Shai Saves the Thunder, and the NBA Finals Are Now 2-2: All the Drama in the NBA With Bill Simmons.

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Ball over everything.

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Coming up on the Zach Low Show, I got Bill Simmons.

He's right there in the same room as me.

We were just at Pacers Thunder, game four.

It's down to three games for the NBA title.

An absolute war of attrition, defensive battle.

I'm drained.

I'm emotionally drained and physically drained.

I didn't play in the game.

Are you physically and emotionally drained?

We're going to talk about everything that happened in the game, if I can remember any of it.

I felt like I played.

And also, I felt the energy of the crowd, and I became a Pacers fan for like two hours.

And it got sucked.

It sucked me in.

What a game.

Can't wait to talk about it.

I got harassed on the street on the way back.

Zach Lowe, talk about the missed kickballs.

Talk about the missed kickballs.

Scott Foster.

Okay.

All right.

I'm going to go do the podcast.

We saw Andre Guadala in the elevator.

He was excited to talk about the game.

We got Kevin Durant rumors.

We got the Knicks are interviewing human coaches that

they heard they had a head and two arms and two legs.

We got it.

Yeah, I think so.

We got a lot to talk about on the Zach Lowe Show coming up now with Bill Simmons.

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Welcome to the Zach Low Show.

As promised, I'm in an undisclosed hotel location with Bill Simmons.

We just watched the Oklahoma City Thunder

in a game that didn't feel like it was one they were going to win, in a game that felt the Pacers were pacering around.

Tyrese Halliburton was playing well, Pascal Siakam was playing well.

Obi Toppin, another big game for him.

They were up by 10 at one point.

Oklahoma City, no rhythm.

They made three three-pointers the entire game.

They took 17 threes in the year of our Basketball Gods 2025, exacerbating problems that were coming in to this game.

They couldn't get threes.

They weren't passing.

They had 10 assists.

They made three threes.

Three threes.

They made three.

Three threes, 10 assists, and they win by seven on the road.

And they win by seven on the road.

And now it's 2-2.

They have reclaimed home court advantage, going back to Oklahoma City, and we are set up here for a potentially epic last two or three games of the finals.

And

I don't even know who I feel like has the edge after these four games.

They've all been very different games, but this game was sitting there for Indiana to win.

They were up, I think, seven going into the fourth quarter.

J-Dubb made a jumper right at the end of the third quarter.

It felt big when it went and after a stop, too, but it was sitting there for them to win.

It felt, didn't you feel like they were going to win?

I thought when it was 86, 76, up 10,

OKC looked like they were a mess.

And the ball wasn't moving.

It was all one-on-one stuff.

They couldn't hit a three.

And it felt like Indy could knock them out.

And they missed a couple shots, Toppin got fouled, missed both free throws.

And I just remember mentally noting it.

I'm like,

my notes right here.

They could be putting this game away right now and they're not putting it away.

And they let OKC hang around.

But I'll tell you, I thought OKC's defense in the second half

was among the best I've ever seen in my life.

Indiana couldn't get within 30 feet of the hoop on multiple possessions in a row.

Halliburton, Dort, I felt so good about my Dort Defensive Player of the Year.

It felt like Dort at halftime was like, all right, I'm doing to you what Nemhart is doing to our guy.

I'm doing to Halliburton, would Nemhart soon to SGA all the way up the floor.

You're barely going to get barely, and yet still, up 10, thunder in disarray.

They had two shot clock violations and an eight second call in the the third quarter.

What happened to the Pacers' offense at the end of the game?

Was it just an amazing defense?

I mean, it is amazing defense.

Was there anything else you noticed that the Thunder can take with them trying to defend this so far in the playoffs, like almost undefendable Pacers' offense?

I thought they solved a lot of stuff.

Siakam only had one field goal in the second half.

I think it was one for six.

He only took one field goal in the whole fourth quarter.

Boom.

They couldn't figure out how to get him the ball.

And if they tried to get him the ball around the key, it felt like OKC had seven arms just flying and tapping that.

Halbert couldn't start the offense and was working so hard just to get away from Dort.

And then it just was over and over again.

It felt like there was like six seconds left on the shot clock and they hadn't even really started a play.

And it was, you know, a Nemhard pull-up.

Or it was Halberton just trying to create something right at the end of the shot clock.

Or it was like a quick pass for a quick three.

Okay's defense, OKC's defense won the game.

But Shea made the two biggest shots of the game in a row.

He scored five in a row right when they needed him, and it felt like it flipped the game.

He had the three

that went took it from four points to one and then for the go-ahead jumper.

And, you know, he was, he, he had no assist, and he was still incredible.

Yeah, uh, 35 points on 12 of 24.

Did get 10 free throws, obviously a little inflated.

The free throws at the end, a lot of free throws.

Both of

they, they started running.

We talked about

after game three, you called dueling banjos on when I was saying you would like a little more synergy between SGA and J-Dub.

Even when they're rolling, it's like they're playing their separate offenses within the offense.

They put him in the two-man game a lot tonight with Shay screening for J-Dub, especially in the second half, especially in the second half.

And he couldn't stop it.

And it wasn't like anything fancy.

It's not like they blitzed and they got him in rotation.

It was they switched.

And just

it's so funny how these matchups are.

Like Jalen Brunson wants anybody but Neesmith on him, and SGA wants anybody but Nemhard on him, including Neesmith.

And he got that switch.

He got a, I think he drew a foul at the nail on one of them or made a, made a long two, drew a foul on like a spin move.

And then that three,

he got the switch.

They loaded up to him.

He kicked it to Jay Will or J-Dub.

J-Dub drove the gap and J-Dubbs was just relentless off the dribble the entire game.

Just kept him afloat in the first half and the first quarter.

It felt like he was going left every time, too, and they just just never could figure it out.

And he kicked it to Shea.

Shea hits the monster three.

And you nailed it with Siakam.

I thought

when Indiana's offense was kind of unraveling at the end of the game and it was, and one thing Oklahoma City did that I bet we'll see more of is they switched Chet onto Halliburton and Nemhart and just said, look, we know you're going to dance a little bit and sometimes you'll punish him.

Sometimes you'll beat him for a layup like Halliburton beat him for a layup.

Sometimes you'll have to step back three.

And we may not do this on purpose on every possession.

It may be sort of like, oh, God, the screen really hit us.

We're going to switch just to just to get back in front, but we're not going to get in rotation as much.

And Nemhart settled for a long two that he missed over him.

And it felt like Nemhart just never misses those shots.

Yeah.

Halliburton settled, I think, for a jumper that he missed over him.

And I just kept writing down, where is Siakam?

Where is Siakam?

Like they forgot about Siakam toward the end of the game.

And part of it is, you're right.

Like the entry passes were all treacherous against Oklahoma City, but I just wanted, I wanted Siakam to just force his way, go set a screen, like get involved in the action.

And I felt like they forgot about him, and Oklahoma City just walked him down with that defense.

I mean, there's so much to cover with this game.

I remember thinking in the third quarter, when it felt like Indy was going to win, especially in their up 10, I was sitting near the OKC bench.

I'm watching the body language, and they just looked young and tired.

And you could feel it at the end of the half when they walked on the end of the first half.

They were a little hangdoggy, noted that.

And then in the third quarter, same thing, just young and tired and i was just marveling because i thought okayc was playing incredible defense it wasn't like they were letting up indy was just scoring and getting these you know topping into those two threes in a row they're getting fast break points and at some point you're like maybe indy's just just a great offensive team now maybe they have just emerged and then over the last 14 minutes okc just plucked all their wings off It wasn't just that they scored 18 points.

The shots were terrible.

I never felt good.

They were either like somebody flying to the basket trying to make a really hard layup, somebody making a 20-footer with a hand in their face, or a rush three.

And those were the three plays.

And I think Halliburton's a great offensive player.

He can't solve Dort.

He can't go by him.

Dort,

I just thought Dort was, it's weird to say this because SGA was incredible, but I thought Dort was the MVP of the game.

I thought the way he took out Hallburton was like watching a defense take out the quarterback of another team.

Halbert had had an okay game.

It was like 18 and 7, but they really needed him.

And that game, it hit the point that we've watched him do this for two months now.

These close games, he makes big plays and big shots, and he couldn't do it in this game.

They didn't really have anybody to make the shots.

I am so brainbroken by Indiana's comebacks that when Halliburton deflects the inbounds pass when they're down five after the before it the before the inbounds pass foul that they got the extra free throw.

Remember, he deflects it and they come out and they get a run out.

Matthew

misses the free throws.

But when that happened,

I was like, these motherfuckers are going to do this again.

Like, again, I'm so brainwashed by them that in game two, when they were up like 18 and Carlisle put Johnny Furfe to the scores table, I was like, maybe he's got something with Furfe in this series.

Maybe this is like a secret weapon he's been waiting to play and they're going to come back, but there was no comeback this time.

You look at the box score, it's like J-Dubb, 27, Shea, 35, Caruso, just an absolutely massive 20 points.

Massive.

And big, like when plays were breaking down, he had one play where it was like the end of the shot clock.

