Six Big Questions With Stan Van Gundy

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Speaker 1 All right, coming up on the Zach Lowe show, a special guest. It's been a long time.

Speaker 1 One of my favorites to listen to, one of my favorites to talk to back when he was the coach of a whole bunch of NBA teams.

Speaker 1 I forgot about the Pelicans when i introduced him you'll see i omit the pelicans sorry pelicans stan van gundy amazon prime announcer extraordinaire is here and we're just bouncing around the nba this is coming out either tuesday night wednesday morning for your travel name he's just doing big picture questions with stan van gundy who's the mvp who are his finals picks houston and detroit how are they doing this with no three-point shooting relative to the league their 30th and 28th in three-point attempts you're supposed to need to shoot threes in the modern nba they don't what's happening what star player reintegration is Stan most interested in?

Speaker 1 Paolo, Trey, how's Paul George doing? And Philly, Tyler Hero, or none of the above? Does he go off the grid and pick something else? We talk about all these issues.

Speaker 1 We talk about Tyler Hero's first game with the Heat fitting in their revamped offense.

Speaker 1 Stan goes on a lot of tangents as he has want to do about NBA history and where guys sit in the all-time hierarchy. It's a great conversation about tactics.

Speaker 1 We get into a lot of tactics, how the league is changing into a possession game, what Stan is hearing from coaches around the league, how that's being implemented on the strategic level.

Speaker 1 It's an awesome conversation. Stan is the best that's coming up on the Zach Lowe Show.
Hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2 Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show.

Speaker 1 This is the episode for your travel health day needs, and we are joined by a very special guest, former head coach of the Miami Heat, Detroit Pistons, Orlando Magic, Amazon Prime analyst Desure, Stan Van Gundy.

Speaker 1 It has been too long. How are you, sir?

Speaker 2 I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 1 Happy Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2 Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Speaker 1 Thanksgiving and travel does remind me. I don't know if you ever heard what Jeff, your brother, said on my podcast years ago about his driving habits and his what he listens to or doesn't listen to.

Speaker 1 Well, he's this was when he was driving from Houston to the Orlando bubble. Are you aware of this?

Speaker 2 No, No, I am not.

Speaker 1 So I want to know if you share this with him or if you think this is, I got a lot of messages of concern from concerned fans about your brother's mental health when he revealed this.

Speaker 1 He said, I said, so what did you listen to on this 18-hour drive to Orlando? And he said, stone-cold silence. No music, no songs.
I just drove by myself in silence for 18 hours.

Speaker 1 That's what I like to do. There was a lot of concerned messages.
So do you share this habit or will you throw on a podcast? Or like, okay, you'll be a normal person.

Speaker 2 I'll have a podcast or music on, yeah, or NPR or something like that. But, yeah, I couldn't do.

Speaker 2 I mean, I enjoy the silence on a short trip sometimes, but

Speaker 2 no, not on that trip.

Speaker 1 All right, coach, we're going to go rapid fire through the league as we approach a big Thanksgiving for Amazon Black Friday. Hey, by the way, we're teammates now.

Speaker 2 This is

Speaker 2 that's exciting. Yeah, I

Speaker 2 really like

Speaker 2 what we have going there. I like the people that

Speaker 2 they have hired. I think we have a good team of knowledgeable people.

Speaker 2 The ex-players that they were able to hire have been fantastic and guys who are really committed to

Speaker 2 trying to do the job well and better and improving. It's just been a really committed group.
So it's been fun so far.

Speaker 1 I love it. All right.
Question number one. We're going to do like six big questions with Stan Van Gundy.
What did you think of Tyler Hero's return for the Miami Heat last night?

Speaker 1 They beat Dallas by four. The Heat were on the second end of a back-to-back hero, 24 points on 12 of 18 shooting.
And the whole, the question was,

Speaker 1 he's been a pretty heavy pick and roll ball handler.

Speaker 1 The Heat have now famously sort of de-emphasized the pick and roll in favor of this super high-octane, fast-paced, drive-and-kick, one-on-one offense that has vaulted them from kind of bottom five offense.

Speaker 1 They're 12th now.

Speaker 1 How do you think you fit?

Speaker 2 Well, first of all, I thought he was great. I mean, the first quarter, he got up to a slow start.
And I'm watching the Heat broadcast.

Speaker 2 And, you know, Eric Reid asked John Crotty, how long do you think it'll take to, you know, get him going, his legs under? And John said two weeks, which I thought was reasonable.

Speaker 2 And it really took till the second quarter. So,

Speaker 2 you know, he really got it going. I think the new style fits him fine.
I mean, yeah, they were running a lot of pick and rolls, but the bottom line is, is Tyler's game is to play off the dribble.

Speaker 2 And so it's perfect. And you talked about they're running fewer pick and rolls.
They're actually running fewer pick and rolls than anybody's ever run since they've started recording this.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 you know, that is really, it's an incredible, the whole heat transformation has been incredible from one of the slowest paced teams in the league to the fastest paced team in the league.

Speaker 2 We run a lot of pick and rolls. We don't run any pick and rolls.
I mean, it has really been a,

Speaker 2 I don't think I've ever seen that big a change without a coaching change

Speaker 2 ever.

Speaker 1 They were talking on the heat broadcast last night about the buy-in that these players have had to playing this way.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it struck me, it's an obvious point, but the heat is one of maybe three organizations in the entire league where you either buy in or you're not going to play for the team because the hierarchy of command is very clear.

Speaker 1 It's Riles and Spo. And like, there's no, there's not going to be like a rebellion.
There's not going to be, I don't want to do this. And it made me want to ask you,

Speaker 1 like, it's hard to play this fast. It's one of the reasons they've played 10, 11 guys.
And it'll be interesting to see if Spo kind of keeps doing that to keep people fresh.

Speaker 1 Did you ever have a team that you were like, I really kind of want to amp up the pace real fast? And the players, it was harder physically for them than

Speaker 1 two, three weeks in than they thought it was going to be, or they just didn't want to do it. Did you ever have that pace tug of war with the team?

Speaker 2 Well, I, you know, I think every coach wants to push the pace,

Speaker 2 but I never did anything close to the extreme of what Eric's doing. And I think the amazing thing is they've got the fourth best defense in the league.

Speaker 2 And I think what we normally see with the teams who really want to run up and down

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 they put their energy into the pace of the game offensively and they don't guard.

Speaker 2 And this team is defending very well and turning that into offense going the other way. They don't take a break.

Speaker 2 I've been amazed.

Speaker 2 They're in great shape and they haven't been at full strength yet because even with tyler hero coming back last night then they had norman powell was out jovich was out um andrew wiggins was out

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 they still haven't been at full at full pace and this is a team is just a lot better i think than

Speaker 2 probably at least most of us thought they were going to be i thought they'd be mediocre

Speaker 1 I wasn't really concerned about Hero's fit, but it was even cleaner than I thought. And it was like, I said yesterday, I was like, shooting is the answer to every question.

Speaker 1 If you're an elite shooter, it just solves every question. So you already could see him being like, Davion Mitchell drives.
I relocate five feet. This way, I get an open three.

Speaker 1 Or because I'm such a great shooter, you have to press me. And that opens up my one-on-one game, my first step.
And then I start the machine. Like, I think that's going to be fine.

Speaker 1 They ran a couple of set plays for him too that were like really stuck out. I was like, oh my God, the heater running like a traditional pick and roll set here.

