent, based on the individual matchup and the rotation in that game.

Speaker 1 So far, the results are checkered.

Speaker 1 They are minus 30 in 123 minutes this season with Bam and Kalel on the floor.

Speaker 1 105 offensive rating, 118 defense rating. A lot of that can be explained.
Some of that, some of that can be explained by three-point shooting both ends.

Speaker 1 Miami not making theirs, opponents making theirs. Last year, though, they were plus 44 in 500 plus minutes, 113 offensive rating, still not great, 108.5 defensive rating.

Speaker 1 And for this to work, they have to be fearsome defensively. Like all that size, all that rebounding.
Ware has made a big leap defensively. He still has a ways to go.

Speaker 1 The answer to this one is TBD for me.

Speaker 1 The numbers would make you pessimistic.

Speaker 1 The eye test and Bam's versatility on defense and just the sort of primacy of skilled size in the NBA right now would make me want to do everything possible to make this work.

Speaker 1 And I do think both of them can shoot it well enough. Bam can drive it well enough.
Although at the four,

Speaker 1 he doesn't have the speed advantage and this drive and kick offense the way he does at the five. I think that's a little bit of an issue.

Speaker 1 But like people have asked, well, how does Khalil Ware fit into this just attack, attack, attack offense? He's not an off the dribble guy. Number one, his three is pretty good.
And number two,

Speaker 1 what a target for dump off passes when you get into the lane, like just throw the lob, bounce it to him in the paint, whatever. So I remain kind of cautiously optimistic.

Speaker 1 It does, like, as you talk about their offense, it is interesting. Remember the night, this is your era.
Remember the Mike Fratello 1990s Cavs

Speaker 1 who tricked people into thinking they had the best defense in the NBA, but really they were just playing it like a snail's pace.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 The Heat are like the opposite of that, where they have tricked people into thinking they have an elite offense because they score so many points, which is really the result of their pace.

Speaker 1 They're 13th in offense, which is very good coming from where they were. But I think people are talking about them like they're a top five or six offense, and they're just not.

Speaker 1 They're a good, but that's that is fantastic given where they were last year, how much time Hero has missed, and he's hurt again. I don't know for how long, how much time Powell has even missed.

Speaker 1 Like, they could be a 10-11 kind of offense with their defense. That's a plus.

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Speaker 1 All right, you ready to move west? Yep. Do it.
Let's start with Spurs Lakers. You had San Antonio as your team, so kick it off.

Speaker 2 Well, I think for me, it's, you know, obviously Wemby's out right now. He's, he's, it's imminent.
His return, it looks like it's going to be potentially even, I guess, their next game.

Speaker 2 Had a full practice. So it looks like he's about ready to ramp it up again.
And so I guess

Speaker 2 I'm really impressed with this collection of young guards that they have. Like, Fox

Speaker 2 does what he's been doing in this league for a while. I love Stephon Castle.
I love his toughness. I love his defense.
He's taken his offense up a notch.

Speaker 2 Dylan Harper is going to be a star in in this league. He gets to the rim so easy.
He's got like real man strength right now when he drives the ball to the rim. So they've got this just

Speaker 2 wealth at the guard spot. They've got these wings that can score.
Even on nights, they get limited touches. They find a way to get it done.
And then, of course, you've got Wemby. My question is:

Speaker 2 do you think he's, how ready is he to really be a guy that in a seven-game series and beyond, multiple seven-game series,

Speaker 2 is he ready now physically to be able to play the game he wants to play and play to his strengths enough to be able to get through some, you know, a round or two in the Western Conference.

Speaker 2 You know, we look at him some nights, obviously, in the start he had to the season, we were all kind of like just absolutely blown away at what we were watching.

Speaker 2 It just didn't look like anything we'd ever seen. But then he's got some nights still, and I called one of these games where you can get into him a little bit.

Speaker 2 And if they're not putting him in positions where he catches it in advantageous positions on the court, you can muscle him a little bit and get up under him when he drives.

Speaker 2 And he'll take some off-balance runners that are definitely kind of bailing you out defensively. So there's still enough of that in there, Zach, that I go, you know what?

Speaker 2 Look, he's so young, but he's so incredible some nights that we think, okay, he's ready and it's ready now. And that's my question.
How close is he?

Speaker 2 When will it happen where Wemby is playing so dominantly every night to his strengths and not doing the things that you want him to do defensively?

Speaker 2 Because some of those things get, you know, it's a wrestling match sometimes.

Speaker 2 He's going to lose some of those and he ends up bailing you out by taking this shot because he's 7'5 and can shoot it over the top of anybody rather than the nights when he plays a little bit stronger through contact and he's a little bit more like what he wants to get and he looks unstoppable.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
I don't think it's this year. Will it be next year? Will it be the year after?

Speaker 2 Maybe some of that's going to be tied to the emergence of some of these young guards I talked about, too.

Speaker 1 What a spot the Spurs are in right now, to your point, because they are one of the teams that has the goods to trade for Giannis and

Speaker 1 the sort of present-day roster that you would look and say, all right, if we have Fox and Wembanyama and Giannis and whatever else is left over, we could actually make a run at it now, which is if you're going to trade for Giannis, you have to make a run at it now.

Speaker 1 You have to be able to make a run at it immediately. On the other hand, they're already really good, 15 and 7.
And to your point about Wemby and sort of what does this all look like.

Speaker 1 I think they're now eight and three since Wembanyama got injured.

Speaker 1 And it's exactly unfolding in the way you would think if you had mapped out an optimistic result for the Spurs of that Wembanyama, it would be, well, Fox is healthy. Offense goes up a little bit.

Speaker 1 Defense suffers a lot, but the offense overcomes it. That's exactly what's happened.

Speaker 1 With Wembanyama on the floor, 114 offensive rating, 105 defensive rating, plus nine monster number, exactly the way you'd expect. Wemby off the floor, offense jumps to 118, defense jumps to 117.

Speaker 1 And then you think he's still only played eight games with De'Aaron Fox, I think. Maybe nine.
I don't know. It's like eight or nine games, nine games.

Speaker 1 Is there a world in which they combine all of this together? The offensive verve they've found without Wembanyama and Fox getting healthy and integrating himself into the crunch time offense.

Speaker 1 Harper, now Castle's also been hurt. You know, Harper's now back.

Speaker 1 With

Speaker 1 Wembanyama's defensive presence, this could be a pretty goddamn good team right now.

Speaker 1 I just don't think

Speaker 1 the juggernauts in front of them, Oklahoma City, Denver, Houston, I just don't see any world in which the Spurs' present-day single-season ceiling is high enough to beat any of those teams in a playoff series.

Speaker 1 I mean, you could talk me into maybe Houston, again, assuming everyone's fully healthy, but, you know, beyond that, I don't see it. But there is something interesting percolating here.

Speaker 1 And it's interesting enough that the Giannis question, I really don't know what you want to just do the Giannis thing now.

Speaker 1 I asked you to just give me, to set aside the contractual realities, which are

Speaker 1 he's eligible for a contractor extension after the season. I don't think he can actually sign it until October, which is, which is an interesting, I checked with some union people on this.

Speaker 1 It's an interesting. sort of nugget in this.
And

Speaker 1 any team that's going to give up the goods for him is going to want to know ahead of time, is he going to sign the extension or not, which allows him to put his thumb on the scale a little bit and if he really wants the Knicks or he really wants whatever to try to direct himself his way there.

Speaker 1 I wanted you to set aside all of that and just say, what is Tim Legler's dream basketball fit, if not Milwaukee, right?

Speaker 1 And he repeated his thing to Chris Haynes on Amazon, my Amazon Prime teammate, that he wants to run through a wall. He sees the wall.
He wants to run through it.