Indy played perfect defense in the fourth quarter, and he just made like a crazy fallaway baseline.

Like he's not that kind of player.

But he was able to make manufactured shots points that they really needed just to kind of keep in touch because they're getting very little in transition.

Indiana has continued to be awesome in transition.

They're taking away all the easy buckets they get.

And it's just hard for them in the half court against the Pacers' defense that we just have to

laud them as like, this is now a legit, good to very good defensive team.

They've been on point with their rotations, particularly the last two games with their schemes and their rotations, which we can talk about.

Well, and then we should mention Chet played 37 tonight when he had the 14 and 15.

I thought he had a couple of big defensive plays.

I don't know how many blocks.

He had one on Nemhard.

He had two ones.

Nemhard late in the game when Nemhard drove and another kind of broken, slow possession for Indiana.

And he challenged him at the rim, and he had to toss it way up off the bed.

The other thing is four offensive rebounds for Chet, a couple putbacks.

Again, when things look like they were on the verge of Indiana 3-1.

He got hurt in the first quarter.

We were watching because it looked like he re-injured the ankle and that he wasn't coming back.

He limped off and we're like, oh my God, that's it for Chet.

Listen, their backs were to the wall.

We probably should have said this sooner.

I do think if they lost that game, I think that the, I don't think they can win three in a row after that.

I mean, how about this?

This is something we talked about last night and before the game.

I mean, there's a chance this was the NBA championship.

I actually don't feel that way.

I feel that way less after watching the game.

But we've had game fours like that before, that game four was the game, right?

It's like 2000 LA, Indiana that decided the championship that game.

If you think that you think OKC has now such an upper hand with home court advantage that they win game five and then all they got to do is split.

I don't come out of this game feeling like

it doesn't even feel like Oklahoma City still knows like what lineups to play and when.

Like did the double big thing even work?

Hartenstein was minus seven.

Wallace is kind of just like down, down, down.

19 minutes made one shot.

Joe didn't play the second half.

Wiggins eight minutes after that huge.

No, they have six and a half guys, Zach.

They're down to six and a half.

And are they going to now lean on the lineup we thought they might start tonight, which was Caruso for Wallace, staying small?

Yeah, that might be their best lineup.

It's actually been, it was minus seven in the playoffs before this game.

So I feel like they're still a little unsteady.

Chet looks a little rickety on offense outside of a couple of putbacks and stuff.

But, but, so I'm not ready to go there.

But there, there was a chance that this was like the NBA title was literally in the balance.

That's how I felt leaving.

I felt like Indiana blew it.

And there's two versions of blowing a game where you have like some of the comebacks Indiana had where, like the Knicks in game one, where you're like

not only do you just blow this game, I'm not sure we can emotionally come back from that.

This one was like Indiana, it was kind of amazing.

They were up 10

with, you know, late in the third quarter with how well OKC was playing defensively and how physical the game was.

And Foster, we didn't mention him yet.

Oh, boy, here we go.

It was just an abomination.

It was a typical Scott Foster all over the map, just involved, like weird stoppages, missed calls, like calling touch fouls, then not calling somebody, getting clubbed in the head.

They had no control of this entire game.

There was over 70 free throws.

Both coaches were mad.

Both benchers were mad.

Everyone was mad.

There was no rhyme or reason.

All of a sudden, they just started calling fouls on OKC in the fourth quarter that they'd been doing the whole game.

They're like, yeah, we're going to start calling those now.

Nobody could keep track of anything.

So the game had no flow.

But

the biggest thing for me is if Indy can't run and Indy's not

playing with pace in the half-court offense, I just think it's really hard for them to score.

Well, that's both these teams, and neither one can get any momentum running against the other.

Toppen got a run out, Donkin a transition three at one point.

But you look, it's like, how do you win a game?

I don't even know what number is more alarming.

Only making three threes or only attempting 17.

Like, Oklahoma City could not get any threes in this series.

Nobody wanted to shoot them either.

Their three-point rate would be last by a mile now in the regular season.

This will be three of their

four or five lowest three-point rate games will now have been in this series for the whole hundred whatever games they've played.

Wow.

They can't get threes.

The Pacers are just like, they're just filling gaps and flying out and they've got them second guessing.

So how do you win a game when you make three threes?

You take 17

and

you have 10 assists.

10 assists.

They had four assists in the second half, too.

They made six at halftime, four in the second half.

And they didn't win the turnover battle.

The turnover battle is more or less even um the answer is 34 free throws shoot better from two and have an absolutely incredible defense that strangled the pacers late in the game but it's it just and and the caruso wildcard feels impro and the caruso wild card game caruso seven for nine it felt like all of them were big shots i feel like they you know

I thought Thor was the best defensive player I saw this year, and I thought he was massive in this game.

Caruso was the most important trade of the year, and he was massive in this game.

And they, they at least know now because a game like this, and I know it's one thing to watch on TV, it's another thing to be in the building for it because there's just a different level of pressure and intensity.

The fans were so loud, and just for two hours, they're mad at the refs, they're going nuts for the team.

That was the kind of like 10 out of 10 pressure atmosphere I think that team needed.

And really, what they found out was we have Caruso and Dort, we have our two best guys, and we have Chet.

And

this is probably, this is, we're going to ride or die with these five guys.

And that's how it felt down the stretch.

But what's crazy is they couldn't make any threes and it didn't matter.

And that's just like in the NBA in 2025 to make three threes,

you should never be able to win a must-win game on the road.

It should be impossible.

They also hit their free throws, which we should have mentioned.

They're 34 for 38.

They're a great free throw shooting team.

That's it.

That's 90%.

I think we should talk about Shea.

Yeah.

And Shay in the second half because

it didn't feel like it was going to be a great Shea game for some of it.

He had two points in the first quarter, basically.

He, and he wasn't bringing the ball up at all, which is a red flag.

Like

he's, he's, and then he gets, they change his substitution pattern, so he comes out much earlier in the first and third quarters to like shorten his stints.

Yep.

And on a lot of these possessions, part of the reason why like it's J-Dub going one-on-one or whatever is if Shea starts off the ball, Nemhart is just denying him, like top-locking him in the corner, just not letting him get the ball.

And if he does that once, Shay on a lot of these plays will just kind of check himself out of the play.

Just like, all right, I guess someone else is going to do something.

And it just felt like, boy, maybe they really have worn him down.

Maybe this pacer's machine where it's like pitch and catch and run and screen and press you all over the place, maybe on only one day off between games, playing them four times, whatever.

Maybe they've done to him what they've done to everybody they face so far.

And it wasn't pretty.

It wasn't, none of it was easy.

Like you go look back at his baskets, his fouls, almost none of them were easy.

There weren't like very few jailbreaks, like the Pacers were given up in the first couple of games where he splits the pick and roll and it's like a jailbreak to the rim.

And he summoned what MVPs are supposed to summon.

He summoned like enough energy, enough resourcefulness, enough tough jumpers to get them over the hump in this game.

I thought, I mean, it was, again, it wasn't like

not a lot of highlights.

It doesn't necessarily a performance that like

makes you feel super confident about the next game, but it was everything they needed to survive that game he gave them.

I don't know what grade you would give it.

I don't know what struck you about it.

It's funny that it was your takeaway because I felt completely differently.

I felt like they got over some sort of invisible hump.

Well, I just think the, I want to, I'm just talking Shay specifically.

I didn't necessarily feel like that kind of fourth quarter was going to come.

Even, I guess early in the second quarter, he made a bunch of tough buckets to keep them afloat.

It just, he just felt like he had two points, then it felt like he made four tough shots in a row in the second and started to take control of the game.

He summoned whatever he needed to summon, he did it.

So

it's 101.97, 334 left.

Okay, Neesmith hits second free throw coming out of the timeout.

Yeah, Shea gets fouled, hits two free throws.

Halbert makes the driving layup.

So now it's 103.99, 320 left.

And OKC's offense kind of broke down a little bit, And, but that led to that Shea three.

It's the only one he made in the game.

They get a stop because Caruso blocks them hard.

And then Shea makes that step back.

And all of a sudden, they were leading.

And I think if you were watching, you know, those NBA Finals mini movies that the NBA makes

and everything's in slow motion and they cut to the bench, like this was the NBA Finals mini movie moment where Shea's three, which was, you know, a massive, massive shot because it went from four to all of a sudden they had the lead.

And then that other one.

And it was like, everyone in my section was like, what just happened?

We were up four.

And I didn't feel like Indiana was going to win after that.

And that was one of the only times I felt that way, the whole playoffs for them.

Just felt like a fucking stomach punch.

And

look, OKC has been

in this exact position before against Denver, down 2-1.

Yeah.

On the road,

season maybe on the line.

Who was that?

Lou Dort hit a couple shots?

That was Denver.

Yeah.

No, I think that was game five was like the Dort game.

Game four against Denver, I think, was the one.

It was a very low-scoring game where like Wallace and Wiggins made a bunch of threes against the zone in the third quarter when it felt like they were really teetering in that game.

And they just another test that they survive, and now they go home.