Speaker 1 But to me, and I texted you about this last night, you mentioned all the guys that were out, and Spo's going to have a lot of tricky rotation decisions to make, starting with like what's the starting and closing five of the team.

Speaker 2 It's going to be a tough one because it was easy for the fit at least last night.

Speaker 2 The

Speaker 2 question is going to be to me, Tyler Hero and Norman Powell together. And

Speaker 2 neither one of them are elite level defenders.

Speaker 2 You know, they're both a little smallish, especially playing off the ball. And

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 that offense-defense balance, the sharing the ball, that's going to be, I think, the major fit question. Spoil will figure it out.
I don't see any problem, but

Speaker 2 it's

Speaker 2 that will be the question we'll probably be watching going forward in terms of fit.

Speaker 1 I think you probably got to start both of them and then just stagger it pretty extremely. But to me,

Speaker 1 more interesting

Speaker 1 is the Khalil Ware leap that is happening right now is a real thing on both ends of the floor. He's just turned into, I don't know what they did to light a fire under him.
He's getting every rebound.

Speaker 1 He's all of a sudden a lot more disciplined, defensively staying down, playing cat and mouse. And like the rim protection, it's trending toward being a little bit scary.
His three is getting better.

Speaker 1 The Bam Ware fit

Speaker 1 has been just okay through now two seasons together. They were about a net even last year at their minus, I think, 14 and 84 minutes so far.
This year, I would toss that in the garbage.

Speaker 1 I would, I mean, I love Bam. Bam is a winner.
I love what I'm seeing from Ware. I think they can complement each other in this or any other system.

Speaker 1 I want to let this marinate for quite a long time to see how they fit. But I do think Ware's leap has been so dramatic in the last couple of weeks that

Speaker 1 you do have to start thinking about how well do they fit together? What's the best way to use them together? As a coach, what do you see? How does that pairing work? What are its shortcomings?

Speaker 1 What are you looking for when they share the floor?

Speaker 2 Yeah, look, I mean, I think the way the heat are playing,

Speaker 2 it's not a natural fit on the offensive end of the floor

Speaker 2 because Ware has played great and everything you said about Bam is true. But neither one of those guys are great off the dribble.

Speaker 2 Bam against centers can play pretty well off the dribble,

Speaker 2 but when they play him together and now he's being guarded by a perimeter guy, he's not going to beat people off the dribble.

Speaker 2 And even though both of them are starting to shoot the three,

Speaker 2 nobody's at this point anyway, I would not think any other coaches are really scared of them. So I think the spacing when they're out there together is not going to be optimal.

Speaker 2 And I think going forward,

Speaker 2 key moments in in games, especially, I think it'll be with one of them on the floor. Now, defensively, the fit is fine because they're both versatile defenders.
They both move their feet.

Speaker 2 Bam can guard every position on the floor. That's fine.
They can hang their hat there.

Speaker 2 And I would think that in a minute's thing, that if they can do what they did last year, like you said, and just sort of be even when they're both on the floor and then gain their edge when one of them is on the floor.

Speaker 2 I think that's how they're going to, that's how they're going to beat people. But where is,

Speaker 2 look, they've done an incredible job. I think the Heat over the years, as you know, has done about as good a job of developing players as anyone in the league.

Speaker 2 I think it starts with they really create a vision for guys. of what they can be and they work toward that.
So I go back to Duncan Robinson.

Speaker 2 I think a lot of people would have brought Duncan Robinson in and just seen him as a spot-up shooter. Three and

Speaker 2 a guy who goes down and stands in the corner. That's not the vision they saw for him.
They saw him on the move, shooting the ball. And that's how they played him and developed him from early on.

Speaker 2 And he became a much better player and a much better threat. And I think they've had a vision for Khalil Ware since they got him.
Malik Allen on the staff is the guy who works with him all the time.

Speaker 2 They've spent a ton of time together.

Speaker 2 Last year,

Speaker 2 we were in Indiana. Malik brought Khalil Ware to the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks to be able to sit there and talk to him about what that level is all about.

Speaker 2 They've invested heavily in both Malik and Khalil and that thing. And

Speaker 2 yeah, his development has been fun to watch. I mean, this last, what, seven or eight games, he's been as dominant as any big guy in the league.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is, this is a legitimate leap happening right before our eyes. It looks sustainable to me.

Speaker 1 And it's not just like the gobbling up of rebounds. He's had more than 10 rebounds in 10 straight games, I think, and over 15 in a couple of those games.
He had a 20 rebound game.

Speaker 1 It's the discipline that he's playing with. You know, he's still going to be tempted to just jump for everything, but he's really dialing that back.

Speaker 1 Like late in that game, PJ Washington drove from the, from the left corner. You saw this play, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, unbelievable.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 Ware was on whatever, whoever was playing center in the dunker spot. And PJ got into the paint, and you just knew Khaled Ware is going to chase this jump hook.
He's going to jump for it.

Speaker 1 It's going to leave the defensive glass naked.

Speaker 1 And he stunted a little bit and then sat back and PJ Washington missed the hook and he went up and got the rebound. I was like, God, Dave, so you saw the same thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and, you know listen i i i say all the one thing that i have thought

Speaker 2 from the beginning of my time in the nba

Speaker 2 what separates players from each other people look at nba players and i think they see size athleticism skills And that's the comparison.

Speaker 2 And obviously, you got to have all those things at some level to be a very good NBA player. But I think what separates guys is decision making.
The best players are the best decision makers.

Speaker 2 Huey Brown used to say,

Speaker 2 it's not who can shoot, who can pass, and who can dribble. It's the guys who know when to shoot, when to pass, and when to dribble.

Speaker 2 And so what you're talking about for Khalil Ware, yeah, anybody, not anybody, but a lot of guys can go up and block a shot and a lot of guys can go get a defensive rebound.

Speaker 2 But that decision making that you're talking about on the play last night, that's what sets apart players. It's the same on offense.

Speaker 2 Like I had Dwayne Wade early on, came in the league, not a great shooter or anything, but still was very efficient. Why? He could get to the shots he wanted.

Speaker 2 And he made great decisions on what shots to shoot. So he was a 50%.

Speaker 2 shooter from the time he walked in the league because he was a great decision maker. And I think that's what fans miss on NBA players.
And I think sometimes they see great talent.

Speaker 2 Oh, that guy should be playing more. Why isn't he more successful? It's decisions at each end.
And that's what separates guys. Khalil Ware's getting there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So the three takeaways for me for the heat going forward are

Speaker 1 they're even better. I was a heat optimist, and they're even better than I thought.
And what does that do to their calculus at the trade deadline? How aggressive might they get?

Speaker 1 Number two, is this finally going to be the year that Eric Spolscher wins coach of the year? And number three,

Speaker 1 the bam where fit is now

Speaker 1 a much more interesting storyline to me if I'm in the heat brain trust. Again, I'm not rushing to make any decision.
I'm not saying I'm sending either one of them out the door. Far from it.

Speaker 1 I'm more like I got to see this work at a higher level going forward because I want both of these guys to play tons of minutes together. Okay, question number two.
You ready?

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 Most interesting, leave hero aside, most interesting all-star reintegration either happening now or about to happen.

Speaker 1 Paolo Bancaro to an Orlando team that's been scoring better without him or about as well anyway?

Speaker 1 Trey Young coming back to a Hawks team that's 9-4 without him? Or early returns on Paul George fitting in at Philadelphia? What's most interesting to you?

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to go none of the above.

Speaker 1 Okay, I love it.