Speaker 1 Maybe this is just another false start to all this. But if it isn't a false start, what's your dream fit?

Speaker 2 I'm gonna give I'm gonna give one from each conference.

Speaker 2 Um, because I had one team, and I was like, For me, the Knicks are the team that, you know, and that's the team that he has said, you know, it's been reported that that's the place he would go if it wasn't Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 You look at a franchise like that in that kind of market with the electricity around that team right now that's been created since Shalen Brunson has turned into what he's turned into, right?

Speaker 2 It's back, like that environment, that energy, and this organization that hasn't won in 50 years.

Speaker 2 And Giannis, like the ultimate challenge to go there, to see him paired up with Brunson and like what that would look like,

Speaker 2 that would be, was the team that immediately jumped to my mind.

Speaker 2 But then I started thinking about Houston and I started thinking about that's another team that potentially could have what it takes to get Giannis. And when you went out and acquired Kevin Durant.

Speaker 2 for the Houston Rockets, you didn't do that with some timeline on the horizon.

Speaker 2 That's like, no, man, like every single year, this year, next year, however long Kevin Durant stays healthy and plays, you got to try to win it. And you've got Oklahoma City in front of you.

Speaker 2 And that looks like maybe that's something that's not going to happen. As good as Houston is and Denver, like Oklahoma City looks like it's almost a foregone conclusion.

Speaker 2 So you've got to figure out something else. That would be the ultimate for the Houston Rockets to pair him with Kevin Durant and to look at that situation and what Giannis could bring.

Speaker 2 And would that be enough physically to go up and be able to take on a team as good defensively as Oklahoma City? So, those would be the two places I think that would be the most interesting.

Speaker 2 There are some other fun ones that you would like seeing it with, but I'm talking about in terms of relevance and actually having a chance to move that needle to the point of competing for a title.

Speaker 2 I think those are the two places that make the most sense to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mentioned all the teams last Thursday, so people can go back and listen to that.

Speaker 1 The one team I forgot to mention is the Warriors, and I didn't mention them because I just don't think they have enough. But

Speaker 1 they have three first-round picks and a piece of another one to trade, and some big salaries, including Kaminga, who just got benched and is eligible to be traded January 15th.

Speaker 1 I mentioned Atlanta, I mentioned Toronto, I mentioned all the teams.

Speaker 1 Houston, what if I told you that the only way you get him is one

Speaker 1 of Shangoon or Ahmed Thompson has to be in the deal? Are you out?

Speaker 2 Can you be more specific? Pick one.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 which one would you prefer to give up if you have to? If that's the only way you're doing it and you're hell-bent on doing it, you can pick one. I'm the Bucs.
I'm John Horse.

Speaker 1 They say, I just need one of them. You pick.

Speaker 2 I would probably be more willing to part with Shangun.

Speaker 1 I said the same thing, and I wouldn't feel great. I wouldn't feel great about it.
Of course not. Of course not.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And, you know, people get, you know, they lose their mind.
All right, talk about trading Shangoon. No, I mean, think about what we're saying here.

Speaker 2 Giannis, and he has proven it this year with what he's doing.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's been no precipitous decline at all in Giannis' dominance and what he's doing on the court to affect the game in so many ways. Shangoon is a player I've come to love,

Speaker 2 but if you look at stylistically, if you add a Giannis to the mix, that's going to fit better if Shangoon isn't there because of the amount that Shangoon has the basketball.

Speaker 2 That's going to be a much more difficult thing. Ahmed Thompson,

Speaker 2 he's a guy that I just love his defense so much. And there's still so much more, I think, upside as an overall dominant downhill playmaker.

Speaker 1 I would be terrified to trade Amand Thompson. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Right. And you think now, because there's still some rawness to his game, some people might be like, oh, well, no, you don't really know what his upside is going to be.

Speaker 2 And that's exactly why I'd be terrified. I think I know what Shangoon's ultimate ceiling is.
Like, we're watching it right now. And

Speaker 2 look, I know he's a really young player, but I don't know if there's that much more than you're seeing right now out of Shangun, which, by the way, pretty damn good. It's all-star caliber.

Speaker 2 It's like NBA, like one of the three, you know, all-NBA teams caliber player. But I think I know exactly what that's going to look like probably for the next 10 years.

Speaker 2 I don't know exactly what the ceiling is going to be on Amand Thompson.

Speaker 2 And so that would be very scary to see that come to fruition in another place for the next decade if he ends up taking it to another stratosphere, which I think he's got the potential to do.

Speaker 2 So it would be Shangoon, and it'd be twisting my arm to pick one of the two, but it would be Shangoon. And then obviously there'd be some other stuff that would have to come back to Milwaukee as well.

Speaker 1 If they ever got to a point where they could do it without including either of those two players, that becomes a very interesting conversation, even if Reed Shepard has to be involved. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 The things that can't be underestimated about the Giannis thing are there are three. Number one is the extension leverage that I talked about that he has.
Number two is

Speaker 1 his injuries are a concern. Like teams are looking at this.
It's like a lot of playoff games missed the last few seasons. Another calf thing right now, like he's 31 almost.

Speaker 1 I think he turns 31 this week. This isn't nothing.
This is a real concern for teams.

Speaker 1 And the third one is maybe this is overthinking it, but a team like Houston, who's 15 and 6, they have a pretty set style of play that they've leaned all the way into.

Speaker 1 It's upheaval in the middle of a season that's going well for you, even with a guy this talented, at worst, the fourth best player in the NBA at worst. It is a whole like midstream.

Speaker 1 All right, we've got like 30 games or whatever it ends up being, 40 games to figure this out. And we're already really good.
Like there is a level of disruption that comes with this.

Speaker 1 And that's why I want to bring it back to San Antonio because I talked about them for Giannis and Giannis and Wemby being like this incredible pairing of just freaks and and lengths and aliens and all this.

Speaker 1 And I framed it around like, you're going to have to include one of Castle or Harper to get this done. If I'm the Bucs, like there's just no other way to do it.

Speaker 1 And the Spurs have like pick swaps and other stuff from a bunch of other teams.

Speaker 1 So I get like a Sacramento pick swap, maybe a Dallas pick swap, just bites at the apple where I can bet like one of these teams will be bad in the right year. for me if I'm Milwaukee.

Speaker 1 And I don't control my own picks unless I get the back from Atlanta or whatever.

Speaker 1 And it's an interesting conversation for the Spurs because you mentioned Durant in Oklahoma City,

Speaker 1 Durant in Houston.

Speaker 1 I talked last week about this decision that these Western Conference teams have to make of,

Speaker 1 is it better for us to go after OKC now,

Speaker 1 or is it better for us to wait? two or three years and see if the luxury tax breaks them up, if somebody gets hurt, if somebody declines?

Speaker 1 And there is no right answer to that question, but I was talking about to a front office guy about it over the weekend, and he said, I think the answer is actually different for Houston than it is for San Antonio because of Durant.

Speaker 1 Houston baked in some immediacy into their timetable that San Antonio does not have. And the more I think about it for San Antonio, it would have to be like a three for one or four for two trade.

Speaker 1 So not only am I giving up one of the young guards, both of whom have star potential, as you said, Castle and Harper, not only am I giving up a bunch of draft assets, but I'm also going to have to give up like depth pieces, Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, whatever you want to do to make the salary work.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to chip away at like guys seven to 10 in my rotation, which is a big deal. I think it's a harder decision for the Spurs than even I had thought of last week.

Speaker 1 It's just, there's just a lot of variables, man. These are not easy decisions.

Speaker 2 Listen, I'm sitting here looking at San Antonio with this collection of young players and the upside of these guys with this

Speaker 2 generational guy in Wemby at the top. And I'm saying

Speaker 2 there's some risk involved there. Yes, it would look like a sci-fi movie to watch the two of them out there together defensively.