And

I mean, well, if you're Indiana, you're kicking yourself, though.

You are.

You are.

Three threes, and

you give up three threes and you lose the game.

And you stopped running.

And i i'm not going to say they played scared i thought they played tentative down the stretch it was one of the few times we've seen them all year where they were kind of they just weren't attacking like they normally do i actually thought they made a mistake uh and it's funny because he was terrible in the last minute of the game mathurn he missed the three out of four free throws he had two dumb fouls but i actually thought they needed him down the stretch because nobody could create anything and he was the one guy on their team who can actually create a basket and it's just that's a lot i like nemhard but that's a lot to ask for him to try to create shots i also thought we should have mentioned this too sga's defense was really good in this game like he blocked a haliburton three he tipped a couple passes uh i just thought he was really active and on top of what dorton crusso was doing that's it's in the running for best defense i've ever seen in person When you're wondering how somebody can get the ball over midcourt, that's like shit you worry about in eighth grade, not in like an NBA game.

Shay is the best guard in the league league at the, I switched onto a big man.

He's posting me up, and I'm going to jump over you and tap away the engine pass without fouling you.

He's

got long-ass arms.

Yeah, he's the best guard in the league at that.

We should also probably talk about Miles Turner, three of 10, 0 of 6 on 3.

It just

feels huge that he has not been able to get going for a lot of the series.

And Carlisle is going to toppin Siakam together more and more which has been a successful lineup for them yeah but turner has got to make shots especially if they're going to play drop coverage or or come up to the level of the screen he's going to be able to pop and get into a short roll game he's just got to make some shots for them to win so i think he was two for ten last game is three for ten this game it's been a rough couple of games he was getting the shots they wanted him to get he was missing them the guy behind sitting behind me who who uh was very upset at Scott Foster at various points and just started screaming, fuck you, at him during the fourth quarter, which I thought was fun.

But Miles missed one of those wide open threes at the top of the key, which he's made all year.

And the guy behind me was just like, God, Miles, that's your shot.

And that was how I felt watching it.

I'm not even a Pacers fan.

I was like, Miles, that's your shot.

And they weren't misses.

They were like missing right, missing left.

There was a really bad Halberna air ball near the end.

There was a couple like rebounded air balls where Indy got fouled.

Mike Smith just caught it under the rim.

If you did a collage of the fourth quarter misses, I think they would be pretty ugly.

So you're feeling confident about OKC.

I think they got over the hump.

But I really feel like Indy, I think there was a moment in that third quarter.

And then if they, when it was 86, 76, and I thought they had a chance to end it because you can't come back from 15 if you're not going to make threes, right?

You can do it if you're.

whoever, but not a team that's not making any threes.

Not taking them.

That's the crazy thing.

They can't even get get them.

So they missed that moment there.

And then that 103.99, that SGA three was just a backbreaker when it cut it to one.

I felt you could feel the air go out of the

out of the arena for a second.

Now, maybe I'm wrong about this because Oklahoma City can certainly go home and just have one of those games where they force 22 turnovers.

And it doesn't even matter what they do on offense because they get 30 points in a transition to just run you out of the building.

And if they get

one of those, that's three wins and they just need to play one more game and win.

I still think they're going to have to find some kind of rhythm on offense to win two more times against the Pacers.

I don't think the Pacers are now like

mentally defeated.

And oh my God, what do you think?

So you don't think they found something with the two-man game there?

I think they found, like, I mean, it's, it shouldn't be a revelation.

Like, they've used that two-man game before.

I still think they have to make some, but they were doing it every time.

Every time it felt like they were like, you can't stop this.

Now we're just going to do this until you start.

And it involves their two best perimeter defenders, Nemhart and Neesmith.

And so it shouldn't be as much of a threat as it was at the end of that game.

But I think we'll see that.

But I think they are going to have to establish a little bit more of a rhythm in their half-court offense and

improve their spacing a little bit and just like play.

They've had a couple threes in this series where they've gotten them by.

Setting flare screens off the ball, like leveraging Indiana's help against them.

They got one tonight.

Chet set a flare for somebody.

I think it was Caruso.

I just think they need to play with a little bit more purpose offensively to

win twice more against Indiana because I don't think Indiana is like going away now that they've lost home court advantage.

I think these are going to be tough.

But there's some things that are tough going against them now.

You have Miles Turner now, an official slump.

You have an Indiana team that if they're trapped in the half-court offense with the way OKC was dialing them, they're going to dial it up at home too.

Just really hard for them to score.

And it's not like, with the exception of the end of the last four minutes, let's say, where I thought they stalled out a little bit and lost a little bit of their snap, they're like running their stuff.

Like, there was a sequence where Toppin and Halliburton flip the ball back and forth to each other like three times or four times in two seconds.

And you could see Oklahoma City being like, God damn, can you just, can someone just dribble

so we can stay still for a second?

You know, they're running Halliburton like in off-ball split actions like the Warriors run.

They're like doing

their stuff, and Oklahoma City is just up for it for the most part.

I do think they found something with Chet.

Hey, Chet, can you just switch a little bit more just to keep us out of rotation a bit?

They tried playing zone.

That didn't really work, but I mean, their defense is just

more talented, and their defense is their defense is the best thing in the playoffs.

I wrote down, it was after those two huge top and threes,

and I agree with you on the defense.

It was 80-72 Indy, 4-11 left in the third quarter.

And I wrote down threes, Indy, 11 for 27, OKC, 1 for 12.

And I was sitting with Chen,

and I'm like, Indy's plus 10 in threes, and they're up eight.

That feels like not a good sign,

right?

If you're 11-01 in threes, I'm just going to assume you're up by 15, 20 points.

And it's just that OKC was hanging around with such a credit to their

defense.

I thought OKC went to another level defensively.

It was crazy watching OKC solve it and score.

I mean, Indiana solve it and score, even though OKC was doing everything right and they were so physical.

And then, you know, it would end up with some crazy top and three or a Siakam whirling move in or Nemhart.

Like, and it was like, Jesus, they're throwing everything at this team.

They're still scoring.

And then they ran out of Calliburton had a couple of just drives to the rim where they're, again, they're trying to make him a driver and a playmaker,

like a slower driving chris paul style playmaker and he had to drive to the rim he had one where he like drove fake shot fake pass fake shot and then fake pass got somebody an open three in the corner um well can i can i just tell you i've noticed two things in this series going to the games which i knew anyway but really jumped out to me how burnt only goes right jalen williams only goes left

And OKC just, they know Halliburton's going right, and they're just like basically preventing it.

Indiana was not preventing Jalen Williams from going left over and over again.

He loves going left, and he just kept getting it.

And even if you kind of blocked it off, then he would do his little step back 12-footer.

I thought he was tough shots.

I thought he was brilliant.

He was absolutely relentless.

And it shut down Siakam, too.

And they were bringing, if Siakam came out, he would take, he would, Dagnall take Jalen Williams out, then he'd put him back in if Siakam came in.

I just thought he

completely outplayed Siakam in the second half.

He was awesome.

And just the relentlessness he played with early in the game, it just felt like they needed to stay in touch.

Like the game didn't feel like it was going to go their way.

It wasn't going their way.

And he just drove and drove.

He got 11 free throws, 11 of 11 at the line.

He had one play.

He had tough, tough, tough plays, too.

Yeah, he had one play where it was a baseline out of bounds.

He catches it in like the left corner.

Ben Shepard was on him.

Ben Shepard, you know, just a sort of nondescript 11 minutes today.

And Ben Shepard just kind of overran the catch by a half step.

And J-Dubbs saw it and seized on it and just drove middle with every bit of force he could summon and got fouled at the ramps.

Like stuff like that, that's just tough.

That's tough.

That's hard.

Oh, I know.

We should mention this sooner.

That game from a physicality intensity standpoint was as good as it gets.

I had a GM text me during the game, or whatever the title is for the number one decision maker on a team, text me during the game.

How many games do you think we could find from the last 30 years that were harder played than these last two games?

Like that's

just, I mean, I'm sure we could find some, but that's people are no, people around the league, you know, the rest of the league watches the finals.

They watch for trends.

They watch for like what wins at the biggest stages.

And at least this one guy texted me and said, this is like the just the level of effort and physicality is the likes of which he almost literally hasn't seen.

Yeah, there was that like real desperation.

And it wasn't just in the down the stretch.

It was like the entire game.

And I, like, I went to the, I went to the Denver Clippers game four, which I talked about in my pod.

I thought that was an awesome game.

And both teams really brought it.

And this was a level higher than that.

In that game, I was like, that felt like a game seven.

When you go to game sevens,

they're almost so desperate and so physical that usually they're not that good of a game.

Usually the best games in a series are game four games.

I love a game four.

I love a game four.

You have the desperation, but

they're not nervous and it's not ugly.

This one was all of those things.

Like

there were points where it was really well played.

There were other parts where it was ugly.

I thought the fourth quarter was actually pretty disappointing that Indiana just couldn't figure out how to score because I wanted to see how far they could push OKC and they just they can never kind of put OKC in like they're down seven with four minutes.

