Huge Playoff Takeaways With Kirk Goldsberry, Plus a Deep Dive Into Wolves-Lakers With Jon Krawczynski

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Ball over everything.

All right, coming up on the Zach Lowe show, Kurt Goldsbury and I react to all the games from Wednesday night.

We look ahead to Bucks, Pacers, Nuggets, Clippers, Pistons, Knicks.

We hit everything.

The physicality, Jimmy Butler's injury, Jalen Green's explosion, Jalen Brown's explosion.

And then John Krasinski from the Athletic on the very strange Wolves Lakers series.

A super awesome deep dive.

Hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show.

It's Thursday morning.

Three more playoff games in the books.

I was up till 1-1:30 watching film.

I'm on no sleep.

Let's go, Kurt Goldsman.

How are you?

I am terrific, Zach.

Always great to be with you during the playoffs, especially, but also running on less sleep than normal.

Sleep.

Who needs it?

Actually, I do.

Okay, briefly, last night, here are the most important things that happened.

And we'll circle back.

We'll circle back to all this stuff.

Jalen Brown, massive statement.

I'm here.

I'm healthy.

I'm ready to explode for 42 minutes with Jason Tatum out and massively important sign for the Celtics.

Bloodied Christophe Sporzingis was a fun thing that happened.

My God, the physicality in these playoffs.

But if you're going to bookmark two things that happened last night for the long term, one is Jalen Brown announcing, I'm good.

We're good.

No Jason Tatum, no problem.

Orlando's offense still stinks.

Franz Wagner's jumper still busted.

Hitch, still present.

2-0, Boston.

Thing number two, obviously, Jimmy Butler's pelvic contusion.

Undercut accidentally,

I was glad no one tried to make a thing out of it.

Ahmed Thompson lost his balance.

There's a collision.

Jimmy Butler falls, plays eight minutes.

The Rockets win a rock fight where there are like nine near fights and scrums.

Tari Eason threw a towel at Pat Spencer, who was like implausibly involved because Butler was out.

Pajemski was saying, Jonathan Kaminga played.

They ran out of guys and Jonathan Kaminga actually got on the Steve Kerr looked on the bench like, is Bogan available?

No,

Kaminga, get in.

And he stunk to, much to my chagrin, as a Jonathan Kaminga fanboy.

Rockets win, Butler prognosis, TBD.

And then in the other game that probably nobody watched, Donovan Mitchell scored 10 points in two minutes to ice a frisky Heat Cavs game, which we will talk about.

Those are the headlines from last night.

1-1 Warriors Rockets of all those series is the fun one to watch.

But let's briefly hit tonight's game.

It's 9.30 in the morning.

I don't want to belabor these games because they're coming on tonight.

But we have to start with the 10 p.m.

game.

Clips Nuggets, game three, first playoff game in Inuit Dome.

It's going to be rocking.

This has been the series of the first round, and the biggest story in the NBA is Kawhi Leonard.

You were up close with the Kawhi Leonard experience as it petered out in San Antonio.

Um,

what is it like for you to watch this guy look like all of a sudden Peak Kawhi is back, pouring in 39 points, 15 of 19 shooting, getting to any spot, any matchup, and just getting steals, looking like, oh yeah, this is the guy that I voted for for MVP eight years ago.

What has it been like for you to watch this?

Yeah, it's like Bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

I got George Carlin.

I got a phone booth.

And in 2016, 2017, when I was among the people who thought this guy was one of the best players on planet Earth, I thought we at the Spurs could win titles with him as our centerpiece.

And I never thought I'd saw it again.

You know, it didn't end great with Kawhi in San Antonio.

Everybody knows that.

But it's incredible to watch.

He's averaging 1.61 points per shot in the series in the postseason.

That's like batting 600 Zeklow in baseball.

It's insane to watch.

I never thought I would see it again.

The Nuggets have no answers for him.

That's not surprising if you watch Denver all year long.

What is surprising is that Kawhi Leonard looks to be right now the best player in the NBA postseason, which I never thought I would say again.

I'd say that we've all said that previously six, seven, eight years ago, but here we are in 2025 watching Kawhi Leonard blend volume and efficiency as a scorer better than anybody.

in the postseason and of course playing incredible defense on the other end as well and playing 40 plus minutes whatever the clippers need I'm like you, I never thought I would see it again.

I gave up on it.

Even as they finished the season roaring to a whatever record in their last 30 games, saying to the world, we can compete with anybody in the West, maybe even Oklahoma City, who we might see in the next round.

And oh my God, the thunder.

Holy crap.

Even as that was happening, my brain has just been so conditioned to Kawhi getting injured and bad things happening to the Clippers.

And Kawhi has not finished a season healthy since the bubble five years ago.

That's the last time he played in the Clippers' last game of the season.

And so I just, my brain just wouldn't let me consider that this was actually a tenable possibility.

And knock on wood, it's only been two playoff games.

And, you know, we've seen him play two, three, four, six playoff games, and then something bad happens.

But this is unbelievable.

I mean, this is a two-time finals MVP, a two-time defensive player of the year.

You mentioned one point, point, whatever, six points per shot.

29 ISOs in this series against the Nuggets, 1.375 points per possession.

That is just bonkers.

And it's like Aaron Gordon sometimes, if there's an adjustment, I'm looking for, not looking for, but I'm interested to see how Denver guards the

when Kawhi brings Jamal Murray's guy into the two-man action.

They've been mostly defaulting to just, all right, we're going to switch.

We don't want to get ourselves in rotation and giving him the Jamal Murray matchup.

And Jamal Murray's got no shot.

I mean, Kawhi Leonard is like a tank running over him.

And I'm watching these games thinking, man, do you not want to?

I know you don't want to get in rotation, but it's like if Norm Powell's the screener, I know Norm Powell can flare out for threes, throw in some hedges, make Kawhi pass, make Kawhi think, make Norm Powell make plays in space or whoever it is.

I'm interested to see that.

But this is like,

I mean, it's no secret that I love Kawhi as a basketball player.

I was one of eight people who voted him MVP in 2017, the year Russ won.

He's played some of the best games I've ever seen in big stages, including game six in Dallas in 2021, one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play for the Clippers.

That was for the Clippers, but for any team.

And I said this with Bill the other day.

I don't remember the last time I was so dead wrong about a team

as I was about the Clippers.

The Thunder are the franchise of the year in the NBA.

If you win 68 games, that's what you are.

The Clippers are the co-franchise of the year.

For this team to lose Paul George in a move that was clearly like,

we just don't think

this year is over.

We don't know what's coming next, but this year is over.

And win 50 games in the West, not the JV East, like, yay, the Bulls won 37 games in the East.

Okay, this is the real varsity NBA.

And go toe-to-toe with the Nuggets and

be the better team, I think, through two games.

And I just, I thought I took the under.

I thought it was over.

I'm like, without Paul Jordan, it's going to be like hard in holding down the fort when Kawhi is inevitably injured.

This feels just like a nice little cute placeholder until we figure out what the next iteration of the team is.

And here they are.

And they nailed every free agent signing, Derek Jones, Chris Dunn, on and on.

Ty Lou is as good as it gets in the NBA, but it doesn't work at this level without this Kawhi.

And I just never thought we'd see it again for a sustained period of time.

But he's been unbelievable.

He's been great.

He looks like Kobe.

And I don't say that lightly.

And when he was drafted, it was a lockout summer, and they couldn't really work out with him.

Remember when he couldn't shoot?

Remember that coming out of San Diego State?

He was the 15th pick in the draft.

His ceiling is Bruce Bowen, ladies and gentlemen.

That was not an uncommon scouting report when he landed in San Antonio.

His ceiling is Bruce Bowen.

The Spurs think they found the next corner 3D guy.

Well,

Chip England deserves a lot of credit.

Kawhi deserves more credit, but they couldn't work out together in the summer of 2011.

I think you've written about this, but you know, they modeled, they looked at Kobe's game and they looked at Kobe's shots and they looked at how we could build a portfolio of ISO heavy

dominance.

And they shared shared a vision.

Obviously, Kobe was a role model for anybody growing up playing hoops in Los Angeles in the early 2000s.

And Kawhi is no exception.

But when he hit that shot against Gordon off the right elbow, it looked a lot like the Kobe shot in Phoenix.

And again, I don't make these comparisons lightly, but both you and I know that Kawhi Leonard is capable of making some of the biggest shots in some of the biggest games in this sport.

We've seen it for years.

We didn't think we'd see it anymore, but he is dominating this series.

You know, Denver is kicking the Clippers behind when Kawhi is out of the game.

Their net rating, I think, in those precious minutes is plus 10 or something, Zach.

So he is the MVP of this series.

I don't think that's an exaggeration.

And I'm a huge

Jokic guy.

But Kawhi right now is the best player in this series.

And that is stunning to me.

That is absolutely stunning.

And I also want to echo your point.

Ty Lou remains one of the league's great coaches, and it's a shame he didn't get more attention in the Coach of the Year discussion.

I know you've gone out of your way to throw him some flowers,

but you're exactly right.

Getting to 50 wins in this conference without your best player, that is stunning.

So I'm just, as this series shifts back to Los Angeles, I mean, what, what do you expect?

What do you expect in games three and four?

Well, okay, to start here, I'm fascinated by how Denver

responds to a game that was a very frustrating loss for them.

There was some tension in that locker room after game two, from what I've heard from a bunch of people who were there.

And

some of it was just normal frustration after a tough loss.

Some of it was like, ooh, okay.

And this is a team whose rotation is very short, who plays three guys that

the Clippers respect as potential outside shooters, Murray, Jokic, and Michael Porter Jr.

Two of those guys run pick and roll together, which is great.

It's the best two-man game in the league.

The numbers are off the charts for it.

But when they do run two-man game together, that means two of those three shooters are on the ball, essentially, and no one else gets any attention.

And so there's this sort of battle there where the Clippers have all these responses to the Murray Jokic pick and roll.

And

no matter what it is, it's swarming the most threatening stuff in the middle of the floor.

You take one of those three guys off the floor, Michael Porter Jr., who responded nicely in game two.

The shooting quotient dials down to an urgent crisis level.

And they do it for defense.

They do it because it allows Jamal Murray to guard Chris Dunn instead of Norm Powell.

But I'm just, you know, I'm fascinated by how they respond.

Can Jokic get a little more momentum going in the post?