Speaker 2 I don't know what that length would look like to an opposing offensive player with those two guys on the court. You know, the lob to each other potential that that would represent.

Speaker 2 And it's, it's almost comical to think about. So that's kind of fun to play with.
But at the same time, what they have right now is so healthy.

Speaker 2 Their culture, the talent that they've acquired, the direction they're headed in. You know, a guy like Wemby that you're thinking like, hey, man, it stays healthy.

Speaker 2 Look at the next 12 to 15 years with this guy as our best player because

Speaker 2 they've had that before with their top guy sticking around that long and that amount of winning that took place. They're headed in that direction.
Do you want to just

Speaker 2 And because you add Giannis, then everything speeds up. Now you've got to get it done quicker for the Spurs because you just had a Giannis.
He's had injuries. He's 31.

Speaker 2 Like we've got to now do this a lot faster timeframe. Is that a little bit unsettling? Does that rattle the cage a little bit? With the Spurs fan base, I feel like you voted on that.

Speaker 2 Would they all, would everybody be like all in? Oh, we get Giannis and Wemby.

Speaker 2 You got to think these things through and the pieces you're going to lose that are major rotational fits.

Speaker 2 And just the positivity around everything and where this is headed and the picks they've made and they've hit a home run on all of these. Like you got to think about that.
Do we want to disrupt that?

Speaker 2 Because we're headed there. And maybe we get there at a time when Oklahoma City is dealing with some issues or they've lost some guys.
And maybe that's the right time to arrive.

Speaker 2 Because if you add Giannis, that speeds all of that up where you're trying to contend year after year with him as well against an Oklahoma City team that doesn't look like they're about to go anywhere over the next several years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's

Speaker 1 really fascinating because on the one hand, if I'm the Spurs,

Speaker 1 this stretch without Wemby makes me really want to see what this team, as presently constructed, can do when healthy. Like, how good is the Fox, Wemby, everything we've seen?

Speaker 1 How good is it all together?

Speaker 1 And on the flip side, like, I'm pretty certain that no matter how good it is, it's not good enough to meet the Thunder and the Nuggets and maybe the Rockets in a playoff series.

Speaker 1 And I kind of don't know what to do with that.

Speaker 1 And to your point about Another argument for waiting that I think gets overlooked sometimes is there will be another guy, another unhappy superstar in two years, three years, a year, 18 months, maybe not as good as Giannis, but maybe it doesn't have to be as good as Giannis if Wen Benyama is so good.

Speaker 1 There will be other stuff that comes up. All right, they are playing in the quarterfinals, the Los Angeles Lakers, which was my team.

Speaker 1 My big question for Tim Legler about the Lakers is 17 and 6, LeBron streak over.

Speaker 1 Again, the most fitting double-digit streak ending play that could possibly happen.

Speaker 1 I mean, you and I remember when he passed to Danielle Marshall in the the 2007 conference finals against the Pistons when he kicked out and people hated it on him for that.

Speaker 1 I remember in March 2020, I was at the Sloan Conference when he passed at down one Heat Jazz passed to Eudonis Haslam for a long two that Haslam missed, and he got pilloried for that, even though they were both the right basketball play.

Speaker 1 Let me, you could argue about the 2007 one, but man, if you read some of the coverage of LeBron from like 2007 through 2012, it's so scathing. And

Speaker 1 the passing late in games criticism is like, so it almost reads as like borderline insane at sometimes because he was making the right play every time. And of course, now he's celebrated for it.

Speaker 1 Anyway, clutch baskets yesterday against Philly,

Speaker 1 17 and 6, second in the West, 20th in defense. And that's my question for you.
Reeves, Luca, LeBron.

Speaker 1 No matter how you configure it, no matter how you work the rotation, stagger the minutes, play Marcus Smart, maybe Jared Vanderbilt gets back into the rotation somehow.

Speaker 1 Whatever you do, is this team good enough defensively to do actual, real,

Speaker 1 like get to the conference finals and maybe be on damage in the Western Conference?

Speaker 2 Well, their defense is not going to be the reason. It's not going to be good enough at any point, I think, because of the personnel.
It's just not going to be. Now, J.J.

Speaker 2 Reddick can get clever with coverages and mixing in some zone and different things to protect guys

Speaker 2 out on the floor. And look, that's always going to be a case with Luca.
It's not as bad as it was last year when it was almost laughable what they had to do to try to protect him at all times.

Speaker 2 He's playing a little bit harder on that end, but he's just not going to be a guy that affects the game a whole lot down there. I think what J.J.
Reddick's counting on is...

Speaker 2 It will not be something that is so poor, we can't overcome it because we have these three different guys that can manipulate defenses unlike any other team in the league.

Speaker 2 No team in the league has three guys that can control and manipulate a defense through isolation or ball screen the way that their three guys can.

Speaker 2 To think that they've got three guys averaging 6.8 assists and up is pretty incredible. And Reeve showed you what he was capable of doing when different guys were out and it was kind of at his show.

Speaker 2 He's like the perfect guy to pair with both of them. But on nights when he has to be more him, because one of those guys is out, he's shown you what he can take it to.

Speaker 2 And I think that's what JJ's counting on. He thinks that they're built more for less possessions possessions in a playoff game.

Speaker 2 Good luck guarding us and guarding these three guys who can, even against physical defenses, have the handle and the strength and the size and the IQ and the shot making ability to be able to trump whatever you throw at us.

Speaker 2 Defensively, it's always going to be something that we're trying to mask. It'll mean less.
in the playoffs than it does a lot of nights in the regular season.

Speaker 2 And I think that's what they're counting on. And some nights you look at them offensively and you kind of go, man, okay, again, listen, this is all comparing everything to Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 So it's almost like you're not saying, can they win the West?

Speaker 2 What we're really saying is, can they be the last team standing against the Thunder? That's really what this conversation is in the Western Conference.

Speaker 2 It's not really about, to me, getting to the finals. Because I just don't see that happening if Oklahoma City keeps their top guys healthy.
And maybe even then, they're so deep.

Speaker 2 But we're really talking about it. Can they be the last team standing? If you stay out of OKC's bracket,

Speaker 2 can you be that team that takes them onto the conference finals and actually give them a competitive series in the conference finals? And I think the answer to that for me is yes. And I think for J.J.

Speaker 2 Reddick, I think he really likes his team because he knows how hard they are to deal with because of those three guys.

Speaker 1 See, I think.

Speaker 1 I still think the fully healthy Nuggets could give Oklahoma City a run in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 The Rockets are TBD, but I like the way that they're sort of leaning in on like, we can't beat them running. We can't beat them with sexy offense.
We're just going to beat the shit out of them.

Speaker 1 That's the only chance we have.

Speaker 1 And the Lakers, as you said, are going with, we have this three-headed monster offensively that even if our defense is average, you're just, even you, Oklahoma City, even you with 9,000 wing defenders to throw at these guys and swipe at the ball are not going to have an answer for a guy who already beat you in the playoffs two years ago with a different team to Dallas Mavericks.

Speaker 1 Sorry, Sorry, Mavs fans, in Luca.

Speaker 1 It's an interesting,

Speaker 1 but the Nuggets are the one team that I think I'm not just waltzing Oklahoma City into the finals, even though I did pick them to win the championship and still would.

Speaker 1 And the Lakers,

Speaker 1 to your point about playoff basketball,

Speaker 1 8-0 in clutch games this season. And that 8-0 record in close games down the stretch is sort of inflating their overall record.

Speaker 1 They have the point differential of like a 12-and-whatever, whatever, 12 and 9 team instead of a 17 and 6 team. And yes, I realize I did the math there wrong.