Speaker 2 None of the above. And the most interesting thing to me, the most interesting reintegration is LeBron to the Lakers.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. I love this.

Speaker 2 Well, because I think, look,

Speaker 2 you're talking one of the greatest players in history,

Speaker 2 maybe the greatest player in history, coming back, but he's always been at his best with the ball in his hands, making plays.

Speaker 2 And now you've got two guys in Donchich and Reeves off to great starts, and they both excel with the ball in their hands. None of those guys, none of the three of them are off the ball players.

Speaker 2 None of the three of them at this point, because of LeBron's age, none of the three of them are plus defenders.

Speaker 2 And so now, instead of putting defensive-minded guys,

Speaker 2 and guys who can play without the ball around Donchich and Reeves, now we've got three ball dominant guys who are in my opinion minus defenders i don't know like the lakers

Speaker 2 i don't know if they're real or not i i think they're real in the sense of donchich but

Speaker 2 they're 12 and 4 but their underlying numbers tell you that they're pretty mediocre. I mean, they're 14th offensively and 14th defensively.
That shouldn't add up to 12 and 4. But

Speaker 2 I think they'll continue to win a lot of close games because

Speaker 2 they've got finishers like that.

Speaker 2 To me, and I've said this before and been criticized for it, I think Luca

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 the best offensive player. I have ever seen in the NBA.
I don't think there's a better offensive player ever. There is nothing the guy can't do.

Speaker 2 He handles, he passes, he posts up, he drives the ball, he shoots it from deep, he can get to the free throw line. I can't think of another guy that has that at his size playing the point.

Speaker 2 And so at the end of the game, you know, they're always going to be able to get a good shot. Always.

Speaker 2 Always.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, their margins may be small and they may be able to continue to win close games, but they certainly have not looked even at 12 and 4 to me like a dominant team.

Speaker 1 They are must-watch TV for me every game now with LeBron back.

Speaker 1 They were Bill and I did our revised quarter pole league pass rankings last week, and I had them number one, or I had them number two behind the Nuggets, I guess.

Speaker 1 um because of jolkic uh they've played twice with lebron both against utah they play the clippers tonight tonight. Unclear if Aiden's, I think Aiden's listed is out, actually.

Speaker 1 What have you seen though? I assume you've been watching those two games. What have you seen of the early returns on those three guys playing together?

Speaker 2 It's been good, but

Speaker 2 the hard thing is, and you just said it, I mean, Utah is not a very good team, and they're especially poor at the defensive end of the floor. And so things have been easy.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't think it's a good way to judge.

Speaker 2 LeBron, you know, they've said for years,

Speaker 2 we want LeBron to have to handle less, play off the ball more. That's all well and good.

Speaker 2 The bottom line is Reeves isn't bad with

Speaker 2 off the ball. Like he'll cut occasionally.
The other two guys, Luca and LeBron, literally do nothing off the ball. And so

Speaker 2 that offense could get stagnant.

Speaker 2 Defensively, when you talk about, you know, we're going to go play the best teams, if you're going to try to finish with those three guys, who's guarding Shea Gilgis Alexander? Who's, you know,

Speaker 2 I just think there's, look, I think they're good, and I think JJ's done a fabulous job putting it all together here early in the season.

Speaker 2 I just don't know when we get to playoff time and it becomes very matchup oriented and everything. I think there's more to see with them.
Plus, as we know, they still don't have a lot of shooting.

Speaker 2 You know, they still don't have a lot of shooting. So I don't know.
I think they're a big question mark. They're going to be good.
They're going to be in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 Nobody's going to want to see them. I get that.
But I don't think they rise. To me right now, I don't see them rise into the level of OKC Denver.
And to me, Houston's been a huge, huge surprise.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they are the.

Speaker 1 could be competitive in any series in the Western Conference. Hard to see them winning three to get to the finals.

Speaker 1 But given, and that's with LeBron's age, with the defensive concerns, you just outlined like who's guarding the point of attack in this starting five.

Speaker 1 I think the offensive fit has been awesome so far. They've leaned into the right play calls, mismatch hunting.
LeBron's been kind of active off the ball here and there.

Speaker 1 But as you said, that's two games against Utah. What happens when we're 20 games in? The opposition gets better.
That's what I'm waiting to see.

Speaker 1 Can I answer my own question that you went none of the above on?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 To me, it's Trey Young, and it's not close because I think we all know the Magic need Paolo Bancaro.

Speaker 1 And I think it's easier for him to tweak his game 10% towards, you know, setting screens, making the extra pass while still being Paolo in that offense. And Paul George has been fine.
He's fit in.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's Maxi's team now. He's not forcing anything.
And how he does when Maxie and Embiid are on the bench is another question. But he looks, Paul George looks pretty good to me.

Speaker 1 He's had some explosive takes to the rim.

Speaker 1 Trey,

Speaker 1 I mean, this team could be really good if Trey Young buys into the same, can I tweak my game 15%? I'm never going to be,

Speaker 1 I'm always going to be a heavy pick and roll guy. I'm always going to be a small guy.
I'm always going to be a guy that likes to take logo threes and all that.

Speaker 1 But watching this team play a more egalitarian system, a more like pass, exchange, drive, kick, random screens, mismatch hunting, unlock Jalen Johnson a little bit.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, Nikhil Alexander can do a little bit more with the ball than maybe we thought. Unlock Porzingis, the Kongu.
Like, can I blend in? Can I beat Trey while blending in a little bit more?

Speaker 1 Because that, to me, takes their ceiling towards in an Eastern conference where the best teams on paper have not played like the best teams yet. Their ceiling gets pretty high to me.

Speaker 1 I don't, maybe you're a Hawks skeptic. I'm a Hawks optimist.

Speaker 2 No, I, I, but I'm with you on the Trey thing because to me, the other thing that they've had without Trey is their defense has been a lot better. Part of that is they're bigger on the floor.

Speaker 2 So, you know, everybody goes in against Atlanta with the same offensive game plan. Like they're going to put Trey in every play and they're going to attack him and everything else.

Speaker 2 And Quinn Snyder and the other guys on the floor have got to work to hide Trey Young all the time, defensively. And they haven't had to do that.

Speaker 2 I mean, Nikhil Alexander Walker is an outstanding on-the-ball defender. We know about Dyson Daniels.
And then they've got great size up front.

Speaker 2 This is a legitimate defensive team as they go, as they continue to progress. With Trey,

Speaker 2 I think their ceiling as a defensive team is mediocre. Now, can he do what you're talking about and make tweaks to his game so that they become

Speaker 2 an above-average offensive team to offset that? Again, I think they're a...

Speaker 1 like it'd have to be like top seven offensive team. They're 11th in the since Trey went out.
They're 11th in offense, which is like super encouraging.

Speaker 2 I think they're better

Speaker 2 without Trey Young. And I say that as a guy.
There you go. I've said that every, I say it every year when I watch them.
And

Speaker 2 I'm not a Trey hater. As a matter of fact, if you give me, you give me money and I've got money to go see, to buy a ticket and I can go to three games.
That's what I've got.

Speaker 2 Trey's one of the guys I'm going to go watch. I think the guy to watch him play his,

Speaker 2 forget the long range shooting, the passes he makes, the creativity. I think he is a great watch.
I love turning on the Hawks and watching Trey Young pick defenses apart. I love him.

Speaker 2 But I think they're better. This team is is better without him.

Speaker 2 It doesn't mean every team is going to be better without him, because some teams are going to have more need in where he, you know, in what he does and everything else.