They could never they OKC was always lingering, lingering, lingering.

And I just

that's a tough one, man.

You have those, you think about those that like the celtics had that three years ago with the steph curry that game four in the finals when he just took off in the second half and one of the best games i've ever been to yeah and you just sometimes you know when you just know something has shifted

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so you and i on our on the off days and during the days we've been making a lot of calls on offseason stuff and draft and trades and Philly naturally,

I'm going somewhere with this, I promise.

Philly in the car with you.

Philly naturally comes up a lot because they're at number three and what are they going to do?

And this and that.

So you're talking to people about the Sixers.

And you watch these games and how intense and how physical they are.

The playoff, you just cannot overstate how long of a slog the playoffs are if you're going to win four playoff series and start playing basically every other day for the second and third round.

And then you get some more off time in the finals.

And then it's 18 days in the finals, potentially.

It's like

these two teams are relatively young,

incredibly young in Oklahoma City's case, deep and pretty healthy.

And the reason I bring up Philly is just like everyone's like, yeah, you know, maybe they can get Embiid to play 60, 65 games again in a season.

It's just impossible to like imagine him playing a full playoffs at this level.

This level of minutes.

It's just watching it up close over and over again, round after round, the toll it takes on just the playoffs.

Forget the first 82, just like the 20, whatever you need to win a title wins and losses together it's just an enormous toll on your body and there it's not a coincidence that we have two young healthy deep teams standing at the end and even they're like gonna get to the end of the series like we couldn't play another series after this or like we i don't know what it would even look like yeah game three dallas boston in the finals was like that i felt like um

i thought it got to that level where they were really there was a desperation on both sides that was the only time it's pretty rare to see an entire series of it because i feel like I thought game three kind of had the same vibes.

This was a little different because,

and you could feel it.

Like, I was watching the OKC during the timeouts.

They knew.

They know what's going on.

They can't go down 3-1.

Even with home court, it's a taller.

The young guys were super quiet.

Caruso was kind of the, he's the clapper, fist pump veteran guy that every team needs.

But an SGA is just this calm Michael Myers force who just doesn't really talk.

It was weird.

He got called for a fourth foul and he was actually kind of mad and so was dagnaught it was weird to see them even rattled by a call and that's when he got taken out of the game for 38 seconds yeah yeah like one possession one oklahoma city offensive possession right even to see them do that it was like oh it was like the russians cut it was one of those moments but for the most part they're just business like they do their business and

dort is just like ray lewis out there He really is.

He's like a linebacker.

Like in the first half, and I don't know if the TV, I think the TV caught it after the fact.

So Mathram was shooting free throw and Dorches elbowed Halbert in the face, like, like for real.

It was like a flagrant foul, it seemed like.

It wasn't a full flop, that's for sure.

Like he, he got, they got tangled up and he just did the discards.

Just nailed him, just get off me.

And there was, there was like two other times when it was clear.

I'm speaking for him.

I don't know if he really thinks this, but he's like, However, might be a little soft.

I'm going to test him a couple of times.

And he was, you know be like hockey he was canadian hockey enforcering uh the thing caruso same thing like these guys it's a really it's weird you don't think of them as like a tough team like the way we would think of like the bad boy pistons or something there's that team is tough yeah they're not out to like be violent but their physicality is is unrelenting on those drives like they're they want to like bang into you and knock you backwards well and jay jay will j dubb rather had a couple hard fouls a couple hard fouls tonight one on offense one on defense just going like hell at the rim or going like hell to challenge a shot at the end on mather and um yeah they're by the way we're we're at the point with flagrant fouls now where i don't know what they mean you might as well just pick like three media members and be like you guys are going to be the flagrant foul judges for tonight's game just two out of three it's a flagrant it's not a flagrant because

toppin and caruso just seemed like a hard foul Hartenstein got mad about it for some reason.

Then it was like, no, that was actually a flagrant.

We were like, what?

Let's play a foul.

And then Top and club somebody in the head or somebody clubbed top in the head.

Somebody clubbed Toppin in the head.

That's called that.

Dort elbowed Halbert in the face, not a flagrant.

I don't know.

I can't.

Just maybe me, you, and

Howard Beck can just be like the flag foul committee.

Would it give Scott Foster a chance to randomly just stop the game a couple more times?

Well, he's walk over the scores table for no reason.

At least he could give us a little Bill Kennedy mugging at the microphone.

You know,

he doesn't even vamp like that on the

chat.

He was just awful.

I knew he was going to be awful, and he was worse than I thought he was going to be.

Because I think the officiating's been pretty good for the most part in the playoffs.

Yeah.

Tonight was bad.

It really, Oklahoma City really kind of felt their way through this game.

Like felt,

I didn't like the way they started.

I was like almost alarmed by the fact that coming out of the gate, they had Halliburton blitz, or they had Hartenstein blitzing Halliburton in the pick and roll.

Like to me, Halliburton is a guy that you just don't blitz blitz because he's going to make the right easy pass every time.

And they got a couple, they got to stop turner missile jump shot.

I was shocked that they had, and it backfired a couple of times.

I don't know if that's like something they might try again.

I don't love it.

We just got to mention how they started the double bigs.

Yeah, no, we mentioned it before.

I don't even.

A little desperate.

Did it work?

Not really.

Hartenstein was minus seven.

Didn't feel like he had.

I honestly think that change, I mean, Mark Dagnall will never explain anything anything in like what they're actually thinking.

I'll bet you that change was aimed at their offense more than their defense because of his screening, his passing.

Like, hey, if you're going to top lock Shay, I can hit him on, I'm the guy who can hit him on backdoor cuts.

They're big-to-big passing.

They don't really use him like that, though.

I feel like he's declined.

as the playoffs have gone along and has basically turned into a backup center, which he was way more than that during the season.

He was, I thought, like this additive offensive player for them.

But I did all the other stuff.

Between games and re-watching game three,

my anticipation was whatever adjustments they make are going to be aimed at loosening up their offense a little bit.

I don't think that they really succeeded tonight.

I still think.

You didn't like the three for 17 from three?

Well, I just,

it's a little thing.

I thought Joe would play more.

Just because he's their best chance at like just some random guy gets on a heater and makes four threes in the second quarter.

I I thought he would play a little bit more.

I thought they would play, try playing five out again, maybe like no bigs.

Just try it, see how it works.

It seemed like he just wanted the defense more than the offense in the second half, at least.

I agree with you.

I thought it was going to be Wiggins because I was watching Wiggins warm up before the game, and it felt like he made 39 or 43s

and just was like, oh, they might need those.

And then he missed one.

We never saw him again.

I mean, would it like Ken Rich Williams played more minutes than Aaron Wiggins?

Yeah.

Well, this is what happens as these series go along.

It's, it's like soldiers on a battlefield.

They start getting picked off one at a time, and all of a sudden you have six and a half guys left.

If you're Indiana, like you have a legitimate Miles Turner issue now, because

I don't even think he thinks his shot's going in.

You've got to take them.

And you have Toppin, who has looked great and he's given them energy.

I thought it was a bad sign for the Pacers that they were putting their subs in.

with like five minutes left in the first quarter.

That whole first half, I texted you at one point.

It was 9.45.

It was like three minutes left.

The first quarter, it felt like it took forever.

And Carlisle started speed subbing, and then all of a sudden he brought his dudes in, but it was really early.

It was,

you know, there was still five minutes left.

And all of a sudden, McConnell and Toppin were in the game.

And I just felt like, I don't feel like their subs had the same impact because of that today.

McConnell had some moments in the first half.

I don't really remember anything he did in the second half.

And eight points, a lot of dribbling.

18 minutes.

Matherin just

not there tonight.

And listen, somebody asked me before the game, you think Matherin will do it again?

And I was in the bathroom and I was like, it was a treat in game three.

I'm feeling a trick tonight for Matherin because he's trick or treat.

I mean, that's how he is.

That's how he is.

I had a couple more notes for you.

You go.

Hold on.

So,

oh.

OKC,

I thought this was interesting the first half, just decided to give up.

I know they ended up with some offensive rebounds,

but they would take a shot and four guys would just go back.

It was the old Doc Rivers end of the 2000 Celtics move of they were just like, you can have the rebounds.

They didn't want to get beaten so badly on those fast breaks that they threw the offensive rebounds away for a while, which I thought was an interesting strategy.

They didn't stick with it, but that was a little grasping for Straussish to me.

And then I thought the pace was so fast for them in the first quarter especially and and i wrote down in my notes this is what would happen when the celtics would play indiana indiana just sucks you into their pace you're like i don't want to play this fast and then all of a sudden you're playing that fast and in the second half okayc figured out how to get the pace back the second half was the okayc pace especially the last 14 minutes a little slower a little more chaotic That's where they want it.

They don't want to be in a track meet with these guys.

What other notes do you have?

Any other notes you want to get to um

i wrote down at the end of the first quarter in in bold reprehensible foster game and it only got worse um

no i had the big picture

oh here's one

where do you have jalen williams big picture right now in general i don't i don't have any

i don't think i have like a hot

we i think he made all nba right?