Speaker 1 And they're getting propped up their record by these clutch games, but I don't like you, maybe that should be 6 and 2 instead of 8 and 0.

Speaker 1 This team is built to win close games with the guys they have orchestrating their offense and the decision-making they have late in games. I think they're more dangerous.

Speaker 1 as a potential conference finals team than that 20th ranking in defense might suggest because I do think there are still some levers left to pull, some guys left left to get healthy.

Speaker 1 And the offense, which is sixth, is completely legit to me.

Speaker 1 I think LeBron, although he wasn't shooting well until last night against Philadelphia, has integrated himself as well and as smoothly as could possibly have been expected.

Speaker 1 And they're going to be super hard to guard. And if Houston has, I mean, Houston style, we'll see how it translates.
Denver is not healthy right now.

Speaker 1 We'll see what their health status is in the playoffs. We'll obviously see where LeBron's health is at age 41 in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 I don't think it's unfathomable at all that the Lakers could get to the conference finals. I think they're going to be a dangerous team.
And people are sort of,

Speaker 1 there's a cadre of critics who are like, well, their defense stinks. They have no chance.

Speaker 1 Well, they might not have a chance to get to Thunder. I'm not counting them out against anybody else.
Now, I'd pick Denver over them in a playoff series.

Speaker 1 I'd probably pick Houston over them in a playoff series, but I'd think hard about it. And obviously, I'd pick Oklahoma City, but I think they're a legit, really good team.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't think this record is super misleading. I think this is a good team.

Speaker 2 Totally agree with that. And I think, look, you're right.
And I don't think it's going to be a cakewalk for Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 I just sit there and think about all the things that would have to go right for you to beat them four times in a seven-game series. And look, Denver took them to seven games a year ago.

Speaker 2 Indiana took them to seven games in the NBA Finals. And so, you know, it was a tough path, but I do, this team is better.

Speaker 2 This Oklahoma City team is better. And, you know, not just saying that because they're, what, 22 and one.

Speaker 2 They just are. Like, not only have they had like an emergence of a guy like A.J.
Mitchell, who's

Speaker 2 this guy is a big-time player.

Speaker 2 And this is on Degnalt on those nights when everybody is available. Now, this year it's been like just enough guys out every night that everybody's getting appropriate run.

Speaker 2 Eventually at some point, like there's going to be some guys frozen out a little bit of this rotation.

Speaker 2 That's going to be a difficult decision for him, but they're better because they now have, to me, they have this swagger about them and this confidence about them that they're carrying themselves differently.

Speaker 2 Last year, they knew they were a great team. It was still uncharted territory.
You know, were they going to be able to do it after getting bounced a year before?

Speaker 2 Can you get all the way through and navigate it? And they were able to navigate the big moments in the big games. I think they're better than they were.
So they'll be challenged in the postseason.

Speaker 2 It's just really hard for me to think Denver, Houston, which are the two top teams or the Lakers, could beat them four times

Speaker 2 because of what they are able to do to you with their versatility defensively and the the number of guys that cause problems on that end of the floor.

Speaker 2 And then just the ultimate answer in Shea, which no one really has any idea how to slow him down and to get him off his spot. So

Speaker 2 look, they're to me, they're not just a leader of Clubhouse. They're like the prohibitive favorite.

Speaker 2 Again, it's pretty obvious with the start of the year they've had, there are three teams that can challenge them, but beating them is a different thing.

Speaker 1 Well, they were your Oklahoma City, Phoenix is the last cup quarterfinal game. Oklahoma City was your team.
Big issue, big question. Did you just say it, or do you have something?

Speaker 1 No, I think that's it. I think

Speaker 2 here's my only question for you because I think this is really all we're talking about with this team. You know, first of all, you know, do you think they're going to win 75, 76 games?

Speaker 2 I mean, they're on pace for 78 right now, so they'd have to really cool off to win 75 or 76. They'd have to have a bad week at some point.

Speaker 2 And here's my question about them.

Speaker 2 If they do it,

Speaker 2 and all the metrics are there that we talk about, and they win 75 games, they break the single season record, then they go on and they win three rounds and they're not pushed beyond, like, say, six games in any series.

Speaker 2 And then they get to the NBA Finals and they win that in five or six games as well.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 if all that were to happen, do you think they will be a team that then will ascend to

Speaker 2 greatest of all time or one of the greatest of all time?

Speaker 2 Or do you think that there's such nostalgia associated with some of those teams that it's very difficult to crack that, no matter what their season ends up being? Like, how do you view them?

Speaker 2 And based on the current landscape of the NBA and what the league looks like, if they're able to pull this off,

Speaker 2 what will that say about this team historically? That's really, to me, what they're chasing now. They're chasing being not just a champion.
They're chasing being an all-time great team.

Speaker 2 That's what they want to do. And it seems like they're pretty damn intent on doing that this year by breaking the record and really doing it without pushing themselves.

Speaker 1 Well, and, you know, Shay's comments, I can't remember who he made them to a few weeks ago about, you know,

Speaker 1 we weren't satisfied with how we played in the playoffs last year, with how we, you know, just had to sneak out a couple of series like that.

Speaker 1 That was like a terrifying warning shot to the entire league, as if they needed. to fire another warning shot when they're 23 and one with a net rating that is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 It's part of the reason I took the over on them, even though the line was set preposterously high. I think they want this.
I think they like this. I think they want the pressure.

Speaker 1 I think they're hungry to make history. I do think they're going to win 70 games, maybe 73.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I will say, I'm almost not ready for your discussion yet about their place in history because we've seen it's just, it's too hard. It's so hard that even

Speaker 1 the evidence being the 73 win team did not win the championship. Like, it's just so hard.
And there's going to be moments in the playoffs that will test them.

Speaker 1 But yes, Tim, if all those things happen, they will be in the conversation for greatest single season team of all time.

Speaker 1 They will have repeated as champions, which opens the door to all kinds of historic discussions. And they are sitting.

Speaker 1 on not only the Los Angeles Clippers unprotected first-round pick, but this Philadelphia 76ers top four protected first-round pick and the Utah Jazz top eight protected first-round pick.

Speaker 1 In related news, the Jazz

Speaker 1 didn't tank. They just got blown out by the thunder last night without Lowry marking it.

Speaker 1 And the Clippers, after one nice win post-Chris Paul parting of ways, went right back to losing. It's a little bit scary, but it's always harder than people think.

Speaker 1 I do think they're cracking 70. And if you, you know, their next three games, including this Phoenix game, are all pretty winnable, and then it gets a little harder.

Speaker 1 73, it's just, you know, you know, they'll have, I mean, they won't have a lull, but

Speaker 1 I mean, like you said, they're on pace for 78 wins.

Speaker 2 Can I give you one more thought on them? Because I thought something you just said triggered. I agree with you.
I think they do want it. And I don't necessarily think Mark Dagnal wants that.

Speaker 2 I've been around Mark Dagnal more than, we've spent, it's almost like a second home, but, you know, calling games at Oklahoma City. We've been there so much.

Speaker 2 And I've had so many conversations with him. He's so.

Speaker 2 present in a given moment, hour by hour, the way that his mentality about everything, it's not something that I think he has ever even really consciously thought. Yes, man, that'd be great.

Speaker 2 It'd be cool for these guys to do it. He doesn't, but I think the players do.

Speaker 2 And I don't even think they're talking about it, but the way that they're carrying themselves and the amount of

Speaker 2 enthusiasm they have for what they're doing to teams, it seems like, you know, it's there.

Speaker 2 It's floating around and it's something that they are grabbing as a group, even if it's not ever going to be discussed or ever going to be emphasized internally, it's just organically possible because of the way that they carry themselves, the amount of depth they have on given nights to give guys rest and stay fresh.