He's starting to get, I mean, Zoo,

Zoo's unbelievable on both ends of the floor.

I'm so happy for him.

He might make all NBA.

He might actually make it.

Stan Van Gundy mentioned he voted for him, third team.

He makes Jokic work so hard, and yet, 22 post-ups for Jokic in the series, 1.28 points per possession, or 1.25 points per possession, thereabouts.

Very good number.

He's starting to get a little momentum there.

You know,

Denver's,

this was one of the first games where I thought Jokic looked tired at points in the game.

He played the entire second half, and I flagged a couple of pick and rolls that I think were in the third quarter.

And as I mentioned, like Murray-Jokic two-man game is a very stressful play.

The Clippers' default strategy against that has been to kind of late switch it, to try to contain it and then late switch it.

And then

Jokic can exploit that with post-ups on on their guards etc couple times in the third quarter jokic did something which he rarely ever does

which is not pop to three and not roll to floater range he just kind of stood 19 20 feet from the basket and you can see zubats being like oh awesome i can just drop back and like worst case scenario is he gets an open 19 footer or a semi-open 19 footer it's great and so i'm interested in how much gas does he have enough gas to do this over and over again 43 44 45 minutes who's going to help him along for the ride?

How do they respond?

And then,

yeah, I don't know.

What are you looking for from either team?

I mean, what's an adjustment?

What's something?

Yeah,

I think this is breaking for LAC.

I think one of the, I've never called him LAC before, just now.

I think.

It's one of my least favorite chants in the whole league when they do LAC.

It's not happening.

It's a horrible chance.

Don't do it.

Well, on a macro scale, maybe

this weekend, not doing X's and O's for just a second.

Maybe this is the weekend the Clippers fans get a real identity.

This is the biggest moment for their new arena, their fan base, finally out of the shadows of the Los Angeles Lakers hosting incredible games in their brand new building.

Maybe the LAC era is here.

Ultimately, one of the clichés in pro basketball this time of year is what?

Role players play better at home in the playoffs, right?

Role players, and I think one of the biggest advantages, we can talk about Kawhi and Harden and Jokic and Murray all we want.

The Clippers are undeniably a deeper team.

The Clippers undeniably have more talent.

Norman Powell hit one of the biggest shots of game two.

Derek Jones Jr., Zubach.

The list goes on.

Ben Simmons is out there playing well.

They just have more optionality.

He's out there playing.

Took a shot.

Ben Simmons made a basket.

He's out there.

I remember telling Chris Vernon, like, here's what's going to happen two weeks before the playoffs.

I was on his podcast.

It's like the Clippers are going to end the season as the hottest team in the Western Conference.

And people like you and me are going to be looking at James Harden, Ben Simmons, and Kawhi Leonard and trying to make.

sense of what to do with this team that undeniably can play at a very high level.

And here we go.

Now they're playing the nuggets.

So long story short, I expect those role players to be a little bit better.

And I expect Denver's role players to be a little bit worse on the road.

And I think that breaks for

the Los Angeles Clippers to win these two games.

If I had to predict what's going to happen, I feel like Jokic and Murray, that two-man game is going to be great.

Harden and Kawhi are going to be good.

But it's going to be the Clippers role players, specifically guys like Norman Powell and Derek Jones, that rise up and make big plays and

take these games for the Clippers.

And Bogdanovich has done nothing in the series, and he's going to make some shots eventually.

And you just watch like Ty Lou's rotations.

Very simple rule.

Like, you know, they start a defense-first non-shooter and Chris Dunn, and then an offense-first

third, fourth scorer, Norm Powell.

When those guys come out, it's always balanced the same way.

Like Dunn out, Jones in, Powell out, Bogdanovich in.

And just watch Chris Dunn.

Because the smart thing that Ty Tylu is doing is he knows when we run the Harden Zubots pick and roll or the Kawhi Zubots pick and roll, which is, which is those things, those two two-man games operate much differently because of the way Harden works versus how methodical Kawhi is.

They know whether Jokic drops back, whether Jokic comes up to the point of the screen, and they'll mix up both.

They're going to pull in off Chris Dunn no matter where he is.

And so they'll move him around.

They'll put him on the weak side.

That's the easiest read for Denver's defense because weak side, that's where the help's coming from.

All of a sudden, he'll be on the strong side.

And there were a couple of times when Michael Porter Jr.

had him on the strong side corner and didn't pull in because that's strong side.

You're not supposed to help from there.

But when it's Chris Dunn, you are.

Then at the end of the game, they set staggered screens with Zoo and Chris Dunn as the other screener.

So you're taking the help guy, putting him in the action.

It's just like they're mixing it up and keeping Denver just off balance enough.

I can't wait for this game.

We're talking about all-time heavyweight players with Hardin, Kawhi, Jokic.

And, you know, look,

I admittedly am higher on this guy than almost anyone in the world outside of Calvin Booth, maybe.

I watch these games and I watch

Russ and Peyton Watson getting almost all the bench minutes, two guys who are not going to get guarded on the perimeter.

It's fine.

We all know this.

This is not to bad mouth any of these guys.

It's just what it is.

And Jalen Pickett comes in and they don't trust Jalen Pickett.

He might play one stint, not a second.

Julian Straw, there's injury and inability to earn the coaching staff's trust on defense

has been a big little has been a big little a big little subplot for the nuggets because they really needed him to become a rotation player this year because of his shooting and he just hasn't been able to earn the trust injuries haven't helped and i wonder if they'll even dust him off a little bit forget zeke naji that's over i mean when you they're playing dj as the backup center in game two i couldn't believe it okay any last thoughts on this game no i can't wait i cannot wait i think you know we haven't talked enough about Joker, but I think everybody knows how both of us feel.

I think this is another tremendous stage for him to just go crazy.

And, you know, with all due respect to Ty Lou and Zubats, I think Nicole Jokic has an opportunity to carry a team in a harsh environment once again.

So I just throw a little more shine on there.

I can't wait to watch it is the headline.

I think we share that opinion, Zach.

You know who we haven't talked about enough?

Because their series has been such a freaking massacre.

The winner of this series gets the Oklahoma City Thunder, who are up 2-0.

They have outscored the Grizzlies by 70 points in two games.

The 118.99 game two, 19-point win.

That's a nail biter relative to game one.

The Grizzlies look.

You know what the Grizzlies look like?

They look like a team that has no identity because they fired their coach a week before the season ended, completely scrapped the offense that they had committed to with all the cutting and close-up.

And now it's like Jaron Jackson Jr.

is either going one-on-one against one of 19,000 elite Oklahoma City defenders or standing on the perimeter spacing the floor for Zach Eady doing nothing.

Jod's just out there kind of having, they just look rudderless.

Small nitpick with what you just said.

They fired coaches, which is different than what the Nuggets did.

I think that's a big point.

And when you prepare for the playoffs, it is like a war room where multiple coaches are studying film for multiple hours a day uh and they decided not only to get rid of their head coach but two or three of the under uh the supporting coaches uh and i think when i watch them i'm like what you guys have no game plan what is

there's no identity the identity they just need the season to be over they have no identity it's kind of well anyway um

But Oklahoma City, I mean, they look like they got shot out of a cannon in this series.

Like they've been saving their legs for months.

Caruso, who's been load managed all season, looks like he just started, like

he just came back from a six-month hiatus and he has no wear and tear on him at all.

The ball denial,

the getting over screens, it's just outrageous how good they are defensively.

Look, I picked them to make the finals.

Lots of people picked them to make the finals.

Actually, not as many people picked them to make the finals as you would expect, but I did.

Probably you did.

Others did.

It's tempting to watch these two games and be like, oh,

is this, are they going to go like 12 and one in the Western Conference playoffs?

There's going to be, and SGA hasn't even shot well yet.

Far from it.

They'll get stressed out at some point.

It's not going to be this series.

Maybe it's next series, but there's going to be a couple games where the half-court offense gets a little tight.

and a little wobbly and they'll have to work their way out of it but they look unbelievable and

we've been saying it all year.

The Hartenstein-Chett combo loomed as one of the great wild cards of the season.

Would it work?

How would it work?

I think it's been even more important for their offense than for their defense, although defensively it's mantras.

It just gives them another look to go to, some offensive rebounding, the Hartenstein floater, the Hartenstein short roll game.

Those guys are plus 18 and 30 minutes together.

Then they go five out with Chet and set all their guard guard screens or use Chet as a screener.

And you can see the defense being like oh my god what are we supposed to do they look so fresh so fast so goddamn nasty and again it's tempting to say oh they're just gonna roll and they might roll it this might be a 12 and two situation I suspect there'll be a series where it's 1-1 or they have a couple bad games here and there but I mean

The playoffs have a way of revealing who you are and revealing the true hierarchy of a conference.

And I don't want to belabor Memphis because I talked about it already.

Memphis has to be looking at this and saying, this is the measuring stick.

We're so far from this that we don't even know where to go from here.

That's how awesome Oklahoma City is looking.

And everyone, including Boston, who I picked to win the title and will still pick to win the title, particularly with Jalen Brown looking like that, has to look at this team and say, okay, that's the level.

Like, that's what we have to score 110 points against, that defense right there.

Good luck.

Yeah.

No notes.

I don't know how much you can learn from a series against said Grizzlies team, but one thing I think that's important, sort of building on what you said, is if we anticipate this Nuggets Clippers series to go six or seven, you're getting a wounded, older team in round two.

And I fully expect OKC to take care of business this weekend in Memphis and get another long period of rest and get ready for another beleaguered opponent to come in.

Whoever wins this Clippers Nuggets series will probably be in a little bit rougher condition than the Young Bucks from OKC.

I love their depth, and that seems like a cliche, but what you just said, they have optionality.

Depth gives you a few things: it gives you optionality with the lineups, but it also gives you fresher legs on defense later in the game throughout a series.

Their ability to play seven, eight, nine guys, ten guys, and not miss a beat.

I think, in short, Zach Lowe, the Oklahoma City Thunder are built for war.

And I can't wait for them to get to the next round, in part because I want to see them try to do it against a little bit better opponent.

But I've seen nothing so far to dissuade me from the simple idea that they're going to win the Western Conference.

Can you imagine if they sweep Memphis and Nuggets Clippers is like a six or seven game just slug fest, what game one of that following series is going to feel like?

The Thunder with like eight days of rest, just coming out growling.

Um, they're also just such a smart team, just like a small example.