Speaker 2 But look, the league has changed and positional size is a big, big deal now.

Speaker 2 With all the switching you have to do to combat these offenses,

Speaker 2 you know, I think the really small guys like Trey become a defensive challenge, and they better be great, great, great at the offensive end.

Speaker 2 And his efficiency is not always great at the offensive end. So I like their team better without him.
And I say that as a guy who's not hating on Trey Young at all.

Speaker 1 Well, that it

Speaker 1 we disagree a little bit in that sense because I just think they need his offensive pop to get their ceiling, like to be like a finals threat. But I

Speaker 1 definitely reasonable people can look at this and agree with you, which makes this, I think, maybe the most interesting personnel question in the league for the next three months is what do they want to do with Trey Young, who's extension eligible.

Speaker 1 There's been no chatter about it at all.

Speaker 1 And to your point, like the trade market for a small point guard, as good as he is, it might be a little bit more limited than the Hawks would need it to be. to make a big move like that.

Speaker 1 They also have this recent, like Risachet, I think,

Speaker 1 needs to start leveling up a a little bit on offense and as a shooter for this thing to really, really work without Trey Young. But it's early.
I mean, he's like 20 years old.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's not a fair thing to ask.

Speaker 2 Well, no, and I thought he made significant improvement over the course of last season, but I agree with you. We haven't seen that continue so far this year.

Speaker 2 I think also young players, and you know this, I think

Speaker 2 when you have changes, and so now they've got Porzingis, so he's more involved they haven't had Trey you're playing with other people the game develops differently I think that can stagnate young guys for a little bit I'm a Reese Shea fan me too but you're right he has not made a jump so far this year and and they need that

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Speaker 1 Okay, this is the big question, question three that I'm most excited to ask you.

Speaker 1 You were ahead of your time with Orlando in particular going more in on the three-point shot. Spread, pick, and roll.
Let's up our three-point volume.

Speaker 1 That has only, as everyone knows, gone up exponentially since that. That's 15, 20 years ago now.
Everyone shoots a million threes.

Speaker 1 And yet, coach, what do you make of the Rockets dead last in three-point three-point attempts, number one offense in the NBA, the Detroit Pistons 28th in three-point attempts, number seven offense in the NBA on a 13-game winning streak, matching their franchise record set twice both years they won the championships?

Speaker 1 These teams are not taking threes. We know the other ways in which, particularly with Houston's offensive rebounding, they're compensating.
My question is kind of like, A, what do you make of this?

Speaker 1 And B,

Speaker 1 do you have any concerns about how much of this works in the postseason versus the regular season?

Speaker 1 Or are these two teams just so good at what they do with their size, their physicality, whatever you think they're doing to compensate for not having the thing that everyone supposedly has to have in high volume now for that, that they'll be fine no matter what the circumstance?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 there's a lot there. I think, first of all, I think what we see in that regard sort of,

Speaker 2 and this year has been good and interesting at the front. And, you know, there's been this

Speaker 2 criticism of the NBA from a lot of people that everybody plays the same.

Speaker 2 You know, everybody, it's just not true. Everybody doesn't play the same.

Speaker 1 But it's dramatically not true this season.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree. And it's been even more so.
But even last year, you look and,

Speaker 2 you know, Denver was the number four offensive team in the league and dead last in three-point attempts. There's a lot of ways to get things done.

Speaker 2 And Denver, by the way, as far as postseason, you know, took Oklahoma City to seven games and weren't nearly as deep as they are now. There's a lot of different ways to play.
I do think,

Speaker 2 though, you make a great point in that

Speaker 2 you can get by with less shooting in the regular season

Speaker 2 than you can in the postseason because of preparation time and everything else. Plus, the pace of the game tends to slow a little bit.

Speaker 2 You're in the half court, and I think Kevin Durant's going to get less and less room on the floor.

Speaker 2 You know, those things are going to happen. But

Speaker 2 You know, I think for right now anyway, that will all play out.

Speaker 2 But wow, is it fun to watch people get things done in a different way? You know, you got Cleveland coming down, firing threes more than anybody in the league.

Speaker 2 And then you've got Houston shooting the fewest, but

Speaker 2 the highest percentage in the league.

Speaker 1 Gotta make them.

Speaker 2 The bottom line is whatever shots you get, you gotta make. at some level.
So you have to be able to shoot the ball. Houston can

Speaker 2 do that. It's going going to be interesting to watch.
I think

Speaker 2 what's really become interesting in the league is we know about the increased three-pointers over time, and that's not really going anywhere. The three is still going to be a big part of it.

Speaker 2 But the thing that has probably taken the biggest jump is offensive rebounding. You know, I went back and looked at this the other day.
And so the

Speaker 2 2020-21 season, so the year I was in New Orleans, Orleans, we were the only team in the league that

Speaker 2 had

Speaker 2 got 30% or more off the offensive board. And we were barely over 30.
Okay, now we got two teams over 40% off the offensive board, 18 teams over 30%,

Speaker 2 and another four teams at 29% on the offensive board.

Speaker 2 The currency of the NBA now, and even when you listen to the coaches, is possessions, getting more shots than the other team. That has become much more of a big deal than efficiency with coaches.

Speaker 2 It's getting more shots. Talking to Kenny Atkinson the other night before the Cleveland game, they've changed the way they teach defense.

Speaker 2 You know, they used to put a premium on not fouling, you know, because the... free throws are the most efficient shot in the league.
And so, you know, hands back, don't be reaching.

Speaker 2 No, now they go after the ball. That ball comes into the gap.
They're reaching up. They're reaching down.
He talked about looking at NFL cornerbacks in how they try to strip the ball from people,

Speaker 2 you know, after the catch.

Speaker 2 And what does that mean? They're fouling more sending people to the line, but that's obviously not threes in most cases, you know. and they're creating enough turnovers to offset it.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think Oklahoma City might have given up the most free throw attempts in the league last year,

Speaker 2 if not very, very close, but they also forced the most turnovers. So the currency of the league and just the overall

Speaker 2 analytical approach is leading to some different things. And then I think on the personnel side, what a lot of teams are finding out

Speaker 2 sort of by chance

Speaker 2 is we have always thought, I'm not going to say we, I have always thought, and I think a lot of people, that even as we've gotten to positionless basketball, that you got to have a point guard.

Speaker 2 And now we're seeing with injuries, teams having to play without a point guard and playing very successfully. We just talked about Atlanta, no true point guard there.

Speaker 2 Houston, all year, it's a Minn Thompson as their point.

Speaker 2 So I think getting size across the board out there has proven more valuable than the quintessential point guard. So I think the league is changing and I think that's exciting.

Speaker 2 And I think coaches are and organizations are looking at, okay, how do we get an edge?

Speaker 2 It was funny listening to Kenney the other night because Kenny's been one of those guys who's always trying to be ahead of the game.

Speaker 2 And you could, he was like, disappointed in himself, you could tell that Oklahoma City got the jump on everybody about

Speaker 2 creating turnovers and not worrying about fouls being the way to go.

Speaker 2 So I just

Speaker 2 like you, I mean, you and I are sort of geeks when it comes to basketball. And I have loved the early start of the season.
Different styles. The game seems to be changing around the league.

Speaker 2 That's been just a lot of fun to watch for me.

Speaker 1 Okay, you said a lot of interesting stuff there. Number one, the fouls versus steals trade-off is Orlando was doing this last year with Jamal Mosley, too.