Speaker 2 I do think that they're kind of going for it, even if they're not going to talk about it. And they've got a great chance to do it.
Think about this, Zach.

Speaker 2 Do you know the only game they lost this year was the port. They were up 20.

Speaker 2 They lost a 20-point lead in that game.

Speaker 1 Or they're 24-0.

Speaker 2 Or they're 24-0 right now. And now, then we wouldn't just be talking about 73 wins.
Then we would be talking about 33 in a row. That other record out there that seems absolutely impossible,

Speaker 2 especially in current NBA with the amount of injuries and load management and all this stuff that goes on. If they had gotten that game in Portland and held that lead, they'd be 24-0 right now.

Speaker 2 Then that would be the next, we'd be talking about that too, doing both of those.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 1 I almost wonder

Speaker 1 if I wonder if this is, if not been verbalized, if it has popped into the brains of anybody with the Oklahoma City Thunder, of

Speaker 1 now we have this new thing, the NBA Cup, being the first team to win the cup and the championship, and now maybe set the win record in the same year. The cup is like this little extra thing.

Speaker 1 I'll bet you someone in there has saw like, who won the cup last year? The Bucs? They didn't do so well. Who won the first one? The Lakers? They didn't do that great.

Speaker 1 Well, wouldn't it be cool if we won and we won the whole thing?

Speaker 1 Phoenix is their opponent. And my big question for you for Phoenix, the Suns are 12th in offense, 13th in defense, just a solid all-around team.
And I just big picture,

Speaker 1 does this seem real to you? Like,

Speaker 1 how surprised are you and how sustainable is this? Is this really an above 500 team in the West?

Speaker 2 They've become one of my guilty pleasures watching the Phoenix Suns. And here's the first thing you notice about the Phoenix Suns now.

Speaker 2 Just visually, if you sit down to watch the game, it's obvious that they're playing harder than they did the last few years. And just by doing that,

Speaker 2 you kind of have a little bit more admiration for them because they were just this underachievement.

Speaker 2 They're trying to put that talent together and try to win. And it just never looked right.
This is different. Again, you've got this one clear alpha in Booker.

Speaker 2 You've had an incredible year, though, out of Dylan Brooks. You know, I didn't think Dylan Brooks could dial his game up to this level offensively.

Speaker 2 One of the best stories in the league in Colin Gillespie, which really strikes home with me because of coaching against him when he was started, when he was like 12 years old in AAU and watching this kid and what he has gone on to become and now entrenched himself in Phoenix and such an important cog for them.

Speaker 2 You know, this rookie coach. After they brought in two guys that won titles, you know, and

Speaker 2 they gave both of those guys one year each in Vogla, Butenholzer. Didn't work.
So let's go with Jordan Attitz, never been a head coach in the league.

Speaker 2 Let's redefine what we're going to look like with this one alpha offensively and pieces that fit. And I got, but here's the biggest thing.
Play harder.

Speaker 2 Let's just see what can happen if we actually compete with that level of physicality. And that's what they're doing.

Speaker 2 And that's why I do think, look, I don't know if they're going to maintain this winning percentage, but I do think this is a team that's got a great shot to, you know, when it's all said and done, potentially be above the play-in or in the play-in and a chance to advance into a seven-game series.

Speaker 2 And I didn't know that anybody really thought that going into the season. I've been really impressed with what this product looks like compared to what I watched for the last three years.

Speaker 1 Maybe the stat of the entire season for the deep cut nerds. The Phoenix Suns are plus 50.

Speaker 1 in 248 minutes with the dynamic duo of Colin Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin on the floor together, just swiping the ball from people, going the other way.

Speaker 1 And Colin Gillespie just making big three after big three late in games and being called Connor Gillespie on some broadcasts by people who don't know who the hell he is.

Speaker 1 I guess my big question with them would be on offense. 12th strikes me as quite high, considering Booker has had just a so-so shooting season.
Jalen Green hasn't played at all. Maybe that would help.

Speaker 1 Maybe it wouldn't. And just they don't exactly overflow with ball handling talent aside from Booker.
Brooks has been outstanding. He's averaging 22 games, shooting the hell out of it on twos.

Speaker 1 They are 29th in shots at the rim, so they're not

Speaker 1 getting to the basket much. And they're shooting well from all over the floor, top 10 from every range on the floor in shooting percentage.
That I think probably will come down a little bit.

Speaker 1 But this is a play-in team for sure. They're 7-10 in the West lock.
Like, I don't see any chance that they fall out of that. And maybe they stick in the seven and eight.

Speaker 1 I mean, Memphis has started to play a lot better. They've had an easy schedule, but they've also piled up some good wins now.

Speaker 1 Like, that's been, it's kind of been interesting to watch the Grizzlies without John Morant. Like, Vince Williams has been pretty good as a pseudo point guard.
Jalen Wells has found his game.

Speaker 1 Edie completely changes their team with a post-up, like pick and roll. He rolls hard.
He rolls into post-ups. He gets good position.

Speaker 1 They've got a good spirit about them now, but they're still a few games behind Phoenix. The top six is a bridge too far for me.

Speaker 1 This top six in the West of OKC, Lakers, Nuggets, Rockets, Spurs, Wolves, always the forgotten team, the Wolves. It's just, I don't see Phoenix cracking that.

Speaker 1 But if we get to the end of the season and they're hosting a play-in game, whether it's the first game or the second game, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

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Speaker 1 Can I ask you about one other team before we get to all-star picks?

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 This is becoming one of the more pressing issues in the league to me, particularly after they lost to the remains of the Warriors and one half of the Lacks Bros, the Spencer Bros

Speaker 1 over the weekend. What's wrong with the Cleveland Cavaliers, or is anything wrong with the Cleveland Cavaliers other than they just can't get and stay healthy? Is that all it is?

Speaker 1 Or is there something else going on here for a team that won 60-something games last year? They're 14 and 11 despite playing 15 of their first 25 at home.

Speaker 1 And just

Speaker 1 eye test doesn't look great to me.

Speaker 2 Period. And

Speaker 2 so they won 64 games a year ago. They were number one rated offensive team in the league.
They're 10th this year. So, and that's injuries have a lot to do with that.

Speaker 2 Darius Garland, even when he has played, has not look quite the same. He does not look as explosive or as quick or just as dynamic as he was, even on the nights he's played.

Speaker 2 They haven't had Max Struce. Sam Merrill, who's important for them, has missed a lot of time.
Jared Allen's only played 10 games. Injuries matter in this league a lot.
We talk about it a lot.

Speaker 2 They've definitely dealt with more than their share, but it's more than that. I don't think they're that tough of a team, and I don't think they play quite hard enough.

Speaker 2 I also think, Zach, is there a cumulative effect that's kind of taken root with this team of last year,

Speaker 2 best offense in the NBA, 64 wins, pedal to the medal, full throttle, watch them all year, and every night you're like, man, how are you going to guard this team?

Speaker 2 And at the end of the day, they get bounced and they go out with a whimper in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 does that carry over to the next year where you're kind of like,

Speaker 2 well,

Speaker 2 they don't feel quite the same as like the regular season, man. Like, I see the finish line.
Like, we're going to get there. We're out ahead of the pack.
We're dominating the Eastern Conference.

Speaker 2 Nobody can catch us. And it's almost like when you lose the way that they did, and like, there's such, it's such a letdown the way the year ended.
And you take that into the summer.

Speaker 2 I almost feel like I'm watching a team that's kind of feeling that way about themselves a little bit. Well, what does all this even mean?

Speaker 2 Like, who cares about being the number random offensive team who wins 64 games? Like, it wasn't good enough. So it's almost like the regular season, maybe.

Speaker 2 It means a little bit less than it did to them a year ago as well. Because when I watch them, I don't see that same level of intensity.
And I only called one of their games this year.