This is one of my favorite things in the NBA.

Nobody does this, not enough people do this.

Game two, by the way, you know, it's bad for the Grizzlies when my notes say things like, should they play Jay Huff?

Question mark.

We've reached the stage of the where's Jay Huff?

Um, a huff stuff.

Uh,

so there was a post, they tried to post up Jaron Jackson in the first quarter.

I think he had J-Dub on him.

Not a mismatch.

In fact, it's almost

getting guarded by Jalen Williams in the post is almost like

a misdemeanor assault.

And I mean that in a good way.

And Sante Aldama had the ball, and he was going to entry pass to Triple J.

He picked up his dribble like 30 feet from the rim.

SGA was on Sante Aldama.

SGA saw that.

And nine times out of 10, the player at SGA's spot is just, you know, just, it's another game, whatever.

He's guarding normally.

He lets the guy throw the entry pass.

SGA saw Sante Eldaman pick up his dribble, took three strides back, and was like basically doubling Jaron Jackson Jr.

from the front.

It was just like, you're not going to throw the ball in.

Go do something else.

And the Grizzlies were like, oh, you're not just going to give us the rote entry pass.

You're going to be this mean.

And the whole possession just died.

I love watching the Thunder.

They're incredible.

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Very quickly on the first game tonight, Knicks Pistons.

Again, opening at 7 p.m.

I don't want to get too far into it.

This feels like a capital M moment in the Tom Thibodeau era of New York Knicks basketball.

Like, are you actually this good of a team?

Is the cat trade actually going to pay dividends?

Is this Hart, Bridges, Ananobi, Brunson, cat thing?

Again, gaps emerge, right?

The Celtics are the measuring stick in the East.

You're 1-1 against the Pistons, young, hungry, physical, wildly untested, overmatched talent-wise, and you are 1-1 going into Detroit.

Your offense in game two looked as if you had never seen the concept of centers guarding Josh Hart and wings guarding Carl Anthony Towns.

Guess what?

You've seen it since literally opening night of the season.

That's how Boston guarded the Knicks.

And they just sort of like, I guess all we have is Jalen Brunson doing stuff, and it wasn't enough.

And

look,

there's a lot of counters they can go to to get cat unlocked, to get more variety in their offense.

but this feels like

put up not put up or shut up because it's game three but this feels like the next few games of this series if detroit can take these guys to seven

like we're going to learn a lot about the knicks this feels like a time this feels like a statement moment for the knicks and i want to come out mix up some variety use bridges more you know what if if a wing is if tobias harris is on cat you can still run Brunson cat pick and rolls.

They've run 21 Brunson cat pick and rolls in two games.

That's not enough.

That's you surrendering to what Detroit wants you to do.

And guess what?

When you run it, Tobias Harris is staying attached to Cat a lot and Brunson gets easy driving lanes.

You get switches.

Like they just got to make Cade work on defense.

Post up Anadobe on Cade.

Put Anadobi into pick and rolls as a screener or a ball handler.

It's like more stuff.

And credit to Detroit.

They're so mean and so nasty.

And Cade is so ready for all of this.

But New York should win this series.

They should should not be having this hard of a time against a strategy they've seen a million times.

Every smart team plays the Knicks this way.

I want to show up tonight angry and efficient and calculated.

I want to see that.

To quote Kareem from Subway Takes, 100% agree.

I think the Knicks are in trouble.

I'd go a little bit further.

The biggest stat here is about that starting five, that starting five that they put all their poker chips into the middle of the table for, Zach Lowe.

They're losing this series when those guys are on the court.

That can't happen.

The only reason they won game one is campaign goes crazy.

The one moment I think the Pistons were not ready for was it's Madison Square Garden.

It's game one of the playoffs.

Holy shit, we're not ready for this fourth quarter.

And to their credit, the Knicks took advantage of it.

And thank God they did if you're a Knicks fan, because that has kept you from being down 0-2 right now.

The other thing that caught my eye in this series was Beasley and Hardaway were awful, awful in game two from three-point range, and the Knicks still lost.

We've talked a lot about Brunson and the ISO play and the foul baiting, but I keep coming back to something you just brought up.

Where in the hell is Carl Anthony Towns?

When you get Tobias Harris on you, dude, You're supposed to be the best big man of your generation, one of the best scoring bigs of your generation.

You get Tobias Harris on you.

You need to go to work.

You need to do that barbecue chicken thing that Shaq's always talking about.

You need to go win that.

And he just disappeared when they needed him.

I blame it on him.

I blame it on coaching.

I blame it on lack of creativity.

Because look,

when they've put him in the post against Tobias Harris, I bet the efficiency numbers are pretty good.

Tobias Harris is making him take tough shots.

Shout out Tobias Harris, who has become kind of like an NBA nerd punchline, sort of stand-in for boring averageness.

He's been awesome in this series, and he's been like tough and fired up.

But yeah, Kat's got to get going.

They just got like, they just have to be better.

I've seen people say, you know,

less Josh Hart, more Deuce McBride, so that they can't do this gambit of putting a center on somebody other than Kat.

And clearly, they don't want.

They even took Paul Reed started on Kat and then they're like, you know what, Paul Reed, we're doing the same thing with you.

You guard Josh Hart.

Like, that's a cool idea.

I get the appeal of it.

You get much smaller.

And I, you know, Tibbs has shown, like, he put Mikhail Bridges on the bench in a bunch of games this season, including game one of this series.

He sat for a lot of the fourth quarter.

I just don't think it's realistic to say, just have,

have, cut in half Josh Hart's minutes.

I don't think that's going to be a solution.

He's been too important to their team.

There are other solutions that lay within this lineup that they have to unlock.

But enough, Nick's.

Credit to the next one.

One more Knicks point.

This is Nick's trivia with Zach Lowe.

Okay.

Zach Lowe, if you had to guess how many fouls Jalen Brunson has drawn in the first two games of this series.

I saw a graphic that listed all the fouls all the Knicks players have drawn, and it was Jalen Brunson, like I like maybe 25, I'm going to ballpark.

23 fouls.

No other Knicks player has drawn more than five.

He's essentially fouling out almost two pistons per game.

That's cool.

So his foul per falling over ratio is almost 50%.

Like he's probably fallen over 46 times and drawn 23 fouls.

I'm sure the audience of the Zach Lowe show wants you to chime in on, are you annoyed by Jalen Brunson right now?

I mean,

I get, it's just, I'm used to it, right?

But I am annoyed.

Like, he'll get, he'll get, he'll just get...

What annoys me is just when there's nothing happening and he tries to make it look like something's happening.

So they'll inbound the ball to him just out of a basket, like a baseline out of bounds.

Inbound the ball.

His guy will be like pressing him, just totally routine pressure, and he'll

just like, can you, how about you just bring the ball up to court, man?

Like, if you get someone up in the air on a pump fake and you try to jump into them, I hate that shit.

I think they should call that an offensive foul for every player every time.

But like, I get it.

An event has occurred that you've created.

When you've tried to create something from nothing, a non-event, that's what annoys me.

Let me ask you this, though.

On the general topic, now we're going to Warriors, Rockets, and Butler got hurt and all of this.

That series is insanely physical.

I mean, Draymond is in a semi-altercation every five minutes.

Every game, the commentators are saying how physical this is and how this is nothing like regular season basketball.

And my question to you, as someone who's worked in the league and probably had these discussions, is there such a thing?

We all want

like hard competition, more physicality, fewer free throws, fewer pauses to the game.

Uh, everyone enjoyed last year when the refereeing shifted mid-season to allow more physicality on defense, even though the leak was like, what?

Nothing happened.

We didn't tell anyone to do anything.

No one did anything.

There was no directive.

Is there such a thing as too big of a difference between regular season basketball and playoff basketball?

Because this is like football on television right now.

Hallelujah.

This was the top note I had for Rockets Warriors.

I mean, it's very annoying when the regular season is a different sport than the postseason.

It's rendered even more meaningless because the game is, it's like a different sport.

It's like a different sport.

So we just said Jalen Brunson has drawn 23 fouls in those two games, okay?

Shout out to the Pistons defense.

They're physical.

No notes.

How many fouls do you think Stephan Curry has drawn in these two pro wrestling matches in Houston?

Six.

I'm going to get six.

Oh, my God.

Six.

And everyone flexed on that one.

Yeah, you got it, buddy.

What are we doing?

Anyone who's watched Houston and Golden State has seen Curry been manhandled.

Apparently, in the regular season, you can't touch Stephan Curry, but in the postseason, you can wrap your arms around him.

Every time he comes off any kind of off-ball screen or on-ball action, you can put your hand on his hip and spin him around.

I don't care what the rules are, but you're exactly right, dude.

As an analyst trying to make sense of this sport, you're supposed to be able to learn from the regular season.

You're supposed to be able to strategize based on the regular season.

And if we're going to change contact allowances in these games so drastically, and you can say, Kirk, it's been like this playoff foul.

This Rockets Warriors series seems like the biggest chasm I've ever seen between what would be allowed in the regular season versus what is allowed in the playoffs.

So I I think there should be some level of expectation that the games get more physical.

But between that Brunson stat and that Curry stat, I think it's fair to say, like, what are we doing here?

What are we calling a foul?

And what are we not calling a foul?

Like, these games are dangerous.

I remember Jimmy Butler is laying on the ground and Stan Van Gundy is saying, well, these games are more physical than I'm like, yeah, of course.

This guy's getting an MRI tomorrow.

And then early in that game, Jalen Green dives into Stefan's legs on a loose ball.

Again, that's just playoff intensity.

Of course, there's going to be some of that.

But I think

you nailed it.

How can these coaching staffs and front offices prepare for the postseason when the rules are so drastically different?

Specifically those contact allowances.

Well, and Orlando, who can't score.

And has not been able to score all year.

Their only recourse against Boston is, A, Holt Paolo has a huge game, and he has

making the shots.

Boston is giving him enough of them that if they had any support for him at all, they'd be in these games.

And B, beat the shit out of the Celtics.

Just, they can't call everything.

They can't call everything.

Let's beat them up.

And guess what?

Jason Tatum's already injured.

And luckily, it's just a bone bruise.

He was doubtful.

Maybe if I suspect if the Celtics were down 1-0, he would have played, or if the Celtics had any fear of this opponent, he might have played, but he didn't play.

And to your point,

like the regular season probably needs to be a little bit more physical.