Speaker 1 He's like, if you're going to hack the hell out of people, you better be getting a lot of steals. Otherwise, the math is going to go against you.

Speaker 1 And B, you're also betting on, and this is what you hear other teams sort of whisper about the thunder. Like the refs are not going to call all the fouls.
So you're betting on, you're betting on that.

Speaker 1 Number, the, the other thing, um, offensive rebounding, Houston's first by a mile, Detroit is fifth. Possession game, possession math.

Speaker 1 If either of the, and Detroit, by the way, is second in forcing turnovers. So they're tilting that turnovers and rebounding toward them.

Speaker 1 Both of these teams are below average at taking care of the ball on offense. Detroit's 16th, so they're about average.
Houston is 20th.

Speaker 1 Boy, oh boy, if either of those teams cleans that up and tilts the possession math even more dramatically toward them, this whole sort of mathematical model starts to work.

Speaker 1 I love watching both these teams play. Detroit, I mean,

Speaker 1 they are whatever, something in two. I don't remember anymore.
15 and two.

Speaker 2 15 and two, yeah.

Speaker 1 Ivy's back

Speaker 1 has looked great,

Speaker 1 staggered with Cade and played a little bit with Cade. They actually ran some two-man game in Indiana last night.
Tobias Harris is back, add some shooting that they need.

Speaker 1 Just a lot of optionality.

Speaker 1 Like Dannis Jenkins, who's been amazing for them, didn't even play in the second half last night they all of a sudden have a lot of depth i've been borderline obsessed with the idea of them trading for marketing but even if that doesn't happen now that they're at full street even if there's no big trade that happens not maybe not even a small marginal trade they have like a lot of guys right now um the guy that i'm watching the most is asar thompson um how how have you seen his game evolving and and how does his game because look when they play him with durin and just one other so-so shooter, the spacing for Cade is just going to be what it is.

Speaker 1 It's not going to be great. How do they compensate for that? Like, what do you need to see from Massar Thompson to take this team seriously as a finals threat?

Speaker 1 Or maybe they already are a finals threat. I don't know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know. We haven't seen enough probably to say that.

Speaker 2 Everything we've seen has been good. I do think the interesting thing with them, Rick Carlisle made this point last year

Speaker 2 after

Speaker 2 in the offseason, early in the offseason, after they had made their run to the finals. He thinks the league is changing.
And

Speaker 2 it's not a

Speaker 2 just a star league. You know, we used to always, oh, you put the big three together and then you sort of fill in around them,

Speaker 2 you know, and it's not just a starting lineup league. Like with all the injuries, the pace up, everything else, he said it is a pace and play hard league now.
And Detroit's got that sort of team.

Speaker 2 They can run a lot of guys at you and keep the pace up.

Speaker 2 And so I like them. I think Cade is obviously has risen.
He's a legitimate star. Asar Thompson,

Speaker 2 I think JB, who's been an underrated coach for a long time in the league, is

Speaker 2 doing a really good job with them. They're trying to get him to at least stay on the move offensively and cut.

Speaker 2 If you're standing still as a non-shooter, then you're a major liability.

Speaker 2 But if you can, your guy loses vision, you cut, get a layup, anything that keeps people at least having to pay attention to you helps.

Speaker 2 He's almost as good as his brother defensively, if not as good.

Speaker 2 He runs the floor. He's got a lot of good things, but you said it earlier about shooting right off the bat, and it's true.

Speaker 2 And when you see guys make a jump in this league, most often it's their shooting that makes a jump. And that's where he's got to get to.
Can he do it this year? I don't know.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I like that team.

Speaker 2 The East has been really interesting.

Speaker 2 Everybody thought, oh, two-team race, Cleveland and New York, Detroit, Toronto, Orlando's starting to come on now miami atlanta like you talked about philly like i know look you just expect philly's gonna get hurt again in bi's out and but let's face it if embed gets healthy with what they're doing with those guards

Speaker 2 They could be a threat. The East is wide open right now.
It's not a Cleveland, New York two-team battle. Definitely not.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 I've reached a point with the Pistons where it's like, yeah, they could make the finals.

Speaker 1 I think that's on the table for them.

Speaker 1 With Asar, I thought we'd see a little bit more of him as like not to this level, but a little bit more of like the Draymond thing where, okay, you're not guarding me.

Speaker 1 I'm going to be a handoff hub and we're going to turn the corner and punish you that way.

Speaker 1 But the thing with one of the big like trickle-down effects of Durin making this kind of huge leap as a one-on-one player and just like a just a brute, a brute, an Adonis, a tank is you don't see teams putting their centers on Asar Thompson anymore and just saying, we're going to rove with our biggest defender off of you and put a power forward or a wing on Jalen Duran because he's just going to put that dude in the basket.

Speaker 1 You can't do it. The other thing before we move on, I'm wondering when I watch these teams,

Speaker 1 Detroit and Houston, you know, traditionally non-shooting teams, shaky shooting teams, you can go zone against them.

Speaker 1 I think teams are scared to go zone against them because of the rebounding, because you unlock their offensive rebounding. And going back all the way to Miami, I forgot to ask you about this.

Speaker 1 Miami has faced the most zone in the league this year. And I think it's because if I had to guess what's in coaches' heads, it's well, their offense is now predicated on one-on-one driving.

Speaker 1 Let's take the one-on-one driving away by playing zone. I don't think that's going to work against them because it just gives them gaps to drive right off the bat.
And they're carving up zones.

Speaker 1 But I don't like, I don't think you could really afford to play zone against Houston or Detroit because they're going to rebound half their own misses. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow.

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Speaker 1 Next big question for Stan Van Gundy: more real as a playoff threat, the Toronto Raptors or the Phoenix Suns?

Speaker 2 I'm going to say the Toronto Raptors. I mean, I look, and right now, look, they're one of six teams in the league that is in the

Speaker 2 top six.

Speaker 2 I mean, in the top 10, both offensively and defensively. You know, Phoenix is 13th offensively, 12th defensively.
The East isn't as strong as the West.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I just think they've got some similar issues, but Toronto, look, they've swept Cleveland already. I mean, they've beaten them all three times this year.

Speaker 2 Cleveland's supposed to be the best team in the East, a team that won 64 games last year and the whole thing.

Speaker 1 They've been missing guys in all three games. But one, they were, I think it was everybody but Garland played.
One, they almost had everybody. But the point remains, rappers are missing Barry.

Speaker 2 Everybody. Like, come on, Zach.
You and I watch a lot of games. You never turn on a game and watch two teams at full strength playing in each other.

Speaker 2 And that's why one of the points that Rick Carlisle had made was you better have depth on your roster because you're not, you know, it will always say, well, when they get him back, well, I guarantee you, I don't care who we're talking about, when they get him back, somebody else going out.

Speaker 2 That's just the way it is now.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 I like Toronto again, a team that has got great positional size,

Speaker 2 which to me, I mean, Purdle's a very underrated player in the middle at both ends of the floor. But Brandon Ingram, Scotty Barnes, R.J.
Barrett, you know, they've got size. They lack some shooting.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 again,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 they're a little bit like Houston. Okay, they're not going to shoot any threes, but they make the ones they take.
So they're 27th in attempts, but they're sixth in percentage. And

Speaker 2 they're a fun team to watch because they're one of those teams where you just don't think they should be as good as they are.

Speaker 2 But sorry, okay.