Speaker 2 It was opening night against the Knicks in New York. And the Knicks were significantly more intense and played a lot harder in that game.

Speaker 2 Donovan Mitchell had his monster third quarter that made it a game. Other than that, the Knicks took it to him.
And you're kind of watching it going, oh, that's interesting start to the year for them.

Speaker 2 But it's kind of been like that all year. And the injuries are a big part of it.
And maybe they'll get all these guys back and go in a roll. It remains to be seen.

Speaker 2 But there's an edge to them that's not there that I look at with some of the other teams that I really like watching.

Speaker 2 And I look at the Cavs and I go, there's something missing with their mental and physical toughness and just their intensity in general.

Speaker 2 And maybe they just got to get healthy and they'll feel better about themselves and they'll go on another run and we'll forget about a lot of that.

Speaker 1 I'm worried. I've been worried almost the entire year.
I came into the year and I called this an existential crisis season for the Cavs.

Speaker 1 Like this big, this four guys either works or we get to the end of the year and they're not going to all be on the same team after the offseason again. And it didn't work.

Speaker 1 And now I think it's only gotten more accelerated than that.

Speaker 1 Here's your case for optimism, if you're a Cavs fan.

Speaker 1 They are 22nd in three-point shooting,

Speaker 1 and they are allowing the 10th highest three-point shooting percentage from their opponents.

Speaker 1 Just that normalizing is probably worth like three wins, and they're 17 and 8, and none of this is an issue, right?

Speaker 1 With Mitchell and Mobley on the floor together, they're plus 7.5 per 100 possessions. Great number.
Not as good as last year, but good.

Speaker 1 With Mobley and Allen on the floor together plus 10 per 100 possessions then you look like let me look at their record numbers with the big four on the floor plus 1.8 per 100 possessions well that's not very good and then you look at garland they are getting blitzed with garland on the floor and just watching every game you watch watch the most recent one against the warriors if you just watch darius garland There's like three instances in every game where you can see his toe acting up.

Speaker 1 Like you can see him wince. You can can see him limp for a couple steps.
And it's just like, this isn't going away.

Speaker 1 And that to me is the number one reason for worry is that I just like, I don't understand. I just, it seems like it's just a like permanent is too strong a word.
It's not going away right now.

Speaker 1 Jared Allen's kind of been underwhelming. And when he's out, I wonder what your answer to this.
I've watched their couple of their most recent games with this question in mind.

Speaker 1 Why isn't it a little easier for Evan Mobley and their offense in general when Evan Mobley is playing center? Like, why aren't there more spread, pick and roll, easy baskets for him?

Speaker 1 What is your thought about that question?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree with that. I watch them some nights and I think to myself, like, it's almost like he picks up the crumbs sometimes.
Like, there's no, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It's not intentional, like what we're trying to do because of his versatile skill set.

Speaker 2 And he is a very versatile offensive player. He's added deep shooting to his game, which that was something he didn't really think much about in the first couple of years in the league.

Speaker 2 He's now become more of a threat out there. He's got a really soft touch with either hand if he gets into paint.
He can put it down a little bit better.

Speaker 2 He's added some a little bit of escapability with his handle. But I agree with you.

Speaker 2 I think it should be far easier to get him an advantage almost every trip if that's what you want to do, particularly against switching teams.

Speaker 2 Because of his size and his ability now to do more with the basketball and the fact that he can shoot over the top a little bit easier.

Speaker 2 He doesn't have to be wide open for an open 18-foot face-up jumper. Like he can do more than that now on the perimeter to get his own shot.

Speaker 2 I just, it feels like there's nights I watch him and it's, there's still like a quietness to his game some quarters when you watch him. That's surprising because I think he's better than that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I was

Speaker 1 watching specifically the Mitchell Mobley and Garland Mobley pick and roll with him at center, the floor spread around him.

Speaker 1 Like teams are obviously sending help towards him on the catch, and that happens to every big man.

Speaker 1 He just seems to sort of have just a tiny bit of hesitation in his game sometimes, where he doesn't want to just force his way through little tiny corridors that other guys will just ram through.

Speaker 1 And that's fine. Like he gets a lot of assists that way, and he still has averaging 20 points a game.
It's just not as, nothing is as easy as it was last year.

Speaker 1 I do think when Struis comes back, it will be an interesting moment for them because.

Speaker 1 DeAndre Hunter has sort of taken that starting spot and he's been good for them, but the way Struce moves around the floor and the speed with which he runs every cut, just always moving, I think might be a better fit for their starting five than Hunter.

Speaker 1 Hunter looks like a better defensive player than Struce. I'm not sure that he actually is.

Speaker 1 I think he's a little overrated in that sense. I wonder if that would kind of juice them up a little bit, but I don't know.
I'm,

Speaker 1 I, it's not, it doesn't look great.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 1 all right, I asked you to pick your all-stars. 12 from each conference.

Speaker 1 I went through this last year just to, or last week, rather, just to get a feel for this new ballot where I need a minimum of 16 U.S.

Speaker 1 players and a minimum of eight international players for this goofy round-robin all-star game because we just can't have a normal all-star game anymore.

Speaker 1 And I ended up with, depending on how you classify Carl Anthony Towns, I classified him as a U.S. player for my purposes.
I ended up with 15 American players.

Speaker 1 uh and nine international players which means i would have had to add another u.s player.

Speaker 1 Start in the East. You just rattle off your 12 all-star picks in the East.

Speaker 2 Okay. Kay Cunningham,

Speaker 2 Jalen Brunson,

Speaker 2 Jalen Brown,

Speaker 2 Tyrese Maxey, Donovan Mitchell,

Speaker 2 Jalen Johnson, Jalen Duran,

Speaker 2 Kat, and Bam.

Speaker 2 That is what nine

Speaker 2 guys

Speaker 2 That's nine USA players. Okay.

Speaker 2 And then the three, the three other guys I added who'd go to the world team, Franz Wagner, Giannis, and Giddy.

Speaker 1 Giddy.

Speaker 1 All right. So you have no Norm Powell.
That's a difference between you and me.

Speaker 2 You got Norm instead of Bam, or you can't have both?

Speaker 1 I have Norm over Bam.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 No Evan Mobley.

Speaker 2 That was kind of, I was torn between

Speaker 2 Norman Powell and Bam myself, being honest.

Speaker 2 I don't have Mobley either.

Speaker 1 And no Scotty Barnes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I didn't have. Yeah, I know.
You have both of those guys.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I have my.

Speaker 2 Replacing who? Giddy and who?

Speaker 1 I have no Bam. I have no Giddy.
And who else did you have there at the end?

Speaker 2 Cat?

Speaker 1 No, I have Kat. I'll just name mine again.
And I'm revising. I have Cade, Brunson, Cat, Mitchell.
Jalen Brown, Jalen Johnson, Tyrese Maxie, and Giannis. And then we differ.
I have Scotty Barnes.

Speaker 1 I have Mobley penciled in.

Speaker 2 So you don't have Jalen Duran.

Speaker 1 I might put Durin in over Mobley. He's like my next guy in.

Speaker 2 It would be very difficult to not reward Durren for the year Detroit's had if you look at his numbers and Mobley's. That would be tough for me to go with to go with Mobley over Durren.

Speaker 2 Mobley's a better all-around player, but Durin's been, Durren's been very consistently dominant, man. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And as people would say, well, he's, he's more of a kind of a moocher on offense, like catching lobs and offensive rebounds.

Speaker 1 He's actually doing quite a bit of self-creation in their offense, both as a scorer and a passer.

Speaker 1 So I wouldn't mind that. And then I had Franz in and my replacement, the guy I felt worst about was Siakam, who's just quietly having this like 24, 7, and 6 season.