And the playoffs so far probably are a little too physical.

And the gap, just narrow the gap a little bit because you said the word dangerous.

I'm watching these games and I was thinking this before the Butler fall.

And again, that was an accident of just guys flying around.

Someone is going to get injured.

Like Jalen Green just runs into Draymond Green and just elbows him in the face.

And yeah, he got a flagrant, but someone is going to get injured or there's going to be a fight.

And that's cool.

Like we all like to watch fights.

Fights are cool.

Fights are cool right until someone on your favorite team gets suspended for game seven of a playoff series.

That's what's going to happen if they keep allowing just wrestling matches all over the floor.

All right, let's talk about Warriors Rockets.

1-1,

I think we all expected a long series.

I had Warriors in 7.

The crowd was chanting F.U.

Draymond, Steve Kerr, very offensive, not very, slightly upset by this.

I'm like, you know what?

If there's someone who brings this level of wrath upon himself, it's Draymond Green who is flailing and hitting people and getting, he's always tangled up, right?

And sometimes you watch the replay and it's like, I can't really tell whose fault it is that they're tangled up and they all fall over and someone gets called for a foul.

But when you're always tangled up, like you're just permanently entangled, it's probably your fault most of the time.

The biggest thing was the Butler injury.

Obviously, if he's, we don't know as a recording this what the status is.

You know, Tim Kawakami tweeted that there was some optimism that he had avoided some serious injury, but there's an MRI today.

Who knows?

Obviously, if he's out for an extended period, the whole series shifts into Houston's favor.

Pajemski was also sick.

And the other thing that happened was credit Jalen Green, who took a whole bunch of shit after game one.

He was awful in game one, responded with the most meaningful game of his career in the NBA:

38 points on 13 of 25 shooting, 8 of 18 on threes.

His shot selection was better.

Very few, if any, ISOs where he's just driving at Steph wildly.

Much more pick and roll, much more catch and shoot threes.

And look, I don't know again, like it's going to depend on injuries and who plays and who doesn't play.

The Quentin Post minutes were a gift for Jalen Green.

They were a gift for the Rockets because they gave them a place to attack defensively.

And Quentin Post had no shot in the pick and roll no matter what he did against Jalen Green.

Kavan Looney didn't really have a shot in the pick and roll.

And the more those big guys have to play, Golden State can finagle different ways.

They can play zone.

They can put Post on, you know, whatever, Jabari Smith Jr., just anybody but the main screen center.

They'll find him and they'll punish him one way or another.

But Jalen Green played a calm, sound game.

And

the Rockets' defense is what it is.

I want to shout out Tari Eason,

who

14 points off the bench.

I think they could actually go to him a little bit here and there if Steph is guarding him, which he is.

He has a decent power game.

He's made his threes.

He's a menace in transition.

You could not keep him off the boards.

And he's also had to guard Steph a little bit because of cross matches.

Like if Steph is on him and there's a stop, he's stuck on Steph.

He's done that really well when he's had to do it.

Obviously, they want Thompson and Van Vliet on Steph primarily, but Eason's done a really good job.

And just the Rockets are just going to, it's just unpleasant to play against them.

I don't know.

Did you have any takeaways?

It's hard to have major takeaways from a game where one of the three most important players plays eight minutes and is injured,

and they have to go so deep into their rotation.

But did you have any

takeaways from this game that's going to make you like, okay, now I'm watching for that in game three as we go to the bay?

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you.

If Butler can come back, I'll be interested in seeing if Golden State can win this series.

If he doesn't come back, I think it's Curtains because what I've seen is

Houston is just much deeper.

And if you look at the weak links on the Houston Rockets, they're a lot stronger than the weak links on the Golden State Warriors.

And I think Pods led the Warriors in rebounds in game one.

His absence was no

small issue here either.

And I know he was technically out there.

I hope he feels better.

I hope Jimmy Butler gets better better and is able to play because this series should go seven games.

But I think if Jimmy Butler is limited in any way, the stats point to that being curtains for the Golden State Warriors season.

I think he saved their chances to advance throughout the Western Conference playoffs.

And in an ugly series, they need him.

This series is so ugly.

Like among the 16 playoff teams I'd written down, Houston ranks 14th in offense and Golden State ranks 15th.

You know who 16th is?

I bet you can guess.

Memphis.

The Memphis Grizzlies.

So not counting the Grizzlies.

These are the two worst offenses we've seen.

And when you take Jimmy Butler out of that equation,

the Warriors are now left with no choice but to put in players like Kaminga and ask Quentin Post to play more minutes than he probably should and ask Moses Moody to take more shots than he probably should.

All of that production

going away

makes this break for Houston, obviously.

And I think, like I said earlier, the weak links in Houston, you mentioned Tari Eason.

You know, they have Stephen Adams coming in off their bench.

They have Jabari Smith Jr.

coming in off their bench.

One of the big macro trends in the 2020s in the NBA is depth is so vital, especially in the Western Conference as a differentiator between good teams and great teams.

Well, I know Butler and Curry are the biggest stars in this series, but the depth, that bench in Houston is so much better.

It's so much deeper.

And it allows them to do more things and play harder defense for a longer amount of time.

So long story short, if Butler can get back in, Golden State has a chance.

If he's not coming, I think this thing's over.

Javari Smith Jr., one of those guys who lost his starting spot this season.

Nobody quite knows what he is.

Does he have more ball handling in him?

Is he a four?

He's playing some three now.

He's playing some five.

Is he just a pick and pop guy?

Can he exploit mismatches?

He tends to fade away, blah, blah, blah.

Just a guy I'm happy to have on the floor.

I like his, I think he plays winning basketball.

He fights.

He plays hard.

He makes threes.

I think they could post him against Steph when Steph hides on him.

A couple of quick things from this game.

Jalen Green, 23 pick and rolls in game two, up from 12 in game one.

Um,

in terms of what his role was he shot 41 on catch and shoot threes this season 31 on pull-ups like redirecting any of his threes that way which they did last night is good and obviously steph is going to go at uh the big guys on houston on the pick and roll whether they're on moody whether they're stuck on draymond whatever interesting chess match going forward let's quickly go through the other series boston orlando and miami cleveland Do you have any thoughts on

let's start with Miami Cleveland because Miami made that a game and has actually scored pretty well against the Cavs through two games, almost 117 points per 100 possessions.

Hero was sensational, and I thought Spo, you know, I'd mentioned on Monday that too much hero isolation against Sam Merrill and guys, this is not really his game, not enough off-ball movement, flare screens, pick and roll screening, pick and roll ball handling, total sea change.

They had him moving all over the floor, doing all sorts of different things.

He was great.

They got it within two late in the game.

And then Donovan DeMitchell scored 10 points in two minutes and 10 seconds, if my math is right, on two crazy twos and two awesome threes.

Put the game away.

Cavs are scoring 133 points per 100 possessions.

They're going to win the series.

It's going to raise a lot of questions about Miami's future and like where is this team actually going?

Honestly, the best thing that's happened to Miami is that by making the playoffs, they got their pick situation in much better order.

So they will give their 2025 pick to Oklahoma City and their 2027 pick, top 14 protection to Charlotte, rolls over just one year.

If they had not made the playoffs, they were facing a scenario where they give unprotected 26, unprotected 28.

So they got that sorted out and they have the Warriors pick this year.

I don't know where they're going long term.

They're not going to win this series, but

talk about the Cavs.

What have impressed you about the Cavs?

The shooting numbers,

the depth on offense.

You said about Donovan.

I think that was a cool test last night.

Without Donovan Mitchell, that team is in trouble.

And that was going to be a very different story this morning.

We might have led with that story if Miami did what I thought they might do there for a minute, which was

Davion Mitchell turned into like Michael Jordan plus, I don't know, Kyle Lowry, some mix of those two players for about five minutes.

And Haywood Highsmith turning into Clay Thompson late in the game.

I did not have that.

Nicole Ovich turning into Nicole Nikolyovich late in the game

wasn't super helpful.

No, he cost them

the key moment of that comeback.

I thought he had a blunder that might have cost them.

But with Cleveland, you know, their offense is their

signature weapon.

Specifically, when it's the open, the ability to create open shots on the edges.

Last night, they were 22 of 45 from three.

You're not going to lose many games in any part of the NBA season if you're making 49% of 45 three-point shots.

And you have guys like Donovan Mitch Lewis, seven of 10.

Max Struss was good.

DeAndre Hunter hit his.

Sam Merrill.

Evan Mobley hit three threes.

So what sticks out to me is sort of the breadth and depth of their three-point attack and how that offense.

whether it's in transition or in half court, seems to be almost as good as Boston at reliably creating clean looks for their good shooters on the edges of the court.

The pace at which they play, and I'm not talking about fast breaks, I'm talking about every cut, handoff, redirect is done with such urgency and speed that you can see the heat being like, I can't, we can't even keep up with what's going on.

And you mentioned Struce, I think Struce is the poster guy for that.

He does everything at 100% speed and acceleration.

Every cut, every move, every bolt around a screen.

And

the passing is so fast that the ball is just ahead of the defense.

They're playing so together, so connected, and the heat just can't keep up.

The one thing that I do think is interesting is Kenny Atkinson has showed this throughout the season.

Until you force him otherwise, he is going to over-index on shooting at the expense of size.

And so you've seen Jerome playing a ton of minutes, Merrill playing a ton of minutes, Okoro playing very few, and Okoro thankfully made a corner three last night after looking like, uh-oh, is playoff Okoro back in game one?

Oh, my God.

And Dean Wade just six minutes.

It'll be interesting to see if and when they arrive at an opponent, and maybe it's not till Boston that forces them to reconsider that and what that does to their rotations.

Just small notes on Cleveland.

Sometimes I'm like, should they just play their starters more?

And last night there were a couple of funky substitutions where they brought Garland or Mitchell in a little earlier than usual to have them play together.

Like, should they just play Mobly and Allen together a little bit more?

They never play the Hunter at three lineup with the rest in the Struce spot, which is fine.

Like, Struce has been so good, it doesn't matter.

One of my favorite plays from the game, and this is where you know you have like, this is one of those plays that's a sign of a team with great chemistry.

Darius Garland gets a pitch ahead.

He's got Khalil Ware on him on the right wing.

Great miss.

He can dance.

He can go to work.

He can get, It's highlight time for Darius Garland.