Speaker 2 So yeah, Cleveland's missing guys. Well, you know what? They were missing R.J.
Barrett last night. It's not like they're out there at full strength every night either.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they're a legit. I'd be shocked the way things are going now if they're not in the playoffs in the

Speaker 2 East. And I would be shocked if Phoenix was in the playoffs in the West.
But Phoenix, the one thing with Phoenix is

Speaker 2 they're the hardest playing team in the league. In what I've seen, they are the hardest playing team in the league.

Speaker 2 What Jordan Odd has done there is he's gotten total buy-in and

Speaker 2 Steve Clifford's a consultant there and so has seen that.

Speaker 1 I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and Steve said that the time he's been there, the one thing he pointed out, he said

Speaker 2 Devin Booker may be as good a leader as he's ever seen.

Speaker 2 You know, both by example and what he says, but total buy-in from him at both ends of the floor, defending really hard on top of the offense, trying to get other guys involved, just all about team success plus his professionalism and work ethic

Speaker 2 every day.

Speaker 2 You know, it always drives me crazy when

Speaker 2 people talk about Devin Booker. I have great respect for the guy.
And if I had drafted him in Detroit, I might still be coaching, Zach. Oh, boy.
But I did not.

Speaker 2 So every time, every time Devin Booker has a great game, I'm like, I kick myself, physically kick myself to make sure I feel that pain.

Speaker 1 Is that Kennard or is that Stanley Johnson? Because there's a Booker.

Speaker 2 Stanley Johnson. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I passed on

Speaker 2 Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell. And

Speaker 2 that's why I'm broadcasting now.

Speaker 1 You're sitting in a very nice home stand and everything looks great in your life. You look great.

Speaker 2 It's a home that

Speaker 2 Dwayne Wade got me in Miami, you know, and then Dwight Howard continued to, so I could make payments on it.

Speaker 1 By the way, I see the Christmas bows are already hung up. I see the Mary sign back there.
I mean, are you doing that yourself? Are you the decorator of the house?

Speaker 2 Absolutely not. My youngest daughter lives about seven miles from here and works for me, maintaining everything because I'm incapable of taking care of anything.

Speaker 2 And while I was gone last week to visit her her siblings in Michigan, she came in and got my house decorated.

Speaker 1 I've been doing a recurring segment on the podcast called Zach Lowe's Insights to Mediocrity, which is my way of poking fun at Michael Jordan's Insights to Excellence, which have just been, you know, load management's bad.

Speaker 1 I'm Michael Jordan.

Speaker 1 And so I could recruit you for this because a lot of my insights to mediocrity about how I'm just, I can't do anything around the house, I'm like a completely useless person in the house.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And, you know, my wife was very, very handy

Speaker 2 and did a lot of things.

Speaker 2 And when she passed, yeah, my daughter took over and she makes sure that everything keeps running smoothly. So this is all Kelly's work right here.

Speaker 2 I have one job and that is I've got to get a tree. And so I got to work on that today when I get off with you, get a tree here, which then she will come in and decorate.

Speaker 1 So you got to get the tree. You got to work on that.
Do some research.

Speaker 2 You got to get the tree. That's all I got to do.

Speaker 1 The answer to my own question for me is also Toronto, but they're like broadly similar teams in a lot of ways. Number one, obviously they're playing above expectations.

Speaker 1 They've each had somewhat easy schedules.

Speaker 1 Both of them are shooting like gangbusters from everywhere on the court. Both of them, their opponents are shooting pretty badly from three.
You think both of those things will regress a little bit.

Speaker 1 I just think Toronto is a little bit better and they're in the weaker conference. And their next 10 games, by the way, Indiana, winnable.
Charlotte, winnable.

Speaker 1 Oh, they're all winnable, but New York, we'll see. Portland, Lakers, Charlotte again.
Boston, Milwaukee, we'll see if Giannis is back probably by then, hopefully. Boston again, Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 I mean, they could be, I think that was 10 games. There'll be 28 games in.
They could be 20 and 8 after 28 games. Like, that's a big time head start once the schedule flips a little bit.

Speaker 2 It really is. And people, you know, there's the one take on schedules always is, well, over the course of the year, everything evens out.
I think what people miss on that is

Speaker 2 when you're Toronto and you're coming off, you know, you were not in the playoffs a year ago, and you start winning regardless of what the schedule is, the confidence goes up.

Speaker 2 And you become maybe better than you should be because people really start to believe in what's going on. So those early early season schedule things can help you and it does make a difference.

Speaker 2 It's not just, well, over the course of 82 games, it all evens out. It does to a degree, but boy, you want to get off to that good start.

Speaker 2 Plus, most teams, other than the absolute best, Oklahoma City will not have a major slump this year, but Denver will probably not have a major slump this year.

Speaker 2 But most teams are going to have a slump. Well, you know what?

Speaker 2 When you have your slump and you go two and eight and you look up and you're still eight or ten games above 500, it doesn't feel the same as when you start the year at two and eight and then you don't believe you're any good.

Speaker 2 I think that's the psychology of it that people don't really understand. You're absolutely right on Toronto.
They think they're really, really good right now.

Speaker 2 They're not looking and saying, oh, well, our schedule's been soft. No, they're thinking, geez, we're playing great.
We're a really good team. And that belief can carry you a long way.

Speaker 1 So I want you to take this a step further because I call these feedback loop teams. And what I mean by that is not just that the winning inspires everybody to play harder.

Speaker 1 It's that you look at Miami qualifies for this. Toronto has a bunch of guys who have been alphas or lead ball handlers in their careers.

Speaker 1 People have to, players have to buy in. to roles that might make them uncomfortable, right? And players think about numbers, contracts, all of these variables that are swirling around them.

Speaker 1 Agents are talking to them, et cetera. And they sometimes, it can sometimes be hard for them to remember, like winning is the thing that lifts all boats.
If we win, everyone's going to get paid.

Speaker 1 Everyone's going to be successful. And I wonder from a coaching perspective, what I mean by feedback, Loop team, is not just we believe in ourselves as a team because of our record.
It's, okay.

Speaker 1 This thing that the coach is preaching that maybe Emmanuel Quickley or Scotty Barnes or Tyler Hero or whoever it is was like slightly like, ah, that's not the way we used to be playing.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, it works. I'm going to buy into it even more.
And it just sort of becomes this boulder rolling down the hill of more buy-in, better execution, more winning.

Speaker 1 Like there's always a couple feedback loop teams like this every year. Each of these teams is a candidate, but I want like,

Speaker 1 as a coach, getting players to buy in.

Speaker 2 to things that make them a little uncomfortable winning must ease that process and like get that boulder rolling right is that a real thing absolutely you know and especially when you're either a new coach or you've made a big change like Miami did I mean everybody believes in Spo anyway I mean he's proven himself but he made a huge change Toronto's trying something new Phoenix Jordan Ott comes in you win early you get buy-in then whatever the problems start to creep in you you need to make other adjustments as the season goes on.

Speaker 2 Well, you've got a group of guys that buys into you know what you're doing. And so they trust whatever adjustments you have to make.
It all goes hand in hand.

Speaker 2 I mean, the early season is really, really important, I think. And it doesn't mean all these things are going to sustain over the course of the year, but that belief does.

Speaker 2 And I like your term, the feedback loop, because I think it's really, really true. I mean, I think other teams start to doubt themselves.
It goes the other other way.

Speaker 2 Like, oh, I thought we were going to be good. This isn't working.
And now it gets harder to get that buy-in.