I think he made third team all-NBA as like the last guy in.

I would not have had him on my third-team all-NBA ballot.

I would have had him as like maybe the last guy out.

And then you factor in like guys that were not eligible due to injuries.

He's probably something like the 20th best player in the NBA.

And I think I have him higher.

Yeah, I don't.

I mean, like, defensively, you, you, I had him all defense for sure.

Because you have your 10 guys, and then it moves into that, like Kade, AD, Jalen Williams, Mobley,

LeBron, Booker, that kind of category.

Yeah.

The stuff Jalen Williams was doing tonight, how elite he was as a two-way guy, how fucking hard he plays.

Oh, look, there's nothing.

I remember he's shaking off all the young guy cobwebs at this point.

Like he is like a fucking bull in a China shop.

I remember two years ago on NBA Today,

we were doing, we were commenting over a thunder highlight.

And I just screamed just two years ago, Jalen Williams is a star.

Like he's a star.

And he's, it was clear he was going to be a star.

Now he's might be, I think he might be a level higher than a star now.

Like, he's, he's a clear, you can win the title if he's your second best guy in the team.

Well, we know that because they're two wins away from winning the title, but it was like, is he 2A?

Chet's 2B.

Now, I don't know.

I just, those two games in person, I was just really impressed by, I feel like he's gone up a level.

Maybe I'm crazy.

A couple of big picture things.

Yeah.

I would like to dispel

something that is seeping into the media coverage of this finals.

Oh, God.

No.

Well, no, no, no, no, no.

Solitaire?

Someone informed me about that after the game.

I did not see it.

I'm laser focused, baby.

I'm focused.

I heard rumors.

No, there's no Twitter for me during the games.

That's how I operate as well.

Laser focused.

We're at the game.

What do I need to do?

I need Twitter.

I'm at the game.

I can watch it.

Anyone fucking talks to me during the game, you're not getting a response.

All right.

Really?

I talked to Chen the whole game.

I just kind of narrated it for him um

so there's this notion that like we have all we have all underestimated indiana

and because we did not realize

that i'm not including us because we did realize it that after a slow 10 and 15 start they became an elite team that's true i've seen a little bit of like well they're really and even i was talking to a couple people before the game on the sideline i will not name who they were saying yeah they're you know these teams are like neck and neck after January 1.

Like, that's the line of demarcation.

They're neck and neck.

And I just like, I just want to, I just want to say, it's not true.

Like, so here, so after the Pacers are 10 and 15,

they've,

I, you,

red line at that moment from that point on in the season, the Pacers go 40 and 17 with a net rating of plus 4.9.

That was sixth in the NBA.

Yeah.

The Thunder go 49 and 9 with a net rating of plus 13, which is first by a mile, which is to say, even if you just isolate when the Pacers started playing well, when Halliburton, who was more injured in the offseason, by the way, than people know, and I think maybe we will figure that out later.

Even if you isolate the season from that point forward, the Thunder are still way better on paper.

Like there's still a big gap on paper.

Now, I think what we've discovered in the playoffs is you can kind of throw the paper a little bit to the side because just the way the Pacers play is extremely difficult to play against over and over and over again.

And they were getting better and better at it.

Yeah,

the paper gap shrinks because of the style difference.

The styles make fights.

It's like what I said before about the stuff they were doing the first three quarters with the kind of defense OKC was playing was incredible to watch because OKC was playing A-plus defense and Indiana was still,

you know, getting good shots and running on them and hitting threes.

And the other thing I would like to say

that

the Pacers have successfully become a very good defensive team.

And

schematically,

they're long, they're fast, they're smart.

Halliburton has held his own.

And that's the bar for the guard, the skinny guard, the Steph Curry guard, whatever.

Just hold your own so that we don't have to bend everything to account for you.

He's been

pretty solid for the most part.

And if you talk to people with the Pacers, it was your Boston Celtics that had the light bulb go on for him.

That just those two games that he played before he got hurt in the conference finals, it was eye-opening for him to be like, oh, they're really going to pick on me every single time.

Like, it's just, this is how it's going to be in the playoffs.

Like, I've just got to get a little better.

And he's done it.

And their scheme in this series has been awesome.

They're flying around in pick and roll coverages.

When there's a jail break, someone will peel in from the perimeter.

Another guy will peel out.

They're making those reads correctly.

Can we play a game with Andrew Nemhard?

Yeah.

Because

you're a redraft guy.

Andrew Nemhard was the 31st pick in the 2022 draft.

Incredible.

And that's what's cool about this Pacers team, like, and why it's hard to parse.

Halliburton, all-NBA guy, right?

Got to have that.

Yeah.

Siakam,

borderline all-star.

It's in the top 30s.

Like he'll make the all-star team some years, some years not.

It's in the 20 to 30 range, usually.

Second round pick, Nemhard.

First round, quote bust nismith reclamation project not for us we never gave up our housemith island we're like i i we can't sell it's like the value is going to keep going up yeah sj was picking on him today i did i did look at redfin uh miles turner center who's been in trade rumors for almost 10 years you know it doesn't look like this it's not like the warriors starting five from 2015 no even when you look at the scoreboard and you're like it's almost like they're missing a guy but they're not all right let's play like would you draft this guy over Nem Hard?

And we'll see if we would redraft Nem Hard.

Okay.

Paolo, yes.

Yeah.

Chet, yes.

Yeah.

Jabari Smith Jr.

I mean, that's another one of my holdings.

Me too.

I love Jabari Smith Jr.

I'm saying it's a conversation.

Yeah, it's a conversation.

I think I'd rather, I really like Jabari Smith, and I just think he's on the wrong team.

I love his will.

I just want to see him on another team.

Imagine him in the Pacers in the Miles Turner spot.

I would enjoy that.

Keegan Murray.

Numhard 100 times out of 100.

Jaden Ivey?

It's not fair because Ivy got hurt, but I would take Nemhard.

Benedict Matherin?

Numhert.

Shaden Sharp?

18 a game last year.

I like Shaden Sharp.

I like winning titles, so I'm taking Nemhard.

Dyson Daniels?

Oh.

I'd probably take Daniels.

Would you?

I'd probably take Daniels.

Yeah.

He was unbelievable last year.

Jeremy Sohan?

No.

Here's the toughest one, number 10.

Johnny Davis?

How did he do in Israel last year?

Usman Jeng?

No.

You're not going to hit anybody else, probably.

No, Jay Dubb is number 12.

Oh, so there you go.

Jalen Duran.

Then you go, O Chai Ocha.

Like, Andrew N.

Hart.

Jalen Duran's an interesting conversation.

I thought he was good last year.

I'm a big fan.

I'm just saying, like, there's a pretty good chance Andrew Nemhart should have been a top 10 pick in the draft and they got him at 31 with a pick they acquired in a trade.

That's all.

I just was like, I want to redraft this and see where it goes.

They took him in the range where everybody thought he was going to go, though.

I heard a good Andrew Nemhart story, actually, today.

So the Bucs had the 24th.

The Bucs, who have some offseason dilemmas to sort out, maybe they're starting to switch out.

Maybe they

are not.

But part of the reason the Giannis future thing is a question is that they just like, who are the young players that are going to grow with Giannis that I can look around and say, Oh, it's me and A.J.

Green in three years, and who else?

Uh, the Bucs had the 24th pick in the draft, and they worked out Nemhart, I think, twice.

Love Nem Hart, all over Nemhart.

He even, from what I heard, he even had to cancel a Pacers' workout because he had to go back and work out for the Bucs.

The Bucs were picking seven spots ahead of the Pacers, and they passed on him and they took Marshawn Beauchamp.

And Nemhart, who is an absolute MFer as a competitor, like icy as hell, wants to kill you, has never, ever forgotten about it, and wants revenge on the Bucs all the time.

But it's like an underrated little piece of the Bucs Pacers rivalry.

I don't know.

Any other takeaways?

Like, as we head to game five?

I heard a horrifying Halbert story about the draft today.

Oh, God.

Share it.

Can you share it?

The Boston story?

Oh, boy.

All right.

Let me look.

Boston was picking 14

and that, and they loved.

I knew this story, and I think I blocked that out of my mind and then it was retold to me today they're picking 14 and they wanted to trade up for haliburton boston and dallas were two teams trying to trade up for him boss had a better chance because they were 14 and they were trying to trade with uh

a couple of the teams and at some point

danny was on the phone with somebody and misunderstood what they said

The guy said he's not going to be there at 14, but Danny said he's going to, Danny thought he said he's going to be there at 14.

So they didn't do the trade-up because he's like he's going to be there at 14.

that's what we heard and then he got taken and i thought we're going to have a sacramental brooks brooks situation again like dylan brooks and marshawn brooks

no it wasn't a brooks thing but they didn't trade up because he misheard the information and who did the boston celtics take with the 14th pick aaron niesmith aaron niesmith yeah Because the Phoenix picks seemed pretty available at number 10, and somehow they ended up just taking Jalen Smith anyway.

A lot of teams kicking themselves with Halbert.