Speaker 1 And yeah, it's easy to say, well, we have to reward winning and blah, blah, blah. I mean, the Pacers are minus four with Siakam on the floor.
and minus 17 when he's on the bench.

Speaker 1 He's just propping up this, now getting healthy.

Speaker 1 And part of the reason I'm thinking about him and Duran is we could flash forward three weeks and Indiana could start winning like a normal amount of games because they're getting healthy.

Speaker 1 Like it's still below 500, but their record wouldn't look like this. And the Pistons could fall back and have already started to fall back at least a little bit.
They've won two in a row now. But

Speaker 1 you can't go wrong with Nanosi People. I had Franz and I would give his spot to Siakam if Franz is

Speaker 1 injured. No, Scotty Barnes is a tough one.
What does Scotty Barnes have to do to get something?

Speaker 2 I know, man. I'm with you.
And I guess, you know,

Speaker 2 a lot of people would take him over Giddy, I guess. You know,

Speaker 2 I'm looking at, and look, I can't, I can't take,

Speaker 1 Giddy's.

Speaker 2 Listen, if Chicago, listen, if Chicago, this, and I think part of that was probably more, this is probably about 10 days late with Giddy, right?

Speaker 2 Because their team has sort of nosedived, but they had this incredible year, and he's still, his numbers, he's still 29 and 9.

Speaker 2 With great shooting splits, too. He's almost 40% from the three, which was such an Achilles heel for him.

Speaker 2 So shooting splits.

Speaker 1 To be clear, he's on my final cuts list. I just can't quite get there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I, I have no problem whatsoever if anybody is going to give a spot to uh

Speaker 2 to Scotty Barnes. Some people might even put Ingram on there because you're going to get somebody from Toronto with, you know, they've had a very good, you know, first 25 games or whatever.

Speaker 2 Some people would do that. Scotty Barnes is, you know, their best all-around player.
So I'd be perfectly fine with that. And again, like, I wrote these names down.

Speaker 2 Like, Giddy is like like holding on, but their team continues to, he won't be in, I don't think, in consideration if they, they continue to lose games

Speaker 2 over the month of December.

Speaker 1 If I

Speaker 1 had to pick between guys I didn't put on, I would put Bam over Giddy. And I might put Bam on anyway.
Look, his offensive numbers are never going to look spectacular. He's like 19 and 9.

Speaker 1 His shooting's just okay. What that dude does

Speaker 1 defensively, plugging every hole and guarding anybody that the guy is just a flat-out winner. And if you want to reward that, that's fine.

Speaker 1 And Siakov, I just want to say his name because he's not going to get mentioned.

Speaker 1 He's going to get overlooked because the Pacers record, he's been sensational for the Pacers, and I think probably deserves one of these spots, particularly if Franz is injured and can't go.

Speaker 1 All right, let's go out to the West where spoiler, the field is deeper and tougher, and the final cuts are pretty painful. Who you got?

Speaker 2 All right, so I've got 12 names listed: six are U.S., six are world.

Speaker 2 Okay, U.S. players, Steph Curry, check, Kevin Durant, check,

Speaker 2 Anthony Edwards, check, Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 No, check.

Speaker 2 You don't have Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 We'll see. We'll get there.

Speaker 2 Chet Holmgren.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 Austin Reeves. Check.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 world guys, Luca, check. Shea.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 Joker.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 Shangoon.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 Wemby.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 Denny Avdia.

Speaker 1 Check.

Speaker 2 That's my 12. So you did not.
So the only one we were different. Who do you have over Booker? Jamal Murray?

Speaker 1 Jamal Murray.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
That was, that was my, that was my coin flip, honestly. That was my coin flip.
And here's the only, here's the only reason I decided. Literally, this was the debate.

Speaker 2 11 names I wrote down really quickly. And then I got to that last one.

Speaker 1 It's tough in the Westman. It's tough.
It's tough. Like, we didn't even mention Lowry Markinan, who's one of my final guys out.
And he's averaging about 28 points a game. Jamal.

Speaker 2 Here's ultimately why I went with Reeves over Murray. And again, man, coin flip.
I don't, it easily could be Murray.

Speaker 2 For the most part, like, there's not nights when Murray has had to be their best player because he's playing next to Jokic.

Speaker 2 Like, there have been nights the Lakers can't can't win or haven't been able to win or wouldn't win if Austin Reeves wasn't their best player on that given night.

Speaker 2 And so the burden he's had to carry with LeBron out, nights he played without Luka too. And I called one of those games when he hit the buzzer beater

Speaker 2 and he had 28 points, like 14 assists, and was getting everything thrown at him defensively against Minnesota that you can imagine.

Speaker 2 And he still did whatever he wanted to with the ball and hits hits the floater at the buzzer to win the game.

Speaker 2 I'm saying there's nights his burden has been so much higher because he hasn't had those guys next to him or he's had one of them.

Speaker 2 But even on those nights, he's been like the guy for long stretches of games. Murray's been great and he's a big reason why Denver is like in the championship mix again because he's playing so well.

Speaker 2 But he doesn't have that burden. Most of the time, he always does have.
Joker out there, and it's going to be him dictating things. Reeves has had nights where he's had to do it and he has.

Speaker 2 And as a result, you look up and the Lakers have the record they have, despite all the time missed from LeBron and time missed from Luca as well.

Speaker 1 Let me be clear: this is not a Jamal Murray-Austin Reeves argument for me. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 You're right. Austin Reeves is a lock.

Speaker 1 Reeves is a lock.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was, I was, your argument was with Booker.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I'll do that. But Austin Reeves like 100% cosine.
He's in. He makes the all-star team.
What a story. Undrafted, two-way to this, averaging 29 points a game almost.
Crazy, no-brainer all-star.

Speaker 1 Jamal Murray, 25 points, 7 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 51% shooting, 45% on threes, 55% on twos.

Speaker 1 Devin Booker, 25 points a game, 7 assists a game, 4.5 rebounds a game. Basically the same stats.
46% shooting, 31.5 on threes, 52 on twos.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 he is the best player on the Phoenix Suns and has to be the best player on the Phoenix Suns. Jamal Murray has the luxury of playing with the best player in basketball.

Speaker 1 I just, I look at the shooting percentages. I look at the injuries to Denver's starting five.
I look at the fact that they have finally been able to stay afloat without Jokic on the floor.

Speaker 1 And Murray is part of those lineups. And I'm just going to give him the award of you're shooting the bejesus out of it.
You've had a couple monster games, a 52-point game recently. I'm putting you in.

Speaker 1 Booker is a brutal omission, and it doesn't end there. Lowry Marketing, I mean, what am I supposed to say to Utah fans? He's having a sensational season.

Speaker 1 I don't know what else to say, except there's, you know, a lot of guys. Avdia, I think, might raise some eyebrows from people who aren't paying attention.

Speaker 1 His numbers are awesome, and the Blazers are a positive plus scoring margin with him on the floor, minus 13 per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.

Speaker 1 And he has to play point guard for a team who all their point guards are injured. He's in.

Speaker 1 Lowry is a brutal omission, and it would be an easy case for him. Julius Randall is a brutal omission.
You can make an easy case for him.

Speaker 1 The one that's going to be polarizing is Hardin, who has had maybe the best offseason of his career post-Houston.

Speaker 1 And people are going to say, well, you're just punishing him because of the Clippers' record. How could you do that and make an argument for Siakam or whatever? Well, number one, it's the West.

Speaker 1 The field is just deeper. The standards are higher.
Number two, he's had a great season. There's no question about it.

Speaker 1 The Clippers are

Speaker 1 bad, and he is averaging. Let me bring it up: 27, 8, and 5, 44% shooting, 37% on threes, 54% on twos.
He's an Iron Man. He plays every game.