Speaker 1 You have an awards ballot again this year, right?

Speaker 2 Well, I would think, but I don't know. Nobody's told me for sure.

Speaker 1 I know the awards are not necessarily your favorite thing about the NBA discourse, but I talked about this on Monday with Howard Beck.

Speaker 1 The four guys at the head of the MVP race right now, and if you want to throw Wemby in, I think he's the fifth guy, but

Speaker 1 Jokic, Shea, Giannis, Luca

Speaker 1 are just, it's just outrageous across the board what they're doing statistically, their on-off numbers for their respective teams.

Speaker 1 I think we've seen now Milwaukee has lost three or four in a row without Giannis. And like, if I'm Giannis, I'm watching that.
Oh, boy.

Speaker 2 Uh-oh.

Speaker 1 But that's a, we'll park that storyline over here. Who is your quarterway through the season MVP if you've got a pick?

Speaker 2 See, I don't even think it's close. I mean,

Speaker 2 you know, Jokic is just what he does. It's unbelievable.
I mean, so what's unbelievable is the guy wins multiple MVPs,

Speaker 2 and then the year he loses to MB,

Speaker 2 he gets the finals MVP.

Speaker 2 Should have been the regular season MVP that year, in my opinion. And then last year was, he doesn't get the MVP.
Shea gets it.

Speaker 2 Last year was the best year of Jokic's career, better than the MVP years. And now he's having a year better than that.
The guy keeps getting better.

Speaker 2 And the thing with Jokic to me that is phenomenal is

Speaker 2 he puts up these outrageous numbers. And I don't think he has the slightest interest in statistics at all.
I don't think he has any interest in that. in the least.

Speaker 2 I think he's a guy that cares about one thing and one thing only, only,

Speaker 2 and that is winning. And

Speaker 2 he's just going out and playing and trying to make the right play every time down the floor, and they win.

Speaker 2 And then he puts up these, I mean, outrageous, what nobody talks about is what this will be his second or third straight year when he's in the top 15 or 20 in the league and steals.

Speaker 2 So, you know, like. Yeah, the points there.
I mean, this guy, he's in another world. And this is what I talk about.
We can talk MVP MVP all we want and we can debate.

Speaker 2 And Shay had a great year last year. Giannis is always great.
All of this. I honestly think if you said, okay, you've got to win a championship this year,

Speaker 2 this year, to keep your job as a GM, okay, and we're going to draft all the players in the league. I think all 30 guys take Jokic.
So we can talk about who the MVP is. I don't think even one

Speaker 2 GM takes anyone other than Jokic if it's all about winning right now and the jobs on the line. So to me, and I honestly believe that, and I don't think it's close on who the MVP is.

Speaker 2 Those other guys are fabulous.

Speaker 2 You know, I think the only, you know, when you can start to get in the interesting debate is who's the American born MVP in the league, then maybe we can have a little bit better of a battle because the top five are

Speaker 2 all born uh uh abroad so that's where it can get even so but

Speaker 1 he's phenomenal i it's it's jokic driving 30 13 and 11 and just shooting it feels like a hundred percent it feels like he hasn't missed the entire season from anywhere you see him tell me you're not surprised every time he misses a shot well and particularly from

Speaker 1 like the 14 to eight foot range, which is supposed to be tricky, is he every shot, if it hits the rim, it goes in.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter, and that's why I was surprised earlier when you said Luca is the best offensive player you've ever seen.

Speaker 2 I think there's an argument.

Speaker 2 The one thing that makes him a little bit different, right, is

Speaker 2 Jokic, I mean, he's great, great, great, but

Speaker 2 and they will run some inverted pick and rolls for him handling, but he doesn't have the off-the-dribble beat your guy, make a dish that

Speaker 2 Donchich has.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's close, but I just think, and I think overall, because of the rebounding and everything else, Jokic is the best player in the world, but Doncic offensively, I just, he does what he wants.

Speaker 2 I mean, he does what he wants. And I don't know if there's a way to guard him.
I mean, we've gone back and forth for years on.

Speaker 2 Do you force him left, you know, but then

Speaker 2 he's not as good a passer going left, but then you bring the step back into the equation. So if you take away the step back and send him right, well, now he's even a better passer.
And

Speaker 2 that's what these kind of guys do is

Speaker 2 they render your game plans obsolete.

Speaker 1 It's going to sound like heresy.

Speaker 1 And it's not my original takes. Someone in a front office said this to me at Summer League, and I just hadn't hadn't heard it verbalized like this.

Speaker 1 I think Jokic might be the best offensive player in the history of the NBA. I think that's on the table now for me.

Speaker 2 Well, he might be the best player in the history of the NBA. Here's the thing: like my son says this all the time about every sport, he's more of a baseball guy, right?

Speaker 2 He said, Look, he goes, I understand the thought that

Speaker 2 you compare players to how well they did in the era they played in. But the evolution of athletes is,

Speaker 2 we can probably say that

Speaker 2 the best 20 basketball players in history have probably played in the last 20 years, Zach.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, like those other guys are great, but if you took them for what they were in their time and dropped them in today's game, a lot of those guys couldn't even get in the league.

Speaker 2 And I'm talking about some guys who are in the top 75 all the time. And I don't say that to disparage people.
We evolve over time.

Speaker 2 Athletes are getting better. How can you look at a sport like track and field or swimming and see that the times keep improving and think in our sport, players don't continue to get better and better?

Speaker 2 I mean, it's just the fact. That's why to me, right now,

Speaker 2 LeBron's the best player in the history of the game. Like people want to argue Jordan and the whole thing.

Speaker 2 It was Jordan's moments were 30 years ago, man.

Speaker 2 I mean players have gotten better these guys are the best players ever that in every sport it's just it's not trying to demean anybody it's just that's evolution that's what what happens i mean you really think we're dropping bob koozy in today's nba and he's dribbling simmons is going to be so outraged that you just said this about bob koozie dribbling with his right hand that's no knock on bob koozy what happened is Bob Koozi was a very creative guy and someone else learned from him and developed their game better and then from them.

Speaker 2 But you can't take those guys back then and drop them in today's game. Look,

Speaker 2 nobody's had a better career than LeBron in the league and Jokic

Speaker 2 is on another planet.

Speaker 2 If I had to take one guy in history right now, not just in today, I'm taking Jokic.

Speaker 1 So, I don't want to get into this whole thing because we did. Bill and I did this with Chris Paul yesterday.

Speaker 1 You do have to do the thing where it's like, if you took Kareem or Bill Russell, like indisputable top 10 guys, and gave them the resources, the training, the knowledge that we have today, that's a different conversation.

Speaker 1 I just want to make that clear.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And that's why I think the only fair way to do it when you're going to talk historically is you do have to compare guys and how dominant they were in their era.

Speaker 2 The game was played differently, the game was called differently, all the training methods were different, and we don't have 75 years of evolution.

Speaker 2 People have continued, athletes have continued to get bigger, stronger, faster. Go back and look at track and field, you know, what were the records were 75 years ago.

Speaker 2 Well, of course that's applying to every sport. People are just better athletes now, but that doesn't diminish what Jesse Owens or Mark Spitz did.

Speaker 2 You know, you have to judge them by their era, but that,

Speaker 2 man, like what's going on now, to say players used to be better, which some of the old time guys was, oh, it was better. It was this and it was that.
Stop it. Stop it.

Speaker 1 The answer is Jokic for MVP now. uh 25% of the way through the season, but all these guys are amazing.
American-born MVP, 25 games through the season. My snap.