Any other notes on this game as we move forward to game five?

Adjustments, counters, stuff you're looking for that we'll just say this.

I flew to Indiana.

It was a four-hour flight.

Two games in three days.

Was hoping they'd be really good.

The games were spectacular.

Simacular.

So intense.

They were an A-plus.

I love the Indiana fans.

I thought they were just awesome.

My only critique would be don't go completely silent when you get nervous when your own guy's at the line.

Just do some small chatter.

When it goes from super loud to.

I'll never forget being in MSG for game one of Pacers Knicks when Ananobi and Townsmis free throws at the end of the day.

Same thing when it goes

noise to

silence.

They were going shh.

Don't do the shit.

Just pretend.

Just start talking about like, hey, have you seen your friends and neighbors?

Like, just have conversation.

Let the guy shoot.

But I thought.

They were just awesome.

And the atmosphere is great.

Everybody loves basketball.

Everybody seemed like they had their own tickets.

Usually when you, especially you go to the finals, it seems like a a lot, some people sell or you have like a lot of corporate people.

This was like just pacer fans absolutely everywhere.

My big note is that McAfee did this monologue with like 10 minutes left.

Did you see this in the scoreboard?

And was talking about, this was like a crucial part of the game.

And he was doing this thing about, we were six-point underdogs and this is Indiana.

And it was just, it was the wrong timing.

I would have gone second quarter for that.

It was like this massive part of the game.

And they were, they actually had to stop the game and wait for the monologue to finish before they started playing again i thought that was really weird fourth quarter of a game that

the biggest game of their

most consequential game of the season so far i was talking to somebody before the game is this the biggest nba pacers home game ever this game tonight this is before the game i mean this is the first time they've ever been in the lead in the finals

in the nba so the other one would have been lakers 2004 game four the kobe game

but they were down to one in the series this one they're up to one

and this is another piece of this now that we don't have two three two anymore it's like impossible to win three in a row in the two three yeah i think as great as oklahoma city is and with home court advantage pacers win this game and have all that momentum and all that good feelings and okc is is

asking questions of themselves and feeling down i don't think they can win three games in a row i don't think so either at home i think six would have been really hard but now it you know you and i both thought indiana was going to win tonight i did i felt, I told, I said before, yeah, just something in my gut.

Yeah.

The way they finished game three, it just felt like Oklahoma City was a little frazzled and a little tired.

And the way this game started, I was like, oh, okay, it feels like an Indiana win.

It felt like an Indiana win for the first three quarters of the game.

So what, so it almost became the OB topping game.

So what, this, I guess this game ended up with no name.

It's the SGA five points.

Yeah, I think it's the game.

I think it's the SGA fourth quarter scoring at the end.

It's maybe the Caruso, the Caruso, another Caruso game.

Another like

game.

Really nice win.

Good job by the Indiana fans, though.

I thought they did everything they possibly could.

And I've never heard matter fans in my life than they were at Scott Foster at various points in that game.

Real animosity.

Are you, would you make a pick now?

Like an update?

I mean, both of us, our picks are wrong.

We picked Oklahoma City in five before the series, I believe.

You know, in The Godfather,

Salazzo tries to kill Vito Corleone.

He shoots him and doesn't die.

And then he talks to somebody later.

He's and he has dinner with Michael Corleone.

Doesn't go well.

McCluskey and Louise.

We ends up getting shot to death.

Yeah.

And he's like, I missed my chance.

Now I am the hunted one.

It felt like an I missed my, it felt like a salazzo game for Indiana.

They missed their chance.

This was it.

This was all lined up for them.

They're up 10.

Obi topping at the line.

OK, OKC's rattled and young and playing twice in three days.

The crowd's crazy.

This was it.

They had it.

But we should know not to count them out either.

I'm not going to say they have no chance, but I just feel like OKC probably won the title tonight.

Like I said before, I think Oklahoma City still has to make some adjustments offensively to pull this series out.

I think, look, I picked Oklahoma City to win in five.

I still think they're going to win the series, but I think it's going to be a tough, I don't know, six, seven, whatever.

I don't care.

I think they're going to win the series, but I wouldn't count Indiana out.

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Should we do some off-season stuff before we go?

Yeah, let's do it.

Durant.

Yeah, it's Durant.

Everybody's going to happen right when you're at a party tomorrow night.

I know.

Everyone's talking about Durant.

Everyone.

The league is talking.

Every team is talking.

I would say the buzz order right now,

if I had to do a buzz rank, is Minnesota.

Not as sold on that one as you.

No, I'm not.

I'm just saying buzz, like the buzz.

Yeah, yeah.

Houston,

back up in the buzz rankings.

That's another weird one because you're giving away possible Giannis assets for December to February if that situation changes.

We'll talk about Giannis.

We don't need to.

He's not getting traded.

I think you're probably right.

He's not going to, he's staying this summer.

He might get traded in December, January, February.

He's not getting traded.

The thing about that is, I think we talked, I can't remember what we talked about or not, but the whole gap year thing, like, you know, gap year, like East is crappy.

Keep everybody.

We'll be competitive.

We'll be a top six seed.

You'll be happy.

And then we get Dane back and either we get Damian Lillard back, or we get Damian Lillard the trade contract back, and we flip him for something.

Or he's Dana Barrow circa 1998.

But, like, I don't understand how that's a plan to be an actual championship contender again.

Where are all the other players coming from?

Like, who else is joining?

I just don't think there's a trade yet, and I don't think he's it's up to him, and he doesn't want to get traded.

That it is firmly up to him.

Like, the interesting thing about this is you would think that some people with the Bucks nah, maybe you wouldn't.

Initially, I was like, well, the Bucs could see this as an opportunity.

Like, look, the writing's on the wall.

Dames hurt for a year.

We don't have any bullets left in the trade machine.

Like,

it might be actually not

so much in our worst interest to move on now and get everything we can possibly get.

Get young players, assets, picks.

And they've actually gone the other way.

And I think they're probably right.

He's 31.

He's the third best player in the world.

Yeah.

And he would have loved playing in the game today because bodies were flying.

Yeah.

And we don't trade players like that.

No team should trade players like that.

We'll figure enough out and try to figure out a path, whether it's one years, two years, three years.

We've seen players stick with their teams.

I think they've gone hard the other way.

Like, no, hell no, we're not trading him.

You're under contract.

Like, also, you're under control.

I'm not going to watch this series and not think that you're two moves away from being in the finals that are and you have Giannis.

But what are the moves?

That's I know, but I'm just, if I'm trading him and I'm, I'm trading him for a bunch of Houston stuff that, you know, they lost in round one.

All right.

All right.

Durant, Durampas.

Then it's like a big.

So you agree with me that Giannis, like, let's not even discuss this until December, January, February, because nothing's going to happen.

I don't, we all know who the teams would be, what the offers would ballpark be.

I think there's one more team that's not going to mention because it wouldn't make sense now, but it might later.

Wouldn't it make sense?

The Nets of Brooklyn.

Because they could set up.

So not to bring the Celtics into this, although I love to do it.

But Celtics, after they lose the lottery in 2007, you would not have thought they were a KG team.

Then they trade for Ray Allen, and suddenly they have stuff.

And now maybe a KG trade.

I think Brooklyn could use the summer to set up, to stack some pieces

to be ready for a Giannis trade, right?

Maybe they take Drew Holiday from the Celtics.

Maybe they

use Cap Space and sign Nas Reed.

You know, they have all those picks.

I just feel feel like they could, it could be a two-part kind of offseason for them where they set up, hey, look at all these pieces we have now, Giannis,

and kind of hope that he gets unhappy.

All right, Minnesota, Houston, and then I think there's a gap.

We argued about the Minnesota thing, though, because we can't figure out what the trade is that's in it.

We'll get there.

Miami still trying to get in, I think.

Wow.

Spurs lurking.

Not sure, like, are we going to be that aggressive?

Is this the right time for us?

But lurking.

Knicks, I think, might not be lurking anymore.

I think they might be.

We're moving on.

Toronto wild card team lurking.

Yeah, because Messiah's just like,

you just don't know.

No, and I think there's this idea.

You had the relative who said five drinks at Thanksgiving and you're like, oh, God.

Well, and that and hovering over all of this is Durant's eligible for a two-year, $112 million extension.

And he's 38 is he going to sign it does he actually want to commit or does he want to maintain his flexibility uh do do the sons are they are working with him but does it behoove them to just trade him to where they get the most value even if that team is a rental team for kevin durant and is there a team that would trade for him we don't care if you extend or not we'll figure it out later toronto did this with kawai leonard and i think they have this idea like oh we can do that again the difference is they were like a 55 win team already.

Yeah, they were awesome.

And this is not a 50-year-old.

And they won the trade.

They traded, it was, what was it, DeRosa?

It was Hyrtle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I.

So the Minnesota one is complicated because right now, until the fiscal, the NBA year flips on July 1, Phoenix and Minnesota are both in the second apron.

You would have to be like, we're going to do this trade on July 1st, basically.

That's barring something that I don't understand happening, yes.