Instead, he's like, I got Khalil Ware on me.

There's a small guy on one of our big guys somewhere.

I'm going to wait for that big guy.

And it's Jared Allen.

And Jared Allen comes rampaging into the paint, seals whoever the small guy is on him.

Entry to Jaron Allen and one.

That's a play.

That's a healthy, together, connected, happy team.

He needs much more from Bam, particularly when he's got smaller guys on him.

Love Bam.

Didn't do enough last night.

Boston, Orlando, I don't have anything else to say other than Boston has gotten 45% of their shots have been threes.

That's a win for them.

That's a lot.

It's a little less than their regular season rate, but it's still huge.

And every time Orlando does anything but switch, anytime they get into normal pick and roll rotations, Boston gets a three.

Jalen Brown was sensational.

I have nothing else to say about that game.

I love Orlando's future, but dude, do they need to find some catch and shoot help on that roster?

They thought that

really

they thought.

Is this second from 2021?

This is a shout out to Saruti and all the Magic brethren, but they thought they had it in KCP.

Franz, I thought, was trending in the right direction as a shooter.

And they essentially are bringing a knife to a gunfight when it comes to this three-point war they're having with the Celtics.

They don't have enough firepower.

I'm surprised they got to 100 points last night.

But dude, I like this team.

I like the core.

They don't have Sugs.

That's one of their most important pieces on both ends of the core.

Mo Wagner.

Mo Wagner as well.

Their rotation is limited.

We didn't expect them to beat the Celtics with this rotation.

I just think you can still learn from this series.

And guys, we need to have some more shooting out there.

We need to have some more reliable shooting out there if we're going to compete with the best of the East.

And I would say they have the potential to be the best team in Florida for a long time.

We just talked about the heat.

Southeast Division champions, baby.

41 to 41.

Hang the banner.

What I would say to Orlando is like, you're in a new phase of team building.

You need to learn from these games.

And what do I learn?

I think it was one of 15, one of 16, 2 of 15 from Franz and KCP, their supposed shooting in their starting group last night.

So I don't know what's going to happen in the next two games.

I saw our boss, Bill Simmons, was irate at the physicality coming from the Orlando Magic.

He took to Twitter/slash X last night and accused the Orlando Magic of being like children in a bouncy house flying around and torpedoing into his beloved Celtics players.

I'll tell you this.

I won't go in a bouncy house.

I won't go in.

If there's more than two people in a bouncy house, you might as well call an ambulance immediately.

When I go to children's birthday, but first of all, I was at a children's birthday party once when there was a gust of wind and the entire bouncy house tipped over and there was like screaming children screaming parents bouncy house when we when we moved into the burbs we have a decent sized backyard i wanted a trampoline and our insurance guy was like under no circumstances should you get a trampoline a bouncy house is like 10 times worse than a trampoline.

I won't go in it, Kurt Goldsbury.

I will not go in a bouncy house.

Now imagine if Goga was in that bouncy house, how dangerous that would be.

And you're jumping around and all of a sudden you're Christophe Sporzingis.

The line of the night, was it Scalabrini on the Celtics broadcast?

I want to give it credit.

I'm sorry if I get this wrong.

It was the play-by-play guy, but somebody, you know, when Porzingis is there bleeding from his forehead, somebody said the unicorn has lost his horn, and it was just perfect because it was right there where the unicorn horn should have been.

But you just hope the Celtics come out of this in one piece.

We want the full title defense.

And there's, you already said we lost Tatum for a little bit here.

Porzingis, that was pretty scary.

And you just hope that the Celtics come out of this in one piece.

Porzingis' rim protection has been awesome.

He got to the line a bunch last night because they were switching and they leaned into his post-game again.

Drew Holiday,

there's always like Drew Holiday, every one of these games, it's like,

Drew Holiday's been kind of quiet.

And then there's like a five-minute stretch where he decides, I'm just going to press someone, take their cookies, make a couple threes, and all of a sudden the Celtics reach a different level.

Last thing on the magic, you know,

a lot of the attention, and I think this is true, priority number one, getting a guard who can shoot and create off the dribble.

And we don't need to go through all the potential names now.

And I do think that should be priority number one.

I will say, the more I watch them, and I've said this before, the more I think they need, like, Wendell Carter Jr., I like him.

He's just not enough of an anything at center.

He's not enough of a roller.

He's not enough of a lob threat.

He's not a lob threat or roller at all.

He's He's not enough of a shooter.

He's not enough of a passer.

Mo Wagner is a nice backup.

They need a center who's enough of a something.

And I don't know if it's a pick and pop center, pick and screen and dive lob threat center.

Maybe they should do an aborted trade for Mark Williams.

I don't know.

Like they just need something from that spot to bend the defense more than Wendell Carter Jr.

and Goga, who has fantastic hair, by the way, and Mo Wagner are able to do it.

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Okay, I want to finish up with you on this.

Milwaukee, Indiana

resumes tomorrow night.

You want to talk about a franchise at a moment of crisis.

Doc's got the dock face going.

Mm-hmm.

Where you know the doc face.

How about the doc like i don't what is it where i've never seen anyone bend at the knees like doc does he's at like a complete right angle watching the game i i've never seen any it's one of the that's just his default pose in life i don't know does he see the game better um giannis is awesome

dame came back was fine looked a little tired at the end of the game kind of went into decoy mode as you'd expect all the rest of the starters have been poo-poo minus a million.

The bench, fine.

Like, you want to play more Gary Trent?

KPJ, Bobby Portis, that's all cool.

Like, they've been a little better than AJ Green.

The AJ Green, Giannis pick and roll with AJ Green screening, very effective.

They're all good.

My question to you: this is this, Kirk.

What is

no matter what lineup they play, Milwaukee has been so helpless defensively

and so just out of tenable answers that I'm sitting there like, what's the answer?

Because I'll tell you what, the answer is not.

The switch everything thing they did in game two was so bad and so obviously untenable that I couldn't believe Doc Rivers didn't scrap it through one quarter.

You're switching everything with Brooke Lopez guarding Tyrese Halliburton, with Damian Lillard guarding Pascal Siakam, with Bobby Portis guarding Tyrese Halliburton.

It's like a freaking buffet for the Pacers.

They can get Tyrese Halliburton or Pascal Siakam on any buck of any kind and just simplify the offense and go to work.

And once they get by the first level of defense, it's pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, and those are three or a dunk.

And the Bucs just were like, I guess we have nothing.

We can try zone.

Well, our zone is giving up.

Let me look up.

1.26 points per possession.

That stinks.

TJ McConnell's a zone killer.

They got a bunch of zone killers.

They can move Brooke Lopez around defensively.

It's like, if you're going to switch everything, the matchups don't even matter.

I'll tell you this, switching everything, not the answer.

I couldn't believe they stuck with it.

Is there an answer?

No.

They have dismantled a championship team.

A championship team.

Well, they were a champion.

I don't want to go too far back in NBA history, but I look at this as sort of a macro scale thing, looking at the new owner syndrome, if you want to call it that.

Firing coaches, trading star players,

making just blunder after blunder.

They got rid of Drew Holiday.

They got rid of Chris Middleton.

They got rid of Mike Budenholzer.

And this is what we have now.

And the key moment in game two was, you know, Damien, to his credit, hasn't played basketball or exercise in six weeks and comes out and makes a giant shot with two minutes and thirty seven.

Get it within two.

It was a two-point game somehow.

The next two possessions embody what you're saying.

Siakam comes down.

This is the biggest defensive possession of the Buc season.

Halfway through the shot clock, Pashcal Siakam is shooting a practice shot from the right.

You know why?

It's because they switched and they tried to do the scram switch, which is like the fancy thing where you switch and there's a bad matchup like Damian Lillard on Pascal Siakam.

And you scram, you re-switch so Dame runs somewhere else.

And you know what they did?

They ran around like the freaking three Stooges.

They didn't know where to run.

They ran into each other.

And you know who guarded Pascal Siakam?

Nobody.

And that's what happens when you play a kind of defense that you have not played the entire season against an elite offensive team.

If they come out switching everything like that in game three,

I'm going to throw something at the wall like I did when John Franco used to blow saves for the Mets.

I'm going to throw something at the wall.

Can you get on Twitch for that?

Can we get a Zach Low show Twitch feed where we watch the first few minutes of game three at Fizzle?

I'm going to get up like this and do the dot where I just bend over at a completely right angle.

How does he do that?

Just, I believe I can't even do it properly.

Hey, you never played in the NBA like Glenn Rivers.

Uh, the subsequent possession after that Siakam three was another wide-open three, this time from Nemhard.

Uh, and next thing you know, that two-point game is an eight-point game, there's a minute left, and we're talking about this being the end of an era in Milwaukee.

Um, and I'm not going to go into the sort of palace intrigue that could happen, but suffice to say, I think, like like the Phoenix Suns and like the Denver Nuggets, the Milwaukee Bucks, since getting to the finals, have really dismantled what made them great and thrown it away with a series of transactions and decisions that now have you on the verge of losing a first-round series to the Indiana Pacers.

You know who got really sad listening to that?

Devin Booker.

Devin Booker's postseason comments about how

what's really frustrating is how close we were three years ago.

And now this is where we are with everyone pouting and hating each other and firing coaches like,

you know, I drink cups of coffee.

Sad times.

Sad times.

You know what I say?

I was everybody, I'm sorry if I talk about the Spurs too much, but one of the things you learn there is they were relevant for 20 years and they made the finals six times.

14 times they didn't.

And they didn't, when they lost to Memphis in a 1-8, they didn't go fire pop and rc and all this

you can't overreact if you're trying to build a long-term thing whether it's phoenix or milwaukee you can't overreact to one disappointing postseason um if you're trying to you know i just how about this okay so so so you shouldn't fire your coach every year just every year fire a coach

i can't believe how common that is they should try to the sons should try to hire a head coach on a one-year contract be like like, look, let's be honest.

Will you sign a one-year deal?

Because you see how this goes.

Credit to Matt Ishbia, who dialed down the rhetoric a little bit in his post-game

bloviation.

Is that a word?

Saying, he did not say 26 out of 29 teams would change places with us as he did a year ago.

One of my all-time favorite MBAs.

I love that one.

Put that one in Springfield in my absurd quote, Hall of Fame wing.

They need

the wing of absurdity, which I once created for Grantland, and I had a whole series of stuff that was supposed to be in it.