Speaker 1 I was going to say my snap reaction might be Donovan Mitchell, but Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brunson, Anthony Edwards,

Speaker 1 Steph Curry,

Speaker 1 there's a lot of reaction.

Speaker 2 Steph Curry's always a good choice.

Speaker 2 But I think right now, for me, that would be Cade Cunningham. I mean, part of it is their teams 15 and 2.
They've gotten great play out of Jalen Duran, but the lineup around him doesn't wow you.

Speaker 2 I mean, certainly Donovan Mitchell has more around him than Cade Cunningham does, and Detroit's got

Speaker 2 a better record.

Speaker 2 So I'm not saying it'll end up that way, but for now, Cade would be my choice as the American-born MVP.

Speaker 1 Also, also deserving of mention, Tyrese Maxi.

Speaker 2 Real quick on

Speaker 1 Cade, the stuff you said about Luca and how

Speaker 1 every scheme

Speaker 1 he finds a way to beat. I watched watch the Pistons with that kind of eye on Cade because I said last week, I feel like our team's blitzing him too much to take the ball out of his hands.

Speaker 1 But if you drop on him, you know, which the Pacers did a few times last night, he just kind of bullies his way where he needs to go.

Speaker 1 He's beginning to solve that. Okay, last question because I know you got to go.

Speaker 1 Your updated NBA finals prediction.

Speaker 2 Well, OKC is an intrigue, you know, is the easy one to me, and I don't think it'll be easy. I think Denver, Houston, Lakers are all really good teams.
So I don't think it'll be easy.

Speaker 2 But come on, they're 17 and one and Jalen Williams hasn't played yet. You know, I mean, like.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you mentioned, you mentioned when they're not going to have a slump this year. For them, a slump is a loss.
That's a slump.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right. And look, I mean,

Speaker 2 the only injury they can't absorb is Shea. That would throw them for a little, everybody else.

Speaker 2 This isn't to diminish anybody. They got so damn many good players that anybody else, they just sort of fill in around them.
They can play every way you want to play. You want to go too bigs?

Speaker 2 All right, we go two bigs. You want to go small? Oh, yeah, we can do that.
You know, you want to try to outrun us? There's not a style of play that they can't play successfully.

Speaker 2 I think they're an easy choice for the finals. In the East, I think it's really, really hard.

Speaker 2 But I'm going to go Cleveland.

Speaker 2 I think that when they get everything together,

Speaker 2 I think that they're the team that is the best at both ends of the floor.

Speaker 2 New York's great offensively. I just don't know if they're going to be a real good defensive team at any point,

Speaker 2 you know, to be good enough. So I'll go with them.

Speaker 2 And then my runner-ups would be the same. You guys, I mean, Miami, Detroit, and New York would be my next three there.

Speaker 1 My preseason prediction was Oklahoma City over New York. I have not quite seen enough across the board of the East to change yet.
I'm going to stick with Oklahoma City over New York.

Speaker 1 The defense makes me nervous. The cat up and down makes me nervous.
The reliance on Mitchell Robinson makes me nervous, but I haven't seen enough yet. And I do think this team,

Speaker 1 the puzzle pieces can match up in a way that's interesting, but I'll tell you, I'm inching closer to just going Detroit. Like, they're just really good.

Speaker 1 And the number one player that I'm watching in this conversation, and maybe in the whole league for the next couple months, is

Speaker 1 I spent the entire summer hearing from people in Cleveland, out of Cleveland, everywhere, about how this is year Evan Mobley is blowing up. Like 25 games, eight assists.

Speaker 1 Like, we're going to run the offense through him and this and that. And I know they haven't had everybody.
They tried to force feed him early, and it was like a little clunky. I love Evan Moble.

Speaker 1 I've said many times I've never sold my Evan Mobley stock. I think he's a great player as is.
I had him second team team all NBA last year.

Speaker 1 I'm just still waiting for like the he's a legit 1A to Donovan Mitchell kind of leap. And I haven't seen it yet.

Speaker 1 And what I've seen is not super encouraging for me that he's going to really make that level up as a player offensively this year, which is fine. They can still make the finals that way.

Speaker 1 I don't think they can win the finals that way.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't think they, I don't think anybody's beaten Oklahoma City. So,

Speaker 2 and I, but I'm with you on Evan Mobley. I think he's a really good player and he'll continue to improve a little, but

Speaker 2 he's not a 25 and 12 guy.

Speaker 1 He's not a 23 and 6.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's an 18 and 8,

Speaker 2 something like that,

Speaker 2 who's also great at the defensive end of the floor. But offensively, he's improved a great deal since he's come in the league.
They've done a great job with him.

Speaker 2 I just don't, I don't see him being, you know, at least not with that group with those two guards. I mean, that's going to to be their offense, it's going to be Garland and Mitchell.

Speaker 2 He's going to be the third, the third option offensively. They've got great shooting around him, but yeah,

Speaker 2 he's not going to blow up into that guy, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 Well, we just got to see them healthy, too. Garland's barely played.
Struce hasn't played. Hunters with some games.
So we'll see.

Speaker 1 Okay, Stan Bangundi, you got, what do you said, Bucks Knicks on Black Friday? Is it you and Ian? Who's it going to be?

Speaker 2 It's Ian and I and Cassidy Hubberth.

Speaker 2 She's the best. And listen, I'm a huge Emirates NBA Cup guy.
I love it. I think it's been great for the league, and that's going to be

Speaker 2 a big game and a big day around the league because that's when all that stuff is going to be settled.

Speaker 2 You know, all the things that, so when I first heard about the NBA Cup, Zach, I was like, oh, come on. It's a gimmick.
I love it.

Speaker 2 When they first went to the play-in, I said, okay, that was fine for the bubble, but then you're going to do it in a regular season. That's ridiculous.
It's been great for the league.

Speaker 2 I mean, the bottom line is Adam Silver and the league office study things for a long time. They think, they think, they think, and they've done a tremendous job.
This thing has created interest.

Speaker 2 I don't care what people say. I watch all these games.
There is a different level of intensity in the cup games than there is in the other games. The players do care about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, my reaction at the time was

Speaker 1 I don't particularly care, but I see it as purely additive. Like they're just regular season games that you're turning into something else.

Speaker 1 There's no, my reaction at the moment of its announcement and its conception was there's no downside.

Speaker 1 The upside has actually been a little higher than I anticipated because the players do play harder. The coaches leave guys in longer because of the point differential thing.

Speaker 1 And every year there's a young team. It was Indiana two years ago, Houston last year, that sort of finds a little bit of itself under a bigger spotlight and builds going forward.
So we'll see.

Speaker 1 Like you said, by the end of Friday, the quarterfinals are going to be set. We're going to know, I think, who's playing who going forward.

Speaker 1 And so it's a big day and we'll be off to the quarters and semis in Vegas. Stand Van Gundy.
We'll listen to you on the broadcast. You're the best.
Appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 Thanks, Zach. Enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 All right. That's it for the Zach Lowe Show.
Enjoy the holiday weekend.

Speaker 1 Enjoy Thanksgiving with your families, Thanksgiving, a day off in the NBA, and then a loaded Friday Emirates NBA Cup, games on Amazon, games everywhere.

Speaker 1 We'll know by the end of the day what the cup quarterfinals are going to look like. Thank you all to listening and or watching the Zach Lowe Show.
Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan, and Mike on production.

Speaker 1 We will see you soon.

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