But then there's this weird thing where Gobert's salary goes backwards and him and DeFincenzo make like $47 million combined and Durant makes like $53 million.

And I still don't understand what's allowed and not allowed with this stupid second apron that I'll never forgive the stupid Players Union for agreeing to the hard cap.

Why don't we just call it the hard cap?

It's just malpractice.

It's malpractice by the Players Union.

I mean, is there a team?

I think Minnesota wants Durant the most from what I've heard.

Houston is like, I think there's a little bit of an internal GM coach,

different idea of how much they should or would trade for Kevin Durant.

Plus, if I'm Phoenix and you're building an offer around Jalen Green, which I think that's like the common sense salary to throw in.

How does that help Phoenix?

Jalen Green, Booker, Beale.

It's like, it just doesn't.

The Gobert thing's fun.

Gobert thing is like.

Gobert and DeFincenzo for Durant is just fun.

I don't know how that makes Minnesota closer to winning a title.

I think their their model would be

whatever we do, we get enough financial flexibility for the 25-26 season where we can pick up a Capella, a Brooke Lopez, like some kind of low-cost, decent center who can either start and play 20 minutes or

we start Nas Reed at center and go all offense and then that guy comes in.

I think they piece it together that way if they end up trading Gobert, which who knows if they're going to do or not.

I thought Durant to the Spurs was happening.

I'm suspicious if it cooled off because it makes me think maybe there's a different move for them.

I will say things are

a little bit of a minor trade back from two

and somebody moving up and overpaying to move up three spots.

Because

we talked about this last time.

You're putting Wemby with Harper

and Fox

and Castle and Sohan.

Is anybody making a three out of those guys?

Like the game we just went to?

How's the spacing going to be looking in that game?

Like, I just don't think that team makes sense.

And that's, that's, I still feel like in my heart that Vassell and Barnes and the 14th pick.

And like,

14 is a big one.

Houston has 10, too.

They have number 10 from Phoenix.

You mean for a move up?

No, for like for Durant.

Like throw out.

I wouldn't give up the 10th.

If I'm Houston, I'm not doing anything.

I'm waiting for December, January, February with a major star.

I do like the fit, though.

And Durant, yeah.

Well, we both heard that he would have mine, Texas.

Well, I just, I mean, he's from Texas.

The Spurs are also in Texas.

Yeah, there's two Texas teams.

There's something to the

Van Vliet stays and like they really, financially, it becomes actually very difficult.

And Van Vliet's salary is a critical critical variable.

Like, can they go down with him and out on an extension to make the apron math work?

But Van Vliet, Durant, Shengun as an offensive trio makes a lot of sense to me.

And then you just surround them with the Terror Twins and just athletes and defenders and just everywhere.

Like, that's a really good thing.

It's a team that needs him the most.

It's a really good team.

That's a team that's like, yeah, I mean.

You know,

can we beat anybody?

We would be favored against anybody except the thunder i don't know it depends how the offseason shakes out nuggets are not going anywhere unbelievable home crowd of empty seats um

not one of my favorite crowds not like the crowd we just sat in a game with nuggets are going to have a new gm i think by the way but that's a different story um well they

they hired the coach before they hired the gm

yeah the coach was already there though no i know is there a team you think that we haven't talked about for durant that should be trying to get durant

if you and if you had to bet would you bet on San Antonio then and come at swooping in?

I would bet on the state of Texas.

All right.

I'm betting on Minnesota.

I don't know.

I just think

when push comes to shove,

I think you have to look at the happiness factor

and wonder why he hasn't seemed to be in happy situations for seven years now.

What's going on?

Is that a coincidence or something more?

I already have wrong.

And also, and also, like,

he's going to, if he goes to Minnesota,

he's going to be the number two ball handling option to a young ascending star in Anthony Edwards, just like he was in Phoenix to Devin Booker.

Like, how does he feel about that?

There was always this push and pull of, like, am I standing in the corner too much?

Whatever.

Um, you know, do they cooperate enough offensively?

Is there a nice synergy between them?

And the same questions would come up again.

Are we sure we should cross off Detroit?

No, they're on my list.

I mean, I don't know that they've dabbled in it at all.

I don't know if there's, I mean, it's one of my favorite fake team fake again.

The East is going to be so bad.

Because you could just basically throw together

the last year at Tobias.

Isaiah Stewart gets you to 42 million.

Plus, you got to give me something.

You got some picks.

Or you got to give me picks.

Or you got to give me Ivy.

You got to give me something.

But yeah, the salary match is right there.

It's going to be texas cade durant i just can't wait to see what kind of life event you're having when the trade happens

well do i like you're you're going to be like uh in some swim in some over 40 swim meet in connecticut and like halfway through the breaststroke and the trade will happen

the next the next 72 hours i have a lot of stuff going on so i'm anticipating a trade happening in there and you know what so

can trades happen during the finals yes we've had trades during the finals denver made a couple trades trades during the Denver made a trade when they were in the finals, the draft pick trade, but they made a trade.

I actually went on the

finals?

Net salary dump to set up the Durant Kyrie free agency of Bonanza.

They've made a salary dump during the finals.

I don't remember who it was off the top of my head.

I've already found my point guard for the Nuggets.

For the

$6 million taxpayer, Russ is out.

I know.

Resigned Russ at a bigger number?

Yeah.

i'm buying some uh some property on luke canard yokic island oh yeah luke canard he might shoot 60 on threes can you imagine luke cannard playing with jokic how much fun would that be has luke canard ever been on the right team he's been in the league like 10 years has there ever been a good situation for him you get to play with jokic and just do weird lefty shit and shoot threes i thought the i think the clippers thought they would be the perfect situation for him and they just never trusted him to play defensively in the playoffs.

I like that.

What?

Luke Kennard?

That's $6 million for Luke Kennard.

I can't believe that's coming out.

Yeah, I'm already doing my free agency homework.

Just groggy, just groggy building.

Nobody has money.

Everybody's either, it's either $6 million or $10 million for like 30 guys.

And Brooklyn is the one that has money.

And I honestly think Brooklyn is just going to tank again.

Just give us your

dead money and picks.

We're just rolling it again.

Well, shit, after what Presty did, that that should be the model for five of these teams.

I never understand why more people haven't emulated that.

Everyone's so afraid of the salary cap four,

but the salary cap four only counts like after on March 1st.

You can go into the season with like a $30 million team.

No, I think they changed that rule.

You got to get to the floor sooner, no, I think.

Oh, did they?

That was part of the new CBA for the

kids.

Trying to continue to ruin roster fun.

Well, I mean, I think that was when you said the players got hammered with the hard cap.

I'm calling it the hard cap now.

Enough with this apron language.

Second apron is a hard cap.

If we can't make a Kevin Durant for Rudigo Baron, Dante Jeff and Chendra trade becomes impossible, like we're doing something wrong.

You know, honestly, you go to the other thing is you go to Real GM and you look at the traded picks.

These like swaps of swaps of swaps.

And it's like they get the second and fourth best of these picks.

I'm not reading that whole paragraph.

Just wake me up when it's decided who's picking where.

I feel like Stern would have created a rule to just squash all this.

You can't trade a pick that's already been traded.

He would have had some sort of swaps upon swaps upon swaps.

No Larry Legend sighting tonight, right?

I thought it was a big mistake.

I've heard, I cannot confirm because I have not seen him.

I've heard he's been here for their pre-draft workouts.

They still bring him up for pre-draft workouts, which means he's either leaving or they've just, he doesn't want to.

Can we, before because we're super groggy can i throw this at you yes

most shocking player you think

could get traded over the next three weeks this is so exciting that

wouldn't be a hundred percent shocking to you mine is devin booker

i mean a hundred percent shocking means 100 shocking means like it would not spurs have traded wembinyama like that's that's a hundred percent shocking anything short of

I don't think Devin Booker is getting traded.

He's my guy.

Why?

I'm just prepared for anything with Phoenix.

Like, the easy pick would be Lamella Ball.

I mean, I could make a

more, a more aggregatable pick than that.

You could?

We could.

We both could.

Either one of us could.

If the Warriors tried to trade for Giannis, is Jimmy Butler in the deal

salary's gotta match jimmy butler getting traded to the sad sack bucks he's from he went to college i know but like what is he gonna do

throw a rebellion until they buy him out and trade him some or and he can go somewhere else i don't some big salary's got to be in that deal if you go and look at the warriors salaries now you're trading yannis after said he's not going to i'm saying in like december january february

why would you do it like that mid-season like is it going south and i just say say, I'm ready to get out of here.

No, because 13 and 20, I don't want to waste my career doing this.

Dame's not close to coming back.

Devin Booker,

he's the top Devin Booker.

I've heard he's excited about Jordan.

Okay.

And not as concerned as I would be personally.

So give me a pick then about who's going to be on the team in two years with me if I'm Devin Booker.

Like, is it all right?

Oh, so a Godoro.

A Godoro.

Ryan Dunn with two ends.

I'm passing to you.