Headlined by a sculpture of LeBron gesturing at J.R.

Smith.

Why?

Why?

Light years ahead is over there somewhere.

Oh, there's so much.

Joe Johnson saying, it's not that bad here about Brooklyn.

That's one of my all-time favorites.

Nico saying, I didn't know he was that important to us.

I can't even.

I can't even.

We're making a wing here.

We need to include all the people.

This is a separate off-season podcast.

I can feel it coming.

Where was I going with this?

Oh, Ishbia.

And then he can't help himself.

He's going to say, we're going to win championships here.

And I said it with an S.

How about you just go singular?

The franchise has zero championships.

You didn't even make the fucking play-in tournament.

How about you just go P at the end?

And how about you just say, you know what?

We're going to try our damnedest to win a championship.

No, we're going to win championships plural.

Awesome.

I hope you do.

I hope you do.

Okay, Bucks.

Here's what I would, here's some of the things I would try.

Why are we panicking about Miles Turner picking pop three-pointers?

He's a very good shooter.

He's a good shooting center.

I don't think he wants to take 12 in a game.

So no matter who's on him, whether it's Brooke Lopez,

or if I move Brooke Lopez to Siakam

or Ness Smith, or Neese Smith, rather, which they've done, whoever it is, drop back, contain Tyrese Halliburton on the pick and roll, force him to kick it back to Miles Turner, and yeah, try to get out there and contest.

I'm not going to send a third guy flying at Miles Turner and unlock the Pacers' passing game, which is exactly what they want.

I'm at least going to mix this in.

I'm going to mix in, hey, Take a contestant pick and pop three.

Or, what are you going to hand it off over here to Andrew Nemart?

Cool.

Like, do that instead.

Like, I don't care.

I'm not putting myself in rotation.

I'm going under on Andrew Nem hard picks.

I'm not going over.

I'm going under.

And I'm just not going to get myself in rotation so readily.

I'm definitely not going to switch everything all the time.

Sure, mix it in here.

They're mixing his own here or there.

And, you know, we'll see.

They can play around with, again, who Lopez guards, but I just, those are just a couple.

A couple of things.

Throw in a trap every once in a while.

You got to mix up your defenses because if you play the same defense over and over against Indiana, no matter what it is, and especially if if it's switching, they're going to roast you.

I don't even care who Milwaukee plays.

Like, none of these dudes off the bench is any kind of like silver bullet.

Gary Trent Jr., he's guarding Halliburton.

He's got no shot on Halliburton.

He's a good defensive player.

Fine.

On the ball against Tyrese Halliburton, it's just barbecue chicken.

So I don't know what the solution is, but it's not what they did.

And it's a big, big moment for the Bucs, obviously.

Any parting thoughts on

Bucs Pacers?

I love watching the Pacers, by the the way.

That's where I was going to go.

I think the Pacers deserve more credit than we've given them, not only this year, but last year.

Let's not forget they went pretty far last year.

I think that team still has a great identity as sort of a fast-paced, smart offense

that can spread the floor and score it and play really fast.

I think they put your defense in.

tough positions.

I think they deserve credit for creating those kinds of open threes and mismatches that are exposing this Bucs defense.

Tyrese Halliburton, I kind of left him for dead middle of the season.

Nope, he's good.

He's come back strong.

He was on my Olympia team.

I can't believe he was a must for me.

I don't know if he's going to make it, but he was a must for me.

So I love watching that team.

I think Rick Carlisle deserves a little more credit and conversation than he gets at building this group up.

But, you know, I think if they come out of the series, I think it's a really intriguing matchup with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

So I think that the Pacers deserve credit for being one of the more unique, more powerful offenses in the league

and getting through and potentially exposing this Bucs team for being as mediocre as it currently looks.

The Bucs have not had any stretch this year in which they sustainably were like a very good team.

They had stretches where they were a good team, but there was never a stretch you could point to saying, oh, if they just bottle that 10-game stretch, that's a team that can win two playoff rounds.

It's never happened.

That's why I picked the Pacers in this series.

Dame, no Dame, whatever.

We'll see, though.

Like, if Dame comes back and gets his wind, it's a different story.

To wit, Giannis as ball screener has only set 26 picks through two games.

That's probably not enough because it's their best offense.

1.3 points per possession directly out of those plays.

So when Giannis or the ball handler shoots or one pass away, 1.5 points per possession total.

More Dame, Giannis, pick and roll.

A couple other notes on this one.

Indiana has 16 turnovers in two games.

I think Milwaukee was dead last at forcing turnovers in the regular season.

That's partly their personnel.

They're old and slow.

It's partly the way Doc likes to play.

Indiana is just going to get a shot every possession.

That's an 8% turnover rate.

That's basically nothing.

And just keep an eye on how they guard Giannis post-ups.

They're hard doubling Giannis in the posts.

And the Bucs showed some adjustments in game two.

They gave them a couple of touches at the nail where it's harder to double.

They changed the way their cutters go through and who's one pass away to make the reads easier.

But if all that's window dressing, if they can't find a way to even make Indiana like think on offense, they're dead in the water.

The Pacers will get a split in Milwaukee and wrap it in five.

Kurt Goldsbury, any parting thoughts on all these series before I bring in the great John Krasinski to talk about Wolves, Lakers?

I'm envious that you guys got to talk about Wolves and Lakers.

Kyle Kuzma is my parting thought.

With all due respect to Kyle Kuzma, Chris Middleton did not deserve to be jettisoned like this

for a player who essentially made Tony Snell look good in game one.

And come on, we need more from Kyle Kuzma to justify that transaction.

To me, it epitomizes where the Bucs are.

Thank you, Zach Lowe.

Thank you for having me on the Zach Lowe show.

Kurt Goldsberry, I know you're watching all these games.

I know you're taking notes and grinding, and just it's a pleasure to talk to you.

I love the NBA hat.

I like the whiteboard in the background.

It's great to be on the same team.

Again, I'll talk to you soon, buddy.

This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26, a favorite of my sons and me.

All right, quick break.

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I've been playing video basketball games.

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Ball over everything.

All right, Wolves Lakers time, baby.

Battle of the Lakers franchise, battle of George Mikin, all of it.

I'm so excited that John Krasinski from The Athletic is here.

How are you, buddy?

I'm doing great, man.

Great to be on the new version of the great show.

Let's do this, man.

Such a wonderful guy.

Love hanging out with you.

You know, when I went to Minnesota on guys trip number one, post getting laid off, went to a Wolves game.

We went out for some drinks after the game.

We met for lunch the day after.

It was a wonderful time.

The drinks, the drink, what was the name of that bar?

Lions pub yeah

we had a memorable couple memorable experiences at the lions pub we did do that that's for sure

one one wolves lakers uh wolves roll game one lakers kind of rolled game two very low scoring game strange series uh there's always a series or two where you get to game three even game four and you're like i still don't quite have a feel for this one i know what it's really about what's been your big picture takeaway just like is there an i mean minnesota's plus 13 for the series?

Who cares?

Really?

It's been a slow, ugly, whatever series.

Have you had a big takeaway through two games?

Yeah, I mean, you're right.

It's been hard to get a handle on it.

What I've looked at in the first two games is: if

the Lakers are not going to score 100 in the game, the Wolves are going to win the series.

Like, I think that's where they want to live.

But the big question is going to be, for me, on the Wolves side of things, is can they keep their composure enough against Luca and LeBron to stay in these games and not let them get away?

I thought that actually game two was pretty impressive for the wolves to come back the way that they did.

And they really played poorly offensively.

And so, if they can find a way to just, you know, they don't have to shoot the lights out like they did in game one, but they just have to be more composed, more organized than they were in game two.

And they should be in good shape.

But man, when you are facing LeBron and Iluka in a series, it is a torture chamber.

And so I don't know what's going to happen in the series right now, but I do think that the Wolves feel confident with how they've played defensively out of these first two games that they'll be okay here.

Yeah.

I mean, I think you said it organized was the key word you just said.

I picked the Lakers in seven, and I picked that because I called it the haywire factor.

I just didn't have faith in the Wolves to not go haywire like four times for three minute stretches at critical times in the series or even non-critical.

It could be a first, they went haywire in the first quarter of game two, and it cost them the game.

I at least know the Lakers, for the most part, are not going to go haywire because they have those two all-time geniuses running their offense.

To me, the story of game two was the Wolves just completely lost the plot on offense.

And like, you know what the Lakers are going to do.

They're going to switch a lot.

You can get pretty much any matchup you want.

Now, I thought the Lakers were smarter in game two about not switching all the time.

And if they saw, like, there was a Randall Alexander Walker pick and roll, and the goal was to get, I think, Gabe Vincent switched on to Randall.

Alexander Walker slipped the screen

and the Lakers were like, we're not actually going to switch this one.

We're going to read this correctly and not give you the mismatch.

Thought their help was a little better.

Whatever.

You know what the bread and butter is going to be.

And instead of going at Luca and instead of going at Austin Reeves, there was like Randall attacking Hachimura, Randall attacking LeBron.

And he got a lot of stuff out of that.

Jaden McDaniels going one-on-one against Austin Reeves.

That's the right guy to go at, wrong guy to do it.

Just too much of like letting Luca off the hook, letting Reeves off the hook, not thinking just thoughtless basketball, which very much surprised me because in game one, they played the opposite.

Did you talk to anyone about that?

Like, why did that happen?

Yeah, it was a big conversation point after the game.

I thought Anthony Edwards had a very interesting answer about it.

He said that he felt what he was seeing in front of him was the Lakers going to almost a pseudo-zone where

he would see things right in front of him and then they would shift into a little bit of a zone.

And what we have seen from the Timberwolves this season is zone defense is death.

We saw it in the Milwaukee game.

They gave up a 24-point lead in the fourth quarter because the Bucks were.

Can we stop and talk about that game?

Please, please.

It was a disaster of epic proportions.

If people have not seen that game, and it's a random regular season game, could have been extremely costly to Minnesota.

They're lucky it was not.

They were down by Milwaukee was down by 24 points, I think, in the fourth quarter.

In the fourth quarter, in the fourth quarter, 10 minutes ago.

And went to a zone.

And the entire league, everybody in the Western Conference in Minnesota's bracket, everyone in the Western Conference player should have seen that game and put zone.

in their scattering report because this is not an exaggeration, John.