Speaker 1 I don't really have a great argument against it other than who am I removing from this crazy field of guys in the West when Chet's got to be on. Like, Oklahoma City's got to have two all-stars.

Speaker 1 There's just no question he's worthy of it. I don't know who to pick.
And I do think as sensational as Hardin's numbers are offensively, his defense has been bad even by his standards.

Speaker 1 And that's the reason, not him, but their defense is the reason why they're bad. So I'm sweating hairs.
I got to leave them off. And you left him off too, I guess.

Speaker 2 And now, look, I do want to ask you a question because, just looking at this, so if you,

Speaker 2 we were 11 for 12 in terms of agreeing in the West. So let's say you were right.
It's Murray instead of Booker. Murray goes to the world team, right?

Speaker 1 I need to add one American team. I need to add a

Speaker 2 market.

Speaker 2 That was my point. You have to add an American.

Speaker 2 And maybe that's where Booker gets in.

Speaker 1 I'd have to look at it.

Speaker 2 And it would either be Booker or Scotty Barnes.

Speaker 1 Well, for me, it wouldn't be Scotty Barnes because I would have him. Oh, Scott.

Speaker 2 It could be Randall. It could be Blooker.

Speaker 1 It could be Bam in my case.

Speaker 2 That's right, because you didn't have Bam.

Speaker 1 It can't be poor Larry Marketing.

Speaker 1 I think the international guys

Speaker 1 have a tougher road to climb here than the U.S. guys, honestly, particularly if Wemby.
I mean, Wemby's going to get in despite the game's missed.

Speaker 1 And we haven't even, but like, there's also this possibility of LeBron. I don't, I have to refresh my memory, but you would imagine LeBron is going to win the fan vote somehow.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't know how powerful that is, but like,

Speaker 1 he doesn't even, he hasn't played enough. These are not easy decisions, man.

Speaker 1 And some of these guys, like Lowry marketing, to have the season he's having and not make an all-star game would be a tough pill to swallow.

Speaker 2 Well, I'll do it too. I'm wondering, like, there's going to be people that are going to just flat out.
Look, you know, look, they're 9-15 right now. I mean, you know, move that forward over there.

Speaker 2 They play at the same winning percentage over the month of December, you know, first half of January. When these things are being decided, there's going to be people, and who knows?

Speaker 2 Like, Dallas starts winning games. They pass them.
Now, Portland's not even in play-in territory. There are going to be people that are going to use that against him, despite these numbers and despite

Speaker 2 the metrics you put out there and how bad they are with these off the floor.

Speaker 2 There are going to be people that's, and that's why, honestly, that's why I didn't even consider Pascal Siakam James Harden. Like, for me, you got one team with five wins, one team with

Speaker 2 six.

Speaker 2 That's tough, man. You're winning 25% of your games.

Speaker 2 I didn't even really even look there as great as Siakam.

Speaker 1 I get it. I get it because there are no situations.

Speaker 1 I'm saying

Speaker 2 Aviya could trend in that direction, man.

Speaker 2 If they hit a six or seven game losing streak at some point, it's going to be tough for him to get in as well because I think winning should matter. It does matter.

Speaker 2 Right now, 9 to 15, like, okay, you're still kind of alive if your numbers are this good to be in it.

Speaker 2 But you might look up a month from now, and that, those numbers and that discrepancy between wins and losses might be too much for people to overcome in their minds.

Speaker 1 I'm, I would like to propose something to you. I think we should create a 13th for each conference all-star spot.
We don't, it doesn't matter where you're from.

Speaker 1 This is this, this is the, we're going to call it the Rodman spot. And now, Rodman made two all-star teams.

Speaker 1 You have to be averaging fewer than 10 points a game, and your team has to be above 500. We get to pick one such player every year from each conference.

Speaker 1 And like, because the guy that I would nominate, the top of mind guy is

Speaker 1 there's got to be something for what Stephen Adams is doing in Houston. The guy comes in and the entire game changes for the Rockets.
He gets every rebound. He's blocking shots at the rim.

Speaker 1 He's throwing passes. He can score a little bit if he gets offensive.

Speaker 1 And you can see, like, they played the Kings over the weekend. The Kings stink.
We know that. But he was faced off off against Maxine Reynaud, the guy that the rookie center, who's just,

Speaker 1 you have, like, I bet Stephen Adams walked into that game thinking, this poor guy, he's got

Speaker 1 no shot, man. I'm just going to bulldoze.
I'm going to bulldoze him into the second row and get every rebound. I think that's my proposal.
We got to have a Rodman all-star spot.

Speaker 1 And those are the rules. Left-handed.
I like that to be

Speaker 1 a lot. He's above 500.

Speaker 2 I like that a lot. I mean,

Speaker 2 to recognize a guy in that way that's so important to your team's success, but it's never going to have the kind of numbers that are going to ever get him in the real genuine conversation for the all-star game.

Speaker 2 That'd be, that would be, that would be tremendous.

Speaker 1 Maybe less than 12 points a game to open the door for a few more guys who, who can score a little bit, but I don't, we can and I'd have to, since you, since I didn't know you were going to hit me with that, I, I'm going to think about it.

Speaker 2 And the next time that we get together, we'll give our name for who that guy is.

Speaker 1 Well, mine is Stephen Adams in the west. No matter what.
All right. You got it.
In the East, I'd have to think about it.

Speaker 1 I mean, Mitchell Robinson is like a pretty close archetype, but he hasn't, he's missed a lot of games.

Speaker 1 I'd have to think a little bit. It's a stupid, like, the points cut off is

Speaker 1 maybe arbitrary. But

Speaker 1 anyway, Tim Legler,

Speaker 1 when do we next see you?

Speaker 1 We got the All City podcast. What's this?

Speaker 2 All Cities, yeah. All Cities a couple of days a week.
So that's usually typically Mondays and Wednesdays.

Speaker 2 Of course, doing stuff with you guys this year.

Speaker 2 But I'm not, as far as calling a game, you know, I'm, I'm the regular, regular game analyst now, but we lost a lot of time to Amazon and NBC.

Speaker 2 We had to give up some games, and a lot of those were here early in the year. So I called a game Thanksgiving Eve with my partners, Mike Breen and Richard Jefferson.

Speaker 2 You won't see us calling another game actually on anywhere on ESPN or ABC between Thanksgiving Eve and Christmas. So that's the next breakout day, five games on Christmas.
We'll have a big one.

Speaker 2 Houston at the Lakers. We've got Christmas Day.

Speaker 1 So that'll be the next game that i call can't wait for that and then after the first of the year we'll get back to our normal stuff well you'll be seeing me all the time on games well look the best in the business uh the ipad legend uh it's and it's been a great it's been a great fit you get in there and and and you just have fit right in with breen and rj and rj look i guess rj is like you know you you got to elbow in and get your words in when you're sitting next to rj but uh it's a great broadcast tim you're that you're the best appreciate your time well a lot of people have said that about me, too, over the years, Zach.

Speaker 2 So yes.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it's been great, man. Great chemistry, great dudes, building a great friendship.
The more reps we get, we cannot wait to see what we have in store in the second half of the season.

Speaker 2 I appreciate you having me. Always love talking with you, man.
You're as good as

Speaker 1 maybe you'll do the season finale thunder game and they'll have 73 wins. I thought that would be the last game.

Speaker 1 Maybe it'll be 79 and two going into their last game. Who the hell knows? Thanks, bud.

Speaker 2 You got it. See you.

Speaker 2 All right. That's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show.
We will be back later this week, probably on Thursday, with our usual second episode.

Speaker 2 Thanks to Jonathan, Mike, Billy, and Jesse on production. Thanks to you all for listening and watching the Zach Low Show.
Thanks to the great Tim Legler. We will see you all soon.

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