Also, they're in the west

in the west let's play okc all right well why don't we we

okay we're getting it's late

it's late you said not 100 shocking

but shocking no but but very shocking very shocking but not

luca getting traded on a saturday night oh my god shocking

unemployed actually luca would have been a good guess unemployed zach sleeping sleeping soundly in bed waking up to a phone full of messages.

All right, then let's just do this.

Are you 100% sure

that LeBron James is going to be on the Lakers next year?

No.

Well, then that's going to be my pick.

Give me the reasons.

Well, I just, I mean, no one's, I'm, I have anticipated all along he's going to finish his career with the Lakers.

Yeah.

I don't think he wants to leave Los Angeles.

If I were him, I would view the Luca trade as like, this is fucking perfect.

I can, I can be off the ball a little bit more, blah, blah, blah.

He does have a player option, and the feeling is just everyone just kind of assumes, well, I'll figure something out.

It's been too quiet.

Normally, he creates like the

news for a day kind of storyline, like LeBron James might

not stay with the Lakers.

It'll be something.

And it's like, oh, here we go.

And then it turns out he's staying.

This time around, it's been super quiet, which makes me suspicious.

I've thought the same thing.

But if he's opting out or if they're pushing for a trade, I mean, I talked about the Cleveland stuff a month ago.

I don't, there's just not a lot of places.

Did you?

I missed that.

I thought it was like a DeAndre Hunter, Jared Allen for LeBron

is a fun one.

It is definitely a who would have a longer meeting to decide whether they should do it or not.

I don't see how he goes to any other team than Cleveland if he leaves the Lakers.

I'm trying to think who else is a good answer for this.

Something Clippersy.

Something Clippersy.

Harden's a good answer for this.

Or even Kawhi feels like a.

Well, nobody's trading for Kawhi.

Harden's a good answer for this.

John Morant.

That's a good answer for this.

Embiid?

I just can't imagine trading for Embiid.

The contract is just so onerous.

Even Sarver's like, yeah, I don't know.

Other thing is Knicks coach, Mike Brown, Taylor Jenkins, come on down coach yeah it seems like that man probably some mystery candidate i envisioned a uh a joint rick carla mark dagnall press conference at the finals when they both announced that their teams have denied the knicks permission to interview them

but is it are they doing it just to

are they trying to spite the owner by doing that Or are they doing it so that whoever they hire, nobody's going to say, why didn't they try to get Emi Doko?

And they're just checking boxes.

I don't know.

It's all very strange.

I don't know what they're doing.

Public due diligence.

If that's your reason, if you're doing public due diligence, I don't get it.

Then you should just call for Spolstra.

You should call everybody, but we like, why stop at Billy Donovan?

Why just keep going?

If you're trying to show your fans, we did everything we could.

See, I had a couple of Miami fans of my life who were furious that I'd wanted to blow up the heat.

Really?

And I'm like, why?

You guys are going to go 42 and 40 for the next five years.

You pay Tyler Hero $55 million a year?

What kind of team are you going to have?

Did you see the clip that I, again, I assume everything is AI, so maybe it's AI.

The Tyler Hero doesn't think history happened before 1950.

He doesn't believe anything that happened before 1950 for him.

Not a lot of great follow-up questions by the other two guys in the video either.

I would have been like, so World War II.

Just

made up?

Like, it's right before 1950.

I don't know for sure, but it felt like there might have been some weed involved in that video because they seemed delighted to talk about how history couldn't be trusted before 1950.

So that was not AI, that was real.

It was unfortunately real.

Uh, all right, any other concluding thoughts?

Anything we did not talk about?

Game four of the finals, awesome.

Indiana, awesome finals host.

Indianapolis, awesome finals host.

Lots of X's and O's.

We talked Durant, we talked Giannis, we talked offseason, Nick's coaching search.

Johnny Furfe came up at one point.

Anything we did not hit?

Uh, guy in front of me was wearing an Artes jersey, Artes Pacers jersey.

I really respected it, number 23.

uh i really like seeing the different jerseys

i like that they bring old pacers in there like austin crocher we got to see him jeff foster

yeah jeff foster every rudge miller was wearing a dale davis jersey which i really enjoyed dude i loved dale davis as a as a teenager darnell hillman was in the house with billy keller Oh my god.

It was just, this is, I mean, they've had professional basketball here since the beginning of the ABA, and they have real history and have had some fun teams.

And they're also kind of like

there are these teams like the Suns are like this in the West, where they've just been good a lot, like for the most of their history and just never gotten over the humped.

They're good enough.

Yeah,

and really.

Roy Libert was there, by the way.

Roy was there?

Shout out to Roy.

I didn't see him.

Unbelievable career arc.

Yeah, there are pacers strewn all over the place.

That's great.

I love it.

Derek McKee was was here.

I saw Derek McKee was in the crowd.

It's so much more fun from

a content standpoint if the Pacers won tonight.

You think so?

More fun?

Because I do think OKC is good enough that they could have come back from 3-1.

We wouldn't be having a who's your front runner for finals MVP discussion.

Well, my degenerate friend Sal House on one of my threads, they were saying Siakam's odds dropped by like the third quarter.

He was like plus 250 for finals MVP.

It It was like 30 to 1 before the game.

What was Halliburton?

Going the other way.

Yeah.

Now it's, I think, SGA.

I was with you guys after the Eastern Conference finals, you and Ryan.

I just feel like if there's one guy that defines the team, I don't really care that another guy averaged like three more points per game than him during the series.

Like Halliburton should have been.

This was Maxwell's finals MVP.

It was like this, too.

Like,

if you're going to start measuring the stats and the stats are slightly better, I still want to default to you're by far the best player in the team and the other team is planning against you should matter.

Well, also, the whole style of play is because of you.

Right.

All of it, like most of it emanates.

It all starts with he just doesn't get the credit for it like Nash did and Chris Paul did.

I think we understood that with those guys.

I mean, all of us, tomorrow is going to be, is he a superstar?

That's what the, that's what the listen, people should go to one of the games and watch how good Ludovic is.

I, I just, I can't say it enough times.

You can't go buy him.

And he's too fucking strong and he's allowed to,

he's figured out all of the lines he can get away with with the physicality and you can't go buy him and he can guard everybody in the league and he's the best defensive player in the league.

And Caruso might be in the top five and Jalen Williams might be in like the top 10.

It's it's actually

yeah, they have a whole like a bunch of guys who could have made all defense teams that were not eligible.

Jalen Williams can guard everyone on the Pacers.

I'm talking about like Caruso, Artenstein, Holmgrin.

None of them were eligible for all defense.

They still had two guys on the all defense teams.

Yeah.

Dort should not be possible.

Like you should not be able to be that big and able to guard a quick Twitch guy like Halliburton.

Like those two things should be incongruent.

He's one of those guys.

He's actually kind of stunning in person, how big he is.

Yeah, he's huge.

He looks like if you just saw him

walk, like if he was at the gym wearing workout clothes and he walked in, you wouldn't know what sport he played.

You'd believe he could be a tight end in football, whatever ambassador.

He wore a bouncer outside of a ball.

Yeah, he could be anything.

You would be like, this must be a pretty rough bar if they have this guy as the bouncer.

Right.

He walks out for a meeting.

He could be the bad guy in an action movie.

Like he's just got a presence to him.

And I felt like he really wanted to fuck with Halburton tonight.

Like he was going out of his way to mess with him.

It was interesting.

Halberton was so rattled by the calls he didn't get that when he finally got a call, he was holding his hand.

Did you see that?

He was holding his hands up like, I got a call.

I can't believe it.

Then he made a free throw.

He's like, I made one.

And

he's just completely lost his confidence for drawing him.

Whereas Shay is always going to be able to get his.

All right.

I think that's it.

I think we covered everything.

We did.

I had a great time, even though I'm, um,

I had a really important milkshake at halftime.

They have a great shake place in Indiana.

And it was basically like doing cocaine and really carried me through the second half.

I get stressed so much.

I get stressed with halftime runs, whether it's bathroom runs, snack runs.

Yeah.

And I'd be like, I can't miss a pizza.

I don't want to get back there.

And I missed the first three.

I had specialized food stops.

And one of them was this shake place.

Okay.

Vanilla, chocolate?

I had an Oreo shake.

They had like six shakes.

It's like a pretty famous Pacers thing.

So I had to try it.

And I was like, I'm just going to drink like one-third of it.

I was like, oh,

I was like, mauling it.

I had like four-fifths of it.

Shout out to it.

So that really helped me.

Shout out to the second half.

Because it was a tense game.

That's it for the Zach Lowe show.

Thank you to Bill Simmons.

Thank you to Jesse and Jonathan on production.

And

I will be back.

I'm not sure when I will be back.

My show is supposed to be on Monday, but the next game is on Monday night.

So I'm not sure.

Yeah, we'll figure it out.

We're going to figure something out.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

2-2, baby.

What else could you ask for?

Three games left, max in the season for the NBA championship.

Phenomenal finals.

Phenomenal finals.

I'd give it either an A or an A plus.

Great stuff.

It's for the real Hoopers, for the real hoop fans.

There you go.

Bill Simmons, everybody.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

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