I have never seen a team play worse against the zone in the NBA than the way if you and I were on the court, we could not have done worse.

They were just like throwing the ball to the other.

It was unbelievable.

Like, you were you at that game?

That was a game.

Yes, I was there.

Yep.

It was, it was, it was, it was inexplicable to me.

It was a circus of like I have never seen either.

I had this 21st season on the beat.

And you know, Zach, I've seen some really bad basketball teams in Minnesota over the years.

And that was as bad as I have ever seen any team play for any extended stretch.

And

so I do think that is a little bit of a concern for the Wolves in this series in terms of if they're seeing a little zone and don't know what to do with it.

Mike Conley does not have a great matchup in this series.

And so his minutes are limited and his production is limited.

And when he is not a factor offensively, you said it, Zach.

The Wolves def or the the wolves' offense becomes mindless

in a way.

And if they hit a bunch of threes, if Ant is getting downhill, it can work.

But that is the big

just Achilles' heel for them is if you make them think through

a stretch of offensive game, it usually goes poorly for the wolves.

And so that's what we saw in game two is you just saw them not be able to get a handle on where they were supposed to go, how they were supposed to move, and it resulted in awful shots awful shot selection and letting a game go that they very easily could have won you hold the team to 94 points on the road you should win that game and and they just they were never really in it

i don't understand why it takes so much thought

and high level complexity to be like where's luca just just attack luca just or reefs like the lakers or reeves the or gabe vinson but like nas reed is being guarded by Gabe Vincent.

Maybe give him a couple touches.

Like it's not that hard.

Now, I understand the Lakers, to your point.

Their help was, I think, a little bit like a step further into the paint than it was in game one, particularly when there was a non-shooter on the floor.

We'll get to that.

Like Terren Shannon came in and LeBron's like, I'm just not guarding Terren Shannon Jr.

We're just going to zone up off him completely.

The Gobert thing we'll talk about in a minute.

And I thought Minnesota had less off-ball movement around that stuff to

confuse the help, like less flare screens, fewer cuts, fewer confusion, all that stuff.

But like, it's still not that complicated to just find the right guy, to start by finding the right guy to attack the right guy.

And they didn't even do that.

But the Lakers, to their credit, they're a smart, connected defense, even when they're small.

And that's the thing.

Like, if you just get by the first layer of defense, Hayes is going to play 10 minutes.

The other 38 minutes, there's no shot blocker there.

If you even count Hayes as a shot blocker, he's a goaltender.

How about that goaltend?

it was incredible

with it he was absolutely furious he couldn't believe the call it's the most obvious goaltend i've ever seen not a great haze haze game there's no rim protection back there and i just don't understand why like i get what you're saying the lakers made it complicated they made they changed coverages they they scrunched in and scrunched out they rotate on a string they make you think but step one is just the right guy should attack the right guy and that's the part like i don't get why that's so hard i'm sure chris finch in the huddles is saying this stuff i just don't understand why it's that hard to execute at least that part.

Yeah, and I think that especially, Zach, in

the most disappointing thing to the Timberwolves was they took 25 threes in the game.

Now, they didn't shoot well at the start, but what they needed to do was move the ball a little bit and keep shooting threes like they do.

They're one of the best three-point shooting teams in the entire league.

And so, to not go away from that,

it looked like they all just wanted to attack to the middle of the zone and do something that was beyond their capabilities.

And so I think they got into a mental game of, okay, we have to take this control back some other way when they just make the easy play.

And they just did not do that over and over again, passed up three-pointers,

you know,

passed up the easy matchups that were out there and made it harder on themselves.

And that's why they were just, you know, what they shoot.

Yeah, 38%, 20% from three.

It was grueling to watch.

I'm going to read you some numbers.

You ready?

Please lay it to you.

Second spectrum tracking numbers.

This is Luca picking rolls

with Gobert as the guy guarding the screener.

Let's go.

Okay, because Gobert is getting flambayed, flambayed,

lambasted.

Did I just make up a word?

I think he did.

I think he did.

Because everyone sees it, right?

Everyone sees it.

It's very visible when a ball handler gets Gobert and Golbert is a little stilted.

He's a big dude, man.

Like those big dudes, it's a lot of limbs to move around.

It doesn't always look great.

And, you know, you get roasted on a crossover, commit a foul, step back three.

Like, it's very visible.

It's very obvious.

And so it's the talking point

after game two.

Oh, four-time defensive player of the year

out of his comfort zone.

Boy, oh, boys, here we go again.

Why is he this generational defender if he can't match up?

Here are the numbers.

Game one, Luka Doncic against Rudy Gobert, 15 picks,

0.615 points per possession out of those picks directly, 0.77 points per possession overall.

That is

no, that's horrible.

That's not good, is it?

Game two, 23 picks, 0.56 0.56 points per possession directly out of the game.

That doesn't sound good.

0.632 points per possession overall.

If you had that points per possession for a full game, for a full season, you're a G-League team.

You're a college team.

Now,

very small sample.

Those numbers are somewhat deflated by spot-up shooters two passes away,

missing wide open threes that it creates.

You saw in game two.

The Wolves are concerned enough that they're trying to switch Gobert out of that pick and roll while his man is on the way to screen.

You'll see him point someone else get there.

So I'm not saying he's been great.

I'm not saying it's not an issue.

Luca has been, I've been actually very impressed with Luca's level of decisiveness.

When he gets Gobert on him, he's not pulling the ball out and dancing and taking a million step back threes.

He'll do one jab, step back Gobert, lean back like he's going to shoot.

And the minute he stands you up, he's blowing by you and drawing a foul.

He's been very good about that.

I'm just saying the numbers are the numbers.

There's no argument that Gobert's defense and all the stops, all the times there was a steal he had, all the times where he forces a pass out and the defense isn't compromised.

People just don't notice it because they want to notice the bloopers, basically.

The numbers are what they are.

This has not been a problem.

In fact, I will posit this.

If Gobert is a problem in this series, it's on offense where he's a problem.

And he's a problem because the Lakers are going to switch everything.

They're going to, Minnesota is going to pick their matchup.

The Lakers are going to zone up, and it's much easier to zone up when one guy is sitting in the dunker spot.

And the guy who just screened for Ant, let's say it's Jada McDaniels, is rolling towards that big guy in the dunker spot, and everything's clogged up versus when it's Randall and Reed.

And Randall, at least, is going to stand on the perimeter.

And everyone is going to stand on the perimeter.

And the Reeds are much easier.

And if you look at some of Randall's drives that went haywire or Edwards' drives that went haywire, like there's one around nine minutes of the third quarter, you can freeze the screen there.

Gobert's in the game.

McDaniels is rolling down the lane.

There's nowhere for him to go.

I think Gobert's defense has been fine, more than fine.

I think if there's something to watch, it's how is he impacting their spacing on offense just because of the way the Lakers are defending?

That's my hot take, John Krasinski.

It's not even that hot.

It's not a hot take.

I'm giving you a clap for it because it

absolutely drives me crazy.

There was one play in game two where Luca got Rudy in the ISO, made a really creative, crafty move, comes down to the baseline, hits an unbelievable shot.

It was really, really fun.

It was really impressive.

And social media lights up.

Oh, he caught a body.

Oh, da-da-da-da.

But he was one for four against Rudy in that game.

And I honestly thought, Zach, that in the fourth quarter, in the second half, one of the reasons that the Wolves were were able to cut into that lead is because Luca did seem kind of hell-bent on, I'm going to embarrass this dude.

Like, I'm going to put him in one-on-one.

I'm going to cross him over, I'm going to step back, I'm going to go by him, and I am going to put this guy on the Sports Center top 10.

And, and it really kind of bogged down the Laker offense for a little while.

And so, I do think that Rudy has done a really good job in that matchup.

And for

anyone to say otherwise, because Luca gets him once or twice, I mean, that's just disingenuous.

It's ridiculous.

You are 100% correct on the offensive side of things.

And I will say this on Rudya defensively.

He's got to grab more rebounds, man.

There's been a few times it's just, they've glanced off his fingers.

He hasn't been able to get his hands on it and end the possession.

He's just got to do a better job there.

But one-on-one against Luca, he's been fine.

And

offensively, one of the reasons I was optimistic about the Timberwolves going into this series is in the last month or so leading into the playoffs, they had really done a good job with Rudy, getting him involved.

Julius Randle, little drop lobs to him.

Even Ant was finding him a little bit more.

And Rudy was consistently 15, 17, 19 points, like really being a factor.

Now he's playing terrible defenses, but you thought that maybe they could build on that.

And they haven't done that in the first two games.

And so if he is going to be out there, if you're not just going to go with the Nas Randall front court, he does have to be more of a factor.

He has to catch the ball cleaner.

They have to find little lobs out of the dunker for him.

He's got to get on the offensive glass better and create more second chances.

That's the way that you hurt the Lakers by going big with Rudy.

And he has not done enough of that so far in these first two games.

It's funny you mentioned the Randall passes to him and and the Ant passes to him because, you know, I remember joking midway through the season, like you could have made a really fun compilation of Gobert calling for the ball wide open and Randall not passing to him.

Yes.

And part of it is because those are tricky passes to make, right?

They're thread the needle, lobs, whatever.

And part of it is like,

I bet if you got them honestly, you know, in a moment of honesty, Ant, Randall, I don't think they trust him to do enough with the ball.

I think they intentionally are like, I don't think I want to pass to you right now.

It's like, it's like watching Kawhi and Ben Simmons right now.

You can see Kawhi be like, yeah, they're loading off you.

I think I'm just going to hold on to this one for now, buddy.

Okay, can you just get out of the way?

And they did involve him more as the season, particularly the last two, three weeks.

But you mentioned offensive rebound.

If the Lakers are going to go small, the Wolves have to win that.

And we should mention that the entire Wolves team was in foul trouble in game two.

And I thought the DiVincenzo foul trouble and Reed foul trouble was a big deal.

One of the things I like about DiVincenzo in this matchup is they play faster when he's on the floor.

And I think

talk about one way to beat a complex zone of pretty big guys that know how to help.

Just get out ahead of it.

And I thought when DiVincenzo was in the game, they did a good job of just like, we're going to fly up the floor and just see what happens.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that it is no coincidence that the Wolves were terrible offensively in game two, and Nas Reed and Dante DiVincenzo were both in foul trouble early because

what we have seen from this Wolves team all season long has been they generally start slow.

They did in game one.

They were down seven in the first quarter.

Game one, they think they had 21 points in the first quarter.

That starting group typically does not play well offensively at the start of games and digs themselves a hole.

When the Wolves start to get control of the game is when they go to the bench and DiVincenzo and Reed and Nikhil Alexander Walker all step in and the ball flies around and they shoot threes, and they move, and they get out in transition.

And when Reed went out early, and when DiVincenzo went out early, it took way too really of their most important offensive players.

And so then it became a lot more of Julius Randle, ISO, you know, which he did.

He did well.

I'll give him credit.

Against my Randall rule is you don't get to my Randall rule, the Randall rule on this podcast is: Julius,

you only get to attack when you get a mismatch.

And he violated it over and over again in game two.

And he got stuff against Rui and LeBron.

Like he came to play and he did his job.

Yeah, he played really well.

Here's the thing about that, though, too, Zach, is he did his job.

And I think he recognized, hey, we got no other options.

So I'm going to do this.

I'm going to be a little more assertive.

But when we have seen the wolves at their worst is when it's Ant heavy ISO, it's Julius heavy ISO, and everyone stops and just watches.

And when they are at their best is when the ball is moving, when it's driving kick.

And there was just a lot less of that because it was Randall going to work.

And so it did sort of work for them because they shaved a 22-point deficit down to nine in the fourth quarter.

But it also was really, it's hard to sustain that level of offense and really get yourself on any

extended run when you're kind of going about it that way.

So I think if I'm the Lakers, I want to invite that style of offense from the Timberwolves.

And if I'm the Wolves, I want to avoid that.

So game three will be important to re-establish some kind of flow, some kind of ball movement, drive and kick and get open threes and let them fly.

And that's just what was not happening in game two.

In part, because I will say this, Zach, Luca and LeBron were both just so much more active with their feet defensively.

And I think that was, you know, they were very physical.

They got their hands on people and they did all that, but they moved their feet a lot better and just made it harder for the Wolves to generate some of that.

Yeah, I mean, they played super hard.

LeBron has been awesome on defense for the last 40, 50 games of the season.

Offensively, does not look great.

Had a bad game one, eight of 19 in game two.

Hasn't been able to find a bully ball groove.

I think they should hunt Conley more than they have.

Like when Conley's on the floor, they're not going at him enough.

I expect that to change a little bit.

but if lebron doesn't play better

like reeves missed great shots in game two but all six of his threes he missed they were all good shots for the maybe five of them were good shots i i don't worry about reeves he's going to give you what he gives you as the third guy if lebron doesn't play better i think minnesota is in good shape in this series but i honestly like i have no clue what's coming next to this i have no feel for this series at all it's been a very strange um it's been a very strange two games you you mentioned um

i just think if i'm the the Wolves, I want to speed the series up.

I want to run, run, run.

And like, there was one play where they got to stop.

I can't remember when it was.

And DiVincenzo just flew up the floor and hit it ahead to Ant.

And Ant attacked.

I think Randall was in the post and Ant just like dribbled around.

Like they tried to front Randall and Ant immediately was just like, I'm going around you.

I'm going around both of you and laid the ball up and in.

And it was just before the defense could get set.

And DiVincenzo made the play and Ant continued to play.

How about that Ant dunk, by the way, way, on Jackson Hayes?

That was like

that was a leap out of your chair dunk.

Unbelievable.

Two hands and got fouled, didn't get called, but like the force that he put, you know, I've seen every day Ant dunk that in his career, and he has had some unbelievable one.

That's right up near the top.

It was in traffic, it was against the big.

It was two hands right on his head.

What are the best ones?

There's the John Collins one, John Collins.

There's the

Watanabe.

Yeah.

The Watanabe one.

He had one in Phoenix in the Phoenix series that kind of ended the Suns in the fourth quarter as they were burying them.

He's had, you know, and he just had one towards the end of the season.

Was it Utah or Brooklyn?

I can't remember, but

just coming out of nowhere and throwing down as much as he does.

Yeah.

So he, I mean, he scrapes his knuckles on the ceiling like he he can and he throws it down.

What did he say?

What What did he get fined for?

What did he say?

He was talking to a fan,

and the fan was chirping at Rudy.

And Rudy and Aunt said, Rudy got 200 million.

And Rudy said, no, actually, I have 300 million.

He goes, Rudy has 300 million.

And I have a bigger blank than you.

And grabbed his crotch as he, as he walked away.

So

the first part was fine.

The second part probably don't need to be.

You know what?

Yeah, there are children.

Won't someone think of the children.

I sound like Reverend Lovejoy's wife on The Simpsons.

Won't someone please think of the children?

However, one of my rules, minus something that obviously crosses a line, right?

Minus something that's, that's, we all, we all know where those lines are.

If a fan in like the first three rows is just relentlessly going at you and making it personal, I think you should have carte blanche up to those lines to fire back at them.

It's my step.

I have an I have a corollary to that.

I call it the Stephen Jackson rule.

In the 2012 Western Conference finals, Stephen Jackson made a corner three.

He was playing for the Spurs and he made it right in front of the Thunderbench.

And he turned around and he yapped to the Thunderbench and he got teed up for it.

And he did it because they were all telling him, you can't shoot.

It's a brick, whatever.

You should have Carpe Blanche to be able to talk to the other bench.

I don't care what you say.

So if these fans are going, I don't know.

Has he been fined a million dollars combined this year?

How many are we up to?

$380,000, Sach.

$380,000.

He doesn't care.

No, he cares not at all.

I do think what the league is trying to do is say, Ant, man, you are the next guy.

Like, you know, LeBron and Steph and KD are only going to be here for a little longer.

We need you to be right up there with Tatum, right up there with Luko, right up there with a few of the other guys to take the mantle.

And so this was, I think, more of a...

you know, kind of a career achievement award find than like for this specific thing here.

And so I think that's, that's, was the, the crackdown.

But I agree with you, Zach.

Like, did I, was I offended by that?

No, I wasn't.

I've seen and heard way worse than that.

But I think this is the league trying to make a statement and rein him in.

Hey, at least it's a career achievement fine and not like, you know, like, I have no empathy for the guys who yap at the refs all the time.

Like Luca, for instance.

Like Luca, when he got ejected from that game, who was that?

In Oklahoma City, right?

Was that in Oklahoma City?

That was ridiculous because he was talking to a fan and not the ref.

The ref is obviously going to think you're talking to him because you talk to him all the time.

Draymond getting, quote, unfavorable treatment from the role.

First of all, he doesn't because Draymond cannot possibly get ejected.

He could clothesline someone and not get ejected.

You could hit someone with a DDT and not get ejected.

I guess not.

I guess he did get suspended for hitting people

last year, but you know what I mean.

You know, just like John John Morant getting fined for the gestures.

Like, yeah, no, yeah, that's, you brought that one on yourself.

Okay, big picture, last question.

I'm most curious about this game three, maybe of all series other than Nuggets Clippers tonight.

And part of the reason is the series feels like a black box to me still.

But I mean,

it's easy to get into the weeds and we've gotten into the weeds.

Like, there's a path to the conference finals here for these teams.

They're in the better side of the bracket.

The winner will get either the Rockets who are untested or the Warriors and we'll see what the Jimmy Butler's MRI shows, but it's not like they're an unbeatable juggernaut despite their record with Butler and Curry.

And Minnesota is kind of this fun, like this funky team where they made this huge towns trade before the season.

They kind of have an up and down and they're like three games over 500, 60 games into the season.

They finish super strong and barely get out of the play-in.

Like the Warriors do them a favor by dropping a couple games.

They get out of the play-in,

and

they don't feel like a contender because of the up-and-down nature of their season, because of the trade, because they're the sixth seed.

But they're a pretty goddamn good team, and there's a pathway for them to get it together and get pretty far in the playoffs to get as far as they did last year.

Like, I

like

it's it the stakes are

big in these games coming up in Minnesota, 100%.

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, that was look, I understand, I do why so many people picked the Lakers.

You have Luca, you have LeBron, you have all this, but like, I really do think a lot of people who are Lakers in five, you know, even Lakers in six, were looking, not looking at the Wolves' numbers.

You know, 17 and 4 down the stretch, top 10 offense, top 10 defense, net rating in the top five.

All of that stuff tells you that there is talent here if it's harnessed and plays the right way.

My concern right now for them, Zach, is they typically have not been the greatest team at home.

Like you think, oh, they split on the road.

You go home.

Target center is going to be on fire.

And believe me, Target Center is going to be ridiculous on Friday night.

Like it's going to be unboxed.

You know, people thought crypto was loud.

Nah, wait until you get there for this for the Lakers.

It's going to be insane.

But they were last year after the Phoenix series, they were one in five at home in the playoffs.

They have had some of their ugliest performances at home this season, losing to the Wizards, losing to a few other teams at home.

So

they have to figure out something to get playing better there.

But if they do, it's right there for them.

They're deeper than the Lakers.

They have the ability to win this series and not only this series, but next series as well.

All of it is right there for them, but they have to get out of their own way to do that.

And

that's going to be the key.

Composure, execution, organization.

If they do that, they have the pieces to make this big run.

But we do.

We kind of have to see it happen first before you really believe that, yeah, this is actually happening.

They're also facing a legit, very good team with incredible top end talent who made some good adjustments in game two, who ran a little bit more of their sort of pet sets where the three stars cooperate and screen for each other.

And they got some good openings that way.

LeBron got a three.

LeBron got a long two.

Finney Smith got a backcut that led somewhere.

All through them cooperating with each other simultaneous action on the ball, off the ball, lean into that more.

But yeah, it's a big, high stakes, very strange series.

I'm excited for game three.

John Krasinski of the Athletic, John Krasinski show, his podcast.

I've said it before,

there is no better beat writer in the NBA than you.

It's an honor to have you on.

It's great to see you.

Who knows?

Maybe in six weeks, we'll be back at the Lions, the Lions, what?

Lions Pub.

The Lions Pub.

Anytime, man.

I'm just happy you're back.

The league is better with you back here, Zach.

And

I'll buy next time we go to the Lions Pub.

So come on in.

Oh, that's a good invitation.

John Krasinski, everybody.

Thank you, sir.

All right, that's it for today.

Enjoy the games over the weekend.

We'll be back first thing in the morning Monday to recap what promises to be another crazy NBA weekend full of high-stakes games.

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